'Youre not in my fleet' = plenty of a conflict driver

This is why we need moon goo in W-space.

So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation.

Clarify what you mean by expansion

Ever since I came to C6 wormhole space, iGÇÖve felt like the OP does. After you kill a few caps and have a 30 man armour T3 brawl, you realise that this is pretty much all there is and other than the fun of a good fight, there is no real reason to fight.

I donGÇÖt think this is a player base problem, i think itGÇÖs a CCP problem. The only way to revitalise W-space and the pvp in it, would be for CCP to either add content or change the POS system.

For me the problem comes from the fact that if you role into someone looking for a fight but the people at home canGÇÖt or donGÇÖt want to fight, the attacker has two option; burn the system to the ground or go home and try again. The latter option being chosen 99% of the time.

So unless CCP and our CSM start looking at a wormhole expansion/update, there is little we can do about the situation.

'How long have you been in wspace? Apparently, not long enough. W-space is more populated now than it ever has been.

If you want a conflict driver, then I suggest you move out of your C6 and into a system that attaches to HS....yeah I know....it's not as cool as saying "I live in a C6 I'ma bad muthafcka". Noone wants to travel to your part of space. Now, you get a system with a HS and you have the opportunity to ruin whoever's day everytime they need a route to Jita. As a C2 dweller, I can't really help it if you C5/6 guys like to drop carriers on 3 man fleets when one of your T3's get face punched because obviously, noone from lower w-space can bring a cap fight. At that point, the fight is pretty much over....isn't it?

What you C5/6 guys want is a fight. What you bring is overpowering fleets with +3 guardians, ewar +10 T3's with caps in reserve. Noone from lower w-space is going to fight you because, in the end, you guys run back to your fortresses of solitude to the safety of your cap fleets.

Used to, long ago, we'd have you c6/c5 guys rolling into our C2's and locking down the systems. I don't see that anymore. That's for one of two reasons. One: We've just gotten so good at fighting you guys off or Two: You guys have become major bears. I tend to think it's the latter. You guys want the safety of numbers and frankly, w-space isn't necessarily about numbers.

Ultimately, what you C5/6 guys are looking for are large fleet battles so everyone can have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, you live in the least populated areas of w-space.....see the problem? You might consider moving to null or losec if you really want to fight....with caps. Otherwise, swallow your pride and move into lower end space. Down here we get pew almost daily and most of it comes right to us when people are looking for routes to hs.

As to a specific conflict driver for w-space, not sure w-space needs the losec/nullsec

Almost as long as i've been playing eve. I've lived in a C2, C4 and i'm currently in a C6. Your comment about w-space being more populated these days implies that everything is fine and we don't need more people in wormhole space, which is wrong, especially in c5/c6 space.

If you are not trolling and that is what you really think, you are a fool. The answer to C5/C6 people being content with their wormholes is not to move out of wormhole space or move down to a lower class. How does that benefit wormhole space?

Wormhole space needs to attract more people who are willing to fight to get top the top and stay there. We don't want people to get to the top and say "so it's just carrier ganks and arranged fight? F*** this i'm moving to a C2 to gank drakes coming in from HS".

Shouldn't CCP accommodate entities who like big fleet fights, or should every corp just be 20 men strong ?

Hey i like wormhole space to, hence me living here but many people agree that C6 wormhole pvp is stale/dead for the most part. I'm not even talking about low class wormholes because that works fine IMO.

I don't see anything wrong with talking with you guys about how things could be improved. The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space.

Hey i like wormhole space to, hence me living here but many people agree that C6 wormhole pvp is stale/dead for the most part. I'm not even talking about low class wormholes because that works fine IMO.

I don't see anything wrong with talking with you guys about how things could be improved. The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space.

'How long have you been in wspace? Apparently, not long enough. W-space is more populated now than it ever has been.

If you want a conflict driver, then I suggest you move out of your C6 and into a system that attaches to HS....yeah I know....it's not as cool as saying "I live in a C6 I'ma bad muthafcka". Noone wants to travel to your part of space. Now, you get a system with a HS and you have the opportunity to ruin whoever's day everytime they need a route to Jita. As a C2 dweller, I can't really help it if you C5/6 guys like to drop carriers on 3 man fleets when one of your T3's get face punched because obviously, noone from lower w-space can bring a cap fight. At that point, the fight is pretty much over....isn't it?

What you C5/6 guys want is a fight. What you bring is overpowering fleets with +3 guardians, ewar +10 T3's with caps in reserve. Noone from lower w-space is going to fight you because, in the end, you guys run back to your fortresses of solitude to the safety of your cap fleets.

Used to, long ago, we'd have you c6/c5 guys rolling into our C2's and locking down the systems. I don't see that anymore. That's for one of two reasons. One: We've just gotten so good at fighting you guys off or Two: You guys have become major bears. I tend to think it's the latter. You guys want the safety of numbers and frankly, w-space isn't necessarily about numbers.

Ultimately, what you C5/6 guys are looking for are large fleet battles so everyone can have fun. Nothing wrong with that. Problem is, you live in the least populated areas of w-space.....see the problem? You might consider moving to null or losec if you really want to fight....with caps. Otherwise, swallow your pride and move into lower end space. Down here we get pew almost daily and most of it comes right to us when people are looking for routes to hs.

