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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
432
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Posted - 2014.02.15 09:13:00 -
[211] - Quote
Nokegi wrote:Never mind Facebook - whenever CCP distributes EVE they are shipping the Python interpreter, the Chromium browser, and other open source libraries. Those libraries are not owned by CCP, but are distributed under an appropriate license, so there is no problem with redistributing them. I don't know anything about Icelandic law, so there could be a reason the same principle doesn't apply to alliance logos, but it would be nice to have an explanation of what. EDIT: and that's a crazy license. Alliances have the right to use the logos they created only to defray costs, and only for "CLOTHING, HOUSEWARES, AND OTHER CONSUMER ITEMS DISPLAYING THE LICENSED PROPERTY". The first part seems to forbid making a profit from the logo; not that there's much reason for an alliance to do that, but that would usually be its own business. The second part is more drastic - if you want to, say, display the logo on your alliance website, too bad, that's not covered, since it's not a consumer item!
Icelandic law doesn't matter. The only IP law that matters is the law of whatever country you live in. This is a land grab and anyone who signs that agreement is as dumb as dogshit. |
Khanh'rhh
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2690
|
Posted - 2014.02.15 12:42:00 -
[212] - Quote
Arkady Romanov wrote:Fredlah wrote:I love this. If people thought goons were bad enough already, now they have lawyerswarm to picture... fatbee with a suit and a briefcase, anybody? It's been done
You god damn fool. You linked that on CCP's forums? They own that now. "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930 |
Arkady Romanov
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
98
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Posted - 2014.02.15 13:06:00 -
[213] - Quote
Khanh'rhh wrote:Arkady Romanov wrote:Fredlah wrote:I love this. If people thought goons were bad enough already, now they have lawyerswarm to picture... fatbee with a suit and a briefcase, anybody? It's been done You god damn fool. You linked that on CCP's forums? They own that now.
NNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooooooooo!!!!
STELLLAAAA! KHAAAANNNN!!! |
Ms Michigan
Aviation Professionals for EVE The Diogenes Club
29
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Posted - 2014.02.15 18:54:00 -
[214] - Quote
/Not a Lawyer
....so I am pseudo-following this whole discussion. What Darius brought up were some good points. If they want to bring up an Alliance name in a movie or something, they need to pay players for their creativity. Otherwise a can of "Koke" it will be.
Thanks to all those with Law Degrees getting involved. I am sure it will be solved to both parties liking. Hopefully?
So my question is to all of you:
I should hold off on submitting my Alliance's logo right?
2nd Question:
What about an answer being some sort of reciprocity agreement? CCP allows EVE logo usage an players allow Alliance logo usage? Would that be fair?
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Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
310
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Posted - 2014.02.15 19:06:00 -
[215] - Quote
what of any support work relating to the logo? I.E iterations of the design. are these covered by the policy ? can i continue to iterate upon them for use in another artistic capacity such as personal artwork or are they associated with the piece now belonging to ccp?
how far from the aproved design would another piece need to be to avoid any potential conflict? If in doubt...do...excessively. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9036
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Posted - 2014.02.16 06:35:00 -
[216] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: what of any support work relating to the logo? I.E iterations of the design. are these covered by the policy ? can i continue to iterate upon them for use in another artistic capacity such as personal artwork or are they associated with the piece now belonging to ccp?
how far from the aproved design would another piece need to be to avoid any potential conflict? There's no ******* point in even talking about this. They don't own the work. They will never own the work.
Also **** anyone who signs the agreement hereby legitimizing CCP's bullshit. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
433
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Posted - 2014.02.16 08:43:00 -
[217] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: what of any support work relating to the logo? I.E iterations of the design. are these covered by the policy ? can i continue to iterate upon them for use in another artistic capacity such as personal artwork or are they associated with the piece now belonging to ccp?
how far from the aproved design would another piece need to be to avoid any potential conflict? There's no ******* point in even talking about this. They don't own the work. They will never own the work. Also **** anyone who signs the agreement hereby legitimizing CCP's bullshit.
