there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to

Black ops . . . /thread

Black ops . . . /thread

Marauders . . . //thread//

Marauders are actually a viable upgrade. One can argue the cost is questionable & that they could be better designed, but the ship itself is a decent step from their T1 cousins now.
They also don't have poor resists, the T1 BS have identical resists to all T1 ships. Only the T2 ships have lower resists.
Sig & Speed tanking can be countered by TP's & Webs. So when you need 'in your face' brute force tanking, the BS does it.
They also have huge range when you consider snipers, large DPS compared in most cases to other subcaps.

So.... that's why people use them.

They were buffed? When?

No - how would I? I'm a noob.

On paper, they look like the T1 BS - just with worse DPS and EHP and the ability to fit a very short range portal limited to few ships.

What's that great black ops stuff you do?

You're a noob, never experienced battleship stuff (mauraders, null anomaly ratting, black ops, incursions, etc) yet you say they are bad?

Here's the wiki, start reading it and come back when you're a tad bit more educated.

So what's the point?

You're wrong. I never said they were bad, I asked why people fly them.

So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 BS to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?

Those are facts that I came up with due to reading about BS which made me wonder why people fly them before I invest time and money into flying them.

Here's the Wiki, it might help.

...but thanks for letting me take part in your rich experience - it has proven to be very constructive for this thread :).

So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?

Those are facts that I came up with due to reading about BS which made me wonder why people fly them before I invest time and money into flying them.

I don't know how you define constructive . . . but ok I guess.

It was constructive because your argument in your original post to this thread appeared to claim that the power of black ops itself were enough to justify all the weaknesses to the BS class as a whole as indicated by your 'end thread' comment.

You claimed I said they were bad, which I never did - I stated some facts about BS I've researched which discouraged me from training for them.

I'd call your posts very constructive due to the impressive display of how people contributing nothing useful to a question and venting nothing but hot air make fools of themselves.

What you mean trolling? Yea that's what we do here in General Discussion. If you want a serious answer go ask in the new player forums.

They're only useful for two things. Shooting red squares and as disposable fleet ships due to insurance and range projection.

Point me to the post where I even mentioned the word trolling, please.

I'd call your posts very constructive due to the impressive display of how people contributing nothing useful to a question and venting nothing but hot air make fools of themselves.

Oh - and on a side note, trolling is prohibited on these forums...

Yep you are new here.

Indeed

That said, I wish you all a good and happy 2014!

So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?

I've often wondered why a battleship has slower lock-on times than smaller ships, especially considering that their signal strength is higher.

So ... bigger ship = more sensors = more sensor strength but bigger ship = more sensors = slower lock on-time?

I know that reality tends to take a back seat to game balance, but that little "feature" is really breaking my suspension of disbelief.

Yes, I can see how targeting a bigger ship would take less time than a smaller ship, after all it has a larger signature radius. But then adding more penalties to this by giving bigger ships crap lock on times is too much.

I've often wondered why a battleship has slower lock-on times than smaller ships, especially considering that their signal strength is higher.

So ... bigger ship = more sensors = more sensor strength but bigger ship = more sensors = slower lock on-time?

I know that reality tends to take a back seat to game balance, but that little "feature" is really breaking my suspension of disbelief.

Yes, I can see how targeting a bigger ship would take less time than a smaller ship, after all it has a larger signature radius. But then adding more penalties to this by giving bigger ships crap lock on times is too much.

So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?

It's a step from their T1 counterparts - agreed - but the T1 counterparts are atrocious.

T2 have lower resists? Thats new to me.

Sig & speed tanking can be countered with webs and TPs - yes - but BS come perma webbed and TPd right out of the box, at any range and navy BCs have higher EHP.

I agree on the range, but whilst EFT DPS look kind of 'meh' the actual applied DPS is poor due to their guns sig resolution and poor tracking.

Battleships meant to be flown in supported fleets and not very strong solo. Wonders never cease...

