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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1521
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 19:59:00 -
[2791] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote: Yes, in that case the PvP player can act before the PVE player. The exact reverse of the other situation.
It's got nothing to do with butthurt. AFK cloakers put null systems out of action at no cost to the cloaker, with no risk, and with zero effort. I don't think people should be able to do that while AFK. If you want to actively cloak in a system and put it out of use, that's fine, but it does not add to the game to allow AFK players to do it 24/7.
It is not the exact reverse. If you see somebody in system who is not blue either when you log in or when the neutral/hostile enters system you have considerable advantage since you'll have time on your side.
Somebody jumping into a system looking for a target then time is not a luxury.
And AFK cloakers have costs, just not substantial ones. |
![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1521
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:03:00 -
[2792] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Astroniomix wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:
It's got nothing to do with butthurt. AFK cloakers put null systems out of action at no cost to the cloaker, with no risk, and with zero effort. I don't think people should be able to do that while AFK. If you want to actively cloak in a system and put it out of use, that's fine, but it does not add to the game to allow AFK players to do it 24/7.
Learn to play the game then, stop cowering in fear of a guy that can't even control his ship. Sigh... This has been covered numerous times. I hate that people keep jumping in here, and raising things that they easily could have read about sever hundred times over in this very thread. The issue is you can't see who's AFK and who's not. So treating anyone as AFK is a moronic idea. The whole "AFK people can't hurt anyone" has been discussed over and over, and it's one of the stupidest arguments going. The easiest way to see it, is: If I was going on fire a gun at your chair where you sat, but you didn't know if it was loaded or not, and you had full control over staying in that chair or getting up, would you remain seated and risk getting shot in the head? It's that same thing. It's simply not logical to remain in system with a cloaker when there are so many other systems to play in. AFK cloaking exists to deny content for no reason, the AFK player gains no gameplay from it as they aren't there. It's counter productive to a game to deny content. I can;t understand why anybody supports that. Worse still, most people that support it whine to no end about other AFK activities like AFK miners, which takes considerably more actual play time.
Like how you keep saying no cost when we have covered that before. Or how the current mechanics with local give the resident an advantage. Now you are going back over those topics and ignoring what has been discussed before. And now flailing away with trying to claim a system resident doesn't have a clear advantage. |
![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1521
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:06:00 -
[2793] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Bull. You see the new local before you even finish the tunnel, so both sides see local at about the same time. You are wrong again. Sure i see it, but I can't act on it. I have to wait for the client. The resident on the other hand can act on it. Advantage: resident. You are quite simply flat out wrong. Wrong on the facts, wrong on your interpretation, wrong on your conclusions. LOL No you sir are wrong. You are claiming a residents local is somehow more powerful that yours. It's not in any way shape or form. The fact that you can't act is NOT a local mechanic, it's a gate mechanic. If you don't gate, like the resident didn't, you can act as fast as they can. If they gate to you, they get the time it takes to finish gating. And there are loads of these. When you warp onto a grid, I can start approaching you before you gain controls. When you undock, I can't do anything to you until you perform an action. That's just the way the game works, and no getting teary eyed and tantruming over how much you hate local will change that. Even if they implement an "effort based" local, the same thing would still happen. Whatever it still conveys a distinct advantage on the person already in system. You know it and are just obfuscating. And with undocking there is an invul timer so not at all equivalent. As for warping in again you can't do anything like target, etc. the pilot until the warp bubble collapses. Can you move, yeah but that is pretty damn trivial. Now if the pilot could not do anything for a full second after the warp bubble collapses that would be more comparable. Really grasping at straws here. I'm not grasping at anything. Sure, there's an advantage for someone in a system, prepped to react to someone coming in. Of course there is. But that is not created by local. That is created by the fact that the person in the system has a static environment to observe, wile the arriving player has a change into an unknown environment. If they changed it to to a POS module or a scanner, it would be EXACTLY the same, since the person already in the system is still looking out for new arrivals. The people punished would be those who are unable to put an intel chain in place, and the people with the most to gain would be those with the covops cloak, making them far more useful than their non-covops counterparts. Just because you want to close your eyes and ignore that, demanding that all PVE players must have a standing army to be able to shoot red crossers or zap rocks, doesn't mean I'm grasping at anything. It means you haven't really considered the problem and instead have simply leapt to a rubbish conclusion.
