The "null sec poor, high sec rich, nerf high sec" forum wars are heating up again, and numerous CSM candidates are running on that platform.

CCP, why can't you release economic data that supports, or refutes, these positions?
Diogaras, before he quit in June, was tweeting the results of SQL requests on a daily basis.
He proved how easy it was.

Since then, nothing of value that can be used on a comparative basis of sector by sector income breakdowns.
Why?

The devs themselves posted that they all got a days SQL training a few months ago.
I am not saying that every dev should starting pulling up data, but you could have one dev pull out data for a day and post it, and the various parties then could use it to hammer away at each other with FACTS, not propaganda, suppositions, and lies.

Considering we are anticipating a landslide null sec CSM, many who have publicly stated they are bent on hammering high sec, it would be nice to see some actual data that supports or refutes their claims.

It would also severely reduce the workload of the ISD and they would not have umpteen threads starting up every day about this the economic class warfare.

So I ask again, why can't you release this data?

CCP is never going to hammer Highsec into the ground, thats where new players are. That is there first experience into EVE why make that bad for them ?
Sure Null Contains a lot if not a high percentage of the Core players, but from a Buisness point of View it makes no sense too make High bad Null great.

No matter the bitching the whining and the Flexing It's unlikely to happen i think.

But i support the idea of some offical figures being released .

The "null sec poor, high sec rich, nerf high sec" forum wars are heating up again, and numerous CSM candidates are running on that platform.

CCP, why can't you release economic data that supports, or refutes, these positions?
Diogaras, before he quit in June, was tweeting the results of SQL requests on a daily basis.
He proved how easy it was.

So I guess the ultimate question, is why can't CCP just release the economic data to base intelligent, well thought-out, fact-based platforms on.

Dont need CCP to give us numbers on the high sec vs null sec production problems. Its clear as day null industry sucks balls and that high sec is gifted the best on a golden platter as close to free of charge as possible without being free.

Null sec tears refresh my soul.

Keep them coming

And there we have it. Irrefutable proof, hard numbers, and facts...because baltec1 says so. Somewhere between 0 and infinity, a new numerical system based on "sucks balls" has been created.

Null sec whiners produce more scripted drama than Amish Mafia.

Some of the information is available, eg: station slots available.

Perhaps someone could compile that? I would happily pay a billion ISK for a spreadsheet showing manufacturing and reseach slots available in each system.

And there we have it. Irrefutable proof, hard numbers, and facts...because baltec1 says so. Somewhere between 0 and infinity, a new numerical system based on "sucks balls" has been created.

Null sec whiners produce more scripted drama than Amish Mafia.

We should really get CCP to impliment a system to punish people for misusing that word.

Given how easy it is to look up these numbers I find your post to be rather bad.

You mean using it to characterize the same complaining about high sec coming from the usual suspects in null sec isnt an accurate use of the meme?

I think it fits the situation perfectly.

Please, moar tears!

Given how easy it is to look up these numbers I find your post to be rather bad.

People complaining about their untanked hulks not having very good tanks is crying

People pointing out that a single system in high sec has more industrial slots than entire regions of null is pointing out a rather big problem.

Please learn the difference.

And here we go. When a thread pops up that null sec may find uncomfortable, they direct a guy into it to drag into a slagfest so CCP will lock the thread.

Everyone, ignore the trolls, which gives CCP less reason to kill the thead.

The irony is strong with this one.

There is so much irony and hypocrisy its stunning.

Im not sure some of you realize how foolish you look.

^^^^^Null sec tears above^^^^^

Go on.

Again with the missuse.

We are all still waiting for you to produce the "easy" to gather data that supports your statements. I mean, unless all you're here to do is troll then and shed your delicious tears all over the forums.

wait is sariah kion part of the secret posting squad

Jita (a single system) has 300 slots.
Sobaseki (one jump away) has 250 slots.
Nonni (another five jumps) has 750 slots.
Lonetrek as a whole has 12,600 slots.

Tribute as whole has 497 regular production slots.

Jita (a single system) has 300 slots.
Sobaseki (one jump away) has 250 slots.
Nonni (another five jumps) has 750 slots.
Lonetrek as a whole has 12,600 slots.

Tribute as whole has 497 regular production slots.

