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The Apostle
The Black Priests
669
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Posted - 2011.10.26 22:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
I made a really dumb post the other day. I expected half an effort by miners when I suggested miners make a stand to get a mechanic changed. I flew into 100's of systems chasing support and all I was met with is "it'll never work". And with some reflection I'm inclined to think that's true. Not because CCP won't change (they do and have), but because miners are (and I say this without malice) selfish and lazy.
With hindsight, the post and the idea was dumb.
I make this post in an attempt to counter the problem with some thought rather then belligerence.
Suicide ganking IS an issue. There have been countless posts on the topic, from haha posts to steps to mitigate the risk. All valid to some degree but none really address why it happens.
Many arguments stem from the fact that miners should not be risk free and nor should they be able to make isk risk free. It's said that it should be allowed for 'economic' reasons ad nauseum.
However, the same should also be said for mission runners but we know they can't be ganked without serious firepower and dedication. So the whole concept of preventing "risk free income" in highsec is void right there.
If we accept that this is the reasoning behind ganking, we must also ask why suicide ganking is actually neccessary. Why not war-dec and get the free kill? No Concord and no sec status hit. Why indeed?
It's because half the miners (an assumption) sit in NPC corps - many are bots. Even if they join a "real" corp they can simply hop corps on a war-dec. They have MADE mining a relatively risk free pasttime and suicide ganking is the ONLY way to counter it.
With this in mind why should we not seek changes to provide for greater PvP opportunities AND allow for both economic, strategic and tactical advantages by killing both miners AND missioners.
This can only be done with 2 changes imho
1) Remove the ability to stay in an NPC for greater than some arbitrary time. (eg: 90 days). Failure to join a corp involves seizure of assets until you do.
2) Once a war-dec has been declared, NO members can either leave or join during the declaration.
Ofc, the miners still need some kind of protection from mindless violence when there are now more ways to kill them, validly and legitimately. An inability to target unarmed vessels UNLESS war-decced is a potential option.
And ofc, there are those that say this makes for 'consensual PvP' and to some extent it does. But war-dec mechanics exist in highsec for a reason and we should be making these mechanics far more effective. At the moment they're as good as pointless.
The alternative is to invalidate the entire concept of highsec, remove the neccessity to war-dec, remove Concord and let players decide who lives or dies. A true sandbox.
To be frank, it won't make the slightest difference to miners whether highsec, Concord or any such measures exist. They're dying anyway. Let's get highsec missioners and all other risk free isk makers in on the killmails as well.
Discuss.... Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Psychophantic
82
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Posted - 2011.10.26 22:56:00 -
[2] - Quote
INB4 hi-sec mission bots run by null alliances. |
Rocky Deadshot
In The Goo EVE Trade Alliance
39
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Posted - 2011.10.26 22:58:00 -
[3] - Quote
all crap.
imho the only problem is the relatively little money mining makes (lolz... mining) and the relatively low cost it takes to destroy the relatively expensive ship thats doing the mining.
compared to mission runners that make substantially more isk/hr than miners, and to be ganked much more expensive set ups are required.
Exhumers need a sister t2 class that actually as the ability to tank enough to survive solo ganks in .7 and up from a tier 1 BS. (with moderate fitting) and 2 man ganks (with good fitting).
give miners the ability to tank... then gank all you like, its their fault it they are untanked... |
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
27
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Suicide ganking IS an issue.
Stopped reading here, no it isn't. Been around since the start of Eve, working as intended.
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Alpheias
Euphoria Released HYDRA RELOADED
105
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:04:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Suicide ganking IS an issue.
Suicide ganking has never been a issue for me. Ever. 10/19 2011 - never forget the 20%
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration
86
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
I'm all for war.... but this is a really bad idea. Your going to forever be griefed by some pirate corp and will have no way out if this idea took hold. You could trap people into a corp indefinitely. In fact, as a CEO, you know what I would do with this? I would hire all the logistics and miner help I could. I would pay a signing bonus of 50 - 200 mil per member to join up, ensuring that they were well established characters with good SP. Now their SP is a commodity... you can see in the sell forums that SP = ISK when you want to sell a character... so unbeknownst to my members I will essentially be paying a tiny fraction of their SP value for their allegiance. With me so far? Now my alt (really main) in his pirate corp decs my corp. I'm fine with it... none of my members can leave. I have access to all of their coms, all corp asserts are controlled by me, I know what is in all of their hangers. Now I can go through and ransome each individual for billions. They want their characters? They will dance for me. ...but here's the thing.... the war never ends! I never let them out! I jack up the corporate tax to 50% and I let it ride forever. Result? They are broke, they are screwed, they quit eve.
