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CCP Ytterbium C C P C C P Alliance 2743	Posted - 2013.10.01 16:47:00 - [1] - Quote As mentioned in the Certificate Dev Blog, we are bringing in new certificates for Winter. This thread is for you to have a look at how they are edited, which skills are inside and in which order. For this, we are going to use external application for you to look at an Excel Sheet with all the changes. How to get the file: If you haven't, please read the Certificate Dev Blog first. Go to this link. Don't try to read the file from the window that pops-up, it's garbled data since Google Docs doesn't like Excel formatting apparently. Instead, in the upper-left corner, go to "file" and then select "download" Save the file to your hard drive, and open it. OMG Ytterbium, the file is full of stuff and I'm getting lost! Please help us, Ytter Wan Kenobi, you are my only hope: The "Certificates" tab lists all the revamped certificates. Each certificate is listed with a colored header depending on their type. Under each certificate you can see the various skills needed to unlock each level. Still under the "Certificates" tab, you also have a small colored chart that lists all the certificates by category. The "descriptions" is just me writing a bunch of non-finalized text. Pass your way as they are not official right now. The "Amarr", "Caldari", "Gallente", "Minmatar", "ORE", "Pirates", "Special & Utility" tabs list all the ships that the previous certificates have been assigned to, by mastery level. To quickly find a ship, press CTRL+F and type the name you want (you still need to be in the proper tab) For example, if you look at the "Oracle", under the "Amarr" tab, you will see it has the Large Energy Turret Certificate, Armor Tanking, Shield Reinforcement (level5 mastery only), Targeting, Navigation and Core Ship Operation Certificates. Since Masteries match the Certificate level, that means the Oracle would get for Mastery level 1 for all Certificates level 1 mentioned above (except shield reinforcement, which is not listed until level5). Some things to keep in mind when looking at this: This is based on an internal document, so expect typos, and not perfect formatting. Elite / level 5 Certificates and Masteries are supposed to be extremely demanding. Unlocking one means you have trained all the skills affecting this particular field, even more or less relevant skills tied to rigs. We are aware that some skills may not be relevant to you personally, or your specific gameplay / activity type. It is absolutely impossible to make this list perfectly match everyone needs: certificates listed there are supposed to be a general guiding tool for players to follow, not a precisely attuned tool for specialized corporations (that's where corporation created certificates would come in handy). Confused? Lost in the dark with no ammo left in the shotgun and surrounded by creepy sounds? Just wait until this is released to Singularity to bypass this file and directly look at this from the EVE client.

ConranAntoni Empyrean Warriors Insidious Empire 84	Posted - 2013.10.01 16:50:00 - [2] - Quote first
Katherine Raven ALTA Industries Intergalactic Conservation Movement 1	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:12:00 - [3] - Quote I am questioning the necessity of having outpost construction 3 for the manufacturing level 3 certificate. Living in high sec I will never need outpost construction skills. This means that with all my tech 2 construction skills optimized I'll never be more than a mediocre manufacturer. I'm sure you can argue in favor of having that skill there, but I don't see how that's a useful suggestion for new players trying to make a living in manufacturing.
The Spod Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation 87	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:15:00 - [4] - Quote fast
Swiftstrike1 Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black 247	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:23:00 - [5] - Quote Please read this post :) Fleet Bookmarks Comets: The new Gravimetric scan site Player owned LP stores
Omnathious Deninard Novis Initiis 1592	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:33:00 - [6] - Quote Looks good, but my only gripe is that most "Mastery" level certifications require " * Rigging" level 5 which in most all cases is wasted SP as 1% is not that great of a factor. Most of those could be changed to " * Rigging" level 4 Unless we are going to see something new that requires rigging skills to level 5 or some meaning full benefit to taking the skill to level 5. Novis Initiis is Recruting-á --á Ideas for Drone Improvement
Two step Aperture Harmonics K162 4202	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:37:00 - [7] - Quote Why not more industrial certificates? Why only one very basic mining certificate? It would also be helpful to have something like the (bad!) old profession certificates. For example, a wormhole exploration certificate that would have some basic scanning skills plus basic combat skills, as a way of focusing new player's training. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Katherine Raven ALTA Industries Intergalactic Conservation Movement 1	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:42:00 - [8] - Quote I'm also noticing that the resource harvesting certificate, even at mastery 5, does not indicate to new players that tech 2 crystals are useful. Should Mastery 5 in resource harvesting not provide you with maximized resource harvesting skills? As it stands if someone tells me they have resource mastery 5 and are therefore really good at resource harvesting, I will laugh at them and call them a noob for trusting the certificate system. I love the style, I love the concept, I love the direction. However I've already found two certificates that, just like before these changes, mislead new players into leveling the wrong skills or not leveling skills they should.
