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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Regolis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
40
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Posted - 2013.04.26 00:07:00 -
[481] - Quote
My previous post listing the weapons was to show how Beam lasers of every class are virtually identical to rails except for tracking. The Tachyon is the odd man out. I'll come back to that. What I really want to address is whether or not CCP believes that a 50% tracking increase means 3x power usage. Because in the end that is what it comes down to.
The Tachyon, if you read the table, is 1 step above the Megabeam and 425mm rail. So I'm going to take on the argument all the way around. Where is the Medium and Small tachyon weapons? I keep hearing "Lasers do more damage". Umm no .. not from that table I put up they don't. Better tracking, yes. Which may equate to better damage, but it's not a cut and dried damage modifier. Which if you've been paying attention, the equivalent railguns actually have a higher damage mod.
So give me my medium and small Tachyons. Reduce beam power costs to double the equivalent rail and balance the Tachyon class weapons at 2.5 to 3x the rail cost.
Once THAT is in testing we can give you a better idea on the cap costs. Because if your next endeavor is to strip the -10% cap per level off of all Amarr ships then we'll play this game 3-4 more times.
You cannot homogenize capacitors on all the ships and leave 1 race with guns that use 3x of another race. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
455
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 06:29:00 -
[482] - Quote
I can't help that feeling changes like these are gradually making beam lasers and railguns more and more similar. There seems to be very little setting them apart other than their damage type, and that seems wrong.
Can't Amarr ships just be given more powergrid to fit the turrets they're supposed to fit? The Oracle already fits these just fine, it's the Armageddon, Apocalypse, and Abaddon that have trouble.
And to address the capacitor cost--I think the cost should remain high and if anything, Amarr ships should be given a smaller capacitor that regenerates faster to compensate (like a built in capacitor flux coil). It should be an even exchange and their overall capacitor strength should be similar to other battleships. It's not unfair if lasers hit harder than other weapons. Pulse lasers already hit like autocannons even though they have considerably higher range - a little higher dps might still be in order just because autocannons are sort of a low-damage weapon anyway. Beam lasers should hit significantly harder than railguns, like 25% harder. You give an Amarr ship a capacitor cost reduction, it should be the equivalent of giving another ship a damage boost. But if you give the Amarr ship a damage boost without capacitor cost reduction, then it's a powerful long-range attack ship that can't fire for long periods of time. Those have plenty of use too. Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Naso Aya
EVE University Ivy League
24
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 06:54:00 -
[483] - Quote
Abaddon will be the new brawler maller- why fit lasers when you can fit blasters?
As for the Abaddon/Oracle, I do like that set up more. |
Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
18
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Posted - 2013.04.26 07:02:00 -
[484] - Quote
My current biggest gripe is that our weapon systems have huge penalties (fitting for tachs; cap use for everything else) and aren't much better, or are on essentially equal footing with other weapon systems. If I'm going to have big penalties, then I want them to be kick-ass guns. if not, then bring the penalties to be manageable and not a non-starter for the race. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
456
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 09:59:00 -
[485] - Quote
I don't see a problem with blasters being viable on an Abaddon. Pulse lasers will have quite a bit more projection but with a MWD and webifier you could capitalize on the higher DPS of blasters.
Leskit wrote:(fitting for tachs; cap use for everything else) Don't you mean fitting for tachs and cap use for tachs? Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
28
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 11:13:00 -
[486] - Quote
These changes are good but there are other difficulties with lasers that remain to exists. With upcoming changes every amarr BS turn into pure laser ship. This means that our ability to cause different damage types than em / thermal is almost completely taken away (I do not include geddon, and yes drones still exists). This will cause that amarr ships are easy to predict in paper-scissor-rock PVP which makes lasers not good favorite when it comes to PVP, eve PVP is about picking up right fights for you and amarr ships are way too easy to predict what damage we can inflict and what damage you should deal to us. This hinders us also in PVE, lasers are bullshit if you are not shooting amarr faction or their pirates or drones.
