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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 62 post(s) |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
377
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Posted - 2014.05.08 15:11:00 -
[811] - Quote
this whole thread could benefit from a healthy dose of the KISS principle
keep it simple, stupid |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
986
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 15:18:00 -
[812] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:[you keep citing increasingly narrow edge cases as a reason to completely ignore the changes and implement a reskinning of the old system (which will not require you to alter your spreadsheets one bit) but now we are left with "well, newbies might not realize that when they build a single unit of a very low-part item that their 1% research (which takes thirty seconds) might not have an effect, ergo we should abolish this new system that is easier and intuitive in 99.999% of cases for the sake of these vanishingly small edge cases. really i'm all about the newbies, not just raging at change"
You fail to address the main concerns. 1) Round up of every ME10 to perfect. 2) Drastically longer research times for newer players. 3) Still massive complexity in the new system due to rounding. 4) Makes it impossible to do partial research between whole % waste.
I'm in favor of change that actually improves the game. Change, which claims to remove complexity, but actually maintains all the current complexity while managing to screw over a significant portion of the current and future player base AND removes functionality? Not such a fan.
If a re-skin of the current system actually achieves the stated goal without removing functionality and screwing over players, then it is the better option.
CCP has screwed the pooch big time on this industry make-over.
From research to infinite slots, from removing the value of a high sec POS to putting small corps at a major disadvantage, from destroying remote use of locked down BPO to emo rage this disaster is/will create... What a disaster! |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
986
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 15:25:00 -
[813] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:this whole thread could benefit from a healthy dose of the KISS principle
keep it simple, stupid
But we can't use fractions of a unit of tripped power circuit or capital armor plate, which creates rounding, which has ALWAYS been the source of complexity in research, and this rework does not remove that complexity.... but the rework does manage to F' over people that have spent a lot of time researching BPOS, new players that will have to research for 4-5x as long to get sub-1% waste, and removes the ability to research between whole % waste.
Oh... but calculating the waste at the run instead of job level....
Could have done that on top of old system and poooff... most of the complexity of that system would have gone away too.... without f''n over current player, future players, and removing functionality.
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Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7313
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 15:34:00 -
[814] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: You fail to address the main concerns. 1) Round up of every ME10 to perfect. 2) Drastically longer research times for newer players. 3) Still massive complexity in the new system due to rounding. 4) Makes it impossible to do partial research between whole % waste.
1) this is great and one of the best features of this change, the elimination of idiotic infinite research for infinitely small returns 2) i consider this an issue of the ramping-up of research time being too harsh 3) the complexity exists only in edge cases and those are getting rarer and rarer as i knock down your dumb posts. we are left with capitals (where its expensive enough they can dealw/it or a newbie making a single small rig which is literally the only time a newbie will hit this issue) 4) only a problem due to extreme time-scaling: it's only when we're talking supercap bpos with research times in years that this becomes more of an issue than the current system
your entire incredibly stupid argument for your dumb system is based solely on the edge case of a newbie making a single small rig. SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD REASON TO JUNK A GREAT CHANGE TO ME Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7313
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 15:45:00 -
[815] - Quote
to make clear for the benefit of readers who are glossing over what I have been implying: LHA Tarawa doesn't even believe his own stated concerns and just hates being moved out of his rut and is throwing whatever he can find at the wall to see what sticks
none of it is sticking Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7316
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:00:00 -
[816] - Quote
Basically, as I said in the other thread my largest concern is with the scaling on capital and above BPOs. While I recognize it's somewhat unfair for a new industrialist to have to research his bpo for four months instead of two in order to get a perfect Raven bpo, I consider this an acceptable level of grandfathering. The advantage gained is temporary and easily overcome and really acts as a mild benefit to current bpo holders in the same way, say, a gift of a gnosis or gecko did (they get a one-time bonus, new subscribers have to pay to get the same thing but can easily do so).
