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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
88
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Posted - 2014.01.25 15:13:00 -
[121] - Quote
Nikk Narrel you are ignoring my claim. That putting money into WiS takes money away from other more core things that makes eve eve.
WiS is not free, cannot be free. There is cost. Costs such as not fixing TiDi or whatever. |
Burning Bob
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.01.26 04:59:00 -
[122] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Nikk Narrel you are ignoring my claim. That putting money into WiS takes money away from other more core things that makes eve eve.
WiS is not free, cannot be free. There is cost. Costs such as not fixing TiDi or whatever.
First, He's not ignoring your claim. You changed it. Originally you were talking about monetary cost. Now your talking about opportunity costs which are subjective. Second, There is a point where adding too many people to something subtracts from the project instead of adding to it.
Nikk's point is that they already have specialized people for WiS. Retasking them to work on WiS again won't physically cost CCP anything. Yes it may slow development down a tiny bit in another field but WiS devs would be far more productive in the field they specialized in. In business, talented employees are considered a valuable resource and you don't waste them on tasks in areas they aren't talented in. |
Daoden
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2014.01.26 06:28:00 -
[123] - Quote
WIS is a cool idea but like many have pointed out it doesn't bring more to the game then focusing on other areas. Only reason i would like more WIS is if you could attack ppl who are docked, which lets be honest, CCP wouldnt allow. |
Lephia DeGrande
Luxembourg Space Union
191
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Posted - 2014.01.26 08:21:00 -
[124] - Quote
WIS is the Cherry on my Icecream... to Bad the Icecream doesnt taste that much. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
88
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Posted - 2014.01.26 09:14:00 -
[125] - Quote
Opportunity costs are not subjective. If i spend a million dollars for one year on WiS "specialists"*, that is a million dollars i can't spend on "fixing TiDi" specialists. Its completely quantifiable. Even if you assert 100% specialized programmers.
Worse in this case in that you may not be able to fire these programmers after you realized you screwed up sinking money into WiS. Perhaps next time less specialized programmers would be a better economic choice.
However there is more. Integrating WiS into the rest of the code base is also not free. You can't just have WiS bolted onto the side for free. It has to integrate with everything else in eve. And now your using all the other people to integrate code for WiS instead of working on better things. More eve like things.
* A million dollars is not even 10 programmers at 100k + overheads.
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Burning Bob
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.01.26 16:23:00 -
[126] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Opportunity costs are not subjective. If i spend a million dollars for one year on WiS "specialists"*, that is a million dollars i can't spend on "fixing TiDi" specialists. Its completely quantifiable. Even if you assert 100% specialized programmers.
Worse in this case in that you may not be able to fire these programmers after you realized you screwed up sinking money into WiS. Perhaps next time less specialized programmers would be a better economic choice.
However there is more. Integrating WiS into the rest of the code base is also not free. You can't just have WiS bolted onto the side for free. It has to integrate with everything else in eve. And now your using all the other people to integrate code for WiS instead of working on better things. More eve like things.
* A million dollars is not even 10 programmers at 100k + overheads.
Then by your logic they should never add anything new to the game because it would take away from balancing things and fixing bugs. Doing things like that, Eve would have died years ago. If they hired less specialized programmers we would end up with half assed code that barely runs let alone integrates well with other systems. Also, you're still talking opportunity costs which btw are subjective because what you may think is a loss may not actually be. You need to go about this like a businessman instead of an economist. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
88
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Posted - 2014.01.26 16:44:00 -
[127] - Quote
Burning Bob wrote: Then by your logic they should never add anything new to the game because it would take away from balancing things and fixing bugs.
You are having reading comprehension issues. I never said that. What i said was that there is a real cost of adding a feature like WiS. Now is that cost worth it? I would say no in *this case* because its trying to do something eve will never be great at. WiS is a entire MMO in its own right where some of the "competition" are the biggest dev companies in the world.
Adding WiS will mean all the parts of this game that make eve, eve, will get neglected for the worse. Because then it becomes a game that has neither compelling WiS or spaceships that actually spend time undocked.
Eve is not dying.
And even if it was, WiS would not save it. |
Burning Bob
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.01.26 17:27:00 -
[128] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:Burning Bob wrote: Then by your logic they should never add anything new to the game because it would take away from balancing things and fixing bugs.