I considered this issue and I believe that there might be possible solve to this issue without breakign anything that exist yet making lasers not OP but more unique weapon system by modifying how the heat sinks work.
Right now Heat Sink II gives 10% damage increase and 5% rate of fire bonus. Boosting raw DPS by 15% including increase of cap consumption by 5%. This boost is to RAW damage. Which is far from the real damage applied to target. Usually its possible that big chunk of this RAW damage gets killed by tank resistances. T1 armor has about 65%-45% EM/thermal resistance depending on your skills making in most cases 50%~ of your damage sink straight to damage resistance. So only 50% of the true DPS is applied. This may confuse many people that does not consider damage types and resistances!
I consider current heat sink design bad why?
- It forces CCP to buff laser damage beyond other weapon systems to balance the applied damage to target. This is very bad for several aspects because simple minded people do not understand why lasers have justified damage buff!
- Every heat sink actually increase the nightmare cap use of lasers that is already enough
My suggestion how to improve and make laser system more unique and more balanced to other omni damage weapon systems (drones, missiles, projectiles) without screwing the damage type of lasers. Is that instead of buffing raw damage of lasers damage and RoF, heat sink should actually give lasers ability to penetrate through tank resistance. Making it so that it would give lets say 15% damage pierce to heat sink ii (stripping old bonuses away giving it equal 15% damage increase its now). So say your opponent has 50% damage resistance with piercing laser effective resistance would be calculated 50%*(1-(1*15%))= 42.5.
Why laser resistance piercing is good idea in my opinion?
- It brings lasers more in line with other weapon system, laser raw damage could be more easily to be balanced with other weapon system.
- It would make lasers more viable weapon system in PVP. Without changing resistance balances of ships.
- It would improve lasers in use of PVE. That lasers ship could be more easier to be flown against mob types with HIGH em/thermal resistance
- It should be rather easy to implement
- It would make laser system yet more in line with existing weapon systems but still more unique compared to other weapon systems in eve. Respecting the fact that Amarr is laser ship race.
Real values should be still be considered. This is simply an idea that should be still reformed and checked it would not overpower lasers! |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 11:15:00 -
[487] - Quote
Regolis wrote:
TLDR: Until you get to battleship sized turrets there is parity between Beams and Railguns except for the abusive power costs.
You're right. To retain parity Tachyons should be removed. 425mm rails and Mega Beams follow the progression, and then the laser boats get to fit a gun with ~14% more range and ~8% more damage but very high fitting requirements. Oh, and the big rails lose more tracking compared to small and mediums than big lasers do (their tracking is 'correct' relative to the Tachyon, not the Mega Beam that is otherwise their equivalent).
So really, large laser boats get a special weapon that's better than the best Hybrid - if you can fit it.
Now, where you do have a case, IMO, is that even with Mega Beams the Apoc will still need CPU and PG mods/rigs to fit everything. Needing a cap booster is simply like everyone else needing to carry ammo, so it's not totally unfair. Needing to add CPU and PG just to fit a standard TII fit with perfect skills, OTOH, is unreasonable.
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Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
111
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 12:29:00 -
[488] - Quote
when i first thought heard of the heatsink mod i thought it would be some sort of cooling device a la RL... so with that in mind i would suggest that heatsink - bonus to OH duration of lasers and reduces OH damage to guns - cap reduction usage of lasers -slightly higher damage bonus than normal to comp for losing ROF bonus
This way you're not forced to use extra cap with ROF increase .... makes the name make sense and helps with cap usage. 'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place..... where is the TD missile change?-á ,...projectiles should use capacitor. |
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries
129
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 12:36:00 -
[489] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:when i first thought heard of the heatsink mod i thought it would be some sort of cooling device a la RL... so with that in mind i would suggest that heatsink - bonus to OH duration of lasers and reduces OH damage to guns - cap reduction usage of lasers -slightly higher damage bonus than normal to comp for losing ROF bonus
This way you're not forced to use extra cap with ROF increase .... makes the name make sense and helps with cap usage.
Instead of all the other changes, your suggesting changing the heat sink mod (which only works with lasers anyhow) to reduce cap usage more than it offers a rate of fire increase, as well as benefiting overheating?
