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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1015
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Posted - 2013.06.19 15:50:00 -
[121] - Quote
To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.
Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3 Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3
There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:
Gallente: 38433m3 Minmatar: 28259m3
In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.
I prefer the new version (even at the cost of 'homoginizing') |
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Joseph Adamamada
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.06.19 15:51:00 -
[122] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alright, after far too much time, I think we're as close as we're going to get to finished with these. MAMMOTH
Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 2H, 5M, 4L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 140 PWG, 775 CPU Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 4400 / 22105m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 690 / 1050 / 1700 Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 130 / .91 / 11375000 / 14.3 Signature radius: 190
Base cargo seems to be wrong. Shouldn't it be 5625m3? (My PI Mammoth is T1 rigged/T2 exp and hauls 27129m3)
IB4 CCP secretly nerfs the Mammoth |
Pirokobo
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27
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Posted - 2013.06.19 15:53:00 -
[123] - Quote
How to deal with the extra industrials:
Add three new specialized sub categories of industrial ships.
One with only a corporate hangar. One with only a ship hold and ship maintenance. One with basically no capacity to speak of that can use clone vats.
This, combined with the other three roles, gives justification for five different types of industrials. It also gives low cost specialized alternatives to the Orca and Rorqual. Secretary - Goonswarm Federation Corps Diplomatique |
Summer Isle
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
6
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Posted - 2013.06.19 15:56:00 -
[124] - Quote
I want to add my voice to the "Save the Mammoths" crowd. The ship is beautiful, so far as the T1 industrials go, and it fits quite nicely with the Minmatar DST being based on its hull. The Wreath is ugly enough, but the Hoarder... please, no. |
Raziphan Rebular
Blue Sky Labs
69
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:02:00 -
[125] - Quote
Aurora RedNova wrote:I really hope you grab the Tech2 haulers as next after you are already deep in the matter with tech1. Tech2 haulers need a really big rebalance (deep space transports are not for deep space actually and move like a whale on valium).
Btw. vulnerability of transporters like charon etc for ganks is a REALLY big issue too^^
I like the deep space transports for moving my Pi in lowsec, the tank is nice just in case i get caught at a poco, where as t1 hauler or the cov ops hauler wouldn't be nearly so good.. Plus I can fit a butt load of stabs onto of my tank. It's good all around. But ya the name is kinda misleading. |
Abla Tive
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:02:00 -
[126] - Quote
Warde Guildencrantz wrote:switch the mammoth with the hoarder please. No one wants to fly that ugly monstrosity called the hoarder and it wouldn't make sense that the mastodon has a mammoth hull otherwise.
I agree.
Plus I use Mammoths for my heavy hauling right now (i.e. they are the ones who are already rigged). The new numbers mean that my existing ships are less useful than they are today (smaller hold capacity)
You should leave the big haulers as the big haulers for all the races.
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Dave Stark
3189
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:03:00 -
[127] - Quote
considering the mammoth doesn't seem to have any indicated stat changes, why is it losing like 4k cargo capacity?
actually, i'm not even sure i care, i own an orca which is still better than every single t1 industrial in every single way that matters. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
275
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:03:00 -
[128] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:(even at the cost of 'homoginizing') I think you've missed the point that there doesn't need to be homogenization. We don't need one sausage different lengths. Racial diversity in what can be carried/how fast would have gone a long way to making these ships truly unique. Aside from that, there really should be three variants of them if you are stuck on homogenization.
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Koban Agalder
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
5
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:04:00 -
[129] - Quote
So everyone who rigged his Mammoth with cargohold expanders is now screwed ? James Arget for CSM 8!-áhttp://csm.fcftw.org-á |
Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
716
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:05:00 -
[130] - Quote
What about the CPU Rise? Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
275
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:06:00 -
[131] - Quote
Joseph Adamamada wrote:Base cargo seems to be wrong. Shouldn't it be 5625m3? (My PI Mammoth is T1 rigged/T2 exp and hauls 27129m3)
IB4 CCP secretly nerfs the Mammoth This is intentional. Rise stated that the "other" hulls would fall in the middle of the intended haulers with the proposed changes. The Hoarder is the big boy for Minmatar after these changes, as much as that idea sucks. |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
1016
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:11:00 -
[132] - Quote
I'll try to get a meeting tomorrow with Art and see if we can reach an agreement about the Mammoth. I'm kind of surprised so few of you like the Hoarder though, its pretty hilarious looking.
Look for a post with final word sometime tomorrow. |
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Gilbaron
Free-Space-Ranger Nulli Secunda
892
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:12:00 -
[133] - Quote
thats just meh-ish
cant you use the current models as placeholders for the new roles until new hulls are designed ? We are recruiting german-speaking PVP players, contact me :)
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Pirokobo
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
27
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:16:00 -
[134] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:I'm kind of surprised so few of you like the Hoarder though, its pretty hilarious looking.
The Gila may have guristas digital camo, and be the dual wielding pve god of drones and missiles, but it still looks like a shop class welding accident. Secretary - Goonswarm Federation Corps Diplomatique |
blazegryph
Corpy Hooves
12
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:20:00 -
[135] - Quote
Save the Mammoth!!
