We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.

CCP Fozzie.

Keep strong Don't let the tears remove you from the path of light.

Excellent changes so far.

You need to invert the figures which now is - the smaller the mass of the ship so he went on to appear on WH
Example
Frigate / destroyer - 25-30 km
T3 / cruiser size - 15-20km
Battleship - 7.8 km
orc 6-7km
Capital - 2.4 km

This will give more pvp - any ship cruiser size have always sink to the hole
Will be of interest to fight for holes in the high sec, etc.
it will give any fight is tied to the hole dynamics. Now it looks - all pressed to the hole and stand in each other's shooting

The basic format - in WH - T3 armor
Now it will be possible to conceive of a more rapid and agile formats

what do you suggest now - it's stupid
You do not play this game and do not even know what is in pvp in WH

what you want to do will only affect classes 5-6. If you think that this will give you more pvp depths mistaken. F**** carrybears just will not close the hole bu orca and capital - will use only battleship. For people who throw capital for PVP - no matter where is the capital - 15 km or 0 - it will still fall into siege / triage.
Now you just want to devour the lives of those who engage in PVP holes c5-c6.

I advise you to get an idea of GÇïGÇïwhat you are destroying the fragile peace established players - fly a real pvp fleets of all primetime. And not to ruin perfectly working system with his stupid ideas

And most importantly - return the Statistics API!

I was starting to like your posts here, then you come with this XP

if CCP wanted in WH died a lot of capitals, they would not shut off API.



You just do not like meat of CarryBears )))

^ so what you're saying, basically, is that, caps jumping wormholes is a bad thing?

You're missing the point, a capital ship in k-space can escape from any position in space to a cyno, i.e. you can siege/triage, coast and cyno out. In wh's you'd have to coast, burn 15km, then jump.

No. Read it again. I'm saying that after the change capitals will be at greater risk after jumping through a wormhole.




I know that very well. If you have to burn 15km back to wormhole, one would wonder why you actually jumped in the first place if the place was too hot. And if you jumped aware of the danger, well then; deal with loosing a ship.

So erm, I'm supposed to tell corpies that:

- rolling is now going to take longer (which is dull. PLS GIVE MORE DULL)
- if we need to ditch a chain full of groups we can't handle, it ain't happening so we might as well all log off or risk getting our rolling ships ganked (why would we ever risk that?)

I thought the 'content' part of w-space was finding something to do via rolling. Nerf content much? I don't care how much coding went into this feature, it's wasted effort so scrap it.

on the plus side BOT single handedly supplies most of the funds for HKs SRP with their carrier loss program so I don't see much changes for you guys...

bud-dum-tis....

20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:

1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.

2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.

3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.

4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.

5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.


The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.

I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.


EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.

EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).

Yeah like it is so easy to do that - I lost count on how many times my alliance had an cloaked Interdictor parked next to a wh waiting for the other site to come online or bring something to our side ... Before this proposed change (no i-¦m not gonna accept this is happening I-¦ havent given up the hope yet) we had in most case hope that they don-¦t wait long enough for their timers to reset ... when this goes live all we have to is wait till they try to close it ... and when they try your above stated trick they will be in a world of hurt - because this will exactly be the thing we will be waiting for - the moment he warps away in whatevcer kind of ship the bubble will be up ... forcing him to crawl back to the hole and if his friends aren-¦t abel to bring in superior numbers through the already damaged hole, which is quite a possibility since we are a rather small alliance - he will lose not only his ship but his capsule as well.
And to be honest i also lost count on how many occasion we discovered that we had a cloaked interdictor sitting within our hole for hours before we came online.
So please for the love of god, could you and everybody else who mentioned it please stop to bring this supposed "counter" up and up again, because it clearly isn-¦t one to the new mechanics.
This change, like i tried to explain at lenght here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4879997#post4879997 before in the now closed thread does nothing else than tipping the scales in favour of the big wh corps and the null and low sec cartels - then closing a hole leading into such space, when there is just one single person in local capable of opening a cyno will be a painstaking endeavour - and they, contrary to common belief exist, null sec systems where people are actually playing the game. (They are rare but, once upon a time you-¦ll find one)
I once again appeal to CCP that this change is the first step in handing over w-space to the big ones.
This will like many have stated wage the engangments in short term timeframes but long term there will be a wasteland of activity in w-space, then to be honest with you i-¦have my reasonable doubt that my alliance is gonna survive this change ... well we most likely will try to adapt, but you don-¦t find guys ypu get along with and can trust overnight - exspecially the trust part is an utmost necessity given the pos rights - and i sincerly doubt our actuall member base will be to happy about the need to grow at least 3-4 times bigger just to not lose ships every time we try to close a null or other big hole.
And to furhter this if i woulk have wanted to be part of the big ones i would be living in null ...

