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Please Fix Retribution so it can PvP

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Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.17 20:42:00 - [151] I don't think the ships are being penalized for PVP its the players that penalize themselves for PvP "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.17 21:16:00 - [152] Originally by: BillyBong2 I am not trying to be difficult here. However, can you please explain to me, I fly only Amarr, how the Ishkur is only 10 dps behind the retribution when it is 1 gun less? Answer: Drones. T2 drones with skills put out an ungodly amount of damage. It's what makes the Ishtar so deadly and it's little brother, the Ishkur, frightening. Because 90% of frigate battles happen at below 18 km it allows the Ishkur to fully utilize it's drones in most combat situations. It also allows for variety in damage types. I wasn't a big drone fan till I started flying the Pilgrim. With the skills trained up I was....pleasantly suprised. Now as to why I chose the weapons I chose: Quite simply, I tried to get an "apples to apples" comparison between the AF's. Weapons up high, 3 lows to tank, the rest heatsinks. This was merely to attempt to give an unbiased base comparison between the AFs. If you would like me to change the setups (weapons, damage mods, etc) please list them and I will be happy to run the numbers and post the results. Personally I have set the AF's every single which way can think of, and I can not find a setup where the Retribution significantly outshines the competition. As many people who can fly different races AF's have said, yes the Retribution is ok. But it's not significantly better than Gallente/Caldari/Matari to overcome the hampering effect of 1 mid slot. To those who fly the Retri and oppose a high->mid swap could you explain your reasons why? Preferably with numbers since the Retri would have to make some extremely difficult fitting choices due to it's cpu constraints? Honestly I would not even be opposed to moving a low to a mid, although I think for variety's sake it should be a high to a mid. And yes, I could just fly an Ishkur or Harpy since they pwn the Vengeance in every situation. But I would rather make the Vengeance worth using rather than have everyone flying just a few types of AF's. All ships should be good, with certain ships being specialized for certain tasks. This is opposed to having a couple of ships good for everything, and a bunch of ships that are not or less so. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.17 21:36:00 - [153] "Apples to Apples" ought really to be "common PvP setup to common PvP setup". I'm of the opinion that in gangs where you have others scrambling the mid count is not a problem and at that point while not necessarily "significantly" better is is pretty much the best AF out there - it can tank hard and still put out a lot of damage, particularly with T2 ammo against larger ships. If you let it do that solo, it'd be if not overpowered then probably at least the de facto best choice. I'm not saying it's balanced now, I'm just worried that a second mid, with the CPU to use it, would push it too far. Even without the CPU you'd just have to drop the HS2 if you wanted a web or a scram, which you could replace with another CPR for example. I'd really hate to lose a low for a mid though, that's just getting generic. Either way, I think the best solution to this dilemma is just to make the Vengeance do what people want the Retri to do, ie be a reasonably generic tackle-friendly AF. The Retri as it is atm is a unique and characterful ship, and frankly pushing it into line with the other AFs would be a huge waste :(
BillyBong2	Posted - 2006.02.17 22:02:00 - [154] Ok, how about my PvP setup. 4xMedium Pulse II Using Multis, just T1... 3 HS II I use this for Gang Support, used it the other night and got a few kill mails. Don't take my skills into account because, well I have a lot Thanks, and I thought the DPS would come from the drones. I think I might work on getting a Vengence to be Vampiric/Tackler and see what i can come up with. Thanks again Nyxus. Siggy by Esturary
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.17 22:10:00 - [155] Do you people fail to realize just how much 15-20 dps increase is in a frigate battle? As someone pointed out, thats 450 more damage in a 30 second fight. Thats alot when your talking frigates. Now add in the fact you can run a small armor rep II, and a thermal hardener 4ever. You see why the retribution is teh sex.
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.17 22:14:00 - [156] People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy.
Tas Devil	Posted - 2006.02.17 23:07:00 - [157] The retribution is fine as it is ...even to PVP ... modify it and it will become the absolute best AF... I like to fly ships that offer a challenge...not the win all button ...and the retribution is incredibly strong yet offers a challenge to the lone hunter. The best Laught ever ... Credit goes to TheKiller8 for this :)
Azeroth Uluntil	Posted - 2006.02.17 23:08:00 - [158] Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Agreed. Think I've got 18km optimal with radios... The retribution is a very nice ship that can pretty much take down any other af that doesn't target jam it, when set it up properly. Inties are basically no threat unless they have a beyond 20km warp scrambler and anything that gets in under 10km is toast due to UV/Multifrequency crystals. Also from my experience most assault frigs that decide to engage get blown up before they realize they are in trouble, and thus, no need for a scrambler. As ccp has stated time and time again, there is no need for a solopwnmobile of each class, but the retribution is quite close. Granted, that 5th high slot is hard to fit(requires alot of level 5 skills), but it is indeed *****ble with a useful mod that can help in frig gangs. Quit whining about how it needs to be changed. It's good enough as is.
