Do ya have any group actually supporting this change? Because I could see CCP making sweeping changes like that only if everybody currently "important" in null were to stand behind those change and push them as a group effort but the current statu-quo won't be completely changed because :reasons: just because someone else have posted his own personal point of view.

You could have summed this post up by just saying "Hey here's how I want to fix nullsec: Remove jump drives"

Because that's pretty much what you are saying.

Well yeah but removing jumpdrives messes other things up like logistics and supplies in nullsec. So you need changes to compensate for that so you aren't punishing people you are simply creating a new alternative to a old broken system.

Jumprdrives limited jumprange to adjacent system only. (lightyear distance is irrelevant)

I haven't finished analyzing the rest of your ideas, but you do yourself no favors by claiming mineral importation didn't exist before jump freighters. Mineral importation existed - and was even more effective - before jump freighters through carrier jumping of passive targeters in iterons stuffed in a carrier SMA, or oversized guns fitted to destroyers in a carrier SMA. It has never been the case that 0.0 alliances supplied themselves trit locally through mining.

I haven't finished analyzing the rest of your ideas, but you do yourself no favors by claiming mineral importation didn't exist before jump freighters. Mineral importation existed - and was even more effective - before jump freighters through carrier jumping of passive targeters in iterons stuffed in a carrier SMA, or oversized guns fitted to destroyers in a carrier SMA. It has never been the case that 0.0 alliances supplied themselves trit locally through mining.

before jumpdrives and jumpbridges

It almost sounds like you are proud of that. *facepalm*

Not really just stating how it is. I mean I am proud to be part of my alliance I am proud that we are a effective team. In that sense im very proud.

so your entire "golden age of eve" was the eight months between when alliances were introduced (november 2004) and capitals were introduced (july 2005), back when all of the superhighways still existed to Yulai (and you did all this building without even freighters, which didn't exist yet, shuffling trit from the one refinery station per region to one of the two factory stations per region, in an iteron)

that's just wrong, and back then so little existed of the game we know today and people's skills were so low compared to where they are today that it's just not a relevant point to look at. I have a great deal of sympathy for the general idea that 0.0 needs to be made vast again so that anyime you start a minor tiff on the other side of the galaxy we can't barrel in for laughs and vice versa, but pointing to a "golden age" of outpost-free, dictor-free, freighter-free, 0.0 where miners mined without hulks and then lovingly transported their ore to the refinery station, then lovingly transported their trit to the factory station where they built things (instead of just convoying from yulai) either didn't exist, or was only fun because it was still novel

He's talking to me, but what point he thinks he's poorly making is unclear to me.

So here is the problem with Nullsec now and Nullsec is important because the headlines us nullsec'rs make are the headlines that CCP uses for marketing.

I don't know the last time you had to do any alliance logistical work Manny, but as someone in PL who uses their JF more than any other ship in the game I have to 100% disagree with you. If this became a thing, then 0.0 would essentially die. Regardless of any resource localization done in 0.0 from mining, ratting, or plexing, you still have to import a ton of things for basic industry as they are region bound (go look at a T2 reaction flow/build chart) adding in a resource trading NPC would not be that useful either as that would end up price fixing all the materials, then you also run into issues of how you define racial building materials? Do you mean the basic moon goo? Do you mean reacted moon goo? Do you mean advance construction parts? Do you mean exploration research items? Do you mean isotopes?

If this happened then no one in 0.0 would ever use t2 modules nor ships as sourcing them would be near impossible without an extreme amount of work, especially as most of the exploration sites spawn in high-sec and low-sec space.

Price of t2 ships and modules would skyrocket overnight as fueling a pos would be a nightmare and moving moon goo would be suicide. Additionally there are a limited amount of lowsec systems with a high-sec system next door. This would choke-hold the number of moons available in the game for reactions both T2 and T3.

Moons and systems in deep 0.0 would be abandoned as there would be no way to move products out of those systems in any way that was not a complete chore. Other than the bounty isk itself there would be no reason to kill any rats since selling the drops is not worth the time of moving said drops as you could make more isk/hour just killing more rats rather than wasting time trying to move the loot drops. Currently, most of the Zydrine and Nocxium in the game is produced from ores mined in 0.0 and would result in a massive shortage of both, so t1 ship prices would also skyrocket..
Basically the entire 0.0 outside of border regions to empire space would be abandoned and you would see a mass exodus back to high/low sec.