What can be done in null sec that cant be done in high sec?

Station slots, yeah, that can be ground out, though I doubt anyone would do it for a billion ISK, when CCP could craft a SQL request and give an answer in by end of day.

Don't respond to him.
It is pointless, and will only end up getting the thread locked.

Anyway, here you go. Cough up the dough! .

Don't respond to him.
It is pointless, and will only end up getting the thread locked.

Not even WI. are that bad at posting.

Please, tell me more about how difficult it is for you to earn ISK in GSF.

Lol Malc, put your money where your mouth is. = P

More fun facts:

-+ Out of 1,212 highsec systems, 650 (54%) offer some form of NPC S&I service:
-á-á-á-á-á2,890 copy slots or 2.4 per system.
-á-á-á-á-á5,780 each of ME, PE, and invention slots or 4.8 per system.
-á-á-á-á-á68,050 production slots or 56.1 per system.

-+ Out of 695 lowsec systems, 306 (44%) offer some form of NPC S&I service:
-á-á-á-á-á1,479 copy slots or 2.1 per system
-á-á-á-á-á2,909 each of ME, PE, and invention slots or 4.2 per system (49 have gone missing somewhereGǪ)
-á-á-á-á-á28,741 production slots or 41.4 per system

-+ Out of 6,022 nullsec systems, 186 offer some form of NPC S&I service:
-á-á-á-á-á1,140 copy slots or 0.19 per system
-á-á-á-á-á2,280 each of ME, PE, and invention slots or 0.38 per system.
-á-á-á-á-á13,550 production slots or 2.3 per system.

GǪnote that the nullsec figures include a number of systems, stations and services that can't be reached or used by players.

Wait, are you saying that there are 1212 high sec systems, 695 low sec systems, and 6022 null and wh systems?

No, the database is.

How are you pulling out that data?

I'm waiting.

It would also severely reduce the workload of the ISD and they would not have umpteen threads starting up every day about this the economic class warfare.

So I ask again, why can't you release this data?

MySQL + the retribution data dump.

Number of f#cks given: 0.

How are you pulling out that data?

If you want everything to be easily accessible in null then it should be thast way in high and low sec.

why should it?

Lol Malc, put your money where your mouth is. = P

Allow moon goo to be mined in high sec and then i can get on board more evenly distributing ind slots into null.

If you want everything to be easily accessible in null then it should be thast way in high and low sec.

Oh yea, and allow more R+I slots in high to match all the R+I going on in POSs in null.

Thanks. I know you all are for a balanced Eve so none of this should be a problem. Right?

If you want everything to be easily accessible in null then it should be thast way in high and low sec.

Oh yea, and allow more R+I slots in high to match all the R+I going on in POSs in null.

Allow moon goo to be mined in high sec and then i can get on board more evenly distributing ind slots into null.

If you want everything to be easily accessible in null then it should be thast way in high and low sec.

Oh yea, and allow more R+I slots in high to match all the R+I going on in POSs in null.

Thanks. I know you all are for a balanced Eve so none of this should be a problem. Right?

all the R+I going on in POSs in null.

Im glad that point when sailing right over your head....

lol

Oh yea, and allow more R+I slots in high to match all the R+I going on in POSs in null.

You clearly don't understand what balance actually means.

Sure. Nerfing High Sec to sate all the null sec mouth breathers sounds like "balance" to me.

There is so much ISK pouring out of null sec this argument really is rather silly. Its just mouth breathers trying to dictate how others play the game by forcing them into their waiting cross hairs because they are not interested in the "gf" with their neighbors.

Tl;dr

This just In: Null sec tears continue to flow over high sec. More news at 10 Jim.

So we have all learned a lesson today.

Null does indeed suck for industry, Some people who scream for numbers don't like it when people post said numbers, crying is being misused and WI. are not the worst posters in EVE.

According to these folks if one section has something more than another that is unbalanced and must be corrected.

Thanks.

Nobody is telling you how to play the game. Nobody.
Quit being a crybaby.

There is no moon goo in high sec.

The numbers are in. There must be something wrong. Please balance this CCP. According to these folks if one section has something more than another that is unbalanced and must be corrected.

Thanks.

