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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1005
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Alright, after far too much time, I think we're as close as we're going to get to finished with these.
Before numbers, let me explain what we're going for here. Before Odyssey, the biggest decision related to tech 1 Industrialas was: how much time do you want to spend training (and how much battle badgering do you want to do), and based on the answer you chose one of 4 industrials. Not only did we eliminate that decision in Odyssey by making the prereqs for all Industrials only 1 level of the relevant skill, we also have 12 Industrials in the game, not 4. So what I'm hoping to accomplish here is provide some more depth to the choice of which Industrial is best for you!
The way we're accomplishing that is by setting up 2 distinct roles within each race's industrial line-up, and also making sure that from race to race you have comparable power (rather than just having Itty 5 be king ruler of industrials). One of these roles is focused purely on cargo capacity, sacrificing survivability and speed, and the other gives up cargo for substantially higher base hp and align time along with improved signature radius and base speed.
Unfortunately, while we had some neat ideas, we weren't able to agree on something fun to do with the extra indies that Minmatar and Gallente have without either creating substantial racial imbalance or needing major resources that we would rather commit somewhere else. For now, these ships will be balanced around the others, falling somewhere between the 2 roles described above. See second post in the thread for a more in-depth explanation related to these ships, as well as some other details about this class.
Below I will list the changes for the Industrials focused on speed and tank first, then pure cargo, and finally the leftover awkward bunch.
Let us know what you think!
SIGIL
Amarr Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Agility (was max velocity)
Slot layout: 2H, 4M(+1), 6L(+1); 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 250 PWG(+180), 750 CPU Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 2600(-400) / 21234m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 780(+624) / 1320(+304) / 2400(+1540) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 125(-30) / .88(-.12) / 10500000(-500000) / 12.8(-2.4) Signature radius: 175(-35)
BADGER
Caldari Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Agility (was max velocity)
Slot layout: 2H(+1), 5M(+3), 5L(+3); 1 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 185 PWG(+135), 950 CPU(+200) Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 3700(-425) / 18588m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1440(+1166) / 810(+67) / 2060(+1200) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 127(+7) / .89(+.1) / 10450000(-2300000) / 12.9(-1.1) Signature radius: 190(-30)
WREATHE
Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Agility (was max velocity)
Slot layout: 2H(+1), 5M(+3), 5L(+3); 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 200 PWG(+155), 800 CPU(+200) Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 3100(-200) / 19857m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1140(+1061) / 1080(+337) / 2250(+1469) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 140(+15) / .81(-.19) / 11500000(-1500000) / 12.9(-.0) Signature radius: 155(-5)
Iteron
Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Agility (was max velocity)
Slot layout: 2H(+1), 5M(+3), 5L(+3); 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 215 PWG(+170), 750 CPU(+150) Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 3300(+200) / 21138m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 960(+881) / 1200(+419) / 2600(+1819) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130(+5) / .78(-.22) / 11250000(+1000000) / 12.2(-2) Signature radius: 185(-5)
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BESTOWER
Amarr Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H(-1), 4M, 6L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 90 PWG(+20), 750 CPU Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4800 / 39201m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 160(-35) / 935(-238) / 900(-273) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110(-15) / 1 / 13500000 / 18.7 Signature radius: 215(+5)
BADGER MARK II
Caldari Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H(-1), 6M, 4L(+1); 1 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 80 PWG, 1000 CPU Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 7000(+1750) / 35167m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 680(+132) / 760(-256) / 810(-206) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .93 / 13000000(-500000) / 16.8(-.6) Signature radius: 230(-20)
HOARDER
Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H, 5M(+2), 5L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 80 PWG(+20), 750 CPU(+100) Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 5700(+600) / 36511m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 310(+36) / 825(-191) / 935(-81) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .91(-.09) / 11500000 / 14.5(-1.4) Signature radius: 200(+20)
ITERON MARK V
Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H(-1), 5M, 5L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 85 PWG, 850 CPU Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 6000 / 38433m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 375(-94) / 850(-518) / 970(-515) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 110 / .87(-.13) / 12500000(+750000) / 15.1(-1.2) Signature radius: 220(-10)
=======================================================================================
ITERON MARK II
Gallente Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 2H, 5M, 4L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 190 PWG, 780 CPU Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4600 / 23110m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 800 / 1110 / 2150 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 125 / .85 / 11625000 / 13.7 Signature radius: 185
ITERON MARK III
G... |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1005
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
Before the posting begins, I want to address a few topics that we've been discussing both here in the office and with the CSM. Hopefully this will help to answer some of the more common questions before they even get asked =)
First, something kind of simple: why the Hoarder instead of the Mammoth? This basically comes down to art direction. At earlier stages in this rebalance we considered both removing some ships from the game, and also adding more. Part of that discussion led to art asking that we use the Hoarder rather than the Mammoth as one of the primary Minmatar industrials.
