I try to convince them that they are not experiencing what the game really has to offer

I find that often times when new players look for corporations they get sucked into a high sec corporation run by carebears. I had multiple internet friends try Eve and go join their other internet friends doing missions, I try to convince them that they are not experiencing what the game really has to offer, they ignore me, and quit the game saying its ****.

These are the reasons they leave EvE and claim it sucks:

Antisocial. Labeling. Telling them THIS IS THE WAY TO PLAY OR IT"S THE HIGHWAY. GTFO scrub!!!

That behavior is really going win friends and influence them. -_-

If a player doesn't want to PvP for the moment, who are you to dictate how he's going to spend his money and time? CCP has missions, and if he wants to do them, it's in the game for players to play.

Most gamers start small to learn the game. They don't jump headfirst into the deep pool. EvE isn't a "nice" game, and unless they get acquainted to it, they'll leave in a heartbeat.

These are the reasons they leave EvE and claim it sucks:

Antisocial. Labeling. Telling them THIS IS THE WAY TO PLAY OR IT"S THE HIGHWAY. GTFO scrub!!!

That behavior is really going win friends and influence them. -_-

If a player doesn't want to PvP for the moment, who are you to dictate how he's going to spend his money and time? CCP has missions, and if he wants to do them, it's in the game for players to play.

Most gamers start small to learn the game. They don't jump headfirst into the deep pool. EvE isn't a "nice" game, and unless they get acquainted to it, they'll leave in a heartbeat.

ITT: npc corp alt talking about carebears.

These are the reasons they leave EvE and claim it sucks:

Antisocial. Labeling. Telling them THIS IS THE WAY TO PLAY OR IT"S THE HIGHWAY. GTFO scrub!!!

That behavior is really going win friends and influence them. -_-

If a player doesn't want to PvP for the moment, who are you to dictate how he's going to spend his money and time? CCP has missions, and if he wants to do them, it's in the game for players to play.

Most gamers start small to learn the game. They don't jump headfirst into the deep pool. EvE isn't a "nice" game, and unless they get acquainted to it, they'll leave in a heartbeat.

Most new players want to pvp, and the experience after the tutorial does not enable that. They get sucked into carebear corps.

Then the issue is with the tutorial and where it sends you afterwards, not the corps :)

Maybe if it taught people how to use the corp finder, there would be less of a problem...also if recruitment channel was not so awful

Well, it does most indeed offer those things.

What do you think it had to offer ??

Also: -1/10

If I flame this straw man, will it burn?

So what you're saying is everyone who lives in hisec and preferes not to pvp is a carebear?

There's more to EVE than just shooting players. Not to mention that without 'carebears' the market price would be high, minerals up etc and no ships to buy when someone blows yours up.

For the record, I mine and manufacture. But I'm not afraid on jumping into a cheap frig to pvp with people should the situation arise...

These are the reasons they leave EvE and claim it sucks:

Antisocial. Labeling. Telling them THIS IS THE WAY TO PLAY OR IT"S THE HIGHWAY. GTFO scrub!!!

That behavior is really going win friends and influence them. -_-

If a player doesn't want to PvP for the moment, who are you to dictate how he's going to spend his money and time? CCP has missions, and if he wants to do them, it's in the game for players to play.

Most gamers start small to learn the game. They don't jump headfirst into the deep pool. EvE isn't a "nice" game, and unless they get acquainted to it, they'll leave in a heartbeat.

You leave the game because your bored.
5 hour mining ops, are boring.
Blowing things up, not boring.
Blowing up mindless red crosses, boring.

It would seem that if you like to mine then you're a loser and should stop playing..

OP speaks the truth. The carebears and cowards have too loud a voice with new players, and I'm convinced it has a negative impact on subscriptions. There are plenty of fun things that new players can do in this game. Spending hours on end mining or running missions are not among them.

I agree with the OP. My most enjoyable moment as a new player was when I attacked a can flipper and lost my ship. Don't listen to the fearmongers!

Why do you want every player to be like you ?

I don't want every player to be like me. I just don't want any player to be scared of what EVE has to offer.

Why is it that you believe everyone not PVPing is a coward?...maybe some people just enjoy it...why should they do something else than what they enjoy?

In many ways I love the eve community but in this regard...well...

