Ya I wouldn't mean to sound dismissive of hauling as a profession at all, I'm just saying that from a ship balance and fitting perspective, hauling isn't as complex as combat.

Maybe it could/should be, but again, I don't think this rebalance is the place to start, which is why we decided to hold off on anything drastic until we get a better sense for where industry in general is heading.

There is so much wrapped up in this comment that I don't even really know where to start.

I think you're assuming that A: you have to tank industrials (you don't), B: you have to max expand industrials (you don't), and C: industrial flavor is derived from its tank(I don't think it is?).

I think the real problem here is that because we're putting any time into these ships, you guys want them to pop with something new. In the past, their flavor mostly was based on their art along with some quirks like having 5 Gallente indies or battle Badgers. On the whole haulers are just not very exciting compared to a lot of other classes in EVE. I can understand you want something new to make them pop more, but please keep in mind that it was never there to begin with. These ships mostly just carry stuff around for cheap, that's what they do. The purpose of this balance is just to make sure that there is some depth of choice and that each race has access to a cheap ship to carry things around that isn't painfully worse than the Itty 5.

On flavor generally... I think the word is used in so many different ways that I'm not even sure how to answer. I think Fozzie and I are really focused on mechanics that lead to interesting gameplay. I can't speak for him, but I think that "flavor" often emerges as a result of good design, or is intentionally added to lead to interesting play. We both care about it, especially in EVE. On top of that, we don't do anything alone, and there's plenty of people in the department who are extremely concerned about story, history, and aesthetic to make sure that I don't do anything too disruptive. These people played a hugely important part in decisions around the industrials.

I've typed a lot of text walls today =P

I think you're assuming that A: you have to tank industrials (you don't),

B: you have to max expand industrials (you don't)

and C: industrial flavor is derived from its tank(I don't think it is?).

I think the real problem here is that because we're putting any time into these ships, you guys want them to pop with something new. ... On the whole haulers are just not very exciting compared to a lot of other classes in EVE.

I've typed a lot of text walls today =P

Currently, when I want to move low m3 high value goods, it's in either a blockade runner or a frigate. Gate camps pretty much dictate that anything slower than that, no matter how much I tank it, is going to die. Align time and sig radius is a hauler's tank. If I need to move something larger, it's either an Orca or an Iteron 5.

I don't think our lack of enthusiasm for these changes has anything to do with this rebalance not "popping", but because it changes nothing at all for those of us who spend time ferrying goods around New Eden. The only thing this rebalance really does is give 3 racial choices to replace the Iteron 5 and make them a tad less survivable in the process. The more survivable ships you've supplied are less survivable than other options already in the game which can be reached in under a month's training time.

I'm glad you're looking at industrials, I really am. But given the choice between this, and not rebalancing them. I'd rather you didn't touch them at all and place them in the back of your mind for a future real rework once we're closer to the "industrial changes" as a whole you're talking about. Or if you do touch them, only add in the three racial variants of max capacity to give the Iteron some competition. Because that is the only real take away from this for us.

Industrial ships do need some love, but a half hearted attempt because of time constraints from more pressing ships to rebalance is worse than no attempt at all.

but on the other side, giving them a job that was interesting and valuable but only available for Gallente and Minmatar felt unfair.

On the whole haulers are just not very exciting compared to a lot of other classes in EVE. I can understand you want something new to make them pop more, but please keep in mind that it was never there to begin with. These ships mostly just carry stuff around for cheap, that's what they do.

Makes sense, I guess.

It'd be nice to have something like a ore hold, or a fitting service on the others, but it would be limiting for anyone but the gallente.


I mentioned this in a previous post (somewhere) but I can see the following Industrial roles:

1: tanky
2: fast - This is a lot less useful. As fast can be covered by a different class. A frigate sized courier
3: big
4: Specialist cargo (ore/gas/ice)
5: Fitting service
6: Fleet hangar


And we already have:
7: Salvager
8: PI specialist cargo.

These ships mostly just carry stuff around for cheap, that's what they do.

so is this, essentially, the answer to my t1 indy ship vs orca question?

they all suck have no attractive qualities in comparison to the orca because they're cheap?

Ya I wouldn't mean to sound dismissive of hauling as a profession at all, I'm just saying that from a ship balance and fitting perspective, hauling isn't as complex as combat.

Maybe it could/should be, but again, I don't think this rebalance is the place to start, which is why we decided to hold off on anything drastic until we get a better sense for where industry in general is heading.

Before the posting begins,(...and the rest)

i expect there maybe people like myself that have invested in the itty 5 financially by buying blueprints etc based on the previous news that the skill requirements where changing for industrials. i think it would have been more transparent to have alluded to these new changes at the same time. and while i except that the isk cost of purchase and research time of the blueprints is not entirely wasted it does leave a bad taste in the mouth of those of us that rightly or wrongly tried to get ahead of the curve (or in this case wavy line). This maybe a contributing factor to some of the resistance you are seeing in this thread.

i expect there maybe people like myself that have invested in the itty 5 financially by buying blueprints etc based on the previous news that the skill requirements where changing for industrials. i think it would have been more transparent to have alluded to these new changes at the same time. and while i except that the isk cost of purchase and research time of the blueprints is not entirely wasted it does leave a bad taste in the mouth of those of us that rightly or wrongly tried to get ahead of the curve (or in this case wavy line). This maybe a contributing factor to some of the resistance you are seeing in this thread.

I will continue to use a mammoth, even if the hoarder is "better". I hated the hoarder when I was given it in the tutorial and stuck with my wreathe for a long time.

(5) Nobody puts guns on haulers. There's no situation in which it's even remotely the right thing to do.

- Iteron mark IV is the Occator hull isn't it?

Why does the bestower now hold MORE than the Impel, its t2 variant?

Don't just listen to the art dept, have you seen what they did to the Navy Comet?

As far as I recall they improved its looks by about 1000% by getting rid of that ludicrous police car look.

you mean, the very thing people loved about it?

Ah, now let me guess . . . oh, could it be because the T2 variants have not yet been rebalanced?