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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Karistis
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Posted - 2006.04.26 02:45:00 -
[211]
Odet summed up the problem quite well, and I must say that I agree completely. WCS on a travel setup = good use of WCS and not a problem. Use of WCS for a combat setup, however, is, as Odet has stated, unbalanced due to the lack of penalties and the fact that an average WCS-fitted battleship can do as much damage as an average PvP-fitted battleship with the advantage of being able to run away and have near-risk-free gameplay. You want low-risk? Go to highsec. That's what it's there for. This is why lowsec has become a near-risk-free playground where anyone with half a brain can romp around freely without a care in the world, as Lorth stated in another thread (which I am unable to locate at the moment, but it was quite an excellent write-up; don't know why the thread died). Lowsec and 0.0 were designed with an element of high-risk in mind.
WCS being fitted on combat ships, as stated by many others in this thread and in others, is a serious problem that needs balancing. People fit full racks of WCS to their combat setups just so that they don't have to chew what they bite off by taking the risk of entering lowsec and/or 0.0.
_________________________________________
2005.01.17 22:04:22 combat Chackle [PUSY] perfectly runs from you, wrecking for 1500 cowardice. |
Shin Ra
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Posted - 2006.04.26 03:17:00 -
[212]
 Originally by: Odet
BE has stabs and stuff.
Odet,
The information on your post is not quite true.
Realistically, if you bring 13 or 14 ships, its gonna scare us away. You'd also have to come up with some uber plan to lure us to you. But all that aside, there are a number of different ways which you can gain an advantage. There are other ways to kill people besides scrambling them. bump+web for example. I'm sure you know all this, but on your post you make is sound like its impossible to kill us.
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Drasked
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Posted - 2006.04.26 03:48:00 -
[213]
omfg pplz with stabs pwns us lawl lollerstakes omfg lawl!!one1!!11!!1!
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Odet
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Posted - 2006.04.26 03:54:00 -
[214]
Originally by: Shin Ra
Originally by: Odet
BE has stabs and stuff.
Odet,
The information on your post is not quite true.
Realistically, if you bring 13 or 14 ships, its gonna scare us away. You'd also have to come up with some uber plan to lure us to you. But all that aside, there are a number of different ways which you can gain an advantage. There are other ways to kill people besides scrambling them. bump+web for example. I'm sure you know all this, but on your post you make is sound like its impossible to kill us.
I never said it was impossible to kill vs those setups, I simply stated it was imbalanced.
As you said the bump and web can work but doesnt alwayz work out.
On the other hand how hard do you have to attempt to use your wcs? no work at all.
And like you said, if we brought those numbers to counteract those imbalanced setups we'd need much greater numbers and tactics, which as soon as you saw the numbers in local you'd run. Which only enforces my argument.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
Odet
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Posted - 2006.04.26 04:14:00 -
[215]
On a seperate note let's take a look at warpcores vs interdictors argument.
Warpcore Skill REQ:
navigation 1
Warp drive operation 1
(no activation or player skill involved)
VS
Interdictor skill REQ:
Frigate 5
interceptors 5
evasive maneuvering 5
destroyers 5
science 5
engeneirng 5
propulsion jamming 5
interceptors 4
electronics 3
spaceship command 3
navigation 2
graviton physics 1
(requires activations and player skill)
Pretty big difference.
Now the prices
warpcores:
10k
(can be used in empire)
VS
interdictors:
28 million
(cant be used in empire)
hmmm thats intresting theres also a pretty big price difference.
Now lets sum it all up:
the argument of some was "use an interdictor problem solved".
Not exactly buddy....
A tech 1 module that has bare minimum skill and fitting requirements and you say sure go counter it with this 28mill isk paper thin ship with insane skill requirements in the middle of an assault that it will be primary target.
anyone else see an imbalance?
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
Hamatitio
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Posted - 2006.04.26 04:53:00 -
[216]
no, I don't see anything wrong with that odet!
haha..
nah wcs are imba... Everyone defending them uses them.
---
Originally by: Wrangler
...why do you people always have to verbally assault each other over things that doesn't matter anyway?
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EwokPoacher
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Posted - 2006.04.26 05:11:00 -
[217]
Odet is my hero.
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2006.04.26 06:54:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Odet
I never said it was impossible to kill vs those setups, I simply stated it was imbalanced.
As you said the bump and web can work but doesnt alwayz work out.
On the other hand how hard do you have to attempt to use your wcs? no work at all.