Well if it isn't local giving the advantage then changing local should not be a problem because it conveys no advantage.
Kinda messed there didn't you? |
![Womyn Power Womyn Power](https://images.evetech.net/characters/430119159/portrait?size=64)
Womyn Power
Love Squad Black Legion.
60
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:13:00 -
[2794] - Quote
omg nerf op claoking plz cp give it a fuel cost or somthing i cant even rat
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![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1521
|
Posted - 2013.11.10 20:20:00 -
[2795] - Quote
Womyn Power wrote:omg nerf op claoking plz cp give it a fuel cost or somthing i cant even rat
Fuel would nerf active cloaking too. That you cannot handlean AFK cloaker is your problem, not the problem of everyone who uses cloaking devices. |
![Vas Eldryn Vas Eldryn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1284639266/portrait?size=64)
Vas Eldryn
37
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 02:30:00 -
[2796] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Womyn Power wrote:omg nerf op claoking plz cp give it a fuel cost or somthing i cant even rat
Fuel would nerf active cloaking too. That you cannot handlean AFK cloaker is your problem, not the problem of everyone who uses cloaking devices.
Well while I don't really agree with womyn, but right back at you, if you cant handle local thats your problem, not the problem of everyone who uses local. |
![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1525
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 04:06:00 -
[2797] - Quote
Vas Eldryn wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Womyn Power wrote:omg nerf op claoking plz cp give it a fuel cost or somthing i cant even rat
Fuel would nerf active cloaking too. That you cannot handlean AFK cloaker is your problem, not the problem of everyone who uses cloaking devices. Well while I don't really agree with womyn, but right back at you, if you cant handle local thats your problem, not the problem of everyone who uses local.
Cloaking does not convey a one sided advantage now does it?
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![Gothikia Gothikia](https://images.evetech.net/characters/611762281/portrait?size=64)
Gothikia
Regeneration
229
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:39:00 -
[2798] - Quote
There's nothing wrong with cloaking. You idiots are just too butthurt because you got caught off guard by cloakies at one point or can't ~continue normal operations~ of afk mining with your dicks hanging out.
Stop whining about a mechanic when it's your own attitude to it that is at fault. |
![Andy Landen Andy Landen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1206213630/portrait?size=64)
Andy Landen
Battlestars Ex Cinere Scriptor
263
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 06:52:00 -
[2799] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Vas Eldryn wrote:
Well while I don't really agree with womyn, but right back at you, if you cant handle local thats your problem, not the problem of everyone who uses local.
Cloaking does not convey a one sided advantage now does it? Neither does local. Your issue is with loading grid and with session changes, not with local. You mind dropping the "local" distraction and focusing on the issue of afk cloakies with cynos; because I think most of us could care less about a single "afk" cloaky without a cyno. And by "afk," I mean, all cloakies with cynos, because it doesn't even make sense to talk about afk unless the client implements an auto-logoff to reveal the "afk" and to separate the "afk" from the non-afk so a sudden return to the keyboard does not render the "afk" intel meaningless.
Let us proceed toward actually making progress on this topic. I think that my two suggestions bring us fairly close to a resolution, assuming that the op is interested in a real solution. 1) Auto-logoff after 30 minutes without keyboard or mouse input. 2) A cloaky ship may not fit both a cyno gen/covert cyno gen, and the disruption/scrambling module at the same time. Now discuss this with an eye to a real solution to this afk cloaky topic. |
![Barbaydos Barbaydos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1299571599/portrait?size=64)
Barbaydos
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 07:24:00 -
[2800] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Vas Eldryn wrote:
Well while I don't really agree with womyn, but right back at you, if you cant handle local thats your problem, not the problem of everyone who uses local.
