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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
261
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Posted - 2013.06.21 16:45:00 -
[511] - Quote
Altrue wrote:Caldari ships always have the less cargo capacity of their role, yet I heard that it was an industrial race .
You heard wrong. It's a militant corporatocracy race. That's why their haulers are the most tankable historically and "battle badgers" are a thing.
If anything Gallente is the most "industrial".. the lore glorifies Gallente miners and their role in the Federation to support freedom and independence, and freedom means lots of free trade meaning more variety of haulers. |
Ersahi Kir
Infinite Mobility SpaceMonkey's Alliance
195
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 16:48:00 -
[512] - Quote
Nothing is changing.
We have tech I tanky aligny haulers, we have big cargo paper tank haulers, and assorted marginalized extra haulers. Unfortunately, they all suck and are at best stepping stones to the ships that don't suck.
Freighters, orcas, jump freighters, and cloaky haulers are what people are going for. The only reason people train industrial ships at all is because they are a stepping stone to one of these. Nothing in these proposed changes will change this, outside of maybe a few small niches such as distribution missions. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec Invisible Exchequer
171
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:06:00 -
[513] - Quote
Frostys Virpio wrote: Why would a hauler bother with all those different ships when he can buy a Orca/freighter and haul more in a single ship? Thats why there is no specialised bay. A 75K ore bay soulds cool till you understand it offer nothing over an Orca available under a month of training.
COmbat ship of different class have a reason to still be flown because they counter each other. Hauler have one job and it's the same from all calss of hauling ship. Take X from A to B. No matter what X is made of, if you want to carry more, you get a bigger ship.
There are things a battleship will never do like a frig do. An orca can do anything a T1 hauler can do and then some.
Well the Rorqual and Orca are a problem all to themselves.. They need to really be integrated properly into the industrial role and balancing, and atm they are a terrible misbalanced part of the industry class.
Primarily the Orca should be exceptional Booster and Mineral(Ore) low range shipping class, and the Rorq should be a "mini-station" with compression, and even refining, and long range RAW hauling.
The reason you would want a huge range of variety on Industrials, as well as all other ships and game mechanics in EVE is to get away from the WoW optimizing and flavor of the month problem..
Sadly the last 4-5 years CCP have let the pvp community bend things a lot into the flavor of the month philosophy, hopefully the new direction will go back to the old complexity and lateral integration concepts.
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Kel hound
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
45
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Posted - 2013.06.21 17:13:00 -
[514] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Not wanting to use the leftover 4 haulers is quite a bit different from not knowing what to do with the primary ones.
We know that we were very unhappy with their balance, especially in light of the skill requirement changes, so there isn't anything premature about the balance we're giving the 8 base ships. Also there's no reason that dealing with the main group restricts our ability to come back to the others.
Honestly if the choice is leaving a handful of hulls behind or asking art to make more haulers then I think you guys have made the right choice.
I could nit-pick for days over which hull should do which job but when it comes down to it T1 haulers really are just a cheep way to move crap from one place to another. As long as I have the ability to slap a basic tank on and can move a decent amount of junk then at the end of the day I'm a happy camper. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
497
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:27:00 -
[515] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Frostys Virpio wrote: Why would a hauler bother with all those different ships when he can buy a Orca/freighter and haul more in a single ship? Thats why there is no specialised bay. A 75K ore bay soulds cool till you understand it offer nothing over an Orca available under a month of training.
COmbat ship of different class have a reason to still be flown because they counter each other. Hauler have one job and it's the same from all calss of hauling ship. Take X from A to B. No matter what X is made of, if you want to carry more, you get a bigger ship.
There are things a battleship will never do like a frig do. An orca can do anything a T1 hauler can do and then some.
Well the Rorqual and Orca are a problem all to themselves.. They need to really be integrated properly into the industrial role and balancing, and atm they are a terrible misbalanced part of the industry class. Primarily the Orca should be exceptional Booster and Mineral(Ore) low range shipping class, and the Rorq should be a "mini-station" with compression, and even refining, and long range RAW hauling. The reason you would want a huge range of variety on Industrials, as well as all other ships and game mechanics in EVE is to get away from the WoW optimizing and flavor of the month problem.. Sadly the last 4-5 years CCP have let the pvp community bend things a lot into the flavor of the month philosophy, hopefully the new direction will go back to the old complexity and lateral integration concepts.
