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Joan Greywind Temnava Legion No Holes Barred 35	Posted - 2013.07.04 05:48:00 - [1] - Quote This has probably been discussed before, but I have been lurking on the forums for a while and can't find any good discussions about it. Currently, other than the reason of good fights, there isn't much motive to actually engage in pvp in WH space. If you run into a active gang or WH and they don't want to PVP, they just wait it out for a day till the connection drops, no biggie. In null if you don't fight you lose your territory +income. Eviction also recently got a shadow nerf with the SMA "working as inteded" bug. And even without that bug, eviction were really not worth the cost because the other corp would just self destruct their assets. The only major pvp we find in wh space, is either personal vendettas evictions, loggofski traps, and fights that are actually orchestrated by both sides, which really sux as pvp in eve should be non consensual (most of the times at least). I really cringe when I see **** like yea let's fight but no more than 15 ppl and no capitals. I really don't have that many ideas to fix this problem (if it is a problem anyways). One of them might be just making the self destruct not work inside pos shields might be a good start. That way at least evictions can be somewhat profitable, and maybe that way people have more incentive to actually pvp. It just seems you have to fish really hard to find serious pvp in wh's these days (killing ventures and drakes don't count). So please if you disagree with anything, or like to add something go ahead, refraining from you are noob comments and dome fights are cool.
Jack Miton Semper Ubi Sub Ubi 2081	Posted - 2013.07.04 07:00:00 - [2] - Quote 'Youre not in my fleet' = plenty of a conflict driver
Winthorp Straya. Scrap Iron Flotilla. 135	Posted - 2013.07.04 07:09:00 - [3] - Quote So stop whining and make some content, look at WH space daily kills close your eyes pick a corp at random and go invade them. Content achieved.
Joan Greywind Temnava Legion No Holes Barred 35	Posted - 2013.07.04 07:27:00 - [4] - Quote Well let me clarify more before this gets out of hand. What I am not saying is, that there is zero pvp in WH or if you go and look for it you won't find it. What I am saying is, outside of the reasons I stated in my first post, mainly having fun killing other people (which is a great reason by in and itself), we still don't have any in game incentive to actually go and PVP. I could live in WH and not participate in any sort of pvp and still reap the all the rewards. In null sec if you don't pvp you lose your sov, income etc. Sure in WH you have evictions, but evictions are not a profitable venture at all due to current mechanics, and are done for meta reasons. And most evictions, end up in posing up and self destructing, so there is no incentive to do them anymore, unless you really hate the corp. For instance look at the r64 moon changes, because of that small change we have seen the creation of a big war and much more pvp oppurtunities. Sadly in WH we don't have anything that drives pvp now, other than it's fun. The better pvper should be rewarded for the skill and risks they take, not only by killboard entries and bragging rights, but actually by in game rewards. And guys no I don't want wh space to be like null, all I am saying that if you choose not to pvp you have to lose something, and if you do pvp and win, you will get some form of in game reward (generally speaking of course, not all pvp should be based on rewards, at least some of it, like evictions). Hence my suggestion in the first post (maybe it's bad, I really don't know) about evictions at least reaping the ships and modules of the other corp, without them being able to destroy (self destruct) them so easily. And please keep it constructive, I am not whinning, I am not being lazy and not looking hard enough for pvp, I am only discussing a point of view, that maybe can make WH space a little better. I can't force you, but if your comments are something like come fight me, or just go outside your hole and you will find pvp, then please keep it for yourself. So post away, and remember I am sensitive so don't call be bad names and watch your tones.
