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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 27 post(s) |
Vayn Baxtor
Community for Justice R O G U E
55
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Posted - 2013.06.22 04:55:00 -
[571] - Quote
Shereza wrote:While I appreciate that the mammoth will continue to have a designated, CCP-endorsed role in the game I have to say that it falling to the wayside as the hoarder takes over the heavy hauling role might not have been a bad thing. I've always felt that the mammoth looks a lot more like a battlecruiser, or even a "heavy" cruiser, than a lot of other ships in the game. It's ugly and blocky, but it also looks like it could sport multiple turrets or launchers and break several kneecaps.
While turning the mammoth into a combat ship instead of a hauler is unlikely to say the least I would still like to use it to springboard a suggestion that "combat industrials" become a defined, official role. Specifically these ships ought to receive one weapon bonus for small turrets and/or launchers, 3 or 4 high slots, and one mobility or, perhaps, tank (2.5%/level shield/armor/hull or shield/armor resistance for example, something useful but not in the same league as on combat ships) bonus. They should pack less cargo than the other two hulls and less base EHP than the dedicated "defensive" hauler.
Basically I'd like to see them have the potential to have 75%-80% of a frigate's firepower, 50-75% of a frigate's "tank," a decent enough hauling capacity to make them worthwhile, and a price tag to dissuade people from using them as low-level mission/complex/whatever runners.
Just a thought.
Been trying to push that idea and thought for the longest. Nobody fancies it (other than us two :D!) And there could still be a hauler variant and a combat variant. It is apparently too complicated for others to imagine, as well as to just give a decent all-rounder hauler. t2 will have more than enough of an advantage once tiericide hits the higher brackets. Using tablet, typoes are common and I'm not going to fix them all. |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
469
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 05:09:00 -
[572] - Quote
Kor Kilden wrote:Is the mammoth losing a high slot? I Which should I pull from my standard low/wspace/npc null mammoth, the cloak or the combat probes?
Actually, it looks like that's still the stat changes from when the Hoarder was going to be the high-capacity hauler. Rise must have changed the name and left the rest, unaware that there is a significant difference between the Hoarder's layout and the Mammoth's. I wouldn't anticipate a highslot change just yet. |
Ehronn
Nutz N Boltz
20
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 05:16:00 -
[573] - Quote
My idea that would let people customize any of the haulers however they wish
why not instead of having a fixed base cargo size.
why not make a cargo bay mod
so without the cargo bay mod there would be 0 base cargo space.
you add 1 cargo bay mod you gain say 5k or 8k m3 you add 2 cargo bays you have another 5k or 8k m3
also since you have created seperate holds on Ore ships
you could turn similar into mods
so you could have cargo bay mod, Ore hold mod, Drone bay mod
so in your low slots you could really customize your industrial similar in style to t3 ships
so say you had 5 low slots you could do like 1 cargo bay mod, 2 ore hold mods and damage control and some other low slot mod
or they could add all 5 ore hold mods leaving 0 cargo space
or they could have 4 cargo bays and 1 cargo expander
or whatever you get the basic idea.....
turn the actual bonuses into fittings, so you could have full customization of the role of the indy. Swap out cargo bays and add Ore holds, or heck want to add a little offense drop a drone bay in, or mix it up :)
I think it would be pretty cool to customize your indy's that way.
anyhow probably crazy idea, it is after 1am here, sleepy and rambling... |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
469
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 05:38:00 -
[574] - Quote
A T3 industrial ship should really just be a T3 industrial ship rather than a hodgepoged frankenstein'd T1 ship. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon Drunk 'n' Disorderly
753
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 06:04:00 -
[575] - Quote
thanks for listening about the mammoth ccp rise/ art department.
i luff the ship |
Sizeof Void
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
365
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 06:21:00 -
[576] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Thanks for reading, looking forward to feedback as always. Hmm... I rather doubt this, but read on then, Rise.
