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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:01:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Sky Hunter
and by the way, point is, to give Typhoon a role!
Its the geekship of eve.
--- "Automatic override. Manual control overridden by autopilot. Please wait for operation to complete. You can override the automatic autopilot override in 28 seconds. Then you can make it wait" |
Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:08:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 18/03/2006 17:12:32 i thought the typhoon gets a serious rework and not just a "ok lets switch 1 crap bonus for another" kind of fix.
the typhoon has been the bastardchild of the bs class for ages and just by adding a different bonus to it you wont fix it.
there is 3 problems which hamper the typhoon a) minmataar are jack of all trades which nowadays need to be specialist of all trades to get the best out of their ships b) the typhoon gets the least out of each bonus because of its slot nature c) the typhoon has no real defined role yet since apart from a vamp or a pve 1400 setup everyone preferes the tempest anyways.
To fix these problems you need a new approach on the typhoon and a clear statement of what it is supposed to be / do. a) dont add a new weapontype which minmataars generally dont have a beef with. Projectiles are our guns for a reason so lets stick to them AND drones (if we need 2) and be done. b) revamp the slotlayout with either 6/2 guns / module slots (no missiles) or 5 / 3 guns / modules w. 1-2 missiles c) make the bonuses unique, maybe rof or dmg and a speed bonus ? imagine the typhoon with a 25% speed boost as an AC boat with a 6 gun setup... say rawr ?
Once uve done all that, consider some possible fittings and adjust pg and cpu reasonably close to them to make the ship fitworthy without wasting 3 lowslots on engineering upgrades.
bang u reinvented a typhoon which might be worth fitting and would prolly have the unique role to be "between hac and bs" with a speed of 180 m/s on bs 5 (without navi skills). Also would need to have a look at agility and mass so its inline with its speedyness. As otherwise it has the acceleration of a mountain comined with the agility of an anvil.
Advantages: closrange champ, can dictate range, very good for roaming. Disadvantages: limited flexibility (only guns and guns only with maybe 2 nos), no EW with the tiny medslots and lets not forget its still 1 of the more exspensive t1.
In return it will finally be a minamtar ship which uses -->purely <-- OUR core skills and no caldari badaboo.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:14:00 -
[63]
Missiles have ALLWAYS been Minmatar's secondary weapon. Saying that missiles are only caldari is rubbish.
Digital Communist> The Jin-Mei are probably more profficient in training for Tofu and Noodles than Spaceship Command |
Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:25:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Kcel Chim on 18/03/2006 17:26:50
Originally by: Maya Rkell Missiles have ALLWAYS been Minmatar's secondary weapon. Saying that missiles are only caldari is rubbish.
the problem with minmatar is that we not just have secondary primary but also tertiary stuff to worry about. Do u want to name another bs which has a bonus to only 4 of its slots ? and 4 to the others ? By adding such a bonus system it dictates that u can only make full use of the boni but forcing you hand in the highslots.
Every other tier 1 bs (and even tier 2) has a clear dedicated role. Domi = drones + hybrids (all bonus in 1 slotrelated weaponbranch, as drones are "ontop") Scorp = EW & 8 medslots Arma = laserboni
the only ship actually with split boni is the dominix but it got 3 bonis to make up for it and high ones at it. Not to mention that all 3 are viable for ALL highslots the domi has.
This means in short, if i fit my arma with 7 lasers i get all my 2 boni apply to 7 highslots for their full value (ill give you the 8th slot with a nos is boni less but any nos slot is that on tier 1 bs). If i fit my typhoon with 4 launchers and 4 guns i get 4 slots with 1 bonus and another 4 with the other meaning on average only 1 bonus applies to all 8 slots (even worse if i actually fit the famous nos).
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:31:00 -
[65]
Minmatar secondary being missiles. Oh yea, sure. I fit Nos in every 'secondary - non turret used slots'.
360k in missiles 4tw.
Originally by: Ithildin Q: Will the Gallente ship have lots of missiles? I think it's time. A: Die. You are not |
Wizie
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:34:00 -
[66]
While a Drone bonus sounds good on paper, just keep in mind that you only get 5 heavy and 5 med... or more mediums.... Kinda hurts the ship when your 1 load of heavy are dead.