The real issue is supercap bpos because there the time-scaling turns a minor disadvantage into an insurmountable obstacle. For example, I have a leviathan BPO that will convert as a ME4/PE2 bpo. That's a lot of research: probably a year or two (but leviathans were in so little demand that amount of research was just done during its downtime). But post-patch that's like half a decade or more. That's an absolutely insurmountable obstacle for a new leviathan bpo holder: it is more akin to a t2 bpo than a gnosis, something that will be a permanent advantage.
So there, you've got to rethink it a little bit. The simplest solution to me is to just cut the research time of these high-end BPOs: make it so that researching to "perfect" is doable in timespans shorter than a standard college education. It won't seriously cut the price of titans and it will prevent old-bpoers from being inassalably better (even if only to a relatively small degree). It's much simpler than adjusting the increasing price at the high end (though I do think it ramps up too hard and would benefit from reducing the multiplicitive increase from level to level and starting out initial research higher). Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Dramaticus
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
540
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:35:00 -
[817] - Quote
YOU CANT CHANGE BPOS YOU WILL REGRET THIS!!! The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal
The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them |
Babbet Bunny
State War Academy Caldari State
15
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:36:00 -
[818] - Quote
Love the change, not that the math was complicated, but that others were too lazy to calculate.
Would like to see more gradients in the levels i.e. Small-XL ammo 1-4, T1 Modules start at 5. A change in starting time and step multiplier would make this more palpable. The total time to new ME 5 should be equal to old ME 1. For example, new ME 10 freighters should not take 12 years to achieve, but closer to the old ME 10 ~20 months (Unskilled NPC station etc.).
So using a freighter or carrier for example base time 15 minutes, rank 400, multiplier 1.6 will give a result of 65.9 days to new ME 5 and 756.6 days to new ME 10.
Using small ammo at rank one all else, the same results in 45 hours to ME 10
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
987
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:40:00 -
[819] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote: You fail to address the main concerns. 1) Round up of every ME10 to perfect. 2) Drastically longer research times for newer players. 3) Still massive complexity in the new system due to rounding. 4) Makes it impossible to do partial research between whole % waste.
1) this is great and one of the best features of this change, the elimination of idiotic infinite research for infinitely small returns
F'n over people that put time and effort into achieving something, is "one of the best festrues". Nice.
ME 19 to get to .5% waste or 39 to get .25% waste is not "idiotic".
Weaselior wrote: 2) i consider this an issue of the ramping-up of research time being too harsh
And I consider it to be utter f'up in removing ability to research between whole %.
Weaselior wrote: 3) the complexity exists only in edge cases and those are getting rarer and rarer as i knock down your dumb posts. we are left with capitals (where its expensive enough they can dealw/it or a newbie making a single small rig which is literally the only time a newbie will hit this issue)
It is not an edge case. We frequently use JIT manufacturing of a couple small items.
The "simplification" still hides the complexity for small jobs, and for large jobs the rounding at job level moves the complexity to identifying optimal job size instead of optimal BPO research level.
Weaselior wrote: your entire incredibly stupid argument for your dumb system is based solely on the edge case of a newbie making a single small rig. SOUNDS LIKE A GOOD REASON TO JUNK A GREAT CHANGE TO ME
My argument against the new design is: 1) F's over current players that spent a lot of time researchign beyond 10. 2) F's over new players that will have much longer research times to get sub-1% waste. 3) Removes functionality by not being able to research between whole % numbers. 4) Still all the same complexity involved in rounding.
Your pro-change argument appears to be: 1) F'n over players that spent a lot of time and effort researching BPOs is good. 2) Maybe at some point CCP will change the F'd up stupid long research times to help new player (further F'n over the players that had spent time and effort researchign BPOs) 3) Changing the optimization complexity from BPO level to job size level to get optimal rounding is good.... because F the little guys that don't do 10 runs of a carrier at a time. 4) Change for the sake of change, even if it removes functionality, f's over players and doesn't achieve its stated goal becuase rounding has always been the source of complexity and is still present, is good, because players will have to spend 2 mins updating spreadsheets.