Because they will rip apart a fleet of cruisers in 10 seconds flat. BS on its own is shockingly vulnerable. A few BS with logi support are an impressive force - the alpha alone will instapop most targets if the fleet is being flown properly by disciplined pilots. Frigates are not usually a threat, the BS can just warp off/gate jump away/microjump out of the way. Against bigger stuff like fast hacs, etc, well that's what the logi is for, and the BS has a huge, huge buffer tank. Every ship has a function in Eve. Every single one has a niche.

No. This is so wrong lol. A cruiser fleet will rip a battleship fleet apart. If its T3 cruisers the T3's will have bigger buffer tanks than the battleships + will have vastly increases speeds, vastly reduced sigs, much more cap and will apply 100% of their damage.

The battleship has no function other than cheap fleet fodder or ranged combat fleet. There are much better options like T3 and HAC fleets they simply cost more. Take away the insurance away from the battleship and it would only ever be used for sniping.

No. This is so wrong lol. A cruiser fleet will rip a battleship fleet apart. If its T3 cruisers the T3's will have bigger buffer tanks than the battleships + will have vastly increases speeds, vastly reduced sigs, much more cap and will apply 100% of their damage

And yet the legion fleets got torn apart in the Fountain war by mega fleet.

Doesn't really say much because the T3 fleet was out numbered 3 to 1, plus the Domi's had a pretty good sized logistics fleet along with them. Of course they are gonna eat up the T3 fleet with that much help and support.

If its T3 cruisers the T3's will have bigger buffer tanks than the battleships.

T3s are irrelevant when discussing ship balance. Wait until they are nerfed and then we can see how they compare to BSes (they won't lol).

T3s are irrelevant when discussing ship balance. Wait until they are nerfed and then we can see how they compare to BSes (they won't lol).

I just know CCP is going to think "jack of all trades" when looking at T3, and that's probably what the first balance pass is going to look like.
They don't seem to get the point that this is a ******** way to balance a ship (see: Gnosis, and the Nestor proposal) because people don't use ships that can do everything okay, they use ships that can do things really well. Nobody uses T3s because they can do a lot of things, they use them because they do specific tasks really well. If any given task a T3 can do is done better by another ship, people will simply fly that ship instead.
T3s are ubiquitous because they can be configured to do a lot of things really well (but not at the same time). This needs to be preserved, while ensuring that they don't trample on roles taken up by other ships.

Let's not pretend we know anything about what the T3 rebalance is going to look like.

I've seen pictures which give quite a clear indication of what the rebalance will look like. It had T3 Cruisers and Navy Cruisers right next to eachother.

So we should ignore an entire class of ship currently in game

Also putting T3s on par with navy cruisers is idiotic.

hmmmmmm

So we should ignore an entire class of ship currently in game that directly competes with battleships based on a possible future nerf the details of which we know absolutely nothing.

I guess we can ignore the whines from Goons regarding slowcats since they're irrelevent because one day there may be a nerf of drones and drone assist.

Thanks for clearing that all up.

Edit: damn beaten by a goon ^^

How come? The way I see it, T3s are probably going to become a cheap alternative to T2 cruisers while offering better performance than T1s. People might complain about the T3 skill training thing, but it's still easier to train a T3 than it is to train all specialised T2 ships. I can't say exactly what is going to happen, but I feel they're probably going to end up as a stepping stone between T1 ships and specialised T2 ships while retaining their versatility for fittings (plus I think there was something about refitting in space and replaceable rigs idk).

Well that just goes back to what you were saying about speculations. With the versatility for roles and fittings, maybe even T2 trained pilots will find unique roles for T3s. Not only that, but I imagine T3s will come down in price to be closer to faction cruisers, so that would make them desirable to T2 trained pilots if it should turn out that way.

So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?

What is your subcapital counter to a fleet of sentry dominixes supported by remote repair?

