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Drone Damage: Ishtar vs Dominix - Broke?

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infraX Caldari Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.17 11:41:00 - [91] As a further test, you might want to see how many (let's choose light missiles) it takes to kill a drone from a dominix, and then see how many for an ishtar. If the 10% damage is infact only 5% on the ishtar, then perhaps the drone hp bonus is incorrect aswell.
Dahak2150	Posted - 2006.11.17 12:00:00 - [92] Originally by: Chronus26 Originally by: Sabine Borgia well i use ishtar too and somehow with vespa II the dmg is reall low gainst serpentis in compare to my astartes 5 hobgobs II Thats because Hobgoblins = Thermal, Vespas = Kinetic and Serpentis are weakest to Thermic. Since we're all just waiting for CCP to answer, figured I'd correct this. No. Wrong. Serps have lowest kinetic resists. It makes sense. Gallente guns are hybrids. Hybrids deal more kinetic than thermal. Thermal bonuses on Gallente ships are pretty much nonexistant, so even though it's their racial damage type, they really don't show it much. If you're on IE, pretend this is transparent while you get a better browser.
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:40:00 - [93] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 17/11/2006 16:45:22 Hmmm, interesting. Could we please get some dev input on this, is +5% or +10% what it should really be? If it's now +5%, has it always been that way or has there been a stealth nerf? Oh well, maybe the prices of Ishtars will drop a bit now. In any case, could we please get a fix on this ship so that the info agrees with the actual stats (whatever they are)? Added: if it really is +5%, then I see the Myrmidon in a new light. I still don't think it's very good, but it might not be quite as crappy as I thought compared to the Ishtar. We'd have 4 heavies with +50% damage bonus vs 5 heavies with +25% damage bonus (with max skills), making it 6 vs 6.25 "effective" drones... Ishtar still more drone DPS, but not that much, and Myrmidon with more gun firepower.
Miklas Laces A.N.A.R.C.H.I.C.A	Posted - 2006.11.17 16:52:00 - [94] Yes please some official word on this.
Varia Net	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:21:00 - [95] Being Caldari, I trained Gallente ship skills up to battleship, to fly the Rattlesnake. I already had training for Cerberus; and was considering Gallente cruiser lvl 5, for an Ishtar, as it appeared superior, compared to Dominix. I must say that I won't be doing it now, and actually do like the actual 5% compared to Domi's 10%. It just didn't make sense that a HAC would do as much drone damage as a bs, while having much better resists. -Assuming that drones (and nosferatus) are much more important than guns to droneboats.- Noone complains about the Cerberus, yet it doesn't have the dps output of a Raven or CNR. The resists and speed are their main strength, while the dps output isn't exactly low either. My 2c.
Commander Nikolas Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:42:00 - [96] It needs to be put back to 10%... it has the drone DPS of the Domi... but the Domi can fit heavy NOS, Electron II's... you ever try to put guns on an Ishtar? This is a low blow and needs to be fixed.
Mandabar Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.11.17 18:44:00 - [97] Originally by: Varia Net Being Caldari, I trained Gallente ship skills up to battleship, to fly the Rattlesnake. I already had training for Cerberus; and was considering Gallente cruiser lvl 5, for an Ishtar, as it appeared superior, compared to Dominix. I must say that I won't be doing it now, and actually do like the actual 5% compared to Domi's 10%. It just didn't make sense that a HAC would do as much drone damage as a bs, while having much better resists. -Assuming that drones (and nosferatus) are much more important than guns to droneboats.- Noone complains about the Cerberus, yet it doesn't have the dps output of a Raven or CNR. The resists and speed are their main strength, while the dps output isn't exactly low either. My 2c. The Problem with this comment is, the vexor (t1 version of Ishtar (if you really didn' know...)) has a 10% bonus.. that is in effect.
Nir Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:20:00 - [98] Originally by: Miklas Laces Yes please some official word on this. Its clearly a bug, no way would this have gone unnoticed for so long. You expect a dev reply to simple bugs now? Bug report ftw
Iroquois	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:27:00 - [99] Originally by: Nir Originally by: Miklas Laces Yes please some official word on this. Its clearly a bug, no way would this have gone unnoticed for so long. You expect a dev reply to simple bugs now? Bug report ftw If a dev happens to read this thread, then yeah, I expect him to comment. How fricken hard can it be to level with the people who pay for this service? Bug reports or not, Devs sometimes reply in many threads in this forum.