Narcotic Gryffin Bombin Busch Wookies 4	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:42:00 - [9] - Quote I like the cleanup, makes me feel like CCP touched me somewhere and now everything is better.
Katherine Raven ALTA Industries Intergalactic Conservation Movement 2	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:46:00 - [10] - Quote In the Dev Blog there was a brief mention that suggested the possibility of creating corporate certificates. Is it possible that CEO's will be able to create their own certificates visible to members of their corporation as guides for skill progression as required/recommended within the corp? For instance we fly a very specific mining fit, would we be able to create a certificate so that they will be able to see, without me telling them, all the skills they need to have in order to make the fit work.

Katherine Raven ALTA Industries Intergalactic Conservation Movement 2	Posted - 2013.10.01 17:56:00 - [11] - Quote Is there a reason shield tanking mastery 5 only requires tactical shield manipulation 4? Seems inconsistent with the other mastery 5 certificates which seem to want level 5 for everything.
Katherine Raven ALTA Industries Intergalactic Conservation Movement 2	Posted - 2013.10.01 18:01:00 - [12] - Quote Two step wrote: Why not more industrial certificates? Why only one very basic mining certificate? It would also be helpful to have something like the (bad!) old profession certificates. For example, a wormhole exploration certificate that would have some basic scanning skills plus basic combat skills, as a way of focusing new player's training. I agree with this, the combat and tanking certificates are very specialized, while if you are working towards being a manufacturer (as a specific example) you will apparently be building literally everything under the sun(s). Maybe break them into a couple certificates that are a little more specialized? What if I never plan on building tech 3's? You're saying I'm not a good manufacturer unless I can. Even if I never will. EDIT: Sorry for so many posts, I'm picking things apart and posting as I go.
Two step Aperture Harmonics K162 4203	Posted - 2013.10.01 18:03:00 - [13] - Quote Other feedback: Supercarriers are missing a project ewar cert. According to EFT, I think only the projected ecm skill matters for the remote ECM burst, but everything else has all the "special" modules as part of their mastery. Titans and blops also don't have any jump portal stuff in their masteries. Why no tackling on amarr/caldari force recon (and on the curse)? Seems kinda important to catch people with them. Why a cert for sensor linking, but none for remote tracking links? Also, why does the Oneiros get the sensor linking cert? Perhaps you meant that cert to be for tracking links? CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Arkenai Wyrnspire Turalyon Plus Turalyon Alliance 1977	Posted - 2013.10.01 18:28:00 - [14] - Quote Hmm. Could be interesting, I suppose. If only to collect the shinies that I've accrued. By the way, your title says 'certifcates' at the moment. I assume it should be 'certificates'. Another terrible poster ._.
Katherine Raven ALTA Industries Intergalactic Conservation Movement 2	Posted - 2013.10.01 18:37:00 - [15] - Quote Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote: Hmm. Could be interesting, I suppose. If only to collect the shinies that I've accrued. By the way, your title says 'certifcates' at the moment. I assume it should be 'certificates'. lol I didn't even notice that. I'm sure they'll fix it right away.