What diversity? The ships are made to carry X amount of Y from A to B. The optimal way is either overtank to be sure you don't get ganked or overcarry to make less trips. If you remove the Orca possibilities for hauling, people won't make tens of runs in T1 haulers, they will buy a freighter and keep the T1 hauler as stepping stones toward the "real" haulers. You either make themabout equal so people can choose wich one they fly or you give them each a speciality and people buy freighter who can do all. Any amount of good, specialised or not you want to carry in a T1 will fit in a charon.
The only way to keep them revelant would eb to make them better at something than the current king of hauling. If you could carry more ore in a specialised ship than in a generic one, it would work but it has to be done at the upper level because of the current existance of generic 900K= M3 ships already in game. A dedicated ore hauler could have lets say a 1,5 million m3 ore bay. It would be better at it's job than a charon thus warranting it's own existance but this won't happen at the T1 level. |
Klingon Admiral
Black Hole Cluster
28
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:29:00 -
[516] - Quote
Some quick throwing around of some ideas:
1. Number of industrials per race
Three would be a good number in my oppinion, both Minmatar and Gallente have 3+ haulers and a Caldari one could relatively easy be created (Bustard w/ T1 Shaders). Only Amarr would lack a third industrial design. The haulers should be one each of the following categories:
1. Agile/Tanky Haulers 2. "Generalist" Haulers 3. "Specialist" Haulers
2. Industrial specialization
2.1 Agile/Tanky Haulers
They should have the smallest cargo of the bunch and should specialize to either be tanky OR agile. Maybe even forego a cargo bonus altogether and just give them slightly larger base-cargos. The specializations would of course be:
Caldari: Shield Tanky (Shield HP and/or Shield Resists) Amarr: Armor Tanky (Armor HP and/or Armor Resists) Minmatar: Fast agile (agility bonus) Gallente: Efficient agile (largest cargohold, agility bonus, less agile than Minmatar)
Cargo capacity should go: Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar
2.2 "Generalist" Haulers
The industrials we know and love/hate, only in an improved form. They should keep the traditional agility/cargo-boni and offer some sort of balance between agility/tank and cargo, which should lie between 25k and 30k.
Cargo capacity should go: Amarr > Gallente > Caldari > Minmatar
However, Gallente and Minmatar should posses enough agility that they beat Amarr respectively Caldari in the efficency department.
2.3 "Specialist" Haulers
The biggest of the bunch ... as long as you use their additional cargoholds. Should posess a cargo of about 40-50k, with their standard cargobay being really tiny.. My suggestions would be:
Amarr: Ore specilization, tiny cargo + large orebay Minmatar: Fuel specialization, tiny cargo + large fuelbay, albeit no JD Caldari: PI specialization, tiny cargo + command center bay (maybe) + PI goods bay, basically a Primae in good
Gallente: no specialization-specialization, no special bay, but the largest cargobay in the T1 subcapital department, total cargo should be significantly smaller than the other specialist haulers to prevent fotm status |
Aprudena Gist
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:35:00 -
[517] - Quote
Just remove the 4 crap and pointless haulers from the game rather then waste more time on haulers in the future. |
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
342
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:42:00 -
[518] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Altrue wrote:Caldari ships always have the less cargo capacity of their role, yet I heard that it was an industrial race . You heard wrong. It's a militant corporatocracy race. That's why their haulers are the most tankable historically and "battle badgers" are a thing. If anything Gallente is the most "industrial".. the lore glorifies Gallente miners and their role in the Federation to support freedom and independence, and freedom means lots of free trade meaning more variety of haulers.
Well, that's good then, because then obviously Gallente should get the "specialized" haulers for industry, e.g. one with an ore bay and one with a mineral bay. And there are plenty of spare Gallente hull designs that can be assigned to those roles. |
Oraac Ensor
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
245
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:48:00 -
[519] - Quote
Lady Ayeipsia wrote:One thought.... Give us a mid range hauler that is balanced between tank and cargo. As for hull, all we need is an amarr hull.