The entire in game economy relies on the Jump Freighter making logistics not more of an absolute pain in the ass than it already is. If my JF was limited to jumping 1 system at a time I would strait up unsub my accounts.

But, those who already do the current system and reap in the benefits of unlimited power projection will never support it.
Why should they?

[...] Because the size of wallets wont matter as much anymore when carriers and dreads cost 200 and 350mil to build respectively[...].

Those numbers seem really low, can you explain how do you get to them? (I assume it's optimizing everything with teams, thukker cap component arrarys etc.)

We got along just fine before jumpfreighters on fueling pos and moving moongoo. But in order to do so your alliance would want to police its space so you could move about. Also we used these things back in the day when we moved haulers and freighters called scouts and intel channels they were so OP.
...
Its funny the economy got along just fine before jumpfreighters.

Amarr outpost in 0.0? Go on testserver and have a look they get a flat 30% req. reduction on everything for capitals that means 30% less minerals to build the capital parts and again 30% less capital components to build the capital itself and if you upgrade the station you can get that bonus up even higher.. It seems CCP is been really quite about it which is wired given that it is on SISI.

someone fatfingered a change on sisi: amarr is supposed to 30% TIME reduction and someone goofed on sisi. the plan is with a mere 12 eggs moved from highsec in a freighter, 12 eggs worth of fillings moved, and about 60b isk you can get an amarr factory to 5% ME off once crius hits

it won't be 30% off

Yeah because the moment they released capitals and supercapitals everyone had them that instant and were using them at such a rate that it had the impact on the game that they do today or even close for that matter :colbert:

It has 30% time as well right now. So not sure on how much of that is fat-fingered. And 5% for 60b would be a really bad deal. I'd call it pointless.

Ok, so here's the problem: your recollections don't really match reality. Back before jump drives, there were no outposts. In 0.0, each region had three stations: two factories, one refinery. If you wanted to build locally, you had to mine minerals, move them to the refinery, refine, then move to the factory.

You had to do this all in an iteron because hulks and freighters did not exist.

Most regions have the refinery nowhere near the factory. Querious didn't. You'd be moving small amounts of minerals tons of jumps. And you're claiming people didn't just mine the ABC (which were hugely valuble), they mined the veld and stuff as well and produced locally. But people who did that were idiots, even back then. ABC was worth far, far more than veld, not least because you could produce infinite trit in empire with NPC seeded shuttles. So if you wanted to build something, you'd mine ABC, bring the minerals to empire in an iteron (billions fits in one iteron), bring those minerals to yulai, and sell them.

Then for a battleship or anything big you'd just fly the stupid thing back. But if you really wanted to build locally, you'd bring in an iteron of passive targeters, built from the infinite shuttle trit, and then refine that for gadzooks of trit in your conquerable refinery. You'd then putter your iteron back and forth 7 jumps to the factory station. Now, given that you're stuck with an iteron, and are moving less than one battleship's worth of minerals at a time, you're far better off just flying prebuilt battleships from Yulai (brought in on the superhighways to your jumpoff point). You're only going to be building cruisers or below with this god-awful backwards setup that was only fun at the time because it was novel - you were exploring a new type of gameplay and it was interesting. Novelty wears off.

I would suggest you actually sit down with a list of what got patched in when and figure out which of your recollections simply couldn't have happened. This pre-jumpdrive golden age of 0.0 simply didn't exist, except the novelty that you remember.

They've said the 30% mineral off is a bug (amarr stations right now have 30% time off and are supposed to retain that bonus in crius). The 5% is direct from the devblog, and it's the highest ME off you can get from 0.0 (each manufacturing slot upgrade becomes a 1% me off upgrade, and an amarr can fit the most at 5).

So you are arguing about semantics now? I mean now that we have all these outpost and all these other industrial ships that can move much higher volumes than a Iteron what's the problem?

Your post begins with your recollection of how great yesteryear was and all of the great things that happened. My point is basically that you remember it completely incorrectly, and that the glories of pre-Cold War EVE are not a thing to use as inspiration.

I've always advocated for greater self-sufficiency for 0.0 and I greatly dislike the bipolar cold war nature of current 0.0, where a conflict anywhere is a conflict with everyone. The former we're actually getting somewhat in this patch and I hope CCP continues iterating on it. The latter is a hard problem that is not advanced by pointing to a glorious past that never happened. If you want to argue we should remove jump drives, then you've got to do it by saying how it will make today better tomorrow, not by saying weren't things great as I recall them when your recollection is faulty.

