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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:20:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 18/03/2006 06:22:17
Originally by: Tuxford It's not really a far off from being a good ship. The optimal range bonus is mostly wasted on it so we've changed it to launcher rate of fire. It still has that split weapon system you hate so much but you should be more satisfied with the damage output of it.
This ship will require more skills to fly than a Tempest.
Split bonus is not just undesireable, its unfair. Note that the split would then be, Guns/Drones/Missiles. Its just bad.
Please reconsider. There is a thread that is quite long where we tossed around several ideas. Try some of those, excluding ANY that create split weapons. You will just have to fix that 4-4 layout.
This is also bad for the Jaguar, but thats another story. Specilization wins all the time in games.
____ If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:49:00 -
[2]
phoon will be a nice ship with missile rof bonus ( and a few other fixes like switching shield/armour hp etc)
the only sour point is that are you gonna need about 2-3 years of skilling to fly the phoon to its potential
Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Foulis
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Posted - 2006.03.18 06:58:00 -
[3]
4x Siege + 4x Nos + Wicked armor tank and mwd isn't good? ---- I <3 Taranis
Cake > Pie - Imaran
Originally by: CCP Hammer Boobies
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:02:00 -
[4]
Switch shield HP to Armor HP.............
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:04:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Foulis 4x Siege + 4x Nos + Wicked armor tank and mwd isn't good?
I like how you think. Personally, I like any setup that makes heavy use of nos, especially if it's to run an uber tank.
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2006.03.18 07:11:00 -
[6]
who let that ugly Gallente face into a thread full of strong and pretty Brutors?
Originally by: Oveur ****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
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Koth Krakenworth
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Posted - 2006.03.18 08:19:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Foulis 4x Siege + 4x Nos + Wicked armor tank and mwd isn't good?
Oh, this setup *soo* makes use of the new bonus. In fact, it makes such a good use of it you still only use one of the two phoon bonuses. You will have zero use for the projectile bonus, great use for the ship, eh? I actually like to fly the same setup, but with large projectiles instead of sieges with drone backup. Does wonders for me too. Yet if you change one of the bonuses to missiles, all I'll recieve is just a slight nerf even if I actually prefer the *race* weapon above caldari's missiles. Makes a lot of sense? Not to me.
I agree with the threadmaker, don't split the phoons weapon systems up in 3 pieces, and especially not with 2 that both require *heavy* skilltraining. Give it a bonus to be used for something else then an other weapon system such as a navigation bonus, EW (like nos since this seem to be popular with the phoon), drones etc. Something that will not make it even a more jack of all trades and impossibility to train up for. I have 20m SP specialized in minmatar, yet no decent missile skills (which require an other 7-8m or so), because very few minmatar ships would ever require you to use missiles. Many have the possibility, an extra tool in the toolbox (and the toolbox is minmatars biggest strenght), but you can always avoid using this out-of-race weaponry if you don't want to. Making missiles a weapon that would be a heavy part of a minmatar BS would be silly, why the hell would I want to put 8m of SP into an other group of weapons just to give the phoon the same edge as people who only got 8m SP in one of the 4 weapon categories?
Sure, this bonus might help the average skill-low character who doesn't have decent skills in any of the weapon groups anyways, but why would you want to give the people who specialized in minmatar an other extreme load of skilltraining? Some people actually have high standards, they want the possibility to spend months in recieving extra high bonuses in their ships. But it's not possible if you need to spend almost an extra half a year in training just to make maximum potential of *half* of a ships weapon systems, and only for one of the race's ships. It's honestly just an other kick in the nuts to true minmatar pilots. While some ofcourse also have missile-skills along with projectiles, a great deal decided to run for projectiles only as well. Worked so far. But apparently, race specialization is just something that will never be possible for minmatar pilots anyways. Projectiles, drones, missiles, nowadays all extremly heavy in skill which they weren't during the time the phoon was first introduced. This bonus could have worked 2 years ago, but today it doesn't make sense for a lot of people with high skill standards. Heck, they might just as well introduce the other 2 weapon weapon systems as well and have wannabe cool minmatar pilots train everything in game to become good in their race of preference. People say that if you want to be good in minmatar, you need to specialize. But there's a limit to where specialization ends and all-round begins. By making a ship use 3/5 weapon systems, you are not making a ship that can be sensibly specialized in. Even new characters might want to get the most out of their BS, which will feel like a total impossibility for them, making them run for other ships instead. Why spend 2 years learning how to fly a phoon when you can spend 1 year becoming a king in a scorp or domi.