Bitter about being wrong I see. Don't worry, the tantrum will pass much like your obsession with us ganking bloated freighters.

There is so much ISK pouring out of null sec this argument really is rather silly.

There is no moon goo in high sec.

The numbers are in. There must be something wrong. Please balance this CCP. According to these folks if one section has something more than another that is unbalanced and must be corrected.

Hilarious.

That is EXACTLY the argument I was responding to. The whole premise of his argument is the fact high has more slots then null there fore that makes things "unblalanced"

Dropping a claim of a straw man makes you look rather silly and discredits the original argument eve more.

You can't moon mine in wormhole space either, yet I don't see anybody complaining about that.

No, you have it incomplete. The full argument, which wasn't posted because we get tired of repeating it for every badposter like you, is that because we have to actually work for our industrial capability and because we're at risk of losing it it should be at the VERY least as good as it is in highsec where you get a lot more of it, for free, instantly, and at zero risk.

Null Sec players want it all. NAO. ALL YOUR STUFFS ARE BELONG TO US!!

Its a good thing that the developers understand this balance better than the mouth breathers crying on the forums

Well then you should have more of everything then, right? According to this logic. I cant believe you clowns dont see how easily your arguments fall apart.

crying on the forums everyday about miners and high sec.

Im ok with not having moon mining in high sec because I understand that its part of the balance that CCP has in place in Eve.

Null Sec players want it all. NAO. ALL YOUR STUFFS ARE BELONG TO US!!

You all cant see the forest for the trees. Its a good thing that the developers understand this balance better than the mouth breathers crying on the forums everyday about miners and high sec.

Repeating a straw man doesn't make it true, you know GÇö it just makes you more wrong.

Yes it is. That's why they are on board with improving null industry, in spite of highseccers crying foul for no reason.

What null sec industry needs is the ability to anchor a POS near any moon. It would also be great if they could do research, invention, and somehow extract goodies from those nearby moons. Maybe run reactions? Or if they could somehow produce the most expensive ships in the game...that would be a bonus.

Null sec also needs a game mechanic introduced where you could claim sovereignty over systems, even entire constellations. But then you'd need to be able to form an alliance with other players and corporations to protect it all. I suppose eventually they might run out of industry slots, so they would need a way to go to war with other alliances so they could invade their systems in order to expand, control more space, and have more industry.

Ya. That would all be very cool. If only...

Which is why they have said that they are going to buff null sec industry...

2. Average payout/ tick of a null sec forsaken hub runner.
3. Average payout/tick of a high sec L4 mission runner.
4. Average payout of high sec incursion runner.

I personally don't have any problem with allowing moon mining in hi-sec. Static, exposed assets that have to be owned by a player corp are exactly what hi-sec needs more of IMO.

What null sec industry needs is the ability to anchor a POS near any moon. It would also be great if they could do research, invention, and somehow extract goodies from those nearby moons. Maybe run reactions? Or if they could somehow produce the most expensive ships in the game...that would be a bonus.

Null sec also needs a game mechanic introduced where you could claim sovereignty over systems, even entire constellations. But then you'd need to be able to form an alliance with other players and corporations to protect it all. I suppose eventually they might run out of industry slots, so they would need a way to go to war with other alliances so they could invade their systems in order to expand, control more space, and have more industry.

Ya. That would all be very cool. If only...

This is just asking for information that folks like you can use to say "see, you can make money in null".

The problem is that "averages" (which also might not turn out how you think lol) don't tell the full story even if you have the information.

This is just asking for information that folks like you can use to say "see, you can make money in null".

The problem is that "averages" (which also might not turn out how you think lol) don't tell the full story even if you have the information.

"Averages" don't take into account the fact that their are a total of THREE respawning forsaken hubs max in any upgraded system, meaning those forsaken hubs can support steady isk making activity of exactly TWO players, as opposed to the INFINITE number of players a single high sec agent can support.

OR the fact that there are many more agents in a single high sec constellation than their are upgraded null sec systems in an entire region (in the same way single null sec systems can have more indy slots than whole null sec regions).

