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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 10 post(s) |
Ortho Loess
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
28
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Posted - 2014.02.21 12:52:00 -
[241] - Quote
Coor's post made me finally get 'round to checking out a couple of other game EULAs myself.
As he says, the WoW Eula appears to contain no provision on the IP rights of character names or guild names at all, nor is there (for obvious reasons) anything about alliance logos or similar.
The more interesting one is Guild Wars 2. In discussions with Bill Winters, CCP General Counsel (he phoned the holder of the IP to our logo), he specifically used Guild Wars 2 as an example. He had contacted them asking for a copy of their EULA and was apparently quite proud to have profited from all this by being sent a collector's edition of the game with it in. (why he couldn't just google it and read it off the website like I did is anyone's guess).
So Bill said that they absolutely need to own all the IP. He acknowledged that this is stupid, since many people reuse names on various games. Along with the assertion that all game companies do the same as CCP are trying to do, the whole system is broken.
Apparently Bill was so happy about getting a free copy of guildwars that he spent all his time playing it, rather than actually bothering to read the EULA.
Quote:You acknowledge, and agree, that, as soon as they are created and to the extent You may claim any IP right(s) in them, You hereby grant NCSOFT a non-exclusive, irrevocable, royalty-free, worldwide, transferable right, for the legal duration of author rights protection under applicable law, to use, modify, display, duplicate, distribute and make them available to the public. You hereby grant NCSOFT an irrevocable, royalty-free, worldwide, non-exclusive, sub-licensable, license, for the legal duration of author rights protection under applicable law, and you grant full authorization to NCSOFT to exercise all rights of any kind or nature associated with such IP right(s), and all ancillary and subsidiary rights thereto, in any languages and media now known or not currently known.
source: https://www.guildwars2.com/en-gb/legal/guild-wars-2-user-agreement/
There are some interesting differences in the non-EU version. Clearly US law is more relaxed in allowing them to attempt to claim the copyright, however where this will fail it still falls back to the same non-exclusive license used in the EU EULA.
If CCP were to use a similar clause, in place of their land grab, then the EULAs would be compatible and we wouldn't have game studios gearing up to sue each other over the fact that I have a character in both games with the same name.
CCP Falcon has repeatedly claimed that what they are trying to do is standard practice in the MMO industry. All the evidence that I have found, and all that Coor has found, indicates that he is either lying or has been lied to by the legal department. I would be interested to see a list of the other MMOs that CCP knows to claim IP ownership in this way.
I would be perfectly happy with CCP having a license like the GW2 one to use our IP, they can use it for whatever they want, we can use it for our purposes too.
CCP Falcon: Why can you not claim a non-exclusive license as appears to be the true industry standard? |
Bantara
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
40
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Posted - 2014.02.21 14:48:00 -
[242] - Quote
CCP Falcom wrote:While player-created Alliance logos are part of CCPGÇÖs IP, Looking at it morally, not legally, that's a pile of animal excrement. If you want to claim it as intellectual property, you design the bloody things!
CCP Falcom wrote:While CCP must retain ownership of Alliance logos that are submitted to us due to the fact that they are packaged within our client, No, you mustn't. You choose too. You always have the choice, and you choose to assert the claim to them. Stop hiding behind such deceptive language, and just come clean--You're more interested in money(or protecting it) than giving creators sole ownership of their creations.
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David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
93
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Posted - 2014.02.24 21:45:00 -
[243] - Quote
No danger of anyone from Legal commenting themselves, obviously, but maybe Falcon could update the thread? |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6181
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Posted - 2014.02.25 17:41:00 -
[244] - Quote
So, does this mean soon little bees videos (featuring the bee) will be kicked out of youtube?
I like linking it to prospective newbees, you see. ^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
231
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Posted - 2014.02.26 14:17:00 -
[245] - Quote
I just came to a realization. By CCP's own logic and reasoning they must be the new proud owners of Twitch.tv, seeing as the twitch logo and name is now packaged within the client. |
Goat Scrotus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
0
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Posted - 2014.02.26 19:24:00 -
[246] - Quote
Tuttomenui II wrote:I just came to a realization. By CCP's own logic and reasoning they must be the new proud owners of Twitch.tv, seeing as the twitch logo and name is now packaged within the client.
