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Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
232
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Posted - 2013.09.16 16:42:00 -
[151] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please! Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible. |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard Brothers of Tangra
322
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Posted - 2013.09.16 16:44:00 -
[152] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. "
All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed.
P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
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Posted - 2013.09.16 17:21:00 -
[153] - Quote
tbh i dont really care if it gets nerfed anymore... ill just get a vargur....
that being said i dont see how the machariel makes such a dire difference to the game.
Ive lived in hisec mostly and rarely seen machariels
Ive lived in null sec for a short time (3 months maybe?) and the only mach i heard about was one that my alliance mates found ratting and blew up.
(But omg wait its a machariel cant it just fly away? Guess not sry)
Its not as if we were gettting harrassed by fleets of machariels everyday becuase they are the go to ship for everything in eve is it?
Ive never even seen a mach fleet.
sry I tell a small lie another member of our alliance had an officer fit 1600? dps mach that could not break the tank on a near perfect skilled rattler. (but wait its a mach cant it just....no it couldnt)
its a rarely used ship as it is. If its SOOO excellent why isnt everyone and their mother sporting a machariel?
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
515
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Posted - 2013.09.16 17:25:00 -
[154] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:
You may note that Hyperion has a 7th low slot now, and generous mids. It can buffer tank if you need it to....and it has a rather large sig to start with its 100 more than a mega...any mega..and 80m larger than a Vindi.
Sorry but I forgot to mention that I'm referring to the navy Megathron in the second sentence. The hype can be buffer fit, but like with the maelstrom , it shines with active set ups.[/quote]
Except that active tanks only really shine in small gang, and you need to get....excessive....with active armor to tank more than a couple ships long enough to kill anything.
....and then....neuts |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
83
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Posted - 2013.09.16 17:28:00 -
[155] - Quote
I have never seen a title as likely to get the nerf bat's attention. If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
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Posted - 2013.09.16 17:29:00 -
[156] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:I have never seen a title as likely to get the nerf bat's attention.
:( |
Lilliana Stelles
894
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Posted - 2013.09.16 17:30:00 -
[157] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please! Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible.
IMO the rebalance hasn't exactly made the universe better. It's made it feel much more dumbed-down and themeparky with every ship having a clear role, and has moved some of the ships that formerly stood out into the realm of mediocrity. If we keep going in this direction you'll start seeing "LF HEALZ FOR LOWSEC RAID" popping up in jita local.
If any ships should be allowed to maintain their lore and flavor, it should be those with Jovian design.
The greatest nerf to the Mach has already happened: It's size. It used to be 30% larger before the V3. It's already lost one of its most unique attributes.
It's damage projection will be outclassed by marauders come winter. Considering the new Kronos will be able to hit out to 40km with NEUTRON BLASTERS, autocannons will become third-class weapons.
And it's certainly not the tankiest. It can't compete with the Maelstrom or Abaddon without some serious bling.
ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II. My only suggestion to further balance it might be to increase it's build cost with some exotic extra materials. Incarna from 2009. 3 Years later and what we have doesn't look half as good as this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
26
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Posted - 2013.09.16 17:33:00 -
[158] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please!
Not only is this a terrible idea, it also completely disregards the actual lore you are bastardizing to make your case.
Quote: While its utilitarian look may not give much of an indication, many are convinced that the Machariel is based on an ancient Jovian design uncovered by the Angel Cartel in one of their extensive exploratory raids into uncharted territory some years ago.
"Many are convinced" is no excuse to completely ignore game balance. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
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Posted - 2013.09.16 17:36:00 -
[159] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please! Not only is this a terrible idea, it also completely disregards the actual lore you are bastardizing to make your case. Quote: While its utilitarian look may not give much of an indication, many are convinced that the Machariel is based on an ancient Jovian design uncovered by the Angel Cartel in one of their extensive exploratory raids into uncharted territory some years ago. "Many are convinced" is no excuse to completely ignore game balance.
oh right i guess thats why i see so many machs out there...
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Diesel47
Appetite 4 Destruction
899
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:47:00 -
[160] - Quote
Mra Rednu wrote:Diesel47 wrote:All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. " All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed. P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about then. |
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
371
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Posted - 2013.09.16 18:04:00 -
[161] - Quote
If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull.... |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
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Posted - 2013.09.16 18:32:00 -
[162] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Drake Doe wrote:
Sorry but I forgot to mention that I'm referring to the navy Megathron in the second sentence. The hype can be buffer fit, but like with the maelstrom , it shines with active set ups.