You are having reading comprehension issues. I never said that. What i said was that there is a real cost of adding a feature like WiS. Now is that cost worth it? I would say no in *this case* because its trying to do something eve will never be great at. WiS is a entire MMO in its own right where some of the "competition" are the biggest [edit] game dev companies in the world. Adding WiS will mean all the parts of this game that make eve, eve, will get neglected for the worse. Because then it becomes a game that has neither compelling WiS or spaceships that actually spend time undocked. Eve is not dying. And even if it was, WiS would not save it. Apparently you're the one who has reading comprehension issues. I said if they acted like you eve would have died. Also, I wasn't quoting you I was following your logic. You don't want them to expand the game because anything they add won't be perfect from the start so its a waste regardless of its potential. CCP wants to turn eve into what we saw in the future vision trailer. WiS, Dust, and VR are all steps in that direction. Steps that you don't want them to take because you can't accept change. |
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
88
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Posted - 2014.01.26 17:38:00 -
[129] - Quote
Logic? You are not following any logic. there is no logic in "WiS costs resources better spent elsewhere" to "Never add or change anything".
As i have repeatably said I think WiS is a waste of resources. I have not made a statement about anything thing else. But i would add Dust to that. Your putting words in my mouth that just suits your argument. I think thats a strawman? Can never remember.
Show me how the huge amount of resources for WiS are justified?
If you think it won't take lots of resources then you should join every MMMO ever that has people walking around and show them how to do it without these massive teams of developers and artists. Because no one else knows how to do that. |
Burning Bob
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2014.01.26 19:01:00 -
[130] - Quote
Delt0r Garsk wrote:there is no logic in "WiS costs resources better spent elsewhere".
Thats about the first correct thing you've said. I haven't been putting words in your mouth I've just been bringing your flawed logic to light. You said you think anything that wasn't related to the core of the game was a waste. Well, WiS will be related to the core of the game. Its just going to take more time than your short sightedness will allow. Honestly what can they add that's so much more important than them expanding the game to attract more people to it?
Quote:Show me how the huge amount of resources for WiS are justified? Did you not read the last portion of my post? They need to make WiS so they can build off of it later and make a much much better game. |
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Angelica Dreamstar
Epic Boo Bees
336
|
Posted - 2014.01.26 20:29:00 -
[131] - Quote
To improve the situation for us, we need to take small steps to divert their attention towards us.
99% of the people involved, right here on the forums, do crap **** to improve the situation. "Remember that every time you buy something, somebody else can't buy it. It matters at the end of the chain for the one guy who can't get it anymore, because YOU bought one!" --áJoin the Epic Boo Bees! (RP,PvE/PvP,wardecs,new players!) You're at it from day 0! |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3919
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Posted - 2014.01.27 04:38:00 -
[132] - Quote
CCP is going to invest and develop more than just the current well known aspect of EVE.
This is their company, and they have that right.
It might be walking in darkness, another DUST 514, or possibly something with that fighter game at the fanfest.
Since we know they are going to invest in things beyond the core game, as history demonstrates, why should we not support this being an addition to EVE, like WiS is expressed to be?
It has no reason to remove support from the primary game, or affect it meaningfully, as these resources are going to be invested in a diversified game portfolio regardless.
I would rather EVE got the cross genre support of WiS, than see it blossom into some other game. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2635
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 05:34:00 -
[133] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:
I would rather EVE got the cross genre support of WiS, than see it blossom into some other game.
Too late.
Star Citizen has more WiS in Beta than Eve has as a finished product. And that was before this whole "2nd re-alignment of Eve's future vision to an even greater FIS circle jerk"... now with mobile structures to expand boring spaceboat gameplay and soon to have destructible stargates to revitalize the stale sub-cap landscape.
CCP had the only angle, the only claim to a sci-fi space boat shooter with capacity for a WiS component. Hoping and allowing CCP to expand into other platforms in the hopes of generating more revenue from sales of platforms nobody cares to buy when they want to play a PC game is not going to help either.
Alas it seems the hoards of flat minded pro-FiS "gimmeh mah Rifters online" delinquents managed to kill that pipe dream by shooting some re-spawnable statues in a market hub and unsubbing their cyno alts, because they were not happy with having to fork out $50 for vanity items they didn't care for and dont use.
