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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard Amarr 7th Fleet
194
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:00:00 -
[61] - Quote
Din Chao wrote:Arline Kley wrote:CCP Rise wrote:We feel convinced that in their currently proposed state, Amarr battleships would have likely caused problems for lower skillpoint pilots trying to earn a living in Eve You mean "Definitely caused problems" And 10% powergrid isn't really enough. Only drops a T2 Tach to 3735, leaves a minimum PG of 26892.. Lower skillpoint pilots don't use T2 Large guns.
Lower skilled pilots shouldn't be flying BS's..... |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
69
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:06:00 -
[62] - Quote
Regolis wrote:Reading comprehension -1 mate ...
Your post makes absolutely no reference to staying in scale with Dual Beam / 350mm scaling. I'm still not certain what you are even getting at.
Fitting and cap usage on one weapon type can't be compared to another - they're different weapon systems? |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
180
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:09:00 -
[63] - Quote
Meh. I was kind of hoping there is going to be tracking nerf on long ranged pulses. It sure gona suck using sig tanking fleet concepts in the future with all the sig increases and tracking bonuses. Well whatever VOV. Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Regolis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:17:00 -
[64] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Your post makes absolutely no reference to staying in scale with Dual Beam / 350mm scaling. I'm still not certain what you are even getting at. Fitting and cap usage on one weapon type can't be compared to another - they're different weapon systems?
350mm Rail 1 activation 15.4 425mm Rail 1 activation 21
Dual Heavy Beam Laser 1 activation 35 Mega Beam 1 activation 65
Power use difference from 350mm rail to Dual Heavy Beam is a little more than double for the same stats This is an acceptable amount of cap usage.
Power use difference from 425mm Rail to Mega Beam 1 is a little more than 3 T-H-R-E-E times the difference This is way too high even with a 20% reduction
This is the point I'm trying to make ... not sure I can explain it differently... |
Vibramycin
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
11
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:19:00 -
[65] - Quote
I'm sure this'll go over like a lead balloon, but why not play the huge cap use of lasers up as a differentiating feature of the turret types? That's sorta the point, right? eg, slight improvement to damage application or slight damage increase, instead of the proposed cap reduction...
Inspire interesting fitting dillemas... Lasers are noticeably better before you start fitting other mods, but while rails (just for example) can cheerfully slot a tracking computer, the laser users have to debate another cap booster.
It's easier to balance by homogenizing, but I'd argue that you get a more engaging game by differentiating and making your players think harder.
Wait should that be think harder or whine harder? |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
123
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:24:00 -
[66] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Such an exciting week here on features and ideas! We are continuously making adjustments around the new battleships, both based on our own assessments and on your feedback. This topic is partly the result of that feedback, and also partly due to more internal testing and discussion. We feel convinced that in their currently proposed state, Amarr battleships would have likely caused problems for lower skillpoint pilots trying to earn a living in Eve. There were many avenues we could have chosen to address this problem, including a re-design of the Apocalypse, but we feel very happy with it's direction and wanted to keep it if possible. So, instead we are proposing the following: -10% capacitor need for Large Pulse Lasers -20% capacitor need for Large Beam Lasers -10% powergrid need for Large Beam LasersThis also acts as a continuation of CCP Fozzie's work on energy turrets during Cruiser Tiericide which you can look at here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155001&find=unreadJust like the Battleships themselves, public testing will be helpful in showing whether or not these changes are on target. Thanks for all of your input! CCP Rise Seriosuly. You guys need to get on the same message. Last month, Fozzie is saying "oh we love the cap use bonuses are here to stay and lasers are inherently buffed" and today you're saying "we're doing away with cap bonuses and nerfing cap use but you get ship bonuses for lasers because they're weak." It's not only confusing for two members of the "balance team" who are allegedly tasked with doing the same thing to turn around and do the very opposite, it's also VERY difficult to keep up with two very different stances--from the authorities--on the same topic.
Just figure out a consistent plan and both of you go with it.