(20k damage vs Ishtar / Tengu 1k or less) as well as damage application (BS Torps or Cruise (bad) vs Tengu HAM (good) or Ishtar Sentry (excellent), mobility, cloakability (lock time nerfage)).

So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?

It's a step from their T1 counterparts - agreed - but the T1 counterparts are atrocious.

T2 have lower resists? Thats new to me.

Sig & speed tanking can be countered with webs and TPs - yes - but BS come perma webbed and TPd right out of the box, at any range and navy BCs have higher EHP.

I agree on the range, but whilst EFT DPS look kind of 'meh' the actual applied DPS is poor due to their guns sig resolution and poor tracking.

You're supporting your point about battleships with the most overpowered subcapital fleet composition there is.

I do agree on the comments above about the current proposal for the Nestor.

It looks like being a dogs breakfast abortion of a ship that does lots of stuff semi OK but not all at the same time and nothing well.

Your kidding right? It looks incredible. Just think about how incredible RR domis are for a moment. Now do that with a Nestor. Invincible small gangs. You could tank a 20 man gang with two Nestors. Just saying. Plus, if they're anything like the other SoE ships they will have a giant cargobay so your not going to run out of cap boosters any time soon.

Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

Battleships are powerful enough, people simply are not using them well

1 vs 1 ships are not designed to fight outside their class for the most part. And battleships are specifically vulnerable to smaller ships. So by going '1v1 a cruiser can beat a BS' you are deliberately setting them up in the worst possible position.
Battleships are a fleet vessel and are meant to be used as such. And in that role they have a number of useful positions.

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).

So BS align, move and warp the slowest of all subcaps, they have have poor resists, a huge sig radius, are outtanked by pretty much everything when factoring in sigtanking, speedtanking etc, their guns have have terrible signature resolutions, track shockingly bad, there is not a single viable T2 B2 to advance to, there's no single cov ops variant available despite all the other drawbacks and they're the most skill intense and most expensive T1 subcaps there are.

So what's the point?

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).

Lots of EHP, lots of damage, lots of range.

BS aren't ownmobiles, and they shouldn't be, but there are some jobs that nothing else will do.

Your meticulous commitment to exposing your ignorance is, in it's way, quite inspirational.

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).

BSs are not junk or crap, they are big, slow, heavy and absolutely clumsy, but for that they get the best dps and the best tanking of all subcaps.
At least they are supposed to, if they do not then it's a problem.

Battleships are a fleet vessel and are meant to be used as such. And in that role they have a number of useful positions.

1v1 is now how you compare ships. Otherwise a tempest can defeat almost any ship smaller than him by sheer power of neuts combined with no cap usage guns. That altoguh doe snto make the temepst less horrible in real applications.

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K

Why are you passive tanking a ship that has an innate advantage when active tanking?

Theyre both buffer tanked. You realise the Proteus has a sub for buffer tanking and its tank is bigger than a battleships when fitted correctly. Foolish to active tank a Proteus imo.

No. Theyre junk. As I detailed in that other thread with actual real data vs your personal opinion.

You may think your Mega or Raven performs well but thats just your fleetmates picking up your slack. And fleets are useless for any useful comparison. As I have stated before, I could take any ship into a fleet fight if I had overwhelming numbers on my side and do well.

The only useful comparison is a one vs one comparison. The numbers clearly show BS as crap when compared to other subcaps. Your anecdotal "I blew up some newbs in my blob in a a raven with rockets therefore battleships with rockets are fine" is nonsense.

Also some battleships are fine, but only because they a) use a non large weapon system and can assign that system to a non battleship controller b) have bonuses which are non battleship type attributes (sig reduction, speed, agilty, tracking).