If anyone is scaring away noobs, it's the "PVP in null sec or you're a coward!"-crowd.

its fine if people are cowards in eve, just not when they bleat to have the rules changed to protect them in their cowardice

OP's point is not that these players are trying to change the game, but that they don't want to PvP at all.

The fact that after a major change we still have extremely vulnerable Hulks illustrates CCP attitude towards this 'bleating'.

...I myself wasted my first few months listening to these sorts of cowards, then ended up quitting EVE for six months out of boredom. I only came back when I decided it was time to say **** it and kill all the things. How many just think that EVE is boring and never come back, I wonder?

You leave the game because your bored.
5 hour mining ops, are boring.
Blowing things up, not boring.
Blowing up mindless red crosses, boring.

Your opinion. Are others not allowed theirs?

Your opinion. Are others not allowed theirs?

Yes, if you don't pvp your a carebear.

If you don't want to pvp your risk averse, so your a carebear..

everyone has the right to their own opinion but not to that opinion commanding any respect or to having that opinion not be dismissed as an aberrant product of an infirm mind

people often act like their right to an opinion is a right to people not ignoring their opinion that the president is a lizard man

Of course they are, but that's the whole point, isn't it?
These newbies are not allowed to form their own opinions and instead get their heads stuff full of hyperbolic, uninformed, and often directly incorrect information that teaches then all the wrong lessons and makes then quit for reasons they never learned were untrue.

Yes, if you don't pvp you're a carebear.
If you don't want to pvp your risk averse, so you're a carebear.

...that does not mean that all differences of opinion involve equally valid opinions, which is what you're trying to imply...

...
that does not mean that all differences of opinion involve equally valid opinions, which is what you're trying to imply...

What people find enjoyable is a person thing. It is decided on a personal level.

I have no interest in climbing K2... other think differently. I would quit such a task because I don't enjoy it.. other have a different opinion.

Why isn't their personal choice valid?

Why isn't their personal choice valid?

People confuse the right to have subjective preferences with the right not to be told they're provably wrong about objective issues.

Because it's very commonly uninformed.

Not eating peas because green meat gives you brain cancer is not a valid choice GÇö at best, it's just nonsensical; at worst, it's self-deception.

The original quote was in part..."5 hour mining ops, are boring."... and then stating that is why they quit. I know players who like it. Enjoy it. Log on just to do it.

Some people actually like to mine. I don't see it, but they do it.. been doing it for years.

If they enjoy it, who can say otherwise?

Yes those people exist. Would you say most human being enjoy that? No. Yet most new eve players are put through that experience.

Like if I say Apple pie is better, and you say cherry pie is better, well, that's just, like, your opinion man...

And what about new players being put through a PVP experience and leave because of it?

There's more to EVE than just shooting players.

The original quote was

If I like cherry pie and you like apple... and we both get a choice... then all is good.

If you like to PvP and I like to mine... and we both get our choice... than all is good.

If I like apple, but get stuck with cheery... that isn't good.

And what about new players being put through a PVP experience and leave because of it?

That's not the corp fault, that's the individual persons fault. They believed whatever a corp said and didn't question it, got bored, didn't use their own initiative to find out other game activities. That's their fault.

Yes those people exist. Would you say most human being enjoy that? No. Yet most new eve players are put through that experience.

Besides, if you go through the tutorials (which you should as a new player) they show you all the things you can do in EVE...theres no excuse for not trying out these other things.
You join a high sec mining corp, find out "hmm mining isn't so fun for me" you leave the corp "hey wait, didn't the tutorial say something about exploration, maybe I should try that".

Problem solved...new player stays in the game...it's not that hard and it's got nothing to do with carebears.

No its not, you were lied to. Why would you question it? "Yea they shoot things I guess that sounds legit." "Oh so shooting things is a one sided gangrape, i guess im done here." You now have no reason to expect anything else from this game. I don't blame people who quit after their first shot because who wants to invest another 10 hours to try again?

And what about new players being put through a PVP experience and leave because of it?

Sounds like a Sheeple in a trust-all-authority mindset. They were gonna fail this game anyway so no loss.

...
mining is an objectively boring activity and the opinion that...

Move around the little spheres in some magic way and then shoot some red boxes with a high likelihood to find nothing. GRIPPING GAMEPLAY.