Ill concede that perhaps my timeline might be blurred together. But ultimately a more inclusive nullsec with more conflict drivers is for the best. Currently both of our alliances are part of the problem. I honestly can't see any changes CCP can make that would shake up nullsec enough. Other than changing jumpdrives jumpbridges to like I suggest other than adding a ton of new space. But im afraid that would only be a temporary stopgap.

Freighters and Jump Freighters were added in the Trinity expansion December 5, 2007. EvE was a major pain in the ass back then. Regardless of how rose tinted your shades. As someone who started in 2009, part of alliances that did not have the isk to afford a JF (especially back when T2 prices were so insanely expensive during the height of OTEC), doing alliance OPs to escort freighters and Orcas through low-sec into null sucks. It is not fun, it is not enjoyable, it is not "cool," it sucks.

That does not lower the barrier to entry into 0.0 either, as you need a massive fleet to protect your freighter/JF with your proposed changes. As soon as you are spotted on the out-gate from high-sec to low sec a fleet will be forming to kill or suicide gank that freighter going gate to gate through lowsec.

This concept of yours may have worked back 250k less subs ago, but EvE hit 500k subs back in 2013. The player base is much larger and more diverse. Besides, some of us have jobs to do IRL.

I can understand where you are coming from on all your points Manny, I guess I just don't think that is fun. It really just sounds like boring work to me. I might agree with things like having constellation wide solv with constellation wide cyno jamers, but essentially making everything prohibitively more expensive or more of a pain to move just sounds like bad game design to me.

BTW when I started in 2009 a T2 ship was an extremely expensive investment that I would have never spent the money on, even if I had the proper skills to fly it. All your proposals are fine in the world view where you can freely replace what ever you want, but for those who do not have mountainous isk reserves, t2 cruisers were as far away a pipe dream as owning a capital. Even at current prices, my Rhea is worth more isk than I went through my first three years in the game combined (2009, 2010 and 2011).

Furthermore, if these kind of changes went into effect, what reason is there to bother living in 0.0 at all other than to have your name on the map? You make more isk in WH, and in terms of ISK per Effort you would be better off in Low Sec or High Sec. Your changes basically just sound like you want all of New Eden to be WH space.

To be honest jump ships always seemed backwards to me: it would make more sense that the giant lumbering siege warships would have to be the ones to slowly waddle towards combat and waddle out while the smaller ships could jump much farther distances much faster. Instead, our giant lumbering siege ships blink into combat and out while our smaller ships have to take the long slow route (or at least did until every fc finally got their own titan alt).

It would be much less problematic for a small border war that doesn't want to escalate into the next galactic war if goonfleet or PL could only cyno in their subcap fleet but not their capital fleet into the battle instead of the other way around.

Ill concede that perhaps my timeline might be blurred together. But ultimately a more inclusive nullsec with more conflict drivers is for the best. Currently both of our alliances are part of the problem. I honestly can't see any changes CCP can make that would shake up nullsec enough. Other than changing jumpdrives jumpbridges to like I suggest other than adding a ton of new space. But im afraid that would only be a temporary stopgap.

CCP could remove sov altogether, or at least from a very significant percentage of null.

Some people like to build castles. Others just want to watch the world burn

Here's a question for you: If everyone who's sick of sov nullsec joined Provi or HERO, would it be enough bodies to threaten CFC or N3/PL? What about if this happened and Provi and HERO joined together?.

For a lot of people I think the problem is having to be part of a mega entity, more so than who those entities are. So everyone joining Provi or HERO would just be more of the same.

There are literally no redeeming qualities to your post whatsoever, everything from "let's remove jump drives but not ACTUALLY remove them" to "let's give people a way to disable hub upgrades for a day at a time within a fifteen minute window, yeah THAT won't get abused in odd timezones at all with no recourse whatsoever" just screams "Let's make the game so awful and unfun that half of nullsec quits."


**** needs changing, I'm happy to admit that, but goddamn am I glad you have no involvement in it.



Least you admit it.

Looking back through this thread, I think you might be happier creating and leading a WH corp Manny. Just food for thought.

also there has never been a time when jump-capable ships did not exist and freighters did. i don't know if people used logistics dreads, but I sure would have.

Looking back through this thread, I think you might be happier creating and leading a WH corp Manny. Just food for thought.

CHANGES

Hey all. We had a good run with our supers but sadly CFC caught up and now fights us on even footing, so I suggest it's time to finally fix those mechanics.

I'm pretty sure you're the only guy in your alliance who thinks that way.

