Why not more industrial certificates? Why only one very basic mining certificate?

It would also be helpful to have something like the (bad!) old profession certificates. For example, a wormhole exploration certificate that would have some basic scanning skills plus basic combat skills, as a way of focusing new player's training.

Hmm.
Could be interesting, I suppose. If only to collect the shinies that I've accrued.

By the way, your title says 'certifcates' at the moment. I assume it should be 'certificates'.

For example, maxing out the Navigation certificate requires micro jump drive operation, this means to master every ship in the game you need micro jump drive operation V, but there's only a couple of dozen ships that can even use it. It's one thing to have one or two ships require a cert that has one or two skills that aren't applicable, but in this case there's far more ships it doesn't apply to than does. Given that, you probably should tweak things so the specialized skills aren't in the certificate.

Please read this post :)

Oh what the hell, I'll quote myself:

Confused? Lost in the dark with no ammo left in the shotgun and surrounded by creepy sounds? Just wait until this is released to Singularity to bypass this file and directly look at this from the EVE client.

How come this is more important than working on the legazy issues you have with your client?

Re: capital navigation, certificate-wise making a jump from JDC 1 / JFC3 on the level 4 cert to both at level 5 is a touch nuts.

Considering the level 1 cert for capital navigation doesn't even require JDO 1 (wtc?!) you should probably remove level 1, shift levels 2-4 across to 1-3, and insert a new level 4 that sits at a more happy medium.

JFC 4 is a pretty standard place to leave things unless you have nothing better to do, and JDC 4 is acceptable, I guess - but implying a ~level 4~ competence with JDC1/JFC3 is setting people up for a fall.

Of course this isn't like some of the whining about "oh why are the highest level certificates so many level 5 skills", but more about making the jump from comparatively useless at a level 4 cert to superuseful at level 5 without anything inbetween.

edit: a similar thing in the capital remote repair and capital gun certs where you go from TLR/TWR 1 to TLR/TWR 5 on levels 4/5.

I was just reading through, an idea for some of the certs. Break them up by Ship class.

So Frigates would have their own 1-5. etc etc etc. So players who want master on their interceptors don't have to have MJD or w/e it is called. There would be more certs over all. but they would be more specific this way to the class of ship, Maybe not so much the role.

But roles could be put in to play with other additions.

How about a leadership certificate? It would be nice to be able to show off the worst skill in game to skill for which is the Fleet Command level 5 skill that most people only trained to get the Fleet Co-Ordinator - Elite certificate.

Amarr Command Ship is missing from the spread sheet.

Also keep the rigging level 5 requirements for mastery 5.

Also Hull Tanking is missing...

I rate -5billion. New certs have a complete lack of Hull Tanking Elite.

Also to everyone saying things like "why do they recommend lvl5?", crack open a dictionary and learn what mastering something means.

Also based on effectiveness might I recommend moving Production Efficiency 5 into one of the lower levels for this cert. Possibly put it down at the level 3 category.

This is for two reasons, 1 is the fact that you really need Production Efficiency at 5 before you can start to really manufacture a lot of goods at a comfortable profit.

Reason 2: beyond Production Efficiency 5 you start into capital construction and that could be put into the last two levels along with outpost construction and the other ship manufacturing skills.

I would imagine Production Efficiency 5 should be at level 2. That seems to be the first piece of advice for anyone looking to start manufacturing.

I rate -5billion. New certs have a complete lack of Hull Tanking Elite.

Also to everyone saying things like "why do they recommend lvl5?", crack open a dictionary and learn what mastering something means.

Also based on effectiveness might I recommend moving Production Efficiency 5 into one of the lower levels for this cert. Possibly put it down at the level 3 category.

Edit 2: I'm quite sure i deserve to be at least level one in using BC's even though i don't have warfare link skills, seing how i fly them all with maxed stats -_-

x-posting from the test server thread:

It looks like I don't have Cruiser mastery above II for just about every cruiser for only two reasons:
I don't have Electronic Warfare Drones to III (it's II, which is enough to use EC-300s)

Well, to be honest, you'll need warfare links to fully use their potential. I agree, it shouldn't be required for the lowest levels, but I'd consider them important in the long run/for the higher ranks.

