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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |

Jenn aSide
STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries
3021
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Posted - 2013.10.11 15:49:00 -
[241] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:However, missile velocity is something that should definitely be included (Rattlesnake, Raven and Raven Navy Issue). These are all long-range platforms and it somewhat defeats the purpose to relegate them to mid-range setups.
^^ This
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Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
120
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Posted - 2013.10.11 16:01:00 -
[242] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Jayne Fillon wrote:So there you go. Torps versus big slow things, cruise versus far things, and RHMLs versus close fast and small. Something seems off in your numbers. I can't see how RHMLs on a Typhoon would outperform cruise missiles by more than a factor of 2 against either type of battleship (AB and MWD). For starters, the explosion radius isn't going to come into effect, the explosion velocity is actually higher with cruise missiles and despite the higher rate of fire with RHMLs heavy missiles do less than half the damage.
On the typhoon the cruise missiles DID our perform RHML against battlecruiser sized targets and larger. With or without prop mod. Not sure if I mistyped or what.
Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |

Major Killz
La Fraternite
253
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:09:00 -
[243] - Quote
CCP should remove heavy missiles and cruiser missile all together. - Killz
Combat Log: http://www.youtube.com/user/kdsalmon/videos
- Pantaloon II: Violins (Jun 23, 2013) |

Arthur Aihaken
Stay Frosty.
291
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Posted - 2013.10.11 16:45:00 -
[244] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:CCP should remove heavy missiles and cruiser missile all together. Yeah... thanks for playing.
Jayne Fillon wrote:On the typhoon the cruise missiles DID our perform RHML against battlecruiser sized targets and larger. With or without prop mod. Not sure if I mistyped or what. I'd be curious to see your spreadsheet with the formulas and how you arrived at the various calculations for each. Any chance you could link it? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
121
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Posted - 2013.10.11 16:46:00 -
[245] - Quote
Major Killz wrote:CCP should remove heavy missiles and cruiser missile all together.
Why not just remove missile launchers entirely, and medium projectile ammo for good measure? Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |

Bouh Revetoile
TIPIAKS
389
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 16:48:00 -
[246] - Quote
Mer88 wrote:that cant be , once your explosion radius has match the sig radius of the target , any further decrease in exp rad wont increase your damage . I have shot angel BS many times with rage torpedo with 4 tp painted and do 1500 volley damage due to its speed was over 200m/s. Don't know about you, but the third case of the missile damage formula says it clearly : (target signature / explo radius) * (explosion velocity / target velocity) ^(thing)
If signature of target is higher than explosion radius, then speed matter, but sig still matter too, and it matter as much as velocity. |

Arthur Aihaken
Stay Frosty.
291
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Posted - 2013.10.11 17:21:00 -
[247] - Quote
Unless I'm mistaken, explosion radius only comes into play if the target's signature radius is smaller. If that's the case, it means we're primarily looking at explosion velocity as the determining factor.
Using a RNI and a target of a AB Cruiser (signature 175m) as an example, it would seem that compared to heavy missiles cruise missiles have 5% less explosion radius effect (185.63m vs. 105m), 17% less explosion velocity (103.5 m/s vs. 121.5 m/s) but yield approximately 20% more damage (when rate of fire is taken into account). I'm not sure how that works out to twice as effective. I can see RHMLs being marginally more effective, but not completely eclipsing cruise missiles. Especially considering that with the Typhoon cruise outperform RHMLs in instances where the signature radius exceeds that for cruise missiles.
I'm not disagreeing with the overall assessment, it just seems disproportionately weighted towards RHMLs for anything with a signature radius higher than an AB Cruiser. A casual glance would seem to suggest that cruise missiles and torpedoes would actually outstrip RHMLs for applied damage. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Kaarous Aldurald
ROC Academy The ROC
1135
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 17:35:00 -
[248] - Quote
Quote: A casual glance would seem to suggest that cruise missiles and torpedoes would actually outstrip RHMLs for applied damage.
Cruise, yes. Torps, definitely not. Mostly because Tops have such severe requirement for their damage application to reach maximum.
TMC had a really good article about it.
http://themittani.com/features/rapid-heavy-missile-launcher-analysis?page=0%2C3
The gist of it is that Torps are only remotely worth it under extremely ideal conditions, basically structure shooting. And the range tradeoff is quite simply not worth it. (because seriously, who does 10km brawls in battleship combat?)
Cruise still have their niche, extremely long range. Torps have now lost theirs, RHMLs have it now.
What's more, in less than ideal conditions under 30km range, RHMLs > all.
While I am all for having rules apply equally across the board, if these start getting velocity or travel time bonuses from their parent ships, they will, plain and simple, outstrip torps and cruise for all but extreme long range combat. Not posting on my main, and loving it.-á Because free speech.-á |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
413
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Posted - 2013.10.11 17:46:00 -
[249] - Quote
On a phone so forgive me for not checking, are these BS with rhml not putting out the same DPS as the (now rare) HML tengu? Aren't those a bit unused now because .... Terrible? |

