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Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 20:47:00 -
[1] - Quote
As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?
I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....
PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach. |
Xyrdiana
FACTS on EVE
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 21:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?
I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....
PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach.
Boo f*cking Hoo
The ship is overpowered and should be tuned down. NOT MUCH but still. |
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 21:28:00 -
[3] - Quote
why is it overpowered? |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 21:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
sounds like Rumor to me. |
Berendas
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
492
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 21:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 21:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
Xyrdiana wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?
I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....
PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach. Boo f*cking Hoo The ship is overpowered and should be tuned down. NOT MUCH but still.
Xyrd you big meany, I love you. Now give the man a reply worthy of your Machyness. |
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 21:57:00 -
[7] - Quote
Berendas wrote:The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships.
But why is it overpowered?
and didnt it just get nerfed with the TE nerf? |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 22:22:00 -
[8] - Quote
The machariel is fine as it is, if anything the other nano bs need a buff. |
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 22:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Marcus Walkuris wrote: P.S. To the original poster, for as long as I've played EvE the mach has been outrageously powerful on a pedestal all to its own. With a very wide range of PWN application throughout PvP and PvE alike. That said I don't own one and never flew one, although I've followed Xyrdiana around in one (with my gimpy drake).
I would guess they will tune the ships to be a little more excelling towards their pirate faction origins. And not one ship to rule them all.
ive seen a near max skilled mach unable to break the tank on a near max skilled passive shield tanked rattler. Also the vindi does more dps than the mach albeit at terrible ranges but then thats blasters for u.
I agree with wolf the mach is fine as it is...
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
848
|
Posted - 2013.09.08 22:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
Berendas wrote:The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships.
It will be the third nerf if they do. I can't understand where that "about time" came from. If they nerf the Machariel the t1 Dominix will be more powerful.
Eve, fly all 4 races or you're ******. Eve is Real |
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Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1181
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Posted - 2013.09.08 23:16:00 -
[11] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:
ive seen a near max skilled mach unable to break the tank on a near max skilled passive shield tanked rattler. Also the vindi does more dps than the mach albeit at terrible ranges but then thats blasters for u.
I agree with wolf the mach is fine as it is...
Pull the other one, it has bells on. You can make Rattlers with 4K DPS tank of passive regen. Any BS would be unable to break that -in fact, every so often the odd killmail pops up (usually pimped wormhole Rattlers) where the ship takes 2-4M damage before going under. It is not a reason for saying the machariel is fine and not in need of a nerf.
The Machariel does more damage than most other battleships. it is the fact it is exceptionally fast and has three weapon bonuses which make it OP. Its falloff bonus gives it unrivalled damage projection.
it is stronger in every way (shield, armour, hull) than the maelstrom, for example. It has one more slot to play with.
its sig is 30% lower, base.
its scan res is 50% higher, base.
its sensor strength is 20% higher.
It has a bigger drone bay.
its base velocity is nearly 80% faster than the Maelstrom.
Arguably you would think "well, i am paying a billion ISk I would want these kind of attributes!" but CCP does not set the price on the hull. Players do. The reason you pay a billion ISK is because of these attributes, which have no achilles heel.
That's not balanced. You do not have to give anything up, compromise in any way, suffer a drawback if you fly the Machariel. The meta of the game is damage projection, range and mobility (to avoid hard tackle), all of which the machariel does better at than most ships in the game, if not all.
So, yes. nerf inbound. YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
352
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 00:33:00 -
[12] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?
I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....
PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach.
One of the devs said that the mach was getting a nerf, although with all the ship updates it's hard to remember where. They were concerned that it was the go to battleship for everything because it had great speed, great agility, good damage, good damage projection, good defenses, and very generous fittings. They didn't want to nerf it much, but as it is there really isn't any reason to fly anything else once you're in a mach.
They also said they're going to nerf the cynable a little because they were a little too generous with it as well. |
Jon Matick
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 00:44:00 -
[13] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:The machariel is fine as it is, if anything the other nano bs need a buff. there ARE no other nano BSs, and there's the crux of the issue... the mach need either it's speed or damage/projection nerfed by probably as much as 25% to bring in anywhere NEAR in line with other 'nano' BSs. hell, even with a 25% speed nerf, it would STILL be the fastest BS anywhere. |
Slaved Lovechild
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 00:56:00 -
[14] - Quote
Got it it's way better than the Maelstrom. I don't think you'll get any argument to that. The Mach is also over a billion ISK. Of course it's better!... If it wasn't why would anyone pay that. By some posters logic the navy version of the Hurricane is OP. How about T3 cruisers...
Anyways this is all moot because it's just rumor till it's announced by CCP. The Mach was already nerfed and I don't see any major nerf happening. |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
8
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
I just like the way that all the people that have never flown a mach claim that it is OP and not having the slightest clue that it is not just a billion isk Hull, it is a billion isk hull that is often fit with billions of isk in mods.
My Mach is not Overpowered, My Wallet is.
You guys scream for years "Caldari, Caldari, Caldari" the day you realize Caldari ships are not what you wanted them to be all those years, you want everything else nerfed. |
Literally Space Moses
Perkone Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Now imagine if you were training for a supercarrier or titan. The tears when those get nerfed are going to be exquisite. |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
204
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
Jon Matick wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:The machariel is fine as it is, if anything the other nano bs need a buff. there ARE no other nano BSs, and there's the crux of the issue... the mach need either it's speed or damage/projection nerfed by probably as much as 25% to bring in anywhere NEAR in line with other 'nano' BSs. hell, even with a 25% speed nerf, it would STILL be the fastest BS anywhere.
There are a few, nano phoon is very much a thing, and nano pest/fleet pest work quite well too. You can also fly a kiting raven/scorpion navy/golem. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
848
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:
ive seen a near max skilled mach unable to break the tank on a near max skilled passive shield tanked rattler. Also the vindi does more dps than the mach albeit at terrible ranges but then thats blasters for u.
I agree with wolf the mach is fine as it is...
Pull the other one, it has bells on. You can make Rattlers with 4K DPS tank of passive regen. Any BS would be unable to break that -in fact, every so often the odd killmail pops up (usually pimped wormhole Rattlers) where the ship takes 2-4M damage before going under. It is not a reason for saying the machariel is fine and not in need of a nerf. The Machariel does more damage than most other battleships. it is the fact it is exceptionally fast and has three weapon bonuses which make it OP. Its falloff bonus gives it unrivalled damage projection. it is stronger in every way (shield, armour, hull) than the maelstrom, for example. It has one more slot to play with. its sig is 30% lower, base. its scan res is 50% higher, base. its sensor strength is 20% higher. It has a bigger drone bay. its base velocity is nearly 80% faster than the Maelstrom. Arguably you would think "well, i am paying a billion ISk I would want these kind of attributes!" but CCP does not set the price on the hull. Players do. The reason you pay a billion ISK is because of these attributes, which have no achilles heel. That's not balanced. You do not have to give anything up, compromise in any way, suffer a drawback if you fly the Machariel. The meta of the game is damage projection, range and mobility (to avoid hard tackle), all of which the machariel does better at than most ships in the game, if not all. So, yes. nerf inbound.
You are comparing a Pirate faction ship with a t1 ship and saying its not balanced. They aren't supposed to be. Eve is Real |
Ersahi Kir
The Eminence Front SpaceMonkey's Alliance
352
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 01:55:00 -
[19] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
- Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
Source
The ship can brawl way too well considering that it has the lowest mass of all battleships, has the second highest base speed (panther beats it at level 5), and has the second most number of effective turrets for any battleship (behind fleet typhoon). It's technically fifth on agility for all battleships, but that's only because the black ops ships have extremely low agility modifiers to compensate for their outrageously high mass. |
Alduin666 Shikkoken
MIS Auxiliaries Kadeshians
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 02:19:00 -
[20] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Merin Ryskin wrote:The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better. Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.
- Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.
- Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.
- Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.
- Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.
- Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.
Found a post concerning the Machariel (and other pirate faction) nerfs. Your welcome
Edit: Gah sorry the guy above me beat me too it. Oh well. Honor is a fools prize. Glory is of no use to the dead.
Be a man! Post with your main! |
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Jon Matick
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 03:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Jon Matick wrote:W0lf Crendraven wrote:The machariel is fine as it is, if anything the other nano bs need a buff. there ARE no other nano BSs, and there's the crux of the issue... the mach need either it's speed or damage/projection nerfed by probably as much as 25% to bring in anywhere NEAR in line with other 'nano' BSs. hell, even with a 25% speed nerf, it would STILL be the fastest BS anywhere. There are a few, nano phoon is very much a thing, and nano pest/fleet pest work quite well too. You can also fly a kiting raven/scorpion navy/golem. youre...joking right? Ok, so the other ships you list can probably kite armour buffer BSs, but nothing else.
a mach can hit 2k/s+ and hence can kite BCs and a lot of cruisers, which is beyond ridiculous. the only other BS i can think of that can be semi effectively flown nano is the tempest but it isnt even in the same genre of game, let alone league, as a mach. |
Mathias Orsen
Sacred Templars Fatal Ascension
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 03:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
Quote: a mach can hit 2k/s+ and hence can kite BCs and a lot of cruisers, which is beyond ridiculous. the only other BS i can think of that can be semi effectively flown nano is the tempest but it isnt even in the same genre of game, let alone league, as a mach.
Nice "Big Fish" story.
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Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 07:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:
ive seen a near max skilled mach unable to break the tank on a near max skilled passive shield tanked rattler. Also the vindi does more dps than the mach albeit at terrible ranges but then thats blasters for u.
I agree with wolf the mach is fine as it is...
Pull the other one, it has bells on. You can make Rattlers with 4K DPS tank of passive regen. Any BS would be unable to break that -in fact, every so often the odd killmail pops up (usually pimped wormhole Rattlers) where the ship takes 2-4M damage before going under. It is not a reason for saying the machariel is fine and not in need of a nerf. The Machariel does more damage than most other battleships. it is the fact it is exceptionally fast and has three weapon bonuses which make it OP. Its falloff bonus gives it unrivalled damage projection. it is stronger in every way (shield, armour, hull) than the maelstrom, for example. It has one more slot to play with. its sig is 30% lower, base. its scan res is 50% higher, base. its sensor strength is 20% higher. It has a bigger drone bay. its base velocity is nearly 80% faster than the Maelstrom. Arguably you would think "well, i am paying a billion ISk I would want these kind of attributes!" but CCP does not set the price on the hull. Players do. The reason you pay a billion ISK is because of these attributes, which have no achilles heel. That's not balanced. You do not have to give anything up, compromise in any way, suffer a drawback if you fly the Machariel. The meta of the game is damage projection, range and mobility (to avoid hard tackle), all of which the machariel does better at than most ships in the game, if not all. So, yes. nerf inbound.
That, and I am not even screaming nerf but that is a good explanation. I have to add to that, being that when people like to point at the rattlesnake they ignore the fact it is stationary due to sentries. But to top it off it can't dictate range because it falls into the lowest speed bracket 91m/s 2 more then the slowest BS, on top of the fact it is stationary to begin with and uses missiles thus not increasing damage application by kiting. Its dreadful agility doesn't even allow it to get a sexy orbit around your sentries for tanking purposes.
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Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
268
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 08:15:00 -
[24] - Quote
Marcus Walkuris wrote:
That, and I am not even screaming nerf but that is a good explanation. I have to add to that, being that when people like to point at the rattlesnake they ignore the fact it is stationary due to sentries. But to top it off it can't dictate range because it falls into the lowest speed bracket 91m/s 2 more then the slowest BS, on top of the fact it is stationary to begin with and uses missiles thus not increasing damage application by kiting. Its dreadful agility doesn't even allow it to get a sexy orbit around your sentries for tanking purposes.
And, despite being stationary in most situations, its horrible drone control range doesn't allow it to snipe AT ALL. You need PERFECT skills, two utility highs and possibly one or two weird rigging choices in order to shoot at -+110Km? with its longest reaching drones.
Because you cannot shoot with Sentries beyond your drone control range, no matter what is the optimal + falloff of your drones, or your targeting range.
If you cram all the highs with drone link augmentors, you have to give up the missiles, and then it falls way beyond the new Dominix in applied DPS (tracking, duh).
The Machariel is amazing for EVERYTHING. Great tank, great scan res, great reach, great DPS, best agility and speed of its class, makes for a better alpha sniper than a Tempest, makes for a wonderful brawler with selectable damage, etc etc.
No, the tracking enhancer nerf was NOT a Machariel nerf. The Machariel, as the Cynabal, deserve a chop on the nerfing block. I'd hit them where it hurts: speed and agility. Yes, I have Gallente and Minmatar BS V, and T2 Large autocannons and arties. No, I'm not in favor of nerfing it "because I can't fly it".
It's just too damn good at EVERYTHING, too versatile, too obvious a choice for most situations where a BS might be needed, be it PvP or PvE.
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Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
224
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 08:35:00 -
[25] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Marcus Walkuris wrote: P.S. To the original poster, for as long as I've played EvE the mach has been outrageously powerful on a pedestal all to its own. With a very wide range of PWN application throughout PvP and PvE alike. That said I don't own one and never flew one, although I've followed Xyrdiana around in one (with my gimpy drake).
I would guess they will tune the ships to be a little more excelling towards their pirate faction origins. And not one ship to rule them all. ive seen a near max skilled mach unable to break the tank on a near max skilled passive shield tanked rattler. Also the vindi does more dps than the mach albeit at terrible ranges but then thats blasters for u. I agree with wolf the mach is fine as it is... Yeah, but if the Rattlesnake is so great why does it cost less than half as much as a Mach? It's equally as difficult to obtain...
Slaved Lovechild wrote:Got it it's way better than the Maelstrom. I don't think you'll get any argument to that. The Mach is also over a billion ISK. Of course it's better!... If it wasn't why would anyone pay that. By some posters logic the navy version of the Hurricane is OP. How about T3 cruisers...
Anyways this is all moot because it's just rumor till it's announced by CCP. The Mach was already nerfed and I don't see any major nerf happening. "Hurhurhurhurhur, it's over a billion ISK therefore it should be OP."
It's over a billion isk because it's OP. Have you looked at the Rattlesnake? You get the Rattler the same way you get the Mach, by grinding faction missions with a pirate faction. They cost the same to make (in theory). So why does the Rattler, which is pretty much exactly on par with the Mach for all intents and purposes, cost less than half as much?
Oh right, because CCP doesn't directly control the market. The players have decided a Mach should cost that much because of how effective it is. Not the other way around.
I'm not saying it's ridiculously overpowered and needs to be nerfed into the ground. Just saying that cost is hardly an argument as the cost will be set by the players to match the supply and demand. Machs are just that good, therefore the demand is much higher. |
Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
243
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 08:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Darius Brinn wrote:Marcus Walkuris wrote:
That, and I am not even screaming nerf but that is a good explanation. I have to add to that, being that when people like to point at the rattlesnake they ignore the fact it is stationary due to sentries. But to top it off it can't dictate range because it falls into the lowest speed bracket 91m/s 2 more then the slowest BS, on top of the fact it is stationary to begin with and uses missiles thus not increasing damage application by kiting. Its dreadful agility doesn't even allow it to get a sexy orbit around your sentries for tanking purposes.
And, despite being stationary in most situations, its horrible drone control range doesn't allow it to snipe AT ALL. You need PERFECT skills, two utility highs and possibly one or two weird rigging choices in order to shoot at -+110Km? with its longest reaching drones. Because you cannot shoot with Sentries beyond your drone control range, no matter what is the optimal + falloff of your drones, or your targeting range. If you cram all the highs with drone link augmentors, you have to give up the missiles, and then it falls way beyond the new Dominix in applied DPS (tracking, duh).
Its got the same control range as a dominix. Dominix and rattlesnake will shoot 121km with 2 DLAs and a rig. Rattlesnake gives up 2 utilty highs to do so, the dominix gives up 2 turrets. Also the rattlesnake is a brick, which is a reasonable explanation for its movement speed, and balanced.
If you want a fast battleship, please visit your local angel mission agent and test drive a mach today. Also if you need your rattlesnake 100km away in no more than 12 seconds, there is a module for that.
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Tauranon
Weeesearch Greater Western Co-Prosperity Sphere
243
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 08:49:00 -
[27] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Marcus Walkuris wrote: P.S. To the original poster, for as long as I've played EvE the mach has been outrageously powerful on a pedestal all to its own. With a very wide range of PWN application throughout PvP and PvE alike. That said I don't own one and never flew one, although I've followed Xyrdiana around in one (with my gimpy drake).
I would guess they will tune the ships to be a little more excelling towards their pirate faction origins. And not one ship to rule them all. ive seen a near max skilled mach unable to break the tank on a near max skilled passive shield tanked rattler. Also the vindi does more dps than the mach albeit at terrible ranges but then thats blasters for u. I agree with wolf the mach is fine as it is... Yeah, but if the Rattlesnake is so great why does it cost less than half as much as a Mach? It's equally as difficult to obtain... Slaved Lovechild wrote:Got it it's way better than the Maelstrom. I don't think you'll get any argument to that. The Mach is also over a billion ISK. Of course it's better!... If it wasn't why would anyone pay that. By some posters logic the navy version of the Hurricane is OP. How about T3 cruisers...
Anyways this is all moot because it's just rumor till it's announced by CCP. The Mach was already nerfed and I don't see any major nerf happening. "Hurhurhurhurhur, it's over a billion ISK therefore it should be OP." It's over a billion isk because it's OP. Have you looked at the Rattlesnake? You get the Rattler the same way you get the Mach, by grinding faction missions with a pirate faction. They cost the same to make (in theory). So why does the Rattler, which is pretty much exactly on par with the Mach for all intents and purposes, cost less than half as much?
They also drop, and the price of rattlesnake bpc's is plainly in drop territory, not LP territory. The big price difference probably either says there is more gurista space, or gurista space has been more consistently farmed.
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Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 09:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:
ive seen a near max skilled mach unable to break the tank on a near max skilled passive shield tanked rattler. Also the vindi does more dps than the mach albeit at terrible ranges but then thats blasters for u.
I agree with wolf the mach is fine as it is...
Pull the other one, it has bells on. You can make Rattlers with 4K DPS tank of passive regen. Any BS would be unable to break that -in fact, every so often the odd killmail pops up (usually pimped wormhole Rattlers) where the ship takes 2-4M damage before going under. It is not a reason for saying the machariel is fine and not in need of a nerf. The Machariel does more damage than most other battleships. it is the fact it is exceptionally fast and has three weapon bonuses which make it OP. Its falloff bonus gives it unrivalled damage projection. it is stronger in every way (shield, armour, hull) than the maelstrom, for example. It has one more slot to play with. its sig is 30% lower, base. its scan res is 50% higher, base. its sensor strength is 20% higher. It has a bigger drone bay. its base velocity is nearly 80% faster than the Maelstrom. Arguably you would think "well, i am paying a billion ISk I would want these kind of attributes!" but CCP does not set the price on the hull. Players do. The reason you pay a billion ISK is because of these attributes, which have no achilles heel. That's not balanced. You do not have to give anything up, compromise in any way, suffer a drawback if you fly the Machariel. The meta of the game is damage projection, range and mobility (to avoid hard tackle), all of which the machariel does better at than most ships in the game, if not all. So, yes. nerf inbound.
As someone else has said dont compare a pirate bs to a t1 bs please. thats like comparing an assault frig to a t1 frig... The mach is an expensive ship not just to buy but to fit as well. It should be worth the isk you pay. If we're to continue comparisons please compare it to the other pirate bs.