OR the fact that one cloaky ship with an active pilot and a covert cyno can shut down an upgraded system where as nothing short of the server going down or an incursion popping up can shut down Motsu lol.

etc etc. I recently took my tengu alt gu out of null sec an put him in high sec (in the same tengu) scanning down 4/10s and making fat loots without even having to glance at local as opposed to doing yet another fleet staging point escalation path that takes me though 15 null sec systems only to give me ....nothing, after dodging numerous reds and neuts....

I understand you high sec types trying to safeguard your self interest, but the good of the game is whats important here. The same way you should not be forced by game mechanics or circumstance to go to null, i shouldn't be forced OUT of null because High Sec is more profitable (over time) and easy.

So can we, in much less time than thatGǪ it's not like it's hard.

Anyway, here you go. Cough up the dough!

Fun facts: there are three stations in the game that have the wrong services for where and what they are. One is N-FKXV V-12 - Jovian Directorate Academy, which has highsec manufacturing slots in spite of being in null (but then, it's a dev station so it makes sense). The two others are Kor-Azor Prime V-1 - Ishukone Corporation Factory and Kinakka III - Lai Dai Corporation Factory, which have non-station-based invention in spite of being stations.

Its not a strawman.

Its pretty obvious satire.

Industry in null is tied into the greater balance of the economy. You have to understand this.

So we have all learned a lesson today.

Null does indeed suck for industry, Some people who scream for numbers don't like it when people post said numbers, crying is being misused and WI. are not the worst posters in EVE.

Any chance you could add a "Region" column to that list? It would make it much more useful.

Please explain why Null needs more industry? Most people won't build in null anyway due to logistical issues and a FOTM market. 80% of the items supplied in 0.0 are bought in highsec and transported.

I guess the big question is, with the Bee's overwhelming hatred of anything carebearish, why would you want more industry in 0.0?

Any chance you could add a "Region" column to that list? It would make it much more useful.

ISK sent btw

Please explain why Null needs more industry? Most people won't build in null anyway due to logistical issues and a FOTM market. 80% of the items supplied in 0.0 are bought in highsec and transported.

I guess the big question is, with the Bee's overwhelming hatred of anything carebearish, why would you want more industry in 0.0?

Null being incapable of self-sustaining industry is not by design.

I understand you high sec types trying to safeguard your self interest, but the good of the game is whats important here. The same way you should not be forced by game mechanics or circumstance to go to null, i shouldn't be forced OUT of null because High Sec is more profitable (over time) and easy.

What null sec needs is a lot more slots at a price that lets us compete with high sec. That could mean either charging high sec the same as it would cost to run hundreds of POS or adding a new outpost and the ability to put as many in a single system as there are stations in high sec systems.

I think you're missing the entire premise of null sec. The only thing null sec needs is more innovative players.

I think you're missing the entire premise of null sec. The only thing null sec needs is more innovative players.

So how exactly do we get the slots we need while keeping the costs of running these things are the same level of high sec.

OTOH, if null sheds its dependence on high-sec, does that effectively turn Eve into two servers?

You're
Missing
The
*******
Point.

It doesn't matter how innovative we are, we can't get around game mechanics that limit us to an utterly **** industrial backbone.
It's just not possible.
You're either a moron who's unable to see that, or you're a liar.

What's the point, if the content we take is still inferior to what's spoon fed in highsec?
Seriously, all of an alliance's production slots are incapable of even making all of the ammo an alliance needs, much less the ships.

Ugh.
Yes. SoonGäó

You answered your own question. Null needs more industry because [random]% of the items are bought in high and transported rather than produced locally GÇö that's not how it should be. Null-based industrialists are supposed to be able to work in null, supplying null locally, without it being a stupid thing to attempt.

Obviously, there is a market for stuff out there, or all that importing wouldn't happen. The problem is that the game mechanics are so imbalanced that you can't reasonably supply that market in what should be the most efficient manner: by gathering and building where you live. The game effectively prohibits you from building the empires the game is meant to let you build.

I'm not an expert on anything, and I don't claim to be. I'm sure there is some merit to the null sec complaints, and it's no secret that POS's need to be improved. But making null more like high sec or nerfing high sec isn't the answer. Again, I would argue that null is designed to be the final frontier and completely player-driven. It's the players who should address the problem, not demand more NPC interaction.

Actively absorb high sec indy corps if you need more slots in your alliance. Set up trade agreements, or even trade hubs.

