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Stephen Chow
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Posted - 2006.04.21 17:18:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: Petwraith
Any more problems will bring my newly created Lock Bat down upon this thread.
Can I have one of these newly created weapons? They sound uber! 
But seriously, there are three big categories we can use to solve this in economic terms.
All of T1 and some of T2 are commodities, those items that are needed in order to survive. They are available in large quantities and relatively affordable. Things like small uranium hybrid rounds (T1 and T2 ver.s), Paradise cruise missiles, Raven class battleships and PDUs(T2 ver) would be commodities IMO.
The second category would be luxuries. These are items that aren't necesary for survival but can help make life better. For example; HACs in general, Assault Frigates, Tech 2 variants of afterburners.
The final category is the specialized items that aren't needed to survive per se but can't be done without in specific situations. For example: Interdictors, Frieghters, Cloaking devices.
The OP seems to be mostly concerned with the second category, mistaking them for being part of the first. The fact of the matter is that something like a Cerberus is unnecesary, therefore, it's not really a problem for the devs. It's a problem for the player to be able to get the funds for it.
The notion that the devs have to stop people from being greedy in this game is funny. This is after all a Hypercapitalistic gaming world. 
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Galea Wildfang
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:30:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Andrue
For T2 to have meaning we need to have T1 and that means T1 must remain mainstream and T2 must remain more costly.
Even if T2 BPOs were seeded in the open NPC market (note that I am not necessarily advocating this), T2 would be more costly than T1 for the following reasons:
1. Higher materials cost
2. More varied materials required for production
3. Higher production skill levels required
4. Higher initial investment cost
5. Relative scarcity as a result of 1-4
5. More congested production lines as players realize the higher profit margins available to production
It seems fairly reasonable to assume that T2 prices will always be higher than T1 prices, and profit margins accordingly.
No one has a problem with T2 being more costly than t1 .. it's the huge difference that makes people unhappy.
Flamming leads to anger, anger leads to pain, pain leads to suffering, and suffering leads to teh Dark Side !
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Ms Freak
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:41:00 -
[123]
Originally by: NeoOhm
A idea to fix this overpriced t2 stuff is to add a few NPC¦s that manufactures t2 stuff for a resonable price, that way the prices in the galaxy should be more balanced.
Right now, we can see in the Insurances, that t2 ships are extremly expensive.
The Hawk it 3 mill payback and it it 18+ mill on the market.
Or the Cerberus that is 220+ mil and 14 mill payback.
Plz make some npc¦s or release more Blueprints so less greedy ppl can have a chance to make good ships for good prices.
Ty!
Yeah, and lets make a single player version of EVE so people can be all "uber 1337" and that way we can all be the best at everything on easy mode. 
Is it just me or do posts like this make anyone else wanna bang thier heads against walls and various other large, flat and hard objects?? 
Why can't people just get over the fact that this is how RL works too??
Senario:
1) UberElectricFirm Makes ProductX (Say DVD Writers?)
2) The UberElectricsFirm charges 300X Production cost on release.
3) Only 10% of the market buys one so the prices drop.
4) Once 80% of the market have one prices stabalize because the original units brake/explode and need replacing.. rinse repeat.
Now turn that 10% in step 3 to 80% - what happens?? Prices stay at 300x production cost.. WHY? BECAUSE PEOPLE PAY THAT FOR THEM!!
It's a shame they don't teach A Level Economics at Grade 2 instead
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NeoOhm
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:46:00 -
[124]
Wow, does the lenght of this thread make me famous now?!
Anyway, the lenght of is sure shows that its SOME problems with the economy or else there should not be anything to discuss.
Anyway, if my thread is number 50372 it means, like someone pointed out, there is a problem... did i just say that twice?!
WTF?! |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:48:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Galea Wildfang
Originally by: Malena Panic
Originally by: Andrue
For T2 to have meaning we need to have T1 and that means T1 must remain mainstream and T2 must remain more costly.
Even if T2 BPOs were seeded in the open NPC market (note that I am not necessarily advocating this), T2 would be more costly than T1 for the following reasons:
1. Higher materials cost
2. More varied materials required for production
3. Higher production skill levels required
4. Higher initial investment cost
5. Relative scarcity as a result of 1-4
5. More congested production lines as players realize the higher profit margins available to production
It seems fairly reasonable to assume that T2 prices will always be higher than T1 prices, and profit margins accordingly.
No one has a problem with T2 being more costly than t1 .. it's the huge difference that makes people unhappy.
Obvious solution: Multiply the prices of T1 ships and modules by 10.
/runs
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.04.21 18:52:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Ms Freak
Originally by: NeoOhm
A idea to fix this overpriced t2 stuff is to add a few NPC¦s that manufactures t2 stuff for a resonable price, that way the prices in the galaxy should be more balanced.