Of course, then there is the implied argument. Changes that make the large, rich and powerful alliances larger, more powerful and richer, by giving them much larger advantages over the small corps is GOOOD!!!!
It so happens, I disagree with all your points. |
LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
987
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:43:00 -
[820] - Quote
Babbet Bunny wrote:Love the change, not that the math was complicated, but that others were too lazy to calculate.
And all that calculation is still there, because the complication is, and always has been, and will still be, the rounding inflection points.
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Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
378
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:44:00 -
[821] - Quote
the fact that you spent a lot of time researching bpos for almost no benefit because you are either trying to bilk people out of their money or the fact that you didn't know any better does not entitle you to retain the benefit of your unnecessary work
it just doesn't, get over it |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
378
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:45:00 -
[822] - Quote
i too am unable to understand the concept of asymptotic returns, bigger automatically means better |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7317
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:48:00 -
[823] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: F'n over people that put time and effort into achieving something, is "one of the best festrues". Nice.
ME 19 to get to .5% waste or 39 to get .25% waste is not "idiotic". ...
And I consider it to be utter f'up in removing ability to research between whole %.
...
It is not an edge case. We frequently use JIT manufacturing of a couple small items.
... The "simplification" still hides the complexity for small jobs, and for large jobs the rounding at job level moves the complexity to identifying optimal job size instead of optimal BPO research level.
1) it was dumb and it's great it's being removed 2) given your bad opinions that have been repeatedly smashed into the ground things you "consider" that are unsupported are worse than meaningless 3) it is absolutely an edge case, it is 100% an edge case and you are flatly lying if you claim that your industrial operation will be at all impacted in any meaningful way 4) there is no complexity for small jobs, and the changes are intended to reward longer jobs (which you would know if you'd understood them: cost per run goes down for longer jobs), basically you've got to use your noggin but the UI is much better at giving you the data to use your noggin on instead of the hard part being wrestling the data from the UI
LHA Tarawa wrote: Your pro-change argument appears to be: 1) F'n over players that spent a lot of time and effort researching BPOs is good. 2) Maybe at some point CCP will change the F'd up stupid long research times to help new player (further F'n over the players that had spent time and effort researchign BPOs) 3) Changing the optimization complexity from BPO level to job size level to get optimal rounding is good.... because F the little guys that don't do 10 runs of a carrier at a time. 4) Change for the sake of change, even if it removes functionality, f's over players and doesn't achieve its stated goal becuase rounding has always been the source of complexity and is still present, is good, because players will have to spend 2 mins updating spreadsheets.
Of course, then there is the implied argument. Changes that make the large, rich and powerful alliances larger, more powerful and richer, by giving them much larger advantages over the small corps is GOOOD!!!!
It so happens, I disagree with all your points.
unsuprisingly you are unable to grasp my arguments (much like you are unable to grasp the changes)
players that spent time researching their bpos will have better bpos post-change, your whining aside, the long research times are noted as a thing that may change in the initial blog announcement, the little guy is completely irrelevant here and is something you're making up and don't care about and the little guy doesn't build carriers you nitwit
and the changes are all great, they're not for the sake of change and they achieve their goals. you just aren't smart enough to use the new system so you're furious at it Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7317
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:51:00 -
[824] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote:Babbet Bunny wrote:Love the change, not that the math was complicated, but that others were too lazy to calculate.