And how does it get better shielding than a maelstrom? maybe base buffer shielding i dk i cant rememebr the numbers. but the maelstroms shield boost bonus gives it an awesome tank at level 5. Off the top of my head the maelstrom does 1k dps and has 1.2k dps active tank at level 5 skills with a crystal set of implants.... |
Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
475
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Posted - 2013.09.09 09:28:00 -
[29] - Quote
hah so much qq for an imbalanced op ship time to end the mach era |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
176
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 09:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:They also drop, and the price of rattlesnake bpc's is plainly in drop territory, not LP territory. The big price difference probably either says there is more gurista space, or gurista space has been more consistently farmed.
Or possibly the fact that, when CCP "Accidentally the loot tables", the Cynabal BPO was well distributed (and bragged about on the forums) is keeping the price of the Mach (as an associated vessel) artificially surpressed... Perhaps its price point would otherwise be significantly higher... |
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Marc Callan
Interstellar Steel Templis Dragonaors
283
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 09:44:00 -
[31] - Quote
When you're getting into pirate battleships, I get the sense that the demand is for more efficient killing machines - the Rattlesnake's raw survivability is second to none, but its DPS plateaus quite a bit lower than the Mach, the Nightmare, or the Vindicator. Those ships' hull bonuses are pretty much pure gank, while the Rattlesnake has a resist bonus, a drone bonus that matches only one of the two Dominix drone bonuses, and a missile range bonus that's pretty much useless. It's got its uses - I've seen them used as anchors in incursions - but it's not as reliable a moneymaker as the Mach or the Nightmare, and not nearly as terrifying on the field as a Vindicator or a Bhaalgorn. "Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred..." - Niccolo Machiavelli-á |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:
Its got the same control range as a dominix. Dominix and rattlesnake will shoot 121km with 2 DLAs and a rig. Rattlesnake gives up 2 utilty highs to do so, the dominix gives up 2 turrets. Also the rattlesnake is a brick, which is a reasonable explanation for its movement speed, and balanced.
If you want a fast battleship, please visit your local angel mission agent and test drive a mach today. Also if you need your rattlesnake 100km away in no more than 12 seconds, there is a module for that.
There is a failure to understand mechanics. The snake does not have the range the dominix has drone-wise. What this means is it does not gain near immunity to E-war and damage like the dominix does due to severely outranging everything far beyond any gunnery boat. This in turn means you will rely on your tank more and deal with the E-war more commonly, it does not have nearly the snipe a dominix does. Do not claim they have the same range since a dominix essentially has close to 2 faction tracking modules as a ship bonus, which in turn can be multiplied by said tracking modules. A rattlesnakes attributes really detract from its package as it isn't merely ship bonus vs ship bonus. The rattle imho is very powerful but has some real issues, MJD dependance being one of the major ones. A MJD in PvE is most commonly a way for low skilled players to circumvent a lack in core/support skills, it slows you down immensely since you have to use 6 minutes for one mission pocket as a missioner and an added 3 minutes after if the pocket too hot to tank upon entry, which coincidently is the most common reason to fit a MJD. As a travel tool a MJD is the worst of all, since it always travels 100KM with a dreadful cooldown. And please don't quote 121km control based off of the fact control range rigs are currently bugged not to be stacking penalized.
But my whole point to begin with was to not compare dominix mach rattle, but since people did compare the rattlesnake in a favorable light to the machariel I had to call bullshit on that.
Since it is mentioned though. Dominix is currently the best PvE sniper platform. The rattlesnake is a strong missionboat, but clunky and much more situational.(I have many adapated fits saved whereas a buddy of mine has a one fit all DPS tanking machariel sporting 1100 mobile dps with all tech2 except for 3 modules ending at about 400mill in fitting cost (the usual republic afterburner, faction shield booster, just to dispel the must officer fit myths although implants are another story). Machariel can handle pretty much anything thrown at it, all ships struggle with large gurrista missions Machs too but still do much better then most. (rattlers do okay vs gurristas if theyre active tanked only, or passive but with severe dps gimping fits). A rattler will severely gimp dps or mobility detracting from its effectiveness outside and inside the hangar (refitting), and to top it off a passive tanked rattler is NOT an active tanked one and no one will swap rigs for it, there is no passive tanked 1100 dps rattlesnake with a 10mill EHP tank. The dominix is an excellent PvE sniper platform and I would comfortably call it the best standard BS for PvE and will outdo a rattlesnake on some missions maybe even a mach I have not tested them on gurristas enough but with the proper tanking skills I could see it do well on gurristas with their 90km engagement range both E-war and missiles. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1417
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:22:00 -
[33] - Quote
Mathias Orsen wrote:I just like the way that all the people that have never flown a mach claim that it is OP and not having the slightest clue that it is not just a billion isk Hull, it is a billion isk hull that is often fit with billions of isk in mods.
My Mach is not Overpowered, My Wallet is.
you do realize that there are other 1bil pirate battleships and even among them the mach is king? while its dps and projection are good but not exceptional, its mobility is just over the top and needs to be nerfed by at least 20% or so to get the ship in line.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1417
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 11:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote: As someone else has said dont compare a pirate bs to a t1 bs please. thats like comparing an assault frig to a t1 frig... The mach is an expensive ship not just to buy but to fit as well. It should be worth the isk you pay. If we're to continue comparisons please compare it to the other pirate bs.
well, how about we compare it to the nightmare then? let's see... according to my face, the mach has: - better paper dps - damage type selection - cap independant weapons - bigger drone bay and bandwidth - a LOT more speed - a LOT more agility - smaller signature - higher scan resolution
pretty much the only advantages of the nightmare are cheaper ammo and better damage projection. incidentally, these two factors are important enough to make the nightmare a competitor in lvl4 missions (albeit only in amarr space), but anywhere else the mach just beats it hands down.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1186
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:
As someone else has said dont compare a pirate bs to a t1 bs please. thats like comparing an assault frig to a t1 frig... The mach is an expensive ship not just to buy but to fit as well. It should be worth the isk you pay. If we're to continue comparisons please compare it to the other pirate bs.
And how does it get better shielding than a maelstrom? maybe base buffer shielding i dk i cant rememebr the numbers. but the maelstroms shield boost bonus gives it an awesome tank at level 5. Off the top of my head the maelstrom does 1k dps and has 1.2k dps active tank at level 5 skills with a crystal set of implants....
Poppycock.
i compared the Machariel with the Maelstrom because the maelstrom is the most effective Minmatar turret battleship now the Phoon is solely a missile boat now. I was not comparing it with the Vargur, which can (roughly) compete with a machariel in some missions.
True, the Maelstrom gets more active rep. This is fine if you solely look at the ability of a ship to tank mission rooms like a derp, having aggroed too many things. The Machariel, with its lower base sig, greater speed and greater DPS does not need such a strong tank. it sheds damage via movement, DPSs down the enemy BS quicker (negating the need of a permatank) and will be out of range of the room aggro faster.
In PVP, buffer is important to avoid, eg, being alpha'd. With an XLASB your Maelstrom relies on the enemies throwing themselves fruitlessly at it and tanking everything. The Machariel relies on everything chasing it and dying. Like I said before, mobility is king, and I doubt anyone who flies a Machariel really cares it does not have a shield boost bonus. A cheap deadspace rep or an ASB and you get plenty of shield HP while flying around the place at 2km/s, which is faster than a cruiser on MWD. Which is just plain ridiculous.
Also, thanks for quoting Crystals for the Maelstrom's tank. Lets throw Crystals on a Mach, or better yet, slaves and go 2.4km/s and outrun even Vagabonds.
You are on the wrong side of history here; the Macha needs a nerfbat, as does the Cynabal. It will happen, and all your logic and all the king's Men won't matter for diddly squat. YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:08:00 -
[36] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote: As someone else has said dont compare a pirate bs to a t1 bs please. thats like comparing an assault frig to a t1 frig... The mach is an expensive ship not just to buy but to fit as well. It should be worth the isk you pay. If we're to continue comparisons please compare it to the other pirate bs.
well, how about we compare it to the nightmare then? let's see... according to my face, the mach has: - better paper dps - damage type selection - cap independant weapons - bigger drone bay and bandwidth - a LOT more speed - a LOT more agility - smaller signature - higher scan resolution pretty much the only advantages of the nightmare are cheaper ammo and better damage projection. incidentally, these two factors are important enough to make the nightmare a competitor in lvl4 missions (albeit only in amarr space), but anywhere else the mach just beats it hands down.
and the nightmare has:
more cpu more cap higher targeting range more sensor strength more shields instantaneous ammo swap/reload
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Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1418
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 12:37:00 -
[37] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote: and the nightmare has:
more cpu more cap higher targeting range more sensor strength more shields instantaneous ammo swap/reload
really? you're gonna bring this weaksauce? well fine: - more cpu is irrelevant as long as you have enough cpu for a decent fit. otherwise i may as well say "the mach has more powergrid hurrdurr". - the slightly better cap is negated completely by the weapons and the fact that you have to fit an mwd to go faster than 300ish m/s - two more sensor strength. 28 vs 26.if that is not a winning argument i don't know what is. - higher raw shield HP is only relevant in PVP buffer fits. ironically, the nightmare is a terrible pvp ship compared to the mach so in the end it has 0 relevance. - instant ammo swap is an advantage but i would take different damage types over different ranges any day.
bottom line, no matter how much space lawyering you try and do, the fact remains: the mach outdoes its siblings by a significant margin. bringing it in line will be better for the game and any unbiased player will admit it.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
403
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:03:00 -
[38] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Mathias Orsen wrote:I just like the way that all the people that have never flown a mach claim that it is OP and not having the slightest clue that it is not just a billion isk Hull, it is a billion isk hull that is often fit with billions of isk in mods.
My Mach is not Overpowered, My Wallet is.
you do realize that there are other 1bil pirate battleships and even among them the mach is king? while its dps and projection are good but not exceptional, its mobility is just over the top and needs to be nerfed by at least 20% or so to get the ship in line.
Frankly, I'd go the other way around - leave Mach's mobility unparalleled (it's "the minmatar thing"), but drop its falloff bonus for something else. The result would be a very fast, highly agile and somewhat squishy short range ship, much as they're used by Angels.
Then add the falloff bonus to Fleet Tempest and you have a winner combo :D |
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:07:00 -
[39] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote: and the nightmare has:
more cpu more cap higher targeting range more sensor strength more shields instantaneous ammo swap/reload
really? you're gonna bring this weaksauce? well fine: - more cpu is irrelevant as long as you have enough cpu for a decent fit. otherwise i may as well say "the mach has more powergrid hurrdurr". - the slightly better cap is negated completely by the weapons and the fact that you have to fit an mwd to go faster than 300ish m/s - two more sensor strength. 28 vs 26.if that is not a winning argument i don't know what is. - higher raw shield HP is only relevant in PVP buffer fits. ironically, the nightmare is a terrible pvp ship compared to the mach so in the end it has 0 relevance. - instant ammo swap is an advantage but i would take different damage types over different ranges any day. bottom line, no matter how much space lawyering you try and do, the fact remains: the mach outdoes its siblings by a significant margin. bringing it in line will be better for the game and any unbiased player will admit it.
Fine you make a good point. but please leave the mach as it is. Maybe its the other pirate bs that need a buff...
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Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War Amarr Empire
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:07:00 -
[40] - Quote
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Mathias Orsen wrote:I just like the way that all the people that have never flown a mach claim that it is OP and not having the slightest clue that it is not just a billion isk Hull, it is a billion isk hull that is often fit with billions of isk in mods.
My Mach is not Overpowered, My Wallet is.
you do realize that there are other 1bil pirate battleships and even among them the mach is king? while its dps and projection are good but not exceptional, its mobility is just over the top and needs to be nerfed by at least 20% or so to get the ship in line. Frankly, I'd go the other way around - leave Mach's mobility unparalleled (it's "the minmatar thing"), but drop its falloff bonus for something else. The result would be a very fast, highly agile and somewhat squishy short range ship, much as they're used by Angels. Then add the falloff bonus to Fleet Tempest and you have a winner combo :D
pls god no
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Plug in Baby
Crouching Woman Hidden Cucumber
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:21:00 -
[41] - Quote
Can we stop pretending that the Machs 1bn price tag is a balancing point, if people can easily field a full fleet of Machs, they are hardly 'rare'. Faction or pirate BS are the new standard where a few years ago it would be T1 BS. MUDflation.
The mach is clearly overpowered, not because it is the best armor PVP BS, but because it is the best PVP AHAC and has been for a long time. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
668
|
Posted - 2013.09.09 13:58:00 -
[42] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Daniel Plain wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote: and the nightmare has:
more cpu more cap higher targeting range more sensor strength more shields instantaneous ammo swap/reload
really? you're gonna bring this weaksauce? well fine: - more cpu is irrelevant as long as you have enough cpu for a decent fit. otherwise i may as well say "the mach has more powergrid hurrdurr". - the slightly better cap is negated completely by the weapons and the fact that you have to fit an mwd to go faster than 300ish m/s - two more sensor strength. 28 vs 26.if that is not a winning argument i don't know what is. - higher raw shield HP is only relevant in PVP buffer fits. ironically, the nightmare is a terrible pvp ship compared to the mach so in the end it has 0 relevance. - instant ammo swap is an advantage but i would take different damage types over different ranges any day. bottom line, no matter how much space lawyering you try and do, the fact remains: the mach outdoes its siblings by a significant margin. bringing it in line will be better for the game and any unbiased player will admit it. Fine you make a good point. but please leave the mach as it is. Maybe its the other pirate bs that need a buff...
Don't nerf my PWNMOBILE bro!
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Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
270
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 09:12:00 -
[43] - Quote
Tauranon wrote:
Its got the same control range as a dominix. Dominix and rattlesnake will shoot 121km with 2 DLAs and a rig. Rattlesnake gives up 2 utilty highs to do so, the dominix gives up 2 turrets. Also the rattlesnake is a brick, which is a reasonable explanation for its movement speed, and balanced.
LOL no, it doesn't have the same drone control range. Because, you know, the Dominix applies WONDERFUL drone DPS without fitting turrets or missiles, so the highs can be shamelessly full of DLAs for proper sniping, and you still get the advantages of using ALL of the hulls bonuses.
The Rattlesnake, however, relies on its launchers. It needs the launchers or it will sport ANEMIC DPS with MUCH WORSE REAL APPLICATION than the Dominix. So, it's basically restricted to 2 x T2 DLAs.
Even more weird is the fact that a Rattlesnake with T2 Cruises can launch at...200Km, IIRC? It's like allowing a Machariel to attack with its secondary weapon system at 200Km (drones), while forcing it to FOREGO said weapon system if it wanted to shoot at 150Km with Artillery. Absurd, isn't it?
Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix.
Tauranon wrote:If you want a fast battleship, please visit your local angel mission agent and test drive a mach today. Also if you need your rattlesnake 100km away in no more than 12 seconds, there is a module for that.
Yeah. So the Rattlesnake can't run (no problems with that) like the Mach, can't GTFO like the Mach (who can?), can't get into Incursions like the Mach (well, OK), can't snipe in PvP like the Mach (fine), can't clear missions as fast as the Mach (ummm...yes)...
What can the Rattlesnake do better than the Mach? Stay put and take it IF properly fit for max brick?
Yeah. I can't understand at all why the Rattlesnake costs less than half |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
11530
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 09:12:00 -
[44] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?
I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....
PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach.
lolnop
1 Kings 12:11
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Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 10:01:00 -
[45] - Quote
Darius Brinn wrote:Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix.
When you're arguing at such extreme ranges to make a point...the argument is thin.
A properly fitted 'snake will murder a Dominix in damage application at any reasonable range whilst tanking FAR better than said domi could ever dream of.
The rattler costs half as much for two reasons: 1) high skill requirement to make it 'work' and 2) People are obsessed about passive tanking it, it's real potential lies in an active tank and actually playing the ship as opposed to deploying drones and snoozing.
With a couple of 5% implants (cant be bothered reconfiguring, meh) it can spit out 1050-1240 DPS selectable damage out to its lock range whilst sporting a very serious tank indeed.
Yeah, totally sucks |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:32:00 -
[46] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Darius Brinn wrote:Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix. When you're arguing at such extreme ranges to make a point...the argument is thin. A properly fitted 'snake will murder a Dominix in damage application at any reasonable range whilst tanking FAR better than said domi could ever dream of. The rattler costs half as much for two reasons: 1) high skill requirement to make it 'work' and 2) People are obsessed about passive tanking it, it's real potential lies in an active tank and actually playing the ship as opposed to deploying drones and snoozing. With a couple of 5% implants (cant be bothered reconfiguring, meh) it can spit out 1050-1240 DPS selectable damage out to its lock range whilst sporting a very serious tank indeed. Yeah, totally sucks
Quick nerf it into the ground!!!
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To mare
Advanced Technology
249
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:40:00 -
[47] - Quote
IF they have to nerf the thing i hope they remove the 7th turret, and leave all the rest (speed agi) the same, i know mission runners wont like this but at least it would keep the ship viable for pvp |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:45:00 -
[48] - Quote
Well, the Mach is anything up to 10x faster, has equal or higher DPS in a meaningful way and has just about as mean a tank with some pimpage.
That's the thing about the Mach, you're never really in a trade off position with it, it just does it all - and it of the things it does, it's ranging from well above average to king of the hill.
Frankly I just take exception to claims he rattler sucks - but by all means, buff it |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
29
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:49:00 -
[49] - Quote
the mach doesnt have as good a tank as the rattler are you kidding me? |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 11:59:00 -
[50] - Quote
Not a brick rattler no, but an active one, it's rather close. And guess what a brick rattler doesnt have the DPS. Neither breed of rattler has the speed or the sig either. |
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Darius Brinn
Iberians Iberians.
270
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 12:20:00 -
[51] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Darius Brinn wrote:Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix. When you're arguing at such extreme ranges to make a point...the argument is thin. A properly fitted 'snake will murder a Dominix in damage application at any reasonable range whilst tanking FAR better than said domi could ever dream of. The rattler costs half as much for two reasons: 1) high skill requirement to make it 'work' and 2) People are obsessed about passive tanking it, it's real potential lies in an active tank and actually playing the ship as opposed to deploying drones and snoozing. With a couple of 5% implants (cant be bothered reconfiguring, meh) it can spit out 1050-1240 DPS selectable damage out to its lock range whilst sporting a very serious tank indeed. Yeah, totally sucks
I use my Rattlesnake with an ACTIVE tank, thank you very much, and I am very aware of what it can spit out.
The damage is not fully selectable. You can't bring 4 different sets of Sentries at all. Selectable damage for unbonused launchers hardly counts as "selectable damage" like we mean it when we are discussing all things Machariel.
It cannot be configured to snipe effectively, and you are restricted to barely beyond 110Km or your DPS will drop. This is a problem not shared by the Dominix.
I also would love to see what would you call a "reasonable" range. If I use a Rattlesnake in PvE, with a MJD, and I warp 150Kms away from red crosses, I would love not being forced to slowboat (or use double propulsion) 35 or 40Kms until I can shoot.
In the same situation, the Dominix user with his highs full of DLAs and his DPS intact would have been shooting for minutes.