I actually like this. Turn heat sink not so much into a damage extender, but a force multiplier. If our weapons use less cap and we're able to overheat more, we would increase overall damage capabilities extensively. If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that? |
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
28
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 13:22:00 -
[490] - Quote
Jonas Sukarala wrote:when i first thought heard of the heatsink mod i thought it would be some sort of cooling device a la RL... so with that in mind i would suggest that heatsink - bonus to OH duration of lasers and reduces OH damage to guns - cap reduction usage of lasers -slightly higher damage bonus than normal to comp for losing ROF bonus
This way you're not forced to use extra cap with ROF increase .... makes the name make sense and helps with cap usage.
Well my intention was to rework Heat sink modules that already exists. Because I believe that pure RAW EM/thermal damage increase is not the way to go. It simply makes lasers to stand out from other weapon systems so people think its OP weapon system when most of our damage sinks into native resistances. It would be major changes and needs more thought for sure but I think that piercing / ignoring damage resistance is only way to go to balance lasers.
What comes to the RoF, current heat sinks should already compensate this cap use that the bonus RoF causes. I also consider it silly that medium slots are commonly used for cap modules, so when you fit AB, MWD, EW, whatever active module to your mid. You lose 1 med (possible 20% cap recharge, injector, battery..). And included to that you gain activation cost of the active item. So in reality we lose way more cap than just the inclusion that these active mods add to the fit. That makes it Amarr very difficult to fit any med (activated) modules due to cap use. Since you lose the possible 20% regen and gain cap consumption. |
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Apostrof Ahashion
Viziam Amarr Empire
110
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 15:03:00 -
[491] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Why are we even talking about PVE? Balance is about PVP.
While this is true, it still stands that new pilots who go amarr are severely screwed compared to all other races. When you have 10+ million skillpoints it really does not matter what race you fly in incursions/missions but the new players that go amarr will wish they had something to fly before they train 10 skills to lvl 5. And no matter what you end up doing in your Eve career chances are you are gonna start it as high-sec mission runner.
Its easy to say cap stability is stupid, i can finish a mission in 5 min and thats enough cap. But take in the consideration that new guy will have 3 min of cap not 5 and will do 3x less damage and will probably have to run its repper all the time to stay alive. And that is seriously ****** up. |
Leskit
The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est
20
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 16:38:00 -
[492] - Quote
Theia Matova wrote:... I consider current heat sink design bad why?
- It forces CCP to buff laser damage beyond other weapon systems to balance the applied damage to target. This is very bad for several aspects because simple minded people do not understand why lasers have higher raw damage just to keep up against the resistances!
- Every heat sink actually increase the nightmare cap use of lasers that is already enough
My suggestion how to improve and make laser system more unique and more balanced to other omni damage weapon systems (drones, missiles, projectiles) without screwing the damage type of lasers. Is that instead of buffing raw damage of lasers damage and RoF, heat sink should actually give lasers ability to penetrate through tank resistance. Making it so that it would give lets say 15% damage pierce to heat sink ii (stripping old bonuses away giving it equal 15% damage increase its now). So say your opponent has 50% damage resistance with piercing laser effective resistance would be calculated 50%*(1-(1*15%))= 42.5%. Why laser resistance piercing is good idea in my opinion?
- It brings lasers more in line with other weapon system, laser raw damage could be more easily to be balanced with other weapon system.
- It would make lasers more viable weapon system in PVP. Without changing resistance balances of ships.
- It would improve lasers in use of PVE. That lasers ship could be more easier to be flown against mob types with HIGH em/thermal resistance
- It should be rather easy to implement
- It would make laser system yet more in line with existing weapon systems but still more unique compared to other weapon systems in eve. Respecting the fact that Amarr is laser ship race.
Real values and formulas should be still be considered. This is simply an idea that should be still reformed and checked it would not overpower lasers!