Nir Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:39:00 - [100] ^^^ I just cringe everytime I see a thread with the suffix "OMG TUXFORDZZZZ READ DIZ NOWWWW!!!!11" or similar. Its getting to the point where everyone expects a one on one with a developer of their choice. I apologize for coming across so anal. :p
Commander Nikolas Gallente Arcana Imperii Ltd.	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:51:00 - [101] I would expect soomone who knows what is going on... to explain what is going on (i.e. devs) when there are questions about game content... Honestly given how much CCP explains about game mechanics you can hardly tell what is a bug/error and what is intentional these days. Hyperion... could have swore to god when I saw it's stats it was an error... Then the devs said... "no, that is the ship less than a megathron but twice as expensive"
Vladimir Norkoff Crimson Knights Trade Federation	Posted - 2006.11.17 19:58:00 - [102] Originally by: Mandabar The Problem with this comment is, the vexor (t1 version of Ishtar (if you really didn' know...)) has a 10% bonus.. that is in effect. Yes, but a Vexor can't carry a full complement of 5 Heavy Drones... Plus another full complement of 5 Heavy Drones... Plus a full complement of 5 Medium Drones... Plus another full complement of 5 Medium Drones... And.. plus a full complement of 5 Light Drones... See a slight difference there? Something about 375m3 drone bay vs a mere 75m3??.. Small balance issue? Maybe?
Rastigan	Posted - 2006.11.17 21:55:00 - [103] Yes, its called the third and fourth bonus, every HAC has them, the Ishtars happens to be +50m3 drone capacity per level. This is not about what you think is balance, this is about a broken part of the game, which people would like a dev response to. Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: Mandabar The Problem with this comment is, the vexor (t1 version of Ishtar (if you really didn' know...)) has a 10% bonus.. that is in effect. Yes, but a Vexor can't carry a full complement of 5 Heavy Drones... Plus another full complement of 5 Heavy Drones... Plus a full complement of 5 Medium Drones... Plus another full complement of 5 Medium Drones... And.. plus a full complement of 5 Light Drones... See a slight difference there? Something about 375m3 drone bay vs a mere 75m3??.. Small balance issue? Maybe?
Vladimir Norkoff Crimson Knights Trade Federation	Posted - 2006.11.17 22:59:00 - [104] Originally by: Rastigan This is not about what you think is balance, this is about a broken part of the game, which people would like a dev response to. Hmmm... Enlighten me, please.. What is the broken part?.. Is it that a HAC only gets a 5% bonus to drone damage, hp, etc to it's battleship size drone bay?.. Or is it the fact that they put in a stealth nerf and we are just finding out about it now?.. Note - I'm currently training up for Ishtar atm, so it's not like I'm against Gallente.. But honestly, a HAC should NOT do BS class damage..
nexvis	Posted - 2006.11.17 23:30:00 - [105] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: Rastigan This is not about what you think is balance, this is about a broken part of the game, which people would like a dev response to. Hmmm... Enlighten me, please.. What is the broken part?.. Is it that a HAC only gets a 5% bonus to drone damage, hp, etc to it's battleship size drone bay?.. Or is it the fact that they put in a stealth nerf and we are just finding out about it now?.. Note - I'm currently training up for Ishtar atm, so it's not like I'm against Gallente.. But honestly, a HAC should NOT do BS class damage.. Well that's certainly a nice opinion you have there, unfortunately it's fully irrelevant. Two reason why: 1) you don't matter 2) the ship bonus is displayed as 10%, it is not recieving its full damage bonus, it is thusly broken
Vladimir Norkoff Crimson Knights Trade Federation	Posted - 2006.11.17 23:53:00 - [106] Originally by: nexvis Well that's certainly a nice opinion you have there, unfortunately it's fully irrelevant. Two reason why: 1) you don't matter 2) the ship bonus is displayed as 10%, it is not recieving its full damage bonus, it is thusly broken Well thankyou for your very valid, and (might I add) very well thought out response!.. I particularly like the way you so skillfully and logically rebutted my comments.. Furthermore, your ability to so succintly and accurately answer the question at hand truly amazes me.. You sir, are an orator and debator of the top rank.. I bow to your wisdom and excellence in all things.. /mockery So to sum up your idiocy, you are basically saying that you are upset that the description says 10% bonus when in actuality it is only 5%, and thus a cruiser is not doing battleship class damage with a battleship size dronebay??.. That about sum it up ace?.. That's great.. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your definition of the word "broken"?.. CCP stealth nerfed us, get used to it.. Throwing a pouty little tantrum isn't going to help..