Anyone signing the agreement is actually signing away their work. Prior to that it's still theirs. CCP stomping their feet and claiming the sky is black doesn't make the sky black. |
Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
310
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Posted - 2014.02.16 09:03:00 -
[218] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: what of any support work relating to the logo? I.E iterations of the design. are these covered by the policy ? can i continue to iterate upon them for use in another artistic capacity such as personal artwork or are they associated with the piece now belonging to ccp?
how far from the aproved design would another piece need to be to avoid any potential conflict? There's no ******* point in even talking about this. They don't own the work. They will never own the work. Also **** anyone who signs the agreement hereby legitimizing CCP's bullshit. yes they do,by submitting the work you are given it to them, what id like to know is how much ,if any of he support work which is by its nature going to infringe upon the finished piece ,is covered by the arrangement , its fairly common for the entire process behind a piece to be considered part of the whole, this is often the case with conceptual work relating to film and in particular animation.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9037
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Posted - 2014.02.16 09:30:00 -
[219] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote: what of any support work relating to the logo? I.E iterations of the design. are these covered by the policy ? can i continue to iterate upon them for use in another artistic capacity such as personal artwork or are they associated with the piece now belonging to ccp?
how far from the aproved design would another piece need to be to avoid any potential conflict? There's no ******* point in even talking about this. They don't own the work. They will never own the work. Also **** anyone who signs the agreement hereby legitimizing CCP's bullshit. yes they do,by submitting the work you are given it to them, Giving what? Do you actually know what we're talking about? I seems given your reply that you don't.
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:what id like to know is how much ,if any of he support work which is by its nature going to infringe upon the finished piece It doesn't matter considering CCP doesn't own the original unless you sign their stupid agreement.
Ralph King-Griffin wrote: ,is covered by the arrangement , its fairly common for the entire process behind a piece to be considered part of the whole and to be sold along with it (under copyright), this is often the case with conceptual work relating to film and in particular animation. Yeah, whatever. Again, why are we talking about this? "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
310
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 09:42:00 -
[220] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Frightened angry words
we are talking about it because it is the reality,we are talking about volunteering art assets, Not a commission piece. my question was with regards those who left the tinfoil at home and agreed to this.
If in doubt...do...excessively. |
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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9037
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Posted - 2014.02.16 09:48:00 -
[221] - Quote
There's nothing tinfoil about a company making a blatant and unnecessary grab at its clients' intellectual properties.
Does Microsoft own a book because you wrote it in Word? Does Adobe own my company's logo because Photoshop was involved in the process? Does Google own my video because I posted it on YouTube for my friends to see? "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Ralph King-Griffin
Var Foundation inc.
310
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Posted - 2014.02.16 09:56:00 -
[222] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: unnecessary
read the blog If in doubt...do...excessively. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
6526
|
Posted - 2014.02.16 11:11:00 -
[223] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: unnecessary
read the blog the blog is wrong, idiot Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Disadvantaged Persons Outreach Division:
"We hire one-half of the working class to kill the other half." |
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
215
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Posted - 2014.02.16 11:11:00 -
[224] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: unnecessary
read the blog
If you Reply to this reply to your reply to his reply, You agree to transfer ownership of your first born to me. I need a mining slave.
^^ There is a point in there somewhere if your intuitive enough to realize it. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
9037
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Posted - 2014.02.16 11:37:00 -
[225] - Quote
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: unnecessary
read the blog So if I write something lengthy about why I require your property you'll hand it to me without question? I'd go ahead and do so but I suspect you have nothing of value to me. "Pretty much all 14 of the CSM were in favor of a drone assign nerf for OBVIOUS gameplay reasons" - Sala Cameron
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Uma D
Uma D Ltd.
57
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Posted - 2014.02.16 13:22:00 -
[226] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ralph King-Griffin wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote: unnecessary
read the blog So if I write something lengthy about why I require your property you'll hand it to me without question? I'd go ahead and do so but I suspect you have nothing of value to me.
Because he already has given it all away for free :). |
firepup82
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 15:09:00 -
[227] - Quote
as many have stated this was a huge **** move by CCP. they in terms just spit in the face of the community. And beyond that if they think that this will hold up in a court of law is just laughable. there is a few things here 1. different countries have different laws irregardless of what the ULA says. That is hurdle 1
2. if you trademark the image problem solved yes i realize trademarks do not span across borders but you trademark it here it protects you from big bad ccp lawyers if they decide to move forward with legal action.
NOW if ccp had servers in the USA you trademark an image they use it for profit. which they do. and they decide to take legal action against you you could counter sue them for profiting off your trademark. this is unlikely scenario more likely is what someone said earlier.