Ok, now being more serious.. the Hoarder us ugly and bloatsome while the mammoth is longer and bulkier, as an huge cargo hauler should be, taking in cosideration the cargohgold. Even as if you CCP decide to give roles to al the minmatar t1 indusrials hulls, but keep the mammoth as the biggest cargohauler, i dont care if it is slow, untanked or takes ages to allign, but dont lower it's cargo capacity, is the King of the Rust! |
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
47
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:22:00 -
[136] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.
Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3 Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3
There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:
Gallente: 38433m3 Minmatar: 28259m3
In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.
I prefer the new version
Actually, if you read what I wrote, you'll see that each race was previously "best" in one capacity, and it seemed pretty balanced to me. You want biggest t1 hauler cargo space? Go Gallente. You want biggest t2 hauler cargo space, for nullsec/whatever? Go Amarr. You want best wormhole-centric capabilities on a T2 covops transport? (i.e. probes AND warping cloaked and fast align) Go Minmatar. You want the biggest freighter cargo space? Go Caldari.
Now, Gallente have no "best in class" for anything useful. The extra midslot for more tank is, quite frankly, a joke.
If you're so happy to let us crosstrain now, why weren't you happy letting people crosstrain BEFORE if they wanted the best in class ship at the time?
There are good rebalances, and there are pointless ones. This is the latter.
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Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
233
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:25:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.
Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3 Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3
There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:
Gallente: 38433m3 Minmatar: 28259m3
In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.
I prefer the new version
I have no idea what game you play, but this is a game played by min/maxers. It could be a difference of 1m3 and people will just train the one with the larger cargo capacity.
Another thing you are not considering is new players coming in the game. All the older ones now will just coach them on training the one with the largest hold. Racial flavor and the subtle balances between these ships means nothing to new players. Cargo capacity is king. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1537
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:28:00 -
[138] - Quote
Can we drop a lowslot from all of them and give them a hardwired damage control II? Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Adunh Slavy
981
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:28:00 -
[139] - Quote
Any word on build costs? Assume that will follow past tericide patterns? |
Abla Tive
State War Academy Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:29:00 -
[140] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:honestly, just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers. Some of us like this option a lot - unfortunately it would mean doing the same for all t2 haulers and all t1/t2 freighters, which would be A: A giant commitment in terms of art asset creation, B: A waste of assets that already exist and C: would probably be hated by a lot of players because of how much flavor and history it would remove from the game.
You are looking at this wrong, think of it as an opportunity. Everyone can already fly all the industrial ships (with only a few minutes of training).
So, choose one race to have the biggest industrial capacity and another to have the fastest.
Then take *all* the other ships and specialize them in some way (type of cargo being the obvious approach, maybe have one being a 'jeep' carrier or something. |
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Berluth Luthian
Meltdown.
80
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:30:00 -
[141] - Quote
Marcel Devereux wrote:CCP Rise wrote:To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.
Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3 Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3
There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:
Gallente: 38433m3 Minmatar: 28259m3
In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.
I prefer the new version I have no idea what game you play, but this is a game played by min/maxers. It could be a difference of 1m3 and people will just train the one with the larger cargo capacity. Another thing you are not considering is new players coming in the game. All the older ones now will just coach them on training the one with the largest hold. Racial flavor and the subtle balances between these ships means nothing to new players. Cargo capacity is king.
Wouldn't minmaxers also realize that align time or speed differences would mean less time traveling, which can result in more hauled? Increased speed/agility effectively increases your capacity carrying rate. |
Ersahi Kir
Infinite Mobility SpaceMonkey's Alliance
190
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:31:00 -
[142] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:actually, i'm not even sure i care, i own an orca which is still better than every single t1 industrial in every single way that matters.
I think the speedy/tanky industrials may find some general use for people moving small amounts of stuff, but the "cargo" haulers are indeed completely trumped by the orca. Being able to move 75k+ m3 of stuff in a ship with 200k+ ehp beats the hell out of hauling up to 38k m3 of stuff with some crappy ehp number. With MWD trick they're about the same in align time as well.
The cargo haulers are pretty sad. I may pick up an agile hauler though.
Still want to know why the CPU is so outrageously high on these ships. |
Eeio
Andeby Inc Darkspawn.
4
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:32:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Let us know what you think!
I think you need to explain some more why you are degrading the Mammoth and making the Hoarder top dog?
And how will this affect T2 industrials? It seems a bit problematic unless you turn the T2 mammoth into a T2 Hoarder as well.
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Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
4
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:32:00 -
[144] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Firstly, there should have been three (3) categories for Industrials: the Tanky one, the Fast one, and the Large Cargo one.
The tanky ones would have been: Sigil Mark II, Badger Mark II, Hoarder and Iteron Mark III. The Sigil Mark II could have just been a Sigil with a slightly different color scheme, since that's not terribly difficult to implement and it's been done before.
The fast ones should have been Sigil Mark I, Badger Mark I, Wreathe, Iteron Mark I.
Lastly, the large cargo ones would have been Bestower, Badger Mark III, Mammoth, and Iteron Mark V. The Badger Mark III would have been a reskin of the Bustard hull (since it has another cargo box) in T1 skins.