I've been looking at this thread and the "test server" subsection of the forums, we'll be making tweaks to the certificates based on your feedback (mainly having a look at Micro Jump Drive skill in navigation, or the Sensor Compensation skills).

Good point on the rig skills as well - they'll most likely stay in the last certificate level, but may end up being moved up a bit.

The ability to use warfare links should only be required for level 4 mastery of battlecruisers, if at all. Training anything in warfare link specialist should only be a requirement for level 5 mastery of battlecruisers, if at all.

This was a very ego-deflating experience, knowing that I have nothing higher than level 2 mastery in any ship line.

Good point as well - keeping warfare links on level4-5 masteries on Tech1 battlecruisers would make sense - however they'll be required from the get go on Command Ships due to their requirements.

I've been looking at this thread and the "test server" subsection of the forums, we'll be making tweaks to the certificates based on your feedback (mainly having a look at Micro Jump Drive skill in navigation, or the Sensor Compensation skills).

Good point on the rig skills as well - they'll most likely stay in the last certificate level, but may end up being moved up a bit.

Good point as well - keeping warfare links on level4-5 masteries on Tech1 battlecruisers would make sense - however they'll be required from the get go on Command Ships due to their requirements.

Elite reqiuirements for some ships are somewhat silly.

Shuttles needing Navigation V to master, meaning MWD, MJD & AB Skills V while none of these can be fitted.

Ibis requires level V ECM skills to master as well as the navigation.

There are many more like this.
The issue I see here is you're looking to use this system to guide newbies on how to be best in these ships, yet some of the requirements for them are beyond what they can (or should) do or sometimes modules they can't even fit.

Edit*
I apparently am only rank II in the Blackbird, this is with everything for ECM V, Caldari Cruiser V. The Target Breaker Amplification should not be a part of ECM as it misleads people on the use of ECM skills.

The mastering of the certificates is one thing, but it can't be simply mapped to the ships, because of the different requirements for the ships.
When I look on some ships, I am mastery of 2, but I am at mastery 4/5 due to the not used/never needed skills in this ship (like sensor compensation, Adv.Target Management or Micro Jump Drive). This make the Mastery level on the ships useless.


1) Rigging (it makes no sense to have this for ships, which is not possible to rig). Funny for a shuttle or a rookie ship. But is correct to have it on level 5 for mastering the ship.

2) Skills, which are not usable are in the certificates (example Micro Jump Drive, which is not fitable on all ships). Ok for mastering the certificates, but only for some ships needed to master.

3) Targetting with all 'sensor compensation" skills are mapped to all ships. For mastering a caldari ship, only gravimetric is needed for mastering.

4) Why do I need "Advanced Target Management Level V" on any Frigate/Cruiser/BC/BS ? It must be adapted for each ship, instead of one global certificate. None of these ships can have more than 10 targets.

5) The Jump Drive is only in the Capital Navigation, but there are also some Battleships/Freighters ... skill is needed for mastering a widow.


The new certificate system is in much cases very "high level" for mapping to the required ship types.
It should be possible to be a master in Navigation-Frigate, but not in all other Navigation certificates.
Please re-think, which skills are usable for each ship/ship type. (as you have done it in Drones/Gunnery)


We need to have more steps in your certification tree, like for example:
- Navigation certificate ... consists of Navigation-Shuttle / Navigation-Frigate / Navigation-Cruiser / etc. certificates
- Targetting ... consists of Targetting-Caldari / Targetting-Amarr / etc. (to get the correct sensor Compensation) and Targetting-Frigate / Targetting-Cruiser / etc. (to get the max. possible targetting count)
- Small projectile turret certificate ... consists of Small short range proj.turret / Small long range proj.turret certifcate
- Manufacturing ... Big ships, Small ships, Projectile, Hybrid, Missiles, Tech3, etc.
- etc.

Then it will be possible to map the required certificates to the ships. It was partially done in the Gunnery/Missile certificates. There is also not just one 'Projectile Turret' or one 'Drone' certificate! But there is one wrong global 'Navigation' or 'Targetting' certificate.