I am quite happy where I am. I like nullsec warfare I like the idea of sovreignty and being able to take it from someone. I like epic battles with supercaps. I don't think anyone in this game has sat tackled and fighting with capitals than me. I love high intensity situations. Only nullsec can deliver that. Well unless you can tell me how to get a supercapital fleet into a wormhole. But in response to your condescending passive aggressive undertone go fetch yourself a book of shut the hell up with you're jumpfreighter ok , thanks great talk.

I see you can throw stones well but in you're superior mind do you actually have any real ideas that bring us to a endstate of revitalizing nullsec and deals with the power projection problem? Or are you just a naysayer with insults?

7 minutes across the universe sure is kind of stupid for a ship like an archon when an interceptor need an hour.

That in itself would do a lot to limit power projection since only smaller sized ship raiding forces would have the ability to get places quick.

How's that? You'd just bridge or jump Alpha Maels 100 km away from a bubbled fleet and kill them. For instance.

7. Make holding sov more absorbing.
- you have to fight incursions, if you will not , you will loose SOV in those systems after 2 days, and in order to get it back you have to achieve some few day objective
- local rats assaulting player operations , why not let them shoot poses , do mini incursions to take back their systems
( please don't tell me that SOV should be only about PVP - check in game map "rats killed 24h", most of the nullsec players are farmers. And this 5-10% population mostly focused on pvp will have much more targets this way , as players will have to defend their poses, fight those incursions , or uprising)

8. Make sov status depended on your activity.
The more rats you kill , the higher sec status (-1.0 -> 0.0 ) , so less spawns, and worst type.
If system is idle it have its status lowering slowly ( 0.0 -> -1.0 ) and at -0.9 you get a local npc pirate uprising , if you will not fight it within 3 days after sov drops to -1.0 , they are victorious and all sov infrastructure is going off-line ( rats will hit those structures , so eventually they will kill TCU and ihub.

Jumprdrives limited jumprange to adjacent system only. (lightyear distance is irrelevant)

We may simply have to wait for the rich coalitions to get bored enough to stop playing to the point where their sov lapses and hope beyond hope there is a possibility of reviving the game's numbers later on.

Yes, and that is a problem. Whilst one can argue (and I have) that this is a natural progression and that if you want to play in the big leagues you have to either grow into it or join one of the teams already in it, I can agree that it would be better if there was room for the smaller players.

So, there are a number of potential avenues to consider, some of which are:

1) Expand Sov Space - This is my favorite. If there was new space with significantly larger distances between stars that spread out from the outer boundaries of current Sov space it might alleviate the issue. The closer you are to Empire the easier it is to travel. The further out you go the less impact your jump drive has. Then shift nearly all the good moons further out making that the desirable space. It would massively increase the time for a fleet to get from one side of the map to the other. It would also mean that a lot of the space closer to Empire would be freed up as the current 2 massive coalitions took the more profitable space further out meaning that there would (hopefully) be space for smaller entities to take due to the distance issues making the big coalitions let go of the less profitable space. It would also mean that the better space you have the more pain in the backside it is to get to highsec and back. This is all off the top of my head so there are probably holes in it.

2) Reduce current sov holding through mechanics changes - This is rather intrusive and would likely garner complaint from the two main power blocs. Lots of potentials for this have been suggested on this forum and most have been soundly shot down.

3) Remove or massively reduce jump capability to enlarge the EVE galaxy by increasing travel times by a large factor - I'm pretty sure this isn't going to happen as it has WAY to many people against it, understandably.

It sure is a thorny subject though.

Hey mate look at this see what you think. This will not only solve the sov problem but also eventually disolve mega alliances or coalitions


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356422&find=unread

1. Add new pockets of npc space having stations / create new gate connections that each SOV region have connection to NPC space

Hey mate look at this see what you think. This will not only solve the sov problem but also eventually disolve mega alliances or coalitions


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=356422&find=unread

Maybe we could take a look at how WH corp lives and the mechanics in which they live in? I'm not saying turn all space to WH mechanics, but maybe we can learn something about it, there is no "supreme overlord" of WH space, everything happens on a much smaller scale. These corp do not have access to a JF and yet, they still manage to exist, don't they?

The "little guy" that everyone keeps referring to has access to NPC nullsec. The problem is that there's not a lot of npc null, not enough anyway and what there is has become quite crowded. Which is why I advocate expanding NPC nullsec space at the expense of sov-nullsec.

If CCP wants more players in nullsec, then we need more NPC nullsec space.