I fly amarr too...but by extension, you're also asking for minmatarr hail/barrage to cut through t2 amarr explosive/kin resistance, void/null to cut through caldari thermal/kin resistance, and scourge fury to cut through gallente kinetic resistance simply because there's a base high resistance? Remember that unless you're tanking specifically for em/therm, amarr cut right through caldari and t1 shield ships. That's a dangerous road, my friend, making exceptions. |
Regolis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
48
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 17:01:00 -
[493] - Quote
Before we revamp the entire weapon system, lets get some balance. Then we can look at changing things.
1) Either remove the Tachyon or add Small and Medium class Tachyons. 2) Balance Beam lasers to 2x the cap cost of the equivalent Rail and Tachyon class at 2.5 to 3x of that rail. 3) Ship capacitors need to be in-line with the what the weapon systems require. 4) Make the fittings looser for the ships or the weapons. No one should have to have max fitting and cap skills to fit their T1 guns.
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Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
310
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 17:20:00 -
[494] - Quote
Regolis wrote:2) Balance Beam lasers to 2x the cap cost of the equivalent Rail and Tachyon class at 2.5 to 3x of that rail. 3) Ship capacitors need to be in-line with the what the weapon systems require. 2) Why 2 times ? What is the objective of such a number ?
3) What is "in line" ? Isn't it in line already ? |
Regolis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
50
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 17:41:00 -
[495] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Regolis wrote:2) Balance Beam lasers to 2x the cap cost of the equivalent Rail and Tachyon class at 2.5 to 3x of that rail. 3) Ship capacitors need to be in-line with the what the weapon systems require. 2) Why 2 times ? What is the objective of such a number ? 3) What is "in line" ? Isn't it in line already ?
2) Because that would be the equivalent of a 30% reduction in cost to beam lasers which would make them self-sustainable. 3) In line with what the developers expect a ship to be able to field with. (IE giving a ship a micro warp drive bonus but making it's cap too small to support said drive is not in line.
I also notice you love cherry picking your arguments to try to catch people out. I note that you have not replied at all to the medium and small line of weapons not having a Tachyon class weapon and you seem to be fine with that. But whenever someone mentions large weapons you set yourself of fire trying to compare it to the 425mm Rail. The data I posted about them was easily available in game had you wanted to look. You didn't. You wanted to make an argument about rails.
Anyone who is even remotely objective can see there is a SERIOUS issue with lasers. Stop trying to derail the issue. |
Kenshi Hanshin
Karl XII's Dragoner Apocalypse Now.
40
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 17:55:00 -
[496] - Quote
Regolis wrote:Bouh Revetoile wrote:Regolis wrote:2) Balance Beam lasers to 2x the cap cost of the equivalent Rail and Tachyon class at 2.5 to 3x of that rail. 3) Ship capacitors need to be in-line with the what the weapon systems require. 2) Why 2 times ? What is the objective of such a number ? 3) What is "in line" ? Isn't it in line already ? 2) Because that would be the equivalent of a 30% reduction in cost to beam lasers which would make them self-sustainable. 3) In line with what the developers expect a ship to be able to field with. (IE giving a ship a micro warp drive bonus but making it's cap too small to support said drive is not in line. I also notice you love cherry picking your arguments to try to catch people out. I note that you have not replied at all to the medium and small line of weapons not having a Tachyon class weapon and you seem to be fine with that. But whenever someone mentions large weapons you set yourself of fire trying to compare it to the 425mm Rail. The data I posted about them was easily available in game had you wanted to look. You didn't. You wanted to make an argument about rails. Anyone who is even remotely objective can see there is a SERIOUS issue with lasers. Stop trying to derail the issue.
The issues with lasers as I am sure you know span all three sizes.
Cap usage is prohibitively high for new players. I originally flew amarr. However, I stopped as I couldn't fire and tank simultaneously. The small T1 lasers ate up far more cap than a T2 small reper. Lasers cap use should be higher than hybrids but not 3x!
