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Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.15 06:19:00 - [1] The retribution can't tackle period. If the slots could just be changed from 5/1/5 to 4/2/5 than it could still have the tankability needed for missions so carebears woudn't whine, but it would actually be able to tackle and be able to do solo PvP or at least tackle in gangs. PLEASE! ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Kryptic1	Posted - 2006.02.15 06:25:00 - [2] Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. If the slots could just be changed from 5/1/5 to 4/2/5 than it could still have the tankability needed for missions so carebears woudn't whine, but it would actually be able to tackle and be able to do solo PvP or at least tackle in gangs. Have you noticed how every race's AFs (except caldari) include one that has few midslots but does more damage and has more tank, and one that has 3 midslots, but doesn't do as much damage or tank as much? Do you know that Amarr has another(!) AF called the Vengeance, which happens to have 3 midslots? Have you ever thought that maybe if you wanted to have a tackling AF, you could use the vengeance?
Dust Angel	Posted - 2006.02.15 06:26:00 - [3] its an assault frigate, not a tackler. Works well with a team _____________________________________ Stressed out with empire politics? Sansha's Nation helps clear your mind. If you can't handle the heat, out of the fire. -Capsicum
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.15 06:28:00 - [4] Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. It strikes me that if you want to tackle, you should use a ship that can tackle. Instead of posting that you want your current ship changed to do what you want it to, why not find one that already does what you want it to? Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.15 06:30:00 - [5] Originally by: Kryptic1 Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. If the slots could just be changed from 5/1/5 to 4/2/5 than it could still have the tankability needed for missions so carebears woudn't whine, but it would actually be able to tackle and be able to do solo PvP or at least tackle in gangs. Have you noticed how every race's AFs (except caldari) include one that has few midslots but does more damage and has more tank, and one that has 3 midslots, but doesn't do as much damage or tank as much? Do you know that Amarr has another(!) AF called the Vengeance, which happens to have 3 midslots? Have you ever thought that maybe if you wanted to have a tackling AF, you could use the vengeance? Have you noticed that the Retribution is the only AF with 1 midslot? To make things worse it gets a useless highslot instead of getting a launcher slot like the Wolf, Enyo or Harpy. The Vengeance is a piece of ****, only a nub would say otherwise. _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.15 06:32:00 - [6] Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. It strikes me that if you want to tackle, you should use a ship that can tackle. Instead of posting that you want your current ship changed to do what you want it to, why not find one that already does what you want it to? All other races get 2 AF's that can tackle, your point is nullified. _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Wizie	Posted - 2006.02.15 06:44:00 - [7] I liked the retri, but its 1 utility high should be converted to a mid if anything is changed.
Alliaanna Dalaii	Posted - 2006.02.15 07:52:00 - [8] To people suggesting the Vengeance... lol It is hands down the worst Af in the game, It does NOTHING better than anything else. I use it occasionaly as for solo pirating the Retri just isn't practicle. But tbh the only kills you will get are on badly setup ships or miners Alliaanna Official Follower of =-= Royal Hiigaran Navy =-=
Waut	Posted - 2006.02.15 08:21:00 - [9] Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii To people suggesting the Vengeance... lol It is hands down the worst Af in the game, It does NOTHING better than anything else. I use it occasionaly as for solo pirating the Retri just isn't practicle. But tbh the only kills you will get are on badly setup ships or miners Alliaanna But it looks so darn sexy! Plan for galaxy domination: Step 1. Steal lots of underpants Step 2. ... Step 3. Get declared as Eve Emperor
Cetagee	Posted - 2006.02.15 08:57:00 - [10] It does have 1 med, so why the hell should it not be able to tackle...?? You can fit a scrambler, can't you?? It does not make sense, but you can...
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.02.15 09:07:00 - [11] Originally by: Cetagee It does have 1 med, so why the hell should it not be able to tackle...?? You can fit a scrambler, can't you?? It does not make sense, but you can... Yeah and die to inty... Anyway, even if it gets 4/2/5 it needs 30more cpu... Still it would be sweet to have scrambler on, too. But then again i see caldari cry already :) I use no guns... i smack to death.
Cetagee	Posted - 2006.02.15 09:35:00 - [12] Edited by: Cetagee on 15/02/2006 09:35:48 Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Cetagee It does have 1 med, so why the hell should it not be able to tackle...?? You can fit a scrambler, can't you?? It does not make sense, but you can... Yeah and die to inty... Anyway, even if it gets 4/2/5 it needs 30more cpu... Still it would be sweet to have scrambler on, too. But then again i see caldari cry already :) Yeah, and it would be nice to have 1 or 2 launcher slots to complement the dmg-type eventually....and wait, some drohnes would also be nice...narf What else do you dream of? To have the best frig-sized-tank with very decent numbers and on top of it tackling abilitys?? Would that be balanced?
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.15 09:39:00 - [13] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. It strikes me that if you want to tackle, you should use a ship that can tackle. Instead of posting that you want your current ship changed to do what you want it to, why not find one that already does what you want it to? All other races get 2 AF's that can tackle, your point is nullified. All things aren't intimately equal. They may have two AFs that CAN tackle but they have one specialised in it and one specialised in damage. The Retribution is a mean damage-dealer, the top in its class. You may lose the ability to run mroe than 1 mid slot but you gain damage. You do have a mid slot. Use it. If you're misguidedly using it for an AB or an MWD, might I ask why? It doesn't make a huge difference on an AF to fit an ab or mwd because they are very slow to begin with. The only thing you're going to be tackling is battleships. If you want to tackle, get an interceptor. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.02.15 09:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Nyphur Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. It strikes me that if you want to tackle, you should use a ship that can tackle. Instead of posting that you want your current ship changed to do what you want it to, why not find one that already does what you want it to? All other races get 2 AF's that can tackle, your point is nullified. All 4 races get ships designed for tackling : the Interceptors. From a DEV point of view, the Assault Ships were never designed to tackle, but the players (as usual wanting the butter, the cash for the butter and the smile of the milkmaid) decided to tackle with Assault Ships ... The Retribution, clearly not designed for a tackling role, sucks at it badly, and that seems perfectly fine to me. It's not because the players can fit a ship for a specific role that that ship is good at that role.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.15 09:53:00 - [15] Originally by: Kery Nysell All 4 races get ships designed for tackling : the Interceptors. From a DEV point of view, the Assault Ships were never designed to tackle, but the players (as usual wanting the butter, the cash for the butter and the smile of the milkmaid) decided to tackle with Assault Ships ... The Retribution, clearly not designed for a tackling role, sucks at it badly, and that seems perfectly fine to me. It's not because the players can fit a ship for a specific role that that ship is good at that role. Why is an assault ship preferable as a tackelr to an interceptor? Because it can tank a few drones or something? Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:06:00 - [16] Originally by: Nyphur You do have a mid slot. Use it. If you're misguidedly using it for an AB or an MWD, might I ask why? It doesn't make a huge difference on an AF to fit an ab or mwd because they are very slow to begin with. The only thing you're going to be tackling is battleships. If you want to tackle, get an interceptor. Stop calling it tackling ffs. You need a web + scrambler to kill anything in EVE. If you web them they warp out (and laugh). If you scramble them they'll fly out of scramble range, warp out (and laugh). It's damage isn't anything special, perhaps you should run the numbers again. 20dps here and there means **** if you can't hold your target. The Wolf can web + scramble The Harpy can web + scramble The Enyo can web + scramble The Retribution can web + get laughed at Get it? _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:08:00 - [17] Originally by: Meridius Stop calling it tackling ffs. You need a web + scrambler to kill anything in EVE. What, are you flying that thing solo or don't you have corpmates to help you? Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
hylleX	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:36:00 - [18] Signed lol at the nubs tellin ppl to use vengeance, try it yourself ffs its khanid need i say more ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well kids you've tried your best and failed miserably, the lesson is: never try
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:40:00 - [19] Originally by: Nyphur Why is an assault ship preferable as a tackelr to an interceptor? Because it can tank a few drones or something? I don't know. Personnaly, I'd use a cheap T1 frig like the Condor or the Griffin, fitted with T1 mods, for any tackling duties. That supposes a partner, but we're playing a Massively Multiplayer game, should not be a problem ...
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:44:00 - [20] Originally by: Meridius <snip> Stop calling it tackling ffs. <snip> LOL. You started that.
hylleX	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:44:00 - [21] Originally by: Kery Nysell Originally by: Nyphur Why is an assault ship preferable as a tackelr to an interceptor? Because it can tank a few drones or something? I don't know. Personnaly, I'd use a cheap T1 frig like the Condor or the Griffin, fitted with T1 mods, for any tackling duties. That supposes a partner, but we're playing a Massively Multiplayer game, should not be a problem ... It aint about tackling, its about being able to PVP or not, and guess what to do so u need to be able to hold down ur target. Not everyone is a frickin missiongrinder ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well kids you've tried your best and failed miserably, the lesson is: never try
kessah	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:51:00 - [22] im all for boosting ships specially amarr, but imho its not what the bution is about, cram as much dmg as u can on it and u wont need tackle gear. Its such a brutal ship far superior than all other t2 frigs in the dmg department in fairness. It will destroy harpy and enyo without problems, well ive never had probs --------------------------------------------------------
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:52:00 - [23] Edited by: Nyphur on 15/02/2006 10:52:45 Originally by: hylleX It aint about tackling, its about being able to PVP or not, and guess what to do so u need to be able to hold down ur target. Not everyone is a frickin missiongrinder Are you trying to solo pvp with a retribution? Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Nyphur You do have a mid slot. Use it. If you're misguidedly using it for an AB or an MWD, might I ask why? It doesn't make a huge difference on an AF to fit an ab or mwd because they are very slow to begin with. Lies. Speed = life. Anyway, people need to understand the difference between "can't PvP" (patently untrue) and "can't SOLO PvP" (true but so what?)
hylleX	Posted - 2006.02.15 10:54:00 - [25] Edited by: hylleX on 15/02/2006 10:54:21 Originally by: Nyphur Edited by: Nyphur on 15/02/2006 10:52:45 Originally by: hylleX It aint about tackling, its about being able to PVP or not, and guess what to do so u need to be able to hold down ur target. Not everyone is a frickin missiongrinder Are you trying to solo pvp with a retribution? Nope why would i atm? I would like to be able to do it though. Like ALL the other races can. And dont mention the vengeance plz ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well kids you've tried your best and failed miserably, the lesson is: never try
MuffinsRevenger	Posted - 2006.02.15 11:01:00 - [26] as everyone else say, stop trying to solo pvp in the retri get an interceptor for that insted
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.02.15 11:05:00 - [27] Originally by: hylleX Not everyone is a frickin missiongrinder And you'll find that quite a bit of the eVe population aren't PVP freaks. If a ship doesn't suit your style of play, your purpose ingame or the role you want to play in a fleet, find a ship that fill the niche you want, but don't ask for a modification of a ship that seems perfectly fine in it's role. Assault Ship = high damage dealer with some tanking ... seems to me that the Retribution is doing that just fine.
Grant Smith	Posted - 2006.02.15 11:13:00 - [28] Edited by: Grant Smith on 15/02/2006 11:14:28 Edited by: Grant Smith on 15/02/2006 11:13:37 Originally by: Meridius Stop calling it tackling ffs. You need a web + scrambler to kill anything in EVE. If you web them they warp out (and laugh). If you scramble them they'll fly out of scramble range, warp out (and laugh). It's damage isn't anything special, perhaps you should run the numbers again. 20dps here and there means **** if you can't hold your target. The Wolf can web + scramble The Harpy can web + scramble The Enyo can web + scramble The Retribution can web + get laughed at Get it? Stop whining and get a vengeance, problem solved... or if you dont like it train another frig to l5
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.02.15 11:33:00 - [29] Originally by: Grant Smith Edited by: Grant Smith on 15/02/2006 11:14:28 Edited by: Grant Smith on 15/02/2006 11:13:37 Originally by: Meridius Stop calling it tackling ffs. You need a web + scrambler to kill anything in EVE. If you web them they warp out (and laugh). If you scramble them they'll fly out of scramble range, warp out (and laugh). It's damage isn't anything special, perhaps you should run the numbers again. 20dps here and there means **** if you can't hold your target. The Wolf can web + scramble The Harpy can web + scramble The Enyo can web + scramble The Retribution can web + get laughed at Get it? Stop whining and get a vengeance, problem solved... or if you dont like it train another frig to l5 And die to any inty out there? Ok maybe ares & raptor cannot break your tank, but anything else will kill vengeance. I use no guns... i smack to death.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.02.15 11:45:00 - [30] Originally by: hylleX Nope why would i atm? I would like to be able to do it though. Like ALL the other races can. And dont mention the vengeance plz Nono, it's a valid complaint. Other races have their high damage-dealer AFs able to web and scramble a target but the Amarr don't. It's certainly a valid complaint. However, eve really is a multiplayer game and the retribution is so popular among frigate fleets because it's a very big damage dealer. It can't both web and scramble but it can deal enough damage that it has a lot more use if the target is already immobilised. I know it's not right to tell you that your race has to fight in a gang and other races don't, though. If you're really intent on solo-pvping with a retribution, fit a warp disruptor/scrambler and attack slow targets. You'll take them out a lot faster than the other race's high damage AFs. That's your niche - slow targets. Things that can't outrun you, you'll take out faster than any other AF can. If you need to web it to keep up with it, you'd better be dealing enough damage to destroy it before it gets out of scrambler and weapon range or you're screwed, though. Difficult to use and not as general-purpose as the other AFs but definitely has worth both solo and in a gang. I'm not trying to justify the one mid slot, I'm just telling you what I think is the best way to use what you've got rather than complaining that I want it changed. You might not think it's fair to only be able to take out slow targets solo but it does do it better than the other races. Things aren't always exactly equal between races and ships of teh same class but I am confident that they are, on the whole, fair. Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Marcus Firehawk	Posted - 2006.02.15 12:55:00 - [31] Edited by: Marcus Firehawk on 15/02/2006 12:56:20 Personally I am of the opinion that it doesn't need to be changed. If your ship can't do what you want then change to a different ship or bring a buddy along. I know someone is going to point out that I am minmatar so what do I know If it does get changed I would say change it to a 5/2/4 layout making it similar to the Wolf and Enyo. If you change its utility High slot to a mid then it would still deal the same amount of damage and have a tank better than all the other AF's but then it could also tackle. I think that would unbalance it with the other AFs. If it wants the ability to really tackle then it needs to give up some of its tank.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.15 16:03:00 - [32] VERY SORRY I SAID TACKLING I mean that since it has only 1 mid that must be used for AB that it can't hold its targets and thus cannot be used for solo PvP. I will change my original post so there will be less confusion And yes I was saying change its useless 5th high slot to a mid slot. IT IS THE ONLY AF WITH 1 MID SLOT!!! I havn't checked yet but it is probably the only COMBAT ship with only ONE mid slot. To solo PvP in a frig you need at least a AB/MWD and Scrambler. And yesanything above Low end T1 Cruisers will pwn a vengeance as it has HORRIBLE damage and is REALLY slow. Either the Vengeance needs to switch a mid to a low or the retri needs to change a high to a mid for the Amarrian race to get a good PvP AF that can do more than gank(retri). ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.15 16:06:00 - [33] Coercer only has one mid too. Yes, it makes solo PvP almost impossible. That doesn't show it's broken though, just that it doesn't do what you want it to do...