Tas Devil	Posted - 2006.02.17 23:10:00 - [159] Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Agreed. Think I've got 18km optimal with radios... The retribution is a very nice ship that can pretty much take down any other af that doesn't target jam it, when set it up properly. Inties are basically no threat unless they have a beyond 20km warp scrambler and anything that gets in under 10km is toast due to UV/Multifrequency crystals. Also from my experience most assault frigs that decide to engage get blown up before they realize they are in trouble, and thus, no need for a scrambler. As ccp has stated time and time again, there is no need for a solopwnmobile of each class, but the retribution is quite close. Granted, that 5th high slot is hard to fit(requires alot of level 5 skills), but it is indeed *****ble with a useful mod that can help in frig gangs. Quit whining about how it needs to be changed. It's good enough as is. Your eloquence, Sir, surpased mine in praising this fine ship :) The best Laught ever ... Credit goes to TheKiller8 for this :)
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.18 11:19:00 - [160] Originally by: Tas Devil Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Agreed. Think I've got 18km optimal with radios... The retribution is a very nice ship that can pretty much take down any other af that doesn't target jam it, when set it up properly. Inties are basically no threat unless they have a beyond 20km warp scrambler and anything that gets in under 10km is toast due to UV/Multifrequency crystals. Also from my experience most assault frigs that decide to engage get blown up before they realize they are in trouble, and thus, no need for a scrambler. As ccp has stated time and time again, there is no need for a solopwnmobile of each class, but the retribution is quite close. Granted, that 5th high slot is hard to fit(requires alot of level 5 skills), but it is indeed *****ble with a useful mod that can help in frig gangs. Quit whining about how it needs to be changed. It's good enough as is. Your eloquence, Sir, surpased mine in praising this fine ship :) Go TEAM!!!!!!!!
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.18 14:03:00 - [161] Originally by: GigaIndy Originally by: Tas Devil Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Agreed. Think I've got 18km optimal with radios... The retribution is a very nice ship that can pretty much take down any other af that doesn't target jam it, when set it up properly. Inties are basically no threat unless they have a beyond 20km warp scrambler and anything that gets in under 10km is toast due to UV/Multifrequency crystals. Also from my experience most assault frigs that decide to engage get blown up before they realize they are in trouble, and thus, no need for a scrambler. As ccp has stated time and time again, there is no need for a solopwnmobile of each class, but the retribution is quite close. Granted, that 5th high slot is hard to fit(requires alot of level 5 skills), but it is indeed ***ble with a useful mod that can help in frig gangs. Quit whining about how it needs to be changed. It's good enough as is. Your eloquence, Sir, surpased mine in praising this fine ship :) Go TEAM!!!!!!!! Noobs ****************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.02.18 14:21:00 - [162] Originally by: Spartan III Noobs What a nice and constructive reply. Very good. Name calling won't get you anything.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.18 14:38:00 - [163] Originally by: Kery Nysell Originally by: Spartan III Noobs What a nice and constructive reply. Very good. Name calling won't get you anything. I'm serious, they say all this stuff that they can't prove, give no hard evidence, and than say everyone else needs to get over it because they think its ok as it is. The provide no numbers, and are obviously just guessing about stuff. Gets irritating when those of us who want the changes can and do provide evidence... ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Shin Ra	Posted - 2006.02.18 15:11:00 - [164] The retribution would be stupidly powerful if it had 2 midslots. Why would anyone fly anything else when a retribution would outmatch all the rest.
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.02.18 15:12:00 - [165] Originally by: Spartan III Originally by: Kery Nysell Originally by: Spartan III Noobs What a nice and constructive reply. Very good. Name calling won't get you anything. I'm serious, they say all this stuff that they can't prove, give no hard evidence, and than say everyone else needs to get over it because they think its ok as it is. The provide no numbers, and are obviously just guessing about stuff. Gets irritating when those of us who want the changes can and do provide evidence... They fly the ship! What use are numbers in comparison to actually taking the ship out yourself and getting a good feel for it?