People who got into Eve because of Freelancer, looking to expand on that adventure... found joy in FiS for a number of years. But we never had the WiS side that freelancer had and the expectations for getting it working were so much more than we had back then (like owning the bars that agents were in... ala hi-sec pOCO tax anybody?). By the end of this year and a few more SC modules later, those people who joined Eve because of freelancer will leave Eve because of Star Citizen.
And I'll support that product and or service with a smile......while having my own stuff. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Cypherdog
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
33
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Posted - 2014.01.27 10:24:00 -
[134] - Quote
Lephia DeGrande wrote: Edit: I would rather ask "Why is there still no comets, real Asteroid Belts in Space or why do we have over 5000+ Systems with only one Sun or why do we have still no physics or why cant we not use structures to hide and cover?"
I keep asking myself those questions. If they prefer to work on FiS instead of WiS, why haven't those features already being developed?
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Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3919
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 14:33:00 -
[135] - Quote
Cypherdog wrote:Lephia DeGrande wrote: Edit: I would rather ask "Why is there still no comets, real Asteroid Belts in Space or why do we have over 5000+ Systems with only one Sun or why do we have still no physics or why cant we not use structures to hide and cover?"
I keep asking myself those questions. If they prefer to work on FiS instead of WiS, why haven't some those features already being developed? Edit: Binary systems already exist. Why don't we have flying cars everywhere, or robot butlers and maids?
Same reason, fixing and maintaining what we have takes a huge chunk of resources, leaving development with just enough to move at the current pace. Don't misunderstand, these projects are in the works, but they are nowhere near as simple as some might think. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1181
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 14:35:00 -
[136] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:
I would rather EVE got the cross genre support of WiS, than see it blossom into some other game.
Too late. Star Citizen has more WiS in Beta than Eve has as a finished product. And that was before this whole "2nd re-alignment of Eve's future vision to an even greater FIS circle jerk"... now with mobile structures to expand boring spaceboat gameplay and soon to have destructible stargates to revitalize the stale sub-cap landscape. CCP had the only angle, the only claim to a sci-fi space boat shooter with capacity for a WiS component. Hoping and allowing CCP to expand into other platforms in the hopes of generating more revenue from sales of platforms nobody cares to buy when they want to play a PC game is not going to help either. Alas it seems the hoards of flat minded pro-FiS "gimmeh mah Rifters online" delinquents managed to kill that pipe dream by shooting some re-spawnable statues in a market hub and unsubbing their cyno alts, because they were not happy with having to fork out $50 for vanity items they didn't care for and dont use. People who got into Eve because of Freelancer, looking to expand on that adventure... found joy in FiS for a number of years. But we never had the WiS side that freelancer had and the expectations for getting it working were so much more than we had back then (like owning the bars that agents were in... ala hi-sec pOCO tax anybody?). By the end of this year and a few more SC modules later, those people who joined Eve because of freelancer will leave Eve because of Star Citizen. And I'll support that product and or service with a smile......while having my own stuff.
Star citzen had the disadvantage of being vaporware....
"If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
2637
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 16:06:00 -
[137] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:
I would rather EVE got the cross genre support of WiS, than see it blossom into some other game.
Too late. Star Citizen has more WiS in Beta than Eve has as a finished product. And that was before this whole "2nd re-alignment of Eve's future vision to an even greater FIS circle jerk"... now with mobile structures to expand boring spaceboat gameplay and soon to have destructible stargates to revitalize the stale sub-cap landscape. CCP had the only angle, the only claim to a sci-fi space boat shooter with capacity for a WiS component. Hoping and allowing CCP to expand into other platforms in the hopes of generating more revenue from sales of platforms nobody cares to buy when they want to play a PC game is not going to help either. Alas it seems the hoards of flat minded pro-FiS "gimmeh mah Rifters online" delinquents managed to kill that pipe dream by shooting some re-spawnable statues in a market hub and unsubbing their cyno alts, because they were not happy with having to fork out $50 for vanity items they didn't care for and dont use. People who got into Eve because of Freelancer, looking to expand on that adventure... found joy in FiS for a number of years. But we never had the WiS side that freelancer had and the expectations for getting it working were so much more than we had back then (like owning the bars that agents were in... ala hi-sec pOCO tax anybody?). By the end of this year and a few more SC modules later, those people who joined Eve because of freelancer will leave Eve because of Star Citizen. And I'll support that product and or service with a smile......while having my own stuff. Star citzen had the disadvantage of being vaporware.... Also you clearly were not here for the riots. because you do not get what happened. We rioted and most unsubscribed ALL their accounts (as i did) because of the arrogant statements of eve directorship, and throwing us a CRAP HORRIBLE character rendering that they dared to call an expansiont hat REDUCED functionalities in game and caused several computers to have problems. Eve community was clear, that mentality that CCP tried to switch into.. is somehting we do NOT TOLERATE.