Vote missileskill for the phoon, vote for kicking down minmatar specialists who almost managed to stand on their feet!
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes."
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Spartan239
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Posted - 2006.03.18 08:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tiuwaz who let that ugly Gallente face into a thread full of strong and pretty Brutors?
Wizie is the only good looking brutor
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Nyphur
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Posted - 2006.03.18 08:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Tiuwaz who let that ugly Gallente face into a thread full of strong and pretty Brutors?
It's a mask, I swear!
Eve-Tanking.com - For the ultimate tanking spreadsheet and resources. |
Aloysius Knight
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Posted - 2006.03.18 08:58:00 -
[10]
i personly have been drooling over the change i love the idea of a split wep system as it alows for so many diffent setups then other ships
makes people think before having a go at ya "oh will he have all nos, or 4 auto 4 seige or 4 nos..." and so on
can't what for sisi to come bak online and for it to hit TQ
and to the guy whos so "hardcore minmater" why don't you have any missile skills, becuase if your so hard about flying minnnie ships then ud have missiles skills for typhoon ruppie all other minnie ships they have the slots for them as well
and you would really ahve to change the whole slot lay out and bonus if you droped the split wep system
and finaly all those for a 5th turret woopty ferking doo, it would still SUCK!!
MISSILE ROF BOUNS 4TW WWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE Haha can't touch this! |
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Percy Loudbottom
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Posted - 2006.03.18 09:12:00 -
[11]
90% of my pvp setups on the phoon that I really like are missile/nos setups. This change is good for that. Im not worried about not getting the second bonus applied to the DOT of my weapons anyways. That is hardly limited to the phoon.
Also, this will make my long range 1400/cruise pve setups (which actually work supprisingly well, for pve) a hell of a lot better than they are currently.
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Koth Krakenworth
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Posted - 2006.03.18 09:23:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Aloysius Knight and to the guy whos so "hardcore minmater" why don't you have any missile skills, becuase if your so hard about flying minnnie ships then ud have missiles skills for typhoon ruppie all other minnie ships they have the slots for them as well
If you had bothered to read the post, you would have read that no other minmatar ship, except ofcourse the stealth bomber, would *require* you to have badass missileskills to get most out of the ship. In all other ships, it's just an option, if you want you can always go 100% projectiles and still get most out of the ship. In the case of the new phoon however, only 15m SP or so in weaponry can make it at the same level as an other specialist in an other race. It's not fair having to learn 3/5 weapon systems while others require at most 2/5, if even that much. Only other exception I know of is the crazy Sansha Nightmare, but that is an highly optional ship and not a main ship of one of the 4 player races.
Amount of players that will be able to use a phoon at full potential are just a handful few compared to other races where specialists can pick whatever BS and apply all of their specialized skills to them.
This chance is no fair to specialists as it only gives them unhumanly much to train compared to others. But n00bs rejoice, with drone lvl 1, large projectile lvl 1 and torpedoes lvl 1 you'll have a ship with good damage output compared to any other race BS's you might fly! Too bad any specialist in any race will slaughter you
"It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems just with potatoes."
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Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2006.03.18 10:02:00 -
[13]
tbh after the changes the phoon is going to be best without nos,
imagine a full ac/torp loadout with t2 heavy drones coming at you,
you have torps that will hit at all ranges, drones that are good up to 40km away and ac`s from 0-20km, plus a fast battleship that is able to dictate range.
all this about split weapon systems isnt a curse, its the minmatar way, forget about the raw dps etc.. this ship is about variation and adaptability,
rejoice for we are minmatar etc... --------------------------------------------- Please resize your forum signature graphic to be smaller than 24,000 bytes in filesize - Jacques |
Vishnej
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Posted - 2006.03.18 10:07:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Vishnej on 18/03/2006 10:15:17 Edited by: Vishnej on 18/03/2006 10:09:52
Originally by: Imhotep Khem Edited by: Imhotep Khem on 18/03/2006 06:22:17 Split bonus is not just undesireable, its unfair. Note that the split would then be, Guns/Drones/Missiles. Its just bad.
Please reconsider. There is a thread that is quite long where we tossed around several ideas. Try some of those, excluding ANY that create split weapons. You will just have to fix that 4-4 layout.