CCP, please adjust the lasers to have a more reasonable amount of cap use at least! Maybe consider reducing cap use of lasers and increase the cap-regen of amarr ships as they are meant to racially field lasers. That would make sense, I think. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
310
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:08:00 -
[497] - Quote
Regolis wrote:2) Because that would be the equivalent of a 30% reduction in cost to beam lasers which would make them self-sustainable. 3) In line with what the developers expect a ship to be able to field with. (IE giving a ship a micro warp drive bonus but making it's cap too small to support said drive is not in line.
I also notice you love cherry picking your arguments to try to catch people out. I note that you have not replied at all to the medium and small line of weapons not having a Tachyon class weapon and you seem to be fine with that. But whenever someone mentions large weapons you set yourself of fire trying to compare it to the 425mm Rail. The data I posted about them was easily available in game had you wanted to look. You didn't. You wanted to make an argument about rails.
Anyone who is even remotely objective can see there is a SERIOUS issue with lasers. Stop trying to derail the issue. Please do not try to assess what I want to do or what I think, because you fail miserably at it and you're being offensive.
I said countless of times that the problem of beams wasn't cap or fitting but an existential problem, and that tachyon are basicaly an oversized module which would be OP if you don't need all the cap and fitting it require. The same would be true for smaller beams.
I also already talked about a possible solution for beams, but nobody commented on it.
As for your need for sustainable beams, I won't go again in a pve argumentation.
So again, I'm against a greater buff to tachyon, because that would endanger railguns ; and don't really know if fitting and cap use of mega beams should be reduced further or not, because this isn't their real problem. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
310
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:18:00 -
[498] - Quote
Kenshi Hanshin wrote:The issues with lasers as I am sure you know span all three sizes.
Cap usage is prohibitively high for new players. I originally flew amarr. However, I stopped as I couldn't fire and tank simultaneously. The small T1 lasers ate up far more cap than a T2 small reper. Lasers cap use should be higher than hybrids but not 3x!
CCP, please adjust the lasers to have a more reasonable amount of cap use at least! Maybe consider reducing cap use of lasers and increase the cap-regen of amarr ships as they are meant to racially field lasers. That would make sense, I think. 1) Youg player problem is a falacy. My first lvl4 missions BS was an amarr BS, and I had no problem doing these missions considering the poor skills I had. And if I swaped to amarr, that was because of the poor state of railguns.
2) I yet have to see ONE amarr ship suffering from these cap issues to the point it's a bad ship with no use. Since the rebalance, all amarr ships are no less than excellent. Yes, amarr have cap problems, but all races have problems, like range, speed, robustness or whatever. Asking for amarr to be cap easy is asking for homogenization. |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:19:00 -
[499] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Regolis wrote:2) Because that would be the equivalent of a 30% reduction in cost to beam lasers which would make them self-sustainable. 3) In line with what the developers expect a ship to be able to field with. (IE giving a ship a micro warp drive bonus but making it's cap too small to support said drive is not in line.
I also notice you love cherry picking your arguments to try to catch people out. I note that you have not replied at all to the medium and small line of weapons not having a Tachyon class weapon and you seem to be fine with that. But whenever someone mentions large weapons you set yourself of fire trying to compare it to the 425mm Rail. The data I posted about them was easily available in game had you wanted to look. You didn't. You wanted to make an argument about rails.
Anyone who is even remotely objective can see there is a SERIOUS issue with lasers. Stop trying to derail the issue. Please do not try to assess what I want to do or what I think, because you fail miserably at it and you're being offensive. I said countless of times that the problem of beams wasn't cap or fitting but an existential problem, and that tachyon are basicaly an oversized module which would be OP if you don't need all the cap and fitting it require. The same would be true for smaller beams. I also already talked about a possible solution for beams, but nobody commented on it. As for your need for sustainable beams, I won't go again in a pve argumentation. So again, I'm against a greater buff to tachyon, because that would endanger railguns ; and don't really know if fitting and cap use of mega beams should be reduced further or not, because this isn't their real problem.
No, you are acting in obvious self interest to keep an unfair advantage on your own side of the field. To you, beams being at all viable, because right now they are not, means that railguns will go poof and disappear from being used in this game.
