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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 29 post(s) |
Sgt Ocker
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.08.05 14:14:00 -
[481] - Quote
Ayana Mayuko wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Ayana Mayuko wrote:Sgt Ocker wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Making mining links usable in a FF is pure pandering nonsense. That change should be all or nothing. Yeah have a rorqual that has no way to defend itself forced out of shields for every 2 bit ganker to come along and shoot at.. Great idea.. As long as you have the money ($ that is not isk, eventually unless you are an isk trillionare $ will be the main currency in eve) to start buying plex to pay for your T1 cruiser losses. Orcas and Rorquals need a massive boost to self defence capabilities before being forced out of shields. Rorqual has a FAR better defence capability compared to a command ship, in active tank, EHP and DPS. Just saying. That's why they survive a couple seconds to a hot drop blops/bomber wing. Indeed they have too much useless HP. If I found a boosting T3/command ship in a safespot I would (and do) drop it and kill it, just as I would kill a Rorqual/Orca. The reason command ships aren't hunted as much as Rorquals are (ISK value aisde, obviously that is a factor) because they fly with combat capable fleets. Rorquals do not. There isn't a reason why Rorquals shouldn't have PvP ships defending them just as command ships would have apart from maybe the fact that PvPers have no real incentive to protect these ships which really comes down to the alliance/corp rather than game mechanics. There is a very good reason many mining gangs don't have pvp defence fleets with them, it has a great deal to do with game mechanics.. Rorquals can't carry anything other than indy ships, now you could take a carrier with you loaded up with pvp ships but there is still the problem of getting the pilots to them. Rorqual has limited space for jump clones. PVPers in a lot of cases care little for miners, which is often their loss, as they then have to pay more for ships on the market because their indy corp is no longer able to build them. but then the more rorquals and other indies that die the higher ship prices go for everybody so it really is a never ending circle. For me, if they force capital industrials out of shields without a good buff I will sell mine and let it and my mining chars die.
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Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
753
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 14:33:00 -
[482] - Quote
Sgt Ocker wrote:...For me, if they force capital industrials out of shields without a good buff I will sell mine and let it and my mining chars die. Fairly easy solution that doesn't break anything: Remove siege requirement for links and up the Orca agility.
Will make them far more viable in the belts where they will end up once the on-grid kicks in (ie. when hell opens ski resorts, because :CCP:), Gives you the choice of having bigger links on a proper fat-ass or weaker links on something that can more easily escape.
-Or-
You could ask for the bonus to apply to all links. Leeroy combat Rorqs .. warp in with fleet, deploy! |
Mara Maken
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2013.08.05 18:55:00 -
[483] - Quote
Edit |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3760
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Posted - 2013.08.05 20:25:00 -
[484] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote: This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!
I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!
I've got 4 characters with really solid leadership skills and I'm totally ok with CCP deleting all the leadership skills and not even reimbursing me. At the absolute minimum, gang links are far too powerful and even the nerf that is being discussed isn't nearly powerful enough.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maraner
The Executioners Insidious Empire
271
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Posted - 2013.08.05 21:37:00 -
[485] - Quote
I feel that the nerf to the armor and shield links are too harsh.
I'm not completely clear why the nerf is so much harder to these links than other, will read back as far as able. But I would suggest that this be brought back a degree.
A 10% reduction to what these links provided (I hope that is broadly correct) is a big step down. I'd like to see around half of that and a rebalance later as required. Can someone point me at a clear rationale from the Devs as to why? Thanks!
Oh and death to of grid boosting. I have an alt, (we all do) and we often use OGB's. Still OP and silly, it's in the game so dumb not to use it, but I will still cheer when it's gone. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2441
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 22:10:00 -
[486] - Quote
Maraner wrote:I feel that the nerf to the armor and shield links are too harsh.
I'm not completely clear why the nerf is so much harder to these links than other, will read back as far as able. But I would suggest that this be brought back a degree.
A 10% reduction to what these links provided (I hope that is broadly correct) is a big step down. I'd like to see around half of that and a rebalance later as required. Can someone point me at a clear rationale from the Devs as to why? Thanks!
Oh and death to of grid boosting. I have an alt, (we all do) and we often use OGB's. Still OP and silly, it's in the game so dumb not to use it, but I will still cheer when it's gone.
Too harsh... you mean not harsh enough!!!
Shield Harmonizing: 24% Resists = 1 / .76 = 31.5% Effective Increase to Shield Boosts. Active Shielding: 24% Rate of Boosts = 1 / .76 = 31.5% Effective Increase to Shield Boosting.