Also, I frankly don't give a damn if they nerf the Machariel or not. Don't get me wrong. I am extremely well trained for both the Rattlesnake and the Machariel (like, everything at V except Cruise/Torpedo/Large arties/Large autocannon specializations...for the moment) and I can put them both to good use in a whim. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:20:00 -
[52] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Darius Brinn wrote:Well, it's what happens to the Rattlesnake: want to reach 150Km with your longest reaching drones? No launchers for you. Less paper DPS and less REAL, APPLIED DPS than the Dominix. When you're arguing at such extreme ranges to make a point...the argument is thin. A properly fitted 'snake will murder a Dominix in damage application at any reasonable range whilst tanking FAR better than said domi could ever dream of. The rattler costs half as much for two reasons: 1) high skill requirement to make it 'work' and 2) People are obsessed about passive tanking it, it's real potential lies in an active tank and actually playing the ship as opposed to deploying drones and snoozing. With a couple of 5% implants (cant be bothered reconfiguring, meh) it can spit out 1050-1240 DPS selectable damage out to its lock range whilst sporting a very serious tank indeed. Yeah, totally sucks
I don't like saying the rattler sucks either. But as a sentry platform it is unable to utilize any realistic speed tank, or burn to gates at any reasonable pace. The fact it can get 0 improved damage application through kiting really makes it absurd for it to be in the lowest speed/agility bracket with 4 missile launchers no less. You do neglect to mention that a split in modules for drones and any kind of weapon-system (missiles in this case) are basically still in the era of split weapon systems when it comes to fitting slot consumption. If the rattlesnake were to really be like what its current incarnation is supposed to be it will gain a bonus to missile/drone tracking mechanics and a substantial speed/agility increase just so it can effectively fit an AB without weak sauce dps Not to mention it takes way too much rigging to make 4 launchers a substantial part of dps.
I wish they would just circumvent many of these issues by allowing sentries to be retrieved but not repositioned, or automatically reeled in with a tractor or cable after a certain distance. Sentries being stationary is a fine mechanic but forcing the ship to do the same is imho simply a negative in all regards. Maybe something outrageous like functioning heavy drones would help it come back to its original intention. Until then lets not quote the rattlers very pleasant damage application too much, since all that is wiped away through being the most expensive slug in EvE with near to 0 mobility really destroying your time/isk. This analyses probably wouldn't ring true too hard if it wasn't for everything being buffed like hell in the Rattlers respective category (read, RNI and Dominix, drones&missiles) while the rattler stands still in all regards. In the end your rattler will costs you vastly more SP and micromanagement then it will reward you for, ending up as the next step after maxing your RNI skills with no real incentive to do so except for some hyper-specialized role. The rattlesnake is not well understood unless you fly it, most of the people that comment on it do not fly it as often demonstrated in misinformed posts. Most people hear from others that like flying the rattler and go from there, but most people will like rattlers if they fly them not worship them like Mach pilots. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:24:00 -
[53] - Quote
Why...would you not bring the right sentries to the party when it's PvE?
Moreover, why would you MJD....that's a novelty trick if your tank isnt up to it.
Clearly we just do different things. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 13:27:00 -
[54] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Why...would you not bring the right sentries to the party when it's PvE?
Moreover, why would you MJD....that's a novelty trick if your tank isnt up to it.
Clearly we just do different things.
I would love to hear how you deal with a gate 33-50 km out then with a sentry fit. School me please. No sarcasm intended, agreed on MJD except that an active fit makes you need one for larger missions due to being stationary. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:20:00 -
[55] - Quote
I use a different boat. I'm not married to a single hull. For me the mobility thing isnt a factor because....different hulls.
Usually where there is travel time I'll fire up a CNR, maybe a TFI if its not that far.
Like I said, we just play differently |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
498
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:36:00 -
[56] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Not a brick rattler no, but an active one, it's rather close. And guess what a brick rattler doesnt have the DPS. Neither breed of rattler has the speed or the sig either.
Close, to a Rattler? What are you smoking, and why aren't you sharing.
Do I need to point out why an 8 midslot battleship has a "slightly" better tank than a 5 mid battleship?
....and don't tell me armor tanks, because when you do that you are giving up insanely fast battleship advantage #1. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:45:00 -
[57] - Quote
/sigh
The point of an active rattler is to leverage the launchers. That means rigors, that means painters on top of omnis that also means BCUs. When you add those the slots are far closer. The rattlers resists are offset by the fact the Mach is bombing about like a cruiser whereas the flying brick is lumbering along with a sig akin to that of a carrier....
It's not equal but its close enough for the point I was making which is that the Mach makes no sacrifices for what it can do. This toon picks the boat per mission, my alt has a Mach and doesnt bother because there's just no need. I can outperform the Mach, but only by cherrypicking fits and boats and fitting for absolute optimal for a given rat. Nothing wrong with being able to max out like that, what's dodgy is the Mach is damned close in performance terms and all my alt needs to do reload a different ammo type.
My CNR is close but not quite there. Mind you, it's a navy boat. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
498
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:52:00 -
[58] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:/sigh
The point of an active rattler is to leverage the launchers. That means rigors, that means painters on top of omnis that also means BCUs. When you add those the slots are far closer. The rattlers resists are offset by the fact the Mach is bombing about like a cruiser whereas the flying brick is lumbering along with a sig akin to that of a carrier....
It's not equal but its close enough for the point I was making which is that the Mach makes no sacrifices for what it can do. This toon picks the boat per mission, my alt has a Mach and doesnt bother because there's just no need. I can outperform the Mach, but only by cherrypicking fits and boats and fitting for absolute optimal for a given rat. Nothing wrong with being able to max out like that, what's dodgy is the Mach is damned close in performance terms and all my alt needs to do reload a different ammo type.
My CNR is close but not quite there. Mind you, it's a navy boat.
If you never flew the gallente or minmatar split bonus hulls you would know to ingore one. You don't bother with using 5 slots to use 4 unbonused lauchers, they are there for flavor, then even all of the drone mods yu could need there is plenty of space in the mids.
When you can carry three sets of heavy/sentries and three sets of lights at once who the hell needs a painter, or rigor/flare/BSC that is just silly. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
362
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 14:58:00 -
[59] - Quote
That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
498
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:03:00 -
[60] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it
Yeah and you are wasting FIVE slots to get another 130DPS. Its a waist, and you are giving up that big advantage of the hull which is its natural god tank. Strikes me as doing it the hard way personally.
|
|
Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
225
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:11:00 -
[61] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it Yeah and you are wasting FIVE slots to get another 130DPS. Its a waist, and you are giving up that big advantage of the hull which is its natural god tank. Strikes me as doing it the hard way personally. Are we still talking missions here? If so, I'd like to know what the hell you're talking about. Everybody knows that in missions damage is king. The faster you kill things, the faster the mission ends and the faster the damage goes away. Also he said 490 DPS. I'm not sure where you got 130.
And if you have to waste 5 slots to get another ~500 DPS, then sure, as long as your tank is still sufficient for missions. But all that being said, yeah, in those circumstances you might as well just use a Machariel. It does all that and easier. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
498
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:16:00 -
[62] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it Yeah and you are wasting FIVE slots to get another 130DPS. Its a waist, and you are giving up that big advantage of the hull which is its natural god tank. Strikes me as doing it the hard way personally. Are we still talking missions here? If so, I'd like to know what the hell you're talking about. Everybody knows that in missions damage is king. The faster you kill things, the faster the mission ends and the faster the damage goes away. Also he said 490 DPS. I'm not sure where you got 130. And if you have to waste 5 slots to get another ~500 DPS, then sure, as long as your tank is still sufficient for missions. But all that being said, yeah, in those circumstances you might as well just use a Machariel. It does all that and easier.
If you are giving up that tank you can do it MUCH better with a domi for a 1/4 of the price.
...or just fly a mach and not need the tank.
Plus trust me you aren't getting 500 DPS for four non-damaged bonus launchers |
Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
225
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:25:00 -
[63] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it Yeah and you are wasting FIVE slots to get another 130DPS. Its a waist, and you are giving up that big advantage of the hull which is its natural god tank. Strikes me as doing it the hard way personally. Are we still talking missions here? If so, I'd like to know what the hell you're talking about. Everybody knows that in missions damage is king. The faster you kill things, the faster the mission ends and the faster the damage goes away. Also he said 490 DPS. I'm not sure where you got 130. And if you have to waste 5 slots to get another ~500 DPS, then sure, as long as your tank is still sufficient for missions. But all that being said, yeah, in those circumstances you might as well just use a Machariel. It does all that and easier. If you are giving up that tank you can do it MUCH better with a domi for a 1/4 of the price. ...or just fly a mach and not need the tank. Plus trust me you aren't getting 500 DPS for four non-damaged bonus launchers
Well then the tank might as well go because as said before, we all know gank is tank.
But you are right about the Missile damage. I took what was said earlier at face value, but with 4 cruise launchers with furies, 3 BCU's and a 5% RoF and 5% CM implant it only gets 463 DPS. And I can't imagine one actually cramming that in just for the sake of the 4 launchers on a rattler.
Really the only purpose I can actually see for a rattler is bait tank or for really, REALLY maxing out the tank because you're scared the big scary mission will touch you inappropriately. And if you're baiting in a Rattler you'd better have a Cyno, because unless the backup arrives instantly your prey will be able to slowboat away from you. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
498
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:30:00 -
[64] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it Yeah and you are wasting FIVE slots to get another 130DPS. Its a waist, and you are giving up that big advantage of the hull which is its natural god tank. Strikes me as doing it the hard way personally. Are we still talking missions here? If so, I'd like to know what the hell you're talking about. Everybody knows that in missions damage is king. The faster you kill things, the faster the mission ends and the faster the damage goes away. Also he said 490 DPS. I'm not sure where you got 130. And if you have to waste 5 slots to get another ~500 DPS, then sure, as long as your tank is still sufficient for missions. But all that being said, yeah, in those circumstances you might as well just use a Machariel. It does all that and easier. If you are giving up that tank you can do it MUCH better with a domi for a 1/4 of the price. ...or just fly a mach and not need the tank. Plus trust me you aren't getting 500 DPS for four non-damaged bonus launchers Well then the tank might as well go because as said before, we all know gank is tank. But you are right about the Missile damage. I took what was said earlier at face value, but with 4 cruise launchers with furies, 3 BCU's and a 5% RoF and 5% CM implant it only gets 463 DPS. And I can't imagine one actually cramming that in just for the sake of the 4 launchers on a rattler. Really the only purpose I can actually see for a rattler is bait tank or for really, REALLY maxing out the tank because you're scared the big scary mission will touch you inappropriately. And if you're baiting in a Rattler you'd better have a Cyno, because unless the backup arrives instantly your prey will be able to slowboat away from you.
Not arguing that. Fact is with decent skills you can push 900ish DPS with a (comparatively) thin 1000 DPS active tank, cap stable. So going fulling full ****** on gank mods is something of a false economy to me.
Not for four crappy launchers. |
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
867
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:33:00 -
[65] - Quote
[Rattlesnake, Mission gank] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Drone Link Augmentor II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
5% cruise and missile ROF implants.
There you go, 490 cruise DPS. So what if it takes six modules? |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
498
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 15:40:00 -
[66] - Quote
I knew someone was going to do that. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1420
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 16:07:00 -
[67] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:That 'flavour' is kicking on for 490 DPS...I'm gonna go ahead and not ignore it Yeah and you are wasting FIVE slots to get another 130DPS. Its a waist, and you are giving up that big advantage of the hull which is its natural god tank. Strikes me as doing it the hard way personally. i just want to point out that a waist is the part between the upper and lower regions of interest on a young lady.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
000111000
University of Caille Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 22:01:00 -
[68] - Quote
I'm a returned pilot after 2 years offline, and if they nerf the Machariel BS I won't be willing to play EVE again like before.
so yes, I wish CCP to not nerf the ship, instead they can create new ones... but don't ruin the ones we have/want.
thanks for understanding. |
Heather Tsukaya
Feather Ventures
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.10 22:13:00 -
[69] - Quote
It will still be a good ship, fast ships always end up being useful.
However, if a ship is the fastest in its class, then it needs to have a serious weak point to make up for it, because speed is just so powerful in Eve.
The Machariel doesn't have any weak points like that. Having less range than a nightmare, and being squishier than a vindicator is not the same as having a serious weak point. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 04:33:00 -
[70] - Quote
Heather Tsukaya wrote:It will still be a good ship, fast ships always end up being useful.
However, if a ship is the fastest in its class, then it needs to have a serious weak point to make up for it, because speed is just so powerful in Eve.
The Machariel doesn't have any weak points like that. Having less range than a nightmare, and being squishier than a vindicator is not the same as having a serious weak point.
So wait, if speed is so powerful why is it that I have ever seen three nano-machs?
No one cares about PvE I can do level 4s in any battleship in the game, some would take longer that others but it's not like it's hard. |
|
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
850
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 06:20:00 -
[71] - Quote
Quote:But my whole point to begin with was to not compare dominix mach rattle, but since people did compare the rattlesnake in a favorable light to the machariel I had to call bullshit on that.
I fly Both. RS can finish almost all non-angel missions faster than the mach every time with the same 3 slot tank. I don't use the scrub ass MJD for starters. So nerfing the Mach and either buffing or not touching the RS would leave us with RS and Domi as better boats than the Mach. Nerfing the RS and Mach would leave the Domi better than both. Both of those scenarios suck . The only thing they can possibly do is nerf the agility and speed which has already been done. So essentially admit they didn't do the job right the first time.
RS gets an explosion radius and explosion velocity buff and remove the missile velocity buff, Domi gets a 2nd nerf to the drone tracking and range, and Mach gets a 2nd nerf to agility/speed. Thats the only way its going to be fair, will still leave the RS better than the Mach, and sin't going to happen because CCP doesn't want to admit the ****** up the balancing 4 times already on just 2 ships.
Quote:No one cares about PvE I can do level 4s in any battleship in the game, some would take longer that others but it's not like it's hard.
It makes a huge difference in time consumption which makes a huge difference in number of subs. While it may not be a top priority for you, CCP definitely recognizes that if they nerf peoples income over time it will cause real loss of income for them. Eve is Real |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
500
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 07:01:00 -
[72] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:But my whole point to begin with was to not compare dominix mach rattle, but since people did compare the rattlesnake in a favorable light to the machariel I had to call bullshit on that. I fly Both. RS can finish almost all non-angel missions faster than the mach every time with the same 3 slot tank. I don't use the scrub ass MJD for starters. So nerfing the Mach and either buffing or not touching the RS would leave us with RS and Domi as better boats than the Mach. Nerfing the RS and Mach would leave the Domi better than both. Both of those scenarios suck . The only thing they can possibly do is nerf the agility and speed which has already been done. So essentially admit they didn't do the job right the first time. RS gets an explosion radius and explosion velocity buff and remove the missile velocity buff, Domi gets a 2nd nerf to the drone tracking and range, and Mach gets a 2nd nerf to agility/speed. Thats the only way its going to be fair, will still leave the RS better than the Mach, and sin't going to happen because CCP doesn't want to admit the ****** up the balancing 4 times already on just 2 ships. Quote:No one cares about PvE I can do level 4s in any battleship in the game, some would take longer that others but it's not like it's hard. It makes a huge difference in time consumption which makes a huge difference in number of subs. While it may not be a top priority for you, CCP definitely recognizes that if they nerf peoples income over time it will cause real loss of income for them.
Hi sec people are hilarious.
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1201
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:37:00 -
[73] - Quote
Berendas wrote:The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships.
Overpowered ok but in what and how much?
DPS? -nope
DMG application bonus? -absolutely
Ship agility? -completely, a BS with cruiser agility, fit nanos and you get frigate agility, this is stupid as f_ck.
In short all this ship needs is dmg application bonus reduced and agility nerf to the ground, add some mass and it will get in line with other pirate BSs. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1201
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:42:00 -
[74] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:[Rattlesnake, Mission gank] Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 Dread Guristas X-Large Shield Booster Dread Guristas Thermic Dissipation Field Dread Guristas Kinetic Deflection Field Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link Federation Navy Omnidirectional Tracking Link
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile Cruise Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Fury Cruise Missile [empty high slot] Drone Link Augmentor II
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II Large Warhead Flare Catalyst I
5% cruise and missile ROF implants.
There you go, 490 cruise DPS. So what if it takes six modules?
Sry rather use my 1150DPS CNR if I want to watch things die slowly, if not a good gank Navy Mega is just awesome. How can you guys use drones to kill stuff? - time it travels I've already pop at least 2 cruisers, time they kill their cruiser I've already powned at least one BS and meanwhile my shiitty lights are chewing frigates and I'm slow boating to next gate.
I tried hard to love drone boats but I just can't, I really can't.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:43:00 -
[75] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Berendas wrote:The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships. Overpowered ok but in what and how much? DPS? -nope DMG application bonus? -absolutely Ship agility? -completely, a BS with cruiser agility, fit nanos and you get frigate agility, this is stupid as f_ck. In short all this ship needs is dmg application bonus reduced and agility nerf to the ground, add some mass and it will get in line with other pirate BSs.
Really application bonus? You mean the fall off that means you do like 100 dps at 50km? Or pin yourself to exp damage to get range.
.....and frigate agility, please. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
363
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:57:00 -
[76] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:How can you guys use drones to kill stuff? - time it travels I've already pop at least 2 cruisers, time they kill their cruiser I've already powned at least one BS and meanwhile my shiitty lights are chewing frigates and I'm slow boating to next gate.
Sentries. No travel time, instant damage.
And, given the irksome bug of rats refusing to die/eating extra volleys, they're actually kinda nicer than usual |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
363
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 10:58:00 -
[77] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Really application bonus? You mean the fall off that means you do like 100 dps at 50km? Or pin yourself to exp damage to get range.
Not sure if serious.....
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1201
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 11:12:00 -
[78] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Berendas wrote:The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships. Overpowered ok but in what and how much? DPS? -nope DMG application bonus? -absolutely Ship agility? -completely, a BS with cruiser agility, fit nanos and you get frigate agility, this is stupid as f_ck. In short all this ship needs is dmg application bonus reduced and agility nerf to the ground, add some mass and it will get in line with other pirate BSs. Really application bonus? You mean the fall off that means you do like 100 dps at 50km? Or pin yourself to exp damage to get range. .....and frigate agility, please.
If you do 100dps with your machariel at 50km you're doing it wrong or trolling me.
Secondly about agility, again you're either trolling me or you've never fit/rig any machariel for agility purpose and fly it to see what happens. Yes it warps faster than Cruisers, with MWD on goes faster than major cruisers (except Cynabal and now Vaga) and with links on+implants you get frigate agility, believe it or not, just try it out and then troll me again. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 12:12:00 -
[79] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Onictus wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Berendas wrote:The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships. Overpowered ok but in what and how much? DPS? -nope DMG application bonus? -absolutely Ship agility? -completely, a BS with cruiser agility, fit nanos and you get frigate agility, this is stupid as f_ck. In short all this ship needs is dmg application bonus reduced and agility nerf to the ground, add some mass and it will get in line with other pirate BSs. Really application bonus? You mean the fall off that means you do like 100 dps at 50km? Or pin yourself to exp damage to get range. .....and frigate agility, please. If you do 100dps with your machariel at 50km you're doing it wrong or trolling me. Secondly about agility, again you're either trolling me or you've never fit/rig any machariel for agility purpose and fly it to see what happens. Yes it warps faster than Cruisers, with MWD on goes faster than major cruisers (except Cynabal and now Vaga) and with links on+implants you get frigate agility, believe it or not, just try it out and then troll me again.
|
Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1193
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 12:25:00 -
[80] - Quote
You need to put the glass of wine down, mate.
Mine's a shiraz. And i am in no fit state to theorycraft. YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 12:27:00 -
[81] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:You need to put the glass of wine down, mate.
Mine's a shiraz. And i am in no fit state to theorycraft.
I haven't had a drop since the weekend. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
852
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 18:53:00 -
[82] - Quote
Quote:Hi sec people are hilarious.
I fly a mach in truesec too, nice attempt at character assassination.
Renter scrubs are even hilariouser. Eve is Real |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
16
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 19:52:00 -
[83] - Quote
I think it is funny people will say that ISK cost is not the balancing factor for ship balance. The demand for a ship and its resource cost together will always give you a balanced ship choice. However when it comes to SP spent vs a ship per category, that is where serious misbalance can occur. Or in other words CCP has somewhat of a responsibility to secure that people have a semi-equal SP reward.
