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Drone Damage: Ishtar vs Dominix - Broke?

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Moostang	Posted - 2006.06.04 22:11:00 - [1] Edited by: Moostang on 04/06/2006 22:11:33 Just bought a brand new Ishtar and started running agent 4's. First mission I received was Vengence. For those of you that do not know, it has a 2.5 mil bounty Boss NPC pirate in the last level. I have been doing agent 4's in a dominix for quite some time now and have had no issues what-so-ever doing them. The boss rat tends to take a while to kill with my current drone skills (in a domi) but is very killable with just my drones alone. Well, in my shiney new Ishtar, my drones cannot break the npc boss's tank. Ishtar has the same bonus as the domi to drone damage except it is based on the cruiser skill (lvl 5 required to pilot ishtar) and the domi is based on the Battleship skill (currently lvl 3). So, I decided to run some tests and this is what I found. ------------------------- First of all, my relavant skills: Drone Interfacing - lvl 4 Drone Navigation - lvl 3 Drone Sharpshooting - lvl 4 Drones - lvl 5 Heavy Drone Ops - lvl 3 Battleship - lvl 3 Cruiser - lvl 5 ------------------------- Ishtar Bonus: Gallente Cruiser Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level. Lvl 5 cruiser = 50% more drone damage. ------------------------- Dominix Bonus: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 10% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per skill level. Lvl 3 Battleship = 30% more drone damage. ------------------------- Test variables: I ran 3 tests in each ship. I used one EM Heavy drone (Praetor). I attacked for approximately one minute which ended up being 26 hits. Target is a dominix with 0 em resists (shield only). ------------------------- Ishtar Results: Damage - Ishtar test 1 Hits26 Attack Time1 minute Total1823.5 Average70.13461538 DPS30.39166667 Damage - Ishtar test 2 Hits26 Attack Time1 minute Total1937.2 Average74.50769231 DPS32.28666667 Damage - Ishtar test 3 Hits26 Attack Time1 minute Total1826.9 Average70.26538462 DPS30.44833333 ------------------------- Dominix Results: Damage - Dominix test 1 Hits26 Attack Time1 minute Total2252.1 Average86.61923077 DPS37.535 Damage - Dominix test 2 Hits26 Attack Time1 minute Total1821.3 Average70.05 DPS30.355 Damage - Dominix test 3 Hits26 Attack Time1 minute Total1924.2 Average74.00769231 DPS32.07 ------------------------- With my current skills, the Ishtar should be doing 20% more damage than the dominix. These tests show that the drone damages of the ishtar are not what they should be. Raw Data
Minyon	Posted - 2006.06.04 22:42:00 - [2] if you do the math it looks like your domi is doing about the right damage 1.15 (drone damage) x 1.15 (heavy skill) x 1.8 (interfaceing) x 1.3 (domi skill) x 24 = 74 Average But the dps does look lower than it should be if you get avreage hits of 74 every 2 seconds you should get 37 dps (maybe its your maths) But as you results show the ishtar doing the same damage as the domi for most of the time i dont see why you couldnt kill the Boss NPC maybe he was just tanking more than normal.
Miistang	Posted - 2006.06.04 22:55:00 - [3] Originally by: Minyon But the dps does look lower than it should be if you get avreage hits of 74 every 2 seconds you should get 37 dps (maybe its your maths) I was dividing the total damage for the one minute duration and dividing it by 60 (seconds). Originally by: Minyon But as you results show the ishtar doing the same damage as the domi for most of the time i dont see why you couldnt kill the Boss NPC maybe he was just tanking more than normal. I agree that the domi is doing about what it should be. But the ishtar should be doing 20% more damage than the domi, but it seems to be doing less, which is my problem.
Deva Blackfire	Posted - 2006.06.04 23:30:00 - [4] Actually only 15% more damage (1.5 divided by 1.3). Also dunno what you are killing but for PvE preators arent too good idea. Sansha/bloods - use thermal drones guristas - use kinetic angels - use explo (iirc) serpentis - kinetic or thermal (cant be bothered to ceck their resists atm) EM drones are worst in every case mostly because of their low dmg modifier.
