Sure and the economy 100 years ago got on just fine too. Of course, it did not and could not support a standard of living like we see today. There is one very simple rule anyone who takes any economics course should learn. Everything comes with trade offs. Everything. I'm not sure you've fully explored the trad offs inherent in your suggestion here.

For example, various items would become more scarce as there would be increased risk in moving stuff around. From empire to null and vice-versa. At the very least that increased risk will mean sometimes stuff does get blown up. As scarciity increase price will go up. If price did not go up then some people would not undertake the actions necessary to provide those items (risk vs. reward calculations).

And who would be less harmed by an overall increase in the price level...older more established characters....often the very same people in the older, larger and well established current null sec entities.

I get what you want to accomplish here and I even applaud your attempt to take on the issue. But instead of making logisitics in Eve even more like a second or even full time job...might I suggest you find ways to that result in more utilization of space and creating content via positive incentives vs. negative ones?

The environment that cynos built is toxic and needs to go. If logistics being a full time job seems to be the ensuing direction, maybe you should look at your approach from a human resources standpoint. Making it easier on logistics guys is no excuse for the game that has grown around its mechanics.

Making the game tedious and unenjoyable, obviously.

Sure it is. If you make things ****** for them they'll either stop doing logistics, or they'll stop playing EVE altogether. I'm sure that'll be great for the health of the game.

Its funny the economy got along just fine before jumpfreighters.

If you limit power projection people will have to spend time to travel to find content. Time is the commodity because players can't spend there day traveling to find the content. So logical choices will have to be made like " Hey if were blue to everyone within reasonable travel distance then we have nothing to do" " Likewise a group on the otherside of the universe will not travel here reasonably everyday " "Therefore why don't we unblue some of these groups so that our members have the ability to have content without traveling a unreasonable amount of time". You would still see epic battles for pivotal timers ( Home Systems ) when people "phone a friend to come to their aid". I also think this would give rise again to mercenaries ( Nomadic groups that can be contracted to augment stationary groups ).

I'm still not convinced people would give up their blues in favor of content and specifically, I cannot see the CFC doing this. As we've seen over the past years alliances within the CFC have been completely OK with sacrificing content for security and income (evidenced by the stagnation in nullsec we experience today.) Every alliance complains about the lack of content but none want to give up their massive safety net of blues.

Bottom line, I don't see most of the CFC alliances which are quite frankly not capable of standing on their own resetting their blues to get content. If content is what they wanted in the first place they wouldn't have joined the largest blue list the game has ever seen. They'll just live with less ability to deploy as a coalition, or will all live on the fringes of CFC controlled space.

once again: in a manner of speaking yes, but that manner of speaking was that carriers were cheaper, longer range jump freighters (and before that, cargo-expanded dreadnaughts). the jump freighter exists because they had to replace the niche of "thing that jumps lots of cargo to nullsec" when they nerfed the carrier. I do not believe the economy ever got along before the introduction of that niche of ships in any real way because null has never really had the capability to be self-sufficient.

Just curious here...

Since this predates my time in game (which is fairly long now), can any of your rally bitter vets () describe this nerf ot carriers?

The environment that cynos built is, in my opinion, toxic, and needs to go. If logistics being a full time job seems to be the ensuing direction, maybe you should look at your approach from a human resources standpoint. Making it easier on logistics guys is no excuse for the game that has grown around its mechanics.

Just curious here...

Since this predates my time in game (which is fairly long now), can any of your rally bitter vets () describe this nerf ot carriers?

"please tell me you understand that fire is wet"

that's wrong and you have a history of not really grasping the details of why power projection is a problem or how to fix it. of the many, many wrong things with your post the single biggest one is your casual acceptance of one of the biggest problems with "power projection" and sov issues: the defender-takes-all nature of sov fight victories where a single win by the defender resets all progress in the system. if you were to go back to the tug-of-war nature of pos warfare that you CAN show up in time for one fight wouldn't be enough because one fight would not be enough.

your ideas on power projection tend to be really really bad because you are heavily blinkered and generally make that sort of casual assumption that various things are fixed, so you must heavily nerf the things you haven't casually fixed without thinking about it or make other seriously bad changes because they're the only ones you see. if you must continue posting, please stop posting as if you are an authority on the subject and have some idea of what "simple facts" people need to understand. you're generally wrong and you generally don't even put an argument in the post so that I can explain the errors in your thinking and correct them for the benefit of the reader or you

So, run it more like a business so it is less like a business? Is that your suggestion? Sorry, but you'll have to pardon me for finding that kind of rhetoric completely daft.

like i said, income really isn't as important as you think it is and that you think income really matters this much shows you don't get at a basic level how things work. income is great, gives you things to fight over, but at the end of the day survival is what drives the meta of coalitions, not income. income is merely a tool.

gudfites never went out the window because it never actually existed

and there are few people who have as useless knowledge as someone who has been out of the game for years and doesn't really understand what's going on and just keeps saying crazy things about BACK IN MY DAY while everyone just rolls their eyes at the senile grandpa and politely ignores him to avoid causing him embarrassment. however that's really only PL people who are required to do that at this point so you should probably just post there and cease embarrassing yourself by trying to post as one of the big boys when you don't even know who the current ones are.

You've got a massive uphill climb to convince me that your convenience is worth more than the game's overall health. I have long since concluded that making it easy, or even possible to move bulk material from point A to point B in an instant was not a good direction for Eve Online. Its past time it got a second look, and it is, in my opinion, worth throwing away the things you like about the status quo to make Eve a better game.