Zara Arran Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.07.04 07:53:00 - [5] - Quote Usually you get the "how dare you invade that group, they are pvpers"-thread, when people did try to invade a WH. Make up your mind, people! In all honesty, I understand what you are saying and you have a point. I do think however that we have done this ourselves, with always batphoning, corporations and alliances growing bigger and bigger, moaning about politics and the 'moral' behind an invasion, etc. -á
Zara Arran Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 37	Posted - 2013.07.04 07:55:00 - [6] - Quote Jack Miton wrote: 'Youre not in my fleet' = plenty of a conflict driver small scale: very true. larger scale: if only.... -á
MadbaM Hard Knocks Inc. 39	Posted - 2013.07.04 08:16:00 - [7] - Quote I don't think anyone in WH's would disagree with invasions, every time you jump a WH your invading new space. What allot of people have issue with is evictions of PVP entities. I don't think iv ever had problems getting someone who can fight, to fight, if your unable to get an engagement in WH space you have shown your hand to early. Revealed you strength to a scout or simply not been imaginative enough to create a situation someone would wan't to engage you. Regardless there are 100 different ways to get a good fight in WH's not to mention the opportunity's to PVP in low and null sec. You stick an orca on a hole in an active system and tell me how long it takes you to get PVP, and when it comes don't blob it fight it with equal strength or maybe even less. See if you get an escalation from all the people sat in shields that told there friends it was bait, but come anyway because Orca. Or just go sit in someones hole every time they try to run sites drop probes go find them disrupt there ability to make isk, you will get a fight. You can even drop a pos in system, force them to come remove you and fight at the timer. It's really annoying when people come on forums complaining that CCP should do something about the lack of pew pew, people seem to forget that we are customers of CCP and so are the care bears not wanting to be shot. EVE is a huge sandbox and offers so much freedom for the meta game over other comparable titles. Use this freedom creatively come up with a new strategy instead of going to the forums complaining and asking other people to do the work for you. But i will give you one idea free of charge to spice up one option you have already disregarded as boring. Next time offer your would be opponent an arranged fight between x number or people in x ships and bet a bill on it. And just to make extra sure no one gets cheated you can send me the isk and ill act as banker for you. Deal?
Evangelina Nolen Sama Guild 23	Posted - 2013.07.04 08:20:00 - [8] - Quote This is why we need moon goo in W-space.
Job Valador Super Moose Defence Force 74	Posted - 2013.07.04 08:30:00 - [9] - Quote Evangelina Nolen wrote: This is why we need moon goo in W-space. bad idea is bad [IMG]http://imageshack.us/a/img836/7059/c00286794da9496e2b391.jpg[/IMG] Rule 34 ^
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Polarized. 752	Posted - 2013.07.04 09:02:00 - [10] - Quote Ever since I came to C6 wormhole space, iGÇÖve felt like the OP does. After you kill a few caps and have a 30 man armour T3 brawl, you realise that this is pretty much all there is and other than the fun of a good fight, there is no real reason to fight. I donGÇÖt think this is a player base problem, i think itGÇÖs a CCP problem. The only way to revitalise W-space and the pvp in it, would be for CCP to either add content or change the POS system. For me the problem comes from the fact that if you role into someone looking for a fight but the people at home canGÇÖt or donGÇÖt want to fight, the attacker has two option; burn the system to the ground or go home and try again. The latter option being chosen 99% of the time. So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation. CCP IGÇÖm board! Please add/change some wormhole content to make things interesting.-á
MadbaM Hard Knocks Inc. 39	Posted - 2013.07.04 09:06:00 - [11] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation. Clarify what you mean by expansion
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Polarized. 753	Posted - 2013.07.04 09:16:00 - [12] - Quote MadbaM wrote: Rek Seven wrote: So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation. Clarify what you mean by expansion A few on the spot examples: Adding a 7th class of wormhole only accessible through C6 wormholes Change the black hole effect to something people are willing to deal with Add new T3 mods that require WH moon goo Make more out of pos shield structures (POCOS) that required players to defend Add the chance of roaming effects in all wormholes without a static system effect. I agree with what you said. It's not hard to get a fight if you really try, my issue is; what is the reason to fight? CCP IGÇÖm board! Please add/change some wormhole content to make things interesting.-á