Cloaking does not convey a one sided advantage now does it? Neither does local. Your issue is with loading grid and with session changes, not with local. You mind dropping the "local" distraction and focusing on the issue of afk cloakies with cynos; because I think most of us could care less about a single "afk" cloaky without a cyno. And by "afk," I mean, all cloakies with cynos, because it doesn't even make sense to talk about afk unless the client implements an auto-logoff to reveal the "afk" and to separate the "afk" from the non-afk so a sudden return to the keyboard does not render the "afk" intel meaningless. Let us proceed toward actually making progress on this topic. I think that my two suggestions bring us fairly close to a resolution, assuming that the op is interested in a real solution. 1) Auto-logoff after 30 minutes without keyboard or mouse input. 2) A cloaky ship may not fit both a cyno gen/covert cyno gen, and the disruption/scrambling module at the same time. Now discuss this with an eye to a real solution to this afk cloaky topic.
my issue with 2 is that you then limit potential pvp, e.g. i use a cloaky alt to scout and scan when on pvp ops if i manage to get a warp in on a hostile then without the scram/point he can just warp out before i can decloak, light cyno and then wait 5-10 seconds for the rest of the crew to jump in and load grid from the blops or the titan, now granted this situation only applies to small scale pvp or solo ganks, but in doing so you nerf BLOPS dropping or covert ops gangs in general, seeing as they would be primary people to want a point/scram on a ship with a covert ops cloak. |
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![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 10:26:00 -
[2801] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Well if it isn't local giving the advantage then changing local should not be a problem because it conveys no advantage.
Kinda messed there didn't you? No, not at all. I'm beginning to think you are mentally deficient with these responses. First I'm going to explain: How does local give a PVE player an advantage? It doesn't. Gate Mechanics give a player in a system an advantage. That's all that can be said. If local were not there, but there was an effort based system this would STILL BE THE CASE. A player entering system would not magically be able to react before the grid loaded. Also, it's not a PVE advantage, it's a "whoever's not jumping" advantage. If player A is in a system and Player B jumps in, gate mechanics give Player A half a second to react over player B. It's doesn't matter what type of player either Player A or Player B is.
And now I'm going to thank you. Thank you. You are correct. Local is not giving any advantage. I'm glad we've now cleared that up. Can we now proceed with this discussion which is about AFK players, NOT about local? If you still want to discuss changes to local that you support, which in fact would ADD an advantage, Nikk's thread is specifically for that. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 10:29:00 -
[2802] - Quote
Gothikia wrote:There's nothing wrong with cloaking. You idiots are just too butthurt because you got caught off guard by cloakies at one point or can't ~continue normal operations~ of afk mining with your dicks hanging out.
Stop whining about a mechanic when it's your own attitude to it that is at fault. I'm not complaining about cloaks. I'm complaining about AFK players. I want AFK players to be warped to deadspace and marked in local as such, so it's the equivalent of logging them off but still allowing them to be logged on (to log chats and save hassle). I have no issue with cloakers. Thanks for the well thought out response though. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 10:33:00 -
[2803] - Quote
Barbaydos wrote:now suggestion no.1 is that for any ship in space with/without a cloak or is it for any client all together so even people afk in stations are auto-logged off? Realistically it would have to treat all AFK players the same, which is why IMO, it's better to not log off, but to mark in local and warp to desdspace if in space. Coming back to the PC would be the same as logging on. It just saves the hassle of having to go through all of the launcher when you return, but resolves the issues around AFK players.
The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
![Barbaydos Barbaydos](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1299571599/portrait?size=64)
Barbaydos
Black Scorpions Inc Circle-Of-Two
4
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 11:41:00 -
[2804] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Barbaydos wrote:now suggestion no.1 is that for any ship in space with/without a cloak or is it for any client all together so even people afk in stations are auto-logged off? Realistically it would have to treat all AFK players the same, which is why IMO, it's better to not log off, but to mark in local and warp to desdspace if in space. Coming back to the PC would be the same as logging on. It just saves the hassle of having to go through all of the launcher when you return, but resolves the issues around AFK players.
whilst that might sort out the afk issue (at least until someone makes a clicking bot... oh wait) you would be nerfing the primary reason for having a cloaky afk in a system (to deny the enemy access to easy isk). now dont get me wrong, when a couple of constellations of space can be shutdown effectively by one dude and a handful of clients, its not just annoying or aggravating, its a game breaker. When entire corps just sit afk in station or log out instead of playing because of one person and his alts its a problem that needs to be addressed, but not removed entirely.
removing afk cloaking would be taking any advantage away from smaller game entities and giving it back to larger ones, that said its still a broken mechanic. |
![Infinity Ziona Infinity Ziona](https://images.evetech.net/characters/525352706/portrait?size=64)
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
769
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 12:08:00 -
[2805] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Gothikia wrote:There's nothing wrong with cloaking. You idiots are just too butthurt because you got caught off guard by cloakies at one point or can't ~continue normal operations~ of afk mining with your dicks hanging out.