And all that calculation is still there, because the complication is, and always has been, and will still be, the rounding inflection points. nope
the rounding inflection points matter when you are building a single carrier without teams or an outpost, and that is it
every other time there are no longer inflection points except in extreme edge cases, 5% is 5% everywhere Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7317
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 16:52:00 -
[825] - Quote
i can literally keep dunking you all day if you keep making the same stupid mistake, you're going to have to make new and interesting mistakes to have a chance at conning anyone into believing your point for even a few seconds Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Malcanis
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
15386
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 17:08:00 -
[826] - Quote
Has anyone discussed yet how CCP meddling with the supply chains they set up in 2010 to use the BPOs they researched in 2005 is a violation of their human rights and wire fraud and theft and there's going to be a court case about it? "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his ISK/hr depends upon his not understanding it!" |
Gamer4liff
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
83
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 17:23:00 -
[827] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Has anyone discussed yet how CCP meddling with the supply chains they set up in 2010 to use the BPOs they researched in 2005 is a violation of their human rights and wire fraud and theft and there's going to be a court case about it? As tortured as the existing ME/PE/research mechanics are right now, these changes are just bringing EVE slightly closer to being in conformance with the Geneva Conventions. :V
On the note of high research times for capital BPOs, maybe a special research structure for POSes exclusively for capital BPOs could bring the higher end research times down for them? Would make a nice juicy target for attack too, in the same way CSAAs are now. 'Capital Blueprint Research Array' maybe? |
DireNecessity
The M.P.I. The Marmite Collective
45
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 18:42:00 -
[828] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:Basically, as I said in the other thread my largest concern is with the scaling on capital and above BPOs. While I recognize it's somewhat unfair for a new industrialist to have to research his bpo for four months instead of two in order to get a perfect Raven bpo, I consider this an acceptable level of grandfathering. The advantage gained is temporary and easily overcome and really acts as a mild benefit to current bpo holders in the same way, say, a gift of a gnosis or gecko did (they get a one-time bonus, new subscribers have to pay to get the same thing but can easily do so). The real issue is supercap bpos because there the time-scaling turns a minor disadvantage into an insurmountable obstacle. For example, I have a leviathan BPO that will convert as a ME4/PE2 bpo. That's a lot of research: probably a year or two (but leviathans were in so little demand that amount of research was just done during its downtime). But post-patch that's like half a decade or more. That's an absolutely insurmountable obstacle for a new leviathan bpo holder: it is more akin to a t2 bpo than a gnosis, something that will be a permanent advantage. So there, you've got to rethink it a little bit. The simplest solution to me is to just cut the research time of these high-end BPOs: make it so that researching to "perfect" is doable in timespans shorter than a standard college education. It won't seriously cut the price of titans and it will prevent old-bpoers from being inassalably better (even if only to a relatively small degree). It's much simpler than adjusting the increasing price at the high end (though I do think it ramps up too hard and would benefit from reducing the multiplicitive increase from level to level and starting out initial research higher).
Weaselior,
I could quibble about little things (I'd be comfortable with slightly longer than 4 months to perfect for a Raven bpo) but such quibbles are just that, quibbles. The important point that I've finally became aware of is that in the new system BPO research must become *a* thing among others (like team availability and labor shortages) rather than *the* thing as it is now. My apologies to all readers who endured my tortured logic getting from there to here.
We could speak about whether "re-ramping" time to perfect BPOs should be extended down to less high-end BPOs. It would be far more elegant to have all BPO research ramp the same way (though actual time required would vary) but it may be practically difficult to achieve this in a satisfying manner. Since the goal is to avoid introducing undue complexity, it might be worth looking at.
Having finally moved on from concerns about the transition (which were mostly due to continuing to think of BPO research as *the* thing), I'm still sad to see the blueprint copy market niche get crushed. Accordingly, I'll again toss the same challenge out to the blueprint copiers, "Can you think of a way to save your niche that isnGÇÖt based on nearly unassailable (though hard won) time already played advantage?GÇ¥ If you canGÇÖt, your future prospects look rather dim because a market that never ever lets players younger than you compete is suicidal game design and probably wonGÇÖt get much ongoing support from CCP. |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 18:46:00 -
[829] - Quote
You can save BPC copying as a profession by introducing copy-speed research and re-scaling TE to make it far more relevant.