For gal, use the ity 3. Minmatar, use the mammoth (or shuffle, but you have the spare hull).
For caldari... Use the badger Mrk 2. For the max haul badger, use the mrk 3. The MRK 3 does exist, look at the bustard (t2 blockade runner) it uses the badger Mrk 3 hull, always have. Just reskin it with the standard t1 caldari color scheme.
Them all you need is an amarr middle ground hauler. And I'd be willing to bet there's at least one lurking in the art department's files.
Dersen Lowery wrote:OK, then, how about the Tristan? Gallente have always had one extra frigate. Eh?
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Dave Stark
3205
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:51:00 -
[520] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote: "If you wanted a max cargo hauler, you had to use an Itty V and nothing else; I'm giving you three other options.";
perhaps but the bestower is bigger at amarr industrial IV than the badger and the mammoth are at caldari/minmatar industrial V respectively.
so he hasn't really given you a choice. if you want a "max cargo hauler" you basically have the iteron V if you bothered training gallente industrial V back when it was truly the only option, or train for a bestower. the other two ships aren't options as they're beaten at the role for less SP.
that simply isn't balanced when one ship is better in it's role than it's counterparts and does so with less SP. |
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Frozentank Madullier
Hateful Munitions Totally Consensual
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:55:00 -
[521] - Quote
Do you know how cool it would be if instead of having the Iteron II through IV you could simply purchase the level 1 and then several "addons" and then could adjust the ship on departure. Increasing the volume and mass with each level. Like a semi truck. And you could have additional addons available that when repackaged could fit inside the level 1. So let's say I needed to haul a bunch of ships in one direction, I could take off with an Iteron I with 4 addon modules inside. Fly to Jita, expand the ship into an Iteron V and then load it up.
The fact that only Gallente has it really isn't a problem. It's a tech 1 ship that only requires level 1 skill to fly. We're talking about less than 1 day of training. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
497
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:57:00 -
[522] - Quote
Salpad wrote:Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Altrue wrote:Caldari ships always have the less cargo capacity of their role, yet I heard that it was an industrial race . You heard wrong. It's a militant corporatocracy race. That's why their haulers are the most tankable historically and "battle badgers" are a thing. If anything Gallente is the most "industrial".. the lore glorifies Gallente miners and their role in the Federation to support freedom and independence, and freedom means lots of free trade meaning more variety of haulers. Well, that's good then, because then obviously Gallente should get the "specialized" haulers for industry, e.g. one with an ore bay and one with a mineral bay. And there are plenty of spare Gallente hull designs that can be assigned to those roles.
And all of that would be useless since you can train for an Orca in under 20 days. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
291
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 17:58:00 -
[523] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:. . .so he hasn't really given you a choice. if you want a "max cargo hauler" you basically have the iteron V if you bothered training gallente industrial V back when it was truly the only option, or train for a bestower. the other two ships aren't options as they're beaten at the role for less SP.
that simply isn't balanced when one ship is better in it's role than it's counterparts and does so with less SP. The bolded part is sort of the whole crux of the issues in this thread. Rise is effectively going to replace one outgoing max-cargo ship for another. It's the utter lack of choice and innovation that is the point.
The italicized part isn't true. The Charon holds more at Caldari Freighter IV than ALL of the other freighters do at V. It's simply that its balanced in other ways, such as the others aligning faster, having more EHP, etc.
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Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
497
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:01:00 -
[524] - Quote
Frozentank Madullier wrote:Do you know how cool it would be if instead of having the Iteron II through IV you could simply purchase the level 1 and then several "addons" and then could adjust the ship on departure. Increasing the volume and mass with each level. Like a semi truck. And you could have additional addons available that when repackaged could fit inside the level 1. So let's say I needed to haul a bunch of ships in one direction, I could take off with an Iteron I with 4 addon modules inside. Fly to Jita, expand the ship into an Iteron V and then load it up.
The fact that only Gallente has it really isn't a problem. It's a tech 1 ship that only requires level 1 skill to fly. We're talking about less than 1 day of training.