Here it is... in my opinion...Eve the game has large parts of it that are boring.

It is the social interaction in this game that makes all its part shine. Mining ops in many Corp are just that social events.

I get a disturbing feeling that only what you say is the right answer in this regard.
I know it may be difficult, being so awsome and extremely right that you are, but just try to imagine other people having fun in other ways than you...it may hurt, but try!

Fun?

Good for you. Why didn't you address the actual point in that post: that you don't know apple from cherry but say that you like one over the other because you're opposed to animal crueltyGǪ

We are talking about a video game here.

In a single player game I play for 3 hours, get bored, then get told I have to play another 3 to get to the good part.
No sane person would bother.

Now we are talking about a video game where you spent 10 hours to a few weeks bored, then get told you have to spend even MORE time to get to the good part.

Move around the little spheres in some magic way and then shoot some red boxes with a high likelihood to find nothing. GRIPPING GAMEPLAY.

To a new player do you really wanna hang out with a bunch of neckbeards talk about **** while you watch a laser shoot a rock?

they should make those little red crosses actually cross when they get blown up and write you teary diatribes, really meaty character assassination stuff.

They make their own women? Is that even legal?

Is that why people rat in 0.0?

I'm starting to wonder if this isn't about you wanting all the new players in low sec so you can blow them up instead of fighting someone with experience.

It's on the same level as carebears in noobcorps telling new people to never go to lowsec
because they'll die fast and that's bad. Instead of teaching them, they just tell them to avoid it.

... Low Sec is in desperate need for content for newer players and incentives to keep people interested in an area of space that has some of the best pvp experiences bar none.

I'm certain (most) newer players would find being the nasty bad guy more intriguing than collecting rocks...

I don't want every player to be like me. I just don't want any player to be scared of what EVE has to offer.

...Most new people get FORCED into...

...the major downside is that low is tricky.

I find that often times when new players look for corporations they get sucked into a high sec corporation run by carebears. I had multiple internet friends try Eve and go join their other internet friends doing missions, I try to convince them that they are not experiencing what the game really has to offer, they ignore me, and quit the game saying its ****.

Carebears are killing Eve by sucking up players and protecting them. "JOIN OUR CORP WE TEACH U TO PLAY" "OK GO COPY FITS OFF BATTLECLINIC AND NEVER EVER GO INTO THE PVP ZONE U DIE INSTANTLY." "HEY THIS WEEKEND WE GONNA RUN MINING OP IT FUN FOR 5 HOURS." "NEED ISK? ONLY WAY TO MAKE IS TO DO MORE MISSIONS, SALVAGE MY MISSIONS 4 ME K?"
"OH NO A WARDEC EVERYONE LOG OFF YOU WILL DIE."

discuss.

TL;DR
Carebears bore noobs and make them quit. Being risk averse isn't fun.
Some people like being carebears, whatever. Most people don't and that is why most noobs who enter Eve get bored by joining one of these corporations.

EDIT: Im not forcing my playstyle on anyway so save your tears, im just saying that new players aren't getting what they signed up for most the time when they leave the tutorial and find a highsec corp which leaves them with a bad taste in their mouth.

For me, that is what makes it fun.

Things You Can Do
Choose a Career GÇô How do I make money? What defines my pilot character? EVE is a game where you arenGÇÖt set in your ways, so itGÇÖs more of a pointer to the type of character youGÇÖd like to be. Career is used here as a GÇ£style of playGÇ¥ as opposed to an actual choice you must make in the game. If you found that you like mining in the Crash Course, you may want to read up on being a good miner, and tailor your character toward that. If itGÇÖs PVP that you hunger for, aim that way.

Explore - Now that you know the basics, explore EVE! There is an entire galaxy of systems, thousands of people to encounter, and no end to the possibilities you can navigate through. Destiny is yours to create. Bookmark places that you find of interest, so that you can come back later.

Things You Should Not Do

Listen to people that tell you that characters of only a few weeks and with less than a million SP are worthless in PvP. Just search a little longer for the right corporation and you will be able to learn the ropes of PvP pretty soon. Easily accessible T1 frigates like the Rifter, Incursus, Punisher and Merlin are flown with great effect by veteran players.