Maintain the base copy-speed on everything as it is, and have it reach the desired value at Copy Level 10. Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
Ronny Hugo
Dark Fusion Industries Limitless Inc.
67
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 18:47:00 -
[830] - Quote
I welcome this change with open arms. Even though I have quite a number of BPOs with high levels and have spent ages researching.
To anyone who don't want this change because they have invested so much time and effort into researching into insane levels: Read about the sunk-cost fallacy. We are not going to invest millions of hours into the old system just because we've invested millions of hours into it already.
Seith Kali wrote:You can save BPC copying as a profession by introducing copy-speed research and re-scaling TE to make it far more relevant.
Maintain the base copy-speed on everything as it is, and have it reach the desired value at Copy Level 10. What do you mean by saving copying as a profession? Everyone will be using copies! Even the ones who own the BPOs will use BPCs. This will only increase the BPC market size. While prices will go down for individual copies, the total amount of copies traded multiplied by price will be larger. Its like comparing aluminium prices in 1850-1900 with aluminium prices today. While the prices was so high in 1850-1900 that Napoleon supposedly ate off aluminium plates, people earn way more from aluminium today than back then, because we now deal with millions of tons instead of grams. |
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
991
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:18:00 -
[831] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:unsuprisingly you are unable to grasp my arguments (much like you are unable to grasp the changes)
Unable to grasp your argument? I'm using your own words. One of the best things about the change is how if f's over the people that spent a lot of time researching BPOs.
So, explain your argument to me again?
The complexity was in the rounding... so they attacked the part of the research that was not complicated, ignoring the part that caused the complexity. When people pointed out all the complexity involving rounding is still there, they are hacking in a fix, hat moves the complexity from BPO research to job runs size.
Hack, hack.
The broke the ability to research between whole %s and have created a system that will cause newer players to emo rage over their 4-5x as long research times to get below 1% waste. You dismiss this as "it is just that the scale ramp up is too steep", without admitting that flattening the scaling will further F over the people that spent a lot of time, money and effort on researching BPOs....
But, of course, you say that is actually one of the best features of this release... how those people are screwed over because others magically, poof, catch up, with FAR less time and money devoted to research.
So, explain it to me again? What are the good aspects of these changes?
And explain it to me in real simple terms, because with only a 140 IQ, I seem unable to understand how screwing people over is a good thing. |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:22:00 -
[832] - Quote
As a programmer, I think you may have a type error in your IQ value. Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:28:00 -
[833] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote: What do you mean by saving copying as a profession? Everyone will be using copies! Even the ones who own the BPOs will use BPCs.
The only way everyone will use BPCs is if the max runs is increased dramatically where it is important (component bpos, many many ships). Copying titans and stuff could still be viable if the base rate of copy speed is left untouched. People wishing to persue copying as a profession will have the option to research copy speed maintaining the niche profession to the few that wish to do it. Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
382
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:33:00 -
[834] - Quote
oh lord did you just use IQ as an argument on an internet forum |
Seith Kali
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
36
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:34:00 -
[835] - Quote
He did. Did you know he is a computer programmer too? Apprentice Goonswarm Economic Warfare Consultant - Drowning in entitlement and privilege.-á |
MailDeadDrop
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
313
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:38:00 -
[836] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:The goal is that all blueprints have the same or less waste after the change. If that is the goal, or even "a goal among several," then I have to say you are missing it massively when it comes to "extra materials" on invented BPCs.
Can you make it so that the current mechanic's quantity of extra materials matches the quantity required at ME -40% (I think that's the proposed mechanic's label)? Otherwise you're going to nerf the heck out of every invented BPC in the game which has "extra materials" presently (all of them?), which is just an indirect buff to T2 BPOs. I think we all know that's a bad thing.