The mega, in it's nature as a Battleship, has a massive advantage being active tanked. There is no way, you can fit a Proteus to solo a propperly fit mega. Passive tanked Battleships are old hat, and only work now with on-grid logistics. Fit a web and scram to that mega, a MJD, and an active tank and there is nothing a proteus can do on it's own to win. It can escape, sure, and the Mega won't be able to catch it, but the opposite is also true. If your going to sit within web and scram range of a Mega, your going to die. Stray out of scram range, and you can't pin a mega with a MJD.

The natural advantage of a Battleship in active tanking, is that it has a large cargo bay for cap boosters, a natural buffer (that you don't need to add to) for some leeway in your active tank, and lots of slots. Plus, it doesn't rely on moving to keep it's tank up, unlike anything smaller that will explode almost instantly the moment it stops moving. Change the Mega for a Hyperion and the effect is massively exaggerated.

Each to is own. In any case the point is that for a proper comparison of ability one has to measure the same things. You don't measure a Proteus buffer tank vs a Mega active tanking or you get nonsense data.

No you dont compare by fightng them you compare by ability.

Lock times

Mega 118 : with sebo 180 : with 2 sebo 270
Brutix 250 : with sebo 400
Thorax 350 : with sebo 550

EHP
Mega 118K
Proteus 135K

DPS
Mega 1000 : applied to cruiser 450
Proteus 900 : applied to cruiser 900

Real comparisons 1 v 1

Its a problem then because they dont. You would think they'd have the best tank but no they dont. You would think they'd have the best damage but no, they dont. They dont do anything best except. . . Yeah nothing. Even a Domi is beaten at overpwered subcap killing with sentries by carriers lol.

You thought it was badly fitted because you're inexperienced with the Mega. Sitting in blobs with a mega doesn't give you experience.

You thought it was badly fitted because you're inexperienced with the Mega. Sitting in blobs with a mega doesn't give you experience.

The mega is a gang based ship. It shines with five man gangs to two thousand man fleets and is highly adaptable. You used none of its strengths and threw it into a gang that would have killed any subcap quickly. You chose the wrong ship for the wrong job, fitted it badly and chose the wrong target.

Theyre both buffer tanked. You realise the Proteus has a sub for buffer tanking and its tank is bigger than a battleships when fitted correctly. Foolish to active tank a Proteus imo.

The mega really is a pretty terrible small gang BS. Your much better of with a Domi, or (optimally) a Hyperion if your going to 1 vs 1. So Inf really has pitched one of the best solo (I prefer the Legion, but I wouldn't say one were that much better than the other) T3s against one of the worst solo Gallente BSs.

Hyperion is a good solo ship but the mega does well in small gangs as it can be very agile and fast for a battleship and packs a massive punch with great tracking. Even before the BS and blaster changes I was roaming around in small gangs of 5 to 15 people.

Your amazing 60 kills in your career , from wich 16 are pods , 4 barges , 2 rookie ships, 4 industrials, 2 shuttles and 5 frigates do not igve you as well much room to talk about your "EXPERIENCE".


You clearly are very very bad at PVP. Therefore your capability to annalyse what ship is good or not is incredibly limited.

I've seen wonderful things done with fast agile Battleships, but I just can't get on board with it myself. Never suited me. I think I prefer to be flying something smaller if I want to kite. Also, when I say small gang I usually mean about 5, or less. Since the Talos was added, I can't think of a good enough reason to use a Mega over it's cheaper faster (if significantly squishier) cousin.

It definitely can work, but when I weigh up the options I inevitably end up flying something faster and cheaper that does the same job. But then I am stingy with my fits.

I think a lot of this debate is around other ships....

I don't really think BS's are too weak.

I think T3's and certain other specific smaller ships (Ishtar comes to mind) are too strong and need to be nerfed.

Nah its not that they are too weak. Its that they have been crippled by successive buffs to smaller ships over a 10 year period. If you do a proper comparison instead of the Baltec "they're fine because I kill people with them when I'm blobbing a gate" its clear they're not fine.