As to a specific conflict driver for w-space, not sure w-space needs the losec/nullsec model.

Change the black hole effect to something people are willing to deal with
Add new T3 mods that require WH moon goo
Add the chance of roaming effects in all wormholes without a static system effect
Add the ability to swap clones in W-space using a rorqual

Guys, from the response that this thread has already, this is a valid topic for debate. So to let this thread live please keep the discussion civilized. To many posts are locked by the ISD's these days


Also, why don't you post with your main Mr. Kidd ?

What allot of people have issue with is evictions of PVP entities.

The more we tell CCP that everything is fine, the more chance there is of us being here 2 years down the line without seeing any improvements and content adding to W-space.

... it just seems all the fighting in WH space is done for the fun of it only, and that is in my opinion a broken mechanic... There has to be a way where you actually can profit from your pvp if you are relatively better at it that the other wh dwellers, just like null sec. The core of this game is you risk your things to get rewarded with something else. This is completely non existent in WH pvp.

QFT

I am sorry but Mr. kidds argument isn't logical. So we should all leave c5-c6 space to go live in c2's, and shoot itty 5's and drakes? I had a lot of good fights for the wh hs exit, but they are definitely not high quality fights, simply because it is easy just to find one later. As I said before twice, I am not saying that there is a lack of pvp, just that all of it is done purely for fun. There are no extra rewards for your better skills and taking extra risk. A carebear in wh space is richer than someone that pvp's.

In null everybody fights to keep their space, they might have renters, but they pay for the alliance to stay there. No one is staying in null without fighting (or someone fighting for him). Null space was just as an example. At the core of it there is very low to zero reward to you taking extra risks in WH, especially for PVP, which in my opinion is a very weak mechanic for a game like EVE.

In game PVP drivers are important, also as I said a simple moon change, got us the biggest war we saw in EVE in years. Are you telling me this isn't better? PVP drivers also break alliances and blues, as everyone should be trying to secure the biggest piece of pie they can get. Now blues, just stay blue because there is no reason not to blue. EVE is about winning not small fights. Don't get me wrong, small fights are fun as ****, but in WH space there is no "winning" because there is no pie for pvping. Yes i ******* love pie. If we can maybe make the ships not destructible in poses pvper's can have some pie (faction ships and t3's are tasty), or some other solutions that maybe smarter people can figure out. So please let's try to address this issue, and not something like small pvp is leet (it is but that is not the issue) and it's the big alliances fault (it is somewhat, but how will it be solved). Adding pvp drivers and incentives (imo) only adds to the experience.

And the "You don't evict people who PVP" bullshit. Well people who actually PVP would *gasp* PVP to defend or die trying, not run around screaming for help from every other wormhole entity. Guess there's a lot less PVPers up here than we thought.

while im on the subject, any corp that gets attacked and calls in the other half of WH space to bail them out is not a PVP corp that i want to have anything to do with.

I am sorry but Mr. kidds argument isn't logical. So we should all leave c5-c6 space to go live in c2's, and shoot itty 5's and drakes? I had a lot of good fights for the wh hs exit, but they are definitely not high quality fights, simply because it is easy just to find one later. As I said before twice, I am not saying that there is a lack of pvp, just that all of it is done purely for fun. There are no extra rewards for your better skills and taking extra risk. A carebear in wh space is richer than someone that pvp's.

In null everybody fights to keep their space, they might have renters, but they pay for the alliance to stay there. No one is staying in null without fighting (or someone fighting for him). Null space was just as an example. At the core of it there is very low to zero reward to you taking extra risks in WH, especially for PVP, which in my opinion is a very weak mechanic for a game like EVE.

In game PVP drivers are important, also as I said a simple moon change, got us the biggest war we saw in EVE in years. Are you telling me this isn't better? PVP drivers also break alliances and blues, as everyone should be trying to secure the biggest piece of pie they can get. Now blues, just stay blue because there is no reason not to blue. EVE is about winning not small fights. Don't get me wrong, small fights are fun as ****, but in WH space there is no "winning" because there is no pie for pvping. Yes i ******* love pie. If we can maybe make the ships not destructible in poses pvper's can have some pie (faction ships and t3's are tasty), or some other solutions that maybe smarter people can figure out. So please let's try to address this issue, and not something like small pvp is leet (it is but that is not the issue) and it's the big alliances fault (it is somewhat, but how will it be solved). Adding pvp drivers and incentives (imo) only adds to the experience.

As for PVP drivers....most people I know in w-space are there to do 2 things.....make isk, get pew. And it's sounding a lot like you are advocating a nullsec model for w-space. Personally, I don't need a pvp driver to pvp. I look for it almost daily. If other people don't want to pew, that's their choice. That's a great thing about w-space.....there's *gasp* choice. If I went to null I'd have no choice but to be a corp member in some alliance or become a renter

All I can say is if you want to play the game with nullsec mechanics......go to nullsec. But you haven't presented one idea in this thread without saying "like nullsec"....if you want w-space to be more like nullsec.....then go to nullsec.