I open the mastery for any ship not BS and I see I only get level III. Then I go see why is that and I found out its because navigation IV requests Micro Jump Drive!!! this skill does not make sense in no other ship than a BS.
You are using a common Navigation certificate for all ships and this is wrong, like capitals you need to create a navigation certificate 1-5 for each ship class the generic one for frigates to cruisers without MJD and one called BS Navigation with this skill.

The same applies to the super carriers, you need a super capital targeting certificate without the sensor compensation skills, because supers are immune to ewar and you don't need to train them.

Also where is the drone certificated in any carrier?

Also If I'm using a caldari ship why do I must have ladar, radar or magnetometric sensor compensation skills at any level to be master of that ship in any level? the same applies to all ships races. In this case you need racial targeting certificates.

Another point is that targeting IV only requires advanced target management III but 5 demands level V, it doesn't make sense, it should be IV, I understand master V should demand all V's but in any rule there should be exceptions when they make sense and this is one of those rare cases.

Now we have those rare cases that are open to discussion and this is my opinion:

RIGS in certificates:

Looking at the targeting we see it only demand electronic rigs at level I starting at level III, then at IV demands rigs at level IV and V of course level V, I want to propose a middle ground that makes much more sense: Master Targetting IV should only request electronic rig at III because it makes more sense I ... III ... V than I ... IV ... V ----- the same rule should apply to all other certificated that demand rigs.

Warfare Links in Certificates:

Any ship not a command ship should only request basic warfare links from mastery 4 or 5 and only demand at 4 warfare links with specialist at level I, and V with specialist at level II


Armor resistance phasing in the armor tanking certificate

the same as I described in the rigs, It should not go from 1 to 4 to 5 but starting at mastery 3, but from 1 to 3 to 5, it makes more sense.

[quote=Unforgiven Storm
Yes, yes, my pressscious, poor Smeagol is working to fix that, no beatings please?

Usually, level4 certificates allows the user to use tech2 items. And you need rig skill level at 4 to be able to tech2 rigs. Yes, we do realize tech2 rigs may not be super common but we wanted to keep a consistent system going there.

Also i shouldn't require the ewar drone skill at a high level for frigates!









Even though for some bizare reason its highly useful bonus works on all drones...

Usually, level4 certificates allows the user to use tech2 items. And you need rig skill level at 4 to be able to tech2 rigs. Yes, we do realize tech2 rigs may not be super common but we wanted to keep a consistent system going there.

Do I as a nighthawk pilot really need lvl 5 in armor/skirmish warfare for lvl1?

One requirement I don't like is all 4 drone specializations to 5 for master 5

As an AMARR player, (closet RPer), i will NOT use drones from other races, so why should any amarr player be forced to train other races drones?? Thats like requiring caldari pilots to train autocannons... its just silly.

Also, anything about alliance build certificates? the system allows it? will that ever happen?

One requirement I don't like is all 4 drone specializations to 5 for master 5

As an AMARR player, (closet RPer), i will NOT use drones from other races, so why should any amarr player be forced to train other races drones?? Thats like requiring caldari pilots to train autocannons... its just silly.

Update:

[list]

All rigs skills have been removed from Certificates / Masteries as they were more cluttering them than anything else.

stuff

Update:

Update:

[list]

All rigs skills have been removed from Certificates / Masteries as they were more cluttering them than anything else.

You did not say anything about ships without slots (like shuttle and freighter).
Whether they will have skills Afterburner, Fuel Conservation, Acceleration Control and High Speed Maneuvering in Navigation certs of Mastery levels?
These skills are useless for these ships.

I still think for the ship mastery 5, racial ships should only require their own race of drone specialization to 5.

For pirate ships, require both drone specializations for the races they require to fly. (amarr/caldari for the nightmare)

Elite requirements are supposed to be extremely high-standards - as mentioned before, elite means you've mastered all possible skills affecting the hull you're looking at, no matter the relevance. Certificates help newbies through the lower levels - Elite is meant for veteran unlock and bragging.