nexvis	Posted - 2006.11.18 00:12:00 - [107] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: nexvis Well that's certainly a nice opinion you have there, unfortunately it's fully irrelevant. Two reason why: 1) you don't matter 2) the ship bonus is displayed as 10%, it is not recieving its full damage bonus, it is thusly broken Well thankyou for your very valid, and (might I add) very well thought out response!.. I particularly like the way you so skillfully and logically rebutted my comments.. Furthermore, your ability to so succintly and accurately answer the question at hand truly amazes me.. You sir, are an orator and debator of the top rank.. I bow to your wisdom and excellence in all things.. /mockery So to sum up your idiocy, you are basically saying that you are upset that the description says 10% bonus when in actuality it is only 5%, and thus a cruiser is not doing battleship class damage with a battleship size dronebay??.. That about sum it up ace?.. That's great.. Perhaps you should re-evaluate your definition of the word "broken"?.. CCP stealth nerfed us, get used to it.. Throwing a pouty little tantrum isn't going to help.. classic either the description or the bonus is not correct, this isn't a difficult concept to wrap your dense little head around. Your opinion on the damage output of a HAC has no bearing in this discussion, get over yourself; as I said, you and your asinine little opinion simply do not matter. Either the description or the bonus needs to be changed. /debate
Vladimir Norkoff Crimson Knights Trade Federation	Posted - 2006.11.18 01:22:00 - [108] Originally by: nexvis classic either the description or the bonus is not correct, this isn't a difficult concept to wrap your dense little head around. Your opinion on the damage output of a HAC has no bearing in this discussion, get over yourself; as I said, you and your asinine little opinion simply do not matter. Either the description or the bonus needs to be changed. /debate LOL.. Got some hate issues there? Sorry if I popped you, or sorry if you're just an angry kid.. It's amazing, you're basically agreeing to everything I'm saying - the bonus is no longer what is listed and CCP stealth nerfed us.. Not quite sure why that requires the personal flamage, but whatever.. Sure it'd be nice to have CCP change the description from 10% to the 5% it actually is.. And it woulda been nice if they told us up front.. But it certainly isn't something to get overly fired up about.. And it's certainly a change that made sense.. P.S. You can update your corp and alliance info fairly easily.. I'm sure you're not the type of person to hide behind an alt..
Rastigan Ars Caelestis Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.18 01:45:00 - [109] Before you compare the Ishtar to the Dominix, you do know the Ishtar can only mount 3 turrets , compared to 6 turrets for the Dominix, heck even the T1 Vexor can mount 4 turrets. Not to mention the CPU and Powergrid of the Ishtar is craptastic at best. The Ishtar is much more drone dependant on damage than the Dominix.
nexvis	Posted - 2006.11.18 02:13:00 - [110] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: nexvis classic either the description or the bonus is not correct, this isn't a difficult concept to wrap your dense little head around. Your opinion on the damage output of a HAC has no bearing in this discussion, get over yourself; as I said, you and your asinine little opinion simply do not matter. Either the description or the bonus needs to be changed. /debate LOL.. Got some hate issues there? Sorry if I popped you, or sorry if you're just an angry kid.. It's amazing, you're basically agreeing to everything I'm saying - the bonus is no longer what is listed and CCP stealth nerfed us.. Not quite sure why that requires the personal flamage, but whatever.. Sure it'd be nice to have CCP change the description from 10% to the 5% it actually is.. And it woulda been nice if they told us up front.. But it certainly isn't something to get overly fired up about.. And it's certainly a change that made sense.. P.S. You can update your corp and alliance info fairly easily.. I'm sure you're not the type of person to hide behind an alt.. Actually I've never heard of you nor your corp. Remember that thing about you not mattering? You asked me to reevaluate my definition of 'broken,' citing the ship's damage output as your reasoning, all while missing the entire point of my post with the eloquence and self-satisfaction of a fat chick eating a stick of butter. Thus, the "personal flamage." And by the way, if I could log my main in, I wouldn't be posting with an alt. Many thanks to the powerful software backbone of the eve-o forums.
