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Sticky:[Odyssey 1.1] Tech 1 Industrials, Round 2

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 18 post(s)
War Kitten Panda McLegion 2229	Posted - 2013.06.27 19:49:00 - [391] - Quote CCP Ytterbium wrote: Quickly looks at the thread You got it wrong people, you're not supposed to be happy! You're supposed to riot! Set things on fire with the flame wars! Start the threadnaught! Fire ze missiles! Rage! Let the anger consume you! Now I will have no choice but to mention CCP Rise is doing to a good job. Think about it: he's drinking water in a huge jug instead of a regular glass. How twisted can one be to do that? This has to be punished. Ok, I can add some unhappy. Why don't you give us a specialized bay for collecting the loot spew "reward" mechanic? Let the bay open up (imaginarily, so the art folks don't get uppity about extra work) and automagically collect that crap? grumble grumble I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all.
Shepard Wong Ogeko GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 509	Posted - 2013.06.27 19:58:00 - [392] - Quote Endeavour Starfleet wrote: THAT is a GREAT thing. It's saddening you don't seem to get that in my opinion. It would be great if all the races had an option for a ~50,000m3 general cargohold if you wanted to pick up a ton of planet goo or a hauler spawn. That is what they should do if they don't want to leave a bunch of ship irrelevant and move newbies closer to the spacerich. Put in some big base cargo or 10% cargo bonus. This stuff though is just a handout to everyone who already trained Gallente Industrial V. Sure, Iteron V isn't the biggest any more, but who cares because you get 3 super big specialized haulers. It is so overpowered that the Iteron I and V not being best in class is a small price to pay. The result is the same as what we have now. Train Gallente for hauling, everything else is for gimick fits or people who are bad at math. faux edit; I think the idea of just moving the Iteron II-IV and Hoarder to ORE Industrial skills isn't a bad compromise. The models for them can be changed some where down the line. That way every race gets a small/fast and big/slow hauler, and the specialized stuff can be moved to ORE Industrial. Also, seriously consider doing a fleet hanger instead of ammo bay. Ammo bay is way too restricted for normal use, and too good not to be abused for mineral compression or carrier hauling.
Endeavour Starfleet 897	Posted - 2013.06.27 20:05:00 - [393] - Quote They don't get those specialized types because they don't need it. They have their own benefits unlike the federation which was about to have three of its line made even more worthless than they already are. Not to mention that its main hauler is losing more tank. So training this line is if you want specialized cargo hauling. Others if you want other benefits. It is balanced in that approach. The reason I am saying maybe we need to look and moving them to ORE Industral skill is IF CCP continues to want to nerf these specialized ships for newer players. Not as any kind of silly compromise because you don't get your probe hauler.
Kor Kilden Thukker Tribe Holdings Inc. Gathering Of Nomadic Explorers 22	Posted - 2013.06.27 20:17:00 - [394] - Quote Ellahan Vhektor wrote: if gall an min get "special ships " so should amarr and caldari anything else would be unbalanced and as far as i can remember this was about ship balancing and this would be an unbalancing i really wanted a badger mark 3,4 and 5 too anything else would be unfair plus a badger mk5 would be awesome Sounds like you want all the races and their ships to be identical so you can pick which race to fly by which one looks best. When I started I went through all the frigate and destroyer hull stats deciding which suited my typical play style and personality the best snd chose that. What you're apparently proposing is the single best way to stagnate the universe and make eve boring and not worth playing.
Ersahi Kir Infinite Mobility SpaceMonkey's Alliance 202	Posted - 2013.06.27 20:44:00 - [395] - Quote Honestly I want a special amarr hauler that can hold 1,000,000 m3 of livestock. Because slaves are big at 5 m3 each, and I need space to move all my exotic dancers in one shot.