Keep In Mind
When in doubt, ask: other players in local, advice channel, EVElopedia, EVE forums, submit a ticket. There are lots of ways to ask for help, or to get a simple answer to a question. If someone laughs at your question, label them a jerk and target them for destruction. Most people in the game are happy to help.

EVE offers a harsh universe. Everything is on the stakes, unless it's in your personal hangar. Be very careful whom to trust. EVE has a great tradition of scams, corporate theft and backstabbing in general. It's part of the game. This video might give you an impression how CCP sees their universe.

posting in a stealth Nerf carebears thread.....1.1 out of 10.

Most new players want to pvp, and the experience after the tutorial does not enable that. They get sucked into carebear corps.

So, OP, evidently you are an alt of someone who isn't a carebear. So why not go into the recruitment channel and get all these new players into your alliance or big corp and show them the things carebears are doing wrong? Wait... what's that? Your big alliance or corp won't accept new players? Go figure... where are they supposed to learn your style of play then? Think a bit before you blame someone who really isn't the problem.

New people will die rather quick in Lowsec. Not even an opinion...a fact.

New players lack the experience, knowledge and skill to operate there.

A number of people in my Corp (including myself) tried it early on... destruction followed.

I have three toons there now, but I know more now. Not enough, but more.

New people will die rather quick in Lowsec. Not even an opinion...

GǪa myth. New people die there as much as anyone else do since lowsec life and death is not a function of age. Survival has to do with company and care GÇö both of which a newbie can avail himself of.

That's exactly the kind of idiotic ****

Yes, a new player who moves to lowsec will lose ships. As will an older player who moves to lowsec. Losing ships is...

What?
Are you serious? Antisocial labeling?

You leave the game because your bored.
5 hour mining ops, are boring.
Blowing things up, not boring.
Blowing up mindless red crosses, boring.

GǪa myth. New people die there as much as anyone else do since lowsec life and death is not a function of age. .

...My standard advice to all new players is rather simple: if anyone ever says GÇ£don't try X until you have [skill/ship/SP] YGÇ¥, you know beyond any doubt that the person is clueless about X because nothing in the game works like that. Along with such insipid nonsense as the old GÇ£train to VGÇ¥ advice, it's the worst kind of newbie griefing and really should be a bannable offence.

...But in reality it is the fact that they have to have patience in this game that scares off most people. Most people in MMOs now are used to putting in a solid weekends hard work and being half way to the endgame content these days.

Shouldn't you try not to contradict your self so quickly?

Go tell a new player to run Incursions when they are one month old.

That's exactly the kind of idiotic **** that we're talking about.

They make their own women? Is that even legal?

And to the op: enjoying mining dosnt mean I've failed at pvp.
I'm starting to wonder if this isn't about you wanting all the new players in low sec so you can blow them up instead of fighting someone with experience.

you can always hangout in your starter school for a while. some of them have stuff on and they have the advantage of not having to worry about wardecs, so folks can PvP or carebear or both.

the major downside is that low is tricky.

Best way to learn a game -- and why high-sec exists -- is to do it step-by-step. Learning how to fly. Learning the UI. Learning the lingo to even communicate.

0.0 is advanced gameplay. No way how it's sliced, it's where the vets play.

Each player is their own. Each will learn on a time scale to themself. Each will see the process differently.

The first "won't someone please think of the children!" post I've seen on a freaking video game forum.

Ever.

Wappler ...


OPs point isn't the usual **** you talk about, although you like to see exactly that.

Nobody in this thread here is forcing anybodies playstyle onto anybody else.

What he's talking about is denial of realization of possibilities.

The very fact that new people have no idea what's going on
and have full trust in what the older people, from the very corp they have joined, tell them.

It's on the same level as carebears in noobcorps telling new people to never go to lowsec
because they'll die fast and that's bad. Instead of teaching them, they just tell them to avoid it.

That's the issue. Not showing new people the possibilities and forcing them into a specific
train of thought. Most highsec corps really *are* crap. If any of you wappler (that's an Austrian insult, btw)
really cared, you'd talk to more new people out there and you'd find a LOT of them in corps
that mostly don't care or try to force them into THEIR playstyle ... which is EXACTLY what you guys complain about.

But you only complain about it if the "PvP"ers talk about it ... and not the other way round.