I dislike a drone bonus, and I dislike the missile bonus. The ship needs a better bonus and a reworking of the turret/missile slots to make it good.
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:34:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Kcel Chim Edited by: Kcel Chim on 18/03/2006 17:12:32 i thought the typhoon gets a serious rework and not just a "ok lets switch 1 crap bonus for another" kind of fix.
the typhoon has been the bastardchild of the bs class for ages and just by adding a different bonus to it you wont fix it.
there is 3 problems which hamper the typhoon a) minmataar are jack of all trades which nowadays need to be specialist of all trades to get the best out of their ships b) the typhoon gets the least out of each bonus because of its slot nature c) the typhoon has no real defined role yet since apart from a vamp or a pve 1400 setup everyone preferes the tempest anyways.
To fix these problems you need a new approach on the typhoon and a clear statement of what it is supposed to be / do. a) dont add a new weapontype which minmataars generally dont have a beef with. Projectiles are our guns for a reason so lets stick to them AND drones (if we need 2) and be done. b) revamp the slotlayout with either 6/2 guns / module slots (no missiles) or 5 / 3 guns / modules w. 1-2 missiles c) make the bonuses unique, maybe rof or dmg and a speed bonus ? imagine the typhoon with a 25% speed boost as an AC boat with a 6 gun setup... say rawr ?
Once uve done all that, consider some possible fittings and adjust pg and cpu reasonably close to them to make the ship fitworthy without wasting 3 lowslots on engineering upgrades.
bang u reinvented a typhoon which might be worth fitting and would prolly have the unique role to be "between hac and bs" with a speed of 180 m/s on bs 5 (without navi skills). Also would need to have a look at agility and mass so its inline with its speedyness. As otherwise it has the acceleration of a mountain comined with the agility of an anvil.
Advantages: closrange champ, can dictate range, very good for roaming. Disadvantages: limited flexibility (only guns and guns only with maybe 2 nos), no EW with the tiny medslots and lets not forget its still 1 of the more exspensive t1.
In return it will finally be a minamtar ship which uses -->purely <-- OUR core skills and no caldari badaboo.
Chim i soo agree with you that i want to scream ,damm that is exactlly the phhon we matar pilots want .
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Koth Krakenworth
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:35:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Maya Rkell Missiles have ALLWAYS been Minmatar's secondary weapon. Saying that missiles are only caldari is rubbish.
Secondary maybe, optional? Always.
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes."
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Janus Ovellian
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Posted - 2006.03.18 17:39:00 -
[69]
I hate missiles. Much rather have some drones than missiles.
They're just so much cuter...
Interesting times await... |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.03.18 18:00:00 -
[70]
You can't fit weapons and tank to make the ships usefull. The Bellicose used to be a very nice cruiser until the missile fitting changes. Many pilots didn't fly it because missiles and drones had a bad start in EVE. Later they didn't care because they already loved their Stabber or Rupture.
One problem many pilots have with the missile are devs who forgot to compensate the Minmatar ships for the massive changes in the missile launcher fitting adjustment patch.
With the T2 skills, Minmatar ships are just falling behind the more specialized ships because you have to specialize in all three weapon systems and both tanking systems. And the very limited fitting choices are hurting you a bit more. --*=*=*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.18 18:03:00 -
[71]
Choose 2:
7.5% ac rof per level 7.5% launcher rof per level 5% drone damage per level
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Isabelle Velchan
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Posted - 2006.03.18 18:41:00 -
[72]
aw... can't we have all 3?
/me bats eye-lids at Tux
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Leandro Salazar
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Posted - 2006.03.18 19:02:00 -
[73]
Increasing the bonuses for split weapons to 7.5 should really happen. That would make the 4/4 layout at least remotely feasible (still a bit sucky though due to needing different damage mods). Aside from that, making the phoon another pure proj boat would be kinda boring imho, so I don't mind a missile bonus even if I like a drone one better. Of course, I don't care for pwnage (If I did I would be flying Caldari and not care at all about the phoon) but rather want to see an interesting ship.
___________________________________
Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? |
BlackDog Rackh'am
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Posted - 2006.03.18 19:14:00 -
[74]
Give me an oversized vagabond as the new typhoon any time. Mass reduction/agility boost,5 turret 3 missile slot layout, bonus to speed/guns. Maybe different med/low slot mix,lose some armor tank capability but gain a choice: shield tank with nanos and gyros in the lows,or armor tank with EW in the mids?