Vladimir Norkoff Crimson Knights Trade Federation	Posted - 2006.11.18 03:21:00 - [111] Originally by: nexvis Rabble rabble rabble. Nexvis, stop being an angry little troll.. Pretty visual imagery is not an adequate defense for your point.. Your point being that the description says 10% bonus and you think it should be 10%.. You offer no other reasons than "it says 10%".. CCP apparently disagrees.. Deal with it.. Originally by: Rastigan Before you compare the Ishtar to the Dominix, you do know the Ishtar can only mount 3 turrets , compared to 6 turrets for the Dominix, heck even the T1 Vexor can mount 4 turrets. Not to mention the CPU and Powergrid of the Ishtar is craptastic at best. The Ishtar is much more drone dependant on damage than the Dominix. Yep, and those 3 turrets usually end up being small rails/blasters (ie. useless) thanks to the craptastic grid as you already pointed out.. (And we'll ignore the fact that the Vexor has the same exact problem despite it's 4 turret slots).. The Ishtar is absolutely dependent on drones for damage. No argument there.. And no, obviously it's not going to do the same damage as a full gank-fitted Domi with 6x T2 Neutrons etc.. But most Domis aren't fitted full-gank.. Most like to live thru fights, so you end up seeing Dual 250s or ions mixed with nos, and stuff like armor and reppers in the lows.. So most domis currently still do a good proportion of their damage from drones (about 400 dps from drones and 200 dps from guns in most common set-ups - max skills).. If an Ishtar were getting the 10% bonus too, it'd come in on the very low end of battleship level damage, just without the big guns.. With a 5% bonus the Ishtar still comes in on the very high side of HAC damage.. Downside being that drones can be destroyed..
nexvis	Posted - 2006.11.18 03:54:00 - [112] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Nexvis, stop being an angry little troll.. Pretty visual imagery is not an adequate defense for your point.. Your point being that the description says 10% bonus and you think it should be 10%.. You offer no other reasons than "it says 10%".. CCP apparently disagrees.. Deal with it.. My god, how can you be so entirely oblivious? My point, again, is that either the description or the bonus need to be changed. 10% is displayed, 5% is given, entirely regardless of what you think it should be to be balanced, there is an error that needs to be fixed. Be it the description, or the bonus. I never once said what I thought the bonus should be, because that has no bearing on this thread. All I said is that it's not recieving it's full damage bonus, which is displayed as 10%. It doesn't matter, not one little bit, what you think CCP thinks, it's not recieving the displayed bonus.
Morbain	Posted - 2006.11.18 04:25:00 - [113] The bickering isn't helping the issue. The Ishtar is stated as having a 10% bonus. In reality is is shown to have a 5% bonus. Either that is an error in the description or that is an error in the stat. Either way we, and possibly CCP are being mislead by this. To get this post looked at by the devs requires you to stop bickering and state the facts. Don't bother responding to my post, I will likely not read this thread again. <!-- STOP READING HERE IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT --> My personal belief is that the Ishtar is a tech 2, "completely dedicated drone carrier," and therefore should be treated as such. The Dominix is a battleship, a tech 1 and also the only place in the description where it mentions drones is the bonus. From that I conclude, my opinion here, that the Ishtar is a drone carrier and deserves the drone bonus... Plus I want one. /greed
FraXy Caldari Devils Rejects	Posted - 2006.11.18 06:05:00 - [114] Good thing i sold my Ishtar because i couldn`t use T2 drones. No wait, /emote looks at Drone Interface 5 that is 60% done....... ERROR!!! Can we please get a Dev confirmation on the Ishtar or do i have to swim over to Iceland and knock on ur doors at 4am? This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
FraXy Caldari Devils Rejects	Posted - 2006.11.18 06:07:00 - [115] Originally by: Rastigan Before you compare the Ishtar to the Dominix, you do know the Ishtar can only mount 3 turrets , compared to 6 turrets for the Dominix, heck even the T1 Vexor can mount 4 turrets. Not to mention the CPU and Powergrid of the Ishtar is craptastic at best. The Ishtar is much more drone dependant on damage than the Dominix. Not to mention if u actually are looking to fit a tank fitting guns is like fitting Shield Power Relays on a Claymore with 3 gang-links and XL II fitted. This is my lazy attempt to make an uber-signature, please go away!