Stop whining about a mechanic when it's your own attitude to it that is at fault. I'm not complaining about cloaks. I'm complaining about AFK players. I want AFK players to be warped to deadspace and marked in local as such, so it's the equivalent of logging them off but still allowing them to be logged on (to log chats and save hassle). I have no issue with cloakers. Thanks for the well thought out response though. This should apply to AFK station people as well. Many null players AFK in station. When I'm travelling in null which lately is pretty much always there's a station every couple of jumps with players AFK. They can be there 23 hours a day.
What this means is every couple of jumps I have to run the AFK or Not gauntlet either stopping travel, run the risk they're cloaked at a gate rather than AFK in station and red rover it and risking getting blown up or find a longer way round.
|
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 13:15:00 -
[2806] - Quote
Barbaydos wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Barbaydos wrote:now suggestion no.1 is that for any ship in space with/without a cloak or is it for any client all together so even people afk in stations are auto-logged off? Realistically it would have to treat all AFK players the same, which is why IMO, it's better to not log off, but to mark in local and warp to desdspace if in space. Coming back to the PC would be the same as logging on. It just saves the hassle of having to go through all of the launcher when you return, but resolves the issues around AFK players. whilst that might sort out the afk issue (at least until someone makes a clicking bot... oh wait) you would be nerfing the primary reason for having a cloaky afk in a system (to deny the enemy access to easy isk). now dont get me wrong, when a couple of constellations of space can be shutdown effectively by one dude and a handful of clients, its not just annoying or aggravating, its a game breaker. When entire corps just sit afk in station or log out instead of playing because of one person and his alts its a problem that needs to be addressed, but not removed entirely. removing afk cloaking would be taking any advantage away from smaller game entities and giving it back to larger ones, that said its still a broken mechanic. But big groups care the least about AFK cloakers. I'm in the CFC. I have countless regions to play in. No group will ever shut down enough of our space to matter. A small group with a handful of systems however can be shut down by one guy. I have 8 accounts. I could shut down 8 systems solo, all the time I'm at work or asleep, so like 18-20 hours a day. Who do you think would feel that most, a small group or a huge alliance? The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 13:16:00 -
[2807] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Gothikia wrote:There's nothing wrong with cloaking. You idiots are just too butthurt because you got caught off guard by cloakies at one point or can't ~continue normal operations~ of afk mining with your dicks hanging out.
Stop whining about a mechanic when it's your own attitude to it that is at fault. I'm not complaining about cloaks. I'm complaining about AFK players. I want AFK players to be warped to deadspace and marked in local as such, so it's the equivalent of logging them off but still allowing them to be logged on (to log chats and save hassle). I have no issue with cloakers. Thanks for the well thought out response though. This should apply to AFK station people as well. Many null players AFK in station. When I'm travelling in null which lately is pretty much always there's a station every couple of jumps with players AFK. They can be there 23 hours a day. What this means is every couple of jumps I have to run the AFK or Not gauntlet either stopping travel, run the risk they're cloaked at a gate rather than AFK in station and red rover it and risking getting blown up or find a longer way round. Sure, AFK players in stations should also be marked AFK, and get the usual "logon, can't undock" timer upon return.
The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
![Infinity Ziona Infinity Ziona](https://images.evetech.net/characters/525352706/portrait?size=64)
Infinity Ziona
Cloakers
769
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 13:34:00 -
[2808] - Quote
Infinity Ziona wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Gothikia wrote:There's nothing wrong with cloaking. You idiots are just too butthurt because you got caught off guard by cloakies at one point or can't ~continue normal operations~ of afk mining with your dicks hanging out.