Originally by: Black Lotus I vote u for KIA spokesperson.
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Severa Crest
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Posted - 2006.03.18 19:39:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Sky Hunter
Originally by: Severa Crest
I like the missile bonus tbh.
How i'd like the Phoon - 5% missile rof, 7.5% proj rof, 5 missile points, 5 turret points, and lop off 5mill or so Kg from the mass (Min BS are way too heavy compared to the other races).
Im not fond of drones in their current form and a drone bonus would turn it into a pwning Domi clone that we don't really need.
The phoon setup you mentioned above wont stand a chance against other close-range BS out there.
Not enough hp to tank and surely not enough dmg to shoot down its target before you get shot down.
5% rof is the only damage bonus a raven has, yet does it suffer from a lack of damage?
OK the layout I suggested only has 5 missile slots, but you have 3 highslots left to fit guns or nos, and the ability to field a full set of heavy drones.
The drone bonus everyone wants is insane tbh - a phoon with a boosted drone bay and drone bonus will be too overpowered, too much grid and too many high slots. It will be the new domi once EW is adjusted.
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Chaotic Beauty
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Posted - 2006.03.18 20:01:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Severa Crest
Originally by: Sky Hunter
Originally by: Severa Crest
I like the missile bonus tbh.
How i'd like the Phoon - 5% missile rof, 7.5% proj rof, 5 missile points, 5 turret points, and lop off 5mill or so Kg from the mass (Min BS are way too heavy compared to the other races).
Im not fond of drones in their current form and a drone bonus would turn it into a pwning Domi clone that we don't really need.
The phoon setup you mentioned above wont stand a chance against other close-range BS out there.
Not enough hp to tank and surely not enough dmg to shoot down its target before you get shot down.
5% rof is the only damage bonus a raven has, yet does it suffer from a lack of damage?
OK the layout I suggested only has 5 missile slots, but you have 3 highslots left to fit guns or nos, and the ability to field a full set of heavy drones.
The drone bonus everyone wants is insane tbh - a phoon with a boosted drone bay and drone bonus will be too overpowered, too much grid and too many high slots. It will be the new domi once EW is adjusted.
Drones would be to powerful, but turning phoon into something that will have same missile damage, short of 1 launcher, but with possibility to cover that up with 3x large guns and 5 drones wouldn't be overpowered at all? Also add the 7 lows and smack, game gankship number one. TBH, phoon deserves something different, more unique. Don't turn in into a wannabe *Caldari* ship, only because you might have better ships for caldari general ships then minmatar general ships. It's a minmatar one, which should mean Large Projectiles, all the other BS for the races do use their race weaponry primarily. Why should the phoon be different and seem to belong more to a different race then it actually is?
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Tachy
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Posted - 2006.03.18 21:31:00 -
[77]
I had a dream last night about the tier3 Minmatar BS and the tier2 Minmatar BC. They had a bonus to target painting and one to mining yield, split weapon slots and enough drone capacity for 3 heavy drones, respective 4 medium drones. --*=*=*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Sarmaul
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Posted - 2006.03.18 21:32:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Tachy I had a dream last night about the tier3 Minmatar BS and the tier2 Minmatar BC. They had a bonus to target painting and one to mining yield, split weapon slots and enough drone capacity for 3 heavy drones, respective 4 medium drones.
omg we have the same nightmares!
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.03.18 21:43:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Tachy I had a dream last night about the tier3 Minmatar BS and the tier2 Minmatar BC. They had a bonus to target painting and one to mining yield, split weapon slots and enough drone capacity for 3 heavy drones, respective 4 medium drones.
That is not a dream ,that is a nigthmeare O.o .
The stats of both seem cool at least for now ;)
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Aversin
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Posted - 2006.03.18 23:08:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Aversin on 18/03/2006 23:09:43 Edited by: Aversin on 18/03/2006 23:09:01 Don't want to read all three pages so here's my idea
Since other bs have 2 bonuses that affect 6-8 of their high slots and the phoon has 1 bonus that affects 4 high slots and a second bonus for the other 4 high slots. say the raven it has 2 bonuses that effect 6 of its slots 2x6=12, the typhoon has 2 bonuses to 4 slots each 2x4=8. 8/12=67% so the typhoon's bonuses are only 2/3 as much as a raven, increase the 5%'s to 7.5% and you've got this 1.5*4+1.5*4=12 and that is equal, not even mentioning the extra amount of skills needed or the extra pg/cpu needed.