Based on the proposed changes and the supplementary paragraphs, I see only quick-and-dirty homogenizing tweaks and a lot of hand-waving excuses for not fixing them correctly and completely now. I'm sure that you all want to move on to something more interesting - like rebalancing HACs - but, this isn't a valid reason for doing a half-***ed, ****-poor job on the T1 industrials and vaguely suggesting that you'll get back to them again... later . Really, it smells a lot like "put the new guy on the job, since no else wants to do it, but tell him not to waste much time on it, either, 'cause we have more interesting ships to still fix".
So, -1 for intent.
With regards to the specific changes listed... my feedback is "no", across the board. You aren't fixing any of the long-standing problems, and you are actually making some of them even worse. These ships haven't been tweaked for years, and you want to get it all done in a few days? Right.
So, -1 for the changes.
Quite frankly, we'll all be better off if you leave the ships unchanged, as-is, for now, until someone eventually decides to take the job more seriously in hand and redesign the haulers, and their roles, correctly from the ground up. In the meantime, go work on the HACs - you know you want to.
Apologies for rather harsh feedback, but that's just how it looks. |
Deornoth Drake
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
31
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Posted - 2013.06.22 06:36:00 -
[577] - Quote
Move all the racial industrials to interbus (i.e. excluding the Noctis, ORE Industrial) or maybe split them between interbus and ORE, in addition to the transport ships, freighters and jump freighters. Then interbus can modifiy the ships and give them different roles (if they want to)
a) max. cargo - one high slot b) mining support - two high slots (e.g. cloak and tractor or salvager and tractor) - possible ORE industrial c) fleet support - ship maintenance + fleet hangar d) scan resistant cargo hold - the name e) agile/fast hauler f) tanky hauler
When it comes down to moving ships, introduce a way to immobilize a ship (similar to courier contract, just without having to setting up a contract). The. the ship becomes valid cargo for freighters and could be mobilized again given a station or ship maintenance bay (at a POS or in a ship).
No haulers with racial touch, i.e. no logistic (repping) or electronic warfare hauler
Idea behind: Racial ship skillis for "fighting" ships including repping and boosts Faction ship skills (currently only OREand possibly interbus) for non-fighting, e.g mining and possibly hauling |
Alara IonStorm
5151
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 06:44:00 -
[578] - Quote
I think you should ditch Cargo Expanders. Make them increase by a static amount and sort them into sizes for Frigates, Cruisers and Battleships.
Small 1 PG / 1 CPU = 100m3 Medium 75 PG / 20 CPU = 200m3 Large 500 PG / 30 CPU = 300m3
Why? Because you know how Industrials will turn out being fit 99% of the time. Shield Tank + Cargo Expanders. The rigs should give an order of say 5% increase. That would make Cargo Expanders more for non Cargo Ships that need extra space and the Rigs more optional with a lesser impact.
I think Industrials and other Transports should have close to their max hold - the Cargo Rigs built in instead of 90% of their hold being dependent on a few modules. The Orca should also have its ORE Hold greatly increased to compensate.
This way you can actually use those low slots for things other then cargo and those mids for other things then the only real tanking option. Cargo Expanders just do to much for these ships, I would like to see them dethroned.
Finally I think you should release the Badger Mk III Model for a 3rd Caldari Ship and create a new Amarr Industrial. That creates 3 types of Industrials.