This is also bad for the Jaguar, but thats another story. Specilization wins all the time in games.
I disagree, I think that a ship split between two or three different weapon systems can be the pinnacle of ship design - it's also the most difficult to get right. It takes strong bonuses, a good serving of stats, and the right slots.
Diversity is good. If you want a pure projectile ship, fly the tempest, if you want a pure missile ship, fly the ravenm and if you want a pure drone ship, fly the domi.
My plan for the phoon from months and months ago was to say "It has enough weapons, screw the damage bonuses," and put in some bonuses that allow you to use more than one or two weapons at once. +25% missile velocity and +15% falloff per level. This was before the T2 ammo types screwed up the equation a bit.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 10:08:00 -
[15]
Edited by: KilROCK on 18/03/2006 10:09:41
Originally by: Dexter Rast tbh after the changes the phoon is going to be best without nos,
imagine a full ac/torp loadout with t2 heavy drones coming at you,
you have torps that will hit at all ranges, drones that are good up to 40km away and ac`s from 0-20km, plus a fast battleship that is able to dictate range.
all this about split weapon systems isnt a curse, its the minmatar way, forget about the raw dps etc.. this ship is about variation and adaptability,
rejoice for we are minmatar etc...
You won't kill alot of tanks by just spitting out damage on a large numbers of battleships without nos.
Nos helps your tanking and unless you fit a rcu, i doubt you'll be able to fit 4AC,4 siege/Cruise, Cap injector dual large rep. That's a good tank and you won't last if you don't 'fit' a cap injector with that kind of tank on a pvp typhoon.
As for drones, it's 45km with scout op 5. + 3km Per level of Electronic Warfare drones. so that's 60km max.
On a side note. As much as i hate this change since i have bassicly no missile skills to bother wasting 4 highslots on them rather than nos (yea the usual torp 4 and support skills 3-4 but that's not 'specced')... This change might force me to train torpedos 5 and therefor... make the naglfar worth using over the moros. (which im training for rather than naglfar).
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Leandro Salazar
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Posted - 2006.03.18 10:58:00 -
[16]
Drone bonus instead of projectile bonus 4tw! Only two weapons systems needed to train anymore, and those obsessed with projectiles will just have to fly the Tempest, not like the phoon could ever do better with them than the tempy anyway...
___________________________________
Evacuate? In our moment of triumph? |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:02:00 -
[17]
Edited by: KilROCK on 18/03/2006 11:02:55 I want:
10% damage to Cruise/torps explosive missiles, 5% to others per level.
Bring it, har har
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Cilppiz
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:23:00 -
[18]
So whats the new role of Phoon then, being mixup of domi/raven/ac-pest, and still not being any better than even one of those?
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Nafri
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:28:00 -
[19]
Phoon still has just 1 bonus, compared to 3 the dominix gets and the 2 every other BS gets.
Cant we just make it 5% to missle/projectile ROF and 5% to missle/projectile Damage?
Then I might thinking about flying this bad excuse for a BS.
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Severa Crest
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:34:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Severa Crest on 18/03/2006 11:34:11 It still wont be worth fitting AC's, i say increase the proj rof bonus to 7.5%.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:36:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Severa Crest Edited by: Severa Crest on 18/03/2006 11:34:11 It still wont be worth fitting AC's, i say increase the proj rof bonus to 7.5%.
Actually, thats a darned GOOD idea. Megathron is getting 7.5% per level to tracking?
Hop hop, I want 37.5% on my tempest ROF!
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Sky Hunter
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:45:00 -
[22]
Typhoon with missle bonus is a dead ship in any kind of solo engagement versus any other BS.
4 autos + 4 nosfs >>>> 4 autos + 4 sieges\cruises in close-combat. Even if launchers are T2.
Not even talkin about countering small ships in it.
On top of that, afaik major part of any Minmatar pilots aint having 1:1 SP rate in both missles and gunnery.
Bonus is useless, no additional grid either! You cant even fit decent weaponary and semi-good tank to it.
I think ship will stay exactly as it was, everyone will maybe will fit 1-2 missle laucnhers but it still wont give the same result as other BS where 6 weapon slot used.
Why not add a falloff bonus to Typhoon? Let alone grid, but make bonuses like 10% to damage and 5% to falloff or 5% to damage and 10% to falloff?
Why not make it a dedicated close-range ship?