Except that active tanks only really shine in small gang, and you need to get....excessive....with active armor to tank more than a couple ships long enough to kill anything. ....and then....neuts And then you bring passive ships, especially tankier ones such ad rokhs and abaddons. Neuts? Have fun being in somewhere in blaster range. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
KnightMaire kings
Phillips Sciences and Innovations The Wolfpack Nexus
0
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Posted - 2013.09.16 18:50:00 -
[163] - Quote
the mach can put out to much dps to far out to be balenced and is op befor you put in its stuppid fast and stuped agile that is not even relevent to the argument all that matters is no other t2 or p faction bs can kill 1 end of convo it need to be nerfed or all others need a buff (rattler and nighmare (mabby balgorn)) |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
531
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:53:00 -
[164] - Quote
Onictus wrote:[in fact Mael hits harder if you can keep you target in short range ammo territory, if you want to get fancy a shield tanked Fleet Pest can fill the same roll, its alpha is "only 11000 with short range faction.
Confirming that the 8 ROF bonused guns of a Mael hit harder than the 7 ROF and 25% damage bonused guns of the Mach.
Also confirming that 7*1.25 = 8.75, which I confirm is less than 8
I also confirm that the 6 guns of a Fleet Pest will hit harder than the 7 guns of the mach that lose less applied damage due to falloff. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2799
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:58:00 -
[165] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull....
Last night my incursion fleet was so mach heavy I had to wait and wait to get into the action, FC was begging for Vindicators lol.
When I did get into fleet, I pooped on my friendly overview, the entire fleet was machs except the logi, 6 vindicators, a navy raven, a maelstrom and a Hyperion... |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
515
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:28:00 -
[166] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Onictus wrote:[in fact Mael hits harder if you can keep you target in short range ammo territory, if you want to get fancy a shield tanked Fleet Pest can fill the same roll, its alpha is "only 11000 with short range faction. Confirming that the 8 ROF bonused guns of a Mael hit harder than the 7 ROF and 25% damage bonused guns of the Mach. Also confirming that 7*1.25 = 8.75, which I confirm is less than 8 I also confirm that the 6 guns of a Fleet Pest will hit harder than the 7 guns of the mach that lose less applied damage due to falloff.
25% ROF is 33% damage, factoring penetrates, smashes, and wrecking shots my mistake.
....and I never said that the Pest hit harder, I said "only 11,000" which would imply that it was less than the mach's 13,000 quoted now wouldn't it? Not to mention there is room to slide a pair or cruise launchers onto a Fleet Pest, so 9500 some odd for the mael and more like 14,000 for the mach.
For a 1/4 of the price, its not a terrible trade off, plus waiting for 1400s to cycle is like watching your beard grow. |
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
233
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:41:00 -
[167] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please! Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible. IMO the rebalance hasn't exactly made the universe better. It's made it feel much more dumbed-down and themeparky with every ship having a clear role, and has moved some of the ships that formerly stood out into the realm of mediocrity. If we keep going in this direction you'll start seeing "LF HEALZ FOR LOWSEC RAID" popping up in jita local. If any ships should be allowed to maintain their lore and flavor, it should be those with Jovian design. The greatest nerf to the Mach has already happened: It's size. It used to be 30% larger before the V3. It's already lost one of its most unique attributes. It's damage projection will be outclassed by marauders come winter. Considering the new Kronos will be able to hit out to 40km with NEUTRON BLASTERS, autocannons will become third-class weapons. And it's certainly not the tankiest. It can't compete with the Maelstrom or Abaddon without some serious bling. ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II. My only suggestion to further balance it might be to increase it's build cost with some exotic extra materials.
I'll agree that the balance hasn't made things perfect, but I would say it made things much better.
Pre-tiericide: "I want to fly a (Kestrel, Atron, Punisher, Merlin, frigate that isn't Rifter). I'd better just forget this and fly a Rifter." "Thrasher is best Dessie." "Cruisers are trash, and the Rupture is the king of trash." "Better fly a Drake or Cane."