MDD |
Weaselior
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
7322
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:48:00 -
[837] - Quote
LHA Tarawa wrote: And explain it to me in real simple terms, because with only a 140 IQ, I seem unable to understand how screwing people over is a good thing.
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *gasp* *wheeze* hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
you know those internet tests generally set their baseline at like 150 so you pay for the report on what a genius you are right
you must have really blown it to get a 140 that's like dog-level on their scale Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division. |
Shoogie
Serious Pixels
109
|
Posted - 2014.05.08 19:51:00 -
[838] - Quote
Darin Vanar wrote:I bet Shoogie could have taken on the entire CCP team and won. Rollaz too. They don't need Gunni Nelson at this point. They dropped these blogs and left off for Fanfest. If they wanted a cage match, they should stayed to brave the Pandora's box they unleashed on the forums.
Like I said, my money's on Shoogie but I think I could have bested a few CCP team members myself!
Hah, funny. I do wish I could put Greyscale in a headlock and ask him what he is trying to do to the game. The new facility costs and the work teams are huge changes by themselves which will make industry much more interesting, and hopefully profitable. They don't need to screw up the research system at the same time.
For what it is worth, here is my ideal research system which will never be implemented:
Changing research to increase efficiency instead of reduce waste is a good change. Keep the proposal to multiply the base material cost of everything by 1.111... and then use research to reduce that by up to 10% to end at the same place.
Keep the existing ME levels and research times. Use the UI to distract people from the ME number.
Currently, when you show info on a blueprint there is a "Waste" line. That line is directly calculated from the ME level of that blueprint. It goes from 10% on a ME 0 blueprint to 0.0% on a rediculous blueprint. You don't need waste anymore, you need savings. So you subtract the current waste number from 10% and there you go. Make this the prominent number that is the first thing you see when you open a blueprint, or when you are looking at blueprints on contracts. Limit the displays to only one digit after the decimal point. The actual ME level is still visible near the bottom of the blueprint somewhere so a potential buyer can compare two blueprints which both show savings of 9.8%.
Math: Savings = 0.1-0.1/(1+ME)
The multiplier value is 1-savings. This number doesn't need to be shown to the users. On an ME0 blueprint with 0 savings, you will require the full cost. On an ME4 blueprint with 8% savings, the material requirements are multiplied by 0.92000. So we are back to every blueprint both before and after the patch have the same bill of materials for each ME level.
Examples: So an ME0 blueprint displays Savings = 0.0%. Multiplier = 1.000000. An ME1 blueprint displays 5%. Multiplier = 0.950000. An ME9 blueprint displays 9.0%. Multiplier = 0.910000. An ME20 blueprint displays 9.5%, but the multiplier = 0.904762. All blueprints between ME66 and ME198 display 9.9%, but the ME66 one has a multiplier of 0.901493 and the ME 198 one has a multiplier of 0.900503. All blueprints ME199 and over display 10%, and as the ME level increases the multiplier gets diminishingly closer to 0.9, but never reaches it.
When considering whether to do ME research or not, rather than enter a number for ME levels you want to research, the UI has a slider that goes from 0 to one month (or one job for jobs lasting more than a month.) Each increment be the length of one ME level, but that is not obviously displayed. On the left side of the screen show the current savings percentage and bill of materials. Add up the cost to manufacture one run. On the right side of the screen show the new savings percentage, new bill of materials, cost of one run, and cost to install the job. Under that is the "Accept" button.
Benefits: * This system is intuitive to players because it is similar to the resistance system and the standings system in which you can get close to perfect but never really there.
* The UI shows you a number that is relevant similar to the CCP suggested system.
* The UI showing you the results of the research mean that newbies who don't understand the system can learn it in game and are not likely to over-research something.
* On patch day, there is no need to go and touch every blueprint in every job installed and player's hangar everywhere. Simplified patch -> less chance for something to go wrong.
* The material requirements for building something pre-patch will be the same as building that something post patch.