I even have a factual example from a guy ingame.

Once, in Osmon, there was this guy in a carebear salvaging corp called Pro Synergy.
I can't forget that name, because it's sounds seriously gay. lol

Anyway, that guy asked me if we could team up and gank something ... and so we did.

The consequences out of this were that the alliance chat heated up 300%, once they saw the killmail.
People demanded him to be removed from the corp, the CEO apologized to our victim and sent him
DOUBLE the amount of his loss, which was one of these shiny new frigates, i can't even recall.

People like them, not actually accepting the realities of the game, are the issue. It doesn't matter if you
prefer PvE or PvP ... what matters is that everybody should simply understand the reality of the game,
but many people don't !

Many people deny new people actual gameplay, either by telling them their biased views ...
... (and thus spreading them) ...
... or by completely denying certain playstyles to them.

Now comes the "then he can find a better corp" argument ... and i wished it was true,
but it simply isn't that easy. It isn't. I know you don't believe me, but i have talked to MANY new people
and there are MANY highsec corps out there that are simply CRAP, with crappy CEOs and crappy goals,
teaching new people CRAP about the game ... or only half of what it's worth ... or not teaching them at all !

That's not my personal opinion, it's paraphrased of what the other people tell me.
A really good highsec corp, that actually teaches their members well,
that doesn't FORCE A SPECIFIC PLAYSTYLE ONTO THEM, (PvE!)
and that is open minded toward anything one can do in EvE ... is *rare*.

It's the *exception* !


And here's the killer:

Most new people get FORCED into mining or running missions, because there aren't enough people showing
them that they DO NOT HAVE TO DO THIS ! At all ! I'm serious ! But ... and that's a big BUT ... reaching these
new people, once they've started going that road, is HARD, because they already got pushed into this
specific direction, OR because there are *actual* carebears talking crap against those who try to bring new
people into other directions besides mining and running missions, which a LOT of new people don't actually enjoy !

That's the real issue ! And i KNOW it is, because i ACTIVELY tried finding out wtf is going on with
so many new people mining and running missions ... and it's NOT because they enjoy it !

Nobody can say he enjoys something before he did it for the first time !
Causality and stuff ! Doesn't work that way, you know !

It's because it was the first thing shown to them ! They might actually enjoy "PvP" more,
but once pushed into a certain direction, it's hard to push people into another !

Besides people ingame as examples, i have an actual reallife friend who i brought into EvE.
I've told him not to start with mining/missions, but left him do his thing. He wanted to.
So he started canflipping (i really didn't tell him to do that) and now he sits in a lowsec corp,
not playing with me, "enjoying" sitting in gatecamps for hours doing nothing until some
moron in a freighter MIGHT show up ! That's saddening, btw.

Killing a freighter in a gang was his first BIG enjoyment (huge pile of ISK) and now he's
ignorant about anything else, because THAT'S what he enjoys and he completely blocked
the fact that he might actually enjoy other things too, if he just TRIED them !

His case is so bad, i can't even bring him to join me up in highsec to gank something,
because he's completely blinded by his past experiences.

TL;DR:

New people lack the realization of possibilities,
because there are other people working against it, intentionally or not !


I win this thread, now GTFO !


(edit: holy ****, that felt good. I wanted to get that off my chest for a long time ^_^)

[]GǪand the problem is that if they get caught up in a carebear corp, they will not learn those things properly. Oh, and no, the reason highsec exists is not to teach people to play the game.

...Weird, I posted my post at 01:18 and a reply already prequoted and answered in less than 10 minutes...


Who made you God to decide?

Who made you so omnipotent to get into all the brains of every human and say, "this is how it's done"?

That's called: delusional thinking.

If they want to be a "carebear", it's none of your business. You're not paying for their subscription.

You can control how you play, not others.

People aren't bots.

...TLDR: In summary, boost lowsec resources, add scaling gateguns = more carebears risking their lives for profit = more carebears becoming not-carebears.

Who made you God to decide?

Who made you so omnipotent to get into all the brains of every human and say, "this is how it's done"?

If they want to be a "carebear", it's none of your business. You're not paying for their subscription.

You can control how you play, not others.

People aren't bots.