I think the only ship class for which tiers worked was BS's because it left a significantly cheaper option in the BS class where the cost finally became important enough to want a wide spread of options. Everything else was a case of "pick this or die".
Post-tiericide: Fly what you want, some are better than others, and some are pretty situation dependent, but you actually have choices, and it's more player skill dependent than before.
Lilliana Stelles wrote: ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II.
No. ISK isn't a balancing factor. Method of acquisition is. We the players set the ISK value based on supply (method of acquisition) and demand (based on stats of the module). If Officer mods had stats on par with TII they'd cost an arbitrary amount based on how many people want to fit their ship thematically (e.g. Estamel's Raven). They would still cost more due to the low supply, but due to the relatively low demand they wouldn't cost as much as now. |
Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc. The Volition Cult
11
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Posted - 2013.09.16 19:46:00 -
[168] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Matthias Thullmann wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%. What about the gallente bonus being to drone speed? You don't really need falloff if you have fast drones anyway. That would be relevant if all drones moved
Well the projectile bonus is irrelevant if you use hybrid too... just use drones that move (heavies etc). If the fit is sentry it impacts the DPS somewhat tho.
Better they nerf that than bring the speed down to 800m/s with mwd. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:54:00 -
[169] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull.... Last night my incursion fleet was so mach heavy I had to wait and wait to get into the action, FC was begging for Vindicators lol. When I did get into fleet, I pooped on my friendly overview, the entire fleet was machs except the logi, 6 vindicators, a navy raven, a maelstrom and a Hyperion...
cool party. are incursions fleets of this type done a lot? |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
533
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:32:00 -
[170] - Quote
Onictus wrote:25% ROF is 33% damage, factoring penetrates, smashes, and wrecking shots my mistake.
If you are talking DPS and not alpha, but that is still completely irrelevant, because the mach gets the same ROF bonus (without BS even being trained to V). 8 guns with a 25% rof bonus vs 7 guns with a 25% rof bonus and a 25% damage bonus.
Your claim that the mael hits harder is just plain wrong. The mach out DPSs it, and out alphas it. And becuase projectiles mostly operate in falloff, the machs falloff bonus leads to even more applied DPS. And because the mach is faster, by active piloting, you can lower the traversal between you and your target even more, leading to even more applied damage.
You can keep trying, but its futile, no other projectile boat comes close to dealing as much damage as the mach. Nor do any come close in speed. And you want to claim that isk or ~10% ehp difference balances this.... sure, whatever |
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Krullon
nul-li-fy Nulli Secunda
10
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Posted - 2013.09.17 06:51:00 -
[171] - Quote
LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day! |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
533
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 09:00:00 -
[172] - Quote
Krullon wrote:LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day!
Translation:
Dear CCP, I fly the mach because it is OP'd. Please keep it OP'd so I don't have to consider any other BS, and I have the best BS for nearly all situations. |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard Brothers of Tangra
323
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 19:16:00 -
[173] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Mra Rednu wrote:Diesel47 wrote:All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. " All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed. P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about then.
Still more than you I'd wager. |
Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
20
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Posted - 2013.09.17 22:41:00 -
[174] - Quote
Machariel & cynabal have been waiting a well deserved nerf bat strike for quite some times now. https://twitter.com/folkvangrcorp GÇö Freyja's space log. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
868
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 05:12:00 -
[175] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Krullon wrote:LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day! Translation: Dear CCP, I fly the mach because it is OP'd. Please keep it OP'd so I don't have to consider any other BS, and I have the best BS for nearly all situations.
Theres lots of good posts here explaining why thats not exactly the case.
Out of the 4 empires, it really only excels in Minmatar for PvE. It really Only Excels in small gang PvP, and certainly not a small gang of Machs. Its an Angel killer. Let it kill Angels. Give it a slight agility penalty and be done with it. Dont make it less powerful than an RS.
Go do the Assault in a TFI, RS, and Mach. Mach will come in last place. The TFI isnt even pirate. Run it in a RNI just for ***** and giggles. Watch it lose. Then Run it in a Dominix and watch it tie at best.
Go run a wormhole with it. Run it in a WR and time it against an Armageddon. 2nd Place out of 2.
