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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 18 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10881
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Posted - 2014.08.06 12:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Reserved for later. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
827
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:27:00 -
[2] - Quote
Poop . |
Andrew Jester
Origin. Black Legion.
579
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:31:00 -
[3] - Quote
Oh this'll be fun If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy |
You're Mum
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
23
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
This is bad, you should feel bad CCPGÇÖs song: 99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs, you take one down patch it around, 127 little bugs in the code
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Viscis Breeze
No Vacancies
38
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:36:00 -
[5] - Quote
This is the worst change. See the other massive thread for reasons why from virtually all wormhole groups. Recruitment: http://bit.ly/1r4G5Pv Website: http://www.no-vacancies.net/ Channel: No Vacancies
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Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
149
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
It should be the speed that you enter the wormhole at rather than mass twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
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Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
48
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:
1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else.
2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain.
3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone.
4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.
5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.
The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.
I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.
EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. |
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CCP Phantom
C C P C C P Alliance
4524
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:39:00 -
[8] - Quote
Please keep your feedback constructive and in accordance with the forum rules.
While you can of course just disagree with the proposed changes, it is much more helpful if you list the reasons and explain why you disagree. The post above by Traiori is a good example of constructive feedback.
Thank you! CCP Phantom - Senior Community Representative - Volunteer Manager |
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Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
16
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:43:00 -
[9] - Quote
There will be far fewer incoming connections from k-space, as more people will warp the wormhole, look at what space is on the other side, and choose not to jump through.
This will reduce the connectedness of w-space more generally. |
BadAssMcKill
ElitistOps
828
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
This Is Not A Good Change . |
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Zlorthishen
Blue-Fire
45
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:43:00 -
[11] - Quote
12.9 km to 16.9 km is still too much.
maybe instead of having large mass ships appear far from the wormhole, SMALL mass ships should instead Blue-Fire : Best Fire |
SwagYolo420
Perkone Caldari State
15
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
how much beer do we need to buy you at fanfest to make you change your mind
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Andrew Jester
Origin. Black Legion.
579
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
I think everything but the distance spawned from WH bit is p cool. If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:47:00 -
[14] - Quote
Personally, I think the 8.7km for an Orca feels about right.
It's 3.7km out of jump-back range at worst, and at best it's in range. On average, assuming 200m/s with MWD, I have to protect my Orca for about 7 seconds to get it back into jump range.
I should probably invest in a better cloak for it. =P |
Nox Arnoux
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
57
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
A key element of overcoming someone else's home system advantage is to be able to reliably refit the capitals we commit (i.e. dreads next to carriers). When capitals have the potential of spawning >30 km from each other, that advantage is nullified. To add insult to injury, the home defenders can still decide where their capitals land, while the attackers are at the mercy of the RNG Gods.
You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided? |
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
51
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Personally, I think the 8.7km for an Orca feels about right.
It's 3.7km out of jump-back range at worst, and at best it's in range. On average, assuming 200m/s with MWD, I have to protect my Orca for about 7 seconds to get it back into jump range.
I should probably invest in a better cloak for it. =P
It's 11.7km on average, 8.7km to jump range at worst (was the orca plated/mwd'd I wonder?).
Read the devblog more carefully. At 200m/s with MWD, that's 40 seconds. Once again, you'd have to warp off/on the hole to get fastest method (I think? I haven't done the exact maths on this one though, as my primary concern is dreads/carriers) |
Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
139
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:52:00 -
[17] - Quote
I agree with almost every point made by Traiori, especially with fielding capitals into a hostile hole, ie it wont happen anymore.
Whose going to jump capitals into a hole where the enemy fleet is already prepared? Any other capitals will be outside of refit range of your Triage. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
70
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
It seems to me that the combination of more difficult rolling of holes, plus the more frequent wormhole spawns, plus the existence of the small mass limit, high mass total, regenerating holes will result in a wormhole chain that is deeper than what we find today.
Instead of groups fishing in their shallow static with larger capital backed fleets, the new environment will promote deep chain diving, especially with smaller ships. This should have the effect of creating more content by nature of random encounters and likely with smaller sized ship gangs.
While you can rageroll in this environment, it is now inherently more dangerous. As a smaller group that enjoys a more isolated lifestyle, many of these changes are troublesome. I do, however, potentially see the design goal here and think that in the end it would be a positive change for WH space in general promoting more people in space which is always a positive thing. |
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
51
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:52:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nox Arnoux wrote:You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided?
In the interests of providing the devs with information that they don't appear to have, how often do you commit multiple capitals into a hostile system during a fight?
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Kadm
Catfish Gumbo Try Rerolling
8
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles. |
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Snakes-On-A-Plane
14
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:57:00 -
[21] - Quote
I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but I feel it is my duty to correct some erroneous perceptions, and level a howitzer at your spin control.
Quote:which caused some consternation among parts of the wormhole community. That is false. Consternation was caused among all parts of the wormhole community. C1 through C6.
If you are allowed to draw the conclusion that it was one segment, then you can also allow yourself to marginalize that segment. But your statement was simply false. Some small few did like the idea, but the vast majority of players, in all areas of J-space, did not. |
MD74
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
19
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Posted - 2014.08.06 14:58:00 -
[22] - Quote
You guys wanted "reasonable feedback"?
Here, have some:
NO! |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:00:00 -
[23] - Quote
Traiori wrote:Gospadin wrote:Personally, I think the 8.7km for an Orca feels about right.
It's 3.7km out of jump-back range at worst, and at best it's in range. On average, assuming 200m/s with MWD, I have to protect my Orca for about 7 seconds to get it back into jump range.
I should probably invest in a better cloak for it. =P It's 11.7km on average, 8.7km to jump range at worst (was the orca plated/mwd'd I wonder?). Read the devblog more carefully. At 200m/s with MWD, that's 40 seconds. Once again, you'd have to warp off/on the hole to get fastest method (I think? I haven't done the exact maths on this one though, as my primary concern is dreads/carriers)
Okay, yea, I misread.
So 8.7km @ 250m/s is 35 seconds plus acceleration time for me, call it 45 seconds. Hrm. That's quite a bit harder, but probably still something I can stomach. Would definitely want/need an off-grid but close bookmark to lower risk, though it'd take longer to roll. |
WoAz
Dark Mason Society
9
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:00:00 -
[24] - Quote
This makes committing 1 or 2 dreads and a triage carrier for a capital brawl nearly impossible for dread refits, as they'll almost always land out of the 5km refit range. Dropping a mobile depot isn't a solution in these fights, as any competent WH entity will prime them before they can come offline.
The ability for carriers and dreads to weave through their cycles and refit is one of the more enjoyable aspects of WH Capital PvP. It's essentially obsolete on the small-gang level in K-Space due to ever growing blobs and dread/super capable entities, and would kill it for attackers here. |
Arestris
Aurora Armaments The Bastion
0
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nice change at all! I really like it. Gone are the times where there was no risk at all, when closing a WH. And while it for sure need a lil bit more effort in future, I think the numbers are absolutly fine. |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
149
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:05:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kadm wrote:I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles.
Where as id like to roll to more hostiles, this just means slowing up the process no end when trying to roll, by the time yo have done 3 holes using the new meathod, you would have been able to do around 6 or 7 depending on warps and speed. All i can now see happining is a 6 bs fleet now becoming the standard for hole rolling, no more cap traps, and a lot less pew on holes, as an attacking fleet has no clue where they will be in relation to other parts of there fleet.
So now the only use for caps is now home defence and pve, while the orca is now just a mining boost ship, so why would you wantto remove on-hole pvp, as this is what WILL happen twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
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Chitsa Jason
Narwhals Ate My Duck. Narwhals Ate My Duck
1272
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:06:00 -
[27] - Quote
There are many good arguments why this change is good and why this change is bad.
I do like the change however as someone pointed out previously it will be harder for higher class people to bring in carriers + dreads for a fight as they will not be able to refit. If there would be a possibility for all the ships to spawn in same random direction for their designated ranges and dread + carrier ranges would be the same I would be happy. Burn the land and boil the sea You can't take the sky from me |
FistyMcBumBardier
Calamitous-Intent Feign Disorder
68
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Good change +1 |
Nox Arnoux
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
59
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:07:00 -
[29] - Quote
Traiori wrote:Nox Arnoux wrote:You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided? In the interests of providing the devs with information that they don't appear to have, how often do you commit multiple capitals into a hostile system during a fight?
We commit the maximum number of capitals to every major wormhole engagement that takes place in someone else's home system. This accounts for the vast majority of the wormhole engagement against other wormhole entities by NoHo in the last 6-8 months. |
Lamhoofd Hashur
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:09:00 -
[30] - Quote
Besides the points noted before by Traiori I would like to point out two other (maybe unintended) side effects.
1. Using multiple carriers in any fight will become useless. The goal of having multiple carriers is most of the times to have the ability to refit of each other and thus become more versatile. Similar to this sometimes carriers are brought in to support dreads so they can refit as well.
By causing capitals to be far apart from each other this gameplay is (mostly) taken away from the group who jumps into the other one. The 'defender' has the time to setup their caps in the way they want. Thus resulting in a benefit for camping the WH until the other guys jump in, even more then currently is the case already.
2. Using multiple dreads will become more powerful. Since dreads are not cluttered together anymore they (in general) will be able to shoot subcaps better, since you will be unable to lower your angular for multiple dreads at the same time. |
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Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
11
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:10:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Please keep your feedback constructive and in accordance with the forum rules. While you can of course just disagree with the proposed changes, it is much more helpful if you list the reasons and explain why you disagree. The post above by Traiori is a good example of constructive feedback. Thank you!
The problem is simple.
You think we roll connexions to close them to be safe to farm leading to less content for other player which is true in only one case : farming in cap.
But it is a BIG mistake.
90% of the time, we roll connexion to find new content (for HS acces, to farm our static, to find pvp target).
Not all the wh corp have cap to farm. Others roll their static to find something to farm because home is empty or not farmable.
This change, even with the new values will make small and mid size corp life harder. Perhaps too much. Leading to less wh entities in W-Space and so less pvp and less content. The exact opposite you wanna reach.
In addition, rolling a wh for small/mid sized corp is already a thing. It is not at all 100% safe.
This change especially is a really bad one. It impact small corps on their very existence, and large corp on a strategic plan. |
Muhamad Jihad
Nocturnal Romance Cynosural Field Theory.
0
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:12:00 -
[32] - Quote
As a long time wormholer I think this is absurd... Many of the fights I go were because we were able to go "All In" per say and send our entire fleet to the other side with their dread on our side, thus creating an instant fight.
This change makes it SUPER easy to jump in 2 dreads be 15-30km apart form each other (optimals) and just blow up everything with very little support before enemies can even get their defense dreads on the field. Then all those pilots who were there are dead, poded and you can't actually fight, where as 2 dreads at 0 on a wh can be countered by getting under there guns - also the mass change puts all smartbombing BS off the hole far enough to smartbomb instantly
Next, i see everything on there including Orca except Freighters... Freighters are a HUGE part of both wormholes, nullsec and logistics for lowsec/nullsec pilots, its already super easy to catch one of the slowest ships in eve by just getting a bubble ahead of it. It completely eliminates low and null pilots from scanning wormholes for logistical reasons unless they are direct, which gets rid of an entire pvp side which has been seen.
Lastly, your "unclosable" frig wormholes aren't going to be used by anyone except people who live in wormholes, because all it will do is bring giant interceptor gangs (20-30) (which are nearly impossible to counter in low numbers in k-space) to null, never into a wormhole because 20 interceptors will do absolutely 0 in a wormhole, where as 20 interceptors in null can roam 30 jumps almost uninterrupted...
Please do give #s on freighters though... |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
688
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:13:00 -
[33] - Quote
I don't think the penalty this gives to larger ship use really brings much constructively to wormhole space while having a slight side effect of shifting the power balance more so towards the bigger established groups at the expense of smaller entities.
While it has some slight (but work "aroundable") implications for collapsing whs with orcas and jump mass, etc. I'd rather see something like for instance using a prop mod when jumping causing you to be thrown further out as this could be combined to make skirmish setups feasible in situations they currently aren't. (Stick a note in the wh information about how prop mods have an effect/advising turning them off). |
xpaulx
Codename-47
9
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:13:00 -
[34] - Quote
Time to shoot the monument |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
688
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:18:00 -
[35] - Quote
xpaulx wrote:Time to shoot the monument
There is a monument in wormhole space? |
Lapin Poilu
Burning Equilibrium Fallen Defiance
5
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
CCP will need to make some new modules for the ships we use to roll holes.
There is already more then enough risk in rolling a hole with an Orca let alone adding this to the equation. |
WoAz
Dark Mason Society
10
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:20:00 -
[37] - Quote
If you want to balance PvP considerations on holes with caps against heightened risk, perhaps make it so caps spawn within range but have an immediate (and possibly shorter) polarization timer. Creates risk for all entities but saves the tedious time of pinging the cap to bring it back into the hole. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1678
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:20:00 -
[38] - Quote
I like the change but i do feel the range is too far for capitals and the orca. It's going to take them minutes to get into jump range while everything else takes seconds. +1 |
DirtyJob
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
1
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.
I think this man touched almost all issues concerning jump to mass correlation with capitals. To add little to 3). That also means no combat rolling to cut enemy forces in half. Especially usefull against larger enemy.
I also agree that making function proportional to momentum would add another tactical flavour to wh fights.
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Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4709
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:21:00 -
[40] - Quote
Traiori wrote:Nox Arnoux wrote:You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided? In the interests of providing the devs with information that they don't appear to have, how often do you commit multiple capitals into a hostile system during a fight?
http://themittani.com/news/noho-versus-exit-post-downtime-brawling is a write up of a fight that happened recently where NOHO did exactly this.
I am also very concerned about the issues with jumping caps into a hostile system. I'm also concerned that this change doesn't actually add that much more risk. I also don't like the additional time it will take to roll holes, which is currently one of the only ways to catch farmers. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Von Keigai
44
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Posted - 2014.08.06 15:23:00 -
[41] - Quote
I'll reiterate the criticism I already posted in the other thread.
Currently, a significant part of the danger in moving many kinds of ships in wspace is that when you jump, you may not be able to immediately cloak. 2000m is the "decloak distance", the distance at which an object prevents cloaking. Wormholes are objects. Usually you land further from the wormhole than 2000m, but often (~20%?), you land closer. If you land closer, there is the opportunity for an enemy to lock you before you can get far enough to cloak.
The risk of not being able to cloak is particularly significant for ships with covert ops cloaks, because once cloaked they can warp. It is nearly impossible to stop one of them without a bubble. Even with a bubble, because they can move at full speed they will usually escape. (And of course T3 scouts will be interdiction nullified.)
Assuming I am correctly understanding the numbers in the dev blog, after Hyperion no ship that jumps a wormhole will ever land closer than 2000m from the wormhole. In fact, even the lightest ships always land at least 3500m from it. Thus, all covert ships will be essentially uncatchable by anything but a bubble. Indeed, all ships will be far enough from the wormhole that they no longer need to worry about the geometry when they warp, because their align cannot take them within decloak distance.
This will affect my play, because currently I do try to catch scouts on wormholes in a Manticore from time to time. I know the chance is not large; in fact I have not actually caught one yet who was paying attention. Still, the chance is there. And I did catch a blockade runner once who got screwed by the RNG. If I knew there was zero chance that covert ships would ever be within the decloak distance, I would not bother to hunt them.
This change would make hunting in a cloaky ship less risky, but I don't agree with that either. Every time I come out 1600m from the wormhole is a tiny scare, and each time I survive it is a tiny victory. vonkeigai.blogspot.com |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
688
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:24:00 -
[42] - Quote
Lapin Poilu wrote:CCP will need to make some new modules for the ships we use to roll holes.
There is already more then enough risk in rolling a hole with an Orca let alone adding this to the equation.
Personally don't think the risk side of it should be a factor aside from the slight implications of balance of power in regards to bigger entities v smaller ones - wormhole space should never be safe anyway.
That it potentially makes things quite messy for people going all in for a fight and makes hole collapsing much more of a drag without really bringing anything meaningful into the balance in doing so while some modifications of the way it works could bring more meaningful changes i.e. making skirmish setups more feasible are a bigger consideration IMO. |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
150
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
WoAz wrote:If you want to balance PvP considerations on holes with caps against heightened risk, perhaps make it so caps spawn within range but have an immediate (and possibly shorter) polarization timer. Creates risk for all entities but saves the tedious time of pinging the cap to bring it back into the hole.
So you jump a cap in, its still in the current range, but then cant jump back for 2mins / 2 1/2 mins? Me likey twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
274
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
The biggest issue with this change I see is you are adding work/time to rolling a wormhole, which is something many of us do 10s, maybe even 100 times a day.
I completely understand that your intention is to make rolling the WH "riskier" and " require more support" But in reality 99% of the times we are rolling our wormholes is because its dead/empty/undesirable. Were getting rid of it because it doesn't have content, so we can go find content. All this change does is make it take longer and require more effort to go FIND content.
I hate my targets rolling the WH on them as much as the next guy, but this is honestly going to hamper hunters more than them. Hunters are the ones constantly churning through whs looking for targets. With the K162 appearance change theyll be rolling even fewer WHs than ever. The Wormhole Kid |
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:27:00 -
[45] - Quote
DirtyJob wrote:
I also agree that making function proportional to momentum would add another tactical flavour to wh fights.
Not momentum.
Momentum would mean that slow-moving mass-heavy things (like dreads) would land as far away as fast-moving mass-light things (like ishtars).
Function should be inversely proportional to mass, but proportional to speed (probably to max speed, as to avoid the issues of trying to go through wormholes at maximum speed).
Bonus points if wormhole exit was also directional, as this could also help to solve problems regarding dread grouping. |
Tineoidea Asanari
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:29:00 -
[46] - Quote
I dont think that the basics of the idea are bad, as it will bring more diversity into fleet setups and those 1600mm HAC/T3/Guardians will be still viable but the same goes then for fast propelling shield fleets. I like that part, really.
But how you do that is a real No-Go CCP. You are basically destroying possibilities to create content and make alot of setups (like Triage Carrier) useless on a tactical scale. This might be not intended, but as many other people told you - you are doing it.
Here are 2 ideas i read somewhere which might should be considered valid options:
1.) Make people spawn the closer the more mass they have. Kitey shield fleets will be able to get away from the enemy, Caps are in refit + logistic range - everything perfect.
2.) Make ships spawn in a cone towards the sun. That way we could predict at least a bit where we spawn and decide if it's worth the risk, so we are in combat range and not scattered around a big sphere and easily shot down.
And Edit says: Maybe increase the refit range of carriers. This would help here alot. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
135
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:30:00 -
[47] - Quote
I noticed in the Dev Blog that you said you had talked to CSM members. Unless I miss-counted, only one CSM member was a dedicated wormhole guy, with maybe two others who knew what they were talking about. The rest were nullsec blocs with little interest in wormholes, and they probably would give you all the exact same threadnaut of cons at the idea of implementing the same mass change to nullsec cynos and jump bridges. |
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
Von Keigai wrote: Assuming I am correctly understanding the numbers in the dev blog, after Hyperion no ship that jumps a wormhole will ever land closer than 2000m from the wormhole. In fact, even the lightest ships always land at least 3500m from it. Thus, all covert ships will be essentially uncatchable by anything but a bubble. Indeed, all ships will be far enough from the wormhole that they no longer need to worry about the geometry when they warp, because their align cannot take them within decloak distance.... This change would make hunting in a cloaky ship less risky, but I don't agree with that either. Every time I come out 1600m from the wormhole is a tiny scare, and each time I survive it is a tiny victory.
As I said in the other thread (or it might have been on reddit), this "small" chance is easily where I lose the most T3s. It makes nullified cloaky T3s essentially invulnerable save for unlucky server ticks in wormspace.
|
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:31:00 -
[49] - Quote
Gotta love this, 'we're listening to your concerns' = Yes we're doing it whether you like it or not.
If you want fights with Capitals in WH's, they are going to occur at the door. This change will strand Capitals too far apart to fight, and follow any plan effectively, so all you'll achieve is the removal of Capitals from Worm Hole fights, in other words you'll make fights more unlikely, not more likely. So either stop being so idiotic and changing stuff for the sake of it (A Change that the (almost) entire Wormhole community DOES NOT BLOODY WANT!.)
Wormholes, according to your own propaganda, actually work. So stop arsing about with stuff that actually works FFS, and exactly what does this address anyway? So far I've not heard any reasons/issues that this addresses, aside from the aforementioned - ooo lets change stuff...
Wormholes are already particularly dangerous, far far more so than Null-sec. The wormhole community does not want a 'fix' that is going to turn Wormholes into another stoopid stagfest. |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
150
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
If your going to do this with wormholes, why not jumpbridges and cynos as well? twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
|
Dark Armata
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
123
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:35:00 -
[51] - Quote
The dev blog has made me feel better about the general direction you are going for.
However this change completely negates a lot of the options small-med corps/alliances have for "modifying" the fight in their favor.
While this change may see a lot more unintended player interaction, i.e. ganks.
It will however see a lot less intended player interaction. As basically any action that requires jumping through a wormhole now carries soo much more risk. In fact in a lot of cases it will basically be suicide.
As soon as something becomes completely suicidal, a lot of people will just log off.
It will no longer be a case of risk v reward - could lose ships, will shut hole. Instead it will be a case of loss v nothing - will lose ships, hole will still not be shut (as they would have died on the other side after spawning so far away).
Please, at least put this particular change on the back burner for a while.
Implement all the others, watch the effects they have and then decide whether this is necessary.
W-Space WAS Best Space*
*Until CCP decided W-Space should be the next null.
|
Ann Markson
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:37:00 -
[52] - Quote
The main cause of "Danger" In wormholes is that they are well connected and those connections are unpredictable, while on the same time the reason they fit small groups so well is that they are extremely flexible, which is a very important niche in the time of Powerblocks and super escalations.
With the new way k162 appear people are a lot less safer when farming, as every dedicated fleet can then roll, form and jump into the hole in anticipation of some NPC farming to hop onto.
However noone will be interested in rolling anymore, as it keeps a high risk and makes you very vulnerable, especially when having a wh->low or wh->null connection.
With the propsed changes most wh groups will end up with waiting for their static to roll itself and either have luck and do something out of it, or log off for the next day, which should absolutely not be ccps intention.
Also when there is a big group->small group connection the small group has no chance of doing anything until that changes as the big group that has activity in all timezones will camp the wh for anyone trying to close it early, at worst getting bored and shooting towers to tickle some pvp they wont get. At the end of this process another group will have left W-Space, and W-Space will more or less fastly face the same issues of power blocks and projection like null faces as of know, which are a major concern to most of the playerbase.
If the target is to create a better pvp meta around kiting/long range, then having it reverse way, so basically smaller ships can spawn further away, while bigger will be closer to the wormhole they just went through. This will give leightwieght kiters a chance to get away, while keeping the overall wh pvp healthy.
This is written from a small WH groups perspective, not from the 500 character corps point of view, so i hope i defended the small groups point of view here.
|
Frothgar
V0LTA Triumvirate.
89
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:37:00 -
[53] - Quote
As a 4 year WH resident, I love these changes.
I see little to no risk involved in "Rage Rolling" as the responding party would have ~1-2minutes to respond to the presence of capitals cycling their WH. Which, unless they have a fleet actively PvPing, the chances of actually catching the caps is still quite low.
I see no issue with making "Rage rolling" take 3 minutes longer per hole, as warping the caps to the initial WH probably took longer than having them re-approach once they're in.
The Sky isn't falling, and its nice to see some of the absurd "Safety" measures we've come to rely on get messed with. |
Frothgar
V0LTA Triumvirate.
89
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:38:00 -
[54] - Quote
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:If your going to do this with wormholes, why not jumpbridges and cynos as well?
I'd like to see this as well ^_^ |
LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
118
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:38:00 -
[55] - Quote
It seems the Developer's main concern is the speed at which rage rolling can occur, if this is the case why not simply affect the wormhole timers rather than the locations of ships landing, the same goal could be accomplished without adversely causing all the problems this change would constitute.
For instance, create a timer (like polarization) that is a coefficient of the mass of the ship in such a way that capitals would take longer to jump back each jump (unlike polarization that allows for an instant return jump). This would prevent the capital from being stranded off the wormhole and thus an easy target to tackle, allow people to jump their caps in and remain within refitting range of each other, and allow them to remain in jump back range. The change would have no effect on groups ability to pvp with their capitals, as siege dreads and triage capitals wouldn't be able to jump back for 5 minutes or more anyway. It also still increases danger of rolling holes, as your capital can potentially be bumped off the wormhole.
Overall I feel a change with likeness to what I suggested would achieve the same goal the devs are hoping to achieve without causing the long list of problems the current planned change does. |
Gallosek
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:39:00 -
[56] - Quote
From the article, the stated design drivers are:
Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
Meaning that CCP wants to stop the safety of collapsing yourself in. This mechanic does allow groups (especially small ones)to operate significantly more safely, and the proposed change does appear make it more dangerous for them. This sort of player is going to want to avoid combat regardless though, so they will probably choose to "make do with bubbles and scouts", which is only avoided as it is more annoying... however it is still fairly effective at the stated aim of "doing sites with minimal risk". In the very early days of wormholes this was a normal mode of operation, especially while pilots were mostly sub-capital and orcas were rare/expensive.
However I believe this underestimates the effect the "quick roll" mechanic has on another play style. Those who actively *seek* combat roll wormholes. This is an emergent mechanic which disrupts the above "mitigation" as well as any other defensive wormhole collapsing mechanic. Nothing about your own ability to collapse a wormhole can prepare you for an incoming connection with an interdictor (short of being bait with a fleet larger than any that may jump in).
I believe the proposed change to jump distance fails to meet the stated design goal whilst inadvertently making it SAFER for those who wish to avoid combat as it is less likely they will have a hostile gang appear from a previously uncharted wormhole connection.
The random "frigate" only wormholes are a far better counter to "complete safety" as it makes it easier to inject scouts into a system in which you can then stage a fleet in for later action. |
MadMuppet
A Better Corp Name
1115
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:39:00 -
[57] - Quote
My opinion is that where the respawn point is on the other side should be similar for all groups going through at the same time. I'll try to explain.
When a WH is jumped, a countdown timer for the next 10 seconds is fired. All ships going through that WH at that time will spawn on the other side in a fairly close proximity (under 5km) with the distance being determined by the sum of the masses of all ship that hit that window. This means that so long as everybody jumps in that 10 second window they will appear roughly together on the other side at a random point at a distance based on their total mass (or the mass of the largest ship). Note that the 10 second timer is based on a jump from either side. Travel time through the hole would be a minimum of 10 seconds. Note that the 10 second timer is invisible to players
This does a few things: -It keeps a fleet fairly close together for operations -It avoids ships popping out 40 km apart on the other side -If a chasing ship (or fleet) jumps at the same time, they land close as well. -Running away can be a challenge. Since the timer is picked off from either side, a fast ship could potentially trip of a fleet and break it up on a jump because they hit on a late part of a 10 second cycle
One last piece. A WH that closes due to mass should spit people back on on the side they tried to enter from for the last ten seconds of its life at the distances proposed on their mass.
This message brought to you by Experience(tm). When common sense fails you, experience will come to the rescue. Experience(tm) from the makers of CONCORD. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
67
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:39:00 -
[58] - Quote
My corporation will not be greatly affected by this change. We crush with BSs!
However, I do not think that this change is good for WHs as a hole for the reasons posted already.
Furthermore, I do not understand the logic behind making K162s spawn when you jump through and at the same time making it harder to collapse with capitals. The net effect will be a much higher delay in K162 then ever proposed in this other thread and at the same time crushing in subcaps becomes a lot safer. Maybe this is intended but i do not like it.
If you want to make crushing harder: make k162 spawn instantly. if you want to make hunting easier: increase siege cycles time (Edit: this would be realy dumb though) and/or add more scrambling and hard to kill NPCs (and have them split points).
At some point in the future i would like to pilot my archon in a fight like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNbn0OS87Vw With the planed changes I do not see these fight ever happening. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
909
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:40:00 -
[59] - Quote
Fozzie, I have read through your other stickies and replied with my views of them and asked the odd question for clarity or added a comment for consideration.
However this change is unfortunately just beyond that point. Some things can be improved by tweaking the numbers or strength of the effect.
This however is mistaken, misplaced, and just a plain bad Idea, It is beyond rescue.
I know some have advised you that wormhole space needs "shaking up" but that does not mean actively destroying things in the hope something better might appear. That is bad advice of the worst kind, please disregard it.
All your other ideas have some merit, possibly you will take feedback on board and make them better.
This however as has been explained in depth, is just quite horrific, and if implemented will be a source of regret forever.
Do not even begin to think about polishing it to make it more appealing, we all know the saying, and you know some things just need to be flushed into the toilet and never spoken of again. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Orange Aideron
Blue-Fire
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:41:00 -
[60] - Quote
I only have one question: How far does our titian come out on the other side? |
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SwagYolo420
Perkone Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:43:00 -
[61] - Quote
Orange Aideron wrote:I only have one question: How far does our titian come out on the other side?
The wreck spawns 420km away. |
Quincy Thibaud
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:44:00 -
[62] - Quote
Nox Arnoux wrote:A key element of overcoming someone else's home system advantage is to be able to reliably refit the capitals we commit (i.e. dreads next to carriers). When capitals have the potential of spawning >30 km from each other, that advantage is nullified. To add insult to injury, the home defenders can still decide where their capitals land, while the attackers are at the mercy of the RNG Gods.
You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided?
The defender in a wormhole should have all of the advantages as stated above. This makes attacking even more risky and gives the defender even more advantages. It will lead to more LOL-RNG kills of people trying to roll holes, but it's not going to generate large scale fights.
Rolling holes for the most part in C6/C5 space is about finding fights and possibly ganks. You are again making this harder to do. Would Rooks And Kings have bothered trying to roll for AHARM in Clarion Call 3 if it was going to take them 10 times as long?
Lets say there was no risk, just the wasted time in rolling holes in motoring back to the hole is a red flag. Right now null sec is stuck in stagnation because epic structure grinding is totally boring. Now you want to throw a similar mechanic in wormhole space - wasting more and more game time.
How about for a change CCP carefully think this change through? CCP, your thinking is flawed. If the idea is to induce more risk to a certain behavior you will get what Eve players will always do, make that risk/reward calculation. The result of that calculation will precipitate a decision that it is less worth the risk.
The other changes on cursory review seem fine, this one is flawed.
|
XOS Psymon
Three Stars Association
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:47:00 -
[63] - Quote
Hello,
In my honnest opinion, WHS is mostly designed for small entities to have access to a Null Sec Space, What i mean there, is that we can bring a 70ish pilots corporation holding a system, while it's IMPOSSIBLE in K-Space NullSec, thanks to CFC... The only way for players of such groups to evolve within 0.0 space is to be the slave from one of those Huge PBlocks, witch is actually the real problem, that's why there is so much new commers to WHS, thsi is clearly not the point here though, but, why change WHS dynamics while it's K-SPACE 0.0 the real issue from this game, sooner or later, it's going to be like the Asian EvE Online server, 1 Power block for the whole 0.0 space ?
So, why CCP should'nt do such modifications regarding Jumping ranges? The answer is simple, rolling will take more time, so chain-collapsing will take more time, will be more risky and more frustrating, there will be less PvP in such conditions. The only improve for PvP, is that small group of 30-70 ish players will have their Caps/Orcas Ganked by huge groups in tehir static.
Sometime, in WHS, speed means safety, sometimes you don't want to have a 400 members corp in the WH next to you. Of course gameplay will evolve to a new point where Cap Pilots rolling Statics will find themselve traped in the other side and ganked alone. But think about the consequences of small gangs wanting to roll quickly to make the difference versius a huge corp, it is sometime possible for small gangs to pass through the WH 3 Orcas front and back while the other orca from the huge gang is rolling, this way, it is possible for the small gang to get a fight versius a limited number of player, there we have almost the same amounts.
I Bet huge gangs will stop chain collapsing cause it's going to be a true Pain in the ass. Originally It took us about 5 hours to CC to a target C6, now it will take twice the time, we were bored already, what do you think about regarding pilots into C4/C5 doing such (x4 amounts of WH comparing to C6) ?
Having no local, and no-aggression on gate, polarization, all this factors makes WHS a tactical place to be, this is not going anywhere if you start making it no-small-gangs friendly! Plus, having orcas @20km from WH within LS/NS KSPACE, this is going to be just awfull because of the local channel.
I could love almost 70% of this patch, but this part is just no way to go for me and for the other 3 pages before this reply.
Regards, Psymon |
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:48:00 -
[64] - Quote
Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. |
|
CCP Lebowski
C C P C C P Alliance
163
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:51:00 -
[65] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:In this change's current form active modules do not affect the distance that you will land from the wormhole. This is due to technical issues surrounding the mass calculations for your ship, which we are planning to fix, but may not make it into the Hyperion release.
Just wanted to make this known for the sake of full disclosure. Posting this here as well for visibility. CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/ccp_lebowski |
|
Simsung Padecain
Hard Knocks Inc.
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:52:00 -
[66] - Quote
If possible, I'd like the other thread that I've created also taken into account here as a thread with player suggestions. The community reaction to this change is very well deserved.
I'm not saying that changes are bad - I love pretty much every single thing planned for Hyperion, except this one.
I just cannot swallow it.
Reasons were listed in this and old thread, hopefully you don't need me to repeat myself.
We have been discussing this mechanic in our corp since it was discovered, and I haven't heard a positive opinion on it yet. (Mind you, it wouldn't hurt hard knocks at all apart from time consumed while ragerolling, as we always have a complete intel on our chains, keep scouts on high alert for new sigs, we're familiar with every entity that's a threat to us in W-space).
Even if our carrier / dreadnaught gets caught, we can assemble a massive support fleet in a very little time.
Unlike smaller folks in WH. This change will be crippling to their everyday activities. Not only finding content will be MUCH harder to do, be it PvP, PvE, or even a K-space connection to sell / buy things will bear an unreasonable risk, it will also consume much more time, basically making this game a struggle, instead of being a game (supposed to be fun right?).
Many of you probably participated in ragerolling. It requires commitment from most of the corp members (requires a big player numbers), constant high-alert as a decision to risk some tens of billion of isk might happen anytime. Then there's time. 8 minutes per hole? That's scanning, warping, rolling, waiting for new sig and checking out the new system again. To make the calculations easier, let's round it up to 10 holes an hour. Only a small percentage of eve players lives in Wormholes, and most of those afaik are in c1-c2 doing industry stuff. Chance to find a group that is active, doing something outside of their POS shields and in a position where they can be engaged in one way or another is already very low. Slowing down rage rolling isn't serving ANY positive purposes, only negative ones. As I said - crippling to smaller group possibilites and making already painful activity (ragerolling) even worse.
I could repeat every thing that was already said, but I feel like all our moaning is to no avail. Please prove me wrong CCP.
#edit Reading that "fixing" active modules influence on distance convinced me that our moaning here is meaningless, as the code was already written and it's making its was to Tranquility.
I am dissapointed, and very sad. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
652
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:53:00 -
[67] - Quote
Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. a lot of the arguments against this change appear to stem from a premise that wormholers are entitled to control every aspect of the wormhole in which they live, rather than wormholes being a place where you deal with uncertainty and must constantly adapt
that doesn't seem like a good argument to me |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4713
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:54:00 -
[68] - Quote
Gallosek wrote:From the article, the stated design drivers are: Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space. Meaning that CCP wants to stop the safety of collapsing yourself in. This mechanic does allow groups (especially small ones)to operate significantly more safely, and the proposed change does appear make it more dangerous for them. This sort of player is going to want to avoid combat regardless though, so they will probably choose to "make do with bubbles and scouts", which is only avoided as it is more annoying... however it is still fairly effective at the stated aim of "doing sites with minimal risk". In the very early days of wormholes this was a normal mode of operation, especially while pilots were mostly sub-capital and orcas were rare/expensive. However I believe this underestimates the effect the "quick roll" mechanic has on another play style. Those who actively *seek* combat roll wormholes. This is an emergent mechanic which disrupts the above "mitigation" as well as any other defensive wormhole collapsing mechanic. Nothing about your own ability to collapse a wormhole can prepare you for an incoming connection with an interdictor (short of being bait with a fleet larger than any that may jump in). I believe the proposed change to jump distance fails to meet the stated design goal whilst inadvertently making it SAFER for those who wish to avoid combat as it is less likely they will have a hostile gang appear from a previously uncharted wormhole connection. The random "frigate" only wormholes are a far better counter to "complete safety" as it makes it easier to inject scouts into a system in which you can then stage a fleet in for later action.
The K162 spawn thing doesn't accomplish this goal either. It makes it far easier to warp to all your holes and not jump through to avoid spawning the other side, where previously one had to not warp to them. CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
|
DirtyJob
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:55:00 -
[69] - Quote
Traiori wrote:DirtyJob wrote:
I also agree that making function proportional to momentum would add another tactical flavour to wh fights.
Not momentum. Momentum would mean that slow-moving mass-heavy things (like dreads) would land as far away as fast-moving mass-light things (like ishtars). Function should be inversely proportional to mass, but proportional to speed (probably to max speed, as to avoid the issues of trying to go through wormholes at maximum speed). Bonus points if wormhole exit was also directional, as this could also help to solve problems regarding dread grouping.
Even better. But still makes catching covert ships much harder if not impossible. |
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:55:00 -
[70] - Quote
I've been living in one WH or another ever since they were implemented and and here is my 2 cents:
In addition to Traiori's arguments with which I completely agree, I'd like to add that the spawn range distance will discourage small and medioum groups from rolling their statics and since large groups are verry scace in WH space, it make WH chains a lot more static/unchangin overall.
You will basically be able to relly that system A currently connected to system B via 7 WHs will still be connected 10 hours from now (as long as no WHs large groups live in the interim systems and no WHs naturally reached end of life). The increased number of random WHs won't make any difference in this.
As per people 'adapting' and finding new ways to colapse WHs, you can only make an orca/dread move so fast , can only field so many 'colapse' fit battleships in a medium sized corp and untimately ain't nobody got time for that. Rather just treat WHs chains like nullspace and just go roaming in them .... I sincearly hope this is not what's actually intended becauseif so, I'd rather just go back to mining which is what i did for the first 2 years of eve. |
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Alexis Dy'neren
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
As somebody who has been really enjoying flying the Prospect since it was released, this change is a good thing for me. The survivability of covops frigates travelling through wormholes is currently drastically reduced by the fact that they will sometimes spawn on the other side of a wormhole less than 2000m away from the entrance & thus be unable to immediately re-cloak - jumping into a camp & trying to warp off is almost certain death if the campers are paying any attention. If I understand this change, the new lowest distance to spawn from the hole will be about 3.5km, which will certainly give me more confidence to dive into more wormholes & will hopefully encourage other explorers/ninja-gas-harvesters to do the same. |
Zmikund
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:57:00 -
[72] - Quote
This idea is bad for so many reasons written above ... if u want to slow down wormhole rolling how about making it less invasive into actual combat tactics ... as was written above, dreads spawning too far from carrier makes big tactical disadvantage ... How about adding mass-based jump timer instead mass-based wormhole distance ... For example ... average dread after jumping trough wormohle will have 150 sec jump timer for any wormhole ... timer will start ticking after decloack ... Carrier 120 sec, BS 30 sec etc. |
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
68
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:57:00 -
[73] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:In this change's current form active modules do not affect the distance that you will land from the wormhole. This is due to technical issues surrounding the mass calculations for your ship, which we are planning to fix, but may not make it into the Hyperion release.
Just wanted to make this known for the sake of full disclosure. Posting this here as well for visibility.
This implies that dreads are going to land even further away once modules do start to have a place in that calculation. If not for the fact that distance is already irrelevant if it's more than 15km, I'd be worried.
This might make Orca pilots a little nervous however. More slowboating backwards... |
WoAz
Dark Mason Society
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:57:00 -
[74] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. a lot of the arguments against this change appear to stem from a premise that wormholers are entitled to control every aspect of the wormhole in which they live, rather than wormholes being a place where you deal with uncertainty and must constantly adapt that doesn't seem like a good argument to me
Rage-rolling to force connections is part of that uncertainty for the receiving end. This makes it much more difficult for larger entities to brew content. |
Gallosek
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:58:00 -
[75] - Quote
Two step wrote:Gallosek wrote:From the article, the stated design drivers are: Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space. Meaning that CCP wants to stop the safety of collapsing yourself in. This mechanic does allow groups (especially small ones)to operate significantly more safely, and the proposed change does appear make it more dangerous for them. This sort of player is going to want to avoid combat regardless though, so they will probably choose to "make do with bubbles and scouts", which is only avoided as it is more annoying... however it is still fairly effective at the stated aim of "doing sites with minimal risk". In the very early days of wormholes this was a normal mode of operation, especially while pilots were mostly sub-capital and orcas were rare/expensive. However I believe this underestimates the effect the "quick roll" mechanic has on another play style. Those who actively *seek* combat roll wormholes. This is an emergent mechanic which disrupts the above "mitigation" as well as any other defensive wormhole collapsing mechanic. Nothing about your own ability to collapse a wormhole can prepare you for an incoming connection with an interdictor (short of being bait with a fleet larger than any that may jump in). I believe the proposed change to jump distance fails to meet the stated design goal whilst inadvertently making it SAFER for those who wish to avoid combat as it is less likely they will have a hostile gang appear from a previously uncharted wormhole connection. The random "frigate" only wormholes are a far better counter to "complete safety" as it makes it easier to inject scouts into a system in which you can then stage a fleet in for later action. The K162 spawn thing doesn't accomplish this goal either. It makes it far easier to warp to all your holes and not jump through to avoid spawning the other side, where previously one had to not warp to them.
Agreed, I was referring to the "frigate sized wormholes that you couldn't collapse" though. THEY make it easier to insert scouts as how many who avoid combat are going to camp a WH for 16 hours straight... every time |
Centurax
Dracos Dozen
52
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:59:00 -
[76] - Quote
On first view I would have to say no to this feature, but I am sure that those of us who live in WHs will quickly adapt to this, but adding needless extra time to hole rolling is not the answer here.
If this stays in the expansion then perhaps adding a module to a ship that significantly increases the mass of a smaller faster ship so that they could be used as an alternative to jumping a Dread/Carrier through a WH, this would be a good solution for smaller corps that operate in WHs. Would be nice to have something as an alternative to jumping an Orca back and forth all the time to collapse holes.
|
Dorijan
Hoover Inc. Pandemic Legion
58
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 15:59:00 -
[77] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:In this change's current form active modules do not affect the distance that you will land from the wormhole. This is due to technical issues surrounding the mass calculations for your ship, which we are planning to fix, but may not make it into the Hyperion release.
Just wanted to make this known for the sake of full disclosure. Posting this here as well for visibility.
CCP releasing unfinished ... ahem "features"? |
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:00:00 -
[78] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. a lot of the arguments against this change appear to stem from a premise that wormholers are entitled to control every aspect of the wormhole in which they live, rather than wormholes being a place where you deal with uncertainty and must constantly adapt that doesn't seem like a good argument to me
The dynamic quality of wormholes creates an environment where you can go several days without having anything to shoot. This being a game where the primary goal is to shoot things, some amount of control needs to be there. We're not suggesting we get a menu where we can select which hole we roll into next, and we're not asking for any advantage we haven't already had. We're just asking that the current mechanic not be made worse.
|
Rena Senn
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
114
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:00:00 -
[79] - Quote
It's an unfortunate fact of game design that people who live in high end wormholes for any significant amount of time usually end up training POS Spinning V out of necessity. We might not like it, but the truth of the fact is that it's often a much larger hassle to do replacement shopping and get ships (especially caps) back in the hole after being podded out, than it is to just go play DoA or something and wait out an enemy gang who significantly outnumbers you. Most of us don't mind a close or even uphill fight, but jumping into an obviously suicidal situation in a whale of a ship and getting podded is just pointlessly masochistic. Thus the wormhole environment itself actually encourages people to stop playing the game when certain common situations occur.
Capital ship combat rolling was one of the few ways for a smaller group to try and even the battlefield by using a maneuver that was already at high risk of being trapped by cloaked gangs. Now with this change you've ensured that many more groups who find themselves outnumbered will either log off or arrange inconsequential duels at the sun, instead of commit to fights in that admirably foolhardy way that tends to generate player driven content, get recounted at news sites and fanfest pub crawls, and retain PVP loving customers in the long run.
The question you have to ask yourself is not "if people still roll holes with caps, will engagements around the hole be more interesting?" or "assuming people still roll holes with caps, will they come up with interesting new strategies?" but rather "given that everyone will know ahead of time the risks and labor involved for loss replacement, will people still roll holes with caps at all when they don't have to?" As you can very clearly see from both threads, the majority consensus from people who actually live in high end wormholes and have to deal with your mechanics every day, the answer is a resounding NO.
The option when rolling has always been either use caps, don't use caps, or don't roll at all. Those last two options aren't going anywhere, and despite many wormholers being Scrooge McDuck rich, the logistics of replacing wormhole cap losses haven't gotten any easier or less tedious. Is the goal of this change to encourage people to do tedious activities more often, or more frequently log out and stop playing? If that's not the case, then from a game design perspective your intentions are obviously not going to line up with your results. |
Snakes-On-A-Plane
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:01:00 -
[80] - Quote
IMO, we have to stop assuming that increasing the risk of conflict = more conflict. That's simply not true. CCP, you have years of data to prove it's not true. All of your data tells you it is not.
Look at low sec. There's more risk to miners. So by this logic, there should be lots of miner kills in lowsec. Check your data, but I think we all know it doesn't happen often. Question: What actually did increase conflict in low sec? Why, allowing a high income for cheap ships. Decreasing the risk for PVE, increased PVP.
The Mittani apparently understood the truth, as he posted that ratters are the plankton of the Nullsec food chain. What is good for ratters is good for their hunters, and for the hunters of the hunters, and so on up the chain. The concept is universal in all areas of Eve, and probably many other games. Increasing the attractiveness of an area for PVE, will increase it's attractiveness for PVP.
Why is this not understood?
If you intend to make it less safe for PVE, you have to institute a corresponding change to make PVE more valuable to match the increased risk. Otherwise, you're going to end up with less... Plankton. BTW, this is exactly what happened when making grav sigs into ore anoms.
This is sort of a general comment aimed at many of your changes.
-We will have constant frigate holes into systems where miners can be caught just by warping to an ore anom. What miner in his right mind will ever mine with one of these small WH's in his system? They will POS-hug for the entire day, at best. This also applies to running anoms in low-class wormholes, where a pack of frigates can easily take down a solo site runner. After a few cheap kills, they simply won't do it anymore, and activity will decrease all the way up the food chain. If you still want miners to die in wormholes, you're going to need to throw them a bone so they come out of their dens. Bring back Grav sigs IMO.
-You have made it more difficult to use one mechanism a miner or (low class solo) site runner still has to maintain any level of safety. Hole control. Personally I don't like hole-control being used as the means to safety, and would prefer the grav sigs return with their need to watch the D. But you've provided no counterbalance to what will seem to them to be a nerf. Continually adjusting the game to remove whatever means the PVErs try to use to balance their risk, is just going to reduce their activity in J-space. It's not going to give us more kills. It's going to give us less kills.
This is my primary objection when considering these two changes. Though not my only one.
|
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
653
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:02:00 -
[81] - Quote
Reve Uhad wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. a lot of the arguments against this change appear to stem from a premise that wormholers are entitled to control every aspect of the wormhole in which they live, rather than wormholes being a place where you deal with uncertainty and must constantly adapt that doesn't seem like a good argument to me The dynamic quality of wormholes creates an environment where you can go several days without having anything to shoot. This being a game where the primary goal is to shoot things, some amount of control needs to be there. We're not suggesting we get a menu where we can select which hole we roll into next, and we're not asking for any advantage we haven't already had. We're just asking that the current mechanic not be made worse. that argument is obsoleted by "We will be significantly increasing the spawn rate of all the existing wormholes that originate in W-space" |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:02:00 -
[82] - Quote
First off, I want to make it clear that I do not represent all of Hard Knocks or in portion I do intact represent because at the very core you have much of HK split on this issue. In my opinion this is a direct attack on larger wormhole based entities. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I fought for a very long time to shrink HK and get us under 200 pilots.
I think the thing to keep in mind when doing these 6 week patches is that you need to test them more than 2 weeks. This is a fairly massive change to the way wormholes currently function and even with all the negative feedback in just the last few days, it seems you haven't given much of a care and decided to go ahead anyways. In fact, if you took this out of the patch and moved forward without just the remaining changes I have no doubt that wormholers would praise this as one of the better patches for us since the original induction, largely because the remaining patches are manageable tweaks as opposed to sweeping changes to the fundamentals of wormholes space.
Let's be honest here, we all know there are people who have holes for the sole purpose of making boatloads of ISK. The reality to that is those pilots have spent billions in additional pilots and ships and are taking a massive 5 minute risk in order to reap their rewards with no local and people like Hard Knocks trying to find them and kill them. Comparatively the risk is almost non-existent for an IS Boxer running incursions or any plain old ratting carrier who is semi paying attention. This patch could easily double, possibly even triple the risk they take for no additional reward. Consequently it may no longer be reasonable risk for them to continue with the status quo thus providing less content to entities who primarily hunt as an occupation such as Hard Knocks and others.
That being said, many of these wormholes are owned and run by members of larger entities because the ISK making opportunities in larger corps are scarce as you are forced to share profits with increasingly more mouths on less substance. I am not saying they shouldn't have any risk, but spawning capitals 20k off a wormhole is not the way to do it. Mostly because it makes rolling wormholes harder, and near impossible for smaller entities but also limits our ability to engage k-space entities without knowing those capitals will die.
This change must be removed in my opinion. Find me another way to increase risk, and I'll gladly swap it for the ability to not spawn 20km off a wormhole in a 7B dread. |
Michael Lafleur
Quebec's Underdog League Quebec United Legions
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:02:00 -
[83] - Quote
I can see the point that CCP want to introduce here, they want to reduce, the number of person that close any WH that open on them to stay safe, while not warping they own static
i think this is the purpose of it
YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG ...
like all the post above, i say, this bring to much of a side effect, and it prevent the one chassing these hiding person from being found. Instead of that, make signature spawn quicker after a static WH is closed , its going to help chain collapse to find safely hidden person doing anomaly ... |
chris elliot
Yoyodyne corporation Shadow Cartel
382
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:03:00 -
[84] - Quote
Quickly crashing a hole has always been an avenue of escape for smaller groups, and yes farmers. This change pretty much ensures that if a small group gets unlucky and hits a large group, that they are more likely to log off and go do something else than deal with this kind of bullsht mechanic.
You want people to interact, not go, "fk dat noise, time to watch Netflix".
Overall this is a perfect example of a bad idea. It only makes big groups stronger and more bored and raises the bar of entry even further for new people. |
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
127
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:04:00 -
[85] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. a lot of the arguments against this change appear to stem from a premise that wormholers are entitled to control every aspect of the wormhole in which they live, rather than wormholes being a place where you deal with uncertainty and must constantly adapt that doesn't seem like a good argument to me
The premise that the opposition starts with is that we would like to be able to generate content for ourselves.
It is what the entire wormhole community, such that it is, is based on. Adaption has nothing to do with this change, it will simply result in less structured PvP, and more one off random cap ganks. It's for that reason it is a poor change. |
Joktan
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:06:00 -
[86] - Quote
Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights.
This is the core of it. W-space can be so quiet already, taking away or dramatically decreasing the ability to search for new content is a big mistake.
I also feel you'll see far fewer caps committed to fights, and you'll never want to fight in someone's home again.
All those other changes btw, so far, diggin' 'em. |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
105
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:07:00 -
[87] - Quote
I really like the concept, as it will make closing off a WH more difficult in general while still allowing scouting the way it is.
For invaders, it will also disrupt their ranges,, so will give a benefit to defenders.
Overall, another very positive changes to WH!! "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
127
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:08:00 -
[88] - Quote
I do want to make a post early on in this thread, that the idea of shaking up combat in wormholes is great. This just isn't the answer. I would like to see a different change be implemented than roll back this completely. |
Luscius Uta
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:08:00 -
[89] - Quote
Just increase the distance at which you land a bit (so that you won't be within jump range 90% of the time like you are now), but don't make it dependant of ship's mass, velocity or any other parameter. Highsec is for casuals. |
Lux Libertine
Prosperity Fighters CZECH Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:08:00 -
[90] - Quote
Hi,
seriously do you want to actually kill small corp operations in lower class WHs? As you calling rage rolling WHs actually helps us to create content for ourselves in terms of farmin the site in relatively peaceful mind when you dont have to watch 4different WHs if somebody dont want to kill you. In lower class WHs there also ppl that actually living in a groups of few ppl trying to close wandering null WHs so they can farm in peace. As others say, some groups live by closing theirs wh-wh statics and farming the wh on other site and then moving on to new one... This would put most of them to letargy of waiting to be there some save exit systems to actually close them or sitting twice as long waiting and slowboating ships back to jump range of WH.
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Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:08:00 -
[91] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. a lot of the arguments against this change appear to stem from a premise that wormholers are entitled to control every aspect of the wormhole in which they live, rather than wormholes being a place where you deal with uncertainty and must constantly adapt that doesn't seem like a good argument to me The dynamic quality of wormholes creates an environment where you can go several days without having anything to shoot. This being a game where the primary goal is to shoot things, some amount of control needs to be there. We're not suggesting we get a menu where we can select which hole we roll into next, and we're not asking for any advantage we haven't already had. We're just asking that the current mechanic not be made worse. that argument is obsoleted by "We will be significantly increasing the spawn rate of all the existing wormholes that originate in W-space"
I don't agree. I think it just means I'll be running into empty ships in POS's more often. |
Adarnof
Free Trade Monopoly You Are Being Monitored
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:09:00 -
[92] - Quote
To reiterate my concerns from the other thread,
Due to the nature of w-space, the majority of your content should be coming from the static. An integral part of this content discovery is the ability to roll the static connection on demand and look for something else. The proposed change greatly reduces our ability to do so.
For weeks now my group has starved with a lack of home content. Few incomings and no anomalies mean we've been stuck with content in our static to keep members interested. We've rolled that thing probably 20 times daily now looking for entertainment, and we've been finding it. Sometimes we want to farm, sometimes we want to pew, sometimes we just need to make a run to Jita.
By both greatly increasing the risk associated with doing so and making the process much slower, you've come into direct conflict with your goals of providing players with content. On our off-hours I'm absolutely certain members won't be rolling our static because there's no backup if it hits the fan.
This change only promotes POSing up or merging into a larger group. The whole appeal of w-space has been that smaller groups can have a space of their own; I fear this change discourages these small groups from attempting to do so.
Consider a scenario such as the one that unfolded last week. We were rolled into by a 400-man corp. Being significantly smaller than that, we were stuck with three options: get our faces stomped in by a blobfest, log off and do something else, or combat roll the connection and find other content more suited to us. Can you guess which one we chose? Yeah, we rolled it and went back to stuff we could manage. Now imagine that scenario with your proposed changes. We send the rollers in, and they get absolutely murdered by the other group who catches them 20k off the hole. Which do you suppose provides more "content" in wormholes? Them eating a cap and making us log off, or us rolling them away and staying on to do stuff?
While this change is certainly a shake-up to wormhole space, I fear it will not have the intended effect. If you don't believe me, just watch your pretty activity graphs after this goes live and you'll see. |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:09:00 -
[93] - Quote
I foresee Null sec interceptor gangs roaming WH space. |
crazy0146
The Federation of assorted candy
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:11:00 -
[94] - Quote
This is a Bad idea as show by many good posts above.
Two points i'd like to make about why it's a bad change, with relation to C5/6 whs:
1. When a smaller entity and larger entity clash the one way a smaller entity had of evening the odds was to bring a triage carrier, after this change i don't see this happening as bringing a cap is basically suicide for it. So smaller groups will have less chances to fight larger ones and less content for members leads to people leaving the corp, Thus it's either grow bigger or leave, which leads to bigger corps/alliances but less of them.
2. Taking the fight to a hostile home system gives the defender a HUGE advantage as the attacker has to worry about whether their caps will be in refit range, if they'll be able to extract, etc. This change adds more to the downsides of fighting in a home system for the attacker (This is based on the assumption that both parties are aware of each other).
I would rather see a change where attackers have less of a disadvantage in attacking a home system as i remember many fights where we/they wouldn't jump in because of the massive defending advantage.
If you are still set on the idea of implementing this then perhaps add in wh stabilizers (as a module or deployable) that reduce the range which ships spawn from after jumping through.
Also as a final point: Add this behavior to cynos/ covert cynos, because it's not like they need to jump to a specific point.
Now that i think about it, it's an instant rr sentry carrier n |
Longinius Spear
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
284
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:12:00 -
[95] - Quote
If your intention is to slow down the rage rolling process. You have succeeded.
If your intention was to bring meaningful value to the current meta game, you have failed.
I'm indifferent honestly, the other changes to w-space are so awesome, I'll take this change in stride.
Read more of my ramblings on my blog www.invadingyourhole.blogspot.com |
Saraki Ishikela
Deep Space Adventure Time
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:15:00 -
[96] - Quote
Shouldn't the real problem here be that groups of players have to "rage roll" wormholes in the first place to look for targets? It seems like CCP is trying to force player interaction on a process that most people use to try and facilitate player interaction. The problem to me seems to be that ragerolling is necessary, not that players have found the optimimum way of doing it.
Why not create a weapon system, bomb, mobile structure etc that will instead collapse the worm hole after a set amount of time? It can go a number of ways, players either shoot at the wormhole with a specialized weapon system to collapse it, so more players equals faster collapse, you set a mobile structure and after x amount of time the wormhole collapse around it, have it be a like a graviton mass accelerator and causes gravity spike that collapses the hole or what not.
The trick is whenever this process is initiated on one side, alert the other side it's going on. This will generate an opportunity for another group to try and disrupt and engage.
I just came up with this in 2 seconds, i'm sure it can be much more refined, but it seems silly to treat a symptom when the problem is with ragerolling itself. One newbies quest to ExploreEVE: Youtube:www.youtube.com/exploreeve- Blogspot:http://exploreeve.blogspot.com Twitter:www.twitter.com/exploreeve - Facebook:www.facebook.com/exploreeve |
Xenn Marc
Comunidad Hispania
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:17:00 -
[97] - Quote
Aside from the impacts in rage rolling due to landing distance from WHs, I like the rest of ideas, C4 with 2 statics, balancing effects and more random statics (including this new low mass idea) - However, together with my dislike towards the distance you appear from the WH I feel that all the proposals, if all go live there is too much change to take at once into a way of live that's not considered 'broken'.
WH needs more ppl, living, passing, hunting and getting lost - and bringing some chaos via more random WH or statics I think is the right way to go - but making it difficult to rage-roll or for small corps to jump a hole and find their fleet miles apart isn't the way - there has to be something we can control - or less people will adventure inside the hole. |
Janeway84
Its a good day to die
91
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:17:00 -
[98] - Quote
Worst change ever but its gonna shake up wh meta down to its core. Not sure i like it from the perspective of small gang / solo player.
Its gonna turn a boring task into even more boring and make me spend more time with boring. maybe can reduce some of the maximum ranges a little? |
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
52
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:17:00 -
[99] - Quote
The scientist in me doesn't like this idea. Wormholes are supposed to be connections between two points that ignore all the distance between. By that metric, I'd much rather have all ships spawn at 0 on the hole when jumping through. Decloak distance for EVERYONE, and more plausible science. |
ForgedMind
Astrum Fidelis Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:18:00 -
[100] - Quote
Again CCP you have chosen to harm solo pilots and small corps due to complaints from your larger bread winners.
CCP your hypocrisy knows no bounds. When you devs want to log on just to relax and play eve you have 2 perfectly isolated systems, and an entire galactic spiral to play in privately. Yes. Some pilots have figured out to create the next best thing in wh space. And for this reason these changes are being applied.
Some of us do not care about the politics of eve. We want to log into a game. Casually shoot some red crosses. Stare at some awesome looking graphics, all while shooting the breeze with our corp mates. This is because we are decent people. Perhaps you are not familiar with the concept of decent?
If any decent people are still reading this I encourage you to either play this game with no personal investment or, unsub as your life will be richer without this broken thing in it. |
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Kivena
EVE University Ivy League
45
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:21:00 -
[101] - Quote
C2 occupant here. We have a small group of E-UNI students & older members, occasionally we roll holes (usually using battleships & HICs, sometimes with an Orca) with 3 or fewer people, but normally a few more.
I don't think this will make a big change to the way we close holes. Sure, it'll take a bit longer to burn back to the hole on the far side, and therefore carry a bit more risk, but with propulsion modules and other pilots available for support that's really no problem. 2-9km to jump distance - within bubble range - seems pretty reasonable to me.
What this change will do is help us gank people travelling through wormholes - making w-space more dangerous. With some distance to make back it provides ample opportunity for webs and tackle to slow them and kill them.
If I read this correctly it also means you will never spawn within 2km of a wormhole - so you can always immediately cloak on the far side. In that respect it could make travelling a little safer.
I can't really speak about capitals spawn distance since our holes can't carry them. Director of Education EVE University
Follow me on Twitter: @eveKivena
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Verran Skarne
4 Marketeers
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:22:00 -
[102] - Quote
We routinely roll our static looking for content (both PvE and PvP) to do. This change is definitely going to slow us down in that regard as well, and that's bad. As others have pointed out, there's a maximum to the number of people you can have in a w-space system simply because of available content.
I don't mind the PvP effects of this change - players will adapt. We'll use battleships instead of Orcas, we'll change tactics and doctrines to protect our ships better during the burn back to the hole, and so on. It's the knock-on effect of the change where it takes longer and becomes riskier to roll a hole or collapse a chain though that's the problem. |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:23:00 -
[103] - Quote
Rroff wrote:xpaulx wrote:Time to shoot the monument There is a monument in wormhole space?
It-¦s the shattered planet in that one C3, pretty sure someone has the j-sig.
Not sure about the change for capitals, but I definitly do not like them for the small ships. Very slim chance your scanner will be able to cloak even if he is in a T3. Also faction/officer smartbomb or, god forbid, red giant hole will kill your covertops 100% of the time. Way too strong for the hometeam. |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:23:00 -
[104] - Quote
What if they kept the distance changes, but changed the spawn mechanics when you land, such that you appeared somewhere in a 60 degree cone that was the opposite polar direction you had when you entered the wormhole? Even better, maybe you should have an intial velocity that you had when you started the jump?
Make it so if you jump through at < 20% of your ship's maximum unboosted speed, you land cloaked and unmoving.
If you jump through in excess of 20% of your ship's maximum unboosted speed, you land with a ~5s cloak with an initial velocity in the same direction you were previously heading, somewhere in the cone described above.
That'd allow fleets to stay together, and allow for some really cool mechanics for fleet positioning through a wh. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
4715
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:23:00 -
[105] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:There are many good arguments why this change is good and why this change is bad. I do like the change however as someone pointed out previously it will be harder for higher class people to bring in carriers + dreads for a fight as they will not be able to refit. If there would be a possibility for all the ships to spawn in same random direction for their designated ranges and dread + carrier ranges would be the same I would be happy. Plus make it so that if you jump into kspace you are not dragged away from the wh. A lot of time wspace people will fight on the wormhole with null sec blob and the reason we can do that is that we can just jump back to wh. No matter how the change ends up being in the end it will shake up wspace quite a bit. super graphic: http://i.imgur.com/jYofIa7.png
Perhaps you should have considered both sides when you proposed it. From https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4765901#post4765901:
Chitsa Jason wrote: 18. Make it so that the higher of the ship mass the further it spawns from the wormhole by jumping through. Would increase the ability to catch rolling ships, would make rage rolling slower.
CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
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Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
127
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:23:00 -
[106] - Quote
Saraki Ishikela wrote:Shouldn't the real problem here be that groups of players have to "rage roll" wormholes in the first place to look for targets? It seems like CCP is trying to force player interaction on a process that most people use to try and facilitate player interaction. The problem to me seems to be that ragerolling is necessary, not that players have found the optimimum way of doing it.
Why not create a weapon system, bomb, mobile structure etc that will instead collapse the worm hole after a set amount of time? It can go a number of ways, players either shoot at the wormhole with a specialized weapon system to collapse it, so more players equals faster collapse, you set a mobile structure and after x amount of time the wormhole collapse around it, have it be a like a graviton mass accelerator and causes gravity spike that collapses the hole or what not.
The trick is whenever this process is initiated on one side, alert the other side it's going on. This will generate an opportunity for another group to try and disrupt and engage.
I just came up with this in 2 seconds, i'm sure it can be much more refined, but it seems silly to treat a symptom when the problem is with ragerolling itself.
This idea is amazing. In fact, let's just give the wormholes hitpoints, you don't need to worry about making a new type of weapon. Should probably make sure it has millions of hitpoints to make it difficult enough.
You know, I changed my mind. I like the anchoring of structures instead. Let's call it a WCU. A Wormhole Claim Unit. Once you anchor it you collapse the wormhole you now own. |
Cay Deschain
Stryker Industries
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:23:00 -
[107] - Quote
If CCP really wants to do make this change (and I still don't see a reason for it), why not just invert the distances (i.e. make larger masses spawn closer and smaller masses spawn farther out)? This solves the cap/orca ragerolling problem. Yes, it will keep being able to keep scouts out harder and break up T3s all landing at the same distance, but these are ships that can burn back quickly. |
blackish person
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:25:00 -
[108] - Quote
Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!
I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.
The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):
1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.
The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.
2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.
Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.
Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.
EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.
3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."
Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.
What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( |
ShadowfireWraith
Astral Inferno
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:25:00 -
[109] - Quote
I like all of the ideas of this patch EXCEPT the spawn distance from the wormhole. You guys are saying that you want all sides of eve open to player interaction, but many groups are unable to leave, unable to operate, or unable to do well....anything if they cannot close that incoming wormhole. There already is a fight in order to close a wormhole, if the attacker wants to keep it from closing all it takes is a HIC on the other side to trap people that land on the hole or keep people from landing at 0 on the hole, and then the enemy fleet can kill the entire wormhole closing force. Additionally, small groups need a way to shield themselves from outside interaction. Against small ship wormholes, you know they cannot bring in t3's which means you will gladly fight the incoming force. It will be fun pvp and very interesting. When the enemy comes from a normal wormhole though, you will see small groups shutting down if they cannot roll a hole without support. Instead of needing to pitch ships from a wormhole, the larger groups should know that they simply need to do what? Risk their own ass by going INTO the target wormhole instead of sitting safe and sound on their side of it waiting for hole rollers to come. This is frequently seen already, stop trying to add more 'content' in a way that will only ruin things for small groups. Small groups need to be able to scout the wormhole, safely roll it, and continue on with THEIR content, instead of just being smaller fish in everyone else's content. Support fleets in wormholes are not common to be had, you do not frequently see 20+ person fleets just hanging around with nothing to do or supporting wormhole rolls, because then it would get too crowded during peak times with nobody having any content to do besides kill other players. Just drop the mass pitching you far from a wormhole and we have the best wormhole patch we've ever seen, and buff the loot in c2 wormholes to not put them so far from C3 and C3+ wormholes and we will love you. The small ship wormhole is enough, it levels the field between large groups and small groups and causes more fights, which we want to see, instead of more turtling whether it be the enemy OR ourselves hiding in fright due to not being able to close our wormhole off. The larger groups need to watch the hole if they want to keep it alive, not just magically expect the fear of their numbers will let them be lazy and not have to force the other group not to roll the wormhole. PVP groups can always roll a wormhole to get more content, this change means that small groups CANNOT roll a wormhole to even have the slightest hope of even a little pitiful bit of something to do besides quit and come back later hoping the larger group rolled the wh for them. Equalize the field, not balance it further only towards large groups. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
627
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:26:00 -
[110] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away). Not empty quoting because I still think this captures the most salient points/issues with this proposal.
You will be stranding 3+b ISK ships well outside of their operational envelope (possibly outside of rep/capxfer range and definitely outside of refit range). This will result in fewer caps being used in wh PvP and that is bad in my opinion. People won't suicide multiple billions of isk 'just cuz'. We aren't stupid and/or moongoo+renter srp rich.
I'm right behind you |
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Kim Briggs
Aurora Armaments The Bastion
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:26:00 -
[111] - Quote
I realy like the change, that higher mass ships spawn further away from the wh.
In the current state it is nearly impossible to get a fight with wh residence, if they are active and don't want to fight. I face this situation on a nearly daily base, that i scan a wh, scout it, form a fleet, suddenly caps appear on my side and 5 sec later the wh is gone. That is a risk free method to avoid any unwanted contact, because the K162 WH pops up, directly after i initiate the warp in my scanning ship.
Good change CCP! |
Shock 2u
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:30:00 -
[112] - Quote
I do not support these changes.
I have lived in WH space since joining EvE and it is by far the best content in this game. These changes will not encourage more PvP they will just allow the large WH corps to keep their connections open longer meaning the smaller corps will turtle and log. Eventually they will move out of WH space and only the large groups will remain.
Some of these changes will ruin W space. We already get random WH opening and to increase that "significantly" and make some of them unable to be closed is insane.
I can only guess CCP wants people out of WH space to stop isk farming to plex. I pay for he game so that's not such a big deal for me but I like to have isk for shinny ships.
We will have to make a decision on if this is what WH space should be, my guess is the Null Sec peeps in CCP want all space to be Null like, why not add a local while you are at it?
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ShadowfireWraith
Astral Inferno
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:30:00 -
[113] - Quote
blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
This post is the most perfect summation of what we are trying to say, said by a very well respected and large group of wormholes with lots of experience. Please please please for the love of god listen! |
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:31:00 -
[114] - Quote
Shock 2u wrote:
I can only guess CCP wants people out of WH space to stop isk farming to plex. I pay for he game so that's not such a big deal for me but I like to have isk for shinny ships.
CCP still gets paid when people plex. The plex has to be bought by someone. This is never a valid accusation. |
Joran Jackson
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:36:00 -
[115] - Quote
Kim Briggs wrote:I realy like the change, that higher mass ships spawn further away from the wh.
In the current state it is nearly impossible to get a fight with wh residence, if they are active and don't want to fight. I face this situation on a nearly daily base, that i scan a wh, scout it, form a fleet, suddenly caps appear on my side and 5 sec later the wh is gone. That is a risk free method to avoid any unwanted contact and should be gone
Good change CCP!
Yeah, good point. You know, I hate people avoiding unwanted contact, too. Completely risk free.
I'll tell you what, let's keep this and add in these things called wormhole shipyards. You could basically put yourself inside them whenever you felt like. It would make it easy for people to keep their possessions, but most importantly it would allow people to reship for PvP. And then you could combine it with something like an alert that went off whenever you were in danger. That way whenever someone came by, you could always ship up and bring the fight!!
Dear CCP...please institute some type of intelligence verification for this forum. |
Shock 2u
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:37:00 -
[116] - Quote
Reve Uhad wrote:Shock 2u wrote:
I can only guess CCP wants people out of WH space to stop isk farming to plex. I pay for he game so that's not such a big deal for me but I like to have isk for shinny ships.
CCP still gets paid when people plex. The plex has to be bought by someone. This is never a valid accusation.
You assume people will continue to play if they can not farm for isk. You are wrong. |
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:39:00 -
[117] - Quote
Shock 2u wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Shock 2u wrote:
I can only guess CCP wants people out of WH space to stop isk farming to plex. I pay for he game so that's not such a big deal for me but I like to have isk for shinny ships.
CCP still gets paid when people plex. The plex has to be bought by someone. This is never a valid accusation. You assume people will continue to play if they can not farm for isk. You are wrong.
I'm definitely not suggesting that. I'm just saying that the idea that CCP hates people who plex [because it means they don't get paid] is invalid. |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
470
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:41:00 -
[118] - Quote
I would suggest making the distances even shorter, like 6-8km for caps. That way it will be a slowboatable/bumpable distance that will not slow us down as much as bouncing when rolling, but at the same time if someone decloaks and webs you on grid you are screwed anyway. W-Space Realtor |
Bob Artis
Into the Ether RAZOR Alliance
69
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:42:00 -
[119] - Quote
I said it before and I'll say it again. The only way this feature will ever work is if you reverse the direction. Heavier ships spawn close while lighter ships spawn further away.
I understand that it might be a little too safe to use Capital ships to roll right now, but pushing it so far in the other direction will just stop people from using them for anything other then home defense. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
758
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:43:00 -
[120] - Quote
Reve Uhad wrote: I'm definitely not suggesting that. I'm just saying that the idea that CCP hates people who plex [because it means they don't get paid] is invalid.
There are still people in TYOOL 2014 who believe that an account being activated by PLEX somehow denies them income?
Hint: people who maintain their accounts using PLEX are actually causing CCP to profit MORE than someone who pays monthly; PLEX cost $20, and a monthly subscription costs $15/mo. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:44:00 -
[121] - Quote
Quincy Thibaud wrote:Nox Arnoux wrote:A key element of overcoming someone else's home system advantage is to be able to reliably refit the capitals we commit (i.e. dreads next to carriers). When capitals have the potential of spawning >30 km from each other, that advantage is nullified. To add insult to injury, the home defenders can still decide where their capitals land, while the attackers are at the mercy of the RNG Gods.
You push this change through, and no one will commit capitals into someone else's system ever again. The odds are already stacked heavily in favour of home defenders, why make it even more lopsided? The defender in a wormhole should have all of the advantages as stated above. This makes attacking even more risky and gives the defender even more advantages. It will lead to more LOL-RNG kills of people trying to roll holes, but it's not going to generate large scale fights. Rolling holes for the most part in C6/C5 space is about finding fights and possibly ganks. You are again making this harder to do. Would Rooks And Kings have bothered trying to roll for AHARM in Clarion Call 3 if it was going to take them 10 times as long? Lets say there was no risk, just the wasted time in rolling holes in motoring back to the hole is a red flag. Right now null sec is stuck in stagnation because epic structure grinding is totally boring. Now you want to throw a similar mechanic in wormhole space - wasting more and more game time. How about for a change CCP carefully think this change through? CCP, your thinking is flawed. If the idea is to induce more risk to a certain behavior you will get what Eve players will always do, make that risk/reward calculation. The result of that calculation will precipitate a decision that it is less worth the risk. The other changes on cursory review seem fine, this one is flawed.
This a thousand times THIS....
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Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:46:00 -
[122] - Quote
This change is terrible. The extra effort to rage-roll will reduce connectivity, and the drastically increased dangers committing caps will mean nobody will bother.
Just drop the change already, nobody wants it. |
Kadm
Catfish Gumbo Try Rerolling
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:47:00 -
[123] - Quote
So let me ask: Is it really a bad thing if people stop using capitals to roll wormholes? How is forcing people to use battleships a big negative? Maybe you can't field ten players or ten battleships? Well, use five. You may get caught while waiting for the second pass, but a few minutes is acceptable. You should not be able to instantly and safely roll holes with them. It doesn't matter why you're rolling. You could be NOHO wanting a cap fight, or you could be a group of VOC alts running a three man expo system. Neither group should get risk free rolling. If you can't live without risk free rolling, you don't belong in WH space. |
Endo Riftbreaker
Antioch Brotherhood
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:48:00 -
[124] - Quote
As the operator of a small WH corp, I have to say I like all the changes except this one. If you're going to add significantly more wandering holes, and non-closable frigate holes, we need to have some way to control our risk.
I have no issue putting assets at stake in PvE and PvP as long as it's a reasonable risk/reward profile. With the addition of so many new avenues of attack, and the reduction in capabilities to respond to that risk, you've significantly shifted the risk profile of lower class wormholes (typically inhabited by lower capability corps/solo players) but not done anything on the reward side.
Please note that I'm not advocating for a buff in loot buy orders or anything, just noting something that by its very nature will lead to more risk averse behavior, which doesn't seem like the intended consequence of these changes.
I would also like to add strong support for a clone swapping POS module - I'd love to get down and dirty rolling around in a T1 frigate with newbros and taking the high sec express back home, but not with a fancy pod. |
Dark Armata
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
126
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:50:00 -
[125] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:In this change's current form active modules do not affect the distance that you will land from the wormhole. This is due to technical issues surrounding the mass calculations for your ship, which we are planning to fix, but may not make it into the Hyperion release.
Just wanted to make this known for the sake of full disclosure. Posting this here as well for visibility.
So despite pages of replies across 2 threads.
This comment only proves you are not listening at all to the player feedback you requested as you are still spending more development time on this.
Honestly, as someone said earlier;
Pull this one part of Hyperion and wormholers will hail this the best update ever.
Some amazing stuff in the dev blog, please don't ruin it. Please. W-Space WAS Best Space*
*Until CCP decided W-Space should be the next null.
|
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
108
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:50:00 -
[126] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:Reve Uhad wrote:Speaking as a pilot in a small/med wormhole corp, the spawn distance change will be a detriment to our ability to generate content in an already highly risk-averse area of space. I do not support this change.
RNG ganks != goodfights. a lot of the arguments against this change appear to stem from a premise that wormholers are entitled to control every aspect of the wormhole in which they live, rather than wormholes being a place where you deal with uncertainty and must constantly adapt that doesn't seem like a good argument to me
You mean like being able to control nullsec systems by preventing cynos and bubbling gates out to 100km? |
na'Vi Ronuken
Louis Nothing And Nobody
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:52:00 -
[127] - Quote
hm.. funny -- i dont see anything about allowing clone swaps in wormholes -- did that get missed? why do we have this garbage change instead? Can we trade in this proposed change for the clone pods in POS? |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory Fidelas Constans
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:52:00 -
[128] - Quote
CCP.... What really is this trying to solve?
Are you trying to solve ragerolling? Then solve it in a way that makes sense. Make it harder for people that just pop holes quickly. Distance away from hole will not help that.
If you are trying to solve something else does it need large ships to be farther away? Then restate why you are doing so all these people stop bitching about possibly loosing a large ship.
And I wouldn't think about switching the numbers around because if smaller ships are farther away, then again... what are you trying to solve? You are just making me risk a smaller ship.
Remember when people jump into a WH they have NO protection from whoever is in that WH space. We have no station, no other gates, nothing else to get away from those people that might be camping. At least in HS, LS, Null you have options minus being at a dead end system. |
Admiral Douros
aWc Heavy Industries GoonSwarm
50
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:52:00 -
[129] - Quote
As a wormhole resident, I don't like this idea at all. Rolling our c5 static is already a nail-biting process when we know that someone is active on the other side. Forcing a carrier to slowboat potentially 16km means that it's sitting there basically defenseless until it gets back, since we've already reduced the hole mass by more than half (assuming we jump a few battleships through with it). You're also welcoming hostiles to close the hole before you can make it back through by jumping their own battleships through and back. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
758
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:54:00 -
[130] - Quote
This change is well-appreciated. It adds risk for attacking, as caps and other slow moving assets no longer have a get out of jail free card by spawning within range of the wormhole they just jumped through. It also slows down the rapacity at which established parties can cycle their wormholes and limits their ability to consume resources far afield of what they are able to control, allowing for more parties to enter wormhole space in general. All in all, a good change for the health of the game. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
Kadm
Catfish Gumbo Try Rerolling
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:55:00 -
[131] - Quote
Admiral Douros wrote:As a wormhole resident, I don't like this idea at all. Rolling our c5 static is already a nail-biting process when we know that someone is active on the other side. Forcing a carrier to slowboat potentially 16km means that it's sitting there basically defenseless until it gets back, since we've already reduced the hole mass by more than half (assuming we jump a few battleships through with it). You're also welcoming hostiles to close the hole before you can make it back through by jumping their own battleships through and back.
Your solution is to use battleships instead, and get through and back quicker? I dunno. Seems pretty simple. |
Fireflynine
Wormhole Exploration And Production
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:55:00 -
[132] - Quote
Mass-Based Spawn Distance after Wormhole Jumps---- rejected by Fireflythegreat |
Dark Armata
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
126
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:55:00 -
[133] - Quote
Kadm wrote:So let me ask: Is it really a bad thing if people stop using capitals to roll wormholes? How is forcing people to use battleships a big negative? Maybe you can't field ten players or ten battleships? Well, use five. You may get caught while waiting for the second pass, but a few minutes is acceptable. You should not be able to instantly and safely roll holes with them. It doesn't matter why you're rolling. You could be NOHO wanting a cap fight, or you could be a group of VOC alts running a three man expo system. Neither group should get risk free rolling. If you can't live without risk free rolling, you don't belong in WH space.
Because this means rage rolling will take SOO much longer. If you can't field the requisite number of battleships.
Also means all those battleship pilots will have to reship if something is found in the next wormhole. W-Space WAS Best Space*
*Until CCP decided W-Space should be the next null.
|
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:56:00 -
[134] - Quote
Well there you have it CCP. 99% of people who care enough about this change to post here all agree that this change is not in the best interests of its dwellers or in the future of wormholes. I'm pretty sure you got that idea from previous threads about this subject also.
I love all the other changes being proposed.
However this one needs to be scratched.
Sadly I suspect that even with all the numerous complaints and criticism about this change, CCP will do what it wants instead of listening to the people who live there. |
|
CCP Lebowski
C C P C C P Alliance
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 16:58:00 -
[135] - Quote
Dark Armata wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:In this change's current form active modules do not affect the distance that you will land from the wormhole. This is due to technical issues surrounding the mass calculations for your ship, which we are planning to fix, but may not make it into the Hyperion release.
Just wanted to make this known for the sake of full disclosure. Posting this here as well for visibility. So despite pages of replies across 2 threads. This comment only proves you are not listening at all to the player feedback you requested as you are still spending more development time on this. Honestly, as someone said earlier; Pull this one part of Hyperion and wormholers will hail this the best update ever. Some amazing stuff in the dev blog, please don't ruin it. Please. As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release. CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/ccp_lebowski |
|
Kadm
Catfish Gumbo Try Rerolling
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:00:00 -
[136] - Quote
Dark Armata wrote:Kadm wrote:So let me ask: Is it really a bad thing if people stop using capitals to roll wormholes? How is forcing people to use battleships a big negative? Maybe you can't field ten players or ten battleships? Well, use five. You may get caught while waiting for the second pass, but a few minutes is acceptable. You should not be able to instantly and safely roll holes with them. It doesn't matter why you're rolling. You could be NOHO wanting a cap fight, or you could be a group of VOC alts running a three man expo system. Neither group should get risk free rolling. If you can't live without risk free rolling, you don't belong in WH space. Because this means rage rolling will take SOO much longer. If you can't field the requisite number of battleships. Also means all those battleship pilots will have to reship if something is found in the next wormhole.
If you can't field 10 battleships, it will infact take longer. Infact, if you can only field 5 battleships, it may take an entire polarization cycle! And yes, those people will need to re-ship (or, you know, fight in battleships).
What you don't seem to understand is that increasing the time and difficulty of ragerolling appears to be CCP's goal. Much like people are crying for nerfs to the ability to move through known space, CCP seems to believe that being able to cycle your static 50+ times in an evening may be excessive. |
Connall Tara
Conquering Darkness
126
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:00:00 -
[137] - Quote
First off, the majority of changes for hyperion? AWESOME
this change? I have some significant concerns.
on face value I can see the intention behind this change. the increase of risk related to activities is always to be encourages in my mind and that CCP is persuing this concept is most gratifying.
however there are issues here I feel i need to bring up into how this change could potentially seriously affect the nonlinear strategies which are part of what gives wormhole space it's charm.
firstly: wormhole space represents a unique area in eve where thanks to existing wormhole mechanics it's possible for smaller entities to successfully combat and defend against larger entities. a lot of this is due to the nature of wormholes and their mass and time mechanics. this additional "victory condition" creates a scenario where gurilla tactics are entirely viable and small well equipped strikes can engage a numerically superior force and thanks to the "choke-point" of a wormhole engineer a situation where they can emerge victorious. one of the reasons for this situation is that wormholes almost create a "point buy" mechanism within eve. where a smaller number of players can make use of larger ships (in this case battleships and capitals) in order to overcome the lack of individual player numbers. conversely, larger groups have to decide if they want to deploy the larger, more powerful ships, or leverage their numerical superiority with a bigger group of smaller vessels.
now the big issue I worry about here is that this change would punish the players who choose to deploy the smaller force. while the ships are individually more powerful (and as a result more expensive) they suffer from the tactical limitations of having less players behind each ship. capitals for example are very vulnerable to a dedicated T3 force within wormhole space and due to mass restrictions and mass amounts will often only be lightly escorted within the target wormhole for fear of being counter jumped and trapped within. is this a risk? most certainly and it's one that many wormhole corporations ALREADY take extremely seriously.
so how do i see this change as potentially negative? primarily my worry is that this change heavily favors the force which can deploy more pilots. larger entities can field significantly more "expendable" hulls for the task (plated battleships would be the obvious option) and would, no doubt, overcome this change by the simple application of more pilots to negate the wormhole polarization mechanic.
much in the same way that null-sec suffers from disproportionately large groups and alliances I would fear that this change would force serious wormhole entities to follow the same methodology lest they find them selves at a significant disadvantage. quite simply larger groups will negate this change through the application of numbers leaving only the smaller entities to actually be affected.
secondly: I am also somewhat concerned in regards to how this change somewhat conflicts with the overall theme of the rest of hyperion. most of the changes have quite clearly been designed in such a way to encourage movement between wormholes. the introductions of secondary statics for C4's being an excellent example. similarly the new frigate microholes are an excellent way to encourage people to move quickly and more often between spaces.
this change however, with the intention of slowing down "rage rolling" seems contradictory in my mind. on one hand the majority of changes encourage activity and connectivity within wormhole space. while this second change would necessitate players expending significantly more effort in creating new connections. slowing down exploration for the higher end wormhole entities without the numbers to reliably chain collapse (something I don't Believe larger groups won't have an issue with as previously mentioned).
more thoughts later on as the conversation develops :) Naomi Knight - "You must be CCP Rise alt , that would explain everything"
|
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:00:00 -
[138] - Quote
Kim Briggs wrote:I realy like the change, that higher mass ships spawn further away from the wh.
In the current state it is nearly impossible to get a fight with wh residence, if they are active and don't want to fight. I face this situation on a nearly daily base, that i scan a wh, scout it, form a fleet, suddenly caps appear on my side and 5 sec later the wh is gone. That is a risk free method to avoid any unwanted contact and should be gone
Good change CCP!
And you are under the impression that if it becomes too risky people will still do it? I sugest you put yourself in their shoes and think again. Players adapt in may different ways and becoming totally passive (possing up, logging in an empire alt and mining etc.) is one such way. Verry bad for the future of WH space. |
na'Vi Ronuken
Louis Nothing And Nobody
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:03:00 -
[139] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote: As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release.
Can you tell the dudes sitting in your building that this is a bad change and we don't want it. or better yet -- as him/her to start reading this thread to understand the public sentiment behind this. |
Arestris
Aurora Armaments The Bastion
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:03:00 -
[140] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Well there you have it CCP. 99% of people who care enough about this change to post here all agree that this change is not in the best interests of its dwellers or in the future of wormholes. I'm pretty sure you got that idea from previous threads about this subject also.
I love all the other changes being proposed.
However this one needs to be scratched.
Sadly I suspect that even with all the numerous complaints and criticism about this change, CCP will do what it wants instead of listening to the people who live there.
Your'e wrong! I think it's more like 99% of all people who read the devblog agree to the change und see absolutly no reason to post here. Such a reason have mostly the people who doesn't like the change. Thats the mainreason Topics like this looks like nearly everyone doesn't like the change. |
|
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:05:00 -
[141] - Quote
Arestris wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Well there you have it CCP. 99% of people who care enough about this change to post here all agree that this change is not in the best interests of its dwellers or in the future of wormholes. I'm pretty sure you got that idea from previous threads about this subject also.
I love all the other changes being proposed.
However this one needs to be scratched.
Sadly I suspect that even with all the numerous complaints and criticism about this change, CCP will do what it wants instead of listening to the people who live there. Your'e wrong! I think it's more like 99% of all people who read the devblog agree to the change und see absolutly no reason to post here. Such a reason have mostly the people who doesn't like the change. Thats the mainreason Topics like this looks like nearly everyone doesn't like the change. Nice spin. |
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:07:00 -
[142] - Quote
Aender Wiggin wrote:
And you are under the impression that if it becomes too risky people will still do it? I sugest you put yourself in their shoes and think again. Players adapt in may different ways and becoming totally passive (possing up, logging in an empire alt and mining etc.) is one such way. Verry bad for the future of WH space.
but it would make Wormholes just like Null sec, which is after all the eve endgame....
/sarcasm off/
|
Daniel Plain
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
2115
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:08:00 -
[143] - Quote
CCP Fozzie, you wrote in your post that you support emergent gameplay. well, rolling is emergent gameplay and is here to stay. therefore, i propose that making it harder and more annoying is not in your interest. i understand that you want to make shutting oneself in harder, but making the 'door' waste more time and effort is not a good way to do it.
i'm sure this has been proposed over and over already, but why don't we try going the opposite route: create a relatively cheap, quick and reliable way to close a wormhole (such as a deployable or a specialized drone etc.). you could control rage-rolling by progressively increasing the respawn time on statics and you could reduce the safety of 'locked in' people by favoring systems that have been closed off with a higher chance of incoming wandering connections.
"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF |
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:09:00 -
[144] - Quote
Arestris wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Well there you have it CCP. 99% of people who care enough about this change to post here all agree that this change is not in the best interests of its dwellers or in the future of wormholes. I'm pretty sure you got that idea from previous threads about this subject also.
I love all the other changes being proposed.
However this one needs to be scratched.
Sadly I suspect that even with all the numerous complaints and criticism about this change, CCP will do what it wants instead of listening to the people who live there. Your'e wrong! I think it's more like 99% of all people who read the devblog agree to the change und see absolutly no reason to post here. Such a reason have mostly the people who doesn't like the change. Thats the mainreason Topics like this looks like nearly everyone doesn't like the change.
jeez mate I want what your smoking :) |
|
CCP Lebowski
C C P C C P Alliance
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:11:00 -
[145] - Quote
na'Vi Ronuken wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote: As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release. Can you tell the dudes sitting in your building that this is a bad change and we don't want it. or better yet -- as him/her to start reading this thread to understand the public sentiment behind this. Don't worry, everything posted in this thread is being read by the relevant designers (I sit right next to Fozzie so can confirm this first hand!). CCP Lebowski | EVE Quality Assurance | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/ccp_lebowski |
|
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
270
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:11:00 -
[146] - Quote
Everything Traiori already said.
Furthermore:
We have had many excellent fights with other corps where one side gets a pretty sound beating and the survivors return to the POS to lick their wounds. One side or the other then generally rolls away to find more trouble. However, if neither side feels that they can safely roll away, and neither side feels confident in their ability to win the second round of the fight, you end up with both sides staring each other down but not wanting to engage.
It also introduces an option for a type of "fun denial" warfare that nobody is going to like. As the goons and other nullseccers will just camp people into stations, a gigantic group could simply leave open a wormhole because a smaller group doesn't have the means to crash it without losing AT LEAST one very expensive ship. The nullseccers themselves could easily do this. We periodically connect to staging systems and the like, and frequently have a little skirmish, but if we see the 200-man blob coming, we have to slam the door. There's just a limit to how many people we can have in a wormhole. If we can't slam the door, then what? We just have to sit around and wait for the hole to crash? That's not gameplay, or fun, or something that anyone in w-space is looking forward to.
It's not a good idea. I recognize that slamming the door to avoid PvP is an annoyance, but this solution introduces more problems and unfun gameplay than it fixes. |
Oreamnos Amric
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:11:00 -
[147] - Quote
Surely the way to increase the chance of conflict in w-space is to make it easier to roll a wormhole rather than harder. Yes this means farmers can roll away their own static but they have no control over other groups rage rolling a K162 in their direction. Assuming farming groups don't outnumber combat-ready groups then a greater churn of K162s means more possibility of conflict.
Unless CCPs actual, unstated, goal is to reduce rage-rolling for fights... |
Dama Arishe
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:12:00 -
[148] - Quote
I can get on board with most of the changes, but the mass-based spawn just isn't a good idea. This isn't the kind of attention wspace needs. It doesn't provide any new content and adds frustration to an already annoying process. Cue pos-spinning instead of ninja-rolling for small corps.
Also not a fan of the K162 change. I'd love to know what % of wormholes actually get jumped through (from the spawn system). Would that make this change make sense? I dunno. It's going to make kspace to wspace K162s a lot rarer. |
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:12:00 -
[149] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:na'Vi Ronuken wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote: As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release. Can you tell the dudes sitting in your building that this is a bad change and we don't want it. or better yet -- as him/her to start reading this thread to understand the public sentiment behind this. Don't worry, everything posted in this thread is being read by the relevant designers (I sit right next to Fozzie so can confirm this first hand!).
Is he sweating/swearing/pacing/facepalming?
Cause if so I demand a picture of this. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:13:00 -
[150] - Quote
I do not approve this wh breaking mechanics. |
|
Laurici
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
61
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:14:00 -
[151] - Quote
blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
^QFT
An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling.
For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
|
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:15:00 -
[152] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:CCP Fozzie, you wrote in your post that you support emergent gameplay. well, rolling is emergent gameplay and is here to stay. therefore, i propose that making it harder and more annoying is not in your interest. i understand that you want to make shutting oneself in harder, but making the 'door' waste more time and effort is not a good way to do it.
i'm sure this has been proposed over and over already, but why don't we try going the opposite route: create a relatively cheap, quick and reliable way to close a wormhole (such as a deployable or a specialized drone etc.). you could control rage-rolling by progressively increasing the respawn time on statics and you could reduce the safety of 'locked in' people by favoring systems that have been closed off with a higher chance of incoming wandering connections.
I would prefer a 'Mass Bomb' launched from a bomber, like a void bomb, the trick would be to balance it to make it useable and not abuseable. (best of luck)
|
Xaphanie Xoros
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:15:00 -
[153] - Quote
Laurici wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( ^QFT An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling. For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
This ^^ |
Adedaughtus
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:16:00 -
[154] - Quote
Laurici wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( ^QFT An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling. For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
This is probably the best idead ive read in this entire thread so far |
pewpewforU
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:17:00 -
[155] - Quote
Laurici wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( ^QFT An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling. For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
+1 for visibility |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:17:00 -
[156] - Quote
I have to agree with what was said earlier...
Scrap this part of the proposed changes and we will be hailing this as the best expansion ever! |
Helgur
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:18:00 -
[157] - Quote
Laurici wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( ^QFT An idea we just discussed was that if the jump mechanics stayed the same as now when jumping through the static side of the wormhole but operated like this when jumping from the K162 side; you would achieve the goals of stopping people having absolute control over the wormhole, whilst not preventing rage rolling. For reference to a question above about how often people commit multiple capitals to a wormhole fight; no holes barred run fleets doing this 2-3 times every week at a minimum; whether we find a fight is a different question, but being able to roll less holes in the same time will reduce the number of fights we would be able to fight.
Not emptyquoting |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
71
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:19:00 -
[158] - Quote
Daniel Plain wrote:CCP Fozzie, you wrote in your post that you support emergent gameplay. well, rolling is emergent gameplay and is here to stay. therefore, i propose that making it harder and more annoying is not in your interest. i understand that you want to make shutting oneself in harder, but making the 'door' waste more time and effort is not a good way to do it..
Rage rolling could also be look at as a player deterministic result of inadequate wormhole spawn rates and lack of w-space connectivity. You rage roll to find shallow content on your own terms because the content you are currently finding is not adequate.
EVE perhaps should be a place where deep chains exist through dynamic spawn mechanisms where organic encounters occur from exploration, not static rolling. If your static, increased inbound connections, and the holes connected to you offer a depth of connections, would that not be a better alternative and more engaging play for players than smashing ships through a wormhole repeatedly?
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
758
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:20:00 -
[159] - Quote
Some of you have cottoned onto the "emergent gameplay" angle. Emergent gameplay, while extremely cool, is also not sacrosanct. CCP is under no obligation to maintain emergent gameplay.
For examples of this, see the "Faction Five" Forex scheme -- while clearly emergent gameplay, it was also extremely harmful for the game and needed to be excised.
I dare suggest that intentionally exhausting wormholes to increase the amount of territory available for farming and raiding may fall into a similar category, that it is allowing wormhole space to support increasingly large, but increasingly fewer groups, raising the barrier of entry into w-space in the process. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:20:00 -
[160] - Quote
Let us not forget, the events of Clarion Call 3 most likely would not have occurred with this mechanic in place. |
|
Sjaandi HyShan
EVE University Ivy League
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:22:00 -
[161] - Quote
Why not change it from spawn distance to spawn speed, similar to station undocks? This would allow smart players to use webs+sensor boosters or the lack of them to control engagement range.
Make it so that the ships will naturally slow down (and be able to stop) to the ranges desired, while allowing coordinated players to use fitting choices to have the ability to adjust the range the ship actually reaches.
This allows the following gameplay:
- Webs and (remote) sensor boosters can be combined to allow small ships to slow big ones down, or big ships to lock each other and slow themselves down. This allows brawling/rep fleets to stay in range, at the cost in needing to fit webs/sensor boosters or field additional ships with these fitted.
- Sniper fleets can be more effectively countered by instead using the speed boost to close to a more suitable engagement range (use a MWD or afterburner as soon as spawned)
On a side note, I think that the suggestion people are giving of small ships should appear farther from the hole is bad because it makes Covert Ops ships invulnerable, as they will be spawned far enough away to immediately cloak and avoid bubbles. This combined with the new WH-WH connections would allow Covert Ops ships to effectively be immune to camps of any kind. |
Cedeves XVII
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:22:00 -
[162] - Quote
This change is going to have far ranging damages to wormholers. On one hand they talk about making it harder to completly close off your home, but then they make it harder for those searching for fights to find them by rage rolling, nullifying much of the decreased safety.
I am far more worried about the changes to use of Caps under threat. - Deploying even a single triage carrier will be a full commitle without the ability to evac the capital unless you win the fight. - No longer will it be possible to use carriers to refit other caps when attacking, however defenders, even outside of their home, but just taking up the defensive possition having the other side jump into them will be able to refit caps.
Further people will no longer be able to combat roll their holl in many situations, removing a hugh amount of tactics further increasign the value of more numbers. In addition to making it harder to cut an enemy fleet in half you can't roll away from a fight you dont want to take, you may think this is good people will take more fights, but instead people will just POS up and go play other games.
TL;DR: RIP offensive use of caps, and thanks CCP i have been meaning to catch up on other games while blue balling my enemies. |
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:26:00 -
[163] - Quote
Oreamnos Amric wrote:Surely the way to increase the chance of conflict in w-space is to make it easier to roll a wormhole rather than harder. Yes this means farmers can roll away their own static but they have no control over other groups rage rolling a K162 in their direction. Assuming farming groups don't outnumber combat-ready groups then a greater churn of K162s means more possibility of conflict.
Unless CCPs actual, unstated, goal is to reduce rage-rolling for fights...
I still think the better way to increase fights would be to reduce the spawn distance to 0km for all ships, all jumps, removing the ability to instantly cloak up after jumping. Instead of focusing on catching people during rolling, the focus would be on catching anyone jumping through at any time.
It would make scouting a little more dangerous (which, frankly, it should be), it would have no significant impact on hole-rolling mechanics, and it would mean more small-scale pvp opportunities. What's not to like? |
Murashj
NorCorp Enterprise No Holes Barred
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:29:00 -
[164] - Quote
blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
What he said Gåæ |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:29:00 -
[165] - Quote
Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Xaldafax Caerleon
Veritas Theory Fidelas Constans
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:31:00 -
[166] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Rage rolling could also be look at as a player deterministic result of inadequate wormhole spawn rates and lack of w-space connectivity. You rage roll to find shallow content on your own terms because the content you are currently finding is not adequate.
I think this hits the nail on the head. People rageroll to find content. Give them content a different way. We need to keep people from being able to do this over and over...
People roll WH holes also to provide safety to themselves because they don't want the risk. That is easy solution because WH space is risky and should stay. |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:32:00 -
[167] - Quote
Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:33:00 -
[168] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:33:00 -
[169] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. They want WH space to be like null. |
Zasamael
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:33:00 -
[170] - Quote
This is sh&t !!! Those changes will kill small and medium corps&alliance in wh space. |
|
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:34:00 -
[171] - Quote
Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know.
Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try. |
DRERZEWERZISH
THE GWG
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:35:00 -
[172] - Quote
Actually this isn't such a bad idea.
Now my larger ships won't be stuck on one side of a wormhole unable to cloak should the need arise. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
3636
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:35:00 -
[173] - Quote
Random thought:
drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right? Woo! CSM 9! http://fuzzwork.enterprises/ Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Karash Amerius
Sutoka
192
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:35:00 -
[174] - Quote
I get the sense that CCP really wants more groups to "commit" to going through a hole and all that entails; doubt there will be much retraction from this stated goal.
But the changes to distance is pretty drastic and will have the opposite effect than intended...people simply will go inactive.
This might be a stupid idea but here goes: Keep the changes you propose...but provide a separate and new way to roll holes that does not require jumping through them. Maybe a capital fitted module (insert generic space magic name here) that fits on a Roq that can Roll a hole in 5 to 10 minutes without needing to jump through it?
Just not seeing how both camps can be satisfied here...unless this change is scrapped all together, which probably the best course of action. Karash Amerius Operative, Sutoka |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:36:00 -
[175] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know. Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try. So, in order for it to "effect us", we have to be consuming the content on your terms? Sorry, but that is not how it works. Your social norms mean nothing to us. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
912
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:36:00 -
[176] - Quote
Let me just summarise. Large corps are against this idea Medium corps are against this idea Small corps are against this idea Our CSM representative is against this idea even Bob is against this idea.
Please tell us who is in favour of this idea again???
and why There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:37:00 -
[177] - Quote
Querns wrote:Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.
As CCP themselves state, they don't intend to stick to a design they made 5 years ago if players themselves found a better, more ingenious use for it (barring actual abuse, which this is not or they would have stated that matter-of-factly). |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:38:00 -
[178] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Let me just summarise. Large WH corps are against this idea Medium WH corps are against this idea Small Wh corps are against this idea Our WH CSM representative is against this idea even Bob is against this idea. Please tell us who is in favour of this idea again??? and why A large null sec alliance that is not allowed in WH space. |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:39:00 -
[179] - Quote
Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know. Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try. So, in order for it to "effect us", we have to be consuming the content on your terms? Sorry, but that is not how it works. Your social norms mean nothing to us.
You don't deploy caps unless you are running sites. These changes don't effect you.
|
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
80
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:39:00 -
[180] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Random thought: drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right?
We're rich, but that's mostly because we're not stupid enough to lose money in the billions of isk region on a regular basis.
It's faster for us just to burn interceptors and web-warp dreads and such than to use MJU's. |
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:41:00 -
[181] - Quote
Aender Wiggin wrote:Querns wrote:Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary. As CCP themselves state, they don't intend to stick to a design they made 5 years ago if players themselves found a better, more ingenious use for it (barring actual abuse, which this is not or they would have stated that matter-of-factly). This is true, but conversely, they are not obligated to support it either. Neither does the time period, protracted as it was, somehow imply that the existing mechanics are sacrosanct. Consider industry -- it lied unchanged for eleven years before they changed it. Wormholes have existed for half that time; they are not inviolate. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
913
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:42:00 -
[182] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Random thought: drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right?
I wrote quite a lot more and thought better of it. so I will reply with an emoticon.
I am sure it explains things quite well........
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:42:00 -
[183] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:Why are Goonies commenting on this? It doesn't really effect you. Says you. There are more of us in wormholes than you know. Sitting posd up or logging out when someone enters your system .... Yea nice try. So, in order for it to "effect us", we have to be consuming the content on your terms? Sorry, but that is not how it works. Your social norms mean nothing to us. You don't deploy caps unless you are running sites. These changes don't effect you. Perhaps the ones you've directly observed have not, but I know many who have. In fact, a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal has extensively ran sites in wormholes, supported by many capital ships. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:42:00 -
[184] - Quote
Querns wrote:
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary.
While this is a valid point, and the ability to pick your neighbors is a product of how the mechanic currently works. A lot of the arguments here aren't quoting that as their reason for not wanting this change.
I'm personally way more concerned with the destruction of my ability to find content than my lack of ability to remove content I don't want for one reason or another. I think most of WHS would agree with that.
Big threats in WHS (read good pilots/strong tacticians) can still effectively deter a group closing them out of the chain should the need arise. It's not easy, but it's definitely doable.
|
Budrick3
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
35
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:44:00 -
[185] - Quote
blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption." Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive. What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness. TL;DR 1. This will stop us from rolling 2. This will stop us from taking fights 3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps 4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
This, well said. I believe this will do more harm than good. |
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:45:00 -
[186] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).
I am in agreement and I will go so far as to say none of these changes really help with the bigger problem in Wspace. What Wspace really needs is a draw to get more pilots into wormholes to occupy the very EMPTY space because as it stands rage rolling was only used because there were no fights/content to be had. CCP, you are trying to "fix" the mechanics without addressing the function of Wspace. Most corps who lack the ability to field 30+ pilots to Rage-Roll post-Hyperion will stop scout their chain find nothing 9/10 times and then sit back and POS spin. I ask you this: What are you doing to fill the empty W-space? |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:48:00 -
[187] - Quote
So yes you just agreed with me. Goonie caps in wh space come out only for sites. Not PvP .
You certainly don't rage roll. |
Snakes-On-A-Plane
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:48:00 -
[188] - Quote
Querns wrote:Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary. It's more complex than you are thinking. It can be used to limit contact. Or can be used for the opposite purpose. WH rolling is sort of like cynoing, in that it expands your mobility and connectivity. And closing them and keeping them closed is sort of like cyno jamming. Except that analogy isn't accurate either, since you don't have to anchor jammers in the teeth of, and under fire from, an invading force.
Now I personally feel that null was better when you had only one or two routes to HS with no cynos or bridges, and that WH's were better before everyone started realizing you could control holes. Better for me, anyway, but I can see arguments for both sides certainly depending on what the player likes to do.
But I think if you are comparing WH's to gates, you aren't understanding the topic. It's not just about security, it's also about access to content, aggression... All of it. It's a difficult concept to explain to someone who does't live by it every day, no offense.
|
Keith Planck
Lazerhawks
849
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:48:00 -
[189] - Quote
I suggest a bell-curve based on mass.
Very small ships (scouts) and very large ships (capitals) would spawn close. Medium sized ships would spawn farther away (guardians have a 70km range so I'd say max distance would be 35kms)
Scouts no harder to kill: Check Capitals still somewhat safe to use on wormholes: Check Hole rolling speed not influenced: Check Heavy armor fleets don't have to worry about being too spread out: Check Kite doctrines will have the option to jump into enemy fleets: Check Hard as **** to code: Pending
I know it's tempting to believe that making capitals spawn farther away from wormholes will create more content. But right now capitals are used as a crutch to overcome larger numbers. With how risky it is to use them now, it's unlikely they will ever be used outside of suicide runs. can i content yet? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:49:00 -
[190] - Quote
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso wrote:I am in agreement and I will go so far as to say none of these changes really help with the bigger problem in Wspace. What Wspace really needs is a draw to get more pilots into wormholes to occupy the very EMPTY space because as it stands rage rolling was only used because there were no fights/content to be had. CCP, you are trying to "fix" the mechanics without addressing the function of Wspace. Most corps who lack the ability to field 30+ pilots to Rage-Roll post-Hyperion will stop scout their chain find nothing 9/10 times and then sit back and POS spin. I ask you this: What are you doing to fill the empty W-space? Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups. Limiting the ability to do this leaves more wormholes fallow, allowing more groups to move in. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:52:00 -
[191] - Quote
In the past CCP has said that they like doing small changes so they don't "break" anything. Sorry but your wh community has spoken and we don't want this. We have clearly labeled it as something too big. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:53:00 -
[192] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:So yes you just agreed with me. Goonie caps in wh space come out only for sites. Not PvP .
You certainly don't rage roll. This dovetails into your assertion that the only way a person can earn the "chops" to participate in a discussion about wormholes is to subscribe to your social mores; that the only people who are allowed to speak are those who perform a very limited subset of PvP; that those coming to w-space for PvE or non-capital-related PvP are somehow second class citizens. I refuse to accept this.
Intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is currently a fixture of both PvE and PvP and affects both gameplay facets equally. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
69
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:53:00 -
[193] - Quote
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:It should be the speed that you enter the wormhole at rather than mass
I like this idea best. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:58:00 -
[194] - Quote
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:Querns wrote:Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary. It's more complex than you are thinking. It can be used to limit contact. Or can be used for the opposite purpose. WH rolling is sort of like cynoing, in that it expands your mobility and connectivity. And closing them and keeping them closed is sort of like cyno jamming. Except that analogy isn't accurate either, since you don't have to anchor jammers in the teeth of, and under fire from, an invading force. Now I personally feel that null was better when you had only one or two routes to HS with no cynos or bridges, and that WH's were better before everyone started realizing you could control holes. Better for me, anyway, but I can see arguments for both sides certainly depending on what the player likes to do. But I think if you are comparing WH's to gates, you aren't understanding the topic. It's not just about security, it's also about access to content, aggression... All of it. It's a difficult concept to explain to someone who does't live by it every day, no offense. No -- I get it -- intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is also used to find PvP content. However, I'm still adamant in my assertion that it's PvE's use of the mechanic that causes it to also be "necessary" for PvP. Mass exhaustion's ability to allow a wormhole organization to consume resources far afield of their "home" drives out a large number of potential wormhole dwellers by starving them out. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Loris Fritz
Negative Density No Response
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:58:00 -
[195] - Quote
I really like this change!
It adds a lit more risk in wormhole space. I think this change will appeal to most PvP focused groups as no one will be able to roll a hole right I front of you without proper scouting and a lot of risk. Hopefully this could encourage more PvP focused groups to move into wormhole space just at the chance to capitalise on that risk.
New tac-tics will be formed and people will one again work to become efficient when rolling to pew or hide with these new procedures. In time we will look back at this and remember howparanoid we were about w-space being ruined, and have a good laugh about it. |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
209
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:59:00 -
[196] - Quote
Whilst this sounds better than what's on Sisi.... It's still a bad idea as others have already clearly stated.
Traiori wrote:EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.
EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away). Much better idea than the current plan imo. *like* |
Griznatch
MTCIFTPOH
287
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 17:59:00 -
[197] - Quote
An overwhelming majority of the time, if my corp rolls a hole, its to find something to do. How, exaclty, does making it more time consuming and risky (without a comparable increase in reward) to find content encourage more content? I used to have a clever sig but I lost it. |
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:00:00 -
[198] - Quote
Querns wrote:Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso wrote:I am in agreement and I will go so far as to say none of these changes really help with the bigger problem in Wspace. What Wspace really needs is a draw to get more pilots into wormholes to occupy the very EMPTY space because as it stands rage rolling was only used because there were no fights/content to be had. CCP, you are trying to "fix" the mechanics without addressing the function of Wspace. Most corps who lack the ability to field 30+ pilots to Rage-Roll post-Hyperion will stop scout their chain find nothing 9/10 times and then sit back and POS spin. I ask you this: What are you doing to fill the empty W-space? Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups. Limiting the ability to do this leaves more wormholes fallow, allowing more groups to move in.
I would be curious to see the numbers on how many active holes there are because from what I have seen in my time in Wspace is 70% of the holes are empty or abandoned; that leaves tons of anoms/relic/data/gas sites for all to be had. In the matter of exhausting wormholes. . . it is in fact the opposite; there are so many holes with nothing in them, as I pointed out before, that I could run sites 4-5 jumps down the chain in a T1 BS and hit D every 5 mins and get nothing for hours. <- That is a problem. Earning isk is only a means to A) get more ships to blow up B) get more plex to sub account to blow up ships and I can do that just fine in our hole, so what you said is not relevant. |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:00:00 -
[199] - Quote
Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:So yes you just agreed with me. Goonie caps in wh space come out only for sites. Not PvP .
You certainly don't rage roll. This dovetails into your assertion that the only way a person can earn the "chops" to participate in a discussion about wormholes is to subscribe to your social mores; that the only people who are allowed to speak are those who perform a very limited subset of PvP; that those coming to w-space for PvE or non-capital-related PvP are somehow second class citizens. I refuse to accept this. Intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is currently a fixture of both PvE and PvP and affects both gameplay facets equally.
Its not about "chops"... The big issues regarding this proposal seem to be centered around PvP with caps. Something goons doesn't do. That's all man. Not trying to get in a pissing match here.
|
Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
84
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:01:00 -
[200] - Quote
In fact, given that wormhole anomalies spawn like all other anomalies, we would have far more to do if every single hole was occupied by someone that cleared all of their sites completely every day.
Sites get locked into abandoned holes until someone runs them and clears them and forces them to respawn somewhere else. |
|
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:04:00 -
[201] - Quote
Querns wrote:Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso wrote:I am in agreement and I will go so far as to say none of these changes really help with the bigger problem in Wspace. What Wspace really needs is a draw to get more pilots into wormholes to occupy the very EMPTY space because as it stands rage rolling was only used because there were no fights/content to be had. CCP, you are trying to "fix" the mechanics without addressing the function of Wspace. Most corps who lack the ability to field 30+ pilots to Rage-Roll post-Hyperion will stop scout their chain find nothing 9/10 times and then sit back and POS spin. I ask you this: What are you doing to fill the empty W-space? Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups. Limiting the ability to do this leaves more wormholes fallow, allowing more groups to move in.
I use to live in a C5 with a C3 static. Did this for over 2 years and while it is true we were 'consuming the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes', doing this to inhabited systems was often times too much hasle unless we were actually looking for pvp. Thus, we were not actually exhausting anything. More so if you realize that those anomslies we despawned imediately spawn in another system of the same class. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:05:00 -
[202] - Quote
biz Antollare wrote:Querns wrote:biz Antollare wrote:So yes you just agreed with me. Goonie caps in wh space come out only for sites. Not PvP .
You certainly don't rage roll. This dovetails into your assertion that the only way a person can earn the "chops" to participate in a discussion about wormholes is to subscribe to your social mores; that the only people who are allowed to speak are those who perform a very limited subset of PvP; that those coming to w-space for PvE or non-capital-related PvP are somehow second class citizens. I refuse to accept this. Intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is currently a fixture of both PvE and PvP and affects both gameplay facets equally. Its not about "chops"... The big issues regarding this proposal seem to be centered around PvP with caps. Something goons doesn't do. That's all man. Not trying to get in a pissing match here. There's more to it than that -- it also has to do with the soft barrier to exhausting the mass in the first place, something that directly affects PvE -- the plankton that PvPers require. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Traba Regina
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:06:00 -
[203] - Quote
My initial impressions? well im pretty happy with the initial ideas you have proposed here, a few things probably need looking at.
k162's not spawning till you jump in:
this is better i like it alot, my concern would be the reduction in k space connections due to null bears and hisec fairies seeing its a c5 and warping elsewhere instead of jumping in, thus not opening the K162--
-- possibly add a timer/ delayed trigger to them opening?
The mass affecting spawn after entering a WH-- I like this idea in theory as it adds 'randomness and unknown' but i dislike the idea of risking a cap jumping and been very likely to be splattered! for the biggest (most organised) entities they will work around this by dropping a support fleet to scare any would be 'Chancers' but for small entities they will just not risk a cap tbh.
the wondering regenerating frigs only hole,
Id like to think that maybe this is groundwork for a future T3 frigate maybe, but i dont really get this for the higher class wh's unless brave newbies are going drop there fleets into them all the time i guess..
for the lower class wh's maybe this would be a decent content driver im unsure.
the effects particularly making use of a black hole.. well it had to be missiles bonus really lets face it :) im happy about it, looking forward to testing some of the mordus ships i still haven't found a reason to buy.. maybe this is a reason to buy one!
Overall im happy, fell a little cheated on the alliance Bm side... but hey your working on the whole corp/alliance roles system atm right? right? https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=225281&find=unread Join Serene Vendetta now! |
Griznatch
MTCIFTPOH
288
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:08:00 -
[204] - Quote
Querns wrote:Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:Querns wrote:Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary. It's more complex than you are thinking. It can be used to limit contact. Or can be used for the opposite purpose. WH rolling is sort of like cynoing, in that it expands your mobility and connectivity. And closing them and keeping them closed is sort of like cyno jamming. Except that analogy isn't accurate either, since you don't have to anchor jammers in the teeth of, and under fire from, an invading force. Now I personally feel that null was better when you had only one or two routes to HS with no cynos or bridges, and that WH's were better before everyone started realizing you could control holes. Better for me, anyway, but I can see arguments for both sides certainly depending on what the player likes to do. But I think if you are comparing WH's to gates, you aren't understanding the topic. It's not just about security, it's also about access to content, aggression... All of it. It's a difficult concept to explain to someone who does't live by it every day, no offense. No -- I get it -- intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is also used to find PvP content. However, I'm still adamant in my assertion that it's PvE's use of the mechanic that causes it to also be "necessary" for PvP. Mass exhaustion's ability to allow a wormhole organization to consume resources far afield of their "home" drives out a large number of potential wormhole dwellers by starving them out.
About consuming resources far afield, if our home hole is out of sites to run, or isnt currently occupied by a roaming gang, going to another system to find content is neccesary. If my home hole is used up and empty, the holes we're connected to are used up, and empty, and getting a connection to a new hole is a huge pain and/or cost, what precisely are we supposed to do? We log out and play a different game or watch TV. I don't consider that a valid option. The ability to roll a hole to a new place is crucial to wormhole life for several reasons, reducing that means more bored wormholers that have nothing to log in for. How does one create content in eve when you're playing Leage and watching GoT? I used to have a clever sig but I lost it. |
Rook Mallard
Aperture Harmonics
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:08:00 -
[205] - Quote
This is a bad design idea. Let's go back to basics:
1. WH space relies on connections to generate interactions, the more connections the more interactions 2. The more you can modify those connections (closing/opening holes) the more exiting interactions you can generate
A couple of examples:
- You want to get to HS (need fuel/update clone/buy ship/move loot out), you collapse your static cause it leads to null and start scanning again the new chain with the hopes of getting a HS exit. - You want to PvP in empire, you collapse your chain because there were no null sec exits in the current one.
This change makes closing those connections riskier and more tedious and time consuming.
It will result in people simply not collapsing holes because it is a pain (takes longer to cycle holes) or too risky for them at that time (lack of people online).
This will make the landscape more stagnant, meaning less content for us to do in WHs. Please reconsider. |
Missy Bunnz
Team Pizza The Hole Next Door
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:10:00 -
[206] - Quote
Your stated intentions are better met by other mechanics that do not cause the side effects that this proposed change causes.
Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
If your intentions are as stated, then you need to rework the change proposed immensely as the opportunity cost of what you are doing is very detrimental. Yes, we'll all adjust and adapt, but it will DECREASE player interaction, not increase it.
Instead of adjusting the distance you land on the other side (and all the problems that causes), implement a "mass timer" that affects the ability to transit the same wormhole. A > B with a frigate, you can jump B > A after 15 seconds, for example. Then A > B again is affected by polarity. This allows you to NOT adjust the positioning of fleets who are jumping but still deliver the "stuck for a while" to force engagements. A carrier could be stuck for as long as 4 minutes on the jump B>A after jumping A>B for example. The numbers can be played with to deliver the delay you want.
You could also do mass not based on individual ships but on traffic through in a particular amount of time, so a large t3 fleet that puts 1b mass on the WH, the individual elements can't jump back for as long as if they were a carrier. |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
272
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:10:00 -
[207] - Quote
Alternate proposal: Keep "default" jumping behavior the same. Introduce low-HP anchorable that causes the jump-distance effect. Make it a Sansha tech that drops from incursions (they uses WHs) or a w-space only drop from data/relic sites to make them a little more worth our while. Rewards people for being attentive if they want to stop someone from rolling, leaves an option for a smaller group to punch in long enough to take down a low-HP thing and then roll. Gives people something to fight over. |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:11:00 -
[208] - Quote
Admiral Douros wrote:As a wormhole resident, I don't like this idea at all. Rolling our c5 static is already a nail-biting process when we know that someone is active on the other side. Forcing a carrier to slowboat potentially 16km means that it's sitting there basically defenseless until it gets back, since we've already reduced the hole mass by more than half (assuming we jump a few battleships through with it). You're also welcoming hostiles to close the hole before you can make it back through by jumping their own battleships through and back.
Waaaaaaaaaa risk. WH space is supposed to be nail biting. If you can't handle it, log out. |
corebloodbrothers
Volition Cult The Volition Cult
625
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:13:00 -
[209] - Quote
Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:13:00 -
[210] - Quote
Griznatch wrote:Querns wrote: No -- I get it -- intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is also used to find PvP content. However, I'm still adamant in my assertion that it's PvE's use of the mechanic that causes it to also be "necessary" for PvP. Mass exhaustion's ability to allow a wormhole organization to consume resources far afield of their "home" drives out a large number of potential wormhole dwellers by starving them out.
About consuming resources far afield, if our home hole is out of sites to run, or isnt currently occupied by a roaming gang, going to another system to find content is neccesary. If my home hole is used up and empty, the holes we're connected to are used up, and empty, and getting a connection to a new hole is a huge pain and/or cost, what precisely are we supposed to do? We log out and play a different game or watch TV. I don't consider that a valid option. The ability to roll a hole to a new place is crucial to wormhole life for several reasons, reducing that means more bored wormholers that have nothing to log in for. How does one create content in eve when you're playing Leage and watching GoT? It's sort of a chicken and egg problem here, I agree -- the use of intentional mass exhaustion allows a single WH dweller group to grow a lot bigger. This means that this larger group then requires the large amount of content that they currently consume to remain engaged. However, it's not up to CCP to necessarily maintain this status quo; attrition of larger groups via this mechanic may indeed be a portion of their goal being served by this change. Of course, I don't actually know; that's just conjecture on my part. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
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Mindraak
Points Mean Prizes Genesis II
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:14:00 -
[211] - Quote
I'm just gonna quote this coz that is exactly what i think.
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).
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epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
914
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:15:00 -
[212] - Quote
Querns wrote:Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:Querns wrote:Additionally, it is amusing to see the vast fields of entitlement permeating this thread -- everyone seems to believe that being able to close your wormholes, to control who gets in and out is some sort of right. Have you considered that, perhaps, it isn't actually your right to be able to control your systems in such a manner? Certainly, no one else in eve enjoys such privileges, especially since the advent of the interdiction nullified interceptor.
I agree that it was definitely nice to be able to "pick your neighbors" in such a fashion, but I also agree that it was probably not the design intent of the space, and that CCP is both well within its rights to hamper it, and is probably correct in believing that it is necessary. It's more complex than you are thinking. It can be used to limit contact. Or can be used for the opposite purpose. WH rolling is sort of like cynoing, in that it expands your mobility and connectivity. And closing them and keeping them closed is sort of like cyno jamming. Except that analogy isn't accurate either, since you don't have to anchor jammers in the teeth of, and under fire from, an invading force. Now I personally feel that null was better when you had only one or two routes to HS with no cynos or bridges, and that WH's were better before everyone started realizing you could control holes. Better for me, anyway, but I can see arguments for both sides certainly depending on what the player likes to do. But I think if you are comparing WH's to gates, you aren't understanding the topic. It's not just about security, it's also about access to content, aggression... All of it. It's a difficult concept to explain to someone who does't live by it every day, no offense. No -- I get it -- intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is also used to find PvP content. However, I'm still adamant in my assertion that it's PvE's use of the mechanic that causes it to also be "necessary" for PvP. Mass exhaustion's ability to allow a wormhole organization to consume resources far afield of their "home" drives out a large number of potential wormhole dwellers by starving them out.
No that is really not the way it works, you are using Kspace experience and extrapolating, It really does not work this way at all.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Traba Regina
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:15:00 -
[213] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?
i dont think anyone is upset about any kspace, its the wh-wh connections where the exponential risk would lay.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=225281&find=unread Join Serene Vendetta now! |
Kennesaw Breach
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:15:00 -
[214] - Quote
If you want more fights, make people spawn CLOSER to the hole, not further away from it. Specifically, within 2000m so they can't immediately cloak up. Everyone jumping at any point becomes vulnerable until they get away from the hole, including scouts. Scouting is the ONE thing that is currently "too safe" in w-space, since it is nigh-impossible to catch a lone covops jumping through a hole.
Take away that insta-cloak ability and you'll get a lot more small-scale fights (good thing), you'll increase the risk for every single jump through a wormhole (good thing), and you can skip the whole arbitrary mass/distance relationship thing. |
Snakes-On-A-Plane
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:16:00 -
[215] - Quote
Querns wrote: No -- I get it -- intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is also used to find PvP content. However, I'm still adamant in my assertion that it's PvE's use of the mechanic that causes it to also be "necessary" for PvP. Mass exhaustion's ability to allow a wormhole organization to consume resources far afield of their "home" drives out a large number of potential wormhole dwellers by starving them out.
Resource usage and competition for resources has little impact on j-space. The concern can pop up on occasions, but it's not a major driver in activity. Most movement in wormholes is PvPers seeking targets, or players seeking logistical routes (to connect to allies or k-space). This has been the case even before the community at large learned to roll holes effectively. |
Klarion Sythis
Literally Solo
292
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:17:00 -
[216] - Quote
Theoretically, riskier hole rolling may mean there are more connections remaining open if you can't insta-roll it or otherwise view it as too dangerous. On the other hand, K162's not showing up until someone jumps through could mean some connections remain closed.
Critically, though, active systems are the ones we want into. It's already quite easy not to open K162's from a populated, active system, but now it's riskier and more time consuming to close connections from an active system. I don't think people want to roam empty connections, they want to find connections to active systems.
Right now, people can break themselves from the network at will and chain rolling is the only way to force your way into an active system that closed its connections.
The frigate holes, the delayed K162, and an aversion to closure via caps could mean it's not as easy to isolate oneself. I think if the design goal is to reduce isolation, then cool, let's work from there.
Caps landing out of refit range is bad for bigger groups right now. Small scale cap warfare is most realistic in W-Space right now, so that needs to survive. |
Griznatch
MTCIFTPOH
288
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:17:00 -
[217] - Quote
Querns wrote:Griznatch wrote:Querns wrote: No -- I get it -- intentional wormhole mass exhaustion is also used to find PvP content. However, I'm still adamant in my assertion that it's PvE's use of the mechanic that causes it to also be "necessary" for PvP. Mass exhaustion's ability to allow a wormhole organization to consume resources far afield of their "home" drives out a large number of potential wormhole dwellers by starving them out.
About consuming resources far afield, if our home hole is out of sites to run, or isnt currently occupied by a roaming gang, going to another system to find content is neccesary. If my home hole is used up and empty, the holes we're connected to are used up, and empty, and getting a connection to a new hole is a huge pain and/or cost, what precisely are we supposed to do? We log out and play a different game or watch TV. I don't consider that a valid option. The ability to roll a hole to a new place is crucial to wormhole life for several reasons, reducing that means more bored wormholers that have nothing to log in for. How does one create content in eve when you're playing Leage and watching GoT? It's sort of a chicken and egg problem here, I agree -- the use of intentional mass exhaustion allows a single WH dweller group to grow a lot bigger. This means that this larger group then requires the large amount of content that they currently consume to remain engaged. However, it's not up to CCP to necessarily maintain this status quo; attrition of larger groups via this mechanic may indeed be a portion of their goal being served by this change. Of course, I don't actually know; that's just conjecture on my part.
It's not about wormhole corps getting bigger. My dozen strong corp can wipe out all our sites and be left with nothing to do but PI in a very short peiod of time. A single wormhole system cant support even a small groups desire for content. Unless the amount of per-hole content goes up dramatically, the need to visit other holes regularly won't go away. Making it more difficult to visit other holes just makes the problem worse. I used to have a clever sig but I lost it. |
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:17:00 -
[218] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?
It's interconnected holes really - nobody would generally bother rolling k-space holes except the C2 k-space statics.
The annoyance is that at the minute you often end up rolling your static over and over and over to try and find a wormhole chain that has something good in it - making this process even more boring and annoying just means people will do it less, so there's less content. Additionally, people will be less willing to jump expensive cap ships into wormhole fights (which are very commonly at 0 on a wormhole) if they're going to end up spawning outside of refit range and so on, so there's less content.
Basically, it will just stop people doing things rather than solving the problem CCP are trying to sort, which is "it's too safe to roll a wormhole"
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biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:19:00 -
[219] - Quote
Here's another example of what this change will do because its happenig already...
I had a few smaller c5 corps approach me the past couple days asking me "if this really happens do you think we could move in with you?"
People are already willing to leave their hole becuse of this. Some might go to a large group, some maybe k-space. This isn't what we were trying to accomplish when we had that wormhole town hall meeting. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
914
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:20:00 -
[220] - Quote
Traba Regina wrote:corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both? i dont think anyone is upset about any kspace, its the wh-wh connections where the exponential risk would lay.
Actually jspace to null would be horrible under this mechanic too, It has NO redeeming features whatsoever.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
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Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:22:00 -
[221] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:No that is really not the way it works, you are using Kspace experience and extrapolating, It really does not work this way at all.
Sure it is -- assuming, of course, that the "lore" behind WH anoms is true; namely, that completing a site causes it to immediately respawn in another wormhole of the same class or "region" (I've heard multiple versions.) Consider C6s -- most of these systems are populated and C6 dwellers typically report a high rate of respawn for anomalies. Compare this to C5s, which are more numerous, and often require intentional mass exhaustion to locate sites. This is a classic example of one behavior affecting the other; exhausting the wormhole mass allows you to consume the resources that are being concentrated in fallow systems by this overconsumption in the first place. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:23:00 -
[222] - Quote
The more I read, the more it seems like the complaints aren't about an inability to find content, they're about the inability to find content on their own terms.
There's a whole lot of complaining that the content might find them and they can't stop it from happening, which seems somewhat hypocritical, given other statements being consistently made.
The other portion of the complaints (reps etc.) would be solved, per my other suggestion, of changing the spawn position mechanics following a jump to be based on your source position relative to the signature you jumped. Could keep logi or refitting dreads in range of their carriers, but still have the spawn distance as an element.
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Traiori
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
86
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:23:00 -
[223] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
The difference now is that fights will end before you normally saw the caps at all.
Triage archons let our smaller fleets engage your larger ones. I've been in a fair few scraps where there's been 70-100 nullsec people lying around trying to get at things, and we simply can't fight you without bringing the triage archon with us. We now can't bring that triage archon.
This might differ for groups that can field 40-50 pilots (like Hard Knocks), but certainly you'll see less engagements from the smaller groups. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
914
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:24:00 -
[224] - Quote
Querns wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:No that is really not the way it works, you are using Kspace experience and extrapolating, It really does not work this way at all.
Sure it is -- assuming, of course, that the "lore" behind WH anoms is true; namely, that completing a site causes it to immediately respawn in another wormhole of the same class or "region" (I've heard multiple versions.) Consider C6s -- most of these systems are populated and C6 dwellers typically report a high rate of respawn for anomalies. Compare this to C5s, which are more numerous, and often require intentional mass exhaustion to locate sites. This is a classic example of one behavior affecting the other; exhausting the wormhole mass allows you to consume the resources that are being concentrated in fallow systems by this overconsumption in the first place.
fortunately the resources are not so "limited" so as to have been all consumed by others. Possibly due to the fact that wormhole groups tend to operate on a smaller scale, whilst one may exhaust ones own holes resources by over consuming, I have never found a chain with no resources. In something like a c4 with static c4 that may of course be possible. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:25:00 -
[225] - Quote
Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:Basically, it will just stop people doing things rather than solving the problem CCP are trying to sort, which is "it's too safe to roll a wormhole"
So what's the answer? I can't come up with a significantly better idea than what they're proposing, and the "don't change anything" is falling on deaf ears (as, IMO, it should)
|
Rena Senn
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
115
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:26:00 -
[226] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Admiral Douros wrote:As a wormhole resident, I don't like this idea at all. Rolling our c5 static is already a nail-biting process when we know that someone is active on the other side. Forcing a carrier to slowboat potentially 16km means that it's sitting there basically defenseless until it gets back, since we've already reduced the hole mass by more than half (assuming we jump a few battleships through with it). You're also welcoming hostiles to close the hole before you can make it back through by jumping their own battleships through and back. Waaaaaaaaaa risk. WH space is supposed to be nail biting. If you can't handle it, log out. You can't force people to take more risk when they still have less riskier options available. If losing a hole rolling cap sucks more than losing a hole rolling battleship and is also riskier, then people will just stop using hole rolling caps unless they can make it at least as safe as it is currently to do so. That means fewer hole rolling caps in general, but the few that do end up being put to that use still not being exposed to any increased risk due to player mitigation. |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
190
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:26:00 -
[227] - Quote
My thoughts.
First refit range, caps spawning out of refit range of carriers is an issue, one that anyone competent will capitalize against.
to quote from a conversation held elsewhere.
Axloth Okiah wrote:[18:16:47] Axloth Okiah > those 10 extra kilometers make it no more dangerous but much more annoying and time consuming
Bumping a cap further off a hole is the as easy from 6-10k as it is from 20k minus the annoying time sink of slowboating.
By letting carriers and dreads spawn in this range you don't completely negate the ability of things to be in refit range and you still have the danger of them being out of instant jump range and therefore get bumped further out. Arbitrary timesinks are not interesting gameplay. I can get behind holerolling being a more risk intensive behavior. However making you can accomplish this without making the whole process tedious. (more then it already is)
Hole rolling is our version of roams, its w-space content search feature. Changes to increase activity and conflict are good, however changes which slowdown rolling counteracts this.
Tl;DR
Conflict good and caps being out of instant jump range sure, tedium and timeksinks bad caps being far enough to add annoying time consuming slowboating when they are already in danger is just going to decrease amount of rolling/fights found. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:27:00 -
[228] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:Basically, it will just stop people doing things rather than solving the problem CCP are trying to sort, which is "it's too safe to roll a wormhole"
So what's the answer? I can't come up with a significantly better idea than what they're proposing, and the "don't change anything" is falling on deaf ears (as, IMO, it should) Longer polarization? Changing mass limits? I'm sure there are plenty of other fixes for rage rolling. |
Missy Bunnz
Team Pizza The Hole Next Door
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:28:00 -
[229] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:Basically, it will just stop people doing things rather than solving the problem CCP are trying to sort, which is "it's too safe to roll a wormhole"
So what's the answer? I can't come up with a significantly better idea than what they're proposing, and the "don't change anything" is falling on deaf ears (as, IMO, it should)
Missy Bunnz wrote: Instead of adjusting the distance you land on the other side (and all the problems that causes), implement a "mass timer" that affects the ability to transit the same wormhole. A > B with a frigate, you can jump B > A after 15 seconds, for example. Then A > B again is affected by polarity. This allows you to NOT adjust the positioning of fleets who are jumping but still deliver the "stuck for a while" to force engagements. A carrier could be stuck for as long as 4 minutes on the jump B>A after jumping A>B for example. The numbers can be played with to deliver the delay you want.
You could also do mass not based on individual ships but on traffic through in a particular amount of time, so a large t3 fleet that puts 1b mass on the WH, the individual elements can't jump back for as long as if they were a carrier.
Is the answer, posted above but overrun by people trying to maintain the status quo. ;) |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:28:00 -
[230] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Querns wrote: Sure it is -- assuming, of course, that the "lore" behind WH anoms is true; namely, that completing a site causes it to immediately respawn in another wormhole of the same class or "region" (I've heard multiple versions.) Consider C6s -- most of these systems are populated and C6 dwellers typically report a high rate of respawn for anomalies. Compare this to C5s, which are more numerous, and often require intentional mass exhaustion to locate sites. This is a classic example of one behavior affecting the other; exhausting the wormhole mass allows you to consume the resources that are being concentrated in fallow systems by this overconsumption in the first place.
fortunately the resources are not so "limited" so as to have been all consumed by others. Possibly due to the fact that wormhole groups tend to operate on a smaller scale, whilst one may exhaust ones own holes resources by over consuming, I have never found a chain with no resources. In something like a c4 with static c4 that may of course be possible. Sure, but that's because you can cast your net over a much wider area with the use of mass exhaustion. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
914
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:28:00 -
[231] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:Basically, it will just stop people doing things rather than solving the problem CCP are trying to sort, which is "it's too safe to roll a wormhole"
So what's the answer? I can't come up with a significantly better idea than what they're proposing, and the "don't change anything" is falling on deaf ears (as, IMO, it should) being as the idea has no merit whatsoever and is simply just something "thought" up to "shake things up" inaction is a better alternative as is probably almost anything that has some thought and understanding of wormholes.
CCP please just drop this idea and move on. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Air Cloud
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:29:00 -
[232] - Quote
I don't want to repeat myslef let me just post my reply to another thread concerning same topic: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4884443#post4884443
it is in main thread concerning all changes in the Hyperion concerning WH space combined... |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
914
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:30:00 -
[233] - Quote
Querns wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Querns wrote: Sure it is -- assuming, of course, that the "lore" behind WH anoms is true; namely, that completing a site causes it to immediately respawn in another wormhole of the same class or "region" (I've heard multiple versions.) Consider C6s -- most of these systems are populated and C6 dwellers typically report a high rate of respawn for anomalies. Compare this to C5s, which are more numerous, and often require intentional mass exhaustion to locate sites. This is a classic example of one behavior affecting the other; exhausting the wormhole mass allows you to consume the resources that are being concentrated in fallow systems by this overconsumption in the first place.
fortunately the resources are not so "limited" so as to have been all consumed by others. Possibly due to the fact that wormhole groups tend to operate on a smaller scale, whilst one may exhaust ones own holes resources by over consuming, I have never found a chain with no resources. In something like a c4 with static c4 that may of course be possible. Sure, but that's because you can cast your net over a much wider area with the use of mass exhaustion.
That is true, but as it is not required, it is not the common reason to do so, there is no such thing as the Perfect PVE system, but you may be right, some may seek them, just not in my experience. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
152
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:30:00 -
[234] - Quote
Rroff wrote:I'd rather see something like for instance using a prop mod when jumping causing you to be thrown further out as this could be combined to make skirmish setups feasible in situations they currently aren't. (Stick a note in the wh information about how prop mods have an effect/advising turning them off).
This is a good idea. It would be interesting if pilot action such as putting on a prop mod would cause us to spawn further out. The new spawn distance for cruisers or frigates is not far enough out to be tactically interesting.
|
Rena Senn
Resurrection Ventures Un.Bound
115
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:31:00 -
[235] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:Basically, it will just stop people doing things rather than solving the problem CCP are trying to sort, which is "it's too safe to roll a wormhole"
So what's the answer? I can't come up with a significantly better idea than what they're proposing, and the "don't change anything" is falling on deaf ears (as, IMO, it should) Beat them over the head with "don't change anything" until it finally sinks in. If someone say from now on all the bread you buy is going to be marinated in rat urine, you make him stop rather than negotiate just how much rat urine he gets to use. |
Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
105
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:31:00 -
[236] - Quote
So, I'm not in w-space much anymore, but from a vets point of view I can honestly say that 90% of this change is/will be bad for w-space. I can understand that CCP would want to shake thing up, but this would most likely create further stagnation. Not only would people likely NOT commit caps to fights, but this change hinders the possibility to counter larger fleets and the possibility of retreat. Try thinking of it like flying a very tanky orca through nullsec. If you get caught, you are 100% dead.
I would think CCP would know this by now, but the vast majority of players are quite risk averse, including wormholers. As a suggestion, perhaps make the mass - distance relationship inversely instead of directly proportional, ie make large mass ships spawn closer while smaller ships spawn further.
Not only would this change have players still committing capitals to fights, but the smaller mass ships like cruisers and frigates would be hard pressed to make a retreat there by still providing valuable content. Remember, capitals cannot use emergency cynos to escape a fleet in w-space and MUST use a wormhole. Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:31:00 -
[237] - Quote
Querns wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Querns wrote: Sure it is -- assuming, of course, that the "lore" behind WH anoms is true; namely, that completing a site causes it to immediately respawn in another wormhole of the same class or "region" (I've heard multiple versions.) Consider C6s -- most of these systems are populated and C6 dwellers typically report a high rate of respawn for anomalies. Compare this to C5s, which are more numerous, and often require intentional mass exhaustion to locate sites. This is a classic example of one behavior affecting the other; exhausting the wormhole mass allows you to consume the resources that are being concentrated in fallow systems by this overconsumption in the first place.
fortunately the resources are not so "limited" so as to have been all consumed by others. Possibly due to the fact that wormhole groups tend to operate on a smaller scale, whilst one may exhaust ones own holes resources by over consuming, I have never found a chain with no resources. In something like a c4 with static c4 that may of course be possible. Sure, but that's because you can cast your net over a much wider area with the use of mass exhaustion. Adding mineable moons would probably prevent mass exhaustion. |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
273
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:33:00 -
[238] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?
Mostly WH-WH mechanics. We have "static" wormholes that respawn immediately when crashed. It's how we get around, basically, and how we find things to do. This makes it much slower, riskier, and more annoying to do any of it, and makes it very easy for someone to just say "you don't get to do anything today".
Nullsec gates aren't quite the right comparison. Even in a system with only one gate, if someone camps the gate you still have alternatives (bridges, cynos). You can also summon help to clear away the camp. We just get locked into a little box where we can't do anything except sit inside our POS shields.