I think it would be awesome if factions were advertised more on their weaknesses and strong points. Because lets be honest as is it's pretty much :Amarr=energy and fleet warfare. Caldari=E-war missiles jack of all trades master of none. Winmatar=Small gang warfare and weapons experts(most versatile). Gallente=Similar to Minmatar with stronger fleet warfare capabilities. Pardon me if I missed something there but let people understand the empires/factions a little better from the get go. Might be interesting to see certain factions focus on certain types of ships more, so some will have more frigates, or cruisers, or battleship not by multitudes of 2x or greater ofc but imho it is wouldn't be much different then as is since there are discrepancies between categorial strengths as is. |
Nick Kumamoto
State Protectorate Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 22:34:00 -
[84] - Quote
Xyrdiana wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?
I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....
PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach. Boo f*cking Hoo The ship is overpowered and should be tuned down. NOT MUCH but still.
Do the same for the NM and the Vindi then....
|
Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
229
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 23:29:00 -
[85] - Quote
Nick Kumamoto wrote:Xyrdiana wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?
I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....
PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach. Boo f*cking Hoo The ship is overpowered and should be tuned down. NOT MUCH but still. Do the same for the NM and the Vindi then.... Because we all see NM and Vindi fleets all the time in PvP...
I personally have never seen a PvP Nightmare. I know it happens from time to time, but it's a very rare occurence. Vindicators are somewhat more common, but see very little PvP use compared to the Mach. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 23:36:00 -
[86] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Quote:Hi sec people are hilarious. I fly a mach in truesec too, nice attempt at character assassination. Renter scrubs are even hilariouser.
What ever gave you the idea that I was a renter?
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.11 23:40:00 -
[87] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:[ Because we all see NM and Vindi fleets all the time in PvP...
I personally have never seen a PvP Nightmare. I know it happens from time to time, but it's a very rare occurence. Vindicators are somewhat more common, but see very little PvP use compared to the Mach.
I've flown in a couple mach fleets. Like 4.
Every other mach I have ever seen in anger was someone roaming with a sniper or just hot dropping it for lols.
|
Goldensaver
Perkone Caldari State
229
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 04:31:00 -
[88] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:[ Because we all see NM and Vindi fleets all the time in PvP...
I personally have never seen a PvP Nightmare. I know it happens from time to time, but it's a very rare occurence. Vindicators are somewhat more common, but see very little PvP use compared to the Mach. I've flown in a couple mach fleets. Like 4. Every other mach I have ever seen in anger was someone roaming with a sniper or just hot dropping it for lols. Which is still likely more than you've seen any NM/Vindi fleets or even ships used in PvP. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
501
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 04:45:00 -
[89] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:[ Because we all see NM and Vindi fleets all the time in PvP...
I personally have never seen a PvP Nightmare. I know it happens from time to time, but it's a very rare occurence. Vindicators are somewhat more common, but see very little PvP use compared to the Mach. I've flown in a couple mach fleets. Like 4. Every other mach I have ever seen in anger was someone roaming with a sniper or just hot dropping it for lols. Which is still likely more than you've seen any NM/Vindi fleets or even ships used in PvP.
I've flow a vindi in PvP. Unfortunately our cyno got popped and I actually missed the fight that time. |
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
230
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:56:00 -
[90] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote: Which is still likely more than you've seen any NM/Vindi fleets or even ships used in PvP.
I've flow a vindi in PvP. Unfortunately our cyno got popped and I actually missed the fight that time. Which is to say, you've flown a Vindi once in PvP, but you didn't even get to fight. On the other hand you've flown in more than one Machariel fleet, and I've heard nothing about PvP Nightmares. I'm still not seeing an argument to nerf the Vindi and Nightmare just because they nerf the Mach, which was the "start" of this string of conversation:
Nick Kumamoto wrote:Xyrdiana wrote: Boo f*cking Hoo
The ship is overpowered and should be tuned down. NOT MUCH but still.
Do the same for the NM and the Vindi then....
Unless of course this fool thinks that PvE balance is important.
|
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
502
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 18:59:00 -
[91] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote: Which is still likely more than you've seen any NM/Vindi fleets or even ships used in PvP.
I've flow a vindi in PvP. Unfortunately our cyno got popped and I actually missed the fight that time. Which is to say, you've flown a Vindi once in PvP, but you didn't even get to fight. On the other hand you've flown in more than one Machariel fleet, and I've heard nothing about PvP Nightmares.
By all means though, link some battle reports of all of the mach fleets that are roaming all over tearing up the universe.
Bet you don't find one that is much more than a gank, because they may be faster than battlecruises, they have less tank. |
Frostys Virpio
Lame Corp Name
680
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 19:36:00 -
[92] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote: Which is still likely more than you've seen any NM/Vindi fleets or even ships used in PvP.
I've flow a vindi in PvP. Unfortunately our cyno got popped and I actually missed the fight that time. Which is to say, you've flown a Vindi once in PvP, but you didn't even get to fight. On the other hand you've flown in more than one Machariel fleet, and I've heard nothing about PvP Nightmares. By all means though, link some battle reports of all of the mach fleets that are roaming all over tearing up the universe. Bet you don't find one that is much more than a gank, because they may be faster than battlecruises, they have less tank.
The pricetag that is not supposed to be a balance factor might have something to do with those ships not seeing THAT much use but that does not eman they are good/bad/OP/UP. With all the people waying null is super dangerous with the risk of "hotdrop o'clock" happening, maybe people don;t want to go around in 1bill fitted ships even if they good. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid
369
|
Posted - 2013.09.12 22:09:00 -
[93] - Quote
Onictus wrote:By all means though, link some battle reports of all of the mach fleets that are roaming all over tearing up the universe.
Bet you don't find one that is much more than a gank, because they may be faster than battlecruises, they have less tank.
Wait have I just been imagining Snuff Box for all these years? Capital Shop temporarily closed. |
Angsty Teenager
Broski North Black Legion.
177
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 03:05:00 -
[94] - Quote
I hate people who claim ships need to be nerfed because they can't use their brain to determine the weaknesses of the ship and then exploit them.
Literally makes me so mad.
The mach is one of the most balanced ships in the game that fulfills it's role, doesn't need a buff, and doesn't need a nerf. It is strong when used in the hands of a competent player, and utterly terrible when used by somebody who doesn't have a brain, exactly how it should be.
There are no good reasons to nerf it.
It's not that fast, battlecruisers are the same speed, it's fine to have a battleship that goes BC speeds, why not? It's not like it can't be easily caught by virtually all ships being flown nowadays. (All frigs, all cruisers, all HAC's) The only thing that can't catch it is another battleship, lol. And please don't whine about it's linked speed, that has nothing to do with the ship itself.
It's not tanky, it has t1 resists and it's not really feasible to run an active shield tank to a great degree of effectiveness due to the fact that you can only have two mid slots to tank with and even then you don't have enough cap to burn your MWD and use the booster.
It's damage application is not good. People look at EFT and say OMG SO GOOD DAMAGE, 900dps at 50km, but apparently nobody understands how falloff actually works, and don't understand how big the role of tracking is in actual damage application (the mach's tracking is pretty bad, just fyi).
In short the mach can easily be destroyed by any competent player. You really shouldn't be expecting to solo it in a talos, but it's quite easy to take down with two ships, or one ship that exploits it's weaknesses (cap life, reliance on an MWD, low tracking, low tank).
For example, just a couple days ago I was killing a mach, and would have killed it had his friend not warped in with a vigilant and webbed me so the mach could track me. It's laughable that people call nerf on ships that barely get flown in the first place. Doesn't make sense. If machs were being flown left and right and owning evreything, sure, but they AREN'T in either respect. |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 03:19:00 -
[95] - Quote
Angsty Teenager wrote:
There are no good reasons to nerf it.
You can down play the Mach as much as you want (I agree to a certain extent) but that still doesn't change the fact that it is better than almost all other ships in it's class. No amount of morons trying to cruise solo in a BS makes up for the fact that it is better when used properly than the other Pirate BS's.
Now if you think the other pirate BS's should be buffed up to the Mach's level than I can get behind that but you can't honestly think the Nightmare is on the same level as the Mach right now. |
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
231
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 03:31:00 -
[96] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Angsty Teenager wrote:
There are no good reasons to nerf it.
You can down play the Mach as much as you want (I agree to a certain extent) but that still doesn't change the fact that it is better than almost all other ships in it's class. No amount of morons trying to cruise solo in a BS makes up for the fact that it is better when used properly than the other Pirate BS's. Now if you think the other pirate BS's should be buffed up to the Mach's level than I can get behind that but you can't honestly think the Nightmare is on the same level as the Mach right now.
Hell, I'm not really putting an opinion as to whether it should be nerfed or not, really. This is basically what I keep saying. Earlier on page 5 a whole discussion started because someone stupid said "if you nerf the Mach then nerf the NM and Vindi!"
That really doesn't make much sense. The Mach is simply better than the other two, so I don't see the sense in that. I don't fly the Mach. I've considered it, but I don't. I can't argue for nerfs too much. I can complain about things, but it's largely/completely unfounded. I'm just getting sick of people arguing that the other pirate BS's are on par with the Mach.
The Vindi's good, but not quite as great. The Bhaalgorn? It has its uses. The NM and Rattler? Yeah, I wouldn't PvP in them. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
503
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 04:50:00 -
[97] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Angsty Teenager wrote:
There are no good reasons to nerf it.
You can down play the Mach as much as you want (I agree to a certain extent) but that still doesn't change the fact that it is better than almost all other ships in it's class. No amount of morons trying to cruise solo in a BS makes up for the fact that it is better when used properly than the other Pirate BS's. Now if you think the other pirate BS's should be buffed up to the Mach's level than I can get behind that but you can't honestly think the Nightmare is on the same level as the Mach right now.
Whoa wait, better how....and for what?
NC. Is running rattler fleets as a main doctrine. Vindi was war deccer candy for a long long time......not sure if they still use them.
So yeah mach can be fast, so what. It doesn't push the dps of vindi or nightmare, doesnt have the tank of any of them.....it just goes fast.
ZOMG ZOMG NERF!!!!!!!!
Pathetic. |
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
115
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 11:01:00 -
[98] - Quote
Slaved Lovechild wrote:Got it it's way better than the Maelstrom. I don't think you'll get any argument to that. The Mach is also over a billion ISK. Of course it's better!... If it wasn't why would anyone pay that. By some posters logic the navy version of the Hurricane is OP. How about T3 cruisers...
Anyways this is all moot because it's just rumor till it's announced by CCP. The Mach was already nerfed and I don't see any major nerf happening.
It's way better than a Vargur too, except in lack range and active tank, and it has such a massive extra PG it's not funny.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 12:53:00 -
[99] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Slaved Lovechild wrote:Got it it's way better than the Maelstrom. I don't think you'll get any argument to that. The Mach is also over a billion ISK. Of course it's better!... If it wasn't why would anyone pay that. By some posters logic the navy version of the Hurricane is OP. How about T3 cruisers...
Anyways this is all moot because it's just rumor till it's announced by CCP. The Mach was already nerfed and I don't see any major nerf happening. It's way better than a Vargur too, except in lack range and active tank, and it has such a massive extra PG it's not funny.
And maelstrom makes both of their available PG look like a joke.
That has anything to do with it....how? Other than Vagur sucks (good luck with that in F&I) |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1447
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 13:19:00 -
[100] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Whoa wait, better how....and for what? - better for lvl4s because of selectable damage type, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for incursions because of higher alpha, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for small scale pvp because of selectable damage type, capless weapons, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for fleet pvp selectable damage type, higher alpha, higher scan resolution, speed and agility.
you're welcome.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 13:46:00 -
[101] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Onictus wrote:Whoa wait, better how....and for what? - better for lvl4s because of selectable damage type, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for incursions because of higher alpha, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for small scale pvp because of selectable damage type, capless weapons, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for fleet pvp selectable damage type, higher alpha, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. you're welcome.
- pretty debatable, I could run at the same pace with either a Domi or a CNR neither of which I have to chase ship to ship.....or do you use T2 barrage with everything? I don't because it sucks outside of angel missions. -Wrong the the incursion crew favors the Nightmare and Vindis for pretty much all things over vangards, and in vans Vargur/vindi is often better for their tracking and web bonuses respectively - Wrong again, it IS better as a nano battleship, because it is the best nano battleship, and to GET the speed numbers the neurosurgeons in this thread keep quoting you have to knock its eHP down to the around 70,000 eHP a well tanked battlecruiser. Not to mention with **** PERFECT cap and nav skills your cap lasts all of 1:45 without getting fancy with implants. So after fitting a point, MWDand CAP booster and point where do you put the tank pray tell? - So incorrect on that last one I won't even get started. I've lived in null for a couple years now ...y'know doing fleet stuff....and even though Goons had a mach doctrine I never actually saw them field it despite being in a war with them at the time. My OWN allaince(s) I have never seen "mach fleets" beyond the corp roam level with less than 20 main ships and an equal number of support.
I know NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF NERF. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1452
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 15:04:00 -
[102] - Quote
i'm done arguing with idiots for today. just one last thing: the fact that you personally never saw mach fleets has 0 impact on the question whether or not they are better fleet ships than vindicators.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Angsty Teenager
Broski North Black Legion.
177
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 16:01:00 -
[103] - Quote
Daniel Plain,
Regardless of how the mach performs in PVE (tbh I couldn't care less and if CCP is going to balance the game around PVE I'm literally going to shoot myself), it's really not evreything you claim it is for pvp.
Why don't you try joining some alliance dumb enough to let you take out a mach fleet and see how well it does. Fact of the matter is that the tornado can achieve the same thing for significantly less cost. The mach has terrible tank, terrible cap and will die so fast in a fleet fight it's not even funny. No reason not to use a tornado which DOES THE EXACT SAME THING.
Second, in a small gang pvp fight (which is arguably the strongest situation for the mach), the mach still suffers from terrible tracking. Capless weapons hardly matter when you have to burn your MWD constantly to avoid dying (because your tank is abysmal), and enjoy outtracking yourself with your MWD because AC's have bad tracking and you get no tracking bonus.
You stupid people on this forum are the reason this game is being homogenized. God forbid that the mach is a fast battleship unlike other battleships. What you want is for CCP to nerf it's speed to the speed of the vindi, and then fix it (because nobody will fly it after that change) so that it does the same dps as other BS's at close range.
WHOOPDEEDO now we can just have a bunch of battleships that are slow, boring and excel at tanking and doing damage within 20km. Goddamn I hate you. Like I said before, NOBODY EVEN FLIES THE MACH RIGHT NOW, WHY WOULD YOU NERF IT. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
363
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 16:18:00 -
[104] - Quote
Do you guys realise the devs themselves have said they believe it's overtuned and it's not just a big conspiracy/player hate?
Mind you they said the same thing with HML and well......I think I have some under the dust somewhere...
This isn't meant to be sarcastic, just this is one of the rarer ones where there's a Dev citation and not just rabblerabblerabble. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 16:20:00 -
[105] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Onictus wrote:Whoa wait, better how....and for what? - better for lvl4s because of selectable damage type, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for incursions because of higher alpha, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for small scale pvp because of selectable damage type, capless weapons, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. - better for fleet pvp selectable damage type, higher alpha, higher scan resolution, speed and agility. you're welcome.
the mach is meant to be fast hence its name
also selectable damage type still takes you 10 seconds to switch
If the mach is so good at small scale pvp how comes i only ever saw one in the few months i lived in null? and guess what ...it got blown up.
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 16:25:00 -
[106] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:Mind you they said the same thing with HML and well......I think I have some under the dust somewhere...
At the time of the HML nerf they were absolutely correct...... ......so they went and buffed the turret LR systems to were HMLs used to live, without giving HMLs the damage back.
Derp.
So now we have a red headed step-child. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
853
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 16:28:00 -
[107] - Quote
Selectable damage types, plural, with an s. It always does kinetic, which half of New Eden is stacked against naturally.
Claiming that selectable damage types is a benefit in incursions is akin to saying "I don't know anything". Claiming that selectable damage types is an advantage in PvP when it ALWAYS does kinetic is more of the same.
The Mach rips Angels to shreds. Its par for the course against all else. Eve is Real |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 17:10:00 -
[108] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Selectable damage types, plural, with an s. It always does kinetic, which half of New Eden is stacked against naturally.
Claiming that selectable damage types is a benefit in incursions is akin to saying "I don't know anything". Claiming that selectable damage types is an advantage in PvP when it ALWAYS does kinetic is more of the same.
The Mach rips Angels to shreds. Its par for the course against all else.
Fly a laser boat. Projectiles are selectable damage type and it is a huge advantage in PvP and PvE. Try running a NM in anything besides Sansha/BR/Drones.
1. Mach - Very good boat. Either use it as the base for Pirate BS's or a very slight nerf to bring it to the Vindy's level 2. Vindy - Pretty close to the Mach but less versatile. Small buff if Mach stays the same. 3. Rattler - God tank and decent damage that applies well. Small buff in fitting or drone control range would be cool. 4. Bhaalgorn - Dominant at one very small thing and close to useless at everything else. 5. Nightmare - PvE in very specific parts of space and Incursions are all you see it doing. Not sure exactly what it needs though.
This pretty much works for all the pirate ship lines. Switch out the Mach for the Cynabal and etc. Similar complaints down the line except the Sansha ships stop even being useful for PvE. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
17
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 18:00:00 -
[109] - Quote
I'll say it again cause no one else seems to. The rattler being a drone boat does not deserve to be in the slowest speed category, especially considering it has only 4 launchers. There is no tracking increase from kiting, and being chased or kited by an 4 launcher fitted BS without bonuses isn't even close to scary. As is a rattler is stationary with sentries, or point blank with heavy drones the latter I can't imagine happening much. Both cases make a point for turning the rattler from an asteroid into a battleship and increase its maximum speed. Since we are all adding what is missing from other pirate BS. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2779
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 18:26:00 -
[110] - Quote
I'm not going to ask CCP to not nerf my beloved Machariel (bless be it's holy name, amen), I'm going to ask that they not OVER-nerf it. It's a pirate BS based on JoveTech that you can only aquire via null sec sources, it's supposed to be awesome. |
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Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
231
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 18:55:00 -
[111] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Slaved Lovechild wrote:Got it it's way better than the Maelstrom. I don't think you'll get any argument to that. The Mach is also over a billion ISK. Of course it's better!... If it wasn't why would anyone pay that. By some posters logic the navy version of the Hurricane is OP. How about T3 cruisers...
Anyways this is all moot because it's just rumor till it's announced by CCP. The Mach was already nerfed and I don't see any major nerf happening. It's way better than a Vargur too, except in lack range and active tank, and it has such a massive extra PG it's not funny. And maelstrom makes both of their available PG look like a joke.
And even with its immense PWG, for comparison a full rack of arties takes up 98% of a Maels max PWG, a full rack of arties takes up 101% of a Mach's PWG. But the Mach also has 1 more Low+Mid slot, and has a utility high. So they have a similar % allocation to weapons, but the Mach has effectively 2 slots more.
Sorry, but I really don't like these kinds of arguments. Yes, it has more PWG. But it also has 1 more gun. All that PWG only really matters when fitting Arty anyways (autos are dirt cheap PWG wise, barely taking over half the PWG in both cases), and if fitting arty the simple matter is you'll need Reactor Controls and/or ACRs to fit them (with anything else at all). |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 19:53:00 -
[112] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:[ Sorry, but I really don't like these kinds of arguments. Yes, it has more PWG. But it also has 1 more gun. All that PWG only really matters when fitting Arty anyways (autos are dirt cheap PWG wise, barely taking over half the PWG in both cases), and if fitting arty the simple matter is you'll need Reactor Controls and/or ACRs to fit them (with anything else at all).