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.02.15 17:12:00 - [34] 120 threads a month about this... Its a GANG ship, so no no and no, its ebil as it is. Stop making all ships the same. /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.15 17:18:00 - [35] Originally by: LWMaverick 120 threads a month about this... Its a GANG ship, so no no and no, its ebil as it is. Stop making all ships the same. /Mav The Enyo, Wolf and Harpy work fine in gangs as well as solo. Thanks for coming out. _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Gronsak	Posted - 2006.02.15 17:22:00 - [36] tbh all af need to be balanced to be more like the harpy, currently the best at what it was designed to do which is splat t1 frigs and cepters. but since they are tech 2 ships a perfect balance is not needed in the game imo, they got the best AF but their HACs are considered to be poor [bar the cerb since patch] so it kinda evens out. -------------------Sig----------------------- Decrease blaster CPU useage Decrease Hybrid cap useage Balance all weapon systems DO IT SOON
slip66	Posted - 2006.02.15 17:44:00 - [37] Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Cetagee It does have 1 med, so why the hell should it not be able to tackle...?? You can fit a scrambler, can't you?? It does not make sense, but you can... Yeah and die to inty... Anyway, even if it gets 4/2/5 it needs 30more cpu... Still it would be sweet to have scrambler on, too. But then again i see caldari cry already :) no way they can say a darn thing. The harpy is prolly the best all round af with its 4 mids. You can also use 4 guns and a luncher on it :/ unlike the ret. Originally by: StOrM ViPeR Theres a skill called surgical strike in game I've learned that it actually stands for Band of Brothers
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:20:00 - [38] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick 120 threads a month about this... Its a GANG ship, so no no and no, its ebil as it is. Stop making all ships the same. /Mav The Enyo, Wolf and Harpy work fine in gangs as well as solo. Thanks for coming out. Not as extreme as the retribution. Thanks for comming out?.. eh? With great power, comes great responsibility.
LUKEC	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:39:00 - [39] well unless it gets massive cpu boost, 4/2/5 layout won't really help... Oh and please underestimate my retri. I use no guns... i smack to death.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.15 18:55:00 - [40] Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick 120 threads a month about this... Its a GANG ship, so no no and no, its ebil as it is. Stop making all ships the same. /Mav The Enyo, Wolf and Harpy work fine in gangs as well as solo. Thanks for coming out. Not as extreme as the retribution. Thanks for comming out?.. eh? Uh the Harpy has 4 mids and can use it's best ammo at 20km. Far more usefull to a gang then a Retribution. A Harpy can do 150DPS at 20km with a rack of 150mm II's and 2 magstabs. At this point it will have 74cpu/21 pg free to fit it's 4 mids + high. The Retribution can do 196DPS at 11km with 3 sinks. To match the Harpy's range you have to use ultraviolet which gets you 147DPS at 19km of range. At this point you have 3 cpu and 3 pg free to fill your 2 lows, 1 mid and 1 highslot with This setup has a nice damage peak at 11km over the Harpy but that is useless you want to fly around with 4 empty slots and zero defense. You might as well use a Coercer (and i have) since it does more damage then a Retri in the same defenseless fashion...it's also a fraction the price. So lets try dual light beams, 163DPS at 9.8km. Complete crap compared to the Harpy. You'd have to use standard crystals to get 19km and you'll only be doing 108DPS. Yeah, extreme _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.15 20:05:00 - [41] The Retri is the ONLY AF in frigate sized ship(intys, T1, and T2 frigs) that has only 1 mid slot. Look at the Enyo, an amazing frigate with a great layout and bonuses to complement it. It has great damage, ok tank, and enough mids to stop its enemy from escaping. The retri on the other hand has a horrible layout. It has an unused high slot and only 1 mid slot. Now lets see what happens when the retri attacks a ship of equal base speed(like another AF). It cannot equip an AB unlike its target, but anyway it begins the fight and scrambles. The fight goes on, and lets say that the retri pilot is winning. The other pilot decides to try to get out of scramble range so that he can escape. He turns on his ab and then suddenly is out of range in under 10 seconds easily warping away and out of the fight because the retri was only going half his speed. The retri could always equip an AB instead of a scramble but of course then the target could warp at any time. From an RP perspective amarr piltos wanting to PvP would either have to fly vengeances or fly a retri and have a frigate tackle for the, WHILE THEY THEMSELVES ARE FLYING A FRIGATE!!1! This is unheard of. I do not want to fly another races AF so i am stuck using the vengeance with its crappy damage and slow speed. At least its the cheapest AF at under 10mill a pop, and yes, flying it will get you popped. Please also remember that AFs role is not gang fire support so anyone saying that the retri can be used for that is a noob. It cannot tackle in a gang for the obvious reason of only 1 mid. And it cannot solo PvP for my reasons stated above. So is it doomed to be the BEST NPC AF in the game? I sure hope not, please sign this petition to help get it fixed and move that "unused" high slot to a needed mid slot. And if it needs more CPU(which i don't think it does) than give it a lil extra CPU. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.02.15 20:33:00 - [42] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick 120 threads a month about this... Its a GANG ship, so no no and no, its ebil as it is. Stop making all ships the same. /Mav The Enyo, Wolf and Harpy work fine in gangs as well as solo. Thanks for coming out. Not as extreme as the retribution. Thanks for comming out?.. eh? Uh the Harpy has 4 mids and can use it's best ammo at 20km. Far more usefull to a gang then a Retribution. A Harpy can do 150DPS at 20km with a rack of 150mm II's and 2 magstabs. At this point it will have 74cpu/21 pg free to fit it's 4 mids + high. The Retribution can do 196DPS at 11km with 3 sinks. To match the Harpy's range you have to use ultraviolet which gets you 147DPS at 19km of range. At this point you have 3 cpu and 3 pg free to fill your 2 lows, 1 mid and 1 highslot with This setup has a nice damage peak at 11km over the Harpy but that is useless you want to fly around with 4 empty slots and zero defense. You might as well use a Coercer (and i have) since it does more damage then a Retri in the same defenseless fashion...it's also a fraction the price. So lets try dual light beams, 163DPS at 9.8km. Complete crap compared to the Harpy. You'd have to use standard crystals to get 19km and you'll only be doing 108DPS. Yeah, extreme Listen up smarty... Damage is not all now is it? Being able to nos, tank ebil and deal crazy damage at the same time is really useful, and the Retribution does all that really really good. And don't give me that "but harpy tanks better with a gisti Sb..." cause imagine a Retribution with faction reps/hardners/nos? /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
Miabio	Posted - 2006.02.15 21:42:00 - [43] It needs another mid slot. I really don't care about the arguments concerning sol and group pvp, tackling and other pointless diversions. What I see in the Retribution is a great ship that can't hold down a target. Solo or not, Scrams and AB/WMD are the first two mods you fit for PvP group or solo. Cases where you fit otherwise s an exception to your 'standard' outfit. With three mids, you fit Web, WMD, Scram, and so forth, The Retri needs a scond mid - its not going to make it overpowered. As for the vengence (for that matter all Khanid ships). . . moving a few mod slots is not going to fix it - it needs a total reworking. Its too bad since I love that siver shine!! Stay on topic, the retri needs a second mid.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.16 01:47:00 - [44] Originally by: Miabio It needs another mid slot. I really don't care about the arguments concerning sol and group pvp, tackling and other pointless diversions. What I see in the Retribution is a great ship that can't hold down a target. Solo or not, Scrams and AB/WMD are the first two mods you fit for PvP group or solo. Cases where you fit otherwise s an exception to your 'standard' outfit. With three mids, you fit Web, WMD, Scram, and so forth, The Retri needs a scond mid - its not going to make it overpowered. As for the vengence (for that matter all Khanid ships). . . moving a few mod slots is not going to fix it - it needs a total reworking. Its too bad since I love that siver shine!! Stay on topic, the retri needs a second mid. Your completely right about the Retri and vengeance. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.02.16 01:59:00 - [45] 3rd AF for everyone! holyporkchops! 4/2/4 Amarr AF w/ tracking bonus sounds sweet.
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.16 03:56:00 - [46] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Kryptic1 Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. If the slots could just be changed from 5/1/5 to 4/2/5 than it could still have the tankability needed for missions so carebears woudn't whine, but it would actually be able to tackle and be able to do solo PvP or at least tackle in gangs. Have you noticed how every race's AFs (except caldari) include one that has few midslots but does more damage and has more tank, and one that has 3 midslots, but doesn't do as much damage or tank as much? Do you know that Amarr has another(!) AF called the Vengeance, which happens to have 3 midslots? Have you ever thought that maybe if you wanted to have a tackling AF, you could use the vengeance? Have you noticed that the Retribution is the only AF with 1 midslot? To make things worse it gets a useless highslot instead of getting a launcher slot like the Wolf, Enyo or Harpy. The Vengeance is a piece of ****, only a nub would say otherwise. ' fit a nos.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.16 04:09:00 - [47] Originally by: LWMaverick Listen up smarty... Damage is not all now is it? Being able to nos, tank ebil and deal crazy damage at the same time is really useful, and the Retribution does all that really really good. And don't give me that "but harpy tanks better with a gisti Sb..." cause imagine a Retribution with faction reps/hardners/nos? /Mav Being able to nos wow, with 1 whole small nos. Insane! Please stop pumping this forum with tripe and paste in your leet Retribution setup. You do have one don't you? Paste it so i can tear it. _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Weirda	Posted - 2006.02.16 04:44:00 - [48] Edited by: Weirda on 16/02/2006 04:52:04 Originally by: Alliaanna Dalaii To people suggesting the Vengeance... lol It is hands down the worst Af in the game, It does NOTHING better than anything else. I use it occasionaly as for solo pirating the Retri just isn't practicle. But tbh the only kills you will get are on badly setup ships or miners Alliaanna or enyos... or ishkurs... or hawks... or harpys... but maybe you haven't tried to kill them though (noticing miners on you list) @Retribution Weirda have said this over and over... if it had 2 mids, all other AS would be pointless. really. truly. __ Weirda Assault Ship deserve a 4th Bonus and More!
Sandler	Posted - 2006.02.16 04:48:00 - [49] /Signed. Being able to fit a webber would be kinda helpful in PVP.
Weirda	Posted - 2006.02.16 04:50:00 - [50] Originally by: Meridius Have you noticed that the Retribution is the only AF with 1 midslot? To make things worse it gets a useless highslot instead of getting a launcher slot like the Wolf, Enyo or Harpy. thank god for that extra 7 dps (roflcopter) Originally by: Meridius The Vengeance is a piece of **, only a nub would say otherwise. noob here - but Meridius know Weirda noob already but it is not a piece of **. could use it missing slot (4th mid plz) and a 4th bonus though. @OP: check weirda sig link - post some idea there... when AS get they 4th bonus and the 'weirdo' AS get their missing slot it might not be the issue it is now. __ Weirda Assault Ship deserve a 4th Bonus and More!
Kyguard	Posted - 2006.02.16 05:19:00 - [51] Originally by: LUKEC And die to any inty out there? Ok maybe ares & raptor cannot break your tank, but anything else will kill vengeance. QFT. Any interceptor will break a vengeance's tank. Amarr AFs simply lack in any AF aspect. -\|- Join LFC, become someone, become family.
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.16 05:24:00 - [52] Want to buy clue. Spartan, as I have noted on the other forums and my observations of you. The retribution isn't a versitile AF like other ones can be, it will constantly perform and excell at specific roles, any it can fill many roles but tackling is not one of them. Most people fly AFs in gangs, very rarely are they used for solo combat. The retribution is the punching power of any good frigite gang, it will tear mercilessly through targets, from interceptors to battleships. It is a very high damaging ship capable of taking massive ammounts of damage. Startbombing battleships are simply shrugged off. And I will say this as nicely as possible. Do not assume you can get a cookie cutter setup for an ship piloted by more skilled pilots and do good. The retribution is like a megathron of the assault frigites. It needs a good setup, good tactics, and a good pilot to be deadly, much more deadlier then most AFs. (Spare me the range and web arguements) Other AFs are more forgiving, the retribution is not. I do belive that the retribution is a gang ship, but I have seen relative success using it solo, many times my targets would be naive to warp out before the pod came sailing out of their ship. Other times with my quick dabble into empire piracy I would swap out my propulsion mods for a warp disruptor, but then again; please underestimate the ship, hope to see you on the field.
Xio2	Posted - 2006.02.16 05:51:00 - [53] haha..i see some of you comparing the Retributions mid's to the harpys. roflomgbbz..its caldari and it shield tanks. plz. -------------- now this is the way a sig should be Xio2
Shin Ra	Posted - 2006.02.16 05:58:00 - [54] I've had great success with a Vengreance as a tackler. A raven hunting angels isn't going to take you down, period. Slap a couple of nos' on and you never running out of cap either.
Hobbledehoy	Posted - 2006.02.16 06:24:00 - [55] Originally by: hylleX Signed lol at the nubs tellin ppl to use vengeance, try it yourself ffs its khanid need i say more Call me a noob if you want, but I don't think the vengeance is 'bad' it's just what the person that started this thread is looking for. It's more sturdy than a ceptor and has mid slots to fit a web + scramble + AB or EW. As for the tank issue, it has 3 low slots which is more than enough to set up a nice armor tank. All you're missing is the dammage dealing potential; if you want a good tank, you have to sacrifice DPS. Conclusion: it's a different style of ship for a different fighting style. Here's the 2 strategies: Retribution: out tank, out gun everything you see & hope that they don't run or that your buddy can keep them from running. Vengeance: more well rounded ship with some EW potential, mediocre DPS and Mediocre tank. <--- for an AF, good dps and tank compared to ceptors, cruisers, t1 frigs. my 2 cents, Hob PS: I think the vengeance is very comparable to the Ishkur, which I love.