Shepard Wong Ogeko GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 509	Posted - 2013.06.27 20:54:00 - [396] - Quote Endeavour Starfleet wrote: So training this line is if you want specialized cargo hauling. Others if you want other benefits. It is balanced in that approach. Except none of the Industrials have any sort of bonus or base skill that makes them really stand out except for the huge specialized bays for Gallente. The Bestower gets only 2000m3 more for maxed out cargo. The tank on all of them is still mostly meaningless outside of bait fits for guys with lots of level V skills. They all get the same bonuses and there is no real variation or racial flavor or anything unique, aside from the special bays, which the recent edits to the OP show are being nerfed, and the Hoarder is getting to the point of being straight broken. And I really don't care if the Mammoth gets a probe bonus or not. It's just an idea. I'm sure wormhole guys wouldn't mind a cargo ship that could find its own way out a bit easier. At least it is more of a noticeable difference than 20m/s fast for 2700m3 less cargo, or what ever minor difference is has from a Bestower or Iteron V. It is still flat out tiers of hauls less and hauls more with little other variation, except Gallente with huge special bays for actually useful materials. I know Industrials aren't the sexiest ships, and giving them a battleship tank or interceptor speed or battlecruiser DPS would be bad. But there has to be other reasons to use other ships besides being shut out of hauling certain things through restricted cargoholds.
Vaju Enki Secular Wisdom 852	Posted - 2013.06.27 20:59:00 - [397] - Quote Ok it cool now, it done. Now start working on the important T2 ship rebalance. The Tears Must Flow
Sol Trader Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 0	Posted - 2013.06.27 21:06:00 - [398] - Quote Keep in mind that the ships with bays have free low slots. The bay size needs to be toned down or the lows reduced to make them better but not outrageous.
Zorya Antaram Porphyrogena Medical Leeches First Come First Served 0	Posted - 2013.06.27 21:09:00 - [399] - Quote Any chance that it would be possible to stash contracted goods into special bays as long as the packages contain only ore, PI or ammo?
Endeavour Starfleet 897	Posted - 2013.06.27 21:15:00 - [400] - Quote Sol Trader wrote: Keep in mind that the ships with bays have free low slots. The bay size needs to be toned down or the lows reduced to make them better but not outrageous. No They are specialized haulers and are not unbalanced. The bay is for hauling specialized items and can't be affected by mods. That balances them out with the limited tank.

Shepard Wong Ogeko GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 509	Posted - 2013.06.27 21:33:00 - [401] - Quote Wait, so the special bays are a fixed size? Which mean you can fit a huge amount of specific items, and then fit a tank, warp core stabilizers, nanofibers and stuff in the lows. And no need for cargo rigs either. Wow, that makes the specialized hauler flat out better than everything else, so long as you are either hauling ore, minerals or planet stuff. That makes Gallente flat out overpowered with biggest cargo and room in mids, lows and rigs for stuff to make it more survivable. The 'balance' is restricted cargo holds, but Gallente get 3 ships with the 3 most common materials to transport in bulk. No wonder everyone is loving this idea. Train just 1 level of Gallente Industrial, and you get 3 ships that can haul more ore/minerals/PI than anything else with low slots full of warp core stabilizers and agility mods.
Cerlestes Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance 77	Posted - 2013.06.27 21:41:00 - [402] - Quote Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: That makes Gallente flat out overpowered with biggest cargo and room in mids, lows and rigs for stuff to make it more survivable. The 'balance' is restricted cargo holds, but Gallente get 3 ships with the 3 most common materials to transport in bulk. Gallente has always been overpowered in terms of hauling. They're just a race that likes hauling vOv
Endeavour Starfleet 897	Posted - 2013.06.27 21:45:00 - [403] - Quote You only think its overpowered because you are think of these ships like they are normal haulers instead of specialized ships meant for ONE task. You simply don't understand how they are balanced in my opinion. Yeah it means noobs have a far better chance now of getting into nullsec and actually being able to do something without training into ships that are not meant for the jobs they end up doing like freighters. And you don't like that do you? Only a few whiners who in my opinion never had to spend hours hauling back a hauler spawn. Never had to use a crap ship to do PI. Always had a corp or alliance freighter or orca on call to haul back cans of ore. Those are the whiners who simply do not get that these are SPECIALIZED ships and that the other haulers are for DIFFERENT benefits. Tho in my opinion it's more that some of the advantage of being a large alliance that has very detailed logistics is geting dialed back now that newer players have a far better chance to be relevant. Get over yourselves.
Adunh Slavy 1055	Posted - 2013.06.27 21:46:00 - [404] - Quote So, how long till someone stuffs their mineral hauler full? One hold of pyer is in the tornado price range.
