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Changes to SOV , Power Projection & Nullsec Stagnation

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Erutpar Ambient The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance 181	Posted - 2014.07.17 09:58:00 - [871] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Rebalance, rebalance, paint job, rebalance. Lack of boldness? First we had too many Jesus features slopped on our plates. Now we have zero Jesus features. Where's the balance between Jesus and basics??!!?? DEAR CCP http://www.quickmeme.com/img/b6/b63ece67bfd4da2cd2c20fa48544e360850f87a139cc6e0361ab074e2caad995.jpg
Anthar Thebess 593	Posted - 2014.07.17 10:26:00 - [872] - Quote I think that is the reason why we lost 20k active players. (of course this is much more than 20k , as people are shifting places all the time ) Focusing on some small features while ignoring bigger issues discourages new and old players. Changes that needs to be done for higsec players : - no corp ship aggression , we have duels (this will lead corporations to be more friendly towards new players) - more secure pos/corporation asset management. (new people cannot own poses as the same roles will grant access to all corp poses. - Account API limitation. (many people don't like giving away all their informations , no more full account api, limited character api without ability to see whole account. Some new policy that will forbid enforcing by big blobs giving them full api) - Staring skills , 1 character per account making new player actually able to do something! - Reduction of new ship cost, 1 cheap ship per class in each race , so new player don't have to farm 200mil just to buy new battleship , that he will loose 3 days later. And of course every thing you have in this topic regarding sov and power projection changes. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Speedkermit Damo Demonic Retribution 295	Posted - 2014.07.17 10:29:00 - [873] - Quote The biggest obstacle to CCP ever getting around to fixing (Sov/Null/Supers/Power Projection) which are all horribly unbalanced, is many veteran players enormous sense of entitlement. I've been reading the FHC thread discussing this. It's depressing. Don't Panic.
Anthar Thebess 593	Posted - 2014.07.17 10:32:00 - [874] - Quote Speedkermit Damo wrote: The biggest obstacle to CCP ever getting around to fixing (Sov/Null/Supers/Power Projection) which are all horribly unbalanced, is many veteran players enormous sense of entitlement. I've been reading the FHC thread discussing this. It's depressing. FHC thread? Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 59	Posted - 2014.07.17 10:49:00 - [875] - Quote I just check sov structures "hitpoints" (shield+hull+structure) on evelopedia Hub - 192 500 000 TCU - 21 000 000 I've heard some ghost stories about sov "bashing", but this? Hilarious Also is this guide accurate (most of evelopedia is trash): SOV guide It's hard to work out ideas without knowing current system. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á
Anthar Thebess 593	Posted - 2014.07.17 11:48:00 - [876] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: I just check sov structures "hitpoints" (shield+hull+structure) on evelopedia Hub - 192 500 000 TCU - 21 000 000 I've heard some ghost stories about sov "bashing", but this? Hilarious Also is this guide accurate (most of evelopedia is trash): SOV guide It's hard to work out ideas without knowing current system. This EHP is nothing when you have enough supers. The issue is that you have timers , a few day ones, and multiple on Hub or a station. In order to move to this timer from the other side of eve , he needs about 30minutes. If he is few regions away - he need even less time. Amount of ehp forces you to use large numbers , and if those are sub capital numbers , a lot of time. If you use capitals or supers - this will be still enough time to drop his fleet on top of your head. Now lets assume that you where ready for this. You placed a trap. Now the next SOV nonsense come into the play : - TIDI , it kick in , and trap is turning against you , as enemy can ping for every one and bring back every friend he have , even when this friend will login to the game 4 hours later , the fight will be still there. Why? You have TIDI 10% in reality much less. So in the TIDI system pass 1h while outside in the rest of eve 10h already passed. Your modules are affected by overloaded node - you deal much less damage. Now motherships can have around 60.000.000 ehp , titans way more. But what is more important they will be repaired all the time, so in order to kill them you have to do few times more damage. Now imagine yourself 70 those ships on grid , and 200+ on the way from the all upcoming time zones , until the downtime. As long as moving large group of players+ ships AND (super)capitals from one side of eve to another will take less than time needed to kill a super under a TIDI, or kill something before timer runs out. Nothing will change, and game will be still bleeding players. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 59	Posted - 2014.07.17 12:09:00 - [877] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: This EHP is nothing when you have enough supers. The issue is that you have timers , a few day ones, and multiple on Hub or a station. In order to move to this timer from the other side of eve , he needs about 30minutes. If he is few regions away - he need even less time. Do you mean a timer that reinforce hub when holder is not present? Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á