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
261
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:26:00 -
[67] - Quote
Bouh Revetoile wrote:What about medium railguns ? :-( exactly |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
261
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:29:00 -
[68] - Quote
Regolis wrote:Mr Floydy wrote:Your post makes absolutely no reference to staying in scale with Dual Beam / 350mm scaling. I'm still not certain what you are even getting at. Fitting and cap usage on one weapon type can't be compared to another - they're different weapon systems? 350mm Rail 1 activation 15.4 425mm Rail 1 activation 21 Dual Heavy Beam Laser 1 activation 35 Mega Beam 1 activation 65 Power use difference from 350mm rail to Dual Heavy Beam is a little more than double for the same stats This is an acceptable amount of cap usage. Power use difference from 425mm Rail to Mega Beam 1 is a little more than 3 T-H-R-E-E times the difference This is way too high even with a 20% reduction This is the point I'm trying to make ... not sure I can explain it differently... now compare them to arties :)
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Regolis
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:33:00 -
[69] - Quote
I guess I'm going to have to go back and cover old ground. The major reason lasers use so much power was the following: 1)Lasers have unlimited ammo (no longer true unless you use T1 crystals) 2)Beam Lasers do more damage (well not really the comparable rails actually have higher damage mods)
So why again do lasers use 3x more cap then a comparable rail gun?
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Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
69
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:39:00 -
[70] - Quote
Lasers are effectively infinite ammo in a combat situation. Yes if you run missions all day you'll have to buy new ones. But realistically, no-one ever loses a fight in Eve because they've ran out of Crystals :p (bar odd situations - ones which they've had long run out of other weapon ammo)
Beam lasers seem to track better than rails (Tachyon's aren't far off of dual 250mm rails) and do more damage. That's why they are whores for cap usage. |
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Retmas
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
16
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:39:00 -
[71] - Quote
This Whole Thread wrote:
WAAH OMG WEAPON SYSTEMS ARE DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER AND USING STUFF ISNT EXTREMELY EASY TO DO ON ANYTHING I WANT
bloody seriously. yall wonder why nullsec wants to **** on you all day. if the game wasnt challenging and difficult, it would suck. get over yourselves.
yall wanna whine about **** that's incredibly broken, counter-intuitive to use, and generally makes people want to ragequit, go walk a couple miles in a high-level industrialist's shoes. get back to me when the blisters heal.
thanks for the changes CCP Rise, please dont take it personally but i find them to be, at most, bland. folks fit and used lasers before, they'll fit and use them afterword. it's a bump in the playing field, not a change in it.
/me goes back to his bitter indy corner |
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries
9
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:45:00 -
[72] - Quote
If these changes go through, I will happily apologize to CCP Rise for my tone in the Amarr BS category.
That said, I'm still upset at losing the Armageddon, but here's my fingers crossed we'll get a Navy Knockoff. |
Cage Man
185
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:50:00 -
[73] - Quote
Definitely going to help making structure bashing oracle's more cap stable... and it aint going to hurt my NM either +1 Oh PLEASE!!! CCP Fozzie Can I haz a Navy moa....... |
kyrieee
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
118
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:51:00 -
[74] - Quote
Arline Kley wrote:CCP Rise wrote:We feel convinced that in their currently proposed state, Amarr battleships would have likely caused problems for lower skillpoint pilots trying to earn a living in Eve You mean "Definitely caused problems" And 10% powergrid isn't really enough. Only drops a T2 Tach to 3735, leaves a minimum PG of 26892..
Back in the day when people actually used sniper BS you would often only fit 7 Tachyons because that's all you could get on, and Apocs were still fine because Tachyons. Nothing's stopping you from doing the same today. Everything doesn't have to be homogenous. |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
69
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:54:00 -
[75] - Quote
Ruze wrote: That said, I'm still upset at losing the Armageddon, but here's my fingers crossed we'll get a Navy Knockoff.