Nah its not that they are too weak. Its that they have been crippled by successive buffs to smaller ships over a 10 year period. If you do a proper comparison instead of the Baltec "they're fine because I kill people with them when I'm blobbing a gate" its clear they're not fine.

As with most of the opinions I've seen you have here, this one is very short sighted. Battleships (like local, cloaks, timers and all the other things you complain about) exist the way they do for very good reasons, reasons you always fail to take into account.

Battleships are the way they are now because if they were stronger as individual ships, no one would fly anything else. I sure as hell wouldn't. As it is now, if you want cruiser speed you use a cruiser, if you want BC lock times you use a BC, if you want to truly "solo" you use a smaller faster ship, BS are better in gangs/fleets with support etc etc.

Your opinions tend towards "Infinity wants so it's good" (and then you try to rationalize things to get them to fit).

Quite frankly,if the question is "who should we listen to", if the choice is the goon guy who is FAMOUS for flying megathrons (to the point of having an official fleet composition named after him) or the guy who shield tanks a proteus...well, Baltec wins.

Ughh.... I hate agreeing with Jenn.

:) Not everything you read on the internet is true. Perhaps check BC instead. Might also be interested to know that data was not always pulled from the API. For 4 or 5 years it wasn't posted unless it was manual posted. You'd have to be stupid to do that. Mega used to be my number one ship for PvP actually.

the goon guy who is FAMOUS for flying megathrons (to the point of having an official fleet composition named after him)

And does he have some tips to share about mega fitting/piloting ?
Because last time I used mine It felt a little underwhelming, so probably I do something wrong but I don't know what.
For example, does the mega need a specific Weapons Upgrade level to start showing its usefulness and if yes then why ?

If you trained [insert ship name here] before AWU V then go back and train AWU V now.

The most important thing is practice.

If you trained [insert ship name here] before AWU V then go back and train AWU V now.

Sooo, I will wait to have a little more income before really flying it, just in case I have to replace it after things happen during "practice".


What, everyone must absolutely aim for a maraudeur, it's the new hype ?
You're a hobo if you don't have one ?

Now let's consider why people fly SB

Ships are balanced around having ADV weapons upgrades V. IF you dont have it and is forced to limit your fittings, then you cannot complain of the power of your ship.

Anyway, to use a battleship in PVP you should have at LEAST 15 M sp. Before that you shoudluse smaller ships for PVP

No. This is so wrong lol. A cruiser fleet will rip a battleship fleet apart. If its T3 cruisers

I don't have a problem with the fitting, I find that large railguns are really not an improvement compared to medium ones.
You exchange more range for less tracking speed and the dps is near the same, it looks more like a sidegrade than a direct upgrade power-wise imo.

And actually I don't do PvP, I first need a proper income to pay for when I will get podded.

Ships are balanced around having ADV weapons upgrades V. IF you dont have it and is forced to limit your fittings, then you cannot complain of the power of your ship.

Anyway, to use a battleship in PVP you should have at LEAST 15 M sp. Before that you shoudluse smaller ships for PVP

I really used to enjoy flying BS's due to the high tank and ability to really manage a lot of different aspects of the ship such as cap, reps, ewar, neuts, flights of drones, shooting etc all at once. You also have to think ahead a lot more with a BS due to the time it takes to align and how the battle space is progressing. (I'm talking more small gang stuff here not big F1 fleet stuff.) Probably why the Domi has always been a favorite of mine. While some of these options exist in the smaller ships I find with the BS you tend to live long enough to really fight the entirety of the ship.

But honestly, since the warp speed changes...my enjoyment of these ships have plummeted. If the fight is 1-2 hops away I'll still jump in one but otherwise staring at the screen for minutes watching the ship warp bores me to death. So I just don't enjoy it much anymore. My time is limited, I'm not going a long ways looking for a fight in null anymore in something so slow.

Sad really.