Sounds like the worst mechanic ever.
Really profoundly horrid, in fact.
Fail OP. All GëíGêçGëí Ships | Many Odd GëíGêçGëí Items (+Drones) | <-- Links to showInfo in-game |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1025
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
I'll join the crowd and sayGǪThe Apostle wrote:Suicide ganking IS an issue. How so?
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
669
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I'll join the crowd and sayGǪ The Apostle wrote:Suicide ganking IS an issue. How so? Ask the victims.
Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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The Apostle
The Black Priests
669
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:12:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gogela wrote:I'm all for war.... but this is a really bad idea. Your going to forever be griefed by some pirate corp and will have no way out if this idea took hold. You could trap people into a corp indefinitely. In fact, as a CEO, you know what I would do with this? I would hire all the logistics and miner help I could. I would pay a signing bonus of 50 - 200 mil per member to join up, ensuring that they were well established characters with good SP. Now their SP is a commodity... you can see in the sell forums that SP = ISK when you want to sell a character... so unbeknownst to my members I will essentially be paying a tiny fraction of their SP value for their allegiance. With me so far? Now my alt (really main) in his pirate corp decs my corp. I'm fine with it... none of my members can leave. I have access to all of their coms, all corp asserts are controlled by me, I know what is in all of their hangers. Now I can go through and ransome each individual for billions. They want their characters? They will dance for me. ...but here's the thing.... the war never ends! I never let them out! I jack up the corporate tax to 50% and I let it ride forever. Result? They are broke, they are screwed, they quit eve.
Sounds like the worst mechanic ever.
Really profoundly horrid, in fact.
Fail OP. Missioner...
Time for some pew pew. That's why it's bad. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Beamer Grey
DucKtape Unlimited SpaceMonkey's Alliance
1
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:15:00 -
[10] - Quote
Everything should have risk including mining. The more people suicide gank miners the higher the price of minerals. The higher the price of minerals the more people think they should go mine. It is not that hard to avoid getting suicide ganked, just learn from your mistakes. Isk Watch - Trading Blog |
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Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
40
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Suicide ganking isn't an issue.
Mining been incredibly boring and low-income is.
If you made ice-mining use some sort of mini-game to get the ice, involving actually actively mining instead of just 'click roid, wait 5 mins, dump cargo, repeat' then it would, 1: Be more fun for miners 2: Reduce botting considerably (since you'd need a far smarter bot to do it) 3: Would mean miners aren't AFK so are more awake and can react to enemies warping in
Not that I would object to hulks/macs getting some more tank as well. -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it! Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
1025
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Tippia wrote:I'll join the crowd and sayGǪ The Apostle wrote:Suicide ganking IS an issue. How so? Ask the victims. So how is suicide ganking an issue?
GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Baphommet
Sonoran Sun Legion Eternal Strife
2
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
Only read half. You're obviously not playing the same game we are. Suicide ganking is not an issue. Mustache |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
171
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:24:00 -
[14] - Quote
its not an issue, its working as intended
Fly Stupid, Die Stupid The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Roadkill Rhino
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
22
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Rhinanna wrote:Suicide ganking isn't an issue.
Mining been incredibly boring and low-income is.
If you made ice-mining use some sort of mini-game to get the ice, involving actually actively mining instead of just 'click roid, wait 5 mins, dump cargo, repeat' then it would, 1: Be more fun for miners 2: Reduce botting considerably (since you'd need a far smarter bot to do it) 3: Would mean miners aren't AFK so are more awake and can react to enemies warping in
Not that I would object to hulks/macs getting some more tank as well.