Punctator Billionaires Club Aureus Alae 18	Posted - 2014.07.17 12:16:00 - [878] - Quote stupid ccp. let people destroy give them real power not ******* 5% boost pear skill level. let them destroy stations - let them destroy moons, planets, let them destroy gates and make thair own ships into big bomb makeing KABOOM killing half of grid. this game will die, this game is dieing for long time, because of stupid game developers. rebalances is WASTE of TIME. It is not problem one ship is better then another it is even better in fact. but one player even with 200.000.000.000SP can do notheing... and it is realy realy bad. players with skills should be able MANY like in other games - this is that simple
Anthar Thebess 593	Posted - 2014.07.17 12:51:00 - [879] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Do you mean a timer that reinforce hub when holder is not present? You reinforce ihub, usually no one is even bothering to come when you are doing this. You get timer 2d and 4h This means that in 2d and 4 hours you can come and put ihub to next reinforce timer ( not the final). So you are waiting, and alliance that owns this system, can easily attend this timer. In theory this was ok. People are from different timezones , have life... But this lead to this (those are only renter alliances, but many small holding alliances actually rent this sov from bigger entity, mostly NCPL) : Northern Associates. systems : 695 Brothers of Tangra systems : 365 Brothers of Tangra Systems : 128 If you check most of large alliances that hold space from the both blue blobs you will notice very bad things : - they own a large amount of space - space that is really used is minimal - most of the systems have 1-2 random jumps per day , and even if they are on some pipe , most of the jumps come from non associated people Why all they keep this space? Because they can drop on each of this multi day timer people from the other side of eve universe , and go back to the space they actually live within 30 minutes. Some times they don't even bother to come in full force. Just send enough people to do the job, while keeping most of the forces 2-3 regions away - because broken mobility allows them to arrive to spot within few minutes. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 59	Posted - 2014.07.17 13:13:00 - [880] - Quote So to claim system players must anchor TeritorailClaimUnits, then they may place Hubs there for benefits . To contest sovereignty they have to deploy SovereigntyBlocadeUnits in order to have possibilty to shoot Hubs which has dual reinforcement timer, one for shields and one for armor (days). Now with ability to deploy as much forces as want to anywhere they want...no wonder null is empty. This is tremendously boring. For how long have you guys been playing this way? This is most hardcore game community i've ever met. You want to claim territory shoot TCU and anchor own. Why using BCU? (who get this insanely idea, what is this? chess?). Reduce the TCU EHP a lot. 20 man suicidal raid should get this down (cruisers maybe). Remove timers from HUBs. You get attacked? Defend the thing and/or repair it. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 844	Posted - 2014.07.17 13:31:00 - [881] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: So to claim system players must anchor TeritorailClaimUnits, then they may place Hubs there for benefits . To contest sovereignty they have to deploy SovereigntyBlocadeUnits in order to have possibilty to shoot Hubs which has dual reinforcement timer, one for shields and one for armor (days). Now with ability to deploy as much forces as want to anywhere they want...no wonder null is empty. This is tremendously boring. For how long have you guys been playing this way? This is most hardcore game community i've ever met. You want to claim territory shoot TCU and anchor own. Why using BCU? (who get this insanely idea, what is this? chess?). Reduce the TCU EHP a lot. 20 man suicidal raid should get this down (cruisers maybe). Remove timers from HUBs. You get attacked? Defend the thing and/or repair it. they seem too be glorified flags that take a beating .. it shouldn't really be what determines SOV at all ... roman empire didn't dominate the world because they could protect there flags better than anyone else.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please.