1. Speed 2. Agility 3. Use your Imagination
And leaves 2 left overs that can be middle grounds 1 and 2 and 2 and 3 exclusive to Gallente instead of 4 left overs. |
Imperium Romanus
Paxton Industries Gentlemen's Agreement
27
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 06:44:00 -
[579] - Quote
@CCP_Rise - Why not add an ore hold to the industrials that don't have a clearly defined role and voila! You got ore/mining haulers. |
Dave Stark
3216
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 07:16:00 -
[580] - Quote
Imperium Romanus wrote:@CCP_Rise - Why not add an ore hold to the industrials that don't have a clearly defined role and voila! You got ore/mining haulers.
because then only 2 races have specialised ore haulers and 2 races don't. that's a bigger problem than having a bunch of "somewhere in the middle haulers that don't really do much" |
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Vherana
Valkyrie Industries Valkyrie Coalition
9
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Posted - 2013.06.22 09:00:00 -
[581] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote: BESTOWER Slot layout: 1H(-1), 4M, 6L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
BADGER MARK II Slot layout: 1H(-1), 6M, 4L(+1); 1 turrets , 1 launchers
MAMMOTH Slot layout: 1H, 5M(+2), 5L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers
ITERON MARK V Slot layout: 1H(-1), 5M, 5L; 1 turrets , 0 launchers
Why are you removing 1 utility high slot?
You are killing the use of those big haulers in W-Space! It's mandatory to fit cloak and probe launcher - you may not know, but there are no star gates ;)
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Unforgiven Storm
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
429
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Posted - 2013.06.22 09:43:00 -
[582] - Quote
One last note for now.
There are players that only fly these ships on a daily basis.
There is so much potential to do something good with these ships in the next 2, 3 weeks for the 1.1 patch. Please don't throw away this opportunity, give them something different, listen to the players requests.
History says that probably will pass years before you / CCP comes back to them. Don't be afraid to do something different and give some happiness to all this players.
Don't waste this opportunity CCP Rise.
You will become their new hero. CCP Fozzie?! who is he? Test 1, 2, 3... |
Meduza13
Silver Octopus Infernal Octopus
120
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 10:30:00 -
[583] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
I want to assure everyone that I'm very sensitive about this idea as well, and that we all agree there is a lot of value in variation and racial identity. We value history and racial flavor Thanks for reading, looking forward to feedback as always.
No offence but I'm not buying it.
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Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
365
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 11:03:00 -
[584] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Imperium Romanus wrote:@CCP_Rise - Why not add an ore hold to the industrials that don't have a clearly defined role and voila! You got ore/mining haulers. because then only 2 races have specialised ore haulers and 2 races don't. that's a bigger problem than having a bunch of "somewhere in the middle haulers that don't really do much" Cross training industrials on a new character without implants takes
- 33m 20s to get in - 17h 36m 40s to level 3 - 4d 4h 34m to level 4
Spaceship command level 3 is the only prereq left and every new character starts with it.
This is not an issue any more. Remove insurance. |
Dave Stark
3218
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 11:21:00 -
[585] - Quote
Mara Pahrdi wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Imperium Romanus wrote:@CCP_Rise - Why not add an ore hold to the industrials that don't have a clearly defined role and voila! You got ore/mining haulers. because then only 2 races have specialised ore haulers and 2 races don't. that's a bigger problem than having a bunch of "somewhere in the middle haulers that don't really do much" Cross training industrials on a new character without implants takes - 33m 20s to get in - 17h 36m 40s to level 3 - 4d 4h 34m to level 4 Spaceship command level 3 is the only prereq left and every new character starts with it. This is not an issue any more.
why should you have to train another race to access a specialised hauler? there's having flavour and then there's just forcing people to train **** they don't need because they have no other option. |
Behnid Arcani
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 11:23:00 -
[586] - Quote
Very disappointing. Why don't you play with the warp speeds? Seems like an obvious way to make variations. Some zip across space but carry little, some tank better than an orca, but don't carry as much and fly slow. Some carry more than an orca, but don't have much tank at all, and some have specialised holds.
Or even have in-built warp-stabs?
You looked at the mining barges and gave them different roles based on playstyles: Tank/solo/gang. Didn't anyone do any research into how indies are used in game before "spending too much time on this"? |
Lledrith
Ex Caminus
26
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 11:56:00 -
[587] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:tl;dr of changes: just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers.
have you consider that such change will make the Blockade Runners kinda monotonous. the hole point that CCP is "trying" to make is with this idea of revamp the industrial ship class. and with that request why not ask that all freighters get drop from each faction to with their JF counterparts too. just because CCP is forgetting something as simple like game lore in favor of aesthetics it doesn't mean that they have to.