Nyphur	Posted - 2006.06.05 00:46:00 - [5] 26 hits may not be statistically significant enough to prove a deviation of the percentage you're looking to prove. Try groups of a few hundred hits, maybe? Eve-Tanking.com - For tanking spreadsheet and resources.
Moostang	Posted - 2006.06.05 00:56:00 - [6] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Actually only 15% more damage (1.5 divided by 1.3). Not sure what the 1.5 and 1.3 numbers you're talking about are but this is where I got 20% more. Ishtar bonus = 10% per level of cruiser Dominix Bonus = 10% bonus per level of battleship My skills Cruiser lvl 5 = 50% bonus Battleship lvl 3 = 30% bonus 50-30=20 20% difference bonus from the two ship types. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also dunno what you are killing but for PvE preators arent too good idea. EM drones are worst in every case mostly because of their low dmg modifier. I was not using praetors for pve, I was using them to test with since they do the only damage type that ships have a base 0% (shields). Originally by: Nyphur 26 hits may not be statistically significant enough to prove a deviation of the percentage you're looking to prove. Try groups of a few hundred hits, maybe? Perhaps so, which is why I did 3 sets of 26 for testing. I'll work on a more extensive test when I have more time. [CLS] Moostang Celestial Horizon "G" Spot Division Ascendant Frontier
Hub Quantum	Posted - 2006.06.05 00:58:00 - [7] In your domi test alone you have a deviation of more than 20% (Domi test 1 (37.535)/ domi test 2 (30.355) = 1.236) in your three sample tests which considering you're measuring a difference of 15% you should increase your population statistics (More samples). Increasing your population statistics and I'd wager you'd see things normalize and eventually give way to the ishtar.
Hub Quantum	Posted - 2006.06.05 01:07:00 - [8] Originally by: Moostang Originally by: Deva Blackfire Actually only 15% more damage (1.5 divided by 1.3). Not sure what the 1.5 and 1.3 numbers you're talking about are but this is where I got 20% more. Ishtar bonus = 10% per level of cruiser Dominix Bonus = 10% bonus per level of battleship My skills Cruiser lvl 5 = 50% bonus Battleship lvl 3 = 30% bonus 50-30=20 20% difference bonus from the two ship types. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Also dunno what you are killing but for PvE preators arent too good idea. EM drones are worst in every case mostly because of their low dmg modifier. I was not using praetors for pve, I was using them to test with since they do the only damage type that ships have a base 0% (shields). Originally by: Nyphur 26 hits may not be statistically significant enough to prove a deviation of the percentage you're looking to prove. Try groups of a few hundred hits, maybe? Perhaps so, which is why I did 3 sets of 26 for testing. I'll work on a more extensive test when I have more time. 1.3 is the lowest value, you're not measuring from 100% but the already 130% you have on your domi. Therefore if you are using a drone which does 100 damage (with all other factors included), he now does 130, 20% on top of that would mean he would do 156, which he won't do, he will do 100*1.5 for 150. It's just over a 15% difference. And before someone corrects me, of course that 100 damage drone is entirely hypothetical and is going to be affected by other factors such as DI, but the fundamental difference between your gallente BS 3 and cruiser 5 in a hac is a 1.153 difference the 100 damage drone is to easily explain it.
OrangeAfroMan	Posted - 2006.06.05 01:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Moostang Originally by: Nyphur 26 hits may not be statistically significant enough to prove a deviation of the percentage you're looking to prove. Try groups of a few hundred hits, maybe? Perhaps so, which is why I did 3 sets of 26 for testing. I'll work on a more extensive test when I have more time. But its still only basing the percentage on the 26 hits, three times. Try it over maybe 150 hits and see whacha get :) Gronsak is Tux's angry alt.
jamesw	Posted - 2006.06.05 01:17:00 - [10] who cares for specifics.... both ships are pwn -- NEW Vid: Watch Things Die
Leuthispar Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:10:00 - [11] Everyone wrote conclusions and what they though but i guess the didnt read the part when you typed it couldnt break the tank on the boss... hmmm Lack of Reading Comprehension FTL. LOL
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:13:00 - [12] dominix > ishtar everytime except perhaps in mobile fleets. dont know why anyone buys ishtar tbh except to ponce around in .
