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Latest in a long line of small gang PVP nerfs...

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Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 207	Posted - 2013.02.20 10:22:00 - [91] - Quote I love that you used honourable field of combat in context of amamake... the home of hot drops, smartbombing battleships and falcon alts
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Atrocitas 3122	Posted - 2013.02.20 10:24:00 - [92] - Quote So I take it that you are not interested in proving yourself correct? How about we get real with this and get Chribba to hold 5 billion ISK each? -Liang Ed: You know, putting your money where your mouth is and all that. Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 207	Posted - 2013.02.20 10:32:00 - [93] - Quote ^^ It wouldn't prove anything in regards to the fit - I've no pretensions that I'm anything but average if I'm being generous at solo PVP - far more at home in a guardian or triage carrier.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Atrocitas 3122	Posted - 2013.02.20 10:33:00 - [94] - Quote Alrighty then. I guess you're just not willing to defend your claims about the Cyclone and your honour. Just for the record, though: Heretics honor 1v1s. And your ass was grass. :) -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 207	Posted - 2013.02.20 10:38:00 - [95] - Quote Don't actually have a character that could do it anyhow - my min alt is entirely lacking missile skills and Rroff is primarily trained for gal/cal and capitals.
Liang Nuren Heretic Army Atrocitas 3123	Posted - 2013.02.20 10:40:00 - [96] - Quote Ah. Well, take it from someone who can actually fly the ships in question. They're really not the same - at all. The ability for one to fit dual neuts and the other not is just not the kind of issue you're making it out to be. The Cane is fine - no, really, I promise. -Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 207	Posted - 2013.02.20 10:44:00 - [97] - Quote Liang Nuren wrote: Ah. Well, take it from someone who can actually fly the ships in question. They're really not the same - at all. The ability for one to fit dual neuts and the other not is just not the kind of issue you're making it out to be. The Cane is fine - no, really, I promise. -Liang As I said it wasn't so much about the cane being fine or not, just confusing that the rhetoric that was used to justify changes to it is now relevant to the cyclone post patch when it couldn't be before the patch - which is just confusing.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 3980	Posted - 2013.02.20 11:31:00 - [98] - Quote Tah'ris Khlador wrote: As a side note, I like the suggestion of boosters having a signature bloom instead of being on grid. There needs to be an added stipulation that they cannot be in a POS to run their boosts though. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Forcing boosters to be on-grid is a sloppy and imperfect fix that hurts smaller groups more than larger ones. I say this because larger groups are generally more capable of keeping boosters alive in fleets should they happen to be primaried, and more capable of replacing them on the fly if they still manage to get themselves blown up. As a result we generally keep our command ships on field anyway, often using them as anchor points for the fleet or for logistics. Smaller groups don't have this luxury and so they need to take steps to keep their boosters safe in order to be competitive. Having an off grid booster would help with this, but they do need to be made much easier to find. I don't agree with the signature bloom because doing so would increase the damage taken by the ship (more damage from large and XL missiles, easier tracking by large and XL turrets and more damage from fighters and titan turrets). I'd argue that instead the sensor strength of the ship should be severely cut while links are active. This could lead to problems where the booster gets very easily jammed and as a result can't broadcast targets, but that seems like something CCP could easily fix. I never understood why target broadcasting is limited to targets that can be locked by the broadcasting ship. I think the requirement for broadcasting targets should simply be that the broadcaster and target are on the same grid together. Boosting T3s could have some subsystem tweaking so that the fleet boosting subsystem is offensive rather than defensive, which would have the effect of rendering T3s unable to give both maximum fleet boosts while fitting a covert ops cloak (since that would require a separate offensive subsystem). The defensive subsystem previously used for fleet boosting would be repurposed, and the offensive subsystem being replaced would be one of the subsystems pretty much nobody ever uses (i.e. that hybrid subsystem on the Tengu, or the drone subsystem on the Legion). And of course boosting would be disallowed from within a certain distance of POS shields, say, 50 km (with the exception of mining links for obvious reasons, unless changes were also made to the Rorqual that didn't require using the Industrial Core for maximum boosts). Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm
Stitcher Re-Awakened Technologies Inc 914	Posted - 2013.02.20 11:58:00 - [99] - Quote Truly it is written: "Improve things, and people will hate you for it." An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 7697	Posted - 2013.02.20 12:01:00 - [100] - Quote Milton Middleson wrote: Quote: Tiericide made the Caracal a beastly killing machine, buffed the thorax, made the stabber better, and made some pretty freaking badass support cruisers Tiericide Improved the drake's dps, improved the harbinger's dps, took the hurricane down a slight notch to not be the king of small gang pvp go-to ship, and improved the myrmidon's practical dps lol. ccp buffed scrub ships like t1 firgates and cruisers cause blobbers are afraid to fly something that costs more than a few million iskies. why would you even fly a bc or hac now that cruisers are just as good and cost halve or tenth as much. meanwhile, their going to nerf real pvp ships like t3s because scrubs dont have the balls to field something worth that much so they whine intil ccp does something about it. o7m8s enjoy ur carebear pvp. Milton Middleson's post strikes Milton Middleson's credibility for wrecking damage Milton Middleson's credibility begins to explode Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread
Grath Telkin Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion 1316	Posted - 2013.02.20 12:04:00 - [101] - Quote Best part about this thread is the Damn Cammode guys implying that being in a small gang means you have skill. Sorry bro, but if your go to ship was the Cane or Drake your 'skill' is automatically under investigation. Oh by the way did you realize that every trash throwaway fleet in 0.0 was made of drakes? All them skilled Goonies and Test guys do so appreciate the comments. Somehow I see them adapting quite fast....you on the other hand...yea you'll probably just unsub in a huff. Poor lil fella.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 3986	Posted - 2013.02.20 12:44:00 - [102] - Quote Grath Telkin wrote: Somehow I see them adapting quite fast And by adapting you mean that we're celebrating that we don't have to constantly fly the damn things anymore. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm
adopt Hostile. PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS 550	Posted - 2013.02.20 13:01:00 - [103] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Grath Telkin wrote: Somehow I see them adapting quite fast And by adapting you mean that we're celebrating that we don't have to constantly fly the damn things anymore. Don't worry, there will be another FOTM BC any day now. Shadoo > Always remember to fit Cynosural Field Generator I, have 450 Liquid Ozone in your cargo and convo a friendly Pandemic Legion member if you have a capital or super capital ship tackled.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 761	Posted - 2013.02.20 13:02:00 - [104] - Quote Petrus Blackshell wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: -- HAM Drake -- Remember how I said it's all "Approach, F1" nowadays? Yeah... Approach angled, select target, take damage as you cross the 'target but can't reach' zone, F1 Javelins, launch drones, update angle of approach, cease fire & load Rage, recall and rep drones as needed, continue angled approach, F1 Rage, monitor drones... Monitor local, monitor defenses... Not entirely mechanistic. Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Silk daShocka Greasy Hair Club 316	Posted - 2013.02.20 13:03:00 - [105] - Quote So when will people that complain about small gang pvp getting nerfed start basing they're arguments on small gang vs. small gang instead of small gang vs. blob. That being said, tiericide has done some good to small gangs. T1 logistics for isntance. Cheap and effective.
Vera Algaert Republic University Minmatar Republic 809	Posted - 2013.02.20 13:25:00 - [106] - Quote Rroff wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: It's ok hun. It'll all be ok and better in the morning dearie. /pat pat -Liang Can only assume your completely missing the point of what I'm saying as the responses aren't in any way an appropriate one. If you actually have something useful to contribute say it. what you are saying is that kiting nano ships (which are virtually zero risk if flown with a bare minimum of competency) are the epitome of elite pvp. also that picking on soft targets (stragglers, fleets without recons or logistics, ...) makes you good at pvp. hearing you loud & clear. I'm a NPC corp alt, any argument I make is invalid.
Rico Minali The Straw Men Dark Therapy 1226	Posted - 2013.02.20 13:29:00 - [107] - Quote I like the changes and contrary to the OP I believe that no you will see a greater variation in what makes up small gang pvp. Now, the other BCs are usable in small gang/solo, you wont necessarily know what you are going to face when you go roaming. Until now you would expect to see drake or cane gangs, or some other fotm class of ships, with the new changes expect to find gangs of prophecies along with brutix, rather than 'see prophecy, expect baited hotdrop'. More viable options # better and more varied play. Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Eva Perez Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 3	Posted - 2013.02.20 13:33:00 - [108] - Quote I hate you guys.
MisterNick The Sagan Clan Pax Romana Alliance 214	Posted - 2013.02.20 13:33:00 - [109] - Quote While I commend the OP on his skill at ventriloquism, I must disagree with what his arse is saying. "Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 3986	Posted - 2013.02.20 13:35:00 - [110] - Quote adopt wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: Grath Telkin wrote: Somehow I see them adapting quite fast And by adapting you mean that we're celebrating that we don't have to constantly fly the damn things anymore. Don't worry, there will be another FOTM BC any day now. inb4 welpclone doctrine To be honest there already is another FOTM BC - it's the Naga. However I don't think it's so overpowered as to be a problem, however it IS an excellent ship. Malcanis for CSM 8 Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 207	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:11:00 - [111] - Quote Vera Algaert wrote: Rroff wrote: Liang Nuren wrote: It's ok hun. It'll all be ok and better in the morning dearie. /pat pat -Liang Can only assume your completely missing the point of what I'm saying as the responses aren't in any way an appropriate one. If you actually have something useful to contribute say it. what you are saying is that kiting nano ships (which are virtually zero risk if flown with a bare minimum of competency) are the epitome of elite pvp. also that picking on soft targets (stragglers, fleets without recons or logistics, ...) makes you good at pvp. hearing you loud & clear. Seeing as the fitting that the original comments were made about were based around fits along the lines of: [Hurricane, armorcane] Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Stasis Webifier II Stasis Webifier II Warp Scrambler II 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M 220mm Vulcan AutoCannon II, Hail M Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Medium Trimark Armor Pump I Hammerhead II x1 Hobgoblin II x4 Which are no longer possible to do - I have absolutely no idea what your talking about and like liang are probably missing entirely the point of what I'm talking about. I can only assume you think I'm talking about shield "whelp" canes which is entirely a different matter.