CCP Rise wrote:About the Mammoth: I just checked in with Art briefly and they confirmed that they simply don't like the way the Mammoth looks. I'll point them to this thread and see what they have to say about your feedback =)
sorry but this whole thread smells to me as an excuse to hide the pure fact that this change is not purely for "tweaking" the ships but to give them a different look.
Graphics vs. Aesthetics |
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
472
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 12:20:00 -
[588] - Quote
Lledrith wrote:Jack Miton wrote:tl;dr of changes: just remove all indies from the game and put in i set of Ore manufactured haulers.
have you consider that such change will make the Blockade Runners kinda monotonous. the hole point that CCP is "trying" to make is with this idea of revamp the industrial ship class. and with that request why not ask that all freighters get drop from each faction to with their JF counterparts too. just because CCP is forgetting something as simple like game lore in favor of aesthetics it doesn't mean that they have to. CCP Rise wrote:About the Mammoth: I just checked in with Art briefly and they confirmed that they simply don't like the way the Mammoth looks. I'll point them to this thread and see what they have to say about your feedback =) sorry but this whole thread smells to me as an excuse to hide the pure fact that this change is not purely for "tweaking" the ships but to give them a different look. Graphics vs. Aesthetics
You're late. The Mammoth issue is already resolved.
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Slykar
Weltenschmiede
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 12:29:00 -
[589] - Quote
I think its a misstake to use only cargo and tanky... we are in eve.. so we need many diffrent ways and for every way a matching ship.
Thats the list of Items we are transporting in eve..
ORE (big) Minerals (medium) Items (medium) Salvage (small) PI - Minerals (big) Gas (dunno medium-big) Ice (big) Ships (very big) Skills and BPO / BPC (very small)
And now CCP want to add all these items to 12 sorts of ships ? - wrong way, we arent in 2005 were we had half of there things.
well thats my idea
CCP add items like a train container... i install a low / rig item to the ship and then i have zero Cargohold + the Modul Bonus. Like 50k for ORE..
for sure max. 1 sort of item per ship... So the Ships have to be fit for the sort of job they have to do.
i realy dont like to see a retriever hauler ORE... because it is better then most industrial ships which are made for hauling... FAIL
Ore-Cargo hold: max 50k m-¦ Ore Mineral-Cargo hold: 10k m-¦ for Minerals Item-Cargo hold: add 15k m-¦ for Low/Med/High/Rig/Sub/Drone/Ammo ++ Salvage-Cargo hold: add 500m-¦ Cargo hold for Salvager Items and maybe Rigs +2 Med +2 Low (because with 500m-¦ ur ship can transport over 1b and it needs a better defense) Pi-Cargo hold: add 25k m-¦ for all sorts of PI Gas-Cargo hold: add 25K m-¦ for Gas Ice-Cargo hold: add 50k m-¦ to the ship for Ice and only for Ice Ship-Cargo hold: 100k m-¦ for ships Security-Cargo hold: 50m-¦ +4 Med + 4 Low.... (Skills / BPO / BPC) ++
And now we can split the Ships... Bestower give 100% bonus to the Cargo hold Moduls and the Sigil (Faster and maybe more) 70% or 50%
or Bestower 20% per Skill lvl and Sigil 15%
We use PVP / PVE Ships to transport expensive items but is that right? i dont think so... we need to have a very good ship only for transport.. maybe t3 industrial for the next summer update. :)
if you rebalance ships... make it right for years! |
Rabbit P
Die Valkyrja Pangu Coalition
5
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 13:52:00 -
[590] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:MAMMOTH
Minmatar Industrial Skill Bonuses: +5% Cargo Capacity +5% Max Velocity
Slot layout: 1H, 5M(+2), 5L(+2); 1 turrets , 0 launchers Fittings: 80 PWG(+20), 750 CPU(+100) Cargo (capacity / capacity with max expanders, t1 expander rigs and all 5 skills): 5700(+600) / 36511m3 Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 310(+36) / 825(-191) / 935(-81) Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 120 / .91(-.09) / 11500000 / 14.5(-1.4) Signature radius: 200(+20)
Rise, after you shift Mammoth to be the largest Minmatar industrial in terms of capacity and Hoarder to be the extra ship, you updated the number of Hoarder, BUT NOT THE MAMMOTH.