Cosmo Raata	Posted - 2006.02.16 06:35:00 - [56] Signed-- Just dump both Amarr AF & start over pls.
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.16 07:27:00 - [57] Reading some how some posters have one single style of playing that they force others to accept when others have had success with different ways of playing makes me a little sick to my stomach. The act of automatically slapping 2 nos's, a scrambler, a webber, and a couple of blasters for every ship, an industrial if they could and probably will whine for, smacks of cookie cutter syndrome. I joined eve to get away from that. Retribution fits the old traditional Amarr form of warfare which is big heavy brute force wins over subtlety. Debuffing is something that outsiders do which is why it makes sense that the Khanid designed ship is made for tackling. Most amarr ships from the looks of it have less midslots on the average than other races. Why not argue for more mids on ALL amarr ships.
munkehdotnet	Posted - 2006.02.16 07:54:00 - [58] I'm torn between saying add another mid/ not but look at the harpy with a gistii it can Tank & do as much damage as a retri with blasters(using blasters since you cant actually fit beams with a decenty setup on the retri). so like the harpy can tank web scram and have damage mod & pdu II in the lowslots & it has the utility slot for a nosf. the veng sucks i've sparred vs people in them that are older than me in the game and i just *****thier shields and armor in a retri. & to people who say you should pvp with corp mates etc. well there is times where i will be the only person online in my corp and i cant exactly get fred my inivisble corpmate to tackle can i?
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.16 08:08:00 - [59] Originally by: Weirda noob here - but Meridius know Weirda noob already but it is not a piece of **. could use it missing slot (4th mid plz) and a 4th bonus though. @OP: check weirda sig link - post some idea there... when AS get they 4th bonus and the 'weirdo' AS get their missing slot it might not be the issue it is now. The Vengeance gets outdamaged by tech i frigates. I'm sorry, i just can't get past that as it is an Assault Frigate**. _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Elaina Cosengo	Posted - 2006.02.16 09:33:00 - [60] Originally by: kessah im all for boosting ships specially amarr, but imho its not what the bution is about, cram as much dmg as u can on it and u wont need tackle gear. Its such a brutal ship far superior than all other t2 frigs in the dmg department in fairness. It will destroy harpy and enyo without problems, well ive never had probs lol thats a joke right kessah, haha give the Ret its extra mid slot aint nothing gonna save it v Harpy. hehe that made my day
DeadDuck	Posted - 2006.02.16 09:35:00 - [61] Originally by: <EVE Online \| EVE Insider \| Forums
DeadDuck	Posted - 2006.02.16 09:35:00 - [62] Originally by: Cosmo Raata Signed-- Just dump both Amarr AF & start over pls. I only fly amarr ships ... Theres nothing wrong with the AF's ... The Retribution isn't a solo pvp ship !!! but what a punch it gives, the ship is a mini Zealot ... just make a small gang with a vengeance and it it will be a deadly pair ...
Booju	Posted - 2006.02.16 10:37:00 - [63] Edited by: Booju on 16/02/2006 10:37:44 So everyone's saying that in order to make the Retribution competive like the other high-damage Assault Friggies all I have to do is sacrifice all my tank and bring along a friend! What great advice! Now, if only there were a mod that jump-portals in a friendly frigate to tackle for me! I know, I'll put it in my useless hi-slot, you know, when every other AF gets a missile slot there to do damage with. Or maybe I should stick with the small nosferatu in there; it's so much help when I'm engaging my target with beams at a range of 10km or more, I'm sure glad of that utility slot!
Weirda	Posted - 2006.02.16 10:47:00 - [64] Originally by: Booju Edited by: Booju on 16/02/2006 10:37:44 So everyone's saying that in order to make the Retribution competive like the other high-damage Assault Friggies all I have to do is sacrifice all my tank and bring along a friend! What great advice! Now, if only there were a mod that jump-portals in a friendly frigate to tackle for me! I know, I'll put it in my useless hi-slot, you know, when every other AF gets a missile slot there to do damage with. Or maybe I should stick with the small nosferatu in there; it's so much help when I'm engaging my target with beams at a range of 10km or more, I'm sure glad of that utility slot! no. that's not what weirda saying anyways... change you name to 'boo-hoo' __ Weirda Assault Ship deserve a 4th Bonus and More!
DeadDuck	Posted - 2006.02.16 10:49:00 - [65] Originally by: Booju Edited by: Booju on 16/02/2006 10:37:44 So everyone's saying that in order to make the Retribution competive like the other high-damage Assault Friggies all I have to do is sacrifice all my tank and bring along a friend! What great advice! Now, if only there were a mod that jump-portals in a friendly frigate to tackle for me! I know, I'll put it in my useless hi-slot, you know, when every other AF gets a missile slot there to do damage with. Or maybe I should stick with the small nosferatu in there; it's so much help when I'm engaging my target with beams at a range of 10km or more, I'm sure glad of that utility slot! Well instead of whinning because the ship doesnt fit your setup ... maybe you should adapt your setup to the ship ... Fit med pulse lasers and the small nos will be usefull, or fit a cloack in the high slot an it will be usefull !!!!
Nova Strikes	Posted - 2006.02.16 10:53:00 - [66] I fit a Nos on my Harpy anyway, only ever use the launcher slot for ratting.
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.16 11:02:00 - [67] Stop treating these ships like skins where you can just have your setup with a cool appearance. Choose a different ship that fits your strategy.
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.02.16 11:33:00 - [68] Edited by: Twilight Moon on 16/02/2006 11:33:54 Originally by: Booju Edited by: Booju on 16/02/2006 10:37:44 So everyone's saying that in order to make the Retribution competive like the other high-damage Assault Friggies all I have to do is sacrifice all my tank and bring along a friend! What great advice! Now, if only there were a mod that jump-portals in a friendly frigate to tackle for me! I know, I'll put it in my useless hi-slot, you know, when every other AF gets a missile slot there to do damage with. Or maybe I should stick with the small nosferatu in there; it's so much help when I'm engaging my target with beams at a range of 10km or more, I'm sure glad of that utility slot! Oh boo-hoo. Amarr are not renowned for extensive missile use. And just because you choose to put long range beans on your Ret, making NOS useless, does not make that slot useless to others. Thats all this thread is....a whinge because some solo PvP'ers want to use the Ret to hold down their targets. Well guess what? he ship doesnt have the slots for that. Go fly something else, that is more designed to fill that role, don't come and whinge on the forums because a ship layout doesnt suit you. Is there something written down somewhere that I have missed that states "All AF's MUST be able to fit an AB/MWD and a Scrambler"? Why should they? Because they dont suit PvP'ers otherwise? Cry me a river.
Gariuys	Posted - 2006.02.16 11:39:00 - [69] Originally by: Twilight Moon Edited by: Twilight Moon on 16/02/2006 11:33:54 Originally by: Booju Edited by: Booju on 16/02/2006 10:37:44 So everyone's saying that in order to make the Retribution competive like the other high-damage Assault Friggies all I have to do is sacrifice all my tank and bring along a friend! What great advice! Now, if only there were a mod that jump-portals in a friendly frigate to tackle for me! I know, I'll put it in my useless hi-slot, you know, when every other AF gets a missile slot there to do damage with. Or maybe I should stick with the small nosferatu in there; it's so much help when I'm engaging my target with beams at a range of 10km or more, I'm sure glad of that utility slot! Oh boo-hoo. Amarr are not renowned for extensive missile use. And just because you choose to put long range beans on your Ret, making NOS useless, does not make that slot useless to others. Thats all this thread is....a whinge because some solo PvP'ers want to use the Ret to hold down their targets. Well guess what? he ship doesnt have the slots for that. Go fly something else, that is more designed to fill that role, don't come and whinge on the forums because a ship layout doesnt suit you. Is there something written down somewhere that I have missed that states "All AF's MUST be able to fit an AB/MWD and a Scrambler"? Why should they? Because they dont suit PvP'ers otherwise? Cry me a river. Yeah really annoying, weird isn't it all those weirdos that think of a nice setup and then go "damn" because they bought the wrong ship... I wish they would anyway. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.16 12:59:00 - [70] If you give the retribution a 2nd mid slot, it will become so overpowered everyone will use it, and prices will reach 30million iskiespoos. Why? Cause Its the best god damn frigate in the game. If you dont like it how it is fine. I dont have problems getting kills.
Booju	Posted - 2006.02.16 14:40:00 - [71] Originally by: Twilight Moon Edited by: Twilight Moon on 16/02/2006 11:33:54 Originally by: Booju Edited by: Booju on 16/02/2006 10:37:44 So everyone's saying that in order to make the Retribution competive like the other high-damage Assault Friggies all I have to do is sacrifice all my tank and bring along a friend! What great advice! Now, if only there were a mod that jump-portals in a friendly frigate to tackle for me! I know, I'll put it in my useless hi-slot, you know, when every other AF gets a missile slot there to do damage with. Or maybe I should stick with the small nosferatu in there; it's so much help when I'm engaging my target with beams at a range of 10km or more, I'm sure glad of that utility slot! Oh boo-hoo. Amarr are not renowned for extensive missile use. And just because you choose to put long range beans on your Ret, making NOS useless, does not make that slot useless to others. Thats all this thread is....a whinge because some solo PvP'ers want to use the Ret to hold down their targets. Well guess what? he ship doesnt have the slots for that. Go fly something else, that is more designed to fill that role, don't come and whinge on the forums because a ship layout doesnt suit you. Is there something written down somewhere that I have missed that states "All AF's MUST be able to fit an AB/MWD and a Scrambler"? Why should they? Because they dont suit PvP'ers otherwise? Cry me a river. So, what would you put in the high-slot that's sooooo good then? Cloaks are one option but ruin your lock-time. Drone augmentor? No drone bay. Smartbomb? Suck up too much cap and provide a marginal defence at best. Nosferatu? Good on some setups but if you're not going long-range which is pretty much what assault frigs are designed for. Going shortrange is fine, it has a use then but filling your one med-slot with an AB/MWD to get you into range means you can't web or scramble, hope you didn't want to kill that guy! Some guy mentioned fitting a nosferatu onto his Harpy instead of a launcher. Fair enough, but at least you have that option of fitting stuff into your hi-slot that isn't something above. It's not like missiles are unprecedented on Amarr ships so go on and give it a missile slot (or even better, another gun :P). I'm not saying you can't fit a Retribution but you can't fit it as well as say, the Enyo and the Harpy.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.16 14:41:00 - [72] Originally by: Livia Tarquina Reading some how some posters have one single style of playing that they force others to accept when others have had success with different ways of playing makes me a little sick to my stomach. The act of automatically slapping 2 nos's, a scrambler, a webber, and a couple of blasters for every ship, an industrial if they could and probably will whine for, smacks of cookie cutter syndrome. I joined eve to get away from that. Retribution fits the old traditional Amarr form of warfare which is big heavy brute force wins over subtlety. Debuffing is something that outsiders do which is why it makes sense that the Khanid designed ship is made for tackling. Most amarr ships from the looks of it have less midslots on the average than other races. Why not argue for more mids on ALL amarr ships. The fact remains that the retribution is the ONLY AF in the entire game, no wait, the only FRIGATE in the entire game that has only 1 mid slot. ALL other amarr ships(except there destroyer) have at least 2 mids. Having less mids than the other races is fine, but a frigate class ship needs to have 2 mids. No matter which AF you look you will always see them equipped with a scramble/disruptor and an AB. The Retribution is the only exception to that. I personally do fly a vengeance, and have gotten kills with it were it was totally overkill for an AF. As soon as i come up against another AF though I get pwned and pwned bad. It has no damage bonuses and far too little low slots for damage mods so it ends up doing the SAME damage as a T1 frig with T2 weapons. The retribution has a USELESS highslot and seriously needs another mid slot so it can be balanced. And NO AFs are most certainly not gang ships. Frigates are used for solo pirating/PvPing more than any other ship in the game atm. The role of the AF class is to be able to go solo and take on bigger targets than themselves, but the retribution can't do that unless its fighting a noob who forgot how to warp. All other AFs can of course do that. All I am asking for is a mid slot. Change 1 high slot to a mid, and it will not become overpowered. It will become balanced and inlign with all the other AFs out there. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.02.16 14:51:00 - [73] Edited by: LWMaverick on 16/02/2006 14:54:20 Edited by: LWMaverick on 16/02/2006 14:51:00 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick Listen up smarty... Damage is not all now is it? Being able to nos, tank ebil and deal crazy damage at the same time is really useful, and the Retribution does all that really really good. And don't give me that "but harpy tanks better with a gisti Sb..." cause imagine a Retribution with faction reps/hardners/nos? /Mav Being able to nos wow, with 1 whole small nos. Insane! Please stop pumping this forum with tripe and paste in your leet Retribution setup. You do have one don't you? Paste it so i can tear it. Man.. your a pain in the ass huh? Here we go: 4 Medium pulses t2 Small dimishing nos Fleeting web(90%) 2 Small t2 armor reps N-type Enegergized thermic(or t2) CPR HS T2 /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.16 14:54:00 - [74] How often do you victims warp away mav? And if they don't realize that they are not being scrambled now they deffinantly will notice when the warp scramble indicator comes out. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.02.16 15:02:00 - [75] Originally by: Spartan III How often do you victims warp away mav? And if they don't realize that they are not being scrambled now they deffinantly will notice when the warp scramble indicator comes out. Well, they usually don't warp anywhere if they are being scrambled by a friend in an interceptor. But solo, well, most of the time people die before they even think of warping away.(The only AF i had problems killing was the wolf(high resist), tanked him, sucked him dry and popped him. It does have a solo problem, im not saying that it hasnt, but its not the worst frigate out there, and a mid slot more would make it insane, imagine that i put a t2 cap recharger on top of that setup of mine, no other would be able to kill it. /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.16 15:07:00 - [76] What in gods name makes you think AFs = one man pwn mobiles? No ship in eve is susposed to be a one man pwn mobile Learn to fly with friends. As for killing things, I get plenty of kills with it, you'd be suprised how many people die before they can even turn to warp. If you want to solo hunt, I recomend you try a crusader or a vengeance. Both are fine ships.
tenp1	Posted - 2006.02.16 15:32:00 - [77] When it comes to tanking/ damage and Tackling ew it goes like this at the mo Harpy+Enyo - Both have similar potential and ease of fitting damage, tanking and EW Wolf - EW with no problems, but then either tank well or low grade tank and damage Retribution - Poor EW, good tank and damage So the enyo and Harpy can do all three easily with no real probs. Now the wolf is in a similar position to the ret (needs a little more grid), but at least it is capable of managing all 3, even if it's only 2 at a time. The ret on the other hand can do 2 well and 1 Poorly. Easy and simple balance, ret gets a high moved to mid and the wolf gets a bit more PG. Thats all sorted, and to those who say a dual mid ret would be overpowered, take a look at the cpu on it.