Or we could keep all those stuff in line with the rest of the game and make the specialised hauler part of the T2 lineup since T2 is in every other type of ship the specialisation line where you get more "gimmicky" possibilities at a cost in other stuff on the ship. |
Dave Stark
3205
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:04:00 -
[525] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Dave Stark wrote:. . .so he hasn't really given you a choice. if you want a "max cargo hauler" you basically have the iteron V if you bothered training gallente industrial V back when it was truly the only option, or train for a bestower. the other two ships aren't options as they're beaten at the role for less SP.
that simply isn't balanced when one ship is better in it's role than it's counterparts and does so with less SP. The bolded part is sort of the whole crux of the issues in this thread. Rise is effectively going to replace one outgoing max-cargo ship for another. It's the utter lack of choice and innovation that is the point. The italicized part isn't true. The Charon holds more at Caldari Freighter IV than ALL of the other freighters do at V. It's simply that its balanced in other ways, such as the others aligning faster, having more EHP, etc.
the italicized part is true, i just proved it. the bestower beats everything but the itty V at amarr industrial IV. even when other ships have the relevant racial industrial to V. i don't mind the bestower being bigger than everything else, at equal skill levels, that's fine. however when it's bigger than everything even at an inferior skill level? doesn't feel right to me.
with regard to freighters, if i'm not mistaken the fenrir at like IV or V is bigger than the charon at I, not to mention due to the fact that there's only one freighter per race the difference in cargo, speed, etc is needed. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
291
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:07:00 -
[526] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Maximus Andendare wrote:Dave Stark wrote:. . .so he hasn't really given you a choice. if you want a "max cargo hauler" you basically have the iteron V if you bothered training gallente industrial V back when it was truly the only option, or train for a bestower. the other two ships aren't options as they're beaten at the role for less SP.
that simply isn't balanced when one ship is better in it's role than it's counterparts and does so with less SP. The bolded part is sort of the whole crux of the issues in this thread. Rise is effectively going to replace one outgoing max-cargo ship for another. It's the utter lack of choice and innovation that is the point. The italicized part isn't true. The Charon holds more at Caldari Freighter IV than ALL of the other freighters do at V. It's simply that its balanced in other ways, such as the others aligning faster, having more EHP, etc. the italicized part is true, i just proved it. the bestower beats everything but the itty V at amarr industrial IV. even when other ships have the relevant racial industrial to V. i don't mind the bestower being bigger than everything else, at equal skill levels, that's fine. however when it's bigger than everything even at an inferior skill level? doesn't feel right to me. with regard to freighters, if i'm not mistaken the fenrir at like IV or V is bigger than the charon at I, not to mention due to the fact that there's only one freighter per race the difference in cargo, speed, etc is needed. Learn to read: The Charon holds more at Caldari Freighter IV than ALL of the other freighters do at V. It's simply that its balanced in other ways, such as the others aligning faster, having more EHP, etc. |
Silivar Karkun
Imperium Aeternam Phantom Armada
60
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:07:00 -
[527] - Quote
Klingon Admiral wrote:Some quick throwing around of some ideas:
1. Number of industrials per race
Three would be a good number in my oppinion, both Minmatar and Gallente have 3+ haulers and a Caldari one could relatively easy be created (Bustard w/ T1 Shaders). Only Amarr would lack a third industrial design. The haulers should be one each of the following categories:
1. Agile/Tanky Haulers 2. "Generalist" Haulers 3. "Specialist" Haulers
2. Industrial specialization
2.1 Agile/Tanky Haulers
They should have the smallest cargo of the bunch and should specialize to either be tanky OR agile. Maybe even forego a cargo bonus altogether and just give them slightly larger base-cargos. The specializations would of course be:
Caldari: Shield Tanky (Shield HP and/or Shield Resists) Amarr: Armor Tanky (Armor HP and/or Armor Resists) Minmatar: Fast agile (agility bonus) Gallente: Efficient agile (largest cargohold, agility bonus, less agile than Minmatar)
Cargo capacity should go: Gallente > Amarr > Caldari > Minmatar
2.2 "Generalist" Haulers
The industrials we know and love/hate, only in an improved form. They should keep the traditional agility/cargo-boni and offer some sort of balance between agility/tank and cargo, which should lie between 25k and 30k.