Are you being forced out, or did you make that decision on your own? I'm unaware of any game mechanic that actively ejects players from null sec because they aren't reaching a certain ISK/hr quota. If this is the type of gaming you seek, then by your own admission, you would be better served by moving back to high sec.

Null sec players (the ones who don't ***** every 5 minutes) are attracted to the self-sustaining lifestyle. High sec players are spoon fed by NPC content. Which one are you? Really?

I really don't understand all the null bear whining. You live in null sec. If you want more, GO TAKE IT.

We have tens of thousands of pilots out here and we dont even have the slots to make up for the ammo we burn through when DBRB goes structure shooting. There are systems 4 jumps outside of jita that have most of their manufacturing slots unused.

Sounds like you need to build more outposts.

I'm not an expert on anything, and I don't claim to be. I'm sure there is some merit to the null sec complaints, and it's no secret that POS's need to be improved. But making null more like high sec or nerfing high sec isn't the answer. Again, I would argue that null is designed to be the final frontier and completely player-driven. It's the players who should address the problem, not demand more NPC interaction.

Actively absorb high sec indy corps if you need more slots in your alliance. Set up trade agreements, or even trade hubs.

I can't remember the last time I've seen a post this stupid.

What dream world are you living in Tippia?

Very few people go to 0.0 to build, regardless of how easy it might be.

So, if you want to argue the point, please do. Please explain how you intend to solve all the other issues that go along with 0.0 industry...and incidentally persuade all the risk adverse, high industry guys that it's really worth it....If you are willing to invest the billions to get started....

I can't remember the last time I've seen a post this stupid.

Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"

Really, Isn't that the point of 0.0 and outposts?
Or do you think that CCP should make your life even easier than it is now?

Im going to laugh when Tippia pops back in here and demonstrates the fact that you could put an outpost in ALL 6000 null systems and null still wouldn't match a fraction of high sec.

Really, Isn't that the point of 0.0 and outposts?
Or do you think that CCP should make your life even easier than it is now?

The answer to that one is simple. Turn null into high sec.

But, I don't think anyone is calling for that.

The answer to that one is simple. Turn null into high sec.

But, I don't think anyone is calling for that.

Eve is a sandbox. Why can't a null alliance create a part of null-sec that has most of the benefits of high-sec?

What if null-sec industry was potentially lucrative enough that null-dwellers were willing to provide security or incentives for high-sec miners to mine in null?

People make the world go around, so should we really be looking for a people solution versus a "number of manufacturing slots" solution? Meaning, is it better to ask "what would it take to get high-sec miners to migrate to null ?"

EVE is a sandbox, clearly that means we can bypass game mechanics entirely.

And it wouldn't matter anyway, because you'll never get that many industrialists to 0.0.
But that's ok, you kids can ignore all the other issues with that go along with this...

Sorry, but your simply showing your lack of 0.0 experience. PvP'ers hate miners and industrialists. They complain about them endlessly.

Thinking you are going to get a bunch of pvp'ers to sit around for hours while miners make money is......Halarious..

And you know this.... how?

0.0 players don't hate industrialists. They are just completely worthless in nullsec so they don't get recruited or defended or cared about.

Perhaps if nullsec industry wasn't so horrible save for a few edge cases, they would be more well liked and defended.

Eve is a sandbox. Why can't a null alliance create a part of null-sec that has most of the benefits of high-sec?

Ah, so we're all just imaging those corp mining ops people keep calling us to in null sec.

This is how we know you are trolling, because of you aren't then you know nothing of the current state of null.

Themepark carebears are crazy.......

Ah, so we're all just imaging those corp mining ops people keep calling us to in null sec.

This is how we know you are trolling, because of you aren't then you know nothing of the current state of null.

Well then you should have more of everything then, right? According to this logic. I cant believe you clowns dont see how easily your arguments fall apart.

So, what is it that null industrialists want? More slots in null outposts? Higher install and run costs in high sec stations? More, and larger veld rocks in null to end that as a choke point to null manufacturing? Rocks in null produce more minerals than high sec rocks? Make POS refining/reprocessing able to get 100%? Make high sec station refine impossible to get above, say, 75%? LP and faction standing for running anoms?