Trinkets friend T.R.I.A.D 1040	Posted - 2013.07.04 10:07:00 - [13] - Quote e-peen and e-honour. Find a way to inflict damage on those, and people come and fight you (read: blueblob you). You're obviously not a big enough troll. Indigently pwning indifferently. Some sucker buy me a Naglfar. http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
Sushi Nardieu Bite Me inc Bitten. 131	Posted - 2013.07.04 10:10:00 - [14] - Quote no blues The Guns of Knowledge-á
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1251	Posted - 2013.07.04 11:17:00 - [15] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Ever since I came to C6 wormhole space, iGÇÖve felt like the OP does. After you kill a few caps and have a 30 man armour T3 brawl, you realise that this is pretty much all there is and other than the fun of a good fight, there is no real reason to fight. I donGÇÖt think this is a player base problem, i think itGÇÖs a CCP problem. The only way to revitalise W-space and the pvp in it, would be for CCP to either add content or change the POS system. For me the problem comes from the fact that if you role into someone looking for a fight but the people at home canGÇÖt or donGÇÖt want to fight, the attacker has two option; burn the system to the ground or go home and try again. The latter option being chosen 99% of the time. So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation. 'How long have you been in wspace? Apparently, not long enough. W-space is more populated now than it ever has been. If you want a conflict driver, then I suggest you move out of your C6 and into a system that attaches to HS....yeah I know....it's not as cool as saying "I live in a C6 I'ma bad muthafcka". Noone wants to travel to your part of space. Now, you get a system with a HS and you have the opportunity to ruin whoever's day everytime they need a route to Jita. As a C2 dweller, I can't really help it if you C5/6 guys like to drop carriers on 3 man fleets when one of your T3's get face punched because obviously, noone from lower w-space can bring a cap fight. At that point, the fight is pretty much over....isn't it? What you C5/6 guys want is a fight. What you bring is overpowering fleets with +3 guardians, ewar +10 T3's with caps in reserve. Noone from lower w-space is going to fight you because, in the end, you guys run back to your fortresses of solitude to the safety of your cap fleets. Used to, long ago, we'd have you c6/c5 guys rolling into our C2's and locking down the systems. I don't see that anymore. That's for one of two reasons. One: We've just gotten so good at fighting you guys off or Two: You guys have become major bears. I tend to think it's the latter. You guys want the safety of numbers and frankly, w-space isn't necessarily about numbers. Ultimately, what you C5/6 guys are looking for are large fleet battles so everyone can have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, you live in the least populated areas of w-space.....see the problem? You might consider moving to null or losec if you really want to fight....with caps. Otherwise, swallow your pride and move into lower end space. Down here we get pew almost daily and most of it comes right to us when people are looking for routes to hs. As to a specific conflict driver for w-space, not sure w-space needs the losec/nullsec HTFU!...for the children!
JINGKO BELLS Hexavalent Chromium Industries 13	Posted - 2013.07.04 11:38:00 - [16] - Quote Mr Kidd, excellent as always :-)
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Polarized. 754	Posted - 2013.07.04 11:43:00 - [17] - Quote Mr Kidd wrote: 'How long have you been in wspace? Apparently, not long enough. W-space is more populated now than it ever has been. Almost as long as i've been playing eve. I've lived in a C2, C4 and i'm currently in a C6. Your comment about w-space being more populated these days implies that everything is fine and we don't need more people in wormhole space, which is wrong, especially in c5/c6 space. Mr Kidd wrote: If you want a conflict driver, then I suggest you move out of your C6 and into a system that attaches to HS....yeah I know....it's not as cool as saying "I live in a C6 I'ma bad muthafcka". Noone wants to travel to your part of space. Now, you get a system with a HS and you have the opportunity to ruin whoever's day everytime they need a route to Jita. As a C2 dweller, I can't really help it if you C5/6 guys like to drop carriers on 3 man