So I suggest this, make the typhoon a truely versitile ship.
Make it have a slot layout of 8/5/5 and give the typhoon a bonus (10%-15%) to shield boost and armor repair amount to make up for the balanced slots this would allow the typhoon to armor or shield tank and do it decent.
Then give the typhoon a hardpoint layout of 5 turret AND 5 missile, the tempest will still be the better gunboat since it has 2 gun bonuses, but with the 7.5% to RoF for missiles and turrets it would be like an enlarged cyclone.
Increase the pg to balance because there are 2 less slots for power grid upgrades, and leave the cpu where it is at. You would have a true jack of all trades ship. The typhoon would not be overpowered because it would STILL require more skills than any other bs to fly and it would have the same damage bonus as other bs, also this ship would be unique so when you run into a typhoon you'd have to wonder what he's fitted rather than guessing 4 nos 4 misc + armor tank and drones.
The tanking bonus would be a must with the suggested slot layout and would need to be tested, perhaps increased because the loss of 2 low slots would hurt it. Also consider a new model with it and who knows we might make a ship out of her yet =)
Originally by: Razner Cerizo They will never quit. The beatings will continue until morale improves.
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Leandro Salazar
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Posted - 2006.03.18 23:28:00 -
[81]
You lost me there somewhere Aversin... Are you suggesting 3 bonuses for the new phoon? Coz I am pretty sure that that will never happen. But the 7.5 instead of 5% for split weapons part makes a lot of sense. Maybe even to Tux?
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Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? |
Tachy
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Posted - 2006.03.18 23:34:00 -
[82]
The higher RoF for the guns still doesn't help the guns falling short in the tracking speed department. The soon to be gone optimal range bonus was a tracking bonus of sorts. The higher RoL for launchers definately isn't. --*=*=*-- Megadon CCP wanted a well known artist and celebrity to test the new font so it's approval would be well known. They got Ray |
Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.03.18 23:46:00 -
[83]
Imo... its role is to get up close and personal and smash stuff. It can do that with a missile RoF just fine.
However, what I wouldn't mind seeing :
7.5% RoF to Cruise and Siege 12.5% improvement to logistics drones per level
Honestly ACs on a phoon with only 4 are fine without any bonus and not using up ammo like water and being able to sustain your damage balances things out in the long run.
It even makes that shield hp to armor hp imbalance workable since... well... shield maintenance drones could help a ton. Talk about not even using a shield booster on it... thats a free mid slot to passive tank.
4 Projectiles, 4 Siege IIs
2 Large Shield Extender IIs, 2 Invun field IIs
3 shield power relays, 2 PDU IIs, 2 BCU IIs
Mix of Shield Maintenance AND combat drones
or you could go with your standard armor tank AND use a mix of Armor maintenance drones AND combat drones.
Versatility, and split weapon systems 4tw... if you have an imagination that is
Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.18 23:56:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Imo... its role is to get up close and personal and smash stuff. It can do that with a missile RoF just fine.
However, what I wouldn't mind seeing :
7.5% RoF to Cruise and Siege 12.5% improvement to logistics drones per level
Honestly ACs on a phoon with only 4 are fine without any bonus and not using up ammo like water and being able to sustain your damage balances things out in the long run.
It even makes that shield hp to armor hp imbalance workable since... well... shield maintenance drones could help a ton. Talk about not even using a shield booster on it... thats a free mid slot to passive tank.
4 Projectiles, 4 Siege IIs
2 Large Shield Extender IIs, 2 Invun field IIs
3 shield power relays, 2 PDU IIs, 2 BCU IIs
Mix of Shield Maintenance AND combat drones
or you could go with your standard armor tank AND use a mix of Armor maintenance drones AND combat drones.