In null if you don't fight you lose your territory +income...

In null sec if you don't pvp you lose your sov...

...all the fighting in WH space is done for the fun of it only, and that is in my opinion a broken mechanic. Imagine null space without sov...

In null you have to fight for the right...

In null everybody fights to keep their space...

...simple moon change, got us the biggest war we saw in EVE in years. Are you telling me this isn't better?

I don't want wh space to be like null, all I am saying

He was clearly using null sec as an example. If you are going to reply, read the posts you are replying to first FFS.

This is why people want you to post with your main.

In w-space, you either give fights or you get evicted. It doesnGÇÖt really matter if you win or lose; just being down for an engagement when one presents itself is usually enough to gain the respect of your neighbors. Most larger PvP groups - Hard Knocks included - take exception when theyGÇÖre denied fights. WeGÇÖre always looking for our next fix, and in the manner of a fiending junkie who doesnGÇÖt know where their next hit is coming from, we can get violent if you keep your ships behind a forcefield, tantalizing us with their unexploded intactness. Fight us or weGÇÖll come back and remove the forcefields. ItGÇÖs a simple rule to follow, and the amount of ISK to be made in the gateless unknown means thereGÇÖs no excuse for being protective of your vessels. ItGÇÖll be fun, we promise.

I guess I just feel that wanting to log in and shoot stuff is satisfying enough. dash in some epic battles, shiny ganks, merc ops, and general goofyness on late night comms and I'm a happy camper. grudges add a nice touch as well.

OP wants conflict driver? Make POS bashing profitable.

No sd within shields
SMA drops ships

Two changes that would make a lot more fights for WH space

You do realize all the defendant has to do is leave a pod in the ff next to the sma and cha's. The instant the tower dies, right click unanchor the mods as fast as you can and you have just guaranteed the other guy gets absolutely zero loot. Park in a brick tanked bs or something and you will likely live long enough to self nuke an entire tower.

Why people seem to forget about this and cry for mechanic changes is beyond me.

Yes people can do this and some will but if you can't sd in shields you can't mitigate your losses somewhat. You only can spite your enemy and if you have to lose everything i think more people would choose to lose everything goin down swinging.

Well you've basically just said you don't want anything to do with all of WH space. Can you name a single well-known entity who has faced eviction and not batphoned? (The only one I can think of is Firebirds, yet for all I know they did in fact quietly reach out for assistance.)

Mechanics Changes: I'm sure that removing the ability to SD ships in a POS and SMA's booting ships would create a conflict driver to support evictions. No argument from me and I think this would probably not hurt anything.

This has probably been discussed before, but I have been lurking on the forums for a while and can't find any good discussions about it.

Currently, other than the reason of good fights, there isn't much motive to actually engage in pvp in WH space. If you run into a active gang or WH and they don't want to PVP, they just wait it out for a day till the connection drops, no biggie. In null if you don't fight you lose your territory +income. Eviction also recently got a shadow nerf with the SMA "working as inteded" bug. And even without that bug, eviction were really not worth the cost because the other corp would just self destruct their assets.

The only major pvp we find in wh space, is either personal vendettas evictions, loggofski traps, and fights that are actually orchestrated by both sides, which really sux as pvp in eve should be non consensual (most of the times at least). I really cringe when I see **** like yea let's fight but no more than 15 ppl and no capitals.

I really don't have that many ideas to fix this problem (if it is a problem anyways). One of them might be just making the self destruct not work inside pos shields might be a good start. That way at least evictions can be somewhat profitable, and maybe that way people have more incentive to actually pvp.

It just seems you have to fish really hard to find serious pvp in wh's these days (killing ventures and drakes don't count).

So please if you disagree with anything, or like to add something go ahead, refraining from you are noob comments and dome fights are cool.

You know what the biggest problem is with PVP in wspace.

EVERYBODY thinks they are the shite in their armor ships.
They brag about how much isk they just killed.
Or they brag about how they just had an awesome fight, and in many cases its just a GANK.
Large amount of "fights" in wspace are just ganks. They have always been ganks from the beginning. But suddenly it was OMG ELITE PVP. COME LOOK AT OUR GENTLEMENTLY ONE SIDED DUELS.


Very few people will just duke it out in shield ships. Heck, just the other day we were just dicking around in like 4 shield ships(being the only 4 people online) on a hole and suddenly Why So serious had to warp a 20 man armour fleet to their hole.

Then we were on a nullsec roam in a Osprey/Scythe fleet and the SUPER CAREBEARS in our static decided to cycle us out. They proceeded to cycle like complete chickenshites so they can carebear. Meanwhile warping in their cowardly armour fleet to chest beat.

Even people in VoC resort to armor ships because when you are agaisnt a blob of overpowered tech 3s, your only choice is to do the same. Tech 3s desperately need nerfing because there is little alternative. The only other way to kill current tech 3 fleets with conventional fleets is to outblob them.

It's just lame, all you do is sit at zero and one side ends up losing their 40billion in pimped ships. The end, no need for strategy. Just keep warping in more ships at zero.