GǪoh, and with a proper skill plan, you could get into incursions in about a month, but it would be such a hyper-specialised character that I wouldn't suggest it to a newbie anyway.

My standard advice to all new players is rather simple: if anyone ever says GÇ£don't try X until you have [skill/ship/SP] YGÇ¥, you know beyond any doubt that the person is clueless about X because nothing in the game works like that. Along with such insipid nonsense as the old GÇ£train to VGÇ¥ advice, it's the worst kind of newbie griefing and really should be a bannable offence.

Are you going to ban yourself?

[
I doubt you will find much success in a starter corp doing pvp, you need isk and some help to be successful at pvp.

No. Why would I?

I disagree with this because I think the PvP combat in eve is terrible. It's almost always completely one sided, there's never really a good fight involved. And the boredom factor of gate/wormhole/station camps where waiting hours on end for one insta-lock alpha killmail is considered 'fun.'

0.0 is advanced gameplay. No way how it's sliced, it's where the vets play. That's not the environment for new players, in a skill based game, and the player doesn't have the skills to be but cannon fodder.

i and my three thousand friends started off as a raw newbie in 0.0

So you were just trolling. Got it.

i and my three thousand friends started off as a raw newbie in 0.0

Blob fleet, and the first try you guys were chased out of Dodge -- with the tail inbetween the legs -- and were left to playing NPC docking games...defeated.

So much for that as a example to teach the new players that "anyone can do it".

Do you bother to read what you write? In one breath you want people banned for talking about needing skill to do something... in the next you talk about a skill plan need to do Incursions.


Tippia- "...and with a proper skill plan.. "

Trippa - "...if anyone ever says GÇ£don't try X until you have [skill/ship/SP] ..."
"...it's the worst kind of newbie griefing and really should be a bannable offence..."

Blob fleet, and the first try you guys were chased out of Dodge -- with the tail inbetween the legs -- and were left to playing NPC docking games...defeated.

So much for that as a example to teach the new players that "anyone can do it".

Do you bother to read what you write? In one breath you want people banned for talking about needing skill to do something... in the next you talk about a skill plan need to do Incursions.

...(like the thread earlier claiming all shuttles can zip through without getting hit, then claiming needing Evasive Manuevuering IV, when confronted)...

Some people think PvP is boring. It's just like a mindless FPS shooter - you gain nothing except frustration. It's ******* sad that people actually complain about "carebears" when they are paying customers just like you, and can do whatever the hell they want. If they want to quit? Ok. PvP? Good. Missions, mining, etc.? Right-o

When some individual tell the lie that if is all safe and full of flowers

Some people think PvP is boring. It's just like a mindless FPS shooter - you gain nothing except frustration. It's ******* sad that people actually complain about "carebears" when they are paying customers just like you, and can do whatever the hell they want. If they want to quit? Ok. PvP? Good. Missions, mining, etc.? Right-o.

It seems like some of YOU people are so damn bored in the game that you pay to troll the forums all day.

...What I'm saying is exactly that: you don't have to wait until you're in a 4bn pirate battleship with all-V skills before you dive into incursions GÇö if you really want to, you can probably do it in about a month (I would probably advice against it, though, since there are so much else to try in the beginning, and it is kind of a specialist field to get into so early)...

...The advice is still the same: don't wait until you have [whatever] before trying. Try today, and if it works, great! If it doesn't, figure out why and fix it.GǪ

[quote=Zak Breen]
It's not you mining or running missions that this is about, it's you telling newbies that they can't do anything except mine or run missions and choking their ability to have a good time in this video game that this thread is about.

which temporary setback at the hands of an alliance we then crushed

In February 2009, the Band of Brothers alliance was administratively disbanded. Goonswarm claim to have engineered this, stating that the action was taken by a disgruntled lead director as a 'rite of passage' to join Goonswarm. In addition, Goonswarm claim to have stolen a large amount of BoB assets. While one BoB source has denied this claim, another stated that an investigation was underway with regard to a possible infiltration of the alliance.

I did an Incursion at two months in a Drake... they let me in out of charity. It was fun, but I was not effective.

Soloing in lowsec for a two week old is death.

Notice training isn't an issue, unless they want to brag about it to show THEY have the skills (like the thread earlier claiming all shuttles can zip through without getting hit, then claiming needing Evasive Manuevuering IV, when confronted).