There have been some concerns that the role focused on tank and speed is not actually tanky enough. Its true that they will still be vulnerable to suicide ganks, and easily killed outside of high sec, but relative to their former variations they have gained quite a bit of power. The tank focused role is getting about 50% more base hp than the old iteron 5, and most of it lies in structure where a simple DCU will add a lot of effective points for very little cost. On top of that, they have increased fitting, much better align time, and higher base velocity. Overall this should provide for a real decision when picking a hauler, just remember that at the end of the day its still a T1 hauler.
The CSM particularly has expressed concerns that the class as a whole is becoming too homogenized. I want to assure everyone that I'm very sensitive about this idea as well, and that we all agree there is a lot of value in variation and racial identity. The challenge with industrials is that unlike most other ship classes, their value rests almost exclusively in 1 or 2 attributes (capacity and low slots), so when attempting to add flavor, the reality is that we would simply be limiting actual options. I have tried to preserve as much racial flavor as possible via some slot differences, differences in speed and align time, sig and little things like caldari being the only race with launchers on their industrials. At a higher level, we really do feel that because this class is so specific in function, consolidating all the industrials to one or two ships would probably be the most sensible design, but because we value history and racial flavor, we've left all the ships available and tried to find enough variation to make them each valuable in their own way.
Last, I want to talk a little about the 4 'extra' industrials. These were an incredibly hot topic here at the office, and we considered a really wide range of options for them. In the end, we felt that removing them from the game probably didn't add a lot of value, and would have been a disappointing departure from EVE history, but on the other side, giving them a job that was interesting and valuable but only available for Gallente and Minmatar felt unfair. Our hope is that some time in the near future, perhaps because of new industry development, we will find a home for them that either makes sense with the current assets, or warrants adding new industrial ships to the game to balance out all those Iterons. Until then, they will be a bit marginalized. I hope that because of having real choices within the two new roles, you will see the class as gaining a lot of depth, despite four of the ships falling outside those roles.
Thanks for reading, looking forward to feedback as always. |
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Marco Magnus
Placementcorpii
1
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
I really love the whole ship ballancing that is being done. Keep up the good work
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Siobhan MacLeary
BRG Corp Ocularis Inferno
110
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:20:00 -
[4] - Quote
Why the bonus to Max Velocity on the cargo-spec ships? They're already slow enough to align, why penalize them more? GÇ£Point out to me a person who has been harmed by an AFK cloaker and I will point out a person who has no business playing this game.GÇ¥ - CCP Soundwave |
Schmata Bastanold
Keep It Burning Stupid
829
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Who cares about cargo trucks, post about t2 tiercide and let the nerdragefest begin! I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
713
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
switch the mammoth with the hoarder please. No one wants to fly that ugly monstrosity called the hoarder and it wouldn't make sense that the mastodon has a mammoth hull otherwise. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1532
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Makes sense, I guess.
It'd be nice to have something like a ore hold, or a fitting service on the others, but it would be limiting for anyone but the gallente. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3752
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Siobhan MacLeary wrote:Why the bonus to Max Velocity on the cargo-spec ships? They're already slow enough to align, why penalize them more?
A bonus to max velocity has no impact on align time or time-to-warp. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
3816
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
I figured you would go with 1 tanky, 1 fast and 1 that can carry a lot of cargo. Why not do that with the "extra" indys, and add the 2 missing races sometime in the future. As a stopgap measure, you could have empire corp versions of the amarr and caldari indys that would fill the role for now. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3752
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Give the Mammoth to ORE and turn it into the second ORE Industrial, a specialist ore & mineral hauler. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1212
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:27:00 -
[11] - Quote
i for one welcome our new bestower overlords.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices Yulai Federation
97
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: Last, I want to talk a little about the 4 'extra' industrials. These were an incredibly hot topic here at the office, and we considered a really wide range of options for them. In the end, we felt that removing them from the game probably didn't add a lot of value, and would have been a disappointing departure from EVE history, but on the other side, giving them a job that was interesting and valuable but only available for Gallente and Minmatar felt unfair. Our hope is that some time in the near future, perhaps because of new industry development, we will find a home for them that either makes sense with the current assets, or warrants adding new industrial ships to the game to balance out all those Iterons. Until then, they will be a bit marginalized. I hope that because of having real choices within the two new roles, you will see the class as gaining a lot of depth, despite four of the ships falling outside those roles.
Thanks for reading, looking forward to feedback as always.