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.18 15:18:00 - [166] Originally by: BillyBong2 Ok, how about my PvP setup. 4xMedium Pulse II Using Multis, just T1... 3 HS II I use this for Gang Support, used it the other night and got a few kill mails. Don't take my skills into account because, well I have a lot Thanks, and I thought the DPS would come from the drones. I think I might work on getting a Vengence to be Vampiric/Tackler and see what i can come up with. Thanks again Nyxus. No problem mate! AF's in Gank Mode Yarrrrrrr! This was an interesting one. What happens when you set all the af's into "Ultra gank mode". The answer was very suprising to me. In fact, I may start setting my harpy up this way for small frigate gangs where we need more damage output. As someone else pointed out to me, Nuets are hard to fit on the Enyo and Ishkur, so I dropped down to Ions and Electrons respectively. Interestingly enough, unlike thier medium and large brethren, the damage difference between Neut/Ion/Elec is rather small. The DPS variance in full gank mode between the AF's was around 10 DPS, with the greatest difference between the Ishkur and the Harpy at about 18 or so. The Vengeance still sucks. I love the idea of Khanid ships, I just wish they didn't hit like a 2 year old child throwing a tantrum. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.18 15:30:00 - [167] Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Look closely at the 18-20km range. AF dps - Veng still sucks. at 18km with Radios the Retri damage output is roughtly the same as both the Harpy and the Ishkur. It's only better than the Vengeance (becuase it blows) and the Enyo because it is out of range. But remember that it doesnt take long for an ABing enyo to get in blaster range. It's also important to remember that 1 vs 1's don't mean a ship is balanced for group (MMO) play. No Battleship can take a Scorp down 1 vs 1, but it hardly means that it's the best battleship. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Shadow Mancer	Posted - 2006.02.18 16:15:00 - [168] I been reading heaps of people saying Retribution deals crazy damages ect ect, but hey guys did you notice that it takes 4ever to kill a wolf .. retribution in my experience has never managed a wolf b4. 9/10 times i kill a retribution - only 1 time i had to warp away cose both of us agredd in local that this fight will take 4ever cose a retribution couldn't go pass my 50% armor with my small rep running 23/7 CEO and Founder of Warriors of Gods
MacDune	Posted - 2006.02.18 16:35:00 - [169] Originally by: Shadow Mancer I been reading heaps of people saying Retribution deals crazy damages ect ect, but hey guys did you notice that it takes 4ever to kill a wolf .. retribution in my experience has never managed a wolf b4. 9/10 times i kill a retribution - only 1 time i had to warp away cose both of us agredd in local that this fight will take 4ever cose a retribution couldn't go pass my 50% armor with my small rep running 23/7 omg......we're doooooomed.......!!!!! Hell, did you ever noticed the resistances of minmatar-T2-ships against their rp-enemies??
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.02.18 16:40:00 - [170] Please fix spartan so he can stop whining.
tenp1	Posted - 2006.02.18 18:32:00 - [171] Originally by: Livia Tarquina I don't think the ships are being penalized for PVP its the players that penalize themselves for PvP That is true in so many ways
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.18 19:28:00 - [172] First of all, unlike the other ships you compared, there is much more varience... Tank Can fit lower end T2 lasers, some nosferatu, and a mad tank in the low slots easily. Still does nice damage while taking a lot of damage. Gank Can fit the best T2 lasers, plenty of heat sinks and everything you need to support them. Hybrid Can fit for relatively high damage and a tank that will hold off for a long time. Onlike other ships the retribution can fill all the roles nicely (can't set up for gank on an ishkur for example), and most important of all to me the ability to have a balanced hybrid setup. The 'better' enyo has less armor to act as a buffer, and an obviously smaller capacitor, it does however outshine in doing damage up close, wile the retribution can and will do nice damage in a huge variety of ranges. Let's cut the **, let's get to the math... Enyo** - Long Range Fitting (Max Skills) 4 x 125mm Railgun II 2 x DMG Mod 2.4 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 4.74375 (Original * Ship * Gun * Spec * Surgical Strike) Adding in two damage mods to that to that we get... 5.6716 3.25 * .8 = 2.6 + DMG Mod = 2.11 5.6716 / 2.11 * 4 = 10.75184834 Antimatter at 9k optimal = 129 DPS Lead Charge at 18.75k optimal = 86 DPS Enyo - Short Range Fitting (Max Skills) 4 x Light Ion Blaster II 2 x DMG Mod 3.375 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 6.670898438 Then after appying the heatsink ... 7.9757 We then get a ROF of 1.95 with two heat sinks... 7.9757 / 1.95 * 4 = 16.36 Antimatter at 1.4k Optimal = 196.32 Antimatter at 2.5k = 98.16 DPS (Unfair Comparison) Lead Charge S at 2.8k = 130.8 DPS Retribution (Max Skills) 4 x Medium Pulse II 2 x DMG Mod 3.6 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 7.15625 Then after appying the heatsink ... 8.556 We then get a ROF of 2.28 with two heat sinks... 