Right now, we can see in the Insurances, that t2 ships are extremly expensive.
The Hawk it 3 mill payback and it it 18+ mill on the market.
Or the Cerberus that is 220+ mil and 14 mill payback.
Plz make some npc¦s or release more Blueprints so less greedy ppl can have a chance to make good ships for good prices.
Ty!
Yeah, and lets make a single player version of EVE so people can be all "uber 1337" and that way we can all be the best at everything on easy mode.
Is it just me or do posts like this make anyone else wanna bang thier heads against walls and various other large, flat and hard objects??
Why can't people just get over the fact that this is how RL works too??
Senario:
1) UberElectricFirm Makes ProductX (Say DVD Writers?)
2) The UberElectricsFirm charges 300X Production cost on release.
3) Only 10% of the market buys one so the prices drop.
4) Once 80% of the market have one prices stabalize because the original units brake/explode and need replacing.. rinse repeat.
Now turn that 10% in step 3 to 80% - what happens?? Prices stay at 300x production cost.. WHY? BECAUSE PEOPLE PAY THAT FOR THEM!!
It's a shame they don't teach A Level Economics at Grade 2 instead
Maybe ISKs grow on trees?
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Father Weebles
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Posted - 2006.04.21 21:24:00 -
[127]
fix the damn insurance
anybody know why invul field II cost 14 mil a pop for a 5% bonus? LOL
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Ukonius
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Posted - 2006.04.21 21:44:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Sub rose
Originally by: NeoOhm
A idea to fix this overpriced t2 stuff is to add a few NPC¦s that manufactures t2 stuff for a resonable price, that way the prices in the galaxy should be more balanced.
Yeah ... please please please do this .... imagine the money that'll be made buying the limited NPC supply up and reselling them for player manufacturer prices *drool*
to prevent this the purchased ship could be Neural-linked to the buyer and thus unsellable. I still think they should cost a ton of money but not quite what they are at atm.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:02:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Father Weebles
fix the damn insurance
anybody know why invul field II cost 14 mil a pop for a 5% bonus? LOL
30% / 25% = 1.2
That's a 20% bonus.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:05:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Father Weebles
fix the damn insurance
anybody know why invul field II cost 14 mil a pop for a 5% bonus? LOL
30% / 25% = 1.2
That's a 20% bonus.
20% with respect to T1. On the whole, it is still 5%.
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RecruitMe@NOINT!
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:09:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Originally by: Father Weebles
fix the damn insurance
anybody know why invul field II cost 14 mil a pop for a 5% bonus? LOL
30% / 25% = 1.2
That's a 20% bonus.
20% with respect to T1. On the whole, it is still 5%.
(100 * (1 - 0.3)) / (100 * (1 - 0.25)) = 0.933333333
= 6.66% less damage, actually, because 50% hardening = cuts damage in half, 75% = cuts damage by 4 times, etc.
But I'm just nitpicking.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
NeoOhm
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:22:00 -
[132]
Well, atleast we got SOMETHING important out of this thread :)
WTF?! |
MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:27:00 -
[133]
I hope the price goes up more.
Seriously.
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Lady Gadiva
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:29:00 -
[134]
T2 modules are generally pretty decent value. Turrets in particular are almost always significantly cheaper than their best named counterparts. I think the reason so many people get annoyed about HAC prices is that they can simply never afford to play with one. They may or may not be worth the ridiculous prices, but so many people will never get a chance to find out for themselves. T2 ships are the sexiest toys in Eve, obviously everyone wants a go, even just once. It is massively unfair that only a small proportion of eve's population will ever get a chance to play with them outside the test server.
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MysticNZ
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Posted - 2006.04.21 22:30:00 -
[135]
Edited by: MysticNZ on 21/04/2006 22:30:33
Originally by: Lady Gadiva
T2 modules are generally pretty decent value. Turrets in particular are almost always significantly cheaper than their best named counterparts. I think the reason so many people get annoyed about HAC prices is that they can simply never afford to play with one. They may or may not be worth the ridiculous prices, but so many people will never get a chance to find out for themselves. T2 ships are the sexiest toys in Eve, obviously everyone wants a go, even just once. It is massively unfair that only a small proportion of eve's population will ever get a chance to play with them outside the test server.
Maybe they should make more isk then. Its not like it's hard or anything.
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Al Thorr
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Posted - 2006.04.21 23:21:00 -
[136]
ok to all the whiners that think t2 ships ie the Cerberus is expensive cos they want the ship now. and dont want to pay a premium price to get the ship asap. Who believe that turning the Bpos into Bpcs . Just one simple question....
Do you honestly believe that in converting Bpos into Bpcs will make the cost of the Hac Cheaper? Fact - If My Bpo turned into a Bpc - then all orders are voided. and I would just produce as many ships as I could and not sell them. after all why should I train all the skills to build the ship - to benefit for a limited time any other player? - Nah Id build em and keep them.