Benglada Finite Horizon The Red Skull	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:30:00 - [13] Originally by: slothe to ponce around in . Thats pretty much the only reason =) --------------------------- Originally by: Arkanor 0.0 is the Final Frontier. Bring money and friends.
Commander Thrawn Tarnak inc. Eternal Empire	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:40:00 - [14] just to make sure, are you fitting blaster on these ships or just nos?
KillmAll187	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:49:00 - [15] Edited by: KillmAll187 on 11/11/2006 04:51:05 I have noticed the same thing TBH. When I finished Drone Interfacing V, the Ishtar seemed to do LESS damage. I fly an Eos and can kill NPC's with drones only and it feels just as fast as the Ishtar. What gives?
slothe Caldari Forsaken Empire	Posted - 2006.11.11 04:56:00 - [16] Originally by: Commander Thrawn just to make sure, are you fitting blaster on these ships or just nos? since nos have limited effect it would make sense to fit guns of some kind.
Father Weebles RoadKill Pickup Services	Posted - 2006.11.11 05:02:00 - [17] Originally by: Moostang Edited by: Moostang on 04/06/2006 22:11:33Heavy Drone Ops - lvl 3 theres your problem "Welcome to EVE, where inflation is out of control."
Mr. Orange Gallente Band of Freelancers	Posted - 2006.11.11 05:39:00 - [18] Originally by: Deva Blackfire Actually only 15% more damage (1.5 divided by 1.3). Also dunno what you are killing but for PvE preators arent too good idea. Sansha/bloods - use thermal drones guristas - use kinetic angels - use explo (iirc) serpentis - kinetic or thermal (cant be bothered to ceck their resists atm) EM drones are worst in every case mostly because of their low dmg modifier. Wrong, EM drones are used on Bloods and Sansha as their weakest Shield and Armor resistance is EM.
Linavin Mercurialis Inc. Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2006.11.11 06:23:00 - [19] Originally by: Mr. Orange Wrong, EM drones are used on Bloods and Sansha as their weakest Shield and Armor resistance is EM. Compare the actual damage delt by the drones, the fact that praetors do a lot less dps than ogres make ogres more efficent vs sanshas and bloods. I personally think EM drones need boosting, right now they don't have any statistical specialty compared to other drones (speed goes to minmatar, damage goes to gallente, caldari have a mix of damage and speed but have the most hitpoints) The poor damage makes EM drones almost useless, not only is EM a poor damage type in the first place, but the lack of damage adds insult to injury. Back on topic, you should really get more results to prove conclusively that the damage bonus isn't being applied. Try domis at bs lvl 4 and 5 too. --- Quote: "Seleene is Primary." "She isn't here." "She's still primary."
Sabine Borgia Amarr Antares Frontier	Posted - 2006.11.11 08:40:00 - [20] well i use ishtar too and somehow with vespa II the dmg is reall low gainst serpentis in compare to my astartes 5 hobgobs II
Chronus26 Gallente Dark Blood Contracts	Posted - 2006.11.11 08:52:00 - [21] Originally by: Sabine Borgia well i use ishtar too and somehow with vespa II the dmg is reall low gainst serpentis in compare to my astartes 5 hobgobs II Thats because Hobgoblins = Thermal, Vespas = Kinetic and Serpentis are weakest to Thermic. ----- Move along, nothing to see here...
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.11 09:53:00 - [22] Sure sounds broke to me. Do you have some extra guns or nos or something on your domi that could be making a diff? (I don't know if nos works on npc or not).