8.556 / 2.28 * 4 = 15.01 Multifreq at 5.6k Optimal = 180.12 DPS Standard at 12k Optimal = 120.08 DPS Final Results Enyo Long Antimatter at 9k optimal = 129 DPS Lead Charge at 18.75k optimal = 86 DPS Enyo Short Antimatter at 1.4k Optimal = 196.32 Antimatter at 2.5k = 98.16 DPS (Unfair Comparison) Lead Charge S at 2.8k = 130.8 DPS Retribution Multifreq at 5.6k Optimal = 180.12 DPS Standard at 12k Optimal = 120.08 DPS Rebunking As you can see the enyo has the advantages at the extreme ranges (< 2) u (>12), however the retribution sweeps the medium ranges (5 - 12) Drone DPS is irrelavent since with max skills it's less then 4 DPS for the enyo, but it is your decision if you want to consider this. Both ships can have a relatively powerful tank, but the retribution does outdo it since it has three more slots to work with, but even if you consider two tanking slots you still get a large buffer due to the larger armor. Now consider this... Retribution has a better tank, and has a more wide range of damage dealing and quick switching. Retribution however can't hold it's prey while remaining viable. Enyo can deal damage far out and can for a limited time period scamble at that range. Retribution can't be configured with viable beam setup. Close range enyo is a chance ship as if you're double webbed you're screwed, thus it needs a 90% webifier to work. It also needs a MWD or again, you're screwed, this also screws up the tank. Thus... Both ships require to be in a gang to reach their true effectiveness, and both ships are deadly in a gang, however the enyo will also help in holding down the enemy. The damage difference is 16.2 DPS but increases with the use of T2 ammo. Enyo must sacrifice range for damage, retribution must sacrifice tackling and some damage for range. Both ships will be deadly with the proper pilot, and honestly I can't say where a 1vs1 with them will go, all depends on starting range and propulsion mods, etc. What kind of limit is 23.4375KB anyway?
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.20 04:09:00 - [173] Hmm, no matter what you say other AFs can hold down their opponents and the retribution can't... And USUALLY you can't find a friend to tackle for you when the enemy is in local. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.20 05:40:00 - [174] Yes but other AFs still need to be in a group to use their high damage setups, a webbed frigite is pretty much a screwed frigite =/ What kind of limit is 23.4375KB anyway?
Huzza Mataa	Posted - 2006.02.20 05:59:00 - [175] Personally I think the Retribution is fine as is. The so called ' useless' hislot can be fitted with something like a Nos (if youre thinking solo, that could be important), helping its cap. Although im only a few months old, I' d say cap is pretty damn important. With a Nos and a couple of well-trained skills a Retri could fire 4 lasers plus keep its cap recharged just in case its tank begins to fail and you need to use an armor repairer. The Retri could survive for about a minute and a half with the armor repairer on. Swapping a hislot to mid would compromise what the Retri is all about-damage and tank. Who said Amarr were about electronics? If you want a solo AF/tackler train another race, seeing as the Veng sucks as is. I think instead of messing with the Retri, the Veng should be fixed with by swapping bonuses or whatever to make it a more viable alternative to solo PvP'ers.
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.20 06:06:00 - [176] can is the operative word, but well is another story. Just because AF's are the flavor of the month build for tackling doesn't mean they have always been good for tackling. It just seems AFs are being used as crutches for their armor resistances. Really if you use an AF for tackling it means your desperate for a dedicated tackler and have to run with what you've got. Hey if I was a spy running from border guards I'd sure as hell want a sports car, but I've got to run with the crappy mini. Get what I'm saying? Or are suddenly yugos all the rage now. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
Arisani	Posted - 2006.02.20 06:26:00 - [177] Leave the Retribution alone. It does it's job excellently. Best frigate tank, best frigate damage. Its only downside: One middle slot. There should never be a ship that is perfect and the best in every single way. If you want tackling power, go fly the Vengeance. What? Not enough tank and firepower on that one? Fly the Retribution again then.
Ante	Posted - 2006.02.20 06:40:00 - [178] Originally by: Spartan III Hmm, no matter what you say other AFs can hold down their opponents and the retribution can't... And USUALLY you can't find a friend to tackle for you when the enemy is in local. Why are you so adamant that all assault ships must be exactly the same? The Retribution is better at different things. Using any ship in a way it isn't designed isn't going to work too well. Having said that 140 dps at 20km range with a j5 scrambler with a great tank is nothing to sneeze at.
Entreri Finwe	Posted - 2006.02.20 11:17:00 - [179] I haven't tried in awhile but last time I tried fitting 4x150mm's and 1 std launcher on my Harpy I ended up lacking PG I think...fitting a MAPC means you have to loose one mag stab... I think most ppl fit 125mm's and then a rocket launcher perhaps? I recall it being low on CPU with a full tank, 2 mag stab II's and 125mm II's. Could we have a graph showing this in comparison with the medium pulses on the Retribution? I recall 125 mm II rails and Medium Pulses having the same fitting constrains... ---
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.20 11:27:00 - [180] Originally by: Spartan III Hmm, no matter what you say other AFs can hold down their opponents and the retribution can't... And USUALLY I can't find a friend to tackle for me when the enemy is in local.

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