I'm not exactly jumping for joy over the suggestions here simply because I don't seriously believe PL would just dump the current rental empire model for the sake of the health of Eve.

Where were these radical ideas after the moon goo nerf? Where were these ideas after the Halloween War? I understand you are all so terribly bored you drop Supers on cruisers but honestly? I doubt you could convince people to give up easy income.

Rental income is the easiest thing in existence. Basically CFC/Nc./PL have become landlords nothing more. And due to botlord agreements for both sides to abstain from hurting each others rental space these ideas make even less sense.

Can you seriously convince these people to unclutch their pearls long enough to see there's more to Eve than a blinking walllet? I doubt it.

And what of PL's super cap force? There's just too many unanswered questions and even though the ideas are radical and refreshing, I doubt they will ever come to fruition.

CCP depends upon these once a year proxy wars to advertise 2000 man space battles to draw more people in. What these people don't understand is the 10% tidi, the billions of isk needed to field huge behemoths let alone the years to train such ships too.

So it's a catch 22. You either revert Eve back to an even more niche game and lose half the subscribers or you let the coalitions become so bloated and fat that the line members eventually bleed off and you lose those people anyway.

These are fresh ideas but hardly practical and certainly laughable when leaders of entities like yours scoff at anything that would hurt their easy income.

Reading the first two lines of your post I'm not convinced you read the original message. The whole point of the proposed changes is to make entities like PL and NC. (and the CFC but I'm too sold on them) incapable of defending these vast renter holdings from coordinated attacks.

PL wouldn't have the choice of dumping the rental empire, the idea is it would have to dump the rental empire (or at least give up a large part of it) as soon as it got attacked on multiple fronts.

I'm not exactly jumping for joy over the suggestions here simply because I don't seriously believe PL would just dump the current rental empire model for the sake of the health of Eve.

Where were these radical ideas after the moon goo nerf? Where were these ideas after the Halloween War? I understand you are all so terribly bored you drop Supers on cruisers but honestly? I doubt you could convince people to give up easy income.

Rental income is the easiest thing in existence. Basically CFC/Nc./PL have become landlords nothing more. And due to botlord agreements for both sides to abstain from hurting each others rental space these ideas make even less sense.

Can you seriously convince these people to unclutch their pearls long enough to see there's more to Eve than a blinking walllet? I doubt it.

And what of PL's super cap force? There's just too many unanswered questions and even though the ideas are radical and refreshing, I doubt they will ever come to fruition.

CCP depends upon these once a year proxy wars to advertise 2000 man space battles to draw more people in. What these people don't understand is the 10% tidi, the billions of isk needed to field huge behemoths let alone the years to train such ships too.

So it's a catch 22. You either revert Eve back to an even more niche game and lose half the subscribers or you let the coalitions become so bloated and fat that the line members eventually bleed off and you lose those people anyway.

These are fresh ideas but hardly practical and certainly laughable when leaders of entities like yours scoff at anything that would hurt their easy income.

I understand the rental empire model would be scrapped. My only qualm is how in the hell are you going to convince people who are used to easy isk and pretty much owning vast swathes of sov to give it up?

I'm actually pretty open to anything that breaks up the monotony null sec has mired itself in including Manfreds ideas. I remember the Great War, BoB, conflicts of a regional nature Manfred spoke of.

I even remember the little headlines you'd get as you log in declaring a Titan was destroyed. You know back when Titans were big news.

There's another glaring question as well in regards to force projection. What happens to these dozens of now unusable Supers? Because pretty much a capital becomes a lumbering giant able to use gates but like the battleship fleets of old cumbersome.

Again great brainstorming but in order for these ideas to work they need tweaking and for CCP to get off their asses and realize the very game they created is too small for the current player base and power projection mechanics.

You can achieve much of what you want with some smaller changes:

1. Jump drive cool downs on combat capitals

My convenience (and everyone else's) is essential for the game's health. Making the game inconvenient is not that far from making the game un-fun.

You also appear to be conflating easy and fun. That does not necessarily have to be the case.

FYI: Just to be clear, I don't do logistics for my alliance or corp. So I'm not here complaining about how my own in game activities would suddenly suck alot more with these changes.

PL has been through times where we were scraping along on the bones of our arses. The vast majority of PL pilots are PvPers first and foremost. If it meant we got to go back to our old way of life, living out of NPC stations and taking contracts on people, fighting against 100 man fleets instead of 1000 man fleets, PL would take it.

If, by then, there were good fights to be had, then people would quickly get bored of dropping no risk supers on everything and go back to flying conventional ships and just having fun. A lot of people would take a hit, but I doubt any of them would mind if it meant we got to go back to what we were doing when eve was not about how much you can bring to a fight.

It's probably hard to believe, and you're right, if supers stay as they are now, you will always get bored PL members dropping them on people. That's why they need nerfing.

The environment that cynos built is, in my opinion, toxic, and needs to go. If logistics being a full time job seems to be the ensuing direction, maybe you should look at your approach from a human resources standpoint. Making it easier on logistics guys is no excuse for the game that has grown around its mechanics.

Supers are goddamn boring and if we were to get rid of supers altogether I don't think many tears would be shed tbh. The only reason WE have them is because other people have them and the only reason other people have them is because we have them.

I will repeat it until my fingers are bloodied, useless stumps:

COST DOES NOT ACT AS A LIMITING FACTOR IN EVE: ONLINE, A SPACESHIP GAME.