Slit hairs much?
Mael can fit a full rack of 1400s and a full tank + prop mod without a fitting mod at all, which ISN'T going to happen with a Mach.
My point stands. |
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
231
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 21:30:00 -
[113] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:[ Sorry, but I really don't like these kinds of arguments. Yes, it has more PWG. But it also has 1 more gun. All that PWG only really matters when fitting Arty anyways (autos are dirt cheap PWG wise, barely taking over half the PWG in both cases), and if fitting arty the simple matter is you'll need Reactor Controls and/or ACRs to fit them (with anything else at all). Slit hairs much? Mael can fit a full rack of 1400s and a full tank + prop mod without a fitting mod at all, which ISN'T going to happen with a Mach. My point stands. ... Afterburner? Do those even go on Battleships, let alone long range fit BS's? |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
506
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 23:44:00 -
[114] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:[ Sorry, but I really don't like these kinds of arguments. Yes, it has more PWG. But it also has 1 more gun. All that PWG only really matters when fitting Arty anyways (autos are dirt cheap PWG wise, barely taking over half the PWG in both cases), and if fitting arty the simple matter is you'll need Reactor Controls and/or ACRs to fit them (with anything else at all). Slit hairs much? Mael can fit a full rack of 1400s and a full tank + prop mod without a fitting mod at all, which ISN'T going to happen with a Mach. My point stands. ... Afterburner? Do those even go on Battleships, let alone long range fit BS's?
are you shitting me?
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1460
|
Posted - 2013.09.13 23:58:00 -
[115] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Claiming that selectable damage types is a benefit in incursions is akin to saying "I don't know anything". that's why i did not say it.
Quote:Claiming that selectable damage types is an advantage in PvP when it ALWAYS does kinetic is more of the same. so it always does 100% kinetic? no wait, is it 50%? OH RIGHT it's somewhere between 10% and 20% while the rest goes straight into the resist hole unless you were too stupid to switch ammo while warping. and i know i know, now you will tell me how you often have to fight against several enemies with different resist holes and all of them have like 110% kinetic resistance so you're actually healing them with your shots. it's amazing how many mental contortions people will go through when they don't want to lose their ticket to the gravy train.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
231
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 00:19:00 -
[116] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Onictus wrote:Goldensaver wrote:[ Sorry, but I really don't like these kinds of arguments. Yes, it has more PWG. But it also has 1 more gun. All that PWG only really matters when fitting Arty anyways (autos are dirt cheap PWG wise, barely taking over half the PWG in both cases), and if fitting arty the simple matter is you'll need Reactor Controls and/or ACRs to fit them (with anything else at all). Slit hairs much? Mael can fit a full rack of 1400s and a full tank + prop mod without a fitting mod at all, which ISN'T going to happen with a Mach. My point stands. ... Afterburner? Do those even go on Battleships, let alone long range fit BS's? are you shitting me? In my experience many battleships won't use AB's. They'll opt for either an MWD for better repositioning when required, or for a MJD for the nice effect. I can think of a couple situations where an AB would be useful, but there aren't many where an AB would be chosen over an MWD for a BS. It's not like your BS's are AHAC's where you need to intentionally keep your sig as small as possible to avoid enemy BS fire as in most cases it won't make a difference anyways. Only time it really makes a difference is against Dread blapping...
Of course if you can show me how in history that people will largely use AB's over MWD's in fleet BS's (and if you can show me even solo Maels with 1400's opting to use AB's over MWD's, of course you'll have to prove that they get used more than MWD Maels) then I'll believe you and agree that AB's are definitely real things that everybody should use on their Artillery Battleships, and that the Mael has a huge advantage due to this. |
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
1460
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 00:22:00 -
[117] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:5. Nightmare - PvE in very specific parts of space and Incursions are all you see it doing. Not sure exactly what it needs though. the only 'special' pvp feature of the nightmare are the two extra highs. you could try to buff its cap to make neuts or RR more worthwhile but you'd have to be careful not to overbuff it so much it becomes irrelevant in pve. you could also buff its agility to keep up with the other pirate hulls but that would kinda kill its flavor. a unique and more homogenous shield resist profile could be a fun experiment to make omnitanking easier, but then again, it's already strong enough in pve.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
854
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 09:47:00 -
[118] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:Claiming that selectable damage types is a benefit in incursions is akin to saying "I don't know anything". that's why i did not say it. Quote:Claiming that selectable damage types is an advantage in PvP when it ALWAYS does kinetic is more of the same. so it always does 100% kinetic? no wait, is it 50%? OH RIGHT it's somewhere between 10% and 20% while the rest goes straight into the resist hole unless you were too stupid to switch ammo while warping. and i know i know, now you will tell me how you often have to fight against several enemies with different resist holes and all of them have like 110% kinetic resistance so you're actually healing them with your shots. it's amazing how many mental contortions people will go through when they don't want to lose their ticket to the gravy train.
1. I didn't say you said anything. Guilty conscience maybe? I couldn't tell ya. Other people said it though.
Mickey Knox wrote:This aint about you ya egamaniac 2. Its less of an advantage than 100% selectable damage for certain. 3. If you were paying any attention at all you would no its not "my gravy train". Its my ship of choice for what it excels at. For example if you nerf it more than ever so slightly and buff the RS slightly there will be zero reason to fly it. Same with the Vargur post winter expansion. Same with Domi. Eve is Real |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
508
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 11:09:00 -
[119] - Quote
Hell I haven't even used my Mach in over a year, its to much of a pain in the ass to haul around so I just leave it in low sec. (I actually lost it and spent an hour trying to figure out which toon had it).
Its SO overpowered that I have no use for it.
I seriously don't get the pitchforks. |
Ariel Dawn
F9X
1123
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 14:40:00 -
[120] - Quote
They're fantastic in PvE for L4 missioning (1040 DPS using normal ammo and 700m/s), very cheap to kit out since all you need is a decent afterburner, so you can avoid mission gankers who are in it to get shiny modules.
They're just too fast/agile for a battleship, so it's likely they'll be brought more in line with their counter parts. They shouldn't be able to be more mobile than battlecruisers! |
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
508
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 15:07:00 -
[121] - Quote
Ariel Dawn wrote:They're fantastic in PvE for L4 missioning (1040 DPS using normal ammo and 700m/s), very cheap to kit out since all you need is a decent afterburner, so you can avoid mission gankers who are in it to get shiny modules.
They're just too fast/agile for a battleship, so it's likely they'll be brought more in line with their counter parts. They shouldn't be able to be more mobile than battlecruisers!
So you are saying nerf because they MISSION to well?
lol
If they are faster than battlecruisers they have less tank. |
Mina Sebiestar
Mactabilis Simplex Cursus
418
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 15:59:00 -
[122] - Quote
Machariel is cruiser a lot of confusion in this thread. http://i.imgur.com/1N37t.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KTjFEt6.jpg I dont always fly stabber but when i do...
|
Josilin du Guesclin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
116
|
Posted - 2013.09.14 22:34:00 -
[123] - Quote
Angsty Teenager wrote: Second, in a small gang pvp fight (which is arguably the strongest situation for the mach), the mach still suffers from terrible tracking. Capless weapons hardly matter when you have to burn your MWD constantly to avoid dying (because your tank is abysmal), and enjoy outtracking yourself with your MWD because AC's have bad tracking and you get no tracking bonus.
AC tracking is middle of the road for short ranged weapon systems, and with all those lows there's room for some Tracking Enhancers, or were you planning on filling them all up with nanos just to reduce the apparent tank?
As for people complaining about the Mach's terrible cap - it's about the same as most battleships, and they all have cap trouble when running MWDs. However, there's a type of ship, the'logistics ship' that has within it several classes of ship that specialise in transferring capacitor charge to other ships. Those who are having trouble with their battleships' cap might want to try bringing some along to their next fight.
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1212
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 13:21:00 -
[124] - Quote
The single ship I've seen go faster than a very well pimp Vindicator to clean a Guristas Sanctum is a well pimp Machariel, 17 min for vindi a bit less than 15 for machariel, indeed it's a horrible ship.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
512
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 13:54:00 -
[125] - Quote
Josilin du Guesclin wrote:Angsty Teenager wrote: Second, in a small gang pvp fight (which is arguably the strongest situation for the mach), the mach still suffers from terrible tracking. Capless weapons hardly matter when you have to burn your MWD constantly to avoid dying (because your tank is abysmal), and enjoy outtracking yourself with your MWD because AC's have bad tracking and you get no tracking bonus.
AC tracking is middle of the road for short ranged weapon systems, and with all those lows there's room for some Tracking Enhancers, or were you planning on filling them all up with nanos just to reduce the apparent tank? As for people complaining about the Mach's terrible cap - it's about the same as most battleships, and they all have cap trouble when running MWDs. However, there's a type of ship, the'logistics ship' that has within it several classes of ship that specialise in transferring capacitor charge to other ships. Those who are having trouble with their battleships' cap might want to try bringing some along to their next fight.
Yes, keeping cap chains up at over 2000m/s is the way you go about it.....with MWD basi's I presume? That always happens. |
Texty
State War Academy Caldari State
75
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 18:26:00 -
[126] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Hell I haven't even used my Mach in over a year, its to much of a pain in the ass to haul around so I just leave it in low sec. (I actually lost it and spent an hour trying to figure out which toon had it).
Its SO overpowered that I have no use for it.
I seriously don't get the pitchforks. If you don't fly Machs, what in this thread is bothering you so much? |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
512
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 20:57:00 -
[127] - Quote
Texty wrote:Onictus wrote:Hell I haven't even used my Mach in over a year, its to much of a pain in the ass to haul around so I just leave it in low sec. (I actually lost it and spent an hour trying to figure out which toon had it).
Its SO overpowered that I have no use for it.
I seriously don't get the pitchforks. If you don't fly Machs, what in this thread is bothering you so much?
The whole idea is silly mainly.
Like I said I have one, I'm even skilled damn near perfectly for it.
I don't understand the pitchforks. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
820
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 21:48:00 -
[128] - Quote
Berendas wrote:The Machariel is, and has been overpowered for quite a long time. Its rebalance is long overdue. I can't produce a link at the moment, but I know that CCP has stated either on the forums or in a dev blog that the Mach will be brought in line with the other faction battleships.
yeah .. saw a dev response akin to this fairly recently aswell
something along the lines of .. it's a little OP and needs some tweaking, but not overly much (not the Devs exact words, just what I remember from the post) iirc he was discussing the pirate faction battleships in general, should be searchable for in the dev-post tracker that's somewhere |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
858
|
Posted - 2013.09.15 22:31:00 -
[129] - Quote
Texty wrote:Onictus wrote:Hell I haven't even used my Mach in over a year, its to much of a pain in the ass to haul around so I just leave it in low sec. (I actually lost it and spent an hour trying to figure out which toon had it).
Its SO overpowered that I have no use for it.
I seriously don't get the pitchforks. If you don't fly Machs, what in this thread is bothering you so much?
Are you trolling? What would you do if they wanted to rebalance things that you thought didn't need it?
Eve is Real |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
530
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 06:32:00 -
[130] - Quote
No other pirate BS is *best* (or nearly so) in every relevant catagory.
When you look at the projectile BS boats and want: * the fastest - get a mach * the highest DPS - get a mach * the best sniper - get a mach * the best shield tank - doesn't really matter get a mael/Fleet pest/Mach * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Fleet phoon/Mach * Want a drone boat? well, angel isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a mach
But for hybrid BS boats: * the fastest - get a Navy Mega, but doesn't really matter, the Vindi is very close * the highest DPS - get a Vindi * the best sniper - get a Rokh or N mega * the best shield tank - get a rokh, after that, doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega/Hyperion * Want a drone boat? well, serpentis isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a Vindi, but the N mega will field a full flight of sentries,with room to spare and the N domi will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries * Want a webbing brawler - get a Vindi
For laser boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Apoc * the highest DPS - get a Nightmare or Abaddon * the best sniper - get a Navy Apoc * the best shield tank - get a Nightmare * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get an Abaddon/Navy BS/Bhaalgorn * Want a drone boat? well, Laser boats are't for you, but you can field a full flight of lights and sentries with a Navy geddon, but the normal geddon will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries * Want to web and neut your target - get a bhaal
For drone boats: * the fastest - get a Navy Domi * the highest DPS - get a Navy Domi * the best sniper - get a Domi * the best shield tank - get a Snake * the best armor tank - Get a N domi or Geddon * Want a drone boat? well, they are all pretty comparable, but the Domi with its dual drone bonus stands ahead of the rest. * Want to neut your target - get a geddon
The mach simply obsoletes every other projectile based BS for every purpose. Its got the best range, the best DPS, and the best speed - combined with a more or less equal tank (perhaps superior when sig and speed are factored in). That is an OP combination.
None of the other pirate BSs even come close. If the Mach doesn't get a heavy nerf, then the other Pirate BSs need a heavy buff. (for the record, TE changes don't count as a nerf to machs, since they also equall nerfed ever other projectile and blasterboat, and even the rail and lasers boats were nerfed a bit by it) |
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 09:41:00 -
[131] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:No other pirate BS is *best* (or nearly so) in every relevant catagory.
When you look at the projectile BS boats and want: * the fastest - get a mach * the highest DPS - get a mach * the best sniper - get a mach * the best shield tank - doesn't really matter get a mael/Fleet pest/Mach * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Fleet phoon/Mach * Want a drone boat? well, angel isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a mach
But for hybrid BS boats: * the fastest - get a Navy Mega, but doesn't really matter, the Vindi is very close * the highest DPS - get a Vindi * the best sniper - get a Rokh or N mega * the best shield tank - get a rokh, after that, doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega/Hyperion * Want a drone boat? well, serpentis isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a Vindi, but the N mega will field a full flight of sentries,with room to spare and the N domi will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries * Want a webbing brawler - get a Vindi
For laser boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Apoc * the highest DPS - get a Nightmare or Abaddon * the best sniper - get a Navy Apoc * the best shield tank - get a Nightmare * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get an Abaddon/Navy BS/Bhaalgorn * Want a drone boat? well, Laser boats are't for you, but you can field a full flight of lights and sentries with a Navy geddon, but the normal geddon will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries * Want to web and neut your target - get a bhaal
For drone boats: * the fastest - get a Navy Domi * the highest DPS - get a Navy Domi * the best sniper - get a Domi * the best shield tank - get a Snake * the best armor tank - Get a N domi or Geddon * Want a drone boat? well, they are all pretty comparable, but the Domi with its dual drone bonus stands ahead of the rest. * Want to neut your target - get a geddon
The mach simply obsoletes every other projectile based BS for every purpose. Its got the best range, the best DPS, and the best speed - combined with a more or less equal tank (perhaps superior when sig and speed are factored in). That is an OP combination.
None of the other pirate BSs even come close. If the Mach doesn't get a heavy nerf, then the other Pirate BSs need a heavy buff. (for the record, TE changes don't count as a nerf to machs, since they also equall nerfed ever other projectile and blasterboat, and even the rail and lasers boats were nerfed a bit by it)
You are nuts if you think a mach can fit close to the tank that a maelstrom can, and its rivaled by a fleet pest in the armor category.....easily.
Again not the machs issue CCP, but than again you are making unfair comparisons. So far as projectiles go mach only tops maelstrom by about 200 dps in mission trim, the issue being the maelstrom it's just a big slow brick.
Why does mach in validate "all projectile" ships, but Vindi does not? Really a vindi makes a mega look like a toy, and it can flat out tank a navy mega, it has a bigger buffer, bigger dps and ungodly web bonus.
But vindi is fine you are making a plainly biased statement.
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1212
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 12:17:00 -
[132] - Quote
Everyone and his grand mother hates T3's for so many biased reasons it would take me at least 3 pages to name them all. Once upon a time there was a T3 frigate named Dramiel, you know what happened to it and why.
Right now there's only one T3 Battleship, can do everything another one does but better and faster, in fact can be so fast few cruisers can match its top speed this BS is capable of or agility, shoot faction shortest range ammo with auto canons at almost double range of rails optimal with faction AM is also something that needs to be brought in line. This ship can fit arties, a full active tank, prop mod/s full rigs for tank/mobility or dmg, drop 5 sentries on top and all of it without a single fitting module or sacrifice.
No other ship offers this much or abilities, fitting possibilities or fitting modules immunity. There's something obviously wrong with it. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 12:33:00 -
[133] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Everyone and his grand mother hates T3's for so many biased reasons it would take me at least 3 pages to name them all. Once upon a time there was a T3 frigate named Dramiel, you know what happened to it and why.
Right now there's only one T3 Battleship, can do everything another one does but better and faster, in fact can be so fast few cruisers can match its top speed this BS is capable of or agility, shoot faction shortest range ammo with auto canons at almost double range of rails optimal with faction AM is also something that needs to be brought in line. This ship can fit arties, a full active tank, prop mod/s full rigs for tank/mobility or dmg, drop 5 sentries on top and all of it without a single fitting module or sacrifice.
No other ship offers this much or abilities, fitting possibilities or fitting modules immunity. There's something obviously wrong with it.
What are you smoking?
There are no T3 frigates or battle ships....none Second mach can't fit 1400s without a fitting mod, nor can it drop 5 sentry drone.....
And it can only out run a couple cruisers, it goes 2550 ish overheated with a T2 mwd. That means there is a pretty long list of cruisers that can match exceed its top speed.....like every HAC now except eagle.
|
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
271
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 13:07:00 -
[134] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Verity Sovereign wrote:No other pirate BS is *best* (or nearly so) in every relevant catagory.
When you look at the projectile BS boats and want: * the fastest - get a mach * the highest DPS - get a mach * the best sniper - get a mach * the best shield tank - doesn't really matter get a mael/Fleet pest/Mach * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Fleet phoon/Mach * Want a drone boat? well, angel isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a mach
But for hybrid BS boats: * the fastest - get a Navy Mega, but doesn't really matter, the Vindi is very close * the highest DPS - get a Vindi * the best sniper - get a Rokh or N mega * the best shield tank - get a rokh, after that, doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get a Vindi/N Mega/Hyperion * Want a drone boat? well, serpentis isn't for you, but you can field a flight of lights and 4 sentries with a Vindi, but the N mega will field a full flight of sentries,with room to spare and the N domi will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries * Want a webbing brawler - get a Vindi
For laser boats:
* the fastest - get a Navy Apoc * the highest DPS - get a Nightmare or Abaddon * the best sniper - get a Navy Apoc * the best shield tank - get a Nightmare * the best armor tank - doesn't really matter get an Abaddon/Navy BS/Bhaalgorn * Want a drone boat? well, Laser boats are't for you, but you can field a full flight of lights and sentries with a Navy geddon, but the normal geddon will field the equivalent of 7.5 sentries * Want to web and neut your target - get a bhaal
For drone boats: * the fastest - get a Navy Domi * the highest DPS - get a Navy Domi * the best sniper - get a Domi * the best shield tank - get a Snake * the best armor tank - Get a N domi or Geddon * Want a drone boat? well, they are all pretty comparable, but the Domi with its dual drone bonus stands ahead of the rest. * Want to neut your target - get a geddon
The mach simply obsoletes every other projectile based BS for every purpose. Its got the best range, the best DPS, and the best speed - combined with a more or less equal tank (perhaps superior when sig and speed are factored in). That is an OP combination.