I was actually. Lots of whoring on alts that could venture into Jita, I assure you.
Eve was vaporware until it was set in stone.
And its a shame you guys didn't stay unsubbed... Eve would have been a better place without you. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
3919
|
Posted - 2014.01.27 16:17:00 -
[138] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:Star citzen had the disadvantage of being vaporware....
Also you clearly were not here for the riots. because you do not get what happened. We rioted and most unsubscribed ALL their accounts (as i did) because of the arrogant statements of eve directorship, and throwing us a CRAP HORRIBLE character rendering that they dared to call an expansiont hat REDUCED functionalities in game and caused several computers to have problems.
Eve community was clear, that mentality that CCP tried to switch into.. is somehting we do NOT TOLERATE. Vaporware + money = Actual Software. There is no higher explanation for that equation, and that other piece of software has the money in place.
As to the riots, they were not about WiS.
WiS was collaterally damaged by the rumor of PTW coming to the game. If they had simply left the default station environment alone, and put the captains quarters as the optional place you could look at if curious, the complaints would have been trivial.
As long as fighting in space is unaffected, there can be no truly valid complaints against WiS. You can ignore it, or you can explore it, the same as anything else. Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence So Local Chat vanished, now what? |
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld White Mountain Coalition
963
|
Posted - 2014.01.28 00:43:00 -
[139] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:Star citzen had the disadvantage of being vaporware....
Also you clearly were not here for the riots. because you do not get what happened. We rioted and most unsubscribed ALL their accounts (as i did) because of the arrogant statements of eve directorship, and throwing us a CRAP HORRIBLE character rendering that they dared to call an expansiont hat REDUCED functionalities in game and caused several computers to have problems.
Eve community was clear, that mentality that CCP tried to switch into.. is somehting we do NOT TOLERATE. Vaporware + money = Actual Software. There is no higher explanation for that equation, and that other piece of software has the money in place. As to the riots, they were not about WiS. WiS was collaterally damaged by the rumor of PTW coming to the game. If they had simply left the default station environment alone, and put the captains quarters as the optional place you could look at if curious, the complaints would have been trivial. As long as fighting in space is unaffected, there can be no truly valid complaints against WiS. You can ignore it, or you can explore it, the same as anything else.
I can confirm that this is true, I rioted in all the hubs and biomassed my main in protest (25million sp at the time) the riots were about pay to win, not walking in stations. Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction... |
Kabaos
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2014.02.01 11:59:00 -
[140] - Quote
Hm, intresting. |
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Kabaos
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
116
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Posted - 2014.03.04 14:58:00 -
[141] - Quote
Continue... |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
571
|
Posted - 2014.03.04 15:07:00 -
[142] - Quote
Incarna and WiS is in the dumpster where it belongs. This is a FiS game. Not barbies in space. Free Ripley Weaver! |
Seliah
0mega.
48
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Posted - 2014.03.04 15:14:00 -
[143] - Quote
Soldarius wrote:Incarna and WiS is in the dumpster where it belongs. This is a FiS game. Not barbies in space.
If EVE was just about flying in space, then there would be a lot of other games out there that are much better at this. EVE is about living and evolving in one complex sandbox, and flying ships in space just happens to be a big part of it. It doesn't mean that everything else should be discarded. The ability to walk in stations would be a tremendeous boost to immersion within the EVE universe and, if done properly, would add a huge dimension to the game and a whole set of exciting features (spaceship related features ofc, but from another point of view). The problem is it would require a lot of time and patience to get all this done, which is probably why it won't happen anytime soon.