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.02.16 15:35:00 - [78] Originally by: tenp1 When it comes to tanking/ damage and Tackling ew it goes like this at the mo Harpy+Enyo - Both have similar potential and ease of fitting damage, tanking and EW Wolf - EW with no problems, but then either tank well or low grade tank and damage Retribution - Poor EW, good tank and damage So the enyo and Harpy can do all three easily with no real probs. Now the wolf is in a similar position to the ret (needs a little more grid), but at least it is capable of managing all 3, even if it's only 2 at a time. The ret on the other hand can do 2 well and 1 Poorly. Easy and simple balance, ret gets a high moved to mid and the wolf gets a bit more PG. Thats all sorted, and to those who say a dual mid ret would be overpowered, take a look at the cpu on it. If the retribution gets another mid slot, then it needs more cpu. Whats the point of giving it another mid if it hasnt got the cpu to support it ? With great power, comes great responsibility.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.16 15:39:00 - [79] Originally by: tenp1 When it comes to tanking/ damage and Tackling ew it goes like this at the mo Harpy+Enyo - Both have similar potential and ease of fitting damage, tanking and EW Wolf - EW with no problems, but then either tank well or low grade tank and damage Retribution - Poor EW, good tank and damage So the enyo and Harpy can do all three easily with no real probs. Now the wolf is in a similar position to the ret (needs a little more grid), but at least it is capable of managing all 3, even if it's only 2 at a time. The ret on the other hand can do 2 well and 1 Poorly. Easy and simple balance, ret gets a high moved to mid and the wolf gets a bit more PG. Thats all sorted, and to those who say a dual mid ret would be overpowered, take a look at the cpu on it. exzactly, just look at the CPU on it. an AF is a frigate and frigates should always be able to hold their opponent which requires an AB and scrambler. All frigates can hold their opponents with the acception of the retribution. And allowing it to hole its opponent like every other AF can will not make it overpowered. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
tenp1	Posted - 2006.02.16 15:45:00 - [80] Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: tenp1 When it comes to tanking/ damage and Tackling ew it goes like this at the mo Harpy+Enyo - Both have similar potential and ease of fitting damage, tanking and EW Wolf - EW with no problems, but then either tank well or low grade tank and damage Retribution - Poor EW, good tank and damage So the enyo and Harpy can do all three easily with no real probs. Now the wolf is in a similar position to the ret (needs a little more grid), but at least it is capable of managing all 3, even if it's only 2 at a time. The ret on the other hand can do 2 well and 1 Poorly. Easy and simple balance, ret gets a high moved to mid and the wolf gets a bit more PG. Thats all sorted, and to those who say a dual mid ret would be overpowered, take a look at the cpu on it. If the retribution gets another mid slot, then it needs more cpu. Whats the point of giving it another mid if it hasnt got the cpu to support it ? Because as so many others have said, dual mid ret makes other assaults obsolete. I wouldn't go that far, but I assume that assumption is made with the further assumption that it will have the CPU to use it as well as it's current high damage and good tank setup. No, it will have to compromise on turrets and/or maybe fit a CPU II in one of the lows. However it will still be able to compete on a more even playing field.
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.16 15:51:00 - [81] Originally by: Spartan III Originally by: tenp1 When it comes to tanking/ damage and Tackling ew it goes like this at the mo Harpy+Enyo - Both have similar potential and ease of fitting damage, tanking and EW Wolf - EW with no problems, but then either tank well or low grade tank and damage Retribution - Poor EW, good tank and damage So the enyo and Harpy can do all three easily with no real probs. Now the wolf is in a similar position to the ret (needs a little more grid), but at least it is capable of managing all 3, even if it's only 2 at a time. The ret on the other hand can do 2 well and 1 Poorly. Easy and simple balance, ret gets a high moved to mid and the wolf gets a bit more PG. Thats all sorted, and to those who say a dual mid ret would be overpowered, take a look at the cpu on it. exzactly, just look at the CPU on it. an AF is a frigate and frigates should always be able to hold their opponent which requires an AB and scrambler. All frigates can hold their opponents with the acception of the retribution. And allowing it to hole its opponent like every other AF can will not make it overpowered. Maybe you fail to see how awesome the retribution is. Best frigate tank around, plus some amazing DPS. Cap can sustain Ab/guns/Hardner/Armor rep. FOREVER. Now you want it to be able to tackle as well? .... While we're at it, why dont we just mount capital armor reps on it, and a jump drive
Jaketh Ivanes	Posted - 2006.02.16 15:51:00 - [82] No, no changes to the Retribution is needed. 1) Why does all ships have to have the excatly same layouts???!! Whats wrong with you people? 2) This is a MMO? Get a team togeather. 3) Wanna solo pirate in an AF, use another that suits your purpose. Or perhaps use an interceptor??? 4) 5th highslot isn't useless.
Cetagee	Posted - 2006.02.16 16:22:00 - [83] No, i would prefer a bonus to mounting a siege launcher for torps....wouldn't that be nice?? And maybe some more drohnes, so app. 5 lights?? Some ppl really have to learn a lot more, especially to adapt!
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.16 16:32:00 - [84] Originally by: Spartan III an AF is a frigate and frigates should always be able to hold their opponent which requires an AB and scrambler. All frigates can hold their opponents with the acception of the retribution. And allowing it to hole its opponent like every other AF can will not make it overpowered. \ An AF is not supposed to be used as a tackler, some can fufill both roles, but the retribution is unique. Instead of being a carebearing and whining why don't you train for annother races AFs? Will take less then two weeks for both Frig V and T2 small guns.
BillyBong2	Posted - 2006.02.16 16:56:00 - [85] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Spartan III an AF is a frigate and frigates should always be able to hold their opponent which requires an AB and scrambler. All frigates can hold their opponents with the acception of the retribution. And allowing it to hole its opponent like every other AF can will not make it overpowered. An AF is not supposed to be used as a tackler, some can fufill both roles, but the retribution is unique. Instead of being a carebearing and whining why don't you train for annother races AFs? Will take less then two weeks for both Frig V and T2 small guns. Very good advice on the other race. I am 100% amarr with some Caldari thrown in. I have looked at Weirda's advice on the AFs. Here is what I have come up with. IF we look at the Amarr AFs what do you see in terms of bonues? Well, the Retribution is all Damage/Tank. What exactly is the Vengence? It has some weird bonuses....This assualt frigate fills a unigue role as well, it is not a damage dealing AF in the slightest. So what could it be used for? Well, for 1 it is off the punisher frigate so it has 3 mid slots. Tackling/ ? ? ? what could it do? The ships gets a bonus to cap recharge...hrmm....I am going to take a look at the fitting requirements but I think this AF fills the role the Amarr need in a T1 frigate. IT can tackle/Tank/ and Vamp ships. As Weirda mentions in another Vengance thread, think control with this ship. If I can get a few Small Nos's on it and tackle it, the vengence becomes a great tackler..... Now, AFs should be gang ships in my opinion. Guess what? Vengence + Retribution = dead target. They will be webbed, scrambled, sucked dry and ripped to shreads. If those two ships worked together in Piracy unless the other ships knew who to target first....They could do some serious damage out there. I agree with Shin Ra and Aeaus, they are both unique ships and fill a void for the Amarr. I know I love my retribtion and I use it in Gang combat and I have gotten a few kill mails because I am fireing 1 of my 4 pulses every 2 seconds. Siggy by Esturary
Laythun	Posted - 2006.02.16 17:01:00 - [86] anyone that hasnt flown a retribution needs to stop posting. NOW. Cos you dont know waht your talking about. furthermore its true EVERY OTHER Af can scramble and web or afb (if you like speed).
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.02.16 17:25:00 - [87] Edited by: Twilight Moon on 16/02/2006 17:25:34 Originally by: Laythun furthermore its true EVERY OTHER Af can scramble and web or afb (if you like speed). Yes, thats true, but what relevance does that have? Just because the other AF's can tackle doesnt mean the Amarr Ret has to be able to tackle also. As the poster above you pointed out, if you use it in a team, it slaughters. What that I hear? "But you want to use it solo?" Tough. Its not a very good solo PvP ship, use something else. Or, use it to mission grind. It excels at that. Just because you cant PvP in it, doesnt mean it needs changed. I guess next week we'll be seeing the Hauler pilots complaining about a lack of high slots....
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.16 17:27:00 - [88] Go fly a retri, come back, and you will be saying. Err, yeah i guess it does need to scramble =/ ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.02.16 17:31:00 - [89] Originally by: Spartan III Go fly a retri, come back, and you will be saying. Err, yeah i guess it does need to scramble =/ No, I probably wont, because I always fly in a gang, this being an MMO and all that...
Laythun	Posted - 2006.02.16 18:21:00 - [90] Originally by: Twilight Moon Originally by: Spartan III Go fly a retri, come back, and you will be saying. Err, yeah i guess it does need to scramble =/ No, I probably wont, because I always fly in a gang, this being an MMO and all that... ok ok ok. when did you last fly the ship? how was it? did you fly it round solo around 0.0? did you see all the other SOLO af pilots around? in there shiny wolfs and ishkurs? did you? well i have sonny jim. as i said before if you havnt flown it then dont post. why, because i chose to be amarr should i not be able to enjoy the best amarr af solo? like the rest of the races? explain.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.16 18:22:00 - [91] DPS of some AF's DPS of AF's The Retribution's damage is marginally better at best with 1 damage mod. Even less so when you consider that the Ishkur can choose damage types. The enyo does more, but requires you to be close range and can get there becuase it has enough slots to use an ab + web/scram. The Harpy has less overall DPS, but has a massive range advantage and enough cpu to fit for EW fairly easily making it more versatile. Retribution: Marginally better DPS, ~10 to 15dps if you are in range. If you fit the AB in order to get in range you are useless for anything other than slightly better tanking. Whoopee. Please change 1 high slot to a mid. Would anyone trade a midslot for 15 more dps? I know that I wouldn't. The Gallente AF's are a perfectly designed pair. Each one with a specific role and very good in that role. Both can contribute to gangs or do moderate soloing. Both have good DPS and enough mids to do the job, and the cpu/grid to fit what you need. All AF's should be like the Gallente ones. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.16 18:40:00 - [92] Originally by: Nyxus DPS of some AF's DPS of AF's The Retribution's damage is marginally better at best with 1 damage mod. Even less so when you consider that the Ishkur can choose damage types. The enyo does more, but requires you to be close range and can get there becuase it has enough slots to use an ab + web/scram. The Harpy has less overall DPS, but has a massive range advantage and enough cpu to fit for EW fairly easily making it more versatile. Retribution: Marginally better DPS, ~10 to 15dps if you are in range. If you fit the AB in order to get in range you are useless for anything other than slightly better tanking. Whoopee. Please change 1 high slot to a mid. Would anyone trade a midslot for 15 more dps? I know that I wouldn't. The Gallente AF's are a perfectly designed pair. Each one with a specific role and very good in that role. Both can contribute to gangs or do moderate soloing. Both have good DPS and enough mids to do the job, and the cpu/grid to fit what you need. All AF's should be like the Gallente ones. Nyxus Thanks for that graph and excellent post. This really shows you that the retribution would not be overpowered. The retri does almost no more damage yet everyone else gets more mids which can be used for EW and render the retri useless, and the retri will be unable to fight with EW of its own If the retri doesn't get 2 mids than neither should the other AFs, that way both the "other" AF and the retri would get that choice of warping away in a 1 on 1. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.16 19:23:00 - [93] It seems like its a lot when you add the damage up. 15Dps is 900 Dpm. In 30 seconds thats an extra 450 dmg on top of what you and your COUGH tackler or EW buddy is doing. This is like arguing over sports cars. A corvette is faster in the straightaways while a porsche is faster in the turns. One has a big engine and the other has a small but more efficient engine. They both win races but in different ways. Its not like the corvette is the true race car and we should all drive corvettes to work.
BillyBong2	Posted - 2006.02.16 19:37:00 - [94] Originally by: Spartan III If the retri doesn't get 2 mids than neither should the other AFs, that way both the "other" AF and the retri would get that choice of warping away in a 1 on 1. Sorry, No. Someone will come on here and say cry more. IF you want what you have been talking about, a solo AF tackler, find another race to pilot. This is about choices, plain and simple. I like the way it is and want it left alone. Siggy by Esturary
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.16 19:51:00 - [95] I think the obvious conclusion to draw here is that the Vengeance needs to be made more effective.
Lienzo	Posted - 2006.02.16 19:53:00 - [96] If there was such a thing as a micro remote armor rep the beam retribution would be an even better gang ship. Small remote reps/arrays use too much cap for frigs and have too high fitting reqs.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.16 20:09:00 - [97] Originally by: LWMaverick Man.. your a pain in the ass huh? Here we go: 4 Medium pulses t2 Small dimishing nos Fleeting web(90%) 2 Small t2 armor reps N-type Enegergized thermic(or t2) CPR HS T2 /Mav Wow what a ****ty setup. You'll be racing to your target at a top speed of what, 300m/s with guns that have an optimal of 5km? So is that your role in a gang? By the time you get to your target tech I Rifters would have outdamaged you Why do i bother. _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.16 20:26:00 - [98] armor tanking just using passive modules and armor plating the insane amount of damage resistances would make it take a long time to kill. That'd be like locking up a tanks treads and having the barrel pointed right in your face.
LWMaverick	Posted - 2006.02.16 20:34:00 - [99] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick Man.. your a pain in the ass huh? Here we go: 4 Medium pulses t2 Small dimishing nos Fleeting web(90%) 2 Small t2 armor reps N-type Enegergized thermic(or t2) CPR HS T2 /Mav Wow what a ****ty setup. You'll be racing to your target at a top speed of what, 300m/s with guns that have an optimal of 5km? So is that your role in a gang? By the time you get to your target tech I Rifters would have outdamaged you Why do i bother. Yeah why do you bother?.. Youre just another example of a guy that havent flown the ship he is talking about... now bugger off, my setup is tested and i know it works, how about you flame boy? /Mav With great power, comes great responsibility.
