Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 30 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 18 post(s) |
Talvu
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:07:00 -
[241] - Quote
Well I guess I'm gonna have to sell my Sigil then as I'm not seeing any reason for piloting anything other than a Badger MK1 for my particular needs with these changes. I can foresee a lot of Badger mk1s, Bestowers, and Badger mk2s if these changes go through. Can't say I'm happy with these changes one bit frankly, feels like these are even less inspired than the original proposal. Also why do you keep trying to skirt impact that cargo expanders have on these ships? |
Phoenix Jones
Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking
30
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:10:00 -
[242] - Quote
Thats what was missing.
The New Ammo Hauler (Hoarder), should be able to haul POS modules in its hold also (or the new Iteron II). One of them should be able to grab and haul/move POS modules/batteries, hangers, SBU's, Claim Units, etc.
That would cover about everything needed regarding mass hauling. |
Denidil
Turalyon Plus
606
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:14:00 -
[243] - Quote
Talvu wrote:Well I guess I'm gonna have to sell my Sigil then as I'm not seeing any reason for piloting anything other than a Badger MK1 for my particular needs with these changes. I can foresee a lot of Badger mk1s, Bestowers, and Badger mk2s if these changes go through. Can't say I'm happy with these changes one bit frankly, feels like these are even less inspired than the original proposal. Also why do you keep trying to skirt impact that cargo expanders have on these ships?
you're not very bright. Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
507
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:25:00 -
[244] - Quote
Catherine Laartii wrote:Chris Winter wrote:Denidil wrote:Chris Winter wrote:
And then there's the problem with tanks being nerfed across the board. Ganker's paradise...
NERFED? did you read the changes? Yeah. The big haulers, the ones people will actually use, all got their base tanks nerfed, and their CPU nerfed so they can't fit as big of a shield tank anymore. Ganker's paradise. They didn't get their CPU nerfed to fit less of a shield tank. They got it nerfed so ships like the badger 2 didn't have more base cpu than a FREAKING TITAN. Also, they can actually fit BETTER tanks now due to the extra PG. Previously they were unable to fit large shield extenders. Now they can. This is a good thing.
So long as there is still enough cpu to fit an expanded probe launcher, it isn't so bad. I know the Mammoth in particular has more cpu than you can really use. |
NiftyWolfie Aishai
Legion of the Strike Wolves Swollen Starfish Alliance
21
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:36:00 -
[245] - Quote
Nice changes, this should have something to please everyone |
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:39:00 -
[246] - Quote
Two things I would like to point out here, first the cargo holds you're introducing all have a base capacity that is at least 30% higher than the largest regular hauler with full expanders and racial skill to 5, with skills this differential goes up to 75%. This makes them the only viable option for that particular activity.
The activities for which you are adding these special ship roles are some of the most usual uses for T1 industrial ships, so you are effectively re-introducing the same imbalance we had before, and curiously enough the Gallente went from the best T1 industrial to the only T1 industrial skill worth using. Wanting to move Ore, PI or Minerals in anything other than Gallente industrials leaves you in an even worse situation than we have now where the Iteron V is only 26.5% better than the Bestower.
So much for rebalancing...
CCP Rise wrote:To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.
Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3 Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3
There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:
Gallente: 38433m3 Minmatar: 28259m3
In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.
I prefer the new version
So now for anyone moving Minerals, Ore or PI commodities (what else is worth moving in a T1 hauler?) the only choice is Gallente, not by a 26.5% difference, but a 75% difference. Yeah, I liked that newer version better too.
You wanted to introduce a little racial variety, but all you ended up doing was break the class even more than it was originally, give those specialized industrials a 10-15% extra capacity in their specialized cargo holds at max skill so not everyone feels obligated to train Gallente Industrial V. Or at least remove the hull bonus to the special cargo hold so that people who feel the need to cross train only need to train them to 1 to get the full benefit. |
Omnathious Deninard
The Scope Gallente Federation
1214
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:53:00 -
[247] - Quote
Edward Pierce wrote:Two things I would like to point out here, first the cargo holds you're introducing all have a base capacity that is at least 30% higher than the largest regular hauler with full expanders and racial skill to 5, with skills this differential goes up to 75%. This makes them the only viable option for that particular activity. The activities for which you are adding these special ship roles are some of the most usual uses for T1 industrial ships, so you are effectively re-introducing the same imbalance we had before, and curiously enough the Gallente went from the best T1 industrial to the only T1 industrial skill worth using. Wanting to move Ore, PI or Minerals in anything other than Gallente industrials leaves you in an even worse situation than we have now where the Iteron V is only 26.5% better than the Bestower. So much for rebalancing... CCP Rise wrote:To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.
Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3 Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3
There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:
Gallente: 38433m3 Minmatar: 28259m3
In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.