PVP in wspace is dead because all of you are the most risk averse, chest beating scrubs I have ever seen in this game. TEST has more skilled and true PVP pilots in Rifters than every single alliance combined in wspace.

a bit ironic from the team leading the largest failed wormhole eviction in history....

This coming from the entity that would only ever roll their chain to avoid those large armor fights, the countless blue balls VOC gives to the rest of WH space. Irony at its finest Messoroz.

This coming from the entity that would only ever roll their chain to avoid those large armor fights, the countless blue balls VOC gives to the rest of WH space. Irony at its finest Messoroz.

Large armor fights are the most lamest shite in the world. Did my post did not convey that feeling?

We often do not have enough people to even begin to counter some of the ridiculous armor fleets being formed up agaisnt. A majority of the time most of us are all dicking around having fun in different parts of nullsec. But suddenly its our fault for not wanting to PVP agaisnt some ridiculous no skilled blob?

A blob we have to waste a hour of our time forming up and strategizing? Some people are just sick of the BS. Roaming and pewing is so much more fun than stroking ones **** on a wormhole.


And my post attacks everyone. VoC and everyone alike. I couldn't careless.

What about large shield fights? I like those.

What about large shield fights? I like those.

random goon wanders into wormhole subforum *gasps*

Probably PVPs more than all you scrubs.

You guys say you don't care about killboards but then what's the difference between them SDing inside a FF as opposed to them warping out ships 1 by 1 to your waiting blob?

I pvp in wormholes because I want to deprive others of their hard earned isk. I don't care if I kill their ship/pod or force them to self destruct because I close the hole behind them. Why do you?

Wormhole space needs to attract more people who are willing to fight to get to the top and stay there. We don't want people to get to the top and say "so it's just carrier ganks and arranged fight? F*** this i'm moving to a C2 to gank drakes coming in from HS".

if the answer is just for fun, then that is the root of the problem

CCP could rework PI for wormholes; make it more profitable, smaller, but also force players to dump to the Poco every day. Then make it so when you reinforce a POCO it drops its accumulated loot, this would give smaller gangs something to do if enemies pos up; give players incentive to be in space in haulers and what not, which would also help attract roaming gangs.

This would lure people in to WH space by making non cap escalatable systems more valuable, and also give pvpers something to do.

No one wants to deal with your terrible blobby t3 fleets either so what is your point?

Wormhole space needs to attract more people who are willing to fight to get to the top and stay there. We don't want people to get to the top and say "so it's just carrier ganks and arranged fight? F*** this i'm moving to a C2 to gank drakes coming in from HS".

*Please note, this is me getting my feet wet about WH stuff, I have mostly only lurked before*

Seems to me like people are trying to say that it's lonely at the top. Yeah, you have your C5 or C6, and you've killed anyone who ever tried to take it from you, or anyone who came nearby, or well, anyone within range.

And you're surprised that no one goes there anymore?


Yeah, but who turned it into nothing but carrier ganks and pre-arranged fights? What you're asking is for people to be motivated to fight an uphill, almost definitely losing battle against you, in one, maybe two or three systems total. Not happening.

And then someone says "what reason is there to pvp in WHs, except fun and vendettas". I wasn't aware those weren't good reasons to fight? Pretty much all I fight for is fun.

Sure. people fight for profit. But there isn't profit to be had either by trying to dig an establish C5 corp out of their hole.

There's no reason to fight you due to the climate that you have created. This is a player created problem. It reminds me very much of how some of the big nullsec alliances used to complain that there weren't any good fights, and then they'd go slumming into lowsec or highsec looking to cause some damage.

It's lonely at the top. If you want some good fights, go get them! Don't expect someone to try and roll into your territory and dig you out of an entrenched position, and complain when no one wants to fight you.

And finally those with the balls to actually roam lowsec and nullsec instead of complaining about wspace being dead. (Nullsecs are more common than ANY OTHER TYPE OF WORMHOLE IN WSPACE).

nowon is going to grind POCOs for 20m of PI garbage that has a high volume.

What, exactly, does roaming LS/NS have to do with WH PVP?
If I wanted to roam LS/NS, I'd probably live in, oh I don't know, LS or NS...

I have no issue with people roaming NS from WHs, but it has absolutely nothing to do with WH PVP.

(I do agree with your first statement tho.)

The entire premise of Verge of Collapse which people for some reason still do not understand is that we primarily roam NS. It has been extremely effective for the last 3+ years. We don't waste our time on pointless wspace activities unless we are really bored.

which is why ive never considered you a WH corp ;)
each to their own though.

Not everybody is able to sound the horn of nerds and have 20 proteuses in a hour, let alone a day.

Things are the way they are simply because the CCP designed wormhole mechanics allow it.

You can cry all you want about how the big alliances are bad because they blob, blue up for pos bashes or only fly T3 but at the end of the day, all your moaning does nothing to change the course of events. Everyone here is operating within the rules created by CCP and if you want REAL change, they are the only people that can do it.

So then why are you all QQ'ing about people blue balling you, laughing as you nerd rage out, and then going and doing whatever it was they wanted to do anyway? I mean, its also completely within the rules of the game.
You idiots are the ones running around with extra terrible rules that you want to impose on people.

WHs offer ever changing access to all parts of LS/NS. You never appear in the same location. It is the absolute paradise for finding PVP without being confined to some lame NPC station system or sov.

The entire premise of Verge of Collapse which people for some reason still do not understand is that we primarily roam NS. (OMG VOC WONT FIGHT OUR ARMOUR BLOB, WAH WAH). It has been extremely effective for the last 3+ years. We don't waste our time on pointless wspace activities unless we are really bored.

Why you're caring about WH PvP is beyond me considering it's seemingly not even an interest to you? I do wholeheartedly agree with you about flying other shitt, though. I'd quite like to fly non-T3 shitt, if I'm being honest.

4. I honestly dont see what the problem is with hot and sweaty no strings attached fleet battles. Is there really a downside if polarized roles into SYJ and they have a 40-50 vs 40-50 man battle with 2-3 caps on each side? Or is this not elite enough for you? Does elite pvp always have to include the total annihilation of your enemy? Or does it simply have to do with that feeling you get when you burn someone's holes down. Its like being a kid on the beach and kicking down sand castles. We worked hard on those, do you really need to kick them down?

[quote=Rengas][quote=Jack Miton]

the people siding with to OP here seem to want ISK rewards for PVPing in WHs.
WHY?
running a site or 2 a week is going to take you half an hour at most and will more than cover your PVP. hell, take a couple hours a week and run 8 sites if you lose a lot of crap.
it also doesnt make you a carebear...

there is no reason at all for PVP to be profitable in high end WHs where isk is never a factor.
(it also often IS profitable, given the level of bling ships in WHs tend to have.)

TL;DR If i have to stop doing PVE i have to be paid to PVP, why should i bother PVPing when i can earn more farming sites

Everyone here is operating within the rules created by CCP and if you want REAL change, they are the only people that can do it.

Get it straight, your issue is with natural human behavior, where as my issue is that CCP do little to curb our behavior through game mechanics.

Polarized (or any other alliance) aren't just going to strategically weaken them selves by splitting their forces just because you don't like the way we play, so get that stupid idea out of your heads.

IIn game PVP drivers are important, also as I said a simple moon change, got us the biggest war we saw in EVE in years. .

If you really want to get some massive pvp then I suggest a major battle royal between every major WH entity in existance. We find some vanilla c5-c5 (c5s over c6s because almost every single c6 is taken there are tons of c5s available) and we set up as neutral ground. For like a month straight we do not kill anyone in said hole... at all. Then when we all have our tech 3s and capitals. (Yes tech 3s and capital because tier 3s are the ***** way out.) WHen the time comes, someone lights a cyno at a safe and we all just warp there and fight. No one teams up with anyone. We all just have the largest battle royal in eve history, let alone WH history. Once it is all said and done, the smoke clears, the 2-3 people still alive warp off, we all go back to our homes and we run the sites that bob will have given us as we would have given unto him greatly.

The fact that I and many other individuals from big alliances are here asking for CCP to add reasons for us to fight each other proves you wrong.

no, it actually proves us absolutely correct.
it shows that you can see the issue, admit it's there, know youre part of the issue, and yet, do nothing about it.
it's the worst kind of hypocrisy.


^QFT

no, it actually proves us absolutely correct.
it shows that you can see the issue, admit it's there, know youre part of the issue, and yet, do nothing about it.
it's the worst kind of hypocrisy.

The second point that need to be made is the all or nothingness of invasions in WH.

Either the inhabitants fights. Ok, we don't invade, yeay, arranged pvp.
Or, they don't and we have a choice:
a) commit full fleet for kicking them out.
b) move on.

There is nothing in between. We can't "raid" the WH or anything similar. Either we let them go or we sentence them to death... completely.. not in a physical way but in the only way that matters: isk and time.

Yep, the C5/6 guys are telling us what they want w-space to be more like....null....the other 95% of us are telling you what it is....not null....not supportive of big alliances....not supportive of huge fleet fight....but the c5/6 guys just won't accept it.

Given CCP stance that w-space should be nomadic....which ultimately is complete BS IMO, I doubt you C5/6 guys are going to get anything resembling what you want....but you might just fck it up for everyone else.

It's like you have no idea whats going on, but you have this posting addiction that forces you to come up with random things to say.

one group taking a stand and not batphoning or blobbing does nothing to change the social dynamic all they are doing is weakening themselves if they want to be the strongest entity in WH space.

.. insert spew of random shit ..

Thanks for proving my point.

Xiamar, you talk as if every member of every big alliance is involved and okay with the idea of wormhole coalition. The fact that I and many other individuals from big alliances are here asking for CCP to add reasons for us to fight each other proves you wrong.

I'm not aware of any non invasion pacts but if you have evidence, please share it for all the see and discuss.

As i said, everything you said is irrelevant because one group taking a stand and not batphoning or blobbing does nothing to change the social dynamic all they are doing is weakening themselves if they want to be the strongest entity in WH space.

This is not a discussion as to whether big alliances are bad, it's a discussion as we whether those alliances need more reasons to fight each other so that the blue relationship breaks down.

I'm afraid, Joan, that your demand for conflict drivers might be idealistic. The people who like PVP are already PVP'ing. The primary factor in the lack of PVP in w-space, is that there are too many carebears (logical, with the high profit and all).

Solution:

Either reduce the number of systems (or make it so that connections are more cluster-oriented) or make logistics easier to promote w-space to nullsec and lowsec pvp'ers.

When I look at numbers that indicate my 6 person corp is pewing a lot more than a big alliance with over 200 members....wtf would I want to join a big alliance?

This is pure comedy gold coming from npc alt... top shelf bro

If you want an incentive to fight:

::: Sleeper System Purge :::
A type of incursion for the duration of a week, with a week of 'loading' to make w-space entities aware of the impending system status. Only 1 of these around at any given time.

• Added new type of anomalies for the duration and until they've been cleared.
• Escalated anomalies will present sleeper capital ships on top of the regular stuff. Lots of blue stuff which will attract both PVE and PVP entities.
• The system will have a big increase of the chance of an incoming hole popping up, making sure that a good portion of w-space has access to it and to make wormhole control very difficult, if not impossible.
• The system gets 7 statics (6 different class systems and null)

It's balanced risk vs reward, it's bound to be good pvp and pve and it should promote larger fights.

What do you think? This won't make all of W-space into null while still presenting a good incentive.

If you want an incentive to fight:

::: Sleeper System Purge :::
A type of incursion for the duration of a week, with a week of 'loading' to make w-space entities aware of the impending system status. Only 1 of these around at any given time.

• Added new type of anomalies for the duration until they've been cleared (can be cleared after the event too, as a reward for the w-system holder).
• Escalated anomalies will present sleeper capital ships on top of the regular stuff. Lots of blue stuff which will attract both PVE and PVP entities.
• The system will have a big increase of the chance of an incoming hole popping up, making sure that a good portion of w-space has access to it and to make wormhole control very difficult, if not impossible.
• The system gets 7 statics (6 different class systems and null)

It's balanced risk vs reward, it's bound to be good pvp and pve and it should promote larger fights.

What do you think? This won't make all of W-space into null while still presenting a good incentive to keep rolling for pew or pve (= more active fleets to fight).

I hate to do this really, calling out someone like this, but mr kidd your arguments are complete trash, you keep referring how I want wh space to be like null, where I have said multiple that I only used as an example of conflict drivers. Stop attacking me personally and tackle the argument at hand. I love the no local and I love mass limits, I love that it is close to impossible to build an alliance with unlimited number of pilots, I love it that you have to scan to find routes and chains, I love everything about wh pvp, really mechanics wise it is my favorite thing to do. So stop using it as a invisible crutch to your "stupid" arguments (I am sorry to resort to such namings, I really don't like it, but it is warranted and you are is just spewing random crap that is derailing the topic).

In my humble opinion, null has 1 thing better than us and that is in game conflict drivers, we simple have none (fun and revenge are out of game drivers, and in my opinion are not enough), so instead of calling any large alliance scrubs please prove me wrong on this point, show me where we have conflict drivers, and if there isn't any tell me why you don't want any.

And yes maybe I am being idealistic, but what is wrong with that, more in game conflict drivers are just good gaming design. If you disagree or agree or have any suggestions please go ahead and discuss, just please don't derail the topic.

Yes I know yet again I have to repeat ideas I posted before, I am sorry for this, but people seem to be repeating the same unrelated arguments that I have tried to tackle.

Even If I say so myself, discussing things like this is always good, especially for such an important topic.

Sounds okay and the opportunity to earn more isk would probably encourage more people to come to wormhole space but those people would probably just be coming for moar isk! No?

A couple friends and i were talking about a similar concept but it involved adding a new class of wormhole.

C7 wormhole features:
* more mass than C6 wormholes (maybe double)
* no moons (i.e. no pos)
* multiple statics (2-4)
* capital speepers
* sleepers that appear on wormholes and attack fleets
* random system effects (no one fit can be dominant)

Basically this would be space for nomad fleets and would create king of the hill gameplay.

I initially had the same idea, but then I figured something dynamic and clustered would be better, to promote the king of the hill gameplay we'd like to see. Even better for nomad fleets, since the pew wouldn't be tethered to just a few systems, but to all of them randomly. So an incursion-style event seems better in my opinion. Also, I'd rather go with more holes than mass manipulation, as that would make it easier to calculate.

To iterate on my previous post:

Sleeper system purge
- fits in with lore, sleeper AI wants to get the infection (us capsuleers) out by sending in previously dormant cap sleepers
- system effects will be the native ones, so it would force w-entities to skill up for both shield, armor and sig/speed doctrines, if they want to engage in all the different systems.
- half a dozen statics (not necessarily all of them) & a higher chance of incoming holes
- addition of a new type of anomaly with capital sleepers in them (for added value)

If people come for the ISK making, the PVP guys can jump them or they can try and defend their Pot o' Gold.
If people come for pew, they'll find it, as the system will connect to a LOT of other systems.

This is why we need moon goo in W-space.

Don't form mega WH PvP alliances and form a bunch of smaller pvp corps. Is it surprising that 25 man corps don't want to fight 200 man corps or 500 man alliances?

I disagree, Messoroz. And don't belittle my 'pvp guys' phrasing. Not everyone is in a corp and not everyone is worthy of being called an 'entity'.

Also, I thought VOC didn't focus on w-space anymore? So, what's the deal?

I disagree, Messoroz. And don't belittle my 'pvp guys' phrasing. Not everyone is in a corp and not everyone is worthy of being called an 'entity'.

Anyway, the proposed w-incursions would allow multiple corporations and alliances to fight in the same system, as it would have plenty of connections (more than enough statics and incoming holes to use). It wouldn't just be for blobby alliances, as wormhole control would be highly difficult. The high numbers in local, plenty of connections and the king-of-the-hill type gameplay would allow for smaller pvp corps and alliances to use guerrilla warfare against the blobby alliances, effectively forcing them to either split fleets or try new tactics. Imagine a fight between two large w-alliances and two or three small corps jumping in to opportunistically shoot them both mid-fight.

Also, I thought VOC didn't focus on w-space anymore? So, what's the deal?

I have to laugh at some of the comments on here. I wish some of you would step back and look at what you are posting. It really is pretty bad.

I have to laugh at some of the comments on here. I wish some of you would step back and look at what you are posting. It really is pretty bad.

In before you get randomly accused of wanting wormholes to be like nullsec.

Verge of Collapse might be getting a little heavy on the rhetoric, but the one thing they are saying is this: "when we can't fight (because it's stupid to) we go and do something else in the game. And we have fun." That's not a half bad goal imo.

Svo.

maybe dumb idea... static nullsec wh in all c5/6 wh in addition to the current static wh
this is a quick thought without thinking it over seriously...

let the comments begin :D

or maybe a module of somekind to create a random outgoing wh to k-space (no HS of course)

I quite like the idea of some sort of CTF mechanic. Something you can obtain and take back to your system if the current owners do not defend it. It must be beneficial to own it in some way, desirable to have, but must give the defending party a chance to prevent an aggressor stealing it in a short space of time.

It's called moon goo.

Not really.

I am 100% for additional conflict drivers in WH. I am 100% against CCP destroying the best part of EVE. I don't know and don't care about null sex. Any other additional disclaimers will be added as needed.


Here are some of the funny / lacking in intelligence topics:

1) do not form big alliance. They are bad: how do we determine too big?

2) bringing too many people to a PVP opportunity: how do we know you don't have more people? How do we determine who from our side doesn't get to fight? Why exactly should we weaken ourselves to make sure you can win?

3) Bat phoning is bad: yes, I would rather lose everything just so you can win?

4) Too many blues: Can you please list who is blue to who so we can all know what's going on? CCP should outlaw bluing?

5) Players are 100% to blame for the lack of PVP in C5/C6: Yes because it is easy to get enough caps into the other guys WH to combat his 10+ caps (see below)

6) Your defenses are too strong. No wonder no one attacks you: Yes, it is a good idea to have hundreds of billions in possessions in a POS with no defenses.


Too many of you only see things from your own perspective. You refuse to ever try to look at it from the other side of the gun. Have some of you even looked at what your wrote? Do really want to represent yourself with those words, sentences and / or ideas?

I quite like the idea of some sort of CTF mechanic. Something you can obtain and take back to your system if the current owners do not defend it. It must be beneficial to own it in some way, desirable to have, but must give the defending party a chance to prevent an aggressor stealing it in a short space of time.

Like a trophy? That could work, and maybe it could have some benefit on the system it is anchored in. We could use the "black monolith" that you seen in some sites

I think it would be good if CCP added moon goo to wormholes but not goo for the T2 line, obviously.

CCP could make it so in requires new harvester that can't be anchored at the pos, making them attackable by fleets of all sizes. At the end of a 4 hour RF time or successful hack, this structure could spew out moon goo in cans like the new exploration sites

If you don't want people coming in to your system bashing the structure to try and get a fight out of you, don't build one.

You're acting like the only valid fixes are "CCP please add/remove stuff."


But let's just ignore all those people that say that mechanics DON'T have to change to fix any perceived problems. Carry on with "CCP please fix what some feel is not broken, but I feel is broken, so it must be broken." Also, there are plenty of good posts past page 2.


If people REALLY want to get into the discussion, read the first 9 pages.

There already is a mechanic for generating content. It's called not flying the same boring garbage. It is backed up by the secondary mechanic which is not being a blobby chode. Some of you in c5/c6 space are moaning about no pew. Others who shall remain nameless have so much they have to prioritize which ones to go after and what to let slide for another day.

The loot dropping and sma nonsense will not create content because, as I have already mentioned yet you failed to read. There is in place a mechanic that will 100% guarantee you no loot which is the instant unanchoring of modules the instant the tower dies.

So your argument that it will generate content by giving people loot is moot. Because people can already guarantee you no loot using normal functioning mechanics. Unless you then want to moan that you shouldn't be able to unanchor modules but that would make you look just blatantly stupid.

Tl;Dr for the people who are not boring, blobby, uber predictable a-holes, wormhole pvp is not only fine. But it's rocking right now.

tl;dr We just want to F1 and win win win win

Wow... You are a... 'winner'? You don't have a clue but that's ok. Just keep thinking that small.

.... words that I took out because I hit the word limiter.

PVP drivers are in game mechanics that incetivises PVP

We in the c5/c6 regions have, in my opinion the most powerful driver of all. The ability to swiftly travel around any part of the game without complicated logistics, titans, sov or any of that static nonsense. We could, if we so chose, find pvp in every part of the game in a single day. How much more power and enabling do you need to create content?

We in the c5/c6 regions have, in my opinion the most powerful driver of all. The ability to swiftly travel around any part of the game without complicated logistics, titans, sov or any of that static nonsense. We could, if we so chose, find pvp in every part of the game in a single day. How much more power and enabling do you need to create content?.

This is working as intended. This is your conflict driver, guys. If you don't believe me, ask the nullsec community about how much they like wormholers!

Eh, the tl;dr was of what you posted.

You at least seemed to agree that other than fun

No, that is what you think. You need to stop crying because people won't play EVE the way you want. Just get agreements for 5v5 at the sun and let the rest of us play.

Most of these arguments are based on the current mechanics for pos's.

You could do this you could do that to deny the attackers any sense of victory or iskies.

Things change,mechanics change. Hell just fixing the sma bug would throw the cat amongst the pigeons.

Do not just base your idea's and views on how W space, pos mechanics are at this precise moment in time because game play could be totally different in W space this time next year and this thread is trying to reach out to CCP and try to mold it in a way that current wormhole dwellers would like to see it go.

The utter arrogance of some of the bigger corporations/alliances in this thread makes me smile, just because you are associated with more pilots in your system does not make you any more right than us small fry and some of you would do well to remember that and not discount ideas suggestions from us. Some of us actually chose to be in lower class wormholes and roam in smaller groups because we find that style of game play more appealing.

That is cool and I totally respect that, I am asking for any change in pvp mechanics, and the things we are asking for (the people that want more pvp drivers), doesn't change or affect your playstyle one bit, other than of course giving you more opportunities and incentives for pvp, which is all what we are arguing for, I really don't see how that can be a bad thing.

...stuff

You at least seemed to agree that other than fun, there is no other real driver to pvp in wh space, which is totally fine, that is why I do it and that is why I play EVE. But I also believe that adding in game mechanisms to reward you for the extra risk you take in some forms of pvp, will create more pvp opportunities for everyone. I also believe if you live in wh space, you should pay a price to live here, mainly defending it against aggressors.

It just seems you have to fish really hard to find serious pvp in wh's these days (killing ventures and drakes don't count).

This thread is hilarious.

It definitely went places didnt it :P
anyone with any clue seems to have stopped posting 5-6 pages ago and went to get the popcorn.

frankly the ones surprising me the most are NOHO being morons. I would have expected better :(
polarized having no clue im never surprised by ;)

Answer me this, how is adding any pvp drivers, which many people in wh space actually advocate, going to affect you badly in any way? And please don't tell me it is going to take a lot of CCP's time, let them decide that, as a player how is this affecting you?

Who other than me posted from noho, these are my observations, I am new in noho and this is completely unrelated to them.

So I take it Jack you don't like the idea of more pvp drivers, if why not please tell us why.

So I take it Jack you don't like the idea of more pvp drivers, if why not please tell us why.

no what i said at all actually.

thing is, WHs have pvp drivers. also, the pvp itself is the driver if youre doing it right. the entire argument is not valid.
issue with WHs is that the people there have grown to the point of no distinction between them and it's a massive stalemate that's made worse by most of them stepping in to prevent anyone from breaking the stalemate.

it makes no difference what CCP put into whs, moon goo, better WHs, better PI, whatever. if the mentality doesnt change the pvp wont either.
i couldnt care less if ccp add more drivers to WH space, would be great. still wouldnt change the state of wh pvp.
WH dwellers like to mock NS for their blues and huge blobs and massive alliances while in reality, WHs are no longer any different.

But jack even null that didn't see a decent war in years, things changed completely, blues switched sides and we have a big ass war over a small change. Maybe that is what we need. Drivers dont have to be goo, it was just suggested, if you have other ideas or suggestions go ahead and post them. Btw your tutorial on how to do sites (that was amazing) was a significant pvp driver in and by itself. That is the kind of thing I am talking about. Yes yours was player created, but I still think there is no harm and only benefit out of CCP putting in some pvp drivers other than just "it's fun". We really do lack them in wh space (saying we lack pvp drivers doesn't mean there is a lack of pvp)

Decent war in years?

The fudge?

Are you blind?

There was PL vs AAA.

There was CFC vs NCDOT in the North after the Rzr and morsus fell.

There was the great drone wars that even to this day continue.

Tons more conflicts that I can't even list.

If your idea of a "decent" war is 3000 man fights. I don't think you should be in wspace.


All I'm starting to see is you want reasons to do 200 man blobs in wspace.