Wizard	Posted - 2006.02.16 20:39:00 - [100] Edited by: Wizard on 16/02/2006 20:40:34 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Kryptic1 Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. If the slots could just be changed from 5/1/5 to 4/2/5 than it could still have the tankability needed for missions so carebears woudn't whine, but it would actually be able to tackle and be able to do solo PvP or at least tackle in gangs. Have you noticed how every race's AFs (except caldari) include one that has few midslots but does more damage and has more tank, and one that has 3 midslots, but doesn't do as much damage or tank as much? Do you know that Amarr has another(!) AF called the Vengeance, which happens to have 3 midslots? Have you ever thought that maybe if you wanted to have a tackling AF, you could use the vengeance? Have you noticed that the Retribution is the only AF with 1 midslot? To make things worse it gets a useless highslot instead of getting a launcher slot like the Wolf, Enyo or Harpy. The Vengeance is a piece of ****, only a nub would say otherwise. Normally aggree with u meridius on your posts but i have to disagree, i love the amarr afs ESPECIALLY the vengeance. ^^cant think of a 1v1 ive lost in my vengeance v any other af/intie from memory, i will however put up no arguement in the debate that the retri needs 1 more mid slot ( take the 5th high away ). If its not solo for you then the retri in small gangs is awesome, medium beam t2 setup rocks for damage.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.16 20:50:00 - [101] Just for kicks.....I added in a Vengeance. OMG the Veng sucks! No Wai! Wow. I knew it blew chunks. I just didn't realize quite exactly how much....... Please note the Ishkur and the Veng. Both are 4/3/3, it's just that the Ishkur does 40 MORE DPS than a Veng and gets a lot more choice on damage types. Oh yea, in this graph it doesnt have any damage mods on either, where the Veng has 1 HSII, which is a completely unrealistic fitting for the Veng. So can anyone explain a situation where I would rather have a Vengeance over an Ishkur? Because I can't think of one. But of course I can't really think of a situation where a Retribution significantly outshines an Enyo either. Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.16 20:54:00 - [102] Thats not very scientific even though you have a graph with nice colored lines. The setups are hardly similar and you used drones on the ishkur too. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
Liare	Posted - 2006.02.16 21:13:00 - [103] Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick Man.. your a pain in the ass huh? Here we go: 4 Medium pulses t2 Small dimishing nos Fleeting web(90%) 2 Small t2 armor reps N-type Enegergized thermic(or t2) CPR HS T2 /Mav Wow what a ****ty setup. You'll be racing to your target at a top speed of what, 300m/s with guns that have an optimal of 5km? So is that your role in a gang? By the time you get to your target tech I Rifters would have outdamaged you Why do i bother. Yeah why do you bother?.. Youre just another example of a guy that havent flown the ship he is talking about... now bugger off, my setup is tested and i know it works, how about you flame boy? /Mav near total lack of mobility ? check short ranged weapons ? check extremely limited tactical flexibility ? check where is the redeeming part of this setup hidden again ? both of the Amarr AF's blows PVP wise, while some people might prefer not to use them for that i fail to understand why the gaping shortcomings should be accepted. the Retribution has good damage and tanking ability to boot, yes but its such a inflexible tool from a tactical point of view (hampered by either a lack of mobility or a lack of mobility denial tools) compared with other AF's. and the Vengance is just flashy to look at, it has better survivability than a T1 frigate, and the ability to mound a jammer along side its typical armaments, big deal since its damage output is limited at best compared to ships it should be able to compete against. suffice to say, i have yet to claim a single AF kill with my Vengance unless it has been more or less "my show", such as very close range on Artillery wolf's and so on. (im running medium pulse's and a standard launcher) my retribution has whooped a enyo more than once who made the rather foolish mistake of attempting to compete with its tanking and damage output in close. but that is more about him thinking he could compete with four medium pulse lasers at close range than the actual ships capabilities, the lack of mobility or ability to keep a hostile in check dooms this vessel if the opposing pilot has half a brain. compare that to the harpy i used to fly, before it met a untimely end, or the Thrashers i toss away it just doesnt make sence to pick a Amarr AF. _____________________________ Ex-Coretech, We still shoot people.
Grut	Posted - 2006.02.16 21:38:00 - [104] Give it an extra mid.... dont bump the cpu & it'll have to drop a dmg mod to fit anything reasonable. WTF is this bring a tackler bs.... 2v1 ofc you'll win 2v2 and your tacklers gonna get owned long before you get into range. I used a retri for abit to see if it was as pants as everyone said, it is. Incase some nubs handnt noticed frig vs frig pvp is FAST you willnot coordinate a tackler/af combo you need to lock whatevers close enough pop it fast which requires a webbie. gl hitting inties passing at 4kms . 's not even good 1v1 a blaster enyo would wipe the floor with it. Just to rub salt in you cant even get a good beam setup to fit Kinsy > deadman you there? Kinsy > are either of us in pods, becase we dont know... Mostly harmless [ 2005.12.09 19:22:50 ] (notify) You have started trying to warp scramble the Dreadnought
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.16 21:39:00 - [105] Edited by: Nyxus on 16/02/2006 21:42:11 Originally by: Livia Tarquina Thats not very scientific even though you have a graph with nice colored lines. The setups are hardly similar and you used drones on the ishkur too. There are no setups other than the weapons (T2 for main weapons, t1 for secondary to try to keep it realistic) and the damage mods. I only used the number of damage mods that are normally feasible to fit on an AF setup, 1 for most of the AF's. I even put 1 on the Vengeance even though it HIGHLY unlikely someone would mount a damage mod on that ship. Please note the Ishkur didn't get any damage mods at all. If you have different weapons you would like to see I will be happy to post them. Ironically, if you put t2 weapons on the secondaries of the Harpy, Enyo, etc it will only further marginalize the damage difference between them and the Retribution. I have 125 II's on the Ishkur, if you want me to put Neut II's on it I will. Retribution needs 1 high swapped to a mid. Vengeace needs....something to make it as useful as an Ishkur. EDIT: The Ishkur has drones in the DPS figure because it has a dronebay. 15m3 4tw baby! Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Liare	Posted - 2006.02.16 21:41:00 - [106] Originally by: Nyxus Originally by: Livia Tarquina Thats not very scientific even though you have a graph with nice colored lines. The setups are hardly similar and you used drones on the ishkur too. There are no setups other than the weapons (T2 for main weapons, t1 for secondary to try to keep it realistic) and the damage mods. I only used the number of damage mods that are normally feasible to fit on an AF setup, 1 for most of the AF's. I even put 1 on the Vengeance even though it HIGHLY unlikely someone would mount a damage mod on that ship. Please note the Ishkur didn't get any damage mods at all. If you have different weapons you would like to see I will be happy to post them. Ironically, if you put t2 weapons on the secondaries of the Harpy, Enyo, etc it will only further marginalize the damage difference between them and the Retribution. I have 125 II's on the Ishkur, if you want me to put Neut II's on it I will. Retribution needs 1 high swapped to a mid. Vengeace needs....something to make it as useful as an Ishkur. enough PG to make it a viable ship with a rack of medium beams and a standard launcher putting it in the "long" range amarr slot perhaps ? (or say, a specific bonus for medium beam lasers or something) _____________________________ Ex-Coretech, We still shoot people.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.16 21:56:00 - [107] Nyxus>Uh oh, I made a mistake! Unwashed Masses> o rly! Nyxus>Yep, I put cruiser lasers on the veng in the last comparison. Ironically, when I corrected it the Veng DPS actually went down a little bit. AF DPS - Veng still sucks Just for fun I put Beams and a standard launcher on the Veng to see if that would help. Beam Veng DPS Nope. Veng still sucks, and can't hold a candle to the Harpy's range. Was worth trying though. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.16 22:15:00 - [108] Originally by: Wizard Normally aggree with u meridius on your posts but i have to disagree, i love the amarr afs ESPECIALLY the vengeance. ^^cant think of a 1v1 ive lost in my vengeance v any other af/intie from memory, i will however put up no arguement in the debate that the retri needs 1 more mid slot ( take the 5th high away ). Why would you want to use a Vengeance when you can use an Ishkur, do way more damage, pick your damage types and do damage from Harpy like ranges. Originally by: Nyxus OMG the Veng sucks! No Wai! Check that _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.16 22:17:00 - [109] Originally by: Liare Originally by: LWMaverick Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick Man.. your a pain in the ass huh? Here we go: 4 Medium pulses t2 Small dimishing nos Fleeting web(90%) 2 Small t2 armor reps N-type Enegergized thermic(or t2) CPR HS T2 /Mav Wow what a ****ty setup. You'll be racing to your target at a top speed of what, 300m/s with guns that have an optimal of 5km? So is that your role in a gang? By the time you get to your target tech I Rifters would have outdamaged you Why do i bother. Yeah why do you bother?.. Youre just another example of a guy that havent flown the ship he is talking about... now bugger off, my setup is tested and i know it works, how about you flame boy? /Mav near total lack of mobility ? check short ranged weapons ? check extremely limited tactical flexibility ? check where is the redeeming part of this setup hidden again ? Quoted for saving me the time _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.02.16 22:33:00 - [110] Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 16/02/2006 22:41:20 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: Kryptic1 Originally by: Spartan III The retribution can't tackle period. If the slots could just be changed from 5/1/5 to 4/2/5 than it could still have the tankability needed for missions so carebears woudn't whine, but it would actually be able to tackle and be able to do solo PvP or at least tackle in gangs. Have you noticed how every race's AFs (except caldari) include one that has few midslots but does more damage and has more tank, and one that has 3 midslots, but doesn't do as much damage or tank as much? Do you know that Amarr has another(!) AF called the Vengeance, which happens to have 3 midslots? Have you ever thought that maybe if you wanted to have a tackling AF, you could use the vengeance? Have you noticed that the Retribution is the only AF with 1 midslot? To make things worse it gets a useless highslot instead of getting a launcher slot like the Wolf, Enyo or Harpy. The Vengeance is a piece of ****, only a nub would say otherwise. Yeah man, UTILITY high slots are so worthless. I wonder why they're called... UTILITY?! Retri is fine as is, if it had 2 mids it would be imbalanced. AFs are for two things: Tanking and Shooting, if you want to tackle, get a friend who flys an Inty. Or a frigate. Or that has a brain. Also it would be very dissappointing to see the Retri become just like every other AF..
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.16 22:47:00 - [111] Methinks the people here are having buyer's remorse at spending 20 mill ISK on a ship. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
HippoKing	Posted - 2006.02.16 23:12:00 - [112] it is not a solo PvP ship, and turning a high to a mid would over power it drastically. IMO, it shouldn't be changed, and stay as the ultimate gang AF, but if it gets changed, a low should become a mid, not a high sigs of the 23/24/25 hijack just as well -eris yarrrr, i shall retake my sig -HippoKing Not a chance, our 1337 sig haXx0r sk1llz are too powerful! - Wrangler Ho-Ho-Hooooooo, Merry Saturday!11 - Immy Yo ho ho and a bottle of BReeEEEEeee.... - Jacques ARRRRRRchambault
tenp1	Posted - 2006.02.17 00:22:00 - [113] Edited by: tenp1 on 17/02/2006 00:22:35 How would moving the utility high to a mid make it overpowered? Plenty of people have been saying it but none have been explaining why. Like I said previously, I can only assume that they assume extra mid with extra cpu, which would not need to be the case, so not overpowered in any way. So again I repeat how does the extra mid make it overpowered, if it has to reduce tank or damage or both to be able to use it? . A simple explanation is all it takes, claims without facts is not good enough. On this setup, the ret would be short range, slow and about 7 cpu short 163 cpu needed, 156 available (hence the cpu II). 4xMedium Pulse II 1xFaint scram, 1xFleeting Web 1x S. rep II, Energised Thermic II, CPU II, HS II, nano or refuge adapive nano plate. If you want longer range you would need to use dual light beam and sufer a further damage reduction. Again I don't see the problem.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.17 00:24:00 - [114] Originally by: HippoKing IMO, it shouldn't be changed, and stay as the ultimate gang AF I'm sorry, can someone explain how 20 more dps over the competition makes it the 'ultimate' gang AF? Sounds like bull**** to me. Give it another turret so it leads the DPS race by a significant value. _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.02.17 00:27:00 - [115] Edited by: OrangeAfroMan on 17/02/2006 00:29:52 Perhaps its tanking ability or the ability to use that utility high to run a remote repper? While keeping such great dps.. Malka Badi'a = My idol, listen to her.
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.17 01:10:00 - [116] Retribution will probably fight close anyways, so that utility -> nosferatu for draining and maintaining even more capacitor. Secondly the T2 laser crystals catapult it into extreme damage ranges, and having one damage mod on a retribution isn't exactly the brightest thing in the world. To fly a retribution effectively you need a proper setup, and that setup will of course include a propulsion mod in the one medium slot. Just because you can't do everything you want in it, doesn't mean it should be changed! And before you comment yes I fly retributions, and yes I have plenty of experience with them. The vengeance on the other hand is pretty crap except for one or two overly awkard setups.
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.17 01:17:00 - [117] 20 dmg per second means 600 damage in 30 seconds and 1200 in a minute. Spike damage is good in a ganking situation but DOT builds up in a gang on gang situation. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.17 01:23:00 - [118] Originally by: Aeaus Retribution will probably fight close anyways, so that utility -> nosferatu for draining and maintaining even more capacitor. Secondly the T2 laser crystals catapult it into extreme damage ranges, and having one damage mod on a retribution isn't exactly the brightest thing in the world. To fly a retribution effectively you need a proper setup, and that setup will of course include a propulsion mod in the one medium slot. err no the retribution having only 1 mid slot will not be able to fight close because the enemy will dominate the range since it can fit an AB, Web+ more depending on its mids. The retribution will have to fit a disruptor to hold its opponent and will be unable to get within range without an AB. If it equips and AB instead than the enemy pilot could just equip an AB and web, still dominating the range.... ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Antic	Posted - 2006.02.17 02:00:00 - [119] if you want to have a tank on a harpy in PVP you dont get a scrambler either. Usual setups include a webber instead.