None of the other pirate BSs even come close. If the Mach doesn't get a heavy nerf, then the other Pirate BSs need a heavy buff. (for the record, TE changes don't count as a nerf to machs, since they also equall nerfed ever other projectile and blasterboat, and even the rail and lasers boats were nerfed a bit by it) You are nuts if you think a mach can fit close to the tank that a maelstrom can, and its rivaled by a fleet pest in the armor category.....easily. Again not the machs issue CCP jacked up Tempest when they rebalance.....which we warned them about, but than again you are making unfair comparisons. So far as projectiles go mach only tops maelstrom by about 200 dps in mission trim, the issue being the maelstrom it's just a big slow brick. Why does mach in validate "all projectile" ships, but Vindi does not? Really a vindi makes a mega look like a toy, and it can flat out tank a navy mega, it has a bigger buffer, bigger dps and ungodly web bonus. But vindi is fine you are making a plainly biased statement.
Since when does the vindi out tank the Hyperion or speed tank better than the Megathron navy issue?
"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Lilliana Stelles
894
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 13:14:00 -
[135] - Quote
The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? Incarna from 2009. 3 Years later and what we have doesn't look half as good as this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
531
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 13:29:00 -
[136] - Quote
Well, if you are talking PvEing with local reps, then sure, but if you're talking buffer, they're pretty much the same.
And I didn't say the Vindi speed tanks better than the N Mega (I specifically pointed out that the N mega is faster)
FWIW, I think the Vindi is in a good spot - although I'm not sure it deserves the very limited targeting range (sure, its supposed to excel in the close range role, but why can't it still do OK in longer range applications without that gimp). I'm not trying to argue the Vindi is OP'd
I want the NM/Bhaal/Snake buffed, the Vindi to remain more or less the same, and the Mach to get nerfed (FWIW, I have all of them, and 2 of my toons fly a mach - just finished projectile V on one of them yesterday) |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1214
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 13:33:00 -
[137] - Quote
Onictus wrote:What are you smoking?
Nothing special, regular Camel pack, reducing thou. Sports and tobacco don't go really well together. And you?
Quote:There are no T3 frigates or battle ships....none
Indeed but in fact those Angel ships are so good, everyone and his cat call them T3 ships. Search function doesn't always work for me but I can google, well sometimes at least.
Quote:Second mach can't fit 1400s without a fitting mod, nor can it drop 5 sentry drone.....
Indeed, however I never said 1400's, I said arties and as far as I know 1200's are not really pulse lasers amirite? Where you're right is you can't drop the 5 sentries because of bandwidth but you can still have a flight of lights on top of 4 gardes dishing 240dps, or another sentry in case you loose one.
This is a terrible fit, really horrible we can agree on that but lets say I want to peeveepee with cheapo fit: - if I want to fit 120k EHP tank, dish 950dps without a single fitting mod and without ANY faction mod: I can !!
[Machariel lol]
Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Thermic Dissipation Field II EM Ward Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Bouncer II x4 Hornet EC-300 x5
Even added a drone dmg module for giggles but could put a nano instead and raise the 1550m/s top speed a bit, like give it racing tires. Now that you got the gist of the main "thing", I'll let you play with pyfa/eft and figure out the numbers you can get with faction/DED stuff. Once you start pimp a bit of it you can fit 1400's T2 for +13K alpha 1050+ dps and still keep over 125K EHP (omni) or 135 vs lasers (depends on tank mods of course, I just took cheapo Pith C-Types), eventually you might need a 3 or 5% pg implant depending on what you choose but in the end what it matters is that if you want you can, with another BS you can't.
Onictus wrote:And it can only out run a couple cruisers, it goes 2550 ish overheated with a T2 mwd. That means there is a pretty long list of cruisers that can match exceed its top speed.....like every HAC now except eagle.
Waw, 2550m/s. If I fit my ships for pvp I actually have none of them able to do this speed except frigs or my Cynabal, and now Vagabond. This is the point: if you fit your Mach for pvp you can push it to almost 2km/s still, no other battleship can do so and still have a full fit without a single fitting module or rigs for this, Mach all it needs is a couple nanos, add an overdrive and your 2500mark gets burn easily.
Now we can also start making active tank PVE fits, it's even more funny to see how better it becomes as soon as you start pimp it. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 13:43:00 -
[138] - Quote
Edit: sometimes I misread things "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
514
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 14:15:00 -
[139] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:
Since when does the vindi out tank the Hyperion or speed tank better than the Megathron navy issue?
Speed Tank? Are you kidding? With armor tanked battleships? Blowing your sig into a capital territory doesn't exactly make for a speed tanker.
You can nano them (in fact I have nano-hype sitting around somewhere). But you are talking a difference of 4m/s difference in base speeds, so that is negligible speed advantage, the N mega is more agile but has less buffer. Then again after putting a couple plates and tirmarking them that is kind a false economy you are only going to get into the 1400m/s range anyway.
If you are doing anything but active armor with a hype the vidi a better choice all around and even then the tracking bonus makes a Vidi a better turret boat then hype between the N mega the Vindi is going to better damage generally, the ROF bonus on the N mega doesn't quite catch to Vindi's raw damage.
Not to mention that active armor battleships are kind of a niche thing, not for the least of reason is that it takes a single ship with a neut and you begin the race, your cap boosters against their DPS. Of course with the changes last patch it my be worth revisiting Hyperion, but I don't really need another battleship to cart around. They are a pain in the butt to move when you can only get two per carrier load. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1217
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 14:24:00 -
[140] - Quote
Onictus wrote:They are a pain in the butt to move when you can only get two per carrier load.
This is something we can agree together in this thread and I'm not joking at all, we need bigger ship hangars in our regular carriers. But for Mach, I still have to disagree about. All I want is this ship to get an agility/mass nerf, the 10% fall off to become a 5% fall off and it will be ok with rest of fittings abilities etc.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
|
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 14:29:00 -
[141] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Drake Doe wrote:
Since when does the vindi out tank the Hyperion or speed tank better than the Megathron navy issue?
Speed Tank? Are you kidding? With armor tanked battleships? Blowing your sig into a capital territory doesn't exactly make for a speed tanker. You can nano them (in fact I have nano-hype sitting around somewhere). But you are talking a difference of 4m/s difference in base speeds, so that is negligible speed advantage, the N mega is more agile but has less buffer. Then again after putting a couple plates and tirmarking them that is kind a false economy you are only going to get into the 1400m/s range anyway. If you are doing anything but active armor with a hype the vidi a better choice all around and even then the tracking bonus makes a Vidi a better turret boat then hype between the N mega the Vindi is going to better damage generally, the ROF bonus on the N mega doesn't quite catch to Vindi's raw damage. Not to mention that active armor battleships are kind of a niche thing, not for the least of reason is that it takes a single ship with a neut and you begin the race, your cap boosters against their DPS. Of course with the changes last patch it my be worth revisiting Hyperion, but I don't really need another battleship to cart around. They are a pain in the butt to move when you can only get two per carrier load. Of course the hype will always do bad as a passive armor tanker, simply because it's not meant to fly that way. Also, the lower base sig makes for less sig bloom with a mwd and more damage negated with an Ab, not to mention the lower mass making the speed difference grow with prop mods on. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
514
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 14:52:00 -
[142] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:
Indeed, however I never said 1400's, I said arties and as far as I know 1200's are not really pulse lasers amirite? Where you're right is you can't drop the 5 sentries because of bandwidth but you can still have a flight of lights on top of 4 gardes dishing 240dps, or another sentry in case you loose one.
This is a terrible fit, really horrible we can agree on that but lets say I want to peeveepee with cheapo fit: - if I want to fit 120k EHP tank, dish 950dps without a single fitting mod and without ANY faction mod: I can !!
[Machariel lol]
Damage Control II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Tracking Enhancer II Tracking Enhancer II Drone Damage Amplifier II
Prototype 100MN Microwarpdrive I Thermic Dissipation Field II EM Ward Field II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction
1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L 1200mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP L Heavy Diminishing Power System Drain I
Large Anti-Kinetic Screen Reinforcer I Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Core Defense Field Extender I
Bouncer II x4 Hornet EC-300 x5
Ok so 120k Ehp, a cap that last for barely 80 second (slightly worse with the meta MWD) and even then you can't use the range afforded by the hull because macharial sensor strength is crap, it only locks for 77km without a SeBo which sort of defeats the purpose of the nasty sniper boat.
This is more typical of a PvP fit
[Machariel, Mach]
7x 800mm Repeating Artillery II (Barrage L) Heavy Unstable Power Fluctuator I
100MN Microwarpdrive II Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I (Navy Cap Booster 800) EM Ward Amplifier II Adaptive Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
2x Tracking Enhancer II 3x Republic Fleet Gyrostabilizer 2x Nanofiber Internal Structure II
2x Large Core Defense Field Extender I Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II
4x Garde II 5x Hobgoblin II
eHP: LOL a whopping 78k 1065DPS (I usually use three TEsm but for the sake of argument) VERY dependant on that cap booster, 90 seconds of cap without it top speed 2629 overheated (which makes it all worth while) and an 8.26s align with the MWD on It ***** and gits
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Even added a drone dmg module for giggles but could put a nano instead and raise the 1550m/s top speed a bit, like give it racing tires. Now that you got the gist of the main "thing", I'll let you play with pyfa/eft and figure out the numbers you can get with faction/DED stuff. Once you start pimp a bit of it you can fit 1400's T2 for +13K alpha 1050+ dps and still keep over 125K EHP (omni) or 135 vs lasers (depends on tank mods of course, I just took cheapo Pith C-Types), eventually you might need a 3 or 5% pg implant depending on what you choose but in the end what it matters is that if you want you can, with another BS you can't.
Yes, because when PvPing with a billion isk hull, I always spend more billions pimp fitting it? You can do the 1400mm blap with a Meal or Tempest, for a 1/4 of the price and it works well enough, in fact Mael hits harder if you can keep you target in short range ammo territory, if you want to get fancy a shield tanked Fleet Pest can fill the same roll, its alpha is "only 11000 with short range faction.
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Waw, 2550m/s. If I fit my ships for pvp I actually have none of them able to do this speed except frigs or my Cynabal, and now Vagabond. This is the point: if you fit your Mach for pvp you can push it to almost 2km/s still, no other battleship can do so and still have a full fit without a single fitting module or rigs for this, Mach all it needs is a couple nanos, add an overdrive and your 2500mark gets burn easily.
Go for it, so again, after two nano's and an overdrive there goes your damage and/or a good chunk of your range, not to mention that you only have enough room for 4 low slot weapon mods, your eHP is down 30%, and you MUST fit a cap booster so you only get a three slot tank.
....and I have used my mach in PvP. Have you used one?
For the rest of have scimitars that are faster than dual nano-machs, everyone does, I've had a scimi start pulling away while I was chasing it, his issue that he wasn't as fast to the overheat. The list of cruisers that can run with one is pretty long, Arbi, Nvex, Nomen, ...pretty sure a nano-curse can, fleet stabber, stabber, Onerios ..I can't imagine when you would fit one that way, but it has the base speed...vaga and cynaball of course, diemost, sac, ceb, ..I think ishtar, Munnins are in the ballpark...I think 2400(ish) overheated, fleet scythe, belicose (doesn't even need a nano, just a MWD and an overheat button)
Need I go on?
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Now we can also start making active tank PVE fits, it's even more funny to see how better it becomes as soon as you start
Giggle worthy. It PvEs too good is not a concern for ship balance. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
514
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 14:55:00 -
[143] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote: Of course the hype will always do bad as a passive armor tanker, simply because it's not meant to fly that way. Also, the lower base sig makes for less sig bloom with a mwd and more damage negated with an Ab, not to mention the lower mass making the speed difference grow with prop mods on.
You may note that Hyperion has a 7th low slot now, and generous mids. It can buffer tank if you need it to....and it has a rather large sig to start with its 100 more than a mega...any mega..and 80m larger than a Vindi. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 15:47:00 -
[144] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Drake Doe wrote: Of course the hype will always do bad as a passive armor tanker, simply because it's not meant to fly that way. Also, the lower base sig makes for less sig bloom with a mwd and more damage negated with an Ab, not to mention the lower mass making the speed difference grow with prop mods on.
You may note that Hyperion has a 7th low slot now, and generous mids. It can buffer tank if you need it to....and it has a rather large sig to start with its 100 more than a mega...any mega..and 80m larger than a Vindi. Sorry but I forgot to mention that I'm referring to the navy Megathron in the second sentence. The hype can be buffer fit, but like with the maelstrom , it shines with active set ups. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
249
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 15:56:00 -
[145] - Quote
I think part of the problem is that in addition to being basically a large cruiser, it has a set of bonuses that are universally useful.
Most other ships have at least one bonus that is situationally useful...for example, active tank bonuses, web bonuses, target painter bonuses, micro jump drive bonuses (lolmarauders) ....even tracking and resist bonuses, in the case of sniping platforms. All of those things come in handy some of the time, but not all of it. But with the machariel, in addition to it being a big cruiser with battleship tank, there is not a single situation where its bonuses do not come in handy. As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%. thhief ghabmoef |
Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc. The Volition Cult
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:16:00 -
[146] - Quote
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%.
What about the gallente bonus being to drone speed? You don't really need falloff if you have fast drones anyway. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:17:00 -
[147] - Quote
Onictus wrote: Really a vindi makes a mega look like a toy.
this made me lol |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:19:00 -
[148] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore?
this please!
|
Diesel47
Appetite 4 Destruction
899
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:19:00 -
[149] - Quote
All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. " |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:28:00 -
[150] - Quote
Matthias Thullmann wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%. What about the gallente bonus being to drone speed? You don't really need falloff if you have fast drones anyway. That would be relevant if all drones moved "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
|
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
232
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:42:00 -
[151] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please! Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible. |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard Brothers of Tangra
322
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 16:44:00 -
[152] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. "
All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed.
P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:21:00 -
[153] - Quote
tbh i dont really care if it gets nerfed anymore... ill just get a vargur....
that being said i dont see how the machariel makes such a dire difference to the game.
Ive lived in hisec mostly and rarely seen machariels
Ive lived in null sec for a short time (3 months maybe?) and the only mach i heard about was one that my alliance mates found ratting and blew up.
(But omg wait its a machariel cant it just fly away? Guess not sry)
Its not as if we were gettting harrassed by fleets of machariels everyday becuase they are the go to ship for everything in eve is it?
Ive never even seen a mach fleet.
sry I tell a small lie another member of our alliance had an officer fit 1600? dps mach that could not break the tank on a near perfect skilled rattler. (but wait its a mach cant it just....no it couldnt)
its a rarely used ship as it is. If its SOOO excellent why isnt everyone and their mother sporting a machariel?
|
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
515
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:25:00 -
[154] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:
You may note that Hyperion has a 7th low slot now, and generous mids. It can buffer tank if you need it to....and it has a rather large sig to start with its 100 more than a mega...any mega..and 80m larger than a Vindi.
Sorry but I forgot to mention that I'm referring to the navy Megathron in the second sentence. The hype can be buffer fit, but like with the maelstrom , it shines with active set ups.[/quote]
Except that active tanks only really shine in small gang, and you need to get....excessive....with active armor to tank more than a couple ships long enough to kill anything.
....and then....neuts |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
83
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:28:00 -
[155] - Quote
I have never seen a title as likely to get the nerf bat's attention. If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:29:00 -
[156] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:I have never seen a title as likely to get the nerf bat's attention.
:( |
Lilliana Stelles
894
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:30:00 -
[157] - Quote
Goldensaver wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please! Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible.
IMO the rebalance hasn't exactly made the universe better. It's made it feel much more dumbed-down and themeparky with every ship having a clear role, and has moved some of the ships that formerly stood out into the realm of mediocrity. If we keep going in this direction you'll start seeing "LF HEALZ FOR LOWSEC RAID" popping up in jita local.
If any ships should be allowed to maintain their lore and flavor, it should be those with Jovian design.
The greatest nerf to the Mach has already happened: It's size. It used to be 30% larger before the V3. It's already lost one of its most unique attributes.
It's damage projection will be outclassed by marauders come winter. Considering the new Kronos will be able to hit out to 40km with NEUTRON BLASTERS, autocannons will become third-class weapons.
And it's certainly not the tankiest. It can't compete with the Maelstrom or Abaddon without some serious bling.
ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II. My only suggestion to further balance it might be to increase it's build cost with some exotic extra materials. Incarna from 2009. 3 Years later and what we have doesn't look half as good as this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n41s1Iox18A |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:33:00 -
[158] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please!
Not only is this a terrible idea, it also completely disregards the actual lore you are bastardizing to make your case.
Quote: While its utilitarian look may not give much of an indication, many are convinced that the Machariel is based on an ancient Jovian design uncovered by the Angel Cartel in one of their extensive exploratory raids into uncharted territory some years ago.
"Many are convinced" is no excuse to completely ignore game balance. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:36:00 -
[159] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please! Not only is this a terrible idea, it also completely disregards the actual lore you are bastardizing to make your case. Quote: While its utilitarian look may not give much of an indication, many are convinced that the Machariel is based on an ancient Jovian design uncovered by the Angel Cartel in one of their extensive exploratory raids into uncharted territory some years ago. "Many are convinced" is no excuse to completely ignore game balance.
oh right i guess thats why i see so many machs out there...
|
Diesel47
Appetite 4 Destruction
899
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 17:47:00 -
[160] - Quote
Mra Rednu wrote:Diesel47 wrote:All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. " All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed. P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about then. |
|
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
371
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:04:00 -
[161] - Quote
If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull.... |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:32:00 -
[162] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Drake Doe wrote:
Sorry but I forgot to mention that I'm referring to the navy Megathron in the second sentence. The hype can be buffer fit, but like with the maelstrom , it shines with active set ups.
Except that active tanks only really shine in small gang, and you need to get....excessive....with active armor to tank more than a couple ships long enough to kill anything. ....and then....neuts And then you bring passive ships, especially tankier ones such ad rokhs and abaddons. Neuts? Have fun being in somewhere in blaster range. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
KnightMaire kings
Phillips Sciences and Innovations The Wolfpack Nexus
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:50:00 -
[163] - Quote
the mach can put out to much dps to far out to be balenced and is op befor you put in its stuppid fast and stuped agile that is not even relevent to the argument all that matters is no other t2 or p faction bs can kill 1 end of convo it need to be nerfed or all others need a buff (rattler and nighmare (mabby balgorn)) |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
531
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:53:00 -
[164] - Quote
Onictus wrote:[in fact Mael hits harder if you can keep you target in short range ammo territory, if you want to get fancy a shield tanked Fleet Pest can fill the same roll, its alpha is "only 11000 with short range faction.
Confirming that the 8 ROF bonused guns of a Mael hit harder than the 7 ROF and 25% damage bonused guns of the Mach.
Also confirming that 7*1.25 = 8.75, which I confirm is less than 8
I also confirm that the 6 guns of a Fleet Pest will hit harder than the 7 guns of the mach that lose less applied damage due to falloff. |
Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
2799
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 18:58:00 -
[165] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull....
Last night my incursion fleet was so mach heavy I had to wait and wait to get into the action, FC was begging for Vindicators lol.
When I did get into fleet, I pooped on my friendly overview, the entire fleet was machs except the logi, 6 vindicators, a navy raven, a maelstrom and a Hyperion... |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
515
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:28:00 -
[166] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Onictus wrote:[in fact Mael hits harder if you can keep you target in short range ammo territory, if you want to get fancy a shield tanked Fleet Pest can fill the same roll, its alpha is "only 11000 with short range faction. Confirming that the 8 ROF bonused guns of a Mael hit harder than the 7 ROF and 25% damage bonused guns of the Mach. Also confirming that 7*1.25 = 8.75, which I confirm is less than 8 I also confirm that the 6 guns of a Fleet Pest will hit harder than the 7 guns of the mach that lose less applied damage due to falloff.