I take the image from apple and submit it its in game there servers are in the usa then they have a bigger issue apple could go after ccp for whatever portion of profit they deem necessary. its ccp's job to check out trademarks ect |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
91
|
Posted - 2014.02.18 22:05:00 -
[228] - Quote
I've got a fairly simple question for the legal team to answer:
Why are you offering to license people's own art back to them, rather than having them license their work to you?
Let's be honest, "you get to see your logo in a game!" is not actually a very good price for the IP CCP is demanding be handed over for without recompense, and "we'll totally let you use it still, in certain limited scenarios!" is not much better either, fresh as it is on the heels of sending C&D's over T-shirts. |
Fredlah
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2014.02.19 08:37:00 -
[229] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:I randomly selected a group of logos from a folder I had on my computer and uploaded them to make the blog pretty. No tinfoil required As for the questions that have come up in this thread, I'll see if we can get them answered for you buy legal over the weekend and early into next week
Almost been a week now... Still waiting on that reply from legal ^_^ |
Arkady Romanov
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
122
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 08:50:00 -
[230] - Quote
Fredlah wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:I randomly selected a group of logos from a folder I had on my computer and uploaded them to make the blog pretty. No tinfoil required As for the questions that have come up in this thread, I'll see if we can get them answered for you buy legal over the weekend and early into next week Almost been a week now... Still waiting on that reply from legal ^_^
Well its (been made into) a complicated issue and they probably get paid by the hour so... |
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Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
293
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Posted - 2014.02.19 11:56:00 -
[231] - Quote
Arkady Romanov wrote:Well its (been made into) a complicated issue and they probably get paid by the hour so... More likely that we've gone back to the proven CCP tactic of completely stopping communications when some idea goes down like a cup of cold sick. That way they can then later pretend everything has been discussed with the playerbase when they roll it out anyway. |
Goat Scrotus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 18:03:00 -
[232] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:Arkady Romanov wrote:Well its (been made into) a complicated issue and they probably get paid by the hour so... That way they can then later pretend everything has been discussed with the playerbase when they roll it out anyway.
They should consider running for Congress.
Or doing UI for Facebook, or running Google+, etc. |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
240
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 20:44:00 -
[233] - Quote
Dev Blog wrote:While CCP must retain ownership of Alliance logos that are submitted to us due to the fact that they are packaged within our client, and are part of our game IP,
In-Game About Tab wrote:Software Acknowledgments
This product includes the following software:
Uses software that is based in part on the work of the Independent JPEG Group. Uses software that is based in part of the work of the PNG Development Group. Uses Zlib, general purpose data compression library, written by Jean-loup Gailly and Mark Adler. Uses ChartDirector by Advanced Software Engineering. Uses Umbra by Umbra Software Ltd. Uses Wwise. Copyright -¬ 2006-2009 Audiokinetic Inc. All rights reserved. Uses Bink Video. Copyright -¬ 1997-2008 by RAD Game Tools, Inc. Uses Granny Animation. Copyright -¬ 1999-2008 by RAD Game Tools, Inc. Uses Simplygon-« Copyright -¬ 2009 Donya-« Labs AB. Portions of this software are copyright -¬ 2001-2008 Python Software Foundation, all rights reserved. Portions of this software are copyright -¬ 2008 The FreeType Project, all rights reserved. Uses Awesomium. Copyright -¬ Khrona 2009. This product includes software that is based in part of the work of the Xiph.Org Foundation. -¬ 2005, Xiph.Org Foundation MPEG Layer-3 audio coding technology licensed from Fraunhofer IIS and Thomson. Uses Chromium. Copyright -¬ 2008, The Chromium Authors. All rights reserved.
I'm having a very diccifult time squaring those two statements from CCP. First, CCP's lawyer says "CCP must own all IP in the game". Then Eve Online says (presumably CCP legal vetted) "we use this other stuff that we don't own." Please tell me which lawyer is lying to me.
MDD |
Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
119
|
Posted - 2014.02.19 21:40:00 -
[234] - Quote
Iceland has been a signatory to the Berne Convention since 1947 (Source). This makes CCP obligated to recognize the copyright of individuals in other countries that are also signatories of this convention. Additionally, copyright laws of a given country never contravene or provide less copyright protection than the Berne Convention. The convention provides allowance for people living in one country to claim copyright on their IP in other countries. Look it up.
