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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 31 post(s) |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
972
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:21:00 -
[391] - Quote
I am sure most Eve players are, as I am, against botting.
Unless of course, the botter gives me the illegal isk he made, in which case it is obvious that the CCP anti-botting crew have got it all wrong, (the alleged botter once helped an old lady across a road, so he must be a decent chap) therefore I should be allowed to keep the illegal isk.
Any rational explanation provided by CCP as to why the illegal isk was removed from the game ie - me, shall be ignored. This is not a signature. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1347
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:21:00 -
[392] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Beckie DeLey wrote:We need a bit more drama in here.
So when will Kelduum resign from CSM? I mean, a CSM chairman that has been voted for by thousands of players has been kicked for less, so why not? There should be calls for his removal. He is not fit to hold office after this nonsense. He thinks his Corp is above others. He is chasing around dirty isk causing a scene and making serious allegations against CCP because his corp couldn't keep a donation from a character that was just suspended for BOTTING!?!?! He should publicly apologize or he should go. This bears repeating. -Liang There, i just repeated it.
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Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
2210
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:22:00 -
[393] - Quote
Lol... All this drama... Just EUni being bad as usual... |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
319
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:28:00 -
[394] - Quote
From what I've seen, CCP has done a great job here and even took the time to answer and comment, things that they usually refuse to do. So we would better demonstrate that, as a community, we are able to receive feedback without instantly flamming eachothers or trying to create confusion on false facts.
The dude has made hundreds of billions by manipulating the market (which is in itself legal and called "trade" - although, like in real life, I believe that this profession is a nuisance but that's another debate-), and he did it using illegal tools that are making other trader's life very hard. No need to complain about that. The isk he made has been confiscated, which is again perfectly legit.
My questions here are :
1- Did this guy started botting recently ?
2- If not, why did this wait so long before being detected or actions being taken ?
3- Why, in the first place, did he kept his isks after being banned ?
PS : Fun fact, micro-trading (or "real life botting") is commonly used in reality. It made me laugh that such behaviour is only denigrated in a virtual world. G££ <= Me |
baltec1
Bat Country
5164
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:28:00 -
[395] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Sariah Kion wrote:Beckie DeLey wrote:We need a bit more drama in here.
So when will Kelduum resign from CSM? I mean, a CSM chairman that has been voted for by thousands of players has been kicked for less, so why not? There should be calls for his removal. He is not fit to hold office after this nonsense. He thinks his Corp is above others. He is chasing around dirty isk causing a scene and making serious allegations against CCP because his corp couldn't keep a donation from a character that was just suspended for BOTTING!?!?! He should publicly apologize or he should go. This bears repeating. -Liang There, i just repeated it. Its happened again. |
Shun Makoto
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
3
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:29:00 -
[396] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:Wescro wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:
1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute. 2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business. 3) The only authority higher than the Director of Security for these complaints is the Executive Producer and then the CEO. This is a higher level of escalation than the Customer Service arm and IA automatically looks at our work. I'm not sure why we feel we should be able to escalate higher than the highest reasonable authority but the fact is that this team operates with significant oversight. We believe the issue here to be more that this particular CSM feels he isn't in the loop, something which is quite frankly the only proper way to do business in a unit that handles secrets.
Frankly we're a bit disturbed by the allegations made here given that the person in question waited until they exhausted every resource possible prior to posting this then lamented the lack of an escalation path. Not getting the answer you like isn't a lack of an escalation path and never will be.
Thank you for responding substantively instead of closing the thread. I'm sure everyone here wants to see the right thing done. In this situation it's your word against the players. Is there anyway the playerbase can be given assurance that the process is not arbitrary besides simply asking us to have faith in CCP? I believe sunshine is the best disinfectant when it can be used. Aside from showing you logs which include private communications and trade secrets I'm not sure how this could be done. This is why we're in this position in the first place. It's easy to insinuate misconduct when you know we're in a position where we can't put our stuff on the table. It's also petty.
I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it. Former 22nd Black Rise Defensive Unit Member |
Callie Cross
Tax Code
2
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:30:00 -
[397] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Callie Cross wrote:Jenn aSide wrote:
Sometimes, things are just tough, and "receiving stolen goods" ius a real life crime in my places. Sorry, it might not be your fault, you might not know the stuff was stolen, them's the breaks.