Here's an analogy for the inconvenience aspect: Imagine if you spawned randomly within 100km of a cyno when you jumped, instead of 5. Think of how much of a PITA it would be to move caps around. Now imagine that was the only way to go anywhere. |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
184
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:33:00 -
[239] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Gospadin wrote:Nors Phlebas Sabelhpsron wrote:Basically, it will just stop people doing things rather than solving the problem CCP are trying to sort, which is "it's too safe to roll a wormhole"
So what's the answer? I can't come up with a significantly better idea than what they're proposing, and the "don't change anything" is falling on deaf ears (as, IMO, it should) being as the idea has no merit whatsoever and is simply just something "thought" up to "shake things up" inaction is a better alternative as is probably almost anything that has some thought and understanding of wormholes. CCP please just drop this idea and move on.
Why is inaction better? If CCPs internal data suggests subscriptions are declining, and lots of folks are giving up on w-space, or purely use it for PI on alts, then a shakeup is probably what is needed. |
Nys Cron
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:33:00 -
[240] - Quote
This will be not that big a deal for large corps as they can bring enough support to still roll safely, it will just be a bit more annoying to do. There will probably be less rolling for PvP but not that significantly.
Small corporations connected to bigger PvP entities will just not bother with trying to roll the connection but log off instead, this is already happening with lower class WHs that are more tedious to roll.
The biggest problem I have with this change is that it renders triage carriers nearly useless as the only way to have a chance of surviving a medium to large fight with triage carriers is to bring two of them and alternate siege cycles/refit. With the change these carriers will spawn up to ~40km from each other which makes these tactics impossible. Solo triage carriers usually die very quickly and are not worth bringing. Furthermore this benefits entities that are risk averse and prefer staying in their home system even more: in addition to being able to bring nearly unlimited reinforcements and numbers of capitals, they don't have to deal with the spawn distance problem while the attackers are even more limited in what and how they bring capitals than they already are.
All in all it seems like this change would just cause less PvP to happen and make PvE more annoying and risky for small groups. I think this goes against the overall goals for the proposed changes to w-space. |
|
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
190
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:33:00 -
[241] - Quote
Traiori wrote:corebloodbrothers wrote:from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em. The difference now is that fights will end before you normally saw the caps at all. Triage archons let our smaller fleets engage your larger ones. I've been in a fair few scraps where there's been 70-100 nullsec people lying around trying to get at things, and we simply can't fight you without bringing the triage archon with us. We now can't bring that triage archon. This might differ for groups that can field 40-50 pilots (like Hard Knocks), but certainly you'll see less engagements from the smaller groups.
This is a perfect summation of this.
You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:35:00 -
[242] - Quote
Janice en Marland wrote:Querns wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Querns wrote: Sure it is -- assuming, of course, that the "lore" behind WH anoms is true; namely, that completing a site causes it to immediately respawn in another wormhole of the same class or "region" (I've heard multiple versions.) Consider C6s -- most of these systems are populated and C6 dwellers typically report a high rate of respawn for anomalies. Compare this to C5s, which are more numerous, and often require intentional mass exhaustion to locate sites. This is a classic example of one behavior affecting the other; exhausting the wormhole mass allows you to consume the resources that are being concentrated in fallow systems by this overconsumption in the first place.
fortunately the resources are not so "limited" so as to have been all consumed by others. Possibly due to the fact that wormhole groups tend to operate on a smaller scale, whilst one may exhaust ones own holes resources by over consuming, I have never found a chain with no resources. In something like a c4 with static c4 that may of course be possible. Sure, but that's because you can cast your net over a much wider area with the use of mass exhaustion. Adding mineable moons would probably prevent mass exhaustion. Are you really prepared to operate multiple POS in a system solely for mining moons without using mass exhaustion to open up logistics routes for the ice you need to fuel those towers and move moongoo to market? :V
(contrivance ahoy) This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
SpacePhenix
KnownUnknown
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:37:00 -
[243] - Quote
Soo CCP ******* up the sience and industry wasnt inugh??????
Do not toutch WH space... its bad inugh as it is... and honestly i dont trust you to improve the game anymore.... course your have only ****** eve up the last 3-4-5 patches so i beg u .... DO NOT F TOUCH WH SPACE....
Note to self spurges ... Do you see the who this post is adressed to... |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
653
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:37:00 -
[244] - Quote
Querns wrote: Are you really prepared to operate multiple POS in a system solely for mining moons without using mass exhaustion to open up logistics routes for the ice you need to fuel those towers and move moongoo to market? :V
(contrivance ahoy)
long ago Wormfleet planned to do this, but that was back in the 200k dyspro days
sure as hell wouldn't do it now
edit: fun fact I can use gazes solely because I trained them for what we thought would be the initial rush to find dyspro in the wormholes, and you can imagine how pleased i was at that month of training once they didn't seed moon mins |
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
210
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:37:00 -
[245] - Quote
Just further food for thought on the suggestion of movement speed when jumping being proportional to distance you spawn from the WH. That'd be great fun imo. Small mobile skirmish fleets could burn at the hole and jump, to try and get past brawlers on the other side with bubbles. Yes some might argue that means they'll just run away - but atleast they're jumping right?! |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
152
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:39:00 -
[246] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:Rolling our 3bil C2-C5 static will be so much fun. Up to 6.3 km away from jump range in BS. And every time we connect to a major PvP group we will lose ships or have to log for the night. Give C2s the income to feed 100 ppl and we will be able to defend our collapsing BS and give a fight.
Try nano - typhoons or panthers. Boating a short distance in either is not a big deal. One could argue this change is an improvement for black ops as further out will frequently be better. |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:39:00 -
[247] - Quote
Querns wrote:Janice en Marland wrote:Querns wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Querns wrote: Sure it is -- assuming, of course, that the "lore" behind WH anoms is true; namely, that completing a site causes it to immediately respawn in another wormhole of the same class or "region" (I've heard multiple versions.) Consider C6s -- most of these systems are populated and C6 dwellers typically report a high rate of respawn for anomalies. Compare this to C5s, which are more numerous, and often require intentional mass exhaustion to locate sites. This is a classic example of one behavior affecting the other; exhausting the wormhole mass allows you to consume the resources that are being concentrated in fallow systems by this overconsumption in the first place.
fortunately the resources are not so "limited" so as to have been all consumed by others. Possibly due to the fact that wormhole groups tend to operate on a smaller scale, whilst one may exhaust ones own holes resources by over consuming, I have never found a chain with no resources. In something like a c4 with static c4 that may of course be possible. Sure, but that's because you can cast your net over a much wider area with the use of mass exhaustion. Adding mineable moons would probably prevent mass exhaustion. Are you really prepared to operate multiple POS in a system solely for mining moons without using mass exhaustion to open up logistics routes for the ice you need to fuel those towers and move moongoo to market? :V (contrivance ahoy) So we do want mass exhaustion? |
Thom Mangum
Blue-Fire
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:40:00 -
[248] - Quote
Terrible idea.
1. Small groups simply won't be able to roll very often. Orcas dying every week will get old for low-class residents. Even spawning 8k away, this gives plenty Capitals dying is even worse. With these changes you'll want to warp off your capital and back to roll the wormhole. For smaller groups this just won't be worth the risk. If there is anybody ~relevant~ in the chain, this hole just isn't going to close and that whole corp will have to log off for the day. Even for larger groups, there are times when I am rolling the hole by myself at off-hours to try and get some solo pvp down the chain. I'll have to log off until later because it's not worth the risk of a dread to close bad connections.
2. Rage Rolling This will over triple the time required to rage roll. capitals have to warp off hole and back to close the connection.
3. Capitals won't be used for skirmishes in other systems Capitals are often used to balance out numbers in enemy systems (being the only logi allows other pilots to get combat ships), knowing that you can retreat easily if the fight starts going south. Capitals often still die on wormholes like this, but if these changes are implemented nobody will be willing to put that carrier in at 20km away from the fight, knowing they have to win or surrender the capital. On top of this, capitals spawning up to 40km away from each other doesn't allow for refitting, an essential capital ship combat technique.
With these changes, CCP seems like it is promoting blobfests in wormholes like they already have done in nullsec. Large groups already are capable of fielding 50 man t3 gangs, I'd really rather that number go down. These changes only make life easier as a wormblobber, and harder on the small man. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
152
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:40:00 -
[249] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Just further food for thought on the suggestion of movement speed when jumping being proportional to distance you spawn from the WH. That'd be great fun imo. Small mobile skirmish fleets could burn at the hole and jump, to try and get past brawlers on the other side with bubbles. Yes some might argue that means they'll just run away - but atleast they're jumping right?!
I like this idea. It would be more fun and interesting if movement were more significant. |
Tvashnar Crendraven
The Scope Gallente Federation
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:40:00 -
[250] - Quote
"I want to remind people that unannounced changes appearing on test servers are not a reliable guide for what might reach Tranquility."
Unless it's a bug. |
|
Undermine Dahl
Revenant Tactical Ineluctable.
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:41:00 -
[251] - Quote
I really think this is gona hurt small gang big time. I fly in 10-20 man fleets and we just moved into a c5 > c3. If say a large wh corp comes alonge I want to fight them. This would recruire some tactics like seperating their fleet and such or putting mass on the wormhole to limit their ships. I am not going to order my carrier pilot to round trip if there is any chance the residance just say oh there is a carrier on scan> he will be out of jump range > Ill warp my saber to the hole so as the carrier bounces I can get it stuck even farther away.
I think all the other changes are really and will make it very interesting but this one feel in a way like making whs gates.
I feel that it is part of wormhole space to say "whats going on in this system" then jump through and there is a very large t3 fleet with carrier support and dreads on dscan and then to just jump back out of that hole and bounce to escape. Its also part of it that you are in a scan frig or other cloaky and there is a chance you are gona get caught inside decloak range and you may be killed. I just feel this is not going to make any one very happy. even the large groups (who it favors unlike what I feel wormholes is all about (small gangs being very effective)) say its not a good change.
Just think about it for you self and take feedback from people that play the game almost every day.
this much negative feedback when most people are on out doing stuff for summer. its not going to be good. dont force stuff that everyone who lives in this area say its a bad idea. |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:42:00 -
[252] - Quote
Querns wrote: Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups.
How would that even happen? Even if there were a large number of groups in C5s/C6s consuming every site - the respawn mechanism would mean that there exactly as many sites at the end as there were at the beginning of the process. The fact that you can roll into C5 after unoccupied C5 with large numbers of sites (and which prior to the NPC kill information being removed you could tell hadn't been touched in weeks) indicates clearly that the mechanism you describe is not in effect. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2060
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:42:00 -
[253] - Quote
A+ change.
ty for trying to bring some actual risk to wormholes. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:43:00 -
[254] - Quote
Janice en Marland wrote:Querns wrote:Janice en Marland wrote:Adding mineable moons would probably prevent mass exhaustion. Are you really prepared to operate multiple POS in a system solely for mining moons without using mass exhaustion to open up logistics routes for the ice you need to fuel those towers and move moongoo to market? :V (contrivance ahoy) So we do want mass exhaustion? No, I was replying in jest to your assertion that adding moon minerals to wormholes would somehow decrease the use of mass exhaustion. It would cause it to increase; it's not like anyone would be sated solely from moon mining income, and it increases the amount of hauling that has to go in and out of the wormhole. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
653
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:44:00 -
[255] - Quote
SpacePhenix wrote:Soo CCP ******* up the sience and industry wasnt inugh??????
Do not toutch WH space... its bad inugh as it is... and honestly i dont trust you to improve the game anymore.... course your have only ****** eve up the last 3-4-5 patches so i beg u .... DO NOT F TOUCH WH SPACE....
Note to self spurges ... Do you see the who this post is adressed to... This is a friendly suggestion but your input would probably be taken more seriously if you tried spelling words correctly as that indicates you took the time to think about what you were saying and put some serious effort into it.
It would also help if you spelled your name correctly. |
Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
106
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:44:00 -
[256] - Quote
Thom Mangum wrote:Terrible idea.
1. Small groups simply won't be able to roll very often. Orcas dying every week will get old for low-class residents. Even spawning 8k away, this gives plenty Capitals dying is even worse. With these changes you'll want to warp off your capital and back to roll the wormhole. For smaller groups this just won't be worth the risk. If there is anybody ~relevant~ in the chain, this hole just isn't going to close and that whole corp will have to log off for the day. Even for larger groups, there are times when I am rolling the hole by myself at off-hours to try and get some solo pvp down the chain. I'll have to log off until later because it's not worth the risk of a dread to close bad connections.
2. Rage Rolling This will over triple the time required to rage roll. capitals have to warp off hole and back to close the connection.
3. Capitals won't be used for skirmishes in other systems Capitals are often used to balance out numbers in enemy systems (being the only logi allows other pilots to get combat ships), knowing that you can retreat easily if the fight starts going south. Capitals often still die on wormholes like this, but if these changes are implemented nobody will be willing to put that carrier in at 20km away from the fight, knowing they have to win or surrender the capital. On top of this, capitals spawning up to 40km away from each other doesn't allow for refitting, an essential capital ship combat technique.
With these changes, CCP seems like it is promoting blobfests in wormholes like they already have done in nullsec. Large groups already are capable of fielding 50 man t3 gangs, I'd really rather that number go down. These changes only make life easier as a wormblobber, and harder on the small man.
And this, my friends, is the reason people live in w-space: to avoid the blob fest and chances of hot drops.
Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
Jess Tanner
Bangworks Systems Inc.
114
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:44:00 -
[257] - Quote
20km is effectively the same as 40km when your talking about rolling a hole, you still have to warp off. The suggestion about tying the extended jump range to one side of the jump equation has some merit though, if not the k162->spawnhole jump, perhaps if you jump a wormhole and it would result in either polarization or the collapse of a wormhole (ie the 2nd jump in 4.5 minutes, usually the return on a collapsing jump), your spawn is possibly further away, that wouldn't kill rage rolling for content, would not effect wormhole logistics, and would input an interesting dynamic to cap fights on a wormhole. Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back. |
Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:45:00 -
[258] - Quote
I ask that you consider the first part of the devblog. Our peculiar little civilization sprung up around the ability to manipulate wormholes the way we do. The fact that we can go looking for fights, looking for PvE, or looking for good connections to k-space to do logistics has informed how we have built our entire infrastructure. The fact that we can let people be trapped in hostile systems and chainroll to get them back influences how we interact with other corporations. The fact that everyone gets dumped on top of each other within jump range is what makes the polarization timer so relevant. The ability to drastically change the environment mid-fight, either to split up a fleet or cut off reinforcements, means that everyone involved has to try to be watching everywhere all at once.
Another thing to consider is that wormhole space uses capitals differently. They're the biggest and baddest asset we can take to a fight, and they get blinged out like supercaps in k-space. Capitals jump into a fight and slam triage/siege. They can't jump in triage or siege anyway. Their support fleet will be mostly cruiser sized. This scattering spreads people out and means that whoever your fleet is jumping into has the positioning advantage from the start. Sure, it's interesting to think of calling a fight where you space people out by distance and have them tackle whoever spawns right next to them, but thinking of being the fleet jumping into that snare over and over again is much less appealing. There's a reason that you don't always jump on contact: because you don't always want to send people in piecemeal and let them get spread out without having all the information.
The change you want to make to K162 spawning will do plenty to alter the environment in favor of giving hunting players more time undetected by their prey. You can't crash a wormhole that you can't detect yet. If a K162 signature doesn't spawn until someone has transited it, then whoever is on the hunt has a lot more lead time. If nothing else, they'll always beat the occupants of the destination system to the hole.
Wormhole collapsing and spawning mechanics are what we live around. Dead time bouncing capitals off of planets to chainroll faster is boring. Doing the things we chainroll to find or enable is fun. Hiding in a POS because there's a 50 person fleet at your door and you only have 10 is boring. Slamming the door in their faces and finding something fun to do with those 10 people -- like, say, hunting for a fleet closer to our own size -- is a much better use of our time. We might risk committing capitals to speed crash even if there is a hostile fleet on the other side, or even to tempt them into jumpin. We won't do that if the capital lands 20k off the hole on the far side. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:46:00 -
[259] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:Querns wrote: Have you considered that the very act of intentionally exhausting wormholes is causing this observed desertion? Being able to consume the anomalies and sites of multiple wormholes in series allows one group to consume the "living wage" of many other potential groups.
How would that even happen? Even if there were a large number of groups in C5s/C6s consuming every site - the respawn mechanism would mean that there exactly as many sites at the end as there were at the beginning of the process. The fact that you can roll into C5 after unoccupied C5 with large numbers of sites (and which prior to the NPC kill information being removed you could tell hadn't been touched in weeks) indicates clearly that the mechanism you describe is not in effect. The general idea is that the act of using mass exhaustion to cycle your wormhole connections causes all of the anoms to, statistically speaking, concentrate in very small areas, rather than spreading around for more casual wormhole dwellers to find and consume. It's not a black or white thing, but rather how the anoms cluster and trend, causing a smaller number of more skilled dwellers to dominate the space, since they are able to track down and consume the content more efficiently. Putting soft barriers to mass exhaustion encourages these sites to spread out more generally, and allows for more players to consume the content. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Frothgar
V0LTA Triumvirate.
94
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:48:00 -
[260] - Quote
If people hate the "Spawn distance" so much, what would people think of having "Warp distance" be substituted?
EG, to collapse a WH you would have a default "Warp To" range based on Mass and a factor of sensor strength unless.... you controlled your side of the WH. Meaning if you warped to an uncloaked gang-mate at 0 on the WH you would warp at 0, but if you warped to the WH itself at 0 you would end up the set distance off the WH.
I definitely want to address cycling a WH with entirely unsupported capitals (Which IMO is lazy and holds no risk), and the default changes do this to a degree I'm happy with, but others might not like.
If you're actually present and providing opportunities for PvP, then go for it, but being safe in jumping caps into and out of a hostile fleet in a WH where you had no intention of controlling either side always seemed a bit silly to me, and probably should get its teeth knocked out. |
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Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
106
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:53:00 -
[261] - Quote
Frothgar wrote:If people hate the "Spawn distance" so much, what would people think of having "Warp distance" be substituted?
EG, to collapse a WH you would have a default "Warp To" range based on Mass and a factor of sensor strength unless.... you controlled your side of the WH. Meaning if you warped to an uncloaked gang-mate at 0 on the WH you would warp at 0, but if you warped to the WH itself at 0 you would end up the set distance off the WH.
I definitely want to address cycling a WH with entirely unsupported capitals (Which IMO is lazy and holds no risk), and the default changes do this to a degree I'm happy with, but others might not like.
If you're actually present and providing opportunities for PvP, then go for it, but being safe in jumping caps into and out of a hostile fleet in a WH where you had no intention of controlling either side always seemed a bit silly to me, and probably should get its teeth knocked out.
You do realize the point of rage rolling is, 99% of the time, for pvp? Having it rolled with three guys while the rest of the fleet is ready in combat ships is how it's usually done...
Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
Cirillith
Bean-shidh The Nameless Alliance
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:53:00 -
[262] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).
This would be mainly my feedback to you. I totally agree with all above. I would maybe add that new mechanic denies you many tactics including collapsing hole during fight and cutting off your opponent from his reinforcements etc.
This is simple most controversial change from all posted in DEVBlog. I also think that despite what CCP Fozzie posted there: Link to threadnought
CCP Fozzie wrote:We've now released the dev blog that goes over the changes we are proposing for Hyperion in detail. Please take a look and then feel free to direct your feedback on wormhole jump spawn distance changes in this thread.
Since this thread is based on incorrect numbers I'm going to lock it and direct people to the new thread now that we have released the blog. I think ALL feedback from that threadnought should and must be taken under consideration, since numbers change is kinda irrevelant - what is the difference 30 between 20 km for capital ship... |
biz Antollare
Merchants Trade Consortium Disavowed.
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:54:00 -
[263] - Quote
This thread isn't for suggestions ... Its for feedback on the current proposed change. |
ChaseTheLasers
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
73
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:54:00 -
[264] - Quote
I'd like to know the average number of pilots in an active WH system. I know a lot of corps are the 'smaller' guys who got sick of nullsec. I'd bet the number of average pilots is quite small in a system.
The throwing distance is going to hit some of these I think then it comes to using caps. I'm interested to see how the change pans out, but it's quite a few of them together. You need to keep in mind that rolling is done because people *want* PvP most of the time.
I'd much rather see a cap jump through, be like it is now, but have a 'destabilising' factor which means it can't jump for another minute or so if anything. Smaller ships, like frigs, should be able to jump back right away like the mechanics allow now. This encourages the 'send a scout' mentality before committing larger ships. Scale it with ship size, if needed.
Heck, there are entirely different methods you could use. What about WH jumping eating into cap? Again, scale it with ship size. A frig only gets hit for 10% cap use. A capital uses 80% (or whatever) of its cap jumping. All of a sudden the capital has to replenish cap before jumping back again. If it gets attacked it's not in a great situation and could quickly give the rollers a serious issue, even with a limited number of people attacking it. A Bhaalgorn is really going to ruin a rollers day if it landed on grid while it's charging its cap. Now the rollers need to commit a fleet to save it or it dies.
Not that I'm a fan of the idea overall currently, I'm just trying to think of less bad alternatives (and probably failing). I'll see how it plays out. |
a51 himself
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exit Strategy..
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:55:00 -
[265] - Quote
gues, just a NO will be sufficient after all the coments |
MyrddinBishop
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
22
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:57:00 -
[266] - Quote
I originally took interest to this topic when the EVE-O and Reddit posts went up following the discovery on SISI. I decided that there would be no point to attempt to provide feedback until CCP rolled out the DEV Blog and the appropriate thread was started. After reading the DEV Blog and taking a look at the communities response I figured now would be as good of a time as any to weigh in.
At first glance this seems like it would be a good change. If current rolling behavior remained the same post-patch then it would result in more capital ganks and farmers removed from their carebear dreads and carrier in glorious violence. However, this is unlikely to be the case.
Farmers by their very nature are risk adverse. They would rather log off than risk handing over any killmails to potential hostiles. So in attempting to increase the risk of capital rolling, in fact this change is decreasing our chances of catching rolling forces closer to zero than it already is, as the targets would opt to log off. As it is, we do have options at our disposal to catch rolling capitals, it just requires some advance preparation.
I think capital brawls on the wormhole also need to be looked at. This is the bread and butter of high class wormhole life. This is why I as well as many of the other notable entities that live in C5 and C6 space choose to live in a hostile environment. Now dealing with the dynamic of spreading capitals upon spawning on the far side of the Wormhole sounds interesting and I am generally in support of a shakeup. The problem is the new dynamic puts the advantage square on those on the defending side of the wormhole. Currently, it is really quite difficult to take the upper hand in a brawl in another entities home. One method is close proximity Carrier placement to allow combat refitting that extends the survivability of the aggressing capitals. With long range spawns this is no longer viable and in fact a potential of spawning capitals 40km away from each other makes them so much more vulnerable. While the defending force is free to place their capitals in a manor that is completely favorable to a winning outcome. So really it shifts the advantage even more so than it already is to an entrenched Wormhole entity.
I feel like that the proposed change may become more viable if a more subtle approach was taken. One that doesn't necessarily eliminate some of the major current metas in use in Wormhole space and adds the more dynamic interaction that CCP is looking for out of this change. Personally I would be more in support of this change if the maximum Capital spawn distance is reduced from the current proposal. Really all that is needed is for the capital to spawn just out of jump range. Somewhere on the order of 7.5km would be fine with me. This would be just far enough away that under webs and bumping the capital could be held away from the wormhole until a backup gank force could arrive. It would also give the tackled Capital a short window of time to counter the tackle by giving them a chance to make the Wormhole and jump back. It would be a much more even playing field for both Attacker and Defender. It would also be close enough that the farmers would feel safe enough to attempt rolling possibly even in hostile situations. This would also put the spawns of capitals close enough together that there would actually be a chance of slowboating closer together in the middle of combat. It would still decrease the incidence of triage carriers jumping straight back after exiting a single cycle as they won't be able to move closer to the wormhole while in triage.
Reading some of the feedback of this thread I have heard a couple times of the proposal that velocity should influence spawn distance on the other side. I would be in support of a change like this. It would increase the viability of kiting fleet in Wormhole space. As it is currently the only meta is Armor Brawling fleets as nearly every fight occurs at zero on the Wormhole. With a change like this a nano fleet could MWD into a Wormhole, jump and spawn at a range that would support kiting. A change like this would add a much needed dynamic to Wormhole space. Much more so than changing the spawn distance that is currently proposed.
So in the end, this change seems to favor the bigger entities and hurt the little guy even more and decrease the likelihood of engagements with other entities in Wormhole space rather than increase them. Please review this specific change, CCP, and tweak it until it achieves the desired outcome, not move us further away from it. Thanks. |
Missy Bunnz
Team Pizza The Hole Next Door
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:57:00 -
[267] - Quote
a51 himself wrote:gues, just a NO will be sufficient after all the coments
How often does a "No" ever work?
Be realistic. They want to decrease the safety of rolling wormholes. Its going to happen. Make it have as few unintended side effects as possible. Spawn distance is not the way. Time to re-jump is. |
Sanuki Sukuuvestaa
State War Academy Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:58:00 -
[268] - Quote
Dont think this is going to change much tbh.. So everyone that jumps in first with a covert ops to scout the new connection have that scout mwd 200 above and act as a ping for the capitals coming in, followed by a webloki to nullify the intentions of forcing the cap to "be on grid" long enough for the attacker to respond. This is basically a "Im forcing you to warp twice"-mechanic, and doubtful to be someone stupid enough to slowboat back to the hole for 3,5-4,5 minutes in a dread :P
If the idea is to have the caps be vurnerable for a response, then i think a better option would be that once a cap enters a hole, the amount of mass passing throught it makes it "unstable" for a short amount of time, denying the first or any other capital to jump the hole.. Much like a global but shorter polarized-timer that is shared both ways of the jump. Maybe even make it so nobody can jump for 30 sec or whatever, denying a reinforcement-jump if said capital does get in trouble. I dont know, just a random idea, but just saying i don't think the distance will really effect anything since its so easily avoided by pings+web+warp. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
627
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 18:59:00 -
[269] - Quote
Querns wrote:This change is well-appreciated. It adds risk for attacking, as caps and other slow moving assets no longer have a get out of jail free card by spawning within range of the wormhole they just jumped through. It also slows down the rapacity at which established parties can cycle their wormholes and limits their ability to consume resources far afield of what they are able to control, allowing for more parties to enter wormhole space in general. All in all, a good change for the health of the game.
Oh my - this IS rich coming from where it does. Let's remove some of the NIMBY double-speak
Limiting the rapacity (good vocab by the way - I approve) that established parties (hmmmm who might these be) can consume resources far afield of what they are able to control, allowing more parties to enter space in general. All in all a good change for the health of the game.....
You don't say. Limiting established parties. More parties in space in general.
Huh, that's a novel concept you've got there. You might be on to something.
I'm right behind you |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2060
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:00:00 -
[270] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote: You do realize the point of rage rolling is, 99% of the time, for pvp? Having it rolled with three guys while the rest of the fleet is ready in combat ships is how it's usually done...
I thought the point was to look for weaker targets that you can face-roll or make log out. But yeah, I guess you can call that pvp.
Heavens forbid if there was any actual risk to it. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
6530
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:00:00 -
[271] - Quote
So, I've read through a good portion of this thread.
I understand what CCP is going for here, and I definitely echo Nash McAllister's thoughts on why its bad:
Nash MacAllister wrote:I believe, based on what I have read/seen, that this will be a boon for folks like ourselves with a HS static or fighting on HS wormholes in general. I for one look forward to folks jumping in and winding up 20km (or whatever) off the HS. Now their "HS games" may have very real consequences, as it should be.
My first concern is on the wh to wh connectors (all classes). Depending on the final code, anything larger than a BS becomes very risky and unfortunately it hits the smaller wh groups far harder that the larger and more well-established ones due to their inability to provide real security in the form of combat ship support while the Orca motors back to jump. While risk should be present, the way this looks like it will be implemented will, IMHO, drive the smaller groups away from w-space as they will not be able to roll for connections as easily. This limits their availability of sites to run, provide for home wh defense (rolling off aggressors), find routes to be used for basic wh logistical purposes (loot, fuel, etc.), or obtain new chains to explore.
Where I find the most potentially critical issue is in the C5/C6 connectors and the transit of cap ships. While it is fairly rare to see people fight on their static as it is, I believe the risk of having your caps end up somewhere far outside the refit range or even rep range (TBD) of your support could seriously and further limit the occurrence of such fights.
If I had to whittle this down into a main statement this is what I would say: CCP, I would suggest that the majority of us roll to look for "content", not run from it. By making it far more risky to roll wh in almost all situations, and heavily favoring large and well-equipped corporations over the smaller and less-experienced ones, you virtually guarantee a significant reduction in attempts to ever gain a foothold in w-space by new entities because it simply isn't worth the risk or effort. I believe this proposed change in any form near where it currently sits pushes the player base in the opposite direction than should be, and will have a detrimental effect on w-space as a whole.
Essentially, its an interesting concept, and while I do really like the idea of being far away from the wormhole and such like that, I feel as if this ends up being a relatively poor way to implement it. There's also the suggestion of an inverse relationship to mass, thus that lighter ships end up further away. While I feel this is interesting, I almost feel as if it is not enough. It won't really shake things up all that much.
Thus, I actually had a really interesting thought. If CCP really wants to add a weird twist to wormhole space, something you don't find anywhere else, then do this: give wormholes specific entrances and exits. Make them one way. Instead of having a B274 highsec static, you have the W-space to K-space connection, and then K-space to W-space connection. These could be A) on grid from each other, at variable distances depending on hole type, system class, and the like. B) off grid of each other, having to each be scanned down separately. Either way, the mass and the mass limitations could still be tied together. Its still one 'connection' as it were, its just that the exit point and the entrance point are displaced from each other. This effectively turns the transit into a big loop. Rage rolling can still happen quickly, just complete once circuit. However, it means when you jump into a wormhole, the place you come out on the other side will not have a wormhole there, you will have to warp to it/slowboat towards it.
This accomplishes the objective of preventing someone who jumps through a hole from instantly bugging out back through it, and adds a sort of dynamic action that doesn't have a direct comparison in K-space.
Anyway, just a suggestion. I understand what CCP is trying to do, and I appreciate their trying to do it, but I don't really think this is the best way. I look at the distance stats as related to mass on the dev-blog and just think 'this looks wrong, there should be a better way to do this'
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Admiral Douros
aWc Heavy Industries GoonSwarm
50
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:01:00 -
[272] - Quote
Edgar Strangelove wrote:I ask that you consider the first part of the devblog. Our peculiar little civilization sprung up around the ability to manipulate wormholes the way we do. The fact that we can go looking for fights, looking for PvE, or looking for good connections to k-space to do logistics has informed how we have built our entire infrastructure. The fact that we can let people be trapped in hostile systems and chainroll to get them back influences how we interact with other corporations. The fact that everyone gets dumped on top of each other within jump range is what makes the polarization timer so relevant. The ability to drastically change the environment mid-fight, either to split up a fleet or cut off reinforcements, means that everyone involved has to try to be watching everywhere all at once.
Another thing to consider is that wormhole space uses capitals differently. They're the biggest and baddest asset we can take to a fight, and they get blinged out like supercaps in k-space. Capitals jump into a fight and slam triage/siege. They can't jump in triage or siege anyway. Their support fleet will be mostly cruiser sized. This scattering spreads people out and means that whoever your fleet is jumping into has the positioning advantage from the start. Sure, it's interesting to think of calling a fight where you space people out by distance and have them tackle whoever spawns right next to them, but thinking of being the fleet jumping into that snare over and over again is much less appealing. There's a reason that you don't always jump on contact: because you don't always want to send people in piecemeal and let them get spread out without having all the information.
The change you want to make to K162 spawning will do plenty to alter the environment in favor of giving hunting players more time undetected by their prey. You can't crash a wormhole that you can't detect yet. If a K162 signature doesn't spawn until someone has transited it, then whoever is on the hunt has a lot more lead time. If nothing else, they'll always beat the occupants of the destination system to the hole.
Wormhole collapsing and spawning mechanics are what we live around. Dead time bouncing capitals off of planets to chainroll faster is boring. Doing the things we chainroll to find or enable is fun. Hiding in a POS because there's a 50 person fleet at your door and you only have 10 is boring. Slamming the door in their faces and finding something fun to do with those 10 people -- like, say, hunting for a fleet closer to our own size -- is a much better use of our time. We might risk committing capitals to speed crash even if there is a hostile fleet on the other side, or even to tempt them into jumpin. We won't do that if the capital lands 20k off the hole on the far side.
I agree with all of this. All this change does is makes crashing uncontested holes more boring, makes people less likely to use capitals to crash holes, and discourages jumping capitals through holes for PVP due to not being anywhere within refit range. These all have the same consequence: more people will get bored of WH space and leave/unsub. This change combined with the new practically-uncrashable wormholes will lead to smaller corps not leaving their POS a lot of the time. |
Mindraak
Points Mean Prizes Genesis II
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:01:00 -
[273] - Quote
ChaseTheLasers wrote:Heck, there are entirely different methods you could use. What about WH jumping eating into cap? Again, scale it with ship size. A frig only gets hit for 10% cap use. A capital uses 80% (or whatever) of its cap jumping. All of a sudden the capital has to replenish cap before jumping back again. If it gets attacked it's not in a great situation and could quickly give the rollers a serious issue, even with a limited number of people attacking it. A Bhaalgorn is really going to ruin a rollers day if it landed on grid while it's charging its cap. Now the rollers need to commit a fleet to save it or it dies.
this is the same bad idea just using a diferent method. a small corp will not commit a cap or an orca because of the enormous risk of loosing it, therefore it will be imposible for them to roll WHs and big corps will loose the ability to roll quickly enough. |
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
342
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:06:00 -
[274] - Quote
I think the "small ship" wormholes will do a lot to benefit smaller groups, particularly in low-class space, who do not have the ISK or support composition needed to field larger ships. Especially if one gets frequent connections to nullsec, where the same small ships that pass through the hole are able to take on the profession sites (data, relic, gas, etc).
How is this relevant to the mass-based spawn distance? Because a lot of people have criticized the changes as hurting smaller groups. In my experience if a group is too small to field a support fleet for rolling Orcas they will simply not roll their hole when confronted by a larger group. Hell, even a scary looking solo Sabre can make some corps freeze up and second-guess rolling the hole . With that in mind I think it's important to recognize how these smaller groups might find or generate content: by scouting and scanning more in fast, agile ships. Thus the mass-based spawn changes are great additions so long as CCP continues to provide light ship content for wormhole space, which has traditionally been very lacking but is getting better and will benefit smaller groups. I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.
Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever |
ChaseTheLasers
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
73
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:06:00 -
[275] - Quote
Mindraak wrote:ChaseTheLasers wrote:Heck, there are entirely different methods you could use. What about WH jumping eating into cap? Again, scale it with ship size. A frig only gets hit for 10% cap use. A capital uses 80% (or whatever) of its cap jumping. All of a sudden the capital has to replenish cap before jumping back again. If it gets attacked it's not in a great situation and could quickly give the rollers a serious issue, even with a limited number of people attacking it. A Bhaalgorn is really going to ruin a rollers day if it landed on grid while it's charging its cap. Now the rollers need to commit a fleet to save it or it dies. this is the same bad idea just using a diferent method. a small corp will not commit a cap or an orca because of the enormous risk of loosing it, therefore it will be imposible for them to roll WHs and big corps will loose the ability to roll quickly enough.
I don't disagree. I just hate the idea of distance if a change happens. |
Snakes-On-A-Plane
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:07:00 -
[276] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:Thus, I actually had a really interesting thought. If CCP really wants to add a weird twist to wormhole space, something you don't find anywhere else, then do this: give wormholes specific entrances and exits. Make them one way. Instead of having a B274 highsec static, you have the W-space to K-space connection, and then K-space to W-space connection. These could be A) on grid from each other, at variable distances depending on hole type, system class, and the like. B) off grid of each other, having to each be scanned down separately. Either way, the mass and the mass limitations could still be tied together. Its still one 'connection' as it were, its just that the exit point and the entrance point are displaced from each other. This effectively turns the transit into a big loop. Rage rolling can still happen quickly, just complete once circuit. However, it means when you jump into a wormhole, the place you come out on the other side will not have a wormhole there, you will have to warp to it/slowboat towards it.
This accomplishes the objective of preventing someone who jumps through a hole from instantly bugging out back through it, and adds a sort of dynamic action that doesn't have a direct comparison in K-space.
I haven't thought it through fully, and there might be lots of arguments against, but I think that this idea merits further expansion.
In essence, every invading fleet is forced to go all in. This would increase risk significantly.
Very interesting.
It still doesn't change smaller groups from pos-hugging rather than trying to combat roll. But that's not a huge deal. |
Nys Cron
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:07:00 -
[277] - Quote
ChaseTheLasers wrote:Heck, there are entirely different methods you could use. What about WH jumping eating into cap? Again, scale it with ship size. A frig only gets hit for 10% cap use. A capital uses 80% (or whatever) of its cap jumping. All of a sudden the capital has to replenish cap before jumping back again. If it gets attacked it's not in a great situation and could quickly give the rollers a serious issue, even with a limited number of people attacking it. A Bhaalgorn is really going to ruin a rollers day if it landed on grid while it's charging its cap. Now the rollers need to commit a fleet to save it or it dies. This makes it nearly impossible to bring capitals more than one jump out of your home and thus discourages PvP. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
627
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:10:00 -
[278] - Quote
Kadm wrote:Dark Armata wrote:[quote=Kadm]So let me ask: Is it really a bad thing if people stop using capitals to roll wormholes? How is forcing people to use battleships a big negative? Maybe you can't field ten players or ten battleships? Well, use five. You may get caught while waiting for the second pass, but a few minutes is acceptable. You should not be able to instantly and safely roll holes with them. It doesn't matter why you're rolling. You could be NOHO wanting a cap fight, or you could be a group of VOC alts running a three man expo system. Neither group should get risk free rolling. If you can't live without risk free rolling, you don't belong in WH space. What you don't seem to understand is that increasing the time and difficulty of ragerolling appears to be CCP's goal. Much like people are crying for nerfs to the ability to move through known space, CCP seems to believe that being able to cycle your static 50+ times in an evening may be excessive.
Yeah so about those "cries to nerf the ability to move though kspace". It stands to reason that CCP hears those cries about kspace (the most populous part of space with the most egregious means of mass distance teleportation transportation available) and decides to instead alter (or insert your own pejorative) a means of content generation employed by the smallest group of pilots in New Eden. One which has literally zero impact on the larger issue of kspace "distance mitigation" and so completely irrelevant to it. And choosing not to act on those kspace concerns in the process. All at the same time they they add additional methods via module to further reduce the cost/burden of said "distance mitigation".
I can totally see the corollary and adjacent concerns about jumping a wh in wspace and cyno'ing clear across the universe. In fact based on other calculations by Marlona (and others) that cyno trip across the Universe takes about 10 minutes. Which is about as long as it'll take a wh group to cycle two connections. Totally balanced and comparable. GJ /sarcasm
I'm right behind you |
Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
106
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:12:00 -
[279] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Dominus Alterai wrote: You do realize the point of rage rolling is, 99% of the time, for pvp? Having it rolled with three guys while the rest of the fleet is ready in combat ships is how it's usually done...
I thought the point was to look for weaker targets that you can face-roll or make log out. But yeah, I guess you can call that pvp. Heavens forbid if there was any actual risk to it.
You apparently don't live in a c5/6. I've lived in a c6 - c6 for almost 3 years. When you roll, you either run into a black hole (ie empty space) or another entities home system. As 90% of people in c6 space are pvp groups, yes. We look for ACTUAL fight where both sides lose a bunch. Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
374
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:17:00 -
[280] - Quote
This change improves the ability to gank when rolling with capitals. It doesn't add risk. Sure it adds risk to the rollers, but it removes risk from the rollees - I would say in aggregate there is little change in risk.
Any time A catches B on either side of a wh they have the option to engage. Folks can cross jump the capital and get closed in with it and fight on the roller side. You can bubblel the wh before they initiate warp and catch them off the wh. There are a lot (that's bunches and bunches) of crappy tricks you can play on each other while rolling. Heck you can cloak a light carrier in the rollers hole and close the cap in on your side. Lots of sneaky options.
With the mass based range you TAKE THE RISK OUT OF ENGAGING the roller. You just uncloak and gank him before he crawls back to the wh (or aligns to a bounce). The only arguement for this I'm seeing is that now you have to bring sufficient folks to defend your cap. That's already true. The difference is today the guys ganking the caps would have to commit and get closed in the rollers wh. Soon they can just sit back and wait and all the risk is on the roller.
So right now the risk is on the rollee side to go all in with the closer. Sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't. But at least the wh gets rolled and the 2 sides can keep looking for whatever elsewhere. With the mass range stuff all the risk will be on the roller. If a fight isn't going to happen the only difference is the wh doesn't get rolled and folks can't go on w/ their game play.
You're taking away the rollers advantage and giving it to the rollee. That's really all you're doing. Trading the ability to seek things out by collapsing wh for the ability for a cheap capital gank (which isn't pvp).
I think ragerolling sux personally. I left a c5/c5 because of it. That being said - I know a lot of guys who love to roll for content. It's odd that the game is deliberately being changed to take away or at least impede a practice that many folks enjoy. And for what? Cheap roller ganks (which aren't actual pvp)?
You say there should be more risk for rolling... by my accounts you've just taken it from the rollee (the ability to go all in and force a fight on the rollers side upon collapse and placed it on the rollers side. I just can't see the logic in it. |
|
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
6531
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:17:00 -
[281] - Quote
Mindraak wrote:ChaseTheLasers wrote:Heck, there are entirely different methods you could use. What about WH jumping eating into cap? Again, scale it with ship size. A frig only gets hit for 10% cap use. A capital uses 80% (or whatever) of its cap jumping. All of a sudden the capital has to replenish cap before jumping back again. If it gets attacked it's not in a great situation and could quickly give the rollers a serious issue, even with a limited number of people attacking it. A Bhaalgorn is really going to ruin a rollers day if it landed on grid while it's charging its cap. Now the rollers need to commit a fleet to save it or it dies. this is the same bad idea just using a diferent method. a small corp will not commit a cap or an orca because of the enormous risk of loosing it, therefore it will be imposible for them to roll WHs and big corps will loose the ability to roll quickly enough.
I think the point of contention may be this:
How easy should it actually be to roll a wormhole? It would seem to me as if the wormholes themselves were not designed with rolling in mind, they were designed for the mass limits to be spooky and mysterious and cut large fleets apart before they realized what was happening. Hole rolling is essentially a metagame phenomena, with no direct mechanical support.
There are two perspectives: A) It should be easier, since hole rolling is done primarily as a way to seek content, not to escape it. B) It should be harder, to make it more difficult for people to escape from a 'bad' situation.
Under option A, the players are the ultimate controlling force for the space. The players move their statics around, adjust the chains to suit their needs, and rage roll to force themselves into the chains of others. The wormhole is like the location changing door in Howl's Moving Castle. If this is what we want, if this is what we're going for, then you could hypothetically at that point start introducing structures that ****** with wormhole behaviour. This is the path for wormhole space that says 'the players want an environment they can manipulate the **** out of' and make the way everything behaves highly controlled, and turn it into the '0.0 that never was' I, as someone who enjoys the idea of construction, colonization, exploration, and expansion as directions for my gameplay, I can appreciate this path, but I do understand why it is definitely not everyone's cup of tea.
Under option B, the game controls the wormholes, and the players are forced to ride the twisting networks of wormhole connections, essentially at its mercy. The new, tiny, mass regening wormholes are the ultimate examples of this. In many ways completely uncontrollable, and could end up forming a 'second network' of frigate only corridors through space. If option B is what you want, then the change to spawn distance is also good, because it makes it harder and unsafer to roll a hole, taking the perspective that taking direct control of the wormhole network in that manner is Meddling In Forces Beyond Our Ken. If that's the direction you're taking it, then make all the holes mass regening, add the mass spawn thing, cut the lifetime of every hole in half, and sit back and see what we players do. Because trust me, we'd still figure out how to abuse the **** out of all of it.
|
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:18:00 -
[282] - Quote
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:Saede Riordan wrote:Thus, I actually had a really interesting thought. If CCP really wants to add a weird twist to wormhole space, something you don't find anywhere else, then do this: give wormholes specific entrances and exits. Make them one way. Instead of having a B274 highsec static, you have the W-space to K-space connection, and then K-space to W-space connection. These could be A) on grid from each other, at variable distances depending on hole type, system class, and the like. B) off grid of each other, having to each be scanned down separately. Either way, the mass and the mass limitations could still be tied together. Its still one 'connection' as it were, its just that the exit point and the entrance point are displaced from each other. This effectively turns the transit into a big loop. Rage rolling can still happen quickly, just complete once circuit. However, it means when you jump into a wormhole, the place you come out on the other side will not have a wormhole there, you will have to warp to it/slowboat towards it.
This accomplishes the objective of preventing someone who jumps through a hole from instantly bugging out back through it, and adds a sort of dynamic action that doesn't have a direct comparison in K-space.
I haven't thought it through fully, and there might be lots of arguments against, but I think that this idea merits further expansion. In essence, every invading fleet is forced to go all in. This would increase risk significantly. Very interesting. It still doesn't change smaller groups from pos-hugging rather than trying to combat roll. But that's not a huge deal.
Maybe this idea is why they're going to allow us to speed-copy twice as many bookmarks, because you'll need 4 bookmarks now for every connection, not just two. |
Frothgar
V0LTA Triumvirate.
94
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:18:00 -
[283] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Frothgar wrote:If people hate the "Spawn distance" so much, what would people think of having "Warp distance" be substituted?
EG, to collapse a WH you would have a default "Warp To" range based on Mass and a factor of sensor strength unless.... you controlled your side of the WH. Meaning if you warped to an uncloaked gang-mate at 0 on the WH you would warp at 0, but if you warped to the WH itself at 0 you would end up the set distance off the WH.
I definitely want to address cycling a WH with entirely unsupported capitals (Which IMO is lazy and holds no risk), and the default changes do this to a degree I'm happy with, but others might not like.
If you're actually present and providing opportunities for PvP, then go for it, but being safe in jumping caps into and out of a hostile fleet in a WH where you had no intention of controlling either side always seemed a bit silly to me, and probably should get its teeth knocked out. You do realize the point of rage rolling is, 99% of the time, for pvp? Having it rolled with three guys while the rest of the fleet is ready in combat ships is how it's usually done... Having done it more times than you have or likely ever will... Yes that's exactly why I floated the thought of "Warp to 0 if you control your side, but off if you don't"
You have to be close enough to Bookmark the silly thing for people to warp to, if you're the aggressor, having your prober at 0 on the WH would take an extra 5-10 seconds. If you have no intention of being present and lockable in space on either side then there should be a penalty and I agree with CCP that its a necessary thing to address.
I actually would think it would be a GOOD thing if less risk-free farming took place in WH space, myself and 3 others made ~1trillion ISK in a C5 in the first year WHs were in the game. I love the idea of ISK being worth more, and Nanoribbons being a more worthwhile thing again. I honestly think it was too easy, and the few times fights ensued we actually made friends with the people who tried to roll us. Its actually a big part of how VoC got formed, which is one of the best times I ever had playing eve ^_^
People are WAY too risk adverse in this game, you don't have to ask anyone's permission to be anywhere. |
Ned Black
Driders
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:19:00 -
[284] - Quote
Because of the way site spawn mechanics work no wormhole can in and of itself sustain any group of people that is large enough to survive the sites in the hole.
Rolling holes in WH space, especially in deep WH space is REQUIRED to be able to live there.
It does not matter if you roll to find sites or people to shoot, rolling is still REQUIRED.
I have been in fleets doing combat rolling entire evenings looking for either a good PvE hole or a hole where you can kick someone else in their teeth... this type of change would essentially kill that part... and killing that part essentially kills any reason to be in a wormhole in the first place.
Suddenly I am kind of happy that I was forced to leave WH space due to IRL issues...
To be perfectly frank this change sounds like a complete WH killer to me. |
Lemonades
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
61
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:20:00 -
[285] - Quote
This means that there will be no to less rolling and no one is going to commit caps, less epic wh fights. Way less content in W-Space. Not being able to figure out logistics. Not rolling in to others. Nothing will be happening. It will be deserted. The only good systems will be the one with high sec statics. |
Angelica Everstar
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:24:00 -
[286] - Quote
Something needed to be done!!! So thank you for addressing this issue.
I like the suggestion, minus I would like to see the 5km be reduced to 2.5km, so that it's in line with all other "activation" ranges. This would make so much more sense, and help make the game more consistent.
I would also like to see lowest masses having to travel a little longer, so that you can actually catch them in some cases. Along with that the higher masses be moved a bit closer, as people will have plenty of time to do something if they want to kill them or stop them. But if not challenge, will be able to come back faster Any typos, spelling errors and bad grammer found, are free and yours to keep Current bond : PFA05 500b / Total 825b |
Smertyukovitch
Caladari CareBear Corporation Northern Associates.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:26:00 -
[287] - Quote
Terrible idea. How am i supposed to close wormholes in my 0.0 system? With dozen of BS?
Coupled with new wormholes for frig sized ships it looks like one more step toward making life of big ships pilots worse which in opinion worse thing about eve. You need more skill points, your ship costs more and you get more and more pain you-know-where. |
Tiberius Mastarelle
Demons of EVE. Voodoo Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:28:00 -
[288] - Quote
Why don't you guys actually try creating new content, instead of just messing with mechanics every 6 weeks and calling it content? |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:29:00 -
[289] - Quote
Angelica Everstar wrote:Something needed to be done!!! So thank you for addressing this issue.
I like the suggestion, minus I would like to see the 5km be reduced to 2.5km, so that it's in line with all other "activation" ranges. This would make so much more sense, and help make the game more consistent.
I would also like to see lowest masses having to travel a little longer, so that you can actually catch them in some cases. Along with that the higher masses be moved a bit closer, as people will have plenty of time to do something if they want to kill them or stop them. But if not challenge, will be able to come back faster This is a compromise that I can deal with. The primary goal of the change, at least how I understand it, is to ensure that ships do not land in the activation range of the wormhole. Reducing the activation range and commensurately reducing the range and mass factor for the landing locations would work, if there is a desire for caps to land within remote repair and/or capacitor transfer range of each other. I'm not sure if that last part is explicitly being discouraged as the intent of the design or is just a side effect. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
106
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:32:00 -
[290] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:Because of the way site spawn mechanics work no wormhole can in and of itself sustain any group of people that is large enough to survive the sites in the hole.
Rolling holes in WH space, especially in deep WH space is REQUIRED to be able to live there.
It does not matter if you roll to find sites or people to shoot, rolling is still REQUIRED.
I have been in fleets doing combat rolling entire evenings looking for either a good PvE hole or a hole where you can kick someone else in their teeth... this type of change would essentially kill that part... and killing that part essentially kills any reason to be in a wormhole in the first place.
Suddenly I am kind of happy that I was forced to leave WH space due to IRL issues...
To be perfectly frank this change sounds like a complete WH killer to me.
Don't worry, it's not just you. Almost all of the people in this thread have given a serious dislike to this change and given reasons as to why; all of which are fairly obvious and reasonable.
Also, holy crap. 15 pages in 7 hours. That's pretty impressive seeing as this change affects the smallest population of eve. Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
|
Alundil
Isogen 5
628
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:35:00 -
[291] - Quote
Querns wrote:Janice en Marland wrote:Querns wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Querns wrote: Sure it is -- assuming, of course, that the "lore" behind WH anoms is true; namely, that completing a site causes it to immediately respawn in another wormhole of the same class or "region" (I've heard multiple versions.) Consider C6s -- most of these systems are populated and C6 dwellers typically report a high rate of respawn for anomalies. Compare this to C5s, which are more numerous, and often require intentional mass exhaustion to locate sites. This is a classic example of one behavior affecting the other; exhausting the wormhole mass allows you to consume the resources that are being concentrated in fallow systems by this overconsumption in the first place.
fortunately the resources are not so "limited" so as to have been all consumed by others. Possibly due to the fact that wormhole groups tend to operate on a smaller scale, whilst one may exhaust ones own holes resources by over consuming, I have never found a chain with no resources. In something like a c4 with static c4 that may of course be possible. Sure, but that's because you can cast your net over a much wider area with the use of mass exhaustion. Adding mineable moons would probably prevent mass exhaustion. Are you really prepared to operate multiple POS in a system solely for mining moons without using mass exhaustion to open up logistics routes for the ice you need to fuel those towers and move moongoo to market? :V (contrivance ahoy) You say this as if we don't all already deal with fuel logistics issues.......we have no outposts. We all live in POSes. Every last one of us. Bringing fuel in is a life requirement, not a nice to have.
That said, F moon mining in wspace.
I'm right behind you |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2060
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:36:00 -
[292] - Quote
Tiberius Mastarelle wrote:Why don't you guys actually try creating new content, instead of just messing with mechanics every 6 weeks and calling it content?
Players are supposed to create content. Not be risk averse to that also. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox Low-Class
6533
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:36:00 -
[293] - Quote
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:Saede Riordan wrote:Thus, I actually had a really interesting thought. If CCP really wants to add a weird twist to wormhole space, something you don't find anywhere else, then do this: give wormholes specific entrances and exits. Make them one way. Instead of having a B274 highsec static, you have the W-space to K-space connection, and then K-space to W-space connection. These could be A) on grid from each other, at variable distances depending on hole type, system class, and the like. B) off grid of each other, having to each be scanned down separately. Either way, the mass and the mass limitations could still be tied together. Its still one 'connection' as it were, its just that the exit point and the entrance point are displaced from each other. This effectively turns the transit into a big loop. Rage rolling can still happen quickly, just complete once circuit. However, it means when you jump into a wormhole, the place you come out on the other side will not have a wormhole there, you will have to warp to it/slowboat towards it.
This accomplishes the objective of preventing someone who jumps through a hole from instantly bugging out back through it, and adds a sort of dynamic action that doesn't have a direct comparison in K-space.
I haven't thought it through fully, and there might be lots of arguments against, but I think that this idea merits further expansion. In essence, every invading fleet is forced to go all in. This would increase risk significantly. Very interesting. It still doesn't change smaller groups from pos-hugging rather than trying to combat roll. But that's not a huge deal.
I've thought this out a bit more, and here's two options for how it could be implemented:
Option A) Exit point is 50-200 KM from the entrance point. Perhaps it has some sort of graphical point, or maybe it doesn't, and the other side just has to estimate. It could be interesting if the spawn in area was in one place, but spread out over about 20 km. I would say the larger/higher class holes should have an exit far enough away to warp directly back to the hole, making rolling fairly easy as long as you aren't interfered with. However, C1 holes and the like, might land you closer, or perhaps lower total mass holes land you closer. Coming out 70 km from the hole would be a bad thing for a lot of ships, though cloakies would obviously thrive in this setting.
Option B) Entrance and exit are off grid from each other, and have to be scanned down separately. This means a lot more scanning, a lot more warping, and possibly quite a bit more danger. When you go all in, there is no slowboating your fleet back to the hole, you are all in, you have committed, every time. This would make the more meek less likely to fight, or would change the manner of fights to be more kiting heavy, but it could be pretty awesome, very movement heavy.
|
Lemonades
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
62
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:37:00 -
[294] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Ned Black wrote:Because of the way site spawn mechanics work no wormhole can in and of itself sustain any group of people that is large enough to survive the sites in the hole.
Rolling holes in WH space, especially in deep WH space is REQUIRED to be able to live there.
It does not matter if you roll to find sites or people to shoot, rolling is still REQUIRED.
I have been in fleets doing combat rolling entire evenings looking for either a good PvE hole or a hole where you can kick someone else in their teeth... this type of change would essentially kill that part... and killing that part essentially kills any reason to be in a wormhole in the first place.
Suddenly I am kind of happy that I was forced to leave WH space due to IRL issues...
To be perfectly frank this change sounds like a complete WH killer to me. Don't worry, it's not just you. Almost all of the people in this thread have given a serious dislike to this change and given reasons as to why; all of which are fairly obvious and reasonable. Also, holy crap. 15 pages in 7 hours. That's pretty impressive seeing as this change affects the smallest population of eve. The smallest population, but they all seem pissed off. |
Ziirn
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:38:00 -
[295] - Quote
Scrap this idea. Reasons have been posted so many times allready. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1679
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:38:00 -
[296] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:Because of the way site spawn mechanics work no wormhole can in and of itself sustain any group of people that is large enough to survive the sites in the hole.
Rolling holes in WH space, especially in deep WH space is REQUIRED to be able to live there.
It does not matter if you roll to find sites or people to shoot, rolling is still REQUIRED.
Then you'd better start thinking about moving to a system that suits your needs. +1 |
Snakes-On-A-Plane
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:40:00 -
[297] - Quote
Arestris wrote: Your'e wrong! I think it's more like 99% of all people who read the devblog agree to the change und see absolutly no reason to post here. Such a reason have mostly the people who doesn't like the change. Thats the mainreason Topics like this looks like nearly everyone doesn't like the change.
I'd agree that most people don't post, but not always because they like the changes. Possibly because they perceive that player feedback has little effect on changes. Or any other reason. Perhaps because they don't have time to post. It's really hard to pin down the motivations of someone who remains silent.
However, threadnoughts entail high participation. And for the WH forum, this is a massive threadnought. The last one regarding this topic was capped at sub-40 pages only because of the dev blog, and only within a single day. Combining the two, we are now approaching 50 pages of feedback. You could accurately say that players are vocal about this issue more than almost any others in j-scape.
The facts suggest that the players do care. The opposite of what you are suggesting. |
Marsan
234
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:43:00 -
[298] - Quote
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:I'm not trying to flame anyone here, but I feel it is my duty to correct some erroneous perceptions, and level a howitzer at your spin control. Quote:which caused some consternation among parts of the wormhole community. That is false. Consternation was caused among all parts of the wormhole community. C1 through C6.
Really you honestly think C1 folks care? You can't push a BS or Orca through a C1 so it doesn't matter to them at all.
PS- Closing a C1 hole is more annoying than any C2-C6 hole, but this won't make it worse.
Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:43:00 -
[299] - Quote
Alundil wrote:You say this as if we don't all already deal with fuel logistics issues.......we have no outposts. We all live in POSes. Every last one of us. Bringing fuel in is a life requirement, not a nice to have.
That said, F moon mining in wspace. No -- I'm acutely aware of fuel logistics difficulties in wormhole space. I was suggesting that magnifying those difficulties by multiplying the number of starbases you have to manage would lead to additional intentional mass exhaustion, undermining the assertion that adding additional revenue streams in this manner would somehow reduce or eliminate the need for the mass exhaustion in the first place, when it clearly wouldn't on account of the additional logistics workload, and the fact that adding the revenue stream would not somehow obviate the desire to make MORE money by running WH sites.
(explaining the joke is a thing I am doing a lot today) This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
628
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:49:00 -
[300] - Quote
Querns wrote:Alundil wrote:You say this as if we don't all already deal with fuel logistics issues.......we have no outposts. We all live in POSes. Every last one of us. Bringing fuel in is a life requirement, not a nice to have.
That said, F moon mining in wspace. No -- I'm acutely aware of fuel logistics difficulties in wormhole space. I was suggesting that magnifying those difficulties by multiplying the number of starbases you have to manage would lead to additional intentional mass exhaustion, undermining the assertion that adding additional revenue streams in this manner would somehow reduce or eliminate the need for the mass exhaustion in the first place, when it clearly wouldn't on account of the additional logistics workload, and the fact that adding the revenue stream would not somehow obviate the desire to make MORE money by running WH sites. (explaining the joke is a thing I am doing a lot today) I realized the joke a page or two later but oh well what was written was written.
I'm right behind you |
|
Keith Planck
Lazerhawks
849
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:53:00 -
[301] - Quote
Whlie I think a bell curve (small and large things appear close to the hole, medium things spawn far away) would literally fix every problem and make things like skirmishing possible.
Here's some numbers for rage rolling.
Ping Interceptor: 35 seconds for ceptor to burn the ping (but can jump in when orca and battleship do) 60 seconds for dread to warp off and warp back.
Nanofiber MWD dread: 64-80 seconds depending on distance.
For rage rolling this only slows us down, it doesn't make the caps any less safe, since the system will be scouted.
As for smaller groups? Well their biggest advantage of bringing a triage archon has just been smashed to pieces. As if leaving the force-field in your cap wasn't scary enough. can i content yet? |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:54:00 -
[302] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?
The problem with your statement is the limit in which we can bring capitals to the fight. In my time in wh space which is over two years now I've seen everything from large nullsec capital escalations to super escalations on wormholes where the traditional bring more than they have theory of nullsec space provides an almost instant victory for nullsec everytime.
Even the few corporations who have and could field super fleets aren't going to counter nullsec supers which means if our caps now spawn 20 km+ off a wormhole in null they are already dead and that's a guarantee. If you want to remove my capital mass from affecting wormholes I will concede to landing off hole but until that day this is probably the dumbest argument I've seen and a clear reason why nullsec is the way it is... |
Klyith
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
100
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:54:00 -
[303] - Quote
Dammit I wrote a post and the terrible forum ate it. F it. |
Sum Olgy
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:56:00 -
[304] - Quote
Sorry for posting the same in two threads but this is still a poor idea for all of the reasons others have covered.
It's a poorly thought through mechanic that will be great for the large WH corps/alliances and bad, really bad, for the smaller ones. Or those mid sized corps who have less active periods like the AU TZ.
You just cannot polish a turd. |
Zoneras
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 19:59:00 -
[305] - Quote
These changes damage PvP just as much if not more than 'canceling' content via rolling defensively.
Ragerolling contributes a lot to danger of wormholes for "farmers" as well as assisting in the search for fights and ganks by PvP groups. To make caps spawn farther away when jumping means that a group following the current model of ragerolling, even a group that can support those caps if they are attacked, has to sit there while the cap slowly reapproaches the hole while nothing happens because the static is empty, or off timezone, or the residents are unwilling to attack a capital they fear is well defended. This makes 'ragerolling' more boring and likely that groups will be connected to wormhole chains where no PvP can be found for longer periods of time. A lot of groups are looking for capital and strategic cruiser warfare, so these mini frigate and destroyer connections do not seem like any sort of replacement.
On the other hand, groups that only farm and will roll at first sight of a PvP group (or even just log off!)--formerly emboldened by the apparent safety of rolling as it is now--will not even leave their POS to roll a connection to a PvP group with these changes.
Most irritatingly these new jump mechanics would heavily favor the defender in a large scale fight, as they can already bring as many caps as they have available to them, in a tight formation. Any attacker is limited to 3 capitals and with these mechanics, they could appear very close to being outside of rep range (easily bumped out of it), let alone ever being in refitting range, and with the disadvantages inherit in being potentially outnumbered in capitals, refitting is a must. Fights that have the randomly spawning capitals far away from each other could be manipulated to ridiculous proportions outside of the attacker's control. Too much chance, no appropriate methods of defense against this random chance, unless machariels and 100mn stabbers are supposed to be part of an armor t3 fleet to bump ships back towards one another. If you can't guarantee that you have the littlest chance of getting into refit range, then it is hard to ever justify jumping into a waiting fleet except with subcaps only, meaning that capital PvP becomes seeding capitals in someone's dead timezone to gank them with later. Not exactly conducive of great wormhole brawls lasting an hour or more.
Summarily, I would like to say that random spawn directions across large distances on a grid are bad from a PvP standpoint when both sides actually want to fight. A compromise would be to have capitals jumping together spawn near one another, even if they are off the hole. More to say, but out of space.
My post draws heavily from Blackish Person's post:
blackish person wrote: Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!! I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments. The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance): 1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh. The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad. 2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad. Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight http://www.eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24659592 if our caps were going to land out of refitting range. Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range. EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight. [...] |
Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:01:00 -
[306] - Quote
Witchway wrote:corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both? The problem with your statement is the limit in which we can bring capitals to the fight. In my time in wh space which is over two years now I've seen everything from large nullsec capital escalations to super escalations on wormholes where the traditional bring more than they have theory of nullsec space provides an almost instant victory for nullsec everytime. Even the few corporations who have and could field super fleets aren't going to counter nullsec supers which means if our caps now spawn 20 km+ off a wormhole in null they are already dead and that's a guarantee. If you want to remove my capital mass from affecting wormholes I will concede to landing off hole but until that day this is probably the dumbest argument I've seen and a clear reason why nullsec is the way it is...
I can confirm that goons have dropped multiple titans on our null incoming after we brought a triage Archon to support our 20 T3s. It's kind of needed when you're facing off against 100 dudes in hacs.... Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:03:00 -
[307] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).
Quoted for emphasis.
The great thing about wormhole living is that we can carve out our content with small groups of friends. This suggested change favors the large and will be more than crippling to the small groups. However, the suggestion in the second edit could very dramatically change fleet composition, where currently we are all but forced to fly Proteus fleets (or other close range brawlers). That could be a nice shake up to fleet doctrines, and possibly draw more people out to fight that otherwise wouldn't engage.
I get that the goal is to increase the danger of our regular activities, but looking at the big picture of your current suggestion will force smaller corporations into one of 2 choices:
- consolidate into larger entities
- leave w-space
We have said many times in many places that what we really want are MORE PEOPLE in wormholes, (and to that end more small to medium size groups of people are far better than more large entities). Find a way to entice more people into wormholes, and the danger will take care of itself.
|
Adrea Bloom
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:06:00 -
[308] - Quote
the ccp just want to close pvp on wh... the cap ships got large signature so them need to out close to hole... smaller ships longer distans it simple fiziks. |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:07:00 -
[309] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?
Well, all you have to do is jump your fleet into the wormhole the moment your scout inside sees a cap landing. Ofc then you are on the wormholers hometurf but if they come out to fight you why don-¦t you come in? At that moment the wormholers are polarized and have no way of disengaging while your fleet can jump out at any time. There is no doubt that any capital cought in your nullsec out of jumpdistance from the hole will be dead since you have the easy logistics to bring in reinforcements or your own capitals/supers.
Fairly certain many people agree that it is too easy to roll esp a c5>c5 or C5>null, but this change will make it almost impossible to close a hole with any hostiles on the other side. One scout with a web or even an anchored bubble will be enough reactiontime. And since most holes only have that one static if there is f.e. NoHo or VFK on the other side most corps will be the equivalent of stationhellcamped for 24h without any possibility for any content but shipspinning inside the forcefield.
On the other hand people in the lowends have to roll 2/3 of the same mass but with battleships while a c5 crew can do it with pretty much 3 pilots. So yes, many highendinhabitants are a bit whiny and should be forced to roll C1s for a week. Ofc the alliances on the other side of a c5 are bigger than those in lowends, just because of the higher income.
I-¦m kinda shocked how torn I am on this change. It would probably be for the best if CCP deployed the other changes, see how they play out and then do or don-¦t do this 2 months later. Maybe they even come up with something better. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:08:00 -
[310] - Quote
Adrea Bloom wrote:the ccp just want to close pvp on wh... the cap ships got large signature so them need to out close to hole... smaller ships longer distans it simple fiziks. mo fiziks, mo problems.
That's what I say. |
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Cosmic Scanner
Temnava Legion No Holes Barred
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:11:00 -
[311] - Quote
blackish person wrote:.....
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( What Blackish said. Cosmic Scanner / muu lufragga |
Joredi
Rules of Acquisition Acquisition Of Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:13:00 -
[312] - Quote
I think that a better way to approach this new mechanic, would be to have direct proportionality between the wormhole mass and the jump distance, rather than the ship mass and the jump distance; whilst also cutting down the maximum range from 20km (which I believe is a little too far) to around 12km.
In summary:
1) Initially, with the wormhole at 100% mass, jump distances would be nominal (i.e. <= 5km) Benefit: normal traffic through the wormhole would be largely unaffected.
2) As the wormhole mass decreases (for example, when rage rolling, or when a significant fleet is passing through), there is a proportional increase (or perhaps even an exponential increase) in the distance one spawns from the wormhole. Benefit: the goal of increasing risk during "wormhole-rolling" is maintained, but larger fleets and larger vessels do not have to put up with the greater jump distance the entire process; only as the wormhole is becoming low on mass.
3) Alongside this, a mechanic could be incorporated that enables you to spawn near to other ships in your fleet (40km total distance apart is not workable as a game mechanic in my opinion) Benefit: This would allow support fleets for larger ships to remain within "support" range, even if the whole fleet ends up 12km+ away from the hole.
My view is that this would be better than ship-specific jump ranges, whilst still achieving the goal of increased jump-risk.
Joredi. |
xpaulx
Codename-47
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:16:00 -
[313] - Quote
Cosmic Scanner wrote:blackish person wrote:.....
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( What Blackish said.
|
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:17:00 -
[314] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both? On the other hand people in the lowends have to roll 2/3 of the same mass but with battleships while a c5 crew can do it with pretty much 3 pilots. So yes, many highendinhabitants are a bit whiny and should be forced to roll C1s for a week.
You're assuming all the large entities haven't already been in your place and lived in the lowend. Hard Knocks wasn't born into C5 space, we started out in lowend just like yourself. We paid our dues and we've earned everything we have, you want large systems to live in then you need to make that happen for yourself. No one is forcing you to live in lowend space. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
100
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:17:00 -
[315] - Quote
xpaulx wrote:Cosmic Scanner wrote:blackish person wrote:.....
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( What Blackish said.
|
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2060
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:17:00 -
[316] - Quote
Ned Black wrote: Rolling holes in WH space, especially in deep WH space is REQUIRED to be able to live there.
It does not matter if you roll to find sites or people to shoot, rolling is still REQUIRED.
Ah the classic problem of inviting too many friends to your isk fountain. Perhaps you should evaluate who's in your corp, or where it is that you chose to live.
I hear people fighting over systems to live in creates content, unlike roaming gank gangs that are fighting over absolutely nothing. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:18:00 -
[317] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:I think the point of contention may be this:
How easy should it actually be to roll a wormhole? It would seem to me as if the wormholes themselves were not designed with rolling in mind, they were designed for the mass limits to be spooky and mysterious and cut large fleets apart before they realized what was happening. Hole rolling is essentially a metagame phenomena, with no direct mechanical support.
There are two perspectives: A) It should be easier, since hole rolling is done primarily as a way to seek content, not to escape it. B) It should be harder, to make it more difficult for people to escape from a 'bad' situation.
Under option A, the players are the ultimate controlling force for the space. The players move their statics around, adjust the chains to suit their needs, and rage roll to force themselves into the chains of others. The wormhole is like the location changing door in Howl's Moving Castle. If this is what we want, if this is what we're going for, then you could hypothetically at that point start introducing structures that ****** with wormhole behaviour. This is the path for wormhole space that says 'the players want an environment they can manipulate the **** out of' and make the way everything behaves highly controlled, and turn it into the '0.0 that never was' I, as someone who enjoys the idea of construction, colonization, exploration, and expansion as directions for my gameplay, I can appreciate this path, but I do understand why it is definitely not everyone's cup of tea.
Under option B, the game controls the wormholes, and the players are forced to ride the twisting networks of wormhole connections, essentially at its mercy. The new, tiny, mass regening wormholes are the ultimate examples of this. In many ways completely uncontrollable, and could end up forming a 'second network' of frigate only corridors through space. If option B is what you want, then the change to spawn distance is also good, because it makes it harder and unsafer to roll a hole, taking the perspective that taking direct control of the wormhole network in that manner is Meddling In Forces Beyond Our Ken. If that's the direction you're taking it, then make all the holes mass regening, add the mass spawn thing, cut the lifetime of every hole in half, and sit back and see what we players do. Because trust me, we'd still figure out how to abuse the **** out of all of it.
Howl's Moving Castle best analogy thus far in thread. |
Sherpa tsi
United System's Commonwealth
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:21:00 -
[318] - Quote
Kadm wrote:I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles.
Probably what will happen is that if a smaller group cannot roll away a larger hostile group, they will just log-off and go play something else, since they have few options for further game play. I think the proposed jump range changes will make wormhole activity too risky for many activities, and the result will be to reduce game play and content, not increase it. I hope ccp leave this aspect of wh space alone. Please ccp add more content to wh space rather than making it more difficult for those who already live there, especially smaller groups.
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Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
22
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:24:00 -
[319] - Quote
so instead of just not doing it you guys nerf it down to where its still a minor annoyance and provides no pvp advantages.....why make a change at all? |
Kadm
Catfish Gumbo Try Rerolling
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:29:00 -
[320] - Quote
Sherpa tsi wrote:Kadm wrote:I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles. Probably what will happen is that if a smaller group cannot roll away a larger hostile group, they will just log-off and go play something else, since they have few options for further game play. I think the proposed jump range changes will make wormhole activity too risky for many activities, and the result will be to reduce game play and content, not increase it. I hope ccp leave this aspect of wh space alone. Please ccp add more content to wh space rather than making it more difficult for those who already live there, especially smaller groups.
Then stront check their towers. Shoot their POCO's. If they're not fighting with you, why aren't you taking things that they care about? Why aren't you forcing fights? Are you capable of generating content yourself, or do you imagine that rolling into a new hole is just like queuing into an arena in another nameless fantasy MMO, and that you should be automatically served good fights? Go earn your good fights with some hard work. |
|
Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:30:00 -
[321] - Quote
Nope Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:32:00 -
[322] - Quote
Deeone wrote:so instead of just not doing it you guys nerf it down to where its still a minor annoyance and provides no pvp advantages.....why make a change at all?
CCP: Kings of minimal customer research and the Dukes of time wasting.
Kadm wrote:Sherpa tsi wrote:Kadm wrote:I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles. Probably what will happen is that if a smaller group cannot roll away a larger hostile group, they will just log-off and go play something else, since they have few options for further game play. I think the proposed jump range changes will make wormhole activity too risky for many activities, and the result will be to reduce game play and content, not increase it. I hope ccp leave this aspect of wh space alone. Please ccp add more content to wh space rather than making it more difficult for those who already live there, especially smaller groups. Then stront check their towers. Shoot their POCO's. If they're not fighting with you, why aren't you taking things that they care about? Why aren't you forcing fights? Are you capable of generating content yourself, or do you imagine that rolling into a new hole is just like queuing into an arena in another nameless fantasy MMO, and that you should be automatically served good fights? Go earn your good fights with some hard work.
Not sure if you realize, but grinding that stuff is boring as hell and very time consuming/stupid damgerous, even with 3 dreads on field. Doing it any faster requires seeding which, let's face it, no one will do for minimal returns. Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
Kadm
Catfish Gumbo Try Rerolling
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:38:00 -
[323] - Quote
Dominus Alterai wrote:Kadm wrote:Sherpa tsi wrote:Kadm wrote:I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles. Probably what will happen is that if a smaller group cannot roll away a larger hostile group, they will just log-off and go play something else, since they have few options for further game play. I think the proposed jump range changes will make wormhole activity too risky for many activities, and the result will be to reduce game play and content, not increase it. I hope ccp leave this aspect of wh space alone. Please ccp add more content to wh space rather than making it more difficult for those who already live there, especially smaller groups. Then stront check their towers. Shoot their POCO's. If they're not fighting with you, why aren't you taking things that they care about? Why aren't you forcing fights? Are you capable of generating content yourself, or do you imagine that rolling into a new hole is just like queuing into an arena in another nameless fantasy MMO, and that you should be automatically served good fights? Go earn your good fights with some hard work. Not sure if you realize, but grinding that stuff is boring as hell and very time consuming/stupid damgerous, even with 3 dreads on field. Doing it any faster requires seeding which, let's face it, no one will do for minimal returns.
Combat is dangerous. Antagonizing someone into attacking you may result in combat. Huh, I never realized that. Shooting POCO's is a lot less dangerous than shooting towers, so maybe you could try that. It's faster too, and generally infuriates the folks fueling towers right out of their POCO's. Towers can also be killed in a timely manner with subcaps, and if you build a reputation for actually attacking people's homes, you may find that people will defend them more readily from you. You may even find people bringing content to you by attacking your home. Embrace it, it's what you want. |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
190
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:42:00 -
[324] - Quote
Kadm wrote:
Then stront check their towers. Shoot their POCO's. If they're not fighting with you, why aren't you taking things that they care about? Why aren't you forcing fights? Are you capable of generating content yourself, or do you imagine that rolling into a new hole is just like queuing into an arena in another nameless fantasy MMO, and that you should be automatically served good fights? Go earn your good fights with some hard work.
You won't get fights out of smaller groups RF'ing their pocos/POS. You get people safelogging caps/self destructing things and days of ****** boring wait for timers no action sieges.
You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
783
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:51:00 -
[325] - Quote
Kadm wrote:I like this change and think these numbers are perfectly acceptable. This will make people much more hesitant to just try and roll away hostiles. Can't be serious.
Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
2839
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:55:00 -
[326] - Quote
You want to make it so shutting statics to get a closed system is hard, but rolling is easy? Do this: 1) Keep the spawn distance as it is now. 2) Anytime a static is closed via exceeding it's mass limit, the new static spawns WITH the K162 already in place.
With this you cannot roll your system closed. If you do, a new static will form that is already connected somewhere, you are still in an open system. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/ |
Dominus Alterai
SniggWaffe WAFFLES.
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:55:00 -
[327] - Quote
Hatshepsut IV wrote:Kadm wrote:
Then stront check their towers. Shoot their POCO's. If they're not fighting with you, why aren't you taking things that they care about? Why aren't you forcing fights? Are you capable of generating content yourself, or do you imagine that rolling into a new hole is just like queuing into an arena in another nameless fantasy MMO, and that you should be automatically served good fights? Go earn your good fights with some hard work.
You won't get fights out of smaller groups RF'ing their pocos/POS. You get people safelogging caps/self destructing things and days of ****** boring wait for timers no action sieges.
This. Every single time I've evicted a farmer from their C5, they've logged off freighters and carriers and dreads full of their stuff and just let us burn the structures to the ground. A week later, they're back where they left off no worse for wear.
Structures are cheaper than losing all of your farming caps, so most farmers just eat the minimal loss. I mean you only have to do a few cap escalations to recoup any tower/poco losses. Reducing your holes to a quivering mess since 2009. |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1243
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 20:57:00 -
[328] - Quote
This is bad...
I lived in wormholes for years. It has always been great to be able to close statics originating from C5s filled with big wormholes entities.
The risk versus reward at the time was already balanced, as jumping orcas through wormholes in a space filled with hostiles was risky enough.
Now it has become impossible! How can one travel 4 to 8 km with an orca and remain unharmed??
The only people that will remain mostly unaffected by this change and huge W-space entities. Don't do it. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
|
Rob Cobb
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 21:02:00 -
[329] - Quote
This is CCP turning every WH'er into a ******* gate camper. GG. |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 21:13:00 -
[330] - Quote
Witchway wrote:You're assuming all the large entities haven't already been in your place and lived in the lowend. Hard Knocks wasn't born into C5 space, we started out in lowend just like yourself. We paid our dues and we've earned everything we have, you want large systems to live in then you need to make that happen for yourself. No one is forcing you to live in lowend space. Nope, noone is forcing me, but also noone is forcing you into a highend. Let-¦s be honest the difference is capwarfare and larger groups. Which is possible because of the way higher (and arguably less risky but more expensive) income and needed because soloing caps is kinda hard. But you can-¦t tell me that atm it is harder to roll with capitals than without. You still get your highsecs/lowsecs/lowends connecting. If it is too risky to use a cap you can still use BS. Ofc then it will take 15 minutes instead of 2 and the risk of getting detected is higher.
The question is a) are you entiteled to easier rolling because you risk more isk and b) if this change, whilest it might be "right" it might be too bad for the overall health of highend wormholespace.
And yes, I have had my share of c5 living, I just didn-¦t like it so much because lowends have more opportunites for solo-/smallestscale gameplay than highends if the rest of your corp isn-¦t logged in with you. |
|
Rick Stumpf
Phoenix Infernis Knights Of The Singularity
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 21:29:00 -
[331] - Quote
Personally I would like it more if it was opposite. If smaller ship landed farther away. It would keep dreads and carriers in refit range like now. But I wouldn't stop rolling. But from living in a WH I enjoined rolling. But we rolled for PVE more then PVP. We would run all the sites in our static then collapse, and get a fresh one and do all the sites in that one. Rinse Repeat. From my point of view Capitals caught on WHs are screwed either way since there is no aggression timer you can jump and catch them on the other side no problem. If smaller ships had to go farther it would be easier to kill them because u could web them down before they got into jump range. But of course there is a con to having smaller ships appear farther away it would be nearly impossible to bubble a sub cap fleet if they are appearing like 10 to 15km from jump range. |
Xercodo
Xovoni Astronautical Manufacturing and Engineering
3666
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 21:31:00 -
[332] - Quote
I'm largely indifferent to these changes but it seems the overall opinion is this:
If there's more of a risk to rolling statics these things then people won't do them any more to begin with. If they aren't rolling statics they get bored, if they get bored they leave and WHs as a content area die with them.
I also see that a lot of people are either ignoring the new "tiny regen" holes or are disregarding them because no one flies frigates nor do they ever want to. In other words "All WH PVP is dead because I can't bring my shiny proteus to a fight without waiting for a WH to respawn naturally and if I have to wait that long I'm leaving". The Drake is a Lie |
Trent McRent
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 21:36:00 -
[333] - Quote
why do we need this cange?
It's not that we have an easy time in wormholes allready. Everytime we are going out to do some ratting in our static c5 we allways have to, first find a system that is empty, then check all sigs in that and then crit/collapse all wh execpt ours ofc. Then we need to have scouts and stuff on the crit wh just to be sure no one comes in. All this things takes a loong time and a lot (for our size) of people. It's atleast 1.5 hours before we even start to do some sites and whit these changes its going to take for ever to do anything if we want to have a reasonable chance of getting our pve ships out. It's still big risk everytime we take out ships out as this is not our "home" system and this is going to make it allmost impossible to earn some isk for us, as it would take us to long time to do all the preperations. So if we don't have a nice connections from the begining or if we are connected to something big and scary we are all going to just log off for the nigth and that is going to suck. It's dangerous enough for us to try to collapse the hole if we are connected to something bigger beacuse we usally don't have the people online to collaspe it instantly and they have the abillaty to just assemble a big fleet and jump us. This changes leaves us sadly whit a lot less options for content and that is not a nice place to be. We thrive now as a small corp and can have a lot of fun as it is, but if you impliment this change we migth not be able to live in our hole anymore, beacuse we are to small. |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
35
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 21:57:00 -
[334] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.
This.. It honestly makes me a bit worried if the Dev's can't look at a bad idea and think trough the consequences by them self. What is the next genius idea you will waste money and hours on? WH-stabilizers? Incarna 2.0? If this is the way the game dev's think and work, its a miracle if EVE makes it to the 15 year mark. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:03:00 -
[335] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:Witchway wrote:You're assuming all the large entities haven't already been in your place and lived in the lowend. Hard Knocks wasn't born into C5 space, we started out in lowend just like yourself. We paid our dues and we've earned everything we have, you want large systems to live in then you need to make that happen for yourself. No one is forcing you to live in lowend space. Nope, noone is forcing me, but also noone is forcing you into a highend. Let-¦s be honest the difference is capwarfare and larger groups. Which is possible because of the way higher (and arguably less risky but more expensive) income and needed because soloing caps is kinda hard. But you can-¦t tell me that atm it is harder to roll with capitals than without. You still get your highsecs/lowsecs/lowends connecting. If it is too risky to use a cap you can still use BS. Ofc then it will take 15 minutes instead of 2 and the risk of getting detected is higher. The question is a) are you entiteled to easier rolling because you risk more isk and b) if this change, whilest it might be "right" it might be too bad for the overall health of highend wormholespace. And yes, I have had my share of c5 living, I just didn-¦t like it so much because lowends have more opportunites for solo-/smallestscale gameplay than highends if the rest of your corp isn-¦t logged in with you.
It's not harder to roll C5s but there is way more inherent risk with putting 2-3B on the field rather than 150mil |
Susitna
Negative Density No Response
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:10:00 -
[336] - Quote
Please no to this change. I have seen three main reasons to roll a hole.
1. Current chain has no content for PVE or PVP 2. Hostile chain with forces beyond your ability to fight 3.Close off entry points to make it safer to do sights.
I understand a desire to make number 3 more risky. However, your changes will impact all three. Please look for away to increase farming risk that leaves us a way to find reasonable content. From my experience wormhole corps are hungry for good fights and roll to find them and not avoid them.
Additionally, these changes will make it harder for smaller corps to roll for content. Even large corps will find it difficult to roll during non peak times. If rolling for content is too risky or too painful players will just log and do something else. If this happens too often they may leave wormholes or even the game.
Again please do not do this change. Look for a way to increase risks for farming. Perhaps, make a chance for a new J entry to spawn to the farmed hole whenever a sight is cap escalated. Heck even make it a massive hole.
|
Admiral Douros
aWc Heavy Industries GoonSwarm
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:17:00 -
[337] - Quote
Susitna wrote:I understand a desire to make number 3 more risky. However, your changes will impact all three. Please look for away to increase farming risk that leaves us a way to find reasonable content.
The change to K162 mechanics already makes PVE more risky. In my opinion, they should start with that change, see how it impacts the game, and then brainstorm other changes if necessary. Introducing the K162 change, huge spawn distance after jump, and impossible-to-crash holes all at the same time is too broad a stroke. |
Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:19:00 -
[338] - Quote
Ok I propose this change for all wh. Some kind of gravity distortion prevents the use of a cloaking device within like 20km. Different distance for different classes. All ships spawn at like 5-10 km off the hole. Also maybe with the WH effect re-balance Different WH have different spawning habits. This adds a bit of unknown to the system for explores and something to consider for people that live in WH space. Or If you just want to nerf caps insta closing holes that is easy make them polarize on the first pass... |
J0HN SHEPPARD
The Icarus Expedition The Daedalus Imperium
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:33:00 -
[339] - Quote
As CEO of a small corp, I must say. This is not a good change! The Risk of rolling WH now is already pretty high, specially with a small group. Sure small Corp can change tactics from orca to Battleships but that will only make the whole process of rolling, more of a headache and ass clenching process that already is. if small ships land further, I understand but as for big ships that just makes that process way more dangerous than it already is. specially with a small group of player. EVE is already a numbers game, and I liked WSpace because numbers aren't a necessity as it is in null or low.
I can stomach all the other changes even the one's about giving us another Static in the C4 that will most likely end our seclusion but putting more of our ships in more danger than they already are in, That I cant stomach. |
Jamaica Merchant
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:35:00 -
[340] - Quote
Keep the distances, tweak the position.
Ships, relatively close to each other, jumping simultaneously or within a small interval (2-3 secs) appear relatively close to each other on the other side. |
|
Simsung Padecain
Hard Knocks Inc.
33
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:43:00 -
[341] - Quote
Ships aside, getting popped couple km away from a wormhole 100% will get you podded aswell.
Not only you lost your ship (bs, orca, carrier, dread), on top of that you lost your implants (which we cannot change in WHs), and you're in k-space presumably locked out of home system. + updating our clones aswell! :)
This change is not what wormholes need. |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
97
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:46:00 -
[342] - Quote
Dama Arishe wrote:I can get on board with most of the changes, but the mass-based spawn just isn't a good idea. This isn't the kind of attention wspace needs. It doesn't provide any new content and adds frustration to an already annoying process. Cue pos-spinning instead of ninja-rolling for small corps. (At least if you're going to make a change like that, sweeten the pot and give us T3 frigate to jump through those tiny new wormholes!)
I'm a small corp guy: never been involved with more than 30-40 players in a corp, usually a lot fewer, and for easily a year I was The Only Active Player in a C2 corp. I've also 2-manned a C3 (living out of a cloaked Orca), and farmed content from C2 to C5.
You really, really come to appreciate the Orca when it's the difference between logging off to play something else, and shutting the static when it opens to Scarybadman, Inc.
If the new situation is that the half-hour process of solo-closing a wormhole (because of polarisation timers) also includes an extra few minutes of approaching a hole while cloaked (or significantly increase d-scan presence), then, well... I don't see how or why my younger self would have gotten through the early days to actually build a corp that's got the numbers and the ISK to throw into a proper fight. |
Lord Blacksmith
Midnight Conclave
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:46:00 -
[343] - Quote
There's thirty-odd (at least) pages of feedback on this issue already. Tweaking the ranges slightly really changes nothing.
|
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
761
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:52:00 -
[344] - Quote
Lord Blacksmith wrote:There's thirty-odd (at least) pages of feedback on this issue already. Tweaking the ranges slightly really changes nothing.
Considering the only change you are likely wanting to see is a return to the status quo, I would begin preparing yourself for disappointment. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2062
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:53:00 -
[345] - Quote
Does anyone have hard stats on wormhole activity?
If the current numbers are low, and/or falling then defenders of the current system need to explain why, not attack needed changes. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
374
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:55:00 -
[346] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:na'Vi Ronuken wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote: As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release. Can you tell the dudes sitting in your building that this is a bad change and we don't want it. or better yet -- as him/her to start reading this thread to understand the public sentiment behind this. Don't worry, everything posted in this thread is being read by the relevant designers (I sit right next to Fozzie so can confirm this first hand!).
You set next to Fozzie?
I'm mailing you 2 large Haddok.
Please smack him over the head with the smaller of the two for what he did to my beloved geddon.
The second one..... get a 4 step running start and whack him across the back of the head with it. If (after he gets up) he mentions or you even think he is thinking of mentioning or implementing this mass range mess get a 5 step running start and do it again. If you run out of room or the haddok gets too mushy - let me know - I'll send another. |
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:55:00 -
[347] - Quote
How about this:
Have wormholes have an automatic effect that prevents warping within X distance based on the Wormhole size but you can still warp to 0. For example a C1 to C2 is a small hole so the wormhole only disturbs 3-6k; a larger hole C6 to C6 would have 10-12k. This would allow for caps to warp to 0, jump, jump back, and then slow boat away a bit. Leaving assets on the field for longer when one is rolling an empty hole is no big deal because your hole should already be closed. IF the hole has hostiles in it, the hostile fleet has a chance to jump in after and get some kills and then scan themselves out.
This is just an idea, I'm sure it is exploitable but seems to give more corps of different sizes the ability to generate content. |
MrSnooze
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:56:00 -
[348] - Quote
Nys Cron wrote:This will be not that big a deal for large corps as they can bring enough support to still roll safely, it will just be a bit more annoying to do. There will probably be less rolling for PvP but not that significantly.
Small corporations connected to bigger PvP entities will just not bother with trying to roll the connection but log off instead, this is already happening with lower class WHs that are more tedious to roll.
The biggest problem I have with this change is that it renders triage carriers nearly useless as the only way to have a chance of surviving a medium to large fight with triage carriers is to bring two of them and alternate siege cycles/refit. With the change these carriers will spawn up to ~40km from each other which makes these tactics impossible. Solo triage carriers usually die very quickly and are not worth bringing. Furthermore this benefits entities that are risk averse and prefer staying in their home system even more: in addition to being able to bring nearly unlimited reinforcements and numbers of capitals, they don't have to deal with the spawn distance problem while the attackers are even more limited in what and how they bring capitals than they already are.
All in all it seems like this change would just cause less PvP to happen and make PvE more annoying and risky for small groups. I think this goes against the overall goals for the proposed changes to w-space.
/edit: i like the idea to base it on velocity when jumping that was mentioned somewhere
i have to agree with Nys on this one. By forcing an attacking site to actually give your fleet over to random spawn luck you can loose the entire fight just by jumping in. i guess new approaches will develope over time but for me its a pro and con for more engagements and right now it seems that probably it will go in the opposite direction in terms of the risk is too high we will not do it. the ones who will still do it are the ones who are doing it right now. so bascially all the major w-space corps/alliances (noho, hk, etc. )
https://www.fcftw.org
Wanna join FC? Click Here |
Brutus Le'montac
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 22:57:00 -
[349] - Quote
this change is for the worst, if you dont like rolling wormholes you should make more or better balanced connections, which imo are the reason people roll a new wh.
just some numbers from oure wh:
got a lowsec static, class 3 past 2 days:
day 1 :4 nullsec openings. no low or hi, no wormhole chain. day 2: 3 nullsec openings.
why use a " static" if it barely follows it??
ofcourse we rolled the wormhole in hope for a hisec/lowsec opening so we can finally do some stuff or restock.
if you dont like that behavior, then more fix the statics or max amount of openings to hi/low/null at any time, sitting in a wh with 3 exits to nullsec is bound to be trouble.
Thought is dangerous; lack of thought, deadly!
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
374
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:05:00 -
[350] - Quote
corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
Th rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?
1. capitals don't go through gates, so??? 2. there are thousands of gates for you to play on. If you don't like the wh mechanic, then don't fight on wh (in lieu of changing wh).
The wh mechanics are probably the best pvp thing dropped in the game in years. They have led to so many outstanding pvp occurances. They aren't broken and they don't need changed. Lots and lots of guys really like rage rolling as a play style.
This change creates so much negative (2 threadnaught in 24 hrs). At some point I would I'm hoping that it might occur to folks to not change it after all. |
|
Greymist
Power Absolute Absolute Damage Inc.
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:06:00 -
[351] - Quote
This would virtually KILL the smaller WH corps. There are only a hand full of large corps who can viably rageroll under these new parameters. Smaller corps who depend on this ability to defend themselves will largely die off. WH space will become another Null sec where only a few corps/alliances control.
I would suggest a random WH mass size where the mass of a WH can radically change from 1 bil to 3 bil regardless of WH class. So in essence a C5 with a C5 connection could potentially collapse the moment a capital jumps through or it might not.
also you could make them regenerate as ships are trying to collapse the hole. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:21:00 -
[352] - Quote
Idea which suggested that all caps in a fleet should be placed closer to each other - but whole fleet still on significant distance from wh they entered the system through - should solve the problem. It will allow this cap fleet to refit and fight in full force, and will introduce additional risk simultaneously. So, what the matter? Solution have been found, actually. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3593
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:30:00 -
[353] - Quote
This idea is AWFUL and you should feel bad about it. Please refer to the ~35+ page threadnaught already here on it for reasons why. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
375
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:31:00 -
[354] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Idea which suggested that all caps in a fleet should be placed closer to each other - but whole fleet still on significant distance from wh they entered the system through - should solve the problem. It will allow this cap fleet to refit and fight in full force, and will introduce additional risk simultaneously. So, what the matter? Solution have been found, actually.
I didn't look at your other ideas, but this one solves nothing. Let me lay out the problem clearly for you.
WH mechanics are fine. They generate a lot of great fights. WH mechanics aren't broken.
This change will affect something that isn't broken so said change is bad. Any change to a great (and obviously loved) mechanic is bad. Tweaking a bad idea doesn't change the fact that it is a bad idea.
Here's an example: You work for me. I'm the boss. I show up monday and tell you that I'm getting rid of all your health benefits. You and all the other employees point out it's bad and all the bad effects. As a good and understanding boss I only cut your benefits in half. Does that make me a good and understanding boss? No. Does that make cutting your health benefits in half a good idea? No.
|
Yew Nuttah
Revenant Tactical Ineluctable.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:32:00 -
[355] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Please keep your feedback constructive and in accordance with the forum rules. While you can of course just disagree with the proposed changes, it is much more helpful if you list the reasons and explain why you disagree. The post above by Traiori is a good example of constructive feedback. Thank you!
Um actually he did give constructive feedback. I didn't read one thing that was offensive. |
Edward Sanmora
Pan Galactic Gargle Blasters Ocularis Inferno
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:39:00 -
[356] - Quote
As someone who spends most of their time in worm holes, these changes will drastically diminish of the game.
Being able to have wormhole control isn't a bad thing. For groups wanting to organize such there always the possibility of new holes opening into them. However several of these changes make that harder.
Worm hole mass reg - This makes it much hard for groups who are trying to do wormhole control because of a planned operation.
Distance from worm hole - This makes it much hard to find a new hole, just through and possibly get in a fight. It means that ships are very scattered when they come in. Also groups who are actively rolling holes have to spend far more time doing so.
Wormhole appearance - By waiting till the first person jump through you give the aggressor an unfair advantage, because they had time to form up a fleet on the hole, where the location being open into had no warning. At worse as soon as someone get within range of the then it should show up on the new location. The simple logic is if the worm hole there, it's open on both sides.
I realize that the little news things says that CCP isn't trying to punish Worm Hole people, but it seems that every proposal I've heard since I started playing a bit over a year ago has made things worse. Yet things like POS mechanics which could use some help have been completely ignored.
|
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
783
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:42:00 -
[357] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Quoted for emphasis.
The great thing about wormhole living is that we can carve out our content with small groups of friends. This suggested change favors the large and will be more than crippling to the small groups. HEY!
CCP!!!
THIS!!!!
Edward Sanmora wrote: Yet things like POS mechanics which could use some help have been completely ignored. Actually, some very good changes have happened with POS mechanics (or at least their associated structures).
The reason POS mechanics are such a hard change is that it is literally legacy code from the launch of the game.
When they start digging in there, everything starts changing in unpredictable ways. Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
Meytal
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
520
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:46:00 -
[358] - Quote
Undoubtedly one you're expecting a firestorm over. With good reason :) This is a major change to a core mechanic that defines life in W-space.
If you bothered to read the concerns from the other thread, you would know just about all of the reasons why this is bad. Remember, this is a core mechanic that defines life in W-space. It defines how we engage in the majority of our combat situations. Instead of rehashing all of the very well-worded arguments from the other thread, which you have either read or ignored, let me give an example of why it is so bad.
I've already said this is a core mechanic that defines how we engage in the majority of our combat situations. The nature of wormholes means we can hide a fleet on the other side, or in another connected system, away from prying scout eyes. Any scouts entering the hole sniffing for the trap would need to put forth extra effort, besides just checking local and warping to neighboring gates.
The closest comparison to K-space mechanics is the Cyno. You can land your fleet on that group of seemingly helpless ships, as the surrounding systems are empty, when suddenly they light a cyno. In jumps a subcap fleet double that of your own, followed by a couple of capital ships. You were caught completely off-guard, and without significant effort, there was no way for you to know this was coming.
So it is with combat in W-space. We fight on wormholes because they are a natural boundary. You can jump in, and if there is too much trouble, you can jump back and attempt to get away. This carries a danger with it, that of polarization. If you are caught when you make that return jump, you CAN'T get away again. There is no other option except to kill or be killed.
With this change applied to W-space, it would be like your carriers landing up to 20k away from the cyno beacon, and supers and titans even further, in any random direction. Combat refitting, a major strategy in capital combat, would no longer be possible. If this change were made to Cynos and bridging, would anyone bring a Revenant into combat again unless they were DEAD certain it wasn't a trap? How would the use of Supers and Titans change if such a change went into place. This would kill an aspect of gameplay PL is well known for.
Since Orcas and Freighters are also a mainstay of logistics in W-space, and will be impacted by this change, imagine by comparison what effect this would have on jump freighters as they move throughout Nullsec. With a possibility of landing 10-15k away from a station, or inside of the station if RNG is against you, would this increase conflict with harassing logistics traffic, or would it eliminate the use of such expensive ships altogether?
It's easy to see that such a change would have a drastically negative effect if applied to cynos and bridges. Unlike W-space, those are not even the primary mechanics used for encountering combat in Nullsec the way wormholes are for W-space.
So scrap the whole spawn distance change, keeping the 0 - 5km spawn distance we have now.
If you wish to slow down rage-rolling, and add risk to combat rolling holes in the face of larger groups, add one-way polarization timers instead of breaking spawn distances. When you jump into a wormhole, depending on your ship's mass, you may not jump back for a period of time; frigates would have the shortest timer, perhaps only as long as the session change cloak, while capital ships would have times in the order of minutes. This is in addition to the already-present polarization timer, perhaps extended some minor amount, to 6 or 7 minutes The one-way timer provides risk. The two-way timer provides equalization between all ships.
Unlike the spawn distances, this would add meaningful choice to rolling holes in W-space: can I defend my capital ship long enough to jump it back if I need to, or should I use a smaller ship instead? Is it worth hanging my dread's backside out in the wind to easily roll the hole, or should I use a few more people and some Orcas or battleships instead? Smaller groups could still use bigger ships in quiet systems, as they only need to wait out their jump timers, but it's no longer a matter of 10-15 seconds to collapse the hole with virtually no risk.
This would also place risk on rolling fleets comparable to a capital ship jumping to a cyno. It's fuel based, yeah, but it's also capacitor based. You can't immediately jump back to your escape cyno beacon (assuming not tackled) because you have to wait for your cap to regen. The same with jumping back into your originating wormhole system.
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BeanBagKing
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
292
|
Posted - 2014.08.06 23:48:00 -
[359] - Quote
I'll cut straight to the obvious change, tldr; here's my suggestion that would allow for rage rolling to continue, yet make it hard to control holes rolling into your system.
If I jump through the static type W237 in my home wormhole, I appear at current range (between 0 and 5km). If a new sig appears in my WH, a K162, and I jump through it, then I appear at ~mass range~, so I have to either warp off and back or burn back to my hole.
Here's my reasoning: You want us to face more risk and less hole control. We want to be able to roll out hole to find pvp. You have a point in some ways, but you are ignoring the glaring obvious point we are all trying to make. If make it an unsafe pain the the ass to roll holes, we're going to stop doing it at worst. At best it takes us twice/three times as long to roll holes, we roll less holes and find less pvp.
Changing it like this makes it so we can still roll holes just as quickly as we do now, we can still find pvp, and we can still control our static. However:
We face more danger from incoming k162's, we can't slam them closed in the face of someone rolling into us.
We can't easily extract, if we jump back because we are losing, our caps come back scattered and outside of jump range (assuming they aren't polarized to begin with).
Traps can be set. If we are out on a roam and hostiles get between us they can cloak and wait till we come back, jumping back into our home system will put us outside jump range.
I'm sure there's other scenarios more creative people can think of. My point is that it retains the status quo that we want in terms of being able to seek out pvp. Yet increases the danger we face if other people come into us or we are jumping back into our own system. In fact, this would stack the odds in favor of someone jumping into our system from their own static, they would land at 0 whereas if we took the fight to them we would be jumping a k162 and landing at range. TBH someone jumping into another persons home needs the odds stacked in their favor.
Rage rolling, and the forming up, logistics, scouts, etc that are needed is already a HUGE pain in the ass requiring hours of preparation. Do not make that process take twice as long (if it happens at all).
Let me reiterate what EVERYONE ELSE has been saying. This change, as it stands, is a terrible terrible idea. 90% of the time when we roll a hole it's to find pvp. If you make this more difficult, you reduce the pvp that occurs in wormhole space, not increase it. Look at the player feedback here, if you make this change we're going to be saying "I told you so" in 3 months.
If you want a lore reason, then knowing the WH type allows us to calibrate our jump drive engines and stabilize our mass inertia nullifiers. Whereas jumping through an unknown k162 doesn't allow us to calibrate our doohickies. >_>
I'll put replies to other changes (if I have any) in a separate post.
Edit: And to address the first note in the dev blog, this not only breaks things up and adds something new, it does so without destroying the way we find pvp, and also does it in a way that creates some variables on each side, not the same thing no matter which way you go through a WH. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3594
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:04:00 -
[360] - Quote
Let me bottom line this for you:
The health and activity levels of any WH corp is very closely linked to how often they roll their static. Rolling the static generates new content, leads to PVP and PVE alike, gives people new chains to scan out, hell, finding things to do in new chains is what you do in active WH corps!
Sure, this change doesnt actually make it impossible to roll your chain but it makes it astronomically more tedious and dangerous.
This change actively discourages small groups from rolling their holes and makes it take much longer for them to do so. Even for large groups, how many times do you think someone is going to be willing to slowboat their Moros 20km back to the WH, even with full fleet support, before they get super bored and log off? I don't know what the actuall number will be but I guarantee it will be FAR lower than the number of WHs people are willing to roll in a row currently looking for action.
This change leads to a lack of motivation to roll your chain which directly results in a general decline in activity since less fresh chains = less interaction and less opportunities. If you want to look at it in another way, it's like restricting the number of jumps a kspace gate can take per hour. The only thing it does is reduce activity.
Please, do NOT implement this change in ANY form. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
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Andre Coeurl
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
28
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:08:00 -
[361] - Quote
Most proposed changes to WH space seem reasonable, but two of them clearly go against the chance small groups will have to survive in higher class systems.
One is the concept of random frigate WHs spawns, as it will need to be balanced very carefully as we all know how powerful a large enough group of Stealth Bombers can be against anything but a capital ship... and to be honest I have experienced also an increased general rate of WH spawns lately, with two separate disturbing instances where a C248 even lasted as long as 4 days! I hope this was a bug but this whole idea must be introduced and balanced carefully.
The other is the mass/spawn distance concept. As lots of other pointed out already and thoroughly explained the reasons why, it will simply mean no smaller entity will ever try to close a WH connecting to larger entities' systems, as well as to inhabited Nullsec and Lowsec. I also want to underline that it isn't at all safe to try and roll a WH under hostile surveillance if your support fleet isn't a reasonable match for the enemy one, because it always takes a long time to align and warp caps to a WH, and if the enemy is already having a covops watching you they'll have plenty of time to warp their fleet to the WH and choose where to engage. If the carrier or dread manages to jump through and close the connection, it will be either stranded on the far end and easily killed, or the enemy will have had time enough to jump their fleet through and kill the capital on the way back. A superior support fleet will then have an easy enough time finding the local static and extracting, even more so after having killed a capital which means reducing thorougly the force factor of the already inferior fleet.
Granted, sometimes the trick has worked, but that happens either by sheer luck (enemy FC went for a ****?), or by major distraction of enemy scouts, or by managing to make the available support fleet appear bigger than it actually is.
As a Class-6 dweller I constantly experience jumping into C6 and C5s which are empty (I'd say 2 every 3), while a minority are either home of very organized and careful small alliances or they're a hub for one of the very few big PVP WH alliances. While I admire the latter as the most successful evolutionary adaptation to the hostile environment, it's become quite obvious to them that the dwindling of smaller entities residing in WH space provides them with less targets and potential fun, while so many smaller alliances obviously have had enough frustration to push them away from WH space entirely. The total fun-sum has been steadily in the negative for a while, I consider it unwise to push it even lower. |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
212
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:14:00 -
[362] - Quote
just a thought - the capitals - which you really want to be bubbled, will land outside a T2 fit hic's influence, enabling them to warp if you've got a hyena/rapier/huginn on grid. bigger ships will more likely have support for bouncing, so they can get into brawl range, but this does rather kill the kiting small ships..... maybe a better change would be preventing activation of cloak for 3s (you can fiddle with the numbers) after shedding the session cloak if you want to enable more cov-ops kills For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Snakes-On-A-Plane
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:17:00 -
[363] - Quote
Gospadin wrote:Why is inaction better? If CCPs internal data suggests subscriptions are declining, and lots of folks are giving up on w-space, or purely use it for PI on alts, then a shakeup is probably what is needed. When you are on the brink, there are several directions you can go. While it's not a good idea to stay in your precarious position, it's also a really bad idea to set off in any random direction. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
924
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:19:00 -
[364] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:na'Vi Ronuken wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote: As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release. Can you tell the dudes sitting in your building that this is a bad change and we don't want it. or better yet -- as him/her to start reading this thread to understand the public sentiment behind this. Don't worry, everything posted in this thread is being read by the relevant designers (I sit right next to Fozzie so can confirm this first hand!). You set next to Fozzie? I'm mailing you 2 large Haddok. Please smack him over the head with the smaller of the two for what he did to my beloved geddon. The second one..... get a 4 step running start and whack him across the back of the head with it. If (after he gets up) he mentions or you even think he is thinking of mentioning or implementing this mass range mess get a 5 step running start and do it again. If you run out of room or the haddok gets too mushy - let me know - I'll send another.
Come on, be fair, send him a bottle of whisky instead. I really do not feel that anyone could really go ahead with this one now all the issues have been pointed out. all the other ideas have some good in them, feedback is coming in to tweak them that will allow the goals they wish and make things better and more interesting. This idea however stands out like a rotting whale! a lemon slice and a bit of parsley as a garnish and trimming its flippers is not going to change that, and I am sure that they are wishing they had not listened to whoever suggested it. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Serith Ellecon
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:37:00 -
[365] - Quote
Inverting the formula so smaller ships spawned further away would be far more fun. Scouts could escape bubbles and crashing holes would remain a viable tactic. Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
Des Jardin
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:39:00 -
[366] - Quote
I contend that the proposed GÇ£mass-based spawn distance after wormhole jumpsGÇ¥ does not accomplish its intended purpose and detracts from other positive aspects of gameplay generated by the current wormhole mechanic, and that its implementation should be delayed.
While a need exists for CCP to address concerns that player interaction is currently being bypassed, the proposed modification affecting spawn distances after wormhole jumps will not accomplish that goal. As discussed more fully below, CCPGÇÖs institution of additional wormhole changes in the Hyperion release are expected to promote player interaction and are not perceived to counteracting effects on player content generation. Furthermore, a delay in the implementation of the spawn distance modification would allow CCP sufficient time to evaluate the actual impact of the other wormhole modifications without foreclosing its ability to make such a change in the future. However, should the spawn distance modification be implemented simultaneously with the other changes, CCP will be unable to assess accurately the impact of the other player interaction content. Accordingly, I suggest that CCP postpone the spawn distance component of the Hyperion release pending an evaluation of the impact that the other proposed changes have on the wormhole environment.
********************* The proposed change to spawn distance post-wormhole jump is GÇ£intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption.GÇ¥ CCP Fozzie states that GÇ£[w]e are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.GÇ¥
CCP is using time as a mechanic to introduce risk -- the longer it takes for assets to travel to a wormhole to close it, the more those assets are at risk of loss. Presumably, an astute wormhole pilot will spot a capital entering their C5 or C6 system and will have sufficient time to muster troops to block the closing effort.
Note that under the proposed mechanic the amount of time available to the defending pilots is not fixed. Lower mass ships spawn closer to the wormhole than larger mass capitals. Since lower mass ships are faster, they can approach and jump through the wormhole quicker. For such ships, the spawn distance modification does not afford the defending fleet any meaningful additional time. Alternatively, the slower capital ships will take significantly longer to return to the wormhole and will consequently create a de facto maximum defender fleet form-up time. Based on the current proposed distances and capital ship speeds, the GÇ£closing timerGÇ¥ is about three minutes after the capital enters the system. Given that a scout ship from the closing fleet would have jumped through the wormhole initially and that the wormhole signature will have appeared on scan, the defending crew should have more than enough time to scramble an interceptor or HIC to head to the wormhole to potentially pin down a capital ship spawning outside of jump range. Risk generated.
CCP acknowledges that time equates to risk. CCP Fozzie states that GÇ£[the spawn distance] change would indeed increase the amount of time involved in GÇÿragerolling,GÇÖ but we believe that with the correct [spawn distance] values ragerolling can still be viable.GÇ¥ Whether the distances currently proposed from a wormhole jump range is the correct balance of time vs. risk remains debatable.
However, time as a function of the increased spawn distance from the wormhole is not the only component changed as a result of the proposed modification. The absolute distance between the ships that jump through a wormhole will also increase. The ramifications of that change affect more than the time (and risk) associated with closing a wormhole -- the random generation of spawn points over a greater distance will impact the usefulness of certain ship modules. For example, if a capital ship is no longer GÇ£viableGÇ¥ to fly back to a wormhole without support, then additional pilots will be needed for the closing fleet.
CCP Fozzie states that GÇ£we believe [the spawn point distance] values would ensure a significant amount of risk in jumping capitals through wormholes while also allowing players to effectively roll wormholes using supported capitals and orcas.GÇ¥ That may be true but the risk is not shared equally. As noted above, support fleets require additional resources. For some alliances/corporations that requirement will be an inconvenience but for others it will be a bar to rolling as they will lack sufficient resources to close the wormhole. As a result, alliances/corporations with smaller numbers will suffer a disproportionate impact from the proposed change.
Furthermore, the greater separation of ships when entering a wormhole will also impact a decision whether to engage in wormhole PvP. Given that an attacking fleet can, at most, commit three capitals to a fight through a wormhole, the negative effects of potentially spreading their spawn points as far as 40 km apart would be a sufficient deterrent to jumping into a defending fleet. Essentially, each capital fleet will await the other jumping through a hole -- something that is unlikely to occur.
Thus the spawn distance modification, as proposed, (1) will increase the time to close wormholes, (2) require greater resources to do so, and (3) reduce the willingness of pilots to enter into wormhole PvP. Such a scenario is hardly a recipe for increased player interaction. "Good against remotes is one thing.-á Good against the living ... that's something else." |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
375
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:40:00 -
[367] - Quote
He doesn't need a stiff drink. All he has to do is not implement a stupid idea and he will look smart and hero-ish. What a racket. Most folks would get fired or some kind of ill documentation in their file. He'll get a small statue in his honor and a pat on the back. |
Des Jardin
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:40:00 -
[368] - Quote
On the other hand, the Hyperion release is introducing other mechanisms that will unequivocally increase player interaction (e.g., wormhole effect rebalancing, second static for C4s, more randomly spawning wormholes, and changes to K162 signature appearances). While those changes will have a negative impact for some play styles, they do not fundamentally reduce player interaction. CCP should allow those changes to go live and observe whether they generate the desired effect.
CCP Fozzie states that GÇ£the increase in random wormholes will provide a secondary outlet for players looking for fights without needing to rageroll as often.GÇ¥ Presumably this positive effect would take place regardless of the spawn distance modification. If, however, the Hyperion release also includes the spawn distance modification and player interaction decreases, CCP will have lost the ability to assess the actual impact of the other modifications.
Also, CCP is hardly foreclosed from adopting the spawn distance modification in the future. If the other Hyperion modifications do not generate the desired effect, then CCP can roll out this one and observe what happens.
At a minimum, the harm of instituting the spawn distance change outweighs the harm of delaying the change.
Accordingly, CCP should postpone its deployment of the spawn distance modification in order to avoid the above identified harms and assess the impact of the other pro-player interaction modifications before moving forward with such a modification.
"Good against remotes is one thing.-á Good against the living ... that's something else." |
Rain6637
Team Evil
15575
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:47:00 -
[369] - Quote
exactly the kind of personality that should be added to game mechanics, fozzie.
very clean change, I hope they all look like this. President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub | Rainfleet on Twitch | Twitter | Rainfleet mk.III | Imgur |
Lero D
Griffin Capsuleers Ad-Astra
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 00:57:00 -
[370] - Quote
We are a small corporation of mostly PvE people, for the simple reason that we like and trust each other, and we also want to avoid the politics and risks of the large numbers. This change will destroy pretty much our play style by making it impossible for us to roll the WH-s.
Keep in mind, we are closing the WH-s to protect ourselves, not to look for fights.
If we had the numbers to provide a proper defense on the other side of the WH for the ships we use to collapse the exits, we would be a PvP corporation not PvE/Industrial.
|
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3594
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:04:00 -
[371] - Quote
Serith Ellecon wrote:Inverting the formula so smaller ships spawned further away would be far more fun. Scouts could escape bubbles and crashing holes would remain a viable tactic. ^this is actually not a terrible idea if you really MUST mess with a perfectly functional system that works fine as is. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2062
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:04:00 -
[372] - Quote
Lero D wrote:We are a small corporation of mostly PvE people, for the simple reason that we like and trust each other, and we also want to avoid the politics and risks of the large numbers. This change will destroy pretty much our play style by making it impossible for us to roll the WH-s.
Keep in mind, we are closing the WH-s to protect ourselves, not to look for fights.
If we had the numbers to provide a proper defense on the other side of the WH for the ships we use to collapse the exits, we would be a PvP corporation not PvE/Industrial.
The Hammer is coming wormhollers, flee while you can to SOV with the other bears. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:15:00 -
[373] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Lero D wrote:We are a small corporation of mostly PvE people, for the simple reason that we like and trust each other, and we also want to avoid the politics and risks of the large numbers. This change will destroy pretty much our play style by making it impossible for us to roll the WH-s.
Keep in mind, we are closing the WH-s to protect ourselves, not to look for fights.
If we had the numbers to provide a proper defense on the other side of the WH for the ships we use to collapse the exits, we would be a PvP corporation not PvE/Industrial.
The Hammer is coming wormhollers, flee while you can to SOV with the other bears.
envious much |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:16:00 -
[374] - Quote
Querns wrote:Lord Blacksmith wrote:There's thirty-odd (at least) pages of feedback on this issue already. Tweaking the ranges slightly really changes nothing.
Considering the only change you are likely wanting to see is a return to the status quo, I would begin preparing yourself for disappointment.
ebil goons |
Indrid Hot
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:17:00 -
[375] - Quote
Des Jardin wrote:I contend that the proposed GÇ£mass-based spawn distance after wormhole jumpsGÇ¥ does not accomplish its intended purpose and detracts from other positive aspects of gameplay generated by the current wormhole mechanic, and that its implementation should be delayed.
While a need exists for CCP to address concerns that player interaction is currently being bypassed, the proposed modification affecting spawn distances after wormhole jumps will not accomplish that goal. As discussed more fully below, CCPGÇÖs institution of additional wormhole changes in the Hyperion release are expected to promote player interaction and are not perceived to counteracting effects on player content generation. Furthermore, a delay in the implementation of the spawn distance modification would allow CCP sufficient time to evaluate the actual impact of the other wormhole modifications without foreclosing its ability to make such a change in the future. However, should the spawn distance modification be implemented simultaneously with the other changes, CCP will be unable to assess accurately the impact of the other player interaction content. Accordingly, I suggest that CCP postpone the spawn distance component of the Hyperion release pending an evaluation of the impact that the other proposed changes have on the wormhole environment.
. I am of the mind that as soon as you take a ship outside the safety of your pos shield you are vulnerable. Case in point: {edit, didnt realize non corp mates cant see that, just check my loss mails for Sept of 2012} Granted at that time I didnt really know what the hell I was doing, but my case is that this was faught on a wormhole, under current mechanics. Also these proposed mechanics do tend to largely favor the larger fleets.
I propose that if CCP intends on going through with this then the implimentation of Personal Ship Maintenance Arrays should be implemented. If CCP is unwilling to sit down and sort through the speghetti code that is the current pos code so we can more effectively sort secuirty, it is difficult for us to gain enough people to counter this. In wormholes, as most people who have lived in wh's know you come to trust your group, new people have a way of screwing this over and theiving. Makes us smaller corps really have to scrutinize each applicant and reject many people that have questionable backgrounds. Implimenting a PSMA would remove alot of the theft aspect and allow us to quickly generate the numbers we need in order to have a so called "support fleet".
Either way this may make me quit wormholes. My intention was to never become a huge mega-corp, thats why I left nullsec and embraced wormholes, in the big nullsec alliances and battles it tends to make oneself feel insignificant. "Why should I log on, I'm not doing much of anything to affect change out here". Now if this change forces me to grow my corp 4 or 10 times larger so I can field prolonged backup everytime to cycle a hole.. Its just not worth it. As it stands I usually use my revelation to close wh's and thatsactually what i tend to use it for the most. this will more then likely sit in my sma now and collect dust on the offchance an eviction may be pending. |
Klarion Sythis
Literally Solo
292
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:28:00 -
[376] - Quote
For being a group of players who pride themselves on the heritage of taking a set of unknown, hard to live with mechanics and creating an entire community out of it...we sure don't seem to like figuring out new things anymore. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:29:00 -
[377] - Quote
xpaulx wrote:Cosmic Scanner wrote:blackish person wrote:.....
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( What Blackish said.
|
Erasmus Phoenix
Balls to the Walls No Response
125
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:34:00 -
[378] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote: If I jump through the static type W237 in my home wormhole, I appear at current range (between 0 and 5km). If a new sig appears in my WH, a K162, and I jump through it, then I appear at ~mass range~, so I have to either warp off and back or burn back to my hole..
Love this. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1537
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:50:00 -
[379] - Quote
More of dis exciting gameplay. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
Andronitis
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 01:51:00 -
[380] - Quote
Des Jardin wrote:
Thus the spawn distance modification, as proposed, (1) will increase the time to close wormholes, (2) require greater resources to do so, and (3) reduce the willingness of pilots to enter into wormhole PvP. Such a scenario is hardly a recipe for increased player interaction.
(continued below)
Well said Des. My biggest concern is your final point. I have no doubt that large wormhole corps/alliances will be able to adapt to increased time and resources needed to rageroll for content. However, the proposed mass change puts the entity that jumps in (assuming anyone will still be willing to take fights) at even more of a disadvantage than they currently experience.
What I currently enjoy about current wormhole capital warfare is, assuming no prior seeding of capitals, an aggressor can only field up to 3 capitals when taking a fight "on the other side." Despite the implementation of mobile depots (hard to effectively deploy one in combat) tactical refitting of capitals is a major part of w-space combat. With these proposed mass/jump changes refitting your dread or second carrier off of a friendly carrier goes right out the window.
CCP, along with my stated reason and then many well thought out responses in this thread, I ask that you consider delaying this aspect of the Hyperion release until further discussion and study of it's affects can be studied. I am not opposed to the other changes mentioned in the devblog. Tweaking wormhole effects is well in line with other re-balancing changes that have been made since CCP Rise and Fozzie joined the team. Additionally, delaying the appearance of K162s I believe will have the desired effect of creating more risk and therefore more content. Again I do not support the change to mass based spawn distance because I firmly believe that overall it will be a detrimental change to all of wormhole activity.
Thank you for your consideration. |
|
ROSSLINDEN0
Origin. Black Legion.
265
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:03:00 -
[381] - Quote
Great change, i would have made the distance greater tbh i think you should consider it as 13-17km isnt far enough a snaked nanod nag with links could get back in range fast as hell so please make the distance greater or nerf the speed of mini caps, ty. |
dephekt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:04:00 -
[382] - Quote
So glad I left w-space before this went live. I'm trying to imagine re-living the last four/five years in a high-class WH, with this incredibly uninformed change already in place, and I'm pretty sure the majority of the PvP best content I've had would have never happened, my time in w-space would have ended abruptly, and I never would have met and fought a lot of awesome people.
After all this time after adding w-space and being able to watch the activity drop out the last few years, having all the metrics, and making little to no changes along the way to get people back, I still surprised that CCP could engineer a mechanic that shows such ignorance in, and disconnection with, w-space culture and operations since their inception.
All strong arguments have been made already by people that have a clue and the patience to explain, to you, how we've played your game the last 5 years, like the NoHo/AHARM/Adhoc/SSC guys. If you put this change through, I have no doubt you'll alienate a large part of what actual community still exists outside k-space. I just wanted to add to the show of disappointment and mirror the frustration as a ex-long term WH dweller that primarily flew caps and participated in the best w-space PvP the community could make with what few tools we were initially given. |
fueron
Origin. Black Legion.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:05:00 -
[383] - Quote
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:Great change, i would have made the distance greater tbh i think you should consider it as 13-17km isnt far enough a snaked nanod nag with links could get back in range fast as hell so please make the distance greater or nerf the speed of mini caps, ty.
I concur. Nerf the speed otherwise it's unreasonable.
Good point there. |
Snakes-On-A-Plane
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:08:00 -
[384] - Quote
I'm just going to put two and two together here. I believe that WH loot has fallen in price significantly, and the purpose of this change is most likely intended to control that depreciation. It's 'very CCP' to focus on the market above all else.
Look at what they have actually said about it:
Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
We made the assumption that their goal was to increase conflict. But they never actually said that. Their only stated intention was to disrupt W-space operations.
Think about it. We have 50-60 pages of posts saying that this won't actually increase conflict, but actually reduce conflict. And yet they soldier on with the idea, even going so far as to implement it without asking anyone's opinion.
But when placed in the context of trying to disrupt loot farming, it falls neatly into place. If pursuing this goal, they don't care if people are hugging a POS for a whole day. In fact, that's ideal. The amount of conflict wouldn't actually concern them. Just so long as they aren't farming and flooding the market with the product. The frigate holes also make a lot of sense, in this context.
I feel like they are cloaking their intentions. Maybe we should be trying to provide suggestions on how to control loot farming, without ruining wormhole mechanics?
|
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:11:00 -
[385] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Lero D wrote:We are a small corporation of mostly PvE people, for the simple reason that we like and trust each other, and we also want to avoid the politics and risks of the large numbers. This change will destroy pretty much our play style by making it impossible for us to roll the WH-s.
Keep in mind, we are closing the WH-s to protect ourselves, not to look for fights.
If we had the numbers to provide a proper defense on the other side of the WH for the ships we use to collapse the exits, we would be a PvP corporation not PvE/Industrial.
The Hammer is coming wormhollers, flee while you can to SOV with the other bears. So WHs should be worse than renting in null? |
Samuel Caldara
0ne Percent. Odin's Call
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:15:00 -
[386] - Quote
One of the most frustrating aspects of wormhole living is fighting on a hisec hole. You don't have to worry about losing anything as you emerge right on the hole and you can jump back if things go poorly.
The idea where lower mass ships are kicked out further is a good one. Any situation where caps are used they can be followed back and killed. In any other fight when ships come through they can be webbed and taken down by a superior force.
I know you are trying to limit ragerolling, but in my mind ragerolling is a good thing. It creates new content, and pvp entities are more than willing to follow someone through with a small fleet and a probing ship if it means a good kill (orca anyone?)
That said - Multi-bubble hictors will still be kicked off quite a ways making them open to being killed. |
Also Rans
Sleeper Trinary Research and Intelligence Project
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:19:00 -
[387] - Quote
This will surely drive out more people out for Wh space. i will be moving out |
Levarr Burton
B0rthole
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:24:00 -
[388] - Quote
While I support most of these changes, I cannot support the mass-based spawn distance as it currently stands. It falls victim to the same fallacy that the recent jump fuel use changes had: this change assumes that making something more difficult, slower, or more expensive disproportionately affects the largest and most powerful groups, while leaving smaller groups less negatively affected and by extension giving those smaller groups a leg up on using space. In reality, the larger and more powerful groups will be able to most rapidly and readily adapt to the new circumstances, while smaller groups will be left flailing to keep up.
Traiori correctly lists several of the major effects in his post on the first page of this thread. Ultimately this change will lead to less risk being taken, and fewer confrontations.
While I would prefer having any spawn distance changes delayed until after the effects of the other changes can be seen, I do have some suggestions (some my own, some pawned from this thread).
1. Maximum potential spawn distance should be *inversely* proportional to ship mass, but the minimum potential spawn differences should be similar regardless of mass. This would allow a greater use of kiting setups on wormholes, while also maintaining some risk to cloaky/nullified fast ships, as they could still spawn in a place where immediate cloaking would be impossible. However, this would also allow the practical and sometimes impromptu use of capitals on incoming and outgoing wormholes to continue in similar fashion as current practices. I do not see this as necessarily a bad thing.
2. Jumping one way through a wormhole should initiate a polarity timer which is proportional to the mass of the ship, or a function of the mass of the ship relative to the size of the wormhole. A covops may have a polarity timer as short as the session change. A HAC-sized ship may have a polarity timer as long as the jump cloak. A dreadnought may have a 2-4 minute polarity timer. Combined with the current (not proposed) spawn ranges, this would force rage-rolling and defensive-rolling entities to attempt some measure of hole control, while still allowing rage rolling and defensive rolling to be practical tactics in content generation. This would also allow a ballsy offensive force to jump into a prepared defensive force without being nearly guaranteed that they would be unable to get their capitals into refit ranges.
3. Sort of related to #1, ships should exit a wormhole with velocity away from the mouth of the wormhole. This would, in cases of mass-use jumping and other rolling, discourage ships from holding cloak as long as possible after a wormhole jump. When combined with #2, this would maximize the amount of time which a rolling force is exposed for, without making rolling impractical. It would force pilots to balance the relative safety of the cloak, with the time needed to return to the wormhole, and the polarization timer. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
784
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:27:00 -
[389] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:The Hammer is coming wormhollers, flee while you can to SOV with the other bears. Says the professional forum alt in an NPC corp.
Klarion Sythis wrote:For being a group of players who pride themselves on the heritage of taking a set of unknown, hard to live with mechanics and creating an entire community out of it...we sure don't seem to like figuring out new things anymore. Because WH's were fine at release with the exception of bloody Black Holes? Because "change" just to change isn't necessarily "good"? Because once again, their stated goal is actually in direct opposition to their stated fix?
dephekt wrote: I just wanted to add to the show of disappointment and mirror the frustration as a ex-long term WH dweller that primarily flew caps and participated in the best w-space PvP the community could make with what few tools we were initially given. Don't think I've ever shot you before but:
o7 Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:46:00 -
[390] - Quote
Also Rans wrote:This will surely drive out more people out for Wh space. i will be moving out
Sorry to hear that bud.
But i might be unsubbing my 6 scrub-ridden accounts too. |
|
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
367
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:48:00 -
[391] - Quote
= Super bad. Thanks CCP.
Honestly, I'll probably unsub my other 2 accounts and screw around in lowsec. At least I'll have some free time for hobbies now. |
dephekt
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:52:00 -
[392] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:dephekt wrote: I just wanted to add to the show of disappointment and mirror the frustration as a ex-long term WH dweller that primarily flew caps and participated in the best w-space PvP the community could make with what few tools we were initially given. Don't think I've ever shot you before but: o7 Most of my violence was done to Russians, KILL, SSC, AHARM, NoHo, and others while in the original Narwhals, or Transmission Lost, or Disavowed and Whale Girth. I never ran into Adhoc very often and when we did they usually weren't in a position to fight at that moment, plus any big fights would have been against my cap alt.
Glad to see you guys here and shouting about this mass/distance change too. |
Senji Vuran
Revenant Tactical Ineluctable.
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 02:59:00 -
[393] - Quote
-1
Everyone has already eloquently stated the reasons, no reason to repeat them here. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
69
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 03:11:00 -
[394] - Quote
In this patch you are touching the core mechanics the WH community has evolved around GÇô the way WHs work. Any changes to this was completely unasked for by the w-community.
What made you think making rolling WH any more dangerous would be a good thing?
In the video you linked Hillmar was impressed about emergent gameplay. A sandbox will only work if players can manipulate the sand without getting hurt every time. They want to have some level of control over the situation.
This change is just not good enough GÇô Wormholes deserve better
I feel it would be much healthier for w-space if you balanced the income side. It seems ridicules to me that some lower class WH people join Incursion fleets to make ISK. This is just wrong. If these people have a pecuniary incentive to be in w-space and an interesting environment to PvP we will see lot more people in here.
I am mildly panicking at this point and I really hope corbexx can convince you to reverse this change.
|
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2063
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 03:32:00 -
[395] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Sentamon wrote:The Hammer is coming wormhollers, flee while you can to SOV with the other bears. Says the professional forum alt in an NPC corp.
Flee while you can, the rejuvenating fires of war are coming to your systems and will drive out the timid and weak and replace them with the motivated and strong.
The ISK Fountain Era is over, for you at least. Scream all you want, but in space, no one can hear you. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Scud Maximillion
Senex Legio
94
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 03:41:00 -
[396] - Quote
Great change. |
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
683
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 03:58:00 -
[397] - Quote
CCP is going to do this. You WH pilots are just wasting your breath.
CCP .. always first with the wrong stuff CSM .. CCP Shills with a vacation plan
|
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
404
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 04:04:00 -
[398] - Quote
Samuel Caldara wrote:One of the most frustrating aspects of wormhole living is fighting on a hisec hole. You don't have to worry about losing anything as you emerge right on the hole and you can jump back if things go poorly.
The idea where lower mass ships are kicked out further is a good one. Any situation where caps are used they can be followed back and killed. In any other fight when ships come through they can be webbed and taken down by a superior force.
I know you are trying to limit ragerolling, but in my mind ragerolling is a good thing. It creates new content, and pvp entities are more than willing to follow someone through with a small fleet and a probing ship if it means a good kill (orca anyone?)
That said - Multi-bubble hictors will still be kicked off quite a ways making them open to being killed.
I like this idea. Do the inverse, throw small, mobile ships further out. Heavy ships are already easy to catch on a hole because they get timered and can't warp anywhere. Small ships just play jump/cloak games until they can instant warp somewhere.
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Bad League of Legends Player. |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 04:08:00 -
[399] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Sentamon wrote:The Hammer is coming wormhollers, flee while you can to SOV with the other bears. Says the professional forum alt in an NPC corp. Flee while you can, the rejuvenating fires of war are coming to your systems and will drive out the timid and weak and replace them with the motivated and strong. The ISK Fountain Era is over, for you at least. Scream all you want, but in space, no one can hear you. No more moon goo? |
Dark Armata
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
132
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 04:37:00 -
[400] - Quote
KIller Wabbit wrote:CCP is going to do this. You WH pilots are just wasting your breath.
So we should just sit down, be quiet and take it?
What if I suggested the same mass based spawn range for ships jumping to cynos? Would null/low pilots just sit there and say quiet?
Why should jumping caps to a station be completely safe. Oh wait it isn't you say, well neither is the current method of rolling wormholes.
And to everyone that says the current method is risk-free I ask one simple question.
Have you ever destroyed a ship trying to roll a wormhole? W-Space WAS Best Space*
*Until CCP decided W-Space should be the next null.
|
|
Wedge Rancer
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 04:40:00 -
[401] - Quote
Dark Armata wrote:KIller Wabbit wrote:CCP is going to do this. You WH pilots are just wasting your breath.
So we should just sit down, be quiet and take it? What if I suggested the same mass based spawn range for ships jumping to cynos? Would null/low pilots just sit there and say quiet? Why should jumping caps to a station be completely safe. Oh wait it isn't you say, well neither is the current method of rolling wormholes. And to everyone that says the current method is risk-free I ask one simple question. Have you ever destroyed a ship trying to roll a wormhole?
100% agree, if CCP gave cynos the same treatment then I would be willing to bet there would be a second round of Jita protests. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
264
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 04:44:00 -
[402] - Quote
+ 1 for this being an awesome idea!
All it means is people will need to work better together to rage roll WHs... Carriers can still insta warp with webs the same as Ocras... If you then think about it for more than 2 seconds there is an EASY workaround for those that want to rage roll...
This also means MOAR fights with LESS rage rolling required! As people will NO LONGER be able to jump an Orca or BS into a WH from K Space without being at risk of getting blapped... And if worried get a friend to web you off the WH... Or even better get a fleet to protect you! We will happily fight you!
Awesome change CCP Fozzie! Keep up the great work. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Janice en Marland
Cross Saber Holdings
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 04:46:00 -
[403] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:+ 1 for this being an awesome idea!
All it means is people will need to work better together to rage roll WHs... Carriers can still insta warp with webs the same as Ocras... If you then think about it for more than 2 seconds there is an EASY workaround for those that want to rage roll...
This also means MOAR fights with LESS rage rolling required! As people will NO LONGER be able to jump an Orca or BS into a WH from K Space without being at risk of getting blapped... And if worried get a friend to web you off the WH... Or even better get a fleet to protect you! We will happily fight you!
Awesome change CCP Fozzie! Keep up the great work. Or not roll holes. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
264
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 04:51:00 -
[404] - Quote
Janice en Marland wrote:Andiedeath wrote:+ 1 for this being an awesome idea!
All it means is people will need to work better together to rage roll WHs... Carriers can still insta warp with webs the same as Ocras... If you then think about it for more than 2 seconds there is an EASY workaround for those that want to rage roll...
This also means MOAR fights with LESS rage rolling required! As people will NO LONGER be able to jump an Orca or BS into a WH from K Space without being at risk of getting blapped... And if worried get a friend to web you off the WH... Or even better get a fleet to protect you! We will happily fight you!
Awesome change CCP Fozzie! Keep up the great work. Or not roll holes.
All in all, the changes will reduce the need to rage roll anyway... So the peeps against this change are mostlikely carebears anyways!
The other thing to do is look at this as Bob's Devine way of reducing the number of carebears in W-Space and increase the number of believers that engage each other in righteous battle in is his glorious name! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Brutus Le'montac
123
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 04:59:00 -
[405] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Janice en Marland wrote:Andiedeath wrote:+ 1 for this being an awesome idea!
All it means is people will need to work better together to rage roll WHs... Carriers can still insta warp with webs the same as Ocras... If you then think about it for more than 2 seconds there is an EASY workaround for those that want to rage roll...
This also means MOAR fights with LESS rage rolling required! As people will NO LONGER be able to jump an Orca or BS into a WH from K Space without being at risk of getting blapped... And if worried get a friend to web you off the WH... Or even better get a fleet to protect you! We will happily fight you!
Awesome change CCP Fozzie! Keep up the great work. Or not roll holes. All in all, the changes will reduce the need to rage roll anyway... So the peeps against this change are mostlikely carebears anyways! The other thing to do is look at this as Bob's Devine way of reducing the number of carebears in W-Space and increase the number of believers that engage each other in righteous battle in is his glorious name!
whats up with the urge to shoot everything?
and this is why nullsec sucks, hisec is overcrowded and wh's are mostly empty outside some big fish. you wont like it, but you need those " carebears" to get you the guns, ships and ammo to blow sh*t up.
and wanting to shoot everything that moves or doesnt move is considerd a psychological malfunction that is dangerous to humans, animals and items... people are supposed to get locked up for it.
now, in eve wanting to shoot evrything doesnt do you good either. if you want eve to be a enjoyable game filled with other people, a living breathing envoriment then i suggest you seek counsel for your urges to shoot everything.
if you want this game to have empty wormholes, a nullsec safer then hisec ( which already is a fact somewhat) and no one else to play with or shoot at, then please go on with your sick urge and screw a game over.
your comment also come sover like a kid crying that no one plays the game his way...
Thought is dangerous; lack of thought, deadly!
|
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
193
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 05:15:00 -
[406] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:
All in all, the changes will reduce the need to rage roll anyway... So the peeps against this change are mostlikely carebears anyways...
I think you need to go back and reread the majority of the thread posts and the corps of those making them again.
It says something when a vast majority of the dedicated w-space pvp community is coming out saying this change will negatively affect w-space pvp.
If you propose a change to say, the rules of hockey and you have the teams/players/coaches all come out saying how its a bad idea....hmmmm I wonder what that says? You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Nelly Uanos
Quebec's Underdog League Quebec United Legions
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 05:18:00 -
[407] - Quote
Still meh....
Cov ops cloaky ship won't appear inside the 2km range of wormhole anymore... Too easy to cloak up...
Wayyyyyyyy much less chance of double blap dread being like 70km from each other... Your best shot is now 44km from each other if your really lucky... Still quite good for 2 blap dread but it's mostly a gamble... so i'm kinda ok with it.
Well about rolling, guess we can deal with that... Going to be a bit annoying to close but guess it will prevent bear from closing their connection in our face when we have a Drake, Ferox & Tengu on their hole.... So frightening I know...
|
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3601
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 05:29:00 -
[408] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:All in all, the changes will reduce the need to rage roll anyway... So the peeps against this change are mostlikely carebears anyways! are you high? how on earth does this change have ANY effect on the need/desire to role your WH? what it WILL do is drastically reduce the number of holes being rolled which results in less general interaction in WHs and hence less PVP, less PVE, less content.
The only thing is brings to the game is that you can now camp a HS WH a kill morons who jump through unscouted. If I wanted to gate camp, I wouldnt be living in wspace. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
101
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 05:38:00 -
[409] - Quote
So caps should be perfectly safe at all times huh. Things get a bit risky, jump back crash the WH, all safe. No risk.
There's no rule that says you MUST crash a WH with a cap. There are plenty of other options and you all know it. If it's too risky to crash with your MANY MANY MANY caps you all have, use something else.
NOTHING should be in jump range when going through a WH. EVERYTHING should require some time to return.
If it's such a tear fest for you all. CCP put a min distance of 6km and a max of 10km and be done with it. |
the Infenro
Edge of Existence
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:22:00 -
[410] - Quote
while this is better numbers than what was initial found on sisi, I still feel that is change will be detrimental to wormholes. it is very possible to prevent a cooperation from closing a wormhole linked to your system as is. all you need to do is go into their system, put up a bubble, and then have a few force's defending it. either they will pick a fight with you or pos up. either way you have prevented them from chain rolling said wormhole in an effort to avoid a fight......... |
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
22
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:24:00 -
[411] - Quote
Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:I'm just going to put two and two together here. I believe that WH loot has fallen in price significantly, and the purpose of this change is most likely intended to control that depreciation. It's 'very CCP' to focus on the market above all else. Look at what they have actually said about it: Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
We made the assumption that their goal was to increase conflict. But they never actually said that. Their only stated intention was to disrupt W-space operations. Think about it. We have 50-60 pages of posts saying that this won't actually increase conflict, but actually reduce conflict. And yet they soldier on with the idea, even going so far as to implement it without asking anyone's opinion. But when placed in the context of trying to disrupt loot farming, it falls neatly into place. If pursuing this goal, they don't care if people are hugging a POS for a whole day. In fact, that's ideal. The amount of conflict wouldn't actually concern them. Just so long as they aren't farming and flooding the market with the product. The frigate holes also make a lot of sense, in this context. I feel like they are cloaking their intentions. Maybe we should be trying to provide suggestions on how to control loot farming, without ruining wormhole mechanics?