fleets when one of your T3's get face punched because obviously, noone from lower w-space can bring a cap fight. At that point, the fight is pretty much over....isn't it? What you C5/6 guys want is a fight. What you bring is overpowering fleets with +3 guardians, ewar +10 T3's with caps in reserve. Noone from lower w-space is going to fight you because, in the end, you guys run back to your fortresses of solitude to the safety of your cap fleets. Used to, long ago, we'd have you c6/c5 guys rolling into our C2's and locking down the systems. I don't see that anymore. That's for one of two reasons. One: We've just gotten so good at fighting you guys off or Two: You guys have become major bears. I tend to think it's the latter. You guys want the safety of numbers and frankly, w-space isn't necessarily about numbers. Ultimately, what you C5/6 guys are looking for are large fleet battles so everyone can have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, you live in the least populated areas of w-space.....see the problem? You might consider moving to null or losec if you really want to fight....with caps. Otherwise, swallow your pride and move into lower end space. Down here we get pew almost daily and most of it comes right to us when people are looking for routes to hs. As to a specific conflict driver for w-space, not sure w-space needs the losec/nullsec If you are not trolling and that is what you really think, you are a fool. The answer to C5/C6 people being content with their wormholes is not to move out of wormhole space or move down to a lower class. How does that benefit wormhole space? Wormhole space needs to attract more people who are willing to fight to get top the top and stay there. We don't want people to get to the top and say "so it's just carrier ganks and arranged fight? F*** this i'm moving to a C2 to gank drakes coming in from HS". CCP IGÇÖm board! Please add/change some wormhole content to make things interesting.-á
Nathan Jameson Grumpy Bastards Mass Overload 1392	Posted - 2013.07.04 11:47:00 - [18] - Quote I cannot like Kidd's post enough. Invariably, the people I see complaining about lack of "true" PVP in wormhole space are members of the largest entities that reside in (usually) C6 space. There's nothing wrong with wanting large fleet fights, but there are few other groups in wormhole space that can bring those sorts of fights, and wormhole connections aren't favorable to that kind of combat. http://www.wormholes.info
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Polarized. 754	Posted - 2013.07.04 11:53:00 - [19] - Quote So we are wrong to expect some variety in wormhole space? Shouldn't CCP accommodate entities who like big fleet fights, or should every corp just be 20 men strong ? Maybe CCP should reduce all wormholes mass to C1/C2 size to. CCP IGÇÖm board! Please add/change some wormhole content to make things interesting.-á
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1257	Posted - 2013.07.04 11:55:00 - [20] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Almost as long as i've been playing eve. I've lived in a C2, C4 and i'm currently in a C6. Your comment about w-space being more populated these days implies that everything is fine and we don't need more people in wormhole space, which is wrong, especially in c5/c6 space. I'm pretty sure I did not say that. Lemme check...yep..didn't say that. My comment was about what w-space is....not what it should be. There's nothing wrong with wanting it to be different....more populated....but if you want CCP to "fix" it, then it's on the 5 year plan or more. And I'm not exactly convinced CCP can fix it other than to break it. I live in w-space for what it is, not what I want it to be. And if CCP puts their fat fix it fingers into it, I don't know if I'd like it anymore. Quote: If you are not trolling and that is what you really think, you are a fool. The answer to C5/C6 people being content with their wormholes is not to move out of wormhole space or move down to a lower class. How does that benefit wormhole space? Wormhole space needs to attract more people who are willing to fight to get top the top and stay there. We don't want people to get to the top and say "so it's just carrier ganks and arranged fight? F*** this i'm moving to a C2 to gank drakes coming in from HS". Again, I said nothing about w-space not needing more people....nothing! My comments are based on the realities of w-space. If you want w-space to be more populated then I suggest you split your alliance fortresses systems up and spread out. But, if you want to be the biggest baddest fleet in w-space....accept the reality that only a few others are willing and able to fight with you. Reality..... HTFU!...for the children!