So it can be summed as
Battleship have very good and defined roles.
Other ships are in those roles for now.
Later those roles will be better fulfilled by BS due to the nerf bat of such sweet holy crushing that only a French Icelandic team with bound demons will be able to wield it comes into play.
At which point we will continue to be dominated by fleets of lolnope to your ship for a longer period of time.
And through all this the gnosis will still be superior to everything.

What if I told you Marauders can solo certain C5 sites, which are very profitable?

Have to agree with this. This is my exact experience as well. I've been trying to fit my Rokh to do level 4s, but so far I haven't been able to get it to any decent dps using hybrid rails. My BC Ferox does almost the same dps as a full fitted Rokh in EFT. So for now I'm sticking to doing level 3s since I'm clearly doing something wrong, or trying to get the wrong ship (Rokh) ready to do level 4s, it might not be possible at all, and I might have to accept that all my hybrid turret training has been a waste and I should start over in missiles and get a Navy Raven.

Red crosses don't count. They're simply a means to fund PvP not a way of measuring a ships ability.

Let me ask the following question:

Choose your favorite battleship.

Now tell me what it does better over your favorite BC, HAC and Cruiser of the same race?

(All tanks below are when the ship is completely stationary.)

Hyperion. It does 1k DPS, whilst running a 3k DPS Active tank.
Dominix. It can handle 3 remote reps, 2 transfers, a 1k DPS local tank, and 80k EHP and still pump out 500 DPS.
Armageddon. 2k DPS tank with 65k EHP, plus Neuts. Lots and lots and lots of neuts.
Scorpion. ECM + Tank. You wont find that anywhere else.
Machariel. Does everything better.
Vindicator. Kills everything better.

The list goes on. They're not my favourites, they're just examples.

GǪin fact, just skip the GÇ£favourite battleshipGÇ¥ part since it doesn't matter GÇö the answer to the second part is much the same regardless: better stopping power over better range with better tank backing it up.

Let me ask the following question:

Choose your favorite battleship.

Now tell me what it does better over your favorite BC, HAC and Cruiser of the same race?

Blaster Rokh is quite a beast especially with null

I actually do think battleships need a buffGÇö the warp speed changes did shaft them quite a lot.
They're darn fun, and look awesome.

I don't have a problem with the fitting, I find that large railguns are really not an improvement compared to medium ones.
You exchange more range for less tracking speed and the dps is near the same, it looks more like a sidegrade than a direct upgrade power-wise imo.

And actually I don't do PvP, I first need a proper income to pay for when I will get podded.

Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax

The cut off bit is the dps applied to the Thorax by the Rokh with 3 tracking computer II with tracking speed scripts and the Thorax webbed. Ironically with both ships scrammed but only the Thorax webbed the Rax is still faster than the Rokh by 40 mps.

You can clearly see how the the nerf to tracking and sig of weapons contributes to bring the Rokhs dps down from 1100 to about 50 to 100 dps while the Rax's damage is fully applied.

Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax

GǪif you royally screw up the fittings. What the hell are you doing to those poor ships?!

Have to agree with this. This is my exact experience as well. I've been trying to fit my Rokh to do level 4s, but so far I haven't been able to get it to any decent dps using hybrid rails. My BC Ferox does almost the same dps as a full fitted Rokh in EFT. So for now I'm sticking to doing level 3s since I'm clearly doing something wrong, or trying to get the wrong ship (Rokh) ready to do level 4s, it might not be possible at all, and I might have to accept that all my hybrid turret training has been a waste and I should start over in missiles and get a Navy Raven.

Compare the following, considering a lot of people believe nerfs to scan resolution is to prevent insta blapping smaller ships:

Tempest
Scan Res with 2 Sebo's = 300mm
Alpha = 11k

Tornado
Scan Res with 2 Sebo's = 700mm
Alpha = 11.5k

Both fit the same weapons, both do roughly the same damage per volley, both fit the same scan res mods however both don't get the same scan res boost. In fact even 4 sebo's don't get the scan res on the Tempest as the Tornado gets with 2...

