Can I get some sort of reply to this? Is is possible? Being considered? You don't care, something...

I think you'll have more luck getting an official response on a weekday...

GAH! Thank you for the lack of troll response even when I was so very dumb. I do college from home and I have to do it almost every day. I forgot it was a weekend LOL. :)

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

There were people who didn't lock their windows when pinned? O_O

There were people who didn't lock their windows when pinned? O_O

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

There were people who didn't lock their windows when pinned? O_O

There were people who didn't lock their windows when pinned? O_O

[...] and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence [...]

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

[17:51:55] S**** *****r > I need me windows locked

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

Today on test I noticed the option to lock windows in place when pinned has been removed.

It used to exist under the ESC | General Settings | Windows section

Can this feature be put back in?

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

What we need is two options (in the window itself):

PIN - make it transparent (the little circle w/ dot)
LOCK - make it locked in position relative to the nearest 2 screen edges (a lock icon)

So there would be 4 little buttons in the upper right corner of any UI window (lock, pin, minimize, close).

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

Err, wat. Maybe I was just always with the in-crowd, but at least to me it seemed like most people knew and used it. I don't mean any disrespect, but in a game where the mouse is king and you click on things very fast, being unable to lock windows down is a recipe for disaster x.X

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

For the love of god please put this back in. Nothing pisses me off more than a the target selection window or a chat box or something getting moved around in the middle of a PvP fight because eve decided to interpret me pressing my mic button (thumb button on my Logitech G5) as a click-and-drag on a window. I've only discovered it recently and it made Eve's UI about 90% more bearable.

...and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence...

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

we decided to remove it.

to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This is a really bad joke. EVE's interface is UNBEARABLE without window locking. Are you trying to turn "best upcoming patch" into "worst" or what?

I'd love to hear the "Technical Reasons" behind this change. 100 bucks says it's "because we kept breaking it when screwing with window code, so we decided to take the easy way out"

It makes sense to remove the option because windows should ALWAYS be locked and transparent when pinned.

Why would we pin them unless we wanted them to stay there?

It's kinda important for pvp.

It makes sense to remove the option because windows should ALWAYS be locked and transparent when pinned.

Why would we pin them unless we wanted them to stay there?

It's kinda important for pvp.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

Another +1 to the "pin should, you know pin" sentiment. I've never understood why there was even a choice to have pinning not lock the window in place. It's way too easy, especially in a hot fight, to accidentally move a window or worse, dock it to another, thereby totally hosing your UI at a critical moment.

Please put this back in!

CCP, you better rename it "Make transparent" then as that is the only thing it will do.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence

the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

Removing this is madness.

In my recent trips to the test server I thought this was a bug. And had been reported as such by more than a few people.

Where do you possibly get the "no one uses this"


Fix it completely or DO NOT remove it. You guys are already doing the same thing to the Pan to Target feature. Why not leave this stuff in the way it is till you can fix it. The way they are currently working is in use by more people then you think!!!

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

Three women were in a bar talking about their husbands and how they made love.

The first woman said, "My husband is a marriage counselor, and before we make love, he brings me flowers and candy. I like that."

The second woman proclaimed, "My husband is a mechanic, he makes love a little rough, I like that."

The third woman replied, "Well my husband works for CCP and all he doe's is sit on the edge of the bed and tell me how good it's going to be when I get it."

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

Any time frame on this, will this just be the fabled 18 months and then forgetting everything about it still like the AF revamp?

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Obviously, we jumped the gun on this one, we're sorry and we'll fix it. I would although like to point out that we don't remove features like this just because we're evil but rather in an attempt to simplify code and user experience. If we manage to identify and remove a feature that nobody uses, that means simpler code, simpler user experience, fewer bugs and more time to implement new and cool stuff. In this case, we obviously misdiagnosed. Also, we are actually quite evil coming to think of it.

It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?). Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move, so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated. Sadly, we can't improve things without changing them and people (including me) hate it when the UI they've grown used to changes, but given that the changes are actually good, the hatred quickly wears off. The more vocal you are, the less likely we are to screw up like this again!