In this case, all CCP had to do was say "this isk is from botting, sorry". Since they did that, case closed.
Since you want to bring "IRL" into it. Pretty sure this is real life however. If a family member wills you $1 million USD on death, and the government discovers that $300k was earned illegally. They don't take $1 million, they take the illegally earned portion. If you read the OP, you will see this is what Kelduum was asking about. He asked if all had to be taken. lol, you're wrong about that, and should google the words "Asset Forfeiture". It's not just "proceeds" that are taken it's also "funds, capital or property used to facilitate the crime" IRL the government would make the case that ALL of it was part of a criminal enterprise and impound the entire 1 mil USD. Asset Forfeiture law is a class every peace officer in my state has to take every 2 years.
Damn. I underestimated their sneakiness. |
baltec1
Bat Country
5164
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:31:00 -
[398] - Quote
1- CCP will not comment
2- CCP will not comment
3- Accidents |
digi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:32:00 -
[399] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:
I've worked on internal investigations for over a decade. I have never reported to anyone more senior than a CIO. Legal and HR typically owned the investigations. I must not understand corporate structure.
I, too, have performed this function for over a decade and my experience in corp structures is exactly the same. CIO typically owns it and legal/HR/compliance and in my past life, police department will own the investigations.
We only made 4 billion a year but they probably know nothing of corporate structure compared to some random Eve player.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
2971
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:35:00 -
[400] - Quote
Shun Makoto wrote: I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.
You specifically do not need this information.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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baltec1
Bat Country
5164
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:35:00 -
[401] - Quote
Shun Makoto wrote:
I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.
Yes lets tell the botting community how CCP are catching them. Nice try shady character. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
4452
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:38:00 -
[402] - Quote
Shun Makoto wrote: I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.
he was botting by using macros to enable him to update market orders at a pace not achievable by a human being (sustained 2s per change over 10-20 minutes) |
Heimdallofasgard
Apex Overplayed Coalition Fatal Ascension
408
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:41:00 -
[403] - Quote
To be honest this sounds like a combination of :
1. Kelduum getting dollar signs in his eyes at the possibility of becoming space rich 2. Using his position as a CSM member as a pedestal to try get his own way. Which quite frankly I think is an abuse of the trust of people who voted for him. Kick Heim... MATE |
Yvsyvs
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:42:00 -
[404] - Quote
Katran Luftschreck wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. So pretty much any South Korean Statcraft player is doomed to face false charges and banning, then. Lovely.
Exactly this! I have no clue if this guy was really boting, but who decides what is humanly possible?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVEvwNbeK6I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-ofosFtuqs, |
Dante Uisen
Push button receive bacon
20
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:43:00 -
[405] - Quote
Shun Makoto wrote:I think we should be told exactly how he was botting, so we know not to do the same and get punished for it. Because if there's some truth to the story "John" didn't know he was botting, and if that's true it would be nice for others to know about this to avoid it.
He was able to modify 30 orders a minute, and was doing so each 10-20 minutes, i think we know all we need to know. |
Dante Uisen
Push button receive bacon
20
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:45:00 -
[406] - Quote
Yvsyvs wrote:Exactly this! I have no clue if this guy was really boting, but who decides what is humanly possible?
You can't modify 30 orders in one minute, without the process being automated. |
Darth Khasei
Wavestar Business Ventures Inc.
58
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:45:00 -
[407] - Quote
Respect.
With respect ALL bots must die period end of discussion. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
2976
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:45:00 -
[408] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:To be honest this sounds like a combination of :
1. Kelduum getting dollar signs in his eyes at the possibility of becoming space rich 2. Using his position as a CSM member as a pedestal to try get his own way. Which quite frankly I think is an abuse of the trust of people who voted for him.
I think it goes a bit deeper than that. The tone of the OP on the E-Uni forums was obviously geared towards making this a personal attack from CCP on E-Uni. IMO he implicitly endorsed botting and attempted to hold (hundreds of?) noob accounts over CCP's head to force them to give him the ISK. It's made worse by the fact that he knew all of this beforehand.
And let's go back to what Sreegs said:
CCP Sreegs wrote:At what level is complete fabrication designed specifically to cause my team and my company's reputation harm acceptable?