What Happens to the Price ........ Through the roof.
Please get an idea on how this game works before posting inane arguements.
Regards
Al Thorr
"You cant polish a turd" - The new rendered font is living proof.
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Tar Magen
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Posted - 2006.04.21 23:30:00 -
[137]
Edited by: Tar Magen on 21/04/2006 23:31:12
Why should there be a fixed number of BPOs for a given ship or module and that be it? How long does any technology stay holed up like it does on EVE? In any competitive economy, some company releases the initial version of a product and pulls it in for a while. Then what happens? More and more competitors start making items closely resembling it until finally the price drops down to where it starts to remotely reflect the cost of manufacturing and delivering it.
They should keep handing out more and more BPOs over time. The whole problem is due to the fact that they handed out a limited number and that was it. The BPO holders have had their time to get super freaking rich.
EDIT: And to head off the inevitable moron accusing me of whining, I did receive a tech II BPO. |
NeoOhm
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Posted - 2006.04.22 07:41:00 -
[138]
Well, ty all for the good discussion we had in this thread.
Ty for sharing your opininon without flaming away (most of you anyway)
Player run ecenomy seems to work but still, the huge amount of new players must be calculated in this and maybe a few more BP¦s.
That is about what we came toas a solution?
WTF?! |
Calleb
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Posted - 2006.04.22 09:00:00 -
[139]
Well It seems to me that there are only a few real problem items and ships.
OK its clear that certain ships make alot of money as they are the popular ship of the day (zealot retribution hulk etc.) and a few modules are similar (cap chargers ice miners etc) and I am quite happy accepting that in this free market that eve is manufacturers should be allowed to set their own prices.
There are a problem area however that I would like to see something done. This is specifically cloaking devices. I dont manufacture cloaking devices but i do manufacture covert-ops frigates. I have no say on the pricing structure of the cloaks that are needed to fit on to my ships though, and the high price of covert cloaks is killing my buisness.
The cloaks are as far as I am aware, are sort of unique ATM as the basic cloak is limited to player manufacture, The advanced cloak is therefore limited to the manufacturer of the basic cloak, and the manufacturer of the covert cloak is limited to the manufacturers of both the basic and advanced Cloak. Understandably the prices are going mental here (50mill for a covert cloak last time I looked). The introduction of recon curisers has only made the problem worse as more people want cloaks and there has been no BPO dropped.
I cant blame the cloak manufacturers as they get as much isk for them as they can, but if the prices continue to rise, I will be out of a job
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Cipher7
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Posted - 2006.04.22 09:57:00 -
[140]
If its overpriced then don't buy it.
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Flyyn
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:00:00 -
[141]
Well I have to add my own two cents here...again...Tech II overprices means sombody out there can afford to buy them. If they are a hard worker and play for four to 5 hours a night they can make maybe 20mill a night in 0.0. So this for a week and they can buy a HAC. Now I dont know that many people that will Rat or mine in 0.0 that steady for that long to buy an over priced HAC.
But there are several hundred (if not thousand) players that are willing, yes willing to buy ISK.
ISK is cheap...
Hac's are expensive in ISK
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Madcat Adams
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:07:00 -
[142]
Must agree with others, just don't buy them. Have a game wide boycot of Hacs for say 2 weeks, and the price will come down. Not that it will ever happen. The real kicker for me is the insurance. I could scrounge up the ISK after some hard core grinding for a while, did it for my first Apoc. The idea that if it goes I'm out basically everything though, well I'm saving my isk for a Tier 3, they can keep the Hac.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:09:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Madcat Adams
Must agree with others, just don't buy them. Have a game wide boycot of Hacs for say 2 weeks
Technically such a thing would work, however:
1. You'd never be able to get everyone to listen.
2. Since the sellers would know of the boycot, they'd just wait 2 weeks to avoid the price collapse.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Cipher7
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:17:00 -
[144]
Then what do you need isk for?
If rich and poor should fly the same ships, then there is no difference between being rich and poor.
Seriously, some of you live in socialist countries, you are totally out of touch with reality.
Nobody wants to spend 8 years learning to be a doctor, if it will just give them the same standard of living as a hot dog vendor.
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Madcat Adams
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:42:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Cipher7
Then what do you need isk for?
If rich and poor should fly the same ships, then there is no difference between being rich and poor.
Seriously, some of you live in socialist countries, you are totally out of touch with reality.
Nobody wants to spend 8 years learning to be a doctor, if it will just give them the same standard of living as a hot dog vendor.
Because in a socialist country the doctor would have chosen the profesion because he wants to heal patients, where as a Capitalst country people take it to make more for themselves. There is no other reason for price jacking than to impose a class system, denying the common player for the sake of making the rich players fell superior.