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?).

Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows).

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature?

- I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

My #1 windowing UI complaint is that you guys don't make the enter key always map to OK in dialogs. This is especially visible in the industry UI, where after picking a manufacturing location, enter will re-pick the location, rather than hit the OK button. You appear to have enter activating the focused control, not the default button for a dialog, and it is annoying.

If we were to go down the LUA path, that would mean re-writing the entire UI, which would take multiple man-years. In the meantime we would of course not be able to do anything else which would ... kind of suck wouldn't it?

The thing about making everything customizable is that it makes the code, windows and system menu more complex to work with, for users and developers alike. This is of course an eternal tug of war between simplicity and customizability. If everything is customizable, programmers and designers will have to account for all combinations of options whenever they change anything, so the complexity obviously grows exponentially, the end result being that more time is spent on maintenance, and less time on improvement. Of course I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to modify anything, but we do need to make a solid case before adding more stuff to the system menu.

My view is that you ought to stick to standards more. I suspect that 90% of the folks that lock windows do so because for some reason, you allow people to move windows by dragging their backgrounds. This is not "normal" behavior, and is annoying.

The only time I use the tab key to collapse all windows is when the overview is bugged and I want a quick way to refresh it. This has been mostly fixed recently.

My #1 windowing UI complaint is that you guys don't make the enter key always map to OK in dialogs. This is especially visible in the industry UI, where after picking a manufacturing location, enter will re-pick the location, rather than hit the OK button. You appear to have enter activating the focused control, not the default button for a dialog, and it is annoying.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?). Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move, so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

If we were to go down the LUA path, that would mean re-writing the entire UI, which would take multiple man-years. In the meantime we would of course not be able to do anything else which would ... kind of suck wouldn't it?

The thing about making everything customizable is that it makes the code, windows and system menu more complex to work with, for users and developers alike. This is of course an eternal tug of war between simplicity and customizability. If everything is customizable, programmers and designers will have to account for all combinations of options whenever they change anything, so the complexity obviously grows exponentially, the end result being that more time is spent on maintenance, and less time on improvement. Of course I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to modify anything, but we do need to make a solid case before adding more stuff to the system menu.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking? I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

We strive to have ENTER work as confirm for all dialogs. If some of them fail to follow that pattern, I would call that a defect.

Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking? I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking? I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

We strive to have ENTER work as confirm for all dialogs. If some of them fail to follow that pattern, I would call that a defect.

Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking?

Speaking of Interface... Doesn't CARBONUI allow you to do pretty much whatever you want with the controls?

This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking? I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

Obviously, we jumped the gun on this one, we're sorry and we'll fix it. I would although like to point out that we don't remove features like this just because we're evil but rather in an attempt to simplify code and user experience. If we manage to identify and remove a feature that nobody uses, that means simpler code, simpler user experience, fewer bugs and more time to implement new and cool stuff. In this case, we obviously misdiagnosed. Also, we are actually quite evil coming to think of it.

It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?). Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move, so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated. Sadly, we can't improve things without changing them and people (including me) hate it when the UI they've grown used to changes, but given that the changes are actually good, the hatred quickly wears off. The more vocal you are, the less likely we are to screw up like this again!

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking?

I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

Obviously, we jumped the gun on this one, we're sorry and we'll fix it. I would although like to point out that we don't remove features like this just because we're evil but rather in an attempt to simplify code and user experience.

If we manage to identify and remove a feature that nobody uses, that means simpler code, simpler user experience, fewer bugs and more time to implement new and cool stuff. In this case, we obviously misdiagnosed. Also, we are actually quite evil coming to think of it.

It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems

but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?).

Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move

so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great.

Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated. Sadly, we can't improve things without changing them and people (including me) hate it when the UI they've grown used to changes, but given that the changes are actually good, the hatred quickly wears off. The more vocal you are, the less likely we are to screw up like this again!