* People who have stupidly over-researched blueprints with high sentimental value, still keep their stupidly high sentimental value blueprints.
* You can still stupidly over-research your blueprints if you really want to. The UI will show you how much you benefit (or don't.) Installation costs will make this rare. If someone wants to be stupid, why should the game stop them?
* People who over-researched a blueprint in order to sell copies still get their blueprints to say 10% SAVINGS! If they are priced the same as the guy with the 9.9% BPC, they will sell first. If they are priced too high, the buyer will think, "for 0.1% I'm not going to pay that."
* With a constant time to research, it does not blow up into the stupid range for capital ships and supers.
* Patch day does not hand out blueprints which would take multiple years of researching to achieve after the patch.
* Whether or not to research, and how high to research your blueprints is actually a meaningful choice again for all levels of blueprints. .....When it takes 4 days to research a module from 0 to perfect, nobody will NOT do that. Everyone will be building from perfect blueprints. Researching is nothing but a time sink. Why not have NPCs sell the blueprints at perfect already? .....When researching a Moros blueprint from 7 to 8 locks up one of your science lines for 6 1/2 months and you get an ROI in the 4 year range, nobody will ever do that unless they are taking a leave of absense from the game. Everyone will stop at ME7 except those grandfathered in with better blueprints on patch day. Why not have NPCs sell the blueprints at ME7?
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LHA Tarawa
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
991
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Posted - 2014.05.08 20:05:00 -
[839] - Quote
Weaselior wrote:LHA Tarawa wrote: And explain it to me in real simple terms, because with only a 140 IQ, I seem unable to understand how screwing people over is a good thing.
ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha *gasp* *wheeze* hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha you know those internet tests generally set their baseline at like 150 so you pay for the report on what a genius you are right you must have really blown it to get a 140 that's like dog-level on their scale
Oh...well that makes perfectly clear what you like about the new system.
Thanks for the explanation.
In addition to thinking the best feature is how people are being screwed over, the sumary of your argument for the current release is insults.
Again, thanks. |
DireNecessity
The M.P.I. The Marmite Collective
45
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Posted - 2014.05.08 20:09:00 -
[840] - Quote
Ronny Hugo wrote:I welcome this change with open arms. Even though I have quite a number of BPOs with high levels and have spent ages researching. To anyone who don't want this change because they have invested so much time and effort into researching into insane levels: Read about the sunk-cost fallacy. We are not going to invest millions of hours into the old system just because we've invested millions of hours into it already. Seith Kali wrote:You can save BPC copying as a profession by introducing copy-speed research and re-scaling TE to make it far more relevant.
Maintain the base copy-speed on everything as it is, and have it reach the desired value at Copy Level 10. What do you mean by saving copying as a profession? Everyone will be using copies! Even the ones who own the BPOs will use BPCs. This will only increase the BPC market size. While prices will go down for individual copies, the total amount of copies traded multiplied by price will be larger. Its like comparing aluminium prices in 1850-1900 with aluminium prices today. While the prices was so high in 1850-1900 that Napoleon supposedly ate off aluminium plates, people earn way more from aluminium today than back then, because we now deal with millions of tons instead of grams.
Keep in mind that the old niche being discussed was the ability to polish the ME apple just a tiny bit more thereby giving one's blueprint copies just a tad more curb appeal than the neighboring competition (with my apologies for mixing metaphors). Accordingly, it was an ME quality competition.
With ME research now actually topping out (and assuming I understand Seith Kali correctly), blueprint copy sellers could have two new avenues of competition to pursue: TE polishing (still a quality competition) and copy speed research (a quantity competition).
So a new challenge to the blueprint copiers, GÇ£Any suggestions on how to transfer old BPOs hard won (but now superfluous) ME polishing to the new avenues of competition that still retain a modicum of your hard work without forever preventing newer players from competing?GÇ¥ |
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