I prefer the new version So now for anyone moving Minerals, Ore or PI commodities (what else is worth moving in a T1 hauler?) the only choice is Gallente, not by a 26.5% difference, but a 75% difference. Yeah, I liked that newer version better too. You wanted to introduce a little racial variety, but all you ended up doing was break the class even more than it was originally, give those specialized industrials a 10-15% extra capacity in their specialized cargo holds at max skill so not everyone feels obligated to train Gallente Industrial V. Or at least remove the hull bonus to the special cargo hold so that people who feel the need to cross train only need to train them to 1 to get the full benefit. They are extremely niche roles for the ships. Making a general bay more attractive still. The following will be true after this: Iteron Mark II = space pi+Ĥata as it will be able to hold 6 million units of minerals. That is 35 Mill isk in Tritanium. Iteron Mark III = PI commodities. Iteron Mark IV = Mining operation is in progress. Hoarder = Another space pi+Ĥata as it will hold millions of isk worth of charges. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Deirdre Anethoel
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:55:00 -
[248] - Quote
Quote: So now for anyone moving Minerals, Ore or PI commodities (what else is worth moving in a T1 hauler?) the only choice is Gallente, not by a 26.5% difference, but a 75% difference. Yeah, I liked that newer version better too.
If you're serious about what you do, you move that in orca or freighter. T1 haulers are made for casual players and hauling your stuff (bit of ships, modules, etc), and will still be used for that. |
Talvu
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 21:58:00 -
[249] - Quote
Denidil wrote:Talvu wrote:Well I guess I'm gonna have to sell my Sigil then as I'm not seeing any reason for piloting anything other than a Badger MK1 for my particular needs with these changes. I can foresee a lot of Badger mk1s, Bestowers, and Badger mk2s if these changes go through. Can't say I'm happy with these changes one bit frankly, feels like these are even less inspired than the original proposal. Also why do you keep trying to skirt impact that cargo expanders have on these ships? you're not very bright. You do not offer any counter argument nor inquire for a better explanation, and claim me dim? Have you even look at the stats proposed, if so then surely you've seen how the badger mk1 has better cargo capacity and defensive potential while still offering comparable mobility? I see the Bestower getting a used a lot due to max general capacity and the Badger Mk2 for best capacity with minimal SP investment. |
SubStandard Rin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:00:00 -
[250] - Quote
Swiftstrike1 wrote:New names for the iterons with special roles plz. They are no longer merely the 3rd or 4th version of the same ship after all :)
I agree good choices only thing i miss is that I think that some of the Itty hulls should get another base skill instead of Gallente Industrial it should require Ore Industrial.
(Ore hauler for example)
and im still missing a smuggler industrial with minimal bay but that might be "hoping" as a Tec2 version since moving drugs around is a pita.
|
|
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
151
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:06:00 -
[251] - Quote
Edward Pierce wrote:Two things I would like to point out here, first the cargo holds you're introducing all have a base capacity that is at least 22% higher than the largest regular hauler with full expanders and racial skill to 5, with skills this differential goes up to 37%. This makes them the only viable option for that particular activity. The activities for which you are adding these special ship roles are some of the most usual uses for T1 industrial ships, so you are effectively re-introducing the same imbalance we had before, and curiously enough the Gallente went from the best T1 industrial to the only T1 industrial skill worth using. Wanting to move Ore, PI or Minerals in anything other than Gallente industrials leaves you in an even worse situation than we have now where the Iteron V is only 26.5% better than the Bestower. So much for rebalancing... CCP Rise wrote:To the above concerns - I can see that you are able to make a list of "best" by capacity, but in reality the difference between capability between Amarr and Gallente is tiny.
Gallente max capacity (t1 rigs): 38433m3 Amarr max capacity (t1 rigs): 39201m3
There is 2% difference. If you feel compelled to cross train because technically Amarr is at the top now, I think that's okay. The old gap looked like this:
Gallente: 38433m3 Minmatar: 28259m3
In the old scenario, 26.5% difference actually was enough that you were basically compelled to train one race.
I prefer the new version So now for anyone moving Minerals, Ore or PI commodities (what else is worth moving in a T1 hauler?) the only choice is Gallente, not by a 26.5% difference, but a 75% difference. Yeah, I liked that newer version better too. You wanted to introduce a little racial variety, but all you ended up doing was break the class even more than it was originally, give those specialized industrials a 10-15% extra capacity in their specialized cargo holds at max skill so not everyone feels obligated to train Gallente Industrial V. Or at least remove the hull bonus to the special cargo hold so that people who feel the need to cross train only need to train them to 1 to get the full benefit. Allow me to introduce you to the Giant Secure Container. |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium
3820
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:07:00 -
[252] - Quote
Evelgrivion wrote:The ammunition bay seems like an avenue for considerable abuse; you can fit quite a few hoarders inside of a carrier's ship maintenance bay, and each of those hoarders can be filled to the brim with ammunition for mineral compression purposes.