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

My view is that you ought to stick to standards more. I suspect that 90% of the folks that lock windows do so because for some reason, you allow people to move windows by dragging their backgrounds. This is not "normal" behavior, and is annoying.

Why isn't locked-when-pinned the default behavior? If you think it's a confusing option, just make it default to behave like everyone expects it to behave.

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window.

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking?

Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?).

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows).

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature?

By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?).

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking? I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

We strive to have ENTER work as confirm for all dialogs. If some of them fail to follow that pattern, I would call that a defect.

This is a great point. Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking? I assume the same would be done for collapsing as it doesn't make a great deal of sense that double clicking the window directly collapses it and probably causes a lot of accidents.

We strive to have ENTER work as confirm for all dialogs. If some of them fail to follow that pattern, I would call that a defect.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

...

But if you like to reduce amount of windows as much as possible what about Selected Item window? Now when we have keyboard shortcuts for quick actions and context and circle menus for less-often used actions is there much need for this window?

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?). Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move, so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

The OpenGL look on windows is so old and dosen't fit what the rest of EVE looks like today.

regrettably it's too late in the day to safely put it back before release day, but the option to lock window position will be reintroduced asap in a point release.

As far as I'm concerned if you pin a window and it don't lock then the PIN FEATURE is BROKEN and you are releasing yet again another buggy and broken expansion.

Obviously, we jumped the gun on this one, we're sorry and we'll fix it. I would although like to point out that we don't remove features like this just because we're evil but rather in an attempt to simplify code and user experience. If we manage to identify and remove a feature that nobody uses, that means simpler code, simpler user experience, fewer bugs and more time to implement new and cool stuff. In this case, we obviously misdiagnosed. Also, we are actually quite evil coming to think of it.

It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?). Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move, so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated. Sadly, we can't improve things without changing them and people (including me) hate it when the UI they've grown used to changes, but given that the changes are actually good, the hatred quickly wears off. The more vocal you are, the less likely we are to screw up like this again!

My take on window management in eve:

The number one reason for the hostility towards removing pinning is the absolute blood-boiling frustration with the multitude of window docking/snapping/mis-clicking issues and bugs, some of which have probably been fixed/smoothed in the past. I can't count how many times I've nearly punched the screen when either the client lags and mis-interprets a click, or the (still unresolved afaik) bug happens where a mouse click decides to grab a random window, sometime causing a cascade of windows moving themselves around that somehow believe they should be pinned to each other's location.

My dream implementation would include removing all logic for windows to stick together and try and move as a group. This seems to be the root of almost all my frustration with the eve UI. I don't think it would be very well missed, as at least in my case the amount of extra work from moving commonly linked windows (like the overview and selected items) would be greatly overshadowed by the reduction in window moves I have to make to correct something the client does automatically via windows trying to stick each other.

With the amount of bug fixes listed for that feature, and the amount of patches that have introduced goofy issues with it, I would guess there's a TON of code involved with it, which IMO could be scrapped.

If the 'window sticking' feature was removed, it seems like it would be extremely easy to make the 'pin' option simply disable that window's ability to move, possibly even moving transparency to another feature all together (I'm not sure I'm totally on board with dynamic transparency, but I would be willing to see it in action first).

There were people who didn't lock their windows when pinned? O_O

WOW. I thought everyone locked them. I know I sure did......................

We strive to have ENTER work as confirm for all dialogs. If some of them fail to follow that pattern, I would call that a defect.

This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.

O
It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

wow, 6 pages of "this is a huge deal"...

Honestly, I don't pin windows because they make things transparent. Also because stacking mucks everything up.

But it's a nice feature to have. I don't know how you wrote it but why don't you just make windowID's remember relative locations to the origin? Or explain how it can be so difficult to maintain since I seem to be missing something.

please do NOT make pinning and locking only usable together. i want to lock windows, but NOT make them transparent the same time. if i have to choose, i would rather not pin windows right now, as transparency is far worse than being able to move a window.