And like you said, if we brought those numbers to counteract those imbalanced setups we'd need much greater numbers and tactics, which as soon as you saw the numbers in local you'd run. Which only enforces my argument.
Thats not what I was saying. I was saying that you don't NEED that kind of numbers to win. There are other ways.
The argument about wcs skill reqs vs interdictor skill reqs is not balanced since 1 interdictor can negate unlimited number of wcs within a set area. Quantifying this is not just a mateer of skill reqs, there are other factors.
At the end of the day, everyone knows wcs are flawed in their design, but the only way the balance this is by using the future propulsion system. Perhaps with racial scramblers or something. Chance based is a no-no, but more detailed numerical values rather than 1-0 would be of benefit.
There are other issues such as always aligned sniping ships and ecm doms. Each appears unbalanced in the hands of the victim since the victim's worldy view is determined by past experiences, as is mine. Cognate dissonance and all that crap. Since the general view of players is either stongly for or strongly against, little productive reasoning can be deduced from these threads, other than the fact that there is a problem. The nature and degree of the problem cannot be determined by biased views (urs and mine).
Sadly the only way forward is attention grabbing by both parties in the hopes that the devs are swayed one way or the other. So for the moment all I can do is to point out the flaws in other proposals. 
As the game becomes more complex, all factors must be taken into consideration and quantified. This is very difficult and probably not practical. So before anyone goes on about game balance, please ensure you think of all factors rather than simply numbers of ships.
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Cruel Copinger
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Posted - 2006.04.26 07:06:00 -
[219]
Since the OP was mainly talking about empire space, here's my opinion on it. If u kill say 10-15 people in empire space, in a non-sanctioned war, then the army of that empire should start to defend the system better, regardless of sec rating. These people are working for the empire, and it should be in the empires interest to protect their systems. That's why he's not pirating out in 0.0, those empire do protect their systems.
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Dinique
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Posted - 2006.04.26 07:55:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Dexus
WCS are becomining a problem. within the last week, I can remember at least 6 out of 8 people having WCS. I even ran into a BC (cyclone) that had a full rack of WCS and was too cowerd to admit it (3 people were scambling him).
There has got to be some sort of penalty from using WCS.
HI DEXUS
I WILL HELP YOU WITH MY SMRTS.
OK, find the little market icon on the left side of your screen. Click it. In a few moments, you should be looking at the market screen. Now in the left pane, open the Ship Equipment folder, then open the Electronic Warfare folder. Look for warp disruptors.
Now buy 4x Warp Scrambler I. If you cannot afford it I suggest you review the tutorial bit about mining.
Now go to the Propulsion folder, and buy a Microwarpdrive for your ship. I would also suggest a NOS or two but I will leave that particular discovery up to you. Now if the items you purchased are not in the same system you are in, open your assets window. Find your stuff, right click on the station's folder and select Set Destination. Then undock, and click the auto-pilot button. Now sit back and watch your ship go to the system where your new equipment is located. Now might also be a good time to go do those dishes, or your mom could get mad and take away your power cable for your computer :(
Once you are docked, and this is the REALLY hard part so pay attention, you need to open the Fitting service panel inside the station. The button will be located on the right side of your screen. When the panel appears, open your Items Hangar. Now move your items hangar out of the way so aaallll your available slots on your ship are visible. Now, left click and drag the Microwarpdrive and Warp Scrambler Is to the medium slots of your ship (indicated with a -- symbol). Drag as many as you think you might need, remember for everyone of these you equip your intended victim will need to equip 2 stabalizers! So if you fit 4, your victim would need to equip 8 stabalizers! isnt that neat? OK OK now make sure there is a little green light next to all your modules, they have to be active if you want to use them!
Undock and go to a belt, and find a victim. Now select him in your overview, and click on the lock icon. Also click the approach button right after that, and activate that microwarp drive. As soon as you are within 7500M of the target, activate those scramblers. He won't be going anywhere. And if you EVER encounter someone flying a ship with 8 lows and 8 stabs, just equip your fifth and no one will ever be able to outdo your scrambling.
Feel free to send me some of the ISK you are bound to make pirating using these advanced techniques I just taught you to me. One can never have enough ISKies I say. And no, no other thanks is needed. I am here to help.