As MailDeadDrop pointed out up-thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4257075#post4257075) they actually acknowledge the correct ownership of things owned by organizations with their own legal teams.
Now, since Lawyerswarm is probably larger than the legal teams of many software companies (CCP included)... |
Tuttomenui II
Aliastra Gallente Federation
231
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Posted - 2014.02.26 23:39:00 -
[247] - Quote
Goat Scrotus wrote:Tuttomenui II wrote:I just came to a realization. By CCP's own logic and reasoning they must be the new proud owners of Twitch.tv, seeing as the twitch logo and name is now packaged within the client. As MailDeadDrop pointed out up-thread (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4257075#post4257075) they actually acknowledge the correct ownership of things owned by organizations with their own legal teams. Now, since Lawyerswarm is probably larger than the legal teams of many software companies (CCP included)...
I was being sarcastic, and twitch isn't on that list. |
RDevz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
184
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Posted - 2014.02.28 20:01:00 -
[248] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:
Sorry this is taking a little longer than expected, but it's a pretty complicated situation.
This must be some strange new meaning of the word "little" of which I was not previously aware. ~ |
Ortho Loess
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
29
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Posted - 2014.03.01 12:50:00 -
[249] - Quote
It's not too hard to put an interpretation on what's going on here.
One of the other things that Bill Winters said in the phone call referred to earlier was that they didn't consider this as an important issue, because this thread was only at 12 pages.
Falcon closed my thread in the very active General Discussion section, and directed discussion here, where it's much quieter.
Falcon has made no substantive contribution to this thread. He has just said wait and see.
CCP's way of dealing with the situation appears to be to try and minimize the number of people who realise what they're doing. Their concept of customer relations appears to be that it's fine to screw over the user base, as long as not too many actually complain too loudly.
According to what we've been told, Burn Jita is the only thing they listen too. It makes a complete mockery of these forums, of Falcon's job title and of any claims they make to actually respect of listen to the player base.
Burn Jita was annoying. Those with reasonable grievances shouldn't have to ruin the game of others, just to get CCP to listen.
CCP Falcon: Stop trying to let this burn out and answer some of the questions raised in this thread. |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
93
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Posted - 2014.03.01 13:23:00 -
[250] - Quote
Yeah, this looks like "shut up until everyone gives up" PR management.
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TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
195
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Posted - 2014.03.02 05:11:00 -
[251] - Quote
We are still waiting on a response in the Margin Trading thread to, that was posted in November... |
Coor Halootarne
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.03.04 15:26:00 -
[252] - Quote
*Dev waves hand* "These are not the treads you are looking for"
On a more serious note its been over a week since this was last responded to, could we get an update on where this is at with "legal" |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
293
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Posted - 2014.03.04 18:35:00 -
[253] - Quote
Coor Halootarne wrote:On a more serious note its been over a week since this was last responded to, could we get an update on where this is at with "legal" haha it's like you're new to ccp.
oh wait, sorry, you actually are. well here's how it works.
ccp announce some change that is widely considered bad. they then "engage" with the community a bit (i.e. they post a couple of feel-good posts how they're totally listening to you, please continue to make constructive posts, they're getting read! honest!), then ignore the thread until they push the change.
they might then later on issue some non-binding "clarification" that clarifies nothing. |
Coor Halootarne
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2014.03.04 19:41:00 -
[254] - Quote
From my days in wow I never post on my main.
I know how it works now, It didn't always work that way, there was a time when ccp were much more community centric and listened, commented on and actually did what their player base wanted. Gone are the golden days though now the CSM cant disclose information till after there is no reason to and ccp shoves legal matters down our throats under the guise that it is how the entire industry does things.
You were the chosen one ccp! It was said that you would destroy the competition, not join them. You were to bring balance to the mmo industry, not leave it in darkness. |
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CCP Falcon
6024
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Posted - 2014.03.05 09:44:00 -
[255] - Quote
David Laurentson wrote:Yeah, this looks like "shut up until everyone gives up" PR management.