25% ROF is 33% damage, factoring penetrates, smashes, and wrecking shots my mistake.
....and I never said that the Pest hit harder, I said "only 11,000" which would imply that it was less than the mach's 13,000 quoted now wouldn't it? Not to mention there is room to slide a pair or cruise launchers onto a Fleet Pest, so 9500 some odd for the mael and more like 14,000 for the mach.
For a 1/4 of the price, its not a terrible trade off, plus waiting for 1400s to cycle is like watching your beard grow. |
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
233
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:41:00 -
[167] - Quote
Lilliana Stelles wrote:Goldensaver wrote:Bastion Arzi wrote:Lilliana Stelles wrote:The machariel uses Jovian technology stolen by the Angel Cartel. Shouldn't it just be better because of in game lore? this please! Hell no, please. **** lore if it ruins gameplay. I like an immersive universe, but it doesn't make up for terrible balance. Your opinion is terrible. IMO the rebalance hasn't exactly made the universe better. It's made it feel much more dumbed-down and themeparky with every ship having a clear role, and has moved some of the ships that formerly stood out into the realm of mediocrity. If we keep going in this direction you'll start seeing "LF HEALZ FOR LOWSEC RAID" popping up in jita local. If any ships should be allowed to maintain their lore and flavor, it should be those with Jovian design. The greatest nerf to the Mach has already happened: It's size. It used to be 30% larger before the V3. It's already lost one of its most unique attributes. It's damage projection will be outclassed by marauders come winter. Considering the new Kronos will be able to hit out to 40km with NEUTRON BLASTERS, autocannons will become third-class weapons. And it's certainly not the tankiest. It can't compete with the Maelstrom or Abaddon without some serious bling. ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II. My only suggestion to further balance it might be to increase it's build cost with some exotic extra materials.
I'll agree that the balance hasn't made things perfect, but I would say it made things much better.
Pre-tiericide: "I want to fly a (Kestrel, Atron, Punisher, Merlin, frigate that isn't Rifter). I'd better just forget this and fly a Rifter." "Thrasher is best Dessie." "Cruisers are trash, and the Rupture is the king of trash." "Better fly a Drake or Cane."
I think the only ship class for which tiers worked was BS's because it left a significantly cheaper option in the BS class where the cost finally became important enough to want a wide spread of options. Everything else was a case of "pick this or die".
Post-tiericide: Fly what you want, some are better than others, and some are pretty situation dependent, but you actually have choices, and it's more player skill dependent than before.
Lilliana Stelles wrote: ISK is a balancing factor, regardless of if people say otherwise. If it wasn't, officer mods would have the same stats as tech II.
No. ISK isn't a balancing factor. Method of acquisition is. We the players set the ISK value based on supply (method of acquisition) and demand (based on stats of the module). If Officer mods had stats on par with TII they'd cost an arbitrary amount based on how many people want to fit their ship thematically (e.g. Estamel's Raven). They would still cost more due to the low supply, but due to the relatively low demand they wouldn't cost as much as now. |
Matthias Thullmann
Dynatron Inc. The Volition Cult
11
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:46:00 -
[168] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Matthias Thullmann wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%. What about the gallente bonus being to drone speed? You don't really need falloff if you have fast drones anyway. That would be relevant if all drones moved
Well the projectile bonus is irrelevant if you use hybrid too... just use drones that move (heavies etc). If the fit is sentry it impacts the DPS somewhat tho.
Better they nerf that than bring the speed down to 800m/s with mwd. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.16 19:54:00 -
[169] - Quote
Jenn aSide wrote:Morrigan LeSante wrote:If you rarely see Machs in high sec, I suggest you move to a mission hub. You'd think they were 500isk per hull.... Last night my incursion fleet was so mach heavy I had to wait and wait to get into the action, FC was begging for Vindicators lol. When I did get into fleet, I pooped on my friendly overview, the entire fleet was machs except the logi, 6 vindicators, a navy raven, a maelstrom and a Hyperion...
cool party. are incursions fleets of this type done a lot? |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
533
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:32:00 -
[170] - Quote
Onictus wrote:25% ROF is 33% damage, factoring penetrates, smashes, and wrecking shots my mistake.
If you are talking DPS and not alpha, but that is still completely irrelevant, because the mach gets the same ROF bonus (without BS even being trained to V). 8 guns with a 25% rof bonus vs 7 guns with a 25% rof bonus and a 25% damage bonus.
Your claim that the mael hits harder is just plain wrong. The mach out DPSs it, and out alphas it. And becuase projectiles mostly operate in falloff, the machs falloff bonus leads to even more applied DPS. And because the mach is faster, by active piloting, you can lower the traversal between you and your target even more, leading to even more applied damage.
You can keep trying, but its futile, no other projectile boat comes close to dealing as much damage as the mach. Nor do any come close in speed. And you want to claim that isk or ~10% ehp difference balances this.... sure, whatever |
|
Krullon
nul-li-fy Nulli Secunda
10
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 06:51:00 -
[171] - Quote
LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day! |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
533
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 09:00:00 -
[172] - Quote
Krullon wrote:LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day!
Translation:
Dear CCP, I fly the mach because it is OP'd. Please keep it OP'd so I don't have to consider any other BS, and I have the best BS for nearly all situations. |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard Brothers of Tangra
323
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 19:16:00 -
[173] - Quote
Diesel47 wrote:Mra Rednu wrote:Diesel47 wrote:All I hear is "I've never flown the mach b4 but my drake once got raped by an faction fit mach, nerf please. " All I see is desperate souls clutching at straws hoping the Mach won't get nerfed. P.s never flown a Mach or a Drake. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about then.
Still more than you I'd wager. |
Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
20
|
Posted - 2013.09.17 22:41:00 -
[174] - Quote
Machariel & cynabal have been waiting a well deserved nerf bat strike for quite some times now. https://twitter.com/folkvangrcorp GÇö Freyja's space log. |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
868
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 05:12:00 -
[175] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Krullon wrote:LEAVE the MACH ALONE. Thank you and good day! Translation: Dear CCP, I fly the mach because it is OP'd. Please keep it OP'd so I don't have to consider any other BS, and I have the best BS for nearly all situations.
Theres lots of good posts here explaining why thats not exactly the case.
Out of the 4 empires, it really only excels in Minmatar for PvE. It really Only Excels in small gang PvP, and certainly not a small gang of Machs. Its an Angel killer. Let it kill Angels. Give it a slight agility penalty and be done with it. Dont make it less powerful than an RS.
Go do the Assault in a TFI, RS, and Mach. Mach will come in last place. The TFI isnt even pirate. Run it in a RNI just for ***** and giggles. Watch it lose. Then Run it in a Dominix and watch it tie at best.
Go run a wormhole with it. Run it in a WR and time it against an Armageddon. 2nd Place out of 2.
Go solo PvP it vs a VIdi. Watch your ISKies go bye bye as you get web ****** in the Jove-hole.
Its great, it's not the best ship hands down. It needs a small tweak, not a nerf. Eve is Real |
Teinyhr
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
213
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 08:08:00 -
[176] - Quote
But what if the Machariel isn't OP, but the other pirate BS are underpowered? |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
534
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 09:46:00 -
[177] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:Go do the Assault in a TFI, RS, and Mach. Mach will come in last place. The TFI isnt even pirate. Run it in a RNI just for ***** and giggles. Watch it lose. Then Run it in a Dominix and watch it tie at best.
Go run a wormhole with it. Run it in a WR and time it against an Armageddon. 2nd Place out of 2.
Go solo PvP it vs a VIdi. Watch your ISKies go bye bye as you get web ****** in the Jove-hole.
Its great, it's not the best ship hands down. It needs a small tweak, not a nerf.
Right, the TFI (pest I assume, there's two that start with T), which has 16.67% less gun DPS, less speed, less sig res, less drones, and a bit weaker cap is going to finish it faster.
The NM is only good in amarr space... the Mach can load EMP, fit an armor tank, and run in amarr space well (armor tank not even needed, but native resists do help), or it can load fusion, fit a shield tank, and run in minmatar space - or load PP/titanium sabots (though the range/tracking is rarely needed), and run in gallente/caldari space.
If we're talking the vargur, then the mach is less versatile in PvE
For PvP, the mach is vastly preferred over other BSs, though the vindi does have its role, as does a bhaal. A snake may present a tough target for a solo, but I think we'll all agree the NM is the worst of the pirate boats at PvP. Its not even that good at PvE, because its tank type (shields) is weak to its damage type - and NPC rats often have the same damage type weakness as damage type dealt. It tanks best against Angel/Minmatar NPC, but DPSs best against sansha/BR. For killing rats the fastest, you'd go against Sansha/BR, which often cap neut, and the NM is very vulnerable to such things
Teinyhr wrote:But what if the Machariel isn't OP, but the other pirate BS are underpowered? Yes, I agree, the mach could escape a nerf if the other pirate BSs get buffed appropriately - especially the NM and snake. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
521
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 11:54:00 -
[178] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote: For PvP, the mach is vastly preferred over other BSs, though the vindi does have its role, as does a bhaal.
Vastly prefered?
I've died to a mach exactly one time the entire time I've been playing and I was sniped out of a perch from over 200km in a ceptor.
If they are so prefered you sure as **** don't see them much.
|
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
535
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 12:27:00 -
[179] - Quote
Its still a shiny 1 bill hull that people want as a kill-mail, and thus gets your primaried.
But ask yourself... how many times did you die to a Nightmare? A snake? a Bhaal? a vindi?
I went to Eve uni's killboard (since I can search by ship type there)
32 pages of results when a mach was on the killmail
23 pages of results for a vindi
14 pages of results for a Bhaal
7 pages for a Rattlesnake
5 pages for a Nightmare
The machs are out there getting on a lot more killmails than any other ship type, as far as I can tell. The Vindi is doing a decent job, the Bhaal as well, but the Rattler and Mare... LOL |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
522
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 19:20:00 -
[180] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Its still a shiny 1 bill hull that people want as a kill-mail, and thus gets your primaried.
But ask yourself... how many times did you die to a Nightmare? A snake? a Bhaal? a vindi?
I went to Eve uni's killboard (since I can search by ship type there)
32 pages of results when a mach was on the killmail
23 pages of results for a vindi
14 pages of results for a Bhaal
7 pages for a Rattlesnake
5 pages for a Nightmare
The machs are out there getting on a lot more killmails than any other ship type, as far as I can tell. The Vindi is doing a decent job, the Bhaal as well, but the Rattler and Mare... LOL
Eve Uni?
Yes, that bastion of skilled high SP pilots with both the skills and the money run around in billion isk hulls......also since they tend to blob around low sec they are about the perfect target for pirates that DO have access to that sort of asset. In fact I sat there in a cov-ops and watched two SCUM (I think it was) go 2 on 15 cyna's one kitchensink drakes and canes and whatnot back before all of the rebalances and those to pirates killed 9-10 ships for the few survivors got smart and warped away.
.....not the best litmus. |
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1222
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 19:36:00 -
[181] - Quote
Matthias Thullmann wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Matthias Thullmann wrote:Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:As long as its guns are firing, its bonuses are being used 100%. What about the gallente bonus being to drone speed? You don't really need falloff if you have fast drones anyway. That would be relevant if all drones moved Well the projectile bonus is irrelevant if you use hybrid too... just use drones that move (heavies etc). If the fit is sentry it impacts the DPS somewhat tho. Better they nerf that than bring the speed down to 800m/s with mwd.
Thing is most people asking to bring Cynabals and Machariels in line with other ships its not really their dps but exactly agility/speed 2 ship categories under. Hell change the fall off for tracking instead, its still a gallente bonus and far more useful in this hull without making it stupid able to shoot shortest range ammo with ACs further away than it can target.
Speed/agility adjustment and it should be ok.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
The Bounty Collector
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 19:44:00 -
[182] - Quote
So the confirmed changes seem a bit drastic. -3 turrets, 65% reduction in overall speed, and change of falloff to drone damage/hitpoints.
How can we stop this?? |
Goldensaver
Personal Defense LtD.
234
|
Posted - 2013.09.18 23:15:00 -
[183] - Quote
The Bounty Collector wrote:So the confirmed changes seem a bit drastic. -3 turrets, 65% reduction in overall speed, and change of falloff to drone damage/hitpoints.
How can we stop this??
First up, that's far too drastic.
Second: Confirmed? Who confirmed it? Where? |
Mra Rednu
Black Watch Guard Brothers of Tangra
324
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 07:33:00 -
[184] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Eve Uni?
......also since they tend to blob around low sec they are about the perfect target for pirates that DO have access to that sort of asset.
.....not the best litmus.
Lol wut ? |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
550
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 08:45:00 -
[185] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Eve Uni?
Yes, that bastion of skilled high SP pilots with both the skills and the money run around in billion isk hulls.....
I invite you to use any other killboard to look at the relative number of kills from Machs/Vindis/Bhaals/NMs/Snakes, and prove me wrong.
The mach is vastly preferred over other pirate BS's for PvP. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
522
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 08:59:00 -
[186] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Onictus wrote:Eve Uni?
Yes, that bastion of skilled high SP pilots with both the skills and the money run around in billion isk hulls..... I invite you to use any other killboard to look at the relative number of kills from Machs/Vindis/Bhaals/NMs/Snakes, and prove me wrong. The mach is vastly preferred over other pirate BS's for PvP.
You need to data mine to discover this, it was pointed out pages ago.
Check the market camper......I mean hub guys......bet you find more vindis there
|
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
373
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 11:20:00 -
[187] - Quote
The Bounty Collector wrote:So the confirmed changes seem a bit drastic. -3 turrets, 65% reduction in overall speed, and change of falloff to drone damage/hitpoints.
How can we stop this??
By not making stuff up? |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
554
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 12:47:00 -
[188] - Quote
Onictus wrote:You need to data mine to discover this, it was pointed out pages ago.
I checked this thread, found nothing.
Basically, you are not willing to provide any data to counter mine, that the Mach is vastly preferred for PvP relative to any other pirate BS (though the Vindi makes a decent showing). |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
513
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 13:22:00 -
[189] - Quote
Onictus wrote:You need to data mine to discover this, it was pointed out pages ago.
Check the market camper......I mean hub guys......bet you find more vindis there Not quite sure what are you saying. There may be more vindis, but that doesn't mean they are more used for PvP.
Honestly, I do get why Machs are preferred by some people out there who used them for solo-ish aor small group PvP. Basically, they aren't sitting ducks that get caught by AB'ing cruisers (yes, I'm exaggerating here; doesn't change the fact that speed of most BSs is irrelevant) like other battleships, and they can be used as kiters - for some time it seems it was common suggestion that you either can kite, or you don't undock for non-something-hugging (as in: WH aperture hugging, station games etc.) PvP.
For quite some time "Mach vs another BS" was basically the same as "SFI vs another cruiser".
Vindis and Bhaals won't fall into obscurity as long as they have their (almost) unique definig bonuses. NM and Rattlers, on the other hand, are generic boats with no reserved niche and thus they must be really really good at something so that paying the price could be justified. |
Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
522
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 14:10:00 -
[190] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Onictus wrote:You need to data mine to discover this, it was pointed out pages ago. I checked this thread, found nothing. Basically, you are not willing to provide any data to counter mine, that the Mach is vastly preferred for PvP relative to any other pirate BS (though the Vindi makes a decent showing).
Mainly because I don't care enough to bother. I don't feel like digging through half of new Edens kills, I simply don't care that much.
I told you where to look hey cracking kiddo.
|
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Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:05:00 -
[191] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Onictus wrote:You need to data mine to discover this, it was pointed out pages ago. I checked this thread, found nothing. Basically, you are not willing to provide any data to counter mine, that the Mach is vastly preferred for PvP relative to any other pirate BS (though the Vindi makes a decent showing).
so becuase its preferred it needs to be nerfed? |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 16:53:00 -
[192] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Verity Sovereign wrote:Onictus wrote:You need to data mine to discover this, it was pointed out pages ago. I checked this thread, found nothing. Basically, you are not willing to provide any data to counter mine, that the Mach is vastly preferred for PvP relative to any other pirate BS (though the Vindi makes a decent showing). so becuase its preferred it needs to be nerfed? If that's the case, it's far from a new scenario. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
871
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 18:01:00 -
[193] - Quote
People see what they wanna see. Dominix is on WAY more KM's than Mealstrom. Because the Mach is the only decent PvP projectile BS. I don't hear them crying nerf the Domi, although it is way more powerful in its class than the Mach is. Domi has had as many recent buffs as Mach has had nerfs. RS isn't on KM's? Boo friggin hoo, theres other drone boats that put out MORE DPS. Vindi isnt on KM's? Oh wait, theres 4 or 5 blaster boats with as much DPS as the Vindi for 1/5 the price. NM not on KM's? My fraking Armageddon gets as much DPS, although its not a laser boat ,there are comparable laser boats in the damage category with great tank for way less money. Eve is Real |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 18:14:00 -
[194] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:People see what they wanna see. Dominix is on WAY more KM's than Mealstrom. Because the Mach is the only decent PvP projectile BS. I don't hear them crying nerf the Domi, although it is way more powerful in its class than the Mach is. Domi has had as many recent buffs as Mach has had nerfs. RS isn't on KM's? Boo friggin hoo, theres other drone boats that put out MORE DPS. Vindi isnt on KM's? Oh wait, theres 4 or 5 blaster boats with as much DPS as the Vindi for 1/5 the price. NM not on KM's? My fraking Armageddon gets as much DPS, although its not a laser boat ,there are comparable laser boats in the damage category with great tank for way less money. You're not very attentive are you? The domi just took a range and tracking nerf. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
555
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 18:26:00 -
[195] - Quote
It not that its preferred, its why its preferred.
If something is overpowered, odds are that once people figure out how good it is, they will use it, by a large margin.
We're not talking a small preference here, as far as I can tell, its on more kill mails than the NM/Snake/Bhaal combined, and still has a nearly 2:1 lead over the vindi. For incursions, one of the best uses of these boats (as even if they do well in PvP, they are still a ~1 billion isk hull that many will want on their KB, and its still a hull that would get primary'd in larger engagements)- as its the best reliable ISK/hour in high sec - many fleets are saturated with Machs (as people on this thread have already attested to)
Vindis are rather high in demand now for incursions, due to the competitions in HQ sites, and that 2/3 of HQ sites involve a tower bash, and there's no better way to Vin a contest than to have vindicators firing void at point blank range onto a tower.
Meanwhile, the snake still finds itself competing with T1 BSs (domi), Bhaals don't have much PvE use (and judging by the KBs, less PvP use than machs), Nightmares find themselves as only incursion boats, where they are taken with a certain amount of disdain due to their slow speed and cap issues (cap chains... ewwww) |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1223
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 18:49:00 -
[196] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:If its SOOO excellent why isnt everyone and their mother sporting a machariel?
It requires a "bit" of isk investment which most null/low pvp fans are averse for a reason, risk involved, however if you lived in null for some time you'd already probably heard about some cloak Mach gang pounding rating carriers/lazy people for weeks in Goon space without getting caught simply because no one could, until some of them made a mistake.
Biggest nerf to Mach affecting this tactic arrived yet? -Tornados
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
33
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 21:58:00 -
[197] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:It requires a "bit" of isk investment which most null/low pvp fans are averse for a reason, risk involved, however if you lived in null for some time you'd already probably heard about some cloak Mach gang pounding rating carriers/lazy people for weeks in Goon space without getting caught simply because no one could, until some of them made a mistake.
omg is that isk cost being a balancing factor?
and no ive never heard of fleets of uncatchable machs but then ive only played the game for 9 months or so...
|
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1226
|
Posted - 2013.09.19 22:20:00 -
[198] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:It requires a "bit" of isk investment which most null/low pvp fans are averse for a reason, risk involved, however if you lived in null for some time you'd already probably heard about some cloak Mach gang pounding rating carriers/lazy people for weeks in Goon space without getting caught simply because no one could, until some of them made a mistake. omg is that isk cost being a balancing factor? and no ive never heard of fleets of uncatchable machs but then ive only played the game for 9 months or so...