And while you apply your new found knowledge, think about the following: Why should scrambling be easier to do than defending against it? Why do you whine about it being unfair when the scales are tipped in your favour already? Was it because you didnt understand the basic concepts that, thanks to me, you now have mastered? Why does it bother you that a victim has some chance to get away from you? why does it bother you that you cant just warp in and do what you like? Is it because you only think of yourself and can only see this matter from your own heavily biased position? Or is it because simple addition and subtraction is too complex?
Warp core stabs and warp core scramblers have same fitting requirements, one is just low and other medium slot. And you get scramblers that have a strength of up to 3. Pirate Carebears are the worst :/
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B0rn2KiLL
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Posted - 2006.04.26 09:30:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Rasitiln
I have no problem with haulers mining ships and other non combat ships that have stabs. What I have a problem with is people flying around in PVP ships loaded to the teeth with stabs and haveing almost no risk when engadgeing in combat. Im not condeming people who has 1 maybe 2 stabs on a ship when they are out soloing thats fine. but having 8 on your geddon and pvping is just wrong.
dude, snig of all ppl should stay out of this lol. you guys are damn good, n i love ya, but, i gotta hand it to ya, after fighting you guys and some of the egghelende mob, you peopel sure changed my "immediate" approach towards WCs and "Game Mechanics".
---
new sig, Hijack it and ill eat u.
*Imaran hands B0rn2KiLL a fork - Come get some!11 
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Odet
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Posted - 2006.04.26 19:25:00 -
[222]
(Shin ra)
Even though our encounters have rarely been on a friendly basis Shin ra, I agree with you. The solution may not be as simple as many may think as everyday there are more complicated factors that take into play.
Although my views and or opinions are exactly that, they are my own views.
I still have faith that there can be a constructive argument and progress in this WCS matter as long as the flamers stay out and there are some that can actually advance in the debate.
I've not mentioned my own idea of a solution for the very reason that I cant think of an equally balanced solution for the hunter and the victim. So before i post an idea that i may think might work im just observing and reading until i believe i have a solution that may balance the issue properly for both parties.
As you said pointing out the flaws in others agrgument is probably the only way to help sway each argument. Which is exactly what I'm trying to do.
I dont expect to me the one determening the outcome with my views, I just expect to help in the debate we have ebfore us. So you know i do appreciate your views and arguments as in this thread theres seeems to be a genuine lack of constructive debate.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
Odet
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Posted - 2006.04.26 19:33:00 -
[223]
Edited by: Odet on 26/04/2006 19:33:47
EDIT: for spelling
To the person who posted the argument that a full rack of warpcores gimps your setup.
Well m8 look at it this way, if i CHOOSE to fit an insane armor tank it also gimps my setup, as i cant put any dmg mods in my lows and it gimps my dmg output.
Or if i fit all dmg mods in my lows my tank is gimpped as i CHOOSE to deal more dmg instead of tank.
Same as you CHOOSE to fit a full rack of wcs to fly 100% safe.
On another note there was some debate about also giving a stacking penalty to warps cramblers if there was a penalty on wcs.
Well honestly go for it make the max about of scramblers 3 for all i care.
Do you know of any viable setup on any ship that uses more then 3 scramblers anyway? No and thats because the slot layouts that are inplace on ships now, dont favor it like they do for warpcores.
Wont change a thing, but if it makes both parties happy, go for it.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
Qolde
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Posted - 2006.04.26 23:32:00 -
[224]
Warp Disruptor Bubbles are a great counter to WCS ships. Gate Campers and "pirates" who hunt in lowsec empire space are using the same tactic as a warp core stabbed PvP ship. They are taking a lot of the risk out of their actions. If you want to have more than a 25% chance at catching everyone who comes to your gate, then get a warp disruptor bubble and go to REAL lowsec. Until then, be quiet because a 25% chance at getting blown up at each jump through low sec is quite high for an industrialist. The penalty of warp core stabilzers on a Minmatar ship is 7-9% less damage, 15% less cargo, 24m/s less speed, or 1 less armor hardener per WCS. That's a lot considering I would not have the cap, armor, shield, or speed to deal with whatever battleship with jammers and tech 2 weaponry if I didn't have WCS. That 30 CPU it uses is precious on many ship setups, where I can't even fit tech one weapons on without a CPU or Powergrid Upgrade. You are asking for a 100% fight ratio in exchange for a ship that's going to cost its baseprice + whatever named mods are necessary just so I can kill whatever NPC rats I'm chasing. If anything is unfair, its the fact that pirates can tank sentry guns at all.
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Qolde
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Posted - 2006.04.26 23:48:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Odet
The amount of ingorance and trolls in this thread can start an enirely new forum.