To credit, though, it's spawned some decent discussion.

e: My reaction to Manny's set of suggestions the other day was about as vitriolically over the top as I feel his power projection changes are. The real problem I've got with it isn't so much what I feel are the bad ideas (NPC trader, hubs hackable in the way he describes, over the top projection nerf) nor the good ones (I like the notion of tying the other indices into sov more though not quite so much in the way he's describing) but in what it fails to really address or even apparently think about. Some of it got touched on above - ****ing over people living in deep null with no alternatives, no thought to upsides of living there. Some just aren't touched on at all - what's the carrying capacity of a system for player income, how does that as well as value of alliance income sources drive the meta (hint: extensively, at least in my opinion), is production based entirely on locally sourced materials really that feasible (up for debate), etc. So I guess you could summarize that all as "some good, some bad, but mostly just feels half assed."

To credit, though, it's spawned some decent discussion.

But no one from CCP responded.

A bunch of condescending bull****

Yeah so that's the last time I come anywhere near apologizing to you or people like you.

There are literally no redeeming qualities to your post whatsoever


**** needs changing, I'm happy to admit that, but goddamn am I glad you have no involvement in it.

I really don't think putting rules on the size of alliances/corp will solve anything, these entities exist outside the game, the only thing this will create is a multiplication of assets holding "alt" alliances controlled by the same people.

So again do you have a better idea Mynna

Yeah you can't put arbitrary limits on social paradigms and not expect players to game it.

words

7 minutes across the universe sure is kind of stupid for a ship like an archon when an interceptor need an hour.

Yeah, pretty much this. New Eden is far too small with the current mechanics.

More broadly, I WANT to want to go to null. But the current options of join the blob, bow the knee or rent have zero appeal for me. And no, I don't know how to fix it :)

More broadly, I WANT to want to go to null. But the current options of join the blob, bow the knee or rent have zero appeal for me. And no, I don't know how to fix it :)

you don't want to go to sov null, then. what's to fix?

What's to fix is the current system where there is no point going to null without joining one of the existing coalitions.

Yeah so that's the last time I come anywhere near apologizing to you or people like you.

Call me when you've gotten over the idea that because some things were better (or "better") in 2006, they all were.

mynnna we don't like tyrants... you are the problem and we are trying to solve you the problem. Just do us all a favor you and your whole bunch just quit eve....

mynnna we don't like tyrants... you are the problem and we are trying to solve you the problem. Just do us all a favor you and your whole bunch just quit eve....

mynnna we don't like tyrants... you are the problem and we are trying to solve you the problem. Just do us all a favor you and your whole bunch just quit eve....

What's to fix is the current system where there is no point going to null without joining one of the existing coalitions. People want to be able to try to carve out their own chunk of space but it is currently in a choke hold of the existing groups so there is no point. It's fair enough that the greatest power can exert the greatest control but when this impacts the game by putting people off even bothering with null (about 80% of the players I think?) then it is an issue. CCP want more people in null so there needs to be incentives to do so.

removing the OP mechanic that jumpbridges/jumpdrives are would mostly fix power projection and would immediately create far more gameplay in general .. the things people actually want .. pretty simple solution CCP just be brave enough too do it

removing the OP mechanic that jumpbridges/jumpdrives are would mostly fix power projection and would immediately create far more gameplay in general .. the things people actually want .. pretty simple solution CCP just be brave enough too do it

There are literally no redeeming qualities to your post whatsoever, everything from "let's remove jump drives but not ACTUALLY remove them" to "let's give people a way to disable hub upgrades for a day at a time within a fifteen minute window, yeah THAT won't get abused in odd timezones at all with no recourse whatsoever" just screams "Let's make the game so awful and unfun that half of nullsec quits."


*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
*Snip* Removed reply to a deleted post. ISD Ezwal.

Words.

Good Idea's!


Srry for the broken englisch, drunk grammar noob in progress...

but i dont think ccp will do it. because they are using EVE as a real life simulator for real world statistics somehow

Since this thread has turned into a general discussion about ideas to fix sov, I'll throw in a few ideas I'd like to see.

Small gangs should matter.
Sov structures shouldn't need supercapitals to deal with. Supercaps can be used to deal with other supercaps.

I'm thinking of making attacking a constellation more like a bank heist. There's a big central structure, plus a number of smaller structures that have to be dealt with around the constellation. Nodes, if you will. Have the central constellation structure armed to the teeth, with possibly upgrades such as a strategic weapon, long range scanners, or supercapital construction bay. The smaller nodes can be destroyed or hacked (the faster but non-permanent option) by players using the hacking minigame. SInce the hacker will be exposed during this time, it'd be good to have escorts. Small, fast moving hacking gangs could hit these nodes while the main fleet moves towards the primary target.