So basically you are fighting against us having two sets of viable because weapons you have some disassociation problem with railguns. I mentioned this pages ago, but you are little more than a typical gallente whiner.
Look beyond your irrational inferiority complex about Tachyons, and ask yourself the question of why having more viable guns in this game is a bad thing. Because it's not, options are and always will be a good thing.
An opinion not based in facts is called a delusion. That is what you currently suffer from. Fix it. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
310
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:24:00 -
[500] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:An opinion not based in facts is called a delusion. That is what you currently suffer from. Fix it. Please, tell me more about delusion and how bad tachyon will be.
BTW, your whole post is about yelling at me and explaining how a bad guy I am. Why don't you show me some facts instead ?
And how should I write that the problem of beams is not fitting or cap use for you to understand ? |
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
31
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Posted - 2013.04.26 18:32:00 -
[501] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:An opinion not based in facts is called a delusion. That is what you currently suffer from. Fix it. Please, tell me more about delusion and how bad tachyon will be. BTW, your whole post is about yelling at me and explaining how a bad guy I am. Why don't you show me some facts instead ? And how should I write that the problem of beams is not fitting or cap use for you to understand ?
Because every time someone has shoved facts in front of your nose, you obfuscate, spin, change the subject, or outright lie?
Yes, you are deluded. You seem to think that one particular kind of gun, Tachyons in particular, actually being capable of being used by more than the one ship in the game that can fit it (Oracles, for the unenlightened) is a problem.
I think you're insane. Tachyons can't be even fit without dedicating a disgusting amount of RCUs and a CPU mod, which gimps both your tank and your dps.
Basically, it can't even be fit by anything in it's size category.
How is that a good thing?
All we want is to be able to actually fit and use our own guns. The only benefit beams have is tracking. (rails have better damage, 15-30% more range depending on ammo choice, less than 30% the total cap use, better choice of damage types, less powergrid cost, less cpu cost, etc).
Are all those somehow equal to a bit more tracking? If your answer is yes, then there is no point in any of us talking to you anymore, because you would have proven you do not intend to have a reasonable discussion. I have suspected you are only here to troll us, so bite the bullet and fess up. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
310
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:43:00 -
[502] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:All we want is to be able to actually fit and use our own guns. The only benefit beams have is tracking. (rails have better damage, 15-30% more range depending on ammo choice, less than 30% the total cap use, better choice of damage types, less powergrid cost, less cpu cost, etc).
Are all those somehow equal to a bit more tracking? If your answer is yes, then there is no point in any of us talking to you anymore, because you would have proven you do not intend to have a reasonable discussion. I have suspected you are only here to troll us, so bite the bullet and fess up. You are mixing mega beams and tachyons, which are two VERY different things.
Oh, and please, tell me more about the better choice of damage types of railguns ! :D Also, railguns use more CPU than tachyon ; a lot more.
And slightly more tracking ? 40% (for tachyon, the worse tracking beams, which outclass other LR weapons in any way) is slight ? Ok...
Delusion you said ?
Do you even know what I proposed for beams ? Do you even take the changes in the first post into account ? |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:46:00 -
[503] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:Kaarous Aldurald wrote:All we want is to be able to actually fit and use our own guns. The only benefit beams have is tracking. (rails have better damage, 15-30% more range depending on ammo choice, less than 30% the total cap use, better choice of damage types, less powergrid cost, less cpu cost, etc).
Are all those somehow equal to a bit more tracking? If your answer is yes, then there is no point in any of us talking to you anymore, because you would have proven you do not intend to have a reasonable discussion. I have suspected you are only here to troll us, so bite the bullet and fess up. You are mixing mega beams and tachyons, which are two VERY different things. Oh, and please, tell me more about the better choice of damage types of railguns ! :D Also, railguns use more CPU than tachyon ; a lot more. And slightly more tracking ? 40% (for tachyon, the worse tracking beams, which outclass other LR weapons in any way) is slight ? Ok... Delusion you said ? Do you even know what I proposed for beams ? Do you even take the changes in the first post into account ?