Cumulative Effect of the three Siege Links = 1.315*1.315 = 1.73 = 73% Effective Increase in Reps.
The cumulative benefit of defensive (Siege and Armor) has NO BUSINESS being more effective than pirate implants and drugs.
Full Crystal Set: +54% Shield Boosts. Standard / Improved / Strong Blue Pill: + 20% / 25% / 30% Shield Boosts.
Reduce Defensive links to 12.5% maximum bonus. This will put their cumulative rep bonus at 30%, which is pretty much where it should be, at least until Boosters are forced On Grid.
Alternatively, change the boosts to depend on fleet size! That way boosts are still very potent for large fleets, but not so game breakingly imbalanced for small gang PvP! Example on how to do that!
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Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
18
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Posted - 2013.08.05 22:13:00 -
[487] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote: This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!
I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!
I've got 4 characters with really solid leadership skills and I'm totally ok with CCP deleting all the leadership skills and not even reimbursing me. At the absolute minimum, gang links are far too powerful and even the nerf that is being discussed isn't nearly powerful enough. -Liang
Dear Liang,
i respect you, but no killing the fleetboost is like ditching the fleet as whole. Target calling isnt worth a own ship. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3763
|
Posted - 2013.08.05 23:52:00 -
[488] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote: Dear Liang,
i respect you, but no killing the fleetboost is like ditching the fleet as whole. Target calling isnt worth a own ship.
The problem with links is that they quickly become mandatory. This is pretty much an expected consequence of having a global 50% boost in a game where people train 2 months for a 2% benefit. A mindlinked fleet booster shouldn't provide more than a 5% bonus in absolute terms. IMO.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Hokoe
Zero Dark Thirty
0
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Posted - 2013.08.06 00:41:00 -
[489] - Quote
How do you get concord LP? There are no Concord agent. what the ! Sorry but whats up? |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1278
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 00:54:00 -
[490] - Quote
Skirmish Warfare: Interdiction Maneuvers needs to be brought down even more. Dropping a T2 disruptor from 36km to 33km is not exactly a game changer. Nerf that **** into the ground. |
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Hokoe
Zero Dark Thirty
0
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Posted - 2013.08.06 01:05:00 -
[491] - Quote
All you have to do is buy lots of plex an you will have all the isk you want ! lol The more they give. The more they take away. |
Draconus Lofwyr
EntroPrelatial Industria Here Be Dragons
72
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Posted - 2013.08.06 01:09:00 -
[492] - Quote
Hokoe wrote:How do you get concord LP? There are no Concord agent. what the ! Sorry but whats up? gang bonuses can be use on both side of the battle so y is it a problem. Is it because most ganker are not in a fleets. All I see is this game is going to buy plex buy plex. lol
Incursions give concord LP. |
Monsieur Leon
Lopht Heavy Industries
5
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 02:44:00 -
[493] - Quote
Lexar Mundi wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Lexar Mundi wrote:Mining links should not be given special treatment...
Give them an ORE battlecruiser size ship to run links on or something but to let them run links inside shield is pretty lame. We do intend to move mining links out of forcefields someday, but we'll want to rebalance the Orca and Rorqual first to make putting them on grid more viable first. That is understandable. ty for the fast response.
Idiots, can only think it would be a great idea to require an industrial ship, a lethargic, very slow to warp ship, with only 5 drones for defensive / offensive capability to be boosting outside the POS.
Its not like the "children of the corn" posting in glee on this forum are flying around null in a 2.3 billion isk frigate.
The last year and this year there seems to be a theme of rebalancing. Well before rolling out that gem of a change lets "balance" things for the miners and indy corps as well.
Rorqual / Orca ORE ship special boost = +4 warp strength / +125% agility / -125% to sig radius
ORE ships +15% to damage and area of effect for smartbombs per level
+50% bonus to effectiveness of ECM modules.
If your going to force them to be vulnerable, you should at least make them harder to catch.
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Monsieur Leon
Lopht Heavy Industries
5
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Posted - 2013.08.06 02:51:00 -
[494] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote: This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!
I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!
I've got 4 characters with really solid leadership skills and I'm totally ok with CCP deleting all the leadership skills and not even reimbursing me. At the absolute minimum, gang links are far too powerful and even the nerf that is being discussed isn't nearly powerful enough. -Liang
I think your full of ****. Put your api info in your next post so we can verify your not lying through your teeth. No one likes getting their skills nerfed. Especially to a group of skills that have only one specific use.