I'd actually like to see this post answered. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it is thought provoking at the very least. |
HeXxploiT
Spatium Industries Gatekeepers Universe
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:24:00 -
[412] - Quote
Really like the sound of these changes. I think not only will newer players be encouraged to enter WH's now because they actually stand a chance of surviving but the pvp and WH gatecamps will still continue successfully. Just take standard gates where everyone spawns 12k from the gate. Gatecamps and pvp thrive there. Yes WH gatecamps will continue campers will just have to extend their bubbles a little farther.
Most excellent idea I must say. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
22
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:26:00 -
[413] - Quote
HeXxploiT wrote:Really like the sound of these changes. I think not only will newer players be encouraged to enter WH's now because they actually stand a chance of surviving but the pvp and WH gatecamps will still continue successfully. Just take standard gates where everyone spawns 12k from the gate. Gatecamps and pvp thrive there. Yes WH gatecamps will continue campers will just have to extend their bubbles a little farther.
Most excellent idea I must say.
It will be a ganker's paradise. I mean it would be if there were people still jumping through wormholes |
Robert Hart
The Post Rain Mafia
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:28:00 -
[414] - Quote
They should add a module that launches a "bomb" to collapse WHs |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:37:00 -
[415] - Quote
Lol lovin the trolls... I just can't see the negative side of this change other than you might have to work a little harder to roll wormholes.... Oh and a little more teamwork, which is what MMOs are generally about. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:43:00 -
[416] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:HeXxploiT wrote:Really like the sound of these changes. I think not only will newer players be encouraged to enter WH's now because they actually stand a chance of surviving but the pvp and WH gatecamps will still continue successfully. Just take standard gates where everyone spawns 12k from the gate. Gatecamps and pvp thrive there. Yes WH gatecamps will continue campers will just have to extend their bubbles a little farther.
Most excellent idea I must say. It will be a ganker's paradise. I mean it would be if there were people still jumping through wormholes
Nope don't agree here. It should encourage more gangs working together so there should be more fleet fights. Gankers should actually be careful as the smart groups will have a group cloaky t3s or other things waiting to explode your ship and pod.
Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Schleiferius
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:44:00 -
[417] - Quote
blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!
I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.
The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):
1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.
The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.
2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.
Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight "random KB Link where WE won :P" if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.
Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.
EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.
3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."
Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.
What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
This is what it nails down |
Stalkon Dsandor
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:48:00 -
[418] - Quote
http://clip2net.com/s/iGvcbH
|
Laurici
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
64
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:54:00 -
[419] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:I'll cut straight to the obvious change, tldr; here's my suggestion that would allow for rage rolling to continue, yet make it hard to control holes rolling into your system.
If I jump through the static type W237 in my home wormhole, I appear at current range (between 0 and 5km). If a new sig appears in my WH, a K162, and I jump through it, then I appear at ~mass range~, so I have to either warp off and back or burn back to my hole.
Here's my reasoning: You want us to face more risk and less hole control. We want to be able to roll out hole to find pvp. You have a point in some ways, but you are ignoring the glaring obvious point we are all trying to make. If make it an unsafe pain the the ass to roll holes, we're going to stop doing it at worst. At best it takes us twice/three times as long to roll holes, we roll less holes and find less pvp.
Changing it like this makes it so we can still roll holes just as quickly as we do now, we can still find pvp, and we can still control our static. However:
We face more danger from incoming k162's, we can't slam them closed in the face of someone rolling into us.
We can't easily extract, if we jump back because we are losing, our caps come back scattered and outside of jump range (assuming they aren't polarized to begin with).
Traps can be set. If we are out on a roam and hostiles get between us they can cloak and wait till we come back, jumping back into our home system will put us outside jump range.
I'm sure there's other scenarios more creative people can think of. My point is that it retains the status quo that we want in terms of being able to seek out pvp. Yet increases the danger we face if other people come into us or we are jumping back into our own system. In fact, this would stack the odds in favor of someone jumping into our system from their own static, they would land at 0 whereas if we took the fight to them we would be jumping a k162 and landing at range. TBH someone jumping into another persons home needs the odds stacked in their favor.
Rage rolling, and the forming up, logistics, scouts, etc that are needed is already a HUGE pain in the ass requiring hours of preparation. Do not make that process take twice as long (if it happens at all).
Let me reiterate what EVERYONE ELSE has been saying. This change, as it stands, is a terrible terrible idea. 90% of the time when we roll a hole it's to find pvp. If you make this more difficult, you reduce the pvp that occurs in wormhole space, not increase it. Look at the player feedback here, if you make this change we're going to be saying "I told you so" in 3 months.
If you want a lore reason, then knowing the WH type allows us to calibrate our jump drive engines and stabilize our mass inertia nullifiers. Whereas jumping through an unknown k162 doesn't allow us to calibrate our doohickies. >_>
I'll put replies to other changes (if I have any) in a separate post.
Edit: And to address the first note in the dev blog, this not only breaks things up and adds something new, it does so without destroying the way we find pvp, and also does it in a way that creates some variables on each side, not the same thing no matter which way you go through a WH.
Edit 2 real quick: I do want to say thank you CCP for looking at wormholes, it's always nice to have your gameplay style touched on, and I don't want it to seem like I'm taking that for granted.
This. So many times, this.
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 06:56:00 -
[420] - Quote
Schleiferius wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!
I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.
The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):
1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.
The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.
2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.
Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight "random KB Link where WE won :P" if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.
Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.
EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.
3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."
Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.
What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( This is what it nails down
Setup a tac 150 km off both sides of the WHs, have Rapiers either side and all 3 points are made mute as it will add about 20 (maybe a touch more) seconds to the time it takes for you to make each pass.
Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
|
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
193
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:04:00 -
[421] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote: Setup a tac 150 km off both sides of the WHs, have Rapiers either side and all 3 points are made mute as it will add about 20 (maybe a touch more) seconds to the time it takes for you to make each pass.
This is not your theory crafting perfect world daydream, nobody wants to have to do that 20 times in a row rolling for pvp. Your either willfully ignoring the reality of how this will play out or the type of person that bases every fit and fight off all V eft warrior fits then rages at his corp after the fight because they still whelped.
Bob's Wisdom! wrote: 3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."
Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.
What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :(
This can not be reposted, quoted enough. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Laurici
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
64
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:06:00 -
[422] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Setup a tac 150 km off both sides of the WHs, have Rapiers either side and all 3 points are made mute as it will add about 20 (maybe a touch more) seconds to the time it takes for you to make each pass.
EDIT: Actually it will add more chance of PVP at a wormhole as there will be the need to have support. This is is instead of pilots being afk in POS shields while a select few rage roll the wormhole to find others content...
Any mechanic who's solution is "get more pilots", is a bad mechanic. For example, see - Sov, wrecking ball and ishtars. |
John Starski
Imperial Navy Lobsters U N K N O W N
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:09:00 -
[423] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Schleiferius wrote:blackish person wrote:Sorry this is such a long post but Fozzie please read it!!
I really don't post much because i'm bad at writing but this thread needs some constructive comments.
The main issues I see with this are (in order of importance):
1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.
The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.
2. I think one of the big things that stops people from taking fights in wh space is the fact that jumping 3 caps and 20 t3s through a wormhole and closing it behind you is really scary. You are jumping ~40b (2 super carriers in value) through a hole in to someones home system where they can just cap blob you with like 10 dreads if they have the pilots, yes there are groups that can do this to you. After doing this you have no means of quickly extracting. If you win you then have to sit there rolling holes (which is now more risky) looking for an exit completely naked with no means of posing up. If you lose you are in a world of hurt. You are stuck in someone else's system potentially being combat scanned. You have to wait out your 15 min timer and log, trapped until you get a sneaky exit which could be days later. (This is if the people you are fighting are total dicks, some people are total dicks). The people you are jumping in to on the other hand can just warp back to towers if **** goes good or bad.
Ok i'm getting to the point; Having your caps jump through the wormhole and then land out of refitting range and randomly spaced out makes it even harder to fight people in their home system. There is no way we would have taken this fight "random KB Link where WE won :P" if our caps were going to land out of refitting range.
Also if your caps can land 40km apart then you only have to bump them for ~12km before they are out of archon cap transfer range. ~17 to be out of carrier rep range.
EVEN WORSE All the defenders have to do is make a warp-in for carriers/dreads 30 km away from your dread on the opposite side of the dread to your carrier. Suddenly all their caps are out of rep range of your carrier which is fine except for the fact that your sub-caps cant go close to them to do anything. To neut with a neut legion suddenly you have to be out of rep range and you WILL die. They can kill your dread and you WILL lose the fight.
3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."
Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.
What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.
TL;DR
1. This will stop us from rolling
2. This will stop us from taking fights
3. This will stop us from killing rolling caps
4. This will stop people from doing stuff in general and this will make wh space a dark empty sad place :( This is what it nails down Setup a tac 150 km off both sides of the WHs, have Rapiers either side and all 3 points are made mute as it will add about 20 (maybe a touch more) seconds to the time it takes for you to make each pass.
It'll take much more than 20 seconds. And you know... This is all about CCP. Why create new content and fix stuff they promised players to fix years ago when they can remake and complicate things that work perfectly for absolutely no good reason. It's called "procrastination" if i'm not mistaken. There're thouthands ideas on forums how to make wh more dangerous\random\exciting and this change... The only idea that i see behind this is to kick small wh corps from wormholes. |
Abydos Strong
The Tall Order
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:09:00 -
[424] - Quote
yeah, I am sure this has all been said before now in this thread...but CCP really? what are you thinking? I can see some benefits for certain things, would be easier to get ganks sitting on a HS static and waiting for curious people to stick their heads in to look for example, but the trade off will be that you make it impossible for small wh corps to effectively generate a living. if you need multiple battleships (or orcas) to close a hole, plus a reasonably sized fleet to protect said hole crashers if they are jumped, then you put rolling whs out of reach of small/mid sized corps. Like for example, say a wh corp has 12 active players with various online times, so your average crew at any given moment is 2-4 people. with the current system, they can effectively roll holes. If you make the proposed changes, then they are almost guaranteed to die if they encounter hostiles, as they cannot field a large enough fleet to defend their rolling ships, and the ships cannot flee effectively.
Also, as others have said, frequent rolling is absolutely necessary for the life of a wh corp. This plan will make the risk vs reward too high for smaller outfits, so in the end all you will have will bea handful of large wh corps and a lot of dead space for them to troll looking for targets. I begin to think that this is what CCP wants anyway.
If you must do this, which you shouldn't, then the only way to keep w space from dying that I can think of would be to increase the rewards of living in wh space. maybe dramatically increased NPC prices on blue loot or the ability to mine high end moons in w space. Something.
Please do not ruin Wh space for those of us who have no interest in low or null. W Space is a wonderful environment to play this game in, and I do not see myself continuing if it is no longer an option, as this change would seem to dictate. |
Janeway84
Its a good day to die
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:22:00 -
[425] - Quote
Some people i know even said they gonna unsub their accounts if this change goes through + the frigate size wh in its current iteration. I really hope they wont unsub |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:22:00 -
[426] - Quote
I am generalyl against the change alongside everybody in our pitiful small corp.
But guess its not really for us to make the content. Usual answer - get more people. Know what? We will just pack up and go hisec mining, or join null.
Forcing people to group up just so they are able to somehow control environment and their ability to create content, WAY TO GO!
MOAR NULL STYLE WH BLOCS WE NEED.
As I generally enjoy what CCP does, this pissed me off to no end. But who cares about the small ones? right. |
Adriana Nolen
Sama Guild
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:31:00 -
[427] - Quote
Not really a fan of this. Maybe tone down the ranges a bit. |
Qel'Droma
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:45:00 -
[428] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the changes to wormhole jump spawn distance that we proposed in our recently released dev blog. I want to remind people that the best way to have your views heard is to state your case calmly, politely and with logical reasoning. Whether you like this idea or don't like this idea, make sure to let us know exactly why you hold your opinion, with as much detail as possible. This change is just going to lead to less content and less fights. Do not want. |
Zapp Brannign
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 07:52:00 -
[429] - Quote
Quote:1. Rage rolling is much slower. Landing ~15k out of jump range in a dread and then burning back at 80m/s is a real pain. You could fit some kind of nano dread/carrier and do it a little faster (still not that fast). If one of these "rolling caps" get tackled we suddenly have a **** fit cap stuck on the other side of the wh with no way of refitting. We then have a small amount of mass left on the wh to work with when trying to save this cap. As a result this wont create a fight. Just a cheap fit carrier getting ganked... meh.
The net result of all this is people will just stop rolling. I know this is just speculation but im the kind of guy that logs in to coms and says "you guys are doing nothing, lets roll!". I will stop doing this I think because its not worth risking a cap dying to roll holes slower than I could before. If people stop chain rolling or even just rolling for a new chain to find something to do; wh space will become really bad.
This, please reconsider ccp |
Verse Askold
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:00:00 -
[430] - Quote
this forces smaller groups to become bigger, but with this change no one will want to join WH groups anymore(good old risk vs. reward calc.) and as a result smaller groups will either dissapear or move in together with other smaller groups to form bigger groups or or join bigger ones which will in the end lead to quite some bigger entities but no fights since they live in 30 out of 2498 w-space systems and will never connect to each other except someone ragerolls...oh wait...
imho it will just make w-space less populated than it already is and i cant think that this is the intention you have for your change do you? |
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:02:00 -
[431] - Quote
Verse Askold wrote:this forces smaller groups to become bigger, but with this change no one will want to join WH groups anymore(good old risk vs. reward calc.) and as a result smaller groups will either dissapear or move in together with other smaller groups to form bigger groups or or join bigger ones which will in the end lead to quite some bigger entities but no fights since they live in 30 out of 2498 j-space systems and will never connect to each other except someone ragerolls...oh wait...
imho it will just make w-space less populated than it already is and i cant think that this is the intention you have for your change do you?
I just dont get these posts... We regularly PVE in PVP fit fleets... WH space will be a PVPers dream... Lots of ISK and PVP as only PVPers and supported carebears will live there! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
xWrockx
GALAXY BARAK
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:03:00 -
[432] - Quote
Terrible idea.
Lets be frank, this change is aimed at putting more risk in living in c5-c6 holes. Everything less than that is effectively untouched. With sleeper agro change in last couple of releases, PvE already got little more risky.
Demographic of c5/c6 space is such that either there are small corps (lets say less than 10 pilots) in one space, and primary goal of yours is PvE, medium corps (10-30) adding some casual PvP in the mix, or large dominating corps (30+) which are PvP sharks in WH space.
This change will only even more secure necessity for more hands in single system for activity to be viable.
This change will significantly hinder ability to secure system for small corps to the extent that this activity will lead to abandoning of systems. Already very high risk in ISK in space / # of pilots. Very counter productive, very risky, potential breaking point. Very easy math, if risk outweighs reward (which this leads to), there is no point in living in capital PvE.
For medium corps this also reduces rewards available as fights are usually 20+ pilots on each side, and for ANY activity almost ALL pilots must be online, which is rare and dumb. If not, they will be easy pray for large corps.
Large corps on the other hand see no increase in risk, since this effects maybe # of holes that can be rolled per hour. Nothing less.
So space will be more empty than it currently is.
Myself, living in a small corp in wh, having most of PvP in nulls not in WH, this could lead of to much risk against reward and abandoning idea, since we usually have online 4+- pilots for PvE, and around 8-10 for PvP roam in WH. There is no point in 10 ppl against all other corps in their home systems.
Any dodge and change of sig's will lead to most corps POSing up and just sitting there until trouble passes somewhere else.
I don't see a point in a game mechanics where only thing that counts is # of pilots in space as answer for any action.
I sincerely hope that this is scrapped as terrible idea it is.
|
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:14:00 -
[433] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: I didn't look at your other ideas, but this one solves nothing. Let me lay out the problem clearly for you.
It's not mine, it was conveyed many times at the start of this topic by other participants.
Serendipity Lost wrote: WH mechanics are fine. They generate a lot of great fights. WH mechanics aren't broken. This change will affect something that isn't broken so said change is bad. Any change to a great (and obviously loved) mechanic is bad. Tweaking a bad idea doesn't change the fact that it is a bad idea.
I assume that devs and CSM discussed that matters and came to conclusion, that additional risk element should be introduced, what were done by binding spawn spread to the mass of ships so that big ones were placed futher from the hole after entering the system. It's not about "creating more fights" or "making it better", it's about making those activities in question - hole's rollover, capital fleet invasion to neighboring hole - more risky by nature. I also assume that decision already is a new reality.
The main concern that was reiterated many times is that with such spread capitals won't be able to refit after entering the system as they could be spawned too far away from each other. As one solution to this making them spawn still far away from the hole, but in one tight pack was proposed. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Zappity
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
1289
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:19:00 -
[434] - Quote
Why not just make it so that rolling a hole greatly increases the chance of an incoming spawning in that system? Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:40:00 -
[435] - Quote
This is a good change. Will make the rage rolling gank bit harder and give the other side of the WH the opportunity to engage from their side while the rolling party cannot insta close if the rolled target is a bit too hard
|
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:52:00 -
[436] - Quote
blackish person wrote:
3. "This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption."
Ok so you have made holes more risky to close for farmers. If people play the way they do now and ignore this change then yes lots of caps will die. If you think they will not adapt to this then you are being really naive.
What will happen is people will just scout out the chain for a few jumps and make sure there are no pvp entities around then crit it and be pretty safe for the most part. If they see anyone even remotely threatening they will just log off and do nothing. People doing nothing is really bad for wh space. This is a shift from the way it is now in that you can actually kill people rolling holes, we have our ways ;) . People think they are safer than they are and this leads to mistakes and carelessness.
Or may be, just maybe, they will become bored enough to take this somewhat greater risk? Like, really, what do you need all those billions you farm here for? To buy plexes and subscribe another 10 alts? To pimp all 10 of your capitals with officer stuff? Or may be you play game to actually have fun? Even if you can lost a couple of dreads while at it?
And if you just farming WH to pay your PvP bills somewhere else (in nulls or FW), than nothing bad happens too, you will still have your fun in nulls/FW. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
ISK Lord
Negative Density No Response
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:53:00 -
[437] - Quote
First up, I want to say that I share the same views as the overwhelming majority of our player base in No Response alliance (200+ members). We live in a C5 and enjoy rolling wormholes to find PvP.
We find this change will ruin our style of game play, and that of the other medium-large groups looking for fights. Why? I'll explain the same thing that pretty much every (angry!) w-space entity has before:
Currently people roll a C5 or C6 static wormhole about every 10 minutes looking for pew when rage rolling (this includes scouting in the system you connect to). Let's say your group rolls the wormhole for 2 hours in one day at peak activity time. That means you get access to:
120mins / 10mins = 12 wormholes
Now lets say you put this annoying change live, and we can only roll wormholes every 20 minutes:
120mins / 20mins = 6 wormholes
CCP do you really think people are going to log on to see the other side of just 6 wormholes a night? Have you ever player EVE and done rage rolling? Seriously...?
Now lets assume we have a stack of nano battleships to close wormholes with (the only likely solution to this tedious mechanic), how many larger entities can field that many ships without taking a major risk? I'm guessing <20 groups.
What you effectively do with this mechanic is make it nigh on impossible for smaller groups to roll or close wormholes without being easy meat. Yes, there will be PvP resulting from this but do you think the smaller groups will stay in W-Space?
No... they will leave!
Do you think the larger groups will stay in W-Space if you halve the rage rolling time?
No... they will leave!
I'm not sure how many different ways there are to explain the above. It is so obvious to the player base, and we're totally dismayed CCP cannot see this. This means CCP designers are either:
1). Misguided and do not understand the negative implications of this feature on the game play experience 2). Trying to force people out of W-Space and reduce subscriptions to EvE Online (obviously not true)
Personally, I like the overall rebalance CCP are looking at for W-Space (well overdue). But please let's have some new content rather than yet another rebalance.
Is there noone at CCP with any imagination???
If you don't have the employees to do it currently how about hiring some of your player base to design some new content?
*** REBALANCE DOES NOT EQUAL NEW CONTENT *** |
XOS Psymon
Three Stars Association
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:55:00 -
[438] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Random thought: drop paired micro jump units. get more than 150KM away. warp back. Not cheap, admittedly, but you guys are rich, right? Oh i see the whole point of this Patch : making MMJD industry grow!
Yeah and then, if a dictor is ready a jump from another system in the chain, bubble both sides and wait for you in your home place, what is going to happend? (According Dictor is not alone OFC), plus rolling C5/C6 WH with BS is a bit looking like "Oh look I am trying to empty that swiming pool with a glass!"
The faster you chain collapse, the higher chance you have to get a fight with an entity farming in the next system, plus most of the time they can formup pretty quick to get a fight.
EDIT : Younger corporations are "not that rich". |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:55:00 -
[439] - Quote
And also, this
Andiedeath wrote: All it means is people will need to work better together to rage roll WHs... Carriers can still insta warp with webs the same as Ocras... If you then think about it for more than 2 seconds there is an EASY workaround for those that want to rage roll...
Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Harrison Ellwood
Omicron Ceti Operations
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:57:00 -
[440] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:While you can of course just disagree with the proposed changes, it is much more helpful if you list the reasons and explain why you disagree. The post above by Traiori is a good example of constructive feedback. Thank you!
It also concisely explains why this is such a bad idea. |
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1684
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 08:59:00 -
[441] - Quote
I would still like to see capital fights in wormhole space but as an invading force will no longer be able to jump their into a hostile gang with the home advantage of their own capital support, it doesn't look like it will happen anymore.
If you decide to go balls deep and jump 3 capitals through a c5/c6, there is a good chance that all capitals will be out of refit range and will probably die fast as a result. The one thing that could help in this situation is the Mobile Deport... However, the ehp on those things is woefully inadequate as we all know.
CCP, either fix this issue or be responsible for ruining big fights in wormhole space! +1 |
Simyaldee
The Great Harmon Institute Of Technology Enemy Spotted.
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:07:00 -
[442] - Quote
Hour and a half of my life gone, ffs.
Anyway, I can't say anything that hasn't already been said by Wormholers, and I completely agree with them btw, and I really don't know much because I PvP in Lowsec and only rarely in WH Space so take my opinions with a grain of salt.
But for everyone who's wondering about HOW CCP came up with this change, especially since the Wormhole CSM candidate seems adamantly against it, but has mysteriously gone silent for some reason(squints suspiciously at NDA), look no further then corebloodbrothers statement.
corebloodbrothers wrote:Since i am no wh dweller, is it the rolling of interconnected holes that you guys are upset with, or also the connections to regular space, like null?
Cause from the null sec point as fc i hate when fights end with the jumping of caps and the level of security they do it with. If i go through a gate in null i risk everything at spawn distance, in the case of regional gates a ***** on logi with a damp on em.
The rolling of interconnected whs i dont know thr pro s and cons, can wh people share some info on if its both?
I am going to assume (until someone from CCP or CSM says differently) that this is a big reason for the change. Null Sec CSM members probably pressured for this change because they thought that being able to simply jump back through with your caps was to easy. Despite the fact that Wormholers already have a massive chain around there neck because both their options for reinforcement, and retreat, are limited by wormhole mechanics, while k-space members can call whoever, in whatever, from wherever. At the very least, I doubt they would have objected strongly when the fix came up in conversation.
I can only imagine the sheer ridiculousness of being a wormholer under this change. My Militia can already have hard times finding fights in k-space when we can send out multiple scouts to a couple new systems every few seconds via warp, and then follow them, rinse, repeat, for the duration of the fleet.
Having to find fights by rerolling to a random unknown system without any Idea whats in there seems like it would take infinitely longer. Not to mention the various other acts facilitated by rolling wormholes.
INCREASING time for pretty much ANYTHING in EVE is almost always a bad idea since it already takes significant investment to find fun where other, cheaper games take significantly less.
On the economics side, I am not sure HOW the spawning mechanics work exactly, but it would seem that from the amount of WH systems there are, and the relatively small amount of people who live in them, I'm not sure that being able to roll for sites would effect distribution enough for it to be a problem.
Not only that, but considering the comparatively large advantage held by defenders of being able to ship into whatever and bring however many people to the fight already puts the defenders at a disadvantage. Making one of the primary ships used by Wormholer suddenly 10x harder to use seems a tad ridiculous.
Does this increase risk for Wormhole caps? Yep. Should there risk be increased? Maybe. Does the increase in risk for WH caps make up for all the consequences for the WH community? The overwhelming consensus by pretty much everybody but Goons says no. Member, Fighter and FC for The Great Harmon Institute of Technology-á
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Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:14:00 -
[443] - Quote
Simyaldee wrote: Having to find fights by rerolling to a random unknown system without any Idea whats in there seems like it would take infinitely longer.
Why? Here is objection:
Andiedeath wrote: All it means is people will need to work better together to rage roll WHs... Carriers can still insta warp with webs the same as Ocras... If you then think about it for more than 2 seconds there is an EASY workaround for those that want to rage roll...
So, you create bm very close to hole you entered with, than you send you cap in insta-warp with web to this bm, and follow it, than you send it back using same method, again. If you are really a collective, and not some creepy multiboxer, which cares only about closing threatening hole ASAP and continue with his farming, than it won't be too hard for you to pull this. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:15:00 -
[444] - Quote
'Dons fireproof suit'
Idea : T3 / Battleship module
Activation/Wind Up Time : 12 Seconds Duration : 10 Seconds Range : 20km Any ships jumping through wormhole after module is active and running will land within 2k of the ship running the module.
Cap Fights : Jump a hard tanked T3 through and activate module and then jump cap ships through and they all land in a pile.
Rage Rolling Wormholes : Jump T3 through and burn back to hole and then activate module.
PVP Benefits : Extra high value ship to attack on the wormhole if you catch it in time. PVE Benefits : When rolling empty/dead WH's time taken to roll is significantly reduced
Problems : I'm sure someone will come up with some |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:16:00 -
[445] - Quote
umnikar wrote:This is a good change. Will make the rage rolling gank bit harder and give the other side of the WH the opportunity to engage from their side while the rolling party cannot insta close if the rolled target is a bit too hard
I'm not picking on your post specifically but it highlights a common misconception people have about rolling.
This notion that you are safe rolling a hole
So let me highlight 3 ways we (SSC) have caught rolling ships crashing holes including our hole
1. Scouting them out and watching. Whenever you jump into a WH you should ALWAYS scout it out first this includes getting eyes on piloted capitals in pos's. Before now I have sat and watched a piloted Moros for 3 hours while a corp mate sat in a dic on our side of the hole ready. you can guess what happens next.
2. They came from behind. Too often people who have to roll multiple WH's seem to forget that you need to scout the other WH's as well. So with good scouting from you own side you can find the hole they are trying to roll and then you can land the hic on them.
3. Going in Bhaal's Deep. You have someone in your chain you want to fight but they dont want to, so they warp a rolling team to the hole your waiting on the on the other side ready for a fight, They jump the dread then the orca, You have a golden window at this point of about 10-30 seconds to go all in and jump the fleet into their hole. If they follow then your fleet is there ready and they have to fight or die, If they refuse to jump out you can then with other members of you corp can bring in more guys to kill them on your side of the hole.
All of the above relies on one thing GOOD INTEL so suck it up and work for your kills.
Now onto the subject of this thread.
Yes this change will create more capital ganks IN THE SHORT TERM as people learn what they can push. However long term there will be less as people don't want to risk their heavy assets. This however does not make it a good change as it affects capital pvp, effort to roll the hole and find content (on top of the scouting, scanning we already spend hours doing) and logistics through WH's
In captial PvP triage carriers rely on being able to refit off each other, Dreads actually benefit from this change for dread blapping which is already a massive problem now. On top of that Capitals have a 5 minute window they are unable to move during, also can only jump through the wh so many times before it crashes. All of this make it worthless to bring carriers and bringing blap dread setups.
Rolling of holes and logistics actually are covered by the same issue. The need to have more people to essentially escort you with webs and jams and reps. All I am going to say is this, Why is there not freighters runs in low sec as this principle meets the same criteria? If someone wants to kill your ship then is going to die unless you overwhelm them with reps and force a stalemate. (unless you can bring lots of dps as well, in which case you are a stupidly massive corp)
This change is bad and CCP should feel bad as its a waste of time. There are so many other options they could of done and they decided on this rubbish. This would of been the greatest WH patch since its release but this change will kill it |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:18:00 -
[446] - Quote
umnikar wrote:This is a good change. Will make the rage rolling gank bit harder and give the other side of the WH the opportunity to engage from their side while the rolling party cannot insta close if the rolled target is a bit too hard
Surely does help smaller groups alot. They get wiped. Encourages rolling. |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:20:00 -
[447] - Quote
Querns wrote: The general idea is that the act of using mass exhaustion to cycle your wormhole connections causes all of the anoms to, statistically speaking, concentrate in very small areas, rather than spreading around for more casual wormhole dwellers to find and consume. It's not a black or white thing, but rather how the anoms cluster and trend, causing a smaller number of more skilled dwellers to dominate the space, since they are able to track down and consume the content more efficiently. Putting soft barriers to mass exhaustion encourages these sites to spread out more generally, and allows for more players to consume the content.
Empirically there is no evidence that this is occurring to any degree - not if i look at the stats of the last few months of of the statics we have rolled into. The only factor that correlates with the number of sigs/anoms is whether or not there is an active corp in that wormhole.
Most of the time we re-roll for interesting connections - not because the static we roll into doesn't have any sites. |
Heinrich Erquilenne
Foundation Cutting-Edge Mordus Angels
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:20:00 -
[448] - Quote
Looks fine, but the distance seems really small. How can 16km make a difference for capital ships? The real issue is that ragerolling exists in the first place. It makes it way too convenient for groups to close wormholes until they get something close to their home bases while cutting inhabitants or explorers from support very quickly. This should only be achieveable by a very large force (because i'm fine with larger groups stomping smaller ones).
Currently ratting in wormhole space with big ships is suicidal to say the least. That's why WH space is dead. Now increasing the risks of player disruption for small groups trying to exploit the mass limit mechanics at their own advantage is a step in the right direction but it should be seen as a first step. It won't suddently make wormhole space useful space. Wormhome cynos would add some tools for people willing to deny kills to people looking for pvp to use this space to do their own stuff. If there's no reliable way to deny kills to people doing pvp then ratting is stupid and should be considered suicide, and without interesting pve content we all know that pvp is hard to find. Both groups (pve and pvp) should have a fair chance to get what they want, and IMO the devs should go further and tweak more stuff. |
Tuscor
United System's Commonwealth
78
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:27:00 -
[449] - Quote
I think all the proposed changes are brilliant, except the one where ships spawn off the wormhole at long range. Maybe if you brought it back down so that carriers / dreads were only 10k max off the hole that would be ok.
In fact, that would be good. Adapt or die, people. Man up and enjoy the added complexity. Stop being whiners.
Other changes are fantastic, I love the long lasting frigate wormhole idea. Very cool and great for sneaky shennanigans.
|
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:32:00 -
[450] - Quote
Heinrich Erquilenne wrote:Looks fine, but the distance seems really small. How can 16km make a difference for capital ships? The real issue is that ragerolling exists in the first place. It makes it way too convenient for groups to close wormholes until they get something close to their home bases while cutting inhabitants or explorers from support very quickly. This should only be achieveable by a very large force (because i'm fine with larger groups stomping smaller ones).
Currently ratting in wormhole space with big ships is suicidal to say the least. That's why WH space is dead. Now increasing the risks of player disruption for small groups trying to exploit the mass limit mechanics at their own advantage is a step in the right direction but it should be seen as a first step. It won't suddently make wormhole space useful space. Wormhome cynos would add some tools for people willing to deny kills to people looking for pvp to use this space to do their own stuff. If there's no reliable way to deny kills to people doing pvp then ratting is stupid and should be considered suicide, and without interesting pve content we all know that pvp is hard to find. Both groups (pve and pvp) should have a fair chance to get what they want, and IMO the devs should go further and tweak more stuff.
so basically null blocs in WH? screw small groups, gtfo and let only big ones play.
+1 for such great troll. |
|
Heinrich Erquilenne
Foundation Cutting-Edge Mordus Angels
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:46:00 -
[451] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Heinrich Erquilenne wrote:Looks fine, but the distance seems really small. How can 16km make a difference for capital ships? The real issue is that ragerolling exists in the first place. It makes it way too convenient for groups to close wormholes until they get something close to their home bases while cutting inhabitants or explorers from support very quickly. This should only be achieveable by a very large force (because i'm fine with larger groups stomping smaller ones).
Currently ratting in wormhole space with big ships is suicidal to say the least. That's why WH space is dead. Now increasing the risks of player disruption for small groups trying to exploit the mass limit mechanics at their own advantage is a step in the right direction but it should be seen as a first step. It won't suddently make wormhole space useful space. Wormhome cynos would add some tools for people willing to deny kills to people looking for pvp to use this space to do their own stuff. If there's no reliable way to deny kills to people doing pvp then ratting is stupid and should be considered suicide, and without interesting pve content we all know that pvp is hard to find. Both groups (pve and pvp) should have a fair chance to get what they want, and IMO the devs should go further and tweak more stuff. so basically null blocs in WH? screw small groups, gtfo and let only big ones play. +1 for such great troll.
You missed the point entierely. This should make pve in wormholes a bit safer since people looking for fights will be in danger when they jump into a system. More pve = more activity, including pvp ones. Look at the charts, the maps. If there's no pve there's no pvp. The highest number of kills happen in high sec, not in null.
I'm in an alliance living in npc null. This isn't a secret, ratter makes our most interesting kills. If you give people willing to do pve the means to protect themselves then they'll come and "content" everyone is thriving after will follow. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 09:56:00 -
[452] - Quote
Heinrich Erquilenne wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Heinrich Erquilenne wrote:Looks fine, but the distance seems really small. How can 16km make a difference for capital ships? The real issue is that ragerolling exists in the first place. It makes it way too convenient for groups to close wormholes until they get something close to their home bases while cutting inhabitants or explorers from support very quickly. This should only be achieveable by a very large force (because i'm fine with larger groups stomping smaller ones).
Currently ratting in wormhole space with big ships is suicidal to say the least. That's why WH space is dead. Now increasing the risks of player disruption for small groups trying to exploit the mass limit mechanics at their own advantage is a step in the right direction but it should be seen as a first step. It won't suddently make wormhole space useful space. Wormhome cynos would add some tools for people willing to deny kills to people looking for pvp to use this space to do their own stuff. If there's no reliable way to deny kills to people doing pvp then ratting is stupid and should be considered suicide, and without interesting pve content we all know that pvp is hard to find. Both groups (pve and pvp) should have a fair chance to get what they want, and IMO the devs should go further and tweak more stuff. so basically null blocs in WH? screw small groups, gtfo and let only big ones play. +1 for such great troll. You missed the point entierely. This should make pve in wormholes a bit safer since people looking for fights will be in danger when they jump into a system. More pve = more activity, including pvp ones. Look at the charts, the maps. If there's no pve there's no pvp. The highest number of kills happen in high sec, not in null. I'm in an alliance living in npc null. This isn't a secret, ratter makes our most interesting kills. If you give people willing to do pve the means to protect themselves then they'll come and "content" everyone is thriving after will follow.
I spent 30 months in wormhole, C6, C5 and now C4. Ratting there is great source of income, its not suicidal but viable only in C5 and C6 cause escalations. You dont make PVE safe when you remove ability to control hole collapsing, at best you make it more difficult. When we farm , we close everything excpet the static that goes into verge so if theres problem, 4 marauders can blap it. Small groups is what you want in WHs, since they provide content, occupy more holes, fly ships, get killed, kill you and all that. Hell, everybody rolls static to find stuff. Ive no interest in c4 static with 10 ore belts when im looking for sleeper anomalies with battleships. This change makes it goes away and forces us to spend much more time on finding content. When people get bored, they leave. Those few out for pew will eventually find none bar the few big entities in high end holes. Thats how it is. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
930
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:03:00 -
[453] - Quote
CCP this is directed to you.
Ok this thread has reached it's natural conclusion. We have heard from Large wormhole corporations, medium wormhole corporations, small corporations and the consistent overwhelming conclusion is that this change is completely without merit, harms all wormholers either in the short or long term and is universally despised.
We have also heard from people who have little or no understanding of the mechanics, or are from null blocks who resent wormhole life and can see it is a mechanism for starting to make it nullsec lite, actively trying to portray wormholers as weak ineffectual entities who are afraid of change, working the meta if you would rather see it that way.
There is no possible way to dress this change up with tweaks or polishing. The core idea is bad for the long term survival of wormholes.
That is the matter in the simplest clearest terms, people who are acknowledged experts in this matter have given clear detailed discourse as to the reasons why, there is actually nothing more that can be added to that, it is a comprehensive rejection of this change rationally and clearly presented to you.
You have the information you required, the responsibility is yours. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
241
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:04:00 -
[454] - Quote
I think this is a good change to be honest, and will shake things up a bit, which of course people will hate irrationally (though good comments have been made)
The elephant in the room with this, and rage rolling, seems to be that people have a problem with the idea that their fleet actually has to be on standby for a fight, rather than "listening on TS, playing DOTA, ping me if you roll into some bears".
If people are actually rage rolling for a fight, as is suggested, then presumably they have people ready anyway? So they're unaffected by this change - albeit taking an extra minute or so per hole to get caps back to jump range.
Smaller entities punished for not having numbers available to support their caps jumping? It's hard to believe people are saying this po-faced. It's not unfair that a support fleet sold have to be available to support caps, it's what you'd expect to be required! Certainly CCP doesn't think it balanced that one guy can roll holes with 2-3 alts with negligible risk without even having to worry about support.
Then again that's the other elephant in the room: people who currently close up their holes solo to bear and sensing that plsystyle becoming riskier or - God forbid - having to involve/require other people arguing against the change. |
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:05:00 -
[455] - Quote
As a Small group, who is tired of nul-sec and the low sec blob wars we have enjoyed the wormhole , the jump range will leave us defenseless against blob, and will kill the content in the game for the small groups. CCP definitely wants more blob's to advertise on youtube. When this goes in to effect, since we will be POS spinning most of the time we are setting up a minecraft and Dayz Server. To kill time until we get tired of playing for a game we cant do anything with anymore. Contact me in game for the Server address's as your spinning in you POS.
Anyone know any good online games, because this one is going to start sucking perdy soon
|
John Starski
Imperial Navy Lobsters U N K N O W N
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:06:00 -
[456] - Quote
Quote:You missed the point entierely. This should make pve in wormholes a bit safer since people looking for fights will be in danger when they jump into a system. More pve = more activity, including pvp ones. Look at the charts, the maps. If there's no pve there's no pvp. The highest number of kills happen in high sec, not in null.
I'm in an alliance living in npc null. This isn't a secret, ratter makes our most interesting kills. If you give people willing to do pve the means to protect themselves then they'll come and "content" everyone is thriving after will follow.
So, you basically saying that you live in k-space and have no idea whats going on in wh and too scared to pve in them without this changes. It seems like the majority of CSM and CCP thinks about wormholes in the same manner.
This post from No Response guy will explain you the obvious truth: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4886669#post4886669 |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1685
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:06:00 -
[457] - Quote
Heinrich Erquilenne wrote: You missed the point entierely. This should make pve in wormholes a bit safer since people looking for fights will be in danger when they jump into a system. More pve = more activity, including pvp ones. Look at the charts, the maps. If there's no pve there's no pvp. The highest number of kills happen in high sec, not in null.
I'm in an alliance living in npc null. This isn't a secret, ratter makes our most interesting kills. If you give people willing to do pve the means to protect themselves then they'll come and "content" everyone is thriving after will follow.
The difference is, in null sec, you rat for isk and the odd faction mode but in wormhole space the income is tied to sleeper salvage and blue loot. If you make it too safe and convenient for farmers who do nothing in wormhole space but shoot sleepers, the whole wormhole economy suffers. They will drive down the cost of sleeper salvage , further hurting to low class wormhole dwellers.
However, if this does become a problem, you will probably see large groups banding together to purge farmers from wormhole space... So to problem could fix itself +1 |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:10:00 -
[458] - Quote
Durzel wrote:I think this is a good change to be honest, and will shake things up a bit, which of course people will hate irrationally (though good comments have been made)
The elephant in the room with this, and rage rolling, seems to be that people have a problem with the idea that their fleet actually has to be on standby for a fight, rather than "listening on TS, playing DOTA, ping me if you roll into some bears".
If people are actually rage rolling for a fight, as is suggested, then presumably they have people ready anyway? So they're unaffected by this change - albeit taking an extra minute or so per hole to get caps back to jump range.
Smaller entities punished for not having numbers available to support their caps jumping? It's hard to believe people are saying this po-faced. It's not unfair that a support fleet sold have to be available to support caps, it's what you'd expect to be required! Certainly CCP doesn't think it balanced that one guy can roll holes with 2-3 alts with negligible risk without even having to worry about support.
Then again that's the other elephant in the room: people who currently close up their holes solo to bear and sensing that plsystyle becoming riskier or - God forbid - having to involve/require other people arguing against the change.
Right. No. We dont need to be super active like ppl in null standing by for whatever sheep order. why cant we listen to music, play DOTA or anything!? Who are you to tell us? IF you roll for fight, you have fleet ready. WE roll for PvE, so we are what? Forbidden, should we gtfo? I dont see the point.
And smaller - we are. Like 8 people. We dont have numbers to pull uneasy fights just so w can spawn 10km from hole with battleships ( we cant use anything bigger then orca in 4-4). What you suggest is to form big blocks, so I smell null living guy here without any idea how WHs work.
I wonder why everybody wants to kill small groups, who are providing content, so bad. I also direct you to another similar post
Jack Marshal wrote:As a Small group, who is tired of nul-sec and the low sec blob wars we have enjoyed the wormhole , the jump range will leave us defenseless against blob, and will kill the content in the game for the small groups. CCP definitely wants more blob's to advertise on youtube. When this goes in to effect, since we will be POS spinning most of the time we are setting up a minecraft and Dayz Server. To kill time until we get tired of playing for a game we cant do anything with anymore. Contact me in game for the Server address's as your spinning in you POS.
Anyone know any good online games, because this one is going to start sucking perdy soon
I seriously doubt youll understand but it is worth a try, for the blind.
|
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:14:00 -
[459] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Heinrich Erquilenne wrote: You missed the point entierely. This should make pve in wormholes a bit safer since people looking for fights will be in danger when they jump into a system. More pve = more activity, including pvp ones. Look at the charts, the maps. If there's no pve there's no pvp. The highest number of kills happen in high sec, not in null.
I'm in an alliance living in npc null. This isn't a secret, ratter makes our most interesting kills. If you give people willing to do pve the means to protect themselves then they'll come and "content" everyone is thriving after will follow.
The difference is, in null sec, you rat for isk and the odd faction mod but in wormhole space the income is tied to sleeper salvage (and blue tags), the value of which fluctuates depending on supply and demand. If you make it too safe and convenient for farmers who do nothing in wormhole space but shoot sleepers, the whole wormhole economy suffers. They will drive down the cost of sleeper salvage , further hurting low class wormhole dwellers.
Nonono. Blue loot is fixed price and melted ribbons are already so low it aint even funny. Die in T3s more plox. Every WH dweller is hit by price change, but more ppl in WH will lead to even lower price. Hell, hope stuff gets cheaper too.
MOst of what to do in WH is farm, get isk and spend it elsewhere. Much like rats in null, blue loot in WHs is the same. EVen without the drops you can make great isk from it. ANd given sheer amount of systems to farm in, ist nigh impossible to impact this.
|
Onslaughtor
Occult National Security Affirmative.
94
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:16:00 -
[460] - Quote
I for one like this change. While it may seem detrimental to those who are very well integrated into the current system, I believe that is the point. This change makes rolling holes harder with only high-mass ships. In theory, this will lead to a pipe in wh space lasting longer as people are less likely to roll it. Also it makes jumping into fight and then just jumping out harder as you may spawn out of the already large 5km jump range. I think this is a good change as it creates challenges for smart players to overcome and utilize, and diversify the styles of dealing with wh space.
|
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Kel hound
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:17:00 -
[461] - Quote
Dalron wrote:'Dons fireproof suit'
Idea : T3 / Battleship module
Activation/Wind Up Time : 12 Seconds Duration : 10 Seconds Range : 20km Any ships jumping through wormhole after module is active and running will land within 2k of the ship running the module.
Cap Fights : Jump a hard tanked T3 through and activate module and then jump cap ships through and they all land in a pile.
Rage Rolling Wormholes : Jump T3 through and burn back to hole and then activate module.
PVP Benefits : Extra high value ship to attack on the wormhole if you catch it in time. PVE Benefits : When rolling empty/dead WH's time taken to roll is significantly reduced
Problems : I'm sure someone will come up with some
How is this in any way different to the current system? It's like you slapped on a band-aid for a problem that shouldn't even exist!
Literally this idea for mass-based jumping is the worst idea for a change to w-space that I have ever heard. And that's including the idea to have some sort of mass-stabilizing unit to deploy around a wormhole. Fozzie, I don't know who gave you this idea or (heaven forbid) if you came up with it yourself, but either way you and your team have been seriously mislead if you think this will have a net-positive change on w-space.
Infact, the only way I can think of to make this change WORSE, is to also add mass-regeneration to all wormholes. |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
242
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:17:00 -
[462] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Durzel wrote:I think this is a good change to be honest, and will shake things up a bit, which of course people will hate irrationally (though good comments have been made)
The elephant in the room with this, and rage rolling, seems to be that people have a problem with the idea that their fleet actually has to be on standby for a fight, rather than "listening on TS, playing DOTA, ping me if you roll into some bears".
If people are actually rage rolling for a fight, as is suggested, then presumably they have people ready anyway? So they're unaffected by this change - albeit taking an extra minute or so per hole to get caps back to jump range.
Smaller entities punished for not having numbers available to support their caps jumping? It's hard to believe people are saying this po-faced. It's not unfair that a support fleet sold have to be available to support caps, it's what you'd expect to be required! Certainly CCP doesn't think it balanced that one guy can roll holes with 2-3 alts with negligible risk without even having to worry about support.
Then again that's the other elephant in the room: people who currently close up their holes solo to bear and sensing that plsystyle becoming riskier or - God forbid - having to involve/require other people arguing against the change. Right. No. We dont need to be super active like ppl in null standing by for whatever sheep order. why cant we listen to music, play DOTA or anything!? Who are you to tell us? IF you roll for fight, you have fleet ready. WE roll for PvE, so we are what? Forbidden, should we gtfo? I dont see the point. And smaller - we are. Like 8 people. We dont have numbers to pull uneasy fights just so w can spawn 10km from hole with battleships ( we cant use anything bigger then orca in 4-4). What you suggest is to form big blocks, so I smell null living guy here without any idea how WHs work. I wonder why everybody wants to kill small groups, who are providing content, so bad. I also direct you to another similar post Jack Marshal wrote:As a Small group, who is tired of nul-sec and the low sec blob wars we have enjoyed the wormhole , the jump range will leave us defenseless against blob, and will kill the content in the game for the small groups. CCP definitely wants more blob's to advertise on youtube. When this goes in to effect, since we will be POS spinning most of the time we are setting up a minecraft and Dayz Server. To kill time until we get tired of playing for a game we cant do anything with anymore. Contact me in game for the Server address's as your spinning in you POS.
Anyone know any good online games, because this one is going to start sucking perdy soon
I seriously doubt youll understand but it is worth a try, for the blind. If you're genuinely 8 people you have no business using caps period. In any other part of space in the game you'd be punished for lack of support and it would be unsustainable, but in W-space because everyone knows the mechanics you can just roll hostiles out in near total safety.
If you're 8 guys in a lower class wormhole, don't use Orcas blindly I guess? Use combat ships instead, or just suck it up that you don't have enough numbers to close out all your holes. You're not entitled to PVE risk free in wormholes, no one is. |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
242
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:24:00 -
[463] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:I for one like this change. While it may seem detrimental to those who are very well integrated into the current system, I believe that is the point. This change makes rolling holes harder with only high-mass ships. In theory, this will lead to a pipe in wh space lasting longer as people are less likely to roll it. Also it makes jumping into fight and then just jumping out harder as you may spawn out of the already large 5km jump range. I think this is a good change as it creates challenges for smart players to overcome and utilize, and diversify the styles of dealing with wh space.
Exactly.
People rage rolling with a fleet ready to fight are unaffected, because they are supporting their caps anyway. The difference is that they probably can't sit there playing other games whilst listening on TS anymore.
People (usually 1 or 2 actual people, because everyone else is superfluous anyway) rolling with unsupported Orcas and/or capitals, as is the current status quo? Can't believe people are saying this should be legitimate with a straight face. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1686
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:26:00 -
[464] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote: Nonono. Blue loot is fixed price and melted ribbons are already so low it aint even funny. Die in T3s more plox. Every WH dweller is hit by price change, but more ppl in WH will lead to even lower price. Hell, hope stuff gets cheaper too.
MOst of what to do in WH is farm, get isk and spend it elsewhere. Much like rats in null, blue loot in WHs is the same. EVen without the drops you can make great isk from it. ANd given sheer amount of systems to farm in, ist nigh impossible to impact this.
You're only half right...
The value of blue loot found in low class wormholes is insignificant and thus most of the sites value is in salvage. On the opposite end of the spectrum in c5/c6 space, blue loot makes up the majority of the sites value but the sites still yield a lot of salvage.
As the majority of farmers live in C5 space, they flood to market with salvage which severely hurts the income of low class dwellers. +1 |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:27:00 -
[465] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Durzel wrote:I think this is a good change to be honest, and will shake things up a bit, which of course people will hate irrationally (though good comments have been made)
The elephant in the room with this, and rage rolling, seems to be that people have a problem with the idea that their fleet actually has to be on standby for a fight, rather than "listening on TS, playing DOTA, ping me if you roll into some bears".
If people are actually rage rolling for a fight, as is suggested, then presumably they have people ready anyway? So they're unaffected by this change - albeit taking an extra minute or so per hole to get caps back to jump range.
Smaller entities punished for not having numbers available to support their caps jumping? It's hard to believe people are saying this po-faced. It's not unfair that a support fleet sold have to be available to support caps, it's what you'd expect to be required! Certainly CCP doesn't think it balanced that one guy can roll holes with 2-3 alts with negligible risk without even having to worry about support.
Then again that's the other elephant in the room: people who currently close up their holes solo to bear and sensing that plsystyle becoming riskier or - God forbid - having to involve/require other people arguing against the change. Right. No. We dont need to be super active like ppl in null standing by for whatever sheep order. why cant we listen to music, play DOTA or anything!? Who are you to tell us? IF you roll for fight, you have fleet ready. WE roll for PvE, so we are what? Forbidden, should we gtfo? I dont see the point. And smaller - we are. Like 8 people. We dont have numbers to pull uneasy fights just so w can spawn 10km from hole with battleships ( we cant use anything bigger then orca in 4-4). What you suggest is to form big blocks, so I smell null living guy here without any idea how WHs work. I wonder why everybody wants to kill small groups, who are providing content, so bad. I also direct you to another similar post Jack Marshal wrote:As a Small group, who is tired of nul-sec and the low sec blob wars we have enjoyed the wormhole , the jump range will leave us defenseless against blob, and will kill the content in the game for the small groups. CCP definitely wants more blob's to advertise on youtube. When this goes in to effect, since we will be POS spinning most of the time we are setting up a minecraft and Dayz Server. To kill time until we get tired of playing for a game we cant do anything with anymore. Contact me in game for the Server address's as your spinning in you POS.
Anyone know any good online games, because this one is going to start sucking perdy soon
I seriously doubt youll understand but it is worth a try, for the blind. If you're genuinely 8 people you have no business using caps period. In any other part of space in the game you'd be punished for lack of support and it would be unsustainable, but in W-space because everyone knows the mechanics you can just roll hostiles out in near total safety. If you're 8 guys in a lower class wormhole, don't use Orcas blindly I guess? Use combat ships instead, or just suck it up that you don't have enough numbers to close out all your holes. You're not entitled to PVE risk free in wormholes, no one is.
As mentioned, class 4. Thats lower class and it should be feasible for any size entity to live in WH. Forcing huge groups is bad and taking away the best tool for creating content is bad too.
Just tell me, who will replace the people that will leave when they get wiped out 3 times and get tired of ti? What content will you have? BU? HK? ADhoc? Azt? And WHO ELSE, thers 2500 WHs and sole aim of this is to force small groups out. That is everything in C4 and under + lots of c5. Surely craetes content. Or did you miss all the negativity from all sizes of groups here, people who DO LIVE in wormhole. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
935
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:28:00 -
[466] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Durzel wrote:I think this is a good change to be honest, and will shake things up a bit, which of course people will hate irrationally (though good comments have been made)
The elephant in the room with this, and rage rolling, seems to be that people have a problem with the idea that their fleet actually has to be on standby for a fight, rather than "listening on TS, playing DOTA, ping me if you roll into some bears".
If people are actually rage rolling for a fight, as is suggested, then presumably they have people ready anyway? So they're unaffected by this change - albeit taking an extra minute or so per hole to get caps back to jump range.
Smaller entities punished for not having numbers available to support their caps jumping? It's hard to believe people are saying this po-faced. It's not unfair that a support fleet sold have to be available to support caps, it's what you'd expect to be required! Certainly CCP doesn't think it balanced that one guy can roll holes with 2-3 alts with negligible risk without even having to worry about support.
Then again that's the other elephant in the room: people who currently close up their holes solo to bear and sensing that plsystyle becoming riskier or - God forbid - having to involve/require other people arguing against the change. Right. No. We dont need to be super active like ppl in null standing by for whatever sheep order. why cant we listen to music, play DOTA or anything!? Who are you to tell us? IF you roll for fight, you have fleet ready. WE roll for PvE, so we are what? Forbidden, should we gtfo? I dont see the point. And smaller - we are. Like 8 people. We dont have numbers to pull uneasy fights just so w can spawn 10km from hole with battleships ( we cant use anything bigger then orca in 4-4). What you suggest is to form big blocks, so I smell null living guy here without any idea how WHs work. I wonder why everybody wants to kill small groups, who are providing content, so bad. I also direct you to another similar post Jack Marshal wrote:As a Small group, who is tired of nul-sec and the low sec blob wars we have enjoyed the wormhole , the jump range will leave us defenseless against blob, and will kill the content in the game for the small groups. CCP definitely wants more blob's to advertise on youtube. When this goes in to effect, since we will be POS spinning most of the time we are setting up a minecraft and Dayz Server. To kill time until we get tired of playing for a game we cant do anything with anymore. Contact me in game for the Server address's as your spinning in you POS.
Anyone know any good online games, because this one is going to start sucking perdy soon
I seriously doubt youll understand but it is worth a try, for the blind. If you're genuinely 8 people you have no business using caps period. In any other part of space in the game you'd be punished for lack of support and it would be unsustainable, but in W-space because everyone knows the mechanics you can just roll hostiles out in near total safety. If you're 8 guys in a lower class wormhole, don't use Orcas blindly I guess? Use combat ships instead, or just suck it up that you don't have enough numbers to close out all your holes. You're not entitled to PVE risk free in wormholes, no one is.
I believe you may be somewhat misinformed about wormhole mechanics, it is very difficult to rationalise a completely different environment based on experience in other areas. Remember in wormholes you cannot call on instant support cynoing from across the map, you truly are on your own with what you have. Wormholes are unquestionably the most dangerous areas of eve. If you believe that PVE is risk free, your life expectation in wormholes would be remarkably short, what you describe as risk free and near total safety, would be described as batsh-- crazy risk in KS. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:34:00 -
[467] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote: Nonono. Blue loot is fixed price and melted ribbons are already so low it aint even funny. Die in T3s more plox. Every WH dweller is hit by price change, but more ppl in WH will lead to even lower price. Hell, hope stuff gets cheaper too.
MOst of what to do in WH is farm, get isk and spend it elsewhere. Much like rats in null, blue loot in WHs is the same. EVen without the drops you can make great isk from it. ANd given sheer amount of systems to farm in, ist nigh impossible to impact this.
You're only half right... The value of blue loot found in low class wormholes is insignificant and thus most of the sites value is in salvage. On the opposite end of the spectrum in c5/c6 space, blue loot makes up the majority of the sites value but the sites still yield a lot of salvage. As the majority of farmers live in C5 space, they flood to market with salvage which severely hurts the income of low class dwellers.
You dont have the battleships that often in low class yes, but time needed to clear sites is really low. Im not sure about melted drop rate, but C1-C3 yields crapton of wrecks to salvage. |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
69
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:43:00 -
[468] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote: You dont have the battleships that often in low class yes, but time needed to clear sites is really low. Im not sure about melted drop rate, but C1-C3 yields crapton of wrecks to salvage.
Droprates are way lower, also just the escalation brings about as many wrecks than most C1-3 sites. Also you can do C5/6 homesites for 3-4 days wihtout having to rely on good statics.
Here is an idea I-¦m throwing out there instead of jumprange: Make the mass of C5/6s more random. Not just 10% deviation but 50-60%. Since CCP just found the code for regeneration mass that shouldn-¦t be too hard. |
Chev Alsar
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:43:00 -
[469] - Quote
These points have already been made by many, however I will add my own 2 cents.
- Rage Rolling is the only way to reliably create PVP in high class wormholes.
This change won't stop larger groups from rolling, in fact we are already certain of how we will do it if these changes go live. This change will hurt the smaller groups (which we really aren't at this stage) as they will be unable to roll away from entities like Hard Knocks, Lazerhawks, NOHO et all.
This means these smaller groups, who would normally log on scout and close holes before PVE'ing will now log on, scout the hole and log off. There is no maybe when it comes to whether they will lose their rolling ships. They will lose them and the hole will remain open.
Instead of an active PVE fleet which can then be rolled into and ganked we have fewer active players in Wormholes.
While it won't stop us from rolling this change will make it take more time. Changes that make the game more tedious are not good for anyone.
- Being unable to properly position ships on jumping removes decisions from the hands of players.
This one is pretty straightforward, but it'll make it much harder to co-ordinate caps when jumping in. Defenders are already at an advantage (unless it's EXIT vs NOHO you glorious b******s!) and this will just further cement the advantage.
- Kiting doctrines will continue to be unpopular.
Any kiting doctrine is doomed with this change. They're all low mass.
Lets please see some variety, doing the opposite of the proposed change will let other metas thrive in wormhole space. There are doctrines that have never been seen in Wormholes due to the current mechanics favouring armour so much. Lets see low mass stuff (or even high velocity at time of jump) end up far enough from the WH to start kiting.
I want to see Rail Tengu fleets, nano Ishtars and Arty Tornados running around and shaking things up.
In all Traiori summed it up better than I can. All his points are valid concerns and this suggested change is in the wrong direction.
We all appreciate the Devs giving Wormhole space attention, we'd just like to be listened to on this one. |
Setsune Rin
Collapsed Out Overload Everything
212
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:44:00 -
[470] - Quote
now that the dev-blog is out i still don't like this mechanic
if you can run a big t3 fleet to support your rolling caps it's a delay And for big groups it's still a large prohibitive factor, i predict t3 groups with a carrier for support will not happen nearly as much now that the extraction is gone
if you cant run a big t3 fleet to support your rolling caps it's a giant risk that will reduce the amount of rolling small groups can do
if you're just using your capital alt and an orca to roll because you want a new static it's suddenly incredibly risky and will be avoided
overall i suspect it'll reduce the shifting of wormholes, reduce pvp and it's just a big nuisance for blobs where it's an achilles heel for the small guys
the rest of the wormhole changes are great, scrap this one completely for now and come back with something that doesn't have these severe disadvantages |
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epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
935
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:46:00 -
[471] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote: You dont have the battleships that often in low class yes, but time needed to clear sites is really low. Im not sure about melted drop rate, but C1-C3 yields crapton of wrecks to salvage.
Droprates are way lower, also just the escalation brings about as many wrecks than most C1-3 sites. Also you can do C5/6 homesites for 3-4 days wihtout having to rely on good statics. Here is an idea I-¦m throwing out there instead of jumprange: Make the mass of C5/6s more random. Not just 10% deviation but 50-60%. Since CCP just found the code for regeneration mass that shouldn-¦t be too hard.
Sorry? How is this a benefit? Is having ships locked out and destroyed going to encourage seeking meaningful contact and content. One may as well have jumping through a wormhole engage the self destruct with no off button. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:50:00 -
[472] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote: You dont have the battleships that often in low class yes, but time needed to clear sites is really low. Im not sure about melted drop rate, but C1-C3 yields crapton of wrecks to salvage.
Droprates are way lower, also just the escalation brings about as many wrecks than most C1-3 sites. Also you can do C5/6 homesites for 3-4 days wihtout having to rely on good statics. Here is an idea I-¦m throwing out there instead of jumprange: Make the mass of C5/6s more random. Not just 10% deviation but 50-60%. Since CCP just found the code for regeneration mass that shouldn-¦t be too hard.
Good to know on the rates. Ive lived in C6 so I know, but I can tell we were capable of farming it all in single day :D but that depends if you feel brave enough to re-farm or just hope for new spawns.
Also +1 on the mass variation. I mentioned that before too. ANd id give that to all wormholes. Its too predictable. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:50:00 -
[473] - Quote
I'm sure many people have already said this one, but here goes:
Making capitals slowboat some 20km back to a wormhole to roll it just adds complexity to something that doesn't need it. If we can assume that the hole being closed is quiet, this just adds time and annoyance or the need to webbing alts and the use of a tactical or fleet member 200km or more from the hole. Any way you can look at that, it involves lots of slowboating of ships (either a cloaked ship for the bounce, or the capital itself) for the same result we have now. In the effect there are enemies on the other side, the hole just became a barrier to PVE play, and with the risk versus reward calculations, including potentially lost pods in there, might as well just leave it and log for the night, try again tomorrow. There isn't any "emergent gameplay" there. It's just downsides, not benefits. It will result in less combat trying to roll holes as suddenly it's not worth the risk to drop the ships to roll that hostile hole with the knowledge that anything going through will be scattered and out of mutual support range, and rendered easy pickings by the defenders. Spider tanked battleships for C4s and under are just as useless in this case as capitals are for C5s and C6s. Dropping a group of guardians in to keep the rolling ships alive, throwing the ISK risked even more towards the wasteful end of that equation, just makes for a more tedious process, and still doesn't guarantee success. Just means more folks will be playing Elder Scrolls Online, or World of Tanks, or anything but EVE cause EVE just went from "dangerous but worth it" to "why do we bother anymore?"
The inverse mass solution many have proposed would make more sense. It also doesn't make Orcas pointless for wormhole use, as the hauling end of things is now easily accomplished using deep space transports, and only the mass of an Orca makes it useful. (Because no one in their right mind mines ore in a wormhole anymore.) |
Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction The Pursuit of Happiness
1525
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:50:00 -
[474] - Quote
While I only tried to live in a wormhole for a few weeks ina LONG past. my 2 cents are. Seems clear that peopel that live in the hoels feel their activities will be harder to control. But seems that is exactly what ccp wants.
Its like a group of hunters/fur trappers complaining that the white bear they hunt is too hard to find (its almost extinct), they want somethign to make easier to find the remaining bears. the government on other hand make rules that make it harder to hunt and find the white bears. The hunters get mad and angry. But on the long run that will save them, because that will open space for the bear population to replenish.. If nothing was done on other hand the bear would eventually go extinct and no matter how easy was to hunt one.. there would not be enough bears to feed all the fur trappers. "If brute force does not solve your problem..... -áthen you are -ásurely not using enough!" |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:53:00 -
[475] - Quote
Chev Alsar wrote: This means these smaller groups, who would normally log on scout and close holes before PVE'ing will now log on, scout the hole and log off. There is no maybe when it comes to whether they will lose their rolling ships. They will lose them and the hole will remain open.
It's a risk/profit game, what's wrong with it? If they can't tolerate risk/cover expenses, someone more capable/tolerant will take their place. WHs still produce insane amount of profits, they won't stay unattended. And you needn't to live there actually, it was designed as a place for expeditions in the first place. If you can't adapt to living there, then revert to simply visiting occasionally. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:56:00 -
[476] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Chev Alsar wrote: This means these smaller groups, who would normally log on scout and close holes before PVE'ing will now log on, scout the hole and log off. There is no maybe when it comes to whether they will lose their rolling ships. They will lose them and the hole will remain open.
It's a risk/profit game, what's wrong with it? If they can't tolerate risk/cover expenses, someone more capable/tolerant will take their place. WHs still produce insane amount of profits, they won't stay unattended. And you needn't to live there actually, it was designed as a place for expeditions in the first place. If you can't adapt to living there, then revert to simply visiting occasionally. You seem to have no idea how many empty C5 and C6 wormholes are out there with 30+ combat anomalies in them. It's like a graveyard out there. If there's so much money to be had, why are these boundless riches left unattended? |
Xe'Cara'eos
A Big Enough Lever
212
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:56:00 -
[477] - Quote
I have had another thought - what is the expected impact on new WH residents, especially young players? who we ARE trying to encourage, (I hope!) For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it WILL be. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:59:00 -
[478] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:I'm sure many people have already said this one, but here goes:
Making capitals slowboat some 20km back to a wormhole to roll it But you needn't:
Quote:So, you create bm very close to hole you entered with, than you send you cap in insta-warp with web to this bm, and follow it, than you send it back using same method, again. If you are really a collective, and not some creepy multiboxer, which cares only about closing threatening hole ASAP and continue with his farming, than it won't be too hard for you to pull this. The only problem is when commiting several capitals through the wh they will spawn too far from each other, unable to refit. This at least reasonable worrings and mb should be attended. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
935
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 10:59:00 -
[479] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Chev Alsar wrote: This means these smaller groups, who would normally log on scout and close holes before PVE'ing will now log on, scout the hole and log off. There is no maybe when it comes to whether they will lose their rolling ships. They will lose them and the hole will remain open.
It's a risk/profit game, what's wrong with it? If they can't tolerate risk/cover expenses, someone more capable/tolerant will take their place. WHs still produce insane amount of profits, they won't stay unattended. And you needn't to live there actually, it was designed as a place for expeditions in the first place. If you can't adapt to living there, then revert to simply visiting occasionally.
Sorry, you are misinformed, although large amounts of profits can be obtained, the majority of wormhole space is not so fortunate, and to earn the large incomes one has large costs, the more profitable enterprises are somewhat expensive to equip for, and somewhat expensive to replace when they go boom, and they do go boom in such a pretty manner. And as for visiting from kspace to escalate sites, that might prove to be somewhat unprofitable, as the journey would be unlikely to have both an in and back. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:00:00 -
[480] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: You seem to have no idea how many empty C5 and C6 wormholes are out there with 30+ combat anomalies in them. It's like a graveyard out there. If there's so much money to be had, why are these boundless riches left unattended?
Because people are lazy. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:03:00 -
[481] - Quote
Heinrich Erquilenne wrote:Looks fine, but the distance seems really small. How can 16km make a difference for capital ships? The real issue is that ragerolling exists in the first place. It makes it way too convenient for groups to close wormholes until they get something close to their home bases while cutting inhabitants or explorers from support very quickly. This should only be achieveable by a very large force (because i'm fine with larger groups stomping smaller ones).
Currently ratting in wormhole space with big ships is suicidal to say the least. That's why WH space is dead. Now increasing the risks of player disruption for small groups trying to exploit the mass limit mechanics at their own advantage is a step in the right direction but it should be seen as a first step. It won't suddently make wormhole space useful space. Wormhome cynos would add some tools for people willing to deny kills to people looking for pvp to use this space to do their own stuff. If there's no reliable way to deny kills to people doing pvp then ratting is stupid and should be considered suicide, and without interesting pve content we all know that pvp is hard to find. Both groups (pve and pvp) should have a fair chance to get what they want, and IMO the devs should go further and tweak more stuff.
This is either an elaborate troll or written by someone who understands nothing about wormholes and the community that lives in them. I haven't figured out which. |
Oreamnos Amric
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
58
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:03:00 -
[482] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote: Because people are lazy.
People are indeed lazy. This mechanic makes rolling holes more time consuming therefore lazy people won't bother. Instead they'll log off and do something else. How does that improve wormholes? |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:04:00 -
[483] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: You seem to have no idea how many empty C5 and C6 wormholes are out there with 30+ combat anomalies in them. It's like a graveyard out there. If there's so much money to be had, why are these boundless riches left unattended?
Because people are lazy.
no because it takes hours to run that many sites then salvage. on top of that you not even guaranteed the rewards as you have to go out of WH space to sell it which puts it at risk of being ganked and lost.
Edit: Spelling errors |
John Starski
Imperial Navy Lobsters U N K N O W N
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:06:00 -
[484] - Quote
Kagura Nikon wrote:While I only tried to live in a wormhole for a few weeks ina LONG past. my 2 cents are. Seems clear that peopel that live in the hoels feel their activities will be harder to control. But seems that is exactly what ccp wants.
Its like a group of hunters/fur trappers complaining that the white bear they hunt is too hard to find (its almost extinct), they want somethign to make easier to find the remaining bears. the government on other hand make rules that make it harder to hunt and find the white bears. The hunters get mad and angry. But on the long run that will save them, because that will open space for the bear population to replenish.. If nothing was done on other hand the bear would eventually go extinct and no matter how easy was to hunt one.. there would not be enough bears to feed all the fur trappers.
It's more like there are still plenty of bears and no extinction possibility but goverment desides to dig deep wide ditch with crocodiles around the place where they live. And then calls this "new and exciting improvement in hunting"! |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:09:00 -
[485] - Quote
Oreamnos Amric wrote:Ray Kyonhe wrote: Because people are lazy.
People are indeed lazy. This mechanic makes rolling holes more time consuming therefore lazy people won't bother. Instead they'll log off and do something else. How does that improve wormholes? This improves them for those who not so lazy and ready to spend this time - which is also goes well with Eve's design concepts, as it gives additional benefits or those ready to contribute some effort.
I personally would like to see wormholes to become more close to its original desing - [mostly] uninhabited space full of totally unpredictable and deadly encounters either with other players, and with environment itself - with some unique content which can't be seen anywhere else. To be explorer's paradise. Not another boring ratting grounds and PEW-PEW fest, with a little bit flavor. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
TKL HUN
Jugis Modo Utopia pwn-O-graphy
154
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:10:00 -
[486] - Quote
I can only repeat myself, don't kill WH space, fix nullsec.
Coz this will kill WH space sadly...
So -1. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
936
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:12:00 -
[487] - Quote
John Starski wrote:Kagura Nikon wrote:While I only tried to live in a wormhole for a few weeks ina LONG past. my 2 cents are. Seems clear that peopel that live in the hoels feel their activities will be harder to control. But seems that is exactly what ccp wants.
Its like a group of hunters/fur trappers complaining that the white bear they hunt is too hard to find (its almost extinct), they want somethign to make easier to find the remaining bears. the government on other hand make rules that make it harder to hunt and find the white bears. The hunters get mad and angry. But on the long run that will save them, because that will open space for the bear population to replenish.. If nothing was done on other hand the bear would eventually go extinct and no matter how easy was to hunt one.. there would not be enough bears to feed all the fur trappers. It's more like there are still plenty of bears and no extinction possibility but goverment desides to dig deep wide ditch with crocodiles around the place where they live. And then calls this "new and exciting improvement in hunting"! You forgot to mention the point where the new feature to improve engagement is that when you try to cross the ditch you get pushed into the crocodiles. You know, for fun. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:12:00 -
[488] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found.
I'd like to add something to this very constructive post. I know lower-class wormholes are not as "important" probably as higher-class to most people and Devs here, but:
Small Groups living in C1-C3 can not afford to form a defense fleet for their ships, bringing in Fuel for example, yes sometimes even don't have enough people to have Scouts on every wormhole. If this change will come with Hyperion Patch I am seeing possibly C3, maybe C2, but for sure C1 decreasing a lot in Population and Content and I think they are affected as much as higher class wormholes with their capitals are affected. No C2 + C3 can risk an orca anymore. If you have intruders and don't know about it, becaues with 3 people you just can't have scouts 23.5/7 in your wormhole, the orca is 100% dead due to it mass and slow Speed, thanks to a single Warp Scrambler and a single Rapier for example. And so is in many cases any other industrial you use to manage your logistic. Risk vs. Reward in this low-class wormholes is already bad, but it's at the edge of "acceptable" for C2 and C3. With this change nothing will be done to increase reward for living in a C1-C3 in the same matter as the risk is increasing. C1-C3 can not support a Group of approximatly 1-5 People to constantly live in. That number is just not enough to protect your ships doing logistics, which will die now a lot more often, increasing your costs and just causing Demotivation because you can't do anything against that in a C1-C3 with just so few People. If you take C2, where you can "theoretically" roll a static to increase your income and I haven't seen anybody doing this in my wormhole life it will now be completely unreasonable (risk vs. reward) from my point of view.
Please correct me if I have a wrong Point of view on this as somebody living in a low-class wormhole, enjoying all form of Content they provide (direct lowsec Exits, PvP, some PvE, some industry). |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:14:00 -
[489] - Quote
Oreamnos Amric wrote:Ray Kyonhe wrote: Because people are lazy.
People are indeed lazy. This mechanic makes rolling holes more time consuming therefore lazy people won't bother. Instead they'll log off and do something else. How does that improve wormholes?
Sure the people in the game who roll, scan, scout, Fight, Farm, ninja huff gas, gank, haul and then deal with corp matters and the Awful pos system are the lazy people.
Seriously 90% of my time playing eve is currently scanning and scouting dead chains with no one in them to roll and get another dead chain.
an increase to rolling and therefore finding people to fight or WH's to carebear in is an increase to the already mountainous pile of tedious and time consuming tasks we Whers undertake on a daily basis
(tbh the only people I think who work harder than WH's are people who fuel and run Nullsec recon's and logistic divisions) |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
936
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:14:00 -
[490] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:Oreamnos Amric wrote:Ray Kyonhe wrote: Because people are lazy.
People are indeed lazy. This mechanic makes rolling holes more time consuming therefore lazy people won't bother. Instead they'll log off and do something else. How does that improve wormholes? This improves them for those who not so lazy and ready to spend this time - which is also goes well with Eve's design concepts, as it gives additional benefits or those ready to contribute some effort. I personally would like to see wormholes to become more close to its original desing - [mostly] uninhabited space full of totally unpredictable and deadly encounters either with other players, and with environment itself - with some unique content which can't be seen anywhere else. To be explorer's paradise. Not another boring ratting grounds and PEW-PEW fest, with a little bit flavor.
Funny really, those who live in wormholes choose to do so, those who do not live in wormholes want them not to.
Seems legit.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Freddie Merrcury
Daktaklakpak.
123
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:18:00 -
[491] - Quote
Alright, so can I try to think the same thought process that spawned this little gem of an idea?
"Hmm, lets see, how can we make wormhole space less lackluster after we dicked it up two expansions ago with the scanning changes?"
"Uh, gee boss, how about we, ummm, make it really hard to collapse every wormhole in the game?"
"Yeah sure everyone loves when we make mundane tasks inordinately difficult for difficulties sake."
Perhaps its in Fozzie's contract that they have to make one terrible change for every set number of good changes every patch. Or perhaps its the inverse, I haven't figured it out yet. I been kicked out of better homes than this. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:22:00 -
[492] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
Small Groups living in C1-C3 can not afford to form a defense fleet for their ships, bringing in Fuel for example, yes sometimes even don't have enough people to have Scouts on every wormhole. If this change will come with Hyperion Patch I am seeing possibly C3, maybe C2, but for sure C1 decreasing a lot in Population and Content and I think they are affected as much as higher class wormholes with their capitals are affected. No C2 + C3 can risk an orca anymore. If you have intruders and don't know about it, becaues with 3 people you just can't have scouts 23.5/7 in your wormhole, the orca is 100% dead due to it mass and slow Speed, thanks to a single Warp Scrambler and a single Rapier for example. And so is in many cases any other industrial you use to manage your logistic. Risk vs. Reward in this low-class wormholes is already bad, but it's at the edge of "acceptable" for C2 and C3. With this change nothing will be done to increase reward for living in a C1-C3 in the same matter as the risk is increasing. C1-C3 can not support a Group of approximatly 1-5 People to constantly live in. That number is just not enough to protect your ships doing logistics, which will die now a lot more often, increasing your costs and just causing Demotivation because you can't do anything against that in a C1-C3 with just so few People. If you take C2, where you can "theoretically" roll a static to increase your income and I haven't seen anybody doing this in my wormhole life it will now be completely unreasonable (risk vs. reward) from my point of view.
Please correct me if I have a wrong Point of view on this as somebody living in a low-class wormhole, enjoying all form of Content they provide (direct lowsec Exits, PvP, some PvE, some industry).
LOL CORRECTION!. You can have 50 people living in a c2 and live decently. Also with 50 people its still easy as to roll the static in the new environment... All those 'afk people' that sit in their POS while others roll WHs will just have jump into a suitable ship and help out. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:23:00 -
[493] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:CCP this is directed to you.
Ok this thread has reached it's natural conclusion. We have heard from Large wormhole corporations, medium wormhole corporations, small corporations and the consistent overwhelming conclusion is that this change is completely without merit, harms all wormholers either in the short or long term and is universally despised.
We have also heard from people who have little or no understanding of the mechanics, or are from null blocks who resent wormhole life and can see it is a mechanism for starting to make it nullsec lite, actively trying to portray wormholers as weak ineffectual entities who are afraid of change, working the meta if you would rather see it that way.
There is no possible way to dress this change up with tweaks or polishing. The core idea is bad for the long term survival of wormholes.
That is the matter in the simplest clearest terms, people who are acknowledged experts in this matter have given clear detailed discourse as to the reasons why, there is actually nothing more that can be added to that, it is a comprehensive rejection of this change rationally and clearly presented to you.
You have the information you required, the responsibility is yours.
Quoted for emphasis.
25 pages and counting is enough. Make your move. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:24:00 -
[494] - Quote
LOL CCP MAKE THE CHANGES! They are awesome! We might get some more active people moving in to fight! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
93
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:25:00 -
[495] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:LOL CORRECTION!. You can have 50 people living in a c2 and live decently. Also with 50 people its still easy as to roll the static in the new environment... All those 'afk people' that sit in their POS while others roll WHs will just have jump into a suitable ship and help out.
Please Show me one corp who is doing this and where this C2 can pay for Tower, Fuel, Ships, etc. |
stierkobb
Hard Knocks Inc.
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:25:00 -
[496] - Quote
The intention to make the wormhole meta more unpredictable and dangerous has been made clear at Fanfest 2014, at least on the Wormholes 2 meeting where I was present. However I would have never expected a change like the spawn distance which is really the worst idea. Changes to K162 signature spawning have been discussed and I expected this or a similar change.
1) Rolling a wormhole There will be no way to roll a wormhole quickly, especially for smaller groups/corps. It will also take considerably more time to do it, which is my biggest concern with the spawn distance changes. Longer time needed means more time exposed to possible attacks. It will be impossible to quickly get rid of a potentially dangerous static connection (aka combat rolling), especially for small groups or few people online, so the connection will be kept and people will either POS spin ships, play another game or log off until the connection despawns. The reason for that is that smaller groups/corps simply do not have the bodies in fleet to defend their ships, so they depend often on quick and sneaky rolls. This will have a detrimental effect on w-space activity and connections as wormhole connections can not be rolled to find better PVP or PVE content. I wonder how often Fozzie or someone else actually rolled wormholes. Seriously.
2) Capital fights As mentioned previously, dreads and carriers are committed by larger groups regularly and with great effect, but rely on a few aspects which are the same throughout EVE: If you jump through a wormhole or to a cyno, you will land in close proximity with everyone else that jumped with you. This is essential for carriers and dreads for refitting and support (remote repair and energy transfer). Now this mechanic should be changed for w-space only, although the number of capital ships is severely limited compared to k-space, which reduces the chance to spawn next to a friendly carrier greatly. Imagine you jump 200 carriers instead of only 2.
With small numbers, carriers are often used as logistic ships so more pilots can fly DPS/Ewar ships instead of logistic cuisers. The option to bring a carrier instead of 4 or more logistic cruisers is often the only way to take fights, but relies on the fact that the carrier can jump back if it survives a triage cycle. This option won't be available with the new changes, so less fights will be happening. Again, a detrimental effect on PVP content in w-space.
3) K162 appearance only on first jump This will lead to many unopened and unused connections and many more signatures on overall. Less open connections mean fewer routes to explore and less content overall in w-space. A potential detrimental effect on PVP content in w-space, too.
So instead of making wormhole life more interesting and concentrate on POS code, CCP chooses to make it harder and more boring, hurting smaller entities more than large corps/alliances.
Any views or opinions presented in this post are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Hard Knocks Inc.
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:26:00 -
[497] - Quote
Freddie Merrcury wrote:Alright, so can I try to think the same thought process that spawned this little gem of an idea?
"Hmm, lets see, how can we make wormhole space less lackluster after we dicked it up two expansions ago with the scanning changes?"
"Uh, gee boss, how about we, ummm, make it really hard to use collapse every wormhole in the game?"
"Yeah sure everyone loves when we make mundane tasks inordinately difficult for difficulties sake."
Perhaps its in Fozzie's contract that they have to make one terrible change for every set number of good changes every patch. Or perhaps its the inverse, I haven't figured it out yet.
That many WH corps aren't slavishly employing system security every time someone leaves a POS bubble anymore is a result of those scanning changes. Some were good, some were bad, but all of it promoted being lazy and sloppy with WH safety. Now they want to make rolling those holes (that are so easy to spot) extra difficult, if not impossible given a potential enemy fleet in the vicinity. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:31:00 -
[498] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Funny really, those who live in wormholes choose to do so, those who do not live in wormholes want them not to.
Seems legit.
Why you have to live their? Who said so? It was designed as unihabited space. And as many others things in EVE were left undeveloped. Somewhat different farming ground, that is. Instead of creating it in explorer's paradise full of deadly traps and unpredictable environment challenges, CCP went - as always - the easies way. Just add some red crossed here and there, make them not so stupid as other croses and all be ok. This is the problem, as I see it.
You found the way to live their, despite of initial design? I bow to you, keep on a good work. But I simply don't care as to me the ability to live here isn't so important. I'm more like explorer, and somewhat less carebear or pvpeer. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Heinrich Erquilenne
Foundation Cutting-Edge Mordus Angels
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:34:00 -
[499] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Ray Kyonhe wrote:Chev Alsar wrote: This means these smaller groups, who would normally log on scout and close holes before PVE'ing will now log on, scout the hole and log off. There is no maybe when it comes to whether they will lose their rolling ships. They will lose them and the hole will remain open.
It's a risk/profit game, what's wrong with it? If they can't tolerate risk/cover expenses, someone more capable/tolerant will take their place. WHs still produce insane amount of profits, they won't stay unattended. And you needn't to live there actually, it was designed as a place for expeditions in the first place. If you can't adapt to living there, then revert to simply visiting occasionally. You seem to have no idea how many empty C5 and C6 wormholes are out there with 30+ combat anomalies in them. It's like a graveyard out there. If there's so much money to be had, why are these boundless riches left unattended?
Because the risk is too high and the rewards are meh. They could make rewards 10 times higher in WH space it wouldn't make a difference. IMO no local + cloaky ships are a killer since all you can do is anomalies and anyone with a half-brains knows how to use the d-scan. No tellers like local or combat probes makes pve activities sucidal.
Making w-holes harder to close behind you so that casual wormholes dwellers might be able to call friends for help is a step in the right direction. But it will definitely need more work. When you know you WILL lose the ship no matter what you do and no matter how careful you are then it's just not worth doing it, and higher rewards can't fix that. That's how people get killed in null: they get too confident and eventually make a mistake someone will exploit to his own advantage. The first step is the ability to make people feel safe and somehow they have to have the tools to be safe so that this feeling emerges. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
378
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:37:00 -
[500] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Durzel wrote:I think this is a good change to be honest, and will shake things up a bit, which of course people will hate irrationally (though good comments have been made)
The elephant in the room with this, and rage rolling, seems to be that people have a problem with the idea that their fleet actually has to be on standby for a fight, rather than "listening on TS, playing DOTA, ping me if you roll into some bears".
If people are actually rage rolling for a fight, as is suggested, then presumably they have people ready anyway? So they're unaffected by this change - albeit taking an extra minute or so per hole to get caps back to jump range.
Smaller entities punished for not having numbers available to support their caps jumping? It's hard to believe people are saying this po-faced. It's not unfair that a support fleet sold have to be available to support caps, it's what you'd expect to be required! Certainly CCP doesn't think it balanced that one guy can roll holes with 2-3 alts with negligible risk without even having to worry about support.
Then again that's the other elephant in the room: people who currently close up their holes solo to bear and sensing that plsystyle becoming riskier or - God forbid - having to involve/require other people arguing against the change. Right. No. We dont need to be super active like ppl in null standing by for whatever sheep order. why cant we listen to music, play DOTA or anything!? Who are you to tell us? IF you roll for fight, you have fleet ready. WE roll for PvE, so we are what? Forbidden, should we gtfo? I dont see the point. And smaller - we are. Like 8 people. We dont have numbers to pull uneasy fights just so w can spawn 10km from hole with battleships ( we cant use anything bigger then orca in 4-4). What you suggest is to form big blocks, so I smell null living guy here without any idea how WHs work. I wonder why everybody wants to kill small groups, who are providing content, so bad. I also direct you to another similar post Jack Marshal wrote:As a Small group, who is tired of nul-sec and the low sec blob wars we have enjoyed the wormhole , the jump range will leave us defenseless against blob, and will kill the content in the game for the small groups. CCP definitely wants more blob's to advertise on youtube. When this goes in to effect, since we will be POS spinning most of the time we are setting up a minecraft and Dayz Server. To kill time until we get tired of playing for a game we cant do anything with anymore. Contact me in game for the Server address's as your spinning in you POS.
Anyone know any good online games, because this one is going to start sucking perdy soon
I seriously doubt youll understand but it is worth a try, for the blind. If you're genuinely 8 people you have no business using caps period. In any other part of space in the game you'd be punished for lack of support and it would be unsustainable, but in W-space because everyone knows the mechanics you can just roll hostiles out in near total safety. If you're 8 guys in a lower class wormhole, don't use Orcas blindly I guess? Use combat ships instead, or just suck it up that you don't have enough numbers to close out all your holes. You're not entitled to PVE risk free in wormholes, no one is.
Him say play like me or you're dumb. You need to conform so he feels comfortable (sarcasm).
I'll flip the coin on this one. You large guys should probably move to LS. Drama and forum fights aside - SYJ was at least smart enough to realize they outgrew wh. They moved to where they can play the way they like. Call them out on all the crap you like.... at least they had the decency to move to where their desired play style is located instead of trying to morph wh mechanics to their needs. So Props to SYJ for doing the right thing. If some of you other larger folks really feel the need to play w/ big fish only.... Go to the big pond and play where the big fish play. |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
941
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:42:00 -
[501] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Funny really, those who live in wormholes choose to do so, those who do not live in wormholes want them not to.
Seems legit.
Why you have to live their? Who said so? It was designed as unihabited space. And as many others things in EVE were left undeveloped. Somewhat different farming ground, that is. Instead of creating it in explorer's paradise full of deadly traps and unpredictable environment challenges, CCP went - as always - the easies way. Just add some red crossed here and there, make them not so stupid as other croses and all be ok. This is the problem, as I see it. You found the way to live their, despite of initial design? I bow to you, keep on a good work. But I simply don't care as to me the ability to live here isn't so important. I'm more like explorer, and somewhat less carebear or pvpeer.
I suggest you read Fozzies dev blog. This was fully addressed, you might find it contradicts your assumptions.
I choose to live in a vibrant and exciting environment, there are some good changes suggested, most need a little tweaking, and players with experience are giving good feedback to assist in this process.
This individual idea however is universally regarded by all classes of wormhole residents as destructive to the very vitality we enjoy and seek more of. Not every idea can always be good and this one is a real shocker. There are no redeeming features and will cause great long term harm and destruction of the very goal that is sought.
I encourage you to join a wormhole corporation and experience just how exciting fun and dangerous life is here. I believe that You will be very surprised and will feel as strongly as I do that there is a real gem to protect from those who would replace it with the best of intentions with just a bit of sparkly glass. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:45:00 -
[502] - Quote
Ray Kyonhe wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Funny really, those who live in wormholes choose to do so, those who do not live in wormholes want them not to.
Seems legit.
Why you have to live their? Who said so? It was designed as unihabited space. And as many others things in EVE were left undeveloped. Somewhat different farming ground, that is. Instead of creating it in explorer's paradise full of deadly traps and unpredictable environment challenges, CCP went - as always - the easies way. Just add some red crossed here and there, make them not so stupid as other croses and all be ok. This is the problem, as I see it. You found the way to live their, despite of initial design? I bow to you, keep on a good work. But I simply don't care as to me the ability to live here isn't so important. I'm more like explorer, and somewhat less carebear or pvpeer.
apart from not living there and having truly bad ideas, how did you contribute here, bar good trolling? Go complain about nullsec plox. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
378
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:50:00 -
[503] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Shilalasar wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote: You dont have the battleships that often in low class yes, but time needed to clear sites is really low. Im not sure about melted drop rate, but C1-C3 yields crapton of wrecks to salvage.
Droprates are way lower, also just the escalation brings about as many wrecks than most C1-3 sites. Also you can do C5/6 homesites for 3-4 days wihtout having to rely on good statics. Here is an idea I-¦m throwing out there instead of jumprange: Make the mass of C5/6s more random. Not just 10% deviation but 50-60%. Since CCP just found the code for regeneration mass that shouldn-¦t be too hard. Good to know on the rates. Ive lived in C6 so I know, but I can tell we were capable of farming it all in single day :D but that depends if you feel brave enough to re-farm or just hope for new spawns. Also +1 on the mass variation. I mentioned that before too. ANd id give that to all wormholes. Its too predictable.
Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??
I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.
But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"? |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:56:00 -
[504] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??
I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.
But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"?
ive shortened the quote. Well, why we dont have wormhole keeping generator? So we can constatly flourish in single place. Much like in the trailer the WH collapsed, these do to. What I am saying is that some variation is nice. At least you wont do it half asleep :D |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
368
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 11:59:00 -
[505] - Quote
In the spirit of good fun and reasonable-ness, I've created a list of things I'd rather do outside of eve than hang out in w-space after this change: 1. Go to a catholic mass... those things are long. 2. Pick a fight with a professional boxer. 3. Have cancer. Too far, or not too far enough?
No but really, I'm glad you crafted an elegant dev blog after your community told you that you were way off base. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
942
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:01:00 -
[506] - Quote
Let me address the issue of predictability. The entire history of human civilisation has revolved around the concept of managing events, from discovering agriculture, to philosophy, medicine, to understanding the meaning of life and death and the concepts of an afterlife.
Humans learn to discover the patterns of nature and the flow of events, some patterns are hard to fathom, and take significant time and experience before one discovers the nature of things. some we have yet to discover, but there is a pattern to things that can be found eventually.
Now let us move to wormholes, the delight has been in discovering the underlying mystery and learning how to live in a difficult and hostile environment, one can never make it a safe place, but it is one where people have learnt to thrive.
Now people call for things to be driven by a random number generator, make things less predictable!
Now if that was a good idea in the real world we would all choose to live in a place where horrifically destructive weather rips through randomly at regular intervals destroying all you have built, where plagues come and kill ones children before they grow, where a simple glass of water may contain parasites that will blind you, send you mad and leave you a husk praying for death.
Funnily enough, people in the real world migrated away from such places given any choice at all.
And this would somehow encourage more people into wormhole space?
Thought not. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:10:00 -
[507] - Quote
Noxisia Arkana wrote:In the spirit of good fun and reasonable-ness, I've created a list of things I'd rather do outside of eve than hang out in w-space after this change: 1. Go to a catholic mass... those things are long. 2. Pick a fight with a professional boxer. 3. Have cancer. Too far, or not too far enough?
No but really, I'm glad you crafted an elegant dev blog after your community told you that you were way off base. The elegant Dev Blog was crafted after folks witnessed the changes on SiSi, unannounced, and called the CCP Devs for the betrayal, openly and with great enthusiasm. The Dev Blog tries to make this Charlie-Fox scenario less about what they are doing to those of us that reject the Nullsec politics and the highsec grindfests, and more about what they can do to generate more headaches for those who chose an exclusionary existence to joining the CFC and parking ourselves in null to pay billions in rent every month to folks we don't want anything to do with, them and their 90% TiDi way of life. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
378
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:10:00 -
[508] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??
I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.
But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"?
ive shortened the quote. Well, why we dont have wormhole keeping generator? So we can constatly flourish in single place. Much like in the trailer the WH collapsed, these do to. What I am saying is that some variation is nice. At least you wont do it half asleep :D
Oh, YOU feel some variation is nice.
So I think this wonderful mechanic that has brought years of exciting gameplay is nice as is. Even though I'm clearly superior to you in all respects, I'll lower the value of my opinion to the paltry value of yours, thus our opinions cancel one another out. Now that we've cancelled each other out it appears that 60 pages (both threadnaughts) of fact based discussion indicate this change is bad.
Don't get me wrong.... I truly respect your feelings. This thread is more about facts. |
Khazuru Sharvas
Algol Science Department
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:11:00 -
[509] - Quote
I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).
To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.
The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.
edit: spelling correction |
Arestris
Aurora Armaments The Bastion
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:15:00 -
[510] - Quote
All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live. Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.
Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.
There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.
Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys. |
|
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
369
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:18:00 -
[511] - Quote
Khazuru Sharvas wrote:I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).
To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.
The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.
edit: spelling correction
I hear what you're saying but this invalidates a huge amount of play-styles. I know that when I'm running sites I don't invite a gank by leaving wormholes open. Now when I'm rolling a static, I certainly expect to catch someone mining gas, running PI, or maybe in a site... and I know if I'm crafty - I can grab 'em.
It has been said, but this kills small corps and just adds so much more work to an already 'work' intensive system... where's the fun here? I thought we were wasting our life playing a game? Things that stop being fun, people stop doing.
mistake 1 - asking for wh content. Mistake 2 - trying to provide feedback on said wh content. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
370
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:20:00 -
[512] - Quote
Arestris wrote:All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live. Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.
Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.
There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.
Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.
I'm sorry, I forget are there more bears in nullsec or w-space? |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:21:00 -
[513] - Quote
Khazuru Sharvas wrote:I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).
To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.
The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.
edit: spelling correction What you are asking for is greater risk for the potential of zero reward. Running sites in a wormhole isn't like ratting in nullsec. The ISk doesn't just magically appear in my wallet. If the loot doesn't get collected and make it to highsec, there is no income, no POS fuel, and therefore no POS or lifestyle in the W-space anymore. What you are telling us is that generating income need to exponentially increase the risk in a wormhole, without any increase in reward. Yes, that seems fair and reasonable. This means you advocate players leaving W-space for K-space and the (relative) stability it provides. Thanks for making that clear. Now go back to your NPC station, sit in it and spin. You obviously know nothing of the challenges of living without that NPC teat to suckle. |
Freddie Merrcury
Daktaklakpak.
124
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:21:00 -
[514] - Quote
Arestris wrote:All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live. Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.
Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.
There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.
Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.
0/10
no eben trole
Odyssey scanner is the root of the carebear problem, not a lack of some unnecessary RNG. I been kicked out of better homes than this. |
Khazuru Sharvas
Algol Science Department
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:28:00 -
[515] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Khazuru Sharvas wrote:I lived in WH space for the majority of my time in EVE and have experienced life in small corps (3 guys) as well as in big corps (ATZ).
To me it seems like CCP wants to prevent people from sealing themselves off while doing WH-stuff like PVE, thus reducing risk. If that is the case, perhaps a different approach could lead to the desired effect. As long as Sleepers get shot (or PVE is done) in a WH system the chance of getting additional wormholes leading into the system could be increased. Thus the longer (or the more) PVE is done in a system, the more likely other people will find your system and may catch you during PVE. Therefore the risk while doing PVE would become higher and together with the K162-Signature-Appearence-Change this could lead to a higher risk of conflict when trying to do safe PVE.
The core mechanics of wormholes could be left untouched and people who try to find content could continue to do so, while those people who just live in WH space to make money with low risk would have to be more careful.
edit: spelling correction What you are asking for is greater risk for the potential of zero reward. Running sites in a wormhole isn't like ratting in nullsec. The ISk doesn't just magically appear in my wallet. If the loot doesn't get collected and make it to highsec, there is no income, no POS fuel, and therefore no POS or lifestyle in the W-space anymore. What you are telling us is that generating income need to exponentially increase the risk in a wormhole, without any increase in reward. Yes, that seems fair and reasonable. This means you advocate players leaving W-space for K-space and the (relative) stability it provides. Thanks for making that clear. Now go back to your NPC station, sit in it and spin. You obviously know nothing of the challenges of living without that NPC teat to suckle.
I don't say that it is too easy to make money and that there is no risk in doing PVE in wormholes. My point is that it seems to me that CCP does think so, because they want to increase the risk of getting rid of dangerous wormholes. If their goal is to increase the risk of doing PVE (which is not a goal I would support), then my suggestion would be more to the point than changing the core mechanics. But only IF that is their goal ... maybe I am getting it wrong, but changing the core mechanics to increase risk just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
95
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:28:00 -
[516] - Quote
Arestris wrote:All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live. Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.
Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.
There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.
Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys.
And this post comes from a 0.0 carebear who only kills custom Offices or whelping other ships completely outnumbered!?!
0/10 |
Moloney
Mass Effect Enterprises Dark Knights of Eden
70
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:28:00 -
[517] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).
CCP, You need to listen to this man. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:39:00 -
[518] - Quote
Khazuru Sharvas wrote:I don't say that it is too easy to make money and that there is no risk in doing PVE in wormholes. My point is that it seems to me that CCP does think so, because they want to increase the risk of getting rid of dangerous wormholes. If their goal is to increase the risk of doing PVE (which is not a goal I would support), then my suggestion would be more to the point than changing the core mechanics. But only IF that is their goal ... maybe I am getting it wrong, but changing the core mechanics to increase risk just doesn't seem to be a good idea to me. Ah, that makes more sense. Sorry if I read too much into your previous statement. A little punchy here, so my inner demons get typed out more.
I don't understand why CCP feels like there is no risk. Perhaps wormhole residents are just getting better at loss prevention and overall safety during PVE operations? I'm not sure this is true. There is a great video of one of our carriers from my C5 corp getting ganked, along with our Noctis with a while night's loot in it, and this took the group around 15 minutes to complete both kills. That wasn't a small loss for having a 20 man gang jumps us, and the only reason more didn't get caught was the site was mostly complete, so the other capitals were off grid already. We use players to monitor the system pretty religiously, combat probes out, someone reships we get a cautionary note over voice comms of a new ship in system. If we didn't run such careful safety protocols, we'd likely lose a lot more ships while doing our one night a week of PVE content. The other 5-6 we come online and go looking for the good fights, cause what else do you do with all that ISK, eh?
|
Alicia Stormbringer
xLegion of the dammedx. Moose Alliance
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:41:00 -
[519] - Quote
Why are all the changes made to promote pvp there's plenty of places to find that if you want in eve without forcing it on everyone |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
943
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:44:00 -
[520] - Quote
Arestris wrote:All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live. Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.
Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.
There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.
Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys. Interesting..... You seem to have a rather strange and unusual attitude to wormholes, apart from the fact that your comments have a stark disconnect with reality, I am really curious as to where these rather quaint ideas come from?
Now I wonder if this is part of the current meta to portray wormholes as a risk free environment, full of lazy risk averse players that would benefit from a good dose of null sec mechanics, but It seems a little to disjointed for that.
So with that in mind, I suggest you investigate and read a little about wormholes, it may clear up your misconceptions. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:46:00 -
[521] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??
I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.
But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"?
ive shortened the quote. Well, why we dont have wormhole keeping generator? So we can constatly flourish in single place. Much like in the trailer the WH collapsed, these do to. What I am saying is that some variation is nice. At least you wont do it half asleep :D Oh, YOU feel some variation is nice. So I think this wonderful mechanic that has brought years of exciting gameplay is nice as is. Even though I'm clearly superior to you in all respects, I'll lower the value of my opinion to the paltry value of yours, thus our opinions cancel one another out. Now that we've cancelled each other out it appears that 60 pages (both threadnaughts) of fact based discussion indicate this change is bad. Don't get me wrong.... I truly respect your feelings. This thread is more about facts.
Uh oh. Misunderstood but okay. WHen you lower again, I am agaisnt this change. What I am saying is that mass in WHs should be more varied, thats all. I live in WH for years.
But lawl on your response, made me smile ;)
|
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
95
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:50:00 -
[522] - Quote
Alicia Stormbringer wrote:Why are all the changes made to promote pvp there's plenty of places to find that if you want in eve without forcing it on everyone
I know this is now a typical reply to such a question, but: Because it is an MMO Game.
I like those other changes a lot coming to WH comunity. Nothing against having more WH Connections or being forced to pay even more attention again to DS, etc., but this mass-jumprange idea is just increasing work and risk without providing anything positive to be honest on the long run. Waiting on wormholes for somebody to jump through without a reasonable chance to escape is boring like hell! It's like Gatecamping, just even more boring.
Sorry CCP, but I seldomly commenting patches / devblogs as I am usually one of this "adapt or die" peoples and so far I could adapt most of the times, but this change in it's current form will be just bad I am quite sure and I have explained before why I think so. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 12:54:00 -
[523] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:Alicia Stormbringer wrote:Why are all the changes made to promote pvp there's plenty of places to find that if you want in eve without forcing it on everyone I know this is now a typical reply to such a question, but: Because it is an MMO Game. I like those other changes a lot coming to WH comunity. Nothing against having more WH Connections or being forced to pay even more attention again to DS, etc., but this mass-jumprange idea is just increasing work and risk without providing anything positive to be honest on the long run. Waiting on wormholes for somebody to jump through without a reasonable chance to escape is boring like hell! It's like Gatecamping, just even more boring. Sorry CCP, but I seldomly commenting patches / devblogs as I am usually one of this "adapt or die" peoples and so far I could adapt most of the times, but this change in it's current form will be just bad I am quite sure and I have explained before why I think so.
Watching DS and 2 holes is demanding if you multibox. With no local, even more fun. Whilst on these great changes, why not give nullsec 60 second delay on newcomer to system? :) |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
118
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:00:00 -
[524] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Verse Askold wrote:this forces smaller groups to become bigger, but with this change no one will want to join WH groups anymore(good old risk vs. reward calc.) and as a result smaller groups will either dissapear or move in together with other smaller groups to form bigger groups or or join bigger ones which will in the end lead to quite some bigger entities but no fights since they live in 30 out of 2498 j-space systems and will never connect to each other except someone ragerolls...oh wait...
imho it will just make w-space less populated than it already is and i cant think that this is the intention you have for your change do you?
I just dont get these posts... We regularly PVE in PVP fit fleets... WH space will be a PVPers dream... Lots of ISK and PVP as only PVPers and supported carebears will live there!
You're also in a 100 man corp, no one has ever heard of.... |
Shaklu
Mass Effect Enterprises Dark Knights of Eden
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:06:00 -
[525] - Quote
-1: This is anti-PVE, and PVE is already struggling seriously in EVE
In the Dev blog you state this will make it harder to "rage roll" and that it should only make it harder for PVP corps. PVP corps don't care at all that it takes slightly more time, and they usually have huge fleets or at least pvp fitted ships ready to rock and roll. This will affect PVE corps and small corps only.
Larger corps won't care at all, they have big fleets to support. Small corps will get bumped and lose ships while trying to secure their Home system.
Terrible for smaller corps or PVE Awesome for PVP
BAD |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:07:00 -
[526] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Now people call for things to be driven by a random number generator, make things less predictable!
Because people actually run from all these predictable and controled environments into the game worlds. Into futuristic universe, full of thrilling discoveries and adventures they can engage in while throwing out all the risk considerations and fears to lost their future/health/life; explore deep space hiding numerous secrets. Well, at least advertisments promise us so. What actually are there is sophisticated "farm to be able to brawl" concepts with casual tools like dscan, local chat and probes in its current implementation, removing all the flavor and killing atmosphere of space adventure.
So yes, I would like to see more authenthity, much, much more randomness and more variety (and NOT variety coming out of different kinds of pew pew) - to make at least WH space, initially designed as place where you should delve into the unknown, to serve its purpose, and not become another ratting safe haven. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
76
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:14:00 -
[527] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Ray Kyonhe wrote:Chev Alsar wrote: This means these smaller groups, who would normally log on scout and close holes before PVE'ing will now log on, scout the hole and log off. There is no maybe when it comes to whether they will lose their rolling ships. They will lose them and the hole will remain open.
It's a risk/profit game, what's wrong with it? If they can't tolerate risk/cover expenses, someone more capable/tolerant will take their place. WHs still produce insane amount of profits, they won't stay unattended. And you needn't to live there actually, it was designed as a place for expeditions in the first place. If you can't adapt to living there, then revert to simply visiting occasionally. You seem to have no idea how many empty C5 and C6 wormholes are out there with 30+ combat anomalies in them. It's like a graveyard out there. If there's so much money to be had, why are these boundless riches left unattended?
Perhaps no one wants to venture into C5/C6 territory for fear of being ragerolled out of existence... |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
210
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:17:00 -
[528] - Quote
as a nullsec toon I can echo the goon+pets sentiment (shocking I know) in saying this is a great change for nullsec er I mean wormholes, right...
as an ex-wh player that might actually one day want to return to wh, this change will completely kill any meaningful wh life.
basically this change if added to the patch will change the focus of the patch from beeing a wh patch to making it clear who this patch is really for: nullsec.
the frig holes already point distressingly how much this is catering to cfc harpy fleets and other nullsec fleets (bagged 6bill in kills in a single night in my stiletto in an inty fleet)
while I would like to say that you shouldn't listen to null power blocks lile cfc on these changes, that would be a fools wish.
|
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CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
10964
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:18:00 -
[529] - Quote
Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:24:00 -
[530] - Quote
Witchway wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Verse Askold wrote:this forces smaller groups to become bigger, but with this change no one will want to join WH groups anymore(good old risk vs. reward calc.) and as a result smaller groups will either dissapear or move in together with other smaller groups to form bigger groups or or join bigger ones which will in the end lead to quite some bigger entities but no fights since they live in 30 out of 2498 j-space systems and will never connect to each other except someone ragerolls...oh wait...
imho it will just make w-space less populated than it already is and i cant think that this is the intention you have for your change do you?
I just dont get these posts... We regularly PVE in PVP fit fleets... WH space will be a PVPers dream... Lots of ISK and PVP as only PVPers and supported carebears will live there! You're also in a 100 man corp, no one has ever heard of....
LOL love the trolling... You will know us eventually. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
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Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:24:00 -
[531] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.
no wonder with ppl bashin you so hard. Also post above your explains pretty much the feeling of my corp. |
Arestris
Aurora Armaments The Bastion
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:27:00 -
[532] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Arestris wrote:All those crying and why? Mainly coz, if this change comes, you can't no longer life your carebear WH-Live. Acutally rolling is a nearly riskless and fast way to avoid any situation that could maybe dangerous for you.
Hole to ratting / mining system? Kill a ratter or miner and and while still loling over the 250mio mackinaw kill, roll the hole before they can formup anything. Anyone has found the exit? No prop, roll the hole and be long gone before they have the smallest chance to bring something up, no risk at all for you.
There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.
Sry, but it's more than overdue to change something on this carebear mechanism we actually have there. Nothing wrong with a bit more risk for u guys. Interesting..... You seem to have a rather strange and unusual attitude to wormholes, apart from the fact that your comments have a stark disconnect with reality, I am really curious as to where these rather quaint ideas come from? Now I wonder if this is part of the current meta to portray wormholes as a risk free environment, full of lazy risk averse players that would benefit from a good dose of null sec mechanics, but It seems a little too disjointed for that. So with that in mind, I suggest you investigate and read a little about wormholes, it may clear up your misconceptions.
I never said it's riskfree at all, but at least the aspect of riskfree rolling away before a serious conflict can develope is completly true!
And this is part of nothing but my own humble opinion.
Fluffi Flaffi wrote: And this post comes from a 0.0 carebear who only kills custom Offices or whelping other ships completely outnumbered!?! 0/10
So, a simple profile/killboard-flame is all u can answer? I'm totally disappointed. I could tell you, how wrong you are ... I could, but I don't do, coz it doesn't matter on this topic at all, what I do and I owe you no accountable. |
Wingzero Mileghere
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:30:00 -
[533] - Quote
This change can be both good and bad but I see mostly negative effects from it for hunters this will cause more kills from hole rollers (who doesn't enjoy orca kills) this will also cause massive chains to be scouted out because of the higher difficulty of hole rolling and because of the higher number of K162 connections so in that turn it can be good as well for both PvP and PvE
but for those looking for content by rolling the hole either for farming reasons or looking for kills because the closest active hole is 10 jumps down the chain or the connections go to care bear corps that log at the first sign of PvP it will be a bad change especially for the smaller class wormhole corps really anything less than a C5 this will be a bad thing for farming people will still do it but it will just make it harder on them to do so also with higher risk and that will affect 2 things negatively the first which is isk generation for those corps and higher losses on top of the lower isk flow the only positive thing I can see coming from this is higher prices on sleeper salvage because of the higher risk and the lower amount coming from W space in general
so yes for PvP this will be a good thing and it will be harder on the care bears to stay safe as well but it will make farming harder which makes it harder to be able to PvP in the first place
So the mass causing bigger ships to be sent further makes sense but I think the distances need re worked a bit for this reason or prices of blue loot needs to go up to make up for not being able to farm as much in the lower class holes |
Orange Aideron
Blue-Fire
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:40:00 -
[534] - Quote
+1
Shake the Ant Farm!
I think we'll adapt. Here's why:
WH's are hard. That's why we conquered them. They challenged us, so we made them work for us.
Do these changes have an effect on WH life? of course they do. Will there be a mass exodus from WHs because of the changes? I doubt it. Just as before, we will figure out new ways to roll, and will probably figure out new ways to counter roll.
In fact the only thing I see most effected is solo expo and small cap expo fleets. And that has been an op ISK making venture in the game for a long time (we'd all admit that).
I say bring it on the changes. We will adapt. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:40:00 -
[535] - Quote
What if...
The practice of rage rolling is done generally by large groups to generate content at the players discretion. CCP has stated that their desire is to make the practice of hole control more dangerous. Additional changes to wormhole mechanics are increasing wormhole connectivity including nearly unclosable holes
I wondered not so long ago about why wormhole entities only ever occupy a single hole.
Certainly logistics of managing disconnected entities play a part but as a group seeking PvP as many larger C5/C6 groups do, wouldn't occupying more holes equate to more content? In the current game, I see why this is undesirable. Too many small, empty chains and no one in their right mind would spread your capital ships needed to roll holes out across multiple systems. But...
If wormhole connectivity is increasing due to increased random spawns and the frigate sized holes, will wormhole chains now be deep enough to allow for a large wormhole corporation to spread beyond a single system effectively? Will you occupy multiple holes simply to enjoy a series of deep wormhole chains? Will instead of rage rolling from one system, could you instead fan out from multiple as small gangs naturally formed around similar playtimes, timezones, or players while maintaining a home "carebear" system for PvE that can be controlled when a fleet is formed using modified, riskier, hole closing?
A wormhole environment where the use of capitals for PvP isn't the norm due to the risk of random spawn distances from holes but instead smaller fleets of smaller ships? Hasn't this been something that CCP has been working towards in other areas of the game? Smaller ships means more accessibility to pilots More accessibility means more people More people means a healthier wormhole space...
Something perhaps to consider
|
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
785
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:42:00 -
[536] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:Ray Kyonhe wrote:It's a risk/profit game, what's wrong with it? If they can't tolerate risk/cover expenses, someone more capable/tolerant will take their place. WHs still produce insane amount of profits, they won't stay unattended. And you needn't to live there actually, it was designed as a place for expeditions in the first place. If you can't adapt to living there, then revert to simply visiting occasionally. You seem to have no idea how many empty C5 and C6 wormholes are out there with 30+ combat anomalies in them. It's like a graveyard out there. If there's so much money to be had, why are these boundless riches left unattended? Perhaps no one wants to venture into C5/C6 territory for fear of being ragerolled out of existence... Ray - you don't live in wormholes, do you? I can't tell because your posting with (what looks like) an industry alt.
Living in c5/c6 is no easy task. Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:49:00 -
[537] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:What if...
The practice of rage rolling is done generally by large groups to generate content at the players discretion. CCP has stated that their desire is to make the practice of hole control more dangerous. Additional changes to wormhole mechanics are increasing wormhole connectivity including nearly unclosable holes
I wondered not so long ago about why wormhole entities only ever occupy a single hole.
Certainly logistics of managing disconnected entities play a part but as a group seeking PvP as many larger C5/C6 groups do, wouldn't occupying more holes equate to more content? In the current game, I see why this is undesirable. Too many small, empty chains and no one in their right mind would spread your capital ships needed to roll holes out across multiple systems. But...
If wormhole connectivity is increasing due to increased random spawns and the frigate sized holes, will wormhole chains now be deep enough to allow for a large wormhole corporation to spread beyond a single system effectively? Will you occupy multiple holes simply to enjoy a series of deep wormhole chains? Will instead of rage rolling from one system, could you instead fan out from multiple as small gangs naturally formed around similar playtimes, timezones, or players while maintaining a home "carebear" system for PvE that can be controlled when a fleet is formed using modified, riskier, hole closing?
A wormhole environment where the use of capitals for PvP isn't the norm due to the risk of random spawn distances from holes but instead smaller fleets of smaller ships? Hasn't this been something that CCP has been working towards in other areas of the game? Smaller ships means more accessibility to pilots More accessibility means more people More people means a healthier wormhole space...
Something perhaps to consider
more accesibility means more people. Right. Passing? Or staying? For I cannot see how making it harder to roll and with more statics, how can that add, apart from mroe danger to small groups.
Keep in mind plz, its not nullsec. Ive seen 8 char wormhole group. Basically these changed deprive them of their playing space. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:50:00 -
[538] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.
So based on this your doing this change no matter what?
Edit: forum ate half of it |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
944
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:52:00 -
[539] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.
Thank you fozzie, with all the proposals there is much to read and digest, and naturally it is quite natural to take time to come to clear conclusions and adjustments to make them the best you can, respectfully though, on this one proposal, many believe that it is so misconceived that it is not worth considering in any form, and no adjustments will make a good proposal from it. You may of course completely rework it in such a way that we are all completely surprised.
There are wormhole people on this thread who are widely respected and you have a phenomenal opportunity to gain insight into the mechanics and operation, that would be rare to find elsewhere. I hope you take the best advantage of their experience and insight.
Good luck with this, but as you will read, the concept of making hole rolling is quite refined currently, we are working with tools that are less than ideal, and that making things more troublesome and random will only reduce vitality and activity. Hard difficult to discover mechanics, that are worked for and eventually mastered are the hallmarks of wormhole space, introducing luck and random survival/risk features are not what has allowed people to thrive in conditions that are so challenging, by all means give us a difficult new mechanic, that we need to puzzle over, and seek its secrets, just please do not give us a " you have 30%chance of all your capitals dying" feature There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
118
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 13:54:00 -
[540] - Quote
Orange Aideron wrote:In fact the only thing I see most effected is solo expo and small cap expo fleets. And that has been an op ISK making venture in the game for a long time (we'd all admit that).
yes, it would suck for those making boatloads of money. how about those times you drop capitals out a nullsec/lowsec to engage a larger fleet. now those caps are a significant distance from the return in a sector of space where not just one, but several capitals can be brought in as a counter at whatever range the opponents would like. if you take capitals into k-space after this change, you might as well just consider them lost because the chances of you not getting a cyno lit with a carrier 20km off the hole is about the same as Hard Knocks not pointing a carrier within ten jumps from any of our exits.
And that's honestly the biggest issue I have with this change, it doesn't just affect the bears. it doesn't just affect the pvp rage rollers, it affects everyone and in almost all situations. all of this brought about with less than 2 weeks of public testing? to that regard how does one test this in the first place, all our homes are removed every time they copy the servers, how can they possibly expect a solid test of this new feature when we can't even test it proper. |
|
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
785
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:00:00 -
[541] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Sentamon wrote:The Hammer is coming wormhollers, flee while you can to SOV with the other bears. Says the professional forum alt in an NPC corp. Flee while you can, the rejuvenating fires of war are coming to your systems and will drive out the timid and weak and replace them with the motivated and strong. The ISK Fountain Era is over, for you at least. Scream all you want, but in space, no one can hear you. Bob hears us, and that's all that matters. Every time you jerks have stuck your fingers in it, you've pulled back stumps. Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:01:00 -
[542] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote: more accesibility means more people. Right. Passing? Or staying? For I cannot see how making it harder to roll and with more statics, how can that add, apart from mroe danger to small groups.
Keep in mind plz, its not nullsec. Ive seen 8 char wormhole group. Basically these changed deprive them of their playing space.
I know. I run a relatively small wormhole group when it comes to active players at any one time. I don't think it is depriving us of our space (other than maybe our C4 static being undesirable). Anyone of our size living in a C5/C6 where these changes have the most impact really shouldn't be there, at least that is how it appears from this side. They probably should be in a different class of wormhole.
I was speaking specifically to ragerolling but yes, there is impact to these changes for groups of all sizes. Will it kill us as a small group needing to roll a hole to PvE. No. It will make me think twice about rolling it myself with an alt in an Orca and a BS looking for solo PvE as I sometimes do. That's fine. I will simply adjust my game or learn to take on the extra risk and adapt accordingly.
And again, the fear of encounting a large WH group causing me to log off isn't any different before or after these changes. I fear a large group because I don't have the numbers. If I don't have the numbers, I almost never try to roll the hole anyways. Why risk the ships? We simply are used to being pushed out of our "game" from time to time. The increased connectivity will just mean perhaps I do more PvP than I do now which is minimal due to the shallow chains. We're not a ragerolling PvP group so we take what we can get. Seems to me that we may be getting more often which isn't a bad situation. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:04:00 -
[543] - Quote
Arestris wrote:Fluffi Flaffi wrote: And this post comes from a 0.0 carebear who only kills custom Offices or whelping other ships completely outnumbered!?! 0/10
So, a simple profile/killboard-flame is all u can answer? I'm totally disappointed. I could tell you, how wrong you are ... I could, but I don't do, coz it doesn't matter on this topic at all, what I do and I owe you no accountable.
What else should I seriously have replied to your post, which had honestly no substance.
Just this simple sentence from you
Quote:There maybe some wh-corps, who roll to find PvP, but mainly they roll to find some "victims" and then roll again to got away before a serious situation can develop.
showed me that you seem to have no real idea of wormhole living, just guessing and therefore trolling. Combined with your killboard I think I have a small idea of what you are doing. Every opinion is welcome, but your first post was nearly close to just trolling with this Background. Add something with substance and we can discuss. |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:06:00 -
[544] - Quote
CCP,
I love playing Chess, so I value Momentum and Development in any game, and I believe that Eve could benefit from these principles.
General Values:
- Exploration Pilots should excel at Wormhole Navigation, specifically wormhole emergence.
- Movement and Momentum throughout Eve should be empowered, especially for exploration pilots.
- The Riskier/More Profitable the Space, the Harder it should be to Control that Space, specifically, Entrances and Exits
- Ships that Specialize in Mobility/Navigation Should Excel at getting through camps.
Proposed Axes for Determining Distance from Wormholes / Gates:
- Ship Mass
- Ship Role
- Navigation Skill, (Astrometrics)
- Wormhole Class
- Security of System - Would only apply, if implemented for gates.
- Faction/Sov Standing - Would only apply, if implemented for gates.
- Combinations of all the above.
- Random Combination of all of the above
For Wormhole Space
- Emergence Bonuses Scale with Astrometrics Skills.
- Ship Mass gives bonus to emergence distance, scaling with Wormhole Class
- The Lower the Wormhole Class, Smaller Classes have additional emergence bonuses
- The Higher the Wormhole Class, Larger Classes have additional emergence bonuses
- Transport Ships / Freighters always have additional emergence bonuses.
- Transport Ships / Freighters have additional emergence bonuses.
|
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth
166
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:08:00 -
[545] - Quote
TL;DR DO NOT DO THE SPAWN DISTANCE CHANGE FOR WORMHOLE JUMPS!!!
Dear CCP,
i seriously have no idea why you came up with these changes to the spawn rates and more importantly the spawn distance based on mass. If these ideas came from a CSM i hope i didn't vote for him/her.
Do the wormhole community a favor and just remove the spawn-range-mass-relation non-sense from the list of changes (and the spawn rate changes of random wormholes and, while you are at it, the new wormhole type as well) and i will happily call it a good re-balance of w-space.
Reasons are all in this thread already, i am not going to repeat them all. Just the main one: This is going to badly hurt smaller groups (PVP as well as PVE focused ones) in w-space and drive them out eventually. And if just out of w-space and not Eve in general.
Cheers Gal
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Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
161
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:09:00 -
[546] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.
The best plan would be to leave the mechanics as it with regard to hole jumping, or put this mechanic on every jumpbrigde, cyno and titan bridge, afterall, these are man made wormholes to an extent. . . . . twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
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FireFrenzy
Satan's Unicorns
24
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Posted - 2014.08.07 14:10:00 -
[547] - Quote
Okay since Fozzie actually seems to read this thread (and isnGÇÖt just rumored to do so) let me jump on the threadnaught with my own personal experience.
Now I live in a small c4 corp, it isnGÇÖt much but itGÇÖs ours. We like our wormhole, it has a name, "the cardboard box" and it has a pretty skybox and itGÇÖs a big improvement over our old c2 (called Bob, no relation to His Divine Majesty).
Now we're a small corp who has recently had a bunch of brain drain to the bigger corps, but we have 5 guys left who actively play eve and love living in wormholes. Sure we have a few alts but itGÇÖs mostly our 5-7 guys in fleets.
We however live in a wormhole that doesnGÇÖt seem to spawn a lot of sites, we've gone WEEKS without even a single one spawning. So during that time we rolled the static religiously praised HIM when we found something with some good sites (didn't happen often) and the proceeded to burn the wormhole to the ground. Since our static is a c2 we donGÇÖt even really make any good money doing this but itGÇÖs fun to do **** in a group and if you play for a few hours you can make enough money to recoup your ammo money and make something on the side. (I personally sign over my share of the loot over to the corp whenever its less than 50 million which is 95% of the time since the corp needs POS fuel money)
I was talking to Corbexx on the changes to incursions and he seemed adamant wormholes should become MORE popular and hisec incursions needed to stop being (what he felt to be, i for the record do not agree) "risk free isk" so that more people would go wormholing. This however is incredibly likely to move out of the wormhole on a semi-permanent basis as there just isnt any content anymore. I canGÇÖt solo c4 sites without getting something goddamn shiny which would look great on killmails, and while I can afford to build something that shiney that I donGÇÖt want to hog all the sites in "Home". Since then the rest of my corp has no income, no content and no fun. So IGÇÖm reduced to running in our c2 static. Which means that when my buddies in a different timezone log on we have to roll the static, not because we donGÇÖt want to fight people, or because we are afraid of pvp, or for any other reason you might care to come up with. We have to roll the static so we can have some gameplay in a game we pay money to be allowed to play. This seems Goddamn ******** to me to begin with, but I get we were never intended to move into our home and live there long term, so I accept it as the price of doing business and not getting hotdropped by PL or whomever.
Now for myself this status means I spend a fucktonne of time living in high sec running home in a fast interceptor and a jump clone I keep in various spaces around New Eden so I can have all the pvp and wormhole fun I like without actually being bored silly most other times. Which leads to the weird position where someone who ostensibly lives in the most dangerous and lucrative space in eve actually lives in highsec and runs incursions by the dozen sites because, well, wormholes are boring! And Corbexx wonders why no one lives in wormholesGǪ :S
But to circle back around to the topic of this conversation, making it harder to roll the static directly affects my ability to play a game I pay money to play, makes me less likely to spend any time in our wormhole, less likely to want to even open a static, and HELLA more likely to just log in and then either burn straight back to K-Space where there is content to be had I can enjoy or just check the probe scanner go GÇ£Nope, I am not going to go mining since **** that ****GǪ And no combat sites so I guess IGÇÖll go play Skyrim insteadGǪGÇ¥ (and I donGÇÖt even LIKE skyrim)
Of course then thereGÇÖs the PVP side of the coin, we have in the past closed hostile wormholes but mainly because, well, our 10-15 guys (this was before the brain drain I mentioned earlier) really couldnGÇÖt sensibly fight, the name escapes me right now, the 25-45 guys I had on D on the other side. This happened 6 months ago so I might be misremembering, that said we have also quite often picked fights in the static or on our own side of the same connecting wormhole because we actually LIKE shooting people for the lulzies.
TLDR: Love Hyperion, love the new wormhole changes, love the c4 getting a second static, wish i knew what we were getting already, hate this part, will prolly spend less time in WHs will cause content decrease for all, THIS NEEDS TO NOT BE A THING. |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:11:00 -
[548] - Quote
Galmas wrote: \This is going to badly hurt smaller groups (PVP as well as PVE focused ones) in w-space and drive them out eventually. And if just out of w-space and not Eve in general.
Cheers Gal
What you are saying is not true if the bonuses in smaller class wormholes affect frigate warfare more favorably than battleship and capital class.
I am also very fond of frigate warfare in wormhole space--and would loathe the idea of capital ships having such huge advantages in our wormhole systems. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:14:00 -
[549] - Quote
Rivka wrote:Galmas wrote: \This is going to badly hurt smaller groups (PVP as well as PVE focused ones) in w-space and drive them out eventually. And if just out of w-space and not Eve in general.
Cheers Gal
What you are saying is not true if the bonuses in smaller class wormholes affect frigate warfare more favorably than battleship and capital class. I am also very fond of frigate warfare in wormhole space--and would loathe the idea of capital ships having such huge advantages in our wormhole systems.
he is writing the the mass-distance thread so I guess he is mainly talking about that issue, not the frigate WH. And if smaller wormholes are left because of that there is no frigate warfare.
If you want frigate warfare, there are plenty of options already in EvE, RvB, FW, etc. |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:15:00 -
[550] - Quote
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:
The best plan would be to leave the mechanics as it with regard to hole jumping, or put this mechanic on every jumpbrigde, cyno and titan bridge, afterall, these are man made wormholes to an extent. . . . .
To this extent, I think the same mechanics should apply to gates in low sec as well ...
I do think that ship roles, astrometrics skills, ship mass, and even standing should affect distance from emergence.
There should be less stability, and less means to control a system, where the system is more hostile and where it is more profitable. |
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epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
945
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:17:00 -
[551] - Quote
FireFrenzy wrote:Okay since Fozzie actually seems to read this thread (and isnGÇÖt just rumored to do so) let me jump on the threadnaught with my own personal experience.
Now I live in a small c4 corp, it isnGÇÖt much but itGÇÖs ours. We like our wormhole, it has a name, "the cardboard box" and it has a pretty skybox and itGÇÖs a big improvement over our old c2 (called Bob, no relation to His Divine Majesty).
Now we're a small corp who has recently had a bunch of brain drain to the bigger corps, but we have 5 guys left who actively play eve and love living in wormholes. Sure we have a few alts but itGÇÖs mostly our 5-7 guys in fleets.
We however live in a wormhole that doesnGÇÖt seem to spawn a lot of sites, we've gone WEEKS without even a single one spawning. So during that time we rolled the static religiously praised HIM when we found something with some good sites (didn't happen often) and the proceeded to burn the wormhole to the ground. Since our static is a c2 we donGÇÖt even really make any good money doing this but itGÇÖs fun to do **** in a group and if you play for a few hours you can make enough money to recoup your ammo money and make something on the side. (I personally sign over my share of the loot over to the corp whenever its less than 50 million which is 95% of the time since the corp needs POS fuel money)
I was talking to Corbexx on the changes to incursions and he seemed adamant wormholes should become MORE popular and hisec incursions needed to stop being (what he felt to be, i for the record do not agree) "risk free isk" so that more people would go wormholing. This however is incredibly likely to move out of the wormhole on a semi-permanent basis as there just isnt any content anymore. I canGÇÖt solo c4 sites without getting something goddamn shiny which would look great on killmails, and while I can afford to build something that shiney that I donGÇÖt want to hog all the sites in "Home". Since then the rest of my corp has no income, no content and no fun. So IGÇÖm reduced to running in our c2 static. Which means that when my buddies in a different timezone log on we have to roll the static, not because we donGÇÖt want to fight people, or because we are afraid of pvp, or for any other reason you might care to come up with. We have to roll the static so we can have some gameplay in a game we pay money to be allowed to play. This seems Goddamn ******** to me to begin with, but I get we were never intended to move into our home and live there long term, so I accept it as the price of doing business and not getting hotdropped by PL or whomever.
Now for myself this status means I spend a fucktonne of time living in high sec running home in a fast interceptor and a jump clone I keep in various spaces around New Eden so I can have all the pvp and wormhole fun I like without actually being bored silly most other times. Which leads to the weird position where someone who ostensibly lives in the most dangerous and lucrative space in eve actually lives in highsec and runs incursions by the dozen sites because, well, wormholes are boring! And Corbexx wonders why no one lives in wormholesGǪ :S
But to circle back around to the topic of this conversation, making it harder to roll the static directly affects my ability to play a game I pay money to play, makes me less likely to spend any time in our wormhole, less likely to want to even open a static, and HELLA more likely to just log in and then either burn straight back to K-Space where there is content to be had I can enjoy or just check the probe scanner go GÇ£Nope, I am not going to go mining since **** that ****GǪ And no combat sites so I guess IGÇÖll go play Skyrim insteadGǪGÇ¥ (and I donGÇÖt even LIKE skyrim)
Of course then thereGÇÖs the PVP side of the coin, we have in the past closed hostile wormholes but mainly because, well, our 10-15 guys (this was before the brain drain I mentioned earlier) really couldnGÇÖt sensibly fight, the name escapes me right now, the 25-45 guys I had on D on the other side. This happened 6 months ago so I might be misremembering, that said we have also quite often picked fights in the static or on our own side of the same connecting wormhole because we actually LIKE shooting people for the lulzies.
TLDR: Love Hyperion, love the new wormhole changes, love the c4 getting a second static, wish i knew what we were getting already, hate this part, will prolly spend less time in WHs will cause content decrease for all, THIS NEEDS TO NOT BE A THING.
This is a very good summation of many peoples current experience of small corps in lower class wormholes, please read and inwardly digest fozzie. You will also note that in spite of all the obstacles the poster WISHES to be able to be more engaged in wormhole life with their time. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth
166
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:20:00 -
[552] - Quote
Rivka wrote:Galmas wrote: \This is going to badly hurt smaller groups (PVP as well as PVE focused ones) in w-space and drive them out eventually. And if just out of w-space and not Eve in general.
Cheers Gal
What you are saying is not true if the bonuses in smaller class wormholes affect frigate warfare more favorably than battleship and capital class. I am also very fond of frigate warfare in wormhole space--and would loathe the idea of capital ships having such huge advantages in our wormhole systems.
I was referring to the changes to the jump mechanics. What you are referring to i don't know, sorry. Maybe you are in the wrong thread here or something. |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:21:00 -
[553] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
If you want frigate warfare, there are plenty of options already in EvE, RvB, FW, etc.
This logic doesn't follow. What are Class 1 wormholes for, if not for frigates?
New Players, especially explorers, etc, or pilots who specialize in frigates, love wormhole space.
Frigate piloting is by far the funnest "class" of ship to pilot.
So, it is the case that a "Sliding Scale," where larger class wormholes favor larger mass ships and give them bonuses to emergence from wormholes, and vice versa, would allow very distinct game play types in wormholes.
By sliding scale, of course, I mean that bonuses to emergency values are based on: astrometrics skills, ship mass, wormhole type, wormhole class, ship roles, so that lower class wormholes have a higher risk to invasions from smaller ships, and larger class wormholes are at greater risk to invasions by higher class ships.
Battleships, Dreadnaughts should NOT get advantages in lower class wormholes. |
kaimai
Die Elitaeren Brotherhood Of Silent Space
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:23:00 -
[554] - Quote
As low class w-space Hunter i think its a bad idea.
Because in some cases its gonna ruin my taktic to hunt down ppl who roll their hole. Most of the time i dont have enough support from my Corp to kill Battleships fast enough, 6.3km max, until they can jump back. So if they jump back an they are lucky, because if my phobos comes out 8,6km from the hole and the hostile Battleship 11.3 km on the opposite direction, that make 19.9 km, enough time to MJD to safty.
Just make w-space more lucrative in lower w-space and more ppl will come to get slaughtered. Fly safe o/ |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
30
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Posted - 2014.08.07 14:24:00 -
[555] - Quote
I like all the changes except this one.
I have lived in w space since they were brought into the game and have lived and fought in all Classes of w space.
My reasoning behind this i will list below
1. This change is great if you are the Corp Setting up a trap for someone to try and roll a connection. But for the corp wanting to roll it will Be less likely to attempt it and will just pos's up or Log off lessening the chance for a Fight.
We already have a hard time getting fights. How many times has your scout jumped into a wh scouted it and then the decision on how to get a fight Gets started and you base what you are going to commit to the fight by who's wh it is and the chance of your caps getting back home or if they will even bring a fight.
Losing a cap is not as big of deal now that i have been fighting with them and lost some. But to a corp in say a c5 or c6 with a lower class wh connection( ie1-4 ) Replacing that is much harder Due to having to wait for a null or low connection to get one back in your home system and with this they will be less likely to commit a cap to fight where they could win a fight if they did but chose not to because they can not get a advantage by massing a wh and making the attacker have to decide to go balls deep with caps or just try and fight with lower mass ships on a mass reduced wh.
this post below sums up all my other stuff so i wont go into that i will just quote it below
This is just a bad idea and i hope it can be removed as i would like to see more players in w space
Quote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away). |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:29:00 -
[556] - Quote
Rivka wrote: Battleships, Dreadnaughts should NOT get advantages in lower class wormholes.
Lol You have no wormhole experiance what so ever that is very clear now! |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:31:00 -
[557] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:
EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.
EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).
Exactly this ... Though, I think dreadnoughts should always have a hard time burning back. ...
Frigates / exploration ships / interceptors, etc, should always land further away ...
Larger class ships should not get these bonuses. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:31:00 -
[558] - Quote
Rivka wrote:Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
If you want frigate warfare, there are plenty of options already in EvE, RvB, FW, etc.
This logic doesn't follow. What are Class 1 wormholes for, if not for frigates? New Players, especially explorers, etc, or pilots who specialize in frigates, love wormhole space. Frigate piloting is by far the funnest "class" of ship to pilot.
C1 are for frigates? Really. OMG. Have you ever been visiting a wormhole? Anyway I see the "logic doesn't follow", but you startet the frigate Thing and where I agree with you, that piloting frigates is a lot more fun than BS class or capitals that doesn't mean that if we both like it, anybody else do that as well.
And yes, at the moment Explorers like to explor wormhole space until they recognize they have nothing to do there because they can't do the Data / Relic Sites in in their CovertOps Frigate and if they are using ships like Stratios to clear C1/C2 sites the risk vs. reward it completely terrible and not worth any effort.
If this in future combines with get killed already at the entrance this will spread around and you will see not only less People living in wormholes, but also less People visiting w-space! I am quite sure about that point! |
Alabugin
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exit Strategy..
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:34:00 -
[559] - Quote
If this change is removed, and all the others kept - it will be the best patch EVER and probably boister population of EVE and WH's a lot.
As it stands now, this change being implemented in 90% disagreed upon, offers nothing interesting, and only causes headaches for both smaller and larger WH corps.
The reasoning has been covered before - please CCP remove this change, everything else is amazing!!
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
378
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:34:00 -
[560] - Quote
Alicia Stormbringer wrote:Why are all the changes made to promote pvp there's plenty of places to find that if you want in eve without forcing it on everyone
This isn't a pro pvp change. It increases the probability of ganking rolling ships. That's not pvp. The delay wh spawn until a ship jumps through inceases the possibility of ganking folks doing pve. That's not pvp either.
Don't white knight me here. I've been ganking everything I could for years. I'm just saying these mechanic changes ARE NOT pro pvp - they are pro ganking.
That being said, I agree that there are plenty of places in eve where you can jump though something and end up too far away to jump back without forcing it on wh mechanics.
The next logical step in wh ruination will be to have concord enforce agression timers on wh. Just think about it - things would be..... RISKIER. |
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Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:36:00 -
[561] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote: Lol You have no wormhole experiance what so ever that is very clear now!
It appears to me, that higher class ships would get advantages in lower class wormholes, should "landing" distances in wormholes be modified as proposed.
Perhaps I am misunderstanding Fozzie's chart... but it appears that higher mass ships would get an advantage to landing distance ...
So, for "wolf pack frigate corps" it becomes very difficult to defend against an incursion of larger class ships--especially with the constant 16 hour random wormhole.. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:41:00 -
[562] - Quote
Rivka wrote:unimatrix0030 wrote: Lol You have no wormhole experiance what so ever that is very clear now!
It appears to me, that higher class ships would get advantages in lower class wormholes, should "landing" distances in wormholes be modified as proposed. Perhaps I am misunderstanding Fozzie's chart... but it appears that higher mass ships would get an advantage to landing distance ... So, for "wolf pack frigate corps" it becomes very difficult to defend against an incursion of larger class ships--especially with the constant 16 hour random wormhole..
You know, that Capital Ships are not allowed to jump through wormholes leading into C1-C4, don't you? |
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:42:00 -
[563] - Quote
Onslaughtor wrote:I for one like this change. While it may seem detrimental to those who are very well integrated into the current system, I believe that is the point. This change makes rolling holes harder with only high-mass ships. In theory, this will lead to a pipe in wh space lasting longer as people are less likely to roll it. Also it makes jumping into fight and then just jumping out harder as you may spawn out of the already large 5km jump range. I think this is a good change as it creates challenges for smart players to overcome and utilize, and diversify the styles of dealing with wh space.
Well Sir you definitely haven't , done anything with a small group of guys in a wormhole or you must be used to flying in a large blob. Must be nice. With 5 or 6 guys online at a time It really makes it hard to do anything. if you cant "secure' your static. Its extremely risky to do when you have to do it under duress, racing, no holes, Hard knocks or any other **** fleet to you Static or connector to close it before they get enough people to burn down your cap and battleship your attempting to roll the hole, so you don't have to spin in your POS for the day. Even with locking people out anytime of a Day there could be a **** fleet **** rolling waiting to jump in on you. FYI when this happens we don't have a cyno to call in supers and welp an attacker, we also don't have a week of TIMERS to Amass Titains Suppers and 900 people. we have 1 timer and that is a POS timer. Challenges? seriously? Try adding content not retardation, how bout fixing up more POS management, or maybe the bookmarks
Note: Mind Craft and Dayz server will be open to WH people when this change comes
Wh space is the last place for a hand full of people to call "home" were they can defend it. Its ********, if you want more "PVP" in wormhole Add some Tech moons in black holes or something Give people a bigger reason to come in. The Fights are Great Win loose or draw, Tell me were else in eve you can use bhaalgorns, Triage carriers, and dreadnoughts on a daily basis with less then 20 people in a fight. Win loose or draw, those are Awesome fights. Even getting murdered by these large alliances, when running sites we still have a fight and go down biting clawing and scratching. Sir if you never knew this, you get to do a lot in a WH fight, Refitting, bumping, changing ships etc. It maybe a lot for you to understand but PVP can consist of more then F1 and ctrl Space.
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
378
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:43:00 -
[564] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: Too predicatable?? Who says it shouldn't be predictable??
I'm not the best role player, but here goes: We WARP spaceships through space, we have instant CLONES, we have JUMP CLONES, we can intentionally warp space/time and CYNO and BRIDGE fleets at will.
But you have decided we shouldn't be able to predict/dertermine a wh's useable mass? I'm not sure any logic can honestly be applied to this stuff. What is your basis for "too predictable"?
ive shortened the quote. Well, why we dont have wormhole keeping generator? So we can constatly flourish in single place. Much like in the trailer the WH collapsed, these do to. What I am saying is that some variation is nice. At least you wont do it half asleep :D Oh, YOU feel some variation is nice. So I think this wonderful mechanic that has brought years of exciting gameplay is nice as is. Even though I'm clearly superior to you in all respects, I'll lower the value of my opinion to the paltry value of yours, thus our opinions cancel one another out. Now that we've cancelled each other out it appears that 60 pages (both threadnaughts) of fact based discussion indicate this change is bad. Don't get me wrong.... I truly respect your feelings. This thread is more about facts. Uh oh. Misunderstood but okay. WHen you lower again, I am agaisnt this change. What I am saying is that mass in WHs should be more varied, thats all. I live in WH for years. But lawl on your response, made me smile ;)
Glad you smiled. I can't play eve while at work, but I can play forums. And even the forums should be fun for everyone.... well except for that one dude - he's a tool. He should never have fun doing anything. I hoped you smiled at the haddok to the back of Fozzies head as much as I hope the guy in the next cube actually does it. (non lethal haddok whacking of course). |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:43:00 -
[565] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:Rivka wrote:Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
If you want frigate warfare, there are plenty of options already in EvE, RvB, FW, etc.