Kin/Therm is a much better combo than EM/Therm. Nuff said my friend.
And now Tachyons aren't beams?
What category are they found in under the market tab then? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
31
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 18:53:00 -
[504] - Quote
Quote:Do you even know what I proposed for beams ? Do you even take the changes in the first post into account ?
No, and I don't care either. You have proved time and again that the only thing you are interested in is making sure railguns aren't challenged in usefulness by beams. You have said so time and again.
Have you actually bothered to read from the dozens of posts who went to the test server and said that the bandaid fixes none of the issues? Have you listened to all the people who have said "not enough" "too little, too late", or all the rest?
No. Then why on earth should I actually give consideration to anything you say? Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Regolis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
53
|
Posted - 2013.04.26 19:02:00 -
[505] - Quote
I posted data for large weapons. I got complaints. I posted data for Small through Large and Mr Gallente had nothing to say. Because it's hard to argue with the numbers. I bring up a recommendation for how "I" believe things should be rebalanced and he starts frothing again.
Reality check. If you can't fit and fire your guns with level 3 skills then there is a problem with both the weapon fitting and the ship.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TACHYONS.
Megabeams will not fit with level 3 fitting skills. That is a problem. Cap usage on beams is so bad that without 5 in cap skills 5 in controlled bursts and 3-5 cap fitting modules on your ship that you CANNOT maintain your weapons.
So .. lets invert it ... lets triple the cost that rails require and see how that works.
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Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
31
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Posted - 2013.04.26 19:07:00 -
[506] - Quote
You know what, Bouh?
Let's start this over. Forget anything else either of us have said.
Consider the following:
Each primary weapon system in this game has two versions, long range and short range.
One race, Amarr, has long range weapons that are both too difficult to fit in relation to their usefulness, but also are entirely outshined by the long range weapon of any other race on their own merits.
Why is this acceptable?
If this is not acceptable, what can be done to that weapon system (and only that weapon system) to make them viable to be used again? Because currently, they are not used. Their popularity and their usefulness are one and the same.
One caveat. Your answer cannot be any of the following:
Nerf pulses so beams are more attractive. Beams are fine. (if you're here to make that argument, then we are done) Give Amarr access to other weapons systems.
Basically, you are not allowed in any seeming to be avoiding answering the direct questions. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
312
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Posted - 2013.04.26 22:28:00 -
[507] - Quote
Regolis wrote:I posted data for large weapons. I got complaints. I posted data for Small through Large and Mr Gallente had nothing to say. Because it's hard to argue with the numbers. I bring up a recommendation for how "I" believe things should be rebalanced and he starts frothing again.
Reality check. If you can't fit and fire your guns with level 3 skills then there is a problem with both the weapon fitting and the ship.
I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT TACHYONS.
Megabeams will not fit with level 3 fitting skills. That is a problem. Cap usage on beams is so bad that without 5 in cap skills 5 in controlled bursts and 3-5 cap fitting modules on your ship that you CANNOT maintain your weapons.
So .. lets invert it ... lets triple the cost that rails require and see how that works.
Balance is made with all5, because that's what people will have to abuse this weapon, and because noobs aren't eternaly noobs. There is plenty of modules or implants to work around your noobyness if you have to. There is nothing against an OP module.
And as I said already, I manage to do lvl4 missions with a laser BS with 4 months of skills, hence this is possible ; hence the noob argument is irrelevant. BTW, you can't ask for something to work as good with low skills as with all5. That don't make any sense.
And finaly, do whatever you want with regular beams, as I said, their problem is not capacitor or fitting ; though you have more margin for a real buff (aiming at fixing the problem) if you don't do it. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
312
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Posted - 2013.04.26 22:54:00 -
[508] - Quote
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:One race, Amarr, has long range weapons that are both too difficult to fit in relation to their usefulness, but also are entirely outshined by the long range weapon of any other race on their own merits. That's absolutely wrong.
Please, start your argumentation on real facts, not on the fantasy you build around amarr performances.