Whats the name of your CCP alt? |
Omnathious Deninard
Novis Initiis
1429
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 03:04:00 -
[495] - Quote
Monsieur Leon wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote: This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!
I highly disagree with your opinion, think how long sklling is needed to get, 1 Fleet Commander at V, 5 Wing Commander at V and 25 Squadleaders to V and have Boosters with the skills for Warefare Links... its a !!Year!!
I've got 4 characters with really solid leadership skills and I'm totally ok with CCP deleting all the leadership skills and not even reimbursing me. At the absolute minimum, gang links are far too powerful and even the nerf that is being discussed isn't nearly powerful enough. -Liang I think your full of ****. Put your api info in your next post so we can verify your not lying through your teeth. No one likes getting their skills nerfed. Especially to a group of skills that have only one specific use. Whats the name of your CCP alt? You should really know who you are talking to before you try to call someone out. Links are powerful, they should be on-grid only anything of any strength whilst off grid is OP. Ideas for Drone ImprovementTwitter Account-á @Omnathious |
Viribus
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
171
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 03:10:00 -
[496] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote: This is a MMORPG, if your able to organize 256 People it should have an advantage for this bunch of Players!
What, having a 256-man fleet isn't enough of an advantage? lmao |
Michael JD
The.Fallen Ex Cinere Scriptor
4
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 04:14:00 -
[497] - Quote
Thanks for breaking something that doesn't need to be changed. If you want links train a toon like everyone else who has them. Stop complaining. CCP please offer the toons that trained leadership skills a refund of the skill points that they have now wasted. |
J A Aloysiusz
Precision Strike Brigade Angeli Mortis
25
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 05:42:00 -
[498] - Quote
Thank you for throwing my legion booster out the window. Because I have not trained the necessary skills for command ships, and T3 boosters will now be laughable, I expect to have my SP returned to me in odyssey 1.1 so I can train something useful. And please, don't tell me that I'm gaining something like "versatility"... If I wanted a half-[donkey]ed information booster, I'd put an alt in a myrmidon and call it a day.
My personal issues aside, I'll point out that the interdiction maneuvers link is receiving a particularly nasty nerf. This seems to me to be a silly idea, seeing as you're simultaneously trying to promote the use of ranged weapons systems. Ranged weapons are just about useless in pvp if your arazu+rapier can no longer tackle to the range necessary to keep them planted. Then again, who was going to use the medium new rails anyway?
All that being said, I approve of the change to the info warfare skill and mindlink. |
Monsieur Leon
Lopht Heavy Industries
6
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 05:42:00 -
[499] - Quote
Michael JD wrote:Thanks for breaking something that doesn't need to be changed. If you want links train a toon like everyone else who has them. Stop complaining. CCP please offer the toons that trained leadership skills a refund of the skill points that they have now wasted.
I have to agree with Michael. This isn't a ship that is being rebalanced. Your impuning a group of people that have worked and sacrificed and put training time (about 3-6 months) to make their fleets worthwhile. You should give us the option on giving back points, should they go that route.
We as players train skills in order to be proficient in what we do and give ourselves, our corps a competitive advantage. When we started playing we were coached by more seasoned players and from time to time the game would change... a little. We put our time and effort into these areas in good faith. We never expected to be blindsided and have all the time and effort devalued so much. The least you could do is give us the option of re-focus our earned points in a different area to keep us playing. |
Zarnak Wulf
In Exile. Imperial Outlaws.
1279
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:10:00 -
[500] - Quote
14 month old dev blog
How the hell did anyone get blindsided by this? |
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Eva Darke
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.08.06 07:42:00 -
[501] - Quote
So, after reading this entire thread it seems like the main points raised in comments are:
- Links are extremely powerful, even with the proposed changes
- Because they're so good, most vets and full-time PvPers have a dedicated link alt
- Nerfing them by any amount is a slap in the face to all those who spent time and money training their alts
- Links don't need fixing because everyone can buy a second account and train a link alt if they want to (WTF?)
Am I missing something? This shows all the signs of a terrible game mechanic that restricts gameplay rather than giving players options. In an engagement where one side has links and the other doesn't, tactics, decision making and player skill become irrelevant. The outcome is already determined. How is this beneficial to the overall gaming experience of EVE?