This logic doesn't follow. What are Class 1 wormholes for, if not for frigates? New Players, especially explorers, etc, or pilots who specialize in frigates, love wormhole space. Frigate piloting is by far the funnest "class" of ship to pilot. C1 are for frigates? Really. OMG. Have you ever been visiting a wormhole? Edit: Honestly, I would accept that mass-jumprange idea immediately if they add this to every stargate and every Cyno and jumpbridge at the same time! That would be hell a lot of fun to see the reactions of those 0.0, lowsec and Hisec Players writing in this thread, but have no to nearly no idea what wormhole living means.
I agree that these changes should be applied to all stargates and jumpbridges.
Though I believe the function should be inverted so that smaller ships / faster ships, are thrown futher from the exit when they emerge(mass, astrometricsSkills, shipRole).
Yes, Wolf Rayet we have been very successful with frigates and new players ... especially with faction warfare players ... Not really certain why I seem to be the only one aware of this ???
It is a great way for new pilots to get involved in wormholes. |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
161
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:43:00 -
[566] - Quote
Alabugin wrote:If this change is removed, and all the others kept - it will be the best patch EVER and probably boister population of EVE and WH's a lot.
As it stands now, this change being implemented in 90% disagreed upon, offers nothing interesting, and only causes headaches for both smaller and larger WH corps.
The reasoning has been covered before - please CCP remove this change, everything else is amazing!!
Taking massive steps forward then jumping on a rocket backwards. twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:44:00 -
[567] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:Rivka wrote:unimatrix0030 wrote: Lol You have no wormhole experiance what so ever that is very clear now!
It appears to me, that higher class ships would get advantages in lower class wormholes, should "landing" distances in wormholes be modified as proposed. Perhaps I am misunderstanding Fozzie's chart... but it appears that higher mass ships would get an advantage to landing distance ... So, for "wolf pack frigate corps" it becomes very difficult to defend against an incursion of larger class ships--especially with the constant 16 hour random wormhole.. You know, that Capital Ships are not allowed to jump through wormholes leading into C1-C4, don't you?
You know that CCP is proposing a perma 16 hour RANDOM wormhole connection -- don't you? I have NO idea what the mechanic will be IF CCP allows connections like this. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:48:00 -
[568] - Quote
Being away further from the hole is not an advantage . The new frigate wormhole only allows frigates and destroyers not bigger ships. besides this is not the thread about the new type of hole. You are quite the troll Rivka. |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:54:00 -
[569] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Being away further from the hole is not an advantage . The new frigate wormhole only allows frigates and destroyers not bigger ships. besides this is not the thread about the new type of hole. You are quite the troll Rivka.
I was mistaken that the randoms would allow larger ships ...
Which is why I was panicking. ... Has nothing to do with trolling.
The point still stands though ...
The function to determine distance from emerging from a wormhole should be something like:
emergeDistance(shipMass, shipRole, astrometricsSkills) ...
Landing further away gives advantages to avoid blobs.
The inability to secure a whole lends to instability -- which should be a factor in more hostile and more profitable space.
|
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:55:00 -
[570] - Quote
Rivka wrote:You know that CCP is proposing a perma 16 hour RANDOM wormhole connection -- don't you?
Of course, because I read the devblog.
Rivka wrote:I have NO idea
That's my Impression as well.
@Wolf Rayet C1: Yes, but his is an excemption! Guess the share of C1 Wolf Rayets among all C1s ... |
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
378
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:57:00 -
[571] - Quote
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime. The best plan would be to leave the mechanics as it with regard to hole jumping, or put this mechanic on every jumpbrigde, cyno and titan bridge, afterall, these are man made wormholes to an extent. . . . .
Fozzie, Kidding aside. I'd like to hear your reasoning for only doing this to the wh mechanice or that you are going to RISK UP the others (cyno, bridges).
Please don't consider multiple options for adjustments. You either come out in jump range and can control the wh or not. This isn't horseshoes, this is moving a slow turning lumbering BUMPABLE capital ship. If it's not in jump range and I see it coming odds are pretty high that i can bump it further without any trouble. WH folks are good at bumping T3 cruisers off of wh, so bumping a moros is a no brainer. 6km off the wh is equivalent to 40km off the wh.
Really, it's a great mechanic that has provided several years of wh pvp epicness. Not broke..... don't fix. Not broke.... don't adjust. |
Xela Kcaneoh
The Pirates Of Orion
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 14:58:00 -
[572] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space. Why does your satisfaction even matter here, CCP? I do not buy Eve for forced player interaction. How many small corps must be evicted before CCP is "satisfied" with the interaction quotient?
I think you forget that while thousands are watching your massive Eve combat events, there are still thousands more enjoying the anti-social nature of a "space frontier". And we're paying the same membership fee as the more social players. If you feel like I'm "cockblocking" this solar system, then make more W-systems. Why must I be evicted because I choose to live in a small social group rather than a larger one?
Honestly, I think these new WH ideas are ultimately aimed to make independent (small corp) life impossible in W-space. CCP, prove me wrong. |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
38
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:05:00 -
[573] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime. I wrote a very nonconstructive post earlier explaining how constructive criticism is useless when giving feedback to you guys. Your post here proves exactly that. So thank you for showing that while you say you listen, you actually don't.. All you do is try to salvage what was a awful game design idea so you, by the end of the day, still have something to show for all the hours you have wasted..
Ever heard of the phrases:
"If it ain't broken, don't fix it." and "Mistakes are always forgivable, if one has the courage to admit them." (think this one is Bruce Lee btw.)
Here is my constructive criticism: I don't want your change, cause it doesn't add anything of value to the game. It only adds grief, frustration and it limits our amount of content .
Here is my idea to a solution: Be a man, admit your mistake, stop trying to fix what isn't broken.. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
632
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:09:00 -
[574] - Quote
Rhavas has a nice write-up here http://interstellarprivateer.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/wormholes-not-gates/ as well.
His recommendation follows that of the majority of the wspace pilots posting here.
In short - most of the announced changes are good ones. The mass/jump variance is not one of those good things.
Kill it.
I'm right behind you |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:16:00 -
[575] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space. [/quote]
The Problem I see here with your explaination / justification is the following.
How easy and safe it is to close wormholes is as well easy and safe to roll the wormholes. So where you force "risk-adverse" Players to accept more potential conflict (which could also drive them out of w-space Overall if the feel risk is now to big and not worth the effort) you are hindering as well those parties who use this "easy and safe" mechanic to drive conflicts. I have read with interest stories about ragerolling higher-class wormhole inhabitants to find again a specific wormhole to escalate a conflict. For my understanding this will be more difficult now and the question is, whether all parties can / are willing to make the efforts like before. I really have some serious doubts that you reach the Goal with this idea. Correct me please if I see that wrong.
And then there still remain the big issues you create for the smaller groups in w-space! Less inhabitants means less conflict for pvp-driven Players. Less pvp for them, even if it's just ganking a T1 Drake in a lower class wormhole could mean they move out looking for other opportunities. And what I very often understand from reading wormhole Forum section is that wormhole Players have tried and don't like K-Space life, doesn't matter if for political reason in 0.0, being bored in HiSec or lowsec.
my 2 Cents at the Moment. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
212
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:20:00 -
[576] - Quote
look ccp, I get it, you guys spent tons of dev time on this and you have to justify it. I work in a large corp and I get it. but from your reply fozzy I can see its obvious that this change is in one way, shape or form going to go through regardless of what everyone is saying. im not going to discuss too much from where the pressure to implement this comes from (pride, cfc, director, etc.) but this is going to be the mini can explosion fiasco all over again. everyone told you it was a bad idea and eventually with a whole lot of egg on ccp's face you eventually removed it. dont let it get to that point. just accept that you made a mistake and focus on the fact that most of the other changes are actually being accepted by the wh community (I never thought id see the day honestly)
dont let this one change **** up a potentially acceptable wh patch. just let it go. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1694
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:24:00 -
[577] - Quote
As risk averse farmers leave, the value of sleeper salvage should rise. Hopefully players willing to take risk in order to make isk, will take the place of all the players that left. +1 |
Shade Skystrike
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:28:00 -
[578] - Quote
CCP Lebowski wrote:Dark Armata wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:CCP Lebowski wrote:In this change's current form active modules do not affect the distance that you will land from the wormhole. This is due to technical issues surrounding the mass calculations for your ship, which we are planning to fix, but may not make it into the Hyperion release.
Just wanted to make this known for the sake of full disclosure. Posting this here as well for visibility. So despite pages of replies across 2 threads. This comment only proves you are not listening at all to the player feedback you requested as you are still spending more development time on this. Honestly, as someone said earlier; Pull this one part of Hyperion and wormholers will hail this the best update ever. Some amazing stuff in the dev blog, please don't ruin it. Please. As a QA analyst, I'm here to speak about the functionality of the feature, not its merits, and to make sure its as close to our designers vision as possible upon release. EDIT: After rereading my post I feel I should clarify, considering the impact of a feature on gameplay and user experience is also part of being a QA analyst, its just not my place to comment on that on the forums!
Once again you're not listening! How about this guys: Roll out the update WITHOUT the freaking mass ejection modification, and then see how we respond. Then ask us, yes ASK US the players who PAY YOUR PAYCHECK to evaluate what we would like to see next! You guys have many games coming up on the horizon that threaten you. Start listening, or die like the rest. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:30:00 -
[579] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space. The Problem I see here with your explaination / justification is the following. How easy and safe it is to close wormholes is as well easy and safe to roll the wormholes. So where you force "risk-adverse" Players to accept more potential conflict (which could also drive them out of w-space Overall if the feel risk is now to big and not worth the effort) you are hindering as well those parties who use this "easy and safe" mechanic to drive conflicts. I have read with interest stories about ragerolling higher-class wormhole inhabitants to find again a specific wormhole to escalate a conflict. For my understanding this will be more difficult now and the question is, whether all parties can / are willing to make the efforts like before. I really have some serious doubts that you reach the Goal with this idea. Correct me please if I see that wrong. And then there still remain the big issues you create for the smaller groups in w-space! Less inhabitants means less conflict for pvp-driven Players. Less pvp for them, even if it's just ganking a T1 Drake in a lower class wormhole could mean they move out looking for other opportunities. And what I very often understand from reading wormhole Forum section is that wormhole Players have tried and don't like K-Space life, doesn't matter if for political reason in 0.0, being bored in HiSec or lowsec. my 2 Cents at the Moment.
What is is about wormhole residents then that dictates that they will not occupy space unless they absolutely have a guaranteed way to isolate their system whenever desired? (Ok, that's a bit of hyperbole but it is very close to what is being declared here repeatedly) The threat of conflict will simply force people to leave? Aren't we all under the constant threat of conflict?
I hate the HTFU ideal but seriously, at some point people need to HTFU here. What do low-sec and null-sec entities do when then have threat of conflict? They either ship up or dock up. It really isn't any different for wormhole space except the aspects of a lack of reinforcement avenues. In some ways I wish there was the capability to allow for only WH to WH cynos and only from unconnected chains. It would make for some interesting dynamics. |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:39:00 -
[580] - Quote
Xela Kcaneoh wrote:Why does your satisfaction even matter here, CCP? I do not buy Eve for forced player interaction. How many small corps must be evicted before CCP is "satisfied" with the interaction quotient?
...
Why must I be evicted because I choose to live in a small social group rather than a larger one?
Honestly, I think these new WH ideas are ultimately aimed to make independent (small corp) life impossible in W-space. CCP, prove me wrong.
Again, I cannot say this enough ... Please empower small fleets, and small corps. ^^
Larger class ships emerging from a wormhole is /really/ quite beside the point... Should they be able to burn back? etc, etc... with mechanics like "Bumping Capital Ships" at work ... this is kind of a MOOT argument.
BUT. With frigates and cruisers, this is a whole different scenario.
Small Wolf Pack Corps /need/ mobility, so emerging at a greater distance from a wormhole would be advantageous, and would also help them secure the space for BS and Capitals to come in.
Please DO give preference to SMALLER mass ships, invert the proposed equation. Or have separate equations depending on the ship ROLE.
emergeDistance(astrometricsSkills, shipMass, shipRole, standingForStarGateAndJumpGates) ...
I would think that the MAX range from the gate should be 100km, with FULL astrometrics / Recon skills, and that only recon ships should have the max advantage.
|
|
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:41:00 -
[581] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:
What is is about wormhole residents then that dictates that they will not occupy space unless they absolutely have a guaranteed way to isolate their system whenever desired? (Ok, that's a bit of hyperbole but it is very close to what is being declared here repeatedly) .
That is just Not possible and your Statement is incorrect. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:44:00 -
[582] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Fluffi Flaffi wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space. The Problem I see here with your explaination / justification is the following. How easy and safe it is to close wormholes is as well easy and safe to roll the wormholes. So where you force "risk-adverse" Players to accept more potential conflict (which could also drive them out of w-space Overall if the feel risk is now to big and not worth the effort) you are hindering as well those parties who use this "easy and safe" mechanic to drive conflicts. I have read with interest stories about ragerolling higher-class wormhole inhabitants to find again a specific wormhole to escalate a conflict. For my understanding this will be more difficult now and the question is, whether all parties can / are willing to make the efforts like before. I really have some serious doubts that you reach the Goal with this idea. Correct me please if I see that wrong. And then there still remain the big issues you create for the smaller groups in w-space! Less inhabitants means less conflict for pvp-driven Players. Less pvp for them, even if it's just ganking a T1 Drake in a lower class wormhole could mean they move out looking for other opportunities. And what I very often understand from reading wormhole Forum section is that wormhole Players have tried and don't like K-Space life, doesn't matter if for political reason in 0.0, being bored in HiSec or lowsec. my 2 Cents at the Moment. What is is about wormhole residents then that dictates that they will not occupy space unless they absolutely have a guaranteed way to isolate their system whenever desired? (Ok, that's a bit of hyperbole but it is very close to what is being declared here repeatedly) The threat of conflict will simply force people to leave? Aren't we all under the constant threat of conflict? I hate the HTFU ideal but seriously, at some point people need to HTFU here. What do low-sec and null-sec entities do when then have threat of conflict? They either ship up or dock up. It really isn't any different for wormhole space except the aspects of a lack of reinforcement avenues. In some ways I wish there was the capability to allow for only WH to WH cynos and only from unconnected chains. It would make for some interesting dynamics.
There is always the threat of conflict, people are complaining about adding more of it. In null or low sec you avoid the threat of conflict by moving a couple jumps over. or you cyno to a different area completely and run pve there.
|
Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
412
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:51:00 -
[583] - Quote
Hi fozzie. I think with this recent dev blog you got 5/6 feature that are amazing (at least imho).
So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump.
I am CEO of a corp that isnt large (by wormhole standards) so I often find myself and my corpmates outnumbered which means we often have to use mass to our advantage to limit how much the enemy can bring against us. One of the prominent ways many corporations do that is by using caps and other heavy mass ships and jumping them both ways in quick succession. This is a common strategy that can decide the course of a fight.
Now before I continue I want to first address your statement of why you made such a change. You claim it is to make rage rolling more difficult and dangerous, however larger corporations such as Hard Knocks, Lazerhawks, SSC, ect. Have no issue placing caps in danger because they have the membership base to back up those capitals if they are cought.
Smaller groups such as mine (while we havent had the chance to use this tactic yet) relish in the prospect of throwing dreds at larger entities ON THE CHANCE that we can limit the assets they bring using combat rolling capital. With this change such an action would be suicide for the cap and force us to choose to engage in an unfortunate one sided slaughter to supirior numbers or request an arranged fight where many of their members will lose on content or they will all together decide we would be worth their time. If non of those options are available we are left with no choice but to stay in our pos which we hate doing.
I ask that you reconsider this feature completely. No iteration of a change that reduces the value of tactics and quick responces while rewarding higher membership count is beneficial to the life style wormholers have enjoyed in the past years.
I hope I have made an appealing case and that you would think on this heavily.
Otherwise this expansion is fantastic. Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
|
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:53:00 -
[584] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
CCP Fozzie:
Giving Small Class pilots further distance from gates allows them to make this decision to engage other players or not ... It adds a great deal of tension because there is still the possibility of them being pulled into a conflict... and they HAVE to be alert. This still accomplishes your goal of player exposure.
Sure, it should be much more difficult to collapse wormholes. BUT, this should be done in a trade-off, that there are other means to defend a System... Give POS types specific bonuses in wormhole space to compensate.
I believe that CCP MUST write these design goals in a sticky post somewhere so we all know what you are striving to achieve.
I would like to suggest this mild correction:
The ulimate experience in Eve Online, the greatest satisfaction, the greatest risk/reward, should come from interaction with other players.
It is the case that players desire, and often NEED to choose, to find that tension through PvP, or less hostile methods, (such as ratting in low/null).
In the case of wormhole "Emergence" it IS the case that there is a greater sense of tension--though tempered with the fact there is no default local channel ... (Which I believe should be the case everywhere).
That being said, always allow players to engage others. But ALSO provide players to pick and choose their fights when confronted--give us the option to retreat. Industrialists and Recon/Explorers should have the advantages at retreat. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1694
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:56:00 -
[585] - Quote
Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump.
Are you against the idea completely or would it help if caps only appeared 5km out of jump range, for example?
+1 |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
193
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 15:59:00 -
[586] - Quote
I feel like an adult telling a kid over and over that if they eat the whole box of cookies they are going to be sick.........
Living in wormholes has made eve for me, I never truly enjoyed and invested myself in the other gameplay options. They didn't interest me.
A lot of us almost think the reason w-space is currently so awesome in regard's to mechanics compared to the rest of eve is sheer accidental blind luck. Sure we have small nitpicks but by and large a lot of the core mechanics of w-space. (Polarity/mass/statics and no local) are why we are here. They are why we subscribe and struggle and work.
Wormholes have let me grow my corp beyond 2 guys starting out into something that im seriously proud of. A big part of how and why that happened was the ability to efficiently roll holes in the search for pvp/pve. Unlike null/low/high sec we are not guaranteed content.
There are no missions, bounties or anything that are permanent. Even our POS can be taken down/run out of fuel. Everything we play with in w-space is at risk. No other space in eve has this. Even if you lose a war in null there are still stations and places things can be saved. If you **** off the wrong person or just are in the wrong place you can lose it all in w-space.
Despite all this we find it compelling to be here, despite the fact that some days we can literally spend 5-8 hours rolling and scouting and not find a fight, we come back and do it again the next day.
Changes to the way we can roll holes affect this dynamic. Fair fights are a minority its reality....part of the head games that go on is sizing up the opposing force and figuring out what you can do to get the advantage. Polarity and the jumping things back/massing the hole is a big part of our tactics.
Quote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snfi2AsJu_c
Watch that video, fights like that is what this change will kill. If this is the type of gameplay you feel isn't compelling/doesn't provide content and value then go right ahead.
You CCP have that your gameplay experience in nullsec isn't what it could be. The mechanics in place which basically mean once a fight is engaged your there win or lose lend themselves to the massive blobs and powerblocs that dominate there. Currently in w-space you can take a fight that isn't a sure thing and retreat back through the hole into a more advantageous position. This change will promote the same type of environment in w-space
Taking away that option will end exactly where people have described, less total fights and engagements short of derpy people losing ships they would likely lose under the current system already.
This change will mean the era of small corps rolling for engagements in their range will likely end, it means rolling over holes during off times will likely just stop. Things will slowdown, this is bad for w-space and therefore bad for the whole game.
We truly want to believe that you have our best interests in mind, prove it to us and don't kill off our way of life. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
413
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:03:00 -
[587] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump. Are you against the idea completely or would it help if caps only appeared 5km out of jump range, for example?
I am against it completely. Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
|
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:04:00 -
[588] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump. Are you against the idea completely or would it help if caps only appeared 5km out of jump range, for example?
I agree that there should be a distinction in these mechanics based on ship roles. I especially believe that frigates and recons should get the most distance.
The safety of battleships and dreads/carriers quite beside the point, and changes should not be made to them. (Maybe a little for battleships).
Incursions into wormhole space should be possible. Starting with small ships and working upwards... This can only happen if recons and frigates have some advantages. |
Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
413
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:15:00 -
[589] - Quote
Rivka wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump. Are you against the idea completely or would it help if caps only appeared 5km out of jump range, for example? I agree that there should be a distinction in these mechanics based on ship roles. I especially believe that frigates and recons should get the most distance. The safety of battleships and dreads/carriers quite beside the point, and changes should not be made to them. (Maybe a little for battleships). Incursions into wormhole space should be possible. Starting with small ships and working upwards... This can only happen if recons and frigates have some advantages.
I would argue agaisnt scouts spawning far from the wormhole as well. Catching scouts that are jumping into your system or a scout that can stay alive while hunted when entering a system is a show of how good someone is. Its a vital part of learning to scout in wormholes imho, and I say this as a scout and having 90% of my membership being scouts. Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
|
Snakes-On-A-Plane
36
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:28:00 -
[590] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Snakes-On-A-Plane wrote:I'm just going to put two and two together here. I believe that WH loot has fallen in price significantly, and the purpose of this change is most likely intended to control that depreciation. It's 'very CCP' to focus on the market above all else. Look at what they have actually said about it: Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
We made the assumption that their goal was to increase conflict. But they never actually said that. Their only stated intention was to disrupt W-space operations. Think about it. We have 50-60 pages of posts saying that this won't actually increase conflict, but actually reduce conflict. And yet they soldier on with the idea, even going so far as to implement it without asking anyone's opinion. But when placed in the context of trying to disrupt loot farming, it falls neatly into place. If pursuing this goal, they don't care if people are hugging a POS for a whole day. In fact, that's ideal. The amount of conflict wouldn't actually concern them. Just so long as they aren't farming and flooding the market with the product. The frigate holes also make a lot of sense, in this context. I feel like they are cloaking their intentions. Maybe we should be trying to provide suggestions on how to control loot farming, without ruining wormhole mechanics? I'd actually like to see this post answered. I'm not saying I agree or disagree, but it is thought provoking at the very least. Thanks for picking up on that. I don't agree or disagree either, and think it might be a little bit of tin-foil hattery tbh.
But at the same time, it fits the facts very neatly. |
|
Qalix
Four Pillars Brothers of Tangra
291
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:31:00 -
[591] - Quote
I don't live in WHs, so I don't have a lot to say about this. However, one thing that I thought was pretty cool, but not quite fair, about WH space is that by rolling the hole, you effectively turn the WH system into a giant spaceship that can fly anywhere in EVE (with a few exceptions). It's just like a TARDIS: travel, peek your head out the door, decide if you like what you see, if not, close the door, travel, peek, repeat. There's a lot to like about it, but the residents of the WH system aren't trading off much for what amounts to the ultimate in travel logistics. |
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:31:00 -
[592] - Quote
Bronya Boga wrote:
I would argue agaisnt scouts spawning far from the wormhole as well. Catching scouts that are jumping into your system or a scout that can stay alive while hunted when entering a system is a show of how good someone is. Its a vital part of learning to scout in wormholes imho, and I say this as a scout and having 90% of my membership being scouts.
Why should you punish recons and scouts who have invested so much SP and ISK into these roles?
It seems there is great consensus that carriers/titans/dreads should not be affected.
So, at least a discussion on smaller classes is merited.
Why shouldn't certain roles, (such as recons, scouts, cloaky haulers), get a bonus to the distance they spawn from gates?
I will go even further and state that these changes should affect /ALL/ gates, stargates, and jumpgates...
This would even help get more cruisers into faction warfare. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1694
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:32:00 -
[593] - Quote
With the new wormhole spawning mechanic (not showing up until you jump) i think rage rolling will still be very easy and the risks will still be minimal.
For capitals you will simply need to warp to the closest planet and back. The orca can just be fitted with a MWD and other propulsion upgrades to burn back to the hole.
The biggest danger will be in rolling an old hole. +1 |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:32:00 -
[594] - Quote
Rivka wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump. Are you against the idea completely or would it help if caps only appeared 5km out of jump range, for example? I agree that there should be a distinction in these mechanics based on ship roles. I especially believe that frigates and recons should get the most distance. The safety of battleships and dreads/carriers quite beside the point, and changes should not be made to them. (Maybe a little for battleships). Incursions into wormhole space should be possible. Starting with small ships and working upwards... This can only happen if recons and frigates have some advantages.
Dear Rivka
Again this will cause the complete opposite. If you as a scout spawn 100km off the WH nobody can tackle you. So this inital conflict is already eliminated with the new system. Then you can easily observe whether you want to engage or not. Nowadays if you jump through a wormhole with a scout and face a camp you most of the times have to react immediately and therefore have the conflict CCP wants to have. You get decloaked maybe by cans or you have just 2 quick options. Jump back and get caought by enemy scouts / tacklers or try to burn away first anc cloak.
And if the camp looks engageable for you you engage now and as well with the new mass feature they plan. |
CraftyCroc
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
237
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:36:00 -
[595] - Quote
I think the other ~30 pages have hit the nail on the head.
|
Rivka
Wind And Flame Stellar Eclipse
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:43:00 -
[596] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
Dear Rivka
Again this will cause the complete opposite. If you as a scout spawn 100km off the WH nobody can tackle you. So this inital conflict is already eliminated with the new system. Then you can easily observe whether you want to engage or not. Nowadays if you jump through a wormhole with a scout and face a camp you most of the times have to react immediately and therefore have the conflict CCP wants to have. You get decloaked maybe by cans or you have just 2 quick options. Jump back and get caought by enemy scouts / tacklers or try to burn away first anc cloak.
And if the camp looks engageable for you you engage now and as well with the new mass feature they plan.
I think you have stated what I would like perfectly.
EXCEPT: I believe the luxury of spawning 100km away from a wormhole/gate should be reserved for specific ROLES, like recon, cloaky haulers, etc, who have heavily invested SP and ISK into those roles, (specifically navigation, astrometrics, recon, cloaking, etc).
I believe they should get the greatest advantages when it comes to spawning distances.
This gives gate camping a vulnerability--and not always a sure win, and not always some massive slug fest, but a more surgical and tactical outcome. :) |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:49:00 -
[597] - Quote
Rivka wrote:Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
Dear Rivka
Again this will cause the complete opposite. If you as a scout spawn 100km off the WH nobody can tackle you. So this inital conflict is already eliminated with the new system. Then you can easily observe whether you want to engage or not. Nowadays if you jump through a wormhole with a scout and face a camp you most of the times have to react immediately and therefore have the conflict CCP wants to have. You get decloaked maybe by cans or you have just 2 quick options. Jump back and get caought by enemy scouts / tacklers or try to burn away first anc cloak.
And if the camp looks engageable for you you engage now and as well with the new mass feature they plan.
I think you have stated what I would like perfectly. EXCEPT: I believe the luxury of spawning 100km away from a wormhole/gate should be reserved for specific ROLES, like recon, cloaky haulers, etc, who have heavily invested SP and ISK into those roles, (specifically navigation, astrometrics, recon, cloaking, etc). I believe they should get the greatest advantages when it comes to spawning distances. This gives gate camping a vulnerability--and not always a sure win, and not always some massive slug fest, but a more surgical and tactical outcome. :) So instead of just giving the ships bonuses that makes them insanely hard to catch(if flown properly), you want to make them impossible to catch... The ships you mention are already pretty easy to fly trough gatecamps.. I rather often fly both recons and cloaky haulers and tbh. if you get caught, you are either very unlucky, or bad :o
As for the actual proposed changes, I think the opinion is pretty clear.. Now its up to CCP whether they want a happy community and a healthy game, or continue down the dark road they are on. |
Qalix
Four Pillars Brothers of Tangra
292
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 16:52:00 -
[598] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:With the new wormhole spawning mechanic (not showing up until you jump) i think rage rolling will still be very easy and the risks will still be minimal.
For capitals you will simply need to warp to the closest planet and back. The orca can just be fitted with a MWD and other propulsion upgrades to burn back to the hole.
The biggest danger will be in rolling an old hole. You're behind the times. Check that thread; they're adding a timer. |
Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
414
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:01:00 -
[599] - Quote
Rivka wrote:Fluffi Flaffi wrote:
Dear Rivka
Again this will cause the complete opposite. If you as a scout spawn 100km off the WH nobody can tackle you. So this inital conflict is already eliminated with the new system. Then you can easily observe whether you want to engage or not. Nowadays if you jump through a wormhole with a scout and face a camp you most of the times have to react immediately and therefore have the conflict CCP wants to have. You get decloaked maybe by cans or you have just 2 quick options. Jump back and get caought by enemy scouts / tacklers or try to burn away first anc cloak.
And if the camp looks engageable for you you engage now and as well with the new mass feature they plan.
I think you have stated what I would like perfectly. EXCEPT: I believe the luxury of spawning 100km away from a wormhole/gate should be reserved for specific ROLES, like recon, cloaky haulers, etc, who have heavily invested SP and ISK into those roles, (specifically navigation, astrometrics, recon, cloaking, etc). I believe they should get the greatest advantages when it comes to spawning distances. This gives gate camping a vulnerability--and not always a sure win, and not always some massive slug fest, but a more surgical and tactical outcome. :)
If your scout gets cought by a camped wh. You are just bad at it and need more practice. I havent lost a scout in a VERY long time and catching cloaky haulers is difficult in itself why would you want to make it even harder? Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
|
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:07:00 -
[600] - Quote
Bronya Boga wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump. Are you against the idea completely or would it help if caps only appeared 5km out of jump range, for example? I am against it completely.
When is the next DTP podcast being recorded? Look forward to hearing you talk about this. |
|
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1696
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:13:00 -
[601] - Quote
Qalix wrote:Rek Seven wrote:With the new wormhole spawning mechanic (not showing up until you jump) i think rage rolling will still be very easy and the risks will still be minimal.
For capitals you will simply need to warp to the closest planet and back. The orca can just be fitted with a MWD and other propulsion upgrades to burn back to the hole.
The biggest danger will be in rolling an old hole. You're behind the times. Check that thread; they're adding a timer.
The last thing i heard was that they were considering adding a timer... Even if they do, it makes no difference to what i said. +1 |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
382
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:17:00 -
[602] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:With the new wormhole spawning mechanic (not showing up until you jump) i think rage rolling will still be very easy and the risks will still be minimal.
For capitals you will simply need to warp to the closest planet and back. The orca can just be fitted with a MWD and other propulsion upgrades to burn back to the hole.
The biggest danger will be in rolling an old hole.
Have you flown a capital ship (esp since the changes to warp)? It is one click to warp to the nearest planet, so it is simple. Simple to initiate doesn't get you to the planet and back. Anything inside 54km makes you 'simply pointable' by a proteus. The only ship that can 'simply web' you at that range is a loki. They have the same lock time, the point is instant and the web helps,but isn't instant. So... getting 'simply pointed' is what will simply happen when you 'simply warp to the closest planet''. Anything that can't cloak/get into warp before proteus point 'simply doesn't go anywhere'.
The mwd orca is a different issue. It may actually have a chance. If I can get up to speed it might be able to just coast into the wh and jump back. Things that will prevent that - bumping it out of alignment before it gets up to speed, webs, scrams. I would bet on getting up to speed and coasting into jump range to be a slim chance. |
Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
417
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:19:00 -
[603] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Bronya Boga wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump. Are you against the idea completely or would it help if caps only appeared 5km out of jump range, for example? I am against it completely. When is the next DTP podcast being recorded? Look forward to hearing you talk about this.
This weekend.
Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
|
Thea Nalelmir
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:21:00 -
[604] - Quote
What is this particular change supposed to do again?
"This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space."
Uhmm, by metrics sure rolling WHs is "easy" the pros have it down to an art form, but that is after a lot of practice. Don't believe me have someone do it without any experience and see what happens. Rage-rolling only really happens with local superiority, without that it becomes really dangerous. If you want more engagement in WHs you need more people in WHs. More people and rage-rolling becomes a lot harder, there is always the chance to get dropped on and your rolling can get stomped on. The real problem is that you have to find people doing it. The extra 30 seconds maybe a minute that this will add is pointless. All you have to do is have another 'toon web you to about 180 Km away, and another stationed there to web ya back. Easy this entire code turns into a waste of time, leaving very little input.
"The basics of this proposal is for the mass of any individual ship to influence the range that they appear from the wormhole when they emerge on the other side. This should provide a more interesting tactical environment in wormhole combat and ensure a basic level of risk to rolling a wormhole without proper support."
Uhmm, what? I lived in a C6 for about a year, this rarely happens. When evicting C6 residents you quietly bring in caps, warp them to a safe spot and when you think you have the numbers you bash POSes. Also remember that C5s and C6s are the ONLY WHs that can SUPPORT CAPS. Every other WH is barely effected, only Orca's are truly affected by this change and I have already solved the problem earlier in this post.
Let's face it, the jump range is a joke at best, it will be figured out in about a week maybe 2 weeks at most, more likely 3-4 days, that's it. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1696
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:29:00 -
[605] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Rek Seven wrote:With the new wormhole spawning mechanic (not showing up until you jump) i think rage rolling will still be very easy and the risks will still be minimal.
For capitals you will simply need to warp to the closest planet and back. The orca can just be fitted with a MWD and other propulsion upgrades to burn back to the hole.
The biggest danger will be in rolling an old hole. Have you flown a capital ship (esp since the changes to warp)? It is one click to warp to the nearest planet, so it is simple. Simple to initiate doesn't get you to the planet and back. Anything inside 54km makes you 'simply pointable' by a proteus. The only ship that can 'simply web' you at that range is a loki. They have the same lock time, the point is instant and the web helps,but isn't instant. So... getting 'simply pointed' is what will simply happen when you 'simply warp to the closest planet''. Anything that can't cloak/get into warp before proteus point 'simply doesn't go anywhere'. The mwd orca is a different issue. It may actually have a chance. If I can get up to speed it might be able to just coast into the wh and jump back. Things that will prevent that - bumping it out of alignment before it gets up to speed, webs, scrams. I would bet on getting up to speed and coasting into jump range to be a slim chance.
What are the chances of a new wormhole spawning on grind with a hostile proteus?
If it's a new hole, you will have plenty of time to get into warp and unless the hostiles are really quick in scanning the new wormhole and putting a HIC on it, you will easily be able to jump home. +1 |
Severn VonKarr
Manoop Material Acquisitions Cartel
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:30:00 -
[606] - Quote
Not to be derogatory, but for anyone involved in wormhole pvp, jumping back through a hole is understood to not make you invulnerable. A small gang of even remotely competent pvpers will place cloaked dictors/hictors on either side and just follow someone through with their main force if they try to disengage by jumping through. This is no different than the games played on gate camps. A quick look at a corp's setup, and you can get a pretty good idea of whether or not they will try to close your connection with them and you can lay a trap. This change just complicates in space refitting for caps and adds a minor irritation for anyone rolling a hole for content. It also does not meaningfully increase risk. |
Alabugin
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exit Strategy..
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:36:00 -
[607] - Quote
Rivka wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump. Are you against the idea completely or would it help if caps only appeared 5km out of jump range, for example? I agree that there should be a distinction in these mechanics based on ship roles. I especially believe that frigates and recons should get the most distance. The safety of battleships and dreads/carriers quite beside the point, and changes should not be made to them. (Maybe a little for battleships). Incursions into wormhole space should be possible. Starting with small ships and working upwards... This can only happen if recons and frigates have some advantages.
Actually, this creates another problem - which is an invincible scout. The current system is the best, as it leaves room for catching the cloaky t3's/reconds/coverts that come through the holes to spy on you. If frigates and recons spawned at 20 then they can essentially ALWAYS survive unless you are really lucky with a decloak.
Please...just remove this change - it creates more problems then it attempts to solve. |
Ray Kyonhe
Ray's Relentless Research
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 17:44:00 -
[608] - Quote
Jack Marshal wrote:
Well Sir you definitely haven't , done anything with a small group of guys in a wormhole or you must be used to flying in a large blob. Must be nice. With 5 or 6 guys online at a time It really makes it hard to do anything. if you cant "secure' your static. Its extremely risky to do when you have to do it under duress, racing, no holes, Hard knocks or any other **** fleet to you Static or connector to close it before they get enough people to burn down your cap and battleship your attempting to roll the hole, so you don't have to spin in your POS for the day. Even with locking people out anytime of a Day there could be a **** fleet **** rolling waiting to jump in on you. FYI when this happens we don't have a cyno to call in supers and welp an attacker, we also don't have a week of TIMERS to Amass Titains Suppers and 900 people. we have 1 timer and that is a POS timer. Challenges? seriously? Try adding content not retardation, how bout fixing up more POS management, or maybe the bookmarks
And why actually group of 5-6 people have to be allowed the same level of comfort while accessing the highest level content in the game, as huge entities have? Or should we ask while one multiboxer with 5-6 accounts should (which is not so uncommon in wh)? Well, if he can overcome all difficulties and manage it somehow - I bow to him again. But why should game mechanic help him in any way? This is mmo, and it has to favor bigger players' communities, like it is happen IRL actually. It is bad when smaller entities banned from some content or space entirely. But to allow them the same unrestricted access to the top of the notch content as greater entities have - is another extreme, imo. They should be given their niche, this is more reasanoble approach. There are a lot of low level holes around there, if you hard-boiled solo player or prefer to stay in your small friend corp - you should go try do them, and visit higest ones occasionally, when you just happen to find one with safe statics (so you don't need to roll over). Or adapt. Survey/voting system inbuilt to the game client: link_Reforming corp and taxation system: link_New PvE content (reward collective gameplay): link |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 18:30:00 -
[609] - Quote
Von Keigai wrote:I'll reiterate the criticism I already posted in the other thread.
Currently, a significant part of the danger in moving many kinds of ships in wspace is that when you jump, you may not be able to immediately cloak. 2000m is the "decloak distance", the distance at which an object prevents cloaking. Wormholes are objects. Usually you land further from the wormhole than 2000m, but often (~20%?), you land closer. If you land closer, there is the opportunity for an enemy to lock you before you can get far enough to cloak.
The risk of not being able to cloak is particularly significant for ships with covert ops cloaks, because once cloaked they can warp. It is nearly impossible to stop one of them without a bubble. Even with a bubble, because they can move at full speed they will usually escape. (And of course T3 scouts will be interdiction nullified.)
Assuming I am correctly understanding the numbers in the dev blog, after Hyperion no ship that jumps a wormhole will ever land closer than 2000m from the wormhole. In fact, even the lightest ships always land at least 3500m from it. Thus, all covert ships will be essentially uncatchable by anything but a bubble. Indeed, all ships will be far enough from the wormhole that they no longer need to worry about the geometry when they warp, because their align cannot take them within decloak distance.
This will affect my play, because currently I do try to catch scouts on wormholes in a Manticore from time to time. I know the chance is not large; in fact I have not actually caught one yet who was paying attention. Still, the chance is there. And I did catch a blockade runner once who got screwed by the RNG. If I knew there was zero chance that covert ships would ever be within the decloak distance, I would not bother to hunt them.
This change would make hunting in a cloaky ship less risky, but I don't agree with that either. Every time I come out 1600m from the wormhole is a tiny scare, and each time I survive it is a tiny victory.
This is the only valid concern about this change, rest is just whining by people unable to think outside their comfort zones or face actual risks.
|
Nightingale Actault
Big Richard Club
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 18:42:00 -
[610] - Quote
The attempt to create more variation is admirable, though I believe the consensus is that the proposed change is handling the problem incorrectly. Rather than increasing the spawn distance, what about changing the physical size of high end WHs. For instance a C5-C5 could have a radius of 15k. Without changing spawn distance it would still mean that a capital could spawn just outside of refit range but would also still be within range to jump back. |
|
KIller Wabbit
The Scope Gallente Federation
685
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 18:46:00 -
[611] - Quote
Hey CCP - sorry this wasn't brought up sooner, but I just remembered something from a time long ago. Recently I've seen you say in various places that you need to "just shake up the ant farm" to see what happens. Well I remembered just now that I actually had an ant farm and did just that. You know what? Sometimes you ******* crush the ants.
CCP .. always first with the wrong stuff CSM .. CCP Shills with a vacation plan
|
Protoburger
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 18:49:00 -
[612] - Quote
Make the spawn thingy and remove the polarization. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
383
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 18:58:00 -
[613] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Rek Seven wrote:With the new wormhole spawning mechanic (not showing up until you jump) i think rage rolling will still be very easy and the risks will still be minimal.
For capitals you will simply need to warp to the closest planet and back. The orca can just be fitted with a MWD and other propulsion upgrades to burn back to the hole.
The biggest danger will be in rolling an old hole. Have you flown a capital ship (esp since the changes to warp)? It is one click to warp to the nearest planet, so it is simple. Simple to initiate doesn't get you to the planet and back. Anything inside 54km makes you 'simply pointable' by a proteus. The only ship that can 'simply web' you at that range is a loki. They have the same lock time, the point is instant and the web helps,but isn't instant. So... getting 'simply pointed' is what will simply happen when you 'simply warp to the closest planet''. Anything that can't cloak/get into warp before proteus point 'simply doesn't go anywhere'. The mwd orca is a different issue. It may actually have a chance. If I can get up to speed it might be able to just coast into the wh and jump back. Things that will prevent that - bumping it out of alignment before it gets up to speed, webs, scrams. I would bet on getting up to speed and coasting into jump range to be a slim chance. What are the chances of a new wormhole spawning on grind with a hostile proteus? If it's a new hole, you will have plenty of time to get into warp and unless the hostiles are really quick in scanning the new wormhole and putting a HIC on it, you will easily be able to jump home.
With combats already out, I'll probably nail the cap ship before it warps to a planet. I'll surely get it before it leaves the planet. I suppose there is room for the cloaked carrier to find a role. My main issue is with 'simply warp a capital to the nearest planet. But now that you put it that way - I'm anchoring small bubbles and corpses at all my planets and moons.
(back to the drawing board) |
Altirius Saldiaro
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
73
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 19:00:00 -
[614] - Quote
Mass, speed and inertia entering a wormhole should reflect on exiting the wormhole. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
383
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 19:02:00 -
[615] - Quote
Severn VonKarr wrote:Not to be derogatory, but for anyone involved in wormhole pvp, jumping back through a hole is understood to not make you invulnerable. A small gang of even remotely competent pvpers will place cloaked dictors/hictors on either side and just follow someone through with their main force if they try to disengage by jumping through. This is no different than the games played on gate camps. A quick look at a corp's setup, and you can get a pretty good idea of whether or not they will try to close your connection with them and you can lay a trap. This change just complicates in space refitting for caps and adds a minor irritation for anyone rolling a hole for content. It also does not meaningfully increase risk.
So you're saying it's already risky as long as the guys not rolling have the balls to go all in and scan a way home later? Kind of like risk/reward in lieu of a 20km duck shoot?
So maybe this isn't about adding risk to rollers, maybe it is currently too risky for guys hunting rollers? Who would have thunk it? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
698
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 19:38:00 -
[616] - Quote
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:Mass, speed and inertia entering a wormhole should reflect on exiting the wormhole.
While a fun mechanic the problem would be its too unreliable and not always practical, i.e. you could end up at 0 on a wh with it too risky to burn off to get the run up so as to pull the extra range you need on the other side. Some way of flagging your desired outcome when jumping i.e. having prop mod on when jumping would be more reliable. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 19:41:00 -
[617] - Quote
Still against it. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 19:44:00 -
[618] - Quote
Bronya Boga wrote:Hi fozzie. I think with this recent dev blog you got 5/6 feature that are amazing (at least imho).
So lets talk about that 1/6, the disturbing feature that makes orcas spawn 11k and caps spawn up to 20k away from the wormhole after they jump.
I am CEO of a corp that isnt large (by wormhole standards) so I often find myself and my corpmates outnumbered which means we often have to use mass to our advantage to limit how much the enemy can bring against us. One of the prominent ways many corporations do that is by using caps and other heavy mass ships and jumping them both ways in quick succession. This is a common strategy that can decide the course of a fight.
Now before I continue I want to first address your statement of why you made such a change. You claim it is to make rage rolling more difficult and dangerous, however larger corporations such as Hard Knocks, Lazerhawks, SSC, ect. Have no issue placing caps in danger because they have the membership base to back up those capitals if they are cought.
Smaller groups such as mine (while we havent had the chance to use this tactic yet) relish in the prospect of throwing dreds at larger entities ON THE CHANCE that we can limit the assets they bring using combat rolling capital. With this change such an action would be suicide for the cap and force us to choose to engage in an unfortunate one sided slaughter to supirior numbers or request an arranged fight where many of their members will lose on content or they will all together decide we would be worth their time. If non of those options are available we are left with no choice but to stay in our pos which we hate doing.
I ask that you reconsider this feature completely. No iteration of a change that reduces the value of tactics and quick responces while rewarding higher membership count is beneficial to the life style wormholers have enjoyed in the past years.
I hope I have made an appealing case and that you would think on this heavily.
Otherwise this expansion is fantastic.
|
Joktan
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 19:50:00 -
[619] - Quote
Rivka wrote: EXCEPT: I believe the luxury of spawning 100km away from a wormhole/gate should be reserved for specific ROLES, like recon, cloaky haulers, etc, who have heavily invested SP and ISK into those roles, (specifically navigation, astrometrics, recon, cloaking, etc).
This is way better than being nullified... and in no way would be good design.
|
Shaklu
Mass Effect Enterprises Dark Knights of Eden
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 20:10:00 -
[620] - Quote
Reading through the different sticky threads' comments, I just find it amusing the reactions they all get (except bookmarks) Large / PVP cops are indifferent / like them Small / PVE hate them The ones that both groups disagree with, the fix is to do the exact opposite of the proposed changes (like this one)
More large corp stuff More pvp stuff No plan to balance risk and reward / help out pve (seems pretty typical)
I wonder if someone could simply guess what the next expansion would be just via topic (like WH) by simply following the above recipe.
I have to agree that bigger/heavier/slower ships should be closer to the WH, and smaller/lighter/faster ships further away - it makes sense via math + science, and it just seems like a better policy overall. Imagine you find a wormhole (like in real life) you shoot a probe/satellite through it, immediately followed by your ship. Which one is going to be where on the other side of it? Well, your big ship will just be leaving the WH while the smaller faster whatever is flying away at high speeds. |
|
Reve Uhad
Outer Ring Sleeper Collective Illusion of Solitude
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 20:25:00 -
[621] - Quote
Shaklu wrote: Large / PVP cops are indifferent / like them
That's not accurate. Several members from several large PVP groups have come out on this thread saying they don't like the distance changes. |
pierre arthos
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 20:44:00 -
[622] - Quote
If these changes go ahead, then rage rolling for smaller groups will die because of the double whammy of rolling being more dangerous and tedious, plus the massive disadvantage of the invading party compared to the defender when deploying caps, because of the issue of spawning out of refit and capacitor feeding range.
It's not so bad for large alliances like NoHo, we'll probably change tactics, with a specialised rolling cap and defensive fit BS for rage rolling, and for the fight itself go with a 50+ T3 and Guardian blob to counter the inevitable cap escalation by the defenders. I think it'll pan out like this - because only large alliances will be able to field a viable offensive T3 blob, farming will get safer overall, so the number of bears will go up. We'll actually benefit, as the K162 not spawning until jumping in will give an edge to the attacker with a 50 man blob formed up.
For people not able to field a 50 man blob, that leaves opportunistic kills of rolling crews (now easier, but the caps will be ****-fit) and the good old log in trap. In summary, great for big groups, and a massive kick in the spuds for those C5/C6 PVPers who can field 15-30 pilots.
Please CCP, take our concerns on board - whilst well intentioned, the mass-based spawn is going to hurt the up and coming and intermediate sized groups the most, and for the bigger groups make life more boring and less varied. The big dogs will just get bigger, smaller entities be forced to congeal together (I use this term deliberately) and we'll end up becoming mini-Goons in our little wormhole ghetto.
I'm not against change, but I can't see how this will improve anything? |
Alabugin
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exit Strategy..
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 20:59:00 -
[623] - Quote
pierre arthos wrote:If these changes go ahead, then rage rolling for smaller groups will die because of the double whammy of rolling being more dangerous and tedious, plus the massive disadvantage of the invading party compared to the defender when deploying caps, because of the issue of spawning out of refit and capacitor feeding range.
It's not so bad for large alliances like NoHo, we'll probably change tactics, with a specialised rolling cap and defensive fit BS for rage rolling, and for the fight itself go with a 50+ T3 and Guardian blob to counter the inevitable cap escalation by the defenders. I think it'll pan out like this - because only large alliances will be able to field a viable offensive T3 blob, farming will get safer overall, so the number of bears will go up. We'll actually benefit, as the K162 not spawning until jumping in will give an edge to the attacker with a 50 man blob formed up.
For people not able to field a 50 man blob, that leaves opportunistic kills of rolling crews (now easier, but the caps will be ****-fit) and the good old log in trap. In summary, great for big groups, and a massive kick in the spuds for those C5/C6 PVPers who can field 15-30 pilots.
Please CCP, take our concerns on board - whilst well intentioned, the mass-based spawn is going to hurt the up and coming and intermediate sized groups the most, and for the bigger groups make life more boring and less varied. The big dogs will just get bigger, smaller entities be forced to congeal together (I use this term deliberately) and we'll end up becoming mini-Goons in our little wormhole ghetto.
I'm not against change, but I can't see how this will improve anything?
Someone please give this man a beer! Couldn't have said it better. Even at our prime time, we are lucky to field 20 pilots. Our US TZ is absolute garbage, and this change will make it damn near impossible to roll holes unless we can recruit 20 US pilots in the next coming weeks (cough not gonna fuckin happen).
I would like to see a poll created on this issue, so we can truly see some statistics on how many people feel this is a bad idea. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 21:08:00 -
[624] - Quote
[/quote] I would like to see a poll created on this issue, so we can truly see some statistics on how many people feel this is a bad idea.[/quote]
If only non-wormholers were prohibited to vote lol |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 22:13:00 -
[625] - Quote
Protoburger wrote:Make the spawn thingy and remove the polarization.
Or modify the polarization time by mass. Bigger ships need to stablelize and cooldown before they can jump back. |
Bronya Boga
Isogen 5
422
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 22:30:00 -
[626] - Quote
I appreciate the brainstorm but why break something that isn't broken? leave the wormhole jumping mechanic alone. Its unique. Its challenging. It works great now(with the occasional unintentional bug ;)) Host of Down The Pipe-áIngame Channel DTP Podcast www.downthepipe-wh.com GÇïIsogen 5 is recruiting. Check us out
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Lugia3
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
1088
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 22:39:00 -
[627] - Quote
Bad idea, will kill wormholes for small corps and promote blob warfare. "CCP Dolan is full of ****." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov! |
Tivika
Deadspace Knights
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 22:43:00 -
[628] - Quote
This change is Terrible for reasons already posted a hundred times over in this post. I almost never post but this bull S%%% got me here FAST!! |
Sith1s Spectre
Hard Knocks Inc.
1133
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 23:01:00 -
[629] - Quote
Orange Aideron wrote:+1
Shake the Ant Farm!
I think we'll adapt. Here's why:
WH's are hard. That's why we conquered them. They challenged us, so we made them work for us.
Do these changes have an effect on WH life? of course they do. Will there be a mass exodus from WHs because of the changes? I doubt it. Just as before, we will figure out new ways to roll, and will probably figure out new ways to counter roll.
In fact the only thing I see most effected is solo expo and small cap expo fleets. And that has been an op ISK making venture in the game for a long time (we'd all admit that).
I say bring it on the changes. We will adapt. QFT
I'm going to go against what most people are saying and say these changes are good.
All it will do is add more risk to closing connections (and an extra minute tops to closing holes) and affect all the small farming holes that we all have (come on, own up to it. Almost every big group many people with alt farming holes)
Also, the people in the lower down holes should be pushing for these changes to go through because if it reduces the amount of farming holes - it can only be a good thing for your nanoribbon prices and gas prices. AU tz best tz
|
Lajos Perseus
Conquering Darkness
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 23:17:00 -
[630] - Quote
+1 what Sithe said |
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3608
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 23:32:00 -
[631] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Also, the people in the lower down holes should be pushing for these changes to go through because if it reduces the amount of farming holes - it can only be a good thing for your nanoribbon prices and gas prices. come on man, the large groups dont give 2 fks about the extra risk because they can protect their rolling fleets. it actually has the exact opposite result to what youre saying; it screws the small corps, who can't protect their rollers, and hugely benefits the large corps who can.
saying this will have any effect on nano prices is extremely naive. It won't.
PS: If you dont believe me, go back and look at who is happy about this change. The vast majority are people who spend their WH lives in large C5/6 'elite pvp' groups. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 23:33:00 -
[632] - Quote
Since CCP appears to be actually following this thread.............
We live in a c3/low static. Have for years. The collective changes proposed for wormholes will have this result for us.
1) We will be less active in the hole, except for cloaked alts keeping an eye on traffic. Provides LESS content for others.
2) We will increase the number of PI alts we have, they log on for 15 minutes every 4 days. LESS content for others. If a no implant alt in a hauler gets blown up once in a while by frig roams, we won't care.
3) We will run sleeper sites only under very specific conditions, meaning few cross holes to watch. LESS content for others.
4) We will probably never mine, ever, something we do now fairly regularly. LESS content for others.
5) Under current conditions, we balance risk vs. reward. Every so often we get blown up, once in a while blow someone else up. Under new conditions, the risk vs reward means we will take less risks, LESS content for us/others.
6) Under incoming conditions, our hisec mission runners will probably train up to incursion runners. And provide LESS content for others.
7) Even a carebear at heart like me gets tired of shooting red crosses. Eventually this will result in 4 lost accounts for CCP. Sooner rather than later if this type of silliness continues. LESS content for others.
A large portion of this thread espouses the viewpoints of higher class wh dwellers. They make many valid points. Now you propose to scatter their rolling/pvp fleet all over space when they enter my wormhole. If what I see on my scout makes me think we can engage successfully, we will. Wait, doesn't that create more content? No, it doesn't, because under your proposed changes, as they have stated, they only need to not jump through, and the K162 won't spawn on my side.
LESS content. More hassle. Less players who already have a lot of things to deal with in wormhole life. Less Eve players.
LESS content.
Of all the things that are just silly, last patch, (taxing my own facilities by an npc entity for research/industry in the wh? Really?) and now more changes which will generate LESS content, not more, you couldn't come up with something better?
*No none of you can haz my stuff!
|
Sith1s Spectre
Hard Knocks Inc.
1136
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 23:38:00 -
[633] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Also, the people in the lower down holes should be pushing for these changes to go through because if it reduces the amount of farming holes - it can only be a good thing for your nanoribbon prices and gas prices. come on man, the large groups dont give 2 fks about the extra risk because they can protect their rolling fleets. it actually has the exact opposite result to what youre saying; it screws the small corps, who can't protect their rollers, and hugely benefits the large corps who can. saying this will have any effect on nano prices is extremely naive. It won't. PS: If you dont believe me, go back and look at who is happy about this change. The vast majority are people who spend their WH lives in large C5/6 'elite pvp' groups.
Sorry, but I don't agree.
I cannot think of a single time in the last 2 years that these changes would have made a difference when rolling holes apart from being a minor inconvenience.
The reality is if you're warping a cap to a hole where another group is already camping it and set up it's going to die anyway, AU tz best tz
|
J0HN SHEPPARD
The Icarus Expedition The Daedalus Imperium
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 23:43:00 -
[634] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Quoted for emphasis. The great thing about wormhole living is that we can carve out our content with small groups of friends. This suggested change favors the large and will be more than crippling to the small groups. However, the suggestion in the edits could very dramatically change fleet composition, where currently we are all but forced to fly Proteus fleets (or other close range brawlers). I get that the goal is to increase the danger of our regular activities, but looking at the big picture of your current suggestion will force smaller corporations into one of 2 choices:
- consolidate into larger entities
- leave w-space
We have said many times in many places that what we really want are MORE PEOPLE in wormholes, (and to that end more small to medium size groups of people are far better than more large entities). Find a way to entice more people into wormholes, and the danger will take care of itself.
couldn't be said better! These changes support large numbers or big groups, but then what's gonna happen to the small groups. Small Groups Can already hardly manage to operate. This whole WH things is already dangerous enough!! |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 23:43:00 -
[635] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Orange Aideron wrote:+1
Shake the Ant Farm!
I think we'll adapt. Here's why:
WH's are hard. That's why we conquered them. They challenged us, so we made them work for us.
Do these changes have an effect on WH life? of course they do. Will there be a mass exodus from WHs because of the changes? I doubt it. Just as before, we will figure out new ways to roll, and will probably figure out new ways to counter roll.
In fact the only thing I see most effected is solo expo and small cap expo fleets. And that has been an op ISK making venture in the game for a long time (we'd all admit that).
I say bring it on the changes. We will adapt. QFT I'm going to go against what most people are saying and say these changes are good. All it will do is add more risk to closing connections (and an extra minute tops to closing holes) and affect all the small farming holes that we all have (come on, own up to it. Almost every big group many people with alt farming holes) Also, the people in the lower down holes should be pushing for these changes to go through because if it reduces the amount of farming holes - it can only be a good thing for your nanoribbon prices and gas prices.
+1 Finally someone else with some courage! We will all adapt and wormholes will be better for it. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
266
|
Posted - 2014.08.07 23:55:00 -
[636] - Quote
To Fozzie! If you do redesign this please just lessen the impact (ie make the distance a little less) the proposed mechanic itself will shake things up which is what wormhole space needs. Again I'll reiterate that I hope you give null sec the same shake up! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Bibosikus
Flowery Twats
191
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 00:11:00 -
[637] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).
Traiori makes the most salient and convincing points in the (to date) 32 pages of this thread. And he makes them on the very first page.
QED.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
386
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 00:37:00 -
[638] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:To Fozzie! If you do redesign this please just lessen the impact (ie make the distance a little less) the proposed mechanic itself will shake things up which is what wormhole space needs. Again I'll reiterate that I hope you give null sec the same shake up!
I just reviewed you kb. It's impressive, but not really wh related for the most part. I welcome your viewpoint, but with this character I'll have to weight your opinions with your lack of wh experiences. (really a great kb though - I may be applying based on how things turn out here) |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
267
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 01:16:00 -
[639] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Andiedeath wrote:To Fozzie! If you do redesign this please just lessen the impact (ie make the distance a little less) the proposed mechanic itself will shake things up which is what wormhole space needs. Again I'll reiterate that I hope you give null sec the same shake up! I just reviewed you kb. It's impressive, but not really wh related for the most part. I welcome your viewpoint, but with this character I'll have to weight your opinions with your lack of wh experiences. (really a great kb though - I may be applying based on how things turn out here)
LOL! My killboard isnt anything to go on. I run public lowsec roams once a week so its a bit skewed... And when I'm in wormhole space I am usually doing admin stuff. ;) I think you will find though we are very active in wormhole space and have been for the last 18 months. My point of view is based on that experience which is mostly AU timezone (the timezone in W-Space has been growing fast but is still not at the level of the EU/US timezones).
Also note even though I support the change, I can also understand the C5/C6 blocks worry... As the people that usually roll wormholes will have to some how get their lazy corpies that sit in POS shields all day (while playing DOTA) to actually help them find pvp/pve. :) Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Edward Harris
Lazerhawks
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 01:36:00 -
[640] - Quote
Since this is not Null we are talking about, I really want to put emphasis on this - In W-Space, many fights happen on wormholes. If dreads land too far away from carriers, a refit is not possible, and the fight is lost against the defending fleet, which can warp to whichever range it pleases as one.
This change will not provide the content you are looking for - it will perhaps provide ganks, but thats it. Pilots will become much more risk averse and less pvp will happen.
Please realize the difference in mechanics we are talking about - mass limitations, no cynos, nothing you can effectively do when your dread lands 20km away from your carrier.
|
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Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
405
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 01:53:00 -
[641] - Quote
Edward Harris wrote:Since this is not Null we are talking about, I really want to put emphasis on this - In W-Space, many fights happen on wormholes. If dreads land too far away from carriers, a refit is not possible, and the fight is lost against the defending fleet, which can warp to whichever range it pleases as one.
This change will not provide the content you are looking for - it will perhaps provide ganks, but thats it. Pilots will become much more risk averse and less pvp will happen.
Please realize the difference in mechanics we are talking about - mass limitations, no cynos, nothing you can effectively do when your dread lands 20km away from your carrier.
As the CEO of a small C5 corp, here's exactly what was said when heard about this change.
"Okay guys, plated battleships will only land about 1km off of jump range, so if we have to crush a C5 we'll just run 4 battleships in the place of that carrier and not bother risking it."
There's no reason for this change. If you want to drop a carrier on a hole now, it's already one of the slowest, easiest targets to catch. As Jack has pointed out through out this thread, we're already a bunch of risk averse individuals running from crevice to crevice, do you really think anybody is going to risk a carrier or dread to crush when it's going to be faster to warp it off grid and back? No. They're not.
Maybe some the big C5/C6 corps with more people and money than God on their side, but the rest of us? Forget about it.
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Bad League of Legends Player. |
Korozaa
Deadspace Knights
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 02:25:00 -
[642] - Quote
Don't post much - but prompted by my corp to give my two cents.
It makes a fun challenging environment tedious. Can you tell me why I don't see any changes that favor small group play? |
Tom Dirtdiver
Imperium of Suns E.B.O.L.A.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 02:27:00 -
[643] - Quote
CCP is once again a master of ignoranz and abuse. Ignoranz to their own creativty and abuse from the CSM...
WH Space is in the most cases the home of small and middle sized corps, starting from 5 to 50 Members.
The only reason i see in this changes are they dont want the lil ones survive in the WH Space. Any other reasons are fake or simply lies.
The only group who gets their sugar out of this deal, are the big ones, who can afford great escortfleets for Roling or Closing Holes.
We WH Citizens are aware, if we live in High/Low/Null Sec we need to obey to the Empires, and i dont mean the NPC Empires... But in WH Space we are Masters of our own luck. There are days we win, and are days we loose. But to change a working system only for the Sake of changing, damn, if thats now the case at CCP, than some ppl should look for a new work to do.
The only reason to violently get this changes to work, is to Terraform the WH Space a great distance nearer to NullSec...
The time of this game are over who it was a Sandbox, it gets every year closer to what the big ones want, they get it. They only sell it cheap as a Sandbox.
I feel like this is a slow big merchandise campaign of a big firm...
Panem et circenses |
Marra Moto
Deadspace Knights
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 02:32:00 -
[644] - Quote
We have lived in c5 black hole when nobody wanted them. We made it home for 4 years. We are just a small group of friends. This change will totally destroy our play style. CCP is Killing the small corps with this change. |
Zic Izia
Dark Debts Inc
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 02:34:00 -
[645] - Quote
Hey,
I run a small industrial corp that i have some friends come in and out of as they need a safe haven. I also spend a lot of time in lower C wormholes with this corp or with another sister corp. This kills the way I enjoy my wh. Do I button up? Yes.
Do I still lose ships closing holes, mining, etc? Yes. This just makes it too difficult with 2-3 friends to enjoy our slice of EvE.
I'm just hugely disappointed. There were so many ways to go without changing existing features for the worse. |
Zan Ward
Deadspace Knights
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 02:42:00 -
[646] - Quote
Boo? I've flown logistics for at least a year and a half with my core group, and I think we're about ready to failscade based on these changes.
That's on us, but it doesn't seem like we're alone. |
MicroNova
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 04:14:00 -
[647] - Quote
CCP Fozzie's states the Dev's intentions for the Hyperion patch are:
1) Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most havenGÇÖt changed in many years 2) Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to GÇÿtameGÇÖ and control wormhole mechanics 3) Address some of the imbalance between wormhole environment effects 4) Address some of the imbalance between wormhole classes
(Numbering is mine)
At first glance the MBSD change seems to satisfy all 4 aspects, however after considering many of the well presented salient points in this thread it becomes clear that the MBSD would actually work against the first half of goal 2 and the entirety of goal 4.
In regards to #2. The ability to collapse a WH is the ability to "engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life" IMHO this is the premier reason to live in a WH. In many ways we are using the emergent mechanic of rolling to a new chain of WH's as a content generation tool.
Currently we can close undesirable links to avoid certain hostile situations, but more often than not we are proactively seeking connections that have a substantial positive effect on content creation, whether that is PVP, PVE, Travel, Logistical efforts, or Exploration. This closely correlates to Hilmar's 2013 Fanfest Keynote speech when he describes a jetcan mining op... wait... they're doing what??? holy crap that's cool and better than what we thought.
In regards to #4. MBSD would make rolling much more risky for smaller groups (who presumably live in C1's, 2's & 3's) perhaps to the point of reducing players to POS spin instead of taking the risks of ship loss (which proportionally have much higher value to a smaller corp). Clearly this is the opposite of the stated intent.
Further, our current practice satisfies the first half of #2 far better than the MBSD. Yes, it comes at the expense of the latter half, but the benefits of being able to explo-roll (to generate all types of content) vs rage-roll (create a one jump link so a corp can easily deploy a capital supported force) is an important distinction to consider.
One idea that would satisfy all of the stated goals could be a deployable module that facilitates collapsing wormholes.
In use, the capsuleer would activate the module and protect it while the timer runs. At the end of each cycle it would collapse the hole by reducing a portion of the remaining useable mass. To facilitate an aggressor, the opposing side of the WH would have it's signal strength in the probe scanner boosted to 100% as well as giving a visible and audible state change to the WH itself (I recommend the sound of a screaming goat).
The amount of time the module would need to collapse could be scaled to impede rage-rolling but still allow timely closing for explo-rolling while automatically working faster on lower class/mass WH's. The environmental effects of the various WH types could also play into the time required to collapse the WH. Perhaps an hour for a vanilla C6, scaling down to 10 minutes for a C1.
Additionally some interesting combat scenarios could develop from having a variety of meta / tech / faction variants that provide different ranges vs EHP vs resists vs timings. Additional curbs could also be provided through having it consume some type of PI produced fuel, it's cost, how it is created in game, and the skill tree.
Yes, this module would make it possible for a lone pilot to collapse an uncontested WH. However, in this capsuleers opinion, the benefit of being able to find and generate content outweighs the downsides of controlling the wormhole mechanics. This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's. |
Sith1s Spectre
1138
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 04:59:00 -
[648] - Quote
MicroNova wrote: One idea that would satisfy all of the stated goals could be a deployable module that facilitates collapsing wormholes.
No - WH space doesn't need more risk free closing of wormholes. You want to close the thing - commit your ships AU tz best tz
|
MicroNova
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 05:20:00 -
[649] - Quote
[/quote]
No - WH space doesn't need more risk free closing of wormholes. You want to close the thing - commit your ships[/quote]
What I described is far from risk free.
Have you got a better idea? |
Van Kuzco
Stryker Industries
76
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 05:22:00 -
[650] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:MicroNova wrote: One idea that would satisfy all of the stated goals could be a deployable module that facilitates collapsing wormholes.
No - WH space doesn't need more risk free closing of wormholes. You want to close the thing - commit your ships
I don't get it. Unless you are rolling a hisec hole any roller will be polarized and the enemy fleet can jump through and catch the ship on the other side? Sure it requires the hunters to commit into an unknown hole, but isn't that how it should be? |
|
Sith1s Spectre
1139
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 05:39:00 -
[651] - Quote
MicroNova wrote: Have you got a better idea?
Put webs on the battleship/s that you use in addition to your capital ship - web the cap off and have it warp back to the hole @ 0?
Doesn't seem that hard tbh AU tz best tz
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
267
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 05:49:00 -
[652] - Quote
EDIT: Original post came out wrong. I hope NGR puts this on the Agenda for tonight NGR AU show. As I'm going to enjoy getting in on the conversation and given a point of view from a group other than c5s... But yeah I agree with you Sith1s, it is way too easy to roll holes now. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 05:54:00 -
[653] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:MicroNova wrote: Have you got a better idea?
Put webs on the battleship/s that you use in addition to your capital ship - web the cap off and have it warp back to the hole @ 0? Doesn't seem that hard tbh That would take as long as slowboatin back to to hole. The setup to do that also needs more people. The result wilt be no more rolling with caps unless there is a big backup fleet. And so no one will be catching a lone closing cap anymore. This change is terrible. |
bongpacks
Mudbug Acquisition Of Empire
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 05:58:00 -
[654] - Quote
I've been living in a C2 wormhole since 2010 and I just can't get behind this mass based spawn distance...thing. I'm in a small corp of only three active players with one having an alt so you could say four pilots altogether. It's already a chore for us to roll for a new static and you're trying to make that take even longer AND more dangerous?
Often times I find myself the only player even online in my corp, this is just going to make POS logistics with an orca a huge risk even if I can get someone to log on to watch my back. What of the times when I get K162s from high class holes with HUGE alliances in them? Am I supposed to just log off or maybe you want me to go into K-Space and waste tons of time for minimal reward. You already killed solo griefing in highsec which was basically the only fun thing I found to do in K-space besides collecting corpses.
I like the majority of the changes proposed for the new release, but I feel that the MBSD and the frigate holes are just geared towards the huge already established wormhole entities. Really what small corp is going to field a frigate fleet into a hostile wormhole? I'll probably be called out for not looking at this from all angles or even whining/entitlement ect. but the change isn't going to be good for small corps like my own. The only plus side I can think of would be if I dedicated myself to camping my statics all day long as it would be easier to catch the occasional trespasser but that's just as boring as mining imho.
The ideas for deployables that can collapse wormholes I like, would give players like me that often find themselves playing during their corporations off times an option for rolling holes that doesn't involve an hour of smashing at it with a BS or quite carelessly warping around solo with an orca. I think the align time alone for these large ships is risk enough, so what if they can just jump right back through, not like they're going to insta-warp away once they hit the other side.
I have no experience with W-space capital warfare so I can't comment on that. No, just no.
|
John Starski
Imperial Navy Lobsters U N K N O W N
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 06:00:00 -
[655] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:MicroNova wrote: Have you got a better idea?
Put webs on the battleship/s that you use in addition to your capital ship - web the cap off and have it warp back to the hole @ 0? Doesn't seem that hard tbh
It's like: yesterday to start your car you needed just to turn the key. Today new rules came out and you need to run 10 circles around it yelling: "CCP rules!", clap 10 times and do a flip in right order then put all 4 wheels back, honk three times and start engine with screwdriver. And randomguy says to you:"It's okay, you can even clap and do a flip in the same time!". Great, did this guy's advice somehow change the fact that all this actions are pointless and just complete waste of time? |
Vasyamba
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 08:16:00 -
[656] - Quote
I just dont understand why CCP has to change something thats not a problem... the defender already has an advantage of having capitals in there home system, why make it harder for the attackers to field capitals...?
|
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 08:25:00 -
[657] - Quote
Vasyamba wrote:I just dont understand why CCP has to change something thats not a problem... the defender already has an advantage of having capitals in there home system, why make it harder for the attackers to field capitals...?
I'm afraid the answer is depressingly simple. Properly iterating wormholes, or much else, will take too much developer time away from whatever the current big idea is. So they're left with fiddling round the edges with what can be managed. i.e. this. We've already had from one of the Horse's mouths that POS code hasn't been touched because its 'too difficult'. Which to my mind says a lot more about CCP than the code in question. I suspect some of the other major player gripes (like Sov) also fall into this category. |
Janeway84
Its a good day to die
93
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 08:27:00 -
[658] - Quote
wrote:
It's like: yesterday to start your car you needed just to turn the key. Today new rules came out and you need to run 10 circles around it yelling: "CCP rules!", clap 10 times and do a flip in right order then put all 4 wheels back, honk three times and start engine with screwdriver. And randomguy says to you:"It's okay, you can even clap and do a flip in the same time!". Great, did this guy's advice somehow change the fact that all this actions are pointless and just complete waste of time?
this |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 09:41:00 -
[659] - Quote
This is a bad change in the wh mechanics. To understand how bad, just imagine that when cyno-ing a group of caps in nullsec you'll have them dropped inside a 40 km diameter sphere. This will just deter any offensive use of capitals in large PvP fights in W-space or null. Yes I know it's been said a thousand time but I'm under the impression it fell on deaf CCP ears (or is that blind eyes). P.S. When are you going to remove local in null? |
Eryn Velasquez
60
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 10:01:00 -
[660] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:.... P.S. When are you going to remove local in null?
When we get anchorable structures which scan the whole system permanently - even in wh-systems GÇ£A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.GÇ¥-áGÇò Jean-Jacques Rousseau-á |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
956
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 10:01:00 -
[661] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Also, the people in the lower down holes should be pushing for these changes to go through because if it reduces the amount of farming holes - it can only be a good thing for your nanoribbon prices and gas prices. come on man, the large groups dont give 2 fks about the extra risk because they can protect their rolling fleets. it actually has the exact opposite result to what youre saying; it screws the small corps, who can't protect their rollers, and hugely benefits the large corps who can. saying this will have any effect on nano prices is extremely naive. It won't. PS: If you dont believe me, go back and look at who is happy about this change. The vast majority are people who spend their WH lives in large C5/6 'elite pvp' groups. Actually, you are both off the ball on this, you are missing the neon, electrically lit elephant in the room.
Every wormhole corp of every side is disadvantaged by this.
But
A group with capitals coming from outside, gains every advantage. When have a group from nullsec EVER closed a wormhole when running sites. But they can make absolutely sure they can drop a cyno on a WH corp who does now. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Samsara Nolte
Sternenschauer AG W.A.S. Alliance - Weapons Armor or Shield
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 10:05:00 -
[662] - Quote
Thea Nalelmir wrote:What is this particular change supposed to do again?
Uhmm, by metrics sure rolling WHs is "easy" the pros have it down to an art form, but that is after a lot of practice. Don't believe me? Have someone do it without any experience and see what happens. Rage-rolling only really happens with local superiority, without that it becomes really dangerous. If you want more engagement in WHs you need more people in WHs. More people and rage-rolling becomes a lot harder, there is always the chance to get dropped on and your rolling can get stomped on. The real problem is that you have to find people doing it. The extra 30 seconds maybe a minute that this will add is pointless. All you have to do is have another 'toon web you to about 180 Km away, and another stationed there to web ya back, it that easy. This entire code turns into a waste of time, leaving very little input.
Yeah like it is so easy to do that - I lost count on how many times my alliance had an cloaked Interdictor parked next to a wh waiting for the other site to come online or bring something to our side ... Before this proposed change (no i-¦m not gonna accept this is happening I-¦ havent given up the hope yet) we had in most case hope that they wait long enough for their timers to reset ... when this goes live all we have to is wait till they try to close it ... and when they try your above stated trick they will be in a world of hurt - because this will exactly be the thing we will be waiting for - the moment he warps away in whatevcer kind of ship the bubble will be up ... forcing him to crawl back to the hole and if his friends aren-¦t abel to bring in superior numbers through the already damaged hole, which is quite a possibility since we are a rather small alliance - he will lose not only his ship but his capsule as well. And to be honest i also lost count on how many occasion we discovered that we had a cloaked interdictor sitting within our hole for hours before we came online. So please for the love of god, could you and everybody else who mentioned it please stop to bring this supposed "counter" up and up again, because it clearly isn-¦t one to the new mechanics. This change, like i tried to explain at lenght here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4879997#post4879997 before in the now closed thread does nothing else than tipping the scales in favour of the big wh corps and the null and low sec cartels - then closing a hole leading into such space, when there is just one single person in local capable of opening a cyno will be a painstaking endeavour - and they, contrary to common belief exist, null sec systems where people are actually playing the game. I once again appeal to CCP that this change is the first step in handing over w-space to the big ones. This will like many have stated wage the engangments in short term timeframes but long term there will be a wasteland of activity in w-space, then to be honest with you i-¦have my reasonable doubt that my alliance is gonna survive this change ... well we most likely will try to adapt, but you don-¦t find guys ypu get along with and can trust overnight - exspecially the trust part is an utmost necessity given the pos rights - and i sincerly doubt our actuall member base will be to happy about the need to grow at least 3-4 times bigger just to not lose ships every time we try to close a null or other big hole. And to furhter this if i woulk have wanted to be part of the big ones i would be living in null ...
Well what i would like to add is that ccp is raising the risk for everybody living in w-space a great deal but where is the increase in reward - i always though risk equalls reward - which implies by raising the stakes at which you have to play the riches schould be raised as well. Man life would be easy if i could just make hundreds of Millions by tending to moon mining pos, protected by a huge alliance ... but we living in wh have to fight the hardest rats, while doing that exposing our ships to potential enemys lying already in wait or rolling into us, and are given the hardest earned isk there is - we don-¦t get bounty directly paid to our wallets we have to loot and salvage the wrecks to get items, which we have to store in our pos sitting in w-space, potentially being at risk to be destroyed ... wait for days to come ... where we find an exit to be able to bring the loot outside for it to be sold on the market ... having on the way to the market cross several w-space systems permanently being at risk of losing the hard earned loot ... which is gonna leave you with nothing ... what actually is gonna happen a lot more often given these changes .... sarcasm on"but all in all sounds quite reasonable, everybody atm not living in w-space is gonna want to after this changes" saracasm out
i just don-¦t see it - sorry. |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 10:19:00 -
[663] - Quote
Eryn Velasquez wrote:Lenroc Elisav wrote:.... P.S. When are you going to remove local in null? When we get anchorable structures which scan the whole system permanently - even in wh-systems
Really?!? That doesn't sound like a fun structure, but I think we are straying off topic. Unless that structure requires a human on-grid operator which I could live with. |
Samsara Nolte
Sternenschauer AG W.A.S. Alliance - Weapons Armor or Shield
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 10:27:00 -
[664] - Quote
further when we have one of the big ones right next to us - and we won-¦t be able to close the connection somethign that is happening atm and will be happening a lot lot more often should this go live - we can-¦t like the ones living in null just clone jump into high when there is a fleet waiting outside their ratting system (what is the best example i could come up with) and do some missions or other stuff like null sec and low sec residents are able to and come back tomorrow. We don-¦t have that option - we would have to take our covert ops ship fly through a random number of wormholes knowing that the big fish next to you sees you doing that having to pray that they haven-¦t prepared for this scenario ... then you might have a two digit big number of jumps before you until you reach the place where you are able to accept LvL 4 Missions and have your mission ship standing - i don-¦t know about your standards but calling this an inconvenience is an understatment .... oh wait there-¦s always that left to do ... i-¦m certain someone is gonna point out for sure trying to invalidat above stated argument - you can just destroy your pod - sarcasm on "Yeah sure i could i just happen like everybody else not o have an imp in my head, and since i will always be able to kill sleeper i have the isk to spare to buy a new clone" |
Mithandra
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 11:56:00 -
[665] - Quote
This will certainly increase the risk and promote both consensual and non-consensual PvP
Rolling holes will be more difficult, time consuming and dangerous. So? Adapt
It will certainly change most corps and individuals gameplay style. So? Adapt
Its a WH. We were not meant to be here in the first place, but here we are. Still; after all these years.
We learn, test, adapt and develop.
We are Wormholers not cossetted Nullbears. We are meant to be alert not complacent
I do agree that this will probably benefit the larger corporations as opposed to the mom and pop one stop shops we see sprouting up all the time. So? It's EvE , not the women's institute. Adapt.
Thirty odd pages of comments. Some well worded and thought out, some actually brilliant, some just teen angst and bile.
I predict a few weeks of rage rolling mayhem, destruction and forum warfare, then things will settle down. New doctrine will emerge, people will leave, more people will arrive. The wormholes will still be our homes.
I'm not happy with the change as it is, but meh, I'll adapt.
|
Adriana Mal'Valeran
Zero Fun Allowed
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 11:59:00 -
[666] - Quote
So when's the 1000MN microwarpdrive devblog coming out? |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
132
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 12:07:00 -
[667] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:This will certainly increase the risk and promote both consensual and non-consensual PvP
Rolling holes will be more difficult, time consuming and dangerous. So? Adapt
It will certainly change most corps and individuals gameplay style. So? Adapt
Its a WH. We were not meant to be here in the first place, but here we are. Still; after all these years.
We learn, test, adapt and develop.
We are Wormholers not cossetted Nullbears. We are meant to be alert not complacent
I do agree that this will probably benefit the larger corporations as opposed to the mom and pop one stop shops we see sprouting up all the time. So? It's EvE , not the women's institute. Adapt.
Thirty odd pages of comments. Some well worded and thought out, some actually brilliant, some just teen angst and bile.
I predict a few weeks of rage rolling mayhem, destruction and forum warfare, then things will settle down. New doctrine will emerge, people will leave, more people will arrive. The wormholes will still be our homes.
I'm not happy with the change as it is, but meh, I'll adapt.
You agruments are not valid. This Will not promote pvp and Will only empty W-space even more. You did not read this thread. No more cap fights, no more small to medium corps only empty wasteland. No one Will be joining only leaving because of this. |
Mithandra
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 12:21:00 -
[668] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Mithandra wrote:This will certainly increase the risk and promote both consensual and non-consensual PvP
Rolling holes will be more difficult, time consuming and dangerous. So? Adapt
It will certainly change most corps and individuals gameplay style. So? Adapt
Its a WH. We were not meant to be here in the first place, but here we are. Still; after all these years.
We learn, test, adapt and develop.
We are Wormholers not cossetted Nullbears. We are meant to be alert not complacent
I do agree that this will probably benefit the larger corporations as opposed to the mom and pop one stop shops we see sprouting up all the time. So? It's EvE , not the women's institute. Adapt.
Thirty odd pages of comments. Some well worded and thought out, some actually brilliant, some just teen angst and bile.
I predict a few weeks of rage rolling mayhem, destruction and forum warfare, then things will settle down. New doctrine will emerge, people will leave, more people will arrive. The wormholes will still be our homes.
I'm not happy with the change as it is, but meh, I'll adapt.
You agruments are not valid. This Will not promote pvp and Will only empty W-space even more. You did not read this thread. No more cap fights, no more small to medium corps only empty wasteland. No one Will be joining only leaving because of this.
I didn't pose any arguments. Merely a statement. Adapt.
Adapt or go play something else.
If you take the second option please feel free to contract your stuff to me at the nearest hisec hole on your way out. |
Yidea Tyn
Blue-Fire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 12:40:00 -
[669] - Quote
My proposal...
1st jump.. as per normal(current) 2nd jump which causes polarization.. as per new proposal of ccp
You have to warp off anyways when polarised if you rage rolling and this forces you to manage how often you jump if having a battle on a whole.
**edit if you want to stay on the hole you can surely slow boat back while your timer ticks |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 12:46:00 -
[670] - Quote
Mithandra wrote: I didn't pose any arguments. Merely a statement. Adapt.
Adapt or go play something else.
If you take the second option please feel free to contract your stuff to me at the nearest hisec hole on your way out.
Right, so people leaving the game is fine by your opinion. Thats interesting. Bet thats exactly aim of CCP.
How about YOU adapt to what we have to far and find it okay, instead of telling majority with same opinion to do that. Oh the trolls. |
|
Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus Aeterna Anima
303
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 12:59:00 -
[671] - Quote
Thread a bit long, so don't know if that's already proposed:
Would it be technically possible to spawn capitals - on the condition that another capital from the same fleet is already on the other side - within the spawn parameters, but ALSO within a reasonable range (i.e. refit/rep range) of its already spawned fleet member?
That would still put the rolling fleet into reasonable risk to be forced to commit to combat, but would at least not put them into such a terrible position in said forced combat.
(Might also make sense for subcaps, but not be as essential, i suppose) |
Mithandra
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 13:23:00 -
[672] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Mithandra wrote: I didn't pose any arguments. Merely a statement. Adapt.
Adapt or go play something else.
If you take the second option please feel free to contract your stuff to me at the nearest hisec hole on your way out.
Right, so people leaving the game is fine by your opinion. Thats interesting. Bet thats exactly aim of CCP. How about YOU adapt to what we have to far and find it okay, instead of telling majority with same opinion to do that. Oh the trolls.
The problem with a lot of the people who post "oh noes the sky is falling" threads is that they "understand" the current mechanics, they've got comfortable with the current mechanics, and they hate anything that threatens their self imagined expertise with the mechanics, or their isk per hour calculations based on those mechanics.
Wormholes are supposed to be random, unpredictable, and scary
Currently if I do "A", I know "B" follows shortly
If I scan "X" I know "Y" is behind it
We know how to run sites with zero loss (unless drink is a factor)
We know how to close holes in less than a minute
We know how to pick a fight or how to avoid one.
That sounds more like null sec to me than a wormhole.
If people are afraid of change, they bury their head in the sand and do not evolve. Evolution is painful, but the survivors are always stronger than before.
If people would rather leave than adapt then they should head to null sec and farm for one of the renter corps. I make no apologies for holding that opinion. Don't like it? Tough.
We need change, added risk, things to challenge us, things to add the risk factor back to wh space.
What we don't need is an "OMG EVE is failing" whineasaurus
|
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 13:31:00 -
[673] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Mithandra wrote: I didn't pose any arguments. Merely a statement. Adapt.
Adapt or go play something else.
If you take the second option please feel free to contract your stuff to me at the nearest hisec hole on your way out.
Right, so people leaving the game is fine by your opinion. Thats interesting. Bet thats exactly aim of CCP. How about YOU adapt to what we have to far and find it okay, instead of telling majority with same opinion to do that. Oh the trolls. The problem with a lot of the people who post "oh noes the sky is falling" threads is that they "understand" the current mechanics, they've got comfortable with the current mechanics, and they hate anything that threatens their self imagined expertise with the mechanics, or their isk per hour calculations based on those mechanics. Wormholes are supposed to be random, unpredictable, and scary Currently if I do "A", I know "B" follows shortly If I scan "X" I know "Y" is behind it We know how to run sites with zero loss (unless drink is a factor) We know how to close holes in less than a minute We know how to pick a fight or how to avoid one. That sounds more like null sec to me than a wormhole. If people are afraid of change, they bury their head in the sand and do not evolve. Evolution is painful, but the survivors are always stronger than before. If people would rather leave than adapt then they should head to null sec and farm for one of the renter corps. I make no apologies for holding that opinion. Don't like it? Tough. We need change, added risk, things to challenge us, things to add the risk factor back to wh space. What we don't need is an "OMG EVE is failing" whineasaurus
So more risk, less reward. Delay local in null by 30 secs. I dare you. WHs are alraedy dangerous enough. Ive lost fair amount of ships to all kind of WH surprises. If by unpredictable you mean that I spawn away from wormhole and have to slowboat / rewarp to close useless dead end hole, oh well.
If you want a risk, go annoy BU in WH or something. Having ships end up farther from the hole is not a risk, its annoying nuisance. Eventually it will stop anybody small enough from rolling holes. Surely does generate content. Unless in your interesting post you missed it, its about distance from the hole here. HOw that is scary or unpredictable is beyond me. How can you compare it crap, I mean nullsec, where everything is so obvious it would make stones cry, I dont get as well.
This change is for worse, killing WHs and not generating anything. IF you are okay with 90 % leaving and 10 % adapting, good. Bet marketing of CCP will love you, ill happily throw my money at other games, then to play a game where they are fixing what is okay by adding broken features, as you can very easily tell from the feedback. Or should they all adapt? Saw the very first post? Majority of WH dwelling corps are against.
Go to null. |
Mithandra
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 13:53:00 -
[674] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Mithandra wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Mithandra wrote: I didn't pose any arguments. Merely a statement. Adapt.
Adapt or go play something else.
If you take the second option please feel free to contract your stuff to me at the nearest hisec hole on your way out.
Right, so people leaving the game is fine by your opinion. Thats interesting. Bet thats exactly aim of CCP. How about YOU adapt to what we have to far and find it okay, instead of telling majority with same opinion to do that. Oh the trolls. The problem with a lot of the people who post "oh noes the sky is falling" threads is that they "understand" the current mechanics, they've got comfortable with the current mechanics, and they hate anything that threatens their self imagined expertise with the mechanics, or their isk per hour calculations based on those mechanics. Wormholes are supposed to be random, unpredictable, and scary Currently if I do "A", I know "B" follows shortly If I scan "X" I know "Y" is behind it We know how to run sites with zero loss (unless drink is a factor) We know how to close holes in less than a minute We know how to pick a fight or how to avoid one. That sounds more like null sec to me than a wormhole. If people are afraid of change, they bury their head in the sand and do not evolve. Evolution is painful, but the survivors are always stronger than before. If people would rather leave than adapt then they should head to null sec and farm for one of the renter corps. I make no apologies for holding that opinion. Don't like it? Tough. We need change, added risk, things to challenge us, things to add the risk factor back to wh space. What we don't need is an "OMG EVE is failing" whineasaurus So more risk, less reward. Delay local in null by 30 secs. I dare you. WHs are alraedy dangerous enough. Ive lost fair amount of ships to all kind of WH surprises. If by unpredictable you mean that I spawn away from wormhole and have to slowboat / rewarp to close useless dead end hole, oh well. If you want a risk, go annoy BU in WH or something. Having ships end up farther from the hole is not a risk, its annoying nuisance. Eventually it will stop anybody small enough from rolling holes. Surely does generate content. Unless in your interesting post you missed it, its about distance from the hole here. HOw that is scary or unpredictable is beyond me. How can you compare it crap, I mean nullsec, where everything is so obvious it would make stones cry, I dont get as well. This change is for worse, killing WHs and not generating anything. IF you are okay with 90 % leaving and 10 % adapting, good. Bet marketing of CCP will love you, ill happily throw my money at other games, then to play a game where they are fixing what is okay by adding broken features, as you can very easily tell from the feedback. Or should they all adapt? Saw the very first post? Majority of WH dwelling corps are against. Go to null.
Why would I go to Null apart from to raid its juicy mining fleets?. I live in a C5. Personally I'd love it if they removed local from Nullsec. Would make my WORMHOLE corporations roams that much more fun.
And another thing. How is a capital 20k from the hole just annoying? My corp has a name for carriers that far from a hole, it's "target of opportunity" So how is that not an added risk?
You fail at both comprehension and imagination.
As for your 90% leaving and 10% staying. I'll bet you right here, right now that the reverse will be true. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
699
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 14:09:00 -
[675] - Quote
Chi'Nane T'Kal wrote: Would it be technically possible to spawn capitals - on the condition that another capital from the same fleet is already on the other side - within the spawn parameters, but ALSO within a reasonable range (i.e. refit/rep range) of its already spawned fleet member?
That is a horrid hack from a game development point of view - that you can propose something like that in a manner that is somewhat serious as a suggestion tends to show the underlying idea that caused it to be proposed is faulty.
|
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 14:47:00 -
[676] - Quote
MicroNova wrote:CCP Fozzie's states the Dev's intentions for the Hyperion patch are:
1) Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most havenGÇÖt changed in many years 2) Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to GÇÿtameGÇÖ and control wormhole mechanics 3) Address some of the imbalance between wormhole environment effects 4) Address some of the imbalance between wormhole classes
(Numbering is mine)
At first glance the MBSD change seems to satisfy all 4 aspects, however after considering many of the well presented salient points in this thread it becomes clear that the MBSD would actually work against the first half of goal 2 and the entirety of goal 4.
In regards to #2. The ability to collapse a WH is the ability to "engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life" IMHO this is the premier reason to live in a WH. In many ways we are using the emergent mechanic of rolling to a new chain of WH's as a content generation tool.
Currently we can close undesirable links to avoid certain hostile situations, but more often than not we are proactively seeking connections that have a substantial positive effect on content creation, whether that is PVP, PVE, Travel, Logistical efforts, or Exploration. This closely correlates to Hilmar's 2013 Fanfest Keynote speech when he describes a jetcan mining op... wait... they're doing what??? holy crap that's cool and better than what we thought.
In regards to #4. MBSD would make rolling much more risky for smaller groups (who presumably live in C1's, 2's & 3's) perhaps to the point of reducing players to POS spin instead of taking the risks of ship loss (which proportionally have much higher value to a smaller corp). Clearly this is the opposite of the stated intent.
Further, our current practice satisfies the first half of #2 far better than the MBSD. Yes, it comes at the expense of the latter half, but the benefits of being able to explo-roll (to generate all types of content) vs rage-roll (create a one jump link so a corp can easily deploy a capital supported force) is an important distinction to consider.
One idea that would satisfy all of the stated goals could be a deployable module that facilitates collapsing wormholes.
In use, the capsuleer would activate the module and protect it while the timer runs. At the end of each cycle it would collapse the hole by reducing a portion of the remaining useable mass. To facilitate an aggressor, the opposing side of the WH would have it's signal strength in the probe scanner boosted to 100% as well as giving a visible and audible state change to the WH itself (I recommend the sound of a screaming goat).
The amount of time the module would need to collapse could be scaled to impede rage-rolling but still allow timely closing for explo-rolling while automatically working faster on lower class/mass WH's. The environmental effects of the various WH types could also play into the time required to collapse the WH. Perhaps an hour for a vanilla C6, scaling down to 10 minutes for a C1.
Additionally some interesting combat scenarios could develop from having a variety of meta / tech / faction variants that provide different ranges vs EHP vs resists vs timings. Additional curbs could also be provided through having it consume some type of PI produced fuel, it's cost, how it is created in game, and the skill tree.
Yes, this module would make it possible for a lone pilot to collapse an uncontested WH. However, in this capsuleers opinion, the benefit of being able to find and generate content outweighs the downsides of controlling the wormhole mechanics. This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's.
This would provide MORE content. Love the screaming goat part!
If no one is home on the other side, no change. If a pvp gang is online and paying any kind of attention, they now have something and someone to shoot at, since they know someone put the thing up. MORE content. We can set up to defend the module. MORE content. The folks on the other side can choose to 1) do a fast scout in something pretty much uncatchable, (inty) 2) Choose to pour a combat fleet through, and smash us like bugs. MORE content. 3) Choose to allow the hole to collapse, creating the opportunity for another one to pop up. MORE content.
" This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's."
MOAR CONTENT!
|
Zosius
United System's Commonwealth
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 14:50:00 -
[677] - Quote
I for one, welcome capital spawn change. All these ******* times, when you lay a trap and you have to bail, because jumping after capital to enemy home system is disadvantageous. Now you can score some nice kills and not necessarily commit full fleet without exit.
While it's true that large corps have more advantages, but that is valid for anything you point finger at. They can commit and jump after your capital anyway, so it won't change much. Now you actually have a chance catching solo capitals closing WH with few fleet support, which can escalate to small medium gang fights as you dont kill CAP in 30seconds with just subcaps.
Frigate change is nonsense. I can't wait to sit in a frigate to be popped in 5sec after being primaried and lose my implants and start journey back to home to be popped again in another frigate fight. I am bringing smartbombing Rokh is what I will be doing. |
Wun NgoWen
Unforeseen Consequences. The Unthinkables
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 15:03:00 -
[678] - Quote
+1 for great changes
you know you are doing it right when ISK farmers talk about buttoning up !
|
Sith1s Spectre
1142
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 15:09:00 -
[679] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Mithandra wrote:This will certainly increase the risk and promote both consensual and non-consensual PvP
Rolling holes will be more difficult, time consuming and dangerous. So? Adapt
It will certainly change most corps and individuals gameplay style. So? Adapt
Its a WH. We were not meant to be here in the first place, but here we are. Still; after all these years.
We learn, test, adapt and develop.
We are Wormholers not cossetted Nullbears. We are meant to be alert not complacent
I do agree that this will probably benefit the larger corporations as opposed to the mom and pop one stop shops we see sprouting up all the time. So? It's EvE , not the women's institute. Adapt.
Thirty odd pages of comments. Some well worded and thought out, some actually brilliant, some just teen angst and bile.
I predict a few weeks of rage rolling mayhem, destruction and forum warfare, then things will settle down. New doctrine will emerge, people will leave, more people will arrive. The wormholes will still be our homes.
I'm not happy with the change as it is, but meh, I'll adapt.
You agruments are not valid. This Will not promote pvp and Will only empty W-space even more. You did not read this thread. No more cap fights, no more small to medium corps only empty wasteland. No one Will be joining only leaving because of this.
See you're right about alot of people leaving WH space (and already have) but it's not because of the changes or the proposed changes.
It's because it's the same old stagnant horseshit, risk free farming and closing any holes instantly that present a risk. AU tz best tz
|
FleetAdmiralHarper
Capital Abuse
28
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 16:03:00 -
[680] - Quote
why hasnt CCP fozzie been fired yet? everyone in the community hates him..
how come the management is so blind and cant see that he is the cancer eating the game away from the inside??
this is an AWFUL change as is every other change he has made. myself and several other friends have unsubed. wormholes were the last chunk of the game that hadnt been killed by fozzie. and no they are dead too.. rip eve.
changing effects is bad...but this is the worst idea in eve update history...
if you want to do something to wormholes. add Moon mining, nothing fancy just low sec level moons. and add 1 of each type of low sec ice to each of the wh grav belts.. that way people still need to come out to high or null and get isotopic ice, the people would love you for that. but no fozzie, you want 95% of the wormhole community to rage quit the game, and you want people to unsub. so wish granted.
no one likes this. no one asked for this. i cant believe youre gonna push it out anyway XD ha ha bad dev is bad. |
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3380
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 16:47:00 -
[681] - Quote
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:why hasnt CCP fozzie been fired yet? everyone in the community hates him..
how come the management is so blind and cant see that he is the cancer eating the game away from the inside??
this is an AWFUL change as is every other change he has made. myself and several other friends have unsubed. wormholes were the last chunk of the game that hadnt been killed by fozzie, and now they are dead too.. rip eve.
changing system effects is bad...but this is the worst idea in eve update history...
if you want to do something to wormholes. add Moon mining, nothing fancy just low sec level moons, more statics and wonderings, and add 1 cube of each type of low sec ice to each of the wh grav belts.. that way people still need to come out to high or null and get isotopic ice, and trade goods. the people would love you for that. but no fozzie, you want 95% of the wormhole community to rage quit the game, and you want people to unsub. so wish granted.
no one likes this. no one asked for this. i cant believe youre gonna push it out anyway XD ha ha bad dev is bad.
I have said it before, will say it again. Null sec cartels can't control wh income ingame, so they get the dev's to wreck it. You think this is bad? Wait until you see the nerfs to T3 ships, wiping out the market for them, killing wh income even further. |
Zosius
United System's Commonwealth
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 16:54:00 -
[682] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:tears more tears
this thread is too hilarious. All I can see is more pvp when fleets try to save tackled dread, instead of rolling out dangerous exits before guys on the other side can even scan it. |
Nightingale Actault
Big Richard Club
38
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 17:01:00 -
[683] - Quote
Seriously,
Your design goals here: Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most havenGÇÖt changed in many years Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to GÇÿtameGÇÖ and control wormhole mechanics Address some of the imbalance between wormhole environment effects Address some of the imbalance between wormhole classes
While I don't think you're saying it explicitly, your others that apply to this particular change are: Break the brawling meta and increase pvp ship variety. Force tough decisions regarding Capital use and when to commit them.
The brawling meta is here as a result of the physical size and spawn distance of wormholes. You want to increase the variety of ships that can be used without breaking the mechanics wormholers already understand, you simply increase the physical size of wormholes. If you had a 15km wormhole, with current spawn mechanics you could still end up nearly 25km away from someone who jumped through the same wormhole. Get a bad spawn within 10k of your opponent? Take the risk of polarizing yourself to see if you get a better spawn distance and opportunity for a more favorable engagement.
This option also handles the "catch cloaky scouts" problem you've introduced with your proposed solution.
As for capital ships and the choice of committing them, you then have to decide to risk spawning outside of refit range if you want to commit multiple capitals to the battle.
Even warping to a wormhole from different positions in a system could land you on the opposite side of the hole from someone else, there's your variety and randomness right there... |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 17:05:00 -
[684] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:why hasnt CCP fozzie been fired yet? everyone in the community hates him..
how come the management is so blind and cant see that he is the cancer eating the game away from the inside??
this is an AWFUL change as is every other change he has made. myself and several other friends have unsubed. wormholes were the last chunk of the game that hadnt been killed by fozzie, and now they are dead too.. rip eve.
changing system effects is bad...but this is the worst idea in eve update history...
if you want to do something to wormholes. add Moon mining, nothing fancy just low sec level moons, more statics and wonderings, and add 1 cube of each type of low sec ice to each of the wh grav belts.. that way people still need to come out to high or null and get isotopic ice, and trade goods. the people would love you for that. but no fozzie, you want 95% of the wormhole community to rage quit the game, and you want people to unsub. so wish granted.
no one likes this. no one asked for this. i cant believe youre gonna push it out anyway XD ha ha bad dev is bad. I have said it before, will say it again. Null sec cartels can't control wh income ingame, so they get the dev's to wreck it. You think this is bad? Wait until you see the nerfs to T3 ships, wiping out the market for them, killing wh income even further.
How come so many wormholers can't see how many of these changes benefit nullblocks? I agree with you. Most changes will shut small corps, since many things inherently tied to wspace, such as rolling and system control, will need more numbers. It will get annoying for large corps, but nigh impossible for the small ones. Who has the numbers to jump frig holes? |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 17:16:00 -
[685] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote:Since CCP appears to be actually following this thread.............
We live in a c3/low static. Have for years. The collective changes proposed for wormholes will have this result for us.
1) We will be less active in the hole, except for cloaked alts keeping an eye on traffic. Provides LESS content for others.
2) We will increase the number of PI alts we have, they log on for 15 minutes every 4 days. LESS content for others. If a no implant alt in a hauler gets blown up once in a while by frig roams, we won't care.
3) We will run sleeper sites only under very specific conditions, meaning few cross holes to watch. LESS content for others. We will never jump though connections to other wormholes if it means the K162 won't open on their side. LESS content.
4) We will probably never mine, ever, something we do now fairly regularly. LESS content for others.
5) Under current conditions, we balance risk vs. reward. Every so often we get blown up, once in a while blow someone else up. Under new conditions, the risk vs reward means we will take less risks, LESS content for us/others.
6) Under incoming conditions, our hisec mission runners will probably train up to incursion runners. And provide LESS content for others.
7) Even a carebear at heart like me gets tired of shooting red crosses. Eventually this will result in 4 lost accounts for CCP. Sooner rather than later if this type of silliness continues. LESS content for others.
A large portion of this thread espouses the viewpoints of higher class wh dwellers. They make many valid points. Now you propose to scatter their rolling/pvp fleet all over space when they enter my wormhole. If what I see on my scout makes me think we can engage successfully, we will. Wait, doesn't that create more content? No, it doesn't, because under your proposed changes, as they have stated, they only need to not jump through, and the K162 won't spawn on my side.
LESS content. More hassle. Less players who already have a lot of things to deal with in wormhole life. Less Eve players.
LESS content.
Of all the things that are just silly, last patch, (taxing my own facilities by an npc entity for research/industry in the wh? Really?) and now more changes which will generate LESS content, not more, you couldn't come up with something better?
*No none of you can haz my stuff!
I loved your post you're so cute I can't plaswan it enough <3
|
Dersen Lowery
Narwhals Ate My Duck. Narwhals Ate My Duck
1186
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 18:26:00 -
[686] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:I do agree that this will probably benefit the larger corporations as opposed to the mom and pop one stop shops we see sprouting up all the time. So? It's EvE , not the women's institute. Adapt.
Just in case anyone was wondering why EVE is 96% male.
You do realize that the whole appeal of WH space is that its friendly to the little guy? If I wanted to live in nullsec, I would already be living there.
If this goes live, sure, people will adapt and there will likely be a significant shift in the WH meta, which will add a great deal more turnover to a part of the game that already has a very high rate of turnover. But this is a thread discussing a proposed change, so all you're doing here is playing internet hardman.
If CCP really wants to introduce chaos, have all ships spawn randomly 0-40km from the WH, or introduce a random element to WH mass so that you can't ever be 100% positive about what will close the hole. I'm not saying those would be good changes, but they would at least be a PITA for everyone. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 18:36:00 -
[687] - Quote
You can seperate this change into 2 schools of thought from the opposition.
1. " Now i dont have as much warning when someone is coming to my Wormhole so theres more Risk for the same amount of ISK"
and
2. " Only big WH groups will remain because now rolling holes will be too tedious"
My thoughts on this are simple. Wormhole corps and denizens make ISK hand over Fist especially in the higher end categories these changes will bring about more PVP yes, no doubting that. But whether its actual fights or simply warping on top of someone and violence'ing their space ship till it dies doesnt matter, either way its PVP and content. So wormhole corps simply have to abide by the fact things will be more difficult now, and thats a good thing, recent changes have made low and null, even high sec a bit more difficult so why shouldn't Wormholes be a bit harder?
Stop crying about it and do something productive with it, nano battleships are still viable for hole rolling your going to land close enough that your back to the hole in no time. Same goes for HICTORS running the WDFG with plates on. Sure rolling the hole with a dread is tedious now, but you could always bump the dread to the hole with a 100mn cruiser, i bet thats faster than warping it off and back too!
People dont like change when it adds risk without increasing rewards, these people want more ISK to be "Convinced to stay" well heres the cold hard truth, if your not willing to put in the effort to make your living you dont deserve it, wh space will be no better or worse with you there if you have these attitudes.
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
J0HN SHEPPARD
The Icarus Expedition The Daedalus Imperium
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 18:40:00 -
[688] - Quote
bongpacks wrote:I've been living in a C2 wormhole since 2010 and I just can't get behind this mass based spawn distance...thing. I'm in a small corp of only three active players with one having an alt so you could say four pilots altogether. It's already a chore for us to roll for a new static and you're trying to make that take even longer AND more dangerous?
Often times I find myself the only player even online in my corp, this is just going to make POS logistics with an orca a huge risk even if I can get someone to log on to watch my back. What of the times when I get K162s from high class holes with HUGE alliances in them? Am I supposed to just log off or maybe you want me to go into K-Space and waste tons of time for minimal reward. You already killed solo griefing in highsec which was basically the only fun thing I found to do in K-space besides collecting corpses.
I like the majority of the changes proposed for the new release, but I feel that the MBSD and the frigate holes are just geared towards the huge already established wormhole entities. Really what small corp is going to field a frigate fleet into a hostile wormhole? I'll probably be called out for not looking at this from all angles or even whining/entitlement ect. but the change isn't going to be good for small corps like my own. The only plus side I can think of would be if I dedicated myself to camping my statics all day long as it would be easier to catch the occasional trespasser but that's just as boring as mining imho.
The ideas for deployables that can collapse wormholes I like, would give players like me that often find themselves playing during their corporations off times an option for rolling holes that doesn't involve an hour of smashing at it with a BS or quite carelessly warping around solo with an orca. I think the align time alone for these large ships is risk enough, so what if they can just jump right back through, not like they're going to insta-warp away once they hit the other side.
I have no experience with W-space capital warfare so I can't comment on that. No, just no.
Amen brother! I am in the same boat!! its already a hideous task and very damn risky no need to make it a hell of a lot more dangerous! I cant stomach the second static in my home cause I can afford to run another scout client in the background with volume turned way up! but risking more of my ships Orcas and battleships just for the sake of change HECK NO!!
I accept all other changes but this one the only way to make it work is by having a big corp with a lot of escort!
CCP I LOVE YOUR GAME and pretty much didn't say a word about all the changes that were made over the past years! but when u come in and RUIN my way of playing and enjoying the game just for the sake of change...THEN HECK NO I am gonna oppose and speak out!
YOU ARE KILLING SMALL CORPS/GROUPS and pretty much KICKING THEM OUT OF WSpace that they made home and adapted too for a long time now! |
Maxx S
Deutscher Bund Corrosive.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 18:41:00 -
[689] - Quote
Quote:
This would provide MORE content. Love the screaming goat part!
If no one is home on the other side, no change. If a pvp gang is online and paying any kind of attention, they now have something and someone to shoot at, since they know someone put the thing up. MORE content. We can set up to defend the module. MORE content. The folks on the other side can choose to 1) do a fast scout in something pretty much uncatchable, (inty) 2) Choose to pour a combat fleet through, and smash us like bugs. MORE content. 3) Choose to allow the hole to collapse, creating the opportunity for another one to pop up. MORE content.
" This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's."
MOAR CONTENT!
Who needs more content? Why should ALL be prone on PvP, some just DON't want to.
And beside being a member of a HS NPC corp the WH space is (in the moment) the only left area in here.
This will be gone, and for what good? to (again!) enjoy more PvP's... are they the only CCP takes care of??? |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 18:48:00 -
[690] - Quote
Maxx S wrote:Quote:
This would provide MORE content. Love the screaming goat part!
If no one is home on the other side, no change. If a pvp gang is online and paying any kind of attention, they now have something and someone to shoot at, since they know someone put the thing up. MORE content. We can set up to defend the module. MORE content. The folks on the other side can choose to 1) do a fast scout in something pretty much uncatchable, (inty) 2) Choose to pour a combat fleet through, and smash us like bugs. MORE content. 3) Choose to allow the hole to collapse, creating the opportunity for another one to pop up. MORE content.
" This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's."
MOAR CONTENT!
Who needs more content? Why should ALL be prone on PvP, some just DON't want to. And beside being a member of a HS NPC corp the WH space is (in the moment) the only left area in here. This will be gone, and for what good? to (again!) enjoy more PvP's... are they the only CCP takes care of???
There is not a single thing in eve that can't be considered PVP except doing absolutely nothing
Missions are PVP because your competing with other players for the value of the LP and the Price of the loot PVP is PVP because reasons Ratting is PVP because other players could be getting the good spawns you want Market is PVP because everyone sells things
SO yes in a not so loose sense of the word CCP does only take care of PVP, i dont see the point of advertising a game or providing content for people who would do nothing but log in and walk away from the computer and pay 15 a month to do so
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
|
Maxx S
Deutscher Bund Corrosive.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 18:56:00 -
[691] - Quote
J0HN SHEPPARD wrote:bongpacks wrote:I've been living in a C2 wormhole since 2010 and I just can't get behind this mass based spawn distance...thing. I'm in a small corp of only three active players with one having an alt so you could say four pilots altogether. It's already a chore for us to roll for a new static and you're trying to make that take even longer AND more dangerous?
Often times I find myself the only player even online in my corp, this is just going to make POS logistics with an orca a huge risk even if I can get someone to log on to watch my back. What of the times when I get K162s from high class holes with HUGE alliances in them? Am I supposed to just log off or maybe you want me to go into K-Space and waste tons of time for minimal reward. You already killed solo griefing in highsec which was basically the only fun thing I found to do in K-space besides collecting corpses.
I like the majority of the changes proposed for the new release, but I feel that the MBSD and the frigate holes are just geared towards the huge already established wormhole entities. Really what small corp is going to field a frigate fleet into a hostile wormhole? I'll probably be called out for not looking at this from all angles or even whining/entitlement ect. but the change isn't going to be good for small corps like my own. The only plus side I can think of would be if I dedicated myself to camping my statics all day long as it would be easier to catch the occasional trespasser but that's just as boring as mining imho.
The ideas for deployables that can collapse wormholes I like, would give players like me that often find themselves playing during their corporations off times an option for rolling holes that doesn't involve an hour of smashing at it with a BS or quite carelessly warping around solo with an orca. I think the align time alone for these large ships is risk enough, so what if they can just jump right back through, not like they're going to insta-warp away once they hit the other side.
I have no experience with W-space capital warfare so I can't comment on that. No, just no.
Amen brother! I am in the same boat!! its already a hideous task and very damn risky no need to make it a hell of a lot more dangerous! I cant stomach the second static in my home cause I can afford to run another scout client in the background with volume turned way up! but risking more of my ships Orcas and battleships just for the sake of change HECK NO!! I accept all other changes but this one the only way to make it work is by having a big corp with a lot of escort! CCP I LOVE YOUR GAME and pretty much didn't say a word about all the changes that were made over the past years! but when u come in and RUIN my way of playing and enjoying the game just for the sake of change...THEN HECK NO I am gonna oppose and speak out! YOU ARE KILLING SMALL CORPS/GROUPS and pretty much KICKING THEM OUT OF WSpace that they made home and adapted too for a long time now!
100 % agree
after almost 10 years in EVE I feel sick to rethink every few months the direction of how to make this game still fun me.
It si just annoying how less CCP really cares |
Christopher Mabata
Dominion Tenebrarum Reverberation Project
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 18:58:00 -
[692] - Quote
Maxx S wrote:J0HN SHEPPARD wrote:bongpacks wrote:I've been living in a C2 wormhole since 2010 and I just can't get behind this mass based spawn distance...thing. I'm in a small corp of only three active players with one having an alt so you could say four pilots altogether. It's already a chore for us to roll for a new static and you're trying to make that take even longer AND more dangerous?
Often times I find myself the only player even online in my corp, this is just going to make POS logistics with an orca a huge risk even if I can get someone to log on to watch my back. What of the times when I get K162s from high class holes with HUGE alliances in them? Am I supposed to just log off or maybe you want me to go into K-Space and waste tons of time for minimal reward. You already killed solo griefing in highsec which was basically the only fun thing I found to do in K-space besides collecting corpses.
I like the majority of the changes proposed for the new release, but I feel that the MBSD and the frigate holes are just geared towards the huge already established wormhole entities. Really what small corp is going to field a frigate fleet into a hostile wormhole? I'll probably be called out for not looking at this from all angles or even whining/entitlement ect. but the change isn't going to be good for small corps like my own. The only plus side I can think of would be if I dedicated myself to camping my statics all day long as it would be easier to catch the occasional trespasser but that's just as boring as mining imho.
The ideas for deployables that can collapse wormholes I like, would give players like me that often find themselves playing during their corporations off times an option for rolling holes that doesn't involve an hour of smashing at it with a BS or quite carelessly warping around solo with an orca. I think the align time alone for these large ships is risk enough, so what if they can just jump right back through, not like they're going to insta-warp away once they hit the other side.
I have no experience with W-space capital warfare so I can't comment on that. No, just no.
Amen brother! I am in the same boat!! its already a hideous task and very damn risky no need to make it a hell of a lot more dangerous! I cant stomach the second static in my home cause I can afford to run another scout client in the background with volume turned way up! but risking more of my ships Orcas and battleships just for the sake of change HECK NO!! I accept all other changes but this one the only way to make it work is by having a big corp with a lot of escort! CCP I LOVE YOUR GAME and pretty much didn't say a word about all the changes that were made over the past years! but when u come in and RUIN my way of playing and enjoying the game just for the sake of change...THEN HECK NO I am gonna oppose and speak out! YOU ARE KILLING SMALL CORPS/GROUPS and pretty much KICKING THEM OUT OF WSpace that they made home and adapted too for a long time now! 100 % agreeafter almost 10 years in EVE I feel sick to rethink every few months the direction of how to make this game still fun me. It si just annoying how less CCP really cares
Variety is the spice of life Dont do one thing, do all the things
Is it bad if your friend says "that was a Metaphor" and you say "Meta 4? Get Tech II or faction" ?I love the sound of silent explosions in Space.-á |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
142
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 19:06:00 -
[693] - Quote
How many pages and no response from Fozzie other than his "yeah we're going through with this" at the beginning of the thread? |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 19:18:00 -
[694] - Quote
Maxx S wrote:Quote:
This would provide MORE content. Love the screaming goat part!
If no one is home on the other side, no change. If a pvp gang is online and paying any kind of attention, they now have something and someone to shoot at, since they know someone put the thing up. MORE content. We can set up to defend the module. MORE content. The folks on the other side can choose to 1) do a fast scout in something pretty much uncatchable, (inty) 2) Choose to pour a combat fleet through, and smash us like bugs. MORE content. 3) Choose to allow the hole to collapse, creating the opportunity for another one to pop up. MORE content.
" This idea would help to maximize the ability of the existing WH dwellers to create content while helping to curb the abuses of rage-rolling and encourage more players to try out the C1's and C2's."
MOAR CONTENT!
Who needs more content? Why should ALL be prone on PvP, some just DON't want to. And beside being a member of a HS NPC corp the WH space is (in the moment) the only left area in here. This will be gone, and for what good? to (again!) enjoy more PvP's... are they the only CCP takes care of???
Actually I think that the above would provide more "consensual" pvp, and opportunity for "safety" (safety in the wormhole, lol ) for those who need/want it. As I understand the other fellow's post, basically you would be hanging out a sign on the other side of the wormhole saying " HI!, we are on and active, either come get some, or let us collapse the hole"
Let us say you would rather they did not come on through in force. So when your cloaky eyes on the situation, see overwhelming numbers, you do not engage. Most pvp'ers pretty much never engage without a garanteed win. Yes I know that is not always true, but often enough to make the statement.
I do not want WH space to be "safe" I would, however, like to at least even the odds so both sides have a chance.
Pretty much all of these proposed changes are heavily in favour of the attacker, when taken cumulatively. Anything that favours one side is not balanced. If I didn't want to take the chance of being blown out of the sky, I would sit in Jita on a station trading alt, and never undock, not live in a wormhole. But at least give us a fighting chance. Unless these cumulative changes really are designed to cater to the wants of your largest playerbase at the expense of one of the smaller ones. Non collapsable frig/dessie/HIC holes from Nul to wormholes that do not appear as a K162 until someone ( or the entire frigswarm) jumps through. Scattering hole rolling ships out of jump back range. Gee, I wonder who would favour that? Because it certainly isn't the folks who currently occupy wormhole space.
|
Ned Black
Driders
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 19:26:00 -
[695] - Quote
Christopher Mabata wrote:You can seperate this change into 2 schools of thought from the opposition.
1. " Now i dont have as much warning when someone is coming to my Wormhole so theres more Risk for the same amount of ISK"
and
2. " Only big WH groups will remain because now rolling holes will be too tedious"
My thoughts on this are simple. Wormhole corps and denizens make ISK hand over Fist especially in the higher end categories these changes will bring about more PVP yes, no doubting that. But whether its actual fights or simply warping on top of someone and violence'ing their space ship till it dies doesnt matter, either way its PVP and content. So wormhole corps simply have to abide by the fact things will be more difficult now, and thats a good thing, recent changes have made low and null, even high sec a bit more difficult so why shouldn't Wormholes be a bit harder?
Stop crying about it and do something productive with it, nano battleships are still viable for hole rolling your going to land close enough that your back to the hole in no time. Same goes for HICTORS running the WDFG with plates on. Sure rolling the hole with a dread is tedious now, but you could always bump the dread to the hole with a 100mn cruiser, i bet thats faster than warping it off and back too!
People dont like change when it adds risk without increasing rewards, these people want more ISK to be "Convinced to stay" well heres the cold hard truth, if your not willing to put in the effort to make your living you dont deserve it, wh space will be no better or worse with you there if you have these attitudes.
No, people dont like changes that turns something that normally takes 2-3 minutes to complete into something that suddenly takes 8-10 minutes to complete.
To someone like you who have never chain rolled a hole for hours on end to find either a good PvE or PvP hole this means nothing, to someone who have been there the difference is staggering.
Just imaging the outcry if this change was ever ported to cyno mechanics.
Today you can pop a cyno outside a station, jump a JF/Carrier and instantly dock up... Safe as a babe in swaddling... with these changes those ships could end up 20km from station... while that surely would make things interresting it would still make nullsec logistics a nightmare not to mention how interresting all those super fights would be with supers landing 100km from each other.
Why not make that happen... oh, who was risk adverse did you say?
|
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1394
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 19:31:00 -
[696] - Quote
Great changes, thank you. The Tears Must Flow |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1394
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 19:34:00 -
[697] - Quote
So many carebear tears. I love this thread. The Tears Must Flow |
Sheeana Harb
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 20:16:00 -
[698] - Quote
I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we. |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 20:30:00 -
[699] - Quote
Sheeana Harb wrote:I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we.
Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing.
|
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
121
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 20:50:00 -
[700] - Quote
Ruffio Sepico wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we. Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing. Or how about every two hours or so the gates switch where they send you? Maybe you go to jita, maybe you go to amamake... roll the dice! |
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 20:54:00 -
[701] - Quote
Ermagerrd there come the oligofrenic nullseccers
learn 2 post
it's the wh subforum here
not TMC |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 20:57:00 -
[702] - Quote
Witchway wrote:Ruffio Sepico wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we. Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing. Or how about every two hours or so the gates switch where they send you? Maybe you go to jita, maybe you go to amamake... roll the dice!
Yeah wspace and kspace are the same thing let's probe stargates and make a localectomy
pÇïinsert Bert's trip here pÇè |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 21:01:00 -
[703] - Quote
Rei Moon wrote:Ermagerrd there come the oligofrenic nullseccers
learn 2 post
it's the wh subforum here
not TMC
Awesomesauce! Not only did I have to look that word up, which is a very rare occurrence for me, But it was incredibly appropriate!
plus 1, and an attaboy! (or attagirl ) |
Alundil
Isogen 5
636
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 21:32:00 -
[704] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:It's because it's the same old stagnant horseshit With all due respect Sith, dinging wspace as "stagnant horseshit" from a 00 alliance in the CFC is a bit silly and very pot meet kettle. ...ahem...
I'm right behind you |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 21:51:00 -
[705] - Quote
And having uncollapsable 16 hour frig/dessie/HIC holes from Null to J space has absolutely nothing to do with blue donut stagnation.
Oh wait............... |
Switchblack
Pyrrhic-Victory
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 21:52:00 -
[706] - Quote
This change being developed WTIHOUT asking Wh dwellers BEFORE hand was LOW ccp.
Where is the increase in reward for the risk increase?? c1-c3 sites are crap. Ore sites will be useless without wh control.
I Think If you remove Local from nullsec I would feel less angry about this change. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
968
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 22:52:00 -
[707] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote:Rei Moon wrote:Ermagerrd there come the oligofrenic nullseccers
learn 2 post
it's the wh subforum here
not TMC Awesomesauce! Not only did I have to look that word up, which is a very rare occurrence for me, But it was incredibly appropriate! plus 1, and an attaboy! (or attagirl )
Never knew that one, damn sure to remember it though, please forgive me if I steal it and fly it about a bit, I can definitely think of a few threads........ There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Edward Harris
Lazerhawks
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.08 23:36:00 -
[708] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:
And another thing. How is a capital 20k from the hole just annoying? My corp has a name for carriers that far from a hole, it's "target of opportunity" So how is that not an added risk?
You fail at both comprehension and imagination.
As for your 90% leaving and 10% staying. I'll bet you right here, right now that the reverse will be true.
Speaking of failing at comprehension and imagination - please figure out WHEN you will actually see a carrier 20km off the hole. People will not roll if targets are in system. If noone is in system they will, so what happens? Rolling takes ages. No more risk, just more time, which equals less content. This does not by any means give you more kills. |
Glathull
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
539
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 00:01:00 -
[709] - Quote
The enormous amount of tears in this thread tells me that this is one of the best ideas ever.
CCP, make it happen. Turrents |
FleetAdmiralHarper
Capital Abuse
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 00:51:00 -
[710] - Quote
guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. |
|
Switchblack
Pyrrhic-Victory
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 01:40:00 -
[711] - Quote
Glathull wrote:The enormous amount of tears in this thread tells me that this is one of the best ideas ever.
CCP, make it happen.
YES Let's make it an Ocean of tears CCP and remove LOCAL in NULL!
LET THE TEARS REALLY FLOW!!! |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 02:12:00 -
[712] - Quote
I'll create a thread, it's the perfect solution for null. Remove local. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2065
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 05:21:00 -
[713] - Quote
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into..
Go ahead, could use a drop in PLEX prices for a bit until you come crawling back. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Shpongleye
Hard Knocks Inc.
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 05:59:00 -
[714] - Quote
Reverse the distances instead making small ships land further and larger ships closer if you have to change it at all. Being able to roll holes fast are one of the things about w-space, dont take it away. |
Kireitsugu Secheh
Les chips electriques
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 07:43:00 -
[715] - Quote
Shpongleye wrote:Reverse the distances instead making small ships land further and larger ships closer if you have to change it at all. Being able to roll holes fast are one of the things about w-space, dont take it away.
That's exactly what CCP is trying to do. |
Sheeana Harb
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 10:08:00 -
[716] - Quote
Ruffio Sepico wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we. Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing.
I don't see how that's relevant to my comparison with stargates. Although let me get my Freighter and jump through a gate.
What I wanted to say is that similar mechanic is already in place with stargates. Granted it's always 12km, thus slower ships take longer to jump back, but they also usually have bigger tank. The proposed change takes this exactly mechanic (which everyone has managed to deal with) and adds randomness spin of the wormhole space.
Now people will have to be double considerate when jumping through a wormhole with a capital sized ship since it will pose higher risk. And I like that.
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 10:46:00 -
[717] - Quote
^ so what you're saying, basically, is that, caps jumping wormholes is a bad thing? |
Laurici
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 10:47:00 -
[718] - Quote
Sheeana Harb wrote:Ruffio Sepico wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we. Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing. I don't see how that's relevant to my comparison with stargates. Although let me get my Freighter and jump through a gate . What I wanted to say is that similar mechanic is already in place with stargates. Granted it's always 12km, thus slower ships take longer to jump back, but they also usually have bigger tank. The proposed change takes this exactly mechanic (which everyone has managed to deal with) and adds randomness spin of the wormhole space. Now people will have to be double considerate when jumping through a wormhole with a capital sized ship since it will pose higher risk. And I like that.
You're missing the point, a capital ship in k-space can escape from any position in space to a cyno, i.e. you can siege/triage, coast and cyno out. In wh's you'd have to coast, burn 15km, then jump. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
139
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 11:22:00 -
[719] - Quote
Sheeana Harb wrote:Ruffio Sepico wrote:Sheeana Harb wrote:I support this change and am looking forward to it being implemented. Afterall, stargates have similar mechanic and we got used to it, didn't we. Then all we need is for capital ships to start use gates and not cynos right? Or at least bounce 40k off a cyno, and we be on equal footing. I don't see how that's relevant to my comparison with stargates. Although let me get my Freighter and jump through a gate . What I wanted to say is that similar mechanic is already in place with stargates. Granted it's always 12km, thus slower ships take longer to jump back, but they also usually have bigger tank. The proposed change takes this exactly mechanic (which everyone has managed to deal with) and adds randomness spin of the wormhole space. Now people will have to be double considerate when jumping through a wormhole with a capital sized ship since it will pose higher risk. And I like that. SO never a cap fight again at a wormhole, that is clearly whay you want. If there are targets on the other side no one will be able to use a cap to gain advantage or even the playing field. This change will kill cap fights on a wormhole. But then again maybe cyno's should removed and then see you try it at gates. |
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
384
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 11:23:00 -
[720] - Quote
http://interstellarprivateer.wordpress.com/2014/08/07/wormholes-not-gates/
This puts my reservations much more eloquently than I ever could.
Kill the idea of ships getting flung kilometers off the hole depending on their mass. |
|
Tragot Gomndor
Rise of Cerberus Cerberus Unleashed
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 11:34:00 -
[721] - Quote
I dont want to discuss, i just say this:
That idea is bad. WH jumpspawning isnt broken, no need to be fixed.
Thanks 0.0 = GOONS = SAAAMMMMEEE!!!!1111222 |
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 11:57:00 -
[722] - Quote
You need to invert the figures which now is - the smaller the mass of the ship so he went on to appear on WH Example Frigate / destroyer - 25-30 km T3 / cruiser size - 15-20km Battleship - 7.8 km orc 6-7km Capital - 2.4 km
This will give more pvp - any ship cruiser size have always sink to the hole Will be of interest to fight for holes in the high sec, etc.
The basic format - in WH - T3 armor Now it will be possible to conceive of a more rapid and agile formats
what do you suggest now - it's stupid You do not play this game and do not even know what is in pvp in WH |
Kattara
Merchants Trade Consortium
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 12:27:00 -
[723] - Quote
Don't think this new change will create any content, just reduce it. If anything, make the smaller ships land further away. |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1396
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 12:37:00 -
[724] - Quote
Quote:We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
CCP Fozzie.
Keep strong Don't let the tears remove you from the path of light.
Excellent changes so far. The Tears Must Flow |
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
79
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 12:54:00 -
[725] - Quote
Vaju Enki wrote:Quote:We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
CCP Fozzie. Keep strong Don't let the tears remove you from the path of light. Excellent changes so far.
say low sec pirat. can still residents of null, low and high classes will leave this thread to discuss the people who live in the WH? |
Shpongleye
Hard Knocks Inc.
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 12:59:00 -
[726] - Quote
MaxDEL wrote:You need to invert the figures which now is - the smaller the mass of the ship so he went on to appear on WH Example Frigate / destroyer - 25-30 km T3 / cruiser size - 15-20km Battleship - 7.8 km orc 6-7km Capital - 2.4 km
This will give more pvp - any ship cruiser size have always sink to the hole Will be of interest to fight for holes in the high sec, etc. it will give any fight is tied to the hole dynamics. Now it looks - all pressed to the hole and stand in each other's shooting
The basic format - in WH - T3 armor Now it will be possible to conceive of a more rapid and agile formats
what do you suggest now - it's stupid You do not play this game and do not even know what is in pvp in WH
what you want to do will only affect classes 5-6. If you think that this will give you more pvp depths mistaken. F**** carrybears just will not close the hole bu orca and capital - will use only battleship. For people who throw capital for PVP - no matter where is the capital - 15 km or 0 - it will still fall into siege / triage. Now you just want to devour the lives of those who engage in PVP holes c5-c6.
I advise you to get an idea of GÇïGÇïwhat you are destroying the fragile peace established players - fly a real pvp fleets of all primetime. And not to ruin perfectly working system with his stupid ideas
What he said! |
Carlos Agathon
Grumpy Bastards No Response
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 13:52:00 -
[727] - Quote
On behalf of many people in my alliance and myself, this change doesn't really bring anything good. Wormhole subforum has been rioting in disbelief and I think it is safe to say that many of us (the smaller entities more often than the big ones) feel like you're treading on us. You pride yourself in being a company that listens to the players, so I urge you to listen - especially now - that the whole wormhole cummunity (minus the occasional troll) is screaming 'No! We do not want this!' Ball is in your park CCP. Many arguments were listed against your proposal. It would also be interesting to know if this threadnought has had any impact or if you will still go along with the planned changes. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
371
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 13:53:00 -
[728] - Quote
Yeah, I'm still trying to think of a way that this makes the game more interesting.
If you're intent is to make wh's unable to button up- why don't you just make it so they don't have to be scanned, and are opened when they spawn... then you'll just need a scout for every static and we can call it a day? |
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
80
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 13:57:00 -
[729] - Quote
And most importantly - return the Statistics API! |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 14:07:00 -
[730] - Quote
MaxDEL wrote:And most importantly - return the Statistics API!
I was starting to like your posts here, then you come with this XP |
|
Karli Summers
Twilight Souls Surely You're Joking
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 14:13:00 -
[731] - Quote
If CCP really want more caps to die, instead of this change why not fix the way caps get bubbled when warping to a wormhole? Instead of them going through the hic/sabre bubble when they hit the warp button, why not when they actually enter warp they miss it, or even only getting to the hole at zero when it is at max warp speed? I would much prefer this than mass jump distance. We could have killed caps on multiple occasions if this was a thing and equally i could have lost my own dread a few times.
I'd be interested what people would think of what I said compared to this horrific change. |
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
80
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 14:20:00 -
[732] - Quote
if CCP wanted in WH died a lot of capitals, they would not shut off API.
Rei Moon wrote:MaxDEL wrote:And most importantly - return the Statistics API! I was starting to like your posts here, then you come with this XP
You just do not like meat of CarryBears ))) |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 15:17:00 -
[733] - Quote
MaxDEL wrote:if CCP wanted in WH died a lot of capitals, they would not shut off API. Rei Moon wrote:MaxDEL wrote:And most importantly - return the Statistics API! I was starting to like your posts here, then you come with this XP You just do not like meat of CarryBears ))) Because watching API logs and setting login traps is soooooooo manly. :beefcake: |
dexter xio
TURN LEFT
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 17:28:00 -
[734] - Quote
More MaxDel and BU hilarity, you guys are terrible. Dexter xio - That cool guy |
Launch Probe
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 18:37:00 -
[735] - Quote
This idea is just a bad idea. What it creates, is wh gate camp 1.0. Now just like null, every wh can be this amazingly easy gatecamp where you can simply lock and shoot. Nothing can escape as you pop every thing that jumps through and is unable to scury back to the "gate". Thats not wh space, thats null sec and if you like gate camps go to null sit on a gate and press f1.
Theres plenty of ways to catch and kill wh massers. Changes not needed here. |
Lord Toecutter
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 20:39:00 -
[736] - Quote
NO NO NO NO NO! |
Sheeana Harb
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 22:19:00 -
[737] - Quote
Rei Moon wrote:^ so what you're saying, basically, is that, caps jumping wormholes is a bad thing?
No. Read it again. I'm saying that after the change capitals will be at greater risk after jumping through a wormhole.
Laurici wrote:
You're missing the point, a capital ship in k-space can escape from any position in space to a cyno, i.e. you can siege/triage, coast and cyno out. In wh's you'd have to coast, burn 15km, then jump.
I know that very well. If you have to burn 15km back to wormhole, one would wonder why you actually jumped in the first place if the place was too hot. And if you jumped aware of the danger, well then; deal with loosing a ship.
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
702
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 22:29:00 -
[738] - Quote
Sheeana Harb wrote:Rei Moon wrote:^ so what you're saying, basically, is that, caps jumping wormholes is a bad thing? No. Read it again. I'm saying that after the change capitals will be at greater risk after jumping through a wormhole. Laurici wrote:
You're missing the point, a capital ship in k-space can escape from any position in space to a cyno, i.e. you can siege/triage, coast and cyno out. In wh's you'd have to coast, burn 15km, then jump.
I know that very well. If you have to burn 15km back to wormhole, one would wonder why you actually jumped in the first place if the place was too hot. And if you jumped aware of the danger, well then; deal with loosing a ship.
9 times out of 10 its going to do nothing but cause a bit more of a drag and slow down finding content, that 1 time in 10 people will mostly just not bother jumping and probably log instead in a good many cases, so basically it brings nothing to wormhole space.
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Legion40k
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
82
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 22:36:00 -
[739] - Quote
So erm, I'm supposed to tell corpies that:
- rolling is now going to take longer (which is dull. PLS GIVE MORE DULL) - if we need to ditch a chain full of groups we can't handle, it ain't happening so we might as well all log off or risk getting our rolling ships ganked (why would we ever risk that?)
I thought the 'content' part of w-space was finding something to do via rolling. Nerf content much? I don't care how much coding went into this feature, it's wasted effort so scrap it.
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Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
125
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 23:43:00 -
[740] - Quote
Legion40k wrote:So erm, I'm supposed to tell corpies that: - rolling is now going to take longer (which is dull. PLS GIVE MORE DULL) - if we need to ditch a chain full of groups we can't handle, it ain't happening so we might as well all log off or risk getting our rolling ships ganked (why would we ever risk that?) I thought the 'content' part of w-space was finding something to do via rolling. Nerf content much? I don't care how much coding went into this feature, it's wasted effort so scrap it.
on the plus side BOT single handedly supplies most of the funds for HKs SRP with their carrier loss program so I don't see much changes for you guys...
bud-dum-tis....
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Legion40k
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
82
|
Posted - 2014.08.09 23:50:00 -
[741] - Quote
Witchway wrote:on the plus side BOT single handedly supplies most of the funds for HKs SRP with their carrier loss program so I don't see much changes for you guys... bud-dum-tis....
so true xD |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2065
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 00:59:00 -
[742] - Quote
This thread is a perfect example of why CCP should never create a completely safe area for noobs, they'll want it forever. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Dread Nanana
Action Super Dupper Test Corp
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 01:48:00 -
[743] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take, whether it be site-runners to kill (which you *have* to rage-roll for, incidentally) or other large groups. The proposed change slows down chain-rolling, slowing down the speed at which content can be found. This also has the side effect of making farming safer, because the probability being rolled into whilst running sites comes down to how many holes can be opened whilst your caps are not in their POS. Less holes=less chance of dying to everyone else. 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible for small groups. They also have to find content, and rolling the chain is often the only way to reliably find content of interest - whether that be PvP or PvE or anything else. The proposed changes stop you from being able to do this without fighting the larger groups... which you can't do because numbers are important in every case. Small groups can no longer rage-roll consistently, especially given that most larger groups will seed scouts into their chain. 3) Committing capitals to wormholes outside of home systems requires winning the fight or losing the cap... which in turn means that it won't be committed by anyone that hasn't already got the forces on-grid to win it. The proposed change ensures that capitals shoved into another wormhole can't get back into home system. Whereas we currently see Triage used to balance out fights against bigger entities, smaller entities can't afford to lose the triage carrier every time, so they'll just stop bringing them. Less fights is bad for everyone. 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone. 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content. The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible. I originally made most of these points on a reddit post here: http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2cro9k/where_are_the_devblogs/cjihkl9. Some inital discussion over it can also be found. EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s. EDIT 2: In the interest of clarifying my suggested change, I propose that distance landed from the hole should be inversely proportional to mass (higher mass=close) and directly proportional to maximum speed (higher maximum speed = further away).
1. Takes a minute to warp off a bit and back to the hole. Unless you jump into a tarp, you are safe. 2. see #1 3. yes, jumping through a WH should not be risk-free experience just because you sit in a dread and want to deny someone else a fight. 4. You must be kidding. With 5-min siege timer, it is almost safe to siege a POS with dreads for 1 cycle and jump out, provided you have some scouts and no one knows your plans. If you are trying to guess that jumping into some empty 0.0 system, or random low sec will get supers dropped on you, you are crazy. Unless you want to roll a hole in Amamake or VFK or someplace like that, you are quite safe.
As evidence, if what you said was remotely true, L3gs would not have lost his titan.
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40580154/
Why didn't someone save him??.. oh right, it takes longer than 1-2 min to actually form any sort of a fleet. Unless your argument is "goons/PL/N3 sit 24/7 online on their multi-boxed SC+archon swarms ready to jump on the poor WHers". Please.
I specifically replied because of this fail, fail, fail point.
5. see #1
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Thea Nalelmir
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 03:31:00 -
[744] - Quote
Samsara Nolte wrote:Thea Nalelmir wrote:What is this particular change supposed to do again?
Uhmm, by metrics sure rolling WHs is "easy" the pros have it down to an art form, but that is after a lot of practice. Don't believe me? Have someone do it without any experience and see what happens. Rage-rolling only really happens with local superiority, without that it becomes really dangerous. If you want more engagement in WHs you need more people in WHs. More people and rage-rolling becomes a lot harder, there is always the chance to get dropped on and your rolling can get stomped on. The real problem is that you have to find people doing it. The extra 30 seconds maybe a minute that this will add is pointless. All you have to do is have another 'toon web you to about 180 Km away, and another stationed there to web ya back, it that easy. This entire code turns into a waste of time, leaving very little input.
Yeah like it is so easy to do that - I lost count on how many times my alliance had an cloaked Interdictor parked next to a wh waiting for the other site to come online or bring something to our side ... Before this proposed change (no i-¦m not gonna accept this is happening I-¦ havent given up the hope yet) we had in most case hope that they don-¦t wait long enough for their timers to reset ... when this goes live all we have to is wait till they try to close it ... and when they try your above stated trick they will be in a world of hurt - because this will exactly be the thing we will be waiting for - the moment he warps away in whatevcer kind of ship the bubble will be up ... forcing him to crawl back to the hole and if his friends aren-¦t abel to bring in superior numbers through the already damaged hole, which is quite a possibility since we are a rather small alliance - he will lose not only his ship but his capsule as well. And to be honest i also lost count on how many occasion we discovered that we had a cloaked interdictor sitting within our hole for hours before we came online. So please for the love of god, could you and everybody else who mentioned it please stop to bring this supposed "counter" up and up again, because it clearly isn-¦t one to the new mechanics. This change, like i tried to explain at lenght here https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4879997#post4879997 before in the now closed thread does nothing else than tipping the scales in favour of the big wh corps and the null and low sec cartels - then closing a hole leading into such space, when there is just one single person in local capable of opening a cyno will be a painstaking endeavour - and they, contrary to common belief exist, null sec systems where people are actually playing the game. (They are rare but, once upon a time you-¦ll find one) I once again appeal to CCP that this change is the first step in handing over w-space to the big ones. This will like many have stated wage the engangments in short term timeframes but long term there will be a wasteland of activity in w-space, then to be honest with you i-¦have my reasonable doubt that my alliance is gonna survive this change ... well we most likely will try to adapt, but you don-¦t find guys ypu get along with and can trust overnight - exspecially the trust part is an utmost necessity given the pos rights - and i sincerly doubt our actuall member base will be to happy about the need to grow at least 3-4 times bigger just to not lose ships every time we try to close a null or other big hole. And to furhter this if i woulk have wanted to be part of the big ones i would be living in null ... Well what i would like to add is that ccp is raising the risk for everybody living in w-space a great deal but where is the increase in reward - i always though risk equalls reward - which implies by raising the stakes at which you have to play the riches schould be raised as well. Man life would be easy if i could just make hundreds of Millions by tending to moon mining pos, protected by a huge alliance ... but we living in wh have to fight the hardest rats, while doing that exposing our ships to potential enemys lying already in wait or rolling into us, and are given the hardest earned isk there is - we don-¦t get bounty directly paid to our wallets we have to loot and salvage the wrecks to get items, which we have to store in our pos sitting in w-space, potentially being at risk to be destroyed ... wait for days to come ... where we find an exit to be able to bring the loot outside for it to be sold on the market ... having on the way to the market cross several w-space systems permanently being at risk of losing the hard earned loot ... which is gonna leave you with nothing ... what actually is gonna happen a lot more often given these changes .... sarcasm on"but all in all sounds quite reasonable, everybody atm not living in w-space is gonna want to after this changes" saracasm out i just don-¦t see it - sorry.
My Apologies for not making my point clear, I believe that we are on the same side. That "counter" I described was meant to be a Best Case Scenario. I fully agree that this change needs to go away!