We are waiting the number of the MAMMOTH. |
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Utremi Fasolasi
The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden
262
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 14:49:00 -
[591] - Quote
Leskit wrote:Ripard Teg wrote: Rise has done great work so far as he's gone... but I feel like not a lot of imagination has been put into this compared to other ship classes because it's "boring." It's hard to put our faith in an uncertain future for these ships because there's no telling when or if that uncertain future will ever come to pass, particularly with past evidence as a guide.
I'm with Ripard on this one...meaningful racial diversity can be achieved across haulers without making one superior to others, or making them all the nearly identical. Some ideas to help the thought process: resistance bonus active tanking shield/armor amount bonus prop mod bonus agility/align time bonus signature radious bonus to defensive ewar (target spectrum breaker?) etc.
This is a lot better than the stuff folks keep repeating about specialized material bays on haulers. There is no reason for that kind of complexity and it's just dumb. A hauler that can only haul one thing won't get used.
When was the last time anyone actually saw a Primae undocked? Exactly. |
Dave Stark
3221
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 15:00:00 -
[592] - Quote
Utremi Fasolasi wrote:Leskit wrote:Ripard Teg wrote: Rise has done great work so far as he's gone... but I feel like not a lot of imagination has been put into this compared to other ship classes because it's "boring." It's hard to put our faith in an uncertain future for these ships because there's no telling when or if that uncertain future will ever come to pass, particularly with past evidence as a guide.
I'm with Ripard on this one...meaningful racial diversity can be achieved across haulers without making one superior to others, or making them all the nearly identical. Some ideas to help the thought process: resistance bonus active tanking shield/armor amount bonus prop mod bonus agility/align time bonus signature radious bonus to defensive ewar (target spectrum breaker?) etc. This is a lot better than the stuff folks keep repeating about specialized material bays on haulers. There is no reason for that kind of complexity and it's just dumb. A hauler that can only haul one thing won't get used. When was the last time anyone actually saw a Primae undocked? Exactly.
"Planetary Commodities Hold Capacity 1,000 m3" "Command Center Hold Capacity 2,000 m3"
that's the reason the primae is never undocked, not because specialised holds are bad. most t1 industrials in their current state are bigger than those bays. when was the last time you saw an orca undock? see? specialised bays are fine, if they are of a size to be useful.
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Tobias Hareka
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 15:10:00 -
[593] - Quote
Behnid Arcani wrote:Very disappointing. Why don't you play with the warp speeds? Seems like an obvious way to make variations. Some zip across space but carry little
Those are called Blockade Runners (T2, transport ship).
Quote:some tank better than an orca, but don't carry as much and fly slow.
So, pretty much like current deep space transports (T2, transport ship) but a lot more EHP? What you're asking here is T1 ship with more than 300k EHP that isn't a capital. No, thank you.
Quote:Some carry more than an orca, but don't have much tank at all
Already in game. Those are called freighters. |
Andres Talas
Broadcast Or Die
114
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 15:11:00 -
[594] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
The CSM particularly has expressed concerns that the class as a whole is becoming too homogenized. I want to assure everyone that I'm very sensitive about this idea as well, and that we all agree there is a lot of value in variation and racial identity. The challenge with industrials is that unlike most other ship classes, their value rests almost exclusively in 1 or 2 attributes (capacity and low slots), so when attempting to add flavor, the reality is that we would simply be limiting actual options.