Anyway, I just wanted to say your comment was plain stupid. |
Crucial Thread
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2014.03.07 20:16:00 -
[144] - Quote
Seliah wrote:Soldarius wrote:Incarna and WiS is in the dumpster where it belongs. This is a FiS game. Not barbies in space. If EVE was just about flying in space, then there would be a lot of other games out there that are much better at this. EVE is about living and evolving in one complex sandbox, and flying ships in space just happens to be a big part of it. It doesn't mean that everything else should be discarded. The ability to walk in stations would be a tremendeous boost to immersion within the EVE universe and, if done properly, would add a huge dimension to the game and a whole set of exciting features (spaceship related features ofc, but from another point of view). The problem is it would require a lot of time and patience to get all this done, which is probably why it won't happen anytime soon. Anyway, I just wanted to say your comment was plain stupid.
I couldn't say better, fully agree.
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Kabaos
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
119
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Posted - 2014.04.07 16:45:00 -
[145] - Quote
Bump! |
Kabaos
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
119
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Posted - 2014.05.13 12:56:00 -
[146] - Quote
Bump, some comments ) |
Binary Arnoux
Dark Pheonix Armada
0
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Posted - 2014.05.20 07:58:00 -
[147] - Quote
this game feels like a browser game sometimes. just a chat, and buttons, say what u want, but a ship dont identify me more than an avatar, i feel WiS would give more social life to eve. but i dont think it will happend anytime soon, but games like Star citizen, and elite dangerous are coming and will bring all space u want and all avatar interaction u want, so, there is hope there if not here. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research Special Circumstances Alliance
17
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Posted - 2014.05.20 08:15:00 -
[148] - Quote
Incarna defenitely had some good stuff coming (but it was flawed from the birth, yes, I agree), but lobby of "shiny 3D spaceship models in a goo" part of the game is too strong on forums and well organised ingame, so take this bunch of new shiny hulls (like there aren't enough of them in the game already) and be happy, why shouldn't you? "You need something completely new and different for a change? Why wouldn't you try playing WoW then, or WoT?" It'a a pity to see it came down to this. |
Kabaos
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
121
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 14:35:00 -
[149] - Quote
Binary Arnoux wrote:this game feels like a browser game sometimes. just a chat, and buttons, say what u want, but a ship dont identify me more than an avatar, i feel WiS would give more social life to eve. but i dont think it will happend anytime soon, but games like Star citizen, and elite dangerous are coming and will bring all space u want and all avatar interaction u want, so, there is hope there if not here.
I think so ..) |
RavenTesio
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
120
|
Posted - 2014.06.01 14:51:00 -
[150] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:I guess you were living in a cave for past several years so you know nothing about Jita riots and player protests against "features" Incarna had to offer.
Those "Riots" had nothing to do with Incarna, they were entirely about the fact CCP was taking the **** with their Micro-Transaction items like Clothes in the NEXUS Store... the entire concept of Incarna was something most players were actually really looking forward to, and the fact that during the whole "Let's re-evaluate our priorities" that CCP did... that entire aspect of the game basically got completely shelved.
I'm not going to say that I'm upset that they've put so much focus on going back to fix many of the long-standing issues with EVE by completely re-building the core game from the ground up ... as honestly I do think that was a smart decision, but the fact that Incarna was literally abandoned because of the complaints over pricing; rather than the feature itself was honestly was pretty extreme.
Especially now with the 6-Week Release schedule, meaning implementing something like Incarna; which as we were led to understand was not fully released because it wasn't ready, but merely because it lacked content could easily be remedied with them releasing it bit-by-bit with the new schedule as a "Bonus"
I mean after all DUST 514 / Project Legion heavily rely upon much of what was developed with Incarna and the Carbon Technology Platform as a whole; and while sure we've had a trickle out of clothing specifically over the last year of stuff they basically had sitting around ready to go ... it doesn't make that much sense that they're still keeping this stuff just stored on a HDD somewhere right now.
Especially as only last year or so at the Russian CCP event they were showing off Prototype gameplay footage (done in Unity) of how they were thinking of implementing Incarna for getting implants for Dust from Wormhole (Sleeper) space. So it's not like they've completely shelved it internally, they just don't seem to want to release or let us really know what is going on with it; which as I said it would make sense for them to now look at pushing out non-gameplay aspects so it can be tinkered and fine tuned before they do add gameplay aspects. |
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