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Dread Nanana
Action Super Dupper Test Corp
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 03:34:00 -
[745] - Quote
This is an excellent change. And the reason is perfectly clear. It disallows risk-free defensive hole rolling when some enemy fleet is visible 2 WH away. No ifs-and-buts about it. Every comment here is about fight avoidance, even the ones that attempt to to talk about "rage rolling to find a fight" are really just about whining that someone came into their WH and they have to sit in their POS all day.
Everytime I see a WH that probably leads somewhere, suddenly a few dreads appear and 5s seconds later the signature is gone along with the dreads. Yeah, they were looking for a fight and I have 0.0 space in Stain to sell too.
To be very frank, this entire wihinenaught very much reminds me of the 0.0 AFK cloaker whine thread. And it's still going on, after years and years. Here is one of the later incarnation,
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=281588
Remind you of something too? Oh yes, this thread!
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
704
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 03:51:00 -
[746] - Quote
Dread Nanana wrote:This is an excellent change. And the reason is perfectly clear. It disallows risk-free defensive hole rolling when some enemy fleet is visible 2 WH away. No ifs-and-buts about it. Every comment here is about fight avoidance, even the ones that attempt to to talk about "rage rolling to find a fight" are really just about whining that someone came into their WH and they have to sit in their POS all day. Everytime I see a WH that probably leads somewhere, suddenly a few dreads appear and 5s seconds later the signature is gone along with the dreads. Yeah, they were looking for a fight and I have 0.0 space in Stain to sell too. To be very frank, this entire wihinenaught very much reminds me of the 0.0 AFK cloaker whine thread. And it's still going on, after years and years. Here is one of the later incarnation, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=281588Remind you of something too? Oh yes, this thread!
Even if you had a point instead of being one of the more obvious attempts to troll, doesn't change that in reality people will mostly use capitals well scouted the only change being its more of a drag or those 9 times out of 10 that your not in any real danger and that odd time things look risky either swap to bs or similar or just log of and wait it out, making the whole thing a futile exercise. |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 06:09:00 -
[747] - Quote
Legion40k wrote:Witchway wrote:on the plus side BOT single handedly supplies most of the funds for HKs SRP with their carrier loss program so I don't see much changes for you guys... bud-dum-tis.... so true xD
HOORAY! |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
141
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 06:43:00 -
[748] - Quote
Dread Nanana wrote:1. Takes a minute to warp off a bit and back to the hole. Unless you jump into a tarp, you are safe. 2. see #1 3. yes, jumping through a WH should not be risk-free experience just because you sit in a dread and want to deny someone else a fight. 4. You must be kidding. With 5-min siege timer, it is almost safe to siege a POS with dreads for 1 cycle and jump out, provided you have some scouts and no one knows your plans. If you are trying to guess that jumping into some empty 0.0 system, or random low sec will get supers dropped on you, you are crazy. Unless you want to roll a hole in Amamake or VFK or someplace like that, you are quite safe. As evidence, if what you said was remotely true, L3gs would not have lost his titan. https://zkillboard.com/kill/40580154/Why didn't someone save him??.. oh right, it takes longer than 1-2 min to actually form any sort of a fleet. Unless your argument is "goons/PL/N3 sit 24/7 online on their multi-boxed SC+archon swarms ready to jump on the poor WHers". Please. I specifically replied because of this fail, fail, fail point. 5. see #1 You are quite the blue donut troll. You don't even have agruments to counter that post. 1) it won't take just a minute and you know it. How about add a 5 minute spool up to capitals to jump to a cyno? That would improve the risk to jump capitals and will be as much fun a this change. 2)you didn't even try to counter that one. 3)you clearly have no idea of the current risk 4)when engaging blue donuters on a hole in blue donut space you will be absolutly certain that they will come prepared and will drop a super onto your caps. They usualy won't even warp to the hole. And we don't have 200 supers standing by to counter that, jumping more caps in would only get us killed even more and cut of our escape route. But then again i don't expect you to know wormhole mechanics. 5)you didn't even try to counter that one.
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Sith1s Spectre
1145
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 06:45:00 -
[749] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Dread Nanana wrote:1. Takes a minute to warp off a bit and back to the hole. Unless you jump into a tarp, you are safe. 2. see #1 3. yes, jumping through a WH should not be risk-free experience just because you sit in a dread and want to deny someone else a fight. 4. You must be kidding. With 5-min siege timer, it is almost safe to siege a POS with dreads for 1 cycle and jump out, provided you have some scouts and no one knows your plans. If you are trying to guess that jumping into some empty 0.0 system, or random low sec will get supers dropped on you, you are crazy. Unless you want to roll a hole in Amamake or VFK or someplace like that, you are quite safe. As evidence, if what you said was remotely true, L3gs would not have lost his titan. https://zkillboard.com/kill/40580154/Why didn't someone save him??.. oh right, it takes longer than 1-2 min to actually form any sort of a fleet. Unless your argument is "goons/PL/N3 sit 24/7 online on their multi-boxed SC+archon swarms ready to jump on the poor WHers". Please. I specifically replied because of this fail, fail, fail point. 5. see #1 You are quite the blue donut troll. You don't even have agruments to counter that post. 1) it won't take just a minute and you know it. How about add a 5 minute spool up to capitals to jump to a cyno? That would improve the risk to jump capitals and will be as much fun a this change. 2)you didn't even try to counter that one. 3)you clearly have no idea of the current risk 4)when engaging blue donuters on a hole in blue donut space you will be absolutly certain that they will come prepared and will drop a super onto your caps. They usualy won't even warp to the hole. And we don't have 200 supers standing by to counter that, jumping more caps in would only get us killed even more and cut of our escape route. But then again i don't expect you to know wormhole mechanics. 5)you didn't even try to counter that one.
I find it ironic someone in c6 space talking about blue donuts when you all have non invasion pacts AU tz best tz
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nutty70
twisted nuts Nuclear Confusion
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 10:19:00 -
[750] - Quote
Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
Well as i see it this proposal will make corps move out of wormholes maby iam wrong but wormhole space is allready kinda deserted seems like less and less players live in wormholes (i have been living in wormholes from the start of wormholes) and now u almost newer see a mining fleet or players do sleepers anymore .... u see a pos and maby some players doing PI
I for one, will have serious problems living in the c5 iam in now.. we dont have a big support fleet and have to close wormholes to null and other connecting wormholes before we can do anything and we can only close them if its safe to do so .... no one is gonna risk a carrier or dread getting 20k off a wh trying to close a wh and ontop of that the thing with the missing k162 i cant even close whs before other finde them if they start in other systems .... this will mean we cant do anything and no isk made we have to close down and move out
Tbh. i think the idea about making it more risky living in wormholes by making more it complicated to control the local space, is kinda backwards .... instead you ought to make it more easy and more profitable to make more players want to live and work in wormhole space and that way get more action / fights / risk
ps. if there is any doubt i realy hate this change .... both the distance and the k162 thing
regards nutty
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Switchblack
Pyrrhic-Victory
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 12:50:00 -
[751] - Quote
Dread Nanana wrote:This is an excellent change. And the reason is perfectly clear. It disallows risk-free defensive hole rolling when some enemy fleet is visible 2 WH away. No ifs-and-buts about it. Every comment here is about fight avoidance, even the ones that attempt to to talk about "rage rolling to find a fight" are really just about whining that someone came into their WH and they have to sit in their POS all day. Everytime I see a WH that probably leads somewhere, suddenly a few dreads appear and 5s seconds later the signature is gone along with the dreads. Yeah, they were looking for a fight and I have 0.0 space in Stain to sell too. To be very frank, this entire wihinenaught very much reminds me of the 0.0 AFK cloaker whine thread. And it's still going on, after years and years. Here is one of the later incarnation, https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=281588Remind you of something too? Oh yes, this thread!
This is Stupid and you Should be ashamed. NO WH person has ever complained about AFK cloak. You want to Solve Fight Avoidence? REMOVE local from NUll sec! But wait...We have pages and Pages of Tears about Local in Null sec, Why? Because you love your instant intel and Null sec is just LAZY. You want Content generation? REmove local from NULL! Allow the Little guy to Use null resources without Big brother knowing and BAM! instant Content.
But Alas you want your safety net. Just like WH people want thier safety net. This change Instantly removes WH safty net. All this will do is Make c-5, c-6 wh empty of any small or medium sized corps. 20 jumps with BS to close a wh or Risking a Billions on dreads Will never happen for the small groups. There is NO increase in ISK to offset the Risk increase. |
Traiori
Cause For Concern Easily Excited
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 14:03:00 -
[752] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:I find it ironic someone in disavowed talking about blue donuts when all the big c6 groups have non invasion pacts.
To be fair, invading any C5/C6 corp is a PITA. I think the no-invade pacts are mostly to stop everyone in WH space from unsubbing out of boredom.
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Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 15:45:00 -
[753] - Quote
Greetings, ladies and gentlemen.
I donGÇÖt understand why no one has stated the real goal of all the changes yet, so let me do it. CCP sees that the gameGÇÖs economy is facing mudflation (those who are doubt just look at the PLEX prices curve) and tries to control it. We, the WH dwellers, all know that so-called GÇ£blue lootsGÇ¥ are sold directly to NPC buy orders, injecting ridiculous amounts of ISK into economy. IGÇÖm not going to suggest any tolerable reasons for applying a numerous direct nerfs to the GÇ£blue lootersGÇ¥ instead of introducing a better design for the whole process. Because the obvious reason can be stated like this: GÇ£There arenGÇÖt many people really living in there, so why would we invest dev time in a redesign while a straight nerf will get the job doneGÇ¥. ThatGÇÖs it, quick and dirty. In other words, Fozzie&Co just donGÇÖt think we are worth their while.
What I hate the most, is the bs they spill on our ears, like:
GÇó Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most havenGÇÖt changed in many years
Yes, Nerfbatman, and I bet my bollocks that many players can point at things that require more urgent attention from devs. I don't feel excited rolling my static even now.
GÇó Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to GÇÿtameGÇÖ and control wormhole mechanics.
FozzieGǪ Be a man, donGÇÖt be a fozzing pimp. DonGÇÖt call a straightforward nerf GÇ£improvementsGÇ¥, GÇ£excitementGÇ¥ and s... like that. If you want us all to bring you bucks, go ahead and nerf all NPC-provided sources of ISK equally. When you were introducing those GÇ£Extremely Stupid StructuresGÇ¥, you did really care about some delicate and creative feedback to achieve a design, that, while still appears unnatural, at least allows people to make up for additional efforts they invest and risk they accept. Leaving the announced change GÇ£as isGÇ¥, you just indirectly admit that you donGÇÖt give a fozz about W-community. Yes, I am a person that most of you would call a GÇ£carebearGÇ¥. Moreover, IGÇÖm a nerd and I say it proudly. Sorry, but when I came to this game, I got under impression that itGÇÖs economy is supposed to be balanced for both GÇ£nerdsGÇ¥ and GÇ£buyersGÇ¥/GÇ¥reallifersGÇ¥, where GÇ£nerdsGÇ¥ have an option to buy game time with the game currency while those who like to GÇ£exchangeGÇ¥ their real money for ISK, have a great option to do so in a natural manner. In my situation, grinding ISK to PLEX my accs and paying sub fees with RL money are roughly equal. For you, who are going to e-peen with their RL bank accounts, I would like to notice that in my country, a teacherGÇÖs average salary is less than I invest in computer games. But before you go trolling me, ask yourself one question: GÇ£Who buys all those PLEXes ppl like you bring to hubs because you donGÇÖt like to grind?GÇ¥ The answer is pretty obvious GÇô nerds like me do. In fact, I have 18 active accounts with 19 training queues running on them, and I was going to reactivate 2 more. Now, instead of it, I consider reducing my GÇ£bandGÇ¥ to 13 at most, if not less, and my hommies who were enjoying W-space with me, are going the same way GÇô Bazaar, stock some PLEXes for 1-2 toons they are going to hold GÇ£just in caseGÇ¥, and taking a getaway, probably looking for a better entertainment. Adapt you say? We donGÇÖt feel like adapting to a clearly stupid change. We feel like you are trying to **** us and the GÇ£adaptGÇ¥ phrases are just insulting, itGÇÖs like you ask someone being raped to shut up and try to enjoy the process. Go to low-sec? Boring. Go to nulls? We neither feel like sucking one of those uber-mega-leet coalitionGÇÖs D, nor taming numerous null slaves to attempt to build our own. If we want some GÇ£guerilla-style PvPGÇ¥ you, devs, were advertising while introducing all those mobile structures, we go join Spectre Fleet, Bombers Bar or any other public NPSI community with our numerous alts and go looking for a pure fun w/o any liabilities to some huge organizations whoGÇÖs members think that they can dictate their will to anyone just because they have started playing before us. If you want us to go to nulls, then make GÇÿem viable for tiny yet dedicated groups. Make it really worth settling there. You donGÇÖt like us controlling our environments? Okay, why you are perfectly well with nullsex doing the same thing? A human being differs from an animal by the very ability to make a choice and influence your environment, on more advanced stages of evolution, to form your own even. Those who claim the lack of GÇ£randomnessGÇ¥ in the WH life saying that we can roll the hole until we get any system we want GÇô it shows that you have never tried to really get into a concrete one. You roll your static(s) until you get something that suits your plans better than the current one, but it takes enough time already. If, say, you want to haul some stuff out, and you roll until you get a way to hi-sec, yes you can get it in a while, but you canGÇÖt rely on it being 1j from Jita, you can get 50 jumps instead and you canGÇÖt rely on getting something better if you continue rolling, you canGÇÖt even expect that rolling will take less time and risk than actually making those 50 jumps. You canGÇÖt rely on it remain until you get your hauler back to the exit system and so on. If itGÇÖs not random enough for you, then I give up, because I donGÇÖt argue with animals. Only animals accept their environments GÇ£as isGÇ¥, with just some minor (in terms of effectiveness) efforts to adjust it. Human beings shall not. Apparently, some animals can be considered even better in terms of building their own environment than you suggest us to be after the sGǪ comes live (sorry, I just canGÇÖt call it a patch or an addon). The day you forget about it, you just canGÇÖt be counted as an intelligent human being, regardless of your ability to communicate. Well, at least now we see what CCP really thinks about the GÇ£WGÇ¥-community. Thanks for your attention. |
Neckbeard Nolyfe
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:05:00 -
[754] - Quote
Ok so correct me if Iam wrong, but CCP Games is a company right and as far as I know EVE players are their customers. So when 90% of your customers say that a change you are trying to implement is a bad, and you still don't listen and are trying to go forward with it what does that say about you? What happened to the saying: -¿The customer is always right?-¿ Go ahead with this change and you prove my words right.
Listen to the players, as keeping them happy gives you salary at the end of the month.
|
Ned Black
Driders
76
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:29:00 -
[755] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:This thread is a perfect example of why CCP should never create a completely safe area for noobs, they'll want it forever.
Yea I agree.
Remove local from nullsec NOW!
Implement these changes but do them on cynos. |
Kaede Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:29:00 -
[756] - Quote
Katerin Archer wrote: Greetings, ladies and gentlemen.
I donGÇÖt understand why no one has stated the real goal of all the changes yet...
Yup, that would help us discussing in the right direction and get something constructive out of the forum.
Katerin Archer wrote:... so let me do it. CCP sees that the gameGÇÖs economy is facing mudflation (those who are doubt just look at the PLEX prices curve) and tries to control it. Wow, I thought the null sec moons were the big money makers in eve. I'm not trying to start a troll war there I'm surprised to learn that C5/C6 people have that much an impact on the game economy. Fixing economy without crashing it of destroying a lot of people stuff while keeping everyone happily playing could be tricky. Good luck with that CCP (and give your solution to the UN if it works, just saying...).
Katerin Archer wrote: We, the WH dwellers, all know that so-called GÇ£blue lootsGÇ¥ are sold directly to NPC buy orders, injecting ridiculous amounts of ISK into economy.
Didn't know about that NPC selling thing. Nothing should be sold to NPC to a point it becomes a problem for the rest of the game. It could be changed simply by modifying loot tables (less blue loot, more nanorribons) or by making blue loot of real use in the rest of the game. But i believe creating content out of null sec is taboo, or so some people may think... (yup that one sentence was trolling indeed, feel free to use that to ignore all my previous statements) |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:29:00 -
[757] - Quote
OK, so some people living in the safest place in EVE, nullsec, are complaining that rolling a wormhole is not risky enough. OK, OK, I don't think that's true but for the sake of the argument let's say they are right. In this case, is nerfing our ability to use capital offensively the only way to increase risk while rolling w-holes? NO, of course not. Just from the top of my head I could suggest polarization at the first use of the wormhole (except maybe for cov-ops frigs and cov-ops T3s so you don't make mapping a chain a pain). 3-4 minutes polarization should be enough for a fleet to bump off and kill any capital while also increasing risk when jumping from K-space to W-space or the other way around. I don't know where or from whom this mechanics change originated but it's a bad change and it will have unwanted effects on the meta, please reconsider. P.S. Remove local in null so we can have some unwanted fun with the carebears of the safest place in EVE . |
Kuya Third
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:32:00 -
[758] - Quote
Traiori wrote: 1) Rage rolling becomes much more annoying for large groups. This limits their ability to find content that they can take... 2) Rage rolling becomes essentially impossible...
How about also providing content and not just take selected content? Why are you relying on that mechanic so much?
Traori wrote: 4) Using our capitals in nullsec (and arguably losec) means losing them. We're not stupid. The proposed change would strand our capitals 15-20km away from the hole. The fight would become a race against time: will they be able to form up capitals/supercapitals to kill our triage archon before we get it back into the hole? In most cases, the answer will be no. Power projection means that we can no longer commit capitals. It's bad enough at present, without increasing the scope of the problem. Once again, less fights is bad for everyone.
Well, if you don't want your capitals in k-space, don't jump it there. So far all your points are risk aware. On the other hand it sounds like you are in the position to demand content, aka "take content" which you will recieve with the other changes being made to wh space. (uncloseable holes, C4 highway)
Traiori wrote: 5) Sub-capital wormholes also suffer from the problem because orcas land far away too. The major difference between rolling C4 wormholes and C5 wormholes is that C4 wormholes use Orcas. If those orcas are guaranteed to be in danger, they're also guaranteed to die. We'll take orca kills any time of the day. So will other groups. This means that C4 groups also need to be fielding support fleets for their orca if they don't fancy losing them daily. Bad for small groups, which means they'll leave, which means we lose more groups and hence, lose content.
Not true. We never used a defenseless 600m ship to close our static because it's
Traiori wrote: The error here is the belief that all groups can afford to field support groups. We can't. We aren't 10000 man coalitions, because wormholes can't support that kind of lifestyle. There is a maximum limit to how many people can fit into a wormhole, and unless we're now expecting all pilots to be on all of the time, that means that this change will make smaller groups increasingly unfeasible.
The error here is the belief that there are only C5/C6 alliances who need to protect their insane isk/hour. Sry .. but if WH space is about to opening up for more content it should do so in both ends and not exclude the the rich. I'm sure you can replace a carrier far easier than a C3 group their t3 or a C4's their Marauder(if they use em).
Traiori wrote: EDIT: A better solution would be to invert the numbers: have distance landed be proportional to a function of mass and speed, making it so that lighter and faster ships landing further away from the hole. This would allow us to use kiting HACs as well as brawling T3s.
I'd suggest to deny any capital mass through any wormhole. Instead a limited cyno or even better a mobile jump portal ;) allows you to bring capitals out of/into your wormhole. This will give you content without wasting 1 minute of abusing a game mechanic and solves any logistics problems.
|
Kaede Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:40:00 -
[759] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:P.S. Remove local in null so we can have some unwanted fun with the carebears of the safest place in EVE . Well if local makes nullsec too safe, just make people spend isk to keep it.
I think there is a topic about new mobile structures... :) |
Legion40k
Boa Innovations Brothers of Tangra
82
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:40:00 -
[760] - Quote
Kuya Third wrote:
I'd suggest to deny any capital mass through any wormhole. Instead a limited cyno or even better a mobile jump portal ;) allows you to bring capitals out of/into your wormhole. This will give you content without wasting 1 minute of abusing a game mechanic and solves any logistics problems.
D'oh my god it's a 'cynos in w-space' guy *facepalm* |
|
Gwydion Voleur
Anarchic Exploration
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:52:00 -
[761] - Quote
The mass based spawn distance idea is a very bad idea. It reduces risk and will adversely affect solo/small gang activity in WH's. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
39
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:53:00 -
[762] - Quote
Remove local from nullsec then you can make whatever maso you want to Jspace. |
Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:58:00 -
[763] - Quote
Kaede Hita wrote: Wow, I thought the null sec moons were the big money makers in eve.
There's a difference between "making money" in general and "injecting money". If you mine a moon and sell the mats, you make your money by having someone to give you some in exchange for your stuff. You don't increase the overall amount of ISK in game, you just fill your personal wallet.
If you buy a shiny module from LP shop, you make money roughly the same way, but, in fact, you decrease the overall amount of ISK in game, because almost any LP shiny has a fixed ISK value along with LP cost, say, for buying a 5% hw, you pay ~79M ISK and 79K LPs and then sell it to a player for 150M ISK (hopefully =). So, you gain 71M ISK for your LP, but you also dump 79M ISK out of the game.
If you sell your "blues" to an NPC buy order, it just "injects" new ISK in your wallet, increasing the overall amount of ISK in game. The same thing happens when a null grinder gets his bounty payouts. The ISK is just generated, not redistributed between players. But, for all those nullsexors, Fozzie found an opportunity to put some creative effort and bake a solution to make them partially dump the ISK they generate, by having them either use LP shops or stick with the fact that they have their payments decreased.
It still seems quite ugly and unnatural, but, at least it allows a player to make up for additional effort put in it and risk accepted. When it comes to W-space, I feel like they just don't give a fozz about it, a flat out nerf is fine because it's quick, dirty and they don't care about lesser community.
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 16:59:00 -
[764] - Quote
Yo Fozzie, I think my opinion on this change sort of boils down to the notion that you can't really, at the end of the day, *force* people to PvP and you can't *force* people to take risks disproportionate to the reward received from taking the risk.
If CCP makes the risks too great, people who aren't die-hard wormholers who simply enjoy the lifestyle will move out of wormholes and go run highsec incursions all day long for their isk.
This change sort of reflects a basic misunderstanding of where PvP comes from. PvP comes from calculation of risk vs. reward or chance of winning vs. chance of loss. If you make hugely expensive capital ships land 30-40+ km off a wormhole, out of rep range of other caps, out of refitting range of carriers etc., then I got news for you -- nobody's going to jump caps through wormholes anymore. Its a done deal. Caps will be home-turf defense only. And nobody is gonna jump caps to fight defensive caps on someone else's home turf on the hole.
The other thing is, rolling holes is just part of the wormhole culture. I'm not really seeing why its so crucial to make rolling holes harder or more dangerous. Its already plenty dangerous for the majority of players. I don't see the point of making changes that affect everyone so that the elite groups have a harder game. Those sorts of decisions make the game harder for them but impossible for us smaller-time folk. Sometimes rolling the hole can literally save your wormhole existence. Its one of the few "nuclear" options available to smaller corps that can't take a fight from a bigger entity. It can stop an eviction. Its what keeps a lot of us in w-space because it helps the risk/reward equation balance out.
This change needs to be reconsidered. I feel that efforts to make wormholes more dangerous need to be balanced with increased rewards as well. Right now lower class wormholes need some help on the income side of the equation. Non-C5/C6 non-escalation sites just can't compete with highsec incursions / pirate faction missioning / blue donut plexing / etc and you can run these all day long and have the security of local. You won't lose your ship unless you're stupid and afk. So whats the point of running sites in w-space unless you're doing cap escalations? There is none. Go skill for the easier isk in k-space. The income isn't to be found and you'll just lose your ship. And people wonder why they go from system to system in w-space and see nothing but zombie towers and epithals. Lets get to the incentives to live in w-space first before fooling around with stuff that already works fine. |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
142
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 17:44:00 -
[765] - Quote
O , an other blue donut troll. You clearly never scanned out a w-space chain and seen the emptyness. Why do you want less content for w-space, less content for blue donut space? You clearlt never even tried to close a w-hole and don't even know what the danger is. And cyno's in w-space, you surely must be joking. CCP should remove local in nullsec, do the mass based spawning thingy to cyno's and remove all bounty's . Make em tags instead that they need to carry to high sec to sell to NPC's like with blue loot.
|
Alabugin
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exit Strategy..
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 18:09:00 -
[766] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:O , an other blue donut troll. You clearly never scanned out a w-space chain and seen the emptyness. Why do you want less content for w-space, less content for blue donut space? You clearlt never even tried to close a w-hole and don't even know what the danger is. And cyno's in w-space, you surely must be joking. CCP should remove local in nullsec, do the mass based spawning thingy to cyno's and remove all bounty's . Make em tags instead that they need to carry to high sec to sell to NPC's like with blue loot.
The real answer lies in removing incursions to bolster the population of null/WH space. Nullsec is just bots now, and WH population is...meh...hard to find fights. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2067
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 18:36:00 -
[767] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Yo Fozzie, I think my opinion on this change sort of boils down to the notion that you can't really, at the end of the day, *force* people to PvP and you can't *force* people to take risks disproportionate to the reward received from taking the risk.
That's quite all right, all the bears can abandon your isk fountains for people that are willing to fight for them.
You're quite spoiled and don't understand the concept of risk-rewards very well. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
249
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 18:42:00 -
[768] - Quote
CCP Phantom wrote:Please keep your feedback constructive and in accordance with the forum rules. While you can of course just disagree with the proposed changes, it is much more helpful if you list the reasons and explain why you disagree. The post above by Traiori is a good example of constructive feedback. Thank you!
If you indeed do this then please remove local from null sec. k thx bye. |
Rowland Eld
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 18:48:00 -
[769] - Quote
Terrible idea that needs to get squashed! There was nothing wrong with how this was before, and ccp hasn't said WHY they wanted this change, so why make it? This will deter people from using caps and dreads more when we want more use for them in WH space. Stop fixing what's not broken please. |
Egsise
Rolled Out
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 19:02:00 -
[770] - Quote
I read the first 20 pages, then TL;DR
What is the reason for this mass based spawn distance idea.
Finding content seems to be a major concern and that is why us who live in wormholes roll them and scout the chains. Is wspace so empty that content needs to be ragerolled, if it is, why. Why are you trying to create content by making rolling more dangerous.
How about giving us a dating module, anchor it, fuel it and online it so it draws more K162 holes in to that system? |
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 19:03:00 -
[771] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Yo Fozzie, I think my opinion on this change sort of boils down to the notion that you can't really, at the end of the day, *force* people to PvP and you can't *force* people to take risks disproportionate to the reward received from taking the risk.
That's quite all right, all the bears can abandon your isk fountains for people that are willing to fight for them. You're quite spoiled and don't understand the concept of risk-rewards very well.
I understand risk-reward just fine thanks, and just because i'm interested in w-space incomes doesn't mean I'm a bear. We all have to make our isk to buy our PvP ships and our towers and the fuel and all the rest. You may now return to your regularly scheduled forum trolling. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2067
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 19:16:00 -
[772] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Yo Fozzie, I think my opinion on this change sort of boils down to the notion that you can't really, at the end of the day, *force* people to PvP and you can't *force* people to take risks disproportionate to the reward received from taking the risk.
That's quite all right, all the bears can abandon your isk fountains for people that are willing to fight for them. You're quite spoiled and don't understand the concept of risk-rewards very well. I understand risk-reward just fine thanks, and just because i'm interested in w-space incomes doesn't mean I'm a bear. We all have to make our isk to buy our PvP ships and our towers and the fuel and all the rest. You may now return to your regularly scheduled forum trolling.
Oh so you're one of those that expects complete safety when farming to buy your PvP ships, and then you use them to go gank others isk farming in much less protected areas. Even worse then a bear. Guess you want complete safety roaming in your pvp ships too? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Kuya Third
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 19:22:00 -
[773] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:O , an other blue donut troll. You clearly never scanned out a w-space chain and seen the emptyness. Why do you want less content for w-space, less content for blue donut space? You clearlt never even tried to close a w-hole and don't even know what the danger is. And cyno's in w-space, you surely must be joking. CCP should remove local in nullsec, do the mass based spawning thingy to cyno's and remove all bounty's . Make em tags instead that they need to carry to high sec to sell to NPC's like with blue loot.
You are clearly not very long into wormholes at all - else you would be rich enough and not whine about that little change you simply can solve the other way. Well, I am ;) |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 19:28:00 -
[774] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Yo Fozzie, I think my opinion on this change sort of boils down to the notion that you can't really, at the end of the day, *force* people to PvP and you can't *force* people to take risks disproportionate to the reward received from taking the risk.
That's quite all right, all the bears can abandon your isk fountains for people that are willing to fight for them. You're quite spoiled and don't understand the concept of risk-rewards very well. I understand risk-reward just fine thanks, and just because i'm interested in w-space incomes doesn't mean I'm a bear. We all have to make our isk to buy our PvP ships and our towers and the fuel and all the rest. You may now return to your regularly scheduled forum trolling. Oh so you're one of those that expects complete safety when farming to buy your PvP ships, and then you use them to go gank others isk farming in much less protected areas. Even worse then a bear. Guess you want complete safety roaming in your pvp ships too?
You need to hone your troll skillz dude. I can buy you the skill book for that. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
493
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 20:02:00 -
[775] - Quote
Traiori wrote:20km or 40km, the time it takes a dread to warp off a hole and back to the hole remains the same. All the issues that we've brought up previously are still problematic, so I'll bring them up again on behalf of the community:
etc. I was away from eve for a week, just cam to say that I agree with ALL the changes you proposed.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. I will be away from 3rd to 10th of August. [ON VACATION] |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 20:56:00 -
[776] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Yo Fozzie, I think my opinion on this change sort of boils down to the notion that you can't really, at the end of the day, *force* people to PvP and you can't *force* people to take risks disproportionate to the reward received from taking the risk.
That's quite all right, all the bears can abandon your isk fountains for people that are willing to fight for them. You're quite spoiled and don't understand the concept of risk-rewards very well. I understand risk-reward just fine thanks, and just because i'm interested in w-space incomes doesn't mean I'm a bear. We all have to make our isk to buy our PvP ships and our towers and the fuel and all the rest. You may now return to your regularly scheduled forum trolling. Oh so you're one of those that expects complete safety when farming to buy your PvP ships, and then you use them to go gank others isk farming in much less protected areas. Even worse then a bear. Guess you want complete safety roaming in your pvp ships too?
I can't tell you how many times I've been reported in wh region intel channels, HK can barely go anywhere without getting reported and then all the bears POS up, I mean sometimes I don't even get into scanning because I was reported 5 jumps away from a target I didn't know existed.
Of course it's also customary and honorable to speak in local and announce your presence so other wh pilots have a chance to save themselves. |
Simsung Padecain
Hard Knocks Inc.
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 21:20:00 -
[777] - Quote
After listening to the down the pipe podcast with CCP Fozzie, it really saddens me that the previous thread about this issue was largely ignored, supposedly it was based on "incorrect numbers".
In my head, it doesnt matter if ships will spawn 10 50 or 100km away from the hole. As long as they are not within jump range, they are as good as dead. Webs, bumps, whatever. You will NOT get your ship back. It may not be such a big deal in PvP situations, but it doesn't solve the problem presented in 700+ posts in this, and 700+ posts in the other thread.
Also it's quite alarming for me that CCP doesn't see it with their players eyes, that this issue was completely looked over while desiging the change.
|
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
142
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 21:48:00 -
[778] - Quote
Simsung Padecain wrote: It may not be such a big deal in PvP situations, but it doesn't solve the problem presented in 700+ posts in this, and 700+ posts in the other thread.
It is a big deal in pvp situations, if this gets added, offensive use of caps will be no more(unless in evictions).
|
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 21:57:00 -
[779] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Simsung Padecain wrote: It may not be such a big deal in PvP situations, but it doesn't solve the problem presented in 700+ posts in this, and 700+ posts in the other thread.
It is a big deal in pvp situations, if this gets added, offensive use of caps will be no more(unless in evictions). speak for yourself heathen. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
267
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 22:41:00 -
[780] - Quote
LOL I cant believe this is still going.... I'll say it again... This change WILL promote PVP, yes we will loose many of the farming alt groups but I expect MORE pvpers to move in as this environment will be fun for us plus we can still earn isk to fund new ships. I still don't get the really problem here..................
I mean Hard Knocks of all groups should LOVE this change as they are one of the biggest wormhole PVP groups in the game.
Here's an example of our thinking we had a connection in our chain to a C5 group just yesterday. We baited a fight. They brought a huge force. But instead of fighting us they rolled their hole? Why the hell? They outnumbered us 2 to 1. They rolled it with an Orca and a number of battleships. The new changes will FORCE them to protect their assets and generate a fight. Which I believe IS CCPs intention. If they dont like the change, I say let these carebears leave wormhole space and do incursions... They would make heaps more isk... And have 'virtually' NO RISK! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
705
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 23:24:00 -
[781] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote: Here's an example of our thinking we had a connection in our chain to a C5 group just yesterday. We baited a fight. They brought a huge force. But instead of fighting us they rolled their hole? Why the hell? They outnumbered us 2 to 1. They rolled it with an Orca and a number of battleships. The new changes will FORCE them to protect their assets and generate a fight. Which I believe IS CCPs intention. If they dont like the change, I say let these carebears leave wormhole space and do incursions... They would make heaps more isk... And have 'virtually' NO RISK!
Question is why didn't they fight you - if they were scared to fight you... well they ain't gonna risk it and just log off instead of rolling or find something else to do - so it won't force them to do ****.
Its also possible for instance they had a fight possibly brewing on another wh and shut the connection to you so as to not be fighting on 2 fronts and so on. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2067
|
Posted - 2014.08.10 23:26:00 -
[782] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:I say let these carebears leave wormhole space and do incursions... They would make heaps more isk... And have 'virtually' NO RISK!
That's not true, you can get ganked doing incursions and have to put some pretty expensive ships on the line. The wormhole bears literally have no other place as safe to go to, well maybe under Martinis skirt, hence all the tears. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Simsung Padecain
Hard Knocks Inc.
43
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 00:12:00 -
[783] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Simsung Padecain wrote: It may not be such a big deal in PvP situations, but it doesn't solve the problem presented in 700+ posts in this, and 700+ posts in the other thread.
It is a big deal in pvp situations, if this gets added, offensive use of caps will be no more(unless in evictions). Yes, that's correct. I worded myself poorly. 100% against this change just to be clear :P |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
129
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 01:29:00 -
[784] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:I mean Hard Knocks of all groups should LOVE this change as they are one of the biggest wormhole PVP groups in the game.
One of the problems you don't seem to understand is that when you are Hard Knocks, a lone HK buzzard on a hole is enough to make people roll their static. In fact we quite often go balls deeps with probes already, we eve did some practice runs the other night when someone tried to roll on us.
Hell, we've stalked and ganked Hydra twice in the last few weeks, and yet they rolled into our home today and immediately logged. We won't see them for the next few days, nothing different for us as far as catching people goes.
the reality is that for us, this will not really do anything for us or against us. if they would have rolled before they will just log, and those who just feel safe will soon realize one of us has just been sitting there for an hour or so and now a bubble is up.
as far as going balls deep goes, we often throw three dreads and call it good. in that case landing at range via dreads for us isn't really that big of a deal since they will still be close enough to engage.
I see this affecting large entities in the following ways.
1. large entities are going to be more hesitant to drop capitals out into a fight taking place on the k-space wh due to cynos and then dead. 2. carriers will become defensive purposes only, carriers are still limited by their rep range and a bad jump in could place them disadvantageously far from their fleet. 3. rage rolling will cease to be a thing. it's a matter of math vs boredom. if it takes 30-120 seconds longer per hole roll that all adds up when comparing it to value for our time. |
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
58
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 01:45:00 -
[785] - Quote
And that hits the nail on the head. Players only have so much time to play. And when you get a fleet together and are rage rolling you are looking for speed in finding site runners to gank (or any sort of targets) the longer it takes to roll a WH the less time there is for PVP hence by simple the simple virtue of time there is less PVP with this change.
As another put, you can't force PVP on someone that does not want to fight (unless you catch them on a site in siege) The most fun PVP I can recall is finding a battle in progress and jumping into it a ways into a chain. You never know what will happen to the chain behind you. Frankly our corp spends most if its time fighting nullbears since it is easier to find targets in null. I think this change will just mess with corp operations and slow down the chance to get into PVP. No more jumping the triage carrier through the hole during a fight as it will now end up someplace random away from everything.
So stop screwing with mechanics and add some content, that might liven things up in WH space.
|
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
129
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 01:49:00 -
[786] - Quote
Mal Nina wrote:add some content, that might liven things up in WH space.
I am personally in large favor of the random sleeper spawns in wh grids. have sleepers attack during fights, attack poses make them like crazy ass raiders rather than site based content. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 02:11:00 -
[787] - Quote
The real issue in lower class holes is that you can roll your statics and effectively seal yourself off from the rest of eve, barring a random K162 opening. Its THIS mechanic that needs to be disposed of. Immediately.
I think this change was partly intended to address this problem, but there's better ways to do it. Leave the spawn distance thing off the hole alone and just make it so that if you roll the statics one of them (if there's more than one) opens on both sides automatically. Or a random hole to anywhere opens on both sides.
I otherwise like all the changes so far but there weren't any buffs to site payouts in lower class holes and that is something that's really needed to balance the dramatically higher risk of losing ships/pods vs. risk free incursions and blue donut plexing/pirate missioning with local.
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
268
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 03:55:00 -
[788] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Andiedeath wrote: Here's an example of our thinking we had a connection in our chain to a C5 group just yesterday. We baited a fight. They brought a huge force. But instead of fighting us they rolled their hole? Why the hell? They outnumbered us 2 to 1. They rolled it with an Orca and a number of battleships. The new changes will FORCE them to protect their assets and generate a fight. Which I believe IS CCPs intention. If they dont like the change, I say let these carebears leave wormhole space and do incursions... They would make heaps more isk... And have 'virtually' NO RISK!
Question is why didn't they fight you - if they were scared to fight you... well they ain't gonna risk it and just log off instead of rolling or find something else to do - so it won't force them to do ****. Its also possible for instance they had a fight possibly brewing on another wh and shut the connection to you so as to not be fighting on 2 fronts and so on.
LOL! Not into 3-ways then? Damn.. you miss out. Good times! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
268
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 04:00:00 -
[789] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Andiedeath wrote:I say let these carebears leave wormhole space and do incursions... They would make heaps more isk... And have 'virtually' NO RISK! That's not true, you can get ganked doing incursions and have to put some pretty expensive ships on the line. The wormhole bears literally have no other place as safe to go to, well maybe under Martinis skirt, hence all the tears.
LOL! I did say 'virtually' no risk. Have you actually run incursions? You can run Vanguards reasonably efficiently at about 80 mil per hour (not including LP!) with a fleet of T1 battleships. Yes that increases to about 110 mil per hour with a pimped vindi/mare/mach fleet... But lol who cares!
EDIT: PS... No smart incursion group gets ganked. Thats what DScan is for... Oh thats right, carebears dont use dscan. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Justin Cody
AQUILA INC Verge of Collapse
250
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 05:21:00 -
[790] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Andiedeath wrote:I say let these carebears leave wormhole space and do incursions... They would make heaps more isk... And have 'virtually' NO RISK! That's not true, you can get ganked doing incursions and have to put some pretty expensive ships on the line. The wormhole bears literally have no other place as safe to go to, well maybe under Martinis skirt, hence all the tears.
the ISK per hour in incursions is unprecedented given the fact that they always exist. There is virtually zero risk in doing them in high sec.
If proper precautions are taken in W-space yes it is quite safe...although a new wormhole can crop up at any time and if you are stuck in siege in your dreadnoughts and carriers...you can quite easily get messed up. I've had the pleasure of seeing this happen so many times. Most people aren't running W-space anoms in officer fit shield tanked Vindicators though. Their dreads and carriers are most likely deadspace fit...sometimes officer if they've been doing it long enough but its nothing like the stupid bling seen in the relatively few ganks in high sec incursions.
If it was all that risky bears wouldn't do it. hence bearing. |
|
Pallader
Maple Leafs Nation Dark Pride Alliance
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 06:29:00 -
[791] - Quote
For years we have asked the normal POS`s. Over the years asked the normal security system, where each recruit would not be a threat to the entire Corporation living in WH.
In the CCP offer a system that will encourage crabs sit still more at POS or to leave on the WH. Who ever said that the king crab fishing should be easy?
If the WH will be too many risks - who is going to live? What the heck to do PvP corporations in the games, where there is none? Where is the logic? Now WH not profitable to many other activities. Problem - new ISK`s through the blue. Well solve this problem!
The problem is that few PvP in a place where there quite a few people? Do these places are interesting for pilots! |
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
88
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:08:00 -
[792] - Quote
For CCP Fozzie and other CCP My alliance and alliance BLOOD UNION already left W-Space due to the fact that after the shutdown API Statistics WH us in our prime-time just got nothing to do. Now you want to make things worse for everyone.
You can continue to enter your ideas for the game of which you know nothing) 200 subscriptions of alliances you have already lost
I'll repeat the link to my post - suddenly you would not see it https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4894164#post4894164 |
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve WormHole Occupation and Resource Exploitation
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:42:00 -
[793] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Sentamon wrote:Andiedeath wrote:I say let these carebears leave wormhole space and do incursions... They would make heaps more isk... And have 'virtually' NO RISK! That's not true, you can get ganked doing incursions and have to put some pretty expensive ships on the line. The wormhole bears literally have no other place as safe to go to, well maybe under Martinis skirt, hence all the tears. LOL! I did say 'virtually' no risk. Have you actually run incursions? You can run Vanguards reasonably efficiently at about 80 mil per hour (not including LP!) with a fleet of T1 battleships. Yes that increases to about 110 mil per hour with a pimped vindi/mare/mach fleet... But lol who cares! EDIT: PS... No smart incursion group gets ganked. Thats what DScan is for... Oh thats right, carebears dont use dscan.
You are WAY off on your income per hour.
ISN can earn 200m an hour flying with bling ships doing HQ's and like 150m doing vanguards.
Last I saw. |
Elyas Crux
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 07:54:00 -
[794] - Quote
Undecided on this change, this will hurt small groups more than large groups and will reduce random interactions between groups. |
John Starski
Imperial Navy Lobsters U N K N O W N
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:37:00 -
[795] - Quote
MaxDEL wrote:
You can continue to enter your ideas for the game of which you know nothing) 200 subscriptions of our alliances you have already lost.
Hm. Seems like CCP bad at financial planning. Lets help CCP count how much they'll lose. I won't speak on behalf of my Alliance but due to lost interest in wh or even in EvE itself I probably won't be using 3-4 accounts after this "wormhole improvements". Let's count how many accounts will be unpaid in September guys! =)
For now: probably (but i doubt it): 200 BU accounts i'm sure about 3-4 my accounts.
Who else? I'll ask in my alliance in a few hours too =) |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
268
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:48:00 -
[796] - Quote
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Sentamon wrote:Andiedeath wrote:I say let these carebears leave wormhole space and do incursions... They would make heaps more isk... And have 'virtually' NO RISK! That's not true, you can get ganked doing incursions and have to put some pretty expensive ships on the line. The wormhole bears literally have no other place as safe to go to, well maybe under Martinis skirt, hence all the tears. LOL! I did say 'virtually' no risk. Have you actually run incursions? You can run Vanguards reasonably efficiently at about 80 mil per hour (not including LP!) with a fleet of T1 battleships. Yes that increases to about 110 mil per hour with a pimped vindi/mare/mach fleet... But lol who cares! EDIT: PS... No smart incursion group gets ganked. Thats what DScan is for... Oh thats right, carebears dont use dscan. You are WAY off on your income per hour. ISN can earn 200m an hour flying with bling ships doing HQ's and like 150m doing vanguards. Last I saw.
Well then that further strengthens my point. Reward vs Risk incursions are far more efficient than C5 wormholes. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Samsara Nolte
Sternenschauer AG W.A.S. Alliance - Weapons Armor or Shield
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 08:50:00 -
[797] - Quote
Witchway wrote:Mal Nina wrote:add some content, that might liven things up in WH space.
I am personally in large favor of the random sleeper spawns in wh grids. have sleepers attack during fights, attack poses make them like crazy ass raiders rather than site based content.
On that note - During talks within my alliance we came up with this idea
1. Sleeper Queens When standing for an C6 you can read "leads into deadly unknown parts of space" well the deadly is created from the resident sin there if they aren-¦t online and you don-¦t accidentially warp inside a sleeper site or the like ... nothing can happen to you i mean where-¦s the deadly part GÇô even in low sec you have rats a the gate ... so we wondered what would happen if you had this in w-space. And we came to the conclusion if there would be sleepers at all times at the wh-¦s it would be quite bugging. So why not have in C5-C6 spawn a sleeper queen every other month ... this queen is something like a capital Slepper (carrier) which at the moment it spawns starts generating more and more sleepers resulting in more Battleships within the combat sites an probably multiplying those ... but would also generate sleeper which would start patrol the wormhole to portect their queen ... and at a certain point when the queen was left alone for an extended period of time the sleeper patrols will form up an even start attacking the towers in w-space which shoul be an really neat content driver ... So you can choose to let the sleeper quenn be for the time being resulting in more isk per site but on the other hand you are at risk at being attacked by sleepers at the wormholes and even your tower ist put at risk ... what could result in some nice fights defending your pos against sleeper and those who witness you doing it ...
from my point of view this seems far more intresting than this proposal and the necessary code for thsi should also be there somewhere ....
Maduin Shi wrote:
The real issue in lower class holes (and I suppose in C5/C6 as well) is that you can roll your statics and effectively seal yourself off from the rest of eve, barring a random K162 opening. Its THIS mechanic that needs to be disposed of to eliminate (nearly) risk-free ratting and denying PvP. Immediately.
I think the spawn distance change was partly intended to address this problem, but there's better ways to do it. Leave the spawn distance thing off the hole alone and just make it so that there's always an open connection from your system to somewhere in eve. If you roll the statics one of them (if there's more than one) opens on both sides automatically. Or a random hole to anywhere opens on both sides. It can be an empty deep low/null/w-space system which is fine as long as there's the opportunity for being found without necessarily someone having to roll holes to find you via K162.
This idea to me seems also far better - why allow a static to be closed. Let it generate a K162 whenever a new static spawns - so you as a w-space resident have to deal with what your choosen hole has to offer at all times. |
Dieter Rams
The Nommo
97
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 09:09:00 -
[798] - Quote
BU tears are salty, must be hard to EVE without godmode API and seeding login traps 24/7.
Grats for killing bears all this time, but really HTFU you're embrassasing yourselves.
|
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 09:20:00 -
[799] - Quote
Witchway wrote:Mal Nina wrote:add some content, that might liven things up in WH space.
I am personally in large favor of the random sleeper spawns in wh grids. have sleepers attack during fights, attack poses make them like crazy ass raiders rather than site based content.
Id add C7 WH, no moons, no effects, randomly spawning to anyplace, unknown mass, no static (or changed one) and containing sleeper motherships with some fancy loot. At least SOMETHING different.
Otherwise, good idea :) |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 09:29:00 -
[800] - Quote
Pallader wrote:For years we have asked the normal POS`s. Over the years asked the normal security system, where each recruit would not be a threat to the entire Corporation living in WH.
True on one side, but if you think about it, these thefts make news and bring players. So despite it being broken, stupid, useless and everything, its not gonna get ever fixed. |
|
Simsung Padecain
Hard Knocks Inc.
45
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 10:13:00 -
[801] - Quote
We live in wh space because we dislike k-space mechanics. Station games, gate aggro, cyno, power projection. All of this is essentialy different in WH space. This is what draws people into WHs and make them somewhat OK with all disadvantages.
I dont want WH space to look anything like k-space. If it does, I will not find myself subbing my accounts anymore.
Vote with your wallets people. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
218
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 10:18:00 -
[802] - Quote
little over two weeks left before the patch and no reply. I think that means the changes are going through.
I've lived in high, low, null and c3 and c5 space. I've made isk from missions, exploration, incursions, cap escalations, gas, mining and plexing. even living in catch, the hottest region in null/the game I am swimming in isk. It is already the safest way of making isk (apart from incursions) with no comparison to risk in c5 cap escalations. any nullbear, especially from the blue doughnut saying differently is 100% trolling.
This change will remove a big part of why large corps are in whs (rage rolling) and smaller corps (manageable risk with decent isk)
But I know what fozzy is thinking. 'they dont really know what they want. I know what they want, they are just too stupid to know what they really want, they will see'
no fozzy, you will see. |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 10:28:00 -
[803] - Quote
In an interview Fozzie said, that the escalation spawns originally were introduced to prevent people using caps. He also stated that there might be a change. Hm this all becomes very interesting... |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
219
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 10:49:00 -
[804] - Quote
umnikar wrote:In an interview Fozzie said, that the escalation spawns originally were introduced to prevent people using caps. He also stated that there might be a change. Hm this all becomes very interesting... if they remove or change cap escalations then that is the same as changing or removing moon goo from null.
yea, that can only end well. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 10:59:00 -
[805] - Quote
Yeah, it would make C5/C6s obsolete. |
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 11:14:00 -
[806] - Quote
Fozzy, Just a reminder, You and CCP provide a service. You and CCP need consumers. You and your jump range Nerf (whatever) is not wanted
The problem is #1 your not listening and hearing what we are saying #2 a Long time ago CCP forgot what its like to play the game because you dont anymore #3 You have seriously broken stuff in this game, fix the piles of issue (its a huge list) and stop screwing over the smaller groups.
In Conclusion, regardless of what we say, how we say it, the good idea fairy has clubbed Mr. Fozzy and he will force this Jump range thing. He doesn't have to deal with the risks nor does he have to deal with the actual game dynamics, besides sitting on the curb poking at us little ants with a stick.
Mr. Fozzy your more then Welcome to hear 1st hand anytime from me "the little guy" Poke me in game and ill be happy to drop a TS Address for you. Im no Alliance super hero I run with a hand full of people that have been together for years. We have FUN, win loose or draw its still a FUN time. Mr. Fozzy, Join me and our group in TS one day Ill be happy to explain some of how us back woods country folk, enjoy to live and flourish in a wormhole, Because we cant do it anywhere else, You guys with your nerfs and changes have made sure of that so as i have said in the past, we the small groups (the people you continue to roll over) would like game content that doesn't require a blob.
NOTE: Just a Reminder, the Mincraft Server for all you WH people will be up and running, when you camped in your hole and cant close it safely with out loosing a capital(s). Also If your house is being burned down and you cant assume wormhole control, and your waiting for your trash to explode. You will get some free villagers or something. we may Also be doing the Arma 3: Dayz instead of Arma2, but we have time before the change ill keep you posted.
|
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 11:27:00 -
[807] - Quote
Aside from the teamspeak invitations, that post above needs a sticky. Pretty much sums it up. |
Aivo Dresden
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
368
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 12:12:00 -
[808] - Quote
I must say, I would be very surprised if Fozzie changed his mind on this. It's not his style. I've got a lot of friends in WHs and from the times I've daytripped myself, this exact difference in jumping to k-space, is just one of the things that gives WHs this unique and cool feel. I'm not just seeing the positive effects this proposed change might have.
I didn't read everything here (40+ pages lol) but I must say I did like the idea of jump in range being reverse affected by mass. Heavier ships are closer to the hole, with the light frigates being tossed out a little further. |
Simsung Padecain
Hard Knocks Inc.
46
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 13:20:00 -
[809] - Quote
Devblog written by Fozzie claims players were wrong assuming that CCP never wanted WH to be habitable.
In the Podcast Fozzie confirmed that rumor, by not denying it while brought up + mentioning that escalations were supposed to be a deterrent.
So which one is it? |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
82
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 14:02:00 -
[810] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Yo Fozzie, I think my opinion on this change sort of boils down to the notion that you can't really, at the end of the day, *force* people to PvP and you can't *force* people to take risks disproportionate to the reward received from taking the risk.
This change sort of reflects a basic misunderstanding of where PvP comes from. PvP comes from calculation of risk vs. reward or chance of winning vs. chance of loss. If you make hugely expensive capital ships land 30-40+ km off a wormhole, out of rep range of other caps, out of refitting range of carriers etc., then I got news for you -- nobody's going to jump caps through wormholes anymore. Its a done deal. Caps will be home-turf defense only. And nobody is gonna jump caps to fight defensive caps on someone else's home turf on the hole. No more cap fights means wormholes become less interesting = more pilots leaving w-space.
And what percentage of players and corps field caps? Just this statement alone equates to only 25% of wormhole space because the rest of wormhole systems cannot run a cap through their wormhole. The numbers are actually smaller because it only applies to those C5/C6 wormholes with statics that connect to other cap capable space. Subtract also whatever percentage of those that are unoccupied and we are dealing with a minority of WH space affected in large by this change. Apparently a vocal minority at that.
Maduin Shi wrote:Same with rage rolling, its just part of wormhole culture. You almost have to do it to find content now because there's too many wormholes and not enough residents. Unless of course you're willing to settle for dicking around with null/low dwellers. But anyhow I'm not seeing the point of trying to do away with it. If you want less rage rolling then the best way to get less of it is to get more wormhole residents.
I am interested to see how the increased spawn and tiny frigate wormholes equate to busier wormhole space. I'm not certain if it will lead to more occupation or more daytripping but either would be an increase in activity.
|
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 14:03:00 -
[811] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:little over two weeks left before the patch and no reply. I think that means the changes are going through.
I've lived in high, low, null and c3 and c5 space. I've made isk from missions, exploration, incursions, cap escalations, gas, mining and plexing. even living in catch, the hottest region in null/the game I am swimming in isk. It is already the safest way of making isk (apart from incursions) with no comparison to risk in c5 cap escalations. any nullbear, especially from the blue doughnut saying differently is 100% trolling.
This change will remove a big part of why large corps are in whs (rage rolling) and smaller corps (manageable risk with decent isk)
But I know what fozzy is thinking. 'they dont really know what they want. I know what they want, they are just too stupid to know what they really want, they will see'
no fozzy, you will see.
I really, reeaaaly think its time to remove local from nullsec. Really. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
221
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 14:30:00 -
[812] - Quote
while that is a pretty awesome idea it would quite literally kill eve, no question.
I think fozzy will settle for killing whs for now. |
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 14:32:00 -
[813] - Quote
Words can barely describe how horrible of a move this is. I know this has been stated many times already before but I figured I would just reiterate it. All this change will do is drive smaller corporations out of wormholes and slow down wormhole interactions in general.
What is puzzling is nobody asked for this change. As stated earlier people are not stupid. (well some are) but overall wh dwellers are not going to jump dreads if the reward is not worth the risk. If this change happens smaller corps are not going to bother as they no longer have the means to effectively protect their dreads. Also nobody is going to run sites with dreads while you have open wormholes all around because the value of what you will gain is simply not worth that risk. You can protect a dread making combat jumps with fewer than 15 ships in the current mechanic usually. I cannot tell you how many mexican stand off's we have had with larger corps on the other side of a crit'ed hole waiting for one or the other to get stuck. That will simply not be possible with this change. The effect is that all but hte largest corps will simply move out of wh's. Those stand offs simply won't happen anymore.
Whats more is that this will only add to the current problem with declining sub'ed accounts. Our corporate leader has already announced he will be leaving the game if this goes through as there will be nothing left in the game he wishes to participate in. I have multiple characters totally dedicated to wormhole activities which will be useless after this change as I will no longer have a purpose for them. Multiple other members in our corporation have voiced their account cancellation should this change go through for the same reason. I know CCP is famous for their quote "what the players say and what the players do are entirely different" But please take note. These are not cancellations as an "up yours" fist shake to CCP. These are "you have destroyed an entire aspect of game play which these accounts were subscribed for" cancellations.
I know my corporation cannot stand up to the might of several of the larger wh corps but we have had scraps back and forth with them. usually lose but occasionally win (or a win for us). I doubt these other wh corps want to see us go. The wh community is an odd one in that blowing up ships is more like a hand shake. Most of our wh allies were made from someone dying. We have banded together though int telling you this change is one that almost NON of us want. |
Arkon Olacar
Imperial Guardians Spaceship Samurai
377
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:12:00 -
[814] - Quote
There are times I wonder if Fozzie has ever played Eve
This is one of them Warping to zero |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:50:00 -
[815] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:stuff about caps. And what percentage of players and corps field caps? Just this statement alone equates to only 25% of wormhole space because the rest of wormhole systems cannot run a cap through their wormhole. The numbers are actually smaller because it only applies to those C5/C6 wormholes with statics that connect to other cap capable space. Subtract also whatever percentage of those that are unoccupied and we are dealing with a minority of WH space affected in large by this change. Apparently a vocal minority at that.
Minority or majority, all have a right to voice their opinion... even the trolls. In any case, be careful how you measure. Capital fights are something many, many players aspire to. If they get screwed up it will have long term knock-on effects for w-space that far exceed a simple numbers game like you're referring to.
Obil Que wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Same with rage rolling, its just part of wormhole culture. You almost have to do it to find content now because there's too many wormholes and not enough residents. Unless of course you're willing to settle for dicking around with null/low dwellers. But anyhow I'm not seeing the point of trying to do away with it. If you want less rage rolling then the best way to get less of it is to get more wormhole residents. I am interested to see how the increased spawn and tiny frigate wormholes equate to busier wormhole space. I'm not certain if it will lead to more occupation or more daytripping but either would be an increase in activity.
More connections might lead to more PvP yeah. It would just be better to have some isk-incentives to move to w-space commensurate with the risk. Might as well call C1's and C2's PI-space. If you like shooting up quad-stabbed epithals, it'll be great I'm sure. But for the rest of us, it would be better to have more ratting groups actually running the lower class sites and getting competitive isk/hr and miners getting the ABC's in ore sites that have to be probed down. But you don't see 'em nowadays much cuz the isk/risk equation doesn't work out. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
985
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:51:00 -
[816] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:while that is a pretty awesome idea it would quite literally kill eve, no question.
I think fozzy will settle for killing whs for now.
Whilst removing local from null would be highly amusing, you are right the effects would be more than significant, if not balanced with major features to balance it in some way, it would be destructive.
However, the feelings that it would be a fair turnaround for the suggestions that get put forward for changes to us, it is very tempting.
Just to salve our feelings, It would be nice for it to happen, unannounced, just for a limited time, during an Icelandic national holiday, and restored 5 minutes before CCP come back after their break, knowing they don't have to deal with it. Radiation storm, Eve gate got frisky, sorry, hope it doesn't happen again.
Null players might appreciate it more afterwards. Mind you there might be a need for a few new monuments to the event.
PS, on your second point, I think Fozzy might reconsider the wisdom of the mass/distance change after the clear feedback, the rest can be balanced. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 16:58:00 -
[817] - Quote
So thats the Second dev blog stating that this change is happening......THEN WHATS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD IF UR JUST GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY
also wtf with the nestor? |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:01:00 -
[818] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:while that is a pretty awesome idea it would quite literally kill eve, no question.
I think fozzy will settle for killing whs for now. Just to salve our feelings, It would be nice for it to happen, unannounced, just for a limited time, during an Icelandic national holiday, and restored 5 minutes before CCP come back after their break, knowing they don't have to deal with it. Radiation storm, Eve gate got frisky, sorry, hope it doesn't happen again. Null players might appreciate it more afterwards. Mind you there might be a need for a few new monuments to the event.
Oh this would be glorious. I love it. Could even be done in observance of an official wormhole 'religious holiday' with supercapital sacrifices to Bob. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
985
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:02:00 -
[819] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:So thats the Second dev blog stating that this change is happening......THEN WHATS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD IF UR JUST GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY
also wtf with the nestor?
I just listened to fozzie talking on down the pipe, He is clear that all options of keeping it, changing it, or removing it are on the table and they are closely watching these forums before they make a final decision. That seems fair and reasonable, no matter how much we dislike this new feature.
As for the Nestor, it is too expensive and still insufficiently defined, hopefully that will change. I still cannot find a role for it other than bait.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
985
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:04:00 -
[820] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:while that is a pretty awesome idea it would quite literally kill eve, no question.
I think fozzy will settle for killing whs for now. Just to salve our feelings, It would be nice for it to happen, unannounced, just for a limited time, during an Icelandic national holiday, and restored 5 minutes before CCP come back after their break, knowing they don't have to deal with it. Radiation storm, Eve gate got frisky, sorry, hope it doesn't happen again. Null players might appreciate it more afterwards. Mind you there might be a need for a few new monuments to the event. Oh this would be glorious. I love it. Could even be done in observance of an official wormhole 'religious holiday' with supercapital sacrifices to Bob. Bob, together with his loving acolytes would be amused. Others, not so much........ There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
pierre arthos
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:08:00 -
[821] - Quote
It's apparent from reading the posts here that many people simply do not understand the significance of these proposed changes, particularly for C6/C5 PVP groups. Let's hope for our sanity (and continued involvement in this game) that CCP Fozzie has better comprehension skills than some of you.
Effect on Rolling Wormholes
Pro's:
- rolling will become more hazardous, potentially more kills of bigger ships such as Carriers, Dreads and Orcas.
Cons:
- rolling will take longer, be more tedious, equalling less connections and hence reduce PVP.
- rolling will be safer if done by larger groups in BS, favours larger entities, diminishing W-space ecosystem.
Effect on PVP at wormhole entrances
Pro's:
- some potential particularly in lower class holes for new tactics other than brawling, utilising the scatter effect.
Con's:
- Capital PVP is now effectively suicidal for the aggressor, with defenders having the odds massively stacked in their favour, especially if jumping into k-space from w-space. You can't easily retreat, and you are unlikely to be able to refit or support other capitals.
- Brawling will be more effective if huge Guardian/T3 blobs are used instead of risky capitals, again favouring larger groups (see the emergent theme, anybody?)
People saying we should all just shut up and adapt, that's fine. Compared to many other groups, we can probably ride out these changes. Will there be anybody left to play with though?
CCP Fozzie, you wanted constructive feedback, there it is, now for an alternative suggestion which removes some of the objections:
1. Make all wormhole jumps spawn just outside jump range, making you have to break jump cloak to return. 2. Instead of the fixed session change timer, make it a mass based jump timer. Capitals have to break cloak and wait a couple of minutes before jumping back. BS a minute, covops scouts as soon as the session timer is up.
You get some additional risk when rolling, but a much bigger chance of getting capitals into refit range or in a position to retreat, thus preserving aggressive capital ship PVP in w-space.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
985
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:18:00 -
[822] - Quote
pierre arthos wrote:It's apparent from reading the posts here that many people simply do not understand the significance of these proposed changes, particularly for C6/C5 PVP groups. Let's hope for our sanity (and continued involvement in this game) that CCP Fozzie has better comprehension skills than some of you. Effect on Rolling WormholesPro's:
- rolling will become more hazardous, potentially more kills of bigger ships such as Carriers, Dreads and Orcas.
Cons:
- rolling will take longer, be more tedious, equalling less connections and hence reduce PVP.
- rolling will be safer if done by larger groups in BS, favours larger entities, diminishing W-space ecosystem.
Effect on PVP at wormhole entrancesPro's:
- some potential particularly in lower class holes for new tactics other than brawling, utilising the scatter effect.
Con's:
- Capital PVP is now effectively suicidal for the aggressor, with defenders having the odds massively stacked in their favour, especially if jumping into k-space from w-space. You can't easily retreat, and you are unlikely to be able to refit or support other capitals.
- Brawling will be more effective if huge Guardian/T3 blobs are used instead of risky capitals, again favouring larger groups (see the emergent theme, anybody?)
People saying we should all just shut up and adapt, that's fine. Compared to many other groups, we can probably ride out these changes. Will there be anybody left to play with though? CCP Fozzie, you wanted constructive feedback, there it is, now for an alternative suggestion which removes some of the objections: 1. Make all wormhole jumps spawn just outside jump range, making you have to break jump cloak to return. 2. Instead of the fixed session change timer, make it a mass based jump timer. Capitals have to break cloak and wait a couple of minutes before jumping back. BS a minute, covops scouts as soon as the session timer is up. You get some additional risk when rolling, but a much bigger chance of getting capitals into refit range or in a position to retreat, thus preserving aggressive capital ship PVP in w-space.
You discuss and present things well,
I am pretty sure just about everyone in all classes of WH, understands just how bad the core concept is. Including those who do not and are celebrating the idea, but they don't live here, and just see a few easy kills for a short while, and as they have no interest in the long term survival of wormhole life, just want to see us burn.
Whilst I applaud your ideas to make things, a little less horrible, we must be careful not to let CCP believe that every bad thing can just be gold plated. Every other change in this release has the core of a good idea, and can be balanced, maybe not as we want initially, but can be good for the long term vibrancy of life.
This however just will never stop stinking until it is taken away and disposed of. Hopefully, CCP now understand the magnitude of this issue and will find a polite way of doing so. And we should have the decency to be thankful, and never speak of it again. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:29:00 -
[823] - Quote
For the record, I do like everything Traiori wrote.
And I think he's right the effect should be sort of reversed, i.e. the faster ships get flung out further, not the heavier ones. Something that would make kiting and sniping ships more viable without nerfing the Proteus directly. Tone down the top speed of covops frigs and astero a bit so they still can get bubbled and decloaked and we're golden.
And I would add that if you can't roll holes anymore ppl will just log off in their POSes instead, and just wait out the natural lifetime which is arguably worse.
|
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:29:00 -
[824] - Quote
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote: I cannot tell you how many mexican stand off's we have had with larger corps on the other side of a crit'ed hole waiting for one or the other to get stuck. That will simply not be possible with this change. The effect is that all but the largest corps will simply move out of wh's. Those stand offs simply won't happen anymore. .
Stand off's out numbered, and having to use tactics, individual pilots skills, not only trained skills, but the player himself has do something besides F1. Amazing isn't it, where else in eve can a hand full of pilots square off with horrifically out numbered opponents and put up a fight to defend their home, or at-least close a wormhole so they can PLAY THE GAME.
You said in the Pod Cast you want reasons Viable Reasons, Here is another one. Pilots that like to use carriers and dreads for something besides Ratting or 400 man slow cat fleets.
As for that tard complaining about closing wormholes too fast, get some skills Bro' because wormhole closures are one the most dangerous things for a small group to do, because if you have nuts (even if they haven't dropped yet) you take your little 5 or 6 man fleet in and follow em through and get your **** on. Its not an easy GANK like what you look for yea it turns in to an actual fight when your in someone else's house.
My killboard sure aint Grand' but here is an example Following Someone though It was 2 orcas and a carrier collapsing a hole, we jumped in and snatched one of them Go hard or go home right?,They collapsed the hole and we lost a guardian durring "Session change" they had additional personnel on line (More then us) in their home hole were we were trapped but being to slow to respond in time we blapped what we could and skated out another hole static, with a trail of pissed off hornets behind us. Mutli box'n a scanner alt while try n to cut fence sure is a chore, but its a whole lot of fun |
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:32:00 -
[825] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: You discuss and present things well,
I am pretty sure just about everyone in all classes of WH, understands just how bad the core concept is. Including those who do not and are celebrating the idea, but they don't live here, and just see a few easy kills for a short while, and as they have no interest in the long term survival of wormhole life, just want to see us burn.
Whilst I applaud your ideas to make things, a little less horrible, we must be careful not to let CCP believe that every bad thing can just be gold plated. Every other change in this release has the core of a good idea, and can be balanced, maybe not as we want initially, but can be good for the long term vibrancy of life.
This however just will never stop stinking until it is taken away and disposed of. Hopefully, CCP now understand the magnitude of this issue and will find a polite way of doing so. And we should have the decency to be thankful, and never speak of it again.
Here here! (raises glass in toast of a good speech) |
FleetAdmiralHarper
Capital Abuse
33
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:40:00 -
[826] - Quote
its funny. they updated the changes and reduced the spawn range slightly.... its still a **** change that needs to be scrapped. things are fine as is. in regard to jumping wormholes.
using an orca for cargo is not a sin, and is already risky as hell, neither is rolling empty holes to find new ones with stuff to attack. thats just risky and tedious part of wh life, YOU'RE NOT IMPROVING ANYTHING YOU'RE MAKING IT 1000X WORSE!
but it gets better, now you wanna remove escalations? XD haha.. i honestly think fozzie has played EvE once. got bullied. and now wants to kill the game from the inside out to punish ccp and all those players who picked on him. *slow clap for the most clever and sneaky SOB of the year* good job cancer (err i mean fozzie) youre getting your wish.
as for the rest of you. all you K-space plebs and nullblets dont know the 1st thing about pvp or working/living in a wh or the dangers/god awful tedious grinding involved. just because you jumped into one and got lost or died once, doesn't make you an expert. your ignorance shows with every fan-boy zealot post you make or even worse idea.
to the wh'ers: ive said it before, ill say it again. they will push this crap out anyway, and then wreck more things soon after. he already wants to apply the obama i mean (fozzie care) to escalations too. UNSUB and pull out of your whs now, while you're ahead.
they actually think if 50% of the community hates something they are doing, that they are doing a good job, i cant figure out what kinda ****** logic that is, but 90-95% of the wh community hates this change.
my corp unsubdued. all 15 of my friends who were gonna join the new corp we made to go into a wh again, unsubed, all 10 aussies who were part of the night crew unsubdued and wont come back. i have personally have 2 weeks left on my membership. i CANT WAIT for it to end. and finally be free of this crappy 2nd job that needs to be paid for.
we will not be coming back, and this is my last post on the eve community forums. im gonna go play a fun 2.5d facebook game with 5x the active player base that eve ever had. (kinda sad aint it) ccp has got to be the worse and most ******** company to ever have blundered its way into making a game. but WE are even bigger idiots for paying them as long as we did.
i finally won at eve online. it feels good =)
*deletes 35b in assets, and biomass's characters* |
Jon Hellguard
X-COM
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:49:00 -
[827] - Quote
So, CCP found it's balls for change again? My congratulations.
Looking forward to see your balls. bring it! |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 17:54:00 -
[828] - Quote
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
*deletes 35b in assets, and biomass's characters*
Can i haz ur stuff?
(dang it too late)
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
987
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:16:00 -
[829] - Quote
Guys, I am only a character, less than two years old and with much to learn. In that time I have seen good changes, and some not so good. Not every change is what we want, and we get slightly surprised when some minor changes, turn out to have better effects than we think.
This particular change is so derided and hated, for all the reasons that all of us see to a greater or lesser extent, but .
It Has not come out yet, and May never see the light of day.
Hold off on your leaving, on your unsubbing and with your reactions. You may or may not find your original fears realised.
And whatever the faults, the old things that still annoy us, those who would see us fold and collapse, is is still a unique game, and if it goes, or if we leave, we will never see the like of it again.
Keep your powder dry, keep your fears and anger on a short leash.
There is time to do whatever you planned later, just do not give up on this game too soon, that WILL be a tragedy, as not only will you lose all of us, we will lose you, and you all bring life and vibrancy to the game..
Good luck to us all. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:49:00 -
[830] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Hold off on your leaving, on your unsubbing and with your reactions. You may or may not find your original fears realised.
And whatever the faults, the old things that still annoy us, those who would see us fold and collapse, is is still a unique game, and if it goes, or if we leave, we will never see the like of it again.
I didn't say I would be leaving the game. And i haven't seen too many of the drunken "i'm quitting everything!!" rants. I have no desire to just rage quit on eve. However what people are saying is that this change in particular will significantly alter the current WH community. it is not a change that will affect all equally. To the large corps it will mean simply changing wh closing doctrine to 20 BS's. To the vast majority of wh corporations though it will effectively end their way of life as they have been playing for years. I will be sticking it out till the end along with all my corp mates all the way up until the change. when you have multiple characters though solely devoted to WH purposes why would you continue to subscribe them if you can no longer use them?
|
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
988
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 18:55:00 -
[831] - Quote
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Hold off on your leaving, on your unsubbing and with your reactions. You may or may not find your original fears realised.
And whatever the faults, the old things that still annoy us, those who would see us fold and collapse, is is still a unique game, and if it goes, or if we leave, we will never see the like of it again.
I didn't say I would be leaving the game. And i haven't seen too many of the drunken "i'm quitting everything!!" rants. I have no desire to just rage quit on eve. However what people are saying is that this change in particular will significantly alter the current WH community. it is not a change that will affect all equally. To the large corps it will mean simply changing wh closing doctrine to 20 BS's. To the vast majority of wh corporations though it will effectively end their way of life as they have been playing for years. I will be sticking it out till the end along with all my corp mates all the way up until the change. when you have multiple characters though solely devoted to WH purposes why would you continue to subscribe them if you can no longer use them? There will be very few wherever they live C1 or C5 in large or small corps who will disagree with you. But every one who leaves, will be sorely missed. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Richard McTrader
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:28:00 -
[832] - Quote
The proposed WH Hyperion changes look very interesting. I am looking forward to what could be the greatest release of my playing time with this set of changes save one: the mass spawning distance.
Please just drop this change.
The WH mass mechanic is not broken, so please stop trying to fix it.
In addition to the many arguments shared above as to why this change is not good and a detriment to pvp, I would like to reinforce the understanding as to how boring this will be. Rather than add excitement of increased risk, the change will eliminate the exciting risk of jumping a capital ship through a wormhole because it is simply not worth the risk.
The change adds tedium to an already time consuming and labor intensive process of rolling the wormhole. Remember, rolling the wormhole not only how we generate content for pvp even pve, but it is also how wormhole residents travel. K-space players always have methods of travel readily available in their home systems in the form of gates, cynos, jump clones and jump bridges. W-space residents have none of these options available in their residences. Rolling the hole is how we often find the connections to K-space in order to travel to market to buy and sell.
Is it a good game change to add time or require more players to simply travel around the universe or does it add boredom and frustration to an otherwise challenging game?
Please do not make this more time consuming by limiting our ability to search for ways to travel.
This change is boring for large wh corps: added tedium. This change is boring for medium-small wh corps: log off because we cannot field the numbers to roll the hole. This change is boring for null sec: you will likely never see a WH capital in K-space again, ever. We won't "run away" we will just never be there. You will never bring a capital into a wormhole (not that you ever do). The hole will still get rolled, but you will only ever see some battleships that you won't have time or interest to form up to fight.
I would not want Hyperion to become known as the release that made the exciting world of wormholes into the boring world of empty tedious space. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
705
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 20:52:00 -
[833] - Quote
Richard McTrader wrote: This change is boring for null sec: you will likely never see a WH capital in K-space again, ever. We won't "run away" we will just never be there. You will never bring a capital into a wormhole (not that you ever do). The hole will still get rolled, but you will only ever see some battleships that you won't have time or interest to form up to fight.
I would not want Hyperion to become known as the release that made the exciting world of wormholes into the boring world of empty tedious space.
Some of the most fun fights I've had is where null entities have dropped 70+ BC fleets on us and we've dropped a 10-15 man t3 fleet with triage support out, with mixed results - certainly hasn't always gone our way - sometimes just the loss of 1 t3 tips the ISK balance their way, largely this change would kill that gameplay off except in highly situational circumstances.
|
Dersen Lowery
Narwhals Ate My Duck. Narwhals Ate My Duck
1191
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:03:00 -
[834] - Quote
Aivo Dresden wrote:I didn't read everything here (40+ pages lol) but I must say I did like the idea of jump in range being reverse affected by mass. Heavier ships are closer to the hole, with the light frigates being tossed out a little further.
The main problem with that is that right now, pretty much your only hope of catching a CovOps or a cloaky, nullified T3 is if they spawn within 2k of a wormhole and they can't immediately cloak. Your suggestion not only makes them nigh uncatchable, but makes it likely that they'll spawn outside of a T1 bubble inflated at zero on the hole.
Don't get me wrong: my scouting alt would love this behavior. I'm not sure that it's good for the game, though. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
ForceAttuned Krogoth
Anoikis Vergence Critically Unstable
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:22:00 -
[835] - Quote
First i like to say i am NOT for this change, but......
This might get more kills right away, It will force smaller corps to move out of W-space as they will lose orca's and other closing ships (looking forward to killing them).
Also larger corps rolling to kill escalation fleets will get hurt, as it will take much more effort and time to roll each hole (nice as i will feel a bit safer not getting rolled into as much).
Even though it sounds nice, I feel in the end this will lower the content in W-space in the long term.
Nice idea but over all it seems it will be more of a pain in the a** than getting more content.
I agree what Traiori from Cause For Concern said on the #5 post.... |
Tytos Khamez
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:32:00 -
[836] - Quote
I'm going to restate what has already been stated in this forum in order to underscore the valid point...
CCP's stated intention in making this change is as follows:
Quote:This change is intended to ensure that all attempts to control the local wormhole environment are open to risk of player disruption. We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
The two most frequent reasons to roll a hole are 1) rage rolling the static to find content, and 2) collapsing a hole that looks dangerous. CCP wants to fix scenario 2, but this change breaks both scenarios equally.
Here are a couple of suggestions that I'm just going to brainstorm without thinking through:
- Make the entrance and exit mechanics different. Make it harder to kill a WH from the exit side.
- Make static wh's behave differently than randomly spawned ones. Allow static ragerolling that way.
On a less relevant note to this discussion, why do ships even cloak after coming out of a WH? How does a ship that doesn't have a cloaking device cloak? Is it a function of the WH? If so, that's just dumb. Seems to me that if you've just been flung through a cosmic rip in space/time, you're probably not going to be exiting it in a stationary state, and you sure as hell won't be cloaked.
Anyway, that's my 2 isk. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
707
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:41:00 -
[837] - Quote
Tytos Khamez wrote: On a less relevant note to this discussion, why do ships even cloak after coming out of a WH? How does a ship that doesn't have a cloaking device cloak? Is it a function of the WH? If so, that's just dumb. Seems to me that if you've just been flung through a cosmic rip in space/time, you're probably not going to be exiting it in a stationary state, and you sure as hell won't be cloaked.
Anyway, that's my 2 isk.
Its more a technical consideration than a gameplay mechanic, though less relevant these days with the way the server works with spread out nodes, unpredictable loads and the range of client hardware and latency without that jump cloak its feasible you could end up loading into the system to find your already podded by the time your fully loaded in and have ship control if someone was waiting on the other side. |
Tytos Khamez
The Desolate Order Brave Collective
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 21:44:00 -
[838] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Tytos Khamez wrote: On a less relevant note to this discussion, why do ships even cloak after coming out of a WH? How does a ship that doesn't have a cloaking device cloak? Is it a function of the WH? If so, that's just dumb. Seems to me that if you've just been flung through a cosmic rip in space/time, you're probably not going to be exiting it in a stationary state, and you sure as hell won't be cloaked.
Anyway, that's my 2 isk.
Its more a technical consideration than a gameplay mechanic, though less relevant these days with the way the server works with spread out nodes, unpredictable loads and the range of client hardware and latency without that jump cloak its feasible you could end up loading into the system to find your already podded by the time your fully loaded in and have ship control if someone was waiting on the other side.
Makes perfect sense... thanks! -1 for immersive gameplay, +1 for not jumping straight into a death scene. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
222
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:24:00 -
[839] - Quote
Alright ladies and gents, get your tinfoil hats ready coz this one is a pretty good one. Pure unadulterated tinfoil hattery and Grrr Goons with a solid amount of conspiracy, you have been warned. (Conspiracy theory stuff is fun, you don't have to believe in it to make a convincing case. Also bored.)
**This assumes a great deal of competency and is the primary reason why I don't necessarily believe any of this. I'm a fan of the saying; 'don't attribute to malice that witch can be attributed to incompetence'.
Now I've heard people say that CCP Fozzie has a hard on for mitani and that the Goons want to take over/ruin eve. I don't normally put much stock in that but lets look at the last batch of Wormhole specific targeted changes and events that have taken place with this in mind.
- Discovery scanner. I'm kinda on the fence regarding if this was planned or not or if it was just a knock on effect but the general consensus was that it did make farming safer. Lets call this one inconclusive.
- Grav site removal. Pretty much killed WH Mining for the most part. NS mining is better anyways, everyone knows that, yey infinate minerals and local!
- Soon after these changes the whole Goons in WH space thing happened and they got kicked out, yey us!
- The API stats removal. This was a pretty big one and with a single simple change the biggest baddest and arguably most dangerous WH corp decided to leave WH space. Kings of log off traps and no slouches with rage rolling it'd be hard to find any C5-6 corp that hasn't lost at least one farming fleet, or system for that matter, to these nutters. I know we did.
- Increased WHs from Null and LS. As a nullie I've been part of at least one attempt at killing a hole rolling fleet (Got foiled by a DC of our inside scout) and we've killed plenty of wormholers just from the WHs spawning in our own and allied systems.
- Effectively un-collapsible frig holes going to, you guessed it, null. A 50 man AF fleet will easily kill a farming fleet and Goons sure do love their Harpy fleets. They will also decimate lower class fleets, both PvP and PvE. Also Wolf Holes.
- Second static in C4s. Now we don't know what they are yet but if a decent amount of them go to Null then this will seal the fate of any C4 farmers that manage to escape the frig holes. Easy as pie to get a big BS fleet in there and then just titan bridge additional BS/Ishtars to the static once hole control has been established to evict farmers. Lets call this one inconclusive till we know what statics there will be. (Fozzie did say there would be a pattern to it)
- The big one, the Mass distance rolling. Any big or small corps still managing to live in WH space after all the above ways for Null (any not just Goons) to kill them up will leave WH space from pure frustration as more and more smaller corps (Plankton I believe were Mitani's words) leave and rage rolling for PvP or borderline safe PvE becomes impossible.
So what's the end result? A barely inhabited and very safe WH space perfect for seeding a couple dozen Goon farming corps and RMTing Mitani a nice big house and shiny new car.
Ok so that last bit is over the top but I did warn you to bring your tinfoil, this one's a doozy |
Sith1s Spectre
1146
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 22:55:00 -
[840] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Alright ladies and gents, get your tinfoil hats ready coz this one is a pretty good one. Pure unadulterated tinfoil hattery and Grrr Goons with a solid amount of conspiracy, you have been warned. (Conspiracy theory stuff is fun, you don't have to believe in it to make a convincing case. Also bored.) **This assumes a great deal of competency and is the primary reason why I don't necessarily believe any of this. I'm a fan of the saying; 'don't attribute to malice that witch can be attributed to incompetence'. Now I've heard people say that CCP Fozzie has a hard on for mitani and that the Goons want to take over/ruin eve. I don't normally put much stock in that but lets look at the last batch of Wormhole specific targeted changes and events that have taken place with this in mind. - Discovery scanner. I'm kinda on the fence regarding if this was planned or not or if it was just a knock on effect but the general consensus was that it did make farming safer. Lets call this one inconclusive. - Grav site removal. Pretty much killed WH Mining for the most part. NS mining is better anyways, everyone knows that, yey infinate minerals and local! - Soon after these changes the whole Goons in WH space thing happened and they got kicked out, yey us! - The API stats removal. This was a pretty big one and with a single simple change the biggest baddest and arguably most dangerous WH corp decided to leave WH space. Kings of log off traps and no slouches with rage rolling it'd be hard to find any C5-6 corp that hasn't lost at least one farming fleet, or system for that matter, to these nutters. I know we did. - Increased WHs from Null and LS. As a nullie I've been part of at least one attempt at killing a hole rolling fleet (Got foiled by a DC of our inside scout) and we've killed plenty of wormholers just from the WHs spawning in our own and allied systems. - Effectively un-collapsible frig holes going to, you guessed it, null. A 50 man AF fleet will easily kill a farming fleet and Goons sure do love their Harpy fleets. They will also decimate lower class fleets, both PvP and PvE. Also Wolf Holes. - Second static in C4s. Now we don't know what they are yet but if a decent amount of them go to Null then this will seal the fate of any C4 farmers that manage to escape the frig holes. Easy as pie to get a big BS fleet in there and then just titan bridge additional BS/Ishtars to the static once hole control has been established to evict farmers. Lets call this one inconclusive till we know what statics there will be. (Fozzie did say there would be a pattern to it) - The big one, the Mass distance rolling. Any big or small corps still managing to live in WH space after all the above ways for Null (any not just Goons) to kill them up will leave WH space from pure frustration as more and more smaller corps (Plankton I believe were Mitani's words) leave and rage rolling for PvP or borderline safe PvE becomes impossible. So what's the end result? A barely inhabited and very safe WH space perfect for seeding a couple dozen Goon farming corps and RMTing Mitani a nice big house and shiny new car. Ok so that last bit is over the top but I did warn you to bring your tinfoil, this one's a doozy (I worked really hard on this, give me a Dinsdales out of 10 score pls)
Wow...
Who tied your shoe laces this morning? AU tz best tz
|
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Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
222
|
Posted - 2014.08.11 23:02:00 -
[841] - Quote
I see irony is lost on certain parts of nullsec, what a surprise
Also reading comprehension but at this point thats a given |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1554
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 00:42:00 -
[842] - Quote
I like the idea of mass changing your double-tap timer. Do this one instead. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
Kel hound
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:23:00 -
[843] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.
This is starting to feel like the hacking loot-scatter mechanic all over again. Is CCP going full steam ahead with this, despite 90% of w-space trying to tell them why it is a bad idea?
At this point this thread consists of basically 2 things: Schadenfreude, and wormholers against this change. |
Aedh Phelan
Krannon of Sherwood Carthage Empires
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:26:00 -
[844] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: "Normally I wouldnGÇÖt feel that we have to go over our views this explicitly, but IGÇÖve been seeing a distressing number of players misunderstand our position and I wanted to hopefully end the confusion once and for all." http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/?_ga=1.1548721.1488620783.1407808787
The dev blog notice on the launcher dated 8/11 indicates no changes so far to the spawn distance changes.
So 41 pages of feedback mostly outlining the many various ways this change is terrible. And yet it seems we actually do "explicitly" understand your (CCP Fozzie) position. Your position seems to "explicitly" be that you want to do it and 41 pages of mostly "explicitly" thought out reasons of objection are over-reactions by silly little noobs and must have gone unread or dismissed as worthless drivel.
In this case Fozzie, IMHO, your words are like the friendly insincere smile from someone quietly stealing our candy. You assume it is for our own good because clearly you think we don't have a clue. |
Hans Bonderstadt
Codename-47
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 02:38:00 -
[845] - Quote
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
my corp unsubdued. all 15 of my friends who were gonna join the new corp we made to go into a wh again, unsubed, all 10 aussies who were part of the night crew unsubdued and wont come back. i have personally have 2 weeks left on my membership. i CANT WAIT for it to end. and finally be free of this crappy 2nd job that needs to be paid for.
we will not be coming back, and this is my last post on the eve community forums. im gonna go play a fun 2.5d facebook game with 5x the active player base that eve ever had. (kinda sad aint it) ccp has got to be the worse and most ******** company to ever have blundered its way into making a game. but WE are even bigger idiots for paying them as long as we did.
rip in pepperoni we will miss u 4ever Goodnight sweet prince May sweet dreams com 2 u |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
136
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 05:46:00 -
[846] - Quote
As part of one of the smaller groups in wormholespace who now are supposed to die in a fire and depression (according to everyone in this thread) I am a bit amazed about the arguments thrown out here.
I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. And the concept that you can isolate your system and farm in peace solo cap escalations in c5 and c6 space is to my mind at the border to gamebreaking.
I was at first divided on this subject. But right now I lean to heavily support this change. Not because its a good change. But because the status quo is worse.
And I really do hope that this change how everyone live in wormholespace. Because its needed.
You big corps and alliances. Ask yourself this. How many people in your corp/alliance are playing jabber online? Who only turn up for the pinged fights? Is that really good gameplay in your eyes?
For the smaller groups who enjoy pvp. C4 space are seeing a new purpose. Sure c5 has better isk, but you dont need to live there to harvest it. Open your eyes to the options these changes bring. The new dual statics literally come in all flavours. Are risk free farming really the winning point of why you live in wormholespace? Why you play this game?
So yes. I now support this change ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3639
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 06:04:00 -
[847] - Quote
calaretu wrote:I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. if the alternative is your little corp not getting to do anything until the larger corp goes away? yes, I say it is good game mechanics as it allows small corps to continue looking for content when they cant interact with their current chain options. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 07:17:00 -
[848] - Quote
calaretu wrote:As part of one of the smaller groups in wormholespace who now are supposed to die in a fire and depression (according to everyone in this thread) I am a bit amazed about the arguments thrown out here.
I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. And the concept that you can isolate your system and farm in peace solo cap escalations in c5 and c6 space is to my mind at the border to gamebreaking.
I was at first divided on this subject. But right now I lean to heavily support this change. Not because its a good change. But because the status quo is worse.
And I really do hope that this change how everyone live in wormholespace. Because its needed.
You big corps and alliances. Ask yourself this. How many people in your corp/alliance are playing jabber online? Who only turn up for the pinged fights? Is that really good gameplay in your eyes?
For the smaller groups who enjoy pvp. C4 space are seeing a new purpose. Sure c5 has better isk, but you dont need to live there to harvest it. Open your eyes to the options these changes bring. The new dual statics literally come in all flavours. Are risk free farming really the winning point of why you live in wormholespace? Why you play this game?
So yes. I now support this change
Finally another wormholer with some balls. Can't believe the people unsubbing after pleading for changes and them getting butt hurt when they may actually change current dynamics. This is still by far the best online MMO. Well to Fozzie to sticking to his guns. So far... Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
137
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 07:19:00 -
[849] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:calaretu wrote:I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. if the alternative is your little corp not getting to do anything until the larger corp goes away? yes, I say it is good game mechanics as it allows small corps to continue looking for content when they cant interact with their current chain options.
But I could do it risk free. Their fleets wasnt on 0 on wormhole. Thats whats wrong imo. The risk free part. And its only in 5/6-5/6 you have the option of instaclosing. Shoukd small groups be able to live in these systems? I suggest perhaps not. A lot of other systems to live in. And we are making this move ourself as our active numbers had a drop. So yes I dont support the argument that small groups should be able to live in 5/6-5/6 ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 08:23:00 -
[850] - Quote
Kel hound wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime. This is starting to feel like the hacking loot-scatter mechanic all over again. Is CCP going full steam ahead with this, despite 90% of w-space trying to tell them why it is a bad idea? At this point this thread consists of basically 2 things: Schadenfreude, and wormholers against this change.
It would seem the remaining 10 % of supposed WH dwellers, alongside the nullsec bears who know all about WHs, are enough for him to push the change.
Id say that no matter how many pages we write, theyll go ahead because they think its good. Few hundreds subs mean nothing to them so why not screw up the game for us.
|
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Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 08:26:00 -
[851] - Quote
calaretu wrote:Jack Miton wrote:calaretu wrote:I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. if the alternative is your little corp not getting to do anything until the larger corp goes away? yes, I say it is good game mechanics as it allows small corps to continue looking for content when they cant interact with their current chain options. But I could do it risk free. Their fleets wasnt on 0 on wormhole. Thats whats wrong imo. The risk free part. And its only in 5/6-5/6 you have the option of instaclosing. Shoukd small groups be able to live in these systems? I suggest perhaps not. A lot of other systems to live in. And we are making this move ourself as our active numbers had a drop. So yes I dont support the argument that small groups should be able to live in 5/6-5/6
ive closed a WH with enemy T3 fleet trying to catch me. Thats not the point. With the new mechanics, there is no way to close when there is enemy unless you have big support fleet ready to pull you out if needed. Small groups will hav to log off and wait.
If you tell me how does that create content please?... |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
223
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 08:26:00 -
[852] - Quote
calaretu wrote:As part of one of the smaller groups in wormholespace who now are supposed to die in a fire and depression (according to everyone in this thread) I am a bit amazed about the arguments thrown out here.
I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. And the concept that you can isolate your system and farm in peace solo cap escalations in c5 and c6 space is to my mind at the border to gamebreaking.
I was at first divided on this subject. But right now I lean to heavily support this change. Not because its a good change. But because the status quo is worse.
And I really do hope that this change how everyone live in wormholespace. Because its needed.
You big corps and alliances. Ask yourself this. How many people in your corp/alliance are playing jabber online? Who only turn up for the pinged fights? Is that really good gameplay in your eyes?
For the smaller groups who enjoy pvp. C4 space are seeing a new purpose. Sure c5 has better isk, but you dont need to live there to harvest it. Open your eyes to the options these changes bring. The new dual statics literally come in all flavours. Are risk free farming really the winning point of why you live in wormholespace? Why you play this game?
So yes. I now support this change Your ignorance of actual c5-6 mechanics and your jabber comment is telling and reduces your post to irrelevace. thx for playing. |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 08:52:00 -
[853] - Quote
You got hotheaded and are not thinking straight. If you managed to solo close a WH with two hostile fleets around, props to you, but those fleets (better said their FCs) sucked hard or they didn't give a rats ass about you and instead were chasing each other. You know that there are tactics developed to catch rolling caps, right? So you prefer to not have the option to boldly close a hole but instead to POS up and spin, sounds legit! Even if I am to concede that it would be better to increase the risk involved in rolling a C5/C6 hole I still think this proposed way of mass-based spawn (which may put offensive caps 40km apart) isn't the way to do it. A solution that causes a bigger problem that the one that it solves is not a good solution.
I agree with you that isolating system in order to farm should not be possible but that could be easily solved by having the static force spawn (no matter if it was interacted with by players - scanned, warped too etc) on a timer (5 minutes so active players can scan it and have the upper hand if they are on an offensive prowl) and the K162 on the other side 15 (let's say) minutes later (or/and at first jump as proposed). Or at least make the K162 visible and interact able with. I think we should charge CCP money for all these great solutions we are throwing at them .
|
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
473
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 08:59:00 -
[854] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:calaretu wrote:So yes. I now support this change Your ignorance of actual c5-6 mechanics and your jabber comment is telling and reduces your post to irrelevace. thx for playing. And you are supposed to be a massively more relevant because...?
W-Space Realtor |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 09:35:00 -
[855] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:You got hotheaded and are not thinking straight. If you managed to solo close a WH with two hostile fleets around, props to you, but those fleets (better said their FCs) sucked hard or they didn't give a rats ass about you and instead were chasing each other. You know that there are tactics developed to catch rolling caps, right? So you prefer to not have the option to boldly close a hole but instead to POS up and spin, sounds legit! Even if I am to concede that it would be better to increase the risk involved in rolling a C5/C6 hole I still think this proposed way of mass-based spawn (which may put offensive caps 40km apart) isn't the way to do it. A solution that causes a bigger problem that the one that it solves is not a good solution. I agree with you that isolating system in order to farm should not be possible but that could be easily solved by having the static force spawn (no matter if it was interacted with by players - scanned, warped too etc) on a timer (5 minutes so active players can scan it and have the upper hand if they are on an offensive prowl) and the K162 on the other side 15 (let's say) minutes later (or/and at first jump as proposed). Or at least make the K162 visible and interact able with. I think we should charge CCP money for all these great solutions we are throwing at them . EDIT - And absent rage rolling farming will be even safer. Granted one won't be able to schedule it but still safer when it will occur.
and yet the outcome will be ultimately decided regardless of all the feedback and solutions given. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 10:21:00 -
[856] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:You got hotheaded and are not thinking straight. If you managed to solo close a WH with two hostile fleets around, props to you, but those fleets (better said their FCs) sucked hard or they didn't give a rats ass about you and instead were chasing each other.
Or the "fleets" consisted of empty ships sitting in a POS that he saw on dscan. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3641
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 10:39:00 -
[857] - Quote
calaretu wrote:Jack Miton wrote:calaretu wrote:I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. if the alternative is your little corp not getting to do anything until the larger corp goes away? yes, I say it is good game mechanics as it allows small corps to continue looking for content when they cant interact with their current chain options. But I could do it risk free. Their fleets wasnt on 0 on wormhole. Thats whats wrong imo. The risk free part. And its only in 5/6-5/6 you have the option of instaclosing. Shoukd small groups be able to live in these systems? I suggest perhaps not. A lot of other systems to live in. And we are making this move ourself as our active numbers had a drop. So yes I dont support the argument that small groups should be able to live in 5/6-5/6 it is NOT risk free. ive killed MANY people closing WHs before and expect to do it again in the future. It isnt hard and there is VERY real risk involved in combat rolling and anyone claiming otherwise is either lying or incompetent. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Winthorp
2524
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 10:47:00 -
[858] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:calaretu wrote:Jack Miton wrote:calaretu wrote:I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. if the alternative is your little corp not getting to do anything until the larger corp goes away? yes, I say it is good game mechanics as it allows small corps to continue looking for content when they cant interact with their current chain options. But I could do it risk free. Their fleets wasnt on 0 on wormhole. Thats whats wrong imo. The risk free part. And its only in 5/6-5/6 you have the option of instaclosing. Shoukd small groups be able to live in these systems? I suggest perhaps not. A lot of other systems to live in. And we are making this move ourself as our active numbers had a drop. So yes I dont support the argument that small groups should be able to live in 5/6-5/6 it is NOT risk free. ive killed MANY people closing WHs before and expect to do it again in the future. It isnt hard and there is VERY real risk involved in combat rolling and anyone claiming otherwise is either lying or incompetent.
The point is you have killed stupid people that can't log a simple scout on, once they have a scout they are 100% safe and if they know they are not they don't roll it.
But you can always count on stupid Jack.
It actually disappoints me CCP has listened to all the whining here and is changing this to be more carebear friendly. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:00:00 -
[859] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Jack Miton wrote:calaretu wrote:Jack Miton wrote:calaretu wrote:I have solo closed wormholes in the face of two! hostile fleets. I can not fathom how anyone can call that good game mechanics. if the alternative is your little corp not getting to do anything until the larger corp goes away? yes, I say it is good game mechanics as it allows small corps to continue looking for content when they cant interact with their current chain options. But I could do it risk free. Their fleets wasnt on 0 on wormhole. Thats whats wrong imo. The risk free part. And its only in 5/6-5/6 you have the option of instaclosing. Shoukd small groups be able to live in these systems? I suggest perhaps not. A lot of other systems to live in. And we are making this move ourself as our active numbers had a drop. So yes I dont support the argument that small groups should be able to live in 5/6-5/6 it is NOT risk free. ive killed MANY people closing WHs before and expect to do it again in the future. It isnt hard and there is VERY real risk involved in combat rolling and anyone claiming otherwise is either lying or incompetent. The point is you have killed stupid people that can't log a simple scout on, once they have a scout they are 100% safe and if they know they are not they don't roll it. But you can always count on stupid Jack. It actually disappoints me CCP has listened to all the whining here and is changing this to be more carebear friendly.
unlike now you could simply roll even when it wasnt safe. AFter change, nope. STuck, log off. |
Winthorp
2524
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:05:00 -
[860] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:
unlike now you could simply roll even when it wasn't safe. AFter change, nope. STuck, log off.
So log off and cry me a river. You rolling your chain safely and then continuing to carebear away benefits no one.
You logging off cause it wasn't perfectly safe for you to achieve a Wh with no entry points actually benefits the rest of the players that actually only PVE to PVP by increasing the value of MNR's when all you whining carebears can't farm more then you should be. |
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Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:08:00 -
[861] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:
unlike now you could simply roll even when it wasn't safe. AFter change, nope. STuck, log off.
So log off and cry me a river. You rolling your chain safely and then continuing to carebear away benefits no one. You logging off cause it wasn't perfectly safe for you to achieve a Wh with no entry points actually benefits the rest of the players that actually only PVE to PVP by increasing the value of MNR's when all you whining carebears can't farm more then you should be.
lol, so much hate. Well, expected. Your hateful comments that obviously have no respect for anybody are really great. You are such great guy to have around. I wonder how, with such attitude and opinions, you expect to find ppl in WH. Sure, occasional explorers are there and surely you grow big when you shoot a heron on sun, prolly claiming to be pvp god of the week, no doubt.
But then try for once, with a reason, to reply to a simple question : How does affecting peoples ability to create content help the game? Since small groups will have it much tougher now and they are part of the game too, despite your inability and unwillingess to see it. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
224
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:34:00 -
[862] - Quote
Perfectly safe huh? Strange... all those farming fleets that collapsed all their wormholes including their static and was watching scanner window constantly and still got killed must be a figment of our imagination and a glitch on zkillboard.
what a joke. you sir are a joke. |
Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 11:49:00 -
[863] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:
So log off and cry me a river. You rolling your chain safely and then continuing to carebear away benefits no one.
You logging off cause it wasn't perfectly safe for you to achieve a Wh with no entry points actually benefits the rest of the players that actually only PVE to PVP by increasing the value of MNR's when all you whining carebears can't farm more then you should be.
I remind you that "whining carebears" are a part of EvE economy, balanced around PLEXes, many of us also go balls deep into building your T3 stuff you fly and never going to make, because you already play "Excel in space" and doing "Excel as is" is over the top for most "nice guys" like you. So, if you claim that you know how much we should be farming, please, shed some light on concrete numbers or have Fozzie to grow up enough balls to tell us in face that we can go fozz ourselves because he or his predecessor(s) failed hard on the design and or balance , at least both sides will have a great relief getting rid of ridiculous bulls***.
Thanks in advance.
P.S.: Never cried a river after a shiny loss, leave alone the dirt cheap T2s and T3s we fly in W-systems. Every ship I fly is not only effective, but efficient, if you think it isn't, that you underestimate my scale =) |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 12:01:00 -
[864] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote: it is NOT risk free. ive killed MANY people closing WHs before and expect to do it again in the future. It isnt hard and there is VERY real risk involved in combat rolling and anyone claiming otherwise is either lying or incompetent.
This is what Fozzie isn't getting - its already dangerous to roll holes. Maybe something needs to be done to make insta-rolling no longer possible, but this change as-proposed breaks too many other good things about wormholes to get at the behavior change he's looking for.
This is like a classic CCP sledgehammer nerf to a mechanic that was working fine as-is for most WH dwellers. If any change was required to deny insta-rolling it could be done much more subtlely than this, frankly. |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
752
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 15:34:00 -
[865] - Quote
Katerin Archer wrote:Winthorp wrote:
So log off and cry me a river. You rolling your chain safely and then continuing to carebear away benefits no one.
You logging off cause it wasn't perfectly safe for you to achieve a Wh with no entry points actually benefits the rest of the players that actually only PVE to PVP by increasing the value of MNR's when all you whining carebears can't farm more then you should be.
I remind you that "whining carebears" are a part of EvE economy, balanced around PLEXes, many of us also go balls deep into building your T3 stuff you fly and never going to make, because you already play "Excel in space" and doing "Excel as is" is over the top for most "nice guys" like you. So, if you claim that you know how much we should be farming, please, shed some light on concrete numbers or have Fozzie to grow up enough balls to tell us in face that we can go fozz ourselves because he or his predecessor(s) failed hard on the design and or balance , at least both sides will have a great relief getting rid of ridiculous bulls***. Thanks in advance. P.S.: Never cried a river after a shiny loss, leave alone the dirt cheap T2s and T3s we fly in W-systems. Every ship I fly is not only effective, but efficient, if you think it isn't, that you underestimate my scale =)
lol @ farming sleepers = having balls |
SalubriousSky Rinah
Cryptic Spear Space Warriors
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:20:00 -
[866] - Quote
TL;DR...if mentioned already, then apologies.
CCP seem intent on making changes to Bob's WHs (I'm wondering if they have actually consulted Bob on this occasion as well) in the form of these ludicrous mass based spawn distances...
You're not going to make things any easier or riskier for WH people because they are a very resourceful group of players...perhaps the most resourceful and inventive in the game. The only thing you are achieveing here is demonstrating your complete lack of insight into their way of life and quite frankly a very short sighted view of how PvP works in capital class WH systems. Holes will still be rage rolled using capitals or not, it may just take MORE TIME.
Let's be honest, we were not supposed to live in WHs, and so in theory they really aren't capsuleer friendly...just look at the awful state of POS mechanics, which you have yet to tackle. And since less than, what, 5% of all players live in WH space, we're not really much of a 'real-world' money sink for your profit margins, i.e. subs etc.
So, instead of making this a Mass-Based Spawn DISTANCE change, why don't you make it a Mass-Based Spawn TIME change and be done with it. Why not make the polarisation times dependent upon the mass of the ship, but still keep the same spawn distance mechanics that exist in game. Please note, I am only suggesting the course of action, because you seem hell bent on making some kind of change to WH mechanics.
So for example, a beloved carrier would get pretty much instantly polarised upon jumping, whereas a battleship would say have to wait 2 minutes before jumping back...idk, in my mind this would actually encourage more PvP fleet hole rolling since guys would have to jump through to defend their corp mates if they were engaged on the other side.
Just a thought, I doubt you will implement such a change this late in the game...but at the end of the day, the message to CCP is also pretty clear - DON'T FIX WHAT ISN'T BROKEN (in the first place).
Sal |
Ned Black
Driders
78
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:27:00 -
[867] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:So thats the Second dev blog stating that this change is happening......THEN WHATS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD IF UR JUST GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY
also wtf with the nestor? I just listened to fozzie talking on down the pipe, He is clear that all options of keeping it, changing it, or removing it are on the table and they are closely watching these forums before they make a final decision. That seems fair and reasonable, no matter how much we dislike this new feature. As for the Nestor, it is too expensive and still insufficiently defined, hopefully that will change. I still cannot find a role for it other than bait.
Sounds like stalling to me...
At least if you start looking att CCPs track record about unpopular changes
The ONLY time I am aware of CCP backpaddeling is with the P2W debacle, and that was not even a change but an internal news letter... after 5-10k canceled their accounds within a week or so... other than that... I have no recollection of CCP backing up on a new feature ever... they may "tweak" it, but it WILL come no matter what people say in this thread. |
Dr Cormack
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 16:51:00 -
[868] - Quote
BU noobs left w-space. Bha. Noone cares. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
224
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 18:26:00 -
[869] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:So thats the Second dev blog stating that this change is happening......THEN WHATS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD IF UR JUST GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY
also wtf with the nestor? I just listened to fozzie talking on down the pipe, He is clear that all options of keeping it, changing it, or removing it are on the table and they are closely watching these forums before they make a final decision. That seems fair and reasonable, no matter how much we dislike this new feature. As for the Nestor, it is too expensive and still insufficiently defined, hopefully that will change. I still cannot find a role for it other than bait. Sounds like stalling to me... At least if you start looking att CCPs track record about unpopular changes The ONLY time I am aware of CCP backpaddeling is with the P2W debacle, and that was not even a change but an internal news letter... after 5-10k canceled their accounds within a week or so... other than that... I have no recollection of CCP backing up on a new feature ever... they may "tweak" it, but it WILL come no matter what people say in this thread. I only know of the Relic/Data site loot can spew that they EVENTUALLY retracted, but that was because people found out how to horrendously game it to completely break the market for those items. Like I don't know if data discs will ever recover.
I will be super surprised if this change doesn't go through. CCP's track record is abysmal for listening to their playerbase.
|
Jack Branigan
Deadspace Knights
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 19:57:00 -
[870] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: I will be super surprised if this change doesn't go through. CCP's track record is abysmal for listening to their playerbase.
I don't agree with that at all. There are numerous things that have changed due to player complains. Off the top of my head
-freighter rigs (now low slots) -expanded walking in stations (scrapped due to player complaints) -loot spew mechanic (nobody liked this) -warping to only within 10km (prior to warp to 0) Although it is argued this was only because the server was getting full from everyone's warp to points they were saving in every single system....
Now that being said I hope they listen to the screaming masses on this topic. This idea is terrible. As multiple others have said it's not going to create PVP content at all. More prevent it and loss of subs will follow.
I myself have been training for the last 6 months to fly a Nag with near perfect skills. Now within 3 weeks of being able to fly it they drop this bomb. My corp has already talked about leaving our WH as we would not be able to effectively defend a dread 20 km from the hole and closing with BS would take so long it wouldn't even be worth while. If my corp does decide to exodus out of our WH I will have essentially spent the last half a year wasting training time. THAT in itself is enough that I won't feel like playing this game anymore. I know I can go to null sec for capital fights but that's not what I enjoyed about eve. I continued playing because I enjoyed wh space. Other than the lack of spawning k162's this entire patch just feels like an assault on WH dwellers.
|
|
Jack Branigan
Deadspace Knights
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:02:00 -
[871] - Quote
On another note I'm going to simply refer to this as the "FYH" patch. Because if feels like i just had the following convo with CCP.
CCP - "What do you enjoy about eve?"
Me - "Wormholes. That's all I like hence why my corp and I live in a very nice wormhole."
CCP - "Oh yeah? Well in that case........ **CK YOUR HOLE!"
hence why this will be called the "FYH" patch
Note: i'm putting this in a separate post so that if it gets deleted my previous legit comment will stay.... lol |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:06:00 -
[872] - Quote
-_- |
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn
Querschlaeger
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:12:00 -
[873] - Quote
+1 for the change. i know this is bad for the high class groups but to be true. it's too easy atm. |
Icarus Able
The Scope Gallente Federation
435
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 20:40:00 -
[874] - Quote
Ned Black wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:So thats the Second dev blog stating that this change is happening......THEN WHATS THE POINT OF THIS THREAD IF UR JUST GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY
also wtf with the nestor? I just listened to fozzie talking on down the pipe, He is clear that all options of keeping it, changing it, or removing it are on the table and they are closely watching these forums before they make a final decision. That seems fair and reasonable, no matter how much we dislike this new feature. As for the Nestor, it is too expensive and still insufficiently defined, hopefully that will change. I still cannot find a role for it other than bait. Sounds like stalling to me... At least if you start looking att CCPs track record about unpopular changes The ONLY time I am aware of CCP backpaddeling is with the P2W debacle, and that was not even a change but an internal news letter... after 5-10k canceled their accounds within a week or so... other than that... I have no recollection of CCP backing up on a new feature ever... they may "tweak" it, but it WILL come no matter what people say in this thread.
Loot Spew. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
708
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:02:00 -
[875] - Quote
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn wrote:+1 for the change. i know this is bad for the high class groups but to be true. it's too easy atm.
This change doesn't make things hard though it just makes them tedious its actually worse for the smaller groups than the bigger entities in high class systems who can mostly defend their capitals and/or have good intel on what most of the groups likely to be a threat to them are doing at any one time. |
CorranCHalcyon
THE AESIR.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 21:11:00 -
[876] - Quote
I have held off on posting feed back as to ensure I have a calm mind. So CCP, let us begin.
I must say the new suggested Mass Based Spawn Distance mechanic does not sit well with me. I do not own any capitol but, I still think this is a miss step on CCP's part.
This particular WH mechanic was fine first go. CCP Seagull has already state that she knows this will affect rage rolling. And it will. Rage rolling is a great way to hunt for targets when your chain is quiet or just dead. By implementing this new mechanic PVP and thus content creation will slow in W-space. This adds to the grind factor for players, as well as the delay/downtime for fleets when they are working to find PVP/content.
Anyone who has formed a PVP fleet and went roaming knows if you have repetitive activities (As the new mechanic would cause, jump, slow boat back to the hole, wash rinse repeat) the fleet gets bored and people start to go afk. Or if there is no targets (Delay caused by taking so long to rageroll) people start getting bored and leave fleet, or again go afk.
This mechanic would do more to protect capitals from dictors who might try to catch a capitol on a hole. This adds unneccesary delay to game play and provides capitol ships a nice distance away from the hole as to have a good chance of avoiding a dictor bubble.
As I said I do not own any capitols so this new mechanic would affect me less with my sub caps. But even with that, if I get webbed and killed on a hole because I spawn 10k away and I get webbed and pointed before I can burn back to the hole or warp off I am going to feel like CCP is screwing me over.
As for people who are saying they are tired of people jumping through a hole seeing hostiles and jumping back and getting away. That is why you have a dictor/HIC with you. Or you bring a fast/insta locking frig/T3. If you come prepared (As you should) you can get kills.
Most of the comments I have read who are praising this seem to come from players who live in Nullsec. Those who don't like W-space. Also who know little of W-space. A trend I have noticed from the CSM for the past several years is the Null reps have repeatedly proposed changes to W-space that would favor them than people who actually live in W-space.
CCP I have a suggestion. If you find it feasible, split the CSM into three smaller CSM councils of three or four people. One for Null, Lowsec and W-space. They would all have the same duties as the current incarnation of the CSM does, but they would also represent their own areas of space. Null would have no responsibilities nor any say in W-space or Lowsec. And the other two councils would follow the same guidelines respectively. Also with this paradigm for CSM it would break the sheer numbers that Null Alliances have to control the vote for the majority of the CSM. It would give other organizations to have a primary voice. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3645
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 22:59:00 -
[877] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote: unlike now you could simply roll even when it wasn't safe. AFter change, nope. STuck, log off.
So log off and cry me a river. You rolling your chain safely and then continuing to carebear away benefits no one. You logging off cause it wasn't perfectly safe for you to achieve a Wh with no entry points actually benefits the rest of the players that actually only PVE to PVP by increasing the value of MNR's when all you whining carebears can't farm more then you should be. what the hell does it have to do with PVE? This doesnt affect PVE groups anywhere NEAR as much as it affects PVP groups. say a small 30 man PVP only corp that has 4 people on is looking for a chain to find some PVP in, maybe a route to HS to get some pilots back in after they were podded, and they roll into NOHO, or HK, or SSC or any other group that has 40 people on and that the small corp can in no way fight. what are they meant to do? currently, they can roll the hole with a reasonable amount of safety (though it's still risky to roll against people who know what they are doing) and continue looking for action they can handle. after the change? well, what are they meant to do now? They can't roll the hole at all so their options are to ask the larger corp to do so/let them roll, which they may or may not want to do, or they can sit in their POS and do nothing. Yeah, great choices all around. i cannot understand how anyone who has lived in WHs as long as you can support this. to me it's laughable that you even try defend it. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 23:00:00 -
[878] - Quote
FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? |
Sith1s Spectre
1147
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 23:08:00 -
[879] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each?
Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie.
The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop. Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.12 23:25:00 -
[880] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:
*deletes 35b in assets, and biomass's characters*
Can i haz ur stuff? (dang it too late) LOL, that reminds me of CEO tears in local from a WH corp we sieged. He was busy self destructing T3s cause he couldn't bring a fight against 2-3 guards waiting out the reinforcement period. |
|
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3645
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 01:47:00 -
[881] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie. The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop. Yeah I agree, activity levels in C5/6 space are too damn high!!! Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
132
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 02:42:00 -
[882] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie. The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop. Yeah I agree, activity levels in C5/6 space are too damn high!!! I too would like to move into C7 space. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1556
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 04:37:00 -
[883] - Quote
There has to be a balance between risk and reward for PVE, and between PVP and PVE.
Risks for competent carebears who have decent probe alts and a basic grasp of maths is, prior to Hyperion, about zero. prior to the removal of API kill logs from wormholes, there was always a risk of Blood union doing a logoff trap and scuttling your escalation bear quad. Now, almost zero chance as long as you don't religiously sign on every day at the same time for 3 weeks in a row and are coincidentally on someone's watch list.
The supporters of this change are, in my opinion, not thinking this through in depth. Proximally, yes, this does increase risk in jumping a wormhole, all the way from C1 through C6 space, as only frigs get to spawn more than 0% of the time in jump range.
lets be honest, fighting on highsec is dull. people just jump in, tank a bit, and jump out. Hyperion will discourage this in high-mass ships because you may well get webbed down off the hole (Vigilants online, srsly) and popped. By high-mass i mean anything with a 1600 plate running a prop mod. So, yes, this is good and i support anything that prevents dull cowardly highsec games.
However, by the time you get mass up to Orca levels, the risk level has just got to be murderous as this change is proposed. While I think this will result in more juicy whale meat and i like my whale meat, this won't last. Soon the whales will be endangered and rarely seen, and you'll have Greenpeace up in your junk. Again, proximally, this looks like a great idea. Even moreso with capitals.
Dig a bit deeper.
As jack and others with a tenth of a brain have been saying, the harder it is to rage roll, the harder it is to generate content. W-space is dead enough as it is. I regularly scan for 5 hours, generate 20 wormholes and clog siggy with empty holes. Then the choice is, a) just deal with it and log off, b) respawn and roll again.
If it is slower or functionally nearly impossible to respawn and roll again, this strands you with whatever you have, for hours.
CCP has been slowly trying to make the production of ISK and items in-game a less bot-oriented, less vending machine, more interactive (click button, get candy) process. Wormhole ISk generation is about as intensive a click and chore fest as it gets - far easier to put up with the neckbearded prats in Incursions for 100-125M ISK per hour, than spend 2 hours securing your hole (for no return) and then going through the motions. Comms are more pleasant, but you need alts, mates, or to roll yourself inside the hole.
The tension in wormholes is between farmers, and farmer farmers. Right now the balance is heavily in favour of the farmer, with insta-closing C5 holes. In a way the change is perhaps Fozzie realising the removal of API kill logs is a bit too far, I don't know, but it is arguable you shouldn't be able to do it...but lets be honest, people will find a way.
The point is not whether this throws the risk/reward balance out, but whether this prevents people rolling holes to create content. What's the point, baldly speaking, of putting 20 hours worth of ship on the line, and spend 2 hours safely rolling, to roll a hole to create yourself another 4 hours of work finding nothing.
J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
144
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 04:42:00 -
[884] - Quote
Witchway wrote:I too would like to move into C7 space. SOV in C7, titan escalations, capital sleepers....
+1 |
Julia Rusakova
Area51.net
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 05:28:00 -
[885] - Quote
Quote: We are not satisfied with how easy and safe it is to close wormholes that could potentially allow other players to interact with W-space operations, as the risk of player interaction should always be the main source of tension and danger in W-space.
I couldn't believe my eyes when I read this comment.
1. Its not easy. It takes numbers of hours of skill training and a nearly 1+bil ship. You can't get some beginner pilot to be roll a hole. This doesn't mean its a good idea to junk the whole idea of having mass restrictions. Mass restrictions make the pvp and the pve great.
2. Every system I warp into in k-space nearly has a wormhole that one can go explore. The enticing idea is that this is a "hidden" space under normal space and there should be some tricks to getting there. Otherwise we reduce this to just another lowsec want-to-be.
3. There's plenty of danger in wormholes today. Ask any new player, or maybe just any player in general and they won't tell you that WH space is safe. Make it more dangerous and no one will want to be there.
4. With all the danger, what's the point of running sites? That is, unless you crave hot drops.
One of the key factors that separates k-space from wormhole is the very ability to control the space unlike the rest of the entire game. The current system allows for a whole other dynamic in wormholes not found anywhere else. Its used by pvpers and carebears alike for different purposes and has a really nice balance as it is. By flattening this out, you remove a key part of how wormholes are differentiated from k-space.
It seems to me that the whole idea was a knee jerk reaction to "RageRolling" rather than a feature that benefits the community. The statement says it all, and I quote:
Quote:This change would indeed increase the amount of time involved in GÇ£ragerollingGÇ¥ (intentionally collapsing static wormhole connections repeatedly to search for targets), but we believe that with the correct values ragerolling can still be viable and that the increase in random wormholes will provide a secondary outlet for players looking for fights without needing to rageroll as often.
There are other reasons people roll holes other than ragerolling. Ragerolling itself provides content and additional experiences so I don't see the problem. Closing a hole temporarily to have a temporary safe harbor to gather resources and run sites is not a negative thing. By removing this, you cause an imbalance and make it incredibly dangerous and pretty much useless for smaller corps. So in essence you make it hard for people to move into wormholes in the first place. Rolling a hole is by no means child's play and is not an exploit as it seems to be the connotation.
In short, please oh please don't do the following:
1. Make wormhole space into another lowsec 2. Make wormhole space into another nullsec
Be creative and keep wormhole space unique. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 05:50:00 -
[886] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie. The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop.
But what about anybody small? Orcas will be goner, content generation will be far slower and interaction will at some point nearly cease to exist due to empty WHs? |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1149
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 06:31:00 -
[887] - Quote
Pavel Sohaj wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie. The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop. But what about anybody small? Orcas will be goner, content generation will be far slower and interaction will at some point nearly cease to exist due to empty WHs?
So do you think it is okay for a 5 to 10 toon corporation to live in that space and close anything threatening risk free if scouted correctly?
Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3650
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 06:42:00 -
[888] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here. all WH corps should unsub in mass. lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month. they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie. The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop. But what about anybody small? Orcas will be goner, content generation will be far slower and interaction will at some point nearly cease to exist due to empty WHs? So do you think it is okay for a 5 to 10 toon corporation to live in that space and close anything threatening risk free if scouted correctly? Yes (even assuming it WAS risk free, which it isnt and I know you know better than that.)
It's also not like this only affects small farmer groups badly, it literally affects every single group that lives in WHs badly, as well as everyone in NULL who like closing WHs. There's literal zero upside for anyone anywhere with this change Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 06:52:00 -
[889] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie. The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop. But what about anybody small? Orcas will be goner, content generation will be far slower and interaction will at some point nearly cease to exist due to empty WHs? So do you think it is okay for a 5 to 10 toon corporation to live in that space and close anything threatening risk free if scouted correctly?
Risk free? :D cool, but not real. There is no such thing. Not much mass needed for small T3 gang to ruin your day. Plus they can go in cloaked. |
Ness Phase
Hard Knocks Inc.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 07:15:00 -
[890] - Quote
In short term I like the change, in the long term I do not like this change. This change is mildly annoying for larger groups but I personally see it devastating for smaller groups. |
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 07:20:00 -
[891] - Quote
Well devblog for Hyperion is up and this change is still included. No dev posts in here either. So if you're a small corp, get ready that log-off in the POS button. You'll be using it more. A lot more. |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 08:03:00 -
[892] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Pavel Sohaj wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? Keep the changes and stick to your guns Fozzie. The instant closing of the c5/6 holes has to stop. But what about anybody small? Orcas will be goner, content generation will be far slower and interaction will at some point nearly cease to exist due to empty WHs? So do you think it is okay for a 5 to 10 toon corporation to live in that space and close anything threatening risk free if scouted correctly?
You can always close of and crit holes prior to run sites or whatever activties, but someone can roll into you whenever. A smaller group is actually more prone to get whacked, than a larger that could field a response and try secure assets. In that way a smaller group take greater risk.
We lost caps a few times to rolling holes, nothing risk free about it.
|
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
211
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 08:37:00 -
[893] - Quote
Has Fozzie actually replied in this thread at all after dropping this bombshell of an idea on us? |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 08:52:00 -
[894] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? as a nullsec character I can make 800mill a night if I tried. difference with whs is I can do that every night, wormholers can only keep it up for 4 nights and its dependant on site respawns and number of people in the hole.
nullsec is why plex is 800mill. |
Montgomery Black
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 08:54:00 -
[895] - Quote
Mr Floydy wrote:Has Fozzie actually replied in this thread at all after dropping this bombshell of an idea on us?
He is probably sitting under his desk hyperventilating into a brown paper bag wondering how to extract himself from this mess |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1149
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 10:19:00 -
[896] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? as a nullsec character I can make 800mill a night if I tried. difference with whs is I can do that every night, wormholers can only keep it up for 4 nights and its dependant on site respawns and number of people in the hole. nullsec is why plex is 800mill.
Oh! That must be the reason you see all the 5-10 man farming corps with nullsec ties in 5/6 space Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Thargor
Quantum Industries Prime Orbital Systems
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 10:25:00 -
[897] - Quote
All this will do is make small scale ventures almost impossible while making the huge 0.0 type alliances the only way to secure this kind of space, which will be pointless due to lack of value per player in there been diluted to nothing per player if they did. It would also make these 0.0 alliances considering adding even more of this space to their empires as it will be more viable to their large groups than before. A Lot of players who live in wormholes do so because they are fed up of how 0.0 is controlled and fought over, or because they want a break from their wars there, its not just about the revenue made.
The choice of making K162 holes not show until jumped through will be a nightmare for small scale ventures, great for pew pew addicts though, still a bad call imho.
CCP you are listening too much to the wrong people who are complaining to get more pew pew chances. Active subscriptions are already down due to the plex issue and Industry changes being a bad call, now this, I already know of 6 players who are looking at closing their accs and not bothering with game (2 of which have been playing since beta). How many more will you push out? Start listening to the community it effects fully like Traiori's post, not the people who just want more space in their pockets or easier kills.
These changes for the most part are bad choices by CCP, I hope you reconsider your choices here CCP. |
Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 10:32:00 -
[898] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote: So do you think it is okay for a 5 to 10 toon corporation to live in that space and close anything threatening risk free if scouted correctly?
I think that every small group has an undisputed right to be efficient. If you disagree, please state a real reason. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1149
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 10:46:00 -
[899] - Quote
Katerin Archer wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote: So do you think it is okay for a 5 to 10 toon corporation to live in that space and close anything threatening risk free if scouted correctly?
I think that every small group has an undisputed right to be efficient. If you disagree, please state a real reason.
Can you please show me where I said efficient in my post?
There's nothing wrong with people farming in small groups to min/max their income (and i do it myself).
The problem I have is with those same groups who have chosen to min/max their income (we're talking 5/6 space here) then being able to close any threat to their operations with minimum risk providing they're scouting correctly. Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:09:00 -
[900] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? as a nullsec character I can make 800mill a night if I tried. difference with whs is I can do that every night, wormholers can only keep it up for 4 nights and its dependant on site respawns and number of people in the hole. nullsec is why plex is 800mill. Oh! That must be the reason you see all the 5-10 man farming corps with nullsec ties in 5/6 space I dunno, I moved out of c5 wh space because its easier and safer to make isk in null and I get to shoot more goons and cvgays. my kb has never been this green and my wallet this full. |
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:29:00 -
[901] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Katerin Archer wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote: So do you think it is okay for a 5 to 10 toon corporation to live in that space and close anything threatening risk free if scouted correctly?
I think that every small group has an undisputed right to be efficient. If you disagree, please state a real reason. Can you please show me where I said efficient in my post? There's nothing wrong with people farming in small groups to min/max their income (and i do it myself). The problem I have is with those same groups who have chosen to min/max their income (we're talking 5/6 space here) then being able to close any threat to their operations with minimum risk providing they're scouting correctly. Here's a quick bit of math for you. Assuming you run 6 sites split 4 ways with full escalations. (that's 10 mins a site on average in an hour which is achievable if everyone knows what they're doing) each site on average will pay 700 mil (being conservative here) that's 4.2B roughly for an hours work. Split that 4 ways it's just over 1B each split. I'm sorry but pulling in that sort of income you really do need an element of risk to it and closing connections and the delayed signatures are completely okay with me when you can potentially make that sort of isk in an hour
Trouble is, this change affects every single wormhole connection, not just the C5's and 6's and their content. Those entities that run cap escalations have the numbers to just field a 20 man BS hole rolling doctrine and its back to business as usual.
Small corps take it up the a$$ as usual. Its already dangerous to try and roll a connection to an entity that outnumbers and outguns you. With Hyperion it'll be suicide. You will lose Orcas, for sure. Fozzie thinks we should field support fleets to protect our Orcas, which is bollocks. Small corps can't field a support fleet. Even if a couple ships can be mustered its just more killmail fodder if you're connected to the wrong entity. So this change sucks hard because, for the 16-24 hour lifetime of that connection you can't run any sites and you can't go hunting for fights you can actually take because its not worth the risk to try and roll it. So nothin' to do but logoff at the POS. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
395
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:45:00 -
[902] - Quote
Montgomery Black wrote:Mr Floydy wrote:Has Fozzie actually replied in this thread at all after dropping this bombshell of an idea on us? He is probably sitting under his desk hyperventilating into a brown paper bag wondering how to extract himself from this mess
Ideally he's unconscious on the floor covered in fresh haddok. Other possibiliteis:
He's on the back stairwell on the phone w/ his puppet masters developing the next game breaking feature. He's spinning the spinner on his random feature spinny device to see what the next random feature will be. He's reading his 'How eve really works.... for dummies' book. He's in the dev meeting proclaiming "let them eat cake". He's at the bar thinking about random stuff. He's putting the finishing touches on his house of cards eve edition ivory tower. He's finishing his thesis "why people don't understand a good idea when it's given to them" |
Apelacja
Fungi Company
82
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 11:48:00 -
[903] - Quote
-1
everything was already said.
|
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3653
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:15:00 -
[904] - Quote
BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt. Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
395
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:21:00 -
[905] - Quote
Here's what's been bugging me through all of this. I'm a guy rolling a c5/c6 wh. Once my cap is in warp to the wh - I have at least one capital ship all in. I can't unwarp. So my minimum risk is 1 capital ship.
Cut to the other side of the wh!
The cap is inbound I have several choices.
1. Jump in and tackle the cap ship a. He finishes the roll and I'm in his system fighting him b. He doesn't finish the roll but engages me because he has no other choice (if he doesn't roll I can disengage and jump to safety at will).
2. Fear jumping in and tackling him. a. Complain he rolled the wh risk free (even though he laid a cap out for you to engage) b. Complain on the wh forums that I got blue balled or whatever by someone rolling away from me (because you didn't go all in)
So, overall the rolling folks always risk at least one capital ship minimum when rolling. Saying they do it risk free is always false. You always have the option to go all in.
Currently the ganking group has a much smaller risk once the capital is in warp. They get the choice to engage or not engage, so once the rolling cap is in warp they are in the driver's seat. All I really see this change doing is giving the ability to gank the cap in home system to the party that is ganking the rollers.
It doesn't add risk to the rolling folks, they already committed their cap either way. It does take away risk from the gankers for now they can take said cap in the safety of their own wh. They no longer need to exercise the all in option. Overall this just reduces the risk of the ganking party.
Even if it's 2 large notable pvp entities - the mass limitations favor the guy on the gank side. All you need are numbers great enough to overcome the mass of ships a wh rolling can support.
Tackle the rolling cap on the jump in. Drop 2 carriers, 2 dreads and some support and there is zero chance for the roller to survive. There isn't enough mass on the wh to even bring in a rescue fleet. Even going all in isn't enough against some groups - there just isn't enough mass on a wh for that.
This doesn't make it riskier - it makes rolling certain corps/alliances wh impossible (assuming you desire some sort of chance at surviving/winning). Spawning out of jump range guarantees a duck shoot for a small number of large groups.
Editorial rhetoric: I moved to wh space to ensure I played eve in a place where 'blob' wasn't a key to success. Anything out of jump range ensures 'blob' is the key to success. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1150
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:22:00 -
[906] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? as a nullsec character I can make 800mill a night if I tried. difference with whs is I can do that every night, wormholers can only keep it up for 4 nights and its dependant on site respawns and number of people in the hole. nullsec is why plex is 800mill. Oh! That must be the reason you see all the 5-10 man farming corps with nullsec ties in 5/6 space I dunno, I moved out of c5 wh space because its easier and safer to make isk in null and I get to shoot more goons and cvgays. my kb has never been this green and my wallet this full. hmmm aaah now I see, you were in sky fighters/talocan back in the day before I moved into c5 space. then you hopped from one wh corp to another... so why did you join razor? and it was recent too! what is your motivation for giving a **** about wh space as a nullseccer now? if you are in favor of this change why did you leave wh space. whats you angle here? ps it seems you did pretty well for youself looking at you kb. tell me why you think there wasnt enough pvp in wormhole space and why this change is needed to inflate your kb more. bahaha so wait on the 5th of august you guys killed a farming fleet, and want to tell me with a straight face that wh the bears are 100% safe? pahahahaha what a troll. gets evwn better. another farmer fleet kill in july, june, the ones in may look like pvp stuff, theres another one in feb...
Sure, if you classify being in Sky Fighters for 2 years as corp hopping and then pretty much continuing on from there with the same group of guys, then sure I guess. Please feel free to continue to show us how much you know about WH space.
It's no secret that there is barely any pvp within WH space these days in the higher end holes which is why all the larger groups resort to roaming null to find their daily dose of PvP. It's not like these changes will do anything to impact on that other than a minor inconvenience of having to web the cap off and back to the hole.
To address your other point. Smart bears are currently almost 100% safe. The ones I ganked left their static open...
But hey if you want to pull the KB epeen measuring stick to start validating points, should we start using yours as the measuring stick? Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 12:35:00 -
[907] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt. Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling.
you know that farmers need to roll for content?
What more bothers me in this case, even as a farmer, is the exploit possiblity of K162 spawn. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 13:09:00 -
[908] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Quote: WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each?
as a nullsec character I can make 800mill a night if I tried. difference with whs is I can do that every night, wormholers can only keep it up for 4 nights and its dependant on site respawns and number of people in the hole. nullsec is why plex is 800mill. Oh! That must be the reason you see all the 5-10 man farming corps with nullsec ties in 5/6 space I dunno, I moved out of c5 wh space because its easier and safer to make isk in null and I get to shoot more goons and cvgays. my kb has never been this green and my wallet this full. hmmm aaah now I see, you were in sky fighters/talocan back in the day before I moved into c5 space. then you hopped from one wh corp to another... so why did you join razor? and it was recent too! what is your motivation for giving a **** about wh space as a nullseccer now? if you are in favor of this change why did you leave wh space. whats you angle here? ps it seems you did pretty well for youself looking at you kb. tell me why you think there wasnt enough pvp in wormhole space and why this change is needed to inflate your kb more. bahaha so wait on the 5th of august you guys killed a farming fleet, and want to tell me with a straight face that wh the bears are 100% safe? pahahahaha what a troll. gets evwn better. another farmer fleet kill in july, june, the ones in may look like pvp stuff, theres another one in feb... Sure, if you classify being in Sky Fighters for 2 years as corp hopping and then pretty much continuing on from there with the same group of guys, then sure I guess. Please feel free to continue to show us how much you know about WH space. It's no secret that there is barely any pvp within WH space these days in the higher end holes which is why all the larger groups resort to roaming null to find their daily dose of PvP. It's not like these changes will do anything to impact on that other than a minor inconvenience of having to web the cap off and back to the hole. To address your other point. Smart bears are currently almost 100% safe. The ones I ganked left their static open... But hey if you want to pull the KB epeen measuring stick to start validating points, should we start using yours as the measuring stick? use my kb? pahahahaha. let me save you the hassle. I was in a hs carebear corp for the first part of my eve career. joined a smallish c3 corp because the big ones were too full of ****/elitist. Moved yp c5 space, got evicted eventually and then same corp joined ragnaroc (boy was that a mistake) we had some fun in ls for a while, pvp was great but isk not so much then tried wh space again but as a small corp it just wasnt safe enough. even lost a farming fleet with all holes collapsed and manually refreshing discovery scanner every 5 seconds. so I love how you continue to vomit all that safe farming bullshit over and over.
After that I joined the guys from my corp in null and I have been making more isk, easier and safer and with more pvp than ever before. if I get bored of nullsec life ill probbly quit eve as wh space will be dead/a joke.
but I like how you didnt answer any of my questions and how you kb shows the exact oposite of what you are crying about. get rekt. |
Jack Branigan
Deadspace Knights
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 13:31:00 -
[909] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each?
You're an idiot. If you want to know who is buying plex's at that price look to incursion runners. They have to keep their 10+ isboxed vindy's running somehow... |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1150
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 13:52:00 -
[910] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: joined ragnaroc.
lol, you don't need to say anything else now :) Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 14:36:00 -
[911] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: joined ragnaroc. lol, that explains everything.... You're not a very smart person are you?
regardless, if that's the best you can do then I feel kinda silly wasting all that effort. no one else seems to be taking you seriously. |
Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:28:00 -
[912] - Quote
Fozzie! Get some balls! Speak to us!
Your silence just endorses that this thread is nothing but a formality and you don't care about our opinion indeed. |
Kaede Hita
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.13 18:36:00 -
[913] - Quote
Will all the WH changes go live at the same time ? Because when you try to fix a problem, moving all variables at once doesn't help reading cause and effects of each new feature. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 01:33:00 -
[914] - Quote
Katerin Archer wrote:Fozzie! Get some balls! Speak to us!
Your silence just endorses us that this thread is nothing but a formality and you don't care about our opinion indeed. Last reply was on page 27, and felt like an "Attaboy, keep posting so we can read it." Nothing was actually being said of our revulsion against this change. I hope they scrap it, but it really feels like the player base is being ignored and we have no say in this matter, and once it was "open for debate" the changes were already set in stone. I wish they had asked the wormhole residents before offering to do an expansion on our content. New content could have worked, especially more and varied PVE content, as that always generates PVP situations. The "EVE is Easy" changes to exploration caused part of that. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
33
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 01:48:00 -
[915] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: joined ragnaroc. lol, that explains everything.... You're not a very smart person are you? regardless, if that's the best you can do then I feel kinda silly wasting all that effort. no one else seems to be taking you seriously. actually you might not be bright enough to figure it out on your own so ill throw you a bone, we were in rag for less than a month. heck for probably less than two weeks considering we went nomading soon as we got there. dont you feel stupid for not checking the facts properly.
I assure you that in the wormhole community, whether we agree with him or not, Sith1s opinions are taken seriously.
Your opinions are .. wait, who are you again? Perhaps you shouldn't start forum wars here with people you don't know. |
The Feuror
Release the Hounds
60
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 02:12:00 -
[916] - Quote
Bah.... I ran out of popcorn ^ probably a troll. |
Kusum Fawn
State Protectorate Caldari State
517
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 02:27:00 -
[917] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: joined ragnaroc. lol, that explains everything.... You're not a very smart person are you? regardless, if that's the best you can do then I feel kinda silly wasting all that effort. no one else seems to be taking you seriously. actually you might not be bright enough to figure it out on your own so ill throw you a bone, we were in rag for less than a month. heck for probably less than two weeks considering we went nomading soon as we got there. dont you feel stupid for not checking the facts properly. I assure you that in the wormhole community, whether we agree with him or not, Sith1s opinions are taken seriously. Your opinions are .. wait, who are you again? Perhaps you shouldn't start forum wars here with people you don't know.
Why ? Why are his opinions taken seriously? I usually dont post in this section of the forum, but i havent seen anything worthwhile posted by that guy yet, perhaps you could link something of his that is an example ? Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
33
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 02:39:00 -
[918] - Quote
@ccp What is the reward we are going to get for these extra risks?
How are all these new changes going to encourage people currently living in w-space to not only stay, but be More active?
How are the changes going to entice players who live in k-space to want to try wormhole life?
One of the first business concepts taught to me was that in business you will always lose customers and you will always gain new customers. The goal is to gain more than you lose.
If w-space is its own business model, what about these changes do you think is going to draw new wormhole customers?
If you tell me the rewards will be so great that more people will want to live a wormhole life, then I won't say anything against any of the changes, but I honestly don't believe that right now. The long term effect looks like it will drive more people out or into inactive status.
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
33
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 03:11:00 -
[919] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:Kirasten wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: joined ragnaroc. lol, that explains everything.... You're not a very smart person are you? regardless, if that's the best you can do then I feel kinda silly wasting all that effort. no one else seems to be taking you seriously. actually you might not be bright enough to figure it out on your own so ill throw you a bone, we were in rag for less than a month. heck for probably less than two weeks considering we went nomading soon as we got there. dont you feel stupid for not checking the facts properly. I assure you that in the wormhole community, whether we agree with him or not, Sith1s opinions are taken seriously. Your opinions are .. wait, who are you again? Perhaps you shouldn't start forum wars here with people you don't know. Why ? Why are his opinions taken seriously? I usually dont post in this section of the forum, but i havent seen anything worthwhile posted by that guy yet, perhaps you could link something of his that is an example ?
Respect is not earned in our world by what you say on the forums, but rather by what you do on the field. I am not defending Sith1s posts, he is more than capable of that himself. To use your words, I'm merely throwing you a bone. You won't gain respect for your opinions by attacking the established members. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1728
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 06:18:00 -
[920] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt. Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling.
Yeah because farmers don't crit every connection they have...
Come away from your drool-proof keyboard. +1 |
|
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3658
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 06:27:00 -
[921] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt. Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling. Yeah because farmers don't crit every connection they have... Come away from your drool-proof keyboard. sure, they do. but they really dont need to. id say at least 90% of site ganks are due to poeple rolling in directly.
if they really want to they can still crit with cheap BSs, or they can move to hole with c1/2 statics that are very easily critted with BSs/small ships. in any case, if you think these changes will see a decrease in farming or that they will still use caps to crit their holes then you are delusional. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Chev Alsar
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 06:59:00 -
[922] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote: It's no secret that there is barely any pvp within WH space these days
Where exactly is your proof that there is less PVP than previously?
Where is your proof that this proposed change will increase the amount of PVP*?
Where is your proof that most PVP happens due to statics being left open?
*Keep in mind you cannot PVP people in Wormholes that no longer play in Wormhole space. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 07:20:00 -
[923] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt. Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling. Yeah because farmers don't crit every connection they have... Come away from your drool-proof keyboard. sure, they do. but they really dont need to. id say at least 90% of site ganks are due to poeple rolling in directly. if they really want to they can still crit with cheap BSs, or they can move to hole with c1/2 statics that are very easily critted with BSs/small ships. in any case, if you think these changes will see a decrease in farming or that they will still use caps to crit their holes then you are delusional.
short term, perhaps, long term will mean less people.
Point is, when you spawn away from WH, there is bigger chance you get shot, killed, poded and whatnot. For some gruops, that can be game-ending since if you for example kill out everybody in the hole and they have no backup to scan? Might be silly, or might just be they dont have enough blob for everything.