Lets be honest for a second even it's not an Eve use plz, "cost is not a balancing factor"... well cost/effectiveness IS a fcking "good to use or crap" factor and this is undeniable and is always translated by masses using whatever awesome crap at the moment at massive numbers because ITS COST EFFECTIVE. And this has a price, the one that at one moment logs start showing stuff and the nerf hammer gets excited.
Sry but brought it as down as I could to make it simple to understand, seems I have no other choice to explain StuffGäó
Edit: about your 9mths Eve existance as Eve player this is probably why you haven't heard about it but Machs actually are used by some very rich players as ultimate gank/killing/harassing tools for a reason. Actually this ship name should really be changed for "Harasser" instead of Machariel because that's exactly what it is which should be the gaming area of Marauders !! *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
871
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 06:01:00 -
[199] - Quote
And Mega is the hull of choice for cost effective harassing ATM, again, people seeing what they want to see.
Using the logic presented in the above post its time to nerf the Mega, not the Mach. Eve is Real |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
373
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 06:24:00 -
[200] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:Verity Sovereign wrote:Onictus wrote:You need to data mine to discover this, it was pointed out pages ago. I checked this thread, found nothing. Basically, you are not willing to provide any data to counter mine, that the Mach is vastly preferred for PvP relative to any other pirate BS (though the Vindi makes a decent showing). so becuase its preferred it needs to be nerfed?
You're asking the wrong people, remember the Devs are the ones who have come out and said it's too powerful. This isnt a player driven witch hunt.
That a chunk of people in this thread agree isnt wholly relevant to your concern. |
|
James Baboli
Ferrous Infernum
15
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 16:32:00 -
[201] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote: Nightmares find themselves as only incursion boats, where they are taken with a certain amount of disdain due to their slow speed and cap issues (cap chains... ewwww)
Chaining tach fit NMs are the best sniper boat in PVE bar none. Can apply 900ish DPS to 120km against targets that are actively MWDing while orbiting, which is almost 35% better than any other ship. This is a big freaking deal in HQ communities as we seem to be comming up on a heavy contest season again.
Also, the mach is not particularly over generous, the issue is that the falloff of ACs is roughly 5% too high as a base, and so the 50% bonus to falloff make the projection curve almost flat for several dozen KM even after reaching falloff. That crazy bag FC with the silly things on the hull that shouldn't but just did. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 16:37:00 -
[202] - Quote
Cipher Jones wrote:And Mega is the hull of choice for cost effective harassing ATM, again, people seeing what they want to see. Using the logic presented in the above post its time to nerf the Mega, not the Mach. Quote:You're not very attentive are you? The domi just took a range and tracking nerf. It had 2 buffs and 1/4 of its 2nd buff taken away. Machs already been nerfed a lot harder than that.
Losing dps for application is hardly a buff, and what was the other buff? All it's had was it's bonuses changed, then reduced, which adds up to a nerf. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
26
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 17:04:00 -
[203] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:And Mega is the hull of choice for cost effective harassing ATM, again, people seeing what they want to see. Using the logic presented in the above post its time to nerf the Mega, not the Mach. Quote:You're not very attentive are you? The domi just took a range and tracking nerf. It had 2 buffs and 1/4 of its 2nd buff taken away. Machs already been nerfed a lot harder than that. Losing dps for application is hardly a buff, and what was the other buff? All it's had was it's bonuses changed, then reduced, which adds up to a nerf.
When you get as much of an application buff as the Domi did, it is an overall buff. Also being able to us Garde II's at the range they can now be used at and with the tracking they now have removes the need to step down to a lower DPS sentry drone a lot of the time. So your drones are doing more paper and real DPS than they did before. Removing the gun bonus is a slight nerf but considering the fitting possibilities it is not a huge deal. I could be wrong but I assume the vast majority of PvP Domi pilots consider it a gigantic buff.
As for the thread topic: Incursions are not, or at least shouldn't be the balancing argument for saying the Nightmare is as good as a Mach. In PvP(the traditional balance factor) the Mach is flat out better. |
Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Public Disorder.
272
|
Posted - 2013.09.20 19:43:00 -
[204] - Quote
Lucine Delacourt wrote:Drake Doe wrote:Cipher Jones wrote:And Mega is the hull of choice for cost effective harassing ATM, again, people seeing what they want to see. Using the logic presented in the above post its time to nerf the Mega, not the Mach. Quote:You're not very attentive are you? The domi just took a range and tracking nerf. It had 2 buffs and 1/4 of its 2nd buff taken away. Machs already been nerfed a lot harder than that. Losing dps for application is hardly a buff, and what was the other buff? All it's had was it's bonuses changed, then reduced, which adds up to a nerf. When you get as much of an application buff as the Domi did, it is an overall buff. Also being able to us Garde II's at the range they can now be used at and with the tracking they now have removes the need to step down to a lower DPS sentry drone a lot of the time. So your drones are doing more paper and real DPS than they did before. Removing the gun bonus is a slight nerf but considering the fitting possibilities it is not a huge deal. I could be wrong but I assume the vast majority of PvP Domi pilots consider it a gigantic buff. As for the thread topic: Incursions are not, or at least shouldn't be the balancing argument for saying the Nightmare is as good as a Mach. In PvP(the traditional balance factor) the Mach is flat out better. While everyone who originally used them as sentry boats before the change consider it a buff, it loses pure damage as a brawler, so again it's only gaining one aspect to lose viability in another role. While the tracking bonus does help heavies slightly, the bonus is tailored towards increasing the performance of sentries.
I agree 100% on your statement about the macherial and nightmare, because regardless of the nightmare being better at incursions (which I don't know if it's a true statement or not) isn't a good reason not to change it because being worse at a niche role doesn't make it balanced. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" ---Evernub-- |
Verity Sovereign
Sovereign Fleet Tax Shelter
559
|
Posted - 2013.09.21 07:02:00 -
[205] - Quote
James Baboli wrote:Chaining tach fit NMs are the best sniper boat in PVE bar none. Can apply 900ish DPS to 120km against targets that are actively MWDing while orbiting, which is almost 35% better than any other ship. This is a big freaking deal in HQ communities as we seem to be comming up on a heavy contest season again.
Also, the mach is not particularly over generous, the issue is that the falloff of ACs is roughly 5% too high as a base...
I'f like to see that fit... at those ranges, you're using aurora/IN standard (or even IN Infrared, depending on your TC setup), I'd like to see what sort of officer mods you're putting on to get 900 DPS out of tachs while using aurora or IN standard. What is your ship name on D scan btw?
Regarding contests, the fleets I see winning the most contests (unless arriving significantly late), only use NMs in the mid range regime, ie 40-70km, and only have the NMs help the machs with the 70km+ targets when the fleet comp for the day is clearing out the close range targets faster than the machs can take out the long range targets.
I don't know why you're talking about ACs with machs... have you looked at the falloff they have with Arty?
1400mm Arty machs have very flat falloffs. The mach is a great sniper boat - sure its targeting range is not all that much, but every incursion boat I see runs with a Sebo anyway - the NM needs one for better scan res, while the mach's got good scan res, and runs one for range.
Why have the NM's firing at long range, when they can be pouring out more DPS at close range using Gleam/IN multi/IN Gamma? |
Fettle
3
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 07:23:00 -
[206] - Quote
wooo! Late to this one. I hear the arguments for nerfing it, but how far do you wish it to go? It already took a slamming to it's damage projection and that takes a huge amount of wind out of it's sails since projectiles suffer from a steadily diminishing damage with falloff.
Further, there is something special about the pirate faction battleships (the ones that work as intended at least :p). The Machariel holds a wonderfully unique position of being a BS that can kite. Its tank isn't the greatest, but as a kiting ship you'd expect this. It should hold a relatively awesome speed, its defining factor. And as a kiting ship it needs projection. As it stands, the projection with Autos is still workable and forces Mach's to be closer to deliver Battleship damage... yes yes.... barrage still makes this quite OP, but hey, ceptors just got cooler. and with their baby sized sigs with mwd's on, makes me feel threatened by the little buggers.
Gone are the days of 'only a mach can catch a mach'. Stick a ceptor on and even if it gets neuted, certain talented fast tackle pilots fit a nos on to get the extra bit of cap needed for scram to re-engage. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
878
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 09:41:00 -
[207] - Quote
Literally Space Moses wrote:Now imagine if you were training for a supercarrier or titan. The tears when those get nerfed are going to be exquisite.
That happened alreday.. but peopel adapted. Both used to be WAAAAAY more powerful in the past. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
alexi turov
Neutronium Alchemist's
4
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 10:19:00 -
[208] - Quote
IIR, the Mach had been nerfed hard a couple of times in the past, so another trip to nerftown seems to be a normal part of the life cycle of this ship. Without seeing a devblog or patch notes, there's no way of knowing what will change, only that change will happen.
I, for one, hope that the extra 'engine' on top is turned into a smooth jazz generator as compensation for the removal of the speed/range/insert bonus here. |
Bastion Arzi
Dat Tax
53
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 10:55:00 -
[209] - Quote
im not really bothered anymore my mach is collecting dust now. |
Kitty Bear
Disturbed Friends Of Diazepam Disturbed Acquaintance
1003
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 10:59:00 -
[210] - Quote
Mathias Orsen wrote:sounds like Rumor to me.
nope has fozzie said that it needed readjusting downwards in performance
aka nerf
it's either one of the rebalance threads, or in a phantasm thread ... can't remember specifically which afaik the beating isn't expected to be too severe |
|
Akonnen
Birds of Prey Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 11:43:00 -
[211] - Quote
Enough with the Minmatar nerfs, some people don't understand how falloff works. Some people in CSM need to be bitchslapped, Amarr ppl in particular. Dramiel, Machariel, tracking enhancer's, What's next? Why did you nerf the dramiel but not the crow? Why do you nerf tracking enhancer's but it's ok for the NM to hit max dps (1000+) at 120km?
If you want to balance ships then don't listen to players and do it from the heart.
Also, falloff in space is silly. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12752
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 14:53:00 -
[212] - Quote
Bastion Arzi wrote:As the title says pls dont do this. I've heard rumours that a nerf is on the horizon. Is this true?
I have spent ages training for this ship and it would be a shame for all that training to go to waste....
PLEASE PLEASE dont nerf the mach.
What are you talkin about? We're going to make the Mach by far and away the best batleship in the game:
Special Ability: 25% bonus to ore compression
Minmatar Battleship Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Mining Laser amount per level Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to LMining Laser range per level
1 Kings 12:11
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
12752
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 14:54:00 -
[213] - Quote
alexi turov wrote:IIR, the Mach had been nerfed hard a couple of times in the past, so another trip to nerftown seems to be a normal part of the life cycle of this ship. Without seeing a devblog or patch notes, there's no way of knowing what will change, only that change will happen.
I, for one, hope that the extra 'engine' on top is turned into a smooth jazz generator as compensation for the removal of the speed/range/insert bonus here.
The mach got a pretty big buff in the pirate ships rebalance a few years ago.
1 Kings 12:11
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Ghost Phius
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
168
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 15:19:00 -
[214] - Quote
This is ALL bullshit until the "real offcial dev blog" hit the airwaves. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
32
|
Posted - 2013.12.05 15:33:00 -
[215] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:alexi turov wrote:IIR, the Mach had been nerfed hard a couple of times in the past, so another trip to nerftown seems to be a normal part of the life cycle of this ship. Without seeing a devblog or patch notes, there's no way of knowing what will change, only that change will happen.
I, for one, hope that the extra 'engine' on top is turned into a smooth jazz generator as compensation for the removal of the speed/range/insert bonus here. The mach got a pretty big buff in the pirate ships rebalance a few years ago.
You say that, but it still mines like ****. :O
Seriously though I don't have a large gripe with the machariel, I mean something has to be best right? Minmatar are built around nano just look at the falloff and low optimal on projectile weapons. You walk a thin line and profit or die. So what do you do make a AC boat without good movement-speed? Also makes it hard not to make them Overpowered or Underpowered, imho the mach isn't that horrible an eyesore compared to other ships, not worried about it, its been around. |
chaosgrimm
Universal Production and Networking Services
58
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Posted - 2013.12.05 19:29:00 -
[216] - Quote
I'm just going to add my prediction here: Machariel loses its falloff bonus.
Reasoning: * CCP mentioned they want to bring the mach more in line with the others. Neither the vindi nor nightmare get range bonus. * ytterbium mentioned in the marauder rebalancing thread that the role of marauders is to out tank and out project pirates, while the pirates have higher raw dmg and speed. * when ppl complained about the vargur vs the mach in terms of dmg / projection, ytterbium had mentioned that the mach was up for a nerf, seemingly being the justification. |
TomyLobo
U2EZ
115
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Posted - 2013.12.08 03:56:00 -
[217] - Quote
No need to get all worked up over nerfs, tbh. I used to and I can tell you that it isn't worth it. |
Trinkets friend
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
1235
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Posted - 2013.12.08 06:36:00 -
[218] - Quote
nerf the hell out of this thing. Seriously, it has more of everything than any other battleship, and more speed than most frigates. YOLO is the Carpe Diem of Gen Y http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Onictus
Silver Snake Enterprise Fatal Ascension
647
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Posted - 2013.12.08 06:46:00 -
[219] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:nerf the hell out of this thing. Seriously, it has more of everything than any other battleship, and more speed than most frigates.
ExceptL tank cap targeting range
little things like that.
P.S. If the mach is outrunning a frigate, you have some serious work to do on your fittings and skills. |
Marcus Walkuris
Aww yeahhh
54
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Posted - 2013.12.08 23:06:00 -
[220] - Quote
Onictus wrote:Trinkets friend wrote:nerf the hell out of this thing. Seriously, it has more of everything than any other battleship, and more speed than most frigates. ExceptL tank cap targeting range little things like that. P.S. If the mach is outrunning a frigate, you have some serious work to do on your fittings and skills.
I think you just fell into a spiky sarcasm trap, covered in sarcastic human poop-***** (ok feecies then..). Causing you horribly painful sarcastic infections. Luckily there is a sarcastic helicopter to take you back to base. But you sure just lost a sarcastic land-war in Asia. Because you didn't watch where you where going, and maybe never should've been there. |
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Izuru Hishido
Lethal Dosage. Violent Society
23
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Posted - 2013.12.10 07:39:00 -
[221] - Quote
As someone whose flown with/in machariels in PVE and PVP, I can vouch that the mach is just a little too good at its role. In agreement with what most people have said in this thread, it doesn't need a tremendous nerf, just a small one to overall DPS, or a slight tank nerf and everything is golden. That said, I'm going to move onto the 'issues' I've seen discussed.
Machs are fast. Yes, this isn't an issue, this is a feature for angel ships. Their primary use comes from being faster than every other ship in their class, but that said, they're easily outclassed by smaller ships, and even some slow recons. Unlike other ships of their class, they can be crippled by a simple jam, or in the case of amarr recons, by tracking disruption (I'll take this time to point out that out of all the faction BS, Machariels are the most vulnerable to TD.)
Even if the machs are fast, they don't do that much more DPS than any other faction battleship, with the notable exception being a truly effective PVP bhaalgorn. A mach's greatest benefit isn't its speed, its how agile it is in combat, so if a fast frigate can catch it without being picked off if the pilot isn't as skilled as any of his peers, he'll be able to dance around with the frigate until either he or the frigate gets raped by the inevitable backup one or the other has.
EVE is very much not a solo game, but the Mach does absolutely splendid in its role, which I have always interpreted to be 'small to medium sized harassment.' They're expensive, yes. They're skill intensive, yes. And if piloted by a complete lemming, a machariel is less than useless. Unlike most other battleships, you have to have at least some clue of what the hell you're doing otherwise you're going to become a liability rather than an asset to your gang, and I've seen mach gangs get skunked and raped by proper gangs on the other end of the spectrum. Machs don't hold any single advantage over everything that makes them invincible, but they do have a few extravagant benefits that do straddle the line with overpowered.
How do I think the mach should be nerfed to preserve its position but also to deal with the abundance of issues it has, even if those issues are only held by mediocre and rigid players? Honestly, I don't know. Perhaps adjustments to its speed, or its acceleration to prevent outrunning fast cruisers, maybe a slight filing off on the falloff bonus, or maybe, better yet, lowering the overall EHP. The mach to me screams that it is meant to hit very hard, very fast, and get the hell out while still being able to protect itself and other ships, so I don't think it needs or deserves a massive nerf. Do other ships underperform when compared to it? Yes.
Will the Mach always win any and every engagement? No. I think CCP started to stealth address some of these 'issues' with some of the other changes that were bemoaned at the time and raged against. Machs, unlike other faction battleships, have pitiful capacitors and are therefore extremely vulnerable to neuting. That means to me that a geddon might be a very bad match for a machariel pilot on his own or will be a threat with a moderately skilled pilot at the helm. Or, there are the new EAF changes to consider, or the new ceptor changes, and so on.
As for comparing the machs to other ships, no other ship has the same role as the mach on a battleship level, at least since the nerf of the nanophoon. That said, other battleships might be able to stand up to it or even kick the **** out of it at long or close range, but like I've said so many times, it all comes down to pilot skill. If you have a great pilot in a mach versus six **** pilots in a range of other ships, the mach will probably take one or two out before being able to retreat. If you have a **** mach pilot against mediocre or even decent pilots in a few other ships, then the mach will definitely be blown to bits. Its all about thought and situational awareness in EVE, which only experience can bring.
Then again, some experience might only bring whining since the other pilots won't want to put in the effort to learn how to best use what the hell they want to fly and will resort to scumbag tactics in order to get their kills. Whatever the case is, the Machariel does not deserve a huge nerf, but a slight rebalance. And comparing the Machariel to other faction battleships is ridiculous, as none of them are expected to perform in the same ways as the machariel. |
Miasmos
Aliastra Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2013.12.10 08:11:00 -
[222] - Quote
With the new marauders I think machariel is not that far out. The TE nerf hit it somewhat, and the niche of speed is refreshing.
Machariel could take this one nerf IMHO: GÇó drone bandwidth 25m3.
Cynabal same. |
marVLs
528
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Posted - 2013.12.10 08:22:00 -
[223] - Quote
I don't understand why CCP is trying to nerf all the BS as much as it's possible... it's a freaking BATTLESHIP FFS it should be powerfull like hell, especially pirate, T2 BS's...
I think Mach, Vindi are good, but Rattler and Nightmare should get just a tiny tiny buff for pvp possibilities. |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
893
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Posted - 2013.12.10 09:54:00 -
[224] - Quote
marVLs wrote:I don't understand why CCP is trying to nerf all the BS as much as it's possible... it's a freaking BATTLESHIP FFS it should be powerfull like hell, especially pirate, T2 BS's...
I think Mach, Vindi are good, but Rattler and Nightmare should get just a tiny tiny buff for pvp possibilities.
They are focusing as much as possible ( and I do not agree) on making new players feel they can fly ships as powerful as the old players). "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Austin McLaren
Addicts Anonymous
18
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Posted - 2013.12.10 18:32:00 -
[225] - Quote
Many for and against arguments here and my opinion is the Macha could do with some give and take re balance no nerf or buff. In the end this thread is full of speculation and hear say mixed with plenty of tears, hopes and dreams.
Stop crying if it gets nerfed fly another ship.
As for the whiners the Mach isn't that good so please ready your forum rage incase of a buff. |
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