Destroying the nodes does not help weaken the sov structure. Only successful hacking will do this. So, a big fleet of capitals could attack it as they do now (losing dreads to its powerful weapons), or a smaller fleet can be clever and disable its defenses before hitting it.

Nodes could have number of different purposes when hacked.
* Disable local for a time.
* Lower shield strength on the main structure to greatly reduce its resistance.
* Disable placeable sentry guns throughout the system.
* Disable sensors place around the constellation which provide information on hostile fleet movements.

Etcetera

Oh, and this plan would work better if jump drives weren't a thing. Having to move a big fleet around is a disincentive to bring one. Small, fast fleets would have an advantage.

Something that has been brought up a few times, but has not been talked about here yet is the idea of better terrain on the Eve map. Most of the North and the South of the map are flat plains with a bunch of forest for people to hind in(NPC nullsec/lowsec). This make them both very easy to invade. It is just down right impossible for someone to not have a foothold some where if they actually invade.

Any place there is actually some type of gap on the map becomes very powerful to those that own it. I can explain, the dronelands is basically a valley surround by a huge mountain range. There are a few paths you can invade with subcaps, but if you want capitals in there, you have only two ways to get in. There are a few more gaps in the map, like the divide between catch and delve, but not a whole lot more.

Adding in more gaps or some sort of blocks for jump drive. Forcing people to have to use certain gates/systems to go into certain regions, this would go along way to helping out in an overall SOV change. Maybe even moving the NPC nullsec pockets so people cant only just base out of them to defend/attack entire regions. Although let me be clear, if that was the only thing done it would be terrible.

CHANGES

Jumprdrives limited jumprange to adjacent system only. (lightyear distance is irrelevant)
All capitals can use stargates.
One Jumpbridge per system can only connect to adjacent system (lightyear distance is irrelevant)

+1 (except the NPC trader thingy... find a better way to fix that).

To everyone saying that implementing those idea would make logistics impossible to keep things running on the current scale, that's the whole point of the changes proposed.

We're not looking for a solution that would do nothing, they HAVE TO make sustaining such incredibly large empire ~impossible or very tedious. The current status quo is the worst thing to happen in EVE in a long time. 2 coalitions with infinite income, agreeing to not attack each other, 2 smaller coaliton who are permitted to exist to generate "gud fights" for the line members. It's artificial, I love good fights like anybody else, but if it's ONLY fighting for the sake of fighting all the time, we're losing the sense of purpose here.

Maybe we could take a look at how WH corp lives and the mechanics in which they live in? I'm not saying turn all space to WH mechanics, but maybe we can learn something about it, there is no "supreme overlord" of WH space, everything happens on a much smaller scale. These corp do not have access to a JF and yet, they still manage to exist, don't they?

You could argue with me that they have much less jumps to do to reach empire space and resupply compared to the furthest 0.0 regions and that's true, maybe player buildable (and destructable) stargate would be the answer? Imagine, you live in Period Basis with your own little alliance who control the region and then you build a smuggler like stargate that links to querious and another one from there to Khanid. So in a very respectable number of jumps, you could be in low-sec empire space and then make your way to a trade hub.

You would need to patrol the supply pipe(s) and escort transport ship (Deep space transport with more cargo than they currently have could be nice here, mini-freighter designed for... deep space, you know?).
Moving large fleets could still be possible throught this new player made network of long range gate, but would be much more localized, static, predictable and counterable.

The "little guy" that everyone keeps referring to has access to NPC nullsec. The problem is that there's not a lot of npc null, not enough anyway and what there is has become quite crowded. Which is why I advocate expanding NPC nullsec space at the expense of sov-nullsec.

If CCP wants more players in nullsec, then we need more NPC nullsec space.

The little guy will just get camped into those NPC stations by mega coalitions when the little guy pisses off the mega coalition.

If we nerf moving ships, by making bridging or jumping harder, then large alliances will preposition ships about their territory. This will require more ships, which means the average ship size will take a down tick. Many may think this is a move in the right direction; having supercarriers instead of Titans, carriers in place of supers, etc. But when null was battlecruiser blobs, people still said it was a problem that people blobbed.

.