One requirement I don't like is all 4 drone specializations to 5 for master 5

As an AMARR player, (closet RPer), i will NOT use drones from other races, so why should any amarr player be forced to train other races drones?? Thats like requiring caldari pilots to train autocannons... its just silly.

A note on Rigs:

I'm digging through the worksheet and noticing a 'bleh' trend in the weapon certificates.

If you don't understand fitting principles and rig calculations, putting jury rigs to V seems like a good idea for a weapon support skill system.

BUT - in reality you achieve rig unlocks for the t2 variants at level IV for the majority of those rigs. Most of those rigs have to do with fitting issues, shaving only 1-15 cpu or pg for going from IV to V. If you have elite fitting skills, that IV to V makes absolutely no difference in what you can fit for 99.99% of all the fits out there. As far as fitting theory goes, it is a practical waste of time to put any of the weapon riggings from IV to V.

So move that over to the "Rigging" or "Riggers" certificate and leave the weapon certificates at IV (Which gives you the t2 rig unlock).


Those areas whos rigs affect speed / total HP of a ship SHOULD get the level V treatment: Armor Rigs, Shield Rigs, Astronautics Rigs, Electronic superiority rigs.


I'll keep digging into it and see if I can find anything else I disagree with. ^.^

Update:

• Advanced Target Management has been removed from the "Target Management" Certificate and moved into its own Certificate, named "Advanced Target Management". Carriers, Marauders, Logistic Cruisers and Combat Recon ships need this Certificate as part of their Masteries since they can lock more than 7 targets. All other ships in-game don't need it anymore.

Signal Amplifier II will increase Max Locked Targets +2, bringing T2 cruiser logi to 12

I really like the new ship tree. However, it annoys me that the masteries are not individualized at all.
As previous posters have pointed out, Ladar/Radar/Mag sensor compensation is wasted training for a caldari pilot, and even misleading to newer players. And requiring all basic warfare skills to 5 for lvl 1 mastery on every ship able to fit links feels overkill as well.

Personally, I think that the starter profession certificates could use some looking at, but all in all were pretty nice to have when I was new.

Your main problem to me is actually you want to give the certifs only to the ships.

If you want to fly a frigate you need either afterburner or microwarpdrive and in some rare cases both but for most of the frigs you can't say if you need one or the other it depends what you want to do with it. This means the the "afterburner" part of the navigation certif should not be linked to a ship but to the afterburner module itself or to a fit which uses it.

In my opinion it would be really nice to have the different requirements liked to different objects like on a gun here is what you need to be good with this gun. Saying you need those gunnery (for example) skills on that ship doesn't really make sens and produces nonsense like having all weapon certifs on the gnosis.

On the ship please concentrate on the essential part of the ship like as example :
- bs have higher fitting requirements than frigs.
- Bs need to be able to target further away than frigs
- Bs need better cap skils

If after that you can "compile" the different certif from the different modules/rigs/ship of an fit and generate here is what you should have to fly this fit mediocre, normal or "to his best". Then, I think, you would have something useful people would use.

While I understand the benefits of that type of system the biggest loss would be direction. Lets be honest, most players that use this will be newbies who have no idea about variations in fittings. They look at a ship bonus and assume thats what should be fitted. Now we know that you dont have to fit projectiles to say a rifter for it to be effective. However, we also have experience and skills to compensate for the bonus loss.

A new player who is training into, again a rifter, needs to have a solid idea of what the ship does first before they play around with what they can do with it. By slapping projectile certificates on the ship it shows them that they would need to train projectiles first to use the ship effectively. If they are low in gunnery skills then they need the bonus to get that extra firepower until they've trained up their support skills a bit more. Once they have, then choosing lasers on a rifter then isn't as bad. However, by that point in time they should have a feel for what makes the ship work well and thus will not use the mastery as a guide.

I think if we attach to modules we take away that sense of what to train for the ship to make it effective for low skilled players just getting into it.

Aside from these nitpickings, I agree with the Ship Mastery V concept of crazy maxxing out of any skill that could be applied to a particular hull, whether or not it should be applied.