Anthar Thebess 593	Posted - 2014.07.17 13:35:00 - [882] - Quote Well this was working, at least partially. Until both coalitions didn't get their numbers so high that there is no way to brake them on the timer. Because : - they will put enough people in the contested system just before timer , that putting your , will crash the node OR you will get TIDI 1% and this fight will be for next 20hours , until DT - they will put enough capitals and supers , that will block you from any thing, as DPS needed to BRAKE their spider tank is so big that again node will die , or TIDI will make this fight till the DT without ability to achieve any thing Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
SFM Hobb3s Wrecking Shots Black Legion. 93	Posted - 2014.07.17 13:53:00 - [883] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Well this was working, at least partially. Until both coalitions didn't get their numbers so high that there is no way to brake them on the timer. Because : - they will put enough people in the contested system just before timer , that putting your , will crash the node OR you will get TIDI 1% and this fight will be for next 20hours , until DT - they will put enough capitals and supers , that will block you from any thing, as DPS needed to BRAKE their spider tank is so big that again node will die , or TIDI will make this fight till the DT without ability to achieve any thing Agreed. It's too easy for ships to flood a system under tidi. To easy for reinforcements all the way across Eve to get there before any significant tidi-time passes in the contested system. With current game mechanics you'll never be able to stop gate-to-gate travel, but CCP could certainly do something effectively about caps and titan bridging into tidi-systems. And I would bet most of the needed code to do so is already in place. You could have Tidi generate a meter much like you get for the border systems around an incursion...the higher the tidi, the higher the meter, the longer it takes to bridge or jump into the system. Or, if CCP introduces a spool up timer for all titan bridges and jump drives, it could be linked to those instead. This wouldn't stop any ships that were already on stand-by with their bridge or jump engine pre-spooled, but it would certainly significantly slow down the arrival of any reinforcements, allowing a potentially meaningful battle to occurr in the contested system.
Brib Vogt Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 46	Posted - 2014.07.17 14:15:00 - [884] - Quote Just remove ALL notifications. If your POS gets attacked... Look after it! If your SOV gets attacked... LOOK after it! Timer?... Fly to the POS and check it out!
Altirius Saldiaro Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 8	Posted - 2014.07.17 14:19:00 - [885] - Quote Brib Vogt wrote: Just remove ALL notifications. If your POS gets attacked... Look after it! If your SOV gets attacked... LOOK after it! Timer?... Fly to the POS and check it out! Remove the war dec notification. That would be interesting. Players and corps would actually have to check their corp/alliance info to see if any are pending or active.
Speedkermit Damo Demonic Retribution 295	Posted - 2014.07.17 15:11:00 - [886] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: The biggest obstacle to CCP ever getting around to fixing (Sov/Null/Supers/Power Projection) which are all horribly unbalanced, is many veteran players enormous sense of entitlement. I've been reading the FHC thread discussing this. It's depressing. FHC thread? Failheap challenge http://failheap-challenge.com/showthread.php?17149-CCP-Fozzie-and-team-are-discussing-my-favorite-subject-in-a-thread Don't Panic.
Speedkermit Damo Demonic Retribution 295	Posted - 2014.07.17 15:17:00 - [887] - Quote Look at this http://themittani.com/news/amarrmatar-fw-huolas-irregulars Seems like everyone involved is having lots of fun. Why can't sov-warfare be like this? Don't Panic.
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 59	Posted - 2014.07.17 15:52:00 - [888] - Quote Harvey James wrote: they seem too be glorified flags that take a beating .. it shouldn't really be what determines SOV at all ... roman empire didn't dominate the world because they could protect there flags better than anyone else.. Ahh Roman Empire. Romans keeped peace by pax romana (and good politics to the conquered nations). 30 legions deployed among empire provinces. It was good in primes inter pares period. After great conquest era they build great limes along their borders. Without good mobile armies, and reforms they were flooded by roaming "barbarian" nations. If they had cynos...every general wet dream. Firepower and mobility. Maybe copy some of that to EvE. Coalitions as clay legs titans. What if CCP: -remove cynos option for combat ships or restrict to cruisers and lower classes, -capitals can jump only to closest systems with 15 minutes timer to recharge drives, leviatans with huge fire power but slow, -give ability to roams into coalitions sov system (like "barbarian" raids) for planetary resources etc. Some motivation to attack this "land of plenty", swift attacks, to steal or destroy and loot, not necessary to conquer, real conflict driver, far more than ESS. CCP you have huge oportunities, think huge, -Sov structures will have reduced EHP greatly (defends whats yours), -rebalance resources in null, some system with greatly increased ISK oportunities (conflict driver), -pirates trying to recapture systems, attacking players sov and poses, -sov is establised by some kind of loyality to corporation, some kind of pax romana, money, fear etc. players choice, -reduce JF abilities. Conflict driver. Is it better to stay in far systems, good to defend or close to empire borders with good logistics but vulnerable. Any weakness of above points? Anthar Thebess wrote: In theory this was ok. People are from different timezones , have life... This is what coalitions are for, gather people from all timezones. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á
Karash Amerius Sutoka 187	Posted - 2014.07.17 16:12:00 - [889] - Quote In the grand scheme of things, I would not assume that keeping track of capacitor (or shield) levels inside station would be difficult to accomplish. Why do we auto-magically get filled up at station? Might be a small piece to the puzzle to finally fix this. Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka
Harvey James The Sengoku Legacy 844	Posted - 2014.07.17 16:54:00 - [890] - Quote add a science ship designed for cyno's and make them the only ship able too carry one.. remove cynos from everything else then increase spool up time on anything jumping through .. thus giving the opponents a chance too react .. -either kill the science ship - or have time too move off or get reinforcements - or time add deploy a mobile cyno inhibitor which cancels any cyno field up in range of it.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name.. remove drone assist mechanic. Nerf web strength ..... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please.