Cargo capacity should go: Amarr > Gallente > Caldari > Minmatar
However, Gallente and Minmatar should posses enough agility that they beat Amarr respectively Caldari in the efficency department.
2.3 "Specialist" Haulers
The biggest of the bunch ... as long as you use their additional cargoholds. Should posess a cargo of about 40-50k, with their standard cargobay being really tiny.. My suggestions would be:
Amarr: Ore specilization, tiny cargo + large orebay Minmatar: Fuel specialization, tiny cargo + large fuelbay, albeit no JD Caldari: PI specialization, tiny cargo + command center bay (maybe) + PI goods bay, basically a Primae in good
Gallente: no specialization-specialization, no special bay, but the largest cargobay in the T1 subcapital department, total cargo should be significantly smaller than the other specialist haulers to prevent fotm status
now matter how big would be the cargo of the others, people would still use the best standard hauler, people just dont get it, specialized haulers wouldnt work.
also why limiting amarr to only 2 hulls?
again, the fix needed for this are 3 roles divided in speed, tank and cargo. 3 industrials for each race, amarr and caldari just need an aditional hull for each one, if CCP has the resources to implement Navy Battlecruisers, why not 2 new industrial hulls?, not fair for industrial players overall.
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Dave Stark
3205
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:08:00 -
[528] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:stuff
so i read about as well as you when you told me that the bestower isn't bigger than the rest even at lower SP? anyway let's not turn this in to an argument. i don't really want my point derailed.
edit: actually, it doesn't matter about freighters you're comparing apples to oranges. there's 1 freighter per race, vs multiple industrials per race. hence they HAVE to be different, where as industrials SHOULDN'T have that large of a difference.
when you have 1 ship per class, the differences must be done via races. however with multiple ships per class the differences should be done through ships not through the race they belong to. |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
428
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:10:00 -
[529] - Quote
Ripard Teg wrote:I've Liked so many posts in this thread I've lost count.
Thanks to everyone giving feedback on this!
Just as a side note
this is awkward, you thanking us for our feedback instead of CCP RISE...
he posted the thread, he asked for feedback, he should be the one thanking us for the feedback not the CSM member that represent us and doesn't work for CCP.
Don't put the t-shirt of a CCP Dev, don't get to close, you are a CSM member. Keep your distance to preserve your independence and objectivity. What is the next step? start apologizing for CCP when they do something wrong?! Test 1, 2, 3... |
Silivar Karkun
Imperium Aeternam Phantom Armada
60
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:10:00 -
[530] - Quote
Silivar Karkun wrote:gonna put the concept of the 3 roles for industrials like this:
speed industrial: +5% cargo, agility and maximum velocity per lvl
tank industrial: +5% cargo and tank per lvl (be it shield or armor)
cargo industrial (AKA mini freighter): +10% cargo per lvl
of course this means that at racial industrial V you have one ship with 25% more cargo than the other 2, working as intended. while some ships would reach out the mark of 40k m3 they still wouldnt get close to what other industrial ships have, for example the orca, which can get almos 200k m3 fully cargoed.
now, what happens with the DST and the Blockade Runners?, the Blockade Runner would come after the speed industrial, adding the double of bonus (+10% cargo, agility and max velocity per lvl), same for the DST in relation with the tank industrial (+10% cargo and tank per lvl, armor or shield)
now, there's still a ship left, but the 3rd industrial role is intended to converge into freighters.
but we have 2 races which use only 2 industrials (Caldari and Amarr), while Gallente use 5. instead of leaving 4 ships useless, the idea is to put the art department into creating 2 aditional industrials, one for Amarr and one for Caldari, this giving it same ground as Minmatar, and use the Iteron I, III and V as the dedicated gallente industrials (maybe with Iteron II and IV as mid ground between each role)
the configuration would be then:
Amarr:
-Speed Hauler -> Sigil
-Tank Hauler -> Bestower
-Mini Freighter -> new hull required
Caldari:
-Speed Hauler -> Badger
-Tank Hauler -> Badger Mk II
-Minifreighter -> Badger Mk III (new hull required)
Minmatar:
-Speed Hauler -> Wreathe
-Tank Hauler -> Hoarder
-Mini Freighter -> Mammoth (they would still have the Mastodon as the DST of course, same bonus applied but it would need a change in its attributes in that case for leaving it in ground with what would be a T2 Hoarder)
Gallente:
-Speed Hauler -> Iteron
-midgrown between speed and tank -> Iteron II
-Tank Hauler -> Iteron III
-mid ground between tank and cargo -> Iteron IV
-Mini Freighter -> Iteron V
this looks better than what its planned right now, and doesnt leave industrial ships out of the equation... now in order to implement this i suggest that youd leave this rebalance to the winter expansion instead of shoving it for Odyssey 1.1, which is too soon BTW..