CCP does not commission players to create alliance logos specifically for CCP's use; logo submission is a voluntary service and no compensation is awarded to the player for providing unique artwork. Alliance logos that do not include any recognizable aspects of anyone else's intellectual property are covered by the Berne Convention if the individual is in a member country and the owner of the logo has put the artwork into a fixed and tangible medium (including saving to a hard drive or disc).
So, in the alliance logo submission process, CCP should only be stating something like: 1. The individual submitting the artwork agrees to allow CCP to store the artwork in CCP's database in a format appropriate for the database; and 2. The individual submitting the artwork agrees to allow CCP to retrieve the artwork from the database when and as needed for use in applicable locations of CCP's game client for the purpose of identifying the alliance under which the artwork was submitted; and 3. The individual submitting the artwork must have the legal right to submit it and will not submit artwork that is someone else's property, and if proven to have done so, (i) CCP will immediately remove said artwork, and (ii) any legal costs brought to bear against CCP by the legal owner will become the responsibility of the individual who submitted the logo.
That's it. That's all the artwork is for: identification of a player-created entity. CCP should not have any expectation that it can use the artwork anywhere else or for any other reason. If CCP later decides they would like to use it outside their database and their game client, such as (but not limited to) on their forum, within a comic, in TV show/movie/video (including promotion of same), or on merchandise, that's a whole new situation. At that point CCP needs to approach the owner of that unique artwork for a new license, and that license needs to specify exactly what else CCP can use the logo for.
The license for an individual to upload and post the alliance logo on the EVE Online wiki should be similar as outlined above, except that point 2 would reference the wiki rather than the game client and all points should cover written content as well as a derivative work (see below).
It's worth noting that corporations that have no alliance, or are in an alliance with no alliance logo, have only their corporation logo to rely on for any website or physical merchandise they want to create and/or sell. They also have hosting packages, comm servers, and so on that need to be paid for, and it's just fun to have stuff to distribute.
"Original" corporation logos are limited to the finite number of combinations possible via CCP's in-game tool. Many of the art assets in the tool are generic symbols (for example, the symbol for the male gender/Mars, or the ankh, or any of the heraldic items). CCP only owns the specific stylization of their art assets that portray those symbols.
So, a CEO uses the tool to design a corporation logo. Let's say he chooses the symbol for the male gender/Mars. He selects yellow from the color picker so the symbol appears gold, and puts this combination on a black background. The image generated by the game client belongs to CCP because it uses their specific stylized art asset of that symbol. But if that CEO opens Photoshop, draws the symbol for Mars himself, then uses filters and a yellow fill to make that symbol look like gold, and puts it on a black background, that specific Photoshop image belongs to that person, not CCP, because the symbol for the male gender/Mars is not recognizable nor unique to EVE Online or CCP. So long as the CEO only uses his Photoshop file--and not the image generated by CCP's game client--he has every right to put that image on his website, coffee cups, tshirts, mousepads, etc and generate revenue from it if he wishes.
(Continued next post...) Suresha
- We are the few, spoken of by many | Solitary Pilot - |
Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
119
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Posted - 2014.02.19 21:41:00 -
[235] - Quote
A topic related to the copyright issues raised in this thread is derivative work. Players create a lot of other material which is related to their corporations, alliances, and general experiences playing EVE Online. These might be drawings and paintings ("fanart", not including logos addressed above), written or spoken stories ("fanfiction"), videos, toys, and who knows what else.
From what I understand, the Berne Convention indicates an individual must have permission (license) from the owner of an IP to create derivative work. If you have this permission, your work is your property provided you also give proper credit to the owner of the source IP. The copyright will overlap between you and the source IP where the original IP is referenced, unless the law permits the license to contain a written agreement where the creator surrenders ownership--and that agreement is actually legally executed. Otherwise, no infringement on the original IP takes place as long as the license isn't revoked and all parties do not contravene the license's limits.
CCP already grants players this permission to a certain extent. At Fanfest 2013, a dev panel was asked whether it was okay for players to self-publish fanfiction. Torfi was attending that panel as a member of the audience. He interjected to specifically say it was okay so long as the player did not try to formally publish the written work for profit, and if someone wanted to publish for profit, that person would have to get in touch with CCP first (limit of the license). Similarly, the fansite copyright notice indicates that CCP has granted permission for the website owner to use CCP's IP and trademarks on the website. Unfortunately, the fansite copyright notice also implies that CCP owns everything, which other posts rightly point out isn't true.