I would suggest that there is an obvious way to avoid the problem: remove mineral compression. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players |
Vartan Sarkisian
Inner Visions Of Sound Mind
75
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:07:00 -
[253] - Quote
How about going for something radical like scrapping the Indies as they are now, replacing them with a couple of hulls (one about say 30kme and another around 100kme cargo space) (or something else that is decided) that take interchangeable subsystems like the Tengu's etc. The subsystems would enable you to tailor the ship to your needs, more EHP, Warp Stabbed, More Cargo, Faster Align, Cov Ops etc. You can swap and change the subsystems depending on what you want to do, the ship could be made by ORE and then we wouldn't have a bunch of ships with a different model that basically do the same thing.
People could get a "refund" on all the points that they have accrued so far training 4 races indy level to whatever level they have and replace it with a non racial skill just called Industrial, the different levels could give the sub systems a better percentage or lower cost to use etc. I've seen things you people wouldn't believe. Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion. I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate. All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... Time to die. |
Orakkus
Winds of Dawn Kraken.
107
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:09:00 -
[254] - Quote
Edward Pierce wrote: You wanted to introduce a little racial variety, but all you ended up doing was break the class even more than it was originally, give those specialized industrials a 10-15% extra capacity in their specialized cargo holds at max skill so not everyone feels obligated to train Gallente Industrial V. Or at least remove the hull bonus to the special cargo hold so that people who feel the need to cross train only need to train them to 1 to get the full benefit.
Stop being lazy. Training Gallente Industrial to V isn't a hard task. Second, you get a significant benefit over the heavy haulers at even Gallente Industrial I, which takes all of, what, 15 to 20 minutes to train? No one is going to train up to Gallente Industrial V if they don't need to, so that obligation bit is nonsense. |
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:15:00 -
[255] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote: Allow me to introduce you to the Giant Secure Container.
Good point, I hadn't considered that extra 23%.
I look forward to seeing what they come up with for the missing 8 industrial ships needed to round this whole thing up, because after all, this comment from Rise still applies:
CCP Rise wrote:Quote:Sorry, what do you mean by unfair? There are already a lot of things, like the resist VS repbonus thingie, that's also unfair in most of the cases. As you say, its resist vs repair. In the case of Indies, it would have had to be: resist vs nothing because Caldari/Amarr have no ship. This would have been the only case in the whole game of one race having access to a role that wasn't balanced in some way for the other races with another ship. |
Edward Pierce
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:16:00 -
[256] - Quote
Orakkus wrote:Edward Pierce wrote: You wanted to introduce a little racial variety, but all you ended up doing was break the class even more than it was originally, give those specialized industrials a 10-15% extra capacity in their specialized cargo holds at max skill so not everyone feels obligated to train Gallente Industrial V. Or at least remove the hull bonus to the special cargo hold so that people who feel the need to cross train only need to train them to 1 to get the full benefit.
Stop being lazy. Training Gallente Industrial to V isn't a hard task. Second, you get a significant benefit over the heavy haulers at even Gallente Industrial I, which takes all of, what, 15 to 20 minutes to train? No one is going to train up to Gallente Industrial V if they don't need to, so that obligation bit is nonsense. Then why address the imbalance in the first place? If training Gallente Industrial to V is no big deal, lets just leave it as it is now and move on to more important ships to rebalance. |
Ash Katara
The Damned and the Doomed
7
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:17:00 -
[257] - Quote
Anybody want a pair of Hoarders, I have no use for ammo haulers. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
507
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:27:00 -
[258] - Quote
Talvu wrote: I can foresee a lot of Badger mk1s, Bestowers, and Badger mk2s if these changes go through. Can't say I'm happy with these changes one bit frankly, feels like these are even less inspired than the original proposal.
These really are sort of thoughtless and hamfisted changes. CCP Rise should have stopped when he had to say "We feel that these are already pushing the boundaries of tech 1 specialization..."
There are a ton of bonuses they could choose from to give the T1 industrials a little more utility or make them stand out from the others. The specialized bays are a straight up nerf to anyone who already owns one for general hauling. I know it is going to involve me reprocessing a ton of Hoarders because an ammo bay on an otherwise unbonused industrial is worthless. No one will use it on a battlefield as an ammo cache. Carriers can do this AND let you fit more drones and refit other weapons, and blockade runners can use blops bridges to travel with and supply bombers.
The new indy meta with this is going to be Badger for tank and (still) Itty V for max cargo. The Itteron IV will no doubt see some use as an ore truck for mining fleets, but people will still need to buy another indy to use for general hauling. The cargo and agility/velocity bonuses still means there is no big difference between the industrials and easy cross training means even less reason to use them since you aren't locked into 1 race so much.