This diminishing returns on mods is one of the reason BS suck so much. Fitting a high end mod on a battleship often equates to in actuality, fitting a civilian mod, in comparison to fitting that same mod on a smaller ship.

Seriously looking at the graphs showing each one shooting the same ship (i basically put them both shooting the thorax) and the Rokh beats the Thorax all the way plus the Thorax has a *LOT* more to chew through then the Rokh would

Its also completely screwed by a T1 Cruiser (Thorax). Rokh vs Thorax

The cut off bit is the dps applied to the Thorax by the Rokh with 3 tracking computer II with tracking speed scripts and the Thorax webbed. Ironically with both ships scrammed but only the Thorax webbed the Rax is still faster than the Rokh by 40 mps.

You can clearly see how the the nerf to tracking and sig of weapons contributes to bring the Rokhs dps down from 1100 to about 50 to 100 dps while the Rax's damage is fully applied.

GǪif you royally screw up the fittings. What the hell are you doing to those poor ships?!

Yes, larger ships lock slower than smaller ships, and module bonuses are relative to the base stats. This is to make so that locking times are (roughly) the same for same-class targets. How does this make battleships suck?

The fittings are not important. The only thing that is important is in all cases a Rax inside 2k of a Rokh, even if the Rax is webbed, and the Rokh has 3 T2 Tracking Comps with Tracking Speed Scripts is invulnerable.

As for fittings they're both fittings from a certain player turned current developer who is quite renowned for his pvp.

You clearly have no clue how to fight don't you? geez... you must be even worse than in the forums.

A cruiser MUST get within 10 km to fight a battleship, or the Battleship will MJD away and leverage on its range advantage. And if you get under 10 km.. your graphs do not look so cute anymore.

Of course 3-4 thoraxes will kill a rokh, but that is how eve is designed, numbers means a lot.
Yeah thats why I have a 6/1 KD completely solo record and why I went to war solo in null vs Tribe and beat them 22/1. Because I don't know to fight.

Now take your same cute throax agaisnt a tempest.. it wil be OBLITERATED , no matter what you try. The same rokh altough has a fair chance of killing the tempest.

The saddest thing is the OP basically only fly destroyers, so we do not even have the chance to in game go prove it to be wrong.

The fittings are not important. The only thing that is important is in all cases a Rax inside 2k of a Rokh, even if the Rax is webbed, and the Rokh has 3 T2 Tracking Comps with Tracking Speed Scripts is invulnerable.

As for fittings they're both fittings from a certain player turned current developer who is quite renowned for his pvp.

And how you GET there on a realistic scenario? And by realistic scenario I mean.... 3 v 3 for example. You really show your lack of understanding of combat whan you fix your mind into hypotetical 1 v1 scenarios where a cruiser jump into a battleship flying alone.. battleships flying alone outside pve are among the rarest things you will see. On a real fight, the battleships will stay roughly 10 km from each other.. so wherever you go you will receive 2 k dps on your head at near perfect range.

The only cruisers capable of matching battleship power are t3, and they are going to be nerfed for a reason.

The fittings are not important.

The only thing that is important is in all cases a Rax inside 2k of a Rokh, even if the Rax is webbed, and the Rokh has 3 T2 Tracking Comps with Tracking Speed Scripts is invulnerable.

As for fittings they're both fittings from a certain player turned current developer who is quite renowned for his pvp.

The issue is the inequalities between single ships.

Yes they are because if you want to make a sane comparison, equipping one of the ships to deliberately cripple its abilities means you've disqualified every conclusion made from that comparison. Since your graphs are displaying some very odd maximum and minimum damages, your conclusions areGǪ questionable.

GǪif you shitfit the Rokh, which is why the fittings matter. If not, then the thorax will die in short order.

Good. Then you can provide them.