As a high sec carebear miner/industrialist, I'm 100% emphatically for all of those changes.

Because:
1) they are in null because they want to shoot stuff, not make a trade hub.
2) Even if they wanted to make a trade hub, others would just show up to kill everyone else coming there to trade.

So it has become a happy care-bear heaven, where Pvper's and industrialists work in harmony?

Your right, I don't know 0.0 anymore, and if that's the state it's in....I wouldn't want too...

Oh, and you realize that "Corp mining ops" go to the corp, and rarely are redistributed to the average industry guy right?

I hear all people who make sweeping generalisations about groups of people they don't know much about have an IQ of 90 or less.

Says the guy running for CSM who will make sweeping generalizations about groups of people to represent them?

Says the guy who clearly doesn't understand jokes.

And you know this.... how?

Because:
1) they are in null because they want to shoot stuff, not make a trade hub.
2) Even if they wanted to make a trade hub, others would just show up to kill everyone else coming there to trade.

You're absolutely right. My socks are wet from standing in this river of null bear tears, and I'm a little grumpy.

EVE is a sandbox, clearly that means we can bypass game mechanics entirely.

Very few people go to 0.0 to build

So, if you want to argue the point, please do. Please explain how you intend to solve all the other issues that go along with 0.0 industry

Any chance you could add a "Region" column to that list? It would make it much more useful.

The point being?

Just to help you, here is the point: game imbalances in industry mean that NPC-controlled space mechanically gives more player freedom than player-controlled space. It forces players to work in space they don't live in (and don't particularly want to be in). It renders game content obsolete and meaningless. If this sounds like an ideal state of affairs for anyone, I must conclude that those people feel it's an excellent idea to have a 100% tax on all income in highsec GÇö after all, forcing highseccers to live in low or null if they want to earn ISK must be an equally ideal state of affairs for the exact same reason. You can still run missions or trade or build or do whatever, but all ISK coming into your wallet will be removed. The content is still there so you can still use it just fineGǪ right? Right?

And that's the problem. EVE needs more sand. The current high-sec NPC based game mechanics trump the player driven "emergent gameplay" mechanics in null.

So what needs to change? Well as I see it, high sec has one (HUGE!) thing going for it: security (i.e. 23x7 NPC provided security) Security allows high-sec to tap its abundant resources (mining, missioning, industry, logistics, etc..) What is security good for? It allows high-sec dwellers to tap into high-sec's abundant, lower-quality resources and make profit. People feel safe enough to do business in high-sec.

In comparison, null has abundant resources, higher quality resources, jumpship/bridge logistics, and resources that are unavailable in high-sec. So what's the problem with null? Not enough industry slots? Not enough security? Or something else?

Industry slots appear to be a problem, but industry slots require raw materials. So fixing industry slots isn't going to fix null-sec industry. As for security, null has sov and open PvP to provide security to the point that people can be "null-bears" in null-sec, yet null cannot attract enough miners and industrialists to work locally. Carebears do not feel safe in null.

So why don't carebears feel that null is safe enough to live/work in?

I'm going to go on a limb and say that it's attitude. Null-sec appears to be populated by African Warlords[1] and bandits, a situation which doesn't tend to attract big business. The Roman Empire didn't become the Roman Empire solely because of the l33t PvPing of its warrior caste. It became great because there was a huge "middle class" (plebes, slaves) and trade network supporting the empire and its legions. You can have the best PvPers in the game/world, but they don't amount to a hill of beans if you don't have the workforce to develop and maintain the industry (food, weapons, ships, gold, etc.) to keep the army marching.

Null has warriors but not enough plebes. High-sec has plebes *and* warriors (i.e. NPC security).

Thus, the null-sec workforce/plebeians/middle class is the high-sec carebear. Unless null (aka the CSM and CCP) find a way to attract carebears (you know, miners, mission runners, industrialists, haulers, etc.) into null, then null will always be reliant upon high-sec, and no amount of whining about "how high-sec carebear pods are made of gold" is going to change that.


tl;dr - Null leadership needs to encourage carebears to live, work, and thrive in their piece of null-sec. They need to change (or lose) the "null is PvP incarnate; carebears need not apply" perception/attitude. Seriously, if Erik the Red can get away with calling Greenland Greenland, then you can claim to be a nullbear paradise filled with huge tracts of rich asteroids and bountiful rat bounties and attract a carebear workforce to build up your industrial base.