Not at all, there's still discussion regarding this going on internally.
I'm not going to come to the forums and give you a response until I've got a solid handle on what's going on, and where we stand.
I'm still in dialogue with our legal team, and with our brand people. Once there's something solid to talk about, I'll update this thread.
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Manager -á || -á EVE Illuminati
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
246
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Posted - 2014.03.05 15:16:00 -
[256] - Quote
David Laurentson wrote:Yeah, this looks like "shut up until everyone gives up" PR management.
CCP Falcon wrote:Not at all, there's still discussion regarding this going on internally.
I'm not going to come to the forums and give you a response until I've got a solid handle on what's going on, and where we stand.
I'm still in dialogue with our legal team, and with our brand people. Once there's something solid to talk about, I'll update this thread. Your "dialogue" is unacceptably slow. Tell who is dragging this out so we can yell at them to get off their lazy asses, otherwise we have no one to yell at but you (which seems a bit unfair if you're not the cause of the slowness...)
MDD
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CCP Falcon
6048
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Posted - 2014.03.11 12:35:00 -
[257] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:David Laurentson wrote:Yeah, this looks like "shut up until everyone gives up" PR management. CCP Falcon wrote:Not at all, there's still discussion regarding this going on internally.
I'm not going to come to the forums and give you a response until I've got a solid handle on what's going on, and where we stand.
I'm still in dialogue with our legal team, and with our brand people. Once there's something solid to talk about, I'll update this thread. Your "dialogue" is unacceptably slow. Tell who is dragging this out so we can yell at them to get off their lazy asses, otherwise we have no one to yell at but you (which seems a bit unfair if you're not the cause of the slowness...) MDD
You can feel free to yell at me, I have thick skin and I'm deaf in one ear.
In all seriousness though, I'm aware this is taking a long ass time, it just happens to be something that we have to look at from all angles and extremely carefully
CCP Falcon -á || -á EVE Community Manager -á || -á EVE Illuminati
@CCP_Falcon -á || -á-á@EVE_LiveEvents |
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MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
252
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Posted - 2014.03.18 14:15:00 -
[258] - Quote
Hey, look! Another week goes by and no response from CCP.
MDD |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
293
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Posted - 2014.03.20 11:35:00 -
[259] - Quote
MailDeadDrop wrote:Hey, look! Another week goes by and no response from CCP.
MDD it's like you are surprised about this shocking turn of events people aren't complaining anymore so they can just go through with it after "careful consideration" |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
93
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Posted - 2014.03.21 19:22:00 -
[260] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:MailDeadDrop wrote:Hey, look! Another week goes by and no response from CCP.
MDD it's like you are surprised about this shocking turn of events people aren't complaining anymore so they can just go through with it after "careful consideration"
That or the legal team are arguing internally against admitting they were wrong.
I mean, it's clear that they are wrong. Counter examples have been found to their 'industry standard' claims, including the one example they specifically gave of their imagined 'industry standard'. Their claimed industry standard is not legally possible in Germany, for goodness sake. The 'we must own everything in the client' argument fails when put next to the long list of exceptions, plus things like Twitch which is in the client, not listed in the licence as an exception, yet clearly can't be owned by CCP.
Therefore, all that's left is to argue about what the license should look like (the actual industry standard perpetual licence, perhaps), and then to argue over if someone from legal needs to get their sorry selves to a web browser and apologise for the mistake and for wasting everyone's time.
Also I guess if someone in legal was intentionally lying about something, then they're probably more concerned about firing them than anything else, but that does seem less likely than just screwing up. |
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MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
254
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Posted - 2014.03.26 06:33:00 -
[261] - Quote
Falcon I know you're busy firefighting that Erotic 1 shitstorm in GD, but take 5 minutes and harass CCP Legal again. It's been another week...
MDD |
Sakaane Eionell
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
122
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Posted - 2014.03.30 07:45:00 -
[262] - Quote
I'd like to see an update on this too. Suresha
- We are the few, spoken of by many | Solitary Pilot - |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
262
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Posted - 2014.04.02 17:58:00 -
[263] - Quote
And another week...