Meridius	Posted - 2006.02.17 02:03:00 - [120] Originally by: Livia Tarquina 20 dmg per second means 600 damage in 30 seconds and 1200 in a minute. Spike damage is good in a ganking situation but DOT builds up in a gang on gang situation. That means **** all when you consider the Retri can't contribute towards webbing or scrambling in a gang. I would rather have another scrambler in my gang then a pathetic 20+DPS Retri. _ __ WE get EVERRYYWHHHEERREEEE!!1 - Imaran
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.17 02:09:00 - [121] Bring a tackler. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.17 02:27:00 - [122] Originally by: Antic if you want to have a tank on a harpy in PVP you dont get a scrambler either. Usual setups include a webber instead. WRONG, usual setups include an AB, Scramble, shield booster, and either webber or hardener. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.17 02:33:00 - [123] Originally by: Spartan III Originally by: Aeaus Retribution will probably fight close anyways, so that utility -> nosferatu for draining and maintaining even more capacitor. Secondly the T2 laser crystals catapult it into extreme damage ranges, and having one damage mod on a retribution isn't exactly the brightest thing in the world. To fly a retribution effectively you need a proper setup, and that setup will of course include a propulsion mod in the one medium slot. err no the retribution having only 1 mid slot will not be able to fight close because the enemy will dominate the range since it can fit an AB, Web+ more depending on its mids. The retribution will have to fit a disruptor to hold its opponent and will be unable to get within range without an AB. If it equips and AB instead than the enemy pilot could just equip an AB and web, still dominating the range.... Have you ever thought of bringing friends? Oh that's right, you don't have any... ((You will realize this is not a problem since most of the time you will be picking on larger ships and not other assault frigites. But then again if you fly with a gang this will hardly matter. Also, your ideas on PvP are rather flawed, sure bring every counter, but you'll just be setting yourself up for failure.))
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.17 02:37:00 - [124] You cannot counter everything. You must have strengths and utilize those strengths to your advance instead of trying to do everything, and end up doing horribly.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.17 02:37:00 - [125] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Spartan III Originally by: Aeaus Retribution will probably fight close anyways, so that utility -> nosferatu for draining and maintaining even more capacitor. Secondly the T2 laser crystals catapult it into extreme damage ranges, and having one damage mod on a retribution isn't exactly the brightest thing in the world. To fly a retribution effectively you need a proper setup, and that setup will of course include a propulsion mod in the one medium slot. err no the retribution having only 1 mid slot will not be able to fight close because the enemy will dominate the range since it can fit an AB, Web+ more depending on its mids. The retribution will have to fit a disruptor to hold its opponent and will be unable to get within range without an AB. If it equips and AB instead than the enemy pilot could just equip an AB and web, still dominating the range.... Have you ever thought of bringing friends? Oh that's right, you don't have any... ((You will realize this is not a problem since most of the time you will be picking on larger ships and not other assault frigites. But then again if you fly with a gang this will hardly matter. Also, your ideas on PvP are rather flawed, sure bring every counter, but you'll just be setting yourself up for failure.)) Bringing counters to the game is what PvP is at its simplest. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Foulis	Posted - 2006.02.17 02:45:00 - [126] Lets take a look at the gallente and minmatar AFs. Gallente: 1 ship, 5/2/4 layout, 1 ship, 3/3/3 layout. Minmatar: 1 ship, 5/2/4 layout, 1 ship, 3/3/3 layout. Amarr at least get some originality in their slot layouts. You have a unique ship that is suited to a specific role. ---- I like pie. Cake > Pie - Imaran
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.17 03:06:00 - [127] This argument is similar to one on one of the guild wars elite fan forums. This one poster complained how he couldn't counter everything in the game and how pvp was a joke because he could win a whole bunch of matches only to be beat by a group designed to counter his build perfectly. Many pvpers whined to get more than 8 slots for skills saying it wouldn't unbalance the game while many more players said adding more slots would let people counter everything. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.17 05:05:00 - [128] There should always be a counter to everything. Thats how a game is balanced. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.17 05:06:00 - [129] Originally by: Spartan III There should always be a counter to everything. Thats how a game is balanced. There almost is, but not on one ship =/ Frankly I'm thinking you're way too thickheaded to get it by now =/
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.17 05:22:00 - [130] Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Spartan III There should always be a counter to everything. Thats how a game is balanced. There almost is, but not on one ship =/ Frankly I'm thinking you're way too thickheaded to get it by now =/ Of course not all on one ship. There would be no counter to it. AFs though were not designed to be gang ships, they were designed to be solo strike craft. The retribution is the only AF or frigate that cannot properly hold down an opponent. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Sergi	Posted - 2006.02.17 06:59:00 - [131] Kills: 292 Losses: 4 Final blows: 109 Ship of choice: Retribution (89)
Sergi	Posted - 2006.02.17 07:02:00 - [132] problem is not in retribution, problem is in YOU. You should be changed to fly it properly, or you should change the ship to the one that matches your style, such as 3-slot af to put a web, scram, mwd or whatever in.
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.17 07:11:00 - [133] True, but it doesn't matter if we say that. To him there is only one way to play. The retribution can't be played this way so it's broken. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.02.17 07:32:00 - [134] Originally by: Livia Tarquina True, but it doesn't matter if we say that. To him there is only one way to play. The retribution can't be played this way so it's broken. QFT Malka Badi'a = My idol, listen to her.
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2006.02.17 07:49:00 - [135] I want to fight more Harpies like Spartan's. You run into a Claw that you can't -90% web, you're dead meat. In all seriousness, Assault Frigates are point defense ships. They are anti-tacklers, not tacklers themselves. What do you think you get those multiple range/falloff bonii for? So you can fly close towards your enemies at high speed, and tackle them? Wrong. Its so you can escort friendlies and pop any incoming tacklers from 20km away. They are 'death from afar' and fill a support role perfectly. If you want to tackle get an Interceptor.. problem solved. .___. {-,-} /)__) -"-"- Inactive as of 11-02-06. Still Whorum Foring though.
tenp1	Posted - 2006.02.17 11:17:00 - [136] While I agree that an extra mid would make the ret similar to the other high damage assaults (it would need a cpu mod where thay need a pg one) I still want to know what will make a 4/2/5 ret overpowered compared to my enyo wolf and harpy. Would it be too good as a pve ship, is that it? AB, web, good damage and no ammo versus NPC, though wouldn't that apply to my crusader as well? Could it be that it could run a better tank with an extra cap recharger in the mid, tho wouldn't the nos do the same? Ok maybe it's the damage out put, still got 5 lows so it must be a tracking mod in the mid, but doesn't that cause cpu probs again? So what do we have, it can't do what it does with 1 mid slot plus tackle without a reduction in tank, ew or damage, is there somthing i'm missing here? Nope still can't see it, or was it just one of those things that is said to try and win an arguement because it sounded good?
Liare	Posted - 2006.02.17 11:32:00 - [137] Originally by: Sergi Kills: 292 Losses: 4 Final blows: 109 Ship of choice: Retribution (89) ooh, numbers, yet they fail to show how the ship was employed, or what it carried. eerm... its a real pity both the Amarr AF's blows so bad, when you consider their interceptors are so damn deadly. _____________________________ Ex-Coretech, We still shoot people.
FraXy	Posted - 2006.02.17 11:59:00 - [138] Originally by: Meridius Originally by: LWMaverick Man.. your a pain in the ass huh? Here we go: 4 Medium pulses t2 Small dimishing nos Fleeting web(90%) 2 Small t2 armor reps N-type Enegergized thermic(or t2) CPR HS T2 /Mav Wow what a ****ty setup. You'll be racing to your target at a top speed of what, 300m/s with guns that have an optimal of 5km? So is that your role in a gang? By the time you get to your target tech I Rifters would have outdamaged you Why do i bother. Have u heard about Scorch crystals? I get 17km range with Scorch and Medium Pulse II. This ship is not for solo pvp, it can be used for it, but personally i wouldn`t recommend it. This little beast rocks in a gang, u know, the ones were there actually is other people fighting alongside u having fun. Sure it can`t tackle, but it`s a ship that can do mean damage and can stay in the engagement even if getting attacked. I don`t have AF 5 or Sharpshooter 5, but if or when i train them could easily get 20km optimal. And that u have to race to a target, with 17-20km optimal shooting 11 dmg crystal is painfull and if a ceptor tries to get within tackle range he`s in a pod before he can activate scrambler. It`s a ship with a specific role which i consider either anti-tackler or DPS-ship. And LWMaverick`s setup is a nice one, not sure if he can sustain all that for long, but 1 repper and 4 guns is sustainable just by pure skills, so maybe the CPR and Nos can sustain the second repper. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.17 12:17:00 - [139] Originally by: Spartan III Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Spartan III There should always be a counter to everything. Thats how a game is balanced. There almost is, but not on one ship =/ Frankly I'm thinking you're way too thickheaded to get it by now =/ Of course not all on one ship. There would be no counter to it. AFs though were not designed to be gang ships, they were designed to be solo strike craft. The retribution is the only AF or frigate that cannot properly hold down an opponent. The Retribution was not designed to be a solo strike craft. That should be obvious from the slot layout...
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.02.17 12:31:00 - [140] Originally by: Spartan III Originally by: Aeaus Originally by: Spartan III There should always be a counter to everything. Thats how a game is balanced. There almost is, but not on one ship =/ Frankly I'm thinking you're way too thickheaded to get it by now =/ Of course not all on one ship. There would be no counter to it. AFs though were not designed to be gang ships, they were designed to be solo strike craft. The retribution is the only AF or frigate that cannot properly hold down an opponent. IMHO, in a Massively Multiplayer game, you won't find a single item, be it a ship, a module or whatever, that was designed for solo play. The DEVs are designing a multiplayer game, not a single-player game that a lot of people play each in their corner.
Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.02.17 12:42:00 - [141] The retribution is a superb AF for both pvp and pve. The problem with the OP is that you want a ship thats able to do somthing. Instead of looking for the most suitable ship to do it, you find a ship you like and want it changed to suit your needs. What the retribution lacks in mid slots it makes up for in the ability to set it for a hell of alot of damage or a pretty respectable tank, or even somthing in between. To be really honest the vengeance is the only real AF thats needs some loving (and really little more than a better set of bonuses). The retribution just requires you to use your head and use it for the purpose it's been designed for: heavy fire support for a small mobile group.
TheSoul	Posted - 2006.02.17 13:11:00 - [142] retris dps is not enough to negate the lack of an extra mid slot, the blaster enyo can not only outperform the retri in a gang heavy hitter role, it can also tackle at the same time. I would like to see the retri get a huge speed boost, and keep its layout :>
Wild Rho	Posted - 2006.02.17 13:14:00 - [143] Difference is a retri can do heavy damage out to as far as 30kms. The enyo does high damage right up close.
Exogene	Posted - 2006.02.17 13:58:00 - [144] I have tried to setup retribution for pure tanking (this is in relation to an earlier post about 2 repairs). The only way retribution can support 2 repairs 24/7 is 3 CPR and a cap recharger in the midslot (and this without the turrets running mind you). With this setup u'll wobble back and forth between 20-30 % cap. Add to this, the repair skill, which decreases time to repair, meaning your cap will be drained faster, it's not viable, and imo just a waste of a low slot to use 2 repairs. (note: this is with energy systems operation lvl5 and energy management lvl4) Sure you can repair a lot of damage, but your cap will suffer immesely especially if u decide to fit anything other than CPRs. As for Retribution slots being at the wrong places, i agree. The rather frequently recommended web setup is good but not sufficient imo (i.e. what's the point in a webifier if u can't get in range to use it). So far i can't say i like the retribution much besides missions/ratting but that might as well be my inexperience. Should it be changed? Well something has to be changed, whether it's more cap or an extra midslot, i'll leave that to the pros at CCP but i am definately disappointed in the retribution so far.
Celador Nane	Posted - 2006.02.17 13:59:00 - [145] I totally agree, ret and the veng do suck, , but hey, ive almost trained gallente frig 5......
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.17 14:49:00 - [146] Let's look at the ships with an eye to fit them similarly. Since the Vengeance has 3 low slots, let's see what happens when fill all the "extra" lows of the AF's with damage mods and leave them all 3 slots to tank. In this situation the Retri should have the greatest advantage since it, like the Harpy can fit 2 damage mods while the Enyo can only fit one and the Ishkur/Vengeance fit none. The sad truth about AF's All ships have 3 lows left to tank with. There is minimal, if any, advantage for the Retribution tank-wise. The Enyo and the Retri have tied for damage output, with the Retri getting about 5 to 6km more range worth of max dps before having to change crystals. The Ishkur with no damage mods is only 10dps a second behind the Retri and Enyo, still has 3 lows to fit a tank, more CPU than the Retri and 2 more mid slots. Oh yea, it has a utility slot to fit a small nos as well. Can you see that the Retribution not only lacks flexibility, it is only minimally better tankwise, and it's "supposed DPS advantage" is completely marginal at best? Can you use it? Yes. Is it outclassed in many ways by other AF's? Absolutely. Facts About the Amarr AF's The Retribution has a marginal DPS advantage, despite using more damage mods. It gains only 5 to 6km worth of max dps advantage over the Enyo/Ishkur. The Retribution when set to do similar damage to other AF's does not have significantly greater tanking ability (all ships using 3 slots to tank). Despite having no significant advantage or niche the Retri has a SEVERELY penalized pvp utilization because it only has 1 mid. The Vengeance still sucks so much it's laughable. Those are facts supported by data. I have heard a lot of conjecture about 2 mids overpowering the Retri, but I have yet to see anyone show how. At best, moving a high slot to a mid would put the Retri on par with the Enyo, at worst it would still make the Retri slightly behind the Ishkur in total usefulness. The reason few people use the Amarr AF's and Inties is becuase where they should excel, DPS and tanking, they quite simply don't. Lack of versatility with no compensating reason 4TL. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Jaketh Ivanes	Posted - 2006.02.17 15:24:00 - [147] Its really simple.... If you don't like it, don't fly it. Why do you want to have a slot moved, when you can just fly an Enyo? Wich seems to much better than the Retribution, according to some. So, stop whining about the Retribution, when it doens't fit your purpose, and get another ship that does. Retribution is fine and balanced. And yes, it kills fast. I soloed a Hawk with Gisti shield booster, an the pilot was not an unexperienced noob either.