I think he's on the right track here. With a scheme like this:
- Only 2 ships become "extra" instead of 4 -- less awkwardness.
- The Mammoth gets to remain the high-capacity Minmatar hauler that it always was, but the art dept gets to keep their precious Hoarder as a first-class ship as well.
- Only two reskins are required for Sigil and Badger variants.
- No new hulls need to be created; if you really don't like the duplication of the Sigil model you can always go back and upgrade one of them down the road, but that's not a priority.
- All races get one hauler that focuses on one of the three attributes.
- For each attribute, the ships that focus on it can still differ in their balance of the other two. For example the Minmatar and Gallente high-capacity ships can have medium agility and low tank, while the Amarr and Caldari high-capacity ships have low agility and medium tank. Likewise the Minmatar and Amarr high-tank ships can have medium agility and low tank, while the Caldari and Gallente high-tank ships have low agility and medium tank.
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Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
275
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:37:00 -
[145] - Quote
Berluth Luthian wrote:Wouldn't minmaxers also realize that align time or speed differences would mean less time traveling, which can result in more hauled? Increased speed/agility effectively increases your capacity carrying rate. Probably not. It's the same reason that so many people train for a Charon and never realize that it takes A LOT to fill it up and it moves like an iceberg. For most hauling needs, the Fenrir or even Providence are WAY faster, which, over time, means that more m3 is going to be delivered than what the iceberg can deliver, based on travel time alone.
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Joseph Adamamada
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:41:00 -
[146] - Quote
Maximus Andendare wrote:Joseph Adamamada wrote:Base cargo seems to be wrong. Shouldn't it be 5625m3? (My PI Mammoth is T1 rigged/T2 exp and hauls 27129m3)
IB4 CCP secretly nerfs the Mammoth This is intentional. Rise stated that the "other" hulls would fall in the middle of the intended haulers with the proposed changes. The Hoarder is the big boy for Minmatar after these changes, as much as that idea sucks.
I know. It's just damned inconvenient to have to switch a handful of haulers, doling out ~80M ISK for new rigs and move slowass haulers around in Delve to their PI systems :effort:.
I want satisfaction if my optimal hauler is nerfed. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
267
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:42:00 -
[147] - Quote
Pirokobo wrote:CCP Rise wrote:I'm kind of surprised so few of you like the Hoarder though, its pretty hilarious looking. The Gila may have guristas digital camo, and be the dual wielding pve god of drones and missiles, but it still looks like a shop class welding accident.
If you don't like moas you are bad. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
1041
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:43:00 -
[148] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
The iteron 5 loses some hp, but the new Iteron has around 50% more hp than the former Iteron 5.
"Some" HP????
You cut the base tank in half.
Many players used this ship as the defacto cheap belt-mining hauling ship (orca was obviously better, but that means your bonuses disappears when it warps off and docks with a load).
Now, the ganker catalysts will just have to look at it and poof. Plus, many people fitted two tractors in the highs, but you deemed that too many.
Brilliant, just brilliant.
Gankers throughout high sec are rejoicing, deeming you their new messiah. |
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
47
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:43:00 -
[149] - Quote
Berluth Luthian wrote:Marcel Devereux wrote:CCP Rise wrote:To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.
Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3 Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3
There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:
Gallente: 38433m3 Minmatar: 28259m3
In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.
I prefer the new version I have no idea what game you play, but this is a game played by min/maxers. It could be a difference of 1m3 and people will just train the one with the larger cargo capacity. Another thing you are not considering is new players coming in the game. All the older ones now will just coach them on training the one with the largest hold. Racial flavor and the subtle balances between these ships means nothing to new players. Cargo capacity is king. Wouldn't minmaxers also realize that align time or speed differences would mean less time traveling, which can result in more hauled? Increased speed/agility effectively increases your capacity carrying rate.
Speaking as a minmaxer, speed differences mean squat. If you're slowboating, or tanking, in your t1 hauler, you are doing it wrong. Or you're AFK, in which case you don't care anyway. Agility is a slight difference, but Minmatar were always king there anyway, hence the reason people used to CHOOSE to train for the minmatar freighter line.
I just really don't see how making these changes lets people make better race-picking decisions than they were able to make before.
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Aeril Malkyre
Knights of the Ouroboros
237
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Posted - 2013.06.19 16:51:00 -
[150] - Quote
In for 'Save the Mammoth.' I'm not sure why Art would like the Hoarder better. It looks like a flailing turtle.
I implore you guys to use the Hoarder as your weird third ship. Wreathe and Mammoth should maintain their place as forerunners of the T2 industrials (that you'd better be looking at later). Wreathe-class is fast and agile with small cargo, Mammoth-class is burly and slow with all the cargo. I really really don't want to have to abandon my trusty Mammoth Auroch for a Hoarder.
I'd still encourage you guys to think of a third role, and slot the Hoarder, the Itty Mark whatever, and a couple of Amarr/Caldari reskins (for now, new models somewhere down the line) to it. A tiny ore compressor ala Rorqual? Something unique. |
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