Aside from the additional revenue CCP receives from alt accounts, is there any reason NOT to just remove links from the game and reimburse SP? |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3231
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:47:00 -
[502] - Quote
J A Aloysiusz wrote:Thank you for throwing my legion booster out the window. Because I have not trained the necessary skills for command ships, and T3 boosters will now be laughable, I expect to have my SP returned to me in odyssey 1.1 so I can train something useful. And please, don't tell me that I'm gaining something like "versatility"... If I wanted a half-[donkey]ed information booster, I'd put an alt in a linky myrmidon and call it a day.
No, the current T3 link fits are laughable and should have never existed. If you haven't trained CS V by now, you have only yourself to blame, these changes were announced like a year ago.
Why should CCP refund your own stupidity?
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3231
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 07:50:00 -
[503] - Quote
Eva Darke wrote:So, after reading this entire thread it seems like the main points raised in comments are:
- Links are extremely powerful, even with the proposed changes
- Because they're so good, most vets and full-time PvPers have a dedicated link alt
- Nerfing them by any amount is a slap in the face to all those who spent time and money training their alts
- Links don't need fixing because everyone can buy a second account and train a link alt if they want to (WTF?)
Everybody and their mother has a link alt because it can sit in a POS in perfect safety, or in a safespot. T3 OGBs get the nerfbat hardest, which is good for everyone.
Btw links should be targeted modules, like RR and RSebo etc. This is the only way to make flying links an interesting role.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
Doed
Tyrfing Industries Viro Mors Non Est
30
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Posted - 2013.08.06 08:01:00 -
[504] - Quote
J A Aloysiusz wrote:Thank you for throwing my legion booster out the window. Because I have not trained the necessary skills for command ships, and T3 boosters will now be laughable, I expect to have my SP returned to me in odyssey 1.1 so I can train something useful. And please, don't tell me that I'm gaining something like "versatility"... If I wanted a half-[donkey]ed information booster, I'd put an alt in a linky myrmidon and call it a day.
My personal issues aside, I'll point out that the interdiction maneuvers link is receiving a particularly nasty nerf. This seems to me to be a silly idea, seeing as you're simultaneously trying to promote the use of ranged weapons systems. Ranged weapons are just about useless in pvp if your arazu+rapier can no longer tackle to the range necessary to keep them planted. Then again, who was going to use the medium new rails anyway?
All that being said, I approve of the change to the info warfare skill and mindlink.
EDIT: at the bare minimum, are you at least increasing the base number of links on T3s? A "versatile" booster ship with fewer boost slots than a specialized one would be idiocy.
hahahahahahaHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you are absolutely pathetic, please quit this game, and any game on the internet FOREVER.
You are the biggest and most pathetic whiner I've ever seen so far.
Whining because your no-skill T3 booster gets nerfed, which you knew it would be over HALF A YEAR ago when it was annnounced, you had OVER 180 DAYS to train for a CS and now you come whining
Get off the internet, for good. you won't be missed.
And yes, before you start your unintelligent stupidwhine again, I have a max skilled T3/CS (all links/t3's/CS) for multi purpose use in WH's. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
2444
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 08:28:00 -
[505] - Quote
Monsieur Leon wrote:Michael JD wrote:Thanks for breaking something that doesn't need to be changed. If you want links train a toon like everyone else who has them. Stop complaining. CCP please offer the toons that trained leadership skills a refund of the skill points that they have now wasted. I have to agree with Michael. This isn't a ship that is being rebalanced. Your impuning a group of people that have worked and sacrificed and put training time (about 3-6 months) to make their fleets worthwhile. You should give us the option on giving back points, should they go that route. We as players train skills in order to be proficient in what we do and give ourselves, our corps a competitive advantage. When we started playing we were coached by more seasoned players and from time to time the game would change... a little. We put our time and effort into these areas in good faith. We never expected to be blindsided and have all the time and effort devalued so much. The least you could do is give us the option of re-focus our earned points in a different area to keep us playing.
CCP announced the change over a year ago, actually stating the desire to completely remove off grid boosting... Frankly, if you were blindsided it was out of willful ignorance or shear obliviousness.
Additionally, claiming that they are "breaking something that doesn't need to be changed" is such complete utter bullshit. Links are game breakingly imbalanced, and while we can all train up a link alt to "rebalance" the field, many pilots don't have that luxury. Links need to be nerfed into the ground, and anyone that thinks otherwise is a spoiled player that simply refuses to look at facts:
Fact: 3x Defensive links give a 125+% increase in your remote and self rep abiliites: You can't achieve that with a full cyrstal implant, a strong booster, AND a head full of hardwirings. Frankly, in a game of 5% increases, this is so far out of line that the ONLY way to compensate is bringing your own booster.