Regardless, there are tons of artists around the world who make their living creating art based on someone else's IP. They don't own that IP but they do own their artwork and they have the right to reproduce, sell, and distribute it. Any EVE player who creates an alliance or corporation logo--or any other piece of artwork--which partially uses CCP's IP should fall into this category once CCP writes an appropriate license. Any writer should likewise have a more appropriate license from CCP for their work. The blurb from the EULA quoted by the devblog doesn't cut it. The fansite copyright notice doesn't cut it either.
Ultimately: 1. CCP needs to recognize that they only require a license to use unique artwork like alliance logos in their game client, and that ownership of unique artwork stays with the player; and 2. CCP must obtain a separate license from the player anytime they wish to use the unique artwork in any form beyond the game client; and 3. CCP needs to provide a clear license to players governing use of CCP IP in derivative works, including artwork, written work, and any other creative form, especially for use on websites and merchandising for the specific purpose of defraying corporation or alliance costs. Suresha
- We are the few, spoken of by many | Solitary Pilot - |
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
220
|
Posted - 2014.02.20 01:21:00 -
[236] - Quote
Sakaane Eionell wrote:
Regardless, there are tons of artists around the world who make their living creating art based on someone else's IP. They don't own that IP but they do own their artwork and they have the right to reproduce, sell, and distribute it. Any EVE player who creates an alliance or corporation logo--or any other piece of artwork--which partially uses CCP's IP should fall into this category once CCP writes an appropriate license. Any writer should likewise have a more appropriate license from CCP for their work. The blurb from the EULA quoted by the devblog doesn't cut it. The fansite copyright notice doesn't cut it either.
I was watching something once forget what, but some guy in the UK makes custom storm trooper suits and other star wars inspired suits, and he sells these suits. All without a license. And he is protected because they are considered Art. All his suits are hand made not mass produced.
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OSGOD
Siren's calll Fallen Defiance
12
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Posted - 2014.02.20 11:22:00 -
[237] - Quote
CCP is not recognised in my country unless they can prove that they created the said intellectual property and as they do not they can get ****** if I design an alliance logo that design is my intellectual property , and CCP go do what adam and eve done , DONT PUSH ME I WONT SHOOT YOU |
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CCP Falcon
6003
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Posted - 2014.02.20 16:11:00 -
[238] - Quote
Fredlah wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:I randomly selected a group of logos from a folder I had on my computer and uploaded them to make the blog pretty. No tinfoil required As for the questions that have come up in this thread, I'll see if we can get them answered for you buy legal over the weekend and early into next week Almost been a week now... Still waiting on that reply from legal ^_^
Yeah, apologies for the delay.
I'm just posting here to let you guys know that we're still working on this issue, we're still discussing things with legal, and we'll have some follow up information as soon as we can.
Right now we're looking at discussing this with the alliances that were involved in the third party vendors takedown, then we'll be looking at giving more detailed information in terms of an explanation of the situation and where we go from here.
Sorry this is taking a little longer than expected, but it's a pretty complicated situation.
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Manager -á || -á EVE Illuminati
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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Radgette
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
61
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Posted - 2014.02.20 20:28:00 -
[239] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Sorry this is taking a little longer than expected, but it's a pretty complicated situation.
Not really your trying to steal people's IP and your now surprised that people don't want that.
Hardly rocket science given that what your doing doesn't hold water in pretty much the entire planets legal system.
Your just being bullies and hoping that people won't fight back. |
Coor Halootarne
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.02.21 00:24:00 -
[240] - Quote
In your dev post you said everything that I submit in eve was Intellectual Property of CCP and that this was standard practice, well this got me thinking because I reuse the names of most my characters from one game to another and if this is infact a breach of Intellectual Property I would have to start getting my lawyer friends on the phone to protect me
of the MMO's I've checked so far "World Of Warcraft, World Of Tanks, Lord Of The Rings Online,Final Fantasy XI" none of them have a clause stating that by accepting the EULA you are giving any IP rights to the owning company... I might be wrong as I don't speak legaleze, but that doesn't really sound like industry standard to me.
Runescape's terms of use states that the user is granting them "non-exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, royalty free, worldwide license to use and/or modify such materials on any Jagex Product as we see fit. You waive any moral rights to the extent allowed by law."
I do however know of a few games that allow the player to retain all rights to submitted user created content the biggest being Second Life which seems to have no problem with most of its world being created by its users
So which other MMO's are you referring to to call the EULA's clause for stripping intellectual property rights from their owners Standard practice? |
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