Not everybody is god-almighty in wormholes and although you might say, then they should not come, question is why? WHy deny them? Isnt the goal to make the space more populated? Most opinions here promote the elitism in WHs. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2091
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 07:44:00 -
[924] - Quote
Can you all pass me the magic crystal ball since you all know what's gonna happen in the future? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 09:04:00 -
[925] - Quote
the changes has a negative effect on smaller corps. itll be harder to make a living as it'll take longer to crit/roll holes, there will be more of them and it will be more dangerous (even using bs instead of caps/orcas). there will be holes that they cant close that means a decent sized frig fleet can come in and establish hole control while keeping pve assets pinned in sites. larger corps will have the numbers to work around or simply ignore most of these issues but it will still effect them. these are facts not opinions.
as someone else said, there is no increase in reward and given these facts, what exactly do you think is going to happen? you dont exactly need a crystal ball to form your own opinion. I mean you can still form the wrong opinion I guess but everyone will see you for the fool you are, regardless if you're a bigshot in the wh community.
and I don't care if you're an npc corp alt, in HK, null or a ccp dev, if you are being a ****** I will call you out on it. |
crazy0146
The Federation of assorted candy
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 09:47:00 -
[926] - Quote
I now know why ccp is thinking of making this change!
Go read the planned changes to the nestor in F&I.
They want to discourage cap use and encourage corps to start using the nestor, as it will be a smaller worse carrier, but won't spawn far from the hole.
This is all to get people to actually use the nestor. |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 09:56:00 -
[927] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt. Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling. Yeah because farmers don't crit every connection they have... Come away from your drool-proof keyboard.
He said exactly what you said [/facepalm]. Yes farmers crit/close their static currently and the only way to get them is by rage-rolling into them. Since they will be able to do that after expansion too (if they won't be able to close/crit the static they won't farm), less rage-rolling = less farmer ganks, get it?
|
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 10:15:00 -
[928] - Quote
crazy0146 wrote:I now know why ccp is thinking of making this change!
Go read the planned changes to the nestor in F&I.
They want to discourage cap use and encourage corps to start using the nestor, as it will be a smaller worse carrier, but won't spawn far from the hole.
This is all to get people to actually use the nestor.
This and to rely on Mobile Depot's for once
Both these have major flaws. The Depot dies before it onlines and the nestor either has to be stored inside the carrier to make sure it comes out at the same point or has to slow boat to the carrier (big note on having the nestor stored, the moment you pop the nestor out people will lock it up preventing it from being boarded) So Much Sapce |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1730
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 10:39:00 -
[929] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:BTW, for all the people who think this is great because it nerfs farmers, it actually doesnt. Farmers in fact are the only group that actively benefits from this change as there will be WAY less people rage rolling. Yeah because farmers don't crit every connection they have... Come away from your drool-proof keyboard. He said exactly what you said [/facepalm]. Yes farmers crit/close their static currently and the only way to get them is by rage-rolling into them. Since they will be able to do that after expansion too (if they won't be able to close/crit the static they won't farm), less rage-rolling = less farmer ganks, get it?
Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?
If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.
Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.
So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it? +1 |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:03:00 -
[930] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:
Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?
If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.
Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.
So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?
Erm no . You can't say that rage rolling will take longer, even by 2 minutes which i think is about a 50% increase in time, and then pretend it will have the same effectiveness. And farmers will roll with BS's . But I do agree with you that PvE for small corps receives a nerf too because sometime a small corp will have to log off cause of a very bad connection which will be too risky to close, not that now is risk free as some people pretend.
TLDR - can we agree that neither PvE nor PvP are improved by this change? Yes some occasional gank of some poor SOB will happen but .... meh.
P.S. By less i meant less effective not that it won't take place, speaking of rage-rolling. |
|
Winthorp
2545
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:19:00 -
[931] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:Rek Seven wrote:
Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?
If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.
Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.
So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?
Erm no . You can't say that rage rolling will take longer, even by 2 minutes which i think is about a 50% increase in time, and then pretend it will have the same effectiveness. And farmers will roll with BS's . But I do agree with you that PvE for small corps receives a nerf too because sometime a small corp will have to log off cause of a very bad connection which will be too risky to close, not that now is risk free as some people pretend. TLDR - can we agree that neither PvE nor PvP are improved by this change? Yes some occasional gank of some poor SOB will happen but .... meh. P.S. By less i meant less effective not that it won't take place, speaking of rage-rolling.
In my opinion it is of no great loss if a smaller PVE group logs off when they see hostiles, there is no difference from that lack of interaction to the lack of interaction with others if they close their Wh safely and then just farm. Both situations result in no interactions with anyone.
The only interactions that they have with other people if they roll their chain is they are cheap ganks for groups that roll in.
So if they log off they log off, no great loss honestly. We talk all the time of the lack of ISK in low class Wh's and yet we are ok with small groups rolling away any danger and jewing away quietly thus lowering MNR prices that is the main ISK source for low class WH's.
Again i say let them log off, no great loss and only benifit to other people in lower class Wh's. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
36
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:44:00 -
[932] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:Rek Seven wrote:
Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?
If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.
Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.
So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?
Erm no . You can't say that rage rolling will take longer, even by 2 minutes which i think is about a 50% increase in time, and then pretend it will have the same effectiveness. And farmers will roll with BS's . But I do agree with you that PvE for small corps receives a nerf too because sometime a small corp will have to log off cause of a very bad connection which will be too risky to close, not that now is risk free as some people pretend. TLDR - can we agree that neither PvE nor PvP are improved by this change? Yes some occasional gank of some poor SOB will happen but .... meh. P.S. By less i meant less effective not that it won't take place, speaking of rage-rolling.
Well apparently some idea is (not mine) that if this will make the WH space more occupied. I wonder how?:D |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1150
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 11:53:00 -
[933] - Quote
Chev Alsar wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote: It's no secret that there is barely any pvp within WH space these days
Where exactly is your proof that there is less PVP than previously? Where is your proof that this proposed change will increase the amount of PVP*? Where is your proof that most PVP happens due to statics being left open? *Keep in mind you cannot PVP people in Wormholes that no longer play in Wormhole space.
Do me a favor and look up the top killers in WH space on eve kill and tell me where they get the bulk of their kills.
I'd be very surprised if you said WH space.
In regards to proof. No where have i said that this would increase the amount of PvP nor that most PvP happens because of statics left open. I have simply said that currently it is too easy to close threatening holes that allow caps through them Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1151
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 12:06:00 -
[934] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:FleetAdmiralHarper wrote:guys ccp will push this crap out anyway, regardless of what we say here.
all WH corps should unsub in mass.
lets see if they will respond to losing thousands of $ a month.
they will probably just raise plex and sub prices again, forcing the idiots who stayed behind to pay more. but its better then living with the **** the game is turning into.. WHers unsubbing en masse wouldn't do much other than help reduce PLEX prices in Jita. Who do you think is buying them at 800m each? as a nullsec character I can make 800mill a night if I tried. difference with whs is I can do that every night, wormholers can only keep it up for 4 nights and its dependant on site respawns and number of people in the hole. nullsec is why plex is 800mill. Oh! That must be the reason you see all the 5-10 man farming corps with nullsec ties in 5/6 space I dunno, I moved out of c5 wh space because its easier and safer to make isk in null and I get to shoot more goons and cvgays. my kb has never been this green and my wallet this full. hmmm aaah now I see, you were in sky fighters/talocan back in the day before I moved into c5 space. then you hopped from one wh corp to another... so why did you join razor? and it was recent too! what is your motivation for giving a **** about wh space as a nullseccer now? if you are in favor of this change why did you leave wh space. whats you angle here? ps it seems you did pretty well for youself looking at you kb. tell me why you think there wasnt enough pvp in wormhole space and why this change is needed to inflate your kb more. bahaha so wait on the 5th of august you guys killed a farming fleet, and want to tell me with a straight face that wh the bears are 100% safe? pahahahaha what a troll. gets evwn better. another farmer fleet kill in july, june, the ones in may look like pvp stuff, theres another one in feb...
Sure, guess I have to spell everything out for you.
1 - I have been within WH space for the last 3 years. 2 years of that was running Sky Fighters (and then Rolled Out after that which was the majority of Sky Fighters which you would know if you were actually involved within the community) During that time I have flown with (or against) the majority of the other major WH groups from c6 space to c2 space
2 - Things closed down and I hopped around because things have become boring as there are/were litterally only 3-4 other groups who could/would actually fight us/the corps I was on. The rest would just roll away (which other diplos in WH Overlords and then Rainbow Nights could verify from me bitching about it)
3 - Which brings me to where I am now. Most of the larger WH PvP groups now roam null for their main staple of PvP on a day to day basis.
With the new changes and added Null to Null and Null to Lowsec holes spawning in increased number it makes sense for me/Rolled Out to be now based in Null and just cut the whole POS life/scanning the whole damn chain and just go to step 3 of what was a daily activity for us (which was roaming nullsec for pews)
I am/Rolled Out is and always will be still very involved within (and roaming) WH space. We just wont/don't see the need to base our operations from a WH now.
4 - I am still of the opinion that currently if people farming are on the ball they are very much safe. As with the instant sig on the overview now (not like how it use to be where you had to have probes out all the time and refreshing to pick up new signatures) they generally have ample time to finish their siege/triage cycle and get out of the site (unless they're pointed) in addition to easily closing any threatening connections with minimum risk (with proper scouting)
In closing I don't care if people disagree with me, it's my opinion and i'm entitled to it. However I've been round WH space long enough and flown with most groups often enough to be entitled to my opinion even if you don't agree with it.
Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 12:36:00 -
[935] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Lenroc Elisav wrote:Rek Seven wrote:
Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling?
If a group wants to rage roll specifically to kill caps, the 2 additional minutes that the change will add to the process, will not stop them.
Farmers will be less likely to roll as they actually have to put their carrier in danger and if they don't want to take that risk, they either have to run sites with open wormholes or log off.
So yeah, it is a direct nerf to farmers like i said... get it?
Erm no . You can't say that rage rolling will take longer, even by 2 minutes which i think is about a 50% increase in time, and then pretend it will have the same effectiveness. And farmers will roll with BS's . But I do agree with you that PvE for small corps receives a nerf too because sometime a small corp will have to log off cause of a very bad connection which will be too risky to close, not that now is risk free as some people pretend. TLDR - can we agree that neither PvE nor PvP are improved by this change? Yes some occasional gank of some poor SOB will happen but .... meh. P.S. By less i meant less effective not that it won't take place, speaking of rage-rolling. In my opinion it is of no great loss if a smaller PVE group logs off when they see hostiles, there is no difference from that lack of interaction to the lack of interaction with others if they close their Wh safely and then just farm. Both situations result in no interactions with anyone. The only interactions that they have with other people if they roll their chain is they are cheap ganks for groups that roll in. So if they log off they log off, no great loss honestly. We talk all the time of the lack of ISK in low class Wh's and yet we are ok with small groups rolling away any danger and jewing away quietly thus lowering MNR prices that is the main ISK source for low class WH's. Again i say let them log off, no great loss and only benifit to other people in lower class Wh's. weeeellll if they log of it means they aren't doing pve meaning when someone ragwrolls into them, less content.
so technically incorrect on the no interaction part. |
Apelacja
Fungi Company
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:25:00 -
[936] - Quote
actually its preety easy to catch ppl when u are rolling wh ( of course as long as u can use d-scan lol).
However problematic right now is emptiness - u roll 20 h and most probably will not find any wh with activity inside diffrent then few afk ventures
Most of the WH are farmed like 2 h per day few days per week. Many are empty.
If u want to create more pvp content populated wh`s and add some content worth to do but time consuming.
Just imagine what would happen if there will be half of current population in wh
EDit:
Just have a look at FW space - somehow success - well FW guys earn good iskies, many even will say to good, but density of population in those few regions of ls make it healthly. And more ppl more ocasions to pvp = more loose better economy.
I dont `know maybe make some prestige class of WH with like 50 systems so there will be a fight for them? |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3659
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:48:00 -
[937] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling? do you actually believe the crap you put out on these forums or are you just trolling at this point? Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1730
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 13:57:00 -
[938] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling? do you actually believe the crap you put out on these forums or are you just trolling at this point?
I wouldn't say it if it didn't believe it.
You alway disagree without making a point or having a strong argument. Instead of your dump one line responses, how about you engage your brain and post something that has a basis in reality? If you can't do that stfu and stop reading my posts.
Prove me wrong Jack, i double dare you. +1 |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out
1152
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:08:00 -
[939] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling? do you actually believe the crap you put out on these forums or are you just trolling at this point? I wouldn't say it if it didn't believe it. You alway disagree without making a point or having a strong argument. Instead of your dump one line responses, how about you engage your brain and post something that has a basis in reality? If you can't do that stfu and stop reading my posts. Prove me wrong Jack, i double dare you.
To be fair Jack and I have had many heated discussions (in a channel we both hang out in to keep in touch) and he has presented several strong points (of which we can never agree on anything really).
I guess from his point of view (and he'll correct me if i'm wrong) he's worried these changes will empty out WH space even more than the current wasteland in the higher end holes. You only need to look at how empty c6 space is and has never really recovered after the mass evictions from 2 years ago Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
402
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:15:00 -
[940] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:In my opinion it is of no great loss if a smaller PVE group logs off when they see hostiles, there is no difference from that lack of interaction to the lack of interaction with others if they close their Wh safely and then just farm. Both situations result in no interactions with anyone. The only interactions that they have with other people if they roll their chain is they are cheap ganks for groups that roll in. So if they log off they log off, no great loss honestly. We talk all the time of the lack of ISK in low class Wh's and yet we are ok with small groups rolling away any danger and jewing away quietly thus lowering MNR prices that is the main ISK source for low class WH's. Again i say let them log off, no great loss and only benifit to other people in lower class Wh's.
|
|
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:19:00 -
[941] - Quote
Sigh CCP better update us on this soon before the WH'ers here continue eating each other and it starts to derail
(Tinfoil on) That's probably why they haven't replied yet. they know that after a period of time we will turn on each other and then forget the change so they can put it in like they already are planning to (tinfoil off) So Much Sapce |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
371
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:20:00 -
[942] - Quote
I do have to ask, why again, there wasn't some kind of debate here since I see 4-5 threads in F&I that ask for feedback and direction (especially from industrialists).
For example - asking about changes that people would like to see implemented... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360465
I mean it is nice to feel like a second class citizen and that your opinion doesn't matter but hey. Just thinking out loud here. |
Winthorp
2548
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:21:00 -
[943] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Sigh CCP better update us on this soon before the WH'ers here continue eating each other and it starts to derail
You think this didn't derail after page 4..... You must be new here. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:23:00 -
[944] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Sigh CCP better update us on this soon before the WH'ers here continue eating each other and it starts to derail
You think this didn't derail after page 4..... You must be new here.
I had hope's but after your first comment it went to hell So Much Sapce |
Winthorp
2548
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 14:23:00 -
[945] - Quote
Noxisia Arkana wrote:I do have to ask, why again, there wasn't some kind of debate here since I see 4-5 threads in F&I that ask for feedback and direction (especially from industrialists). For example - asking about changes that people would like to see implemented... https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=360465I mean it is nice to feel like a second class citizen and that your opinion doesn't matter but hey. Just thinking out loud here.
There has been countless debates in this WH subforum, COUNTLESS DEBATES.
I am sorry you have only noticed this subsection and or cared to post here when you saw a dev blog or reddit post, but to say there has been no debates about this stuff is just ludicrous. |
Katsumoto Moliko
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve WormHole Occupation and Resource Exploitation
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:01:00 -
[946] - Quote
I think Traiori definitely hit the nail on the head when it comes to explaining the crux of the issue with this proposed change.
The change proposed would put a significant risk on using large-mass ships to effectively close holes, yes, but it also will have several negative long term effects;
For groups that are able to field the mentioned support in the unpredictable environment of wormhole space, the change is a mere nuisance at best. Their "risk" remains almost the same; the probability of their assets being threatened with their support on field remains low, with the only challenge coming from other large groups. Cycling a hole would simply take a longer time, delaying the undertaking of potential content with the necessity of carrying out a pointlessly more time consuming activity in order to obtain the same result.
For groups not able to consistently field the necessary support, and with capitals in preciously short supply, the proposed change would render them at the absolute mercy of the larger groups. How would these smaller groups respond to a larger entity pouncing on their home system? The exact same method they respond with in the present when rolling a hole is not possible without an almost certain loss of the ships; they will simply return to their POS shields and sit it out, or log off entirely.
In conclusion, the proposed changes do not even have a solid theoretical base for their intended positive outcome; instead of creating content, the mechanic would only render cycling holes that much harder and outright prevent meaningful interaction between large and small entities in W-Space.
And everybody knows lack of fights = bad juju. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:08:00 -
[947] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling? do you actually believe the crap you put out on these forums or are you just trolling at this point? I wouldn't say it if it didn't believe it. You alway disagree without making a point or having a strong argument. Instead of your dump one line responses, how about you engage your brain and post something that has a basis in reality? If you can't do that stfu and stop reading my posts. Prove me wrong Jack, i double dare you. lets say a corp rage rolls for 7h a night (nice big corp with a wide actice tz)
lets say it takes 5min (not sure on normal time) to rage roll a hole. thats 84 holes a night.
now with this change lets say it takes an average extra 3minutes to slowboat back (170sec for a moros at 15km, 220 sec at 20km)
so now it takes 8min to rageroll. thats 52 holes a night. now call me a wizzard but 52 sure does seem an awefull lot like less than 84. I guess if you want to be anal about it they're still ragerolling 7h so not less ragerolling, just less holes, less content, more bad.
but hay how many holes you poke your scout in a night is none of my business.
ps. numbers are only representative. if someone could be so kind as to give normal average minutes per hole that'd be grand. alsp yey hole jokes. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:10:00 -
[948] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Jack Miton wrote:Rek Seven wrote:Your logic is flawed.. Why do you assume there will be less rage rolling? do you actually believe the crap you put out on these forums or are you just trolling at this point? I wouldn't say it if it didn't believe it. You alway disagree without making a point or having a strong argument. Instead of your dump one line responses, how about you engage your brain and post something that has a basis in reality? If you can't do that stfu and stop reading my posts. Prove me wrong Jack, i double dare you. lets say a corp rage rolls for 7h a night (nice big corp with a wide actice tz)
lets say it takes 5min (not sure on normal time) to rage roll a hole. thats 84 holes a night.
now with this change lets say it takes an average extra 3minutes to slowboat back (170sec for a moros at 15km, 220 sec at 20km)
so now it takes 8min to rageroll. thats 52 holes a night. now call me a wizzard but 52 sure does seem an awefull lot like less than 84. I guess if you want to be anal about it they're still ragerolling 7h so not less ragerolling, just less holes, less content, more bad.
but hay how many holes you poke your scout in a night is none of my business.
ps. numbers are only representative. if someone could be so kind as to give normal average minutes per hole that'd be grand. alsp yey hole jokes. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1731
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:24:00 -
[949] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: lets say a corp rage rolls for 7h a night (nice big corp with a wide actice tz)
lets say it takes 5min (not sure on normal time) to rage roll a hole. thats 84 holes a night.
now with this change lets say it takes an average extra 3minutes to slowboat back (170sec for a moros at 15km, 220 sec at 20km)
so now it takes 8min to rageroll. thats 52 holes a night. now call me a wizzard but 52 sure does seem an awefull lot like less than 84. I guess if you want to be anal about it they're still ragerolling 7h so not less ragerolling, just less holes, less content, more bad.
but hay how many holes you poke your scout in a night is none of my business.
ps. numbers are only representative. if someone could be so kind as to give normal average minutes per hole that'd be grand. alsp yey hole jokes.
I don't know about anyone else but when we roll for caps, we spend an hour at most. We will probably role 10 wormholes in that time and if we don't find anything, we scan the chain or head out to null for out pvp fix.
After the changes we will probably be able to warp a dread off and back to the hole within 2 minutes, so we'll only be extending our current rolling session by 20 minutes, which is nothing.
So in our case nothing will change apart from the farmer having, in theory, an additional 2 minutes to finish their siege/triage cycles and warp out... Would you feel anymore safer with those odds?
Edit: the only people that roll for 7 hours are people looking to evict someone. There is an argument to be made that, due to the changes, evictions and giant blue blobs are going to become a thing of the past, which is a good thing IMO. +1 |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:45:00 -
[950] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: lets say a corp rage rolls for 7h a night (nice big corp with a wide actice tz)
lets say it takes 5min (not sure on normal time) to rage roll a hole. thats 84 holes a night.
now with this change lets say it takes an average extra 3minutes to slowboat back (170sec for a moros at 15km, 220 sec at 20km)
so now it takes 8min to rageroll. thats 52 holes a night. now call me a wizzard but 52 sure does seem an awefull lot like less than 84. I guess if you want to be anal about it they're still ragerolling 7h so not less ragerolling, just less holes, less content, more bad.
but hay how many holes you poke your scout in a night is none of my business.
ps. numbers are only representative. if someone could be so kind as to give normal average minutes per hole that'd be grand. alsp yey hole jokes.
I don't know about anyone else but when we roll for caps, we spend an hour at most. We will probably role 10 wormholes in that time and if we don't find anything, we scan the chain or head out to null for our pvp fix. After the changes we will probably be able to warp a dread off and back to the hole within 2 minutes, so we'll only be extending our current rolling session by 20 minutes, which is nothing. So in our case nothing will change apart from the farmer having, in theory, an additional 2 minutes to finish their siege/triage cycles and warp out... Would you feel anymore safer with those odds? Edit: the only people that roll for 7 hours are people looking to evict someone. There is an argument to be made that, due to the changes, evictions and giant blue blobs are going to become a thing of the past, which is a good thing IMO. so it will take you more time, hurting bigger corps causing less content. |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
711
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:53:00 -
[951] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I don't know about anyone else but when we roll for caps, we spend an hour at most. We will probably role 10 wormholes in that time and if we don't find anything, we scan the chain or head out to null for our pvp fix. After the changes we will probably be able to warp a dread off and back to the hole within 2 minutes, so we'll only be extending our current rolling session by 20 minutes, which is nothing. So in our case nothing will change apart from the farmer having, in theory, an additional 2 minutes to finish their siege/triage cycles and warp out... Would you feel anymore safer with those odds? Edit: the only people that roll for 7 hours are people looking to evict someone. There is an argument to be made that, due to the changes, evictions and giant blue blobs are going to become a thing of the past, which is a good thing IMO.
That is similar to the behaviour of most of the more organised 5/6 entities, but that extra few minutes of each time that as far as I can see serves no real purpose and doesn't in any way enhance the experience for anyone except maybe in edge 1% cases is going to make people bored sooner rather than later IMO and its probably only 5-6 holes will get rolled before its decided to call it a night rather than 10-15.
People also rage roll to try and assist other entities not just to evict them, granted it doesn't happen that often but its been a mechanic of w-space for a long time and I think overall it will only dilute down the experience if those odd time things really do kick off in spectacular style the chances of being able to chain roll into the action are considerably diminished.
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Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1731
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:54:00 -
[952] - Quote
If that's what you take away from what i said, sure, whatever man. +1 |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1731
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 15:55:00 -
[953] - Quote
double post +1 |
Ettig Grunar
Grumpy Bastards No Response
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 16:12:00 -
[954] - Quote
Jack Branigan wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: I will be super surprised if this change doesn't go through. CCP's track record is abysmal for listening to their playerbase.
.... Now that being said I hope they listen to the screaming masses on this topic. This idea is terrible. As multiple others have said it's not going to create PVP content at all. More prevent it and loss of subs will follow. I myself have been training for the last 6 months to fly a Nag with near perfect skills. Now within 3 weeks of being able to fly it they drop this bomb. My corp has already talked about leaving our WH as we would not be able to effectively defend a dread 20 km from the hole and closing with BS would take so long it wouldn't even be worth while. If my corp does decide to exodus out of our WH I will have essentially spent the last half a year wasting training time. THAT in itself is enough that I won't feel like playing this game anymore. I know I can go to null sec for capital fights but that's not what I enjoyed about eve. I continued playing because I enjoyed wh space. Other than the lack of spawning k162's this entire patch just feels like an assault on WH dwellers.
/mostly agree with the above !!!
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn wrote:+1 for the change. i know this is bad for the high class groups but to be true. it's too easy atm.
"its too easy" ?! ... are u kidding me! "Easy" does not mean not Dangerous!
CorranCHalcyon wrote:I have held off on posting feed back as to ensure I have a calm mind. So CCP, let us begin.
I must say the new suggested Mass Based Spawn Distance mechanic does not sit well with me. I do not own any capitol but, I still think this is a miss step on CCP's part.
This particular WH mechanic was fine first go. CCP Seagull has already state that she knows this will affect rage rolling. And it will. Rage rolling is a great way to hunt for targets when your chain is quiet or just dead. By implementing this new mechanic PVP and thus content creation will slow in W-space. This adds to the grind factor for players, as well as the delay/downtime for fleets when they are working to find PVP/content.
/agree on that
CorranCHalcyon wrote: This adds unneccesary delay to game play and provides capitol ships a nice distance away from the hole as to have a good chance of avoiding a dictor bubble.
oh, noo! do u know the range of a bubble and the warping/align speed of a cap ?! ;-) "avoiding" bubbles cant be an argument :)
also, i wanted to say something to Sith-¦s and Anize on going conversation - but too many quotes in the posts and to do everyone a favor i dont quote again.
soo, too sum it up with my opinion:
> rolling holes at current state is dangerous enough
> yes it can be quite fast, compared to having slow boat to the hole, but as some posters said before with the right scouting and setup a fleet, in the present state of the game, can still decide whether to engage the rolling target or not. yes ok, right now u need timing and fast reaction. and patch might give the agressor more time. the patch might also just give agressor ( me included) less rolling cap to agress.
> i personally will really think about rolling holes on a sunday morning with a coffee in my hand once this patch come out and nobody in corp or alliance on yet. i lost a cap before trying to roll a hole on my own (which was scouted out already by the enemy - bad for me). making this process take even longer and dangerous wont help rolling at all. it will just keep connections open for a certain amount of time and for certain WH-¦s. well maybe i shouldnt roll a hole on my own - i know. but after the patch i def. wont roll on my own. so this will take away content for me and smaller groups. maybe i dont like the content in the chain and then i would think its too dangerous/takes too long to role.
> the real big entities will roll anyways with their blobb fleets trying to catch farmers. they wont care about 2 more mins once they get used to it.
> on some numbers, how much u can make in a WH in an hour with escalation, i disagree. those numbers are a really high optimum imo. most of the times sth. unexpected happens like a sig popping up, or worst case someone rolling into u, what disturbes the farming/Isk-hours anyways (in case i sound like a bear, i am not :) i rather roll for them :)) |
Ettig Grunar
Grumpy Bastards No Response
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 16:19:00 -
[955] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:True Roff but i think the extra time is just a byproduct of the CCP wanting to make it riskier for people to roll which i think is a good decision.
yes riskier to roll. but isnt it risky enough for smaller groups atm ?!
Rek Seven wrote:
Do you think CCP needs to give us the same level of control that the current rage rolling process allows? e.g. player made wormhole generators?
mhh good point...
i dont wanna say "but", but i still think it would take away content for smaller groups not willing to roll anymore.
other WH changes r just fine with moar spawning k162 etc etc.
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Lucius Kalari
Twilight Souls Surely You're Joking
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 16:20:00 -
[956] - Quote
I don't think I need to repeat what people have already said, I too think this change is bad, but for me the real question is, why haven't we had an answer from Fozzie or anyone from CCP ?
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Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
225
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 16:25:00 -
[957] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Anize, if that's what you take away from what i said, sure, whatever man. I had a longer reply but it got swallowed by the forums. I reread my reply and apologise for the tone. I just didnt want the point I was trying to make be implied as insignificant. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
712
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 16:26:00 -
[958] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:True Roff but i think the extra time is just a byproduct of the CCP wanting to make it riskier for people to roll which i think is a good decision.
Thing is for me I don't really see it as riskier for a lot of people and when it does increase the risk it generally puts the pressure on the smaller entities rather than the bigger ones. While admittedly I've not been very active lately when I have collapsed holes the vast majority of the time the increased risk from spawning further out would be between tiny and non-existent.
Rek Seven wrote: Do you think CCP needs to give us the same level of control that the current rage rolling process allows? e.g. player made wormhole generators?
Don't really have my head around all the pros and cons of that one to give an answer. Being able to reuse quantum flux generators in w-space to toggle on and off depending if you were wanting more activity or not could possibly have some potential. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1019
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 18:25:00 -
[959] - Quote
It still seems that after all these pages, all these posts, and all the discussion we are still at the same point.
This Idea is just Bad and no good can be salvaged from it.
Large corps medium corps and small corps all can see the effects, and whilst a few extra kills will occur in the initial chaos, we will be left with a much less vibrant and poorer home.
The Idea is still universally despised, and I am still unable to see a good side, even though some have tried very hard to find one, there is still no argument that shows we will be better off with it than before it was suggested.
The other changes, whilst not being popular to all, have benefitted from the feedback process, and now OVERALL look like they will benefit the game.
Unfortunately this single Idea has singularly failed to improve, as the core concept is without merit, so no tweaking will change things.
CCP will have to decide to either Implement this knowingly against the extremely strong and clear wishes and views of the wormhole community. Damaging and undermining all they have tried to improve over the last few years in terms of player relations.
Or they will decide to withdraw it, having listened to the clear views of the community, and taken them into account, thanking them for putting their views forward in such a clear and knowledgeable manner, thereby IMPROVING their player relations and building on their years of work in this direction.
One cannot expect them to be posting regular updates in this thread, once it has reached a state of such clarity, they have clearly said they are reading and listening to this thread. I anticipate, we will either hear something announced at the Wormhole forum, or just before release in a new Dev blog.
That would be the most sensible action for them and gain the best reaction overall. The choice is theirs, but it will be clear and unambiguous either way. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
28
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 18:27:00 -
[960] - Quote
Winthorp wrote: In my opinion it is of no great loss if a smaller PVE group logs off when they see hostiles, there is no difference from that lack of interaction to the lack of interaction with others if they close their Wh safely and then just farm. Both situations result in no interactions with anyone.
The only interactions that they have with other people if they roll their chain is they are cheap ganks for groups that roll in.
So if they log off they log off, no great loss honestly. We talk all the time of the lack of ISK in low class Wh's and yet we are ok with small groups rolling away any danger and jewing away quietly thus lowering MNR prices that is the main ISK source for low class WH's.
Again i say let them log off, no great loss and only benifit to other people in lower class Wh's.
OK I understand your position but it seem that you advocate for less populated C5/C6 because all the small corps that are now making a living there will be moving out or sparsely play. It also seems that you think they'll "downgrade" and go live in C4s or smaller but with the increase connectivity for C4s and new frig holes I doubt you are correct but, hey, that's opinion vs opinion so.... On a side note I really don't give a rats arse about the player driven economy (I know others do and I agree is a matter of play-style) but if CCP continues to remove people from space by diminishing the incentives to be there I'm afraid they'll end up with spreadsheets in station instead of spreadsheets in space.
And finally Winthorp do you really think this change is the best way to increase the risk of rolling worm-holes? I bet people will find ways to roll with BS's effectively (if they can be bothered too) and we are going to be stuck with incapacitated offensive capitals (yes Nestors I know) and with a weakness against null alliances that will be better suited to control wh-null worm-holes and will always have the numbers advantage. |
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Witchway
Hard Knocks Inc.
133
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 19:14:00 -
[961] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:Do you think CCP needs to give us the same level of control that the current rage rolling process allows? e.g. player made wormhole generators? The reality is they created a hard and defined system based on nothing but math when it comes to a wormholes size, jump mass and time of life with a reasonable assumption to be in range of the hole on the jump through for the last few years.
Now all we are doing is taking one of those values and arbitrarily modifYing the value to produce vastly different results for very minimal change. In my opinion if you are going to just start messing with numbers you might as well just make it all random and call it a day.
Will your fleet get trapped? Not as it stands if you know what you're doing but turn up the rng on the mass point of wormholes and let's see the poo start flinging.
Also, this game is a sandbox. You can't make a system based on hard values and expect people not to figure it out. Sandbox are about adapting and learnjng, if they didn't want us to figure out a way to make our own wormhole generators they should have designed it more betterer. |
Doggy Dogwoofwoof
The Eleusinian The Imicus Contract
36
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 20:32:00 -
[962] - Quote
New Devblog incoming, Stream said changes to this are coming. |
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 20:36:00 -
[963] - Quote
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:New Devblog incoming, Stream said changes to this are coming.
he also prattled on at length about how this will make WH's better with 'new' tactics. believe what you want but as was said much earlier this is happening, whether its a good idea or not.
btw that twitch thread is truly hopeless |
Winthorp
2554
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 21:04:00 -
[964] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote:OK I understand your position but it seem that you advocate for less populated C5/C6 because all the small corps that are now making a living there will be moving out or sparsely play. It also seems that you think they'll "downgrade" and go live in C4s or smaller but with the increase connectivity for C4s and new frig holes I doubt you are correct but, hey, that's opinion vs opinion so.... On a side note I really don't give a rats arse about the player driven economy (I know others do and I agree is a matter of play-style) but if CCP continues to remove people from space by diminishing the incentives to be there I'm afraid they'll end up with spreadsheets in station instead of spreadsheets in space.
And finally Winthorp do you really think this change is the best way to increase the risk of rolling worm-holes? I bet people will find ways to roll with BS's effectively (if they can be bothered too) and we are going to be stuck with incapacitated offensive capitals (yes Nestors I know) and with a weakness against null alliances that will be better suited to control wh-null worm-holes and will always have the numbers advantage.
I have always said that i don't agree with the numbers given for this change but yes i do feel this change is a step in the right direction and CCP themselves have proven recently the will to make changes after the fact if things havn't worked out so well so i trust that they will jump in if things get dire as you all think will, i do not think it will come to that.
Sadly you need to consider the player economy though as that is probably 90% of why people come to WH space to begin with, but the state of farming in C5/6 space really needs a shakeup i hope you can agree on that part. (p.S i really don't think the majority will move out of C5/6 space at all, farmers will always adapt)
Now if that does get shaken up then you will be left with PVP entities in C5/6 space or at least PVP entities that do use their ISK to fund PVP within WH space and not the state we are in now where the great majority of the farmers use our space to fund their Null/LS PVP, that i can't abide with and that is why i support these changes.
I also don't think C4's will be a wasteland like the hysteria suggests, sure will it take a little longer to roll their unwanted connections? Yes and they will be at a touch more risk when doing so and may lose an extra BS or two but it really wont be the end of the world as they are calling it. CCP has already stated they are looking at the ISK income of WH sites so there will be extra incentive to take the extra risk that is given.
No change CCP can make will suit everyone 100% but man they needed to start somewhere because it isnt at all ideal the way it is. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
144
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 21:27:00 -
[965] - Quote
Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:New Devblog incoming, Stream said changes to this are coming.
Wanna bet this won't get changed? |
Zane Ziebold
Mom 'n' Pop Ammo Shoppe R.E.P.O.
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 21:34:00 -
[966] - Quote
why don't you drop the distance down to like 8-10km so that's its not to far to slow boat back. If you have a large t2 bubble on the hole you should still land in it and not be so hard to get back. So its no so bad, 16-20 k away from each other is a lot better then 40k. |
Nivek Steyer
Unknown Crusade Galactic Skyfleet Empire
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 22:19:00 -
[967] - Quote
I think the idea of random spawning from a WH is a great Idea. I would also like to propose that you also consider putting in a little more chance as well. To keep things interesting in WH space with the following: 1. If you jump a fleet all at the same time say greater than x ships or within 10 seconds you have x chance of collapsing the WH and being spit back out to the starting system. 2. WH that spawn in WH space say to null sec don't appear to in null sec as well until someone jumps in. 3. Level the playing field since there is such a push for PvP and fun in WH then lets get rid of what stops PvP fun in Null sec. Local Chat. Been talked about for years time to kill the free intel . Would be great for WH's to be able to jump on Null sec as well! The same way they can jump us we can jump them. Or simply put a 5 to 10 min delay in the appearance of the pilots name to local. 4. Make the Rorqual useful in WH's. Develop a mod for it that: Can close a WH in one cycle of the mod say a 5 min counter with a skill that lowers the time limit by 30 seconds per level. Rorqual cant move while the mod is up, and if dies then the WH stays etc.
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Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
28
|
Posted - 2014.08.14 22:41:00 -
[968] - Quote
Nivek Steyer wrote:I think the idea of random spawning from a WH is a great Idea. I would also like to propose that you also consider putting in a little more chance as well. To keep things interesting in WH space with the following: ..neat stuff... 4. Make the Rorqual useful in WH's. Develop a mod for it that: Can close a WH in one cycle of the mod say a 5 min counter with a skill that lowers the time limit by 30 seconds per level. Rorqual cant move while the mod is up, and if dies then the WH stays etc.
Now THIS would make a Rorqual worth leaving the bubble for. Best idea for helping the Rorq I've seen yet, that does not make it OP/invulnerable. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
226
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 00:15:00 -
[969] - Quote
Mindo Junde wrote:Doggy Dogwoofwoof wrote:New Devblog incoming, Stream said changes to this are coming. he also prattled on at length about how this will make WH's better with 'new' tactics. believe what you want but as was said much earlier this is happening, whether its a good idea or not. btw that twitch thread is truly hopeless pride then. what a ******* joke. typical out of touch dev.
whats the point of having a csm rep for whs if stuff like this happens.
gl with your new wh then if this goes through, I know I won't be coming back. will see what happens first, getting bored of null or star citizen comes out. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1561
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 01:09:00 -
[970] - Quote
To carry on from where I left off.
The mechanism is sound to increase risk for farmers. But the changes to K162's spawning only when jumped is more effective than this. There's so many times we roll our O477 and warp to it (average 6 AU or 30s), then have to wait for our mates to warp in (because, bookmarks take forever to update) and jump in to see...wrecks and cores on scan, the elusive bear gone to ground. or drones dumped at a grav site with a can, the hulks and orca gone back to POS for some hardcore AFK PVP.
That will cause more risk for farmers. That one thing.
This doesn't cause risk for farmers, unless the farmers catch the inbound hole and/or spot you on d-scan as you jump in to gank them, and then probe it down and decide to roll. They won't decide to roll, they'll decide to go AFK PVp you, with Mjolnir Boredom Fury Level 5, or Logout tank.
The problem, as said, is that the distances your high-mass, high-value ships spawn from the wormhole (or indeed, eg, a 100MN HIC or throwaway 100MN Stabber) is excessive.
If you take the median spawn distance and make it; Frigate - 5km +/- 2.5 km Cruiser - 6km +/- 3 km BS - 8km +/- 4 km Orca - 10km +/- 5 km Capital - 15km +/- 7.5 km ...where the deviation is on a bell curve centred on the median (expressed as 2 sigma) then, 50% of the time Frigates spawn outside jump range and 50% inside jump range. Cruisers spawn outside jump range 65% of the time. BS spawn outside jump range 90% of the time and orcas spawn outside jump range 97.5% of the time. Capitals, always.
But at the other extreme, only 2.5% of the time do capitals spawn 22.5km away. Only 2.5% of the time do Orcas spawn 15km away, or BS 12km away or cruisers 9km or frigates 7.5km (like they do now).
That's a set of numbers which I feel is acceptable. Why?
For a start, worst case scenario, your BS and Orca are still out of unheated, non-faction scram range of a ship at zero on the hole. The BS can maybe MJD off if it is fast. The Orca is still within heated web range, which allows far easier webbing off by non-Rapier support.
As for the poor capitals, most of the time they are within web range. They are also, coincidentally, within capital rep range unless you are in a Nid and want to swap capacitor. But if you fly a Nid, you are used to being unable to do that, so you'll deal with it. Best case scenario, you are only 2.5km from safety.
And yes, half the distance from what is first proposed makes it faster. But if the difference in a 7 hour rageroll is 50 vs 80, then we are hardly arguing about anything except efficiency, which is irrelevant. What matters is safety, and being within cap rep range allows a modicum of safety if you go balls deep. You are unlikely to be in refit range, but that's fine. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Ziraili Onzo
Yggdrasil Woodchoppers Noir. Mercenary Group
3
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Posted - 2014.08.15 06:39:00 -
[971] - Quote
Just a quick bug-report i guess from doing some more testing with the new dump on SiSi today (after the 2nd static to C4 etc was added):
Seems to me like theres a minor error with the distance on the spawn mechanics. First time a frigate jumps into a hole, it spawns at 10-12k from the hole. This is ofc. not the k162 side, so i assume this is a error on the first jump cause when the "hole is born".
Then when jumping back, the frigate spawns at correct ranges according to the information given. (4-7km) If you wait out the polarized and then go back in, you again spawn in the correct range. So it really does only happen on the very first jump on all various holes (static or wandering) i have tested so far. |
Pavel Sohaj
Anoikis Exploration
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 07:16:00 -
[972] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Lenroc Elisav wrote:OK I understand your position but it seem that you advocate for less populated C5/C6 because all the small corps that are now making a living there will be moving out or sparsely play. It also seems that you think they'll "downgrade" and go live in C4s or smaller but with the increase connectivity for C4s and new frig holes I doubt you are correct but, hey, that's opinion vs opinion so.... On a side note I really don't give a rats arse about the player driven economy (I know others do and I agree is a matter of play-style) but if CCP continues to remove people from space by diminishing the incentives to be there I'm afraid they'll end up with spreadsheets in station instead of spreadsheets in space.
And finally Winthorp do you really think this change is the best way to increase the risk of rolling worm-holes? I bet people will find ways to roll with BS's effectively (if they can be bothered too) and we are going to be stuck with incapacitated offensive capitals (yes Nestors I know) and with a weakness against null alliances that will be better suited to control wh-null worm-holes and will always have the numbers advantage. I have always said that i don't agree with the numbers given for this change but yes i do feel this change is a step in the right direction and CCP themselves have proven recently the will to make changes after the fact if things havn't worked out so well so i trust that they will jump in if things get dire as you all think will, i do not think it will come to that. Sadly you need to consider the player economy though as that is probably 90% of why people come to WH space to begin with, but the state of farming in C5/6 space really needs a shakeup i hope you can agree on that part. (p.S i really don't think the majority will move out of C5/6 space at all, farmers will always adapt) Now if that does get shaken up then you will be left with PVP entities in C5/6 space or at least PVP entities that do use their ISK to fund PVP within WH space and not the state we are in now where the great majority of the farmers use our space to fund their Null/LS PVP, that i can't abide with and that is why i support these changes. I also don't think C4's will be a wasteland like the hysteria suggests, sure will it take a little longer to roll their unwanted connections? Yes and they will be at a touch more risk when doing so and may lose an extra BS or two but it really wont be the end of the world as they are calling it. CCP has already stated they are looking at the ISK income of WH sites so there will be extra incentive to take the extra risk that is given. No change CCP can make will suit everyone 100% but man they needed to start somewhere because it isnt at all ideal the way it is.
Maybe so, although given what ive talked about with peeps, not many are really uber excited. We for one have already moved half our stuff from our C4 which gets new C5 static, so C4 to C4 and C5. no thanks.
Its still the same, more risk, same isk. Its kind of pointless to stay there, much better off in C5 or C2, safety and isk wise.
|
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
102
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 14:31:00 -
[973] - Quote
Im wondering what the point of this thread is anyway. Everyone besides Winthorp hates this change, and people made that very clear. Were now at almost 50 pages, the old thread had 30 before it got locked.
CCP then goes on camera on twitch and pretty much state that everyone is excited about the big changes to WHs and they gonna do it anyway. Id just like to know Fozzy what kind of feedback you want about this? Shall we go shooting a monument before you get it?
you can like or not like the change, but it is going to be a fact that player activity will decline in WH space, because it WILL be more of a pain to roll and no small corp gonna roll for a new exit when they connect to a big group that can just blob them. Which means the PvPers get less gank targets.
how hard is that to understand really? |
Ktersida Nyn'Amanyn
Querschlaeger
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 14:53:00 -
[974] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:Im wondering what the point of this thread is anyway. Everyone besides Winthorp hates this change, and people made that very clear. Were now at almost 50 pages, the old thread had 30 before it got locked.
CCP then goes on camera on twitch and pretty much state that everyone is excited about the big changes to WHs and they gonna do it anyway. Id just like to know Fozzy what kind of feedback you want about this? Shall we go shooting a monument before you get it?
you can like or not like the change, but it is going to be a fact that player activity will decline in WH space, because it WILL be more of a pain to roll and no small corp gonna roll for a new exit when they connect to a big group that can just blob them. Which means the PvPers get less gank targets.
how hard is that to understand really?
Winthorp is not the only one who likes the change.
As longer as i think about the more i like it. Acitvity in w-space sucks anyway. My 5 corp mates and i scan down nearly 50 to 100 wh systems a evening and in 2 to 3 systems we find something to shoot at. With the imcoming changes i estimate that we'll shoot nearly the same. Maybe little more maybe a little bit less.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
406
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 15:33:00 -
[975] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:To carry on from where I left off.
The mechanism is sound to increase risk for farmers. But the changes to K162's spawning only when jumped is more effective than this. There's so many times we roll our O477 and warp to it (average 6 AU or 30s), then have to wait for our mates to warp in (because, bookmarks take forever to update) and jump in to see...wrecks and cores on scan, the elusive bear gone to ground. or drones dumped at a grav site with a can, the hulks and orca gone back to POS for some hardcore AFK PVP.
That will cause more risk for farmers. That one thing.
This doesn't cause risk for farmers, unless the farmers catch the inbound hole and/or spot you on d-scan as you jump in to gank them, and then probe it down and decide to roll. They won't decide to roll, they'll decide to go AFK PVp you, with Mjolnir Boredom Fury Level 5, or Logout tank.
The problem, as said, is that the distances your high-mass, high-value ships spawn from the wormhole (or indeed, eg, a 100MN HIC or throwaway 100MN Stabber) is excessive.
If you take the median spawn distance and make it; Frigate - 5km +/- 2.5 km Cruiser - 6km +/- 3 km BS - 8km +/- 4 km Orca - 10km +/- 5 km Capital - 15km +/- 7.5 km ...where the deviation is on a bell curve centred on the median (expressed as 2 sigma) then, 50% of the time Frigates spawn outside jump range and 50% inside jump range. Cruisers spawn outside jump range 65% of the time. BS spawn outside jump range 90% of the time and orcas spawn outside jump range 97.5% of the time. Capitals, always.
But at the other extreme, only 2.5% of the time do capitals spawn 22.5km away. Only 2.5% of the time do Orcas spawn 15km away, or BS 12km away or cruisers 9km or frigates 7.5km (like they do now).
That's a set of numbers which I feel is acceptable. Why?
For a start, worst case scenario, your BS and Orca are still out of unheated, non-faction scram range of a ship at zero on the hole. The BS can maybe MJD off if it is fast. The Orca is still within heated web range, which allows far easier webbing off by non-Rapier support.
As for the poor capitals, most of the time they are within web range. They are also, coincidentally, within capital rep range unless you are in a Nid and want to swap capacitor. But if you fly a Nid, you are used to being unable to do that, so you'll deal with it. Best case scenario, you are only 2.5km from safety.
And yes, half the distance from what is first proposed makes it faster. But if the difference in a 7 hour rageroll is 50 vs 80, then we are hardly arguing about anything except efficiency, which is irrelevant. What matters is safety, and being within cap rep range allows a modicum of safety if you go balls deep. You are unlikely to be in refit range, but that's fine.
Let me walk you through rolling a wh, so you can see where the risk currently is.
1. Pick your ships to roll with (no risk in this, you're not yet committed to do anything) 2. Warp your rolling ships to the wh (ok, now you are totally committed w/ whatever rolling ships you like - you can't unwarp) 3. You land on the wh (still totally committed - anyone w/ a bubble or hic can engage you and you have to fight) 4. You jump in to mass down the wh (still totally committed as in 3 above) 5. You jump back further massing down the wh or closing it (still totally committed as in 3 above) 6. You warp back to you pos (phew once in warp it's over)
Currently the rolling folks put their rolling ships totally 100% at risk as soon as they get in warp at step 2. From step 2 through step 5 their risk is 100% of the ships that are in warp. The mass range thing doesn't increase their risk - they are already committed.
I'll say it again for emphasis. If you watch someone roll a wh safely it's because you allowed it. At any point from step 2 through 5 you have the option to jump the wh and force a fight. That's force a fight. They don't have a choice. The choice to fight or is soley in the hands of the non rolling party. They have the option to engage or not engage. There is currently no safe way to roll any wh except for maybe a hs wh. (which is fine - wh space has to interface w/ concord at least one place in eve)
Mechanic wise what does this change do? It allows the ganking party the luxury of picking off out of jump range rolling ships from the safety of their own wh. It doesn't add risk to rolling fleets it takes away risk from ganking fleets. So if you're in a large wh corp you can bring enough assets to the wh to remove all risk involved w/ anyone jumping into your wh. (it's the equivalent of a cyno jammer in null - no one can directly bring in enough wooosh to endanger your system)
This doesn't add risk to rolling at all, it just allows larger corps to claim rolling ships w/ pretty much zero risk. This is a deal breaker for anyone that can do basic pvp math. Can it be overcome w/ any number of counters - sure. My point is why is CCP handing rolling pinatas over to the home system owners in the name of pvp? It doesn't make sense (unless you're a large wh entity that doesn't like the risk or extra effort of going all in against a rolling party)
There are some corps out there that go all in on rollers often and get good fights out of it. Why not push pvp toward that in lieu of the duck shoots this change creates? |
Teoshen
Transcendent Innovations Incorporated The.Spanish.Inquisition
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 16:25:00 -
[976] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys, thanks for the feedback so far. Special thanks to those who are providing lots of text about the reasoning behind your feelings, as those are the most useful posts.
We're continuing to pour over all the feedback and considering multiple options for adjustments to the plan based on what we're hearing. We probably won't have something new to announce for a couple days but we want you to know that we are listening and working hard behind the scenes in the meantime.
Your post implied you were going to follow up with the community regarding the mass changes, and I, for one, would really like to see that. Whatever the answer is, I just want to know what we're in for. There are strong feelings on both sides, and I think we all deserve to know where you are at on this. |
SwagYolo420
Vertical Rebirth
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 17:17:00 -
[977] - Quote
Someone asked for ragerolling numbers, which I can provide.
Just my friend and I collapsing (5 toons used - sabre, scanner and 3 collapsing ships because vertical), we got an average of 15 holes rolled per hour. This is without having ships to web us into warp, with normal fits (no hyperspatials), no ascendancy implants and the rolling ships landing at 6000m from the wormhole and having to slowboat over there. The time spent closing a hole and the time waiting on a new hole to spawn were about the same.
With the change which is happening, you would have to use a malediction to make an on-grid warpin on the other side of the wormhole, and webbing your capital into warp to your malediction, then warping the webbing ship over there and web again back to the wormhole. With a normal setup, this adds at least 90 seconds per hole to collapsing it, and you need 2 more toons to do it (interceptor, webber). Thus you would be able to roll 11 holes/hour at best with a normal setup after the patch. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 18:08:00 -
[978] - Quote
For those of you still concerned with this belief that the only way to find content will be by rolling your static, you may want to read this which I came across
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.com/2014/08/setting-roots-on-fire-spoilers.html
or go do your own scanning on SISI now that the changes are in place. From these early reports, it appears that, as suspected, wormhole space is becoming significantly more organically connected even without additional connections from residents actually opening their statics (since those connections aren't likely to be opened on SISI).
If rolling your hole for protection or cap combat on the wormhole are the only activities really impacted by this change, then I have no major problem with it. If you can't support your rolling ships, then I really cannot muster much |
SwagYolo420
Vertical Rebirth
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 18:27:00 -
[979] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:
If rolling your hole for protection or cap combat on the wormhole are the only activities really impacted by this change, then I have no major problem with it. If you can't support your rolling ships, then I really cannot muster much sympathy
I'm not asking for your sympathy - I want proper game design. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 18:35:00 -
[980] - Quote
SwagYolo420 wrote:Obil Que wrote:
If rolling your hole for protection or cap combat on the wormhole are the only activities really impacted by this change, then I have no major problem with it. If you can't support your rolling ships, then I really cannot muster much sympathy
I'm not asking for your sympathy - I want proper game design.
And what about a WH spewing ships out at increasing distances by mass is "bad design". All I've heard so far is complaints about the mechanic because
1) It will increase rage rolling times 2) It will increase risk for those rolling holes for a) Protection b) Isolation 3) It will increase risk for those bringing cap ships to fight on a WH by dispersing fleets rendering many tactics unusable.
The first is addressed by the increased organic connections. Yes, you may still want to roll your hole but the chains you connect to should be sufficiently long that rage rolling as a necessity is a thing of the past. The second, don't care. Too bad, so sad. Protect your rolling ships, use different rolling ships, or you aren't sufficiently prepared to roll. The last is a valid concern that I hope can be addressed through modifications of the mechanic and not by scrapping it altogether. But I leave that discussion to those cap pilots and fleet commanders that know that style of combat far more than I would. |
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
43
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 21:41:00 -
[981] - Quote
Weren't frig holes supposed to be w-w only? ??? a frig hole to null, are you kidding me? Now that's too much, Ccp!!! |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
43
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 21:43:00 -
[982] - Quote
Also, direct statics from C4 to kspace? Is it ok? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1026
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 22:56:00 -
[983] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:SwagYolo420 wrote:Obil Que wrote:
If rolling your hole for protection or cap combat on the wormhole are the only activities really impacted by this change, then I have no major problem with it. If you can't support your rolling ships, then I really cannot muster much sympathy
I'm not asking for your sympathy - I want proper game design. And what about a WH spewing ships out at increasing distances by mass is "bad design". All I've heard so far is complaints about the mechanic because 1) It will increase rage rolling times 2) It will increase risk for those rolling holes for a) Protection b) Isolation 3) It will increase risk for those bringing cap ships to fight on a WH by dispersing fleets rendering many tactics unusable. The first is addressed by the increased organic connections. Yes, you may still want to roll your hole but the chains you connect to should be sufficiently long that rage rolling as a necessity is a thing of the past. The second, don't care. Too bad, so sad. Protect your rolling ships, use different rolling ships, or you aren't sufficiently prepared to roll. The last is a valid concern that I hope can be addressed through modifications of the mechanic and not by scrapping it altogether. But I leave that discussion to those cap pilots and fleet commanders that know that style of combat far more than I would.
With respect, experienced and knowledgeable experts in wormhole mechanics, leaders and members or large, small, and medium corporations have all spent their time and effort explaining in detail, exactly the effects, exactly the consequences of the change, and why it is a bad unsalvegable idea.
Now you may feel that condensing it into a few short bullet points, and giving your opinion, exibits wisdom and clarity.
Sorry it does not.
Your "too bad so sad" comment and singular failiure to understand the reasons put clearly by those who DO know, epitomises the reason why people who do not understand the mechanics of wormhole space and are unwilling to learn make singuarly bad suggestions and should not be expected to evaluate decisions that affect others.
Pray to BOB that we do not decide the future of kS. That is best left to those who know it and live in it. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
36
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 23:41:00 -
[984] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:CCP this is directed to you.
Ok this thread has reached it's natural conclusion. We have heard from Large wormhole corporations, medium wormhole corporations, small corporations and the consistent overwhelming conclusion is that this change is completely without merit, harms all wormholers either in the short or long term and is universally despised.
We have also heard from people who have little or no understanding of the mechanics, or are from null blocks who resent wormhole life and can see it is a mechanism for starting to make it nullsec lite, actively trying to portray wormholers as weak ineffectual entities who are afraid of change, working the meta if you would rather see it that way.
There is no possible way to dress this change up with tweaks or polishing. The core idea is bad for the long term survival of wormholes.
That is the matter in the simplest clearest terms, people who are acknowledged experts in this matter have given clear detailed discourse as to the reasons why, there is actually nothing more that can be added to that, it is a comprehensive rejection of this change rationally and clearly presented to you.
You have the information you required, the responsibility is yours. Quoted for emphasis. 25 pages and counting is enough. Make your move.
|
Winthorp
2560
|
Posted - 2014.08.15 23:44:00 -
[985] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:
25 pages and counting is enough. Make your move.
CCP made their move, its actually your turn now. |
Adarnof
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 01:09:00 -
[986] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:CCP made their move, its actually your turn now.
Knight to C3.
Oh the pun. My sides.
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
36
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 01:15:00 -
[987] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Kirasten wrote:
25 pages and counting is enough. Make your move.
CCP made their move, its actually your turn now.
Did they post something I missed? All I have seen is speculation over what people think the meaning is behind very sparse replies from ccp. |
Winthorp
2561
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 01:21:00 -
[988] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Winthorp wrote:Kirasten wrote:
25 pages and counting is enough. Make your move.
CCP made their move, its actually your turn now. Did they post something I missed? All I have seen is speculation over what people think the meaning is behind very sparse replies from ccp.
No actually, CCP have listened to years of discussions and ideas/feedback and have made their move with Hyperion so it is your move now with what you do and then if the changes don't work out so well they will make further changes.
People that keep whining about the changes and they need to not be made need to realise CCP have spent dev time on this, they have had some serious thought about it and will implement these changes and see how they play out. I expect they will change a few of the spawn numbers downwards but they won't scrap these changes. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
36
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 01:33:00 -
[989] - Quote
Then I guess we will see. |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
147
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 06:53:00 -
[990] - Quote
Sometihng has changed on sisi. My orca is landing 6-7 k off the wormhole instead of the 13k it landed off earlier.
edit: and then it went 12k off again hehe. Ignore this comment ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
43
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 08:15:00 -
[991] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Then I guess we will see.
Ewww Avril Lavigne |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1030
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 09:20:00 -
[992] - Quote
calaretu wrote:Sometihng has changed on sisi. My orca is landing 6-7 k off the wormhole instead of the 13k it landed off earlier.
edit: and then it went 12k off again hehe. Ignore this comment
Oh wonderful! Even better, we all love the chance of being fed as a sacrifice to the random number generator don't we?
There is NO place for blind luck in a wormhole, the single defining feature that makes life here possible, is that there are logical, consistent, repeatable mechanics and physics.
That is what has enabled us to create an exciting, thriving community in such complicated space. We learn the difficult and obscure mechanics and we overcome.
You cannot EVER overcome luck, you are either the beneficiary or the victim of the day!
Where is the challenge in that!
What satisfaction can be had when you are thrown a sacrifice, due to chance, not to your skills or tactics? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3671
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 12:41:00 -
[993] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:No actually, CCP have listened to years of discussions and ideas/feedback and have made their move with Hyperion so it is your move now with what you do and then if the changes don't work out so well they will make further changes.
People that keep whining about the changes and they need to not be made need to realise CCP have spent dev time on this, they have had some serious thought about it and will implement these changes and see how they play out. I expect they will change a few of the spawn numbers downwards but they won't scrap these changes. years of listening? please, show me one single place anywhere that anyone who lives/lived in WH space requested this change. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Ab'del Abu
Atlantis Ascendant
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 13:01:00 -
[994] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Winthorp wrote:No actually, CCP have listened to years of discussions and ideas/feedback and have made their move with Hyperion so it is your move now with what you do and then if the changes don't work out so well they will make further changes.
People that keep whining about the changes and they need to not be made need to realise CCP have spent dev time on this, they have had some serious thought about it and will implement these changes and see how they play out. I expect they will change a few of the spawn numbers downwards but they won't scrap these changes. years of listening? please, show me one single place anywhere that anyone who lives/lived in WH space requested this change.
There actually was a thread about spawn distance a few months ago. But it was about enabling kiting, not nerfing rolling. |
Leo DHD
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 17:43:00 -
[995] - Quote
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Chloe Cartier
Faceless Men
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 18:58:00 -
[996] - Quote
It ainGÇÖt broke, stop fixing it. Please please please, don't screw up this mechanic and send this idea to the bin. Thank you CCP Fozzie. |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11116
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 21:53:00 -
[997] - Quote
Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.
We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).
The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.
This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
126
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:09:00 -
[998] - Quote
This is better than it was. However, personally I believe many of the same problems are still present. The only real difference is the problems are chance based instead of persistent. There is still a large chance that caps will land outside of refit range which will still make it harder on small groups jumping in with capitals, there is also still a very large chance they will land far outside of jump range further reducing the use of carriers going triage on jump in.
I feel the problems can be negated and with the reasoning still being preserved by shifting to a timer-based change rather than a distance-based. It achieves the same goal and removes a lot of the problems people have with this change, and there is still a lot of risk with jumping. |
Xer Jin
Ancient Anomaly and Artifacts Recovery Explorators
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:28:00 -
[999] - Quote
Dear foz I know you have good intentions with this new mecanic but I'd just like to say the time for "nice talk" is over. This spawn mecanic is **** And instead of scraping it you go and add anew variable to it You are screwing over the small corps that live in wh space I hope you get trapped in wh space with a head full of implants with an insufficient clone |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc Brave Collective
1252
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:29:00 -
[1000] - Quote
Well that's obviously an attempt to pursue with the current plan while trying to gather some sort of conscience . I'd say that things are less worse, but its nowhere near good or acceptable.
In addition to the common complaints about this very bad mecanic, there is another thing that bothers me A LOT:
EVE is supposed to be about your skillpoints and the knowledge you have as a player. This knowledge is supposed to help you make better decisions and adapt to the situation ahead.
Just like for the hacking minigame, there is no way to predict randomness. Just like when I click on the next node with no element to help me weight my decision (during a hack), I will click jump and I could appear either at jump range with my orca, or at death range. Without having no way of influencing that. This is so bad...
Now I can understand the issue with capitals vanishing away in the blink of an eye in the current gameplay. But thats a small issue (big WH fights usually involve lots of capital jumped-in in advance, not one capital that goes through a wormhole. We are not in Clarion Call 3).
Fixing a small issue this way is like killing a BUG with a frikin' CHAINSAW!! You'll do more harm to your surroundings than good.
Why would a defensless orca be too OP if it was able to jump back immediately after a jump? There is still the session change timer, the polarity, align time, bubble vulnerability... Risks are already high enough!
And even combat-capable capitals, in situation where very few people would engage them anyway, how would this change be any significant except for making chain collapsing even more a pain than it is currently. (Have you ever chain collapsed? My corp did, just once -for two days-, and it was already HELL. I don't even dare to imagine with the added travel time and risk.)
Solution: (Because there is one) You want to add an element of risk in combat situations? Fine. Make the distance bound to the weapons timer. Take the table you made in the devblog, every ship spawns at the minimum distance if no weapon timer. Then if there is a weapon timer, it appears at the max distance in proportion of the seconds remaining on the weapon timer (60sec = maximum, 30sec = between min and max, etc...).
Not only does it take away the dumb dumb dumb randomness that should not exist in EVE, allowing people to make informed choices, but it also gives an element of risk that is bound to fight situations. Without making even more a pain from what it is today, to chain-collapse.
That's not perfect, but that's as close as it can be to a good solution in my opinion.
Thanks for reading. Signature Tanking - Best Tanking. Beware the french guy!
|
|
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
103
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:41:00 -
[1001] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.
This change remains terrible. Distance based purely on mass does not promote more activity or new interesting activity. Post change the most viable meta is T3 blobs and up engaging with caps is much more difficult. We're losing the ability to combat refit, small groups are losing the ability to roll, and we're not modifying the meta at all to promote kiting or anything else. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3676
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 23:46:00 -
[1002] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making. congratulations on NOT fixing the issue. the problem isnt with the spawn distance, the problem is with the concept of spawning outside od jump range: we dont want it. if you havnt figured it out yet then nothing new will make any difference so im done with this thread. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Traiori
Cause For Concern Easily Excited
188
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 00:05:00 -
[1003] - Quote
I said it earlier in this thread and I'll say it again. Whether it's 40km, 20km or 15km:
- It's still faster to warp off and on the hole with anything larger than a battleship - It's still creating issues with refitting ranges for capitals - It's still creating dispersal problems for T3 blobs (granting another advantage to homeside) - Orcas will still die, quite quickly, when they land outside return jump range. Though, of course, they were probably going to get caught anyway - It still means we can't take capitals out into nullsec, or multiple capitals into enemy systems
In short, your proposed "fix" to the solution does nothing to fix any of the issues that we have with your proposed change.
If you want to fix the issue, reverse the calculation and as per my suggestion on page one with so much attention that I'm still getting notifications 10 days later, change it so that ships spawn inversely proportional to mass and directly proportional to max speed (after modifiers such as "does this ship have a MWD on"). This means that heavy ships land closer and that lighter ships land further, and could perhaps bring about the birth of variation in the meta. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1036
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 01:05:00 -
[1004] - Quote
FOZZIE, I tried to put this across on the town hall but did a bad job of trying to explain a complex idea in a few words.
The issue is not that Eve does not have elements of luck, It is that with this mechanic It is a matter of whether one jumps through and by pure luck lands in an unfortunate or fortunate part of the sphere of exit.
With this change There is nothing one can do to influence the chance of you living or dying, It is pure luck. You have removed the opportunity for players to influence their environment.
Now it can be argued that that is exactly what happens with a known space gate.
And it is the freedom of these random chances to live or die that is and has always been a major part of the mechanics of wormhole space.
Closing and rolling holes currently is NOT risk free, skill and knowledge and experience can reduce that risk however.
But now. Nothing one can do. A bad landing due to luck and it is all over.
Is it surprising that when skill ability and tactics are no help other than for the choice to jump or not, and one is a slave to just blind luck that people are somewhat upset?
The corollary to this is that it achieves the diametric opposite to your stated goals, and just takes people out of space and into their pos shields or log off waiting for better "luck" the next time they play.
For large corps it will be more of a pain, the risk and chance can be mitigated with numbers and support ships.
For medium and small corps, you have just made them victims to chance, and they will not take those odds. Reduce the odds, and it is still just a misplaced and ineffective concept that improves nothing, and will fail in its stated goals.
This is NOT about players resisting change, It is about players advising you that you are implementing a BAD change.
Give us a mechanic that encourages fights on or off the hole, where skill tactics and training influence the outcome, and we will love you for it as that would be GOOD change. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Suev Raylap
Dropbears Anonymous Brave Collective
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 01:28:00 -
[1005] - Quote
As this change is rather controversial and has major potential to change j-space life wouldn't it make sense to postpone this change for a month to continue to consider the implications and give time for the wormhole community to continue to offer feedback.
You moved to a monthly release schedule. A major benefit of which is that it allows you to postpone issues like this while still releasing them soon.
Postponing a change for a month to make sure it is a good change makes sense to me. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
92
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 01:30:00 -
[1006] - Quote
I actually like what was discussed when CCP left the field:
Make the distance and direction you spawn at the other side of a WH based on speed and direction you enter the WH.
This opens a broad spectrum of new tactics and gives the players control over their actions. |
Thatt Guy
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
80
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 02:08:00 -
[1007] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We don't do design by vote...
Source: https://soundcloud.com/atomycx/wormhole-townhall-with-ccp-fozzie @ 23:23
*This is NOT a rumor, speculation, or a slight to a CCP Employee, but a direct quote, with source for proof.
So basically, our feedback doesn't matter to Fozzie or CCP.
/done Haters gonna hate, Trolls gonna troll. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
43
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 02:39:00 -
[1008] - Quote
It was going to be the best expansion in years If not for this tiny detail :~~\ |
Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 03:54:00 -
[1009] - Quote
This does not solve the problem that the initial proposal created: that it makes us spend more time doing tedious things. Our ability to create content and enjoy this game is directly impacted by this change.
EVE players always adapt to unfun things that stand between them and fun because we have to. It does not mean that such adaptation is good. It means we want to play the game. More barriers to fun mean more burned out people. More burned out people means less active corporations. Less active corporations in a sparsely populated area of space that revolves around PvP and hunting people doing PvE means less content for everyone.
The K162 change, small as you may perceive it to be, is enough to change w-space significantly. Something that small changes the game we play entirely. This change is overkill, especially with the K162 change in the works. It discourages us from wanting to go out and engage with our environment. If we don't want to engage with the environment, we won't take the risks associated with doing so. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
1156
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 04:01:00 -
[1010] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making. Good changes Fozzie. Stick to your guns
Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
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Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
216
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 07:20:00 -
[1011] - Quote
There's a ton of stuff I can say/repeat against this change. But why bother. It's clear by feedback you mean the buzzword version of it. The one that goes in the same sentence as agile responsive company procedures. So here's something else for you to ignore.
I'm a chef.
I don't cook by vote either, but by the same token you better don't put something on the menu you know 90 percent of your customers won't eat/order.
You can claim the moral high ground of design, that's admirable. However by doing that you also need to show us you have a master plan with actual design. Gimmicky hokey things like frigate wormholes and scrambling jump mechanics around is the video game equivalent of giving out half off coupons.
Give us real meaningful content, if your going to basically ignore our feedback fine. Just don't be surprised at backlash when you ask for it then basically ignore it. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Winthorp
2609
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 07:34:00 -
[1012] - Quote
Hatshepsut IV wrote:
I'm a chef.
I don't cook by vote either, but by the same token you better don't put something on the menu you know 90 percent of your customers won't eat/order.
.
So as a chef you never put new things on the menu just because a few rich old and bitter neckbeards say it will taste ****?
Maybe you would be a better chef if like CCP you tried out a few new dishes and see if the other less vocal people end up really loving them, you never know it could be a real hit and if its not you can always go back to the same boring meal you have been dishing up for years. |
Lemonades
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
64
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 07:42:00 -
[1013] - Quote
I think CCP not seriously responding to 100+ pages in threads is very, very bad and also might be a bad precursor for the future. I also would like to thank Fozzie for his time, giving up his night, although most the things he responded were not in-depth or were weak promises for future stuff that we can never recall him on. If CCP was serious there would be more than one dev there.
The only thing the mass changes will make sure is less rolling, more possing up so there will be less liquid isk in the wallets of wormhole people because they simply won't do stuff. This is good for ccp my friends, because, we will pay more and plex our accounts less. Otherwise I have no idea why ccl would implement these changes. |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
216
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 07:46:00 -
[1014] - Quote
It's been far more then just a few bitter rich neck beards against these changes.
Is the analogy I used perfect? No. None are but the valid point stands.
If you want a further comparison. No fine dining restaurant of any caliber worth eating ever puts anything on the menu without exhaustive testing and refinement/iteration. You don't strive to uphold high standards by just randomly hoping for awesome.
These changes by any standard haven't even really been on test as a whole long enough to even do that. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
216
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 07:48:00 -
[1015] - Quote
Silly tablet double posting. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Charles37
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 08:06:00 -
[1016] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.
I want to start off by saying that the way that you are communicating this change is extremely upsetting, not to mention underhanded. You posted these new changes 10 minutes before the WH Townhall meeting where it was very obvious that this would be one of the main topics of discussion. I just rechecked the thread for dev posts, and there was nothing in here for almost 10 days, no updates, no indications of what you're considering, just silence. Springing these changes at this time, essentially during the WH Townhall, makes it very difficult for us to evaluate the effect that the new numbers have. It didn't give us any time to test it or gain a better understanding of the new mechanic that's being piled on top of this already new mechanic (collapse % randomness modulation). I certainly hope I'm mistaken here, but it certainly feels that with this change in particular the dev team is purposefully dragging their feet, dragging it out as long as possible while the release date for the Hyperion patch draws closer and closer, until eventually you can just say "Sorry, it's too close to the launch of the patch, we already finalized all the changes."
These new numbers don't change or address the enormous list of concerns that have already been raised in this thread. Traiori has stated the majority of these concerns very succinctly and clearly on page 1 for you to read, but these concerns are still unaddressed and undiscussed by devs here.
This is going to kill a lot of options for WH corporations without giving us anything in return. I'm still waiting to see an explanation of how this is supposed to benefit WH space overall. From the tone in the dev blog and the very sparse postings here, it sounds like this is change for the sake of making changes. If there's some information to the contrary, I would gladly read (or listen) to it. |
Julia Rusakova
Area51.net
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 08:16:00 -
[1017] - Quote
Rather than write a wall of text...
I vote to kill this so called new feature period.
/end
|
GDNebu
Hard Knocks Inc.
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 08:23:00 -
[1018] - Quote
Fozzie, first of all I'd like to thank you for coming to the WH Townhall yesterday. You gave us your views and reasonings why you want these changes and I'd like to answer to some of the things I heard. Some of this applies to the new frigate wormholes and the K162 changes as well.
Correct me if Im wrong, but you said that you want wormholers to rely more on their chain connection to find their content instead of "ragerolling" for it, and also that you want wormholes to be more random and unpredictable. I haven't read all of the thread but people have already given a number of arguments against this change and some for it, but I want to look at it from a slightly different viewpoint.
Different groups and corps have come into wormhole space and settled in the system that best suits their needs. Small, industrial oriented groups have settled in the lower classes of wormholes with high or low sec statics. PVE oriented groups are mostly in the higher class systems with a static that allows them to also do PVE in their static. Then there's the PVP groups. They'll choose a system with a low-sec static if they like low-sec PVP, a low-class WH static if they like roaming WHs in smaller numbers, or a high-class WH static if they want to catch capital escalation site runners. For example I think it was Bronya Boga yesterday who said they live in a C5-C2 because they enjoy the smaller group PVP in lower-class WHs, but they also want to play with the higher-class guys once in a while when they get rolled into. All of these groups have found the WH that suits their needs, but they also have access to everything else W-space offers by scanning their chain further down the static or by random WHs that connect to and from their home system. Now if they don't find the content they want in their static or the chain, they'll want to roll. But if they deem it too unsafe to roll, whats going to happen? They're going to POS up and twiddle their thumbs or play a different game until another entity rolls the hole or it dies naturally, which can take up to 24 hours.
Obviously this doesnt really effect the larger groups, I doubt much is going to change for HK except maybe adding a rapier pilot to our hole rolling team to web the capital off. But consider something else. Let's not kid ourselves, EVE is sometimes a harsh mistress. We endure a lot to do what we do to live in WHs. Luckily I haven't been here before corp bookmarks or before POS fuel blocks were introduced, but I can imagine how tedious it was. People still managed, but things just took a bit longer. You keep asking us for small things that will improve our quality of life (and thats not just wormholes, thats for EVE as a whole). The UI and some gameplay elements are changing and improving to allow us do the stuff we want to do, which is fun, faster, and not have to bother with something like finding out exactly how much m3 I need to keep my POS running for another month. Ofcourse, there's people who might enjoy this aspect, I even heard there are people who enjoy scanning. We can copy bookmarks faster after Hyperion, and maybe save 10 seconds doing that, yay. But at the same time, we are going to be spending 5 more minutes rolling our connection. I know Im complaining about something that might seem like a mere nuisance to some people but its about the principle and I hope you know what I mean with that.
Now I know that ultimately you want to create more content and a less risk-free environment for wormholers and people in this thread have given a lot of arguments why this is the bad way to go about this, and some arguments for the change. But mostly against it. I'll give you one more argument against. Hole rolling as it is right now isnt risk-free. HK has caught a number of capitals that were rolling their hole, simply by going all in and crossjumping them into their own home system. One of our pilots even solo killed an Orca using a Stiletto after the hole closed behind them. It took him over 30 minutes and all the residents could do was warp two cov ops to try and get the Orca out, but they both died as well. Because groups feel confident that they can roll in safety, they get caught. If they dont think they can roll safely, they wont, and they wont get caught. Also, we dont really WANT to catch hole-rollers. We WANT them to be safe with all their connections closed, so they can run their sites and we can drop on their 4+ capitals instead of killing just 1 on the hole. But if they have an incoming WH they cant close, like the new frigate WH, what you are basically telling them is that they can go and do something different than playing EVE for the next 16 hours, and you are also reducing the chance of us catching them running sites (ergo, less content). Now this has all already been said before in this thread and elsewhere so I'll just stop here. In summary, from my own point of view:
Mass-based spawn distance: NO K162 changes: great, especially after the last update Frigate WHs: yes, but at the same time no (create more content but at the same time destroy some other) Bookmarks: hell yeah Effects Rebalance: I see where you are going with it, should be good with some minor tweaks. Second Static C4: Don't live in one, but having one in your chain is a major PITA, so yes to those. |
Winthorp
2609
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 09:36:00 -
[1019] - Quote
So after listening to the town hall section that was regarding mass/distance i heard a lot of people claim some absurd **** like they kill 3-4 caps hole rolling a week... (Your KB's tells me that's not so true..........)
There has been so many other people mention that they constantly catch caps rolling and TBH i think its bullshit, sure i have killed caps rolling and a cap gank is easy to set up but it really isn't anywhere near what you claim.
Please post your SUCCESSIVE hole rolling cap KM's to prove me wrong. (Don't bother posting me the KM you got 3 weeks ago then 4 months prior to that...) |
Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
140
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 10:00:00 -
[1020] - Quote
So Fozzie is it your intention to ruin any Capital based PvP? Because while you are making rolling harder no one other than Winthorp actually thinks this change may bring anything good to wormholes. Attackers jumping capitals into a a well set up defensive group are going to get f*****. Im sorry Mr Dread you landed way outside refit distance and you have to use long range low damage ammo to hit your targets. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
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Cedeves XVII
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 11:20:00 -
[1021] - Quote
After listening to the town hall i am disappointed how little attention was given to combat use of caps. This change while a huge pain in the ass for rage rolling, ect does not eliminate that. What i am most worried about is the now impossible use of combat caps when attacking through a hole, committing a triage or a blap dread is now a suicidal option unless you hold the field, you will never be able to have a tactical retreat of a capital in WH fights and this will simply prevent their usage as a force multiplier and only be used when you already have the force advantage to just prevent a few of your own losses. Beyond not being able to refit caps that appears outside of jump back range will ever get back to that hole. Now your only option for reps is to have enough people to bring a huge number of guardians, you don't have that many people apparently CCP is telling you to bad go cry in a corner this game where the only thing that matters is how many friends you have.
Capital ships can also no longer be used to split a larger group by closing a hole half way through their fleet. of course this also makes it near impossible to trap people inside your hole to kill them, it leaves an escape route open for sub-cap only fleets.
And now onto something less combat usage of caps focused.
CCP says they want to encourage longer chains the problem is anyone who wants longer chains will already get them. I tend to play in very late US TZ and half the time i call to roll our static is not because it has ended but it has instead gotten to the point of being unnavigable, i cant go hunting when my reinforcements are 20 jumps out, and maybe if this create much wider chains i wouldn't have this problem, but after a whole lot of experience in how our chains work i seriously don't expect that to change. Groups that want to keep their chains very short will still do so, they have not been able to just sit on short chains by fully exploring chains, those chains are rare 9 times our of 10 the reason you have a short chain is because you have not fully explored it, and when you do have one of those short chains you should be able to get rid of it as fast as possible, as it simply is not fun.
One more thing about the way the chains work (at least to a C6 resident). If our static is active we wont make a chain through it, so when we do make our changes our rolling fleet will be safe, the only time our rolling fleet will be under threat (and there fore we wont use it) is when we come up against a group we simply cannot fight. Now when we get unlucky and open into a group we simply cannot fight with out effectively committing suicide we are stuck with them in the chain we cannot go find someone our own size (for the time) to fight. And the only solution to that is to blue ball them and ship spin or go play another game.
We say that this change will help large groups that can support rolling with caps, but here is the thing every corp has a bad TZ but few corps are completely empty in those times. If i want to roll because we have a bad chain in our low TZ i am at just as much risk as a small corp trying to roll. And i cant speak for others but if i don't have a high chance of keeping the dread alive through this endeavor no matter how much thought, preparation, experience and anything else i can to, if it is all up to the fact that CCP decided my ship should die, my solution is going to be to go play another game, because i love when i lose a ship because i was stupid, but losing a ship despite perfect strategy by me is not enjoyable.
CCP have said that they are listening and that they care about the reasons people dislike a change more than the number and Fozzie equated it to ship balancing, here is the thing no one lives in a ship in the same way they lived in an area of space, the backlash is not equatable.
It is getting to the point that i agree with something my CEO said in the closing of the Town Hall, what is the point any more, why do we tell CCP how they are breaking the game, why do we try to make this game good, enjoyable, playable and FUN, when CCP just responds by pretending to listen and then telling us all they are going to do what they want. Well CCP i would like to know what would make you remove this change, what possible response could we give to you other that leaving in droves that would be a good enough reason to remove this change. Because to me it seems like this has come to the point of you making these changes just to spite us.
To close i would like to reiterate something i said before, thank you CCP i have been meaning to catch up on other games, and not being able to safely roll away from a unfightable threat will allow me to do that.
TL;DR CCP is doing massive damage to WH space and then pretending to listen with one hand and then just ignoring everything we say with the excuse its not the number of complaints its the quality of them. |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
282
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 12:03:00 -
[1022] - Quote
Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this. |
Ettig Grunar
Grumpy Bastards No Response
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 12:08:00 -
[1023] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.
......
This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making. Good changes Fozzie. Stick to your guns
/strongly disagree
/very, very sad
also in the soundcloud interview the answer, when he was asked how/who came actually up with the suggestion to implement this, was not convincing at all imo. he thought some player suggested it , and then it was somehow brought up to them by a CSM member .. and so on and so on ... i really wonder how "such" and "idea" can end up in the real game when there are many, many good arguements by the players base against this change ... and imo no good explaination for this changes.
spawing on the other side based to the speed ability of the ship is a way better idea imo. also spawning based on jump direction or something similar as posted above...
element of luck and a "random distance generator" in a wh, especially regarding caps(!), is really really no good atl all !!!!111
|
Winthorp
2610
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 12:16:00 -
[1024] - Quote
jonnykefka wrote:Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this.
Can i have your stuff?
Seriously though will that mean only 2 other people left active in ADHOC? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1039
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 12:37:00 -
[1025] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:jonnykefka wrote:Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this. Can i have your stuff? Seriously though will that mean only 2 other people left active in ADHOC?
Tell you what, rather than ask, why not let the new wormhole "luck generator because it is the new funness"Gäó system decide if you get their stuff or they get yours? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 12:38:00 -
[1026] - Quote
Ettig Grunar wrote:also in the soundcloud interview the answer, when he was asked how/who came actually up with the suggestion to implement this, was not convincing at all imo. he thought some player suggested it , and then it was somehow brought up to them by a CSM member .. and so on and so on ... i really wonder how "such" and "idea" can end up in the real game when there are many, many good arguements by the players base against this change ... and imo no good explaination for this changes.
That was Chitsa Jason, who is now living in lo-sec now with EE. Makes sense.
Also dont forget folk he called all Wormholers, all of us, dumb.
I'm sure I've said before( or somebody else ) if this was null-sec and the changes would have been made to jumping via cyno's, Jump bridges and Titain Bridges, That wouls have been dropped so far as the rage would have been so hard, it seems to me were are the guinea pigs for null.
Also as stated in the townhall, who does the changes REALLY benifit, as it sure as hell aint us. twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1039
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 12:49:00 -
[1027] - Quote
I am really beginning to wonder if people in CCP actually realise, what makes thing work and what actually is the reason why this game has stuck around.
Lets take wormholes, they had ideas of what they wanted them to be, and decided that if the mechanics were complex enough, that people would puzzle a little of it out, and that would be fun and challenging.
Well they were certainly right here, and people puzzled tested, tried and died and tried again. That was fun, that made wormhole space great.
Now we have arrived here, sure we would like some new tests, challenges, and opportunities.
What do we get? Quite.
Would any one ever have bothered to spend the years some have, puzzling things out today? All that effort to discover that underlying the new features being implemented was not complex mechanics and obscure clues, but luck?
Wow would you feel stupid wasting all that effort.
So we will not,
It will be "oh a new feature, just put up with it, no reason to try to puzzle it out"
This new feature is like putting a single nail, in a single cake, in a single factory and telling people about it. No one ever bothers to eat cake from that supplier again. In attempting to juggle the figures All you are doing here fozzie is changing the size of the nail.
If you cannot understand that all the effort in wormhole space to date is now wasted, as there are no secrets to discover after this, we are just meant to be or to consume content. This is not a treasure hunt, it is a random chance of being given a prize or slapped with a wet kipper.
Did you really not realise that this was one of your unique selling points, that you have just casually thrown away? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
144
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 13:12:00 -
[1028] - Quote
Welp, guess I'm not moving into a WH then.
Shame, I was looking forward to it. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 13:22:00 -
[1029] - Quote
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:
Also dont forget folk he called all Wormholers, all of us, dumb.
I was there and that was purely a phrase taken out of context, funny at the time but does more harm than good by being brought up here in the context you are giving it. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
786
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 13:28:00 -
[1030] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making. Random number generator is bad, and you should feel bad.
Wormholes are basically and fundamentally different than star gates and should not function like star gates. Star gates dump people out at x distance and gameplay evolved from that. Wormholes dump people out at x distance and gameplay evolved from that. Making Wormholes more like stargates messes with fundamental mechanics of how W-Space functions. This is making it function more like K space.
I don't like it, so have moved my stuff out to k space. I'll see how this change plays out.
Foz - WSpace wasn't broke.
*THIS* change is breaking a fundamental aspect of the WH game.
Is that clear enough? Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
715
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 13:56:00 -
[1031] - Quote
Design/development by vote would be utterly ******** and I don't think taking Fozzie's comment(s) out of context is particularly helpful here.
At the same ignoring that largely this is a deeply unpopular feature even with people who haven't asked for it but would benefit isn't a good way to go about developing a game either. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1042
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 14:03:00 -
[1032] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Design/development by vote would be utterly ******** and I don't think taking Fozzie's comment(s) out of context is particularly helpful here.
At the same ignoring that largely this is a deeply unpopular feature even with people who haven't asked for it but would benefit isn't a good way to go about developing a game either.
What is more disturbing is that we are questioning the entire design ethos of CCP.
Is eve a game that rewards the expenditure of effort, rewards skilful play, and where losses are real but we decide how we can effect the likelihood of reward or failure.
Or is it one where we just get on the treadmill of creation and destruction, and all we are is content or consumers of content. And all we do can be undone in moments, with the toss of a coin somewhere in a server in London?
If they have lost their way, and are not willing to listen to the people pointing desperately at the signposts showing where that leads, then there really is nothing left to say. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
715
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 14:24:00 -
[1033] - Quote
Not disagreeing with what you say but I think to a degree its the fact that this specific feature has lost its way - it seems Chitsa has unfortunately legitimatised the views of a small number of players who aren't really bringing anything to wormhole space and looking for cheap easy ganks, mixed in with the fact that a similar feature could potentially be useful for mixing up the fleet meta that has often got stuck into certain themes due to the requirements of not being a suicide composition if you jump into another fleet on a wormhole mixed in with that there are some valid reasons in why the feature was proposed.
I mean I'm dead against the feature personally and I've enough accounts to collapse a wh "safely" using sub-capitals/cheap ships if it came to it and part of an alliance that is both big enough to defend collapsing capitals against many of the people we encounter but also made up of people who for the larger part aren't afraid to put capitals on the line even when it means going all in. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
104
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 14:43:00 -
[1034] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:
we f..k up Wh space
congratulations on NOT fixing the issue. the problem isnt with the spawn distance, the problem is with the concept of spawning outside of jump range: we dont want it. if you havnt figured it out yet then nothing new will make any difference so im done with this thread. PS: i mean, if youre going to push through changes with such obvious and strong negative feedback anyway, why even bother putting up a feedback thread? its actually insulting
This exactly. I cant think of a smart post that a) expresses my feelings on this .....and b) would not get me banned
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 16:24:00 -
[1035] - Quote
Xer Jin wrote:Dear foz I know you have good intentions with this new mecanic but I'd just like to say the time for "nice talk" is over. This spawn mecanic is **** And instead of scraping it you go and add anew variable to it You are screwing over the small corps that live in wh space I hope you get trapped in wh space with a head full of implants with an insufficient clone QFT |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 16:36:00 -
[1036] - Quote
How about increase spawn chance of out going holes to null sec from higher class wormholes?
Maybe it would feel less as CCP running the bidding of null sec.
|
BeanBagKing
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
297
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 17:36:00 -
[1037] - Quote
Still consider this a terrible idea, that is all. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2099
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 19:27:00 -
[1038] - Quote
jonnykefka wrote:Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this.
Can I have it? You know what.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Richard McTrader
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 23:02:00 -
[1039] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: The issue is not that Eve does not have elements of luck, It is that with this mechanic It is a matter of whether one jumps through and by pure luck lands in an unfortunate or fortunate part of the sphere of exit.
With this change There is nothing one can do to influence the chance of you living or dying, It is pure luck. You have removed the opportunity for players to influence their environment.
Now it can be argued that that is exactly what happens with a known space gate.
And it is the freedom of these random chances to live or die that is and has always been a major part of the mechanics of wormhole space.
Closing and rolling holes currently is NOT risk free, skill and knowledge and experience can reduce that risk however.
But now. Nothing one can do. A bad landing due to luck and it is all over.
Is it surprising that when skill ability and tactics are no help other than for the choice to jump or not, and one is a slave to just blind luck that people are somewhat upset?
The corollary to this is that it achieves the diametric opposite to your stated goals, and just takes people out of space and into their pos shields or log off waiting for better "luck" the next time they play.
For large corps it will be more of a pain, the risk and chance can be mitigated with numbers and support ships.
For medium and small corps, you have just made them victims to chance, and they will not take those odds. Reduce the odds, and it is still just a misplaced and ineffective concept that improves nothing, and will fail in its stated goals.
This is NOT about players resisting change, It is about players advising you that you are implementing a BAD change.
Give us a mechanic that encourages fights on or off the hole, where skill tactics and training influence the outcome, and we will love you for it as that would be GOOD change.
Please, please put this idea aside and reach out to the community for how this could be achieved, most of us wish for greater opportunities for skilful combat, even if we lose horribly. Even If it slips Hyperion, it is not a loss, we will have dodged a bullet, and will be grateful for a good replacement. Theres lots of good and interesting stuff, we will not miss this.
Agreed. The mass-based spawn change is still a fundamentally bad idea. Tweaking the numbers will not make it a better idea. Luck and added tedium do not make a good game.
Please abandon this idea.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1052
|
Posted - 2014.08.17 23:17:00 -
[1040] - Quote
Richard McTrader wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: The issue is not that Eve does not have elements of luck, It is that with this mechanic It is a matter of whether one jumps through and by pure luck lands in an unfortunate or fortunate part of the sphere of exit.
With this change There is nothing one can do to influence the chance of you living or dying, It is pure luck. You have removed the opportunity for players to influence their environment.
Now it can be argued that that is exactly what happens with a known space gate.
And it is the freedom of these random chances to live or die that is and has always been a major part of the mechanics of wormhole space.
Closing and rolling holes currently is NOT risk free, skill and knowledge and experience can reduce that risk however.
But now. Nothing one can do. A bad landing due to luck and it is all over.
Is it surprising that when skill ability and tactics are no help other than for the choice to jump or not, and one is a slave to just blind luck that people are somewhat upset?
The corollary to this is that it achieves the diametric opposite to your stated goals, and just takes people out of space and into their pos shields or log off waiting for better "luck" the next time they play.
For large corps it will be more of a pain, the risk and chance can be mitigated with numbers and support ships.
For medium and small corps, you have just made them victims to chance, and they will not take those odds. Reduce the odds, and it is still just a misplaced and ineffective concept that improves nothing, and will fail in its stated goals.
This is NOT about players resisting change, It is about players advising you that you are implementing a BAD change.
Give us a mechanic that encourages fights on or off the hole, where skill tactics and training influence the outcome, and we will love you for it as that would be GOOD change.
Please, please put this idea aside and reach out to the community for how this could be achieved, most of us wish for greater opportunities for skilful combat, even if we lose horribly. Even If it slips Hyperion, it is not a loss, we will have dodged a bullet, and will be grateful for a good replacement. Theres lots of good and interesting stuff, we will not miss this.
Agreed. The mass-based spawn change is still a fundamentally bad idea. Tweaking the numbers will not make it a better idea. Luck and added tedium do not make a good game. Please abandon this idea.
It's worse than that, if all your efforts taking weeks or longer to gain a wonderful ship and fit it with care and planning, and all the training and skilling and planning, and one risks all, pitting your skill and cunning against an opponent in a committed attempt to win! One glorious moment where you show all you have strived for comes together! And you can show you have what it takes, you will be the victor! Your heart pumps, you feel alive!
And then, all that in an instant, is without meaning.
It is undone in a moment, purely due to luck. By a design based on a random action that cannot be influenced, and does not care if you live, die, or even exist..
You realise, that whatever you do is completely worthless.
Why would you feel that your efforts had meaning?
And why would one bother any more. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Irya Boone
Never Surrender.
371
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 00:02:00 -
[1041] - Quote
Don't forget that CCP still thinks that WH lifestyle= nomad so in their head you only have to jump once or Twice ( when you come back )
For them if you want to find content you have to make this
A>>B>>C>>D>>E( where the content is) and not what we do now A>>B>>A>>C>>A>>D>>A>>E so in their mind it make sense to make it difficult for US to roll for content.
We just need to make CCp understand that people LIVE in WH !! RENAME WH systems With the name of REAL Universe Stellar Name like KOI-730 etc etc It will be awesome.
GalMIl>>ALL |
Neil DeTyson Degrassetyso
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 04:54:00 -
[1042] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Winthorp wrote:jonnykefka wrote:Well this is going to make everything in w-space tedious and make combat as we know it a jumbled mess. I'm going to let my sub run out after the patch, it's not worth my limited playtime to deal with this. Can i have your stuff? Seriously though will that mean only 2 other people left active in ADHOC? Tell you what, rather than ask, why not let the new wormhole "luck generator because it is the new funness"Gäó system decide if you get their stuff or they get yours?
Space is a dangerous and scary place; good thing we all play Eve. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2100
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 05:33:00 -
[1043] - Quote
That was really painful to listen too. The verbal whining was terrible.
Props to Fozzie for sitting through all that and being professional.
BTW, next time you take a vote, don't take one in a place full of people about to get some of their entitlements taken away. A vote among ALL the eve players would matter, not one among mad wormhole dwealers.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Pallader
Maple Leafs Nation Dark Pride Alliance
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 09:00:00 -
[1044] - Quote
Quote:That was really painful to listen too. The verbal whining was terrible.
It's a pain the people for whom wormholes were home. This is the pain of people who simply leave the game forever, than to put up with wild Innovations. This dying moan of people who do not need any low or nullsec, because they were there and did not find myself. They found themselves in a wormhole, but new mechanics makes this place is too static and dull.
It is a sign that we have listened, and did everything in his own way, without solving the problem. |
T0SHI KONI
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 09:17:00 -
[1045] - Quote
This has probably been posted already but I can't find it so here it is (again?). After Fozzie left the town hall, the discussion continued and another player whose name I didn't catch proposed the idea of inverting the spew mechanics. This would still allow heavier ships to be used to roll holes but still achieve the attempt at breaking the brawling on the hole meta by shooting light kitier ships out at a fighting range. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1054
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 09:27:00 -
[1046] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:That was really painful to listen too. The verbal whining was terrible. Props to Fozzie for sitting through all that and being professional. BTW, next time you take a vote, don't take one in a place full of people about to get some of their entitlements taken away. A vote among ALL the eve players would matter, not one among mad wormhole dwealers.
Of course, your idea makes perfect sense, Lets allow everyone to vote on issues that have no relevance to them whatsoever, I mean the fact that they might know about something that affects their daily life in a way that completely alters the experience, shouldn't mean that their voice should be allowed to be heard over the noise?
Everyone should also vote in all the internal polls that the large corporations run in Nullsec too, all the elections for your higher positions? We should vote on where you go to war, what systems you occupy too.
What? You don't have votes for that? Something that affects your daily life? Wow anyone would think you are a dictatorship? Probably why you have no understanding of how functional democracy works.
Or:- damn self entitled Texans, why shouldn't I vote in their local elections, I Live in New York! I'm an AMERICAN, I should have the right to force crappy changes on anyone! If you prefer an even more ridiculous example of your thought process.
Now THAT is self entitled. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1054
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 09:36:00 -
[1047] - Quote
Pallader wrote:Quote:That was really painful to listen too. The verbal whining was terrible. It's a pain the people for whom wormholes were home. This is the pain of people who simply leave the game forever, than to put up with wild Innovations. This dying moan of people who do not need any low or nullsec, because they were there and did not find myself. They found themselves in a wormhole, but new mechanics makes this place is too static and dull. It is a sign that we have listened, and did everything in his own way, without solving the problem.
The sound you will hear is silence, the community has put forward the reasons why it is a bad change loudly, clearly, and there is no room for misunderstanding how despised this change is.
Fozzie is quite capable of understanding this.
He either chooses not to, or those above him have decided and he needs to put it in anyway, and he can only put sugar on the poison, to help it go down.
The silence you will hear, will be people giving up, giving up believing, giving up imagining, giving up trying to make a difference.
After all what's the point? If all ones efforts can be reduced to nothing, by something that does not care if you live, die, or even exist, why should we care if EVE lives, dies or even exists?
I have seen some dumb things done in my life, but rarely so spectacularly badly by educated adults. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1055
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 11:54:00 -
[1048] - Quote
T0SHI KONI wrote:This has probably been posted already but I can't find it so here it is (again?). After Fozzie left the town hall, the discussion continued and another player whose name I didn't catch proposed the idea of inverting the spew mechanics. This would still allow heavier ships to be used to roll holes but still achieve the attempt at breaking the brawling on the hole meta by shooting light kitier ships out at a fighting range.
There were attempts to offer proposals that would achieve or exceed CCP's stated goals whilst still enabling players to influence the final result, due to skill or tactics.
But leaving it to luck is just so much easier and cheaper to code i imagine. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 12:37:00 -
[1049] - Quote
^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.
CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.
Can you still roll holes? Yes. Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.
And that's the long and short of it.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1055
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 12:48:00 -
[1050] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.
CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.
Can you still roll holes? Yes. Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.
And that's the long and short of it.
Well if you do not understand the concept that suspending disbelief if a required component for game film,book, drama, and all entertainment. then not much to say is there. and that this change is a great leap in the path away from everything that made EVE different. This is not just about Hole rolling difficulty, though that has relevance.
THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE BASED ON PURE LUCK!
Do you actually understand yet?
Tell me how much you will enjoy it if your ship just happens to explode at random, because unpredictability is fun.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 12:48:00 -
[1051] - Quote
All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.
I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1055
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 12:55:00 -
[1052] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.
I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.
The difference is that the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome. this change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly.
The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience. you are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort. does that seem like engaging gameplay to you? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:06:00 -
[1053] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Obil Que wrote:All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.
I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.
The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome. This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly. The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience. You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort. Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you?
And how is that any different? With this change in place, the use of the large ship that previously would counteract the random mechanic is now affected more strongly by a second random mechanic. So you either
1) Use smaller ships (such as battleships) and get affected slightly by the random spawn mechanic and possibly, more significantly, affected by the random mass component OR 2) Use larger ships (such as your caps) and get affected strongly by the the random spawn mechanic and basically negate the random mass component
If you're going to argue that the random spawn mechanic is the death knell of EVE WH life, then I would expect the same revulsion for the random mass mechanic currently on wormholes. But I don't hear the outcry about... |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
720
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:10:00 -
[1054] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.
CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.
Can you still roll holes? Yes. Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.
And that's the long and short of it.
Sadly its not the long and short of it and a mechanic that massively reduces things to random doesn't make it wilder, less tamed in theme. I disagree slightly that it purely reduces it to random as when collapsing holes you usually make a decision about the order to collapse them in (if you have more than 1 into the system your based from) and scout any direction a threat is likely to emerge from before committing.
Carrying on a theme...
Does it make things more risky? actually a lot of the time no and when it does it tends to mostly exploit the inefficiencies of smaller corps and an enabling factor for easy ganks.
Does it make things more tedious while bringing little enhancement to the gameplay? a resounding yes
To quote verbatim a comment I saw from someone else who is has long been an active part of wormhole pvp: "I rage roll only to find pvp and for this already tedious task to take longer makes me not want to play. " and its a sentiment I've seen from many others who have long been part of making w-space what it is today and even from those relatively new to w-space. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1056
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:13:00 -
[1055] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Obil Que wrote:All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.
I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.
The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome. This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly. The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience. You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort. Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you? And how is that any different? With this change in place, the use of the large ship that previously would counteract the random mechanic is now affected more strongly by a second random mechanic. So you either 1) Use smaller ships (such as battleships) and get affected slightly by the random spawn mechanic and possibly, more significantly, affected by the random mass component OR 2) Use larger ships (such as your caps) and get affected strongly by the the random spawn mechanic and basically negate the random mass component If you're going to argue that the random spawn mechanic is the death knell of EVE WH life, then I would expect the same revulsion for the random mass mechanic currently on wormholes. But I don't hear the outcry about...
There is a massive difference between utilising random mechanics to influence an effect, and using random mechanics to determine the survivability of a vessel.
if you cannot see that, then you soon will after something that you worked for gets taken from you just due to luck, a bad break, sorry, start again.. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Baumi
Rise of Cerberus Cerberus Unleashed
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:22:00 -
[1056] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.
The risk part is (at least for me) not the problem. The main thing is needing more time to roll.
Right now, if we try ragerolling, we roll around 6 hours until we find someone. With this change, this time would increase even more.
Of course, we can go and scan a chain. We are used to this, until a few weeks ago, we lived in a C5/C2 where that was our standard tactics. However, doing that, you won't catch anyone ratting. If you start ratting, you close all incoming holes first. The only way to kill these people is to roll into them. Thus, this means that PvEing will get even safer.
Ofc there are people to stupid to close, but that is quite rare.
Anyway, we killed a lot of closing caps. Noone can tell me that closing right now is not dangerous. If you have multiple incomings and you close the wrong one first, you might loose a capital (in your own hole, that is). *Maybe* it will become a little bit more dangerous now, but with decent scouting and rapiers etc there should be no surpises. Additionally, most WH Groups are very honourable, if one side decides to stand down, most will tell the "enemy" and let them close in peace (I know, this is not how it works in different parts of EvE and might be hard to believe).
However, I think most of us are not here to kill single closing capitals but for epic fights with multiple Capitals and Shinies dieing.
Since this change discourages bringing capitals on the field, the chances for these fights will be even more diminished.
Tl;dr Dafuq CCP? This change: * makes PvE safer * discourages Capital PvP * makes it harder to find *decent* PvP all in trade for a *small* chance to kill closing capitals
Instead of making more kills possible this does the opposite! |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:27:00 -
[1057] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Obil Que wrote:All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.
I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.
The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome. This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly. The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience. You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort. Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you? And how is that any different? With this change in place, the use of the large ship that previously would counteract the random mechanic is now affected more strongly by a second random mechanic. So you either 1) Use smaller ships (such as battleships) and get affected slightly by the random spawn mechanic and possibly, more significantly, affected by the random mass component OR 2) Use larger ships (such as your caps) and get affected strongly by the the random spawn mechanic and basically negate the random mass component If you're going to argue that the random spawn mechanic is the death knell of EVE WH life, then I would expect the same revulsion for the random mass mechanic currently on wormholes. But I don't hear the outcry about... There is a massive difference between utilising random mechanics to influence the persistence of an effect, and using random mechanics to determine the survivability of a vessel. if you cannot see that, then you soon will after something that you worked for gets taken from you just due to luck, a bad break, sorry, start again.. in another couple of months you might be able to try hole roulette again.
Both affect the survival of the ship in question. Flying a battleship or HIC through a hostile chain or NS/LS k-space connections when a hole collapses behind you is not a risk-free endeavor |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1056
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:27:00 -
[1058] - Quote
Baumi wrote:Obil Que wrote:All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor. The risk part is (at least for me) not the problem. The main thing is needing more time to roll. Right now, if we try ragerolling, we roll around 6 hours until we find someone. With this change, this time would increase even more. Of course, we can go and scan a chain. We are used to this, until a few weeks ago, we lived in a C5/C2 where that was our standard tactics. However, doing that, you won't catch anyone ratting. If you start ratting, you close all incoming holes first. The only way to kill these people is to roll into them. Thus, this means that PvEing will get even safer. Ofc there are people to stupid to close, but that is quite rare. Anyway, we killed a lot of closing caps. Noone can tell me that closing right now is not dangerous. If you have multiple incomings and you close the wrong one first, you might loose a capital (in your own hole, that is). *Maybe* it will become a little bit more dangerous now, but with decent scouting and rapiers etc there should be no surpises. Additionally, most WH Groups are very honourable, if one side decides to stand down, most will tell the "enemy" and let them close in peace (I know, this is not how it works in different parts of EvE and might be hard to believe). However, I think most of us are not here to kill single closing capitals but for epic fights with multiple Capitals and Shinies dieing. Since this change discourages bringing capitals on the field, the chances for these fights will be even more diminished. Tl;dr Dafuq CCP? This change: * makes PvE safer * discourages Capital PvP * makes it harder to find *decent* PvP all in trade for a *small* chance to kill closing capitals Instead of making more kills possible this does the opposite!
All this is true too, so we all know the disadvantages of this change, what are its advantages? I still cannot see one.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1056
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:28:00 -
[1059] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Obil Que wrote:All this talk of luck. I guess we have all forgotten that wormhole mass is currently *random* so that when it comes to closing smaller holes with smaller ships (ie: not an Orca) you can either get caught on the wrong side without a return hole or you have to adjust and use other ships like a HIC to finish the job which still can leave you on the wrong side if the random mass doesn't work in your favor.
I guess this isn't a concern for those WHers using huge ships to slam a hole shut with enough extra mass to negate any randomness to the hole. Welcome to our life. Your large mass, hole slamming ships are now at risk to the random.
The difference is that currently the only random variable is the component that effects Mass. you can make decisions to affect the outcome. This change is that if you jump through, you are going to end up at a completely random place, you may or may not have support, you may or may not be able to get back to the hole, you may or may not drop into the middle of the hostile fleet and die horribly. The important thing is that you only have one choice. to jump or not to jump. Once you jump you are just along for the ride and live or die according to luck. there is nothing you can do to change that decision or amend it through skills, training, or experience. You are just rolling a dice and betting everything, and if you roll well, you gain nothing, but if you roll wrong, you can lose weeks or months of effort. Does that seem like engaging gameplay to you? And how is that any different? With this change in place, the use of the large ship that previously would counteract the random mechanic is now affected more strongly by a second random mechanic. So you either 1) Use smaller ships (such as battleships) and get affected slightly by the random spawn mechanic and possibly, more significantly, affected by the random mass component OR 2) Use larger ships (such as your caps) and get affected strongly by the the random spawn mechanic and basically negate the random mass component If you're going to argue that the random spawn mechanic is the death knell of EVE WH life, then I would expect the same revulsion for the random mass mechanic currently on wormholes. But I don't hear the outcry about... There is a massive difference between utilising random mechanics to influence the persistence of an effect, and using random mechanics to determine the survivability of a vessel. if you cannot see that, then you soon will after something that you worked for gets taken from you just due to luck, a bad break, sorry, start again.. in another couple of months you might be able to try hole roulette again. Both affect the survival of the ship in question. Flying a battleship or HIC through a hostile chain or NS/LS k-space connections when a hole collapses behind you is not a risk-free endeavor
Absolutely It never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way.
So now your choices when confronted with a crit or any hole, are only one. Don't try to close it.
Hardly encourages gameplay. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kalazaar Barin
GANOR Deep Space Explorers GANOR INC.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:36:00 -
[1060] - Quote
From the updated dev blog (http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/):
Quote:After continued discussion with the community we have made some adjustments from the original plan. We are reducing the base range significantly for large ships, and changing the random element to the jump distance. Now the maximum deviation from the base distance will increase for jumping through wormholes that have had significant amounts of mass pass through them. The deviation will be a maximum of 2km for fresh wormholes, and will increase to as much as 5km (in either direction) for a wormhole that is about to collapse. There will also be a lower bound of 2.5km set to prevent the wormhole from decloaking ships.
Reduction of the base range for larger ships
Generally, I appreciate this. This reduces the amount of extra time needed for ragerolling after the patch. Now Orcas and Dreads have a reasonably possibility to be able to slowboat back into jumprange (empty systems only ofc). However, all the other concerns regarding WH fights stay the same (refitting, optimals for Dreads, Orcas of small corps getting caught etc).
Deviation of the distance now depended on remaining mass of the WH
I don't understand the reasoning behind this. Let's say the heaviest class of ship I use for closing a specific hole is an Orca. If I choose to send it through at the very beginning, it will appear between 8.1 and 12.1km away from the hole (fresh hole = deviation range is [-2km,+2km], base distance is 10.1km). So in best case, the distance to jump range is 3.1km, worst case 7.1km. Other way: Orca is the very last ship to jump through (I mean the first trip, not the one back that clsoes the hole). The base range stays the same, only the max. deviation is higher: now just below [-5km,+5km]. That makes the way back to jump range to be at best 0.1km, worst case 10.1km. So, the choice of order of my closing ships is just a matter of how much I want to "gamble" with the outcome of my precious Orca. If I send it through early on, I will be more certain of the distance. But the average on both ways is the same! I see no new "strategy" here. Risk-averse FC's will use heavy ships at the beginning, risk-friendly ones will use them at the end....(again, only considering the time it take to close a wh into an empty sytem). Here we have the discussing of the influence of RNG on gameplay quality again, I suppose.
Would appreciate it if someone gives me some insight on this.
Cheers |
|
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:43:00 -
[1061] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Absolutely I never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way.
And again, not to belabor the point, but why is *this* randomness worse than the current randomness that using smaller ships to close holes has to endure? I completely understand that this has additional impact regarding capital combat on wormholes. Capital combat, however, has the distinction of being able to be addressed to some degree through tactics. I do not doubt the ingenuity of EVE players, especially those involved in such a high level gameplay to adjust to this new environment. But strictly in regards to hole rolling, there is zero randomness involved when using Orca/Caps to close a hole today. I do not feel bad that this change introduces randomness into that equation putting it in the same category as using Battleships to roll a hole. I'd perhaps be more on board to rage against this additonal random component if there was equal rage for the current random mass mechanic.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1060
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 13:54:00 -
[1062] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Absolutely I never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way. And again, not to belabor the point, but why is *this* randomness worse than the current randomness that using smaller ships to close holes has to endure? I completely understand that this has additional impact regarding capital combat on wormholes. Capital combat, however, has the distinction of being able to be addressed to some degree through tactics. I do not doubt the ingenuity of EVE players, especially those involved in such a high level gameplay to adjust to this new environment. But strictly in regards to hole rolling, there is zero randomness involved when using Orca/Caps to close a hole today. I do not feel bad that this change introduces randomness into that equation putting it in the same category as using Battleships to roll a hole. I'd perhaps be more on board to rage against this additonal random component if there was equal rage for the current random mass mechanic. further back in the tread are long discourses as to why other than highly limited uses of the RNG are extremely destructive to immersion and motivation in game play.
In it"s simplest form If one EVER uses the method, to determine win or loss then, one forces people to realise that their efforts, are secondary to the design of the game, and they can never "beat the odds". Basically one has introduces aversion therapy to cure people of game play.
Your example DOES use the RNG but the loss will be removed from the event, and your skills can reverse your bad fortune.
Whilst this, the Luck component Is DIRECTLY connected to the event of your loss. strongly reinforcing the message that you were stupid to believe you could ever have any long term effect or influence on the game. Bad luck, suck it up, see you in after a couple of months on the grinding treadmill to try again.
Could one think of more destructive behaviour by a games company?
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 14:00:00 -
[1063] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Absolutely I never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way. And again, not to belabor the point, but why is *this* randomness worse than the current randomness that using smaller ships to close holes has to endure? I completely understand that this has additional impact regarding capital combat on wormholes. Capital combat, however, has the distinction of being able to be addressed to some degree through tactics. I do not doubt the ingenuity of EVE players, especially those involved in such a high level gameplay to adjust to this new environment. But strictly in regards to hole rolling, there is zero randomness involved when using Orca/Caps to close a hole today. I do not feel bad that this change introduces randomness into that equation putting it in the same category as using Battleships to roll a hole. I'd perhaps be more on board to rage against this additonal random component if there was equal rage for the current random mass mechanic. further back in the tread are long discourses as to why other than highly limited uses of the RNG are extremely destructive to immersion and motivation in game play. In it"s simplest form If one EVER uses the method, to determine win or loss then, one forces people to realise that their efforts, are secondary to the design of the game, and they can never "beat the odds". Basically one has introduces aversion therapy to cure people of game play. Your example DOES use the RNG but the loss will be removed from the event, and your skills can reverse your bad fortune. Whilst this, the Luck component Is DIRECTLY connected to the event of your loss. strongly reinforcing the message that you were stupid to believe you could ever have any long term effect or influence on the game. Bad luck, suck it up, see you in after a couple of months on the grinding treadmill to try again. Could one think of more destructive behaviour by a games company?
I don't buy that. Spawning X distance from a hole does not equate to instant loss. Your ship does not instantly self destruct. It is *at risk* from other players.
You can *do* something to mitigate that risk.
If you aren't prepared to do those things such as support your cap with additional pilots, then I would venture that your decision to jump an unsupported cap into a random mechanic was a bad one. I would argue the same that a battleship pilot ill prepared for a flight back through a hostile chain or NS/LS k-space made the same poor decision. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1060
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 14:18:00 -
[1064] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Absolutely I never was a risk free endeavour, but this is a whole new level of Luck dumping you in harms way. And again, not to belabor the point, but why is *this* randomness worse than the current randomness that using smaller ships to close holes has to endure? I completely understand that this has additional impact regarding capital combat on wormholes. Capital combat, however, has the distinction of being able to be addressed to some degree through tactics. I do not doubt the ingenuity of EVE players, especially those involved in such a high level gameplay to adjust to this new environment. But strictly in regards to hole rolling, there is zero randomness involved when using Orca/Caps to close a hole today. I do not feel bad that this change introduces randomness into that equation putting it in the same category as using Battleships to roll a hole. I'd perhaps be more on board to rage against this additonal random component if there was equal rage for the current random mass mechanic. further back in the tread are long discourses as to why other than highly limited uses of the RNG are extremely destructive to immersion and motivation in game play. In it"s simplest form If one EVER uses the method, to determine win or loss then, one forces people to realise that their efforts, are secondary to the design of the game, and they can never "beat the odds". Basically one has introduces aversion therapy to cure people of game play. Your example DOES use the RNG but the loss will be removed from the event, and your skills can reverse your bad fortune. Whilst this, the Luck component Is DIRECTLY connected to the event of your loss. strongly reinforcing the message that you were stupid to believe you could ever have any long term effect or influence on the game. Bad luck, suck it up, see you in after a couple of months on the grinding treadmill to try again. Could one think of more destructive behaviour by a games company? I don't buy that. Spawning X distance from a hole does not equate to instant loss. Your ship does not instantly self destruct. It is *at risk* from other players. You can *do* something to mitigate that risk. If you aren't prepared to do those things such as support your cap with additional pilots, then I would venture that your decision to jump an unsupported cap into a random mechanic was a bad one. I would argue the same that a battleship pilot ill prepared for a flight back through a hostile chain or NS/LS k-space made the same poor decision.
you need to think in more than two dimensions, remember you will come out at a location within a sphere, and assistance will spawn somewhere else in that sphere, and depending on where you spawn, when jumping into a hostile fleet, it is PURELY luck as to whether you live or die. Because do not forget, one will be unable to jump back or jump away if you are webbed and scrammed. Good luck burning back to the hole with a triple webbed Orca.
So you jump and play Russian roulette, or do not play the odds. and Pos up until the hole closes on it's own.
This affects Orcas Just as much as Capitals, and there is just not the support in lower class holes.
oh or one can jump endless battleships through instead under fire, What fun. great choices There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Agrippa Arkaral
Vertical Rebirth
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 14:33:00 -
[1065] - Quote
Posting to check kill count |
Tarikan
Dominion Enterprise Psychosomatic.
22
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 14:44:00 -
[1066] - Quote
What I got while I was at the townhall as a general consensus was that Fozzie understood our feedback, but the change is going in one way or another, and only after significant data is gathered will CCP determine whether they should revert, or change the changes happening in Hyperion.
I personally do not like the action being taken here, but if CCP want to play that way then they likely will lose some subscriptions. I'll stay in Wormholes, I'll continue having fun with my friends...but this change isn't going to be a good one in my opinion. I and possibly others within the Wormhole community will decide to almost never use Capital offensively or to roll, in the end i forsee less fights happening, but I can be wrong.
In any case, let us see where this goes, maybe CCP will realize the error of their ways, or maybe us wormholers will see the reason why Fozzie is so adamant about this change.
Overall the wormhole changes are awesome, I really like this release, but this mass-spawn change still sticks out like a sore thumb to me. The effect-rebalance is another discussion, but Cat Vars will be the new Black Hole, in terms of people living there at least.
I have my trust in Corbexx to continue to represent the wormhole community, hopefully something can be done sooner rather than later. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 14:52:00 -
[1067] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:you need to think in more than two dimensions, remember you will come out at a location within a sphere, and assistance will spawn somewhere else in that sphere, and depending on where you spawn, when jumping into a hostile fleet, it is PURELY luck as to whether you live or die. Because do not forget, one will be unable to jump back or jump away if you are webbed and scrammed. Good luck burning back to the hole with a triple webbed Orca. But the conclusion is pre ordained isn't it? So you jump and play Russian roulette, or do not play the odds. and Pos up until the hole closes on it's own. This affects Orcas Just as much as Capitals, and there is just not the support in lower class holes. oh or one can jump endless battleships through instead under fire, What fun. great choices
I get it. Cap combat on wormholes is significantly impacted. It is, without a doubt to me, a specific intention to promote more subcap combat. Just look at the changes in total. Frigate holes, longer and more connected wormhole chains, massive risk to capitals jumping through wormholes. Is it better in the long run? I don't know, I guess that remains to be seen, but I have little doubt there is intent to strongly encourage people to use smaller ships more frequently as well as deal with the organically created holes and chains vs. opening/closing them ourselves. If that makes you POS up, oh well, that's your game. I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1063
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 14:57:00 -
[1068] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:you need to think in more than two dimensions, remember you will come out at a location within a sphere, and assistance will spawn somewhere else in that sphere, and depending on where you spawn, when jumping into a hostile fleet, it is PURELY luck as to whether you live or die. Because do not forget, one will be unable to jump back or jump away if you are webbed and scrammed. Good luck burning back to the hole with a triple webbed Orca. But the conclusion is pre ordained isn't it? So you jump and play Russian roulette, or do not play the odds. and Pos up until the hole closes on it's own. This affects Orcas Just as much as Capitals, and there is just not the support in lower class holes. oh or one can jump endless battleships through instead under fire, What fun. great choices I get it. Cap combat on wormholes is significantly impacted. It is, without a doubt to me, a specific intention to promote more subcap combat. Just look at the changes in total. Frigate holes, longer and more connected wormhole chains, massive risk to capitals jumping through wormholes. Is it better in the long run? I don't know, I guess that remains to be seen, but I have little doubt there is intent to strongly encourage people to use smaller ships more frequently as well as deal with the organically created holes and chains vs. opening/closing them ourselves. If that makes you POS up, oh well, that's your game. I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship.
Not my game, I want stuff to shoot, this is just going to make it less likely. For oh so many reasons. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
46
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 15:19:00 -
[1069] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making. I like this post.. It tells us a few different details..
It tells us that Fozzie doesn't have any WH experience to talk about. It tells us that Fozzie can't manage to read feedback from what must be considered the experts on w-space. It tells us that Fozzie is unable to come up with any good game-designs to meet their goals and is therefore irrelevant as a game designer and asset for CCP and its customers.
If you believe that a dread sitting on a WH is, as you say "complete safety" then how long will it be before Titans and supers are stuck in space for 5 minuts after jumping? I mean, they are completely safe as it is now right, they can just simply warp to their POS?
Your logic is worse than what I read from random NS'ers and Highsec carebears, your suggestion is utterly ******** and you fail to even recognize the danger in having a 9 billion ships floating in space for everyone to shoot..
You are completely ignoring the fact that EVE is a multiplayer game and that your safety is dictated by your enemy. I can't count the amount of times I have followed a rolling capital into its home to kill it. I wonder if he considered himselv being completely safe before or after he was in his pod in Amarr? If you can't comprehend anything as simple as that, what the **** are you doing suggesting changes in the first place, and why the **** did anyone hire you as a game designer? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1065
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 15:29:00 -
[1070] - Quote
Steven Hackett wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making. I like this post.. It tells us a few different details.. It tells us that Fozzie doesn't have any WH experience to talk about. It tells us that Fozzie can't manage to read feedback from what must be considered the experts on w-space. It tells us that Fozzie is unable to come up with any good game-designs to meet their goals and is therefore irrelevant as a game designer and asset for CCP and its customers. If you believe that a dread sitting on a WH is, as you say "complete safety" then how long will it be before Titans and supers are stuck in space for 5 minuts after jumping? I mean, they are completely safe as it is now right, they can just simply warp to their POS? Your logic is worse than what I read from random NS'ers and Highsec carebears, your suggestion is utterly ******** and you fail to even recognize the danger in having a 9 billion ships floating in space for everyone to shoot.. You are completely ignoring the fact that EVE is a multiplayer game and that your safety is dictated by your enemy. I can't count the amount of times I have followed a rolling capital into its home to kill it. I wonder if he considered himselv being completely safe before or after he was in his pod in Amarr? If you can't comprehend anything as simple as that, what the **** are you doing suggesting changes in the first place, and why the **** did anyone hire you as a game designer?
A little hard, but the sentiments regarding the validity of the idea are a echo of the general opinion. remember that CCP is a company with employees senior to Fozzie who are in a position of greater authority. I find it hard to believe that he would not realise what a clusterfuck this is. But if not, well what more can be said. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
47
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 15:46:00 -
[1071] - Quote
I wrote a post here about how Fozzie is shitting on the community, repeating mistakes etc..
But all I rly have to say is: Fozzie, please go read Hilmars apology, then come back and explain to us why you believe Hilmar was wrong and what the new plan for CCP is. |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
770
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 16:13:00 -
[1072] - Quote
Glad to see the line is still being held on this important issue, despite the vocal minority posting in this thread. It reinforces that you're able to make the tough decisions in spite of a panic-stricken, emotionally-charged wall of feedback. This candor will be necessary in the months ahead. This post was crafted by a member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 16:25:00 -
[1073] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.
CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.
Can you still roll holes? Yes. Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.
And that's the long and short of it.
Well if you do not understand the concept that suspending disbelief if a required component for game film,book, drama, and all entertainment implementation, then not much to say to you is there. and that this change is a great leap in the path away from everything that made EVE different. This is not just about Hole rolling difficulty, though that has relevance. THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE BASED ON PURE LUCK! Do you actually understand yet? Tell me how much you will enjoy it if your ship just happens to explode at random, because unpredictability is fun.
You won't die because of luck after this change so you don't really have a point. Random doesn't kill people, being bad does. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 16:29:00 -
[1074] - Quote
Well as expected Fozzie didn't listen. He tweaked numbers but that's not enough. During the round table he put his points across very well and we can agree on his points. But this change is not the way and it has been told to him by nearly everyone who lives in W-space.
This change doesn't affect my corp as we are big enough and experienced enough to adapt to the change. But man you just made a tedious eve career even more tedious for the sake of the minority. I mean spending 5-8 hours scanning Long chains then rolling and repeating again and again to then get one good fight a WEEK (if your lucky)
I fear for the small corps just killed by this change. More dead sticks on moons
Im just waiting for the announcement that you can now claim Sov in WH's So Much Sapce |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 16:37:00 -
[1075] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.
CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.
Can you still roll holes? Yes. Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.
And that's the long and short of it.
Well if you do not understand the concept that suspending disbelief if a required component for game film,book, drama, and all entertainment implementation, then not much to say to you is there. and that this change is a great leap in the path away from everything that made EVE different. This is not just about Hole rolling difficulty, though that has relevance. THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE BASED ON PURE LUCK! Do you actually understand yet? Tell me how much you will enjoy it if your ship just happens to explode at random, because unpredictability is fun. You won't die because of luck after this change so you don't really have a point. Random doesn't kill people, being bad does.
In the current pvp meta for capitals If your a solo cap you are dead the moment you siege/triage because of the sheer amount of fire power and neuts people field. refitting is pretty much a requirement to survive unless you can curb stomp them before you lose the cap. With this change you now have a very high chance to be out of refitting range of the other capital's such to the point that even slow boating is pointless (If they have webs you even more screwed)
So essentially your entire capital fleet's life is in the hands of a dice roll and whether Fortuna is feeling bitchy today So Much Sapce |
Ettig Grunar
Grumpy Bastards No Response
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 16:56:00 -
[1076] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Well as expected Fozzie didn't listen. He tweaked numbers but that's not enough. During the round table he put his points across very well and we can agree on his points. But this change is not the way and it has been told to him by nearly everyone who lives in W-space.
This change doesn't affect my corp as we are big enough and experienced enough to adapt to the change. But man you just made a tedious eve career even more tedious for the sake of the minority. I mean spending 5-8 hours scanning Long chains then rolling and repeating again and again to then get one good fight a WEEK (if your lucky)
I fear for the small corps just killed by this change. More dead sticks on moons
Im just waiting for the announcement that you can now claim Sov in WH's
/totally agree
Aiyshimin wrote: You won't die because of luck after this change so you don't really have a point. Random doesn't kill people, being bad does.
if we play the same game, u have no idea about jumping and/or especially rolling a wh with caps! this comment about "randomness" and "beeing bad ingame" is so twisted, wrong and nonsense ... i dont even wanna gonna deeper into explaining myself here /facepalm |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1065
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 17:56:00 -
[1077] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Aiyshimin wrote:^ what a big bunch of hyper-dramatized bullcrap.
CCP's aim is to make the wild unknown less tamed, boring and predictable and you guys are acting like change is the end of the world. In a few months after this patch nobody even remembers what was so awesome and important about the old way, and you'll all be ashamed of yourselves for crying like babies.
Can you still roll holes? Yes. Do you need to adjust your rolling routine? Yes.
And that's the long and short of it.
Well if you do not understand the concept that suspending disbelief if a required component for game film,book, drama, and all entertainment implementation, then not much to say to you is there. and that this change is a great leap in the path away from everything that made EVE different. This is not just about Hole rolling difficulty, though that has relevance. THIS IS ABOUT WHETHER YOU LIVE OR DIE BASED ON PURE LUCK! Do you actually understand yet? Tell me how much you will enjoy it if your ship just happens to explode at random, because unpredictability is fun. You won't die because of luck after this change so you don't really have a point. Random doesn't kill people, being bad does.
Please explain to me when the same mechanic is applied to cynos and your fleet is scattered across a large area on landing into combat, and then tell me you died because you are bad.
Fun right?
If it is good enough that luck is now the determinant of survival for us, it is good enough for you too. Lets see how long it takes for you to complain...........
If the defending corp had a module that did this to incoming fleets, I would shake my head a bit at the crazyness, but it would be perfectly acceptable as Players NOT LUCK decided my fate.
I personally believe that the lazyness of the idea, replacing thought and design with the concept of letting luck decide our fates, Highly insulting, and although it may seem to be only a minor effect to you, it makes the entire game valueless, as we now have NO control of our fate. And do you really think it will stop here?
Fozzie ask Hilmar how he would feel when he lost that first Thorax if he had lost it to luck rather than his own actions?
The game would have never made it out of Beta. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Agrippa Arkaral
Vertical Rebirth
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 18:09:00 -
[1078] - Quote
Thread in one image:
http://i.imgur.com/oF3ehqY.png |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1065
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 18:15:00 -
[1079] - Quote
Well either way the fish are seriously pissed off with people pissing in their pool and using them as food. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Des Jardin
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 20:11:00 -
[1080] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.
CCP Fozzie:
What metric does CCP intend to use to determine whether the spawn distance modification is a positive change to the game? "Good against remotes is one thing.-á Good against the living ... that's something else." |
|
Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 20:14:00 -
[1081] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship.
Like, say, uh...a T3? Just think: wormhole corps planning strategies that carefully pick a few high-mass ships or a single capital and forming a low-mass fleet around it instead. Madness, I know. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
146
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 20:22:00 -
[1082] - Quote
Edgar Strangelove wrote:Obil Que wrote:I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship. Like, say, uh...a T3? Just think: wormhole corps planning strategies that carefully pick a few high-mass ships or a single capital and forming a low-mass fleet around it instead. Madness, I know.
If you take just a T3 and Guardian gang out and someone drops a carrier and/or a dread with a T3 fleet on you, you will wish pretty damn quickly that you brought your own carrier.
I can't wait for CCP to implement the same mass-based changes to cynosural fields and then watch all the null-tards who post here under the impression that they know more about wormholes than, say, AHARM, NOHO, or HK, turn around and blast it as a bad change for null. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
95
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 20:40:00 -
[1083] - Quote
GÇ£After continued discussion with the community we have made some adjustments from the original plan. We are reducing the base range significantly for large ships, and changing the random element to the jump distance. Now the maximum deviation from the base distance will increase for jumping through wormholes that have had significant amounts of mass pass through them. The deviation will be a maximum of 2km for fresh wormholes, and will increase to as much as 5km (in either direction) for a wormhole that is about to collapse. There will also be a lower bound of 2.5km set to prevent the wormhole from decloaking ships.GÇ¥
As I see it this will not fix the core problem: The collapser has all the risk and the aggressive GÇ£defenderGÇ¥ has all the advantage.
Let me explain what this could mean for our C2 with Null/C5 statics: Some C5s are too hostile for us and we need to roll them. Most of the time we do not have enough BS online to roll it in one go. LetGÇÖs give our scout 30s to evaluate the situation before he makes the call to roll it and give the support fleet 1 min to switch to collapsing BS and get on the WH. That gives the defender 6 mins to get a fleet ready before we can crit the WH it with the 2nd pass.
A typical reaction from an aggressive defenders is to get cloaky dictors/hictors on our side and get cloaky t3s in our WH. If we react quickly and in a coordinated fashion, e.g. not warp to the WH one by one, we can safely close the WH if the aggressive defender does not have the balls to more or less blindly jump into our WH.
With the current changes the aggressive defender does not need to have balls. A vigilant and a lucky spawn is all he needs to get a kill.
Edit: Hope the "You don't need balls"-Argument is a new one. |
thebringer
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 21:11:00 -
[1084] - Quote
"Why even have forums and Town Halls if your not going to change what we want to change!" -Hidden Freeman (Lazerhawks CEO)
I want to give some exposure to this thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4925543#post4925543
IF CCP won't listen to us then maybe they will listen to this?
This is what it has come to... |
Edgar Strangelove
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 22:03:00 -
[1085] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Edgar Strangelove wrote:Obil Que wrote:I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship. Like, say, uh...a T3? Just think: wormhole corps planning strategies that carefully pick a few high-mass ships or a single capital and forming a low-mass fleet around it instead. Madness, I know. If you take just a T3 and Guardian gang out and someone drops a carrier and/or a dread with a T3 fleet on you, you will wish pretty damn quickly that you brought your own carrier. I can't wait for CCP to implement the same mass-based changes to cynosural fields and then watch all the null-tards who post here under the impression that they know more about wormholes than, say, AHARM, NOHO, or HK, turn around and blast it as a bad change for null.
Either your sarcasm detector is broken or mine is, because I'm 99% certain we're agreeing here. |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
115
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 22:23:00 -
[1086] - Quote
Querns wrote:Glad to see the line is still being held on this important issue, despite the vocal minority posting in this thread. It reinforces that you're able to make the tough decisions in spite of a panic-stricken, emotionally-charged wall of feedback. This candor will be necessary in the months ahead. Ditto "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 00:13:00 -
[1087] - Quote
The smaller corps who rely on rolling with caps unsupported are doing it because they lack the numbers, and isn't that fuelled by multibox greed? Can't they just recruit some newbros to fly subcap support like webbing ships? I don't see the argument here. EVE is meant to be primarily social experience.
The larger corps who are so hungry for pvp content that they rage roll statics can surely afford to have the support webbers / defensive bubblers ready? And if they do getinterrupted while rolling, they got pvp content, didn't they? I don't see how giving smaller gangs the chance to tackle a capital or capitals being used to rage roll could be an issue for said big and powerful c6 groups?
To me it looks like Fozzie wants to make changes to shake up EVE, why not see what happens and if necessary take action utilising CCP's new improved shorter, Agile(TM), SCRUM(TM), release cycle? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
720
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 00:22:00 -
[1088] - Quote
Belinda HwaFang wrote: The larger corps who are so hungry for pvp content that they rage roll statics can surely afford to have the support webbers / defensive bubblers ready? And if they do getinterrupted while rolling, they got pvp content, didn't they? I don't see how giving smaller gangs the chance to tackle a capital or capitals being used to rage roll could be an issue for said big and powerful c6 groups?
Thing is 9/10 wh you roll a wh (probably more like 99/100) there won't be the threat there to take advantage of that window of vulnerable collapsing ships while just adding tedium for no good reason and those odd times that threat is there the outcome won't have the desired effect.
Not going to honey coat it any more, I'm usually a fan of what fozzie brings to the table but this one is just pants on head ******** from the perspective of someone with 5 odd years of experience of how this would work out. |
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 00:32:00 -
[1089] - Quote
That's like saying 99/100 times I'm running a combat site in nullsec there won't be anyone in local to scan me down with probes and gank my pve ship, so let's remove this tedious mechanic.
Sorry but I don't follow your line of reasoning. I also have some experience in wormholes, and am well aware how things can be 99% tedious and 1% epic. It's something which imo defines wormhole life. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
720
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 01:00:00 -
[1090] - Quote
That doesn't delay what your doing though, it would be more of an analogue with making you sit uncloaked and unable to warp for 2 minutes at the end of each site just incase someone was about to jump into system and tackle you.
(EDIT: or rather have a scaling timer based on ship type). |
|
Kel hound
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
108
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 01:05:00 -
[1091] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM. We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply). The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km. This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.
This does not address the concerns that the wormhole community has been bringing to you. Instead you are making the act of rolling a wormhole largely luck based while at the same time retaining almost all of the downsides people have been pointing out. The only thing this change actually changes is that it might, might sometimes be faster to slow boat back to the wormhole with a closing dread than it would be to bounce a safe spot. Whats worse is that you seem intent on pushing this change through in some form regardless of the consensus of the people it affects. Wormhole groups are already able to set traps and ambushes with current mechanics. There is already an element of risk associated with rolling a wormhole and not an insignificant risk either.
This is literally turning into the scatter-can mechanic all over again. Whats even more mind boggling to me is that this change is completely unnecessary. My mind boggles as my previous post becomes prophecy:
Kel hound wrote:This is starting to feel like the hacking loot-scatter mechanic all over again. Is CCP going full steam ahead with this, despite 90% of w-space trying to tell them why it is a bad idea?
At this point this thread consists of basically 2 things: Schadenfreude, and wormholers against this change.
...actually in a way this is probably worse than the scatter-cans. That change got reversed. With the amount of attention wormholes get from CCP this change might as well be permanent. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 02:10:00 -
[1092] - Quote
Belinda HwaFang wrote:The smaller corps who rely on rolling with caps unsupported are doing it because they lack the numbers, and isn't that fuelled by multibox greed? Can't they just recruit some newbros to fly subcap support like webbing ships? I don't see the argument here. EVE is meant to be primarily social experience. If you do decide to multibox and use a skeleton crew, shouldn't that be higher risk?
If less holes get rolled because it is too cumbersome, how exactly does that increase the risk for these farmers? |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1197
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 02:29:00 -
[1093] - Quote
Querns wrote:Glad to see the line is still being held on this important issue, despite the vocal minority posting in this thread. It reinforces that you're able to make the tough decisions in spite of a panic-stricken, emotionally-charged wall of feedback. This candor will be necessary in the months ahead.
Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back.
If this indicates the future of wormhole space, of null sec entities blobbing it up with sub caps and farming it out, then I don't feel so bad about leaving. And my old corp didn't even use caps to close holes, nor to shoot Sleepers.
The bit where nothing ever spawns within decloak range of the WH is just icing. The CovOps and the nullified cloaky T3 will become catchable only if the pilot gets supremely unlucky or makes a real head-meet-desk kind of piloting error.
I have no doubt that you and yours will enjoy it. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Belinda HwaFang
Coreli Corporation Ineluctable.
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 06:05:00 -
[1094] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:Belinda HwaFang wrote:The smaller corps who rely on rolling with caps unsupported are doing it because they lack the numbers, and isn't that fuelled by multibox greed? Can't they just recruit some newbros to fly subcap support like webbing ships? I don't see the argument here. EVE is meant to be primarily social experience. If you do decide to multibox and use a skeleton crew, shouldn't that be higher risk? If less holes get rolled because it is too cumbersome, how exactly does that increase the risk for these farmers?
If they don't roll the holes they don't get to hide behind unspawned K162's, so they either have to sit and wait (and not make ISK) or make ISK with the risk of being scouted while doing so from outside. |
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 08:59:00 -
[1095] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
You discuss and present things well,
I am pretty sure just about everyone in all classes of WH, understands just how bad the core concept is. Including those who do not and are celebrating the idea, but they don't live here, and just see a few easy kills for a short while, and as they have no interest in the long term survival of wormhole life, just want to see us burn.
Whilst I applaud your ideas to make things, a little less horrible, we must be careful not to let CCP believe that every bad thing can just be gold plated. Every other change in this release has the core of a good idea, and can be balanced, maybe not as we want initially, but can be good for the long term vibrancy of life.
This however just will never stop stinking until it is taken away and disposed of. Hopefully, CCP now understand the magnitude of this issue and will find a polite way of doing so. And we should have the decency to be thankful, and never speak of it again.
Merits another +1 Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back. |
William Walsh
United System's Commonwealth
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 09:57:00 -
[1096] - Quote
50 Shades of Brown
It is quite evident that CCP had no intention of listening to any of the player feedback on the Mass-based spawn distance thread. It was simply a means of damage mitigation by CCP, i.e. GÇÿGÇÖwe are giving you this whether you like it or not but please feel involved in the process by posting on this threadGÇÖGÇÖ. I mean come on guys reallyGǪ 20 days before the launch are CCP going to start making changes?
What ticks me off more than this insult to our intelligence is the fact that CCP, by dropping the ball so badly (intentionally or unintentionally, I am not quite sure) has diverted the majority our attention away from something elseGǪGǪGǪCCP have not actually created anything new for WHGÇÖs since 2008. So what can we eagerly anticipate in Hyperion? Some new content? Something all wormholers can get involved in, explore, experience, enjoy??? Unfortunately not. We are just getting the same content we have had for the last 6 years with different mechanics. ItGÇÖs the cop out, the get around the great evasion of doing any real work and creating something new. The meeting for this mechanic may have gone something like this: GÇÿGÇÖ letGÇÖs just mix things up a little and see what happensGÇÖGÇÖ GÇÿGÇÖerm yeh ok sounds good to meGÇÖGÇÖ. Meeting finished. I mean realistically thatGÇÖs probably not how it went, but it would have given us the same outcome.
Now I would like to take you all on a journey with me, to a not so distant land occupied by United Systems Commonwealth, where an uncanny similarity occurred 2 Christmases ago. Its Christmas morning and young Alzuule is eagerly awaiting his Christmas presents. He is in for a real treat. CCP Santa has brought him an awesome remote control fire engine. ItGÇÖs great, it makes loads of noise, its red, it flyGÇÖs around the living room and he loves itGǪGǪGǪ
The following Christmas CCP Santa paints AlzuueGÇÖs fire engine brown and gives it him backGǪWell Merry Christmas!!!!!!!. CCP Santa then tells Alzuule, GÇÿGÇÖhey kid, its ok, donGÇÖt worry, this Christmas I didnGÇÖt give anyone new presents I just repainted their old ones brown. But there is this awesome online forum where you can go give me your feedback.
Alzuule races to the forum to tell Santa that he is a big red Christmas Grinch and that he should really re-consider giving kids back their old presents in a different colour as this might discredit him as a man responsible for bringing Christmas joy to all. CCP Santa cannot be bothered to solve the problem properly because too many kids have complained, so he comes up with a cunning plan ...I will paint the all the toys a slightly different shade of brown and give them back. Problem solved.
Thank You and Good Night
P.S If you give me 1 billion isk I will paint things brown for you
|
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 10:36:00 -
[1097] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Well as expected Fozzie didn't listen. He tweaked numbers but that's not enough. During the round table he put his points across very well and we can agree on his points.
I'm not sure he did put his point across. He was repeatedly asked about the specific rational for this particular change and the particular figures being used - and each time he spoke purely in the most general generalities.
Furthermore, when you start off with one set of figures and then radically halve them - that seems to indicate to me that process for deciding on those figures was broken to start with. This isn't just restricted to just this particular change - you can look at the ship balance threads for more examples (see the sudden increase of the sig radiuses of medium towers etc).
It's not like CCP just announce these things - presumably they spend hours/days thinking about such changes, discussing them internally etc. |
Nimrod vanHall
Martyr's Vengence Nulli Secunda
95
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 10:49:00 -
[1098] - Quote
You can move the man out of Goonswarm but you cannot remove the goon out of the man. CCP fozzy is clearly still a goon going all out to ruin other people's game experience. |
thebringer
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 11:35:00 -
[1099] - Quote
Belinda HwaFang wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Belinda HwaFang wrote:The smaller corps who rely on rolling with caps unsupported are doing it because they lack the numbers, and isn't that fuelled by multibox greed? Can't they just recruit some newbros to fly subcap support like webbing ships? I don't see the argument here. EVE is meant to be primarily social experience. If you do decide to multibox and use a skeleton crew, shouldn't that be higher risk? If less holes get rolled because it is too cumbersome, how exactly does that increase the risk for these farmers? If they don't roll the holes they don't get to hide behind unspawned K162's, so they either have to sit and wait (and not make ISK) or make ISK with the risk of being scouted while doing so from outside.