It's not you mining or running missions that this is about, it's you telling newbies that they can't do anything except mine or run missions and choking their ability to have a good time in this video game that this thread is about.

.. new players don't know what htey wantGǪ

How did you crush BoB again? I'll even use a source you guys would think is more "fair" (calling yourselves "noble"?) ...

http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Band_of_Brothers



So much for a crushing defeat by n00bies via PvPing. Just enter the back door and pull a plug.

So what? You were doing it, and you had fun. Everything else is just silly GÇ£must have VGÇ¥ elitist nonsense.
Also, why did you let anyone else dictate your gameplay?

Soloing in lowsec for a two-year old is just as much death. The difference is that the two-week old has no bad habit he has to unlearn; no expensive ships to replace; and he'll have an abundance of source material to learn from.

In other words, and once again: age is not a factor in survival. If anything, he'll survive far better far sooner than the two-year old (and most likely pick up a few contacts that he can build a career with, which is much less likely for the older character). Either way, waiting until GÇ£you're readyGÇ¥ just means you will never be ready. Try today.

Knock, knock...no one is.

It's a tradition in gaming to let gamers play as they want. It's a very Libertarian concept so cherished.

If they want to play PvE, their choice. If they want to PvP, their choice.

It isn't for YOU to decide.

...And look, another CSM candidate...

It's a tradition in gaming to let gamers play as they want. It's a very Libertarian concept so cherished.

If they want to play PvE, their choice. If they want to PvP, their choice.

It isn't for YOU to decide.

What makes you think you know what 1000's of different individuals want?

Are you going to honestly argue that between a two year old and a two week old... the two week old has the advantage?

Good thing I never claimed anything of the kind, then..

some morons don't train a x2 core skill to level three/four early on because highsec bads/npc corp chat tells them ~perfect yield/refine~ is a thing that somehow matters and they lack the critical thinking abilities to examine what they'll actually need to succeed in this game

see op for more information on this topical issue

You have done it consistently through this threat. Saying new players don't know what they want.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

You have done it consistently through this threat. Saying new players don't know what they want.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

by definition new players do not know what they want because in eve online, a fiendishly complex game, they do not know enough to make an informed choice

perhaps you should think a little harder next time

So you know what all of the new players want.

GǪand if you had actually read the post you were responding to, you would have noticed that none of what you said was relevant

So you know what all of the new players want.

What is it?

Is this by your definition?

Did I mention anything about what new players will be doing?

by definition new players do not know what they want because in eve online, a fiendishly complex game, they do not know enough to make an informed choice

perhaps you should think a little harder next time

...new players don't know what htey want...

you've been having a lot of trouble with the concepts here so we're going to walk before we run

you understand now that a new player will, by definition (they are new) lack the knowledge to make informed choices about what they want to do in eve, correct

or do you choose to assert they actually know how everything works and can make an informed choice themselves

Specifically, you said GÇ£It's a tradition in gaming to let gamers play as they want.

And if you're into babying players to do this or that now...who is the carebear now?

They will make mistakes. But to learn you have too make mistakes.

Learning 101.

Did you write this?

And that's not telling to be ABC

you've been having a lot of trouble with the concepts here so we're going to walk before we run

you understand now that a new player will, by definition (they are new) lack the knowledge to make informed choices about what they want to do in eve, correct

or do you choose to assert they actually know how everything works and can make an informed choice themselves

If they're going to be a miner, and want to succeed at it, you bet they'll be getting those skills up.

And you aren't helping them by holding their hand, wiping their rear, and telling them what's a "good boy" is in EvE...by dictating your idea of what is proper to YOU.

Yes. What I didn't write was any kind of claim that I know what people want, which, no matter how much you try to twist it, is not the same thing so you can stop with your strawman right there.

The carebears

It's not complex. Players want to promote it as some thinking game. But I can guarantee you there's more Johnny on the spot decisions to do in Starcraft, than EvE (and that IS an eSport and been so for over 10 years now).

And if you're into babying players to do this or that now...who is the carebear now?

They will make mistakes. But to learn you have too make mistakes.

Learning 101.

...after all prioritising 'perfect yield' over 'not getting killed' would be completely idiotic, right

You claim to know that new players didn't know what they want.