Mathrin Synthetic Solution Synthetic Systems 62	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:14:00 - [112] - Quote Quite crying and go fly a cyclone. I mean have you seen that thing? It's like the drake a cane of old rolled into one.
Rroff The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 207	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:22:00 - [113] - Quote Mathrin wrote: Quit crying and go fly a cyclone. I mean have you seen that thing? It's like the drake a cane of old rolled into one. I'm not crying and neither do I have much interest in flying either the cane or cyclone. I just find it a bit odd that the abilities of the cane in certain fits were put out as the reasoning for the changes it had this patch as being unsuited to a BC yet post patch the cyclone can now be fit in a way that has the same/similiar attributes. End of the day my min alt will be flying lokis in wormhole space and these changes don't directly affect me - its just becoming a worrying trend in eve lately and sooner or later will probably affect something I fly.
Kahega Amielden Rifterlings Damu'Khonde 647	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:26:00 - [114] - Quote Quote: That being said, tiericide has done some good to small gangs. T1 logistics for isntance. Cheap and effective. Been over this before. Logistics ships pretty much make blobs immune to small gang harassment. There used to be some cost and risk associated with this but now, nope. Any t1 shitfleet can have logistics. Quote: Best part about this thread is the Damn Cammode guys implying that being in a small gang means you have skill. Sorry bro, but if your go to ship was the Cane or Drake your 'skill' is automatically under investigation. Even the worst small gang PVPer is leagues better than a blobbing scrub who doesn't know anything other than F1. Quote: Quit crying and go fly a cyclone. I mean have you seen that thing? It's like the drake a cane of old rolled into one. So they homogenized two interesting, unique ships and then made them ****.. How exciting
Aren Madigan EVE University Ivy League 82	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:32:00 - [115] - Quote Maybe stop flying flavor of the month and focus on what playstyle you enjoy the most, learning that and working around its weaknesses? Perish the thought.
Milton Middleson Rifterlings Damu'Khonde 245	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:37:00 - [116] - Quote This is fantastic.
Silk daShocka Greasy Hair Club 316	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:46:00 - [117] - Quote Kahega Amielden wrote: Quote: That being said, tiericide has done some good to small gangs. T1 logistics for isntance. Cheap and effective. Been over this before. Logistics ships pretty much make blobs immune to small gang harassment. There used to be some cost and risk associated with this but now, nope. Any t1 shitfleet can have logistics. Why do you think larger fleets should be vulnerable to small gang harassment? Don't you think it would make more sense to compare small gang vs. small gang fights when balancing decisions are made?
Tiberious Thessalonia True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators 1478	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:49:00 - [118] - Quote Petrus Blackshell wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with OP. It is absolutely unreasonable for the Drake to be nerfed *multiple times. What do CCP think it is, a ***** titan?! The Drake used to be the perfect balance for small gang PvP and now it is unusable. Couple that with the Tengu being kicked into obsolesence , and the Hurricane becoming a pile of you-know-what, I don't know how solo and small gang PvP will survive. CCP needs to wake up. Don't nerf things that work well just becuase everything else sucks. Buff the things that suck! For example, like happened to frigates. Can't agree. Drake is not unusable. Neither is the Hurricane.
silens vesica Corsair Cartel 763	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:52:00 - [119] - Quote Tiberious Thessalonia wrote: Petrus Blackshell wrote: I'm going to go out on a limb here and agree with OP. It is absolutely unreasonable for the Drake to be nerfed *multiple times. What do CCP think it is, a ***** titan?! The Drake used to be the perfect balance for small gang PvP and now it is unusable. Couple that with the Tengu being kicked into obsolesence , and the Hurricane becoming a pile of you-know-what, I don't know how solo and small gang PvP will survive. CCP needs to wake up. Don't nerf things that work well just becuase everything else sucks. Buff the things that suck! For example, like happened to frigates. Can't agree. Drake is not unusable. Neither is the Hurricane. Drake still works. You just have to be willing to work with it a bit, and find a new build or two. But there is a radical concept! Getting way from cookie-cutter BattleClinic builds and experimenting a bit..! Tell someone you love them today, because life is short. But scream it at them in Esperanto, because life is also terrifying and confusing. Malcanis for CSM8
Karl Hobb Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium 1191	Posted - 2013.02.20 14:58:00 - [120] - Quote Milton Middleson wrote: This is fantastic. Truly. 10/10 If you're not already part of a bloc, this is the best guy for CSM8.

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