I wrote quite an essay on this subject but sadly through the wonders of forum web apps it was all piped to /dev/null

TLDR version:

1. People are used to status quo, it's normal to hear them whineif you take away the simply toys they are used to. Look at the outcry from industrialists that they can't just predict their profits by plugging in numbers into EveIPH every day and mass running jobs!

2. To experience some of the magic of EVE Sov, some of the mechanics like Sov levels from the old days , or things which take it out of the control of a small number of supermassive supercapital fleets are welcome.

3. Thank you to the OP for bringing up (again) this important topic.

4. Your ideas could work , but simply removing jump drives all together (without replacing it with something else that is fun) is probably just going to make the (sov) players angry.

5. I choose to live in NPC partly because I see no future in the game in sov.

6. Perhaps this new Rubicon of unexplored space will be the Sov 2.0 , the sov "done right". Let's hope so.

--
Fang

I hope they allow for no sov whatsoever so the only way you can control the space is with actual pilot and force presence.

I also hope that the new space is so unstable it doesn't allow for anything bigger than a BC or BS without tearing it apart due to space environment problems, gravitational flux, giant monsters with a taste for cap ships, whatevers...

I guess we shall see.

Csn you provide me a reason to join sov null? This is an important first question.

Big blocs should become content for small entites not the way around becouse there is noting that can change red vs blue in null becouse all decisions in Eve are dictated by isk

I
Basically the entire 0.0 outside of border regions to empire space would be abandoned and you would see a mass exodus back to high/low sec.
.

Hm, you know, with the new Region and/or Regions opening up in hopefully near future expansions, we might actually start to see some answers to a lot of these concerns. Its possible CCP might even give us the cake and let us eat it too. Current regions/sov mechanics may be left as-is, and who knows what possibilities will be open with the new region.

Perhaps they will be set up in a way that doesn't support projection, or allows for independant self-contained sustenance. We shall see. Hopefully sooner rather than later.

I would caution smugglers gates and streamlining gate travel as it could only strengthen power projection. People who live in the outlying areas of space should do so because its more remote and space further from empire should be richer. Again the idea with a power projection nerf would be to create new mechanics that allow nullsec groups to get rid of the tether to empire.

Unfortunately nullsec is much too flat right now and the regions that supposedly should be richer to make this work, aren't.

The other thing with the point you're making about gates is that it's true if they're player built and then put up everywhere. If they were for whatever reason NPC gates, carefully placed and limited to facilitate an option for travel into deep nullsec, that'd be another matter. Yes you could cut twenty, thirty jumps off your freighter convoy, but man isn't that an obvious route to take with no way around once you're on it, it'd be a shame if someone were waiting for you.

I like the idea of making null more spread out, reducing cap ships' ability to get very far very quickly.

Most of the fun of freighter ops back in the day was the content it created. More content drivers!

You mean the nowadays 100% assured drop on your freighter protection fleet, which instablaps the freighter and smokes the rest of the fleet? ^^

That's not really content... that's shallow entertainment because the opposing party is incapable of creating meaningful content on their own. Instead, the dire need for easy targets to fix killboards or have something green show up killboards at all prohibits such activities in most cases these days.

e: In some ways this touches on one of the merits of jump freighters, really - they enable the boring tedium that is "moving crap around", especially for those out in null, to be done by one dude or a small team, who are often handsomely compensated for their labor. When it comes to "doing tedious crap", one player or a small group of players having good tools to do it isn't actually a bad thing, after all.

Limiting how far a capital ship can jump just doe snto work because makes impossble to traverse high sec using the low sec pockets as is done now.

Eh, yes you can say that i'm worried about eve.
This is nice game , but it is falling apart, because instead of growing ... devs are cutting roots just to make it more colourful and shiny , like this is the reason why most of the players play in this game.

Sorry , but no.
The whole point of people suggestions is to change this, and there is no difference if this is lowsec or a nullsec.
What eve needs is to be big again, where moving from one edge of universe to another in a capital or super will not take <1h.

You suggest timer between jumps, it will not change nothing.
Ops will just start a bit ealier , and this will make capital, and especially supercapital usage more safer.

I think , whole point of changes made by CCP should focus on making sov holding alliances much more tied up to space they own.

There will be always place for deployment in other side of eve , as eve is a game of alts.

I'm not saying that this will be easy job , but it is something that ccp have to do.

Just look at this webpage , and "all times" graph.
Players Online

Current numbers put active player base number around 2011 , and it is still dropping.

You can say that every thing CCP gained since Incarna it is now gone or even more from what i see Quantum Rise was also expansion that put the active player base above this number , and this is 2008.