quoting this again... |
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Luc Chastot
Gentleman's Corp
410
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:19:00 -
[531] - Quote
Honestly Rise, just get rid of the excess industrials. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Deornoth Drake
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
31
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:20:00 -
[532] - Quote
haulers: racial industrials orca (freighters)
Why not simplify hauling skills? Let all be licenced by ORE like the Orca But instead of just two directions you could end up with 12 ... (13 with the noctis) - ship hauler - ice/ore/gas hauler - scan resistant - ...
Racial ships -> PVP (PVE) - fighting ORE ships -> industrial stuff including hauling
Just an idea ... not yet elaborated |
Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
428
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:23:00 -
[533] - Quote
Deornoth Drake wrote:haulers: racial industrials orca (freighters)
Why not simplify hauling skills? Let all be licenced by ORE like the Orca But instead of just two directions you could end up with 12 ... (13 with the noctis) - ship hauler - ice/ore/gas hauler - scan resistant - ...
Racial ships -> PVP (PVE) - fighting ORE ships -> industrial stuff including hauling
Just an idea ... not yet elaborated
for hauling the NPC corp that should be used should be the Interbus not ORE, that means a new industrial skill book, yes, but at least we put the ships in the correct place. Test 1, 2, 3... |
Alvar Kesh
Ealurian Shipyards
42
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:27:00 -
[534] - Quote
As an industrialist bitter vet, I can say that there is a lot of lost potential here. Haulers can be so much more as presented, and there are some very good examples in this thread how to make that. CSM member Ripart Teg for example. CPP would be an idiot not to listen to them.
As a side note: maybe not an experience small gang pvp-er is the best person for this rebalancing. Just saying. Ealurian Shipyards' BPC shop |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
291
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:30:00 -
[535] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:so i read about as well as you when you told me that the bestower isn't bigger than the rest even at lower SP? anyway let's not turn this in to an argument. i don't really want my point derailed. There's no argument here. You're saying things are untrue:
- You said that it is unbalanced to have a ship that carries more at lower skill points (lower skill level) than the others do at their max skill level. You used the Bestower, carrying more at Amarr Industrial IV than the others carry at Industrial V. It is not unbalanced.
- I explained that "balance" doesn't always come in the form of a 1-to-1 comparison. I offered you an example in the game where a ship--a hauler no less--carries more at a lower skill level than every single one of its counterparts do at maximum skill level--a skill that takes ~35 days or so to train.
- You failed to realize that "balance" can be accomplished in other ways, such as having the ship align faster, travel at sublight speeds faster, tank more, etc.
- In fact, you conveniently left out that the Bestower takes ~10.1% longer to align than its next slowest competitor, the Badger Mk. II, and a whopping 19.2% slower than its next-smallest rival, the Iteron V that carries only less than 2%!!
Really, stop a moment to think about what you're posting before you go making claims that are blatantly false. These forums can be a place for vigorous discussion but not if statements are made to be dramatic and are biased to push your view.
In fact, running the numbers above, I'd HAPPILY take an Itty V carrying 2% less for an almost 20% gain in align time! Do you realize how fast that 20% is going to add up over time?? |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
498
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:45:00 -
[536] - Quote
Alvar Kesh wrote:As an industrialist bitter vet, I can say that there is a lot of lost potential here. Haulers can be so much more as presented, and there are some very good examples in this thread how to make that. CSM member Ripart Teg for example. CPP would be an idiot not to listen to them.
As a side note: maybe not an experience small gang pvp-er is the best person for this rebalancing. Just saying.