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
887
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:32:00 -
[250] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Unless I'm mistaken, explosion radius only comes into play if the target's signature radius is smaller. If that's the case, it means we're primarily looking at explosion velocity as the determining factor.
I'm afraid you are mistaken. Explosion radius matters if it is both larger and smaller than sig radius.
If explosion radius is bigger than target sig, then max % damage is equal to [sig]/[explosion radius]. This is a hard cap and can only be countered by fiddling with sig or explosion radius figures.
If explosion radius is smaller than target sig, then the quotient of [sig]/[explosion radius] acts as a multiplier to missile explosion velocity, allowing a missile to deal full damage even if its target is exceeding its explosion velocity. This means that a target that experiences 5x increases to sig and speed - such as by activating MWD - can receive the same damage as when MWD was off, assuming that the hard cap of [sig]/[explosion radius] is not in effect.
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Arthur Aihaken
Stay Frosty.
291
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Posted - 2013.10.11 18:34:00 -
[251] - Quote
Some real world numbers... I ran a Tengu outfitted with a single cruise and heavy missile launcher against the following targets (Caldari Navy Mjolnir ammunition, so no bonuses):
i. AB Caracal (145m signature, 525 m/s) ii. MWD Caracal (870m signature, 1515 m/s) iii. AB Ferox (345m signature, 346 m/s) iv. MWD Ferox (2070m signature, 961 m/s)
Here were the results:
GÇó Heavy missile ... AB Caracal, 88 damage (142 adjusted damage) GÇó Heavy missile ... MWD Caracal, 150 damage (242 adjusted damage) GÇó Cruise missile ... AB Caracal, 72 damage GÇó Cruise missile ... MWD Caracal, 141 damage
GÇó Heavy missile ... AB Ferox, 184 damage (297 adjusted damage) GÇó Heavy missile ... MWD Ferox, 184 damage (297 adjusted damage) GÇó Cruise missile ... AB Ferox, 194 damage GÇó Cruise missile ... MWD Ferox, 402 damage
Summary:
i. AB Caracal ... RHML, 97.2% more effective ii. MWD Caracal ... RHML, 71.6% more effective iii. AB Ferox ... RHML, 53.1% more effective iv. MWD Ferox ... Cruise, 35.4% more effective I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Arthur Aihaken
Stay Frosty.
291
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:40:00 -
[252] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:[If explosion radius is smaller than target sig, then the quotient of [sig]/[explosion radius] acts as a multiplier to missile explosion velocity, allowing a missile to deal full damage even if its target is exceeding its explosion velocity. This means that a target that experiences 5x increases to sig and speed - such as by activating MWD - can receive the same damage as when MWD was off, assuming that the hard cap of [sig]/[explosion radius] is not in effect. Very interesting. Appreciate the clarification, thanks. So would rigors then be more effective than flares (since it's unlikely you'll exceed a target's velocity with explosion velocity alone)? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 18:48:00 -
[253] - Quote
It really all comes down to tackle. If you have 1 x 60% web applied to target and 3 TP (2 if hull bonused for explosion radius) RHML only out performs Cruise on Destroyers and below with a close race if the cruiser/hac is AB. If you have full tackle 2 x 60% webs applied and even a single TP you wind up with about the same scenario (RHML are still even or slightly better on AB targets). Cruise still outperforms RHML at the BC level if you even bring a single TP or 1 web.
So basically, if you are solo, RHML will probably be more effective in the majority of engagements you find yourself in. However, if you fit tackle or bring a friend that can provide tackle Cruise is the better option. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
413
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 19:09:00 -
[254] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Some real world numbers... I ran a Tengu outfitted with a single cruise and heavy missile launcher against the following targets (Caldari Navy Mjolnir ammunition, so no bonuses):
i. AB Caracal (145m signature, 525 m/s) ii. MWD Caracal (870m signature, 1515 m/s) iii. AB Ferox (345m signature, 346 m/s) iv. MWD Ferox (2070m signature, 961 m/s)
Here were the results:
GÇó Heavy missile ... AB Caracal, 88 damage (142 adjusted damage) GÇó Heavy missile ... MWD Caracal, 150 damage (242 adjusted damage) GÇó Cruise missile ... AB Caracal, 72 damage GÇó Cruise missile ... MWD Caracal, 141 damage
GÇó Heavy missile ... AB Ferox, 184 damage (297 adjusted damage) GÇó Heavy missile ... MWD Ferox, 184 damage (297 adjusted damage) GÇó Cruise missile ... AB Ferox, 194 damage GÇó Cruise missile ... MWD Ferox, 402 damage
Summary:
i. AB Caracal ... RHML, 97.2% more effective ii. MWD Caracal ... RHML, 71.6% more effective iii. AB Ferox ... RHML, 53.1% more effective iv. MWD Ferox ... Cruise, 35.4% more effective
What happens with precision cruise in the tubes?
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Arthur Aihaken
Stay Frosty.
291
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Posted - 2013.10.11 19:21:00 -
[255] - Quote
Morrigan LeSante wrote:What happens with precision cruise in the tubes? I didn't test precision cruise (I don't have Cruise-V), but they have a 10% smaller signature and the same explosion velocity as faction heavies. So I imagine they'd fare 25-33% better overall. Without any missile velocity bonus I can't see using precision heavies for anything other than frigate defense, but I suspect they'd be quite effective. I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