You've earned a lot of respect from me with the work you've done, but geeez, you've stuffed this one.
You might be very concerned with how the class as a whole is too homoginised, and then you completely homoginised them.
So. Yeah. You could have made Amarr haulers able to survive a little bit longer from a gank. You could have slung Minimatar haulers some align time. You could have given Caldari haulers a bonus for ECM. You could have kept Gallente haulers with their extra little bit of cargo space, and told them to bring a scout and take their chances.
Instead, you made 12 hulls do the work of two.
Just introduce the ORE Hauler and the ORE Secure Hauler and be done with it. |
Vesan Terakol
Almost Deliberate
9
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 15:20:00 -
[595] - Quote
And since the mammoth is again the biggest, will we get a new model for it? ( i see no other reason for the art department to ask for hoarder to be the biggest) |
Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc. The Fourth District
220
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 15:32:00 -
[596] - Quote
I had some more time to think about industrials and here is my idea of what racial strengths for industrials ships should be:
Amarr: highest cargo capacity for general cargo
Caldari: ability to carry best shield tanks on their industrials, that is best ati-alpha anit-gank survivability among t1 industrials, 2nd best carry capacity for general cargo
Galente: best access to specialised ships as Iterions II, II and IV get enormous specialised cargo holds for ore, minerals, ice, ice products or gass.
Minmatar: worst general cargo capacity but best speed and align times, 2nd best shield tank just after Caldari, one of 3 minmatar industrial ships becomes miniature orca with fleet hangar and refiling services capabilities. Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows... |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1562
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 15:42:00 -
[597] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Utremi Fasolasi wrote: When was the last time anyone actually saw a Primae undocked? Exactly.
"Planetary Commodities Hold Capacity 1,000 m3" "Command Center Hold Capacity 2,000 m3" that's the reason the primae is never undocked, not because specialised holds are bad. most t1 industrials in their current state are bigger than those bays. when was the last time you saw an orca undock? see? specialised bays are fine, if they are of a size to be useful.
Exactly this.
People will use the most efficient hauler for them.
If they're ferrying things back and forth from an asteroid belt, for example, and the ore hold industrial is bigger than the general hauler, they'll use that. One of the reasons people commonly used twin Orcas in big mining operations. One to boost, one to haul. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Auferre
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
11
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 15:55:00 -
[598] - Quote
This update smells of "We want to get to the good stuff, so let's just simplify the boring ships."
Thing is, lots of industrialists and traders spend lots of time in these "boring" ships. We enter wormholes, run gate camps, haul through lowsec and hisec pipeline systems popular with gankers, and in general supply the people who spend all their time blowing each other (and us) up.
We'd like the same attention paid to industrials that went into the excellent frigate, cruiser, BC and BS updates. (I'd settle for the amount of thought that went into the mining barge and exhumer updates.) Let's face it, we're unlikely to see another balance pass on the industrials any time soon - some meaningful choices in this pass beyond tanky hauler and high capacity hauler would be great.
Ore hauler? PI bay? Assembled ship bay? Racial tanking bonuses? All of these are in the game already, it couldn't take much work to implement them using existing industrial hulls.
This is the only balance pass that's made the affected ships less interesting. Why is that? |
Dave Stark
3222
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 16:03:00 -
[599] - Quote
Auferre wrote:This is the only balance pass that's made the affected ships less interesting. Why is that?
that's a lie, you can't make haulers any less interesting than they already are. |
Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
254
|
Posted - 2013.06.22 16:11:00 -
[600] - Quote
1st thing noticed: The new agile, smaller indies can easily fit MWD + Cloak, and with bonus to agility it will make them excellent lowsec haulers, noobs can get into that profession really fast, I like. |
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