Pulse are the best weapon in a wide range of engagement. Large pulse especialy are better than any other weapon between 15 and 60km. There is absolutely nothing better than pulse in these range.
On the Apoc, pulse hit up to 80km with a dps competitive with LR weapons up to this max range.
In fact, pulse have almost the widest range of engagement in the game.
Also, pulse are actually easy to fit on amarr ships.
Hence, beams are actually largely overshadowed by pulse.
On the other side of the spectrum, you have railguns. Why railguns ? Because they are, exactly like beams, an LR dps weapon.
Lore wise, railguns are supposed to be the best LR weapon. But where does LR start ? That is the actual question which determine how railguns will live.
If you think pulse are fine and railguns could live well farther, then you can increase the range of beams to make them more powerful up to the distance you want railguns to be. If you think railguns are fine, you can reduce a little the range of scorch where beams will live up to the railguns range. You can also do a little of both. Yet, none of these solution is really attractive. A better solution would give a real something to beams, but what could that be ? The only solution I see is a prolongation of pulse, with about the same damage as they currently have (beam ; or a tiny little more) but a lot more tracking (like pulse/scorch). Fitting and cap could now stay as they are planned for odissey, because they would now worth them, may be. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
629
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Posted - 2013.04.26 22:56:00 -
[509] - Quote
Regolis wrote:...Megabeams will not fit with level 3 fitting skills. That is a problem. Cap usage on beams is so bad that without 5 in cap skills 5 in controlled bursts and 3-5 cap fitting modules on your ship that you CANNOT maintain your weapons... I have to ask: What the hell is a person doing in a battleship with level 3 basic skills, especially an Amarr ship?
Whenever someone asks me about starting skill queues, my answer invariably is "decide on a ship/class and train everything related to a minimum of 4, optimize by going to 5".
What you are really commenting on is CCP's efforts to make the "end-game" ever more accessible to newcomers by reducing skill requirements and what not, giving the poor sods the idea that BS are viable after just a few months of unorganized queuing.
On topic: - Lasers in general: With more and more ships losing the cap bonus there has to be an option other than injectors to bridge the chasm, prev. suggested batteries and/or doubling rig effect but anything goes as far as I am concerned. - Pulses are by and large fine. Reasonable fittings, cap drain could be balanced a bit better against dps but a minor adjustment, overall good performance. - Beams need something to make the sacrifices needed worthwhile. Dps can only be increased by increasing alpha (or cap use!) so not applicable, fittings need to be high'ish as LR guns are harder and Amarr grid is generally larger so we are left with improving tracking as in "there is no doubt what you want if tracking at LR is a priority!"
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Regolis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
53
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Posted - 2013.04.26 23:32:00 -
[510] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: I have to ask: What the hell is a person doing in a battleship with level 3 basic skills, especially an Amarr ship?
Whenever someone asks me about starting skill queues, my answer invariably is "decide on a ship/class and train everything related to a minimum of 4, optimize by going to 5".
What you are really commenting on is CCP's efforts to make the "end-game" ever more accessible to newcomers by reducing skill requirements and what not, giving the poor sods the idea that BS are viable after just a few months of unorganized queuing.
On topic: - Lasers in general: With more and more ships losing the cap bonus there has to be an option other than injectors to bridge the chasm, prev. suggested batteries and/or doubling rig effect but anything goes as far as I am concerned. - Pulses are by and large fine. Reasonable fittings, cap drain could be balanced a bit better against dps but a minor adjustment, overall good performance. - Beams need something to make the sacrifices needed worthwhile. Dps can only be increased by increasing alpha (or cap use!) so not applicable, fittings need to be high'ish as LR guns are harder and Amarr grid is generally larger so we are left with improving tracking as in "there is no doubt what you want if tracking at LR is a priority!"
I so agree with what you're saying. At the current time though someone with level 3s in skills can jump into a Gallente or Caldari ship and actually make it work. If you try that in Amarr ships the guns alone break cap. If CCP is lowering the bar to get into the ships you have to think that they WANT lower skill players in those ships. The Amarr situation makes those ships unusable to lower skill players. |
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