Fact: Interdiction Manuevers gives all t2 tackle mods more range/power than upgrading every web, point, and scram to the most elite faction modules. Without the cost, without the risk This is again, broken.
Fact: Rapid Deployment provides more speed to your ship that a full set of snake implants and a full set of speed hardwirings. It essentially provides three extra free speed rigs to every ship in fleet, and in a game where range control (i.e. speed) is incredibly important to a fight, this is obnoxiously overpowered.
Fact: Each link you add to your fleet, is generally akin to adding a free specific rig or three to every ship in fleet. You cannot add free "slots/modules" to ships and maintain balance against those without, and we all know this.
In short, you should feel bad for agreeing with Michael! |
Ilan Bashar
The Fields of Trenzalore
0
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Posted - 2013.08.06 08:43:00 -
[506] - Quote
Hi,
for "large scale" engagements, the link nerf is problematic. Alpha stike basically means to shoot through the tank buffer before repps can land on the target. The size of the buffer is determined by HP and resists. The nerf will lower the resists, so the buffer gets smaller. In both cases, armor and shield tanking. Also logi based armor tanking is nerfed, because of repper cycle time becoming longer, so the target is down before repps land.
While the nerf is somewhat compensated by boosting the rep amount (I consider local repp a pure smallscale thing) it is not for large scale, where you rely on a buffer to allow the target to catch repps.
The only constructive proposal I can make it to add a HP bonus to the link in order to compensate the EHP loss through the resist nerf.
Tl;dr: In large scale you will now get alpha'ed by less people, even more so in your armor boat. |
Clementina
Coreli Corporation
88
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 11:02:00 -
[507] - Quote
Maybe this has been mentioned before. But would it be possible for gang links to cycle while in warp? They should by no means *work* but they should *cycle* (Be on and expend current, but not actually boost) so that when you land they can just start working and you don't have to turn them on. |
Roime
Ten Thousand Years Shinjiketo
3233
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 11:28:00 -
[508] - Quote
Even better suggestion- you can't warp with active link modules.
Ten Thousand Years is recruiting pioneer spirits to Solitude. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
829
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 12:53:00 -
[509] - Quote
Eva Darke wrote:So, after reading this entire thread it seems like the main points raised in comments are:
- Links are extremely powerful, even with the proposed changes
- Because they're so good, most vets and full-time PvPers have a dedicated link alt
- Nerfing them by any amount is a slap in the face to all those who spent time and money training their alts
- Links don't need fixing because everyone can buy a second account and train a link alt if they want to (WTF?)
Am I missing something? This shows all the signs of a terrible game mechanic that restricts gameplay rather than giving players options. In an engagement where one side has links and the other doesn't, tactics, decision making and player skill become irrelevant. The outcome is already determined. How is this beneficial to the overall gaming experience of EVE? Aside from the additional revenue CCP receives from alt accounts, is there any reason NOT to just remove links from the game and reimburse SP?
I think links do add something to the game, it's just that they're far too powerful, with effects about two or maybe even three times too strong.
One result of this is the desire to jam on as many overpowered links as humanly possibly on to your ship - they're so powerful that you can't afford not too, because your opponents will be doing this themselves. Yet such a fitted ship is too vulnerable to be on grid - hence the OGB problem. But only one thing allows such a ship to exist - the Command Processor, which simultaneously enables excessive numbers of links and prevents them from being viable combat ships.
So, let's remove Command Processors entirely. What happens? T3s and BCs can only fit a single link, which they can do on a combat fit without too much trouble, giving them respectable on-grid survivability. CS can still fit three, as befits their intended role as the premier warfare link problem, along with a tank too. This still leaves the problem of links being fundamentally far too strong, but at least it removes the six-link OGB abominations (which are, ridiculously, getting a partial boost here because of T3s' bonuses to multiple link classes and the fancy new dual mindlinks). |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
19
|
Posted - 2013.08.06 13:03:00 -
[510] - Quote
Again the Problem isnt the Booster its the offgrid!
If i could decide i would first Bann offgrid Boosting forever, keep the High amount of Boosting Skills and would give the opposite Force the ability to see which Fleets/Wings/Squads are connected so they get higher value targets, kill 2/3 of Wing Coms and the Fleet gets massiv disadventages!
The Boost Bonus is fine just the mechanic behind the Fleet Hierarchy is to simple. |
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