I'm hoping, that it stays basically as it is - albeit fine tuned. Sexy looking laser blasting 5x heavy using machine of death |
Retmas
Grim Determination Nulli Secunda
16
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Posted - 2013.04.12 20:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
Ruze wrote:If these changes go through, I will happily apologize to CCP Rise for my tone in the Amarr BS category.
That said, I'm still upset at losing the Armageddon, but here's my fingers crossed we'll get a Navy Knockoff.
have you not seen the megathron changes? it's a geddon without the wasted high slot or ****** cap bonus.
the new geddon is amazing. the old geddon is the new megathron. |
Novah Soul
Mostly Harmless Mining Corp Peregrine Nation
9
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:01:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Such an exciting week here on features and ideas! We are continuously making adjustments around the new battleships, both based on our own assessments and on your feedback. This topic is partly the result of that feedback, and also partly due to more internal testing and discussion. We feel convinced that in their currently proposed state, Amarr battleships would have likely caused problems for lower skillpoint pilots trying to earn a living in Eve. There were many avenues we could have chosen to address this problem, including a re-design of the Apocalypse, but we feel very happy with it's direction and wanted to keep it if possible. So, instead we are proposing the following: -10% capacitor need for Large Pulse Lasers -20% capacitor need for Large Beam Lasers -10% powergrid need for Large Beam LasersThis also acts as a continuation of CCP Fozzie's work on energy turrets during Cruiser Tiericide which you can look at here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=155001&find=unreadJust like the Battleships themselves, public testing will be helpful in showing whether or not these changes are on target. Thanks for all of your input! CCP Rise Awesome changes. I always had cap issues with my 'baddons, but this should go quite a way towards solving the issues. Thanks much! |
Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
295
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:09:00 -
[78] - Quote
15% PWG reduction for tachyons sounds fair, if not a bit excesive. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Sturmwolke
393
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:17:00 -
[79] - Quote
Well, thats a start at making the Amarr line somewhat more desirable as a solid workhorse. At -12% to -15% PG decrease, you might see some decent Abaddon fits with tachs.
Looking at the PVE context, that'll turn some ships a bit OPed imo .... take a guess, it's not an armor tanker. What's the roadmap for revisiting the other (Navy/T2/Pirate) ships it touches?
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Ashlar Vellum
Esquire Armaments
19
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:18:00 -
[80] - Quote
thx CCP Rise and CCP Fozzie. Pretty nifty at first glance. Will check some numbers in the morning.
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Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Unclaimed.
57
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:31:00 -
[81] - Quote
woohoo!
anything will help. is it balanced? no. anyone who flyes amarr knows u cannot fit a complete rack of tachyons on a bs (without mods.) things are getting a lil betta..
but the cap savings will help. not much, but some.
the weapons are just WAY ot of wack.
CRYSTALS! that crystal change that was posted (i have replied too) is bad ass! it still stays within the em/thermal of amarr, but allows us to change frequencies to either heat things up, or give them a sun burn.
they need some more damage. not alot. but right now, 7 tachs without heat sinks will do like 172 dps with radio.
and whats with the tracking bonus? isnt it enough they break? missiles lost their penalty to speed... so that leads me to ask..what actually aims the beam? the crystal or the laser? THE LASER! the crystal focuses the laser for range and damage, but has nothing to do with tracking. thats a product of the laser turret. get rid of the stupid tracking penalty on light. |
Funky Lazers
shin-ra ltd
241
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:56:00 -
[82] - Quote
Is there any chance we get the new Crystals with the new damage type, like Kin? Or at least get crystals with pure Therm damage? Whatever. |
Rina Kondur
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
52
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:59:00 -
[83] - Quote
I'm hoping Crystals can be looked at. As it stands now, lasers are very much a T2 or GTFO weapon platform. Meta lasers are just not a viable option as the damage scales horribly with range. Without your Scorch, you may as well not even use lasers. |
Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
285
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Posted - 2013.04.12 21:59:00 -
[84] - Quote
Regolis wrote:I'm sorry ... let me try that again with those side by side so you can see them
65 GJ vs 21 GJ with close to the same stats besides tracking ... 3250 grid vs 2200 grid would be 50% of the fitting of the 2200 to get to 3250 ...