So you think that all the miners, who probably mine because it can be done semi passively, are suddenly going to jump for joy at the idea of some minigame being added to mining. I can see it being fun for 5 minutes. Now see them doing this minigame over and over every time you mine and then see if people still find it fun.
Let's not forget to add minigames to npcing, mission running and also pvp, weeeeeeeeee! Fun times ahead for all! |
Aargolos
Estrale Frontiers
4
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Since nobody else has said it yet, 1/10. |
rootimus maximus
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Tippia wrote:The Apostle wrote:Tippia wrote:I'll join the crowd and sayGǪ The Apostle wrote:Suicide ganking IS an issue. How so? Ask the victims. So how is suicide ganking an issue?
LMAO. Well played, Tippia. |
Russell Casey
One Ton
50
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:29:00 -
[18] - Quote
Why suicide gank instead of war dec you ask?
War dec: warns the victims 24 hours in advance, flags you in local as a hostile so they know not to undock, can be avoided by dropping corps or just leaving the valuables at home till it's over.
Suicide gank: Bang, you're dead and all your stuff is gone in seconds. No warning. No chance to dock up all your miners or that hauler full of PLEX. And it doesn't matter if you're in an NPC or player-corp, both can be suicided. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
669
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Baphommet wrote:Only read half. You're obviously not playing the same game we are. Suicide ganking is not an issue. If I wanted Ostriches I would've called the post "Free bird seed here". Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
143
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Suicide ganking isn't an issue.
Victim survivability is. Its too easy to kill them.
How to fix.
CCP can help out a little bit.
Educate pilots better even though missions at least. Have training missions where they are mining much as possible and told to run away when an npc battleship shows up.
Make civillian ships tougher to kill in hp terms since they really dont have that many offenses, that way they have a better chance in high sec while low sec will have little effect of additional HP as the gankers have infitenly more time to deal with the buff.
Make active tanking better.
The rest is reliant on players, I hope eve university/agony empire (if they're still around) does teach a course on enemy evasion and hostile survivability.
Also to encourage players to stay at the rocks some sort of interaction to make them pay attention. |
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Velicitia
Open Designs
26
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:33:00 -
[21] - Quote
Tippia wrote:I'll join the crowd and sayGǪ The Apostle wrote:Suicide ganking IS an issue. How so?
suicide ganking is an issue only insofar as it is stupid easy to destroy (significantly more expensive) mining ships with basic T1 ships. It is also a problem because there is no real defence to it .
I know comparing EVE to RL is a bad idea ... but say we had a few warships protecting something. If a "bad guy" or an unknown entity was getting too close, the warships might fire a warning shot (i.e. intentional miss). There's no way to have this "warning shot" fired in EVE (well, without the ensuing CONCORDOKKEN).
What if CCP added something like this? Then if someone questionable showed up, having a defender or two with a mining gang would make sense ... defenders fire a warning shot (no aggro timer, no GCC) at the possible threat. This leaves them with two options... try to gank the miners anyway, or move on to an easier target. |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
669
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Russell Casey wrote:Why suicide gank instead of war dec you ask?
War dec: warns the victims 24 hours in advance, flags you in local as a hostile so they know not to undock, can be avoided by dropping corps or just leaving the valuables at home till it's over.
Suicide gank: Bang, you're dead and all your stuff is gone in seconds. No warning. No chance to dock up all your miners or that hauler full of PLEX. And it doesn't matter if you're in an NPC or player-corp, both can be suicided. So gank some of the "risk free" missioners using the same argument.
Wait. You can't.
Unarmed mining vessels. Tough guy. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Russell Casey
One Ton
50
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Russell Casey wrote:Why suicide gank instead of war dec you ask?
War dec: warns the victims 24 hours in advance, flags you in local as a hostile so they know not to undock, can be avoided by dropping corps or just leaving the valuables at home till it's over.
Suicide gank: Bang, you're dead and all your stuff is gone in seconds. No warning. No chance to dock up all your miners or that hauler full of PLEX. And it doesn't matter if you're in an NPC or player-corp, both can be suicided. So gank some of the "risk free" missioners using the same argument. Wait. You can't. Unarmed mining vessels. Tough guy.