[1] No offense to any African Warlord players. I know most of you are great people, but a few bad apples have spoiled your image.

It is nice to see ISD cleaned up the thread, since it means that at least someone at CCP is monitoring it.

However, when I see devs respond to wedding announcements and monacle club threads, but ignore threads that are about a main point of contention in the current class warfare in the game, I really question the priorities of CCP.

GǪbecause the game doesn't allow for it. If it did, they would, rather than stay in high and do their null-destined production there. The null producers already exist GÇö tons of them GÇö but the imbalance of the availability, capacity, cost, security, and ease of use force them to produce in highsec instead.

This has already been done on numerous occasions. So yes, please learn the point being deiscussed so you can argue it rather than make silly irrelevant noises.

Just to help you, here is the point: game imbalances in industry mean that NPC-controlled space mechanically gives more player freedom than player-controlled space. It forces players to work in space they don't live in (and don't particularly want to be in). It renders game content obsolete and meaningless. If this sounds like an ideal state of affairs for anyone, I must conclude that those people feel it's an excellent idea to have a 100% tax on all income in highsec GÇö after all, forcing highseccers to live in low or null if they want to earn ISK must be an equally ideal state of affairs for the exact same reason. You can still run missions or trade or build or do whatever, but all ISK coming into your wallet will be removed. The content is still there so you can still use it just fineGǪ right? Right?

AnywayGǪGǪupdated, same URL.

but if Im a high sec industrialist and I want to mine moons I would be told by you to "HTFU" and move to where the moons can be mined or come and take them. Why If I live in High Sec do I have to go to null sec to mine moons?

Oh and nice strawman.

Because moons is what you earn for stick your neck outside of the safety of highsec.

Nope. It's a simile.

Well. Industrial Capacity is centered in Empire space. Feel free to take yourself to where the means are instead of coming to the forums and demanding things change to suit you.

If I have to mine moons in null sec looks like you need to do your manufacturer in high sec.

No, because high sec people could still come to null and get cheap ships and items. Heck, they could even make null sec alts to make isk .....like we do.....

High Sec is Saudi Arabia (or Venezuela, or hell, any OPEc country), Null Sec is America (especially when it comes to military spending :) ). They don't LIKE us, but they sell us oil. And now that we are talking "Alternative Energy" and cutting our dependance on what they are selling us, they are scared that the people they hate won't buy stuff from them anymore.......

rofl.

See, you think you're making a point, when in fact you're conflating two unrelated issues.

By the way, who said anything about moon mining in high sec being wrong? I wouldn't mind seeing a balanced way to mine moons in high sec.

Yeah, you didn't address that cause and effect issue. Once again...

I understand the position but I see it 100% the other way: High sec/ US is the civilized/settled/safe/developed place while NS/Saudi is the third world country but is very dangerous and underdeveloped.

And you manage to avoid the issues altogether?

Issue, not enough slots in 0.0.
Now some numbers would be nice. What are the current usage statistics of all currently existing slots, broken down by high/low/null/ and their current usage level.

I logged on an alt in Delve just for laughs.

Over 1000 manufacturing slots in Delve.......less than 100 in use.....

Yep, I can see that a shortage of manufacturing slots is a serious issue in Delve at least....:)

Over 1000 manufacturing slots in Delve.......less than 100 in use.....

Yep, I can see that a shortage of manufacturing slots is a serious issue in Delve at least....:)

And you manage to avoid the issues altogether?

Issue, not enough slots in 0.0.
Now some numbers would be nice. What are the current usage statistics of all currently existing slots, broken down by high/low/null/ and their current usage level.

I logged on an alt in Delve just for laughs.

Over 1000 manufacturing slots in Delve.......less than 100 in use.....

Yep, I can see that a shortage of manufacturing slots is a serious issue in Delve at least....:)

The PROBLEM is the current mechanics of null sec don' just keep out people who accept no risk, they keep out people like ME who WOULD accept risk if it were worth it. THAT is a structural problem, not a problem of the people who play in null.