Go solo PvP it vs a VIdi. Watch your ISKies go bye bye as you get web ****** in the Jove-hole.
Its great, it's not the best ship hands down. It needs a small tweak, not a nerf. Eve is Real |
Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
213
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 08:08:00 -
[176] - Quote
But what if the Machariel isn't OP, but the other pirate BS are underpowered? |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
534
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 09:46:00 -
[177] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Go do the Assault in a TFI, RS, and Mach. Mach will come in last place. The TFI isnt even pirate. Run it in a RNI just for ***** and giggles. Watch it lose. Then Run it in a Dominix and watch it tie at best.
Go run a wormhole with it. Run it in a WR and time it against an Armageddon. 2nd Place out of 2.
Go solo PvP it vs a VIdi. Watch your ISKies go bye bye as you get web ****** in the Jove-hole.
Its great, it's not the best ship hands down. It needs a small tweak, not a nerf.
Right, the TFI (pest I assume, there's two that start with T), which has 16.67% less gun DPS, less speed, less sig res, less drones, and a bit weaker cap is going to finish it faster.
The NM is only good in amarr space... the Mach can load EMP, fit an armor tank, and run in amarr space well (armor tank not even needed, but native resists do help), or it can load fusion, fit a shield tank, and run in minmatar space - or load PP/titanium sabots (though the range/tracking is rarely needed), and run in gallente/caldari space.
If we're talking the vargur, then the mach is less versatile in PvE
For PvP, the mach is vastly preferred over other BSs, though the vindi does have its role, as does a bhaal. A snake may present a tough target for a solo, but I think we'll all agree the NM is the worst of the pirate boats at PvP. Its not even that good at PvE, because its tank type (shields) is weak to its damage type - and NPC rats often have the same damage type weakness as damage type dealt. It tanks best against Angel/Minmatar NPC, but DPSs best against sansha/BR. For killing rats the fastest, you'd go against Sansha/BR, which often cap neut, and the NM is very vulnerable to such things
Teinyhr wrote:But what if the Machariel isn't OP, but the other pirate BS are underpowered? Yes, I agree, the mach could escape a nerf if the other pirate BSs get buffed appropriately - especially the NM and snake. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
521
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 11:54:00 -
[178] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote: For PvP, the mach is vastly preferred over other BSs, though the vindi does have its role, as does a bhaal.
Vastly prefered?
I've died to a mach exactly one time the entire time I've been playing and I was sniped out of a perch from over 200km in a ceptor.
If they are so prefered you sure as **** don't see them much.
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Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
535
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 12:27:00 -
[179] - Quote
Its still a shiny 1 bill hull that people want as a kill-mail, and thus gets your primaried.
But ask yourself... how many times did you die to a Nightmare? A snake? a Bhaal? a vindi?
I went to Eve uni's killboard (since I can search by ship type there)
32 pages of results when a mach was on the killmail
23 pages of results for a vindi
14 pages of results for a Bhaal
7 pages for a Rattlesnake
5 pages for a Nightmare
The machs are out there getting on a lot more killmails than any other ship type, as far as I can tell. The Vindi is doing a decent job, the Bhaal as well, but the Rattler and Mare... LOL |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
522
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 19:20:00 -
[180] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Its still a shiny 1 bill hull that people want as a kill-mail, and thus gets your primaried.
But ask yourself... how many times did you die to a Nightmare? A snake? a Bhaal? a vindi?
I went to Eve uni's killboard (since I can search by ship type there)
32 pages of results when a mach was on the killmail
23 pages of results for a vindi
14 pages of results for a Bhaal
7 pages for a Rattlesnake
5 pages for a Nightmare
The machs are out there getting on a lot more killmails than any other ship type, as far as I can tell. The Vindi is doing a decent job, the Bhaal as well, but the Rattler and Mare... LOL
Eve Uni?
Yes, that bastion of skilled high SP pilots with both the skills and the money run around in billion isk hulls......also since they tend to blob around low sec they are about the perfect target for pirates that DO have access to that sort of asset. In fact I sat there in a cov-ops and watched two SCUM (I think it was) go 2 on 15 cyna's one kitchensink drakes and canes and whatnot back before all of the rebalances and those to pirates killed 9-10 ships for the few survivors got smart and warped away.
.....not the best litmus. |
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