unidenify
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
20
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Posted - 2013.10.11 21:28:00 -
[256] - Quote
hate when people start to compare specific ships for RHML/CM/TM yet left SNI out (SNI's bonus do apply to both CM/RHML)
anyway, I am too lazy to do deep math, and here is my dps for Navy Scorpion in test server BS V Heavy IV (I will add 5% to damage so it act as Level V) Cruise V 6x Meta 4 Launcher for both CML and RHML 3 Caldari BCS + 1 BCS II My SNI have 2 Rigor I and 1 Flare I
RoF RHML: 3.07 sec CML: 6.83 sec
Damage RHML: 1728 (based on EFT) CML: 4710
DPS RHML: 562.86 CML: 689.6
Missile Stat RHML Faction Caldari Explosive Velocity: 143.9m/s Explosive Radius: 83m Velocity: 6,643.5 m/s Flight time: 9.75 sec Range: 64,774 m
CML Faction Caldari Explosive Velocity: 122.59 m/s Explosive Radius: 196m Velocity: 7,261.5m Flight time: 21 sec Range: 152,491.5 m
one thing that concern me is heavy missile's velocity. why it is slower than Cruise? |

Arthur Aihaken
Stay Frosty.
292
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 21:46:00 -
[257] - Quote
unidenify wrote:hate when people start to compare specific ships for RHML/CM/TM yet left SNI out (SNI's bonus do apply to both CM/RHML)... one thing that concern me is heavy missile's velocity. why it is slower than Cruise? That's because the damage is effectively the same between the RNI and SNI. The velocity on heavy missiles is what it is (most cruiser and battlecruiser classes bonus it). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
888
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 23:08:00 -
[258] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:Very interesting. Appreciate the clarification, thanks. So would rigors then be more effective than flares? (since it's unlikely you'll exceed a target's velocity with explosion velocity alone)
Yep rigours are superior to flares, and IIRC it's reflected in their calibration costs, although that might just be a CCP coincidence. The -15% to explosion radius from a rigour benefits you in all situations where you're not doing full damage, and a large enough bonus to explosion radius will enable any missile to do full damage to any target, regardless of its speed... although clearly in the case of a citadel torpedo hitting a Dramiel it'd have to be a pretty hefty bonus. 
In contrast, a bonus to explosion velocity has no influence upon the hard cap of [sig]/[explosion radius]. In the case of the citadel torpedo and the Dramiel, no matter what explosion velocity you assign to the torp, it will never do full damage to the Dramiel, it'll max out at the hard cap of [sig]/[explosion radius], something like 40/1500, 2.7%.
I think there's also a mathematical thingy where a 15% bonus to explosion radius is superior to a 15% bonus to explosion velocity, because the former involves division by 0.85, while the latter involves multiplication by 1.15, with the former giving a bigger bonus - think of the superiority of a 5% ROF bonus over a 5% damage one. |