The proof of what i say is in the fact that when the null sec system up[grade thing 1st happened, people flocked to the money to be made, danger be dammed. When it got nerfed, back to high sec many of us went because there is a certain level where the risk isn't worth it.

It's that way now for me, when i can make so much in high farming 4/10s with a solo tengu or make 140 to 180 mil an hour in high sec incursions (when LP is factored in) with next to zero risk. I still have null pvp and ratitng alts, but i go days without logging them in sometimes, its just easier to make isk in high sec.

and I'm talking "combat" PVE (which is currently unbalanced in high sec's favor), INDUSTRY is so lopsided in high sec's favor it ain't even funny.

The problem is the game mechanics in this case, not the people.

Relative levels of"development" are irrelevant for this comparison. The main issue is "who is selling the resource (high sec and OPEC)" and "who is dependent on the resources" (ie null sec and everyone IRL who isn't OPEC).

Fair enough.

Questions:
If null industry/PvE/mechanics were buffed above high-sec levels, would:
a) null get enough carebears into (or back into) null to meet null's industry needs? If not, then an anemic null industry would still be a problem.

b) would the *average* carebear industrialist/miner/mission runner want to live in null-sec? (Are you the exception or the rule?) Meaning, would enough carebears make the migration to null to and de-emphasize high-sec's importance?

Also, if high-sec carebears are already making plenty of isk, is the promise of even more isk enough to entice them to null? If high-sec can fill all of a carebear's needs, then offering additional carrots won't get people to move to null, thus implying a high-sec nerf would be warranted.


I'm really starting to agree with the OP that we need more hard data, especially historical data about player populations, migrations, and how alts are used.

Well. Industrial Capacity is centered in Empire space. Feel free to take yourself to where the means are instead of coming to the forums and demanding things change to suit you.

Im only trying to follow along with the original straw man the person I quoted attempted to plant in this thread

Over 1000 manufacturing slots in Delve.......less than 100 in use.....

Yep, I can see that a shortage of manufacturing slots is a serious issue in Delve at least.

By the way, who said anything about moon mining in high sec being wrong? I wouldn't mind seeing a balanced way to mine moons in high sec.

No, I'm going to argue that game imbalances get fixed instead, since I like the game to become better.

Why are you so against game improvements?

You mean the thing that wasn't a straw man? Yeah, no. You failed at both identifying what was being said and following along with it.

A region with only 1k slots (that's less than three highsec systems' worth), and of such appalling quality that not even a tenth is being used. Yes, that highlights the problem quite nicely.

Actually levels of development has everything to do with it but that's going down a divergent path so I'll discontinue that point in this thread.

What actual resources are needed in Null which aren't available? I'm asking about resources, not goods or ability to make goods. An increase in manufacturing capabilities does seem to be an issue which needs to be addressed for NS (conceding that point).

I'm not arguing one side or the other rather trying to figure out exactly what NS wants other than the normal, "Null-sec should be better than hi-sec argument."

Game improvements for who? ;)

Awesome, tyvm.

I hope Mr Snetterton is as pleased by this very useful data set as I am!

i think, the point being, why spend time mining in 0.0 for a corp to take everything, when you can just mine in high sec on roughly equal isk/hour ores and keep everything for yourself?

the fundamental issue with mining in null vs mining in empire is that mining in null has a lot of drawbacks that simply aren't compensated for due to the very small difference between the isk values of all the ores combined with the fact that null sec mining pretty much forces you to mine both 7m/can ores, and 2m can ores, rather than in empire where you can sit harvesting 5-6m/can ores all day long.

in simple terms; the effort and risk increase are not worth the reward.

Everyone.

Ummm, that's what you want but that's not what is going to happen. Crapping someone elses part of the sandbox to make your part of the sandbox have less crap isn't for 'everyone.'

I'm glad you're on the same page with us here. This situation is what needs to be changed.

data in a vacuum is worthless.

GǪand as luck would have it, the only ones suggesting that are the highseccers, and that's why CCP are ignoring them and moving towards improving null industry.

As I already stated earlier, data in and of itself is neither good nor bad, but accurate data is always welcome.
However, data in a vacuum is worthless.

This bit of data provided by Tippia is just part of a much bigger picture, and the amount of mfg slots in high sec, low, null, and wh's is useless without other data to add context.