Stop and think about it, why should their be rich and poor? Why can't their just be everybody?
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:44:00 -
[146]
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 22/04/2006 10:44:01
Originally by: Madcat Adams
Originally by: Cipher7
Then what do you need isk for?
If rich and poor should fly the same ships, then there is no difference between being rich and poor.
Seriously, some of you live in socialist countries, you are totally out of touch with reality.
Nobody wants to spend 8 years learning to be a doctor, if it will just give them the same standard of living as a hot dog vendor.
Because in a socialist country the doctor would have chosen the profesion because he wants to heal patients, where as a Capitalst country people take it to make more for themselves. There is no other reason for price jacking than to impose a class system, denying the common player for the sake of making the rich players fell superior.
Stop and think about it, why should their be rich and poor? Why can't their just be everybody?
Because... this... is... a... capitalist economy...
EVE is not communism and never will be.
P.S. The "common player" isn't denied. I have never won a BPO, yet I have billions and multiple T2 BPOs. The "lazy and/or uncreative player" is denied.
As in real life, there is not an equality of wealth--there is an equality of opportunity.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
Hunters Presence
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Posted - 2006.04.22 10:58:00 -
[147]
Quote:
As in real life
Correction: As in your country.
However, the rest is perfectly truthful. EvE is not an equal society, that would defeat the object. Part of the charm of the game for many players is that such monopolies can and will take place.
-----
Lead Games Programmer @ Quasit-Rushyo Games | Me! |
Madcat Adams
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Posted - 2006.04.22 11:03:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
Edited by: Dark Shikari on 22/04/2006 10:44:01
Originally by: Madcat Adams
Originally by: Cipher7
Then what do you need isk for?
If rich and poor should fly the same ships, then there is no difference between being rich and poor.
Seriously, some of you live in socialist countries, you are totally out of touch with reality.
Nobody wants to spend 8 years learning to be a doctor, if it will just give them the same standard of living as a hot dog vendor.
Because in a socialist country the doctor would have chosen the profesion because he wants to heal patients, where as a Capitalst country people take it to make more for themselves. There is no other reason for price jacking than to impose a class system, denying the common player for the sake of making the rich players fell superior.
Stop and think about it, why should their be rich and poor? Why can't their just be everybody?
Because... this... is... a... capitalist economy...
EVE is not communism and never will be.
P.S. The "common player" isn't denied. I have never won a BPO, yet I have billions and multiple T2 BPOs. The "lazy and/or uncreative player" is denied.
As in real life, there is not an equality of wealth--there is an equality of opportunity.
This economy is whatever the players make it. Should the community decide to reject price gouging, they could put an end to it by simply standing up and refusing to pay the prices. The business owners would adopt, or be forced to sell out to others who would.
By the way, your posession of "billions and multiple T2 BPOs" would mark you as not one of the common players. A bit like Donald Trump standing up in the middle of a union meeting and saying that the distribution of wealth is just fine.
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2006.04.22 11:05:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Madcat Adams
This economy is whatever the players make it. Should the community decide to reject price gouging, they could put an end to it by simply standing up and refusing to pay the prices. The business owners would adopt, or be forced to sell out to others who would.
And we will burn the capitalists and start our Bolshevik Revolution, my brothers! VIVE LA REVOLUTION!
Originally by: Madcat Adams
By the way, your posession of "billions and multiple T2 BPOs" would mark you as not one of the common players. A bit like Donald Trump standing up in the middle of a union meeting and saying that the distribution of wealth is just fine.
Sure I'm a common player. I earned every cent of those BPOs myself. I can't feel sorry for other common players complaining about the price of T2 and complaining that its out of reach when I earned all this myself in such a relatively short period of time.
I didn't start playing EVE until 18 months after release, and I have never had more than one account. And nobody gave me anything. I've never received any donations, nor have I sold gametime cards.
[23] Member: Official Forum Warrior
What's with the blue robots? Click my sig.
RAWR!11 Sig Hijack!11 - Imaran |
fkingfurious
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Posted - 2006.04.22 11:11:00 -
[150]
Edited by: fkingfurious on 22/04/2006 11:13:11
I guess another reason why t2 ship prices just keep rising is cos they never get superceded. HACS are beyond dispute the best solo pvpers/ e-peens in the game. As more and people get the skills the demand sky rockets but supply cannot increase to match and so prices rise. However, in the real world something better would have come along and so the prices of the "old" HACS would drop. That doesnt happen in eve. And as the supply of these ships is never going to increase the price can only continue to rise. And we all know from experience that people will always buy them, regardless of how much they cost. So if we think that theyre expensive now, what are we gonna do when a cerb is 300m, and 400m, and then 500m and still rising. Cos if the system doesnt change prices like that are the only possible outcome.
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