Maybe your amarr ships have infinite CPU, but that's not the case on gallente ships. Fitting constraint on railguns is CPU, but PG hurt too. Didn't you realized amarr ships had sometimes twice the PG of other ships ? Also, amarr ships have a *lot* more cap than other ships.
As for the other advantages, beams do the same damage, if not more, than railguns, when actually fitted on the hulls, at close range, but with a lot more tracking.
Also, near infinite, instant swaping ammo. That's why the cap cost. |
Zimmy Zeta
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
15305
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Posted - 2013.04.12 22:00:00 -
[85] - Quote
First, thanks for taking a look at energy weapons, it is really appreciated. But while you are at it, could you spare just a little time to take another look at Dual Heavy Beam Lasers and Quad Beam Lasers? Although they are by far the best looking lasers in game, they hardly get used and don't seem to fill any viable role in this game at all. Or maybe I am just stupid and they have a role that I am not aware of - in this case I would be happy if you could tell me how they are supposed to be used. Just think of how bad an average post by me is, and then realize half of them are even worse |
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
41
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Posted - 2013.04.12 22:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
What about them Railguns... |
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
362
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Posted - 2013.04.12 22:21:00 -
[87] - Quote
At the same time will you plz consider giving railguns and beams a better alpha please (not more dps). Just a little - the gap between railguns and beams vs artillery is huge and you can easily buff beams and rails without compromising the artillery advantage...
Anyway good to see you're looking into things. :-)
Pinky |
Naso Aya
EVE University Ivy League
4
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Posted - 2013.04.12 22:24:00 -
[88] - Quote
Pinky Denmark wrote:At the same time will you plz consider giving railguns and beams a better alpha please (not more dps). Just a little - the gap between railguns and beams vs artillery is huge and you can easily buff beams and rails without compromising the artillery advantage...
Anyway good to see you're looking into things. :-)
Pinky
Pretty sure that's the whole goal behind artillery. The adjustments should make Tachyons only 1-2% high on the pwg for the Abaddon, which'll be interesting. |
Pelea Ming
Prostitutes Are Always Wlling
121
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Posted - 2013.04.12 22:39:00 -
[89] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:Naso Aya wrote:Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Also i'm quite sure an Apoc with scorch will still outdps an apoc with tachs at 70 km.. =/ (WHILE being able to fit things like a tank)
Seriously though.. Small and medium beams.. i want some =<
With Scorch, yes, but the strength of an Apoc with Tachs doesn't come from being able to hit things at 70km, it comes from being able to (with the bonus, and aurora) hit things at over 150 km away. Not while having a tank.. Is it unreasonable to want long range weapons to out dps short range weapons at their complete range limit? if you can only hit something at 150k on an Aurora/Tach Apoc, you done already screwed up, that should be MUCH closer to 250k (which means your still sniping at them while they wait for that MJD to recycle... )
As for these changes, CCP Rise, CCP Fozzie, I will respectfully (though perhaps only temporarily) stop pushing my 'Abaddon needs more work' posts on the Amarr BS thread until we can access them for testing on Sisi (btw, I DO want an area I can test it in L4 missions at, never really used Sisi before so I don't know if this is currently an option, yes, I know there will be plenty of pvp testing available though, and I do look forward to that as well :D) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
488
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Posted - 2013.04.12 22:53:00 -
[90] - Quote
For anyone who wishes this change was more exhaustive - part of what was nice about this solution is that it doesn't disrupt any future efforts to look at energy weapons as a whole. That said, the near near future does not contain such a rework, so any suggestions about crystals or other large problems related to the weapon probably won't have a huge effect on our plans for Odyssey.
Hope that for now this makes life a bit more comfortable until we do have the time to come back and look at the whole thing. |
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