People where not waiting for Industry re haul , yes it is nice , players online will jump a bit for 2-3 months and then again they will start dropping.

People where asking CCP for certain changes , and where again ignored.
How long people are asking for pos system rehaul? or for a sov mechanic changes? or for different cyno / jump mechanics? supercapital changes?

Something that relay matters , and what we will get?
More expensive ships, more expensive logistics , so less people willing to burn their isk in ships.
Nice industry interface , that will benefit a very small group of players , as one skilled character have 50? or more production lines , but when on grid , he can fly only one ship.

Eh, yes you can say that i'm worried about eve.
This is nice game , but it is falling apart, because instead of growing ... devs are cutting roots just to make it more colourful and shiny , like this is the reason why most of the players play in this game.

In my opinion one of the big problems that causes powerprojection are the timers...
People can set the timers to their likings, so they have WAY to much time to get their defending numbers in.
Timers should be MUCH shorter, so the defenders have to be CLOSE to their defending system to be able to always defend it.
If an Alliance wants to take SOV they can prepare for it and Blitz it.
The Defending Alliance should be either there to defend it, or loose it.
timers should not be ANY longer then 24 hours. (or maybe even 3 stages of 8 hours each)

Well, if we wanna go the route of limiting power projection, how about starting with something smaller and more incremental? How about we just remove Titan bridging? I mean it wouldn't solve the whole problem but it would be a start.

I've always felt uneasy about the idea that 99% of Titans' role in Eve is just to sit in a POS and bridge.

Spool timers are bad, as it will just lead to more capitals.
You need to use capitals 5 times a day? Buy 10 carriers , you will have plenty of reserve.
Fast relocation ?
Un - rigged carriers here we come.
Repackage on each station, bit annoying , but it can be done.

Tie the timer to the pilot.. easy.

A bit harder to overcome, i have 4 capital pilots.
Damn need more.

Well i don't say no.
Something is better than nothing.
But you need to include the same thing for titan bridges.
What about jump freighters.

For some regions you just made a very long trip for a JF.

Well, if we wanna go the route of limiting power projection, how about starting with something smaller and more incremental? How about we just remove Titan bridging? I mean it wouldn't solve the whole problem but it would be a start.

I've always felt uneasy about the idea that 99% of Titans' role in Eve is just to sit in a POS and bridge.

Easy to overcome, but can be part of solution.
Why?
Because the more things to manage , the bigger possibility for something go wrong.

I think instead of influence , increasing sov bill for the distance from capitol , will be enough.

No one will want to pay 7bill to keep sov in a system on the 3 regions away.
This will force also changes to the JB network.

This is a bad idea because you're still just trying to tweak a bad system that has incredible difficulty getting around being gamed by alt alliances. The correct solution is to go back to something like pos fuel: the farther-stretched your empire is, the more your logistics are overtaxed and something will go wrong.

This is a bad idea because you're still just trying to tweak a bad system that has incredible difficulty getting around being gamed by alt alliances. The correct solution is to go back to something like pos fuel: the farther-stretched your empire is, the more your logistics are overtaxed and something will go wrong.

The fact remains that nullsec as it stands is broken and has been for some time. I really think it would be cool to see a more diverse nullsec. I mean N3/PL control over 1500 systems and 500 stations and CFC controls a similar amount as well. Thats just dumb but we all are just playing with the tools and rules we are given. Everyone likes winning so in the end will exploit any advantage to improve chances of victory or victorious endstate. Real change needs to happen.

Making Sov cost more might do something to break up huge swathes of space owned by a single entity, but if the space is unused in a 40k man coalition, why is going to be more desirable to a much, much smaller group? Bad space is bad.


There was a lot more to this, but the forum ate it (twice); this is the draft, and I can't be ****** to re-write it all again. TL;DR Tinkering with Sov, sure; ******* with jump drives, meh.

Yeah, pretty much this. New Eden is far too small with the current mechanics.

More broadly, I WANT to want to go to null. But the current options of join the blob, bow the knee or rent have zero appeal for me. And no, I don't know how to fix it :)

Wrong..
There are some types of players that would settle it, with all these difficulties.. It would not become abandoned.
After all, wh space is being settled too.
Sure, it would not be the current type of players that currently enjoy their null sect riches without much risks... Those would leave null sec

I am watching this thread with great interest and am very happy to see the discussion it's spawning.

It's very interesting to compare the ideas being discussed here with concepts we're discussing internally.