TekGnosis
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
22
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Posted - 2013.10.12 00:49:00 -
[259] - Quote
So, the part where there isn't a hull in the Tier 3 BC class that can use Missiles... About that.
I'd love an oversized AML caracal. Maybe they had this on the drawing board, and is the actual reason for Naga flipping weapon systems? |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
292
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 01:12:00 -
[260] - Quote
TekGnosis wrote:So, the part where there isn't a hull in the Tier 3 BC class that can use Missiles... About that. I'd love an oversized AML caracal. Maybe they had this on the drawing board, and is the actual reason for Naga flipping weapon systems? What about just retrofitting the Naga for large missiles? I'm sure no one would object...  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Jayne Fillon
Sanctuary of Shadows Axiomatic Dominion
121
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 03:55:00 -
[261] - Quote
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Summary:
i. AB Caracal ... RHML, 97.2% more effective ii. MWD Caracal ... RHML, 71.6% more effective iii. AB Ferox ... RHML, 53.1% more effective iv. MWD Ferox ... Cruise, 35.4% more effective
This sounds about right, the intersection point for RHML vs Cruise seemed to be centered around a MWD Combat Battlecruiser, although I did my calculations using a drake not a ferox.
Can't shoot blues if you don't have any. Long Live NPSI. |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
292
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 04:10:00 -
[262] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:This sounds about right, the intersection point for RHML vs Cruise seemed to be centered around a MWD Combat Battlecruiser, although I did my calculations using a drake not a ferox. I think it's going to intersect a bit earlier with a RNI due to the explosion velocity bonus (possibly an AB battlecruiser). I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Naes Mlahrend
KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance
140
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 04:33:00 -
[263] - Quote
Now make an attack BC that get's a bonus to launchers |

Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
293
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 04:37:00 -
[264] - Quote
Naes Mlahrend wrote:Now make an attack BC that get's a bonus to launchers I'm putting a pair of RHMLs on my Tengu. +25% damage and +50% missile velocity.  I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
542
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 11:21:00 -
[265] - Quote
I don't see why CCP don't just make a third launcher with a new missile type that would do the same job as RHML but is more appropriate and somewhat less OP..
light torpedo launcher - light torpedos as ammo -reduced pg and cpu than torp launchers
light torpedo explosion radius 200 at lv 5 skills explosion velocity 140m/s lv 5 skills 20% better range than javelin torps
then change precision cruises to more battlecruiser sized 300 or so they shouldn't be hitting at 180 exp rad for battleship sized missiles
Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |

Iome Ambraelle
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
87
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 15:28:00 -
[266] - Quote
Jayne Fillon wrote:Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Summary:
i. AB Caracal ... RHML, 97.2% more effective ii. MWD Caracal ... RHML, 71.6% more effective iii. AB Ferox ... RHML, 53.1% more effective iv. MWD Ferox ... Cruise, 35.4% more effective
This sounds about right, the intersection point for RHML vs Cruise seemed to be centered around a MWD Combat Battlecruiser, although I did my calculations using a drake not a ferox. My numbers show basically the same thing. However, there is an interesting inflection point that occurs when adding situational modifiers. The addition of a single 60% web (provided by someone else) and 2-3 target painters (a common load-out for a BS size hull) moves the intersection migrates down to Cruise being better against T1 cruisers except for Cruisers fit for AB where RHML remains slightly ahead.
If you have full tackle of 2 x 60% webs, Cruise beats out RHML for MWD T1 cruiser and above. Adding even a single TP places Cruise above RHML for anything above a Destroyer or AB T1 cruiser. 3 TPs and full tackle aligns Cruise at 75%+ RHML damage even on non-prop and MWD T1 frigates.
It would be pointless to apply damage application hull bonuses to RHML as they are at max damage against cruisers regardless of propulsion used with only a couple of TPs. That said, I have to say that when striking range, alpha, and missile speed are taken into account, Cruise missiles will still be the better option even when RHML outdamages them by 10-15%. I think if the damage projection bonuses applied these would be in a really good place actually. Shield Tanking - Why armor tanking can't have nice things. |

Mark Maldren
Ardea Technologies
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:04:00 -
[267] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:
Forgot to mention something important - Battleships with Damage bonuses (like Raven and Typhoon rate of fire) will have those bonuses applied to the new launchers. Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).
The ROF bonus on the Widow has not been updated to effect Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers. Is this over-site or design? |
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CCP Rise
C C P C C P Alliance
3018

|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:09:00 -
[268] - Quote
Mark Maldren wrote:CCP Rise wrote:
Forgot to mention something important - Battleships with Damage bonuses (like Raven and Typhoon rate of fire) will have those bonuses applied to the new launchers. Any bonuses to damage projection or application will NOT be applied (such as Raven missile velocity or Typhoon explosion velocity).
The ROF bonus on the Widow has not been updated to effect Rapid Heavy Missile Launchers. Is this over-site or design?
Oversight - thanks, will fix.
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Arthur Aihaken
The.VOID
299
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:30:00 -
[269] - Quote
CCP Rise wrote:Oversight - thanks, will fix. Any feedback on including at least missile velocity bonuses with the RHML? I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week. |

Gorski Car
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
103
|
Posted - 2013.10.12 18:44:00 -
[270] - Quote
Explosion velocity or dont use. |
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