You cannot make comparisons on a 2 v 1 or 3 vs 1 basis. Of course 3 battleships will beat 1 cruiser. The issue is the inequalities between single ships. The rest is taken care of naturally.

Re you that unable to read?

3 BS vs 3 cruisers. In fact even 3 battleships vs 6 cruisers!!!! What you think would happen to 6 thoraxes attacking 3 armageddons? or attackign 3 tempests?

Hint.. they would not fire for more than 12 seconds...

Re you that unable to read?

3 BS vs 3 cruisers. In fact even 3 battleships vs 6 cruisers!!!! What you think would happen to 6 thoraxes attacking 3 armageddons? or attackign 3 tempests?

Hint.. they would not fire for more than 12 seconds...

after actually going through and fixing up the graphs its clear to see that a blaster Rokh vs a Rail Thorax (which is what infinity is using) the Rokh is going to do more Dps from 3 kms to 20kms then the thorax. now that 2 kms area the thorax does win out with about 200-250 dps more but even looking at that increase in dps its not enough to change things because of the massive difference in tank

Nah I took off Kil2's rails and disruptor and put on ions and a scram. Rax is doing 550 dps.

after actually going through and fixing up the graphs its clear to see that a blaster Rokh vs a Rail Thorax (which is what infinity is using) the Rokh is going to do more Dps from 3 kms to 20kms then the thorax. now that 2 kms area the thorax does win out with about 200-250 dps more but even looking at that increase in dps its not enough to change things because of the massive difference in tank

No probably if you want anything but anemic dps from the thorax then you have to go asb shield fit and even then the thorax cant rep ****

Its not about 3 cruisers vs 3 battleships. Its about 1 battleships ability vs 1 cruisers ability.

Why are you using a Rokh to compare to a Thorax anyway? Why not something with similar role bonuses like a Megathron, which with dual webs, applies very healthy DPS to a Thorax from 0km-11km.

Why are you using a Rokh to compare to a Thorax anyway? Why not something with similar role bonuses like a Megathron, which with dual webs, applies very healthy DPS to a Thorax from 0km-11km.

Because its a random and possible encounter. But mostly because its shows how nerfs (tracking and sig of guns) contribute to completely neuter battleships vs even average opponents like a T1 cruiser.

I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance.

I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance.

Because its a random and possible encounter. But mostly because its shows how nerfs (tracking and sig of guns) contribute to completely neuter battleships vs even average opponents like a T1 cruiser.

I think any reasonable person would think that fitting 3 tracking computers and a web in exchange for its tank should allow a battleship to hit a cruiser at any distance (given optimal and falloff are ok). The issue is that modules do not give equal bonuses but diminishing bonuses base on hull size which makes modules for larger hulls with lower ratios almost pointless.

I haven't looked at the ratios but I imagine if you fit a tracking mod on a cruiser you get 2 times what you get if you fit the same mod on a battleship. And if its like sensor boosters and scan res, even fitting 3 tracking mods on a battleship likely gives less tracking boost than one of the same mod on a cruiser.

How is that logical? And for what reason is it even justifiable.

GǪexcept, of course, that the battleship in this scenario is not neutered, and that the T1 cruiser will die horribly.

Good news: it does. WellGǪ at any distance up to 2+ùfalloff.

Plus, remember the lack of tackle the BS has.

A blaster battleship can be easily pointed and kited by a long range cruiser/BC, and even as BS with good damage projection it can be very difficult to get into/maintain scram/point range.

Try to keep up Tippia. The graph I posted

NO! Its NOT possible! Or almost impossible 1 thorax jumping into a solo battleship is infinitely less realistic scenario than 3v3.

Yes this is not about 1v1 or 3v3, thius is about your complete and utter lack of PVP experience or understanding of the game and how people behave in this game!

You are the one theorycrafting! You are the one bringing examples taken from obscure holes!


If your scenario is remotely realistic why you do not have a single kill with a thorax against a solo battleship.