Stop whining about a mechanic when it's your own attitude to it that is at fault. I'm not complaining about cloaks. I'm complaining about AFK players. I want AFK players to be warped to deadspace and marked in local as such, so it's the equivalent of logging them off but still allowing them to be logged on (to log chats and save hassle). I have no issue with cloakers. Thanks for the well thought out response though. This should apply to AFK station people as well. Many null players AFK in station. When I'm travelling in null which lately is pretty much always there's a station every couple of jumps with players AFK. They can be there 23 hours a day. What this means is every couple of jumps I have to run the AFK or Not gauntlet either stopping travel, run the risk they're cloaked at a gate rather than AFK in station and red rover it and risking getting blown up or find a longer way round. The thing is the system is not shut down it just is not completely safe. There's a big difference. The only thing I do sympathize with is the hotdrop fear but thats an issue with hotdropping and not cloaking. |
![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1526
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 15:25:00 -
[2809] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Well if it isn't local giving the advantage then changing local should not be a problem because it conveys no advantage.
Kinda messed there didn't you? No, not at all. I'm beginning to think you are mentally deficient with these responses. First I'm going to explain: How does local give a PVE player an advantage? It doesn't. Gate Mechanics give a player in a system an advantage. That's all that can be said. If local were not there, but there was an effort based system this would STILL BE THE CASE. A player entering system would not magically be able to react before the grid loaded. Also, it's not a PVE advantage, it's a "whoever's not jumping" advantage. If player A is in a system and Player B jumps in, gate mechanics give Player A half a second to react over player B. It's doesn't matter what type of player either Player A or Player B is. And now I'm going to thank you. Thank you. You are correct. Local is not giving any advantage. I'm glad we've now cleared that up. Can we now proceed with this discussion which is about AFK players, NOT about local? If you still want to discuss changes to local that you support, which in fact would ADD an advantage, Nikk's thread is specifically for that.
Wow, look at the attempt to save your argument.
It is clearly local and the gate mechanic/client updating that gives the advantage. Nikk explained this about 60 pages back, so you can cut out the condescending ****** attitude. It just makes you look petty and petulant.
And it paints you into a corner. If local has nothing to do with the advantage, then removing local would not be an issue.
We know it is an issue for you since you think it would ruin null, so we know your argument is a load of horse ****.
[Hint: time to try a new tactic Lucas] Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1526
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 15:30:00 -
[2810] - Quote
Barbaydos wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:Barbaydos wrote:now suggestion no.1 is that for any ship in space with/without a cloak or is it for any client all together so even people afk in stations are auto-logged off? Realistically it would have to treat all AFK players the same, which is why IMO, it's better to not log off, but to mark in local and warp to desdspace if in space. Coming back to the PC would be the same as logging on. It just saves the hassle of having to go through all of the launcher when you return, but resolves the issues around AFK players. whilst that might sort out the afk issue (at least until someone makes a clicking bot... oh wait) you would be nerfing the primary reason for having a cloaky afk in a system (to deny the enemy access to easy isk). now dont get me wrong, when a couple of constellations of space can be shutdown effectively by one dude and a handful of clients, its not just annoying or aggravating, its a game breaker. When entire corps just sit afk in station or log out instead of playing because of one person and his alts its a problem that needs to be addressed, but not removed entirely. removing afk cloaking would be taking any advantage away from smaller game entities and giving it back to larger ones, that said its still a broken mechanic.
I agree, which is why I think going to the root of the problem is the best solution.
AFK cloaking works because of local. It lets everyone know there is greatly increased risk due to this new uncertain element and one response is to dock up/log off. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
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![Teckos Pech Teckos Pech](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1138644787/portrait?size=64)
Teckos Pech
The Executives Executive Outcomes
1526
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 15:31:00 -
[2811] - Quote
Lucas Kell wrote:I'm in the CFC. I have countless regions to play in.
No you don't.
You can rat and PvE in some regions, not in all of them. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 16:07:00 -
[2812] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:It is clearly local and the gate mechanic/client updating that gives the advantage. Nikk explained this about 60 pages back, so you can cut out the condescending ****** attitude. It just makes you look petty and petulant.
And it paints you into a corner. If local has nothing to do with the advantage, then removing local would not be an issue.
We know it is an issue for you since you think it would ruin null, so we know your argument is a load of horse ****.
[Hint: time to try a new tactic Lucas] It is clearly the gate mechanic NOT the local. How many times does it need to be said. If there were no such thing as local, but there was a beacon announcing your presence, the problem would still be there... surely? Surely in that case the inhabitant would still be able to react first?