Yes, Kelduum specifically and willfully crossed this line.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
2976
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:46:00 -
[409] - Quote
Yvsyvs wrote:Katran Luftschreck wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote:That is the problem right there. He was using tools which allowed him to rapidly perform actions faster than he otherwise would have been able to on his own. This is covered in the EULA. So pretty much any South Korean Statcraft player is doomed to face false charges and banning, then. Lovely. Exactly this! I have no clue if this guy was really boting, but who decides what is humanly possible? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVEvwNbeK6Ihttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-ofosFtuqs,
UI lag decides.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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digi
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
170
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:47:00 -
[410] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I think it goes a bit deeper than that. The tone of the OP on the E-Uni forums was obviously geared towards making this a personal attack from CCP on E-Uni. IMO he implicitly endorsed botting and attempted to hold (hundreds of?) noob accounts over CCP's head to force them to give him the ISK. It's made worse by the fact that he knew all of this beforehand. And let's go back to what Sreegs said: CCP Sreegs wrote:At what level is complete fabrication designed specifically to cause my team and my company's reputation harm acceptable? Yes, Kelduum specifically and willfully crossed this line. -Liang
How much is the EVE character name of "John" worth to the group? |
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Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
8
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:47:00 -
[411] - Quote
Heimdallofasgard wrote:To be honest this sounds like a combination of :
1. Kelduum getting dollar signs in his eyes at the possibility of becoming space rich 2. Using his position as a CSM member as a pedestal to try get his own way. Which quite frankly I think is an abuse of the trust of people who voted for him.
He needs to be removed from the CSM.
He supports botting. He can verbally say he doesnt but words are worth just about nothing when compared to actions. His actions tell me that he supports botting in so far as he would go this far to keep a donation completely funded through botting. We dont need a CSM who has such a "self" oriented and twisted view of the rules that everyone has to live under.
The Eve player base deserves better. Eve University deserves better. |
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings V0RTEX.
3
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Posted - 2013.02.12 18:50:00 -
[412] - Quote
I'm fairly certain that there are nuances allowing the entire server to be taken down right now never to be put up again w/o legal repercussion. CCP has a right to be bold. So why not try treating them w/ some respect? We as a player-base are responsible for chauffeuring Eve into the next era, and we can only do that through good-willed collaboration. Threads like this will scare off prospective players. It makes it look like the game is failing, on its last leg or something. And it doesn't have to be. So many "veteran" players w/ there bots are screwing everything up for those of us who are just entering the game. I'm going to stick around, because I have faith in Eve and CCP. But I consider myself a stoic. Please, can we just agree this guy was botting and move on? Quit trying to stifle Eve's potential out of boredom. Sreegs, ilu! |
Jonah Gravenstein
Gordian Knot Holdings
5604
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 18:55:00 -
[413] - Quote
All I got from this thread is that someone got caught botting, CCP made a minor mistake and forgot to confiscate his isk so he transferred it to the ingame equivalent to a charity, CCP corrected their mistake and removed the ill gotten gains, the recipient of the isk asked why? and got all upset when they wouldn't tell him because it was none of his business.
While I disagree on CCP Sreegs stance on scraping the cache files, I applaud him on both his civil responses to the questioning of his teams integrity and the actions taken against the offender.
Bots are a scourge in many games, it's good to see a company taking the problem seriously and taking the appropriate actions when they need to.
Market bots are something that players can't do much about, sure we can use their programming against them and mess with their algorithms but ultimately it's down to CCP to sort them out as they rarely/never leave station. Mission and mining bots are something that we as players can do something about, we can make them untenable to use, by the removal of their ships via ingame mechanics, and then reporting them via the "report bot" function.
TL;DR Botter got caught botting, botter got temp banned, botter tried to hide his isk and then biomassed. Burn the bots and Eve becomes a better place.
I am Ohm of Borg, Resistance is Voltage/Current. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3811
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:01:00 -
[414] - Quote
Altrue wrote: PS : Fun fact, micro-trading (or "real life botting") is commonly used in reality. It made me laugh that such behaviour is only denigrated in a virtual world.
Fun fact, nobody cares because RL botters tend to lose money and fix themselves over time. Even "macro" institutional botting and high frequency trading are losing profitability.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Finde learth
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
29
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Posted - 2013.02.12 19:05:00 -
[415] - Quote
CCP Sreegs wrote:There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:
1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute. 2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.
Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?
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Sariah Kion
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
9
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Posted - 2013.02.12 19:06:00 -
[416] - Quote
Everyone can agree that Eve is a better place with just one less botter ,and all his illegal isk,disrupting and manipulating the game we all love.
Why then are we "ok" with a CSM member openly manipulating, arguing and accusing CCP of wrong doing just because he couldnt keep the isk rewards earned through a significant breech of the EULA and one of the biggest risks to fair game play in EVE?
This is the real story here. CCP caught a botter and punished them and confiscated their illegally earned isk. Thats what should be happening to botters. CCP should be getting a pat on the back for this. Instead, we have this witch hunt led by a CSM member.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3811
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Posted - 2013.02.12 19:06:00 -
[417] - Quote
Dan Leviathan wrote:I'm fairly certain that there are nuances allowing the entire server to be taken down right now never to be put up again w/o legal repercussion. CCP has a right to be bold. So why not try treating them w/ some respect? We as a player-base are responsible for chauffeuring Eve into the next era, and we can only do that through good-willed collaboration. Threads like this will scare off prospective players. It makes it look like the game is failing, on its last leg or something. And it doesn't have to be. So many "veteran" players w/ there bots are screwing everything up for those of us who are just entering the game. I'm going to stick around, because I have faith in Eve and CCP. But I consider myself a stoic. Please, can we just agree this guy was botting and move on? Quit trying to stifle Eve's potential out of boredom. Sreegs, ilu!
What worried me about this matter is that CCP caught a blatant moron. That is someone acting in a clearly, unmistakably non-human way. That's cool.
But what about the other, smarter market botters? I know they are officially counted at about 10 (ten) but it's more than enough to perma-spam thousands of market updates in an unfair way towards the other players.
Any chance we get some stronger bannage on them? Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Heimdallofasgard
Apex Overplayed Coalition Fatal Ascension
410
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Posted - 2013.02.12 19:06:00 -
[418] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Heimdallofasgard wrote:To be honest this sounds like a combination of :
1. Kelduum getting dollar signs in his eyes at the possibility of becoming space rich 2. Using his position as a CSM member as a pedestal to try get his own way. Which quite frankly I think is an abuse of the trust of people who voted for him. I think it goes a bit deeper than that. The tone of the OP on the E-Uni forums was obviously geared towards making this a personal attack from CCP on E-Uni. IMO he implicitly endorsed botting and attempted to hold (hundreds of?) noob accounts over CCP's head to force them to give him the ISK. It's made worse by the fact that he knew all of this beforehand. -Liang
There was a while during the beginning of 2012 iirc, where ccp had the spotlight on botting and mass bans etc... People were both jubilant and worried at the same time, and more aware of the consequences of botting.
I think it's only healthy for EVE that CCP raises awareness of the consequences of botting every couple of months, lest people grow complacent and start thinking it's okay and maybe thinking that they're not being watched.
I for one didn't realise that market scrubbing for places like eve central using evemon was frowned upon. I saw it more of just using an out of game tool like EFT or Dotlan. Now I know ccp's stance on it, I don't think I'll be doing it any more. For me it'd be interesting to hear CCPs opinion on market aggregators like EVE central just so I know what tools I can and can't use, because lord knows the market needs some love :( Kick Heim... MATE |
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings V0RTEX.
5
|
Posted - 2013.02.12 19:07:00 -
[419] - Quote
Finde learth wrote:CCP Sreegs wrote:There are a number of things wrong with the assertions being made in other forums, which is a topic I'm sure the author of these posts is familiar with because we discussed them prior to his rather selective reporting of the incident. Here's the facts as we need be concerned from an eve perspective:
1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute. 2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business.
Can you explain why remove all ISK because of a 14 days ban?
Can you explain how you are possibly this ignorant? |
Dan Leviathan
Legion of Lemmings V0RTEX.
5
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Posted - 2013.02.12 19:10:00 -
[420] - Quote
To all botters: Want to stretch your programming skills? Get on project euler. Heck, you can even solve the problems while playing Eve! I really don't understand botting. The only practical motif would be the gaining of $ in rl. Otherwise, you're just cheating yourself. Are you the same one's who used "gamesharks" to get all the pokemons or smth? Play within the games mechanics, it's not that difficult. |
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