Out of curiousity, how many mining alts of yours got killed and how many times to get you this bitter? |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1301
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Russell Casey wrote:Why suicide gank instead of war dec you ask?
War dec: warns the victims 24 hours in advance, flags you in local as a hostile so they know not to undock, can be avoided by dropping corps or just leaving the valuables at home till it's over.
Suicide gank: Bang, you're dead and all your stuff is gone in seconds. No warning. No chance to dock up all your miners or that hauler full of PLEX. And it doesn't matter if you're in an NPC or player-corp, both can be suicided. So gank some of the "risk free" missioners using the same argument. Wait. You can't. Unarmed mining vessels. Tough guy.
I'm glad you've come around to my solution, making mission runners more easily ganked. |
Baphommet
Sonoran Sun Legion Eternal Strife
2
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:42:00 -
[25] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Baphommet wrote:Only read half. You're obviously not playing the same game we are. Suicide ganking is not an issue. If I wanted Ostriches I would've called the post "Free bird seed here".
I don't understand that to be honest, what do you mean? Mustache |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
669
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:43:00 -
[26] - Quote
Russell Casey wrote:The Apostle wrote:Russell Casey wrote:Why suicide gank instead of war dec you ask?
War dec: warns the victims 24 hours in advance, flags you in local as a hostile so they know not to undock, can be avoided by dropping corps or just leaving the valuables at home till it's over.
Suicide gank: Bang, you're dead and all your stuff is gone in seconds. No warning. No chance to dock up all your miners or that hauler full of PLEX. And it doesn't matter if you're in an NPC or player-corp, both can be suicided. So gank some of the "risk free" missioners using the same argument. Wait. You can't. Unarmed mining vessels. Tough guy. Out of curiousity, how many mining alts of yours got killed and how many times to get you this bitter? For the record. None.
I dumped all my mining vessels because I can't be bothered anymore. As a single player running a couple of Hulks the risk is too great and the rewards far too small.
And that's my motivation against this crap. MY gameplay is being affected by a game mechanic that is risk free while I am subject to absolute destruction for pennies. I mined passively while I ran my business in RL. I was always active and never used bots.
But I'll be ****** if I have to sit and do all the crap neccessary to avoid death so somebody else can get their cheap thrills. The money I earn doing the mining paid for my efforts in lowsec ops and trying to move forward in the game.
As it is for soooo many people in Eve. THEIR style of gameplay, casual mining for low rewards, is being affected. Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Baphommet
Sonoran Sun Legion Eternal Strife
2
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:44:00 -
[27] - Quote
But I'll be ****** if I have to sit and do all the crap neccessary to avoid death
Well there's you problem! Mustache |
The Apostle
The Black Priests
669
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Baphommet wrote:The Apostle wrote:Baphommet wrote:Only read half. You're obviously not playing the same game we are. Suicide ganking is not an issue. If I wanted Ostriches I would've called the post "Free bird seed here". I don't understand that to be honest, what do you mean? Ignoring an issue or pretending it doesn't exist is called "burying your head in the sand".
Myth has it that Ostriches (birds) do this to "hide"....
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/80800.html Take an aspirin. If pain persists consult your local priest. WTB: An Austrian kangaroo!
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Baphommet
Sonoran Sun Legion Eternal Strife
2
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:46:00 -
[29] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:Baphommet wrote:The Apostle wrote:Baphommet wrote:Only read half. You're obviously not playing the same game we are. Suicide ganking is not an issue. If I wanted Ostriches I would've called the post "Free bird seed here". I don't understand that to be honest, what do you mean? Ignoring an issue or pretending it doesn't exist is called "burying your head in the sand". Myth has it that Ostriches (birds) do this to "hide".... http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/80800.html
Thanks for the clarification Mustache |
Danks
Fat Angry Toe Tappin Inbreds
27
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Posted - 2011.10.26 23:48:00 -
[30] - Quote
The Apostle wrote:. MY gameplay is being affected..... But I'll be ****** if I have to sit and do all the crap neccessary to avoid death....
Ok, found your problem for you. A thank you is not necessary but you can feel free to send isk. |
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