Garviel Tarrant Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 1444	Posted - 2013.10.01 18:43:00 - [16] - Quote I don't think the Excel sheet is very good.. Even after downloading it its still pretty garbled I don't really feel like looking through it all but.. Comet should be in combat group one, the drones are a big deal on that ship. BYDI recruitment closed-ish
Xindi Kraid The Night Wardens Viro Mors Non Est 609	Posted - 2013.10.01 19:53:00 - [17] - Quote I do like that you are paring down the list of certificates, and I like the masteries much better than the previous recommendation system which was only marginally better. I think certs get a bit too broad at the top levels perhaps; they don't need to include EVERY skill under the sun. I appreciate the fact you can't tailor the certificates to every single ship an have made the strokes too broad avoiding doing that. For example, maxing out the Navigation certificate requires micro jump drive operation, this means to master every ship in the game you need micro jump drive operation V, but there's only a couple of dozen ships that can even use it. It's one thing to have one or two ships require a cert that has one or two skills that aren't applicable, but in this case there's far more ships it doesn't apply to than does. Given that, you probably should tweak things so the specialized skills aren't in the certificate. Now, micro jump drive operation should still be required for mastering battleships even having been removed as a requirement for other ships. Here's how you can do it. Option A is to allow certs to have qualifiers, for instance if you train MJD operation to V then your top level navication certification will then say Navigation V w/ Micro-Jump Drive and most ships will require navigation V for mastery while battleships will require Navigation V w/ Micro-Jump Drive. The other alternative is to require both certificates and un-grouped skills, so to master all ships would require all your certs at V for that ship including navigation but battleships would, in addition to all the cert requirements, list MJD operation as a requirement. Yes I know it does get a bit more complicated, but it better represents how the game plays without requiring you to bend over backwards making a ton of certificates. Part of the problem with some certifications is a certain bit of non-applicability in some cases that actually serves to mislead a player; for instance a lot of people ignore the core certificates now because a few of them include skills you don't actually need. For example multitasking only comes in to play with a few ships like logis that can actually target that many ships, and if you are revamping certificates you should at least try to reduce that a bit (and I do see you have removed multitasking from the targeting cert, but you then just added that problem back in elsewhere with MJD operation in nav). Again, it doesn't matter when a skill doesn't apply to a few ships out of hundreds, but if it doesn't apply to the majority of ships, then it shouldn't be in their certifications. Going a bit back from the thank you for paring down certs, it might not be bad to have some (possibly hidden) sub certs. For instance large missiles certification includes torpedoes and cruise missiles, perhaps there could be a sub certification for each launcher type. Normally the player would just see large Missiles III for example, but they could do a show info on it or something and see they have Large missiles III (Torpedoes III, Cruise Missiles VI). This would also change bombers a bit, right now they have a certificate specific to the class, which I think goes a bit in the face of not over-specifying certs; if there were sub-certifications, you could have bombers require Torpedoes w/Bomb Deployment rather than having a wholly separate certification cluttering things up that is specific to just those 4 ships. it also eliminates some redundancy; again stealth bomber missiles is largely redundant with large launchers only differing with the replacement of cruise missiles with bombs, and the armor/shield support certificates don't contain anything the associated tanking skills don't By having sub certifications and extra qualifications you could keep your certificate down and have the top level be fairly straightforward and easy to understand for new players but still have good granularity for experienced players to delve in to and also allow certificates to fit ships better. As for my thoughts on the specific certs: Most of them look good. I already mentioned the problem with nav in that Micro Jump Drive operation is too narrow. Similarly outpost construction shouldn't really be included in manufacturing (if you go with the above suggestions then someone who can build an outpost would have Manufacturing V w/Outpost Construction). I think harvesting needs work too. first of all, I am not convinced mining and gas harvesting should be lumped together; I personally think gas mining should have its own cert separate from mining. In addition to that problem, I believe the level V cert actually only represents about the middle of mining efficiency since it doesn't have the skills to use T2 crystals, though I admit the only fix I can think of is folding refining into it making that cert redundant for miners. Also if you go along with the idea of certification qualifiers, the remote armor rep and remote shield rep certificates can be added in as a qualifier for the tanking abilities since the only skill the remote rep certs require that the tanking does not is the module skill. So most caldari ships need shield tanking, basilisk needs shield tanking w/ remote shield repair. If you do sub-certifications, you could have shield/armor support be sub-certifications. On a side note in some places it says armor/shield support in others it says armor/shield reinforcement; you need to pick a name. I also don't think research and datacores are a good idea, having them separate is a bit redundant since to do invention and reverse engineering you need both certs at about the same level anyway. you might just roll the certificates into one, or you could redistribute them so there's separate certifications for t1 research, t2 invention and t3 reverse engineering.