Endeavour Starfleet 897	Posted - 2013.06.27 21:51:00 - [405] - Quote Adunh Slavy wrote: So, how long till someone stuffs their mineral hauler full? One hold of pyer is in the tornado price range. If a person is silly enough to actually do that in hisec. They are going to learn real fast why that is a bad idea. BTW in B4 "NERF TORNADO NAO!"
Shepard Wong Ogeko GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 509	Posted - 2013.06.27 22:15:00 - [406] - Quote Endeavour Starfleet wrote: Only a few whiners who in my opinion never had to spend hours hauling back a hauler spawn. Never had to use a crap ship to do PI. Been there, done that. Hauler spawns, 5 PI characters, manufacturing. I'm a space trucking nerd living full time in nullsec. I was hoping the Industrial rebalance would do more to add variety in terms of bigger cargo space and more survivability. Maybe some other abilities so that they get used for more than just 'warp to 0'. This isn't balance. It is a massive buff to people who want to haul those specific items, and it is all in Gallente Industrial. Everyone else is just more of the same small/fast and big/slow.
Nullshadow Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1	Posted - 2013.06.27 22:28:00 - [407] - Quote I will be grinning from ear to ear if we finally get the "missing" hauler hulls filled in for Caldari and Amarr in a year or two and they turn out to be the specialized POS fuel/moon goo/isotope/ship hauling hulls everyone is asking for... and everyone starts complaining about how terrible that is and how you have to crosstrain into those or you'll be useless, etc. I don't expect it, but with this precedent set it starts looking possible.
Zaxix Long Jump. 144	Posted - 2013.06.27 22:33:00 - [408] - Quote Ersahi Kir wrote: Honestly I want a special amarr hauler that can hold 1,000,000 m3 of livestock. Because slaves are big at 5 m3 each, and I need space to move all my exotic dancers in one shot. I second this. I will become a very rich man if there is a specialized slave moving hauler. Seriously. You Curse residents know what I'm talking about. *Prodigal Frog*
Utremi Fasolasi The Jagged Edge Rebel Alliance of New Eden 263	Posted - 2013.06.27 22:39:00 - [409] - Quote Ellahan Vhektor wrote: if gall an min get "special ships " so should amarr and caldari anything else would be unbalanced and as far as i can remember this was about ship balancing and this would be an unbalancing i really wanted a badger mark 3,4 and 5 too anything else would be unfair plus a badger mk5 would be awesome Having some reasons to cross train occasionally is a good thing.
Eladaris RubberDuckies -Entropy- 337	Posted - 2013.06.27 22:59:00 - [410] - Quote Zifrian wrote: On thing I was wondering though, wouldn't it be a better idea to move the itty 2,3,4 and hoarder to ORE? People would still have to train another skill, but now they seem to have unique roles. Ore could buy/steal the plans to the ships. But it's just a thought for storyline. Technically everyone already has Gal. Indy trained... no? Post the Itty V skill req. removal I can't imagine many people who don't have it trained. And if they moved it to Ore, you'd have a WHOLE RAFT of people who'd magically get new SP. Maybe that's why people have been screaming for it? Except, CCP would probably have to announce the swap half a year in advance (they did that for Destroyers / BC's) and we'd be stuck twiddling our thumbs until then. I'm fine with this solution. It's tidier. I would like to see new T2 variants though. POS Module bays, POS Fuel bays, etc. The current T1 indy's carry standard newbie stuff, but a hauler for a the space rich to haul more advanced stuff would be keen. Elder Ozzian wrote: How about fuel ? What ship I am supposed to use for hauling... 1. Jump fuel, 2. Pos fuel, 3. Siege/Triage/Industrial Core fuel? Yup, 'dat. Abus Finkel wrote: I see no reason for anyone to train anything other than Gallente industrials if this goes through. Why use any other races if Gallente can do the same plus much more. Funny notion, you can train all four races to IV, in about the same time you train Gal. to V... and reap ALL the benefits of all the races. It's not like everyone trains one Indy to V and leaves the others completely untrained. Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote: That makes Gallente flat out overpowered with biggest cargo and room in mids, lows and rigs for stuff to make it more survivable. The 'balance' is restricted cargo holds, but Gallente get 3 ships with the 3 most common materials to transport in bulk. No wonder everyone is loving this idea. Train just 1 level of Gallente Industrial, and you get 3 ships that can haul more ore/minerals/PI than anything else with low slots full of warp core stabilizers and agility mods. Train it to IV, and when you need to haul your specific thing you can break out that specific ship and haul that specific thing. Most pilots can do that in 3-4 days without having to break the bank on an Indy V skill. It gives folks a reason to cross-train. Anyone looking for a max hauler isn't going to train Gal. to V, they'll train whatever race offers what they need, and then train Gal. Indy to IV and buy whichever of the specialized bays offer what they need.