And no, it doesn't paint me into a corner, since I'm not asking for local to be changed. You want to change local so it gives cloakers a HUGE advantage over all other players. I want it to stay far and balanced like it is now. I want to talk about AFKness of players, you want to talk about local. You realise this is an AFK cloak thread right? Not a "nuke local" thread? You should, you made it.
I'm honestly confused how you can possibly respond thinking I'm somehow being tripped up by my own words and thus must conclude that a god awful change for local needs to be agreed. But please, by all means, proceed with telling me how flawed your comprehension of simple concepts is. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 16:12:00 -
[2813] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:I agree, which is why I think going to the root of the problem is the best solution.
AFK cloaking works because of local. It lets everyone know there is greatly increased risk due to this new uncertain element and one response is to dock up/log off. Wrong. Local is not the cause. Once again I'll note that local is no more the cause of AFK cloaking as your monitor is the cause of popups.
Also, even if it was the cause, it still wouldn't change the fact that removing local makes cloakers much more powerful and makes non-covops ships useless for roaming. Removing local is a stupid idea, and you can dress it up as much as you want and chant "it's not removal, it's change to effort based systems" as much as you want, but it's still removing local. The first step of the plan is "remove local". Whether or not there some flawed PoS mechanic dumped in it's place is beside the point. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
![Lucas Kell Lucas Kell](https://images.evetech.net/characters/861913718/portrait?size=64)
Lucas Kell
JSR1 AND GOLDEN GUARDIAN PRODUCTIONS SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1697
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 16:14:00 -
[2814] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Lucas Kell wrote:I'm in the CFC. I have countless regions to play in. No you don't. You can rat and PvE in some regions, not in all of them. That's funny, I don't remember saying "I can mine/rat in ALL CFC space". Oh right, yeah, that's cos I didn't. The number of systems I can mine and rat in (bearing in mind as well as SMA space, we also surround several groups of NPC null) is considerably higher than many small alliances, and spread across multiple regions. The Indecisive Noob - A new EVE Fan Blog for news and stuff. |
![Kenpo Kenpo](https://images.evetech.net/characters/622454792/portrait?size=64)
Kenpo
61st Angry Angels
23
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 18:40:00 -
[2815] - Quote
The mind is a terrible thing and it must be stopped before someone else becomes paranoid. Caution, rubber gloves and faceshield required when handling this equipment. |
![Andy Landen Andy Landen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1206213630/portrait?size=64)
Andy Landen
Battlestars Ex Cinere Scriptor
263
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 19:01:00 -
[2816] - Quote
Teckos Pech wrote:Andy Landen wrote:Teckos Pech wrote:Andy Landen wrote: And to Teckos, I do not change my position on cynos, hotdrops, etc.. They are OP, but I can manage them well enough through evasive practices. Evasion does not create balance. It just allows OP mechanics to not ruin the game. Mark these words: True balance is found when evasion is neither needed or desired!
... And if you can manage them (cynos/hot drops)...they are by definition not OP. OP is something for which there is not a reasonable response. Example tracking titans. There was pretty much no reasonable response there other than to bring even more tracking titans. That is not balanced, that is unbalanced. Hence the nerf. I love it when people use lots of words to say that they agree. .. except on the evasion, I'll grant that. I'll put it like this: Titans one shot carriers. IMHO, that is OP. So I do not allow my carrier to be in a position where it could be 1 shotted by a Titan. Does that avoidance mean that my management of the risk negates the Titan being OP? Not at all. It just means that I won't let OP ships take advantage of me. Risk mitigation does not lend a blanket endorse against something being OP. The fact that I decided to evade means that there may be something OP about the other ship/mechanic. If there was an effective way to fight it, I wouldn't choose to evade. So we can say that the cloaky cyno forces the evasion behavior. If there were no cyno, I promise you that I would always be prepared to fight the hostile. I hope that makes sense and clarifies what I am saying well enough. There is an effective way to fight...bring more people. No, this isn't an argument for blobbing, but just showing up with 5 guys in PvP fit ships to rat will prevent the hot drop (at least the covert ops variety). In this case you don't have to evade, but you may not actually fight...which according to some martial philosophies is the highest level of skill....winning and not fighting. If you bring 5 battleships to your op, the hotdropper will just pass on that their are 5 times the number of juicy targets and they will increase their blob to easily overpower your 5 BS. It isn't that hard when you already see your enemy and their ships. 5 cruisers, then they will adjust what is dropped on you to handle them. This isn't to say that they will always be able to adapt to your fleet composition, but if your ships are worth anything significant, they will find a way, promise.