Nathan Jameson Grumpy Bastards Mass Overload 1392	Posted - 2013.07.04 11:57:00 - [21] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Shouldn't CCP accommodate entities who like big fleet fights, or should every corp just be 20 men strong ? Just because you have a favorite play style doesn't mean CCP is required to base their content creation around you. Maybe you need to branch out some. Personally, I am appalled at the lack of new content and tools created for pilots who like to spam scams in Jita local. http://www.wormholes.info
Rek Seven Probe Patrol Polarized. 754	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:05:00 - [22] - Quote Hey i like wormhole space to, hence me living here but many people agree that C6 wormhole pvp is stale/dead for the most part. I'm not even talking about low class wormholes because that works fine IMO. I don't see anything wrong with talking with you guys about how things could be improved. The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space. CCP IGÇÖm board! Please add/change some wormhole content to make things interesting.-á
Winthorp Straya. Scrap Iron Flotilla. 135	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:16:00 - [23] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Hey i like wormhole space to, hence me living here but many people agree that C6 wormhole pvp is stale/dead for the most part. I'm not even talking about low class wormholes because that works fine IMO. I don't see anything wrong with talking with you guys about how things could be improved. The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space. From my time in WH's there was so much PVP in lower class holes but sometimes you just couldn't take all the targets on. When i lived in C5's it was some of the most fun in WH's i have had, there was always PVP ranging from ****** ganks to small gang to sweet fleet fights. From my time though C6 dwellers have never stopped whining, seriously though its true you all allowed the people you knelt down to and obeyed (cough Aharm cough) to evict all the non PVP entities and even those that didnt PVP you every single time you rolled into them even if they did PVP at other times. You all allowed that to happen in your 200 WH backyard and the barren C6 environment is what you reap for that. If i ever go back to WH's C5's is where the fun is at.
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1259	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:16:00 - [24] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Hey i like wormhole space to, hence me living here but many people agree that C6 wormhole pvp is stale/dead for the most part. I'm not even talking about low class wormholes because that works fine IMO. I don't see anything wrong with talking with you guys about how things could be improved. The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space. Look man, I wasn't trolling you. I just know you c5/6 guys like to cram people into your systems like sardines. You've got a lot of isk invested up there and want to protect it. I've lived in the C5 environment. Hated it. Hated spending days looking for something to kill. Hated being one of too many. It's boring. It's political. Seriously, you're going to laugh. I'm in a corp that up until last month was only 3 people + alts. Still, for our size, we get lots of pew. Sometimes, 2 to 1 against us and we still come out on top. Playing Ride of the Valkyrie over TS in route to fights we're sure we're gonna die and yelling "Fck yeah we made it!" when we don't. It's the most fun I've had in w-space. We've got open invitations to larger and higher end w-space alliances. But we don't do it because we're having fun! Consider that. Why do you think TL split and half of them moved to a C2 and the rest of TL in C5 space is still breaking up? HTFU!...for the children!
Nix Anteris Bite Me inc Bitten. 64	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:21:00 - [25] - Quote forum fucked up my post...
TunaKross Bite Me inc Bitten. 42	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:34:00 - [26] - Quote Guys, from the response that this thread has already, this is a valid topic for debate. So to let this thread live please keep the discussion civilized. To many posts are locked by the ISD's these days Also, why don't you post with your main Mr. Kidd ?