Versatility, and split weapon systems 4tw... if you have an imagination that is
you cant use drones on yourself
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Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.03.18 23:58:00 -
[85]
small problem maintenance drones dont work on oneself
and no i dont want another minnie ship have a bonus like the minnie carrier ( 20% reduction in remote rep repair time )
I'd even take a target painter bonus instead that
Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.03.19 00:00:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Nafri
Originally by: Kaylana Syi Imo... its role is to get up close and personal and smash stuff. It can do that with a missile RoF just fine.
However, what I wouldn't mind seeing :
7.5% RoF to Cruise and Siege 12.5% improvement to logistics drones per level
Honestly ACs on a phoon with only 4 are fine without any bonus and not using up ammo like water and being able to sustain your damage balances things out in the long run.
It even makes that shield hp to armor hp imbalance workable since... well... shield maintenance drones could help a ton. Talk about not even using a shield booster on it... thats a free mid slot to passive tank.
4 Projectiles, 4 Siege IIs
2 Large Shield Extender IIs, 2 Invun field IIs
3 shield power relays, 2 PDU IIs, 2 BCU IIs
Mix of Shield Maintenance AND combat drones
or you could go with your standard armor tank AND use a mix of Armor maintenance drones AND combat drones.
Versatility, and split weapon systems 4tw... if you have an imagination that is
you cant use drones on yourself
bah what a crap system then... who cares about helping others... this is EVE and this is the Galnet.
Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.03.19 00:01:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Tiuwaz small problem maintenance drones dont work on oneself
and no i dont want another minnie ship have a bonus like the minnie carrier ( 20% reduction in remote rep repair time )
I'd even take a target painter bonus instead that
well I hadn't used the repair drones before... and yeah... that idea really sucks if you can't repair self.
Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Kaylana Syi
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Posted - 2006.03.19 00:11:00 -
[88]
I find TPs worthless on every ship I have put them on no matter what weapon system I used. Nothing beats SP in weapon systems and player skill to get around that dumb module. Its practically an MWD only counter and that doesn't really need it. Maybe with range it would be better, like you say, and it has potential since its a module that works for guns, missiles, and drones... but meh... I'd rather have a cap recharcher or a shield boost amp than a TP.
Originally by: "Oveur" I don't react to threats any better than you do
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Kcel Chim
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Posted - 2006.03.19 00:12:00 -
[89]
kaylana, not just that the "tanking" u suggest wouldnt work but may i ask how you close in or "hold" a target with your setup ?
The main issue with these threads is that ppl step up with certain setups they deem "right" for their choice of play and hence assume they need to be considered standard. As much as a ship setup like urs might rock your world with a cov op warpin point, a bunch of tacklers holding your hands etc joe random will still call it "teh suxx" cause he might be faced with other settings for his engagements.
The idea behind a "new typhoon" should be to create a starting point by giving it a role and from there the option to go different ways to cater ppls playstyles. This means in return that there should be no discussion about "a nos setup" or "a passive shieldtank setup" but instead about a role. In the sense "close and personal" or "joe sniperlovski" or like i suggested "roaming speed bs". After such a role is formulated tux should throw some fitting boni in the mix and then everyone can go and make his setups. Be it with nos, ew, shield, armor or even drones. Anything else will just lead to nothing and surely not increase the SHIP typhoon.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.19 00:13:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Elenia Kheynes
Originally by: Nafri Edited by: Nafri on 19/03/2006 00:08:07
Originally by: Tiuwaz small problem maintenance drones dont work on oneself
and no i dont want another minnie ship have a bonus like the minnie carrier ( 20% reduction in remote rep repair time )
I'd even take a target painter bonus instead that
TP bonus sounds cool, but the bonus is still with 7.5% very low.
A TPII with maxed skills give 37.5% sig increase on a normal ship and 51.5625% on a Huginn.
sounds cool, but isnt really great. Its basicly the difference between a stabber and a deimos.
Ohh, and the range is laughable as well. Target painting could be cool in some fights, but if you have to stay around 40km to be within optimal, thats just rofl
I wonder how many painters you need to bring the sig radius of a BS to 1000... then you could use rage torps on it... Then the huginn would have a use o,-
You sit at a PC, you should be able to do the math yourself. But since TP do stack nowadays you can only use 3 on a ship remotly effective.
Im pretty sure that TP only stack and not multiply like other EW, so you need 3 to get 800 sig on a BS, still not enough for the rage torpedos
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