Mario Putzo Welping and Dunking. 936	Posted - 2014.07.17 17:10:00 - [891] - Quote Harvey James wrote: add a science ship designed for cyno's and make them the only ship able too carry one.. remove cynos from everything else then increase spool up time on anything jumping through .. thus giving the opponents a chance too react .. -either kill the science ship - or have time too move off or get reinforcements - or time add deploy a mobile cyno inhibitor which cancels any cyno field up in range of it.. Right because the timers over ~5 days isn't enough time to react already. The problem isn't with ships getting from point A to point B. The problem is that you have a week to move those ships there, contest a timer, and reset the whole progress. You need to stop trying to remedy a symptom of a problem. The problem is Sov mechanics, fix sov mechanics and the rest will work itself out. The problem is that Sov contestation is not even remotely impacted by actually playing the game, if people actually had to use space in order to claim ownership of it, you wouldn't have 1K man fleets showing up to every fight, because those fleets would have to be at home protecting easily flipped sov. Making sov easier to hold is not the solution. Making it easier to take is. You shouldn't need 1K dudes to take sov, you shouldn't need 1K dudes to defend sov. Fix that and you will fix the "problem" with power projection.
Anthar Thebess 593	Posted - 2014.07.17 17:20:00 - [892] - Quote Speedkermit Damo wrote: Look at this http://themittani.com/news/amarrmatar-fw-huolas-irregulars Seems like everyone involved is having lots of fun. Why can't sov-warfare be like this? Because we have supers, capitals, timers, doomsdays, dictor bubbles , and other fun stuff, that is just not working as CCP intended. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Jeremiah Saken The Fall of Leviathan 59	Posted - 2014.07.17 17:56:00 - [893] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Making sov easier to hold is not the solution. Making it easier to take is. You shouldn't need 1K dudes to take sov, you shouldn't need 1K dudes to defend sov. Fix that and you will fix the "problem" with power projection. Agree. You don't need atomic bomb to kill a fly. It would be good mechanism to thin the "blob". Fleet would have to be spread. Bacon tastes so much better when it's marinated in vegan tears.-á
Mario Putzo Welping and Dunking. 936	Posted - 2014.07.17 18:01:00 - [894] - Quote Jeremiah Saken wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Making sov easier to hold is not the solution. Making it easier to take is. You shouldn't need 1K dudes to take sov, you shouldn't need 1K dudes to defend sov. Fix that and you will fix the "problem" with power projection. Agree. You don't need atomic bomb to kill a fly. It would be good mechanism to thin the "blob". Fleet would have to be spread. Pretty much. CCP needs to give sov a use it or lose it make over. Force people to actually use the space if they want to claim it as their own. Take what they did with FW and apply it to sov control. If you can't actively defend your space by using it...to bad, don't try and hold as much then.
Erutpar Ambient The Flying Tigers Black Core Alliance 181	Posted - 2014.07.17 21:03:00 - [895] - Quote Mario Putzo wrote: Jeremiah Saken wrote: Mario Putzo wrote: Making sov easier to hold is not the solution. Making it easier to take is. You shouldn't need 1K dudes to take sov, you shouldn't need 1K dudes to defend sov. Fix that and you will fix the "problem" with power projection. Agree. You don't need atomic bomb to kill a fly. It would be good mechanism to thin the "blob". Fleet would have to be spread. Pretty much. CCP needs to give sov a use it or lose it make over. Force people to actually use the space if they want to claim it as their own. Take what they did with FW and apply it to sov control. If you can't actively defend your space by using it...to bad, don't try and hold as much then. This is what the effect of removing jump drives would have to a major extent. You won't be able to protect 200+ systems with 1 group of capitals. They're just too slow moving from gate to gate. And if you bubble their path, oh lord, think how long it would take to travel through a bubble to the gate.