Endeavour Starfleet 898	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:12:00 - [411] - Quote Nullshadow wrote: I will be grinning from ear to ear if we finally get the "missing" hauler hulls filled in for Caldari and Amarr in a year or two and they turn out to be the specialized POS fuel/moon goo/isotope/ship hauling hulls everyone is asking for... and everyone starts complaining about how terrible that is and how you have to crosstrain into those or you'll be useless, etc. I don't expect it, but with this precedent set it starts looking possible. Personally I hope that they make a Tech 2 rebalance that combines POS and Capital ship tending into one hold with a very good sized bay. I am not quite sure if doing it with T1 is the best idea in the world but hopefully CCP can share their thoughts on that later on. But yes crosstraining. I love how people that are likely on ship and combat training attributes with implants are complaining about having to training into what Gal III? The change to 10 percent harms newer players so thats why I am personally against that change. Yet people complaining about having to do a TINY amount of crosstraining is beyond silly. A little time lost on their current training plan is nothing to time lost for a noob with his first Venture. Now I suspect that in the far future these hull will be moved to ORE. And that ORE will have a full lineup of HIGHLY specialized one task ships for the game. But that is well after many things that need to be fixed and rebalanced first and for now. These new ships will solve quite a few issues that keeps newer players and corps out of nullsec.
Shepard Wong Ogeko GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 509	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:18:00 - [412] - Quote Endeavour Starfleet wrote: These new ships will solve quite a few issues that keeps newer players and corps out of nullsec. It does nothing really noteworthy for people in nullsec. These ships will still die 10 seconds after landing in a bubble.
Tiber Ibis Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 63	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:25:00 - [413] - Quote Abus Finkel wrote: CCP Rise wrote: Abus Finkel wrote: I see no reason for anyone to train anything other than Gallente industrials if this goes through. Why use any other races if Gallente can do the same plus much more. For hauling needs outside of the special bays you will generally get better performance from options other than Gallente. For a new player they can spend around 23d 16h to get Gallente Industrial V and get 37152m3 general purpose cargo 64500m3 minerals 67500m3 PI 63000m3 Ore Or they can spend the same time getting for example Amarr Industrial V and get 2049m3 more general purpose cargo 25299m3 less minerals 28299m3 less PI 23799m3 less Ore Choosing anything other than Gallente seems like a waste of time to me. This is why they will need to release new racial industrials to transport various materials sometime in the future.
Edward Pierce GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:27:00 - [414] - Quote Eladaris wrote: Funny notion, you can train all four races to IV, in about the same time you train Gal. to V... and reap ALL the benefits of all the races. What benefits from the other races? Gallente is the only winner here. Eladaris wrote: It's not like everyone trains one Indy to V and leaves the others completely untrained. This is exactly what people do, why would anyone want to be able to fly more than one race's industrial when they're all supposed to do the same thing?
Eladaris RubberDuckies -Entropy- 337	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:28:00 - [415] - Quote Tiber Ibis wrote: Abus Finkel wrote: Choosing anything other than Gallente seems like a waste of time to me. This is why they will need to release new racial industrials to transport various materials sometime in the future. If you really want more homogenization, please read the first thread with 30+ pages of people screaming about not wanting homogenization. I hope they release T2 hauler's with specialized bays for special products (Fuel, POS modules, etc), but I hope they take their sweet time doing it, because those ships have hefty entry requirements and they would be contingent upon properly balanced and useful DST's.