Can't go around acting tough and then all of the sudden soooooooo concerned about babying the gamer "because he doesn't know what he's doing".

The gamer has to learn on his own, not having a mouthbreather yelling "RED X IS ALL THAT MATTERS...SCRUB!!!"

None of this matters one iota to the discussion at hand, whether you're right or he is.

Yes, because it's pretty simple to figure out that they don't.

Here are two bowls, A and B. You have no idea what's in them because you've never seen them before. Which one do you want?

i see, so in addition to your incredibly inept understanding of 0.0 you are not terribly clear on the concept of complexity

Oh, yes it does.

His premise is the first time Goonies attacked BoB et al they were n00bs. He was trying to claim "hey, you don't need to be skilled", and didn't mention the details.

I provided the details to show it not only failed, the only way Goonies defeated BoB in the end, isn't even by fighting...it was an inside job of booting the corps out of the alliance and taking assets.

And those skills a new players won't learn anyway, until he's accustomed to the culture and TRAINED.

Irrelevant because that is not the situation.

Most players are not blindly buying a product. The make a choice base on what the know or believe. The enter the game with a conception of what they would like or might be fun. Whether the product delivers is a separate issue.

actually you shut up immediately when questioned on the details presumably

goonswarm became the most successful alliance in eve history

...I'm acting concerned that new players, who GÇö by virtue of being new GÇö don't know anything about the game and thus are easily tricked into learning the wrong lessons about how the game works. If they end up in corps that are full of players with a limited, distorted, often even incorrect understanding about game mechanics and options, then they will never be able to make an informed choice about their gameplay. They're being, as you call it GÇ£babied into doing this or thatGÇ¥ without the ability to actually decide for themselves because they are never given the information needed to make those decisions...

How old are you? Seriously.

How you type alone says you're a young one. Someone more inclined to value intelligence than wisdom (as kids don't have wisdom yet).

Now do you see how foolish you're coming across?

A smart alec kid, still wet behind the ears, trying to tell an elder what is or isn't education.

You failed in even your premise. You're like the others of your set, "pewpewpew" is all that matters. Brain dead, ePeen, junior high non-sense.

Devs have to protect yourself FROM yourself in games.

Yes. The worst form of carebear nonsense.

While I agree a player should be aware, tank his ship and not be AFK... he should not live in fear of losing a ship. Risk vs reward. Given a chance mining in lowsec or 0.0 is more profitable under the right conditions, but there is risk.

A good Corp should be teaching risk/reward. When where and how to use ships and loadouts.

It isn't wrong for a miner to choose to max out his mining capability as long as he evaluates the risk/reward.

To me this is the biggest failure I saw in mining corps.

I dictate my own content. You may lead Goonies around by the nose, you don't dictate to me.

That's the difference.

my friend, we can all see that you repeatedly shy away

[quote=Bi-Mi Lansatha]

GǪexcept that in EVE, it delivers. In two ways (or often more). Which one do you pick?

This is true, but it's not all the newbie is ignorant of.

The newbie usually knows next to nothing about which skills are most important and how best to prioritise, and is vulnerable to being fed bad advice by NPC corp chat and horrible corps.

Getting a newbie to train the core spaceship skills benefits everything they might choose to do in the future, and impressing the idea that level three in most skills is very achieveable in a week and level four an excellent short-term goal is very important. Even better is making sure they understand that becoming good at something takes only a short time for a huge bonus while being perfect at something takes a very long time for a tiny bonus.

Like your risk/reward bit it's all about opening opportunities for the newbie and letting them know of the options available to them and what to prioritise whatever it is they're doing

And it's also something bad corps and NPC chat don't do.

The newbie usually knows next to nothing about which skills are most important and how best to prioritise, and is vulnerable to being fed bad advice by NPC corp chat and horrible corps.

a newbie, as a newbie, self-evidently does not know enough about the game to make an informed choice...

You can't know that . You can guess than many don't know and many do, but you can know their motivations.

Nobody is dictating anything. There *are* plenty of highsec corps out there who
ruin the game for people without these new people actually knowing this.

You're desperate to save face, Evil?

Communication is critical here, and if you can't communicate well, you lost the PR war.

And for that, I take no prisoners.

See "carebears" specialize in other more important skills...