Sorry, what do you mean by unfair? There are already a lot of things, like the resist VS repbonus thingie, that's also unfair in most of the cases. The damnation is able to have a proper amount of EHP compared to all other command ships (at which they fail, because staying alive while boosting is their role). A lot of things are unfair already, so a few more won't even be noticed imho :)
Particularly, i could imagine a more offensive (2 turret slots), and a more defensive, and an armor and a shieldtanked hauler for the matar/gaylente line. Sometimes they both can do each kind of tanks (armor/shield pest,cane,etc),why not support that dual-personality of the race here as well... |
Daenna Chrysi
Omega Foundry Unit Shadows Of Betrayal
35
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:32:00 -
[13] - Quote
Oh h*ll no, itty 4 is one of the best indus there is. Also you are removing over 1k hp from the itty 5, how is that going to give it 50% more base hp compared to the old?
What this game needs is more ships, not less. The amarr and caldari need their own mid size indus. While you are on it, give itty5 a proper model, it looks like a long sausage that would snap in two moment it turns.
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Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
33
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: BADGER MARK II
Caldari Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H(-1), 6M, 4L(+1); 1 turrets , 1 launchers Fittings: 80 PWG, 1000 CPU Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 7000(+1750) / 35167m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 680(+132) / 760(-256) / 810(-206) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .93 / 13000000(-500000) / 16.8(-.6) Signature radius: 230(-20)
So will the transport ships be changed as well then? Using the current Bustard stats to compare, it has a higher tank and a smaller sig radius, but hauls less, and moves slower then the new badger mark II. If you buffed the bustards hold to at least match that of the new Badger II, it would give a clear idea to everyone that the T2 transports are better then the T1. Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012. |
Aurora RedNova
OMEGA800
2
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:34:00 -
[15] - Quote
I really hope you grab the Tech2 haulers as next after you are already deep in the matter with tech1. Tech2 haulers need a really big rebalance (deep space transports are not for deep space actually and move like a whale on valium).
Btw. vulnerability of transporters like charon etc for ganks is a REALLY big issue too^^ |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1212
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
ok questions/comments: - what about production costs? will the hoarder be both cheaper and more useful than the mammoth? - why not make iteron III and V the baseline and turn I and II into even cheaper 'throwaway' haulers? - i do not see a particular need to streamline every industrial hull. what's wrong with having some leftover redundancies in a ship class that nobody cares about anyway?
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3752
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Just for reference, Distribution mission cargo sizes:
- 400m3
- 440m3
- 4200m3
- 8000m3
I like that I can choose to run L4 distribution missions in a small, agile industrial. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
410
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:40:00 -
[18] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:switch the mammoth with the hoarder please. No one wants to fly that ugly monstrosity called the hoarder and it wouldn't make sense that the mastodon has a mammoth hull otherwise. I would agree, the Mammoth looks larger and already has the T2 hull. Unless the art department has some secret reason they want them switch it doesn't make much sense.
Also it means everyone who owns a Mammoth (which is anyone using Minmatar industrials) will be selling them and buying Hoarders for no reason other than the art department went "We like this look more". Do you really want to upset every industrialist and Minmatar industrial pilot out there and make ships they already own and use everyday the lesser choice because of someone in art? Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
Azami Nevinyrall
Carbon Circle Tactical Narcotics Team
992
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 11:47:00 -
[19] - Quote
Why not give the other industrials bonuses related to PI materals? I'm not entirely clear on the point of this, but I do have a sudden urge to jump in a catalyst and blow up a miner. Twitter! - @AzamiNevinyrall I'm half expecting a ban for this post. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1006
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:49:00 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:Oh h*ll no, itty 4 is one of the best indus there is. Also you are removing over 1k hp from the itty 5, how is that going to give it 50% more base hp compared to the old?
The iteron 5 loses some hp, but the new Iteron has around 50% more hp than the former Iteron 5.
T2 haulers of course will get rebalance as well, but likely not until after some more pressing T2 classes (let me get done with this so we can do HACs =)
Quote:Sorry, what do you mean by unfair? There are already a lot of things, like the resist VS repbonus thingie, that's also unfair in most of the cases.
As you say, its resist vs repair. In the case of Indies, it would have had to be: resist vs nothing because Caldari/Amarr have no ship. This would have been the only case in the whole game of one race having access to a role that wasn't balanced in some way for the other races with another ship.
Will keep listening about the Mammoth. There isn't an enormous amount of them being used so it felt like it wouldn't be too painful of a transition if it was better for visual direction. I'm less concerned about the continuity with the T2 model, but the differences in cost, and the forced transition for people who were using the Mammoth are real issues. Keep feedback coming and I'll poke around on my side some more.
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Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies Joint Venture Conglomerate
193
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Posted - 2013.06.19 11:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Not sure the agility bonused ones are agile enough to make the bonus worth while - even a battleship without a sensor booster should be able to lock them before they warp.
For such cheap hulls they all appear to haul a lot now.