Edward Pierce GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:30:00 - [416] - Quote Tiber Ibis wrote: This is why they will need to release new racial industrials to transport various materials sometime in the future. That's the problem. With this "re-balance" move they are effectively creating a larger imbalance than what we have now, and rather than make a simple fix to improve the imbalance, they are creating a pretty big gap between the races that will require huge efforts from the design and art group to create 8 new ships to fill. They should have stuck with their simple fix and moved on to bigger and better projects, like HACs and Command Ships.
Edward Pierce GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 56	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:35:00 - [417] - Quote Eladaris wrote: If you really want more homogenization, please read the first thread with 30+ pages of people screaming about not wanting homogenization.. The first thread went 42 pages in 7 days before Rise announced he would redo the whole thing. This thread is at 21 pages in 1 day; if the number of pages of people calling foul is any indication of how good a rebalance is then we should just go back to the first idea. edit; add to that the fact that a good chunk of the posts in the other thread were complaining about the mammoth model not sticking around as top minmatar hauler, which we don't have here.
Eladaris RubberDuckies -Entropy- 337	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:39:00 - [418] - Quote Edward Pierce wrote: Eladaris wrote: Funny notion, you can train all four races to IV, in about the same time you train Gal. to V... and reap ALL the benefits of all the races. What benefits from the other races? Gallente is the only winner here. Eladaris wrote: It's not like everyone trains one Indy to V and leaves the others completely untrained. This is exactly what people do, why would anyone want to be able to fly more than one race's industrial when they're all supposed to do the same thing? We don't have homogenization in any other class of ship in Eve. Why should we have it in haulers? I personally trained one race's indy to V (Minnie) for their BR. I wanted a faster aligning freighter, because who needs all that cargo space if it takes forever to get there. The cargo bays were adequate, and the ships were fast. I trained everything else to 3, because hell, what's two days to unlock a ton of other ship options. Now that I can fly everything with a I in the skill, you could just do that. Maybe someday you'll find a Itty V full of stuff somewhere in space, and want to 'borrow' it. Being able to actually hop in the pilot's seat sort of makes sense. Heck, some pilots have probably unlocked the Orca on the rare chance they find a solo miner dual-shipping an Orca / Hulk back in the day. In lots of cases it's as cut and dried as "This ship hauls the most, so it wins". In that case it's another Amarr Victory. In some cases it's a whole fleet of ships to carry some things better, so it's another Gall. win, but they've always been the top haulers. And some people have quirky weird needs, like the ability to fit a launcher and a cloak on their BR.
Tiber Ibis Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 63	Posted - 2013.06.27 23:49:00 - [419] - Quote I like the changes but Gallente seem a little too good. I like the direction you went with Caldari having the best base stats, and the amarr being the kings of potential capacity. I think Caldari should at least match Gallente though in terms of the max potential capacity. And then Minmatar are a little lacking with the lowest capacity, and also an ammo/charge bay. I don't know if this is because I haven't thought this through thoroughly, and their may be some awesome way to get great mineral capacity by manufacturing ammo and then refining it at destination. But then it seems if there was that slight meta edge you just nerfed it anyway by making the ship much larger than the others to transport. Why not give the minmatar a module bay, or something a little more useful. (EDIT) Better yet, why not make all the gallente industrials specialised in some way. They would be the best in their area at transporting the largest amount, although the price you pay is a MUCH smaller standard bay. I really like the direction you are going here Rise, but I think it just needs another look at to get the balance right.
Ellahan Vhektor DIVERGENT PROXY 9	Posted - 2013.06.28 00:01:00 - [420] - Quote dont care just give me a bager mk5 plz GòöGòùGòæGòæ GòöGòùGòæGòæGòª Gòª-áGòªGòªGòöGòù GòöGòù GòªGòöGòùGòöGòùGòöGòù GòæGòæGòáGòú GòÜGòùGòáGòúGòæ Gòæ-áGòæGòæGòÜGòù GòáGòú GòæGòáGòúGòáGòúGòáGò¥ GòÜGò¥GòæGòæ GòÜGò¥GòæGòæGò¬ Gòæ-áGò¬GòæGòÜGò¥ GòæGòæ GòæGòæGòÜGòæGòæGòæ



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