If you're going to post make it constructive and not a "boohoo whiners". explain why you think that way.
For those of you that see no problem with being able to fit 7 wcs on a ship and have no real penalty(a poor setup isnt a real penalty its your own choice), theres no hope for you, dont bother posting your trash and flames here and let the grown ups have a discussion.
Moving on....
Like all modules in eve there are penalties for adding many to your ship.
-Damadge mods after installing 3 they are nearly usless.
-nanofibers you end up with no hull hp after placing too many.
-etc.
So how is it balanced that you can fit a full rack of wcs with no penalty?
so you argue that the hunters should fit more scramblers?
or that the hunters should use bubbles?
or interdictors?
I'll use my own personal experiences for an example here.
A while ago we planned to enage a group of 3 Burn eden battleshipsand a few interceptors.
3x ravens =15 wcs + 15 multi specs + 2nos.
you need a bare minimum of 3 sthilettos with -6 scramble strength to lock them down, assuming your interceptors dont get killed before they get to them by their precision cruise, or get nosed to death and killed by drones while they're attempting to keep them locked down,or get target jammed and become utterly usless in the engament or dont get killed by their support intercceptors.
now that you know you need a small fleet of interceptors to only lock them down, lets move on to battleships.
You need atleast a bare minimum of 3 bs's to kill their 3 bs.
Again ssuuming you dont get target jammed and shot at for 100% damadge as there is no penalty for fitting all lows with wcs.
But now realistically speaking, to kill those 5 people(3 bs 2 inties)
you need atleast 8 interceptors (some full tacklers and some inty killers) just to get them lcoked down without getting completely and utterly destroyed.
Now you need about 5 or so bs to kill them fast enough while getting target jammed before they kill your inties and simply warp out.(this also assuming you get a perfect warp in using a covertops)
so lets see now you need a bare minimum of 13(or 14 with cov opsfor perfect warp in) people to even attempt an attack against 3 bs, while also expecting losses. That seem balanced to you?
You only need 1 interdictor, 1 HAC, and 3 BS, since their BS have gimped setups from all the WCS. and The interdictor and HAC can kill the inties
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Odet
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Posted - 2006.04.27 00:08:00 -
[226]
And how long do you think that interdictor will last vs those 6 heavy nos and precision Cruise and drones and the interceptors?
I dont know if you've ever flown a hac but, any bs with a heavy nos utterly destroys a hac's cap. Now imagine 6 heavy nos. How usefull will that hac be now? After they insta pop that interdictor your hac will pop in about 1 volley from those ravens.
Now your 3 bs, how usefull will they be if they cant shoot because they are being target jammed non stop?
care to rethink your argument?
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
Gordan Freeman
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Posted - 2006.04.27 00:08:00 -
[227]
All I can say Odet is that there is prob noone that can put it better then you... That is exactly the problem.. You hit the issue right on the head.
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Odet
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Posted - 2006.04.27 00:11:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Gordan Freeman
All I can say Odet is that there is prob noone that can put it better then you... That is exactly the problem.. You hit the issue right on the head.
thank you for your compliment.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
welsh wizard
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Posted - 2006.04.27 01:47:00 -
[229]
Something has to be done, it's getting to a point now where we can't get a fight without a dictor...
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Tasuric Orka
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Posted - 2006.04.27 01:52:00 -
[230]
Ah quit yer whining about EW, equipping EW really gimps your setup, and its all based on chance. Just because YOU want to line up in battle at a pre-set distance using "normal" weapons doesnt mean we want to do the same.
________________________________________________
I survived Veto and all i got was this lame sig. |
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Odet
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Posted - 2006.04.27 01:55:00 -
[231]
This is a debate about wcs..... if you would like to debate EW with me, start a new thread. I'll be happy do debate it with you.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
Odet
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Posted - 2006.04.27 02:42:00 -
[232]
Originally by: Qolde
Warp Disruptor Bubbles are a great counter to WCS ships. Gate Campers and "pirates" who hunt in lowsec empire space are using the same tactic as a warp core stabbed PvP ship. They are taking a lot of the risk out of their actions. If you want to have more than a 25% chance at catching everyone who comes to your gate, then get a warp disruptor bubble and go to REAL lowsec. Until then, be quiet because a 25% chance at getting blown up at each jump through low sec is quite high for an industrialist. The penalty of warp core stabilzers on a Minmatar ship is 7-9% less damage, 15% less cargo, 24m/s less speed, or 1 less armor hardener per WCS. That's a lot considering I would not have the cap, armor, shield, or speed to deal with whatever battleship with jammers and tech 2 weaponry if I didn't have WCS. That 30 CPU it uses is precious on many ship setups, where I can't even fit tech one weapons on without a CPU or Powergrid Upgrade. You are asking for a 100% fight ratio in exchange for a ship that's going to cost its baseprice + whatever named mods are necessary just so I can kill whatever NPC rats I'm chasing. If anything is unfair, its the fact that pirates can tank sentry guns at all.