Right and how do you think that effects wormhole PVP?
The farmers will just POS up and log if there is a threat instead of rolling the hole, therefore wasting both the 'farmers' and the PVPer's time, combined with the increased length of time it takes to roll a hole means less content for all participants...
|
thebringer
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 11:44:00 -
[1100] - Quote
William Walsh wrote:50 Shades of Brown
It is quite evident that CCP had no intention of listening to any of the player feedback on the Mass-based spawn distance thread. It was simply a means of damage mitigation by CCP, i.e. GÇÿGÇÖwe are giving you this whether you like it or not but please feel involved in the process by posting on this threadGÇÖGÇÖ. I mean come on guys reallyGǪ 20 days before the launch are CCP going to start making changes?
What ticks me off more than this insult to our intelligence is the fact that CCP, by dropping the ball so badly (intentionally or unintentionally, I am not quite sure) has diverted the majority our attention away from something elseGǪGǪGǪCCP have not actually created anything new for WHGÇÖs since 2008. So what can we eagerly anticipate in Hyperion? Some new content? Something all wormholers can get involved in, explore, experience, enjoy??? Unfortunately not. We are just getting the same content we have had for the last 6 years with different mechanics. ItGÇÖs the cop out, the get around the great evasion of doing any real work and creating something new. The meeting for this mechanic may have gone something like this: GÇÿGÇÖ letGÇÖs just mix things up a little and see what happensGÇÖGÇÖ GÇÿGÇÖerm yeh ok sounds good to meGÇÖGÇÖ. Meeting finished. I mean realistically thatGÇÖs probably not how it went, but it would have given us the same outcome.
Now I would like to take you all on a journey with me, to a not so distant land occupied by United Systems Commonwealth, where an uncanny similarity occurred 2 Christmases ago. Its Christmas morning and young Alzuule is eagerly awaiting his Christmas presents. He is in for a real treat. CCP Santa has brought him an awesome remote control fire engine. ItGÇÖs great, it makes loads of noise, its red, it flyGÇÖs around the living room and he loves itGǪGǪGǪ
The following Christmas CCP Santa paints AlzuueGÇÖs fire engine brown and gives it him backGǪWell Merry Christmas!!!!!!!. CCP Santa then tells Alzuule, GÇÿGÇÖhey kid, its ok, donGÇÖt worry, this Christmas I didnGÇÖt give anyone new presents I just repainted their old ones brown. But there is this awesome online forum where you can go give me your feedback.
Alzuule races to the forum to tell Santa that he is a big red Christmas Grinch and that he should really re-consider giving kids back their old presents in a different colour as this might discredit him as a man responsible for bringing Christmas joy to all. CCP Santa cannot be bothered to solve the problem properly because too many kids have complained, so he comes up with a cunning plan ...I will paint the all the toys a slightly different shade of brown and give them back. Problem solved.
Thank You and Good Night
P.S If you give me 1 billion isk I will paint things brown for you
XD This is amazing and so true! |
|
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
108
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 12:20:00 -
[1101] - Quote
thebringer wrote: Right and how do you think that effects wormhole PVP?
The farmers will just POS up and log if there is a threat instead of rolling the hole, therefore wasting both the 'farmers' and the PVPer's time, combined with the increased length of time it takes to roll a hole means less content for all participants...
Exactly.
This is what Fozzie doesnt get. Well, he's a smart guy, he probably gets it, but wants to see if it will really be so.
Im convinced it will be, we will have a lot less people in WH space thanks to this stupid change. Setting up a PvP or PvE (both, doesnt matter) operation in WH space already takes a long time. With this ******** change, it will take even longer.
Fozzie, there are people with a real life, a family and a job (well a second job in addition to Eve), many of us wont go through the tedious process of rolling for content with your changes. Adjusting the spawn distance does not solve the problem, it makes your idea of 'improving' whs just a tiny bit less terrible.
So no matter what we post here, there have been a TON of excellent posts by knowledgeable people in the WH community, Fozzie is gonna do his thing anyway.
The only thing that you now can do is wait for them to implement it and hope (lol) they will revert it if after they observe a decline in W-space activity.
(Yes, I post with my main (a Nullbear to you), who is not in WH space, but I have more than one account, and I have been very active in WH space for the last four years)
|
Ettig Grunar
Grumpy Bastards No Response
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 12:59:00 -
[1102] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:thebringer wrote: Right and how do you think that effects wormhole PVP?
The farmers will just POS up and log if there is a threat instead of rolling the hole, therefore wasting both the 'farmers' and the PVPer's time, combined with the increased length of time it takes to roll a hole means less content for all participants...
Exactly. This is what Fozzie doesnt get. Well, he's a smart guy, he probably gets it, but wants to see if it will really be so. Im convinced it will be, we will have a lot less people in WH space thanks to this stupid change. Setting up a PvP or PvE (both, doesnt matter) operation in WH space already takes a long time. With this ******** change, it will take even longer. Fozzie, there are people with a real life, a family and a job (well a second job in addition to Eve), many of us wont go through the tedious process of rolling for content with your changes. Adjusting the spawn distance does not solve the problem, it makes your idea of 'improving' whs just a tiny bit less terrible. So no matter what we post here, there have been a TON of excellent posts by knowledgeable people in the WH community, Fozzie is gonna do his thing anyway. The only thing that you now can do is wait for them to implement it and hope (lol) they will revert it if after they observe a decline in W-space activity. (Yes, I post with my main (a Nullbear to you), who is not in WH space, but I have more than one account, and I have been very active in WH space for the last four years)
thread could be closed with this post until patch day imo
|
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 13:05:00 -
[1103] - Quote
They probs will release this change and then lock the thread and all subsequent threads to stop us complaining about it.
I find it a real shame that I like the thought behind the change (making rolling less safe) but this change is just not the way to do it. It's like performing an operation where the surgeon uses an axe instead of a scalpel. So Much Space |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1077
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 13:33:00 -
[1104] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:They probs will release this change and then lock the thread and all subsequent threads to stop us complaining about it.
I find it a real shame that I like the thought behind the change (making rolling less safe) but this change is just not the way to do it. It's like performing an operation where the surgeon uses an axe instead of a scalpel.
Very nearly there, it is more like the surgeon tipping the table vertical, spinning it and throwing axes at the patient,
Whilst loudly proclaiming, " roll up roll up, who feels lucky today!" There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
788
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 13:34:00 -
[1105] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:It's like performing an operation where the (BLIND) surgeon uses an axe instead of a scalpel. FTFY.
Bob is the god of Wormholes.
That's all you need to know. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1077
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 13:35:00 -
[1106] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:It's like performing an operation where the (BLIND) surgeon uses an axe instead of a scalpel. FTFY.
Just combine the two posts above yours. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 14:32:00 -
[1107] - Quote
If this change goes through, even in its updated form, at the very least everything with a covops cloak needs to have some risk of spawning within 2km of the hole, like with the current mechanics.
Still think there's nothing inherently wrong with rolling holes whether for defense or to find content and its not cool to make the process overly time consuming and tedious (not to mention even more dangerous). I only have difficulty with the idea of insta-rolling holes with multiple caps/orcas/BSs.
Perhaps leave the spawning distance thing as-is so covops and nully/cloaky T3's can still be caught. But put in a new deployable that can re-open player collapsed holes if deployed within half hour or so of collapse. The re-opened hole would have some sort of invulnerability to ships jumping through from the other side for a short time but with a restrictive mass limit for the side that has the deployable. Say, enough mass to get a strike group through and back but not an overwhelming force. This would even the odds if we're talking about a large wormhole pvp alliance vs a small(er) one. Would also mean more small gang fights.
The deployable should be warpable or easily probed down and have low HP so it can be destroyed by low DPS ships even if guarded but if it is destroyed the re-opened hole collapses immediately (give noob pilots the opportunity to demonstrate their loyalty and take one for the team lol). This could trap players on both sides and make things very interesting. If the deploying side overstays their welcome the re-opened hole can lose invulnerability and be re-collapsed as per normal mechanics.
Deployable won't work on any k-space to w-space holes, would be w-space to w-space only.
|
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
148
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 15:02:00 -
[1108] - Quote
Edgar Strangelove wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Edgar Strangelove wrote:Obil Que wrote:I suspect that CCP hopes that instead it gets people to venture forth into the chain looking for what lies beyond the next wormhole is something smaller than a capital or battleship. Like, say, uh...a T3? Just think: wormhole corps planning strategies that carefully pick a few high-mass ships or a single capital and forming a low-mass fleet around it instead. Madness, I know. If you take just a T3 and Guardian gang out and someone drops a carrier and/or a dread with a T3 fleet on you, you will wish pretty damn quickly that you brought your own carrier. I can't wait for CCP to implement the same mass-based changes to cynosural fields and then watch all the null-tards who post here under the impression that they know more about wormholes than, say, AHARM, NOHO, or HK, turn around and blast it as a bad change for null. Either your sarcasm detector is broken or mine is, because I'm 99% certain we're agreeing here.
Mine. It appears I was drunk at the time as I have no recollection of posting that... |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 16:04:00 -
[1109] - Quote
Currently every wormhole has three random aspects to it.
Location, within a range, that wormhole could be to highsec, lowsec, nullsec, C1-3 space, c4-5 space, or C6 space. Pick one range of systems, and that wormhole can be from any of those systems in existence.
TIme, as wormholes have a set duration of existence, with a variation of a percentage that we, as players, have worked out through years of trial and error. The only reliable method for determining when a wormhole will collapse is to sit and observe the shift to "End of Life" where the hours remaining becomes a very narrow span of time.
Mass to collapse is also a fundamental variable, and the third and final random number generator cycling for that signature, which is why players have learned that larger mass on the final craft through the hole can reliably close it (with the ship ending on the correct side) with a higher margin of probability of it ended up back in it's home system.
Now CCP believe we have adapted too effectively to the three random variables already built into every wormhole, so they are adding a fourth, spawn distance. CCP did this without consulting the elite group of players that has determined the variables and worked around three previous attempts at affecting their existence, so much so that the hostile and unforgiving space we exist in has been deemed "safe" by some.
Someone out there believes that wormholes are too safe, or too predictable, or too understood. If any of these variables were added to a gate system, I believe all of known space would shed tears of blood. Wormholers wouldn't really care. So please, don't act like you know W-space when K--space has lost the effect of trying to kill you. Wormholes still work at it, and with sleepers, most players not prepared for a fight to the death end up floating in their pod. Wormholes are littered with the corpses of K-spacers, and many times I'll find a random frozen corpse to announce that someone from K-space entered our domain. Yet apparently its become too safe.
This mass affecting variable spawn distance will only hamper wormhole residents who care to stay long enough to adapt, and we will, but the group as a whole becomes less. The game will suffer as the numbers willing to adapt to yet another change to the fundamental rules that govern our existence will result in a great number of experienced players leaving. CCP doesn't train anyone about wormholes. Veteran players do. You are losing your veteran player base to your own arrogance, and that is losing your future of this sector of space. Your knowledge base thins from every veteran you upset via a policy change, or disloyal moderation, or unkind policies.
And yes, I know I am but a wee newb without skills, so my talk of veterans is directed at my betters.Many of them refuse to debase themselves to speak in the forums. A few have been pushed into it, in the hopes that this chance will be repealed before it happens, but CCP doesn't acknowledge that. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1080
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 16:33:00 -
[1110] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Currently every wormhole has three random aspects to it.
Location, within a range, that wormhole could be to highsec, lowsec, nullsec, C1-3 space, c4-5 space, or C6 space. Pick one range of systems, and that wormhole can be from any of those systems in existence.
TIme, as wormholes have a set duration of existence, with a variation of a percentage that we, as players, have worked out through years of trial and error. The only reliable method for determining when a wormhole will collapse is to sit and observe the shift to "End of Life" where the hours remaining becomes a very narrow span of time.
Mass to collapse is also a fundamental variable, and the third and final random number generator cycling for that signature, which is why players have learned that larger mass on the final craft through the hole can reliably close it (with the ship ending on the correct side) with a higher margin of probability of it ended up back in it's home system.
Now CCP believe we have adapted too effectively to the three random variables already built into every wormhole, so they are adding a fourth, spawn distance. CCP did this without consulting the elite group of players that has determined the variables and worked around three previous attempts at affecting their existence, so much so that the hostile and unforgiving space we exist in has been deemed "safe" by some.
Someone out there believes that wormholes are too safe, or too predictable, or too understood. If any of these variables were added to a gate system, I believe all of known space would shed tears of blood. Wormholers wouldn't really care. So please, don't act like you know W-space when K--space has lost the effect of trying to kill you. Wormholes still work at it, and with sleepers, most players not prepared for a fight to the death end up floating in their pod. Wormholes are littered with the corpses of K-spacers, and many times I'll find a random frozen corpse to announce that someone from K-space entered our domain. Yet apparently its become too safe.
This mass affecting variable spawn distance will only hamper wormhole residents who care to stay long enough to adapt, and we will, but the group as a whole becomes less. The game will suffer as the numbers willing to adapt to yet another change to the fundamental rules that govern our existence will result in a great number of experienced players leaving. CCP doesn't train anyone about wormholes. Veteran players do. You are losing your veteran player base to your own arrogance, and that is losing your future of this sector of space. Your knowledge base thins from every veteran you upset via a policy change, or disloyal moderation.
And yes, I know I am but a wee newb without skills, so my talk of veterans is directed at my betters.Many of them refuse to debase themselves to speak in the forums. A few have been pushed into it, in the hopes that this chance will be repealed before it happens, but CCP doesn't acknowledge that.
Nicely put, as you say we have adapted to the randomness inherent in these three cases, this is randomness though to modify the presentation of the mechanic. This being the case means that players can learn and adapt to the random factor as it does not change the core mechanism.
This change however is different, the only way of dealing with the mechanic is one of deciding to jump or not jump. Once you have decided to place your fate in the hands of the luck Gods, you are just along for the ride.
Where you come out in a great sphere surrounding the wormhole is out of your hands, and your fate is dependent on whether you are lucky enough in your and your fleets landing position.
If we jumped and landed out of return jump range, all together, we may disagree with the need of it, but we would learn to adapt.
There is no way of adapting to this as currently proposed. None. Just "do you feel lucky" ? sometimes you will be able to burn back with the right fit, sometimes warp away and back, and other times you are just "unlucky" and there is no way whatsoever to change that.
That is the worst imaginable piece of games design if you want to retain and encourage customers. You have just developed game aversion therapy. Good work CCP
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
721
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 17:04:00 -
[1111] - Quote
I dunno why people focus so much on the risk factor - sure when there is someone to take advantage of that window of vulnerability there is an extra risk factor there but by and large when people are collapsing wormholes there simply isn't anyone there or anyone in an immediate position to take advantage of that. Sure sometimes people roll in the face of entities that they couldn't deal with, occasionally an orca gets away, etc. but as general life in wormholes go those are edge cases.
This change will also tend to strengthen the need to be part of a larger entity and in a small but not insignificant way errode wormholes towards being more like nullsec by reducing the ability to manipulate wormhole space so as you aren't forced to engage larger entities on an open battlefield which tends to more often than not come down to a pure numbers game.
The changes that are needed IMO would be to firstly incentivise people not to collapse in the first place (i.e. random chance to spawn higher value NPCs or containers/items in sites if the static is healthy, etc.) and then maybe a change to the final shrink whereby it becomes some sort of "weak" non-static wormhole for a limited time without holding the static open or introducing needless delays. (Not really a fan of that kind of mechanic but there is some intermediate potential there maybe). |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1080
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 17:13:00 -
[1112] - Quote
Rroff wrote:I dunno why people focus so much on the risk factor - sure when there is someone to take advantage of that window of vulnerability there is an extra risk factor there but by and large when people are collapsing wormholes there simply isn't anyone there or anyone in an immediate position to take advantage of that. Sure sometimes people roll in the face of entities that they couldn't deal with, occasionally an orca gets away, etc. but as general life in wormholes go those are edge cases.
This change will also tend to strengthen the need to be part of a larger entity and in a small but not insignificant way errode wormholes towards being more like nullsec by reducing the ability to manipulate wormhole space so as you aren't forced to engage larger entities on an open battlefield which tends to more often than not come down to a pure numbers game.
The changes that are needed IMO would be to firstly incentivise people not to collapse in the first place (i.e. random chance to spawn higher value NPCs or containers/items in sites if the static is healthy, etc.) and then maybe a change to the final shrink whereby it becomes some sort of "weak" non-static wormhole for a limited time without holding the static open or introducing needless delays. (Not really a fan of that kind of mechanic but there is some intermediate potential there maybe). Yes, other incentives to encourage one not to need to close holes to seek combat, would be promising.
But please understand, this is absolutely not just about risk factor, while increasing risk will affect the decision as to whether people roll holes or not, this proposal goes way way beyond that.
The risk is not that you may encounter more opposition, or harder battles, it is whether you randomly get dropped into a position where NOTHING can save you. That cannot be mitigated against by fitting skill or tactics. THAT is what is so greatly concerning.
If CCP ONLY wanted to increase risk, they could have simply said that capitals would jump 5km outside of the range they could jump back and as the hole was destabilised all ships that followed would land on the heavy ship.
But no they wanted all the ships to spawn scattered randomly across a wide sphere where some would end up easy victims.
See the difference? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 17:52:00 -
[1113] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Rroff wrote:I dunno why people focus so much on the risk factor - sure when there is someone to take advantage of that window of vulnerability there is an extra risk factor there but by and large when people are collapsing wormholes there simply isn't anyone there or anyone in an immediate position to take advantage of that. Sure sometimes people roll in the face of entities that they couldn't deal with, occasionally an orca gets away, etc. but as general life in wormholes go those are edge cases.
This change will also tend to strengthen the need to be part of a larger entity and in a small but not insignificant way errode wormholes towards being more like nullsec by reducing the ability to manipulate wormhole space so as you aren't forced to engage larger entities on an open battlefield which tends to more often than not come down to a pure numbers game.
The changes that are needed IMO would be to firstly incentivise people not to collapse in the first place (i.e. random chance to spawn higher value NPCs or containers/items in sites if the static is healthy, etc.) and then maybe a change to the final shrink whereby it becomes some sort of "weak" non-static wormhole for a limited time without holding the static open or introducing needless delays. (Not really a fan of that kind of mechanic but there is some intermediate potential there maybe). Yes, other incentives to encourage one not to need to close holes to seek combat, would be promising. But please understand, this is absolutely not just about risk factor, while increasing risk will affect the decision as to whether people roll holes or not, this proposal goes way way beyond that. The risk is not that you may encounter more opposition, or harder battles, it is whether you randomly get dropped into a position where NOTHING can save you. That cannot be mitigated against by fitting skill or tactics. THAT is what is so greatly concerning. If CCP ONLY wanted to increase risk, and encourage combat, then they could have simply said that capitals would jump 5km outside of the range they could jump back and as the hole was destabilised by such a large mass then all the ships that followed would land on the heavy ship. But no they wanted all the ships to spawn scattered randomly across a wide sphere where some would end up easy victims. See the difference?
I appreciate your position, truly. It does make me wonder, just as an academic exercise, what do you think wormhole residents, and specifically cap pilots, would be like today if this mechanic had been in place from the inception of wormholes. Would this even be an issue? Would we simply see wormhole space as one where you do not jump caps into hostile holes? Would the inevitable blueballing presence of a cap fleet on a home hole simply have been the death of high-end wormhole combat?
I am admittedly far from engaging in cap combat and this change seems mostly significantly impacting that level of wormhole space. I don't forsee it affecting significantly life in sub-capital wormhole space short of the occasional lost Orca for those groups caught in the process without proper support. I'm trying not to play the game of "it doesn't affect me so who cares". Wormhole space is perhaps the only space in EVE where any element of randomness exists. This change does enter some before untouched territory with regards to how that randomness affects in game play. By a similar token though, many players ask specifically for randomness in their PvE content. It is entirely possible that such random elements could result in no-win situations for a given pilot if they had chosen to enter into that environment with a less than capable ship for all possible outcomes. Is that all that different than a cap pilot rolling the dice jumping into a mechanic that they know as the possibility of being a no-win outcome, especially since that outcome is entirely player dependent at that point by requiring a hostile force engage the cap before it returns through the hole.
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Verisimilidude 001
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 17:55:00 -
[1114] - Quote
thebringer wrote:The farmers will just POS up and log if there is a threat instead of rolling the hole, therefore wasting both the 'farmers' and the PVPer's time, combined with the increased length of time it takes to roll a hole means less content for all participants...
I think that this snip perfectly sums up the most probable consequences of the spawn distance changes, even when you take into account the other changes on SiSi (specifically the K162 delay).
People respond to incentives. For all groups of people living in wormholes, this change is a very strong negative incentive to rolling a wormhole:
GÇóFarming groups whose primary purpose for living in wormholes is making ISK are getting an all-together negative incentive package for living in wormholes from this expansion. Rolling their static hole becomes much more dangerous (What CCP wants), but they can be caught while farming much more easily due to the K162 spawn changes (What CCP wants?). However, the frequency of farming will decrease significantly, as the likelihood of being connected to a hostile entity is higher due to the much-more-frequent spawns of wormholes and the increased average cost of rolling a hole (Ships lost per hole rolled over a given period).
If the farming group is connected to a hostile entity, no farming and no rolling will occur. This will lower the amount of ISK generated via wormhole content (Almost assuredly what CCP wants), but will dramatically decrease content for all other wormhole dwellers, the next group most:
GÇóLarge entities that farm and pvp are largely unaffected by the spawn distance changes... Directly. They will still be able to efficiently roll holes with much less risk than a smaller entity, and can absorb losses more easily when accidents do happen. There will, however, be less overall content for them because one of their 'targets', the farming groups, will be fewer in number and farming less often. On the upside, the K162 delay changes make logoff traps incredibly effective, as if the farming group fails to place someone on their newly-rolled static or that person fails to notice a wormhole activation, it becomes trivial for a scan alt to scan a way in for a site-running gank fleet without the target's knowledge.
All that having been said, the large pvp'ing/farming entities are still getting a net negative incentive to living in wormholes from these changes--There will be less farmers who do less farming (many may leave if Incursions become relatively more profitable), and less of the next group residing and operating in wormhole space:
GÇóSmaller entities that farm and pvp. I further specify that these entities will take most fights that (initially/based on intel) are fair. Because these groups generally live in lower class wormholes and/or do not have as many members as larger groups, their incentive package is also quite negative from the spawn distance change. They risk more of their overall net worth in order to secure their hole for farming, and since rolling takes significantly more time with these changes they lose a non-negligible amount of efficiency. Furthermore, they are more likely to not have the ability to place a scout on their new, unopened static to ensure that no scan alt has zipped out to find a way in for a predator, which significantly increases their risk factor in addition to the other increases discussed.
Because these small groups will be living a much riskier life, they will be pressured toward clumping into larger and larger groups in order to stay viable. This isn't an entirely negative change, as the game should encourage and reward playing in a commensurately larger group, but it's fair to say that most small to medium-sized wormhole organizations stay that way because they choose to, not because they are unable to.
The net effect on these groups will be a strong disincentive to living in wormholes. Their way of life may not even be viable--I even think it likely that they won't be able to make enough ISK to support their pve and pvp habits. They will largely leave wormhole space or gravitate to the already-larger groups. The end result, I think, will be an extinction of these groups over time.
~~~
So, above I've outlined my case for why virtually all wormhole dwellers are getting a net-negative incentive package for living in wormholes. Below I'd like to propose my (poor) suggestion to achieving what CCP wants from this expansion, ie, less ISK, more risk, and more content for wormholes and the people that live there. I say poor because I don't think there exists an easy change--People respond much better to positive incentives than negative incentives, but it's difficult to further incentivize an already quite-welly incentivized activity. What I mean is, as it stands, it is pretty easy to live in wormhole space and stay ISK-positive.
|
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:13:00 -
[1115] - Quote
Verisimilidude 001 wrote:thebringer wrote:The farmers will just POS up and log if there is a threat instead of rolling the hole, therefore wasting both the 'farmers' and the PVPer's time, combined with the increased length of time it takes to roll a hole means less content for all participants... I think that this snip perfectly sums up the most probable consequences of the spawn distance changes, even when you take into account the other changes on SiSi (specifically the K162 delay). People respond to incentives. For all groups of people living in wormholes, this change is a very strong negative incentive to rolling a wormhole:
I just don't see it.
Farming groups: How many currently roll a hole away from a hostile active connection vs. POS up/log off? It has to be a very small percentage. Most hole rolling by dedicated farming groups is likely done with quiet connections after which they farm in peace, watching for new connections. This is a net zero change as I don't see it impacting their decision to roll a hole. It is far more based on what is on the other side (hostile or not) than how many trips it will take or how many people. By this token, any negative effect from POS up/log off is no different than it is today. Any random connection will be immediately considered hostile and result in the fleet warping away. A well prepared entity rolling into such a hole (see below) could take advantage and get kills previously not possible because of the old K162 mechanic. The new K162 mechanic actually favors roaming fleets with prepared tactics vs. lone scouts due to the chance of catching a fleet unprepared or attempting to flee and unable to before the bubble lands.
Large PvE/PvP: Without a noticeable change to farming group behavior, these groups will benefit strongly from the deeper wormhole chains. Every new random connection can open into another hole with a new unopened static thus presenting additional changes to pop into a new hole and catch someone unaware, especially with the new K162 mechanism. In addition, if large PvE/PvP groups are indeed roaming chains, they have more chances to interact in organic wormhole chains. See above regarding roaming fleets and the new K162 mechanics. Negatives here focus on cap combat on wormholes.
Smaller PvE/PvP: The choice here is rolling with an Orca or rolling with battleships and again, the primary motivator continues to be are there hostiles on the other side. Most groups of this size I would imagine will start to roll with battleships OR roll in one pass vs. a multi-pass Orca/BS combination. I don't see this change affecting small groups in regards to rolling in any significant form. If anything, the increased randomness will more negatively impact them by opening up more and more connections to them with potential roaming entities (see above) and thus bringing fights they deem "unfair" resulting in POS up/log off more frequently. It is this aspect of the change (more randomness) that I feel is the most harmful though that could be addressed through a future rebalancing of lower class wormhole rewards to incite people to live in this space. PvP oriented groups will find this change beneficial.
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
721
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:14:00 -
[1116] - Quote
Obil Que wrote: I appreciate your position, truly. It does make me wonder, just as an academic exercise, what do you think wormhole residents, and specifically cap pilots, would be like today if this mechanic had been in place from the inception of wormholes. Would this even be an issue? Would we simply see wormhole space as one where you do not jump caps into hostile holes? Would the inevitable blueballing presence of a cap fleet on a home hole simply have been the death of high-end wormhole combat?
I am admittedly far from engaging in cap combat and this change seems mostly significantly impacting that level of wormhole space. I don't forsee it affecting significantly life in sub-capital wormhole space short of the occasional lost Orca for those groups caught in the process without proper support. I'm trying not to play the game of "it doesn't affect me so who cares". Wormhole space is perhaps the only space in EVE where any element of randomness exists. This change does enter some before untouched territory with regards to how that randomness affects in game play. By a similar token though, many players ask specifically for randomness in their PvE content. It is entirely possible that such random elements could result in no-win situations for a given pilot if they had chosen to enter into that environment with a less than capable ship for all possible outcomes. Is that all that different than a cap pilot rolling the dice jumping into a mechanic that they know as the possibility of being a no-win outcome, especially since that outcome is entirely player dependent at that point by requiring a hostile force engage the cap before it returns through the hole.
Hard to really know for sure - I suspect though it would have resulted in less small to medium sized groups in C5/6 space and more of a gravitation towards a small number of larger power blocs instead. |
Verisimilidude 001
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:25:00 -
[1117] - Quote
With that in mind, my suggestions are pretty radical and I'm not near as confident in them as I am in the above exigencies, but here goes:
1. No changes to the current spawn distance mechanism. 2. Instead of having a variable mass on wormholes and an increase in ship-jump size as you go up in class, wormholes would function liked this:
GÇóC1-C2 wormholes have a max ship size of battlecruiser passing through them, but ships cruiser-size and smaller have no effect on the mass of a wormhole. 5 minute polarization timer, and jumping through any wormhole gives a timer to up-size ships, but down-size ships have the current timer. However, two passes of a battlecruiser would close the hole.
GÇóC3-C4 wormholes have a max ship size of battleship passing through them, but ships battlecruiser-size and smaller have no effect on the mass of a wormhole. 5 minute polarization timer, and jumping through any wormhole gives a timer to up-size ships, but down-size ships have the current timer. However, two passes of a battleship would close the hole.
GÇóC5-C6 wormholes have a max ship size of capital passing through them, but ships battleship-size and smaller have no effect on the mass of a wormhole. 5 minute polarization timer, and jumping through any wormhole gives a timer to up-size ships, but down-size ships have the current timer. However, two passes of a capital would close the hole.
GÇóHigh-sec, low-sec, and null-sec connections would obey the rules of the corresponding system
GÇóNon-covops ships may not activate a cloak while on grid with a wormhole.
These changes do not disproportionately burden smaller or larger corps, nor do they favor farming groups over pvp groups. Rolling any wormhole comes with the risk of, at most, twice the value of the largest ship allowed to pass through the hole and only minimally requires 1 person. However, you are at risk for a much greater amount of time and to roll safely, you would need a fleet of smaller ships on standby ready to respond to a gank attempt on your 5-minute-stranded up-sized ship which can't cloak while at the wormhole.
Smaller groups could force fights on their side of the hole by sending through a hero alt and either ejecting so they could bring the pod back, or die a gruesome death. Call it a tithe to Bob. Having the home-field advantage would significantly level the playing field between different-sized groups.
Larger groups can still rage-roll to find content, but smart positioning by the smaller force alleviates some of the blob aspect, as at least you're getting blobbed by ships commensurate with your income.
Farming groups can still merrily farm away, but are at increased risk of ganks due to the delayed K162 spawn change.
Overall, these proposed changes, or some iteration of them, would increase risk of rolling, decrease the amount of ISK generated from wormholes as more ships are blown up, and create more content for all residents by creating a place (the wormhole) where ships tend to congregate. They also somewhat simplify logistics of living in wormhole space.
Finally, these changes create new content by placing positive, ISK-neutral incentives on activities like guarding wormholes if you'd like to protect a chain from being rolled and/or control access through the chain, and... other... stuff?
Now it's your turn to think about the possibilities of this system. I'm tired. |
Verisimilidude 001
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:33:00 -
[1118] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:Smaller PvE/PvP: The choice here is rolling with an Orca or rolling with battleships and again, the primary motivator continues to be are there hostiles on the other side. Most groups of this size I would imagine will start to roll with battleships OR roll in one pass vs. a multi-pass Orca/BS combination. I don't see this change affecting small groups in regards to rolling in any significant form. If anything, the increased randomness will more negatively impact them by opening up more and more connections to them with potential roaming entities (see above) and thus bringing fights they deem "unfair" resulting in POS up/log off more frequently. It is this aspect of the change (more randomness) that I feel is the most harmful though that could be addressed through a future rebalancing of lower class wormhole rewards to incite people to live in this space. PvP oriented groups will find this change beneficial.
I snipped out the part that I think is most important to talk about: Smaller-ish groups. These changes have a strong negative incentive for them to live in wormholes, and will encourage the same POS up/log off activity that farming groups do.
Farming groups are net-negative because they can be rage-rolled into and have no idea they're about to get jumped, with no way to defend against it. This will likely change the ISK:Effort ratio enough to favor moving out of wormholes, which creates less content for everyone else. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:50:00 -
[1119] - Quote
Verisimilidude 001 wrote:Obil Que wrote:Smaller PvE/PvP: The choice here is rolling with an Orca or rolling with battleships and again, the primary motivator continues to be are there hostiles on the other side. Most groups of this size I would imagine will start to roll with battleships OR roll in one pass vs. a multi-pass Orca/BS combination. I don't see this change affecting small groups in regards to rolling in any significant form. If anything, the increased randomness will more negatively impact them by opening up more and more connections to them with potential roaming entities (see above) and thus bringing fights they deem "unfair" resulting in POS up/log off more frequently. It is this aspect of the change (more randomness) that I feel is the most harmful though that could be addressed through a future rebalancing of lower class wormhole rewards to incite people to live in this space. PvP oriented groups will find this change beneficial.
I snipped out the part that I think is most important to talk about: Smaller-ish groups. These changes have a strong negative incentive for them to live in wormholes, and will encourage the same POS up/log off activity that farming groups do. Farming groups are net-negative because they can be rage-rolled into and have no idea they're about to get jumped, with no way to defend against it. This will likely change the ISK:Effort ratio enough to favor moving out of wormholes, which creates less content for everyone else.
Adapt or die. Wormhole space truly only is friendly to smaller groups when they can exercise adequate hole control. It isn't like 300 where a small force is controlling a point of entry, it is entirely based on the concept of isolation and awareness (for both the small group and dedicated farming groups). That isolation is specifically being targeted. Those small and farming groups that can adapt to this more random space through applied effort to close holes and increased awareness of randoms will continue to exist, those that do not...
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Verisimilidude 002
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:52:00 -
[1120] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
|
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1201
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:52:00 -
[1121] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:I am admittedly far from engaging in cap combat and this change seems mostly significantly impacting that level of wormhole space. I don't forsee it affecting significantly life in sub-capital wormhole space short of the occasional lost Orca for those groups caught in the process without proper support. I'm trying not to play the game of "it doesn't affect me so who cares". Wormhole space is perhaps the only space in EVE where any element of randomness exists. This change does enter some before untouched territory with regards to how that randomness affects in game play.
I never loved wormhole space for its safety. We ran sites with holes wide open and posted scouts on them so that if someone was coming, we had time to see if we needed to reship or if we could take them with the fleet we had. I'm just saying that so that it's clear that safety and predictability are not features to me, not in J-space.
The problem with this proposed feature is that it trades one kind of predictability for another kind, which reliably favors large fleets of smaller ships and which very nearly requires them for closing large holes, and; it introduces a new kind of safety and predictability in that you'll be able to jump through a WH and be 100% sure that the hole can't decloak you on the other side.
If it were just increased randomness, I'd be fine with it. I said as much in the Dev Blog thread. At least that would be more hassle for everyone, instead of directly incentivizing larger fleets. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
Verisimilidude 003
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:55:00 -
[1122] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
Verisimilidude 004
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:56:00 -
[1123] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
Verisimilidude 005
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:58:00 -
[1124] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
Verisimilidude 006
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 18:59:00 -
[1125] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
Verisimilidude 007
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:01:00 -
[1126] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
Verisimilidude 008
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:02:00 -
[1127] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
Obil Que
Star Explorers Reckoning Star Alliance
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:02:00 -
[1128] - Quote
Dersen Lowery wrote:Obil Que wrote:I am admittedly far from engaging in cap combat and this change seems mostly significantly impacting that level of wormhole space. I don't forsee it affecting significantly life in sub-capital wormhole space short of the occasional lost Orca for those groups caught in the process without proper support. I'm trying not to play the game of "it doesn't affect me so who cares". Wormhole space is perhaps the only space in EVE where any element of randomness exists. This change does enter some before untouched territory with regards to how that randomness affects in game play. I never loved wormhole space for its safety. We ran sites with holes wide open and posted scouts on them so that if someone was coming, we had time to see if we needed to reship or if we could take them with the fleet we had. I'm just saying that so that it's clear that safety and predictability are not features to me, not in J-space. The problem with this proposed feature is that it trades one kind of predictability for another kind, which reliably favors large fleets of smaller ships and which very nearly requires them for closing large holes, and; it introduces a new kind of safety and predictability in that you'll be able to jump through a WH and be 100% sure that the hole can't decloak you on the other side. If it were just increased randomness, I'd be fine with it. I said as much in the Dev Blog thread. At least that would be more hassle for everyone, instead of directly incentivizing larger fleets.
I agree. I think this is where the end result is. Larger fully capable gank fleets flown by the larger PvP entities who, instead of rolling holes, now jump the chain looking for targets. It doesn't have to be a blob fest per se, just a fleet capable of dealing with the site runners it is likely to come across. The fleet that can, with a degree of speed, complete their dscan sweep and warp before the site runner can notice the new signature and get his fleet into warp will get kills. This is not entirely a bad thing for EvE (roaming fleets) but unless more is done to provide incentive to the site runners, an uptick in ganking will inevitably result in a comparable decrease in site runners with the obvious chain reaction effect. This is far more the result of the K162 changes that PvP corps have been begging for than anything else. I only hope that it has the effect they desire in the long term.
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Verisimilidude 009
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:04:00 -
[1129] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
Verisimilidude 010
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:05:00 -
[1130] - Quote
As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. |
|
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2101
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:07:00 -
[1131] - Quote
Verisimilidude 010 wrote:As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001.
How adorable! The wormhole ISK farmer is multiboxing his posts in 100% safety too. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:13:00 -
[1132] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Verisimilidude 010 wrote:As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001. How adorable! The wormhole ISK farmer is multiboxing his posts in 100% safety too. Yeah, his first post he's referring to turned into a joke the moment he used all his alts to farm the forum thread. Verisimilidude 001 actually said something that could have mattered, then the clones filed in... |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:32:00 -
[1133] - Quote
Verisimilidude 001 wrote: Farming groups are net-negative because they can be rage-rolled into and have no idea they're about to get jumped, with no way to defend against it. This will likely change the ISK:Effort ratio enough to favor moving out of wormholes, which creates less content for everyone else.
So for the last 6 months there was everyone complaining about those farmers and how they added nothing to wormholes. Esp since the NPC API data was taken away. Now all of a sudden everyone wants to keep them because they are content? Being ok with the proposed changes or not, but arguments should not be shifted around to fit your point every time. |
Dersen Lowery
Drinking in Station
1201
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:34:00 -
[1134] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:[quote=Dersen Lowery]I agree. I think this is where the end result is. Larger fully capable gank fleets flown by the larger PvP entities who, instead of rolling holes, now jump the chain looking for targets. It doesn't have to be a blob fest per se, just a fleet capable of dealing with the site runners it is likely to come across. The fleet that can, with a degree of speed, complete their dscan sweep and warp before the site runner can notice the new signature and get his fleet into warp will get kills. This is not entirely a bad thing for EvE (roaming fleets) but unless more is done to provide incentive to the site runners, an uptick in ganking will inevitably result in a comparable decrease in site runners with the obvious chain reaction effect. This is far more the result of the K162 changes that PvP corps have been begging for than anything else. I only hope that it has the effect they desire in the long term.
Also, the new emphasis will be on ganks. Not that we never ganked anyone, but we prided ourselves on taking straight brawls, often out-shipped or out-numbered, but always in relatively small engagements. If we rolled into some huge corp whose fleet we had no chance against, we'd roll the dice and try to flash-crash our static. If that gambit failed, welp. Not much we can do about 50 T3s backed by 8 Guardians.
We've moved out of J-space for now due to a significant lull in activity, but I liked it enough that I have an eye to going back. But I have no interest whatsoever in joining a large corp, and I don't see much future in trying to be the small corp we were if this goes live. Which is a pity, because all of the other WH changes are awesome. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1080
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 19:49:00 -
[1135] - Quote
Verisimilidude 010 wrote:As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001.
While I appreciate your loyalty to your clone, I do think that you should explain to him the difference between rolling and trolling, maybe he read the posts wrong.
The problem with off the wall "Curabitur mauris vespertilionem" suggestions is that some manager might just think them a good idea.
This one was particularly dangerous as until you read half way through one does not release the full "Curabitur mauris vespertilionem" contained within.
Good latin knowledge is a useful thing. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.19 20:25:00 -
[1136] - Quote
Verisimilidude 003 wrote:As an active member of a large wormhole corporation, I fully endorse the position taken by my esteemed corpmate, Verisimilidude 001, and could not more-strongly recommend his suggested changes to the devs as a more-viable alternative than their current plan.
This post was in no way coerced or subsidized by possibly the most intelligent person I know, Verisimilidude 001.
.......sigh........ So Much Space |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 04:02:00 -
[1137] - Quote
Even with the updated version of this change it still makes it a lot harder for small corps to exercise hole control (pre-emprive rolling away from an entity that outnumbers you).
Defensive rolling is probably the only mechanic which effectively keeps blobbing tactics from being abused in wormhole space. This is what Fozzie isn't getting. If small corps can't do anything about their connection to a larger hostile entity with reasonable amount of risk then this change is making w-space more like nullsec without cynos.
Even with current mechanics a lot of times there's nothing to be done except POS up and log. But at least there were times when you could drain the connection of a lot of mass or roll it entirely with a reasonable amount of risk if you were fast on the draw. Now with the updated change it still looks like rolling = much greater risk of losing the rolling ship(s) and free killmails for anyone camping the hole.
Most people deal with grids where the mechanics offer free kills by simply not showing up.
I want more small gang fights, but WH corps come in all shapes and sizes... it was hole rolling and mass draining that evened the odds between corps and alliances of different size. Just don't understand why CCP wants to fuq with this mechanic. Unless the idea was initiated by a blue doughnut CSM |
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 08:43:00 -
[1138] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:
Adapt or die. Wormhole space truly only is friendly to smaller groups when they can exercise adequate hole control. It isn't like 300 where a small force is controlling a point of entry, it is entirely based on the concept of isolation and awareness (for both the small group and dedicated farming groups). That isolation is specifically being targeted. Those small and farming groups that can adapt to this more random space through applied effort to close holes and increased awareness of randoms will continue to exist, those that do not...
You seem to always concern yourself ONLY with the small picture. Have you not read at all the many posts about WH space eco-balance ? As you yourself basically said, the number of smaller sized groups that live in WH space will decrease because some won't be able to adapt.
Since large WH based entities are mainly concerned with PVP (not a one will dismiss promising pew opportunity for a chance of bearing), their activity levels will go down threefold: - because of the increase in hole rolling time (main source of WH pvp; no such thing currently as roaming fleets in WHs) - because of the decrease in number of possible medium and small targets - because of the added home-field advantage this change gives the defenders in a equal pilot numbers 'fair' fight (as if home field advantage is not enough of a deterrent already);
As someone already pointed out there is an existing trend for large WH entities to seek null pew instead of WH pew because of the ease with witch the first can be found compared to the second. I consider this a bad trend and the spawn distance change will only make it worse. I see WH space slowly becoming exclusively the land of Null roamers that only base out of WHs while not actually 'living' there. Many people that love current WH life, maybe even as far as considering it the eve 'endgame'(like myself), will be sorely disappointed. Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
227
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 12:31:00 -
[1139] - Quote
Silly CCP, ofcourse you design by vote, in eve it's practically tradition by this point. Luckily for you most people think that their vote is a silly +1 or a passionate/logical argument on the forums. It's not ofcourse.
The real votes are each player's subscriptions so in a way they are paid votes, just like a real democracy. The more money you put into the system the more say you have. That's why nullsec has so much say, they have more votes.
Regardless I for one, and it seems some others as well, are tired of being bullied by CCP Fozzy. Tired of being ignored and treated like we don't know the space we tamed.
I am ready to cast my vote. I am unsubscribing my alt I spent a year training specifically for wormholes. Yea yea, I can hear all you trolls but here's the secret, there are thousand of wh mains and alts. If half of them unsubbed because of this change Fozzy is so hellbent on implementing who do you think CCP is going to blame?
The players for not appreciating the glorious vision of Fozzy? lol. CCP is going to be out a lot of cash and they will want answers. If Fozzy won't listen to reason or experience then he will listen to our wallets because we tried being reasonable.
Remember when you unsub to specifically state why. Give a link to this thread and clearly state that it is this change and the refusal of Fozzy to stand down from his bully tactics as the reason for the unsub.
People think it was the shooting at the monument that did it, and CCP had encouraged that thinking, but it was the huge amount of unsubs that kicked them into action. We might not be legion, but we are many. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 16:35:00 -
[1140] - Quote
Looking at the updated distance vs. mass numbers in the devblog, I can say with absolute certainty that when you're talking about a half billion + isk ship (Orca) or multi-billion ship (Caps), its a deal-breaker, plain and simple, to lose the ship to randomly spawning too far out of jump range.
Yeah recruit sub-cap support, yeah use cheaper battleships, yeah yeah etc. But maybe I just wanna roam with 3 or 4 of my friends and we can't field support to roll a hole away from a hostile system that regularly sees 10-20 dudes log in. Maybe I just want to choose my fights and find another group we're on a more even keel with.
This change is gonna make it a whole lot harder to do that efficiently and with acceptable risk. Its gonna come down to POSing up and logging or accepting the likelihood that we'll get backstab blobbed while scouting other chains and put on the pod express back to empire. I don't pay subscription money for choices like that.
And it really doesn't make a difference if your Orca or cap has an 80% chance or a 50% chance or a 25% chance or x% chance of spawning 6-9 km out of jump range. Unless you're stupid rich you won't be committing anything more than BSs to roll - and BSs take time unless you got 10 - 20 dudes and coordination. That's the very definition of small corp killing changes. Unless you can kill that hole fast you're stuck with it, gg thx for playing logoff at POS and (not) see you tomorrow. Wow really loving that content - not.
If there's even a 10% chance you'll land an Orca or cap 6 - 9 km out of jump range and collapsing the hole, you can bet every isk in your wallet the opposition is gonna have web Loki's and bumping boats on grid and you can kiss those billion isk rolling ships goodbye. I mean WTF, why not just put stargates in wormholes, its effectively the same thing from the decision-making standpoint.
This change combined with all the additional random wormhole connections... I'm just feeling the creep of null-seccing wormhole space. Nullsec is all about having to deal with a static environment that you cannot do anything about. Power projection mechanics can end your tenure in null at any time. You either play (pay) by the rules laid by the sov holders and the large coalitions or you get burned out.
Wormhole space *was* unique because of the ability of players to exercise control over where their w-space home system led to. Its a player-influenced dynamic environment. If anything CCP should be giving us more options to exercise more control over our environment. But Hyperion is gonna turn w-space into a dynamic environment that many if not most players will be unable to do much about. And that to my mind, is not much better than nullsec and is heading in the direction of making w-space like nullsec.
What I wanted to see happen was for there to always be ONE open wormhole exiting to somewhere in New Eden from every w-space system. Just an automated spawn with a connecting K162 and randomly selected if multiple statics or random wormholes are present. That way it would be impossible to completely seal off your system to just farm endlessly. BUT, players would be allowed to INFLUENCE or CHOOSE what systems your w-space system would connect to for the day. THAT is what I wanted, not this. |
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Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 16:45:00 -
[1141] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Silly CCP, ofcourse you design by vote, in eve it's practically tradition by this point. Luckily for you most people think that their vote is a silly +1 or a passionate/logical argument on the forums. It's not ofcourse.
The real votes are each player's subscriptions so in a way they are paid votes, just like a real democracy. The more money you put into the system the more say you have. That's why nullsec has so much say, they have more votes.
Regardless I for one, and it seems some others as well, are tired of being bullied by CCP Fozzy. Tired of being ignored and treated like we don't know the space we tamed.
I am ready to cast my vote. I am unsubscribing my alt I spent a year training specifically for wormholes. Yea yea, I can hear all you trolls but here's the secret, there are thousand of wh mains and alts. If half of them unsubbed because of this change Fozzy is so hellbent on implementing who do you think CCP is going to blame?
The players for not appreciating the glorious vision of Fozzy? lol. CCP is going to be out a lot of cash and they will want answers. If Fozzy won't listen to reason or experience then he will listen to our wallets because we tried being reasonable.
Remember when you unsub to specifically state why. Give a link to this thread and clearly state that it is this change and the refusal of Fozzy to stand down from his bully tactics as the reason for the unsub.
People think it was the shooting at the monument that did it, and CCP had encouraged that thinking, but it was the huge amount of unsubs that kicked them into action. We might not be legion, but we are many. I dont know how true the rumours are regarding issues with new player retention but I dont think CCP will be appreciative of losing a few thousand steady veteran accounts and alts because 'change lol' that in no way will help get new players into the game. While I do appreciate your argument, its not going to work for me. I buy gametime in blocks. I can't unsub the instant this change hits and cash out the remaining time in the form of PLEX. If I could, I most certainly would. But that causes other issues. So being violently opposed to CCP Fozzy ignoring our outrage does nothing. I can't deny them the income alreay paid for, I can't do anything in game that would be meaningful to the entities that are failing us, I feel like our CSM and CCP as a whole is failing this community with us having no appreciable means to respond. But I guess thats where all the RMT sales of accounts and other illegal actions come from, because there isn't any means to ethically or legally (in-game) retort these kinds of actions. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1955
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 20:30:00 -
[1142] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them.
The Rules: 12. Spamming is prohibited.
Spam is defined as the repetitive posting of the same topic or nonsensical post that has no substance and is often designed to annoy other forum users. This can include the words GÇ£firstGÇ¥, GÇ£go back to (insert other game name)GÇ¥ and other such posts that contribute no value to forum discussion. Spamming also includes the posting of ASCII art within a forum post. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
230
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 21:31:00 -
[1143] - Quote
Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
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epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1083
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 23:08:00 -
[1144] - Quote
Obil Que wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Rroff wrote:I dunno why people focus so much on the risk factor - sure when there is someone to take advantage of that window of vulnerability there is an extra risk factor there but by and large when people are collapsing wormholes there simply isn't anyone there or anyone in an immediate position to take advantage of that. Sure sometimes people roll in the face of entities that they couldn't deal with, occasionally an orca gets away, etc. but as general life in wormholes go those are edge cases.
This change will also tend to strengthen the need to be part of a larger entity and in a small but not insignificant way errode wormholes towards being more like nullsec by reducing the ability to manipulate wormhole space so as you aren't forced to engage larger entities on an open battlefield which tends to more often than not come down to a pure numbers game.
The changes that are needed IMO would be to firstly incentivise people not to collapse in the first place (i.e. random chance to spawn higher value NPCs or containers/items in sites if the static is healthy, etc.) and then maybe a change to the final shrink whereby it becomes some sort of "weak" non-static wormhole for a limited time without holding the static open or introducing needless delays. (Not really a fan of that kind of mechanic but there is some intermediate potential there maybe). Yes, other incentives to encourage one not to need to close holes to seek combat, would be promising. But please understand, this is absolutely not just about risk factor, while increasing risk will affect the decision as to whether people roll holes or not, this proposal goes way way beyond that. The risk is not that you may encounter more opposition, or harder battles, it is whether you randomly get dropped into a position where NOTHING can save you. That cannot be mitigated against by fitting skill or tactics. THAT is what is so greatly concerning. If CCP ONLY wanted to increase risk, and encourage combat, then they could have simply said that capitals would jump 5km outside of the range they could jump back and as the hole was destabilised by such a large mass then all the ships that followed would land on the heavy ship. But no they wanted all the ships to spawn scattered randomly across a wide sphere where some would end up easy victims. See the difference? I appreciate your position, truly. It does make me wonder, just as an academic exercise, what do you think wormhole residents, and specifically cap pilots, would be like today if this mechanic had been in place from the inception of wormholes. Would this even be an issue? Would we simply see wormhole space as one where you do not jump caps into hostile holes? Would the inevitable blueballing presence of a cap fleet on a home hole simply have been the death of high-end wormhole combat? I am admittedly far from engaging in cap combat and this change seems mostly significantly impacting that level of wormhole space. I don't forsee it affecting significantly life in sub-capital wormhole space short of the occasional lost Orca for those groups caught in the process without proper support. I'm trying not to play the game of "it doesn't affect me so who cares". Wormhole space is perhaps the only space in EVE where any element of randomness exists. This change does enter some before untouched territory with regards to how that randomness affects in game play. By a similar token though, many players ask specifically for randomness in their PvE content. It is entirely possible that such random elements could result in no-win situations for a given pilot if they had chosen to enter into that environment with a less than capable ship for all possible outcomes. Is that all that different than a cap pilot rolling the dice jumping into a mechanic that they know as the possibility of being a no-win outcome, especially since that outcome is entirely player dependent at that point by requiring a hostile force engage the cap before it returns through the hole.
In reply to the question what would be the state currently if this mechanic had been in place since the beginning.
The answer is quite simple, there would be fewer subscribers than currently.
No one appreciates playing a game that has lost the core concept of eve, which Hilmar understood with the loss of his first thorax, that eve is real and the results are as a direct consequence of our actions.
Not "opps bad luck didn't really matter anyway did it?" There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
DirtyJob
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 23:12:00 -
[1145] - Quote
Shame that WH space even in higher tiers wormholes will become less welcoming to smaller groups. Shame that CCP is stubborn with mechanics of change (chance and mass based) instead of adding come speed/tactic flavor for sub-caps.
I just hope that if data will prove most of us right CCP will revert change. If we were mostly wrong then it is even better for game. It is me being naive but hope die last.
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Kirasten
No Vacancies
39
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 23:16:00 -
[1146] - Quote
Hatshepsut IV wrote:Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing.
I have heard under good authority that if this thread reaches 80 pages that ccp will realize they are making a mistake with this change and postpone this change until after they can see the effects of the other changes |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1083
|
Posted - 2014.08.20 23:20:00 -
[1147] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing. I have heard under good authority that if this thread reaches 80 pages that ccp will realize they are making a mistake with this change and postpone this change until after they can see the effects of the other changes
Well there's over 30 pages on the thread they locked before opening this. that's one way of keeping it below 80. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 00:54:00 -
[1148] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Kirasten wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing. I have heard under good authority that if this thread reaches 80 pages that ccp will realize they are making a mistake with this change and postpone this change until after they can see the effects of the other changes Well there's over 30 pages on the thread they locked before opening this. that's one way of keeping it below 80. I honestly don't think the devs give a damn about how many posts we make. What's the point? I can't even unsub in a reasonable amount of time to show my outrage cause I buy my time in blocks. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
230
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 01:33:00 -
[1149] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Kirasten wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:Posting in this thread now is basically the same as scanning a dead wormhole. It goes/does nowhere/nothing. I have heard under good authority that if this thread reaches 80 pages that ccp will realize they are making a mistake with this change and postpone this change until after they can see the effects of the other changes Well there's over 30 pages on the thread they locked before opening this. that's one way of keeping it below 80. I honestly don't think the devs give a damn about how many posts we make. What's the point? I can't even unsub in a reasonable amount of time to show my outrage cause I buy my time in blocks. Actually you can unsub even if you have say 3 or 6 months time left. your account will only go inactive at the end of that timeblock but most importantly as I said in a post that I cant seem to find now, you can give a reason why you are unsubbing. kinda like a vote.
I hope this post was helpfull to my fellow forum users and in no way spamming or ranting. |
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
21
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 03:37:00 -
[1150] - Quote
"Ranting"?
Dear CCP, Thanks for ignoring your player base we don't want this change.
My group, just had the meeting about what were going to do after the change, when we cant control the wormhole against the blobs. We war gamed, tested the stuff on the test server blah blah blah. This sucks, we enjoyed being able to fight and play the game in the small gangs having access to all the eve regions Etc blah blah. We know you don't care, we know Fozzie is gonna push this regardless of we say. It doesn't take rocket science, just look at the number of posts.
Next time, don't bother with a forum, when your going to chop the rants, complaints, and relevant suggestions, and have an end state of doing whatever your going to do no matter what people say. Remember we are your consumers, and frankly after this "customer Service" your giving us, you may need to look at getting some better management before you kill your product and have to find a new job.
Eh, this is going to fall on def ears , so i will close with this, blah blah blah and the mine craft server will be good to go. contact me in game for address
Derpy Derp derp. Good luck
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LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 06:37:00 -
[1151] - Quote
I don't see why people feel the need to rant aimlessly about this change and the lack of response from CCP. Personally I am also a little miffed that we have not heard of any intent on their part to negate this change nor has fozzie posted to let us know he is listening and working on plans to respond to our feedback. However, looking back on times similar to this, CCP has listened to our feedback in the past and will once again, it's only a matter of time before we see another post from fozzie with an update on the changes.
I also agree with the delaying of this change for the record, I feel that with hyperion coming in 5 days and this change not being refined and ready yet that more time should be added for discussion and updating the planned change. It is a very dramatic change that will have rippling effects across the entire wormhole community, such a change should not be taken lightly. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 07:17:00 -
[1152] - Quote
LT Alter wrote:Personally I am also a little miffed that we have not heard of any intent on their part to negate this change nor has fozzie posted to let us know he is listening and working on plans to respond to our feedback. However, looking back on times similar to this, CCP has listened to our feedback in the past and will once again, it's only a matter of time before we see another post from fozzie with an update on the changes.
It was pretty clear listening to the w-space CSM town hall that Fozzie thinks this change is one of those "for the good of the game" type of changes. He specifically expressed disapproval of the idea of rolling all the wormholes in a system and sealing it off for farming. So I suspect this change and a couple of others are being patched in specifically to "deal" with that.
The question of course is, at what cost?
Pretty sure the response from lower-class w-space is going to consist of yet more "parking lot" systems with two sigs and 200+ anoms. Oh and the usual nothin' on dscan except zombie sticks and quad stabbed epithals. Yay they didn't nerf PI. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1083
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 10:27:00 -
[1153] - Quote
Ok detailed analysis and discussions of this change seem to be too complicated to get a response, if this hits the mark then anyone who is actually interested can go back and read ALL of them, and there are many,
So let's reduce it almost to the point of ad absurdum.
1.Jumping throught to close a wormhole, Gives hostile defenders a significant advantage, and Luck is the deciding factor of whether attackers can reduce or increase that.
2.One cannot jump an overwhelming force in due to mass limits, unless one goes all in and closes the hole behind you. Either Total Victory or Total defeat results, No reinforcements can be brought in by the attacker. Defender can flood the field.
3. 1 still applies.
4. Mexican standoff results with both determined not to jump through to the defenders side.
So in short, why on earth would one even think to try with this new change? Sure Brave is one thing but playing like an imbecile is quite another.
So please explain how this will benefit PVP in any way, because if bashing POS to the ground consistantly, every hour, of every day, seems to be the only PVP it would encorage, as there would be little else available other than randomly troling around looking for ganks?
Fighting on the hole will be an activity that becomes a thing of the past and of ancient legend. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
jonnykefka
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
285
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 12:42:00 -
[1154] - Quote
Coming back to this after the rest of the hyperion dev blogs, it's even more frustrating. If not for this one change, this expansion would be one of the best since Apocrypha. This one change ruins it, not because it makes things dangerous, not because it shakes up our "secure" site-running methods, but because it makes things tedious.
That's all. It makes things tedious. Motoring back to the wormhole in a capital ship every time we want to find something to do isn't good gameplay. It's tedium. It's waiting. it's mining. However often it will lead to fights, there will be a thousand more times it just adds five minutes to an otherwise simple and quick procedure.
Fozzie, I have a challenge for you. Take a few devs into some unoccupied corner of w-space after the patch. Go find something to do. Seriously. Start from a C5 with a C5 static and go find other players, or a k-link, or something more interesting than open dead space. See how long it takes you with the new rolling mechanics. See how much fun you have scanning down a long chain of nothing. See how far you get before it would take more trouble to get your fleet to that location than it would to start over and move your home system somewhere else.
Because that's what rolling is. We're moving our home system. We're finding a better, more interesting part of space. We will still be able to do that, but my god will it be even more tedious. I don't have unlimited playtime, and wasting it watching a carrier slowly crawl over 10km, or do two unnecessary warps, is not my idea of a good time, and I don't think stopping people from slamming the door as easily is worth that trade-off.
So, Fozzie, come to w-space, and see how much more "fun" this change makes things. |
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 17:39:00 -
[1155] - Quote
This maybe considered a bit of a troll
but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.
Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous
X up ....
wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x
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Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 18:59:00 -
[1156] - Quote
Jack Marshal wrote:This maybe considered a bit of a troll
but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.
Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous
X up ....
wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x
And every player who thinks that those ubercoalitions have lost their edge as player-made content-generators and small groups need more love, "Z" up.
so,
Z |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:04:00 -
[1157] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:LT Alter wrote:Personally I am also a little miffed that we have not heard of any intent on their part to negate this change nor has fozzie posted to let us know he is listening and working on plans to respond to our feedback. However, looking back on times similar to this, CCP has listened to our feedback in the past and will once again, it's only a matter of time before we see another post from fozzie with an update on the changes. It was pretty clear listening to the w-space CSM town hall that Fozzie thinks this change is one of those "for the good of the game" type of changes. He specifically expressed disapproval of the idea of rolling all the wormholes in a system and sealing it off for farming. So I suspect this change and a couple of others are being patched in specifically to "deal" with that. The question of course is, at what cost? Pretty sure the response from lower-class w-space is going to consist of yet more "parking lot" systems with two sigs and 200+ anoms. Oh and the usual nothin' on dscan except zombie sticks and quad stabbed epithals. Yay they didn't nerf PI. I'll say it again, just make every w-space system have at least one open connection at all times but let players choose their connections. Then take this change out to the trash heap along with the more random/frig/impossible to roll wormhole changes. We want more player control over w-space and more small corp friendly environments with danger and risk that can be tuned to the interests of the corp. Make rolling holes more integral to w-space, not less. For example let large PvP corps roll to sov null, npc null, lowsec/FW systems or C4-6 holes. Let small PvP corps roll to lowsec, C3's & 4's, and FW low. Indy corps can roll to empty low/high/w-space connections for mining/ratting and dedicated hunters who find them through these connections will have earned their kills. Buff site values for lower class wormholes (esp. C1/2) to compensate for the increased risk of being ganked. Just let players have more control over their connecting systems not less and this additional freedom will make a lot of folks happy. My friends with industry characters have already moved to a C1 with a highsec static. My friends who enjoy PVP have a C3 static, so lots of chances for pew pew either from the C3 itself or from the commonplace connections to lowsec through those C3s. Some of this has already been dealt with, hence those two groups moving to have those access points.
Only downside with lowsec lately is the 15 man Ishtar fleets with logi support. What I find hilarious is that's also one of the problems with fights in W-space lately. The last potentially decent fight we spotted turned into a situation where we were again outnumbered, it was to a small fight (5 ships looking for some pew) and the enemy felt they needed to respond with a 10 man Ishtar and Gila fleet. Only difference was it had a triage carrier in support, not 5 Scimitars. At that point it goes from being a challange to being impossible to find a good fight. The FC tells the remainder of the fleet to hang back so only a few ships and pods are lost because what started as close to an even fight turned into being outnumbered (based on a scout with D--scan) 3 to 1 with a logi carrier supporting.
Small corps are already struggling in WH space. I think this change, as of the last time CCP Fozzie spoke of it, is going to be the final nail in our coffin for PVP. If this goes through, yeah, I think it's time to unsub all my accounts. Maybe a wave of 8 sub losses won't mean anything to CCP, but if enough of us do it, maybe some accountant somewhere will say something cause they sure aren't listening to us here. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:20:00 -
[1158] - Quote
Katerin Archer wrote:Jack Marshal wrote:This maybe considered a bit of a troll
but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.
Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous
X up ....
wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x
And every player who thinks that those ubercoalitions have lost their edge as player-made content-generators and small groups need more love, "Z" up. so, Z Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
149
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:27:00 -
[1159] - Quote
Jack Marshal wrote:This maybe considered a bit of a troll
but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.
Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous
X up ....
wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x
I'll put 2b on 30 days after Hyperion is released. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:27:00 -
[1160] - Quote
Jack Marshal wrote:"Ranting"?
Dear CCP, Thanks for ignoring your player base we don't want this change.[...]
Apparently saying the same thing about hating a change CCP is forcing down our throats has now been redefined as a rant. I'm not entirely sure what to make of this.
I've seen the gratuitous spams removed, all but the original post connected with that spam was left intact. Now I want to see what was so threatening they decided to labet is as a rant and delete the person's post outright. Also, they don't appear to let anyone know if/when a post gets deleted, it's just wiped away, like a 1960s president's mistress, and the issue is "disappeared" from existence. |
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Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 23:05:00 -
[1161] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.
Rather than you read the last few posts and post a pointless reply, perform some search next time before claiming that we haven't given any reasoned arguments? |
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
28
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 23:53:00 -
[1162] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Katerin Archer wrote:Jack Marshal wrote:This maybe considered a bit of a troll
but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.
Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous
X up ....
wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x
And every player who thinks that those ubercoalitions have lost their edge as player-made content-generators and small groups need more love, "Z" up. so, Z Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.
We have been, and I have, roll back and start reading the forums Its called Sarcasm (ill simplify it for you) The point i was actual making was that after post after post of reasons why, in an easy to read format stating the problem, not only by me but many many others.
BTW whats your main toon, This is mine and i don't bother to hide using alts. Man up, (even if you a chick)
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
231
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 23:57:00 -
[1163] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Jack Marshal wrote:"Ranting"?
Dear CCP, Thanks for ignoring your player base we don't want this change.[...]
Apparently saying the same thing about hating a change CCP is forcing down our throats has now been redefined as a rant. I'm not entirely sure what to make of this. I've seen the gratuitous spams removed, all but the original post connected with that spam was left intact. Now I want to see what was so threatening they decided to labet is as a rant and delete the person's post outright. Also, they don't appear to let anyone know if/when a post gets deleted, it's just wiped away, like a 1960s president's mistress, and the issue is "disappeared" from existence. My post was deleted outright, not sure if thats the one you are referring to. I merely suggested that unsubbing with clear and concise reason (that little box they give you when you unsub) would be a good last-resort kind of indication to CCP that we are not happy with this proposed change as it seems that our feedback is not being received in the severity it is intended in this thread.
Especially with the Somer thing I bet a lot of people are going to be unsubbing over that (kinda ******** but gambling addiction is an actual thing) so we need to make sure that CCP gets a clear number of WH players not happy with this change.
ps I'm trying to be as clear, concise and friendly in this post so as not to break the same forum rules again. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 00:28:00 -
[1164] - Quote
Katerin Archer wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.
Rather than you read the last few posts and post a pointless reply, perform some search next time before claiming that we haven't given any reasoned arguments? I'm not stating you didn't give a reasoned argument. I'm asking that you not try to create spam in the form of folks posting a single letter like it's an "X up for fleet" response where this is a forum, not some chat channel. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 00:39:00 -
[1165] - Quote
Jack Marshal wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: Rather than the two of you asking people spam the forum by typing a letter to show they are here, how about some reasoned arguments about why these changes are going to affect things, how you think they will affect things, and give a little anecdotal evidence to support your arguments? That would at least not pad the thread with spam that requires ISD removal.
We have been, and I have, roll back and start reading the forums Its called Sarcasm (ill simplify it for you) The point i was actual making was that after post after post of reasons why, in an easy to read format stating the problem, not only by me but many many others. Yet Fozzie still forces this ******** feature on his little pod cast. BTW whats your main toon, This is mine and i don't bother to hide using alts. Man up, (even if you are a chick) Apparently I'm not the only one with issues reading. This is a forum thread, not a chat channel, and enough posts in the form of spam were deleted already. I've been posting in this thread for quite a while now. I've read every post on every page, relevant or not. I am not the one you should be arguing with, but I guess it's your only option as the real target of our anathema hasn't responded since page 27
Main character or not. I'm here because I have a stake in this conversation. That's not the issue here. Your taking something personally because I chose to remind you, and someone else, that this thread needs something other than invitations to spam. In case you missed the ISD's deletions of other strings of posts, we're being censored, so we're losing pages because someone isn't able to behave with a modicum of control. If I have to say it twice, to both parties who are asking for others to spam, am I the one unable to read and comprehend? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1084
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 13:19:00 -
[1166] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/news/patch-notes/patch-notes-for-hyperion?_ga=1.235259265.1420432876.1406240670 Well, what can be said.
We discovered it hidden on sisi, Really strong feedback that was detailed and rational. Some of it was by really respected wormhole players and corps. Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.
Fozzie made a cosmetic polish which took no account of the requests.
Now announced in patch notes with no contact in the feedback thread since the 16th.
So that is the system working?
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Winthorp
2610
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 13:35:00 -
[1167] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.
Yeah it was not "universal" at all. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1084
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 13:43:00 -
[1168] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.
Yeah it was not "universal" at all.
Agreed, there was you, sorry I forgot. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Winthorp
2610
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 14:10:00 -
[1169] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Winthorp wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.
Yeah it was not "universal" at all. Agreed, there was you, sorry I forgot. .
Yeah it was only me.... Sigh..
Please continue going full ******. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 15:18:00 -
[1170] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Yeah it was only me.... Sigh.. Please continue going full ******. No wonder with the quality posting you guys did on this continually repeating yourselves on how they shouldnt do it because it will stop you doing X and we have always done Y and we should also be allowed to do Z, you just don't understand CCP. This thread is literally 60 pages of WH people whining that they didn't get their own way in a game they should be stoked that the devs even take as much time as they do to communicate with us. I'm sure when gates in 0.0 have polarization and cynos give a mass based random chance for scatter placing your fleet of supers out of position of each other the Null crowd will have a 500 page thread of tears. In the meantime, please don't bother commenting on a sector of space you just visit briefly on the way back to your hovels out in the big blue donut. Unlike in Nullsec, most everyone in WH space is actively trying to kill you, not just exact tolls to cover Sov bills in exchange for blue status. |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1084
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 15:25:00 -
[1171] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Winthorp wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Universal rejection of the principles of the change Large, Medium and small all very against it, and the consensus was it was bad in every way for the game.
Yeah it was not "universal" at all. Agreed, there was you, sorry I forgot. . Yeah it was only me.... Sigh.. Please continue going full ******. No wonder with the quality posting you guys did on this continually repeating yourselves on how they shouldnt do it because it will stop you doing X and we have always done Y and we should also be allowed to do Z, you just don't understand CCP. This thread is literally 60 pages of WH people whining that they didn't get their own way in a game they should be stoked that the devs even take as much time as they do to communicate with us.
Of course, you have the right to ignore the full discourse and explanations as to the concerns and issues, I am sure you would not require the full reasoning in EVERY post, as that would make this thread a little long. Suffice to say they have been explained.
Funnily enough, our expectations of CCP is that they DO not ignore the full discourse and explanations. But it seems they are following your example. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
230
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 15:54:00 -
[1172] - Quote
Time spent communicating bad news is still bad news received.
You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
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Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 17:09:00 -
[1173] - Quote
I do find it interesting that, outside of collapsing wormholes, I never expected an Orca to have any function that involved leaving the shields of a POS. More important, I never saw much point in having one because it was a 3/4 billion ISK door closer. I lived in a C3 for 18 months, and lost several battleships while trying to close holes so "safe" activities would be performed. The relative risk versus reward for me caused a lot of logging off to wait for things to close from time instead of forcing them closed with mass. Otherwise I just see more situations where suddenly there are large gank fleets hunting the small crew we had living there, as the WH sites didn't support many people.
C3s are like the superhighways of the lower class WH system, and its not uncommon to have logged into a mess of 6 wormholes open and active, none near End of Life. There is no way a small corp can place enough tripwires on all those holes and still have anything close to safe site running. So while trying to roll those holes to mitigate some of the risk, ships were lost. It's just part of the game. Rather than try, its easier to log out and wait. This means other games just became useful to play in the downtime, and EVE hits the back burner yet again.
Recent I moved a character from that C3 into a C5. That lifestyle is vastly different than my C3 experience was. I'm not risking a billion ISK ship solo. We, as a fleet, are risking 50 billion ISK worth of ships. Do you think closing all the wormholes makes a lot more sense in that case? As a rule, no capitals leave a POS unless we are a) are running sites with a system that has been secured, or b) trying to defend our WH from siege.
One dread does get used as part of the rolling group if the scouts deem that activity safe, but the current changes are going to force longer waits to roll holes, longer times rolling holes, and near suicidal risk when doing that activity for a dread should things go amiss. More than one time we encountered someone hiding a cloaked dictor by the hole, waiting to snag our dread.
With the changes as they are stated, we will have to wait until our entire fleet is available to roll these same holes using battleships, and in not an insignificant number of cases one pilot will be left behind on the wrong side of the hole due to the mass variance. That was the main reason for using a battleship, orca, and dreadnought. This change, using lower mass ships, results in a higher loss of ships on the wrong side of those holes just by virtue of random luck, and in many cases the ship and pilot's pod will be destroyed attempting to return to either highsec or the wormhole. This removes a pilot and ship from the wormhole for later use even if they do survive being stranded.
Does CCP expect all wormhole pilots to have extra accounts going to ensure we have enough alts to roll these holes, lose the prescribed random number of ships, and then try to go on with business as usual? I know some folks who will still live in wormholes after these changes. But most are wealthy enough to absorb such losses without much care. Losing even a few T1 battleships and low value pilots' pods would be nothing compared with the earning from a few hours of site running. But some folks don't have multiple billions set aside for a rainy day. |
Siliya
Upworldly Mobile The Void Collective
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 17:31:00 -
[1174] - Quote
Honestly why did CCP not just tell us that the "Requested" feedback would be ignored ... it would have saved us so much time and effort
don't give us the illusion of limited control, that's one of the best ways to **** off your consumers
also has anyone else drawn the conclusion about the recent DDoS Attacks ? it seems pretty logical that they are in protest to the wormhole changes
I'm still amazed that in the beginning of the town hall meeting someone asked again "Why don't you do this to Cyno's" and he was hushed up and the question was ignored
so far the Wormhole CSM has either A) not done his job properly and flat ignored the player base that is screaming about this change B) is being screwed just like the res of us
Id like to believe its B but from the Lack of communication I'm inclined to believe its A
apparently people have been Sold on the fact that "some people in wormholes want this" I find this questionable since the only groups that could POSSIBLY benefit from this are Hard Knocks, Lazerhawks or some of the other massive Wormhole groups, and even they have stepped up and said they don't want this, I personally believe we are being fed a big bowl of troll soup by CCP on this issue, the only thing I cannot figure out is who is doing the pooping (since it rolls downhill), the CSM, or Fozzie
we as a community have said repeatedly "We don't want this" my opinion is that you as a company have said "We don't want you" with your lack of Communication and blatant disregard for the Community desires or feedback
oh look you modified the distance ..yay ... as has been said before 20,14,10 its all the same thing at that point when it comes to caps or Orcas, you've tried to fix an open artery with a bandied and everyone in the community sees it for what it really is .. an insult
This game is Touted as skill and ability based .. this level of RNG has no place in this game
There have been many challenges for you to come live in a hole and try to live with these changes and I personally don't believe you have the huts-pah to do it
Just as I was writing this post we had to combat close a hole in the face of an overwhelming force from Aztec Inc. there was some pew pew but no losses ... if this was post patch ... when we saw them coming we would more than likely just have PoS'ed up and gone to play WoT or Minecraft for the rest of the day and there would have been no engagement at all.. and yes we had plenty of time to do so
if that is what CCP Believes is for the "Good of the game" then I must again question their level of intelligence when it comes to running a game
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 18:43:00 -
[1175] - Quote
LT Alter wrote: My friends with industry characters have already moved to a C1 with a highsec static. My friends who enjoy PVP have a C3 static, so lots of chances for pew pew either from the C3 itself or from the commonplace connections to lowsec through those C3s. Some of this has already been dealt with, hence those two groups moving to have those access points.
Only downside with lowsec lately is the 15 man Ishtar fleets with logi support. What I find hilarious is that's also one of the problems with fights in W-space lately. The last potentially decent fight we spotted turned into a situation where we were again outnumbered, it was to a small fight (5 ships looking for some pew) and the enemy felt they needed to respond with a 10 man Ishtar and Gila fleet. Only difference was it had a triage carrier in support, not 5 Scimitars. At that point it goes from being a challange to being impossible to find a good fight. The FC tells the remainder of the fleet to hang back so only a few ships and pods are lost because what started as close to an even fight turned into being outnumbered (based on a scout with D--scan) 3 to 1 with a logi carrier supporting.
Small corps are already struggling in WH space. I think this change, as of the last time CCP Fozzie spoke of it, is going to be the final nail in our coffin for PVP. If this goes through, yeah, I think it's time to unsub all my accounts. Maybe a wave of 8 sub losses won't mean anything to CCP, but if enough of us do it, maybe some accountant somewhere will say something cause they sure aren't listening to us here.
It is going to be another nail in the coffin for small corps and small gang PvP when fighting outnumbered. I'm confident the metrics will show, after this change, that only the wealthy C5/6 entities will be rolling holes since they can defend their rolling ships.
For the rest of us, its already hard to justify sending orcas or caps to roll or drain mass out of a hostile connection. Yet it has to be done to avoid getting blobbed and force an even fight with a larger entity. You need to pre-emptively crit the hole at least, or roll it. But why even try to combat roll with a small gang after this change when there's a good chance you're only gonna lose expensive rolling ships with nothing to show for it?
I guess if our opinions don't matter we're gonna end up spinning ships in the POS shield a whole lot more often.
And YES, Ishtar blobbing will dominate w-space PvP to an unprecedented degree. Even more than now.
Let's see: Cruiser mass ship with battleship DPS, check. No need to worry about the hole getting critted or combat rolled, check. No need to worry about getting stranded from behind by rolling, check. No real hard counters except another, bigger Ishtar blob, check. Now just add a coupla bump stabbers and web Lokis and catch poor sods in rolling caps and orcas who didn't read the dev blogs. Risk free if they get "unlucky". EZ kills, don't even need to jump through after them anymore. Check and check. |
Jack Marshal
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
28
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 19:33:00 -
[1176] - Quote
Ok well, Thats it
1158 Posts Later Large alliance's have posted this is a terrible Town hall meetings saying its bad Rants on the Tournament about wormhole space CSM's not being listened Especially the WH CSM (he has a job for a reason)
Well My group is moving out, Thanks Fozzy. Were too big to move to a smaller wormhole Were to small to move in to K-space.
If your a smaller groups understand you will not be able to roll your holes to get your stuff out you will not be able to roll your holes to get stuff in.
We cant afford a Cap replacement of pimp fit Carriers and dreads to throw away, we cant afford that when we cant roll holes to make money. We cant do anything a reasonable rational person would put at risk. we will no longer be able to defend our hole if were out numbered and we always are. We will have no game content when we can not find something to do.
You sir (Fozzie), have chosen to ignore everyone. Now its a simple lets wait and see what happens. The fact is They will not admit it was bad Idea now, even with the numbers come out in 30 days what makes you think they will listen then. Openly admitting that this a terrible idea, is not a CCP norm.
Sorry guys, looks like the end of the line for me. We will see in 30 days after this is forced through. I know they wont revert it, and frankly WH space doesnt play enough in to their numbers for them to obviously listen.
I really enjoyed eve since 2009. I don't want to F1 in nullsec. I enjoyed the great fights. No Holes, Aztec, LazerHawks you guys Do your thing enjoy have fun with Rage rolling becoming even more time consuming and tedious. I think more hours spent attempting to roll a hole is considered game content by Fozzie. Great job we had a good time, even though you rolled over us like a baby in the street with a steam roller. Any Fight that doesn't consist of me getting hot dropped by suppers is a good fight now a days.
I will look forward to CCP posting historical numbers, of cause and effect of this patch but they will not. It is a true shame.
Well Everything that has been said by some of the greatest subject matter experts in the game in wormhole space, the largest and most successful WH allainces and corps have said No. As these Groups conduct their exodus, so will we, some of the departures are posted some are not. I ran in to a corp today, as we were racing to combat close a worm hole me and +2 guys, as the pile of t-3's and logie with hate flavored ice cream landed on us, allowing us to have something to do later besides spin in a POS. My scout was cut off in the adjacent system, I spoke with them, the corp watching about the changes They said it will end their way of life. we spoke for about a half hour and we went on our separate ways such as wormhole life is or was.
No you cant have my stuff and if after 30 days this patch is not reverted, can i get my money back on my subscriptions?
Thanks for not listening to not only me but an entire community.
For you pilots going to fight the good, fight keep it up, Fly Dangerous and kill something
I believe I will probably find some thing else to occupy my time, something fun. Its not a big deal 10-20 pilots, and maybe 80 toons leaving, but hay when its no fun anymore. We will see what happens in 30 days, no i don't speak for all the people i fly with but yea that is the feeling across the board with my guys, were tired of K-space.
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 19:39:00 -
[1177] - Quote
Siliya wrote:
I'm still amazed that in the beginning of the town hall meeting someone asked again "Why don't you do this to Cyno's" and he was hushed up and the question was ignored
I listened to that -- it made me wonder if Dinsdale was right all along.
Siliya wrote: so far the Wormhole CSM has either A) not done his job properly and flat ignored the player base that is screaming about this change B) is being screwed just like the res of us
Id like to believe its B but from the Lack of communication I'm inclined to believe its A
I like Corbexx, I think he has the right ideas when it comes to w-space and is trying to understand lower class WH life better, but ultimately he's only a CSM. No real decision-making authority.
Siliya wrote: Apparently people have been Sold on the fact that "some people in wormholes want this" I find this questionable since the only groups that could POSSIBLY benefit from this are Hard Knocks, Lazerhawks or some of the other massive Wormhole groups, and even they have stepped up and said they don't want this, I personally believe we are being fed a big bowl of troll soup by CCP on this issue, the only thing I cannot figure out is who is doing the pooping (since it rolls downhill), the CSM, or Fozzie.
I don't have experience with C5/6 life, but from what I can see on the outside there could be a bandwagon effect, i.e. ppl joining HK, LH, or NoHo to become one with the blob rather than resist the changes. In the long run I don't think those folks will benefit. For sure it will be much harder/tedious to roll holes to secure a C5/6 for cap escalations, and engagements on nullsec holes will be more difficult to control if things escalate and its time to roll away. Null PvP may lose attractiveness depending on what ship & pod has to be "possibly sacrificed" to regain system control, and the finances of the WH entity.
The only REAL beneficiaries that I can see are nullbears, for obvious reasons.
|
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
813
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 19:59:00 -
[1178] - Quote
Siliya wrote:so far the Wormhole CSM has either A) not done his job properly and flat ignored the player base that is screaming about this change B) is being screwed just like the res of us
Id like to believe its B but from the Lack of communication I'm inclined to believe its A I think you will find it's B, the amount of work corbexx has but into trying to fight CCP with these changes is evident if you were actually at the meeting. Once CCP Fozzie left, it was up to corbexx to answer questions and he did a damn fine job. It is even him pushing for the reverse mass / distance spawn.
As already stated, he doesn't have much power in terms of decision making. But he does a fine job of telling them that they're screwing with smallers class groups. Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 20:41:00 -
[1179] - Quote
Katerin Archer wrote:Jack Marshal wrote:This maybe considered a bit of a troll
but hey, at the current time i am still paying to play the game. So entertain me.
Anyone From CCP If your Reading this do the Infamous
X up ....
wonder how many Days, if Ever we See an x
And every player who thinks that those ubercoalitions have lost their edge as player-made content-generators and small groups need more love, "Z" up. so, Z z |
Winthorp
2611
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 21:58:00 -
[1180] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: I'm sure when gates in 0.0 have polarization and cynos give a mass based random chance for scatter placing your fleet of supers out of position of each other the Null crowd will have a 500 page thread of tears. In the meantime, please don't bother commenting on a sector of space you just visit briefly on the way back to your hovels out in the big blue donut. Unlike in Nullsec, most everyone in WH space is actively trying to kill you, not just exact tolls to cover Sov bills in exchange for blue status.
If you ever bothered to stop by and discuss any WH mechanics/Ideas EVER you would know i live 100% in WH's and have done for a long time.
But i also post on my main unlike you who is scared of their own shadow. |
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Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 22:35:00 -
[1181] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: I'm sure when gates in 0.0 have polarization and cynos give a mass based random chance for scatter placing your fleet of supers out of position of each other the Null crowd will have a 500 page thread of tears. In the meantime, please don't bother commenting on a sector of space you just visit briefly on the way back to your hovels out in the big blue donut. Unlike in Nullsec, most everyone in WH space is actively trying to kill you, not just exact tolls to cover Sov bills in exchange for blue status.
If you ever bothered to stop by and discuss any WH mechanics/Ideas EVER you would know i live 100% in WH's and have done for a long time. But i also post on my main unlike you who is scared of their own shadow. Your name means nothing to me. Just as mine means nothing to you. If your arguments can't stand on their own, I see no point to paying you any more heed than any other troll or flamer or flaming troll or nullbear or whatever you want to not be called. You may have lived in a WH since 5 years before they existed. I don't care. But if you are actually trying to generate debate, avoiding BS quotes might help. Statements like:
Winthorp wrote:Please continue going full ******. Yeah. That. Makes you just look like the kind of horse's backside I've come to expect from any forum troll. So I'm simply responding to your own eloquence and wit in kind. Enjoy.
As to "posting on my main" you are damned presumptive that I even have a "main" in this game where the average player seems to have 3+ accounts. I am posting on the character I am most vocal on. If that sticks in your croup, good. Not like a siilent, nearly meaningless WH character that's a few years old and never once spoke in a forum means any more. But go ahead, try to say otherwise.
I just get all giddy when blowhards get all huffy during an argument. They seem to always deflate and get this windsock thing going. (Yeah, I'll just delete those next three lines and call it good.) |
Winthorp
2611
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 22:52:00 -
[1182] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: As to "posting on my main" you are damned presumptive that I even have a "main" in this game where the average player seems to have 3+ accounts. I am posting on the character I am most vocal on. If that sticks in your croup, good. Not like a siilent, nearly meaningless WH character that's a few years old and never once spoke in a forum means any more. But go ahead, try to say otherwise.
No see you are posting on a character that has only ever posted since the Hyperion changes announced so i don't see how it could ever be your most vocal character.
You call me out for being in nullsec when your character posted with is in a HS NPC corp. You see when i post here and have argued strongly for these changes i have posted with my main that lives in a WH and actually puts assets at risk with what i say unlike you who is too scared to post with your main.
So yes when you post with your main it will make a difference to how i interact with you like i have interacted with other people here in more meaningful discussion on the mechanics of these changes, but seriously why would i bother posting anything of meaning to you when you will just recycle your character to your next alt when the discussion doesn't go your way.
This thread had meaningful discussions in the first 20 pages and all it is now is whining people that need to accept what is coming and start working on how they will adapt to them.
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Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 23:24:00 -
[1183] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:No see you are posting on a character that has only ever posted since the Hyperion changes announced so i don't see how it could ever be your most vocal character.
You call me out for being in nullsec when your character posted with is in a HS NPC corp. You see when i post here and have argued strongly for these changes i have posted with my main that lives in a WH and actually puts assets at risk with what i say unlike you who is too scared to post with your main.
So yes when you post with your main it will make a difference to how i interact with you like i have interacted with other people here in more meaningful discussion on the mechanics of these changes, but seriously why would i bother posting anything of meaning to you when you will just recycle your character to your next alt when the discussion doesn't go your way.
This thread had meaningful discussions in the first 20 pages and all it is now is whining people that need to accept what is coming and start working on how they will adapt to them.
Because I know forums are the domain of trolls and where the tears of the innocent flow. I had no reason to post before, as there wasn't much stake in any of the stuff I read. In addition to that, most of the things I read had well thought out statements by plenty of other players that more than covered any issues or concerns I could have echoed in my posts. But this change, on this region of space...
I've been silent until now because I don't know (or care about) the actions in nullsec. I don't fly there, or hunt there, or own anything requiring SOV to anchor, or reside in something with a jump drive requirement instead of being able to use gates. Why should I weigh in on a section of space I regard as largely empty, rather boring (cause my friends don't fly there), and just plain foreign.
I do fly in highsec. I run missions. I have run almost every level of every form of mission in highsec, including every epic arc but Minmatar. I have mined, refined, manufactured T1, invented and manufactured T2, and played with almost every aspect of industry except (for obvious reasons) moon harvesting and reactions. Reactions may be changing, once the industry side of even stabilizes long enough to discern a profitable route to go in. I've even ganked my share of newbs and bittervets, including podding folks dumb enough to autopilot their capsules and leopards. Highsec is a known element to me.
I've flown some PVP roams in lowsec. Frigates and cruisers, nothing too pricey, just enough to get my feet wet way back in the when. I don't reside in lowsec, I've run my fair share of camps, died to a few of them even, and know what systems to avoid at what times of day while in a shuttle. (It also helps to use a map.)
All of my recent experiences are inside wormholes, C1, C2, C3, and for a few months C5. I've helped kill T3s using T3s, chased off gankers with battleships, rolled holes, scouted, ran sites solo and in groups up to 12 or so. Its a tight knit community. If you know anything about wormholes, then whats the first rule of wormholes? And I don't mean the part about probes and a probe launcher. My WH characters have no place speaking, here or in game. But I've spent around 18 months of my rather limited EVE experience living in some level of wormhole, and my thoughts and opinions and experiences finally mean something for a topic that is near and dear to what I love about the game. So now I post, when its time to say something for myself, about an area of space and an aspect of living there that I'm acutely aware of.
That cover it well enough for you, Mr. Forum Warrior sir? |
Winthorp
2611
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 23:26:00 -
[1184] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: Classic NPC ALT Ramblings
Come back to me when you can use your set of balls and post with your main. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.22 23:30:00 -
[1185] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: Classic NPC ALT Ramblings Normal response when denied the ability to directly threaten folks in game. Indeed |
Winthorp
2611
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 00:04:00 -
[1186] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Winthorp wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: Classic NPC ALT Ramblings Normal response when denied the ability to directly threaten folks in game. Indeed Edit: P.S. it was soooo hard not to just pick a random person from a no-name corp somewhere and list that as a main, but I'm not that despicable and heartless... even to folks I don't like.
Standard response from a paranoid HS pubbie thinking everyone is out to get him/her. |
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
1378
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 01:07:00 -
[1187] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Main character or not.
You have it half right. It should be main character or GTFO.
Here's your complimentary Bag O' Dix, cya later. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
232
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 01:29:00 -
[1188] - Quote
Maybe the wormhole community should die. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 01:36:00 -
[1189] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Standard response from a paranoid HS pubbie thinking everyone is out to get him/her. Paranoid? Maybe, maybe not.
Highsec? I already stated that, but you deleted that, only to restate it again, here. Now I am reconfirming that which I previously stated, just so we're clear on this.
Yes, I spent a pile of time in highsec.
Great argument. What does this have to do with my arguments about wormhole space? Oh, right, nothing.
I've likely logged more hours in the past year than you did in your characters' previous three. That doesn't make my time any more or less meaningful. My experiences are what matters, not some date on a calendar or some killmail you can't look up about me or some other measure of what I said versus what you've said. Suck it up, deal, or move on.
Paikis wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:Main character or not. You have it half right. It should be main character or GTFO. Here's your complimentary Bag O' Dix, cya later. I log most of my play hours on this character. Define "main" again? Oh, wait, I think I just did. Moving along.
For the rest of the argument, see above, and stop crying cause you can't find enough info to try anything else other than random insult number 3. I really did think EVE forums were the same as every other game I'd been in, hence no real reason to post here. I decided it might be worth speaking out against changes I find harful to the game. But, alas, here comes the forum warrior troll corp. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
150
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 02:15:00 -
[1190] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: log most of my play hours on this character. Define "main" again? Oh, wait, I think I just did. Moving along.
I'd probably define it as the character you do the most activities with, the most chats / convos with, or the most roles in an alliance/corp, not counting ceo holding toons. |
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 02:58:00 -
[1191] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: log most of my play hours on this character. Define "main" again? Oh, wait, I think I just did. Moving along. I'd probably define it as the character you do the most activities with, the most chats / convos with, or the most roles in an alliance/corp, not counting ceo holding toons. most play hours = most activities, you do know that right? |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 04:54:00 -
[1192] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: log most of my play hours on this character. Define "main" again? Oh, wait, I think I just did. Moving along. I'd probably define it as the character you do the most activities with, the most chats / convos with, or the most roles in an alliance/corp, not counting ceo holding toons. most play hours = most activities, you do know that right? For some reason folks think an NPC corp character can't be my main. Not sure I understand that. I'm more active and more vocal as part of this starter corp.
Several of the characters I have in player corps end up with no one online but me. Lets face it, many small corps are virtually inactive, or selectively inactive depending the the group's work schedules. In addition, a PI and industry alt doesn't make sense to be called a main just because they are a CEO of a holding corp tucked away in a corner of Minmatar space.
So for every 23 hours on this character, chatting, mission running, etc., I log about an hour of my other, player corp characters. |
Winthorp
2611
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 05:48:00 -
[1193] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
So for every 23 hours on this character, chatting, mission running, etc., I log about an hour of my other, player corp characters.
So then you are not even in WH space and trying to call me some nullsec bad?
See this is why your opinion means SFA while you are in an NPC corp, no one can even gauge your experience that your view point comes from and won't even bother going into a detailed discussion with you. We all just see NPC alt /ignore. |
Winthorp
2611
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 05:59:00 -
[1194] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: I've likely logged more hours in the past year than you did in your characters' previous three. That doesn't make my time any more or less meaningful. My experiences are what matters, not some date on a calendar or some killmail you can't look up about me or some other measure of what I said versus what you've said. Suck it up, deal, or move on. .
See and this is where you don't seem to get it, only you know your experience and all we can see to judge your experience from is that history that you chose to hide from us.
But please keep getting up on your pedestal about how we should recognise your NPC status, because this whole time no one has had any discussion with you on any merits of your arguments while you talk on an your NPC alt.
NPC alts are so high and mighty its disturbing. I am a little bored now, back later. |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
74
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 09:16:00 -
[1195] - Quote
The only opinions that matter in this thread are the opinions of people who live in wormhole space. All of the people who live in here are associated to a corp of some kind and again most of those corps are recognized.
If you are not posting from ur main who resides in a wormhole corp your opinion means sweet **** all. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2109
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 18:27:00 -
[1196] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote:The only opinions that matter in this thread are the opinions of people who live in wormhole space. All of the people who live in here are associated to a corp of some kind and again most of those corps are recognized.
If you are not posting from ur main who resides in a wormhole corp your opinion means sweet **** all.
Bzzzt wrong. Its precisely for this eletist attitude that CCP or anyone else won't take you seriously.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
96
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 19:56:00 -
[1197] - Quote
60 pages of carebear whining.
WH space should be dark and unforgiving - you made WH space an ISK farm.
Best would be to remove POSs form WH space.
CCP wants to change WH space form an ISK farm to that space is was planned - a dangerous, chaotic and hellish space. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 20:04:00 -
[1198] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Bzzzt wrong. Its precisely for this eletist attitude that CCP or anyone else won't take you seriously.
Indeed. I was trying to phrase an appropriate response to the trolling, but decided it really didn't matter. You just said everything I was feeling but lacked the coherency to express. Thank you. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 20:35:00 -
[1199] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:So for every 23 hours on this character, chatting, mission running, etc., I log about an hour of my other, player corp characters. See this is why your opinion means SFA while you are in an NPC corp, no one can even gauge your experience that your view point comes from and won't even bother going into a detailed discussion with you. We all just see NPC alt /ignore. You say that, but when we have Hard Knocks rolled into our hole with a visible fleet thats 4x my available corpmates, it's time to log. Can't do much about that, even under the current mechanics. Lots of time with my WH corp is spend not doing anything because that kind of opposition can't really be won against. We've tried, and the shiny T3s get replaced, the pods get refilled, and we move on. Now the environment is being made more hostile.
The other issue is my wormhole corp only operates for a few hours a day because most of us actually work for a living. I know, I know, it's a novel concept among EVE players from what I see in chats, but there you have it. My schedule differs from that of my corpmates; I have more time some days, and no time others. Hence finding stuff to do the days I can't do WH ops due to no fleet, hence trying almost every aspect of highsec and many aspects of lowsec when the rest of my group can't fly. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
150
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 21:27:00 -
[1200] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Winthorp wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:So for every 23 hours on this character, chatting, mission running, etc., I log about an hour of my other, player corp characters. See this is why your opinion means SFA while you are in an NPC corp, no one can even gauge your experience that your view point comes from and won't even bother going into a detailed discussion with you. We all just see NPC alt /ignore. You say that, but when we have Hard Knocks rolled into our hole with a visible fleet thats 4x my available corpmates, it's time to log. Can't do much about that, even under the current mechanics. Lots of time with my WH corp is spend not doing anything because that kind of opposition can't really be won against. We've tried, and the shiny T3s get replaced, the pods get refilled, and we move on. Now the environment is being made more hostile. The other issue is my wormhole corp only operates for a few hours a day because most of us actually work for a living. I know, I know, it's a novel concept among EVE players from what I see in chats, but there you have it. My schedule differs from that of my corpmates; I have more time some days, and no time others. Hence finding stuff to do the days I can't do WH ops due to no fleet, hence trying almost every aspect of highsec and many aspects of lowsec when the rest of my group can't fly.
If Hard Knocks rolls into your hole without you noticing, you deserve to lose your hole.
If you truly were in a WH corp, you'd post with that toon in order to lend some credence to your "story" which is suspect atm at best, given your claims of having zero people online in whs and thus zero experience in larger holes.
Rahelis wrote:WH space should be dark and unforgiving - you made WH space an ISK farm. Only if CCP remove nullsec stations and POSs as well.
Sentamon wrote:Bzzzt wrong. Its precisely for this eletist attitude that CCP or anyone else won't take you seriously. Let's make an analogy here. Say you own a television. It's two years old, and it hasn't had a problem from the day you bought it. Now, one day, it doesn't display anything when you turn it on. The sound comes through, you can swap channels and inputs, but there's no video. What will you do?
Do you call Joe Schmoe from down the street, who rants and raves about how the CIA is using TV waves to brainwash the public into buying the latest Apple product? Or do you go to / take the TV to the professionals, the ones who've been in the TV/Electronics repair business for the past 50 years, of dudes who can open it up, take one look, and tell you 1) whats wrong, 2) how long it'll take to fix, and 3) how much it'll cost you, with just a 10-second once-over? |
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 23:21:00 -
[1201] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:If Hard Knocks rolls into your hole without you noticing, you deserve to lose your hole.
If you truly were in a WH corp, you'd post with that toon in order to lend some credence to your "story" which is suspect atm at best, given your claims of having zero people online in whs and thus zero experience in larger holes. Who said we didn't notice? It happened before our full group was logged in, and we had scouts observing them. We made the call of whether or not to engage, checking the numbers in their hole and our connecting systems.
Trying to dismiss observations about life in a small WH corp in a C5 as a "smaller hole" makes sense if you're in a C6. Some of the trolls trying to argue where this character originates from instead of arguing against what I have stated are trying to skip over whats been said without actually directly countering it. Its called taking the easy way out. In politics it's called mud slinging.
You are assuming things. Thats fine. Assume.
Instead of trolling a player, lets try debating about the purpose of this thread: the changes to spawning distance of hole rolling ships.
Lets discuss the implications of having to use a fleet of smaller, less expensive ships and the likelihood of losing ships on the wrong side of the hole when it closes due to mass variance. That is the key one to why Orcas and capitals are used. Now CCP is declaring that these ships need to be placed at far more risk for smaller groups, and take far more time to use in the case of larger groups.
Why is CCP against WH space rolling holes? Who benefits? What entities are going to be grateful for this change when it is coupled with the K162 spawn changes?
Some WH groups may enjoy the changes. I know that, for a small group, we're now practicing on SiSi how to tackle and kill enemy ships while they are rolling as these guys are now being handed to us as victims. We are also practicing methods to close our own exits under the new changes so we're prepared for how the fights might develop and be either countered or taken advantage of.
I am still opposed to the changes as written, but preparing and adaptating is the counter in-game. I will still argue against it, while you argue against me. So I put forth ideas, and you put forth personal attacks, and lets see who makes more progress, hmm? |
Winthorp
2613
|
Posted - 2014.08.23 23:30:00 -
[1202] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:
Instead of trolling a player, lets try debating about the purpose of this thread: the changes to spawning distance of hole rolling ships.
Currently you are not a player in WH Space. NPC corps can't give you roles to anchor a POS, when they do we can speak further. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 05:15:00 -
[1203] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Currently you are not a player in WH Space. NPC corps can't give you roles to anchor a POS, when they do we can speak further. First, you don't have to anchor a POS to live in a wormhole.
Second, you don't have to live in a wormhole to use them to make money.
Finally, you don't have to be in a player owned corporation to play EVE, even in a wormhole.
I tell you, some player corps just can't think outside a POS bubble anymore. |
Winthorp
2613
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 06:10:00 -
[1204] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Winthorp wrote:Currently you are not a player in WH Space. NPC corps can't give you roles to anchor a POS, when they do we can speak further. First, you don't have to anchor a POS to live in a wormhole. Second, you don't have to live in a wormhole to use them to make money. Finally, you don't have to be in a player owned corporation to play EVE, even in a wormhole. I tell you, some player corps just can't think outside a POS bubble anymore.
I don't think you will ever get it, good luck with being ignored continually. |
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 06:22:00 -
[1205] - Quote
The whole WH rolling thing is only about rebalancing stuff, lads.
WH are a milk cow from which you can sell ISK for bucks real easy.
EVE is supposed to be risk versus reward.
Small groups in WH need to move and do sites they can complete in short time.
What makes WH life dangerous in the first place is the cloaking module - not the sleepers.
What WHs need is a ship that can take clone - not the rorc, a smaller and faster ship. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 08:12:00 -
[1206] - Quote
Well, this thing is gonna get patched in and damn the torpedoes. Not much else to say at this point except I hope the metrics bear out the unnecessary tedium of rolling holes to get things done.
And that losing ships to "randomness" is stupid and unfair (right, unfair fights are all you find in eve, but at least the mechanics shouldn't be the culprit).
And that "organic" chains from the new random WH spawns are only gonna lead to more empty holes, because once you find out you're at a numbers disadvantage on the chain there ain't nothin else smart to do except POS up and log.
Love the rest of the changes, but CCP needs to give small corps more <3, rather than stomping on us in one form or another every single patch. |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 09:11:00 -
[1207] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Sentamon wrote:Bzzzt wrong. Its precisely for this eletist attitude that CCP or anyone else won't take you seriously.
Indeed. I was trying to phrase an appropriate response to the trolling, but decided it really didn't matter. You just said everything I was feeling but lacked the coherency to express. Thank you.
You are irrelevant. |
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 12:17:00 -
[1208] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:60 pages of carebear whining.
WH space should be dark and unforgiving - you made WH space an ISK farm.
Best would be to remove POSs form WH space.
CCP wants to change WH space form an ISK farm to that space is was planned - a dangerous, chaotic and hellish space.
You need to give more arguments i'm afraid. WH space IS unforgiving and while there are indeed groups that use it purely as an 'ISK farm' it is neither anything resembling a risk-free enterprise, nor are those groups truly regarded as WH denizens by the majority of others.
Verry few forum posts actually argued against CCPs stated reasons for pushing this spawn distance change (and even that stated reason had no mention of 'isk farming').
Mostly all of us rebelled aginst the change itself, specifically that this is not the way for CCPs to achieve their stated goals. It simply has too many undesired content+activity reducing side effects which I invite you to look up by properly reading what was previousely posted in this verry long thread.
Thanks, Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
733
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 12:55:00 -
[1209] - Quote
What some people don't seem to see is that the end result, no matter the ideals behind it and how valid they might be, would be very similar to doing something like making it so that say ships jumping to a cyno couldn't dock, enter a POS FF or log off for 5 minutes after jumping - it would largely result in making day to day activities very tedious, when it does result in someone taking advantage of the increased risk preys on the smaller weaker entities and largely doesn't affect the bigger entities as they have the logistics to backup ships in that position and the burden comes down less on individual members so there is less effect from the burn out (though its still very tedious even for them).
Pushing this change through is just bone headed.
(EDIT: Also can obviously draw comparisons to range based exit on cynos) |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 13:18:00 -
[1210] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote: You are irrelevant.
Sadly we all are.
I have very little hope that we as a community can change anything now. No matter how solid our concerns are, we will get this brainfart of a change.
Rahelis wrote:The whole WH rolling thing is only about rebalancing stuff, lads.
... is this why they haven't touched WH sites at all GǪ is this why it is like 100 times harder to roll a C1 WH than any other?
No, instead of rebalancing they are just going to implement a brainfart that makes literally everything worse AND does not touch the core problems of w-space at all AND was not asked for by the w-community AND does not add anything interesting to WH live.
The reason why the w-community (except some very special people) is so upset about this:
Aender Wiggin wrote: stated goals.
There is no logic or reasoning... no stated goals or anything ...
It is a brainfart. Yes it is. It smells very bad and Makes Bob very sad.
|
|
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 15:19:00 -
[1211] - Quote
WHs where never been meant to be inhabitated and POSsed. The POS code was simply forgotten - nowadays many WHs have multiple POSs.
Players tend to abuse game mechanics - WHs are nothing than ISK cows - and with the rolling of holes WH ppl even had and have the chance to control access to their WH.
What we see is a try to make EVE more risk versus reward.
Today ppl even build stuff and do PI in WHs - WHs (C1s) are a kind of industrial base.
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 15:59:00 -
[1212] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:WHs where never been meant to be inhabitated and POSsed. The POS code was simply forgotten - nowadays many WHs have multiple POSs.
Players tend to abuse game mechanics - WHs are nothing than ISK cows - and with the rolling of holes WH ppl even had and have the chance to control access to their WH.
What we see is a try to make EVE more risk versus reward.
Today ppl even build stuff and do PI in WHs - WHs (C1s) are a kind of industrial base.
I'm one of the recruiters for my corp and one of the things I tell people is that if you want to farm isk go run incursions (since they make more isk than wh space) but if you want to make isk and have fun doing it then wh space is where it's at. Anyone who isk farms by running sites is retarted and the majority of people in wh space run sites to fund their pvp not because they are carebears....and for that matter why do you give a **** if someone is a carebear? |
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
1403
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 19:40:00 -
[1213] - Quote
Delicious Tears. The Tears Must Flow |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.24 19:42:00 -
[1214] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:I'm one of the recruiters for my corp and one of the things I tell people is that if you want to farm isk go run incursions (since they make more isk than wh space) but if you want to make isk and have fun doing it then wh space is where it's at. Anyone who isk farms by running sites is retarted and the majority of people in wh space run sites to fund their pvp not because they are carebears....and for that matter why do you give a **** if someone is a carebear? This. The PVPers of wormhole space are supported by the ISK generation of the wormholes. Some folks can't wrap their head around that. Without this source of income how can they roam and PVP in their blinged-out T3s and Gilas?
Everyone in a WH isn't there for the money. They want the money and the PVP. Highsec incursion running is almost constant PVE that can be run without interruption or delay for days on end. Wormholes have to spawn sites to gain new content, and this can mean no PVE content for days at a time. You can also go farm neighboring holes, but at that point the super-mega-bears don't like that cause it means PVPers are a lot more likely to drop on you.
|
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3698
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 00:49:00 -
[1215] - Quote
I'm really beginning to think I'm the only person in wspace that actually likes it. I don't go to WHs for constant PVP, you go to nullsec for that. I don't go to WHs for free ISK, you go to HS incursions or market trading for that. I go to WHs because the mechanics and environment are the best available in EVE and nothing else is remotely close.
Do what you wan't in WHs, I don't care. I don't rely on other people to enjoy living in WHs because I genuinely like how they work and what you can do in them. People keep saying 'I want more PVP' or 'PVE is too safe' or 'PVE is too risky'. None of this has any relevance to the bottom line of WHs being awesome.
WHs don't owe you a god damn thing. If you can't generate your own content, they're not for you and that's fine, there are other places out there that you can go. For years everyone, including CCP, has been saying the WH space is the best working space in EVE and yet, here we are changing one of the basic fundamentals of wspace.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
128
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 01:37:00 -
[1216] - Quote
Well, CCP has abandoned this thread apparently. To say I am disappointed in the lack of response to even acknowledge our posting would be an understatement.
Anyway, in response to people saying things like "Loving the tears" and "Endless posts of carebear tears". I would like to point out that less wormhole rolling is a good thing for the carebears of wormholes, it makes it safer for them and they (And I) can now proceed more safely as we farm endless amounts of isk. Nothing is requiring a carebear to use their capitals to collapse holes, speed is not off the essence to them, I could just as easily use my 10 accounts and role holes with battleships even though it would take longer "Holes rolled per hour" doesn't matter to me I only need to collapse 1 or 2 and my wormhole is suddenly safe not to mention there is even less chance someone is going to open up a new hole to me because they can't roll their static's very fast anymore.
So in closing, this change is good for big wormhole pvp or pve groups, bad for small pvp groups, but still good for small pve groups. Which means this change caters to blobs, carebears, and spits in the face of small gang pvpers. You can take that information as you like, I'm not going to accuse anyone of favoritism but those are the facts. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1091
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 05:39:00 -
[1217] - Quote
So, wormhole space has been widely regarded as the one part of eve that just works, the mechanics either accidentially, or through the work of the Genius/geniuses who designed it has not only worked but is mechanically trusted, much like a well loved Mercedes.
Now it appears, that working well is no longer desireable or sufficient.
So the well loved Mercedes has had air introduced into the braking system.
It now requires you to pump the pedal, repeatedly.
And sometimes, you or your passengers die. Fun? Right?
Great job , you must feel very proud of your efforts with this.
If you feel players are angry you are very mistaken.
The emotion we are feeling is contempt. With a side order of disappointment, and disgust. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
234
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 05:59:00 -
[1218] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:60 pages of carebear whining.
WH space should be dark and unforgiving - you made WH space an ISK farm.
Best would be to remove POSs form WH space.
CCP wants to change WH space form an ISK farm to that space is was planned - a dangerous, chaotic and hellish space.
Im sorry I didn't see you come in from the stargate. Who the hell are you again?
P.S. Mind giving us a friendly reciprocal link to a null feedback thread so we can **** up something of yours to? Gracias.
You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 07:36:00 -
[1219] - Quote
You guys are entertaining.
CCPs does not give a **** about you and your concerns. We - the customers - are like the rats in EVE - we are only there to pay.
So stop complaining and even threatening CCP.
If you carebears rejoice form WH PVP - the patch is only about WH PVP.
Frig gates are only there to counter bling T3 ships.
No sites and farming in general is changed.
You can farm for ages - you will only loose more ships in the process.
I like the changes and I think them will make WH space even better. For sure WH spave is the best EVE has to offer. |
Aender Wiggin
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 08:12:00 -
[1220] - Quote
Rahelis wrote: CCP wants to change WH space form an ISK farm to that space is was planned - a dangerous, chaotic and hellish space.
Rahelis wrote: If you carebears rejoice form WH PVP - the patch is only about WH PVP.
So is it their plan to lower feasibility of farming in wormholes or not ? You should probably stop contradicting yourself if you want to have any credibility.
Rahelis wrote:WHs where never been meant to be inhabitated and POSsed. The POS code was simply forgotten - nowadays many WHs have multiple POSs.
Players tend to abuse game mechanics
CCP more than once stated that they admire very much how players turned WH mechanics into a place they can call home even though that is not what was initially expected. Thus it is clearly not 'abuse' but what CCP called it: 'adaptability'.
They also said they have no intention of blindingly sticking to they original goals from 5 years ago (as you suggest with the removal of POSes and other such nonsense). I have not once seen you address those same kind of suggestion in this thread but done to null space. A little afraid for you wallet? I don't blame you. Go with Bob, keep Him always in your heart. He is your Sword, Shield, and the Knife in your back. |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1093
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 08:28:00 -
[1221] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:You guys are entertaining.
CCPs does not give a **** about you and your concerns. We - the customers - are like the rats in EVE - we are only there to pay.
So stop complaining and even threatening CCP.
If you carebears rejoice form WH PVP - the patch is only about WH PVP.
Frig gates are only there to counter bling T3 ships.
No sites and farming in general is changed.
You can farm for ages - you will only loose more ships in the process.
I like the changes and I think them will make WH space even better. For sure WH spave is the best EVE has to offer.
Well, it is clear that you have not read any posts by wormhole players, before coming to your conclusions. It is clear that you have no understanding of wormhole space whatsoever. It is clear you have no understanding of wormhole players concerns. Oh and you are wrong as well.
The problem is we are getting the same level of understanding and "customer service" from CCP as well. We are not threatening CCP, the most that has happened is that people in this thread have pointed out the consequences of their actions.
They have the perfect right to behave however they wish. And reap the consequences whatever they may be. It is not that people will rage quit, that is not what they should be worried about, it is that people cease to care, whatever they do, any more. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 11:24:00 -
[1222] - Quote
This and the other changes look great to me and have in fact made me re-subcribe, even though I may not actually have much time to play for RL reasons.
This change in particular seems to be the change to kick farmers out of w-space. Closing of holes just to be safe is more work now and involves a little risk. Lazy farmers will either give up and leave or just leave their holes open and hope for the best.
Ragerolling shouldn't be too badly affected because the groups doing it can easily field caps + webbers to make a short warp and then warp back to the hole GÇô of course also adding some risk in the process which is good. And larger standoffs at holes should be less boring now, things might actually happen. . |
Chev Alsar
Bookmark Both Sides Exit Strategy..
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 12:11:00 -
[1223] - Quote
This entire thread is a shinning example to all MMO developers of player engagement. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 12:48:00 -
[1224] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:This and the other changes look great to me and have in fact made me re-subcribe, even though I may not actually have much time to play for RL reasons.
This change in particular seems to be the change to kick farmers out of w-space. Closing of holes just to be safe is more work now and involves a little risk. Lazy farmers will either give up and leave or just leave their holes open and hope for the best.
Ragerolling shouldn't be too badly affected because the groups doing it can easily field caps + webbers to make a short warp and then warp back to the hole GÇô of course also adding some risk in the process which is good. And larger standoffs at holes should be less boring now, things might actually happen.
Uhh you don't know the hardcore farmers that well do you? These changes mean nothing to them. They'll crash all the holes just like before if its safe, it will just take a little longer. Or it will be done with more alts to compensate on speed.
If its not safe they'll POS up and log. Same as before. The only thing meaningful is the delay to the k162 appearance on the discovery scanner to when a ship actually jumps through. But since rage rolling is also getting nerfed badly because of "mass spew", farmers will be much less likely to be rolled into by an entity with the ships and pilots ready to go to take them on. So a lot of the "teeth" in the K162 change is lost because of "mass spew". This is speaking mostly of cap escalation farmers.
Ragerolling is already risky as has been pointed out by many. Tomorrow it will be risky AND way more tedious. Why would anyone want more tedium in any game they play? We're gonna get a lot less ragerolling, guaranteed.
I think you're wrong I think we'll get way more standoffs on the hole with nothing happening. Because going on offense with capitals jumping through means committing to destroying every opposing ship on grid on the defender's home turf or losing caps due to "mass spewing" out of range of jumping back. Guaranteed that every WH fleet doctrine will have bump fits and webs after tomorrow.
Maybe you should think about re-unsubscribing. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
110
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 12:55:00 -
[1225] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:This and the other changes look great to me and have in fact made me re-subcribe, even though I may not actually have much time to play for RL reasons.
This change in particular seems to be the change to kick farmers out of w-space. Closing of holes just to be safe is more work now and involves a little risk. Lazy farmers will either give up and leave or just leave their holes open and hope for the best.
Ragerolling shouldn't be too badly affected because the groups doing it can easily field caps + webbers to make a short warp and then warp back to the hole GÇô of course also adding some risk in the process which is good. And larger standoffs at holes should be less boring now, things might actually happen.
Youre not getting a few things.
1. you write that this change in particulat will kick some farmers out of w-space. This might be true to some extent, but what is gained from that? The result, if you are correct in your prediction, will be less targets to gank. So a loss for PvPers.
2. Ragerolling will be affected. Yes, you can field caps + webbers, but its going to be more tedious. Hence, ragerolling will occur less often, again, less ganks in WH space.
Less things will happen, becaue both farmers AND PvPers will bother less with setting up WH operations. Farmes will rather log out than risk rolling the hole, and PvPers will grow tired of ragerolling their static faster than they are now, because it will be more tedious to do.
The overall consequence, even by your own logic, will be LESS ACTIVITY IN W-SPACE IN GENERAL. |
Lugia3
Intentionally Dense Easily Excited
1214
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 12:58:00 -
[1226] - Quote
So it goes live tomorrow...
RIP wormhole space, was good while it lasted. Good thing I live in lowsec. "CCP Dolan is full of ****." - CCP Bettik
Remove Sov! |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 14:01:00 -
[1227] - Quote
Ragerolling was always just a poor substitute for actual decent gameplay. It came into fashion only because it ended up being the only way to catch cautious farmers at all, by opening a new connection into their system.
After the changes, I expect w-space residents will gradually become used to a) less frequent attacks from rage-rolling groups and b) having open holes in their system most of the time (even if it's just the new frigate-sized, un-closable holes). People will be forced to accept some degree of risk and uncertainty.
The result should/could be that w-space becomes less about closing any hole you don't like (which includes the static of pvp-seeking groups) and more about a web of systems that are and remain connected and where you stay alive by being vigilant and actual scouting, not by cutting connections.
When you have open connections which you cannot close effectively or at all, and it's like that every day, you either learn to accept that and take more risk or you give up and leave. Sure, you will lose more ships, but you also have a greater chance to catch others while hunting. I perceive this as an attempt to change people's mindset regarding risk, or to lure more of the people with the right attitude into w-space. And I think it might well work. We will see. . |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11163
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 14:11:00 -
[1228] - Quote
Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 14:21:00 -
[1229] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
this is the biggest screw you guys I have ever seen So Much Space |
Lamhoofd Hashur
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 14:23:00 -
[1230] - Quote
Maybe eventually the numbers will indeed tell you that activity has not changed that much, however you cannot measure the sentiment of people in numbers that easily. A lot of people love w-space for what it is and won't leave that fast. They however will probably feel that rolling became more tedious, using multiple carriers became less useful, dreads became more powerful and that being the attacker is even a bigger disadvantage then it already was. Please explain to me how you are going to keep an eye on this. |
|
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
55
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 14:24:00 -
[1231] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Screw the community. Hey Fozzie, I am glad to hear that you spend all that time considering other gamedesign changes that could benefit the game and the community. Such a shame you weren't able to come up with anything worth while.
Lets roll a die shall we? On 1 and 2 you get to keep your job.. On 3-5 you have to find a new job and on a 6, you end on the streets without a penny.. Sounds like game design just up your alley, right?
No go fix Nullsec or something, would rather not have changes to W-space than have you working on them -.- |
Querns
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
774
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:03:00 -
[1232] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible. Good to hear. Separating the actual feedback from the kneejerk reaction posting can't be easy. This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
733
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:16:00 -
[1233] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Ragerolling was always just a poor substitute for actual decent gameplay. It came into fashion only because it ended up being the only way to catch cautious farmers at all, by opening a new connection into their system.
After the changes, I expect w-space residents will gradually become used to a) less frequent attacks from rage-rolling groups and b) having open holes in their system most of the time (even if it's just the new frigate-sized, un-closable holes). People will be forced to accept some degree of risk and uncertainty.
The result should/could be that w-space becomes less about closing any hole you don't like (which includes the static of pvp-seeking groups) and more about a web of systems that are and remain connected and where you stay alive by being vigilant and actual scouting, not by cutting connections.
When you have open connections which you cannot close effectively or at all, and it's like that every day, you either learn to accept that and take more risk or you give up and leave. Sure, you will lose more ships, but you also have a greater chance to catch others while hunting. I perceive this as an attempt to change people's mindset regarding risk, or to lure more of the people with the right attitude into w-space. And I think it might well work. We will see.
If your not careful though you then have an environment that is far more an open battlefield, much harder for smaller groups to use the environment to their advantage and encourage people to form power blocs - everything that w-space has so far (largely) avoided.
Other than null sec trolls I'm curious as to who the other lots are that Fozzie is trying to keep happy as 99.99% of people I've spoken to who have anything to do with w-space ingame are somewhere between don't really care either way through to dead against the change. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1096
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:25:00 -
[1234] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
Do not mistake the feedback you have received as anger. The reaction of the player base, is far, far, worse than that.
All has been explained, including our feelings and reactions. There is nothing that you can say or do at this point, your Choices have been made. This will be a cause of great regret in the years to come, and pointed to as a bad decision by those who follow. There is nothing else for us to say. Why should we care? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1096
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:28:00 -
[1235] - Quote
Querns wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible. Good to hear. Separating the actual feedback from the kneejerk reaction posting can't be easy.
61 pages of kneejerk reaction? And 30 pages before it was moved here? Right, nothing kneejerk about it. Just complete disgust.
Maybe if he had actually taken account of those who live here, then our opinion might be somewhat different? As it is, move in, enjoy it, why should we care any longer? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
733
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:53:00 -
[1236] - Quote
Certainly no anger here - a certain amount of disbelief, leading to me to be somewhat more acerbic in my replies, as from my perspective having spent approx 5 years in wormholes it seems a bit of an off beat implementation - something like suddenly deciding to randomly implement it so that everyone gets a suspect flags for 30 seconds at the completion of a highsec mission or something (not sure I can really convey how it looks to me). |
Klarion Sythis
Literally Solo
299
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:54:00 -
[1237] - Quote
Good lord you guys are dramatic.
Stick to logic and reason. Every post about Devs losing their jobs, no ***** given about the community, and the end of wormholes as we know it just looks like the post of every other over dramatic lunatic who said the same about other changes over the past 11 years.
I'm not saying this change will be good, because whether or not it is is a separate issue from how crazy, entitled, and ungrateful so many vocal EVE players sound with every change ever.
Lamhoofd actually had a good point without sperging. Not every value can be quantified and tracked. |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 15:59:00 -
[1238] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
Just curious if any actual CCP devs got hands on experience with actual playing in wormhole space, or is it soly based on the "we believe" things will be so much better ignoring those that spent years playing in wormhole space.
I do wish you will hit null sec with just as big sledge hammer next. (and ignore the people living there in the process). |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
733
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:05:00 -
[1239] - Quote
Klarion Sythis wrote:Good lord you guys are dramatic.
Stick to logic and reason. Every post about Devs losing their jobs, no ***** given about the community, and the end of wormholes as we know it just looks like the post of every other over dramatic lunatic who said the same about other changes over the past 11 years.
I'm not saying this change will be good, because whether or not it is is a separate issue from how crazy, entitled, and ungrateful so many vocal EVE players sound with every change ever.
Lamhoofd actually had a good point without sperging. Not every value can be quantified and tracked.
There is no getting away from the fact that in the vast majority of cases this will add nothing to the game (and make things more of a drag for no real reason) and only change the dynamic in fringe cases and largely in those fringe cases come down heavier on the smaller entities than the larger ones - which is something wormhole space has mostly managed to avoid and if people want that they can always go to nullsec. |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
724
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:06:00 -
[1240] - Quote
Ruffio Sepico wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible. Just curious if any actual CCP devs got hands on experience with actual playing in wormhole space, or is it soly based on the "we believe" things will be so much better ignoring those that spent years playing in wormhole space. I do wish you will hit null sec with just as big sledge hammer next. (and ignore the people living there in the process). Nullsec has been desperately agitating for changes. As nullsec requires adaptability nullsec does not have the same reflexive rage at changes in mechanics that require you to adapt: in fact, veterans relish mechanics changeups that force us out of sclerotic ways of doing things that were optimized years ago and force us to use our noggins. |
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
733
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:09:00 -
[1241] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote: Nullsec has been desperately agitating for changes. As nullsec requires adaptability nullsec does not have the same reflexive rage at changes in mechanics that require you to adapt: in fact, veterans relish mechanics changeups that force us out of sclerotic ways of doing things that were optimized years ago and force us to use our noggins.
That doesn't indiscriminately justify and validate any change though. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 16:20:00 -
[1242] - Quote
I didn't move into a C5 6 months ago to have this new aspect of the game (for me) ripped from the game. As the developers seem to feel that this change is going to happen despite lengthy explanation and protest by the majority of the community, I supposed I am forced to respond in kind. When these changes go live I will be unsubbing my 8 accounts. Perhaps when money is removed from the game, then the Devs might care what the players have to say. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1096
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:06:00 -
[1243] - Quote
This is not about threats in any way, I have had interest in playing a game where one builds creates, fights, wins and loses, and the result is the balance of ones own abilities, and that is balanced against those you meet.
I have Zero interest in playing a game where the result is decided by random chance or luck. I am buggered if I am going to spend months buying a capital and CCP luck decides whether it lives or dies. And then Grinding back up again. So I no longer have a goal.
Guess what happens next.
Not anger, not rage, just complete indifference to something I no longer care for. For me EVE no longer has a reason to exist, it has carelessly cast aside what made it worthwhile. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:15:00 -
[1244] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:This is not about threats in any way, I have had interest in playing a game where one builds creates, fights, wins and loses, and the result is the balance of ones own abilities, and that is balanced against those you meet.
I have Zero interest in playing a game where the result is decided by random chance or luck. I am buggered if I am going to spend months buying a capital and CCP luck decides whether it lives or dies. And then Grinding back up again. So I no longer have a goal.
Guess what happens next.
Not anger, not rage, just complete indifference to something I no longer care for. For me EVE no longer has a reason to exist, it has carelessly cast aside what made it worthwhile. man you must not have been playing eve for very long if you think that this is the only way that you can randomly lose a ship
between disconnects, bugs, the undock cone, 2500m warp variance, there's a whole hell of a lot of room for you to lose a ship due to bad luck
i'm sorry that your regimen for survival in wormhole space is being changed but you have to deal with it the way everyone else deals with chance |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1096
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:22:00 -
[1245] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:This is not about threats in any way, I have had interest in playing a game where one builds creates, fights, wins and loses, and the result is the balance of ones own abilities, and that is balanced against those you meet.
I have Zero interest in playing a game where the result is decided by random chance or luck. I am buggered if I am going to spend months buying a capital and CCP luck decides whether it lives or dies. And then Grinding back up again. So I no longer have a goal.
Guess what happens next.
Not anger, not rage, just complete indifference to something I no longer care for. For me EVE no longer has a reason to exist, it has carelessly cast aside what made it worthwhile. man you must not have been playing eve for very long if you think that this is the only way that you can randomly lose a ship between disconnects, bugs, the undock cone, 2500m warp variance, there's a whole hell of a lot of room for you to lose a ship due to bad luck i'm sorry that your regimen for survival in wormhole space is being changed but you have to deal with it the way everyone else deals with chance
If you really think that gutting the core concept of eve, where our actions and those actions of those you meet are what decide our experience, is a positive direction for EVE you are welcome to continue.
But when It becomes Russian roulette in space, they can keep it.
Yes we put up with all the crap of disconnects and bad programming, but when the game is designed to randomly kill you, for "fun" I have absolutely NO DESIRE to put up with that.
I will not play the Victim for anyone, If I am killed, GF, not "nothing anyone could do, just CCP luck against you."
If that is the game they want, that is fine, their choice, but it is not something I want anything whatsoever to do with. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
170
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:25:00 -
[1246] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
LOL twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
724
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:29:00 -
[1247] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Yes we put up with all the crap of disconnects and bad programming, but when the game is designed to randomly kill you, for "fun" I have absolutely NO DESIRE to put up with that.
I will not play the Victim for anyone, If I am killed, GF, not "nothing anyone could do, just CCP luck against you."
If that is the game they want, that is fine, their choice, but it is not something I want anything whatsoever to do with.
the game forces you to take a risk
how you manage that risk is up to you, but the game doesn't kill you: other players who exploited that you took a risk (perhaps foolishly) and managed it poorly do |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1096
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:30:00 -
[1248] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Yes we put up with all the crap of disconnects and bad programming, but when the game is designed to randomly kill you, for "fun" I have absolutely NO DESIRE to put up with that.
I will not play the Victim for anyone, If I am killed, GF, not "nothing anyone could do, just CCP luck against you."
If that is the game they want, that is fine, their choice, but it is not something I want anything whatsoever to do with.
the game forces you to take a risk how you manage that risk is up to you, but the game doesn't kill you: other players who exploited that you took a risk (perhaps foolishly) and managed it poorly do
If you believe that you have absolutely no idea of what this change entails.
The whole point is that there is absolutely nothing you can manage, you are just along for the ride, and each person who jumps into a hostile defence will live or die entirely and totally due to the luck of where he emerges in a great sphere. And NOTHING he can do will influence that.
You may as well have the ship randomly self destruct. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:33:00 -
[1249] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
How many more pages on this thread of people saying this change is dumb and we don't like it do we need to make to get this not to happen? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1096
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:34:00 -
[1250] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible. How many more pages on this thread of people saying this change is dumb and we don't like it do we need to make to get this not to happen?
Never, those somewhere up the tree have decided it is fun. And if they force it through we will thank them for it.
You cannot cure that level of stupid. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
724
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:37:00 -
[1251] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: If you believe that you have absolutely no idea of what this change entails.
The whole point is that there is absolutely nothing you can manage, you are just along for the ride, and each person who jumps into a hostile defence will live or die entirely and totally due to the luck of where he emerges in a great sphere. And NOTHING he can do will influence that.
You may as well have the ship randomly self destruct.
sounds like you'll have to put your thinking caps on and figure out the best fleet comps to jump into a hostile defense taking into account this mechanic
you're basically furious someone moved your cheese: yes, the maze has changed and you will have to reconsider what fleet comp you use in attacking. nullsec does this like monthly, it's not too hard and many people (perhaps you, perhaps not) will learn to adapt |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:38:00 -
[1252] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: If you really think that gutting the core concept of eve, where our actions and those actions of those you meet are what decide our experience, is a positive direction for EVE you are welcome to continue.
L M B O
please continue to spout melodrama |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
173
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:39:00 -
[1253] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Syndiaan wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible. How many more pages on this thread of people saying this change is dumb and we don't like it do we need to make to get this not to happen? Never, those somewhere up the tree have decided it is fun. And if they force it through we will thank them for it. You cannot cure that level of stupid.
The only cure for that is starvation of cash.
To be fair there only screwing up the best part of EVE in my eyes. Nobody wants to roll holes, its a pain in the arse at best, and at worst, it just wont be done. twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1096
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:45:00 -
[1254] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: If you believe that you have absolutely no idea of what this change entails.
The whole point is that there is absolutely nothing you can manage, you are just along for the ride, and each person who jumps into a hostile defence will live or die entirely and totally due to the luck of where he emerges in a great sphere. And NOTHING he can do will influence that.
You may as well have the ship randomly self destruct.
sounds like you'll have to put your thinking caps on and figure out the best fleet comps to jump into a hostile defense taking into account this mechanic you're basically furious someone moved your cheese: yes, the maze has changed and you will have to reconsider what fleet comp you use in attacking. nullsec does this like monthly, it's not too hard and many people (perhaps you, perhaps not) will learn to adapt I worked for a bank that used that kindergarden school of business management. The entire team was outsourced to India as it was felt that no one could do a worse job than them......
The maze now has a random trapdoor that kills the mice. There is NO way to adapt to Luck, that is the whole problem. If this had only been about spawn distance, that could have been dealt with, new tactics, new ships etc.
But no it was decided to spawn all the ships randomly in a vast sphere, where some would be out of support range, some surrounded and destroyed as they despawn, some with no hope of warping away, and with no possibility of making it back to the hole, it is not like gates, It is not like Jump Bridges, all the reasons have been explained in depth.
You live or die purely due to luck. Once you jump, your future is 100% down to luck. There are no choices to make, other than hide in your pos, or grr at each other from either side of the wormhole with NOBODY stupid enough to suicide against a defender that has such an overwhelming advantage. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:45:00 -
[1255] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: If you believe that you have absolutely no idea of what this change entails.
The whole point is that there is absolutely nothing you can manage, you are just along for the ride, and each person who jumps into a hostile defence will live or die entirely and totally due to the luck of where he emerges in a great sphere. And NOTHING he can do will influence that.
You may as well have the ship randomly self destruct.
sounds like you'll have to put your thinking caps on and figure out the best fleet comps to jump into a hostile defense taking into account this mechanic you're basically furious someone moved your cheese: yes, the maze has changed and you will have to reconsider what fleet comp you use in attacking. nullsec does this like monthly, it's not too hard and many people (perhaps you, perhaps not) will learn to adapt
How about they apply this change to jump bridges as well, think you would be whistling a different tune then. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1096
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:49:00 -
[1256] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: If you really think that gutting the core concept of eve, where our actions and those actions of those you meet are what decide our experience, is a positive direction for EVE you are welcome to continue.
L M B O please continue to spout melodrama The one good thing is that you will be far more screwed than we ever were. Now that would be worth resubscribing for to see, but it is too late I cannot be bothered any more. I'll read about it sometime I guess. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:52:00 -
[1257] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote: How about they apply this change to jump bridges as well, think you would be whistling a different tune then.
fine by me
jump bridges already spout you out 5km from the module, you have to burn back to jump back through
also if the aperture is wide enough, there's a chance that you'd land inside the JB pos which would be hilarious |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1097
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:53:00 -
[1258] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote: How about they apply this change to jump bridges as well, think you would be whistling a different tune then.
fine by me jump bridges already spout you out 5km from the module, you have to burn back to jump back through also if the aperture is wide enough, there's a chance that you'd land inside the JB pos which would be hilarious
Now try random with your fleet spread out all throughout a great sphere of space. While jumping into combat, out of refit range.
I wish you everything you have wished others and everything you deserve.
There you are Fozzie, Nullsec have just formally asked you to implement the same change on cynos and jump bridges.
I will not be here to see the effects. Sorry.
I am sure they will discuss it rationally with you, and will not be in the slightest bit angry, as they are so good at adapting. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:57:00 -
[1259] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote: How about they apply this change to jump bridges as well, think you would be whistling a different tune then.
fine by me jump bridges already spout you out 5km from the module, you have to burn back to jump back through also if the aperture is wide enough, there's a chance that you'd land inside the JB pos which would be hilarious Now try random with your fleet spread out all throughout a great sphere of space. While jumping into combat, out of refit range. I wish you everything you have wished others and everything you deserve. lawl you really have no idea what jump bridges are for do you
nothing you have described in your post is even remotely a concern when using a jump bridge
also please [TELL] me about the varied and sundry refit opportunities available for ships that can use a jump bridge (note: capital ships cannot use jump bridges)
keep in mind that no one will ever fly a nestor until it gets a covert jump drive |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:57:00 -
[1260] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote: How about they apply this change to jump bridges as well, think you would be whistling a different tune then.
fine by me jump bridges already spout you out 5km from the module, you have to burn back to jump back through also if the aperture is wide enough, there's a chance that you'd land inside the JB pos which would be hilarious
20km and 5km is a very big difference, and not just talking about where your pos is, talking about your cyno jumps as well. Difference is you can call in backup if you get jumped. When your rolling a hole there is no backup if your getting jumped. It's just rip out your implants and go grab a smoke. |
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:59:00 -
[1261] - Quote
i get that you are trying to draw an analog to a fixture of owning sov here, and one that you perceive to be both emotionally charged and draped in entitlement in order to draw out a kneejerk, emotional response
however this only really works if you actually know what you're talking about
this isn't the same thing as daring to comment on nullsec game features while being a self-identifying wormhole dweller -- we in nullsec welcome all opinions as long as said opinion havers have a basic clue about what they're talking about
you don't |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1097
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 17:59:00 -
[1262] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote: How about they apply this change to jump bridges as well, think you would be whistling a different tune then.
fine by me jump bridges already spout you out 5km from the module, you have to burn back to jump back through also if the aperture is wide enough, there's a chance that you'd land inside the JB pos which would be hilarious 20km and 5km is a very big difference, and not just talking about where your pos is, talking about your cyno jumps as well. Difference is you can call in backup if you get jumped. When your rolling a hole there is no backup if your getting jumped. It's just rip out your implants and go grab a smoke.
There are none so deaf as those who will not hear, you may as well try to discuss nuclear physics with a toddler, they have no idea, and no desire to learn.
Even if you try to make it so simple a three year old could understand, without finger puppets, you are going to get nowhere. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:00:00 -
[1263] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote: How about they apply this change to jump bridges as well, think you would be whistling a different tune then.
fine by me jump bridges already spout you out 5km from the module, you have to burn back to jump back through also if the aperture is wide enough, there's a chance that you'd land inside the JB pos which would be hilarious 20km and 5km is a very big difference, and not just talking about where your pos is, talking about your cyno jumps as well. Difference is you can call in backup if you get jumped. When your rolling a hole there is no backup if your getting jumped. It's just rip out your implants and go grab a smoke. nice -- you realize that you're talking out of your ass re: jump bridges and now have expanded the parameters to include something completely unrelated |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
724
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:00:00 -
[1264] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Now try random with your fleet spread out all throughout a great sphere of space. While jumping into combat, out of refit range.
I wish you everything you have wished others and everything you deserve.
jump through a smuggler gate sometimes, you get spread out in a huge sphere
somehow we have dealt with it for the greater part of a decade without throwing a hissy fit |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:03:00 -
[1265] - Quote
hint: capital ships are not the only ships in the game
there are these things called subcaps which enjoy greater mobility and tend to be more useful in situations where you need to be more mobile |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:04:00 -
[1266] - Quote
subcaps by and large cannot refit in combat so you have to, gasp, pick one fit that will work for most everything you encounter
I get that rooks and kings put out a video a couple of years ago that was cool but emulating them is not the only valid way to play eve |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1097
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:04:00 -
[1267] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Now try random with your fleet spread out all throughout a great sphere of space. While jumping into combat, out of refit range.
I wish you everything you have wished others and everything you deserve.
jump through a smuggler gate sometimes, you get spread out in a huge sphere somehow we have dealt with it for the greater part of a decade without throwing a hissy fit
Wormholes are not gates, never were, never will be. Maybe if we polarized gates, and they opened up to a different place ever time, with mass limits, no cynos, no way whatsoever home you might understand, but we probably would as I previously said need finger puppets too.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
724
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:04:00 -
[1268] - Quote
like seriously guys if you're going to try to insult nullsec you're going to have to do a little research because you just basically pointed out we've lived with this situation jumping through a gate since forever (and a smuggler/regional gate is a way bigger sphere), clearly you can live with it too if you learn to adapt
jumping into a gatecamp in force and winning is a standard part of nullsec warfare that we've managed to live with for years despite the gate randomly dispersing everyone around it |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1097
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:06:00 -
[1269] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:subcaps by and large cannot refit in combat so you have to, gasp, pick one fit that will work for most everything you encounter
I get that rooks and kings put out a video a couple of years ago that was cool but emulating them is not the only valid way to play eve Go back to post 2 and read from there , you might have a clue, as you have absolutely no idea at this point in time. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:12:00 -
[1270] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: What fleet comps? There are none you You CANNOT REINFORCE,!!!!
That is what a mass limit means!
smaller ships have lower mass
this means you can bring more of them
there are ships in eve that are not capital ships |
|
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
724
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:12:00 -
[1271] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: What fleet comps? There are none you You CANNOT REINFORCE,!!!!
That is what a mass limit means!
nope, that's not what a mass limit means
a mass limit means there is a limit to the amount of mass you can bring through, and if that's preventing your reinforcements perhaps you should have spent that limited resource more wisely |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:14:00 -
[1272] - Quote
some serious rooks and kings cargo culting going on itt
or perhaps itwhs (in this wormhole space) |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1099
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:14:00 -
[1273] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: What fleet comps? There are none you You CANNOT REINFORCE,!!!!
That is what a mass limit means!
smaller ships have lower mass this means you can bring more of them there are ships in eve that are not capital ships
Yes there are. And as you have no clue whatsoever about why a capital ship is utilised, then you have no Idea how bat **** crazy that sounds. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:14:00 -
[1274] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:like seriously guys if you're going to try to insult nullsec you're going to have to do a little research because you just basically pointed out we've lived with this situation jumping through a gate since forever (and a smuggler/regional gate is a way bigger sphere), clearly you can live with it too if you learn to adapt
jumping into a gatecamp in force and winning is a standard part of nullsec warfare that we've managed to live with for years despite the gate randomly dispersing everyone around it
No one is insulting null sec here so I don't know what you are trying to get at.
There is a big difference from gates and wormholes, you do not get polarized on gates, gates do not have mass limits, we cannot see if there is a cloaky fleet waiting by looking at local/scouting ahead. If your fleet gets rolled out in a wormhole, that's it, there is no backup or way to adapt. When we are looking for pvp we cant just cyno around looking for fights, we have to roll a connection that has pvp and if there isn't we have to roll it again to find something else.
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:17:00 -
[1275] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: What fleet comps? There are none you You CANNOT REINFORCE,!!!!
That is what a mass limit means!
smaller ships have lower mass this means you can bring more of them there are ships in eve that are not capital ships
have you ever tried rolling a c5/6 wormhole with only sub caps? |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:18:00 -
[1276] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote: Nullsec has been desperately agitating for changes. As nullsec requires adaptability nullsec does not have the same reflexive rage at changes in mechanics that require you to adapt: in fact, veterans relish mechanics changeups that force us out of sclerotic ways of doing things that were optimized years ago and force us to use our noggins.
Great lets put this change on cynos, jump bridges and nullsec stargates and we'll see how you guys "adapt". I would relish the feedback thread. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:19:00 -
[1277] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: What fleet comps? There are none you You CANNOT REINFORCE,!!!!
That is what a mass limit means!
smaller ships have lower mass this means you can bring more of them there are ships in eve that are not capital ships Yes there are. And as you have no clue whatsoever about why a capital ship is utilised, then you have no Idea how bat **** crazy that sounds. and now capital ships actually have a modicum of risk to attack with, horror of horrors
you don't need capships to pvp, nor do you need them to siege a pos
for more information look up the stealth bomber class frigate |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:19:00 -
[1278] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: What fleet comps? There are none you You CANNOT REINFORCE,!!!!