Well what i would like to add is that ccp is raising the risk for everybody living in w-space a great deal but where is the increase in reward - i always though risk equalls reward - which implies by raising the stakes at which you have to play the riches schould be raised as well.
Man life would be easy if i could just make hundreds of Millions by tending to moon mining pos, protected by a huge alliance ... but we living in wh have to fight the hardest rats, while doing that exposing our ships to potential enemys lying already in wait or rolling into us, and are given the hardest earned isk there is - we don-¦t get bounty directly paid to our wallets we have to loot and salvage the wrecks to get items, which we have to store in our pos sitting in w-space, potentially being at risk to be destroyed ... wait for days to come ... where we find an exit to be able to bring the loot outside for it to be sold on the market ... having on the way to the market cross several w-space systems permanently being at risk of losing the hard earned loot ... which is gonna leave you with nothing ... what actually is gonna happen a lot more often given these changes .... sarcasm on"but all in all sounds quite reasonable, everybody atm not living in w-space is gonna want to after this changes" saracasm out

i just don-¦t see it - sorry.

This is an excellent change. And the reason is perfectly clear. It disallows risk-free defensive hole rolling when some enemy fleet is visible 2 WH away. No ifs-and-buts about it. Every comment here is about fight avoidance, even the ones that attempt to to talk about "rage rolling to find a fight" are really just about whining that someone came into their WH and they have to sit in their POS all day.

Everytime I see a WH that probably leads somewhere, suddenly a few dreads appear and 5s seconds later the signature is gone along with the dreads. Yeah, they were looking for a fight and I have 0.0 space in Stain to sell too.

To be very frank, this entire wihinenaught very much reminds me of the 0.0 AFK cloaker whine thread. And it's still going on, after years and years. Here is one of the later incarnation,

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=281588

Remind you of something too? Oh yes, this thread!

so true xD

1. Takes a minute to warp off a bit and back to the hole. Unless you jump into a tarp, you are safe.
2. see #1
3. yes, jumping through a WH should not be risk-free experience just because you sit in a dread and want to deny someone else a fight.
4. You must be kidding. With 5-min siege timer, it is almost safe to siege a POS with dreads for 1 cycle and jump out, provided you have some scouts and no one knows your plans. If you are trying to guess that jumping into some empty 0.0 system, or random low sec will get supers dropped on you, you are crazy. Unless you want to roll a hole in Amamake or VFK or someplace like that, you are quite safe.

As evidence, if what you said was remotely true, L3gs would not have lost his titan.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/40580154/

Why didn't someone save him??.. oh right, it takes longer than 1-2 min to actually form any sort of a fleet. Unless your argument is "goons/PL/N3 sit 24/7 online on their multi-boxed SC+archon swarms ready to jump on the poor WHers". Please.

I specifically replied because of this fail, fail, fail point.

5. see #1

You are quite the blue donut troll.
You don't even have agruments to counter that post.
1) it won't take just a minute and you know it. How about add a 5 minute spool up to capitals to jump to a cyno? That would improve the risk to jump capitals and will be as much fun a this change.
2)you didn't even try to counter that one.
3)you clearly have no idea of the current risk
4)when engaging blue donuters on a hole in blue donut space you will be absolutly certain that they will come prepared and will drop a super onto your caps.
They usualy won't even warp to the hole.
And we don't have 200 supers standing by to counter that, jumping more caps in would only get us killed even more and cut of our escape route. But then again i don't expect you to know wormhole mechanics.
5)you didn't even try to counter that one.

This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.