Fear God and Thread Nought |
Azula Kishtar
Lonely among the Stars
13
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'll continue using the Mammoth. Simply because i think the hull is sexy.
Looks ok otherwise. I agree there isn't a lot to balance around with Industrials without doing something "special" to the redundant versions.
I'm much more excited for T2 ship changes anyway. |
Aurora RedNova
OMEGA800
2
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
Jackie Fisher wrote:Not sure the agility bonused ones are agile enough to make the bonus worth while - even a battleship without a sensor booster should be able to lock them before they warp.
For such cheap hulls they all appear to haul a lot now.
Too much. Maybe you can use them for cheap mineral hauling. But put 15 Tech2 frigs in these ships and THEY WILL get ganked. Let us be honest: You use cloaky tech2 haulers for expensive stuff and everything with aligh time high like hell isn-¦t worth the time. I already use red frog only for bigger stuff because my tech2 bustard is simply so slow that it hurts my nerves too much. I really don-¦t know for what you need a Tech1 hauler with that cargo hold. Throw 2 bcs in them? Will get prolly ganked by some catalysts^^ Somehow I miss the sense for the slower ships with bigger cargohold here. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
717
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:07:00 -
[24] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Will keep listening about the Mammoth. There isn't an enormous amount of them being used so it felt like it wouldn't be too painful of a transition if it was better for visual direction. I'm less concerned about the continuity with the T2 model, but the differences in cost, and the forced transition for people who were using the Mammoth are real issues. Keep feedback coming and I'll poke around on my side some more.
Better for visual direction? How, the mammoth looks awesome. Looks like a wreathe with extra cargo space added. |
Jessica Danikov
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
91
|
Posted - 2013.06.19 12:10:00 -
[25] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Makes sense, I guess.
It'd be nice to have something like a ore hold, or a fitting service on the others, but it would be limiting for anyone but the gallente.
I mentioned this in a previous post (somewhere) but I can see the following Industrial roles:
1: tanky 2: fast - This is a lot less useful. As fast can be covered by a different class. A frigate sized courier 3: big 4: Specialist cargo (ore/gas/ice) 5: Fitting service 6: Fleet hangar
And we already have: 7: Salvager 8: PI specialist cargo.
This all makes too much sense. I don't have anything original to say any more.
T2 Industrials kinda cover the fast aspect with the blockade runners (they align like a frigate), freighters kind of occupy the tanky/big role, but the last 3 are interesting things that could be done with the T1 industrials. In fact, they do rather nicely match up...
Iteron Mk2 has the vents on the side that make it look like an ore hauler. Iteron Mk3 has what look like pressurized canisters and would suit gas. Iteron Mk4 naturally falls into the ice slot. Hoarder looks most suited to being a fitting service/fleet hanger (two go hand in hand, really)- I'd support others wanting the Mammoth being the 'main' large industrial while I'm sure art would love to have the Hoarder be extra-special like that.
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LadyShu
Full Contact Blinky Red Brotherhood
10
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:14:00 -
[26] - Quote
awesome, spend time rebalancing something that is not broken and works fine.
Get your butts to work on t2 rebalancing or do something useful, what about nerfing off-grid boosters, logistics and so on. |
Darth Kilth
Silver Guardians Fidelas Constans
112
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:15:00 -
[27] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
Will keep listening about the Mammoth. There isn't an enormous amount of them being used so it felt like it wouldn't be too painful of a transition if it was better for visual direction. I'm less concerned about the continuity with the T2 model, but the differences in cost, and the forced transition for people who were using the Mammoth are real issues. Keep feedback coming and I'll poke around on my side some more.
Better for visual direction? How, the mammoth looks awesome. Looks like a wreathe with extra cargo space added. I agree with this, the Mammoth is SEXY and should stay the biggest Minmatar industrial.
They are the reason I went with Minmatar Indy and not Gallante or Amarr. |
Jessica Danikov
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
91
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Actually, maybe I do have something original to add- how much work would be involved in making the Iteron series truly modular (a bit like subsystems, but with the cargo holding bits)? They look like a modular hauling system, so why not make it one?
I know it's probably too much effort to be worth the while, but one can dream, right? |
Grarr Dexx
Snuff Box Urine Alliance
194
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:23:00 -
[29] - Quote
Bestower can hold more than an Impel? Lol. What a waste of my ISK. |
Evelgrivion
Calamitous-Intent
251
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Posted - 2013.06.19 12:32:00 -
[30] - Quote
What's the reason for giving them such substantial baseline cargo capacities when compared to the present? Restricting the capacity of an industrial has obvious purpose in restricting player mobility, but I suppose that genie has been out of the bottle for some time now with Warp to Zero and Titan Bridges. |
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