All those specialisation things for different out of regular capacities should be in the T2 lineup where the specialised ships are and not in the T1 lineup where the generic ships are. It's like that in every single ship category. It's a hauler. It haul stuff. Lots of stuff in the same trip is better. Less in the same trip is worse.
Your cargo to tank to speed ratio is all dictated by what you put inside the hold and what you fit in the low slots.
Want more EHP? Go go bulkhead/DC.
Want more space? Cargo extender.
Not close enough to your liking yet? Play with the rigs too! |
Dave Stark
3205
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:53:00 -
[537] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Dave Stark wrote:so i read about as well as you when you told me that the bestower isn't bigger than the rest even at lower SP? anyway let's not turn this in to an argument. i don't really want my point derailed. There's no argument here. You're saying things are untrue:
- You said that it is unbalanced to have a ship that carries more at lower skill points (lower skill level) than the others do at their max skill level. You used the Bestower, carrying more at Amarr Industrial IV than the others carry at Industrial V. It is not unbalanced.
- I explained that "balance" doesn't always come in the form of a 1-to-1 comparison. I offered you an example in the game where a ship--a hauler no less--carries more at a lower skill level than every single one of its counterparts do at maximum skill level--a skill that takes ~35 days or so to train.
- You failed to realize that "balance" can be accomplished in other ways, such as having the ship align faster, travel at sublight speeds faster, tank more, etc.
- In fact, you conveniently left out that the Bestower takes ~10.1% longer to align than its next slowest competitor, the Badger Mk. II, and a whopping 19.2% slower than its next-smallest rival, the Iteron V that carries only less than 2%!!
Really, stop a moment to think about what you're posting before you go making claims that are blatantly false. These forums can be a place for vigorous discussion but not if statements are made to be dramatic and are biased to push your view. In fact, running the numbers above, I'd HAPPILY take an Itty V carrying 2% less for an almost 20% gain in align time! Do you realize how fast that 20% is going to add up over time??
it is unbalanced, that's why they're rebalancing industrials. however instead of the itty V beats everything, it's now the bestower doing it. it's still too far ahead of the badger mk2 for the badger mk2 to be a consideration, for example.
you just compared apples to oranges, you compared a 1 ship class to a multiple ship class. there, the only difference is race, where as in industrials the difference is role. sure the ships should have quirks and benefits/drawbacks relating to their race outside of their primary stat, however the primary stats should generally all be somewhere similar so the choice of race comes down to the non-primary stat. it keeps racial flavour without making a "one ship to rule them all" situation that we're seeing with the ret/mack and now the bestower.
i didn't fail to see that, i just pointed out it's completely irrelevant if the other ships simply don't do the role they're supposed to do as well as another ship, because the ship that does it the best will be chose regardless of the secondary bonsues such as agility, speed etc.
that difference in align time means precisely 0 if you have to make 2 trips. that's why the ships should be far closer than they are now.
i'll admit the itty V vs the bestower is where ALL the industrials should be, but they aren't. the badger is lagging behind substantially. if the badger were as close to the bestower as the itty then this wouldn't be an issue at all and i'd actually be quite content with the changes. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
4292
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 18:54:00 -
[538] - Quote
I'm not making any judgements just yet, but it might be helpful to clarify the priorities a player has when choosing a T1 hauler.
1: Max cargo capacity
2: This is a tie between alignment time (for those who manually pilot) and speed (for those who fly AFK).
3: Warp speed
4: Tank (a distant last) To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
261
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 19:00:00 -
[539] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I'm not making any judgements just yet, but it might be helpful to clarify the priorities a player has when choosing a T1 hauler.
1: Max cargo capacity
2: This is a tie between alignment time (for those who manually pilot) and speed (for those who fly AFK).
3: Warp speed
4: Tank (a distant last)
Not empty quoting. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
498
|
Posted - 2013.06.21 19:07:00 -
[540] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I'm not making any judgements just yet, but it might be helpful to clarify the priorities a player has when choosing a T1 hauler.
1: Max cargo capacity
2: This is a tie between alignment time (for those who manually pilot) and speed (for those who fly AFK).
3: Warp speed
4: Tank (a distant last)
All controled by low slots/rigs wich mean we only really need 1 hauler/race and as many low slots as possible so anyone can fit thier hauler to his own exact specification. |
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