Olaf4862 KnownUnknown 32	Posted - 2013.10.01 20:48:00 - [18] - Quote Yaaa for spreadsheets... Ok, seriously it looks great can not wait to see the final product. The game has needed this for a long time. I personally am hoping to use it for an incursion community I run as a way to help pilots who join us let them know what levels of certificates they are going to want. Do we know if a player will be able to drag drop a link for it as proof they have it even if they are left private. I would personally find this really handy and I imagine so would a lot of FC's who want to verify the pilots with them have a base line amount of skills they are looking for.
Soldarius Deadman W0nderland Forsak3n. 344	Posted - 2013.10.01 20:49:00 - [19] - Quote CCP Ytterbium, you must have drawn the short straw for this iteration of rebalance. I do not envy you this task. That is a boat load of info to go through. Good luck. In my mind, level 1 is the minimum requirements to use said items. Level 2 is better. Level 3 is required for the next size up and is natural progression for T1. Level 4 is required for T2 and shows dedication to the item. Level 5 is elite and should be full of 5s, but not those skills that aren't really relevant or could be in another group. To that end I think perhaps the industrial certs could be a bit more granular. Sentry Drone Interfacing 5 for all combat drones 4? And a separate category for all the different kinds of drones, except sentries? Seems the split there was along the lines of light/medium and then heavy/sentry. With the only differences being the heavy and sentry skills. Why not just eliminate the scout category and have combat drones category with the relevant skills rolled in? Honestly, the entire drone skill tree and naming scheme needs to be looked at. But that is a project for another expansion. Also, no mention of Advanced Weapons Upgrades skill in stealth bomber missile certs? Plz, that is an absolute must. Some fits are not even possible without either AWU 5 or PG implants. Free Ripley Weaver!
Katherine Raven ALTA Industries Intergalactic Conservation Movement 2	Posted - 2013.10.01 20:57:00 - [20] - Quote Xindi Kraid wrote: For example, maxing out the Navigation certificate requires micro jump drive operation, this means to master every ship in the game you need micro jump drive operation V, but there's only a couple of dozen ships that can even use it. It's one thing to have one or two ships require a cert that has one or two skills that aren't applicable, but in this case there's far more ships it doesn't apply to than does. Given that, you probably should tweak things so the specialized skills aren't in the certificate. This concern also relates to target management which requires you to learn the sensor skills for every race, regardless of what race you fly. This to me suggests that in order to be a good Enyo pilot I also MUST be trained to fly everything else, which to me is not a good plan.