Estella Osoka Deep Void Merc Syndicate 414	Posted - 2014.07.17 21:08:00 - [896] - Quote I kinda like the idea of removing cynos, but I also like the idea of cynos only being limited to a certain ship. I say: 1. Allow ships to jump without cynos, but they will be randomly placed in a system. 2. Only allow Battlecruisers and Command Ships the ability to fit cynos. Covert cynos remain the same. This could have the happy side-effect of getting fleet boosters on grid. 3. Jumping to a cyno will land you within a radius of 50km. 4. Add a new cyno skill to reduce that radius, with level 5 allowing the ship to land right on the cyno. You could call it Cyno Pinpointing or something.
Anthar Thebess 593	Posted - 2014.07.17 21:14:00 - [897] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: I kinda like the idea of removing cynos, but I also like the idea of cynos only being limited to a certain ship. I say: 1. Allow ships to jump without cynos, but they will be randomly placed in a system. 2. Only allow Battlecruisers and Command Ships the ability to fit cynos. Covert cynos remain the same. This could have the happy side-effect of getting fleet boosters on grid. 3. Jumping to a cyno will land you within a radius of 50km. 4. Add a new cyno skill to reduce that radius, with level 5 allowing the ship to land right on the cyno. You could call it Cyno Pinpointing or something. 1-2 months to skillup alts, while using some other caracters. The whole jumping direcly to cyno is the issue. Make 1-2 first ships droping to cyno, and rest scattered across the system. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Estella Osoka Deep Void Merc Syndicate 414	Posted - 2014.07.17 22:00:00 - [898] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: I kinda like the idea of removing cynos, but I also like the idea of cynos only being limited to a certain ship. I say: 1. Allow ships to jump without cynos, but they will be randomly placed in a system. 2. Only allow Battlecruisers and Command Ships the ability to fit cynos. Covert cynos remain the same. This could have the happy side-effect of getting fleet boosters on grid. 3. Jumping to a cyno will land you within a radius of 50km. 4. Add a new cyno skill to reduce that radius, with level 5 allowing the ship to land right on the cyno. You could call it Cyno Pinpointing or something. 1-2 months to skillup alts, while using some other caracters. The whole jumping direcly to cyno is the issue. Make 1-2 first ships droping to cyno, and rest scattered across the system. Yeah, but if only BCs and CCs can use them, then you still have to get those ships to the target system.
Anthar Thebess 593	Posted - 2014.07.17 22:25:00 - [899] - Quote Estella Osoka wrote: Anthar Thebess wrote: Estella Osoka wrote: I kinda like the idea of removing cynos, but I also like the idea of cynos only being limited to a certain ship. I say: 1. Allow ships to jump without cynos, but they will be randomly placed in a system. 2. Only allow Battlecruisers and Command Ships the ability to fit cynos. Covert cynos remain the same. This could have the happy side-effect of getting fleet boosters on grid. 3. Jumping to a cyno will land you within a radius of 50km. 4. Add a new cyno skill to reduce that radius, with level 5 allowing the ship to land right on the cyno. You could call it Cyno Pinpointing or something. 1-2 months to skillup alts, while using some other caracters. The whole jumping direcly to cyno is the issue. Make 1-2 first ships droping to cyno, and rest scattered across the system. Yeah, but if only BCs and CCs can use them, then you still have to get those ships to the target system. This is nullsec. You have 1st account : main 2nd : first alt , no more! You need eyes. 3rd account: because 3 capitals is better than one 4,5 for cyno alts. And each account have 3 chars. Plex prices went up so i already reduced my accounts to 4. There will be 3 in next month , and 2 in the future. But i can always reactivate them , and every where i have cyno alts. My point is : - if i have so many accounts ( and i have just few ) there is no issue to move alt to destination system at any ealier time, and simply logout it there. Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption
Speedkermit Damo Demonic Retribution 295	Posted - 2014.07.18 06:39:00 - [900] - Quote Anthar Thebess wrote: Speedkermit Damo wrote: Look at this http://themittani.com/news/amarrmatar-fw-huolas-irregulars Seems like everyone involved is having lots of fun. Why can't sov-warfare be like this? Because we have supers, capitals, timers, doomsdays, dictor bubbles , and other fun stuff, that is just not working as CCP intended. We don't know how lucky we are. Don't Panic.

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