You like the idea of a Battle Badger? shield resits Want an ammo cache ship? make the cargo bay a fleet hanger with refit Ore truck to pick up from an Orca? big agility bonus Ore truck for solo miners using jet cans? tractor beam bonus, survey bonus for finding the next good rock General support industrial? remote rep/cap bonus How about a Gallente drone boat support? drone bonus damage/hitpoints/repair/e-war Get between trade hubs quickly? agility/warp speed and a cap bonus to get between distant gates. A POS managing ship? anchor time bonus, maybe a cyno bonus (shorter duration, less LO consumption)
They should be choosing bonuses that make people want to use one industrial over another because is generally better for certain tasks. Not forcing people to buy multiple industrials because they are locked into only hauling specific items with specific ships. Over all, these changes mean that T1 industrials are still fairly crappy, and people will still make a bee line to Orcas for overall utility and freighters for serious cargo hauling.
Seriously, with the skill changes, you can get into an Orca with big cargo, fleet hanger, ship hanger, refit, drones, serious tank for about the same time it takes to max out an Iteron V. The T1 industrials need bonuses aside from just cargo/speed to make them useful beyond ships for people to poor to get an Orca. |
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
38
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:33:00 -
[259] - Quote
To facilitate more feedback, I've edited PyFA's database file to reflect the proposed changes.
Patched PyFA 1.1.15 database file
Please direct any feedback about this PyFA patch to it's separate thread so as to keep this rebalance thread on-topic. |
Voith
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
114
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:37:00 -
[260] - Quote
Good Job, now do command ships. |
|
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
232
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:39:00 -
[261] - Quote
Not everyone can afford an orca though, or have the time to grind to get one. Tiericide is tiers by another name. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
103
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:40:00 -
[262] - Quote
Freighdee Katt wrote:Evelgrivion wrote:The ammunition bay seems like an avenue for considerable abuse; you can fit quite a few hoarders inside of a carrier's ship maintenance bay, and each of those hoarders can be filled to the brim with ammunition for mineral compression purposes. Nerf incoming.
Ouch, and I did like the ammo bay the most... |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
232
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 22:45:00 -
[263] - Quote
No need for a nerf, abusing mineral compression is just emergent gameplay... Tiericide is tiers by another name. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
507
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 23:05:00 -
[264] - Quote
Little Dragon Khamez wrote:Not everyone can afford an orca though, or have the time to grind to get one.
You could sell 2 Plex and have enough isk for an Orca and a a Mackinaw if you didn't want to grind for it in game.
The only thing you are forced to wait on in Eve is the training time. And an Orca now takes as long as a maxed Iteron V, or the special Iterons.
For specialized bays, they should make ORE cargo ships that use the ORE Industrial skill. Give the racial ones racial flavor to make them different from each other, but leave them as general cargo ships. As others have pointed out, with these changes Gallente is still the one to train for general hauling, and now has even more reason for being the only to train being the only race that has remotely useful special bays. |
Chamile Eonic
The Church of MDAMC
3
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 23:26:00 -
[265] - Quote
I'm sure smarter people than me will help find all the exploits/emergent gameplay.
From my perspective you just turned industrials from bland and boring to something interesting and useful. Well Done! |
GooieGoober
Miranda Regional Technologies
1
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 23:26:00 -
[266] - Quote
With all this talk about specialized cargo holds...what about specialized cargo Modules. :)
Drop in a mid or low module that converts some cargo space over to increased specialized space. i.e. drop in an ore cargo specializer and it converts 2000 m3 generic cargo space to 10,000 m3 ore space? Or is this too difficult to modify the base ship programming? |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
945
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 23:49:00 -
[267] - Quote
How about one that specializes in fuel like isotopes, stront, and liquid ozone? This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Romeo Deluxe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2013.06.26 23:50:00 -
[268] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Alright, here we go. ...
Looking forward to your feedback, but please don't expect version 3, I have to get on with my life at some point
Your life belongs to us. |
LockOnStratus
Frankenmouse Inc Class Act Cartel
0
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 00:04:00 -
[269] - Quote
Why does the Iteron 3 become the comodies ship when the Iteron 4 has a special commodity version? Also wil the Quafe edition get a ore or commodities bay? |
Haedonism Bot
Viziam Amarr Empire
398
|
Posted - 2013.06.27 00:08:00 -
[270] - Quote
This thread has too many pages.
Here's a good change to industrials - quadruple their cargo capacity across the board, eliminate all mid slots (who needs mid slots anyway?), and make it so that they can't warp to gates at zero - 10k or 15k is fine.
Also give them all a new paint job. Maybe pink, or school bus yellow, or white with red concentric circle patterns. Join the Revolutionary Front and liberate New Eden from it's stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 [9] 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 30 .. 30 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |