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Avon
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Posted - 2005.12.18 09:35:00 -
[121]
Back to basics.
Either
a can is trash as originally intended, and flagging should be scrapped
or
a can is the property of the owner, and can be defended with lethal force (as it is now)
Taking from a can is right or wrong, no shades of grey, and that is how it should be reflected in the game mechanics.
Warnings are in place, just like they are with low-sec space. It is up to the individual to take some responsibility for their own actions.
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.12.18 09:38:00 -
[122]
they are now owned unsecured cans u steal from it u take the penalty current system works fine as is no changes needed
CCP please restore the recruitment channel |
fl0pski
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Posted - 2005.12.18 09:42:00 -
[123]
noobships are free anyway.
plus they get to learn a very valuable lesson.
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Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2005.12.18 09:53:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 18/12/2005 09:54:51
 Originally by: sonofollo
they are now owned unsecured cans u steal from it u take the penalty current system works fine as is no changes needed
Well, my intention was, that you are free to make the decisions:
'Hey, this is my can. If you touch it I'm gonna kill you !' (in that case I'd mark my cans)
or
'I gon't want that loot can. It's only trash for me. Who ever wants it may take it or just let it float in space. I don't care.'
(so I wouldn't mark it as mine and it would stay the standard free-for-all jetcan)
I suggested it only, because some newbies said that they are flying around and collecting cans that nobody wants without the intention to 'steal' something.
Finally everyone will adapt, no matter how the system is. For me it's pointless anyway.
I thought about trying to grief some macro miners with my Manticore, but lack the time to try it out.
I must admit that I also thought about killing other people a bit in empire, who don't understand the system yet, but I didn't do it because I usually don't pick on poor carebears without a reason just to get something to shoot. I'm not fully on the dark side yet. Hehe. 
___________
'Only ships can be assembled, this is a Frigate.' |
Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.18 09:55:00 -
[125]
I took a macro miner's can after all his ships left the belt, and I didn't get the warning popup or the aggression timer. is this a change to only apply the flag if the owner is present (to allow abandoned loot cans), or is it just a bug?
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.12.18 09:55:00 -
[126]
read the dev blog it explains it quite clearly (useful tool) but really a non event.
CCP please restore the recruitment channel |
Siren Shiva
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Posted - 2005.12.18 09:59:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Mimio
Originally by: Silberhaar
A simple solution is to put a 15 min timer on all jettisoned and loot cans. When the timer runs out then the conti can be looted by everyone with no flagging. Don't forget that secure containers are permanently protected. This will helps everyone!
This idea(btw, from Lineage) is too simple, too effective and too brilliant for CCP
But no! The careminers would complain that they still are not protected from ore thieves while jetcan mining. I doubt they'd want to make a new can every 15 minutes.
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.18 10:29:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Siren Shiva
Originally by: Mimio
Originally by: Silberhaar
A simple solution is to put a 15 min timer on all jettisoned and loot cans. When the timer runs out then the conti can be looted by everyone with no flagging. Don't forget that secure containers are permanently protected. This will helps everyone!
This idea(btw, from Lineage) is too simple, too effective and too brilliant for CCP
But no! The careminers would complain that they still are not protected from ore thieves while jetcan mining. I doubt they'd want to make a new can every 15 minutes.
the macro miners would do it, and then there would be no way to kill them.
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DarkStar251
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Posted - 2005.12.18 12:02:00 -
[129]
People saying this is greifing are not thinking it through.
EVE is a game where generally if its possible to do you are allowed to do it.
You can use social engineering to work your way into a corp and steal all its assets. You CAN kill someone ANYWHERE, you just have to deal with the consequenses.
The Carebears here moaned that they wanted this change (which the rest of us tried to tell them was a STUPID idea) but mow its in they complain about it. They are whining against themselves ffs.
There shouldnt be rules (unwritten or otherwise) about what you can do but shouldnt do or its an exploit.
Saying 'we put in this new flagging system, but if you trick someone into taking stuff to get flagged then we will ban you' is stupid.
a) Using the flagging system to kill Macrominers means a ban.
b) You can steal from anyone, then when they blow you up, report them (say they told you you could have it) and they get banned.
There are 2 options here, as Avon has rightly said before me.
a) Jetisoning is for stuff you want to give away/no longer want, and flagging should be COMPLETELY removed.
b) Jetisoning is to make mining easier, flagging is right, newbs will die, as they are stealing.
Wanting even MORE randomly complex game mechanics added (because newbs dont have enough to learn) only makes the situation MORE 'exploitable'
(\_/)
(O.o)
(> <) |
Time Killer
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Posted - 2005.12.18 12:09:00 -
[130]
Trapping and ganking 2 hour old n00bs 4tl. Lame. |
Deka Ekato
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Posted - 2005.12.18 12:12:00 -
[131]
Ok, i agree that people who can't read should be punished. All I would like to see being stopped is the event in which a pirate dumps a can, with the name of "Free Stuff", then hangs around for a careless player to pick it up and then blowing the noob thief to kingdom come.
That's what was occuring in a 1.0 starter zone. It is this practice that I would like to see stopped.
Yes, the Eve universe is a dog eat dog kind, and should remain so, afterall it is a game of strategy, but the above practice is so dam low.
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Fooball
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Posted - 2005.12.18 12:27:00 -
[132]
It's all valid tactics. And damned fun  And educates the newbies.
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.18 12:43:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Deka Ekato
That's what was occuring in a 1.0 starter zone. It is this practice that I would like to see stopped.
Yes, the Eve universe is a dog eat dog kind, and should remain so, afterall it is a game of strategy, but the above practice is so dam low.
so is ganking newb ships who autopilot through lowsec, but people still do it.
after they die to something the first time, they learn not to do it any more.
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Mabochu
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Posted - 2005.12.18 12:55:00 -
[134]
It simply amazes me how $%^&ing stupid people can be. If you play this game it's clear that you can read & write to some degree, warnings in the game don't use big long complected explanations they are plan and simple. So that being true why o $%^#ing why do people ***** and whine when they get the ass handed to them by gankers that manage to trick them??? the simple reason is most MMO's or even single player games require no thought in to the actions you perform. People b!%^*ed and whined about ore\loot thieves so a method was put in place to counter it (needless to say that there was already a method around ore thieves secure cans...  )
Now i may have only been playing Eve for a little over a month, and the reason I decided to stay is that it hasn't been tainted as much by the "I want my I-Win button generation" and that there was a real death penalty, also the fact that nothing was entirely safe. The next thing that the whiners will want is a full insurance policy that covers every thing you have on your ship + the implants in your head if you get poded. (sounds much to like the graveyard system that was put in to EQ to get people to go dungeon crawling again and ruined the element of risk in that game) What I'm basically trying to say is if you make the game safer you DO NOT enhance the game play you ruin it. Now this thing with the flagging my not seem like a big thing but it is a step in the wrong direction leave it as is or remove it altogether don't try to change it.
If you want simple go play WoW or hell EQ2 is now almost as lame..err..Simple but $%^&ing quit trying push this game in to a dumbed down version as it's one of the very few that have real consequences for actions/inactions.
You are given options what path you want to take in this game ignore the warnings at you own cost.
A little bit of common sense goes a long way it's a pity that very few people seem to have it these days which is why we have the scum of the earth litigation lawyers and people suing cause they burnt there tongue on a cup of coffee so now you can only luke warm - cold $%^*ing coffee no one wants to take responsibility for there actions/inactions...
"Don't grab the rose if you can't handle the thorns"
/Rant off
P.S flame away no one cares  |
Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.18 13:09:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Mabochu
People b!%^*ed and whined about ore\loot thieves so a method was put in place to counter it (needless to say that there was already a method around ore thieves secure cans... )
except you couldn't use them in 0.8+, they're relatively expensive, you have to deploy them 5km apart, and you need four of them to hold one hauler of ore.
Quote:
If you want simple go play WoW or hell EQ2 is now almost as lame..err..Simple but $%^&ing quit trying push this game in to a dumbed down version as it's one of the very few that have real consequences for actions/inactions.
how is this dumbed down? smart players can use it to kill ore thieves, macro hunters can use it to kill macro miners. dumbed down would be completely removing the ability to mess with other people's jetcans, which would make the macro miners untouchable.
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Mabochu
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Posted - 2005.12.18 13:29:00 -
[136]
Forgive me if I'm wrong but there isn't much worth mining in 0.8+ systems nice to get your toes wet and decide if you want to keep mining or run mission/hunt rats for ISK but hardly an ideal place to setup a mid sized mining operation isn't it?
Never said that the current implementation of the flagging was dumbed down but I did imply that it was the step in the wrong direction and that if they changed it to be fool proof it would be a very large step in the wrong direction, as it stands now it can be used to benefit/protect or to lay traps (Which i don't fully condone but if people are that ignorant ignore the warning well what can ya say other than to say that they deserve it?)
But what would i know as I've said I've only been playing for a little over a month. I like most of what i have seen so far of Eve guess I just don't what to see it fall in to the same hole as many other MMO's have and cater for the "I-Win gen" aka PS2/Xbox gen etc where there is always a safety net there to pick you up if you fall with little to no risk.
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.18 13:45:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Mabochu
Forgive me if I'm wrong but there isn't much worth mining in 0.8+ systems nice to get your toes wet and decide if you want to keep mining or run mission/hunt rats for ISK but hardly an ideal place to setup a mid sized mining operation isn't it?
look at the macro miners, there are heaps of them in 0.9-1.0 because there's no npcs. the only other miners here are newbs and afk industrials, and they're usually outnumbered by the macro miners.
Quote:
But what would i know as I've said I've only been playing for a little over a month. I like most of what i have seen so far of Eve guess I just don't what to see it fall in to the same hole as many other MMO's have and cater for the "I-Win gen" aka PS2/Xbox gen etc where there is always a safety net there to pick you up if you fall with little to no risk.
EVE won't go in that direction. a lot of people wanted a way to fight ore thieves and mission loot thieves, and now they have it, carefully balanced to leave a way for the thieves to have their own fun with it.
total carebear mechanics with no loopholes would kill EVE like Trammel killed UO.
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Mabochu
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Posted - 2005.12.18 14:18:00 -
[138]
Yes it would, and i surly hope that it never takes that path, and as i said before they should leave it the way it is now or remove it entirely. I'm looking forward to playing this game a long time but with all these BS posts about how they need to change this and that to make it safer/easier gets me a little edgy , because it reminds me so very much about how EQ went down hill with the release of Shadows of Lucin. Which first introduced free fast limited travel and got blown out to mass free fast travel with PoP and other things that detracted from that game. (The only game I can compare of how things went from good to bad is EQ as I stuck with it for about 6Years and saw many, many changes and towards the end most of them were not for the good of the game.)
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Ander
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Posted - 2005.12.18 14:35:00 -
[139]
Dude...
This kind of tactic was common in Ultima Online.
People would have wars between guilds or kill eachother intra guild.
It'd leave a corpse behind on the ground. When guildmembers looted eachother it would display on everyones screen in the viscinity, as well as "stealing" from the corpse using a skill.
Some newbies would always go try and join the looting of the corpse, but... as it was in UO this would render them criminal within towns and get the attention of the equivilent of concordoken.
I'm seeing EVE take the same path as UO used to be. Can flagging is one step.
The negative aspect about this is the easy of grief. Even though it's pretty fun ^^
It'd be sad if EVE followed the same path as UO even further. "100% battle supression in a safe world"
Well... what I wish for is for EVE to stay as a "free" world in which you can play as you like.
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.18 14:35:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Jennai on 18/12/2005 14:39:10
everyone whines about this and that but CCP seems to ignore it unless they can implement it in a way that benefits both carebears and pirates.
last patch had a large increase in travel time with the highway removal and everyone whined about that, but playerbase has grown by like 30% since then.
all the other MMOs cater to carebears with their safe zones and weak death penalty and teleports; CCP recognizes the role of pvp, pirates, and long travel times in creating a large, immersive game universe.
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Tilde Ampersand
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Posted - 2005.12.18 14:38:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Niki Silver
Like all of the above posters have already stated - There is an obvious warning requiring player acknowledgment before they become flagged. If someone is that stupid, they deserve to be killed. I think it is hillarious that people are actually that stupid, and I fully support those who are punishing them for it.
Scene: Joe, a stupid griefer type that loves nothing better than to cause everyone around him as much grief as possible. He doesn't have the gonads to go out in the real world and PvP against REAL players, so he sits in 1.0 and, pre-RMR, steals their ore, loot and whatever.
Now, with the new can****ging, he doesnt need anything but a well equipped Kestral and a tier 2 skillbook to grief anybody.
Joe > Here, take it, i have 3
N00b > I dunno, man, I don't wanna be a thief
Joe > It's alright, I'm not gonna pod you, I'm just being nice
convo goes on for a couple minutes and Joe convinces the n00b he's a carebear... The n00b takes the bait and Joe pods em, possibly even blows the pod.
THAT it an exploit of a game feature and really does need to be addressed. Anyone against a means to flag a can as truely FREE has got to be a 'Joe'. Jetting a can in space for a fast, free trade is ALWAYS faster and easier than 'Docking request accepted. Approaching starbase' in a n00b ship...
~& Tilde Ampersand &~
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Jennai
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Posted - 2005.12.18 14:47:00 -
[142]
Edited by: Jennai on 18/12/2005 14:48:10
then newb complains in local and someone tells them to never, ever loot someone else's cans unless they're in your gang, no matter what they tell you.
also the can flag only lets you kill ships, not pods. you can kill their ship again if they come back within 15 minutes, but you can never get the pod.
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Avon
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Posted - 2005.12.18 15:56:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Tilde Ampersand
THAT it an exploit of a game feature and really does need to be addressed.
No, that is an exploit of someones trust, just like scamming and corp theft.
______________________________________________
The Battleships is not and should not be a solo pwnmobile - Oveur |
Niki Silver
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Posted - 2005.12.18 20:54:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu
Originally by: Niki Silver
Originally by: Jarnis McPieksu
Maybe devs should make a news item warning everyone...? Lots of people are falling for it.
Maybe even work this into the tutorial at some point?
Are you the guy that lobbied for the law requiring that big huge tag on hair dryer cords that says warning: do not use while in the bath tub?
Stupid people deserve to suffer the consequences of thier own stupidity.
I have no issues when a week old character fails the reading comprehension and gets blown up.
But when 30min old char gets ganked because he peeked into a can and didn't know how game mechanics worked - that's when I get ****ed, at the ganker.
Heck, if the ganker is sitting at 100km with BS, the noob might just look around and ignore the message just because he doesn't understand the mechanics.
So, explaining this to noobs in the tutorial = good idea IMHO. Now if they still get killed after they have been told in gory detail how the mechanics with cans work, THEN its their own fault.
Good point - I agree
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Niki Silver
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Posted - 2005.12.18 21:03:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Niki Silver on 18/12/2005 21:03:29
Originally by: Tilde Ampersand
Originally by: Niki Silver
Like all of the above posters have already stated - There is an obvious warning requiring player acknowledgment before they become flagged. If someone is that stupid, they deserve to be killed. I think it is hillarious that people are actually that stupid, and I fully support those who are punishing them for it.
Scene: Joe, a stupid griefer type that loves nothing better than to cause everyone around him as much grief as possible. He doesn't have the gonads to go out in the real world and PvP against REAL players, so he sits in 1.0 and, pre-RMR, steals their ore, loot and whatever.
Now, with the new can****ging, he doesnt need anything but a well equipped Kestral and a tier 2 skillbook to grief anybody.
Joe > Here, take it, i have 3
N00b > I dunno, man, I don't wanna be a thief
Joe > It's alright, I'm not gonna pod you, I'm just being nice
convo goes on for a couple minutes and Joe convinces the n00b he's a carebear... The n00b takes the bait and Joe pods em, possibly even blows the pod.
THAT it an exploit of a game feature and really does need to be addressed. Anyone against a means to flag a can as truely FREE has got to be a 'Joe'. Jetting a can in space for a fast, free trade is ALWAYS faster and easier than 'Docking request accepted. Approaching starbase' in a n00b ship...
Tilde-
I understand what you are saying and it does make sense. Trust me, I hate griefers as much as anyone. But I hate dumb people even more. It is much better for a new player to learn to not trust everyone early on, instead of weeks / months later when they are actually going to lose something of value. Eve is full of villains. The villains baiting noobs into taking from cans are creating more alert and aware players out of those noobs, and they will be that much harder for Joe Griefer to kill down the road.
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Plekto
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Posted - 2005.12.18 21:14:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Plekto on 18/12/2005 21:18:59
The simple solution is to make there be a timer. If the jetcan is left alone for more than 15 minutes or so, it's considered junk/abandoned. If they want more time, get a real can and anchor it properly.
Much easier solution, because sometimes people do leave drones and junk(to them) behind from time to time.
Yes, this is a repeat of someone else's idea - people aren't listening! Since the can explodes after an hour anyways, there should be a simmilar time limit where it becomes abandoned. For people worried about peolpe stealing loot in complexes and missions, 5 minutes would be easily enough, so 15 is more than fair. Plus, if you can't get your hauler back to the belt in 15 mins - you deserve to loose it.
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Spy4Hire
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Posted - 2005.12.18 21:34:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Vixa Ambrodel
Usually I just click Do Not Show again whenever there's a pop-up and I know what I'm doing...
This is the ONLY one I will NEVER EVER do that with! It can lead to a lot of bad situations if I just pop a can without noticing the corp ticker on it and it saved my ship not only once but TWICE last night. So this warning SHOULD be sufficient to anyone, even new players. If they ignore it, it's their own stupidity and not an exploit...
Yes, but unfortunately those idiotic pop-ups sieze your UI so you can't do crap until you close them. Warnings should pop up and stop whatever action that they're warning against, but should not otherwise hamper your UI. That's why people select 'don't show this bullhockey again' because of the loss of control whenever it appears.
Have a new option on warnings: Display Minimized - the warning text flashes up along the top of your UI with 'ok, cancel action' or 'ignore and confirm action' buttons nearby. If you decide to take another action and ignore the warning (like warp away or some other activity such as deactivating the weapon about to shoot a non-war target) then you should be able to do that and the UI takes that as a 'ok' and deactivates the warning.
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.12.18 21:44:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Tilde Ampersand
convo goes on for a couple minutes and Joe convinces the n00b he's a carebear... The n00b takes the bait and Joe pods em, possibly even blows the pod.
THAT it an exploit of a game feature and really does need to be addressed. Anyone against a means to flag a can as truely FREE has got to be a 'Joe'. Jetting a can in space for a fast, free trade is ALWAYS faster and easier than 'Docking request accepted. Approaching starbase' in a n00b ship...
It only goes for the ship and not the pod.
Anyway, its like real life. The guy in the park wanting to give you sweeties may be nice or he might have plans with his trouser snake. Rather let people learn that bad things can happen in a game huh?
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Kartock Maar
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Posted - 2005.12.18 22:21:00 -
[149]
CCP should give you an option to turn off can flagging ...there is a lot of stuff I leave out for who ever wants it. That would save alot of time. If it does not warn you it is free game ...if it warns you ...it is your arse!
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Amasera
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Posted - 2005.12.18 22:45:00 -
[150]
a new player convo'd me and asked if he could take the containers marked with my corps tag, i was mining, it was all rat loot, and i don't have time to get it in the time between 2 cycles(i'm mining with a cruiser, don't have the barge skills yet, so i'm doing 60 sec cycles). so i let the poor guy have it.
i didn't have any weapons except my donres (which were killing the rats) but i called them back cause i wasn't sure if they would attack or not.
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