Justice Bringer Minmatar United Univers	Posted - 2006.11.18 10:46:00 - [116] At the end of the day all that matters is what the description states, and not people's opinions on what the descriptions should be interpreted as. From the Vexor the description states: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield per skill level. From the Ishtar the description says: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level. From the Vexor Navy Issue it says: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield per skill level. From the Guardian Vexor it states: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and +1 extra Drone controlled per level. This is not my opinion, these are the descriptions as I've copied them from the different ships. They all share the same hull design and after Cold War patch the only one that remained unchained was the Guardian Vexor in its ability to field the extra drone. The 3 other Vexor class ships all received the increase to drone damage and hitpoints, and you will take note that the Ishtar doesn't receive the mining drone yield. Now that would be a waste of a ship . So for those people that think that the Ishtar out damages the Dominix, then you're missing the point. Dominix has 6 large turret slots to Ishtar 3 med turret slots. So (6 large + 5 heavy) >>> (3 med + 5 heavy) period. Prsonally I don't mind if the actual damage is only half that of the Vexor, but then they should change the description and re-instate the +1 drone because as it stands the Ishtar puts out less damage with its medium drones than the Vexor which is wrong. If that's not the case, then the damage done by the drones should do exactly as it says on the tin. Consider this: Moa: Special Ability: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistance per level. Eagle: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistances per level. Now consider the scenario where the Eagle says it has the 5% resists and the 10% optimal, but actually only has 2.5% resists and 5% optimal. Now where would you all sit with that one? Cerberus - Caracal, Zealot - Omen, Deimos - Thorax.........!!!!!!!! Justice
FourFourTwo Gallente Wise Guys	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:20:00 - [117] Originally by: Justice Bringer At the end of the day all that matters is what the description states, and not people's opinions on what the descriptions should be interpreted as. From the Vexor the description states: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield per skill level. From the Ishtar the description says: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level. From the Vexor Navy Issue it says: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints, damage and mining yield per skill level. From the Guardian Vexor it states: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage per level and +1 extra Drone controlled per level. This is not my opinion, these are the descriptions as I've copied them from the different ships. They all share the same hull design and after Cold War patch the only one that remained unchained was the Guardian Vexor in its ability to field the extra drone. The 3 other Vexor class ships all received the increase to drone damage and hitpoints, and you will take note that the Ishtar doesn't receive the mining drone yield. Now that would be a waste of a ship . So for those people that think that the Ishtar out damages the Dominix, then you're missing the point. Dominix has 6 large turret slots to Ishtar 3 med turret slots. So (6 large + 5 heavy) >>> (3 med + 5 heavy) period. Prsonally I don't mind if the actual damage is only half that of the Vexor, but then they should change the description and re-instate the +1 drone because as it stands the Ishtar puts out less damage with its medium drones than the Vexor which is wrong. If that's not the case, then the damage done by the drones should do exactly as it says on the tin. Consider this: Moa: Special Ability: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistance per level. Eagle: Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range per level and 5% bonus to shield resistances per level. Now consider the scenario where the Eagle says it has the 5% resists and the 10% optimal, but actually only has 2.5% resists and 5% optimal. Now where would you all sit with that one? Cerberus - Caracal, Zealot - Omen, Deimos - Thorax.........!!!!!!!! Justice Amen. - Fix it now!!
Demoria Office linebackers Center for Disease Creation	Posted - 2006.11.18 11:20:00 - [118] CCP scammed me!! ------------------------------------------ i am the flying moo ham edd
Pan Crastus	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:15:00 - [119] BTW., this is another fine example why the part of the ship descriptions with the bonuses needs to be generated from the actual bonus values and types in the DB and not hand-written ...
nexvis	Posted - 2006.11.18 13:22:00 - [120] Originally by: Justice Bringer So for those people that think that the Ishtar out damages the Dominix, then you're missing the point. Dominix has 6 large turret slots to Ishtar 3 med turret slots. So (6 large + 5 heavy) >>> (3 med + 5 heavy) period. Prsonally I don't mind if the actual damage is only half that of the Vexor, but then they should change the description and re-instate the +1 drone because as it stands the Ishtar puts out less damage with its medium drones than the Vexor which is wrong. besides, whoever heard of a HAC doing battleship class damage? Hell, I have T1 cruisers in my hangar that outdamage the ishtar by a significant margin. /me hides the miracle that is the 600dps gank-ion thorax

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