Aramark	Posted - 2006.02.17 15:52:00 - [148] i PVP in mine all the time. it is a great ship. as long as the other ships doens't have nos you are golden. took out 3 punisher and a moa in one fight. how is that bad?
BillyBong2	Posted - 2006.02.17 19:30:00 - [149] Nyxus, I am not trying to be difficult here. However, can you please explain to me, I fly only Amarr, how the Ishkur is only 10 dps behind the retribution when it is 1 gun less? Are you saying that to be a good tank, everything being equal? I am just a little confused is all, not doubting your number just would like a clafication. My setup is as follows: 4xMedium Pulse II ABII MAR II, 2xHS II, Cap Relay, Thermal passive Hardener. Now, that is PvE and I drop the Cap relay and add a third HS for gang support. I get a RoF under 2 second and yes with multis, my optimal is 4150 meters. Again, no disrespect, just curious. Siggy by Esturary
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.17 20:11:00 - [150] Edited by: Joerd Toastius on 17/02/2006 20:14:02 Originally by: Nyxus The Retribution when set to do similar damage to other AF's does not have significantly greater tanking ability (all ships using 3 slots to tank). If you restrict yourself to three slots for tanking with, yes. But why the hell would you do that? You've got five low slots - one more than any other AF - and that's where your tank goes. Yes, you could fit two HS2s, but that gimps your tank, because not only is it using an extra low but you don't have the CPU to fit any kind of med slot item (if you're going for an uber tank it has to be an AB2, really), an SAR2 and the all-important hardner. If you're talking about tankability, use a good tank. This means AB2, SAR2, at least one hardner (which is generally either a thermal II of some kind or an adaptive II depending on your mood and inclinations) and a pair of CPRs. That gives you the ability to tank indefinitely. I've held off three inties for two minutes with a Thermic I setup, which is pretty reasonable performance IMO. Then you use your FIFTH low for either more tank stuff (say an energised II) or if you want to gank an HS2, and populate your highs with Med Pulse IIs which do pretty nasty amounts of damage. That basic setup, with variation in choice of mids and hardners, is pretty much what most Retri pilots on this board seem to use. I don't know anyone who uses two damage mods, and I can't think anyone would be dumb enough to do so and then complain about its "weak tank" {edit} So yes, if you gimp the Retri's tank, it's got a poor tank. What's your point?
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.17 20:42:00 - [151] I don't think the ships are being penalized for PVP its the players that penalize themselves for PvP "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.17 21:16:00 - [152] Originally by: BillyBong2 I am not trying to be difficult here. However, can you please explain to me, I fly only Amarr, how the Ishkur is only 10 dps behind the retribution when it is 1 gun less? Answer: Drones. T2 drones with skills put out an ungodly amount of damage. It's what makes the Ishtar so deadly and it's little brother, the Ishkur, frightening. Because 90% of frigate battles happen at below 18 km it allows the Ishkur to fully utilize it's drones in most combat situations. It also allows for variety in damage types. I wasn't a big drone fan till I started flying the Pilgrim. With the skills trained up I was....pleasantly suprised. Now as to why I chose the weapons I chose: Quite simply, I tried to get an "apples to apples" comparison between the AF's. Weapons up high, 3 lows to tank, the rest heatsinks. This was merely to attempt to give an unbiased base comparison between the AFs. If you would like me to change the setups (weapons, damage mods, etc) please list them and I will be happy to run the numbers and post the results. Personally I have set the AF's every single which way can think of, and I can not find a setup where the Retribution significantly outshines the competition. As many people who can fly different races AF's have said, yes the Retribution is ok. But it's not significantly better than Gallente/Caldari/Matari to overcome the hampering effect of 1 mid slot. To those who fly the Retri and oppose a high->mid swap could you explain your reasons why? Preferably with numbers since the Retri would have to make some extremely difficult fitting choices due to it's cpu constraints? Honestly I would not even be opposed to moving a low to a mid, although I think for variety's sake it should be a high to a mid. And yes, I could just fly an Ishkur or Harpy since they pwn the Vengeance in every situation. But I would rather make the Vengeance worth using rather than have everyone flying just a few types of AF's. All ships should be good, with certain ships being specialized for certain tasks. This is opposed to having a couple of ships good for everything, and a bunch of ships that are not or less so. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.17 21:36:00 - [153] "Apples to Apples" ought really to be "common PvP setup to common PvP setup". I'm of the opinion that in gangs where you have others scrambling the mid count is not a problem and at that point while not necessarily "significantly" better is is pretty much the best AF out there - it can tank hard and still put out a lot of damage, particularly with T2 ammo against larger ships. If you let it do that solo, it'd be if not overpowered then probably at least the de facto best choice. I'm not saying it's balanced now, I'm just worried that a second mid, with the CPU to use it, would push it too far. Even without the CPU you'd just have to drop the HS2 if you wanted a web or a scram, which you could replace with another CPR for example. I'd really hate to lose a low for a mid though, that's just getting generic. Either way, I think the best solution to this dilemma is just to make the Vengeance do what people want the Retri to do, ie be a reasonably generic tackle-friendly AF. The Retri as it is atm is a unique and characterful ship, and frankly pushing it into line with the other AFs would be a huge waste :(
BillyBong2	Posted - 2006.02.17 22:02:00 - [154] Ok, how about my PvP setup. 4xMedium Pulse II Using Multis, just T1... 3 HS II I use this for Gang Support, used it the other night and got a few kill mails. Don't take my skills into account because, well I have a lot Thanks, and I thought the DPS would come from the drones. I think I might work on getting a Vengence to be Vampiric/Tackler and see what i can come up with. Thanks again Nyxus. Siggy by Esturary
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.17 22:10:00 - [155] Do you people fail to realize just how much 15-20 dps increase is in a frigate battle? As someone pointed out, thats 450 more damage in a 30 second fight. Thats alot when your talking frigates. Now add in the fact you can run a small armor rep II, and a thermal hardener 4ever. You see why the retribution is teh sex.
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.17 22:14:00 - [156] People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy.
Tas Devil	Posted - 2006.02.17 23:07:00 - [157] The retribution is fine as it is ...even to PVP ... modify it and it will become the absolute best AF... I like to fly ships that offer a challenge...not the win all button ...and the retribution is incredibly strong yet offers a challenge to the lone hunter. The best Laught ever ... Credit goes to TheKiller8 for this :)
Azeroth Uluntil	Posted - 2006.02.17 23:08:00 - [158] Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Agreed. Think I've got 18km optimal with radios... The retribution is a very nice ship that can pretty much take down any other af that doesn't target jam it, when set it up properly. Inties are basically no threat unless they have a beyond 20km warp scrambler and anything that gets in under 10km is toast due to UV/Multifrequency crystals. Also from my experience most assault frigs that decide to engage get blown up before they realize they are in trouble, and thus, no need for a scrambler. As ccp has stated time and time again, there is no need for a solopwnmobile of each class, but the retribution is quite close. Granted, that 5th high slot is hard to fit(requires alot of level 5 skills), but it is indeed *****ble with a useful mod that can help in frig gangs. Quit whining about how it needs to be changed. It's good enough as is.
Tas Devil	Posted - 2006.02.17 23:10:00 - [159] Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Agreed. Think I've got 18km optimal with radios... The retribution is a very nice ship that can pretty much take down any other af that doesn't target jam it, when set it up properly. Inties are basically no threat unless they have a beyond 20km warp scrambler and anything that gets in under 10km is toast due to UV/Multifrequency crystals. Also from my experience most assault frigs that decide to engage get blown up before they realize they are in trouble, and thus, no need for a scrambler. As ccp has stated time and time again, there is no need for a solopwnmobile of each class, but the retribution is quite close. Granted, that 5th high slot is hard to fit(requires alot of level 5 skills), but it is indeed *****ble with a useful mod that can help in frig gangs. Quit whining about how it needs to be changed. It's good enough as is. Your eloquence, Sir, surpased mine in praising this fine ship :) The best Laught ever ... Credit goes to TheKiller8 for this :)
GigaIndy	Posted - 2006.02.18 11:19:00 - [160] Originally by: Tas Devil Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Agreed. Think I've got 18km optimal with radios... The retribution is a very nice ship that can pretty much take down any other af that doesn't target jam it, when set it up properly. Inties are basically no threat unless they have a beyond 20km warp scrambler and anything that gets in under 10km is toast due to UV/Multifrequency crystals. Also from my experience most assault frigs that decide to engage get blown up before they realize they are in trouble, and thus, no need for a scrambler. As ccp has stated time and time again, there is no need for a solopwnmobile of each class, but the retribution is quite close. Granted, that 5th high slot is hard to fit(requires alot of level 5 skills), but it is indeed *****ble with a useful mod that can help in frig gangs. Quit whining about how it needs to be changed. It's good enough as is. Your eloquence, Sir, surpased mine in praising this fine ship :) Go TEAM!!!!!!!!
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.18 14:03:00 - [161] Originally by: GigaIndy Originally by: Tas Devil Originally by: Azeroth Uluntil Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Agreed. Think I've got 18km optimal with radios... The retribution is a very nice ship that can pretty much take down any other af that doesn't target jam it, when set it up properly. Inties are basically no threat unless they have a beyond 20km warp scrambler and anything that gets in under 10km is toast due to UV/Multifrequency crystals. Also from my experience most assault frigs that decide to engage get blown up before they realize they are in trouble, and thus, no need for a scrambler. As ccp has stated time and time again, there is no need for a solopwnmobile of each class, but the retribution is quite close. Granted, that 5th high slot is hard to fit(requires alot of level 5 skills), but it is indeed ***ble with a useful mod that can help in frig gangs. Quit whining about how it needs to be changed. It's good enough as is. Your eloquence, Sir, surpased mine in praising this fine ship :) Go TEAM!!!!!!!! Noobs ****************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Kery Nysell	Posted - 2006.02.18 14:21:00 - [162] Originally by: Spartan III Noobs What a nice and constructive reply. Very good. Name calling won't get you anything.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.18 14:38:00 - [163] Originally by: Kery Nysell Originally by: Spartan III Noobs What a nice and constructive reply. Very good. Name calling won't get you anything. I'm serious, they say all this stuff that they can't prove, give no hard evidence, and than say everyone else needs to get over it because they think its ok as it is. The provide no numbers, and are obviously just guessing about stuff. Gets irritating when those of us who want the changes can and do provide evidence... ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Shin Ra	Posted - 2006.02.18 15:11:00 - [164] The retribution would be stupidly powerful if it had 2 midslots. Why would anyone fly anything else when a retribution would outmatch all the rest.
Twilight Moon	Posted - 2006.02.18 15:12:00 - [165] Originally by: Spartan III Originally by: Kery Nysell Originally by: Spartan III Noobs What a nice and constructive reply. Very good. Name calling won't get you anything. I'm serious, they say all this stuff that they can't prove, give no hard evidence, and than say everyone else needs to get over it because they think its ok as it is. The provide no numbers, and are obviously just guessing about stuff. Gets irritating when those of us who want the changes can and do provide evidence... They fly the ship! What use are numbers in comparison to actually taking the ship out yourself and getting a good feel for it?
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.18 15:18:00 - [166] Originally by: BillyBong2 Ok, how about my PvP setup. 4xMedium Pulse II Using Multis, just T1... 3 HS II I use this for Gang Support, used it the other night and got a few kill mails. Don't take my skills into account because, well I have a lot Thanks, and I thought the DPS would come from the drones. I think I might work on getting a Vengence to be Vampiric/Tackler and see what i can come up with. Thanks again Nyxus. No problem mate! AF's in Gank Mode Yarrrrrrr! This was an interesting one. What happens when you set all the af's into "Ultra gank mode". The answer was very suprising to me. In fact, I may start setting my harpy up this way for small frigate gangs where we need more damage output. As someone else pointed out to me, Nuets are hard to fit on the Enyo and Ishkur, so I dropped down to Ions and Electrons respectively. Interestingly enough, unlike thier medium and large brethren, the damage difference between Neut/Ion/Elec is rather small. The DPS variance in full gank mode between the AF's was around 10 DPS, with the greatest difference between the Ishkur and the Harpy at about 18 or so. The Vengeance still sucks. I love the idea of Khanid ships, I just wish they didn't hit like a 2 year old child throwing a tantrum. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Nyxus	Posted - 2006.02.18 15:30:00 - [167] Originally by: GigaIndy People comparing Ret to enyo are missing one huge point. With Radios my optimal is 16-17k? 12k with standards 6k with multifreq. Show me blasters with those ranges. Add in the fact retribution can out tank every single frigate in the game, and you've got your self a sexy toy. Look closely at the 18-20km range. AF dps - Veng still sucks. at 18km with Radios the Retri damage output is roughtly the same as both the Harpy and the Ishkur. It's only better than the Vengeance (becuase it blows) and the Enyo because it is out of range. But remember that it doesnt take long for an ABing enyo to get in blaster range. It's also important to remember that 1 vs 1's don't mean a ship is balanced for group (MMO) play. No Battleship can take a Scorp down 1 vs 1, but it hardly means that it's the best battleship. Nyxus Macgyver can build an airplane out of gum and paper clips, but Chuck Norris can kill him and take it.
Shadow Mancer	Posted - 2006.02.18 16:15:00 - [168] I been reading heaps of people saying Retribution deals crazy damages ect ect, but hey guys did you notice that it takes 4ever to kill a wolf .. retribution in my experience has never managed a wolf b4. 9/10 times i kill a retribution - only 1 time i had to warp away cose both of us agredd in local that this fight will take 4ever cose a retribution couldn't go pass my 50% armor with my small rep running 23/7 CEO and Founder of Warriors of Gods
MacDune	Posted - 2006.02.18 16:35:00 - [169] Originally by: Shadow Mancer I been reading heaps of people saying Retribution deals crazy damages ect ect, but hey guys did you notice that it takes 4ever to kill a wolf .. retribution in my experience has never managed a wolf b4. 9/10 times i kill a retribution - only 1 time i had to warp away cose both of us agredd in local that this fight will take 4ever cose a retribution couldn't go pass my 50% armor with my small rep running 23/7 omg......we're doooooomed.......!!!!! Hell, did you ever noticed the resistances of minmatar-T2-ships against their rp-enemies??