Cab Tastic Jazz Associates Azgoths of Kria 16	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:34:00 - [27] - Quote Mr Kidd wrote: Rek Seven wrote: Ever since I came to C6 wormhole space, iGÇÖve felt like the OP does. After you kill a few caps and have a 30 man armour T3 brawl, you realise that this is pretty much all there is and other than the fun of a good fight, there is no real reason to fight. I donGÇÖt think this is a player base problem, i think itGÇÖs a CCP problem. The only way to revitalise W-space and the pvp in it, would be for CCP to either add content or change the POS system. For me the problem comes from the fact that if you role into someone looking for a fight but the people at home canGÇÖt or donGÇÖt want to fight, the attacker has two option; burn the system to the ground or go home and try again. The latter option being chosen 99% of the time. So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation. 'How long have you been in wspace? Apparently, not long enough. W-space is more populated now than it ever has been. If you want a conflict driver, then I suggest you move out of your C6 and into a system that attaches to HS....yeah I know....it's not as cool as saying "I live in a C6 I'ma bad muthafcka". Noone wants to travel to your part of space. Now, you get a system with a HS and you have the opportunity to ruin whoever's day everytime they need a route to Jita. As a C2 dweller, I can't really help it if you C5/6 guys like to drop carriers on 3 man fleets when one of your T3's get face punched because obviously, noone from lower w-space can bring a cap fight. At that point, the fight is pretty much over....isn't it? What you C5/6 guys want is a fight. What you bring is overpowering fleets with +3 guardians, ewar +10 T3's with caps in reserve. Noone from lower w-space is going to fight you because, in the end, you guys run back to your fortresses of solitude to the safety of your cap fleets. Used to, long ago, we'd have you c6/c5 guys rolling into our C2's and locking down the systems. I don't see that anymore. That's for one of two reasons. One: We've just gotten so good at fighting you guys off or Two: You guys have become major bears. I tend to think it's the latter. You guys want the safety of numbers and frankly, w-space isn't necessarily about numbers. Ultimately, what you C5/6 guys are looking for are large fleet battles so everyone can have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, you live in the least populated areas of w-space.....see the problem? You might consider moving to null or losec if you really want to fight....with caps. Otherwise, swallow your pride and move into lower end space. Down here we get pew almost daily and most of it comes right to us when people are looking for routes to hs. As to a specific conflict driver for w-space, not sure w-space needs the losec/nullsec model. Excellent post which mirrors my views
Evangelina Nolen Sama Guild 23	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:36:00 - [28] - Quote Rek Seven wrote: Change the black hole effect to something people are willing to deal with Add new T3 mods that require WH moon goo Add the chance of roaming effects in all wormholes without a static system effect Add the ability to swap clones in W-space using a rorqual These sound wonderful. CCP should add tech 3 BS {balanced not OP like T3 cruisers} to spice things up.
Mr Kidd Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 1261	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:51:00 - [29] - Quote TunaKross wrote: Guys, from the response that this thread has already, this is a valid topic for debate. So to let this thread live please keep the discussion civilized. To many posts are locked by the ISD's these days Also, why don't you post with your main Mr. Kidd ? Because it's the exact same as posting with my alt....since you don't know who he is either. Why do you want me to post with my main? Does it somehow make my points any more valid? Does a logical idea become more logical when a main is involved? HTFU!...for the children!
Joan Greywind Temnava Legion No Holes Barred 38	Posted - 2013.07.04 12:52:00 - [30] - Quote Just a note because I saw it crop up in a bunch of posts. I am not saying that there isn't enough pvp in wh's or the mechanics or quality of the fights are not good. Like it or not, there is a limit of how much you can actually blob in wh space (although lately big fights are becoming more prelevant, I digress as this is not what the discussion is about). But it just seems all the fighting in WH space is done for the fun of it only, and that is in my opinion a broken mechanic. Imagine null space without sov, all of it just being npc space (I don't want sov in wh space, I am just drawing a comparison). There has to be a way where you actually can profit from your pvp if you are relatively better at it that the other wh dwellers, just like null sec. The core of this game is you risk your things to get rewarded with something else. This is completely non existent in WH pvp. For example the trouble of going through evictions is mind boggling. Take huge risks, stop all your activities, find multiple entrances and exits to your hole, haul a bunch of ships in, without the other side knowing and then have hole control for 24/7 for a couple of days at least (if you are lucky). And mostly all you get is blue balls, and your enemies self destructing expensive ships in your face. After the recent patch you can't even get the items from the hangers. In null you have to fight for the right to live in a particular space, in WH you don't, you can stay there forever without pvping. If we just change a small thing it can lead to a whole new level of pvp. If evictions become at least a little bit profitable, we can have more quality pvp than just roaming gangs and staged fights. I know I repeated some ideas in the last paragraph, but i thought it needed some clarifying. I just don't want this topic to devolve about wh pvp problems in general.

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