Kadl Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 58	Posted - 2013.10.01 21:25:00 - [21] - Quote There should be a greater focus on the value of skills with respect to the time needed to train them in the gunnery tree. I am going to argue this with one small example, Small Energy Turrets IV, but the principal can be applied elsewhere to improve these certificates. The principal of maximizing damage per skill point suggests that the Small Energy Turret Certification should require Small Beam Specialization 3 and Small Pulse Specialization 3, and might only require Gunnery 4. Small Energy Turret Certificate level 4 requires Gunnery 5, Small Beam Specialization 1, and Small Pulse Specialization 1. A player would be better served to increase their Small Beam Specialization to 3 than increase Gunnery from 4 to 5. Now for a bunch of numbers dealing with marginal gains for each skill point spent. The benefits of Gunnery 5 are 2% increase in firing rate (between 2% and 2.5% increase in damage). The costs of Gunnery 5 are 210745 more skill points than Gunnery 4. Small Beam Specialization increases damage by 2%. The skill cost of going from Small Beam Specialization of 1 to 2 is 3495 skill points. The skill cost of going from Small Beam Specialization of 2 to 3 is 19755. The skill cost of going from Small Beam Specialization of 3 to 4 is 111765. We have two specializations in this certificate so we will multiply the skill point costs by 2. It costs significantly less skill points to increase the specializations to 3 than to increase Gunnery to 5. Thus a smart player maximizing damage per skill point should train those specializations to 3, and then increase Gunnery to 5. Increasing the specialization skills to 4 would cost slightly more than increasing Gunnery, and rate of fire is better anyway. We can eyeball the numbers as we find them here. There is actually a bit more detailed math which needs to be done involving the Small Energy Turret skill, but the idea of finding the best gains remains. The principal here is that the percent gain in damage should be divided by the skill points to lead players to more efficient skill training.
Turelus Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District 526	Posted - 2013.10.01 23:37:00 - [22] - Quote Most of the level fives seem to be more about bragging rights than actual being good at something. Now this isn't exactly a bad thing but the issue is IIRC you wont be able to make any of these public so there isn't any way to brag. Lieutenant Turelus Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
Arthur Aihaken The.VOID 251	Posted - 2013.10.01 23:39:00 - [23] - Quote Certificates look great! Kudos! Now on to the other features... I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Arya Regnar Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 274	Posted - 2013.10.02 02:42:00 - [24] - Quote Implying certificates matter. There are far more important things than this. In the modern age of achievement in every single game... EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Gosti Kahanid Farstriders Apocalypse Now. 30	Posted - 2013.10.02 08:23:00 - [25] - Quote Swiftstrike1 wrote: Please read this post :) Oh what the hell, I'll quote myself: Swiftstrike1 wrote: If you do not already plan to do so, please include the new Mastery tab on modules whose performance is affected by skills other than those required to operate the module. Example below: Target Painter II Required Skills: Target Painting IV Affecting Skills: Frequency Modulation Long Distance Jamming Signature Focussing It might also be an idea to include a list of implants which affect the performance of the module, and a list of ships which have a bonus to that module. push this idea. To see which skills affect a module would be a great help not only for new players
Dorotabo Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2013.10.02 09:41:00 - [26] - Quote I think the sensor compensation skills should be split in to racial groups for e.g. "minmatar sensor compensation", and like the "armour reinforcement" sub group it should come in on the lvl 5 tab of the ship's Mastery.
Maximus Aerelius PROPHET OF ENIGMA 668	Posted - 2013.10.02 11:16:00 - [27] - Quote Firstly thanks to CCP Ytterbium for posting this up and for sharing an internal CCP document with us so we can get early eyes on and comment. Fantastic effort there along with the guide of "how to". Secondly: CCP Ytterbium wrote: Confused? Lost in the dark with no ammo left in the shotgun and surrounded by creepy sounds? Just wait until this is released to Singularity to bypass this file and directly look at this from the EVE client. Oh how I lol'd in the office! Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee" Undocking - More Routes Out of Station Here's my tear jar > \|_\| < Fill 'er up!
Optimo Sebiestor Bondage Goat Zombie Strictly Unprofessional 189	Posted - 2013.10.02 11:34:00 - [28] - Quote How come this is more important than working on the legazy issues you have with your client?
To mare Advanced Technology 261	Posted - 2013.10.02 11:49:00 - [29] - Quote thanks for focusing on the important stuff
Paxte Eriker EVE University Ivy League 0	Posted - 2013.10.02 12:20:00 - [30] - Quote Interesting to see the lack of an 'Advanced Tackling' certificate covering the ability to use all forms of bubbles.



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