Yarek Balear The Initiative	Posted - 2006.11.11 10:06:00 - [23] Few people appear to be missing the point from the OP... The issue isn't so much the NPC he's fighting, the issue is that the Ishtar should do a lot more damage (15% more) than the Domi and in the test it doesn't... Agree with a few of the guys who suggested longer more prolonged testing might be more effective in demonstrating your results for comparison, but even if you aggregate the three tests together you get 5587.6 over 3 minutes on the Ishtar and 5997.6 over 3 minutes on the Domi. There is no real explanation over that time on why a Domi should out-damage your Ishtar with the same drone against the same target under the same conditions, so I agree - looks like the Ishtar is borked and further supports the reason why there's no real benefit in flying the ship over the Insurable/Cheaper/Higher DPS domi.
Sir Bart Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2006.11.11 10:19:00 - [24] If you pretend the ishtar's bonus is 5% instead of 10% per level it justifies these numbers, I think that you found a bug Moostang and should report it. domi bonus = 30% with yoru skills if ishtar has 25% (assuming your level 5 and they got the bonus wrong) we get: 1.3 / 1.25 = 1.07 and your test shows: 5997.6 / 5587.6 = 1.07 So... yeah, who's gonna file the bug report?
Yarek Balear The Initiative	Posted - 2006.11.11 10:50:00 - [25] Originally by: Sir Bart If you pretend the ishtar's bonus is 5% instead of 10% per level it justifies these numbers, I think that you found a bug Moostang and should report it. domi bonus = 30% with yoru skills if ishtar has 25% (assuming your level 5 and they got the bonus wrong) we get: 1.3 / 1.25 = 1.07 and your test shows: 5997.6 / 5587.6 = 1.07 So... yeah, who's gonna file the bug report? Ooh, well spotted...
dalman Finite Horizon	Posted - 2006.11.11 11:29:00 - [26] Edited by: dalman on 11/11/2006 11:31:48 Yes, it does indeed look like the ishtar only get 5% per level. 78 hits with each ship is more than enough to draw conclusions. You really don't even need that many: It's quite obvious that for the "excellent hits" the ishtar scores @ 94-102, the domi instead scores @ 100-108. So the ishtar bonus is surely 5% and not 10% per level. Personally I think that's a good thing, but anyway either the bonus or description should be changed... And "OMGWTHGETOUTOFHERE" @ the people who completely fail to read the op and instead talks random crap. Am I forced to have any regret? I've become the lie, beautiful and free In my righteous own mind I adore and preach the insanity you gave to me
Kur'Dekaija Solidline Enterprise Kith of Venal	Posted - 2006.11.11 14:42:00 - [27] Edited by: Kur''Dekaija on 11/11/2006 14:44:15 OMG the Ishtar was nerfed without anyone knowing about it?!?!?!?!?!!?!??1111 but for real.. we need a dev or someone to clarify this EDIT: ups :P didnt read this edit 2 Wtf, someone necroed a 5 months old thread. Has already been fixed then...
Lilani Kuzma Gallente Brass Monkeys Society The SUdden Death Squad	Posted - 2006.11.11 15:12:00 - [28] The ideea is he may have fitted some item`s to help the drone`s on the dominix.... i mean the tracking part!! so therefore that may be .. the change!
Yarek Balear The Initiative	Posted - 2006.11.11 16:11:00 - [29] I don't believe it's a "good thing" that the Ishtar only gets the 5%, because then it has been well and truly nerfed with the drone changes and gets significantly less damage than it did before the drone changes were made.
Farjung Gallente TAOSP Band of Brothers	Posted - 2006.11.11 16:21:00 - [30] Edited by: Farjung on 11/11/2006 16:22:09 "Easy" way to test definitively would be to wait until you get a wrecking hit in the logs from both ships, as wrecking hit is always 3 x damage mod x damage, so you'll be able to derive what the damage mod is. I'll try and get hold of a ishtar myself and give it a go. --- Wave of Mutilation 2

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