Will there be player-defined certificates? I think of corporate or alliance ship doctrines who could be planned for and followed using such certificates, which might be useful to determine how many pilots could fly a ship with a defined setup...

Shirolayyn

I still don't see any recognition for spaceship command skills. Mastery V should include the t1/t2 hull skills at V. For most of us, our biggest sp sink is SSC and it would be nice to see that on there.

I've said it before, but is worth repeating - the idea that you could be showing Mastery V for a ship you only have the ship skill at 1 for is just... plain silly, misleading and wrong.

Ship skills very definitely affect the performance of the ship because usually the bonuses are dependent on levels of hull skill - sometimes on several - faction ships/t2 ships.

Any chance?

Rigging should, I think, be a set of certificates dedicated to exclusively to rigging, then assign Rigging (n-1) as part of the relevent Ship Master n.

i have heard rumors that the tech2 training for guns (lasers, hybrids, projectiles) is going to get changed to match the tech2 training for missiles. Meaning you don't have to train everything under it to get to large t2 guns. Is this fact or false?

Thoughts?

Update:
All rigs skills have been removed from Certificates / Masteries as they were more cluttering them than anything else.

Research
This certificate represents level of competence in blueprint research. This is a skill set to improve manufacturing efficiency or as a extra source of income when selling blueprint copies.

Datacores
This certificate represents level of competence in invention and reserve engineering. It is a good skill set to research Tech 2 or Tech 3 items.

Rough thoughts on useful manufacturing certificates. Still want to do one for T3 construction and another for capital ship construction.

Snip

Hey people,

Been away from this thread for some time, but I wanted to bring an update regarding the industry and research certificates; we are aware they are quite clumsy at the moment. I mainly had time to focus on the ship certificates to make sure they were well integrated with the ISIS and could not refine them based on your comments.

However, we've planned an iteration task to make industry / research Certificates less generic and more granular. It's planned for Rubicon 1.1, so we'll keep updating this thread from time to time with feedback.

Thanks for your time.

Ship masteries are pretty odd at the capital level.

One of my characters shows as having Mastery V for an Anshar, yet it doesn't have Jump Freighters V.

Trajectory Analysis is still required at high levels for certs involving energy turrets when better falloff is nearly pointless for those turret types.

please fix this.

I dont think you realize that tachyons have something like 20km falloff

And it actually comes in handy when using gleam crystals, it actually doubles the range I can actually hit something.

Hi, just checked the last changes in sisi. I found a couple of things, if you could check and give feedback on them I would thank you since some I'm not sure if they are bugs or you want them to be like that.

1 - JFs need a certificate that groups all the passive capacitor related skills because they need cap to jump and recharge rate is an important thing when we are jumping around

2 - In all dreads the tactical weapon reconfiguration skill is missing from any weapon related certificates

3 - sensor compensation skills in supers and titans is wrong since they are invul to eletronic warfare, I think this two ships need a special capital targeting certificate without any sensor compensation skills

4 - Dread with sensor compensation skills also doesn't make sense since when in siege, they are also invul, but this is open for discussion since there are always idiots that can use a dread without a siege module and/or not use it if equiped... :-)

5 - battleship navigation missing the MJD skill

6 - Marauders are missing the new bastion skill in one of the "weapons" certificates

---- Final problem is open for discussion and if possible I would like for you to explain in more details what is CCP position about this issue and why did you choose to configure the certificated like that ----

I'm talking about the strategic cruiser masteries and the certificates each one needs. I was surprised to not have level 1 for this ships, when I have 100k skill points and IV in any other ship other than command ships. Then I notice that there is a warfare link certificate at mastery 1 that requires me to have all 5.

I understand that this ship is a jack of all trades due to the different subsystems. Question is and if I only want to use this ship for combat or only for electronic warfare, and never for command ?

Its my opinion that this ship in the ship view should have 5 children subsystem lines coming from it representing the main 5 subsystems groups with 4 entries each, one for each subsystem and it should be the subsystems that contains masteries and certificates and the strategic cruiser only should contain basic certificates related with the hull itself.

what is ccp position about this issue?