Quote:Fit your carries better. To Astro, only the Archon can survive a DD and only if it sacrifices its cap so that its RR is trivial; and it will be into structure after the first DD. And that is only if you know in advance which Titan/damage type will hit you. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
![Andy Landen Andy Landen](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1206213630/portrait?size=64)
Andy Landen
Battlestars Ex Cinere Scriptor
263
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 19:13:00 -
[2817] - Quote
Barbaydos wrote: my issue with 2 is that you then limit potential pvp, e.g. i use a cloaky alt to scout and scan when on pvp ops if i manage to get a warp in on a hostile then without the scram/point he can just warp out before i can decloak, light cyno and then wait 5-10 seconds for the rest of the crew to jump in and load grid from the blops or the titan, now granted this situation only applies to small scale pvp or solo ganks, but in doing so you nerf BLOPS dropping or covert ops gangs in general, seeing as they would be primary people to want a point/scram on a ship with a covert ops cloak.
now suggestion no.1 is that for any ship in space with/without a cloak or is it for any client all together so even people afk in stations are auto-logged off?
PVP is changed not limited. Non-cyno ships would grab the point while working in partnership with the cyno ship. Changed tactics for the same kill. Successful afk cloak of a system requires 2 ships; twice the requirements halves the number of systems tied up. Blops would also follow the same tactic shift using two ships working together (teamwork) to get the blobbing gank.
My auto-log suggestion applies to all ships, docked or not. No need to discriminate or to give out free intel on the state of the ship logged off. Just a generic auto-logoff. "We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein-á |
![Nikk Narrel Nikk Narrel](https://images.evetech.net/characters/241871860/portrait?size=64)
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Insidious Empire
3219
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 20:44:00 -
[2818] - Quote
Here is another perspective that might help.
Reasonable: The ability to place destructible infrastructure that notifies a channel when a gate has been activated. It could go so far as to cross reference friendly transponder tags, and disregard activations by friendly pilots. Unreasonable: Identifying any pilot to a hostile force while still under a gate cloak effect, or while in transit resulting in the gate cloak effect.
Being able to know pilot identity prior to them even loading system allows you to online boosters, launch drones, and activate propulsion mods, all in preparation to ambush. It is more than enough to know that all entries must enter through the bottleneck of the jump gates, being spoon fed decision making intel beyond that is simply beyond need. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
![Astroniomix Astroniomix](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1523805172/portrait?size=64)
Astroniomix
Cryptic Meta-4
605
|
Posted - 2013.11.11 22:34:00 -
[2819] - Quote
Andy Landen wrote: To Astro, only the Archon can survive a DD and only if it sacrifices its cap so that its RR is trivial; and it will be into structure after the first DD. And that is only if you know in advance which Titan/damage type will hit you.
Confirming that fleet carriers never refit mid fight ever. |
![Vas Eldryn Vas Eldryn](https://images.evetech.net/characters/1284639266/portrait?size=64)
Vas Eldryn
38
|
Posted - 2013.11.12 06:30:00 -
[2820] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Here is another perspective that might help.
Reasonable: The ability to place destructible infrastructure that notifies a channel when a gate has been activated. It could go so far as to cross reference friendly transponder tags, and disregard activations by friendly pilots. Unreasonable: Identifying any pilot to a hostile force while still under a gate cloak effect, or while in transit resulting in the gate cloak effect.
Being able to know pilot identity prior to them even loading system allows you to online boosters, launch drones, and activate propulsion mods, all in preparation to ambush. It is more than enough to know that all entries must enter through the bottleneck of the jump gates, being spoon fed decision making intel beyond that is simply beyond need.
let me get this strait.... you're against gates, local, attacking players that are ready for a fight, just cut to the chase and say "I just want free kills!" already! Yes Defenders get a slight advantage, there is a reason for this i believe and that is that PVE is an important part of null sec, without it most alliances would crumble. But you seriously cant see beyond your own killboard can you? |
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