MDD |
Sirane Elrek
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
293
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Posted - 2014.04.03 11:30:00 -
[264] - Quote
I'm all for you taking your time and being careful to avoid major issues.
However, we're now at the point where this is ******* ridiculous. It's been seven weeks since you posted the devblog originally. It's been more than three weeks since the last contact with CCP in this thread. Shipping user-generated content in a game is a solved problem, technically and legally.
Hanlon's razor mandates I should assume incompetence in cases like these. If your legal team is too incompetent to redraft, or at least discuss (remember how you told us you'd get answers from them "as soon as possible" in february?), the license in nearly two months, they need to pull their heads out of their collective arses. |
Batelle
Tymast Industries 150th
2560
|
Posted - 2014.04.03 19:34:00 -
[265] - Quote
I think this was all a bunch of silly posturing between two parties that have no intention to ever litigate or provoke litigation. "CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"
Never forget. |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
93
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Posted - 2014.04.05 13:06:00 -
[266] - Quote
Sirane Elrek wrote:I'm all for you taking your time and being careful to avoid major issues. However, we're now at the point where this is ******* ridiculous. It's been seven weeks since you posted the devblog originally. It's been more than three weeks since the last contact with CCP in this thread. Shipping user-generated content in a game is a solved problem, technically and legally. Hanlon's razor mandates I should assume incompetence in cases like these. If your legal team is too incompetent to redraft, or at least discuss (remember how you told us you'd get answers from them "as soon as possible" in february?), the license in nearly two months, they need to pull their heads out of their collective arses.
Basically every time Legal gets involved in a community issue, it takes a long time to get anywhere.
As you say, Hanlon's Razor suggests this is not because they're malicious, just bad at this part of their jobs. |
Soldarius
Deadman W0nderland Test Alliance Please Ignore
619
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Posted - 2014.04.07 15:57:00 -
[267] - Quote
Does this mean Sister Mixu gave up all rights to his work creating videos, logos, and mascots for Tribal Band? I can confirm that he did in fact legally claim IP for that work, even if it was done gratis. Same goes for DredditMOT, which has it's own youtube channel, as well as MMD?
CCP needs to consider very carefully if they really want to **** off all of nulsec in a very permanent way.
Free Ripley Weaver! |
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
2960
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Posted - 2014.04.11 08:50:00 -
[268] - Quote
Why is this taking so long? Your lawyer bros came up with ridiculous terms that aren't legally enforceable in many countries because ips - to borrow a line from futurama - "do not work that way".
For those countries, you simply do not and will never own the IP no matter what weasely legalese you come up with.
And to top it off, there is just no conceivable reason as to why you need to OWN the IP. The kinds of uses/reasons you state are all satisfied by the kind of lincence that every other company employs when it comes to users uploading their IP to that companies games/services/systems/whatever.
I know CCP's standard practice is to stall and stall until people forget an issue, but that doesn't work here because even if all us mere users forget the issue, the laws wont magically change to do what CCP want. |
Aimy Maulerant
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
26
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Posted - 2014.04.11 13:07:00 -
[269] - Quote
can you please clarify that the artwork uploaded to your client is not original artwork, if i create a vector logo and upload a png of the file how can you possibly now own the said logo if i still pocess the original artwork and all files associated with the design, this is more proof that i own copyright than a 72dpi png file?
the file uploaded is an image of what the original artwork is so i dont see how you can claim rights to artwork someone else has produced, these sort of things annoy me people spend time and skills producing artwork for not very much money and huge companies seem to think they can claim rights to the artwork and possibly profit from using them without any credit to the artists |
Enaris Kerle
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
94
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Posted - 2014.04.16 09:18:00 -
[270] - Quote
I agree, CCP Falcon. Let's bury this stupid idea and never talk about it again. Gallente born and raised, and tutored as a pleasure slave and courtesan to the exotic tastes of the Amarri court. Jade's career veered violently off course when a diplomatic envoy's transport was blown to pieces in mysterious circumstances and she was rescued from the escape pods by the enigmatic genetic mastermind Athule Snanm. |
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