I just cant get it....
-=-
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:48:00 -
[23]
I wanted a falloff bonus -.- But what i want more is.. More armor than shield. A 5th turret would be nice but that would be overdoing it.
This bonus is nice. It gives caldari *****s a chance to use their uber missiles skills on typhoon with a bunch of nos! omg omg omg!
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:52:00 -
[24]
what a mess. We have only stuff in paper and everyone is saying "OMG SUX0R! SWITCH BONUS!"
Altho I agree that more grid + swaping shield hp for armour hp is also needed, why don't we all wait untill the damn test server is up to try out the new typhoon?
that said, TUX WE WANT THE DAMN TEST SERVER! ----------------
Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 11:55:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Grimpak what a mess. We have only stuff in paper and everyone is saying "OMG SUX0R! SWITCH BONUS!"
Altho I agree that more grid + swaping shield hp for armour hp is also needed, why don't we all wait untill the damn test server is up to try out the new typhoon?
that said, TUX WE WANT THE DAMN TEST SERVER!
There's something we call math Grimpak, Try it sometimes. It lets you see the viable setups and their DPS and their ability to be useful.
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Grimpak
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Posted - 2006.03.18 12:02:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Grimpak on 18/03/2006 12:02:49
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Grimpak what a mess. We have only stuff in paper and everyone is saying "OMG SUX0R! SWITCH BONUS!"
Altho I agree that more grid + swaping shield hp for armour hp is also needed, why don't we all wait untill the damn test server is up to try out the new typhoon?
that said, TUX WE WANT THE DAMN TEST SERVER!
There's something we call math Grimpak, Try it sometimes. It lets you see the viable setups and their DPS and their ability to be useful.
math and me don't get allong i'm a human sciences student
plus I prefer to experience the damn thing first hand and not using theories and such. maks the whole thing more funnier ----------------
Originally by: Abdalion Shoot him ingame if you don't like this person. If you do like him, go mine veldspar with him.
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Pesadel0
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Posted - 2006.03.18 12:03:00 -
[27]
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Severa Crest Edited by: Severa Crest on 18/03/2006 11:34:11 It still wont be worth fitting AC's, i say increase the proj rof bonus to 7.5%.
Actually, thats a darned GOOD idea. Megathron is getting 7.5% per level to tracking?
Hop hop, I want 37.5% on my tempest ROF!
Mega is getting 7.5% ROF?.
But i agree with the OP i'am minmatar only and this bonus sucks ,yeah it could be good on a minmatar/caldari specialist ,but there are pipol that are committed 100% to their projectilles :).
As for notion that we need to train missiles to be efective?Hum that is simply not true i have 20M skills(6.5M in gunnary projectilles) and only 500K in missiles and i get along ok just fine .
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operated
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Posted - 2006.03.18 12:05:00 -
[28]
HMM sure typhoon is a underdog ,and any other bs might be better , but once you get loads of skills typhoon becomes a beast . The missile bonus gonna be so worth it . I keep reading these threads about how much phoon sucks , but there loads of setups that can suprise your target, and if phoon sucks so much you sure showed them when they go pop .Get those skills up and go wreck havoc .
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dabster
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Posted - 2006.03.18 12:07:00 -
[29]
Split bonuses is RETARDED on a ship like Phoon.
Give it rof+dmg bonus to large projectiles, and 5 turrets, ya know, like a PROPER SHIP. ___________________________ Brutors Rule! My Eve-vids; Click. |
KilROCK
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Posted - 2006.03.18 12:07:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Pesadel0
Originally by: KilROCK
Originally by: Severa Crest Edited by: Severa Crest on 18/03/2006 11:34:11 It still wont be worth fitting AC's, i say increase the proj rof bonus to 7.5%.
Actually, thats a darned GOOD idea. Megathron is getting 7.5% per level to tracking?
Hop hop, I want 37.5% on my tempest ROF!
Mega is getting 7.5% ROF?.
But i agree with the OP i'am minmatar only and this bonus sucks ,yeah it could be good on a minmatar/caldari specialist ,but there are pipol that are committed 100% to their projectilles :).
As for notion that we need to train missiles to be efective?Hum that is simply not true i have 20M skills(6.5M in gunnary projectilles) and only 500K in missiles and i get along ok just fine .
No, All ships with 5% tracking hops to 7.5% per level, all with 7.5% hop to 10%. Read sticky.
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