Kyozoku	Posted - 2006.02.18 16:40:00 - [170] Please fix spartan so he can stop whining.
tenp1	Posted - 2006.02.18 18:32:00 - [171] Originally by: Livia Tarquina I don't think the ships are being penalized for PVP its the players that penalize themselves for PvP That is true in so many ways
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.18 19:28:00 - [172] First of all, unlike the other ships you compared, there is much more varience... Tank Can fit lower end T2 lasers, some nosferatu, and a mad tank in the low slots easily. Still does nice damage while taking a lot of damage. Gank Can fit the best T2 lasers, plenty of heat sinks and everything you need to support them. Hybrid Can fit for relatively high damage and a tank that will hold off for a long time. Onlike other ships the retribution can fill all the roles nicely (can't set up for gank on an ishkur for example), and most important of all to me the ability to have a balanced hybrid setup. The 'better' enyo has less armor to act as a buffer, and an obviously smaller capacitor, it does however outshine in doing damage up close, wile the retribution can and will do nice damage in a huge variety of ranges. Let's cut the **, let's get to the math... Enyo** - Long Range Fitting (Max Skills) 4 x 125mm Railgun II 2 x DMG Mod 2.4 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 4.74375 (Original * Ship * Gun * Spec * Surgical Strike) Adding in two damage mods to that to that we get... 5.6716 3.25 * .8 = 2.6 + DMG Mod = 2.11 5.6716 / 2.11 * 4 = 10.75184834 Antimatter at 9k optimal = 129 DPS Lead Charge at 18.75k optimal = 86 DPS Enyo - Short Range Fitting (Max Skills) 4 x Light Ion Blaster II 2 x DMG Mod 3.375 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 6.670898438 Then after appying the heatsink ... 7.9757 We then get a ROF of 1.95 with two heat sinks... 7.9757 / 1.95 * 4 = 16.36 Antimatter at 1.4k Optimal = 196.32 Antimatter at 2.5k = 98.16 DPS (Unfair Comparison) Lead Charge S at 2.8k = 130.8 DPS Retribution (Max Skills) 4 x Medium Pulse II 2 x DMG Mod 3.6 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 7.15625 Then after appying the heatsink ... 8.556 We then get a ROF of 2.28 with two heat sinks... 8.556 / 2.28 * 4 = 15.01 Multifreq at 5.6k Optimal = 180.12 DPS Standard at 12k Optimal = 120.08 DPS Final Results Enyo Long Antimatter at 9k optimal = 129 DPS Lead Charge at 18.75k optimal = 86 DPS Enyo Short Antimatter at 1.4k Optimal = 196.32 Antimatter at 2.5k = 98.16 DPS (Unfair Comparison) Lead Charge S at 2.8k = 130.8 DPS Retribution Multifreq at 5.6k Optimal = 180.12 DPS Standard at 12k Optimal = 120.08 DPS Rebunking As you can see the enyo has the advantages at the extreme ranges (< 2) u (>12), however the retribution sweeps the medium ranges (5 - 12) Drone DPS is irrelavent since with max skills it's less then 4 DPS for the enyo, but it is your decision if you want to consider this. Both ships can have a relatively powerful tank, but the retribution does outdo it since it has three more slots to work with, but even if you consider two tanking slots you still get a large buffer due to the larger armor. Now consider this... Retribution has a better tank, and has a more wide range of damage dealing and quick switching. Retribution however can't hold it's prey while remaining viable. Enyo can deal damage far out and can for a limited time period scamble at that range. Retribution can't be configured with viable beam setup. Close range enyo is a chance ship as if you're double webbed you're screwed, thus it needs a 90% webifier to work. It also needs a MWD or again, you're screwed, this also screws up the tank. Thus... Both ships require to be in a gang to reach their true effectiveness, and both ships are deadly in a gang, however the enyo will also help in holding down the enemy. The damage difference is 16.2 DPS but increases with the use of T2 ammo. Enyo must sacrifice range for damage, retribution must sacrifice tackling and some damage for range. Both ships will be deadly with the proper pilot, and honestly I can't say where a 1vs1 with them will go, all depends on starting range and propulsion mods, etc. What kind of limit is 23.4375KB anyway?
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.02.20 04:09:00 - [173] Hmm, no matter what you say other AFs can hold down their opponents and the retribution can't... And USUALLY you can't find a friend to tackle for you when the enemy is in local. ******************** Join Public Channel "Christian Public Access" for great fellowship and fun OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one ~kieron
Aeaus	Posted - 2006.02.20 05:40:00 - [174] Yes but other AFs still need to be in a group to use their high damage setups, a webbed frigite is pretty much a screwed frigite =/ What kind of limit is 23.4375KB anyway?
Huzza Mataa	Posted - 2006.02.20 05:59:00 - [175] Personally I think the Retribution is fine as is. The so called ' useless' hislot can be fitted with something like a Nos (if youre thinking solo, that could be important), helping its cap. Although im only a few months old, I' d say cap is pretty damn important. With a Nos and a couple of well-trained skills a Retri could fire 4 lasers plus keep its cap recharged just in case its tank begins to fail and you need to use an armor repairer. The Retri could survive for about a minute and a half with the armor repairer on. Swapping a hislot to mid would compromise what the Retri is all about-damage and tank. Who said Amarr were about electronics? If you want a solo AF/tackler train another race, seeing as the Veng sucks as is. I think instead of messing with the Retri, the Veng should be fixed with by swapping bonuses or whatever to make it a more viable alternative to solo PvP'ers.
Livia Tarquina	Posted - 2006.02.20 06:06:00 - [176] can is the operative word, but well is another story. Just because AF's are the flavor of the month build for tackling doesn't mean they have always been good for tackling. It just seems AFs are being used as crutches for their armor resistances. Really if you use an AF for tackling it means your desperate for a dedicated tackler and have to run with what you've got. Hey if I was a spy running from border guards I'd sure as hell want a sports car, but I've got to run with the crappy mini. Get what I'm saying? Or are suddenly yugos all the rage now. "Big guns and heavy armor what else is there?" --Amarrian Admiral before entering battle against Jove Navy
Arisani	Posted - 2006.02.20 06:26:00 - [177] Leave the Retribution alone. It does it's job excellently. Best frigate tank, best frigate damage. Its only downside: One middle slot. There should never be a ship that is perfect and the best in every single way. If you want tackling power, go fly the Vengeance. What? Not enough tank and firepower on that one? Fly the Retribution again then.
Ante	Posted - 2006.02.20 06:40:00 - [178] Originally by: Spartan III Hmm, no matter what you say other AFs can hold down their opponents and the retribution can't... And USUALLY you can't find a friend to tackle for you when the enemy is in local. Why are you so adamant that all assault ships must be exactly the same? The Retribution is better at different things. Using any ship in a way it isn't designed isn't going to work too well. Having said that 140 dps at 20km range with a j5 scrambler with a great tank is nothing to sneeze at.
Entreri Finwe	Posted - 2006.02.20 11:17:00 - [179] I haven't tried in awhile but last time I tried fitting 4x150mm's and 1 std launcher on my Harpy I ended up lacking PG I think...fitting a MAPC means you have to loose one mag stab... I think most ppl fit 125mm's and then a rocket launcher perhaps? I recall it being low on CPU with a full tank, 2 mag stab II's and 125mm II's. Could we have a graph showing this in comparison with the medium pulses on the Retribution? I recall 125 mm II rails and Medium Pulses having the same fitting constrains... ---
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2006.02.20 11:27:00 - [180] Originally by: Spartan III Hmm, no matter what you say other AFs can hold down their opponents and the retribution can't... And USUALLY I can't find a friend to tackle for me when the enemy is in local.
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.03.09 04:03:00 - [181] Originally by: Joerd Toastius Originally by: Spartan III Hmm, no matter what you say other AFs can hold down their opponents and the retribution can't... And USUALLY I can't find a friend to tackle for me when the enemy is in local. Most people don't have a tackling bud on at every second they themselves are on, and even if he is on when your on he will most likely be busy with something. Takes planning to setup a good gang with a retribution, pilots of other AFs simply log on and begin hunting within seconds. ******************** Wolven Elite Guard is recruiting - join and get ready for some awsome PvP fights and your chance to kick some BoB butt! [red]OMFWTFYarrBQPwn3d!!!11eleventy-one
Laythun	Posted - 2006.03.09 10:05:00 - [182] Originally by: Aeaus Retribution (Max Skills) 4 x Medium Pulse II 2 x DMG Mod 3.6 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 7.15625 Then after appying the heatsink ... 8.556 We then get a ROF of 2.28 with two heat sinks... 8.556 / 2.28 * 4 = 15.01 Multifreq at 5.6k Optimal = 180.12 DPS Standard at 12k Optimal = 120.08 DPS Final Results Enyo Long Antimatter at 9k optimal = 129 DPS Lead Charge at 18.75k optimal = 86 DPS Enyo Short Antimatter at 1.4k Optimal = 196.32 Antimatter at 2.5k = 98.16 DPS (Unfair Comparison) Lead Charge S at 2.8k = 130.8 DPS Retribution Multifreq at 5.6k Optimal = 180.12 DPS Standard at 12k Optimal = 120.08 DPS Rebunking As you can see the enyo has the advantages at the extreme ranges (< 2) u (>12), however the retribution sweeps the medium ranges (5 - 12) Well written. But. Did u test the retribution with conflag ammo? and the ultraviolet t2 ammo? also your math only proves that u are still limited in choice with the retribution either tank or gank, no other options Originally by: Aeaus Retribution can't be configured with viable beam setup. this isnt strictly true. observe 4 med beam II afb II (or web, but i find they still track well) mapc, thrmic plating, SM rep II, adaptive plating. nanofiber(ok im at work and i think i may have a better setup that has a 200mm plate) in any case i used that setup against fix last autumn(fall) and it was very effective solo against ceptors but if somone could run the math (im @ work) i'd be grateful where can i petition the ISD member that messed with my sig for no reason?
CB LoKi	Posted - 2006.03.09 14:51:00 - [183] ./signed ----------- su rm -rf / ----------- Please resize your signature, oh and I love you - Jacques ♥♥♥♥Give Zealot a Drone Bay♥♥♥♥
Xio2	Posted - 2006.03.09 15:49:00 - [184] If you get this fixed, I want my Caldari AF's to have a 75% EM resistance bonus. -------------- now this is the way a sig should be Xio2
Xio2	Posted - 2006.03.09 15:52:00 - [185] Originally by: Laythun Originally by: Aeaus Retribution (Max Skills) 4 x Medium Pulse II 2 x DMG Mod 3.6 * 1.25 * 1.25 * 1.1 * 1.15 = 7.15625 Then after appying the heatsink ... 8.556 We then get a ROF of 2.28 with two heat sinks... 8.556 / 2.28 * 4 = 15.01 Multifreq at 5.6k Optimal = 180.12 DPS Standard at 12k Optimal = 120.08 DPS Final Results Enyo Long Antimatter at 9k optimal = 129 DPS Lead Charge at 18.75k optimal = 86 DPS Enyo Short Antimatter at 1.4k Optimal = 196.32 Antimatter at 2.5k = 98.16 DPS (Unfair Comparison) Lead Charge S at 2.8k = 130.8 DPS Retribution Multifreq at 5.6k Optimal = 180.12 DPS Standard at 12k Optimal = 120.08 DPS Rebunking As you can see the enyo has the advantages at the extreme ranges (< 2) u (>12), however the retribution sweeps the medium ranges (5 - 12) Well written. But. Did u test the retribution with conflag ammo? and the ultraviolet t2 ammo? also your math only proves that u are still limited in choice with the retribution either tank or gank, no other options Originally by: Aeaus Retribution can't be configured with viable beam setup. this isnt strictly true. observe 4 med beam II afb II (or web, but i find they still track well) mapc, thrmic plating, SM rep II, adaptive plating. nanofiber(ok im at work and i think i may have a better setup that has a 200mm plate) in any case i used that setup against fix last autumn(fall) and it was very effective solo against ceptors but if somone could run the math (im @ work) i'd be grateful Aren't most ships only limited to tank or gank? Especially Amarr? That is what they are designed to do, isn't it? -------------- now this is the way a sig should be Xio2
Breed Love	Posted - 2006.03.09 16:00:00 - [186] retri should stay the way it is. The different race af's are almost identical already, which is bad. ------ Originally by: Gariuys Breed Love for president.
BillyBong2	Posted - 2006.03.09 16:03:00 - [187] I had a Vengeance and an Enyo attack me recently in 0.0. I survived and they were into structure when they warped out. 1 Thing I have figured out, if you put a scrambler/disruptor in your mid slot you can keep your oppenant around. Both times I was webbed, so they were in range of the disruptor and both times they were in the range of the 2 pt scram. This ship is a trade off. You are either pure damage with no tank and some sort of holding power or you are tanking their damage to out last them. I still say that this ship is Gang Support and when my gang went after two inties and had one webbed. They did not last long. _________________________ Siggy by Esturary
Ahkmed	Posted - 2006.03.14 07:43:00 - [188] Ok, bottom line is the vengeance is horrable....scrap it and start over! The Ret is fine as it is, if you want to tackle don't fly a retribution, a mid slot would be nice but is not necessary, having tanked a raven flown by someone with twice my sp, I love the ret. It doesn't require a change, without a web i can take down inti's with no problems, cruisers fall in a minute or so, and other af's don't last long either...mind you all of these ships being flown by older characters. Obvoiusly the Ret has lovers and haters, but if you want to pvp with it....deal with the awsome tank, big damage, and no scramber....unless your fighting an inti there is absolutly no reason to fit a web on either of the ships. Amarr ships are ment to take/deal damage not much else...although the ret like almost all amarr ships is lacking a drone bay and/or missile slot, that's constantly the draw back of amarr ships. if you want to tackle get a scorp, if you plan on using an AF for 1 on 1 pvp your taking your chances no matter which one your using. If the worst thing that happens is that they warp out....be glad you just saved 20-35mil by not losing your ship. I have and fly both the amarr af's and the ret is amazing! It's fine! Leave it alone!
Waut	Posted - 2006.03.14 08:36:00 - [189] I actually like the Vengeance. As a tackler in a gang anyway (even tough it's a bit slow compared to an inty) Plan for galaxy domination: Step 1. Steal lots of underpants Step 2. ... Step 3. Get declared as Eve Emperor
Spartan III	Posted - 2006.03.23 14:44:00 - [190] Well the vengeance is getting a damage boost but loosing its cap boost bonus so basically its ganna be a cheaper retribution that can tackle, but gets short on cap... Where does this level the retribution I ask you? --- Wolven Elite Guard is recruiting - new and old players with high regard for high morals and values

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