To the people who mentioned bubbles vs a rack of wcs...
Well I'll agree with you in the camp situation a bubble is a viable option. But what about the other 95% of the situations in eve?
You don exactly expect somebody to kindly ask their prey/enemy to simply sit still for 1 full minute while you anchor your bubble in a fight right next to them do you?
Bubbles have a 1 min achoring time
wcs are passively active non stop
Hate to burst your bubble.... but bubbles can not be used in empire or low sec.
And plz dont take out random percentages out from your behind and use them as facts. It's an insult to my intelligence.
Plz rethink your argument, go ahead and repost in paragraphs and full sentences while you're at it.
Also try uisng relevant staments to the argument you are trying to debate.
_______I podded a Dev and all I got was this lousy Implant_______
=This podding has been brought to you by Odet, the only way to fry.= |
Gordan Freeman
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Posted - 2006.04.27 19:40:00 -
[233]
I declare Odet the winner of the thread! Case closed CCp will nerf stabs! heh...
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2006.04.27 19:43:00 -
[234]
Fit more scramblers? 
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2006.04.27 19:43:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Odet
On a seperate note let's take a look at warpcores vs interdictors argument.
Warpcore Skill REQ:
navigation 1
Warp drive operation 1
(no activation or player skill involved)
VS
Interdictor skill REQ:
Frigate 5
interceptors 5
evasive maneuvering 5
destroyers 5
science 5
engeneirng 5
propulsion jamming 5
interceptors 4
electronics 3
spaceship command 3
navigation 2
graviton physics 1
(requires activations and player skill)
Pretty big difference.
Now the prices
warpcores:
10k
(can be used in empire)
VS
interdictors:
28 million
(cant be used in empire)
hmmm thats intresting theres also a pretty big price difference.
Now lets sum it all up:
the argument of some was "use an interdictor problem solved".
Not exactly buddy....
A tech 1 module that has bare minimum skill and fitting requirements and you say sure go counter it with this 28mill isk paper thin ship with insane skill requirements in the middle of an assault that it will be primary target.
anyone else see an imbalance?
make interdictors less skill instensive????
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Blind Man
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Posted - 2006.04.27 20:05:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Masta Killa
Fit more scramblers?
wtb sleipnir setup that can
a) tank sentries
b) fit more than one warp disruptor.
I'm tired of roasting some big bad pirate in a raven then having him warp off.
Passari will never be safe again |
K'reemy G'udness
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Posted - 2006.04.27 20:16:00 -
[237]
Jesus F'ing Christ.
If somebody in a mutual pvp fight warps off using WCS, you've won the fight. It's like a dog showing it's neck and declaring it's submissive. No you don't get a corpse or a killmail, but so what? WCS whines 4TL.
---
Stolen from Malka: ♥ |
Gordan Freeman
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Posted - 2006.04.27 20:34:00 -
[238]
Its not just about 1v1's its also about piracy or 0.0 combat.
Passari will never be safe again |
Moghydin
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Posted - 2006.04.27 22:04:00 -
[239]
I remember WCS whine threads since I've started playing the game. I didn't realize the reason behind that then and I still don't get it. What's the problem? Low slots are valuable for any ship. Scarificing them for WCS undermines that ship combat ability. WCS can be used for tactical manuevering in battle. It can be used by travellers to evade attackers. And again, if someone warped off in 1 vs 1 - you've won.
Btw, OP's proposal about WCS being active at more than 150km off structures... c'mmon, get serious
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Fatima Nefestis
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Posted - 2006.04.27 22:24:00 -
[240]
I still reckon that the most effective 'quick fix' that wouldn't require a wholesale rebalancing of the system would be for fitted WCS to prevent the activation of warp disruptors. Let those who want to run, run, let those who want to aggress, aggress, but don't let people aggress while they're also carrying a 'get out of aggression free' card in the form of a fat rack of stabs.
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