That is what a mass limit means!
smaller ships have lower mass this means you can bring more of them there are ships in eve that are not capital ships have you ever tried rolling a c5/6 wormhole with only sub caps? i'm sure it sucks
the alternative is to accept the risk, or (gasp) don't roll at all |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:21:00 -
[1279] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote: Nullsec has been desperately agitating for changes. As nullsec requires adaptability nullsec does not have the same reflexive rage at changes in mechanics that require you to adapt: in fact, veterans relish mechanics changeups that force us out of sclerotic ways of doing things that were optimized years ago and force us to use our noggins.
Great lets put this change on cynos, jump bridges and nullsec stargates and we'll see how you guys "adapt". I would relish the feedback thread. the distance thing already exists on gates, is meaningless on jump bridges, and anything that comes through a cyno in nullsec has the EHP to deal with it
but by all means continue tossing darts at the Perceived Nullsec Entitlement board to see if you can get a bullseye |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
724
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:22:00 -
[1280] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote: No one is insulting null sec here so I don't know what you are trying to get at.
your compatriots could not even go like five minutes without showing you exactly what i was trying to get at
Maduin Shi wrote: Great lets put this change on cynos, jump bridges and nullsec stargates and we'll see how you guys "adapt". I would relish the feedback thread.
|
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1100
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:22:00 -
[1281] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: What fleet comps? There are none you You CANNOT REINFORCE,!!!!
That is what a mass limit means!
smaller ships have lower mass this means you can bring more of them there are ships in eve that are not capital ships have you ever tried rolling a c5/6 wormhole with only sub caps? i'm sure it sucks the alternative is to accept the risk, or (gasp) don't roll at all
That is exactly the solution, so no more PVP, shame. You do actually understand that this prevents searching for ships to shoot? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:24:00 -
[1282] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: What fleet comps? There are none you You CANNOT REINFORCE,!!!!
That is what a mass limit means!
smaller ships have lower mass this means you can bring more of them there are ships in eve that are not capital ships have you ever tried rolling a c5/6 wormhole with only sub caps? i'm sure it sucks the alternative is to accept the risk, or (gasp) don't roll at all
That would be like having your pvp fleet in a staging system ready to go out fighting and turning off all your stargates and puting a cyno blocker up for over 24 hours. Does that sound like fun? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
735
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:24:00 -
[1283] - Quote
Funny how the only people who support this change are... well pretty much goonswarm... |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:24:00 -
[1284] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote: have you ever tried rolling a c5/6 wormhole with only sub caps?
i'm sure it sucks the alternative is to accept the risk, or (gasp) don't roll at all That is exactly the solution, so no more PVP, shame. You do actually understand that this prevents searching for ships to shoot? seeing as this change does not remove rolling holes and is not removing the ability to scan down chains of holes for pvp, I fail to see your point
now if you are arguing that it removes risk-free searching for PvP then yes, that is the entire point |
Klarion Sythis
Literally Solo
299
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:25:00 -
[1285] - Quote
This thread is ******* terrible. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:29:00 -
[1286] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:I'm bored with this, there's no hope of explaining colour to a blind man. They will never understand. Good luck. Maybe see you in a couple of years. If there is anything worth doing by then. we understand bitter, entrenched entitlement better than you ever will |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:30:00 -
[1287] - Quote
also ending every post with how little you care about the subject is sure to lend all kinds of credence to your opinion |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:32:00 -
[1288] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote: have you ever tried rolling a c5/6 wormhole with only sub caps?
i'm sure it sucks the alternative is to accept the risk, or (gasp) don't roll at all That is exactly the solution, so no more PVP, shame. You do actually understand that this prevents searching for ships to shoot? seeing as this change does not remove rolling holes and is not removing the ability to scan down chains of holes for pvp, I fail to see your point now if you are arguing that it removes risk-free searching for PvP then yes, that is the entire point
I dont understand how you consider jumping capitals over into a system where you can get rolled out with no backup to come help you is "risk free". In nullsec you just send out scouts to find pvp and then signal the fleet to come on over, sounds a lot less risky to me. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:32:00 -
[1289] - Quote
see also: how many accounts you are unsubscribing due to your change
man I sure am motivated by folks using their subscription dollars as a hostage |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:36:00 -
[1290] - Quote
Quote:Syndiaan wrote:seeing as this change does not remove rolling holes and is not removing the ability to scan down chains of holes for pvp, I fail to see your point
now if you are arguing that it removes risk-free searching for PvP then yes, that is the entire point I dont understand how you consider jumping capitals over into a system where you can get rolled out with no backup to come help you is "risk free". In nullsec you just send out scouts to find pvp and then signal the fleet to come on over, sounds a lot less risky to me. ah yes getting rolled out hrm
let's examine the mass exhaustion experience, shall we
I warp to my static with three dreads or w/e
I jump through, then jump back when my session timer exhausts
there is a 10 second window in which a counter-exhausting force could jump through, assuming the client responds in time (which it usually does)
the opposing rollers would have to be set up on your wormhole waiting for you to jump in in order to do that, and even if they did, they would be trapped on YOUR side of the wormhole by doing something so monumentally stupid
and I guess they don't have scouts where you live as by your post they are a nullsec-only feature |
|
LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
129
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:38:00 -
[1291] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
First off I would like to thank you for at least acknowledging the situation in this thread. I would very much like if you would continue to post your reasoning on why you think this change will play out differently than we think it will. Because right now we believe these are your three goals.
Make rage rolling harder and more risky. Reduce the speed at which rage rolling can be done. And give defenders more of an advantage, make it impossible for small groups to use caps effectively and give a larger advantage to bigger wormhole groups.
The last one is assumed because you have failed to post your reasoning on why the change 'must' happen in the it's current form and why it cannot be done in a way that doesn't change several fundamental parts of wormhole pvp. Since assuming it makes an ass out of you and me, why don't you clarify it?
Because there are other ways to achieve the first two goals without causing the third and many of us don't see why you don't use those other ways and insist on sticking to the one that is the reasoning behind all this anger in the thread.
To clarify my point, we don't care about slower and more risky rage rolling (At least the majority of us). We do care the the fundamental aspects of wormhole pvp are being changed in such a way that many more advantages are being given to larger groups and the defending side of a wormhole. So what is preventing you from catering the change to achieve your specific goals you have stated in your dev blog and in this thread without causing the third goal. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
736
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:40:00 -
[1292] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: ah yes getting rolled out hrm
let's examine the mass exhaustion experience, shall we
I warp to my static with three dreads or w/e
I jump through, then jump back when my session timer exhausts
there is a 10 second window in which a counter-exhausting force could jump through, assuming the client responds in time (which it usually does)
the opposing rollers would have to be set up on your wormhole waiting for you to jump in in order to do that, and even if they did, they would be trapped on YOUR side of the wormhole by doing something so monumentally stupid
and I guess they don't have scouts where you live as by your post they are a nullsec-only feature
No offence but in the context of wormhole space that is one the of the daftest posts I've read in awhile... kindly do yourself a favor and head on down to Features & Ideas Discussion or something where you might be a little less out of your depth. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:40:00 -
[1293] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Maduin Shi wrote:Retar Aveymone wrote: Nullsec has been desperately agitating for changes. As nullsec requires adaptability nullsec does not have the same reflexive rage at changes in mechanics that require you to adapt: in fact, veterans relish mechanics changeups that force us out of sclerotic ways of doing things that were optimized years ago and force us to use our noggins.
Great lets put this change on cynos, jump bridges and nullsec stargates and we'll see how you guys "adapt". I would relish the feedback thread. the distance thing already exists on gates, is meaningless on jump bridges, and anything that comes through a cyno in nullsec has the EHP to deal with it but by all means continue tossing darts at the Perceived Nullsec Entitlement board to see if you can get a bullseye
Its only a question of adding more randomness and/or spacing between ships before it becomes a problem for you too, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not. Then you'll see where we're at with this thing. I have no beef with null, but the idea that you can "adapt" to random spawns (aside from deciding not to spawn) is foolishness. |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:40:00 -
[1294] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Quote:Syndiaan wrote:seeing as this change does not remove rolling holes and is not removing the ability to scan down chains of holes for pvp, I fail to see your point
now if you are arguing that it removes risk-free searching for PvP then yes, that is the entire point I dont understand how you consider jumping capitals over into a system where you can get rolled out with no backup to come help you is "risk free". In nullsec you just send out scouts to find pvp and then signal the fleet to come on over, sounds a lot less risky to me. ah yes getting rolled out hrm let's examine the mass exhaustion experience, shall we I warp to my static with three dreads or w/e I jump through, then jump back when my session timer exhausts there is a 10 second window in which a counter-exhausting force could jump through, assuming the client responds in time (which it usually does) the opposing rollers would have to be set up on your wormhole waiting for you to jump in in order to do that, and even if they did, they would be trapped on YOUR side of the wormhole by doing something so monumentally stupid and I guess they don't have scouts where you live as by your post they are a nullsec-only feature
That is not true at all, they can have a capital ship cloaked up on your side and as soon as you jump your cap over to roll it they uncloak and jump theirs. you are now stuck on their side with a capital in your face and a subcap fleet showing up on D-scan.
Granted yeah if you are rage rolling that is not an issue because you will have eyes on the hole the whole time. I still do not see how you can sit there and say "wahhhh, risk free boat is over" when all you guys do is use intel channels and frigate scouts.
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
736
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:42:00 -
[1295] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:
That is not true at all, they can have a capital ship cloaked up on your side and as soon as you jump your cap over to roll it they uncloak and jump theirs. you are now stuck on their side with a capital in your face and a subcap fleet showing up on D-scan.
Granted yeah if you are rage rolling that is not an issue because you will have eyes on the hole the whole time. I still do not see how you can sit there and say "wahhhh, risk free boat is over" when all you guys do is use intel channels and frigate scouts.
Ah the good old cloaky thanny :D |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
35
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:44:00 -
[1296] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Rroff wrote:Funny how the only people who support this change are... well pretty much goonswarm... Yes, we know who decided this change. Never thought I would say Dinsdale was right.
He was right. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:46:00 -
[1297] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:ah yes getting rolled out hrm
let's examine the mass exhaustion experience, shall we
I warp to my static with three dreads or w/e
I jump through, then jump back when my session timer exhausts
there is a 10 second window in which a counter-exhausting force could jump through, assuming the client responds in time (which it usually does)
the opposing rollers would have to be set up on your wormhole waiting for you to jump in in order to do that, and even if they did, they would be trapped on YOUR side of the wormhole by doing something so monumentally stupid
and I guess they don't have scouts where you live as by your post they are a nullsec-only feature That is not true at all, they can have a capital ship cloaked up on your side and as soon as you jump your cap over to roll it they uncloak and jump theirs. you are now stuck on their side with a capital in your face and a subcap fleet showing up on D-scan. Granted yeah if you are rage rolling that is not an issue because you will have eyes on the hole the whole time. I still do not see how you can sit there and say "wahhhh, risk free boat is over" when all you guys do is use intel channels and frigate scouts. I don't get the "frigate scout" thing, it's not like covert ops frigates are banned from wspace, you guys use them too, what is even the deal with that
and yes, i was talking about rage rolling -- the idea of someone scrambling together a multi dread force in the 20, maybe 30 second window (the extra 10-20s is for your scout to bounce around the system a bit and dscan) to counter roll your hole like you describe is, frankly, ludicrous
it takes longer than that for the capital ships to even accelerate and decelerate from warp
it's that scenario in which hole rolling is safe (outside of pilot error) and the situation that this change is intending to dissolve |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:48:00 -
[1298] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: it's that scenario in which hole rolling is safe (outside of pilot error) and the situation that this change is intending to dissolve
Which it absolutely does nothing to address in any meaningful way - the only time the supposed increased risk actually applies in a meaningful way is in fringe cases and in those fringe cases it has a hugely negative impact on smaller entities.
Even your own post I'm quoting part from highlights that the risk factor isn't really a factor. |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:48:00 -
[1299] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Syndiaan wrote:
That is not true at all, they can have a capital ship cloaked up on your side and as soon as you jump your cap over to roll it they uncloak and jump theirs. you are now stuck on their side with a capital in your face and a subcap fleet showing up on D-scan.
Granted yeah if you are rage rolling that is not an issue because you will have eyes on the hole the whole time. I still do not see how you can sit there and say "wahhhh, risk free boat is over" when all you guys do is use intel channels and frigate scouts.
Ah the good old cloaky thanny :D (only done it once myself but had a few try it on us - so far unsuccessfully).
We have done it to people and people have done it to us successfully plenty of times.
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:52:00 -
[1300] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: it's that scenario in which hole rolling is safe (outside of pilot error) and the situation that this change is intending to dissolve
Which it absolutely does nothing to address in any meaningful way - the only time the supposed increased risk actually applies in a meaningful way is in fringe cases and in those fringe cases it has a hugely negative impact on smaller entities. Even your own post I'm quoting part from highlights that the risk factor isn't really a factor. cap ships landing outside of the activation range of the wormhole adds plenty of risk
a machariel is blessed with a generous top speed and cruiser-class warp speed -- it can easily land on the wormhole and bump a cap on grid before it can slowboat back to the hole
any caps attempting to warp to perches can be stymied by an interdictor, which is also blessed with a generous warp speed
sure, the caps will probably warp to their perch or celestial or whatever (luv 2 heat my mwds in caps to warp in 12s) but they sure as heck aren't making it back in range of the hole with a bubble on it
granted i am assuming perfect response times and no human error from either party in these scenarios but that is basically how everyone describes eve so here we are |
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:53:00 -
[1301] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:ah yes getting rolled out hrm
let's examine the mass exhaustion experience, shall we
I warp to my static with three dreads or w/e
I jump through, then jump back when my session timer exhausts
there is a 10 second window in which a counter-exhausting force could jump through, assuming the client responds in time (which it usually does)
the opposing rollers would have to be set up on your wormhole waiting for you to jump in in order to do that, and even if they did, they would be trapped on YOUR side of the wormhole by doing something so monumentally stupid
and I guess they don't have scouts where you live as by your post they are a nullsec-only feature That is not true at all, they can have a capital ship cloaked up on your side and as soon as you jump your cap over to roll it they uncloak and jump theirs. you are now stuck on their side with a capital in your face and a subcap fleet showing up on D-scan. Granted yeah if you are rage rolling that is not an issue because you will have eyes on the hole the whole time. I still do not see how you can sit there and say "wahhhh, risk free boat is over" when all you guys do is use intel channels and frigate scouts. I don't get the "frigate scout" thing, it's not like covert ops frigates are banned from wspace, you guys use them too, what is even the deal with that and yes, i was talking about rage rolling -- the idea of someone scrambling together a multi dread force in the 20, maybe 30 second window (the extra 10-20s is for your scout to bounce around the system a bit and dscan) to counter roll your hole like you describe is, frankly, ludicrous it takes longer than that for the capital ships to even accelerate and decelerate from warp it's that scenario in which hole rolling is safe (outside of pilot error) and the situation that this change is intending to dissolve
Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?
Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:55:00 -
[1302] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: cap ships landing outside of the activation range of the wormhole adds plenty of risk
a machariel is blessed with a generous top speed and cruiser-class warp speed -- it can easily land on the wormhole and bump a cap on grid before it can slowboat back to the hole
any caps attempting to warp to perches can be stymied by an interdictor, which is also blessed with a generous warp speed
sure, the caps will probably warp to their perch or celestial or whatever (luv 2 heat my mwds in caps to warp in 12s) but they sure as heck aren't making it back in range of the hole with a bubble on it
granted i am assuming perfect response times and no human error from either party in these scenarios but that is basically how everyone describes eve so here we are
It adds plenty of meaningless risk if there is no one there to exploit that risk and 99 times out of 100 there simply isn't someone there to exploit that risk while in the mean time adding extra tedium just to add risk to fringe cases. Is it really that difficult to understand? |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:56:00 -
[1303] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?
Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing. the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster
a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE
the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 18:59:00 -
[1304] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: cap ships landing outside of the activation range of the wormhole adds plenty of risk
a machariel is blessed with a generous top speed and cruiser-class warp speed -- it can easily land on the wormhole and bump a cap on grid before it can slowboat back to the hole
any caps attempting to warp to perches can be stymied by an interdictor, which is also blessed with a generous warp speed
sure, the caps will probably warp to their perch or celestial or whatever (luv 2 heat my mwds in caps to warp in 12s) but they sure as heck aren't making it back in range of the hole with a bubble on it
granted i am assuming perfect response times and no human error from either party in these scenarios but that is basically how everyone describes eve so here we are
It adds plenty of meaningless risk if there is no one there to exploit that risk and 99 times out of 100 there simply isn't someone there to exploit that risk while in the mean time adding extra tedium just to add risk to fringe cases. Is it really that difficult to understand? there's plenty of meaning -- it makes the activity interdictable by those with sharp reaction times and good planning where it could not realistically be interdicted before
the consistency at which the risk is realized is not and will never be an issue here |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:03:00 -
[1305] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: there's plenty of meaning -- it makes the activity interdictable by those with sharp reaction times and good planning where it could not realistically be interdicted before
the consistency at which the risk is realized is not and will never be an issue here
The activity is already interdictable by those with sharp reaction times, good planning and the balls to go for it.
|
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
111
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:04:00 -
[1306] - Quote
Hey Goon shitlord, get out of this thread.
THIS IS WHERE WH PEOPLE TALK, in the hope to get the dev's attention and to convey that this proposed change is BULLSHIT for many reaons, all mentioned here. Stop derailing this thread and get out.
now, CCP, ban me for posting in an offensive way, I stopped caring by now |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:07:00 -
[1307] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?
Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing. the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor
if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out.
EDIT: And i misspoke, there is not just a chance the battleship is going to mass crit it without rolling it, it WILL mass crit it without rolling it. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
152
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:09:00 -
[1308] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
If you truly gave a **** you'd explain your reasoning and explain to the community which people on your staff spent time in wormholes instead of this bullshit hand-waving.
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread
The fact that you went ahead with the mass changes proves that you are lying, and I don't know how much longer I want to play a game where the devs continually lie to the playerbase, especially after such things as T20 and Somer. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:13:00 -
[1309] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?
Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing. the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out. Most C5 holes: 10 battleships with MWD and most will close after the fleet jumps out and back. Sometimes the hole will close early, sometimes the hole won't be closed after this and more mass will be needed. But there you have it, 10 ships. Alternatively you could use 5 ships and wait between jumps for polarity to expire. As you want to jump things sequentially, it shouldn't add much time for 5 ships to do what 10 ships could.
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:16:00 -
[1310] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?
Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing. the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out. Most C5 holes: 10 battleships with MWD and most will close after the fleet jumps out and back. Sometimes the hole will close early, sometimes the hole won't be closed after this and more mass will be needed. But there you have it, 10 ships. Alternatively you could use 5 ships and wait between jumps for polarity to expire. As you want to jump things sequentially, it shouldn't add much time for 5 ships to do what 10 ships could.
without a capital ship anchored you are just going to mass crit the hole 9/10 times. |
|
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
591
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:23:00 -
[1311] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?
Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing. the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out. Most C5 holes: 10 battleships with MWD and most will close after the fleet jumps out and back. Sometimes the hole will close early, sometimes the hole won't be closed after this and more mass will be needed. But there you have it, 10 ships. Alternatively you could use 5 ships and wait between jumps for polarity to expire. As you want to jump things sequentially, it shouldn't add much time for 5 ships to do what 10 ships could.
To do this properly you want to use a orca, other wise your well on your way to having to use a closing hic (which in wh terms mean you ****** up rolling) Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1105
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:27:00 -
[1312] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Why do you insist on wormhole people looking to find content to have to risk billions of isk in order to do so?
Yes we use cov ops to scout just like you, the difference is you don't have to roll holes or scan out the systems. Spend the time scanning out all the sigs in the chain, just to find out there is nothing there. Now we have to come back and deal with rolling the wormhole with capitals getting shot out 20km away, so the choice is to either warp off and warp back or slowboat in a capital 20km. After that is done guess what, rinse and repeat, sometimes can take 10 + times doing it before you find something worth doing. the point here is that you don't actually have to risk billions of isk to do so, it just makes it faster a game mechanic becoming LESS feasible is not the same thing as making it UNFEASIBLE the change is slowing down the rate at which you can do this by adding the risk + warp or slowboat factor if you are referring to rolling connections with just subcaps then you are clearly underestimating the time it would take to roll a c6/5 wormhole with subcaps. You have to consider even the highest mass battleship would have to make LOTS of trips and after each trip you are polarized for 5 minutes not to mention without a capital ship to anchor on the other side there is a chance you are going to mass crit it and then have to use HICs to close it which then can take anywhere between 1 - 6 trips in order to close it, and still have a small risk of getting the HIC rolled out. Most C5 holes: 10 battleships with MWD and most will close after the fleet jumps out and back. Sometimes the hole will close early, sometimes the hole won't be closed after this and more mass will be needed. But there you have it, 10 ships. Alternatively you could use 5 ships and wait between jumps for polarity to expire. As you want to jump things sequentially, it shouldn't add much time for 5 ships to do what 10 ships could. To do this properly you want to use a orca, other wise your well on your way to having to use a closing hic (which in wh terms mean you ****** up rolling)
It's not the players or the HIC that ****** up rolling.
Sorry, I tried but it was just too tempting to resist. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:30:00 -
[1313] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: there's plenty of meaning -- it makes the activity interdictable by those with sharp reaction times and good planning where it could not realistically be interdicted before
the consistency at which the risk is realized is not and will never be an issue here
The activity is already interdictable by those with sharp reaction times, good planning and the balls to go for it. not when you're rage rolling
an established hole, sure |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:33:00 -
[1314] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: there's plenty of meaning -- it makes the activity interdictable by those with sharp reaction times and good planning where it could not realistically be interdicted before
the consistency at which the risk is realized is not and will never be an issue here
The activity is already interdictable by those with sharp reaction times, good planning and the balls to go for it. not when you're rage rolling an established hole, sure
Why are you so against people rage rolling though? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:47:00 -
[1315] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: not when you're rage rolling
an established hole, sure
Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best?
It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:51:00 -
[1316] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: not when you're rage rolling
an established hole, sure
Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best? It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works.
at least there is a window now
36 seconds is better than 0 seconds
or do you think that the window should be increased |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:53:00 -
[1317] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: at least there is a window now
36 seconds is better than 0 seconds
or do you think that the window should be increased
A window at any cost? regardless of what else it might destroy? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1105
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:54:00 -
[1318] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: not when you're rage rolling
an established hole, sure
Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best? It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works.
Really it is like young teenagers trying to be sex councillors. They have heard rumors of the mechanics, and one day might actually learn what's going on, probably mainly from pornography. maybe they will have some ideas after being married and having actually lived it for a few years. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
591
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:55:00 -
[1319] - Quote
right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.
So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.
ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.
Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.
If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.
Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.
Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.
Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.
Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.
If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.
You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.
TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.
I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 19:57:00 -
[1320] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: not when you're rage rolling
an established hole, sure
Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best? It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works. Really it is like young teenagers trying to be sex councillors. They have heard rumors of the mechanics, and one day might actually learn what's going on, probably mainly from pornography. God help them the first time they try, a large dose of reality awaits. Maybe they will have some ideas after being married and having actually lived it for a few years. what a wonderfully vague response
really you could mean anything by this
feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass |
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:03:00 -
[1321] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: at least there is a window now
36 seconds is better than 0 seconds
or do you think that the window should be increased
A window at any cost? regardless of what else it might destroy? EDIT: PS you want to post on your actual character? i am generally in favor of things that take no risk being changed to engender risk, yes
also this is my main -- really, even if it wasn't, I'm a goon, what more identifying information do you need |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1106
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:04:00 -
[1322] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: not when you're rage rolling
an established hole, sure
Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best? It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works. Really it is like young teenagers trying to be sex councillors. They have heard rumors of the mechanics, and one day might actually learn what's going on, probably mainly from pornography. God help them the first time they try, a large dose of reality awaits. Maybe they will have some ideas after being married and having actually lived it for a few years. what a wonderfully vague response really you could mean anything by this feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass
What you do in the bedroom is entirely your affair. I am pointing out that you know jackshit about wormholes and coming out with the most absurd ideas. Live in them a while and then your opinion might have some value when discussing changes to wormholes.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:05:00 -
[1323] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: not when you're rage rolling
an established hole, sure
Even with the change no one is going to catch you rage rolling unless they already have probes out, a fleet ready to go and prepared to jump straight into a fight they have limited intel on - which almost never happens - is it really worth all the negatives to make this tiny fringe scenario a little tiny bit more feasible at best? It seems a lot of people really don't have even half a clue how wormhole space actually works. Really it is like young teenagers trying to be sex councillors. They have heard rumors of the mechanics, and one day might actually learn what's going on, probably mainly from pornography. God help them the first time they try, a large dose of reality awaits. Maybe they will have some ideas after being married and having actually lived it for a few years. what a wonderfully vague response really you could mean anything by this feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass
Pretty sure he is saying you are in a null sec corp and do null sec stuff and trying to contribute to an aspect of the game you don't even participate in. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:05:00 -
[1324] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: what a wonderfully vague response
really you could mean anything by this
feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass
Did I miss a post where you gave a detailed explanation of why your for this change?, or even posting in this thread in the first place other than to try and stir people up? with all due/undue respect most of your posts seem to boil down to "it will increase risk duh!" while demonstrating only a vague knowledge of how the mechanics actually work in practise and missing some of the larger repercussions of the change due to missing the finer details. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:06:00 -
[1325] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:What you do in the bedroom is entirely your affair. I am pointing out that you know jackshit about wormholes and coming out with the most absurd ideas. Live in them a while and then your opinion might have some value when discussing changes to wormholes.
[citation needed] |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:07:00 -
[1326] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Pretty sure he is saying you are in a null sec corp and do null sec stuff and trying to contribute to an aspect of the game you don't even participate in. doesn't stop y'all from trying to suggest changes for jump bridges, as evidenced by the last couple of pages on this thread
nullsec is willing to entertain all opinions, why can't you |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:08:00 -
[1327] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Pretty sure he is saying you are in a null sec corp and do null sec stuff and trying to contribute to an aspect of the game you don't even participate in. doesn't stop y'all from trying to suggest changes for jump bridges, as evidenced by the last couple of pages on this thread nullsec is willing to entertain all opinions, why can't you
Because most of us are from null sec and have an understanding of it, how many wormhole corps have you been in and for how long? |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2115
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:08:00 -
[1328] - Quote
1 day left until this amazingly positive change.
The only thing that could be better is Sleepers finally waging war on all the POS's and PI farms in their space, and slowly wiping them all out. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:10:00 -
[1329] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Pretty sure he is saying you are in a null sec corp and do null sec stuff and trying to contribute to an aspect of the game you don't even participate in. doesn't stop y'all from trying to suggest changes for jump bridges, as evidenced by the last couple of pages on this thread nullsec is willing to entertain all opinions, why can't you
Largely it was attempts to draw parallels to what kind of change in null would be an approximate of this change and the reaction suggesting that kind of change would have from people who were connected to nullsec rather than an attack on nullsec. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
111
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:10:00 -
[1330] - Quote
corbexx wrote:right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.
So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.
ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.
Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.
If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.
Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.
Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.
Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.
Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.
If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.
You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.
TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.
I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me.
one can not possibly say it any better.
+1
o7
|
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1106
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:11:00 -
[1331] - Quote
corbexx wrote:right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.
So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.
ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.
Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.
If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.
Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.
Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.
Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.
Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.
If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.
You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.
TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.
I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me.
100% in agreement with EVERY single point, and it Has worried the crap out of me too. Good luck, doing nothing on this would be the BEST solution of all but I could live with any or all of your suggestions if it got rid of that terminally stupid luck Idea.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:11:00 -
[1332] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:1 day left until this amazingly positive change.
The only thing that could be better is Sleepers finally waging war on all the POS's and PI farms in their space, and slowly wiping them all out.
wouldn't really make sense since they are ancient ships that are offline until the warp drives of players warping in is what wakes them up...
:) |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:12:00 -
[1333] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: what a wonderfully vague response
really you could mean anything by this
feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass
Did I miss a post where you gave a detailed explanation of why your for this change?, or even posting in this thread in the first place other than to try and stir people up? with all due/undue respect most of your posts seem to boil down to "it will increase risk duh!" while demonstrating only a vague knowledge of how the mechanics actually work in practise and missing some of the larger repercussions of the change due to missing the finer details. i understand the changes just fine, thanks -- eve is not particularly complicated
adding the minimum distance that you spawn when jumping through a wormhole makes it so you can't immediately bounce back through the wormhole
it also puts you at significant risk of being out of range of refit, which will make Rooks and Kings video style capital fights more difficult
note that this does not affect remote repair range; a triage archon has a range of 52.5km with its remote armor reps, which is well within the worst-case scenario of your capitals spawning the maximum distance apart
this has the knock on effect of making rage rolling, the current way by which wormhole groups find both PvE and PvP content, take longer
feel free to fill in any details that you are strenuously claiming I'm missing; without specific details you are just fronting for a nuance that does not exist
remember -- you're not trying to convince me, you're trying to convince CCP
CCP needs these details, should they exist, way more than I do
your repeated, coruscating failure to provide said details means they might as well not exist |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:15:00 -
[1334] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Pretty sure he is saying you are in a null sec corp and do null sec stuff and trying to contribute to an aspect of the game you don't even participate in. doesn't stop y'all from trying to suggest changes for jump bridges, as evidenced by the last couple of pages on this thread nullsec is willing to entertain all opinions, why can't you Largely it was attempts to draw parallels to what kind of change in null would be an approximate of this change and the reaction suggesting that kind of change would have from people who were connected to nullsec rather than an attack on nullsec. ah so you are allowed to make parallels and we aren't, I see
when we dared to compare the random spawn distance to gate jump locations, the chorus of opinion from this thread clamored to assert that the two were not even remotely similar
also trying to liken jump bridges as a parallel to this change was supremely stupid -- no combat occurs on jump bridges, ever, and nothing that can use a jump bridge has or uses a refit service |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1106
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:15:00 -
[1335] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: what a wonderfully vague response
really you could mean anything by this
feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass
Did I miss a post where you gave a detailed explanation of why your for this change?, or even posting in this thread in the first place other than to try and stir people up? with all due/undue respect most of your posts seem to boil down to "it will increase risk duh!" while demonstrating only a vague knowledge of how the mechanics actually work in practise and missing some of the larger repercussions of the change due to missing the finer details. i understand the changes just fine, thanks -- eve is not particularly complicated adding the minimum distance that you spawn when jumping through a wormhole makes it so you can't immediately bounce back through the wormhole it also puts you at significant risk of being out of range of refit, which will make Rooks and Kings video style capital fights more difficult note that this does not affect remote repair range; a triage archon has a range of 52.5km with its remote armor reps, which is well within the worst-case scenario of your capitals spawning the maximum distance apart this has the knock on effect of making rage rolling, the current way by which wormhole groups find both PvE and PvP content, take longer feel free to fill in any details that you are strenuously claiming I'm missing; without specific details you are just fronting for a nuance that does not exist remember -- you're not trying to convince me, you're trying to convince CCP CCP needs these details, should they exist, way more than I do your repeated, coruscating failure to provide said details means they might as well not exist
How many posts now? Well if you want a clear concise pr+¬cis, read Corbexx post, He nails it well.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:17:00 -
[1336] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: what a wonderfully vague response
really you could mean anything by this
feel free to go into detail there Cochise, unless you are just trying to blow smoke up everyone's ass
Did I miss a post where you gave a detailed explanation of why your for this change?, or even posting in this thread in the first place other than to try and stir people up? with all due/undue respect most of your posts seem to boil down to "it will increase risk duh!" while demonstrating only a vague knowledge of how the mechanics actually work in practise and missing some of the larger repercussions of the change due to missing the finer details. i understand the changes just fine, thanks -- eve is not particularly complicated adding the minimum distance that you spawn when jumping through a wormhole makes it so you can't immediately bounce back through the wormhole it also puts you at significant risk of being out of range of refit, which will make Rooks and Kings video style capital fights more difficult note that this does not affect remote repair range; a triage archon has a range of 52.5km with its remote armor reps, which is well within the worst-case scenario of your capitals spawning the maximum distance apart this has the knock on effect of making rage rolling, the current way by which wormhole groups find both PvE and PvP content, take longer feel free to fill in any details that you are strenuously claiming I'm missing; without specific details you are just fronting for a nuance that does not exist remember -- you're not trying to convince me, you're trying to convince CCP CCP needs these details, should they exist, way more than I do your repeated, coruscating failure to provide said details means they might as well not exist
Do you just have a personal hatred for wormhole people or something? So your idea of a good change is to make finding content in a game take longer and more frustrating? |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:19:00 -
[1337] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:How many posts now? Well if you want a clear concise pr+¬cis, read Corbexx post, He nails it well.
corbexx's post gives his opinion on how the change will affect the game
the details for which I ask are to prove my supposed ignorance of wormhole space game mechanics, thus making or breaking my authority at which to speak on this topic
note that my alliance does not serve to prove or disprove said authority
please stay on target |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:20:00 -
[1338] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Do you just have a personal hatred for wormhole people or something? So your idea of a good change is to make finding content in a game take longer and more frustrating? it's to give it the potential for being interdicted |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
742
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:23:00 -
[1339] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: remember -- you're not trying to convince me, you're trying to convince CCP
CCP needs these details, should they exist, way more than I do
your repeated, coruscating failure to provide said details means they might as well not exist
If CCP wants these finer details they are more than free to take part in the topic here.
Your posts demonstrates a theoretical knowledge of the application of these mechanics - as you said its not that complex but shows a lack of practical knowledge of how they tend to work out in actual use. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
111
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:24:00 -
[1340] - Quote
Why are you guys even feeding the goon troll? |
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:25:00 -
[1341] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: remember -- you're not trying to convince me, you're trying to convince CCP
CCP needs these details, should they exist, way more than I do
your repeated, coruscating failure to provide said details means they might as well not exist
If CCP wants these finer details they are more than free to take part in the topic here. Your posts demonstrates a theoretical knowledge of the application of these mechanics - as you said its not that complex but shows a lack of practical knowledge of how they tend to work out in actual use. (PS your not fooling me even if I am somewhat humouring you). then explain the details
doing so gives you an inviolate position of superiority and I can't understand why you aren't willing to seize something so simple |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:26:00 -
[1342] - Quote
like i get opsec and everything but by all accounts itt your VERY WAY OF LIFE is in danger
if i were as entitled you can bet i'd be willing to part with damn near anything to help my case |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:30:00 -
[1343] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:Why are you guys even feeding the goon troll?
Because most here are used to a much better quality of troll. to the point its difficult to recognise a standard troll :) So Much Space |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
743
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:30:00 -
[1344] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote: There is already risk for rolling wormholes which has been stated numerous times. All this is going to do is slow down rage rolling, it isn't even going to be a risk because even if someone instantly spots the new sig, which usually doesn't happen, especially when the change that the new sig wont even show up until someone jumps the hole which gives the fleet time to gather on the new hole and be in position. Even if they do instantly spot the new sig, happen to already have their probes out, scan the hole, warp to it, also happen to have a gank fleet already setup and ready to warp to the scanner when he lands, its already going to be too late.
Small entities aside the risk factor isn't really a factor and a tangent really as to the issues here - most of the people posting in this thread belong to entities that are large enough to defend capitals against most of the threats they would likely to encounter other than each other, largely not afraid to fight each and big enough to do things like fund corp/alliance capitals for hole closing, etc. and/or even have disposable characters for just that. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1106
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:31:00 -
[1345] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:How many posts now? Well if you want a clear concise pr+¬cis, read Corbexx post, He nails it well.
corbexx's post gives his opinion on how the change will affect the game the details for which I ask are to prove my supposed ignorance of wormhole space game mechanics, thus making or breaking my authority at which to speak on this topic note that my alliance does not serve to prove or disprove said authority please stay on target
You have no authority. You are simply a player expressing opinions on an area of space you have no reason to be concerned with. Your only input is whether you get caps away from nullsec holes so you can hotdrop them.
It is not my role to educate you, you have a basic grasp of the concepts, but as you are not aware of the linking structures and effects across the whole of space, you have no concept as to how this affects the overall environment for players who DO live there. I have no desire to separate, the foolish from the sensible comments, I do not have that much patience.
You have NO right to demand more. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:34:00 -
[1346] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:How many posts now? Well if you want a clear concise pr+¬cis, read Corbexx post, He nails it well.
corbexx's post gives his opinion on how the change will affect the game the details for which I ask are to prove my supposed ignorance of wormhole space game mechanics, thus making or breaking my authority at which to speak on this topic note that my alliance does not serve to prove or disprove said authority please stay on target You have no authority. You are simply a player expressing opinions on an area of space you have no reason to be concerned with. Your only input is whether you get caps away from nullsec holes so you can hotdrop them. It is not my role to educate you, you have a basic grasp of the concepts, but as you are not aware of the linking structures and effects across the whole of space, you have no concept as to how this affects the overall environment for players who DO live there. I have no desire to separate, the foolish from the sensible comments, I do not have that much patience. You have NO right to demand more. translation: there is actually nothing other than a strained attempt to leverage my membership in my alliance into a position of non-authority on the matter
please stow this tired argument from authority |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:36:00 -
[1347] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Do you just have a personal hatred for wormhole people or something? So your idea of a good change is to make finding content in a game take longer and more frustrating? it's to give it the potential for being interdicted There is already risk for rolling wormholes which has been stated numerous times. All this is going to do is slow down rage rolling, it isn't even going to be a risk because even if someone instantly spots the new sig, which usually doesn't happen, especially when the change that the new sig wont even show up until someone jumps the hole which gives the fleet time to gather on the new hole and be in position. Even if they do instantly spot the new sig, happen to already have their probes out, scan the hole, warp to it, also happen to have a gank fleet already setup and ready to warp to the scanner when he lands, its already going to be too late. except there isn't any risk on TQ today -- you said so in your own words two pages back: Syndiaan wrote:Granted yeah if you are rage rolling that is not an issue because you will have eyes on the hole the whole time.
I think you are overestimating how often rage rolling goes on. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1106
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:37:00 -
[1348] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:How many posts now? Well if you want a clear concise pr+¬cis, read Corbexx post, He nails it well.
corbexx's post gives his opinion on how the change will affect the game the details for which I ask are to prove my supposed ignorance of wormhole space game mechanics, thus making or breaking my authority at which to speak on this topic note that my alliance does not serve to prove or disprove said authority please stay on target You have no authority. You are simply a player expressing opinions on an area of space you have no reason to be concerned with. Your only input is whether you get caps away from nullsec holes so you can hotdrop them. It is not my role to educate you, you have a basic grasp of the concepts, but as you are not aware of the linking structures and effects across the whole of space, you have no concept as to how this affects the overall environment for players who DO live there. I have no desire to separate, the foolish from the sensible comments, I do not have that much patience. You have NO right to demand more. translation: there is actually nothing other than a strained attempt to leverage my membership in my alliance into a position of non-authority on the matter please stow this tired argument from authority
Bye troll. Seen much better. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
154
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:37:00 -
[1349] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:How many posts now? Well if you want a clear concise pr+¬cis, read Corbexx post, He nails it well.
corbexx's post gives his opinion on how the change will affect the game the details for which I ask are to prove my supposed ignorance of wormhole space game mechanics, thus making or breaking my authority at which to speak on this topic note that my alliance does not serve to prove or disprove said authority please stay on target You have no authority. You are simply a player expressing opinions on an area of space you have no reason to be concerned with. Your only input is whether you get caps away from nullsec holes so you can hotdrop them. It is not my role to educate you, you have a basic grasp of the concepts, but as you are not aware of the linking structures and effects across the whole of space, you have no concept as to how this affects the overall environment for players who DO live there. I have no desire to separate, the foolish from the sensible comments, I do not have that much patience. You have NO right to demand more. translation: there is actually nothing other than a strained attempt to leverage my membership in my alliance into a position of non-authority on the matter please stow this tired argument from authority
Like I said before, are you gonna take car advice from the dude down the street who knows nothing on the subject (goons) or are you gonna go to the professionals (Literally any of the wh corps in this thread)?
At the same time, you're attempting to leverage your alliance membership into a position of someone who should be listened to, as opposed to being the tired kid at the mall who wants to go home right NOW and wants candy that he saw another kid get. Please leave wormhole space to wormhole residents, and stop talking out of your ass. It's bad enough that CCP Fozzie is currently talking out of his ass, let's not try to take his job away. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:38:00 -
[1350] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:I think you are overestimating how often rage rolling goes on. By all accounts in this thread it is the only thing that wormholers have TO do at all -- why else post with such apoplexy on the topic |
|
Bloemkoolsaus
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
174
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:39:00 -
[1351] - Quote
corbexx wrote:right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.
So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.
ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.
Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.
If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.
Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.
Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.
Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.
Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.
If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.
You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.
TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.
I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me.
+1 |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:41:00 -
[1352] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Like I said before, are you gonna take car advice from the dude down the street who knows nothing on the subject (goons) or are you gonna go to the professionals (Literally any of the wh corps in this thread)?
At the same time, you're attempting to leverage your alliance membership into a position of someone who should be listened to, as opposed to being the tired kid at the mall who wants to go home right NOW and wants candy that he saw another kid get. Please leave wormhole space to wormhole residents, and stop talking out of your ass. It's bad enough that CCP Fozzie is currently talking out of his ass, let's not try to take his job away. your car analogy, which appreciated for being a car analogy (best analogies) is not particularly relevant to a video game like eve that rewards secrecy as much as it does -- for all you know, I could have a character in your corp right now, living in w-space
mechanics tend to self-identify as mechanics and don't have secret lives as florists or something similarly contrived
and who says I am leveraging my alliance membership into anything, i am not special and neither is my alliance, I am just one person talking about a video game |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:43:00 -
[1353] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:I think you are overestimating how often rage rolling goes on. By all accounts in this thread it is the only thing that wormholers have TO do at all -- why else post with such apoplexy on the topic
That is a perfect example of why you should not be contributing to the discussion of this change if that is how you see wormholes. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:44:00 -
[1354] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Syndiaan wrote:I think you are overestimating how often rage rolling goes on. By all accounts in this thread it is the only thing that wormholers have TO do at all -- why else post with such apoplexy on the topic That is a perfect example of why you should not be contributing to the discussion of this change if that is how you see wormholes. it's not how I see wormholes -- it's how self-identifying wormhole dwellers are representing themselves in the thread |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:46:00 -
[1355] - Quote
here is debate 101 -- when arguing for something, you have to establish authority with facts and evidence
you can't put on a shirt with "AUTHORITY ABOUT [TOPIC]" and then deride your opponent for not wearing the same shirt |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
154
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:47:00 -
[1356] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Like I said before, are you gonna take car advice from the dude down the street who knows nothing on the subject (goons) or are you gonna go to the professionals (Literally any of the wh corps in this thread)?
At the same time, you're attempting to leverage your alliance membership into a position of someone who should be listened to, as opposed to being the tired kid at the mall who wants to go home right NOW and wants candy that he saw another kid get. Please leave wormhole space to wormhole residents, and stop talking out of your ass. It's bad enough that CCP Fozzie is currently talking out of his ass, let's not try to take his job away. your car analogy, which appreciated for being a car analogy (best analogies) is not particularly relevant to a video game like eve that rewards secrecy as much as it does -- for all you know, I could have a character in your corp right now, living in w-space mechanics tend to self-identify as mechanics and don't have secret lives as florists or something similarly contrived and who says I am leveraging my alliance membership into anything, i am not special and neither is my alliance, I am just one person talking about a video game
I can just about guarantee that you don't have an alt in my corp since it's just me in here.
I don't know what you're trying to do with your mechanics thing, but please do enlighten me as to your reasoning for going to the dude who knows nothing instead of the people who know what they're doing.
If I must use a simpler analogy for your mind, would you ask a 5 day old character who just joined EVE about supercapital tactics and titan fits? No, because they don't know what you're talking about. And neither does 99% of the Goonswarm posts in this thread. |
Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
143
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:48:00 -
[1357] - Quote
+1 to Corbex's post. Its pretty good reason why its a **** idea and why it will remain a **** idea. Rage rolling wont be affected risk wise since you can still role faster than they can catch you. It will however make rage rolling more of a pain in the ass then it is already and CCP obviously do not understand why we rage roll in the first place, and a hint btw it is not to do with ganking people.
This change WILL kill off a part of WH space, that is a fact and if you don't understand why then you shouldn't be in this thread in the first place. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:50:00 -
[1358] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote: I don't know what you're trying to do with your mechanics thing, but please do enlighten me as to your reasoning for going to the dude who knows nothing instead of the people who know what they're doing.
If I must use a simpler analogy for your mind, would you ask a 5 day old character who just joined EVE about supercapital tactics and titan fits? No, because they don't know what you're talking about. And neither does 99% of the Goonswarm posts in this thread.
the point is that you can't establish who has the authority from their alliance tag because that is not how authority works
we don't establish that mechanics have authority because they walk down the street wearing a sandwich board with "MECHANIC" drawn on the front in crayon, we establish it with facts and evidence
the "I have an alt in your corp" nonsense is to illustrate that allegiances in this game are not as cut and dried as your alliance tag
and, again, if I'm so out of touch with how wormhole space works, feel free to drop some hard facts on me proving my ignorance |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
744
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:54:00 -
[1359] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote: I don't know what you're trying to do with your mechanics thing, but please do enlighten me as to your reasoning for going to the dude who knows nothing instead of the people who know what they're doing.
If I must use a simpler analogy for your mind, would you ask a 5 day old character who just joined EVE about supercapital tactics and titan fits? No, because they don't know what you're talking about. And neither does 99% of the Goonswarm posts in this thread.
the point is that you can't establish who has the authority from their alliance tag because that is not how authority works we don't establish that mechanics have authority because they walk down the street wearing a sandwich board with "MECHANIC" drawn on the front in crayon, we establish it with facts and evidence the "I have an alt in your corp" nonsense is to illustrate that allegiances in this game are not as cut and dried as your alliance tag and, again, if I'm so out of touch with how wormhole space works, feel free to drop some hard facts on me proving my ignorance
But but I like my sandwich board with member of Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork on it :| |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
148
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:54:00 -
[1360] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Enthropic wrote:Why are you guys even feeding the goon troll? Because most here are used to a much better quality of troll. to the point its difficult to recognise a standard troll :) We should pay them in kind when the sov changes threads are up. Mutual Assured Destruction AKA MAD.
|
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:56:00 -
[1361] - Quote
Rroff wrote: But but I like my sandwich board with member of Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork on it :|
same except goonswarm federation |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
745
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:57:00 -
[1362] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Enthropic wrote:Why are you guys even feeding the goon troll? Because most here are used to a much better quality of troll. to the point its difficult to recognise a standard troll :) We should pay them in kind when the sov changes threads are up. Mutual Assured Destruction AKA MAD.
Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 20:59:00 -
[1363] - Quote
Rroff wrote:unimatrix0030 wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Enthropic wrote:Why are you guys even feeding the goon troll? Because most here are used to a much better quality of troll. to the point its difficult to recognise a standard troll :) We should pay them in kind when the sov changes threads are up. Mutual Assured Destruction AKA MAD. Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol point me at 'em when they come up and i'll strike them down just like I did here |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1106
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:05:00 -
[1364] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote: I don't know what you're trying to do with your mechanics thing, but please do enlighten me as to your reasoning for going to the dude who knows nothing instead of the people who know what they're doing.
If I must use a simpler analogy for your mind, would you ask a 5 day old character who just joined EVE about supercapital tactics and titan fits? No, because they don't know what you're talking about. And neither does 99% of the Goonswarm posts in this thread.
the point is that you can't establish who has the authority from their alliance tag because that is not how authority works we don't establish that mechanics have authority because they walk down the street wearing a sandwich board with "MECHANIC" drawn on the front in crayon, we establish it with facts and evidence the "I have an alt in your corp" nonsense is to illustrate that allegiances in this game are not as cut and dried as your alliance tag and, again, if I'm so out of touch with how wormhole space works, feel free to drop some hard facts on me proving my ignorance
Note;- we do not care. You are not relevant, you bring nothing relevant, repeat, we do not care. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:06:00 -
[1365] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: You are not relevant, you bring nothing relevant, repeat, we do not care.
neither are you, seeing as you've given no proof that you know what the hell you're talking about |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1106
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:11:00 -
[1366] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: You are not relevant, you bring nothing relevant, repeat, we do not care.
neither are you, seeing as you've given no proof that you know what the hell you're talking about
Read what is already written, rather than demanding it all be explained personally to you.
Come on the Goons have already got what you wanted, you won,you ****** up the game for others. just stop gloating. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
36
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:13:00 -
[1367] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Enthropic wrote:Why are you guys even feeding the goon troll? Because most here are used to a much better quality of troll. to the point its difficult to recognise a standard troll :) We should pay them in kind when the sov changes threads are up. Mutual Assured Destruction AKA MAD.
No not really. null sec doesn't matter to us so commenting on null stuff is a waste of our time as we are not experts on it.
We are however experts in WH space and that is what we should discuss instead of some nullsecers credibility in this conversation as its quite frankly pointless.
Regarding Corbex's post +1 +1 +1
it echo's what everyone against this change has been saying and will continue to say
Edit: some spelling errors So Much Space |
Siliya
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:14:00 -
[1368] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
this is the biggest load of crap I have seen in a while however I have come to expect nothing less from you sir you have been told by us AND your CSM that this is a bad Idea and we dont want it ... tyou have been given Reasons in this forum and PAGES Long emails from your Wormhole CSM on this issue it has become blatantly obvious to us that your intent is to Whip it out and Hose the players, your CSM and the pages upon pages of feedback all down while you laugh maniacally
and as for the nullsecers griefing this thread ... would you enjoy it if this change were applied to Cynos ? Caps landing up to 14k from the Cyno ... Supers 18ish ?
every time this has been brought up nullsecers have shied away from it |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
597
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:16:00 -
[1369] - Quote
Jezza McWaffle wrote:+1 to Corbex's post. Its pretty good reason why its a **** idea and why it will remain a **** idea. Rage rolling wont be affected risk wise since you can still role faster than they can catch you. It will however make rage rolling more of a pain in the ass then it is already and CCP obviously do not understand why we rage roll in the first place, and a hint btw it is not to do with ganking people.
This change WILL kill off a part of WH space, that is a fact and if you don't understand why then you shouldn't be in this thread in the first place.
This is a very good point and one i left out. Alot of people are assuming rage rolling is for finding pvp and only done for that reason. Rage rolling is often done for loads of reasons (finding pvp being one of them) but its also used to other stuff. like getting supplys in from hisec. Heaven forbid some one is leaving wh space and needs to move caps out. you know what rage roll to find exits. Hey we just when bhaals deep and got stuff stuck. rage roll to find them. We have caps to bring in and no entrance, rage roll.
There are loads of reasons to rage roll not just pvp. and for the bigger corps its not going to be more risky just more of a pain in the arse and time consuming. For smaller corps well your in a much worse state. so much worse I can see people leaving over it (which they have already started to) Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:18:00 -
[1370] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: You are not relevant, you bring nothing relevant, repeat, we do not care.
neither are you, seeing as you've given no proof that you know what the hell you're talking about Read what is already written, rather than demanding it all be explained personally to you. Come on the Goons have already got what you wanted, you won,you ****** up the game for others. just stop gloating. I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about
also I don't give a wet crap what goons want -- i speak for myself |
|
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
597
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:21:00 -
[1371] - Quote
Go on i'll bite cos i'm bored
Promiscuous Female wrote: I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about
Ok so you have read my post whats wrong with it or what don't you agree with, or do you agree with it? Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
745
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:23:00 -
[1372] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about
also I don't give a wet crap what goons want -- i speak for myself
All you proved is your versed in the theoretical mechanics and lack much knowledge of the practical mechanics - anyone with even a minimal amount of experience with the practical side knows that 3 caps will close the wh without any getting back for instance.
For yet more examples of some of the more finer points see corbexx's post above. |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
440
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:23:00 -
[1373] - Quote
corbexx wrote:right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.
So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.
ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.
Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.
If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.
Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.
Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.
Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.
Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.
If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.
You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.
TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.
I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me.
Agreed completly. This is exaclty reason why people hate this change. Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:25:00 -
[1374] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about
also I don't give a wet crap what goons want -- i speak for myself
All you proved is your versed in the theoretical mechanics and lack much knowledge of the practical mechanics - anyone with even a minimal amount of experience with the practical side knows that 3 caps will close the wh without any getting back for instance (not a method usually used for rolling unless your extracting). For yet more examples of some of the more finer points see corbexx's post above. you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means
why is this so difficult to do |
unimatrix0030
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
148
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:34:00 -
[1375] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means
why is this so difficult to do
Hard to disprove your argument when you have none, then there are none we can disprove. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:35:00 -
[1376] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means
why is this so difficult to do
Maybe because this is not a "101- help the newbie" thread. These guys don't need to explain what is obvious for everyone living in w-space.
@Corbexx I am sure you did what you can to prevent this brainfart from spawning upon us. If there is anything we can do to help you let us know.
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:37:00 -
[1377] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Go on i'll bite cos i'm bored Promiscuous Female wrote: I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about
Ok so you have read my post whats wrong with it or what don't you agree with, or do you agree with it? your lengthy post, in general, has a fair assessment of how player behavior might change when the change goes through
however you are making a lot of assumptions on how people will react to things and I don't really agree with all of them but my opinions on how players will handle the change are similarly up in the air so I can't really concede or disagree meaningfully there
my main problem is that you're falling into the trap where refitting is some sacred cow that you are entitled to have -- it's difficult for me to sympathize with this (and, in fact, I would prefer that refitting be completely disallowed inside of the 15 minute aggression timer)
your proposed solution for controlling how far you appear from other people is basically garbage since no one in their right mind would jump through a wormhole at anything but the minimum required to land in refit, it's too optimizable and doesn't actually change anything
you're also warning of the dangers of people choosing to do nothing, which isn't really a danger
people are not required to prostate themselves towards your guns and allow you to destroy them, logging off is a valid option to deny you kills and make you go away
you end your post with another vague threat of unsubs, which is typical eve-o garbage which has never worked so I'm not sure why you bothered |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:40:00 -
[1378] - Quote
unimatrix0030 wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means
why is this so difficult to do
Hard to disprove your argument when you have none, then there are none we can disprove.
Bleedingthrough wrote:[quote=Promiscuous Female] Maybe because this is not a "101- help the newbie" thread. These guys don't need to explain what is obvious for everyone living in w-space.
hey -- if you guys want to sabotage your chances of making any change in line with your own desires by deliberately withholding information from the very people you deride as not understanding how your infinitely subtle and complex game environment (lol) works, then continue shooting yourselves in the foot
hint: the people you are deriding are ccp, not me |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:41:00 -
[1379] - Quote
okay I guess you are deriding me too but my opinion matters a lot less than ccp's does |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
601
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 21:54:00 -
[1380] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:corbexx wrote:Go on i'll bite cos i'm bored Promiscuous Female wrote: I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about
Ok so you have read my post whats wrong with it or what don't you agree with, or do you agree with it? your lengthy post, in general, has a fair assessment of how player behavior might change when the change goes through however you are making a lot of assumptions on how people will react to things and I don't really agree with all of them but my opinions on how players will handle the change are similarly up in the air so I can't really concede or disagree meaningfully there my main problem is that you're falling into the trap where refitting is some sacred cow that you are entitled to have -- it's difficult for me to sympathize with this (and, in fact, I would prefer that refitting be completely disallowed inside of the 15 minute aggression timer) your proposed solution for controlling how far you appear from other people is basically garbage since no one in their right mind would jump through a wormhole at anything but the minimum required to land in refit, it's too optimizable and doesn't actually change anything you're also warning of the dangers of people choosing to do nothing, which isn't really a danger people are not required to prostate themselves towards your guns and allow you to destroy them, logging off is a valid option to deny you kills and make you go away you end your post with another vague threat of unsubs, which is typical eve-o garbage which has never worked so I'm not sure why you bothered
ok first how long have you lived in wh space for and what class?.
Yes some of it is assumptions although alot of it is based of facts that happen now. So I'm very confident in them.
The bit about refitting is a fair comment and I will answer in a bit more depth. a few corps do go all in bhaals deep. now when this happens its normally in someones home system where you can be facing a huge cap disadvantage. being able to refit is key to being able to take these fights. the simple fact is without this people wont atempt them or at the very least will be way less likely. its not a case of "our right" its a case of hey we have a chance and hey we dont have a chance so wont risk it. which means less pvp.
the bit about proposed solution I find a bit harsh as numbers and stuff could be changed but if say you woudl be 30km from the wh. then this might lead to kiting fleets going for it. yeah it might not be used but it gives people the option. again its worth saying distances and stuff liek taht woudl need to be looked at so saying its bs without knowing any of these is a bit off.
as for people doing nothing and that not being a danger , it is iff people arent doing anything they arent risking anything and that defeats the whole point of this change.
Yes logging off and doing nothing is totally valid and denying me kills is fine but its defeating the point of this change, if people arent prepared to roll the wh cos its to risky why even change it. Having it so you can jump back attually gives smaller groups a chance to fight bigger groups by slamming the door in there face and limiting numbers to a level they can fight.
I didnt mention anything about unsubbing at all. I said people are leaving wh space several corps have already done this. one is also looking at leaving or merging.
but if you could please let me know the stuff about what wh's you have lived in and for how long. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
|
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
606
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 22:26:00 -
[1381] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Rroff wrote: Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol
point me at 'em when they come up and i'll strike them down just like I did here
Going to assume you haven't lived in wh space at this point So to plagiarize and this isn't a direct attack at you.
Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head.
I'll leave you now to go and strike them down in the comments on http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-unknown-virgins
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1107
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 22:28:00 -
[1382] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:corbexx wrote:Go on i'll bite cos i'm bored Promiscuous Female wrote: I did -- none of it actually proved that I don't know what I'm talking about
Ok so you have read my post whats wrong with it or what don't you agree with, or do you agree with it? your lengthy post, in general, has a fair assessment of how player behavior might change when the change goes through however you are making a lot of assumptions on how people will react to things and I don't really agree with all of them but my opinions on how players will handle the change are similarly up in the air so I can't really concede or disagree meaningfully there my main problem is that you're falling into the trap where refitting is some sacred cow that you are entitled to have -- it's difficult for me to sympathize with this (and, in fact, I would prefer that refitting be completely disallowed inside of the 15 minute aggression timer) your proposed solution for controlling how far you appear from other people is basically garbage since no one in their right mind would jump through a wormhole at anything but the minimum required to land in refit, it's too optimizable and doesn't actually change anything you're also warning of the dangers of people choosing to do nothing, which isn't really a danger people are not required to prostate themselves towards your guns and allow you to destroy them, logging off is a valid option to deny you kills and make you go away you end your post with another vague threat of unsubs, which is typical eve-o garbage which has never worked so I'm not sure why you bothered
Hang on? Did a goon just criticise the wormhole CSM's knowledge and experience? Did she really say his idea was Basically garbage?
Wow.
Who knew, they were so knowledgable, they must have been planning the invasion for years.
*shaking head*
Hey, this guy represents us, has listened, has years of wormhole experience. He is respected by us all. He knows our mood, and he knows his stuff. Maybe you should listen a little and be grateful he took the time to explain things to you. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
609
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 22:32:00 -
[1383] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Hang on? Did a goon just criticise the wormhole CSM's knowledge and experience? Did she really say his idea was Basically garbage? Wow. Who knew, they were so knowledgable, they must have been planning the invasion for years.
I'm fine with people doing that as long as they can back it up and happy with me returning the favour. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Alundil
Isogen 5
649
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 22:35:00 -
[1384] - Quote
corbexx wrote:right haven't posted in here in a while, but since i'm ill and in a bit of a mood I thought what better time than now to post.
So first this is going to effect ******* everyone. Second one of the key features I feel the devs are missing is that doing nothing is a choice.
ooh it will make it risker for people they have to roll if they want to farm so thats content.
Wrong. If its a big group on the other side they will exercise there choice to do nothing and just log. This happens already, we connect to a farming group who is likely to run sites, we wait they log on scan, see a wh jump in, ooh its noho. No pve today log off guys. If it happens now it will sure as hell happen after.
If your a big group who likes to rage roll it propably wont affect you as much except for a few things.
Its going to take longer, you can mitigate this a bit with a nano carrier but this still has issues. What if you like to roll the static of your static so you can fight other people. We often roll for a c6 -c5 so we can roll the c5 to fight different people for this you need a combat carrier so rolling that will take even longer.
Now on to "it will take longer" This change is ment to make it riskier. But you know what. for farming it will be safer. Yeah god damn safer, for escalation you only have so many sites so you are only in space for so long and at risk for so long. With it taking longer to roll you have less chances of catching people doing sites.
Ohh you can roll with bs's etc yeah ok. so lets look at this.The max distance for bs is 8.8km so while alot quicker than a carrier will still be longer than what it is now. You will also need twice the amount of people to do this so will be harder for the smaller groups. And last but not least with out a god damn ******* orca you risk needing to use a closing hic which will add even more ******* time on to rolling. So keep that in mind before saying ooh bs is quicker. If you want to do it with a orca then your only slightly faster than using a cap. and you have the down side of needing twice the people.
Your moving from a area of known stuff to luck. While i know some people want there to be more unknown stuff (which I don't mind) moving to any luck based system is terrible.Having ships spawn in random directions is bad. will my ships bein refit or wont they. Now if and i say you had control over this I wouldnt mind so much for example. If the direction you were in when jumping through the wormhole effected where you came out I wouldnt mined. Along with the speed you were doing (maybe have it based on a % of your max speed) affected how far from the wormhole you appeared. This woudl be fine it would give you options and choices to use to tactical advantage. As it is its random bs luck.
If it affects the bigger groups you can bet your arse its going to affect the smaller groups way more, and you'd be right. rolling c2 to c4 will be even more of a pain. you could do it a bit safer with battleships and not orcas but its still going to add alot more time on to you. smaller groups also don't have the luxury of having a nice big support fleet, to protect them.
You combine this with the fact that income in the lower class wh's isn't that good and you can make more in hisec doing incursions.
TLDR Its still a pants on head idea and terrible.
I know a fair few groups who have moved out or moving and I'll be straight up and honest this change worries the **** out of me. I have purposely ignored this thread for a week or two in the hopes than an absence (or cooling down period) would help see things in a different light.
Then I come back to it and find myself in the midst of a bunch of people arguing endlessly about "this, no that, your risk adverse" and other nonsense with terrible spelling, even worse grammar and absolutely atrocious logic I come to this thread.
Thank you corbexx for writing this magnificent post and saving me the time and effort of doing so myself (because I'll be needing that time to roll for more content).
This - so much this.
I'm right behind you |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1107
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 22:39:00 -
[1385] - Quote
corbexx wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Hang on? Did a goon just criticise the wormhole CSM's knowledge and experience? Did she really say his idea was Basically garbage? Wow. Who knew, they were so knowledgable, they must have been planning the invasion for years. I'm fine with people doing that as long as they can back it up and happy with me returning the favour.
I am truly impressed with your patience, If I was on the CSM I am afraid, That I would be diplomatic up to a point and then suddenly people would be running for cover.
However things work out, thank you for all your efforts, and good luck where you can get them to see the light. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 22:58:00 -
[1386] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Rroff wrote: Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol
point me at 'em when they come up and i'll strike them down just like I did here Going to assume you haven't lived in wh space at this point So to plagiarize and this isn't a direct attack at you. Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. I'll leave you now to go and strike them down in the comments on http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-unknown-virgins sorry about that, had to go to a meeting
the mittani is wrong and that article is hot buttered sewage because he's falling into the same trap that you guys are -- your alliance does not indicate your ability to speak about a subject
though if you must know
I spent about a year in a C5 with a C5 static
this is completely irrelevant to anything we've talked about, however and you and everyone else continue to lean on this "you must live in wormholes to be able to speak about them" crutch because you have no capacity for making a rational argument
how is ccp supposed to see your side when all you can say is "you haven't lived it, you have no say in the matter" |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:03:00 -
[1387] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:corbexx wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Hang on? Did a goon just criticise the wormhole CSM's knowledge and experience? Did she really say his idea was Basically garbage? Wow. Who knew, they were so knowledgable, they must have been planning the invasion for years. I'm fine with people doing that as long as they can back it up and happy with me returning the favour. I am truly impressed with your patience, If I was on the CSM I am afraid, That I would be diplomatic up to a point and then suddenly people would be running for cover. However things work out, thank you for all your efforts, and good luck where you can get them to see the light. I'd not wanted to get involved in yet another troll session, but the Goonswarm individual's take on a wormhole doesn't seem to have any bearing in what the disconnect of living without a safety net does to us..
Imagining what it's like to live in a wormhole is nothing like the isolation, the unknown dangers, and the sheer lack of anchor-points that no local, no gates, and no stations does to your perception of space inside a wormhole. We do things to improve this, but in the end the perception of where you are and where "safety" lies is completely different than in any area of K-space I've been to.
There is no fast way to get help, no backup unless your friends are already in there with you and a phone call away, and no way out unless you probe it down, and then you know someone may already be there, waiting, ready to jump you. Or it could just be a completely empty system with a dead stick at planet IV, moon 2. Well, and 17 sigs and another 38 anomalies, but who's counting? |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
615
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:07:00 -
[1388] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:corbexx wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:Rroff wrote: Can you imagine all the "but your not a member of a nullsec corp/alliance so what would you know" put downs? lol
point me at 'em when they come up and i'll strike them down just like I did here Going to assume you haven't lived in wh space at this point So to plagiarize and this isn't a direct attack at you. Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. I'll leave you now to go and strike them down in the comments on http://themittani.com/content/traffic-control-unknown-virgins sorry about that, had to go to a meeting the mittani is wrong and that article is hot buttered sewage because he's falling into the same trap that you guys are -- your alliance does not indicate your ability to speak about a subject though if you must know I spent about a year in a C5 with a C5 static this is completely irrelevant to anything we've talked about, however and you and everyone else continue to lean on this "you must live in wormholes to be able to speak about them" crutch because you have no capacity for making a rational argument how is ccp supposed to see your side when all you can say is "you haven't lived it, you have no say in the matter"
ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:10:00 -
[1389] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:I'd not wanted to get involved in yet another troll session, but the Goonswarm individual's take on a wormhole doesn't seem to have any bearing in what the disconnect of living without a safety net does to us..
Imagining what it's like to live in a wormhole is nothing like the isolation, the unknown dangers, and the sheer lack of anchor-points that no local, no gates, and no stations does to your perception of space inside a wormhole. We do things to improve this, but in the end the perception of where you are and where "safety" lies is completely different than in any area of K-space I've been to.
There is no fast way to get help, no backup unless your friends are already in there with you and a phone call away, and no way out unless you probe it down, and then you know someone may already be there, waiting, ready to jump you. Or it could just be a completely empty system with a dead stick at planet IV, moon 2. Well, and 17 sigs and another 38 anomalies, but who's counting? for someone who is trying to assert that the game experience imparts some incalculable je ne sais quoi about game mechanics you are making an awful lot of assumptions about nullsec yourself
for instance
i myself do not play in a group, despite being a member of a predominately nullsec alliance
feel free to run locators on me or anyone in my corp that is not obviously a cyno alt, you'll find that I am predominantly in lowsec
i don't have the theoretical safety net you describe because I play solo -- if I **** up, I'm dead, no one is rescuing my ass
goonswarm to me is largely a jabber channel with the odd bit of empire-related entertainment to me |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:16:00 -
[1390] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:[...]
I spent about a year in a C5 with a C5 static
this is completely irrelevant to anything we've talked about, however and you and everyone else continue to lean on this "you must live in wormholes to be able to speak about them" crutch because you have no capacity for making a rational argument
[...] By your statement here, then, I have every right to dictate what happens in Nullsec despite never having spent more than an hour there? Gonna have to save this for later, so I can use it when the Nullsec changes are live on SiSi without prior statements to anyone who lives there. Then I can toss this little gem back at you and your peers out in the donut. |
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:16:00 -
[1391] - Quote
corbexx wrote:ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge
i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"
it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize
a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:17:00 -
[1392] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:[...]
I spent about a year in a C5 with a C5 static
this is completely irrelevant to anything we've talked about, however and you and everyone else continue to lean on this "you must live in wormholes to be able to speak about them" crutch because you have no capacity for making a rational argument
[...] By your statement here, then, I have every right to dictate what happens in Nullsec despite never having spent more than an hour there? Gonna have to save this for later, so I can use it when the Nullsec changes are live on SiSi without prior statements to anyone who lives there. Then I can toss this little gem back at you and your peers out in the donut. dictate, no
comment on, yes
i am dictating nothing itt and neither are you |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:26:00 -
[1393] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: for someone who is trying to assert that the game experience imparts some incalculable je ne sais quoi about game mechanics you are making an awful lot of assumptions about nullsec yourself
for instance
i myself do not play in a group, despite being a member of a predominately nullsec alliance
feel free to run locators on me or anyone in my corp that is not obviously a cyno alt, you'll find that I am predominantly in lowsec
i don't have the theoretical safety net you describe because I play solo -- if I **** up, I'm dead, no one is rescuing my ass
goonswarm to me is largely a jabber channel with the odd bit of empire-related entertainment to me
You have a safety net in that you have NPC stations to dock in, visible gates to use as jump points, immediate access to places to buy or trade goods to replace ships or acquire skills. Solo or not, that's not what I am talking about. You can jump into highsec (assuming you didn't cook your sec status) and have all the ease and luxuries available to anyone in the game.
Just as Goonswarm is your place to chat, so Center for Advanced Studies is for me. Apparently because I spend all my time chatting in an NPC corp some folks don't think opinions about things I've done matter. Well, now I have someone from Goons saying not having any experience allows sweeping declarations of fact about places I've never been. Glad to know both sides of the pendulum are sharp. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
616
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:27:00 -
[1394] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:corbexx wrote:ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for" it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out
I'd stop right here, please your making yourself look bad now rolling with 2 dreads would just have 1 stuck on wrong side.
This really highlights my earlier point of people making comments based on facts they think they know, that are just wrong.
off to bed now, but was a fun discussion. we'll have to continue it some time in a null thread. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Alundil
Isogen 5
652
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:28:00 -
[1395] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:corbexx wrote:ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for" it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out On a 3b hole, if you jump two dreads out only one is making the return trip. 2 dreads/2jumps > 3b
You want a 'do over'?
I'm right behind you |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
616
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:31:00 -
[1396] - Quote
Alundil wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:corbexx wrote:ok so you know you dont roll wh's with 3 dreads? right cos one of the issues is you have people who say they do know stuff and comment when what they say leads towards them not knowing and making comments based on the wrong info see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for" it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out On a 3b hole, if you jump two dreads out only one is making the return trip. 2 dreads/2jumps > 3b You want a 'do over'?
3rd times a charm. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
753
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:33:00 -
[1397] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge
i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4951074#post4951074
Thats actually the 2nd time I pointed out holes in that post as well :S |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:35:00 -
[1398] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge
i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4951074#post4951074Thats actually the 2nd time I pointed out holes in that post as well :S was because you edited it in; didn't catch it the first time |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:38:00 -
[1399] - Quote
it's still curious to me though
why did you wait so long to just say the thing I got wrong
you could have saved so much time on this by just pointing it out
consider it a token lesson for next time
with 12 hours on the clock I doubt it matters much now :sun: |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1111
|
Posted - 2014.08.25 23:57:00 -
[1400] - Quote
True, and if past experience is anything to go by, we are expected to grab our own ankles, and when the cactus is inserted say "thank you Sir, May I have another"
Some one is going to be very disappointed with the reaction.
Sorry sunshine, you can stick that where the sun don't shine, and I am not standing still for it. Others will take their own actions. Make of that what you will.
Judge not a man by his words but by his actions, downtime tomorrow, and all illusions are retained or shattered, and what is seen cannot be unseen.
Fozzie, you cannot sweet-talk yourself out of this one.
You will forever be branded and judged by how this plays out tomorrow. You cannot roll this back later , and expect us to forget. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 00:37:00 -
[1401] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible. troll ^^^ since we know it will take months at best before you do squat about it and i personally have decided not to bother dealing with the mass spew and due to your treatment of somerblink and others in the 5 years ive been playing ive decided enough is enough. I love the game but im tired of how ccp treats their customers. I've been tossing around writing my own game for several years now, maybe it's time i actually did it. Good luck to the rest of you, the players who make this game great. Was great fun flying with you...well most of you :)
and no you can't have my stuff |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 01:07:00 -
[1402] - Quote
corbexx wrote:
Yes logging off and doing nothing is totally valid and denying me kills is fine but its defeating the point of this change, if people arent prepared to roll the wh cos its to risky why even change it. Having it so you can jump back attually gives smaller groups a chance to fight bigger groups by slamming the door in there face and limiting numbers to a level they can fight.
I didnt mention anything about unsubbing at all. I said people are leaving wh space several corps have already done this. one is also looking at leaving or merging.
but if you could please let me know the stuff about what wh's you have lived in and for how long.
people logging off is an EXTREME problem because if they arent having fun playing eve then they will stop playing it and eve is the worse for it. |
Slicr
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 01:14:00 -
[1403] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey guys. I wanted to post again to make sure it's clear that we are not ignoring this thread and that we will be continuing to keep a close eye on your feedback and on changes in player behavior.
I completely understand that some of you are feeling anger over the fact that we disagree about how this change will play out. We wish we could please everyone at all times but unfortunately that isn't always possible.
Poor idea. In a few years you will revisit it and say the same things you said about the previous changes and why they were implemented Or maybe sooner if someone else takes over your role.. I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.
|
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
619
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 01:56:00 -
[1404] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:it's still curious to me though
why did you wait so long to just say the thing I got wrong
you could have saved so much time on this by just pointing it out
consider it a token lesson for next time
with 12 hours on the clock I doubt it matters much now :sun:
Tbh I just wanted to post my main post but then I after the discussion, I went back to check some of your stuff. Frankly I couldn't careless about where you live in game or what you do. Your right, you are free to comment on stuff, that's fine. But the issue is you come on here you post all this stuff about what you think of the change, when you don't even understand the very basics of the change. Closing a c5 to c5 is literally one of the easiest wormholes in game to close. Now if you don't understand the very basic stuff and get that wrong how are any of us meant to take the rest of what you say seriously. How can you comment on the more complex things of how this will effect people when you don't know the basics?
This isn't even that much a issue, its just you posting on these forums and most the wormhole people will know its rubbish. what's much more of a issue is when you get so called wormhole "experts" on certain podcasts talking about this stuff and getting the basics wrong, like saying "ooh 2 dreads and a orca to roll a c5 c5" or "yeah with the change you'll be spawning 20 to 50km" thats much more of a issue cos there listeners just assume there correct when in fact its total ballshit. That leads to people making decisions based on stuff that's just not correct. Your much better posting from a educated position. Its one of the reasons i get so pissed off when people mention isk in wh space when they are literally pulling numbers out there arse with no facts or anything to back it up. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
619
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 02:05:00 -
[1405] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:corbexx wrote:
Yes logging off and doing nothing is totally valid and denying me kills is fine but its defeating the point of this change, if people arent prepared to roll the wh cos its to risky why even change it. Having it so you can jump back attually gives smaller groups a chance to fight bigger groups by slamming the door in there face and limiting numbers to a level they can fight.
I didnt mention anything about unsubbing at all. I said people are leaving wh space several corps have already done this. one is also looking at leaving or merging.
but if you could please let me know the stuff about what wh's you have lived in and for how long.
people logging off is an EXTREME problem because if they arent having fun playing eve then they will stop playing it and eve is the worse for it.
Aye this is a cocern I actually had skype convo about this the other day. It was a smallish group who live in a c5. At the moment they have the chance to slam the wh shut in some ones face and take a fight on there terms or atleast close it so they can carry on doing what ever. But now if a big group connects they basically cant do anything till the bigger group closes it moves out of there tz. meaning they could well have a whole evening where they just have no chance to do anything. Its worth remembering people are normally more than happy to try something if they have a semi reasonable chance of it working but when you have literally no chance people wont attempt it.
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Slicr
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 02:25:00 -
[1406] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:it's still curious to me though
why did you wait so long to just say the thing I got wrong
you could have saved so much time on this by just pointing it out
consider it a token lesson for next time
with 12 hours on the clock I doubt it matters much now :sun: Tbh I just wanted to post my main post but then I after the discussion, I went back to check some of your stuff. Frankly I couldn't careless about where you live in game or what you do. Your right, you are free to comment on stuff, that's fine. But the issue is you come on here you post all this stuff about what you think of the change, when you don't even understand the very basics of the change. Closing a c5 to c5 is literally one of the easiest wormholes in game to close. Now if you don't understand the very basic stuff and get that wrong how are any of us meant to take the rest of what you say seriously. How can you comment on the more complex things of how this will effect people when you don't know the basics? This isn't even that much a issue, its just you posting on these forums and most the wormhole people will know its rubbish. what's much more of a issue is when you get so called wormhole "experts" on certain podcasts talking about this stuff and getting the basics wrong, like saying "ooh 2 dreads and a orca to roll a c5 c5" or "yeah with the change you'll be spawning 20 to 50km" thats much more of a issue cos there listeners just assume there correct when in fact its total ballshit. That leads to people making decisions based on stuff that's just not correct. Your much better posting from a educated position. Its one of the reasons i get so pissed off when people mention isk in wh space when they are literally pulling numbers out there arse with no facts or anything to back it up.
Isn't everything posted on the internet true?
Quick grand-standing. Those of us who actual care about Wormholes pretty much know what is going on. Turn in your soap-box!
I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 02:49:00 -
[1407] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:it's still curious to me though
why did you wait so long to just say the thing I got wrong
you could have saved so much time on this by just pointing it out
consider it a token lesson for next time
with 12 hours on the clock I doubt it matters much now :sun: Tbh I just wanted to post my main post but then I after the discussion, I went back to check some of your stuff. Frankly I couldn't careless about where you live in game or what you do. Your right, you are free to comment on stuff, that's fine. But the issue is you come on here you post all this stuff about what you think of the change, when you don't even understand the very basics of the change. Closing a c5 to c5 is literally one of the easiest wormholes in game to close. Now if you don't understand the very basic stuff and get that wrong how are any of us meant to take the rest of what you say seriously. How can you comment on the more complex things of how this will effect people when you don't know the basics? This isn't even that much a issue, its just you posting on these forums and most the wormhole people will know its rubbish. what's much more of a issue is when you get so called wormhole "experts" on certain podcasts talking about this stuff and getting the basics wrong, like saying "ooh 2 dreads and a orca to roll a c5 c5" or "yeah with the change you'll be spawning 20 to 50km" thats much more of a issue cos there listeners just assume there correct when in fact its total ballshit. That leads to people making decisions based on stuff that's just not correct. Your much better posting from a educated position. Its one of the reasons i get so pissed off when people mention isk in wh space when they are literally pulling numbers out there arse with no facts or anything to back it up. yeah I wasn't indicting you specifically, you were the one poster who actually was able to nut up and call me out despite my mistake happening many pages ago
was just marveling at how poorly the rest of you all are fighting for your lives here |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 03:08:00 -
[1408] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: yeah I wasn't indicting you specifically, you were the one poster who actually was able to nut up and call me out despite my mistake happening many pages ago
was just marveling at how poorly the rest of you all are fighting for your lives here
actually the rest of us are just marveling at how incompetent you are. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
432
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 03:18:00 -
[1409] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: yeah I wasn't indicting you specifically, you were the one poster who actually was able to nut up and call me out despite my mistake happening many pages ago
was just marveling at how poorly the rest of you all are fighting for your lives here
actually the rest of us are just marveling at how incompetent you are. oh please
I didn't make my mistake for several pages and there you all were reciting your "wormhole players are the only people authorized to make changes" creed way before I even allowed myself the rope to make a mistake |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
11332
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 03:52:00 -
[1410] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means
why is this so difficult to do
Maybe because this is not a "101- help the newbie" thread. These guys don't need to explain what is obvious for everyone living in w-space. Really? That's funny, because "these guys" have been accusing CCP of having no experience with w-space. I should think that it'd be apparently at this point that you do need to explain these things, regardless of how obvious they seem to you. That seems to be your best hope at convincing them why you feel this is a bad change. Enjoying the rain today? ;) |
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 03:54:00 -
[1411] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: yeah I wasn't indicting you specifically, you were the one poster who actually was able to nut up and call me out despite my mistake happening many pages ago
was just marveling at how poorly the rest of you all are fighting for your lives here
actually the rest of us are just marveling at how incompetent you are. oh please I didn't make my mistake for several pages and there you all were reciting your "wormhole players are the only people authorized to make changes" creed way before I even allowed myself the rope to make a mistake why are you still pretending like you allowed yourself anything? you have obv never lived in wh space because the 3 cap thing is something NOONE who has lived in a c5/c5 as you claimed would ever make...even on a bad day...cause knowing mass limits is literally that important. You opened your mouth, spoke bullshit, got called on it, spoke more bullshit, got proven you are one more troll in the world. The only allowing that MIGHT have occured is you allowing yourself to troll instead of taking game mechanic changes serious since those mechanics are going to determine how a significant portion of the game works. There is a time for fun and games and there is a time to be serious, patches are def part of the time to be serious. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 03:58:00 -
[1412] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means
why is this so difficult to do
Maybe because this is not a "101- help the newbie" thread. These guys don't need to explain what is obvious for everyone living in w-space. Really? That's funny, because "these guys" have been accusing CCP of having no experience with w-space. I should think that it'd be apparently at this point that you do need to explain these things, regardless of how obvious they seem to you. That seems to be your best hope at convincing them why you feel this is a bad change. the past 100+ pages devoted to this have had "101 wh stuffs" over and over and over and over and...ya also one of the biggest reasons for the csm is so ccp can speak to the actual experts and csm corbexx has done his job, it's ccp fozzie that hasnt by not listening to him nor the rest of us. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
433
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 04:05:00 -
[1413] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote: you people keep saying that but are unable to come up with one example of what this means
why is this so difficult to do
Maybe because this is not a "101- help the newbie" thread. These guys don't need to explain what is obvious for everyone living in w-space. Really? That's funny, because "these guys" have been accusing CCP of having no experience with w-space. I should think that it'd be apparently at this point that you do need to explain these things, regardless of how obvious they seem to you. That seems to be your best hope at convincing them why you feel this is a bad change. the past 100+ pages devoted to this have had "101 wh stuffs" over and over and over and over and...ya also one of the biggest reasons for the csm is so ccp can speak to the actual experts and csm corbexx has done his job, it's ccp fozzie that hasnt by not listening to him nor the rest of us. and yet it took you 9 pages to point out my mistake
it's almost like the entire wormhole community is shockingly bad at communication |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 04:18:00 -
[1414] - Quote
with all the trolls i guess this is why customer service is so ****** from game companies |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
433
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 04:22:00 -
[1415] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:with all the trolls i guess this is why customer service is so ****** from game companies what do you care, you said yourself you were leaving either the game or wormhole space, I forget which |
LT Alter
Ouroboros Research and Development
132
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 04:33:00 -
[1416] - Quote
I wish people would focus more on the purpose of this thread and go about trying to change fozzies position on this change (Fruitless as it may seem) rather than get into endless flame wars with each other that achieves no goal other than clogging up the thread from the meaningful posts that might actually spark the lightbulb in some CCP Dev's mind so they realize this change is horrible in it's current state. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
38
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 05:47:00 -
[1417] - Quote
corbexx wrote: The bit about refitting is a fair comment and I will answer in a bit more depth. a few corps do go all in bhaals deep. now when this happens its normally in someones home system where you can be facing a huge cap disadvantage. being able to refit is key to being able to take these fights. the simple fact is without this people wont atempt them or at the very least will be way less likely. its not a case of "our right" its a case of hey we have a chance and hey we dont have a chance so wont risk it. which means less pvp.
I've made general comments to this effect in prior pages but I appreciate you illuminating some of the finer points at stake here. I'll lay this out clearly for the k-space visitors. You have, lets say, a ~3 bil mass WH connecting two C5/6 entities. So if you're going on offense that's only 3 caps, and they will collapse the hole. There won't be anymore reinforcements after that unless you've been seeding caps, which can take days or weeks depending on how hard you try.
The defenders can have many more caps and they normally do. So there already aren't many entities that will go "all in" for a fight barring special circumstances. So its already disadvantageous to go on the offensive in the vast majority of cases. "Mass spew" makes the imbalance worse because on top of being at a cap disadvantage, you can no longer dictate range to your support. Whereas your opponent can form up any way they want to maximize their tactical options. This change was at one point so bad that you could spawn literally out of rep range. As it is its now only out of refit range but its still ridiculous to make going on the offensive even more disadvantageous.
If you choose only a limited engagement with sub-caps and send only a triage cap through for support, the triage cap could spawn ~14 km away from jump range and safety. The defenders will have bump stabbers/machariels/phoons on grid almost for sure + webs. Or they could warp a cap to 0 on a fleeted frig sitting on the triage cap and bump it ******* far from the hole and it is ******* dead.
So your triage cap dies randomly because of this stupid mechanic overlaying the old mechanics. But actually it won't because as corby has correctly mentioned, you can simply not jump caps through. But if you're not jumping caps through its suicide to send anything else, and you're left with a Mexican standoff on either side of the hole. Its great content trust me, right up there with station camping afk dudes.
Theorycrafting at this point yes and there will be exceptional cases, but eve is an old game... most folks who've played awhile with the existing mechanics can say with pretty good accuracy that if X change is implented then most players in most cases will respond with Y and Z etc.
What makes this change so bad is the strong likelihood of even more blueballing than there is now, with even more players choosing not to fight because they don't want the mechanics to **** them over. It makes finding the ever illusive "fair/close fight" that much harder to find, cuz straight up, there will be less fights period. More ganks, to be sure, but less "good" fights.
corbexx wrote: as for people doing nothing and that not being a danger , it is iff people arent doing anything they arent risking anything and that defeats the whole point of this change.
Yes logging off and doing nothing is totally valid and denying me kills is fine but its defeating the point of this change, if people arent prepared to roll the wh cos its to risky why even change it. Having it so you can jump back attually gives smaller groups a chance to fight bigger groups by slamming the door in there face and limiting numbers to a level they can fight.
I've harped on this problem several times as well in that small groups are going to lose hole control because of "mass spew". It doesn't matter if the rolling ships "could possibly" be lost because they spawn too far from the hole. The worst case will be assumed and treated as if it will always happen, like stargates, because the most efficient combat rolling ships are simply too expensive for small groups to just throw away to randomness.
"Mass spew" has serious implications for big groups vs. small groups. Small groups are just going to get flat out ganked more because they're losing hole control with this change.
corbexx wrote: I didnt mention anything about unsubbing at all. I said people are leaving wh space several corps have already done this. one is also looking at leaving or merging.
Yeah this is a typical response to a more open battlefield where the bigger blob that cannot be split so easily any longer is going to come out on top a la nullsec. I expect more of this, unfortunately. Nobody wants to be on the losing side of ganks. Taken to the extreme, blob building because of this change is analogous to the blue doughnut coming to w-space. It won't get that far but things are headed in that direction, the wrong direction. Nobody wants any of this even if they don't realize it already themselves.
I think CCP just needs to acknowledge that they've left w-space alone for too long and they no longer truly understand it as they once did. Similar to the POS code. I could understand that and overlook a rollback on this change.
I would encourage an about-face to make hole rolling easier in lower class wormholes and upping the mass capacity on the random holes connecting C5/6 and C5/6 with null/low to allow more caps through for a fight (won't affect rage rolling statics).
I would also like to see an auto-spawned static or random hole keeping every w-space system connected to somewhere in New Eden and completely eliminate crashing all the holes to farm in safety. But in any case roll back "mass spew". Its already DOA.
|
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
111
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 09:06:00 -
[1418] - Quote
I was the WH roundtable on Fanfest. Twostep raised his hand for the first question. With a curious smile, almost like a child who is so excited about the game he loves so much (and I feel/felt the same way about Eve) he said: 'when do we get new stuff?'
I cant speak for Twostep (and I apologize if I understand you wrong, mate), but Im pretty sure with 'new stuff' he meant CONTENT, as in, working POSes, working corp mechanics, new stuff to toy around with, maybe new kinds of sleepers, new sites, I dont know.. something that would WH space exiting again, dedicated PVP WH systems where people would want to go out and WILLINGLY fight, something new to discover.
Again, apologies if I got you wrong, Twostep, but Im pretty sure he did not mean to ask for a change to WH mechanics like this. Nobdy wants that, well, there are always a few, most unimportantly some random troll who managed to get this thread derailed in the last few pages.
Fozzie, I know you wont reply to this post, but I would really like to know why this change was not brought up at Fanfest, where you had the opportunity to get feedback from some VERY knowledgeable people actually playing in WH space. Also, why do you completely ignore Corbex's arguments, as an elected representative of the WH community? At least comment on them properly?
We as players cant know as much as Devs know. You insist on these changes, thats your right, but if you guys had learned one thing from the past disasters such as Incarna, you should at least know that it would be advisable for you to at least EXPLAIN your reasoning, so we can make any sense of it.
Because, right now, this change comes across as some random brainfart that you apparently had in the time after fanfest, and now despite all the WH player resistance in your 'feedback' thread (LOL) is not taken back simply because you dont want to admit a mistake.
Fanfest was fun and all, but I know for sure I wont go again, whats the point anyway when our opinion gets ignored even without explanation.
Thats just condescending.
Bye, Im done with this thread and already unsubscribed, not on my NS main, but my WH alt. And no, you cant have my stuff, Bob will get it. |
Winthorp
2639
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 09:32:00 -
[1419] - Quote
Enthropic wrote: Also, why do you completely ignore Corbex's arguments, as an elected representative of the WH community? At least comment on them properly?
They would have clearly discussed this at length in private and i am sure Corbexx has had a lot of time and effort putting the views forward to CCP Fozzie and other CSM's that we will never know about. |
Vladzek
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 09:42:00 -
[1420] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote: see, was that so hard? it only took four pages for one of you to finally find a hole in my knowledge
i swear i give you all the perfect amount of rope to hang me and you sit around going "huh what's the rope for"
it was a fat finger unfortunately, and for that I do apologize
a C5 hole typically has a maximum mass of 3b and a dread has 1.2-1.3 or so, you'd want to roll with 2 to avoid locking someone out
Because your posts show that you are already hanging from the tree branch, swinging in the wind. Why should we need to point that out for you? |
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 10:03:00 -
[1421] - Quote
After thinking a bit more about it, I think this change is intentionally made to effectively kill rage-rolling. Sure, many people will still do it, but less often, and not so long because it's more tedious, and a lot of people will probably completely give up on it.
So, assuming this is correct, why do they do it? My guess: To break up the big groups in w-space (those with ~30+ players). Which, incidentally, are the groups who provide 90% of the complaints here.
The bigger groups are those who do almost all of the rage-rolling. What if this activity becomes unfeasible? There will be a chronic lack of content for those 30 or 50 or 100 people crammed into the same hole. They will get terribly, terribly bored.
What happens then? Corps will break apart, shrink, failscade because of inner tensions (that is, even more than normal).
But is that bad? People have to go somewhere. Sure, some will quit. But not so many, and only those who had become too inert and crusty anyway to do anything new. That type of player who still logs in for a pvp ping but logs shortly after the fight and hasn't scanned a single wormhole himself in over a year. Every old wh corp is full of them.
No, most players will move somewhere else in EVE. Those for whom it was all about being part of an impressive, famous big group will go (back) to Null. But many who are really into w-space will regroup in smaller entities. And because so many people do that GÇô are forced to do it GÇô it might once again be possible to find true small-gang pvp in our space. More, smaller groups scattered around means also less need for rage-rolling to get content.
Well, at least that is how I make sense of it. And I think it might well work out.
Next on the designer's list: Make escalation farming with maximum-efficient skeleton crews unfeasible (e.g. add more work so using alts does not work so well) and limit/eliminate site regeneration to disrupt isk generation for big groups. If rage-rolling for pvp content becomes too tedious, and rolling for new pve sites too, and income from a single system supports only a few players, then the big groups are starved to death and will break up into smaller groups, thus finally reversing the long-time trend that has been choking w-space to a slow death. . |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
624
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 10:48:00 -
[1422] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:This and the other changes look great to me and have in fact made me re-subcribe, even though I may not actually have much time to play for RL reasons.
This change in particular seems to be the change to kick farmers out of w-space. Closing of holes just to be safe is more work now and involves a little risk. Lazy farmers will either give up and leave or just leave their holes open and hope for the best.
Ragerolling shouldn't be too badly affected because the groups doing it can easily field caps + webbers to make a short warp and then warp back to the hole GÇô of course also adding some risk in the process which is good. And larger standoffs at holes should be less boring now, things might actually happen.
You do realise farmers will attually be safer with this change? longer to rage roll means less chance of finding them and ganking them. If its not safe for them to close there wh they just wont do it. that happens now already, has been happening for well over a year if they haven't left now I doubt this will change it.
as for the short warp and bounce back. Have you anynumbers on exact time for this, video showing just how long it takes woudl be really handy. as I still think just slow boating back will be quicker and certainly safer.
stand offs on the wormhole will be exactly the same or infact even more boring as bigger groups like the one i am in are alot less likely to go bhaals deep in to another wh. whats much more likely to happen is there will be a stand off and nothing happens for 5 miins then diplos will chat and the wh will be rolled safely so both sides can get on with doing **** thats more fun that staring at each other through a wh Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
624
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 10:52:00 -
[1423] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:This change in particular seems to be the change to kick farmers out of w-space.
Terrorfrodo wrote: I think this change is intentionally made to effectively kill rage-rolling.
Hell you know what you might be right here with a few more "I think" you could cover most things and then just say "I think this is designed to kill off wormholes" Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 10:58:00 -
[1424] - Quote
Yeah, I more or less reconsidered on what you quoted there, see my newer post above yours. The impact on rage-rolling and the people who do that as their primary activity is probably greater than I initially thought.
But as I also said, rage-rolling is terrible and in any case something 3-5 people actively do while the rest are either just bored or happy to let their buddies work while they're just waiting to get content spoon-fed to them.
We had this for a couple years, it was sometimes fun, but let's move on and leave it behind now. I'm honestly surprised that so many people shed tears for rage-rolling, something I was sure nobody really enjoys. I guess people are mostly afraid that there will be nothing else to do, but as I pointed out, maybe there will be. . |
Zara Arran
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:02:00 -
[1425] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:I was the WH roundtable on Fanfest. I cant speak for Twostep (and I apologize if I understand you wrong, mate), but Im pretty sure with 'new stuff' he meant CONTENT, as in, working POSes, working corp mechanics, new stuff to toy around with, maybe new kinds of sleepers, new sites, I dont know.. something that would WH space exiting again, dedicated PVP WH systems where people would want to go out and WILLINGLY fight, something new to discover.
Personally, I don't think fixing POSes and making corp or even alliance roles work better is not new content. Its fixing stuff or making them less tideous. don't get me wrong, it is a good thing and really needs to happen... New content imho was when they brought out wormholes, the introduction of bounty-system, etc. But I do agree that I would love to see some new stuff.
Winthorp wrote:They would have clearly discussed this at length in private and i am sure Corbexx has had a lot of time and effort putting the views forward to CCP Fozzie and other CSM's that we will never know about. Although I do believe you are right, that Corbexx does all he can to show CCP the impact and implications of certain changes. This does not mean that CCP always listens and copies the CSMs beliefs. Why not? All CSM reps play the game, are part of a group and possibily care more about their groups interest or just don't see the flip side for other type of groups. I think Corbexx tries to represent the entire W-space community, from low to high class wormholers, but this is hard for CCP to judge. Especially because the former CSM rep actually suggested this change as a good idea in the "WH little things"-thread and mybe even during his CSM time... and now apparently a large percentage of W-space is against?! This must be confusing for CCP... also, this is why choosing the correct CSM rep is important: someone with knowledge, with experience, with the time and willingness, someone who is able to look past their own group's needs and view what is best for the game.
TL;DR: eventhough Corbexx represents our views (imo fairly) to CCP in a more direct line of communication, we still should post our views independently. This gives Corbexx the means and backup to show he is not alone in this.... |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:05:00 -
[1426] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Yeah, I more or less reconsidered on what you quoted there, see my newer post above yours. The impact on rage-rolling and the people who do that as their primary activity is probably greater than I initially thought.
But as I also said, rage-rolling is terrible and in any case something 3-5 people actively do while the rest are either just bored or happy to let their buddies work while they're just waiting to get content spoon-fed to them.
We had this for a couple years, it was sometimes fun, but let's move on and leave it behind now. I'm honestly surprised that so many people shed tears for rage-rolling, something I was sure nobody really enjoys. I guess people are mostly afraid that there w/ill be nothing else to do, but as I pointed out, maybe there will be.
Take this gun,
^=====' ||z
And shoot yourself.
We dislike ragerolling but it is a necessity to find new chains and as anyone will agree when scanning chains pretty often you will find dead chains with no k space and no targets. When this is the case you roll the whole, this is already a boring task and now ccp is making it even more tedious and difficult for everyone smaller entities more specifically.
If you don't understand this simple ******* concept then what ever but the majority of wormhole space does and they also understand why this is such an unnecessary change.
There are so many ways ccp could of gone about changing combat rolling that did not give the side affect of making rage rolling or just normal rolling an added chore.
This is a completely unnecessary change and no matter what everyone in the wh community has said ccp still thinks it is a great idea. Fozzie likes to talk about how he is listening to us but that is flat out bullshit because he openly said in the townhall that this is going to go through regardless.
All of our opinions mean absolutely nout.
So honestly as someone who has lived in wormholes for years pretty much all for pvp related reasons I can say **** this game. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:16:00 -
[1427] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote:We dislike ragerolling but it is a necessity to find new chains and as anyone will agree when scanning chains pretty often you will find dead chains with no k space and no targets.
Because everyone else does the same and almost all pvp-oriented players are concentrated in a small number of large entities. That means that there is only a relatively small number of systems with pvp-potential and, since everyone closes their chain all the time, only short time-windows to connect to one of those.
If the larger groups were broken up, and pvp-oriented players scattered over more systems, and chains stayed connected longer and with more connections in general (because of more random holes), then the need to rage-roll for finding content may simply not be there anymore.
Now you usually roll until you connect to a single other group you hope to get a fight from. Sometimes by chance a third party joins in. But that's it. You get a fight, or not, then the hole is closed and everyone starts a new chain. But what if the chains became much more interconnected because of less closing and generally more holes, and not two or three big, but instead five or seven or ten smaller groups were connected to each other and shared one complex chain for a whole day? To me that sounds like much more fun, potentially.
And further down the road, when people who are now just farmers, notice that they meet actual small gangs more often and not every proteus they see is just the bait of a 30+ army, then the pool of players who are willing to fight might even grow. (Although I'm under no illusion that w-space is full of people who will never fight, no matter what.)
. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
753
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:27:00 -
[1428] - Quote
As corbexx said its not just about rolling for pew, for instance one method of invading someone in a high class wh is to take control of their static during their quiet tz and roll it for capital entrances til you have your force inside, which is already a highly risky and stressful operation without this change, especially in the early stages when it can be just 2-3 people taking huge chances. Seems to me people for this change either just don't care about the people who have made w space what it is and/or have no experience of how wormhole space works in practical use and its a downhill road from here. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:37:00 -
[1429] - Quote
But do you really feel that this method of invading someone is fun? Something that should be preserved for the good of the game?
People do it because they have to and because it works, like people shoot sov strucutres in null wars because they have to GÇô but does anyone like it? EVE history tells us that players will always do what it takes, even if they curse CCP every second of it for making it so boring.
That said, certainly the imbalance of unlimited capitals for the defenders vs. unlimited tedium for the attackers needs to be addressed, with this change now even more than before. . |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1116
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:37:00 -
[1430] - Quote
I am afraid that the disconnect of CCP from the wormhole community has reached levels that would have been inconceivable previously.
According to Fozzie on the hyperion announcement we are all super excited about the great changes coming to wormhole space.
We are excited in the same way as we would be excited by finding a severed hand in our pasta.
Possibly Excited means something completely different in Iceland.
The word you are looking for is Horrified, or at the very least, disgusted. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
753
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:49:00 -
[1431] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:But do you really feel that this method of invading someone is fun? Something that should be preserved for the good of the game?
People do it because they have to and because it works, like people shoot sov strucutres in null wars because they have to GÇô but does anyone like it? EVE history tells us that players will always do what it takes, even if they curse CCP every second of it for making it so boring.
That said, certainly the imbalance of unlimited capitals for the defenders vs. unlimited tedium for the attackers needs to be addressed, with this change now even more than before.
That is a whole topic of its own, was just another instance of one of the many negative side effects of the change. |
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
176
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:49:00 -
[1432] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:I am afraid that the disconnect of CCP from the wormhole community has reached levels that would have been inconceivable previously. According to Fozzie on the hyperion announcement we are all super excited about the great changes coming to wormhole space. We are excited in the same way as we would be excited by finding a severed hand in our pasta. Possibly Excited means something completely different in Iceland. The word you are looking for is Horrified, or at the very least, disgusted.
Its 4 steps, a leap on the spot, then a supersonic rocket backwards in what this gives us wormholers.
I look forward to spending more time other stuff, Does anybody here think that Fozzie has spent an night/day after work, just rolling holes trying to find SOMETHING? twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
Glasgow Dunlop
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
176
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 11:51:00 -
[1433] - Quote
Double post twitter: @glasgowdunlop-á TDSIN Recruitment Director : Join 'TDSIN pub' Glasgow Meet Organiser
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1116
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 12:39:00 -
[1434] - Quote
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:I am afraid that the disconnect of CCP from the wormhole community has reached levels that would have been inconceivable previously. According to Fozzie on the hyperion announcement we are all super excited about the great changes coming to wormhole space. We are excited in the same way as we would be excited by finding a severed hand in our pasta. Possibly Excited means something completely different in Iceland. The word you are looking for is Horrified, or at the very least, disgusted. Its 4 steps, a leap on the spot, then a supersonic rocket backwards in what this gives us wormholers. I look forward to spending more time other stuff, Does anybody here think that Fozzie has spent an night/day after work, just rolling holes trying to find SOMETHING?
Well that's it. It went live in spite of the near total agreement that this was a destructive change, was wanted by nobody (in wormholes) and it was universally despised.
Well Fozzie, super excited, is not what we feel, nor will we just forget it and suck it up.
You have done more damage to player relations and trust than ANY with event previously. Others show you were misguided, and corrupt. that surprisingly we could live with.
This now shows that all player feedback and response is simply a smokescreen, and has no impact on your decision making process whatsoever unless you are using it to farm for new ideas.
The contempt is simply breathtaking, and THAT is the wider feeling. And that cannot be lived with.
Some may put up with it for a while, Many will not.
Enjoy your achievements, it is a pity they are Neither going to benefit the Players or CCP. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 12:50:00 -
[1435] - Quote
I'll be a couple hours before I can download the patch but I'd very much like to hear initial impressions after some of y'all have had a chance to jump through some holes and/or try to roll them or fight on them. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 12:50:00 -
[1436] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Well that's it. It went live in spite of the near total agreement that this was a destructive change, was wanted by nobody (in wormholes) and it was universally despised.
Well Fozzie, super excited, is not what we feel, nor will we just forget it and suck it up. I want it and I'm excited, and people who constantly speak of "we" when spouting their personal opinion, are pathetic :)
. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1116
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 12:51:00 -
[1437] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Well that's it. It went live in spite of the near total agreement that this was a destructive change, was wanted by nobody (in wormholes) and it was universally despised.
Well Fozzie, super excited, is not what we feel, nor will we just forget it and suck it up. I want it and I'm excited, and people who constantly speak of "we" when spouting their personal opinion, are pathetic :)
What class wormhole, corp history and experience or STFU There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
101
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 12:55:00 -
[1438] - Quote
I am exited to go back to wh space - due to this patch.
After all the dire threats, hate, scorn in this thread - all this carebear tears are welcome.
CCP lives form ppl whp pay for the game.
The game is their property.
We have no say and are here to pay - accept that or live in agony.
Better adapt and look for new opportunites - life is constant change.
No company gives a **** about customers - do not believe the adverstiment, lads. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1116
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 12:58:00 -
[1439] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:I am exited to go back to wh space - due to this patch.
After all the dire threats, hate, scorn in this thread - all this carebear tears are welcome.
CCP lives form ppl whp pay for the game.
The game is their property.
We have no say and are here to pay - accept that or live in agony.
Better adapt and look for new opportunites - life is constant change.
No company gives a **** about customers - do not believe the adverstiment, lads.
Congratulations,
Now explain in simple words how one is meant to reward a company which treats its customers with abject contempt?
And screw the idea of giving a single cent to one who does.
Is that meant to be a business plan?
Right!
By the way, crappy troll, it just gave me the opportunity to explain how I feel to the simple minded.
My choice is simple.
Do I self destruct everything, do I make the effort to move things to HS? Or do I just muddle on a little, if I can be bothered while ensuring, if plex does not cover it, that I never contribute one single penny to their profits or survival?
Well done CCP, you say the game is about choices, pity these are the ones you encourage. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:06:00 -
[1440] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Van Steiza wrote:We dislike ragerolling but it is a necessity to find new chains and as anyone will agree when scanning chains pretty often you will find dead chains with no k space and no targets. Because everyone else does the same and almost all pvp-oriented players are concentrated in a small number of large entities. That means that there is only a relatively small number of systems with pvp-potential and, since everyone closes their chain all the time, only short time-windows to connect to one of those. If the larger groups were broken up, and pvp-oriented players scattered over more systems, and chains stayed connected longer and with more connections in general (because of more random holes), then the need to rage-roll for finding content may simply not be there anymore. Now you usually roll until you connect to a single other group you hope to get a fight from. Sometimes by chance a third party joins in. But that's it. You get a fight, or not, then the hole is closed and everyone starts a new chain. But what if the chains became much more interconnected because of less closing and generally more holes, and not two or three big, but instead five or seven or ten smaller groups were connected to each other and shared one complex chain for a whole day? To me that sounds like much more fun, potentially. And further down the road, when people who are now just farmers, notice that they meet actual small gangs more often and not every proteus they see is just the bait of a 30+ army, then the pool of players who are willing to fight might even grow. (Although I'm under no illusion that w-space is full of people who will never fight, no matter what.)
Obviously you have no idea what mass is do you? Having a huge interconnected chain that has many crit holes not allowing much for any pvp lol well just lol.
Again,
Take this gun,
^=====' ||z
And shoot yourself.
Please?
|
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:09:00 -
[1441] - Quote
Right, no more troll feeding go play the game and get some hands-on feedback in here one way or the other. Even if it leaves a sour taste in your mouth at least its something new for the first time in all these years. Hands-on opinions carry more weight. |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:12:00 -
[1442] - Quote
Ya know, when I see a Lazerhawks or similar wh corp scout pop in to my hole, I run for cover. Because as a small corp, that's the smart thing to do. If I get a cross hole to scary peoples, I can have a scout, and decide if I can roll the hole closed, or at least crit.
Except now doing that will be above my corp's acceptable risk level. Previously, if we messed up, or got lazy with scouting intel, bad things happened. So we learned from those mistakes, and try real hard not to make them again.
Now we have..... uncloseable frigate holes. More random holes. (I get 2 or 3 a day on average, at least, now. How many is "more"? And closing randoms will be a pretty darn rare occurrence for us now. It was risky before. Now it's unacceptably risky.
The first thing I was taught a few years ago when introduced to wh space was " It's not IF your wh ships will get blown up, it's WHEN" Lived by those words ever since. Every once in a while, it happens. I don't take it personally, it's almost always because I messed up or was lazy. And paid for it.
Now I am glad we can fuel the tower and make a reasonable profit from pretty much nothing but PI. WH ops are going to be few and far between for us with these cumulative changes. Too many random factors. No amount of hard work and intelligent gameplay can overcome RNG.
Sorry epicurus, but if you scan through our home in the future, I'm pretty sure you will continue on, because there won't be much going on. I don't take it personally if you or someone like you catches me being dumb and blows me up for it. That's Eve.
I wonder how long the novelty of "burner missions" will keep us playing Eve. The wormhole was already risk laden, but worth it. Now? Rapidly reaching the break over point where we say "not worth it".
*apologizes for no longer providing "content" for others. Blames CCP for forcing this corp decision.
** Make cynos do exactly the same thing. They are an instantaneous transition from one part of space to another after all. Why should they not operate under the same mechanic? I'm betting people would lose their frikkin minds. Apparently WH residents aren't "people" |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
523
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:12:00 -
[1443] - Quote
And here I thought CCP couldn't be stupid enough to do this.
Screw ypi.
Wormholes are dead to me.
Genuinly pissed.
Go to hell CCP.
Edit: edited out the capslock, initial rage over, still pissed.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1117
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:13:00 -
[1444] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Right, no more troll feeding go play the game and get some hands-on feedback in here one way or the other. Even if it leaves a sour taste in your mouth at least its something new for the first time in all these years. Hands-on opinions carry more weight.
That is taking place, initial impressions are that the spawn range tends to trend towards the higher end and is not influenced in any way in terms of direction of outlet spawn. So nicely random.
Pretty much exactly as expected. And just as bad.
What silver lining are we hoping to find? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
ImNotAnAlt Lazair
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:16:00 -
[1445] - Quote
CCP is trying to get rid of small corps in wh space by the looks of it. This is great if you have a large alliance I suppose. Way to ruin it for smaller groups |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:16:00 -
[1446] - Quote
Well I am about to jump my pheonix thru a hole just to see how one of the heaviest dreads lands in terms of range away from the hole.
I will let you know shortly.
Reason I am using the phoenix btw is because a single phoenix and orca is enough to collapse a 3b hole and this is what I normally would use pre patch. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1121
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:17:00 -
[1447] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:And here I thought CCP couldn't be stupid enough to do this.
Screw you.
Wormholes are dead to me.
Genuinly pissed.
Go to hell CCP.
Edit: edited out the capslock, initial rage over, still pissed.
In spite of everything there was still a faint hope that common sense would prevail right till the last moment. But the moment the server came back after downtime, there could no longer be any doubt as to their contempt of the customer base. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
525
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:22:00 -
[1448] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: In spite of everything there was still a faint hope that common sense would prevail right till the last moment. But the moment the server came back after downtime, there could no longer be any doubt as to their contempt of the customer base.
Man I rob and steal from WH corps non stop and some fights now and then.
WH space is great fun for the rogue element but if you can't change where your WH goes to without being able to protect your ship it's all gone to shiet.
Literally can't afford to brawl a 50 man t3 fleet? Get out of wormholes.
Yeah they wont be able to crossjump roll you but adapting by fitting speed to ships? What is CCP smoking, you cant make carriers go fast with ab and mwd?
Ever heard of scram and dualweb? Anything big enough to roll with go slower than 30 meters/sec.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1121
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:22:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote:Ya know, when I see a Lazerhawks or similar wh corp scout pop in to my hole, I run for cover. Because as a small corp, that's the smart thing to do. If I get a cross hole to scary peoples, I can have a scout, and decide if I can roll the hole closed, or at least crit.
Except now doing that will be above my corp's acceptable risk level. Previously, if we messed up, or got lazy with scouting intel, bad things happened. So we learned from those mistakes, and try real hard not to make them again.
Now we have..... uncloseable frigate holes. More random holes. (I get 2 or 3 a day on average, at least, now. How many is "more"? And closing randoms will be a pretty darn rare occurrence for us now. It was risky before. Now it's unacceptably risky.
The first thing I was taught a few years ago when introduced to wh space was " It's not IF your wh ships will get blown up, it's WHEN" Lived by those words ever since. Every once in a while, it happens. I don't take it personally, it's almost always because I messed up or was lazy. And paid for it.
Now I am glad we can fuel the tower and make a reasonable profit from pretty much nothing but PI. WH ops are going to be few and far between for us with these cumulative changes. Too many random factors. No amount of hard work and intelligent gameplay can overcome RNG.
Sorry epicurus, but if you scan through our home in the future, I'm pretty sure you will continue on, because there won't be much going on. I don't take it personally if you or someone like you catches me being dumb and blows me up for it. That's Eve.
I wonder how long the novelty of "burner missions" will keep us playing Eve. The wormhole was already risk laden, but worth it. Now? Rapidly reaching the break over point where we say "not worth it".
*apologizes for no longer providing "content" for others. Blames CCP for forcing this corp decision.
** Make cynos do exactly the same thing. They are an instantaneous transition from one part of space to another after all. Why should they not operate under the same mechanic? I'm betting people would lose their frikkin minds. Apparently WH residents aren't "people"
Nicely written post, and you are so very right, we all suffer with this, large and small alike. We all are coming to similar conclusions, this will not end well. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
525
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:34:00 -
[1450] - Quote
It must be that blob mongers love for blobs.
Basically move around with a hugeass group or don't move at all.
That's what they are trying to push eve into.
How about you first spend a few hundreds of millions on servers that can support lag? Oh wait you don't have them.
Guess what you will have even less when people that kept playing for wormholes drop eve ranks. You think we will adapt? Yes we will but that doesn't mean we will stay.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
|
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
76
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:52:00 -
[1451] - Quote
Well I just tested it with a phoenix and the first time I was put out 15km from the hole the second time I was launched 12km off the wormhole.
I have pictures too which I will link later.
It was just me on my lonesome rolling and I had to check the whole chain before I could even think of solo commiting a dread to rolling.
It took me an unnecessary amount of time over 10 mins to secure the static and scan the surrounding wormholes to make sure I was safe enough to roll on my own with a capital considering the need to warp my dread off to a ping and back down.
All together about 15/20 mins including scanning making bookmarks to roll one hole.
Considering alot of corps in wh space are from 2 to 10 people max this is way to much time.
I was doing it as fast as I was able considering there was over 30 sigs in the static, I need a K space for fuel ammo plexes etc and rolling one hole took me that long. After all that time scanning there was no K spaces to speak of so now I have to repeat the process again.
Something that use to take a couple mins at the minimum now takes so long it makes me uninterested in playing. I have to take way to much into consideration due to the fact I now have to be 10x more carefull about commiting a cap rolling when im alone or with 1 or 2 other due to having to use warp pings.
Me personally I am in a reasonable sized corp so I wont always be alone but this has a HUGE impact on much smaller entities.
The sheer time difference is just ridiculous.
|
Ahost Gceo
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
173
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 13:59:00 -
[1452] - Quote
I am exceptionally disappointed CCP. Despite all the valid reasons veterans of w-space gave you for not making the mass based spawn distance change, not to mention the deafening outcry against doing so, you did it anyways.
I had already contemplated leaving w-space because of the time commitment involved which I can no longer support, but this has just made my exodus my first priority because now said commitment has expanded immensely.
Thank you CCP for nothing. I'm a friggin' banana. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
1171
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:06:00 -
[1453] - Quote
Whelp - the changes went through as predicted.
For those of you who are leaving WH space I figured I may aswell let you know you're more than welcome to look us up in Tri - we're WHers in Nullsec.
Man Chitsa would be proud. Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
245
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:07:00 -
[1454] - Quote
People will deal with this like they've dealt with everything else. People who quit will be replaced by others more accepting of the change.
The whole "sensor overlay will kill PvP' thing was supposed to be the killing blow for wormholes, and - guess what - it wasn't. Nor will this be.
Granted it affects people's established ways of playing the game, and negatively affects some more than others, but that's what wormholes are about - the unknown. The fact fixed statics, and rage-rolling, etc was ever possible is to be honest a failure on the part of CCP in not designing a system that was robust enough to keep things random. There's very little random about W-space now, which is why (previously at least) people critted or collapsed holes solo with alts just so they could bear with near total safety.
People who wouldn't fight if they saw you are unchanged by this new behaviour, so any argument about lost fights is imo misplaced. Previously if you rolled into someone and they don't want to fight you they would either POS up or log off (no change) or collapse you out - again in relative safety. Now they can't do that, so they either give up bearing for the day if you roll into them - or they fight. Some of them might just risk it, especially if they think you've gone away....
People being able to roll womholes every 60 seconds or so with just themselves and an alt or two while the rest of the corp twiddles their thumbs because they can't even contribute anything of value was always broken. And as for "small corps/one man bands in high class wormholes", why are they entitled to live there without needing to commit anything?
edit: Also - people talking about "rolling on my own" with capitals completely po-faced? If you talked about rolling around in caps in null with no support and why it should be risk free you'd be laughed off the forums, but because it's w-space it should be allowed? |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
528
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:10:00 -
[1455] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the changes to wormhole jump spawn distance that we proposed in our recently released dev blog. We will however blatantly disregard everything you say. Edited
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1123
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:19:00 -
[1456] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the changes to wormhole jump spawn distance that we proposed in our recently released dev blog. We will however blatantly disregard everything you say. Edited
We can imagine what you wrote. And probably agree. If we all wrote what we think, in full, then ISD would ban the entire WH forum outright. But why bother, it is only here so they can steal the odd idea, and mess it up, better we just stop talking to them altogether.
Wow fozzie, a gift that just keeps on giving isn't it? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:22:00 -
[1457] - Quote
His post wasn't edited, he quoted a faked/edited Fozzie post. Lol. . |
Brutarian
Narwhals Ate My Duck. Easily Excited
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:23:00 -
[1458] - Quote
Dear CCP.
Don-¦t ask us/me anymore for giving feedback if you plently IGNORE it anyway!
*facepalm* |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1123
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:23:00 -
[1459] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:His post wasn't edited, he quoted a faked/edited Fozzie post. Lol. You can tell the real ones from the trolls?
I guess the trolls threads usually contain less destructive ideas, but this one clearly started from a troll suggestion. Shame he never relented when that was pointed out to him, repeatedly. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
78
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:26:00 -
[1460] - Quote
CCP Fozzie Is the H1tler of WH Space. |
|
Firefox4312 Yatolila
Nex Exercitus Northern Coalition.
52
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:27:00 -
[1461] - Quote
This is what I don't understand CCP. When you first propose the changes, people hate the spawning from wormholes at different distances based on mass for various reasons. So instead of removing something that clearly no one likes, you rework it and shove it down throats anyways.
Now look where we are, 20 days after you made this thread, and 79 pages later. You're still getting the same complaints from more and more people. I would hope, you could realize 73 pages of complaints about something is enough of a reason to actually take the community's thoughts into consideration instead of just changing the numbers and forcing everyone to deal with it.
We've been down this road before with Monoclegate already, why venture down the same road of not listening to your player base and making a decision for thousands of people that don't want you to change it? Listen to the community, because we're the ones that pay you. We're the reason CCP still exists after 10+ years of Eve. But making a thread for complaints and criticism, the not listening to a single person in the thread tells us you really don't care if we enjoy the changes or not, and you'd rather change what you think should be changed, when in reality the people don't want you to change it.
Hell, the 4th post in this thread noted everything wrong with this, and that was 20 days ago. Now we're here, and people still don't like the changes.
So here's a word of advise, take into consideration the 73 pages of posts here, soon to be 74 pages and the sheer number of people that dislike these wormhole changes, and stop forcing them on us when no one likes them, and do what the community says.
Even with a 14km max range a dread could spawn from the wormhole, it makes rolling holes for smaller groups nearly impossible because they can't jump it right back, and if it gets caught by a larger group, they can't save it, because they don't have nearly as many numbers. And larger groups can still roll and all that, but it makes it a lot more tedious and annoying for the group to do it.
So, if this was your attempt to make it so small groups could have a chance in wormholes, you kinda screwed them over a lot here.
Quote:Create some variety and excitement in wormhole mechanics since most havenGÇÖt changed in many years
This was a quote from the dev blog, have you ever wondered that maybe people were happy with the mechanics and that's why they haven't changed for a long time? Because you don't fix what isn't broken, so you should leave the mechanics alone.
Quote:Provide ways for players to engage more fully with the random and mysterious elements of wormhole life and a ease back on attempts to GÇÿtameGÇÖ and control wormhole mechanics
So let me get this straight, you want to make something in this game 100% random whether you'll lose 0 isk or you'll lose billions of isk? Seriously, why would you want to leave something up to chance? People don't like the notion that if they do something that used to be consistent in the past, and doing it now is going to be a random chance that can screw them over, why would they want to do that?
The rest of the changes, reworking numbers and %s of effects, C4s getting a new static, the scan sigs staying the same, etc.. are good changes. But the mass based spawning is just terrible in of itself. No one really likes it. And those that do for the most part probably don't live in wormholes nor use capitals to roll holes so they know what'd it be like to live with these changes.
So yea, if you want to make wormholes more interesting ccp, stop fixing mechanics that are working perfectly fine, and add something new to the game instead of breaking it. Hell, where's walking in stations? Instead of using the dev time to fix things that aren't broken, why don't you use that time for something people have wanted for a long time since you announced it now? I bet you won't get complaints from the community that you finally made walking in stations possible. I'm still looking forward for it, and so are a lot of others, but I doubt we'll get it if you're time is better used fixing things that the general consensus about is perfectly fine and doesn't need to be changed.
As per usual, doubt any of this will be taken into consideration, because if 73 pages of replies isn't enough for CCP, a single post isn't enough either.
But don't make your community hate you more, even if you intend the best for them, when you're "help" starts to turn into something people find hurtful and not helpful, you're doing something wrong as both a corporation with a responsibility to your customers, and a community of devs with a responsibility to make an enjoyable game for your player base. In the end of it, we pay your salaries, so don't **** off the entire source of where your income comes from, because frankly, that's a really bad idea for any company. |
Elana Apgar
DarkMatter-Industries Upholders
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:34:00 -
[1462] - Quote
Well, Hyperion has been deployed and I've had a chance to experience the wormhole jump mass thing.
I STILL HATE IT.
I spawned over 7.5 km away from the wormhole in a WOLF. A WOLF FOZZIE. You know what else spawned 7.2 km from the wormhole? An Impel, which is horrible because these ships are about as fast as a freighter. You might as well remove the polarization timer from the game, because with these new jump mechanics, it won't matter. You're so screwed in any ship at any time.
This change is terrible/horrible/no good.
Why won't you listen to us? You seem to have no problems listening to incursion runners... |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
79
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:41:00 -
[1463] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote:Well I just tested it with a phoenix and the first time I was put out 15km from the hole the second time I was launched 12km off the wormhole.
I have pictures too which I will link later.
It was just me on my lonesome rolling and I had to check the whole chain before I could even think of solo commiting a dread to rolling.
It took me an unnecessary amount of time over 10 mins to secure the static and scan the surrounding wormholes to make sure I was safe enough to roll on my own with a capital considering the need to warp my dread off to a ping and back down.
All together about 15/20 mins including scanning making bookmarks to roll one hole.
Considering alot of corps in wh space are from 2 to 10 people max this is way to much time.
I was doing it as fast as I was able considering there was over 30 sigs in the static, I need a K space for fuel ammo plexes etc and rolling one hole took me that long. After all that time scanning there was no K spaces to speak of so now I have to repeat the process again.
Something that use to take a couple mins at the minimum now takes so long it makes me uninterested in playing. I have to take way to much into consideration due to the fact I now have to be 10x more carefull about commiting a cap rolling when im alone or with 1 or 2 other due to having to use warp pings.
Me personally I am in a reasonable sized corp so I wont always be alone but this has a HUGE impact on much smaller entities.
The sheer time difference is just ridiculous.
I would just like to add to this that I jumped an Archon and Dread through together and they were 20km away from each other. I did this to test the ranges that I would land in the event I was committing people to a fight against another entity in the static.
Now If everyone thought that getting people to jump into them for wh fights was hard before then look forward to getting absolutely none now.
Before I could rely on my carrier, I had a fall back being a smaller corp fighting larger numbers I was able to use my force multipliers to even things out but now I will find myself unable to do so.
Okay Whale girth as a corp should not suffer that badly from this but the MUCH smaller corps will not have any choice but to pos spin because where as before they could take a chance and commit to a fight with there caps knowing they would be able to refit and or be in logi range now there is not that consistency.
Now if you jump through you either win or die there is no chance to bloody a few teeth and kill one or two capitals loose one or two and pull your surviving capitals back if you are loosing, you are now fully committed to nothing but death as the side who jumps through into larger numbers as they can bring as many as they like through connecting wormholes where as you cant.
What does this mean? Fights that are already a little difficult to coax out of people will just not even start now. People will be unwilling to commit caps to support there fleets in fights if it means there dreads will 100% of the time go unsupported by a carrier or 2.
THERE IS SO MUCH you did not take into account CCP! This change sure has affected the ability to combat roll but it has destroyed aspects of wormhole pvp you may not of realised. It has completely removed tactics from the playing field that you could use before!
I can survive and adapt to this but the smaller medium sized corps will suffer incredibly and pvp in wh space will be reduced even more than it is so! I cannot be silent as they need a people to speak out for them.
If we accept these changes then wh space will wither away.
So I say to you Fozzie:
**** you Fozzie **** you in the ass you ******* ****. |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:44:00 -
[1464] - Quote
Watching current crossholes right now. Just watched a Noctis come from a C4.
Named "wtswh" Gee I wonder what that stands for?
And yes I am going to let the folks move their stuff out unmolested. |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2301
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 14:55:00 -
[1465] - Quote
I guess on a positive note, I have found that essentially nullified cloaky T3 scouts and blockade runners are about as safe as possible now. It used to be at least a percentage of the time they would land too close to the WH to cloak. But so far now they haven't landed closer than 4k. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1123
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:06:00 -
[1466] - Quote
Derath Ellecon wrote:I guess on a positive note, I have found that essentially nullified cloaky T3 scouts and blockade runners are about as safe as possible now. It used to be at least a percentage of the time they would land too close to the WH to cloak. But so far now they haven't landed closer than 4k.
Don't tell him, he will frak that over too now. Give people a chance to move their stuff out first, then it doesn't matter. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
79
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:08:00 -
[1467] - Quote
I too will allow anyone moving through any chains im connected too to get out if need be.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1124
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:14:00 -
[1468] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote:I too will allow anyone moving through any chains im connected too to get out if need be.
Seems a fair and reasonable point of view we should all take, after all their in game lives have been hurt enough without us preying on them like hyenas. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:20:00 -
[1469] - Quote
Despite all was said around here you went through with your nincompoop idea. And you are still wondering how your designs are always reiterated by players ?!? Golf Clap |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
118
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:23:00 -
[1470] - Quote
My beloved EvE-Devs, I been around for close to 10 years now and I still love this game, Fozzie.
I am very passionate about WH space because I think this is the most exciting place to be in EvE. Also my corporation is helping new players to get settled in w-space. Not only do we offer solid advice but also allow new corps to live and pew pew with us and learn. (a C2 training WH)
We do this because we love w-space and want it to be in good shape and share the good time we have here.
Now that the patch went live and after some testing with our statics I need to tell you that this is horrible.
I never felt so misunderstood by you, Devs, ever. Not even Incarna upset me that much. This is pretty much how our entire group feels about this.
If you have any good intentions for the well-being of w-space please listen to us. There has not been a single entity that had anything positive to say about this change.
Whatever good intentions you had with this change it will hurt w-space.
Cheers, Bleeding
|
|
Scarlet Nobleonce
Dominion Enterprise Psychosomatic.
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:25:00 -
[1471] - Quote
Thanks CCP for letting us know you care nuthing for your player base. This a horbaly broken machanic is flakey as hell. I nominate CCP Fozzie for the darwin award. for most hated patch of all time. A nother briliant patch from CCP. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1124
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:25:00 -
[1472] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:My beloved EvE-Devs, I been around for close to 10 years now and I still love this game, Fozzie.
I am very passionate about WH space because I think this is the most exciting place to be in EvE. Also my corporation is helping new players to get settled in w-space. Not only do we offer solid advice but also allow new corps to live and pew pew with us and learn. (a C2 training WH)
We do this because we love w-space and want it to be in good shape and share the good time we have here.
Now that the patch went live and after some testing with our statics I need to tell you that this is horrible.
I never felt so misunderstood by you, Devs, ever. Not even Incarna upset me that much. This is pretty much how our entire group feels about this.
If you have any good intentions for the well-being of w-space please listen to us. There has not been a single entity that had anything positive to say about this change.
Whatever good intentions you had with this change it will hurt w-space.
Cheers, Bleeding
It is like trying to get a cheating unfaithful wife to reform.
They get called ex wives for a good reason.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
246
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:30:00 -
[1473] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote: I would just like to add to this that I jumped an Archon and Dread through together and they were 20km away from each other. I did this to test the ranges that I would land in the event I was committing people to a fight against another entity in the static.
Now If everyone thought that getting people to jump into them for wh fights was hard before then look forward to getting absolutely none now.
Before I could rely on my carrier, I had a fall back being a smaller corp fighting larger numbers I was able to use my force multipliers to even things out but now I will find myself unable to do so.
Okay Whale girth as a corp should not suffer that badly from this but the MUCH smaller corps will not have any choice but to pos spin because where as before they could take a chance and commit to a fight with there caps knowing they would be able to refit and or be in logi range now there is not that consistency.
Now if you jump through you either win or die there is no chance to bloody a few teeth and kill one or two capitals loose one or two and pull your surviving capitals back if you are loosing, you are now fully committed to nothing but death as the side who jumps through into larger numbers as they can bring as many as they like through connecting wormholes where as you cant.
What does this mean? Fights that are already a little difficult to coax out of people will just not even start now. People will be unwilling to commit caps to support there fleets in fights if it means there dreads will 100% of the time go unsupported by a carrier or 2.
THERE IS SO MUCH you did not take into account CCP! This change sure has affected the ability to combat roll but it has destroyed aspects of wormhole pvp you may not of realised. It has completely removed tactics from the playing field that you could use before!
I can survive and adapt to this but the smaller medium sized corps will suffer incredibly and pvp in wh space will be reduced even more than it is so! I cannot be silent as they need a people to speak out for them.
If we accept these changes then wh space will wither away.
So I say to you Fozzie:
**** you Fozzie **** you in the ass you ******* ****.
On what planet did risk averse people jump an unsupported carrier and dread in for fights with medium/large entities? You're basically making up PvP scenarios that never took place even pre-Hyperion to support your argument, an argument which is basically nonsense. On the one hand you say that solo "force multiplier" fights involving unsupported carrier(s) and dread(s) was possible pre-Hyperion, and that by jumping in potentially 20km apart that this is now utterly impossible?
People who have hardly any numbers online blindly throwing caps at larger forces that they can't beat even with a carrier? Yeah that happens all day long, they don't POS up or log off immediately or anything.
What it sounds like you're defending is people being able to throw a capital into a wormhole safe in the knowledge that if the heat gets too much they can jump back out again in safety. That's not fighting, that's bottom-tier PvP. Fights on wormholes are - except in instances where both sides are up for the fight and comparable size - an utter waste of time. Either party can deaggress on a whim and jump out to save their ship.
If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all. It's a fallacy to suggest it was a force multiplier solo, because the force you're proposing it multiples is exactly the force that should be able to protect it as it motors back to the wormhole. If by "force" you mean your couple of alts - well, once again, we're talking weak sauce "deaggress when the heat gets too much" PvP.
I fully welcome mechanics that encourage commitment of capitals. I say again - in nullsec space it would be laughable to suggest that one guy and his alts should be able to ping around different systems with impunity simply because they know to a certainty that jumping in and back out again will stop anyone from being able to follow them. if rage-rolling has to take a time penalty hit for this then so be it.
And lest we forget - for the "victims" being rolled into, when this happens they also now can't collapse you in/out easily. So if you roll into someone who was about to bear, they either have to deal with your presence now, fight you off the hole so they can close it, or give up for the day. There will, in spite of all the doom mongering, be people who don't want to have to turn Eve off because a PvP entity happened to roll into them and they now can't do what they wanted to do. Burning ISK making time is a strong motivator.
Basically - wait and see what happens before you pronounce the end of days, eh? |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
80
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:36:00 -
[1474] - Quote
Well hello Mr I Cant Read.
I was testing the ranges that capitals would land apart from each other and if you cant get that from what I said then I cant make it any clearer.
The whole point was to determine how one sided it would be for people using capitals against people setup on the otherside would be.
There is no chance of carriers being in range of each other or other dreads to support with refits with the current mass range change. This would mean that many people would be unable to commit there caps with lower sub cap numbers against a larger force or even with even numbers.
Its heavily swayed in the favour of the force being jumped into as the carriers and dreads will all be unable to refit due to being 10 to 20km on average away from each other on jump in.
No where in that post did I say that those capitals would be unsupported by subcaps.
Now please take this gun.
^=====' ||z
And shoot yourself. |
Scarlet Nobleonce
Dominion Enterprise Psychosomatic.
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:43:00 -
[1475] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Van Steiza wrote: I would just like to add to this that I jumped an Archon and Dread through together and they were 20km away from each other. I did this to test the ranges that I would land in the event I was committing people to a fight against another entity in the static.
Now If everyone thought that getting people to jump into them for wh fights was hard before then look forward to getting absolutely none now.
Before I could rely on my carrier, I had a fall back being a smaller corp fighting larger numbers I was able to use my force multipliers to even things out but now I will find myself unable to do so.
Okay Whale girth as a corp should not suffer that badly from this but the MUCH smaller corps will not have any choice but to pos spin because where as before they could take a chance and commit to a fight with there caps knowing they would be able to refit and or be in logi range now there is not that consistency.
Now if you jump through you either win or die there is no chance to bloody a few teeth and kill one or two capitals loose one or two and pull your surviving capitals back if you are loosing, you are now fully committed to nothing but death as the side who jumps through into larger numbers as they can bring as many as they like through connecting wormholes where as you cant.
What does this mean? Fights that are already a little difficult to coax out of people will just not even start now. People will be unwilling to commit caps to support there fleets in fights if it means there dreads will 100% of the time go unsupported by a carrier or 2.
THERE IS SO MUCH you did not take into account CCP! This change sure has affected the ability to combat roll but it has destroyed aspects of wormhole pvp you may not of realised. It has completely removed tactics from the playing field that you could use before!
I can survive and adapt to this but the smaller medium sized corps will suffer incredibly and pvp in wh space will be reduced even more than it is so! I cannot be silent as they need a people to speak out for them.
If we accept these changes then wh space will wither away.
So I say to you Fozzie:
**** you Fozzie **** you in the ass you ******* ****.
On what planet did risk averse people jump an unsupported carrier and dread in for fights with medium/large entities? You're basically making up PvP scenarios that never took place even pre-Hyperion to support your argument, an argument which is basically nonsense. On the one hand you say that solo "force multiplier" fights involving unsupported carrier(s) and dread(s) was possible pre-Hyperion, and that by jumping in potentially 20km apart that this is now utterly impossible? People who have hardly any numbers online blindly throwing caps at larger forces that they can't beat even with a carrier? Yeah that happens all day long, they don't POS up or log off immediately or anything. What it sounds like you're defending is people being able to throw a capital into a wormhole safe in the knowledge that if the heat gets too much they can jump back out again in safety. That's not fighting, that's bottom-tier PvP. Fights on wormholes are - except in instances where both sides are up for the fight and comparable size - an utter waste of time. Either party can deaggress on a whim and jump out to save their ship. If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all. It's a fallacy to suggest it was a force multiplier solo, because the force you're proposing it multiples is exactly the force that should be able to protect it as it motors back to the wormhole. If by "force" you mean your couple of alts - well, once again, we're talking weak sauce "deaggress when the heat gets too much" PvP. I fully welcome mechanics that encourage commitment of capitals. I say again - in nullsec space it would be laughable to suggest that one guy and his alts should be able to ping around different systems with impunity simply because they know to a certainty that jumping in and back out again will stop anyone from being able to follow them. if rage-rolling has to take a time penalty hit for this then so be it. And lest we forget - for the "victims" being rolled into, when this happens they also now can't collapse you in/out easily. So if you roll into someone who was about to bear, they either have to deal with your presence now, fight you off the hole so they can close it, or give up for the day. There will, in spite of all the doom mongering, be people who don't want to have to turn Eve off because a PvP entity happened to roll into them and they now can't do what they wanted to do. Burning ISK making time is a strong motivator. Basically - wait and see what happens before you pronounce the end of days, eh?
Man i would like what ever your smoking! It is true you dont normaly blindly comit multi caps with out support fleets. however the point remains that the machanic is horbaly broken. Actvation Range can be sketchey. I hope to god they apply the same machanic to cynos and gates. so other people can feel our pain insted of just blindly posting with no idea on the repercusions this change has on our community.
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:44:00 -
[1476] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote: I would just like to add to this that I jumped an Archon and Dread through together and they were 20km away from each other.
Yeah I wanna see pics of that, that is....yeah....that's ****** up. |
Mii-Tan Thiefraven
GrimRaven Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:46:00 -
[1477] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:My beloved EvE-Devs, I been around for close to 10 years now and I still love this game, Fozzie.
I am very passionate about WH space because I think this is the most exciting place to be in EvE. Also my corporation is helping new players to get settled in w-space. Not only do we offer solid advice but also allow new corps to live and pew pew with us and learn. (a C2 training WH)
We do this because we love w-space and want it to be in good shape and share the good time we have here.
Now that the patch went live and after some testing with our statics I need to tell you that this is horrible.
I never felt so misunderstood by you, Devs, ever. Not even Incarna upset me that much. This is pretty much how our entire group feels about this.
If you have any good intentions for the well-being of w-space please listen to us. There has not been a single entity that had anything positive to say about this change.
Whatever good intentions you had with this change it will hurt w-space.
Cheers, Bleeding
My corporation is one of the new ones Bleeding is talking about, Raptor Navy has been a huge help for us. We have just started to be able to close for ourselves.
I understand we are a small unknown corporation with limited understanding, we however also see this as a less than enjoyable change. Just getting started as it used to be was risky enough, now we are back to relying on Raptor Navy to close for us.
|
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
83
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 15:46:00 -
[1478] - Quote
Durzel wrote:
If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all.
What are you smoking have you even tested this? A phoenix on average will be 15km from the hole plus or minus a couple of km with a minimum of 12 as I have tested this myself today multiple times with different dreads carriers etc.
|
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:02:00 -
[1479] - Quote
Mii-Tan Thiefraven wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:My beloved EvE-Devs, I been around for close to 10 years now and I still love this game, Fozzie.
I am very passionate about WH space because I think this is the most exciting place to be in EvE. Also my corporation is helping new players to get settled in w-space. Not only do we offer solid advice but also allow new corps to live and pew pew with us and learn. (a C2 training WH)
We do this because we love w-space and want it to be in good shape and share the good time we have here.
Now that the patch went live and after some testing with our statics I need to tell you that this is horrible.
I never felt so misunderstood by you, Devs, ever. Not even Incarna upset me that much. This is pretty much how our entire group feels about this.
If you have any good intentions for the well-being of w-space please listen to us. There has not been a single entity that had anything positive to say about this change.
Whatever good intentions you had with this change it will hurt w-space.
Cheers, Bleeding
My corporation is one of the new ones Bleeding is talking about, Raptor Navy has been a huge help for us. We have just started to be able to close for ourselves. I understand we are a small unknown corporation with limited understanding, we however also see this as a less than enjoyable change. Just getting started as it used to be was risky enough, now we are back to relying on Raptor Navy to close for us.
It takes 4 characters with 100mn mwd battleships (and at least one of those need to know basic addition of numbers) two passes. Unless you are lazy and only willing to roll with orcas this change will have no real risk effect.. raptor navy should know better then the arguments presented above ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:03:00 -
[1480] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote:Durzel wrote:
If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all.
What are you smoking have you even tested this? A phoenix on average will be 15km from the hole plus or minus a couple of km with a minimum of 12 as I have tested this myself today multiple times with different dreads carriers etc. forget testing the numbers are clearly printed for everyone to read on the dev blog...durzel is simply here to troll not actually provide constructive feedback |
|
Vorick Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:08:00 -
[1481] - Quote
http://puu.sh/b8JWz/bec06ac71d.png
Get. Rekt. |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
246
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:36:00 -
[1482] - Quote
Van Steiza wrote:Durzel wrote:
If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all.
What are you smoking have you even tested this? A phoenix on average will be 15km from the hole plus or minus a couple of km with a minimum of 12 as I have tested this myself today multiple times with different dreads carriers etc. Like I said, they'll have around 5-10km to travel to reach 5km jump range. With proper support, that's inconsequential.
This change effectively stops people just jumping caps solo to rage-roll, the change is designed to ensure that people jump capitals when they have an effective gang on standby to protect them, not jumping them back and forth without any real danger (since you spawned the hole in the first place you have the advantage of whoever you might jump into having to scan it before they can mobilise).
The change stops 1 or 2 people rage-rolling with just themselves and alts - while the rest of their corp sleeps or is sat on TS playing World of Tanks contributing nothing of value because they can't contribute anything of value. They can't collapse any quicker by sitting around on the wormhole while it gets collapsed and another scanned out. They are completely redundant in the collapsing process.
Whether people are upset that they can't just bear in peace while their corpies are asleep by critting/collapsing their incoming holes in safety is a secondary consideration - but let's not pretend this is about PvP and the precious risk-averse small corps who suddenly won't commit to fights they didn't commit to before anyway, or some nonsense about solo/small entities jumping caps with next to no support because carriers are magic force mulitpliers or some ****.
The elephant in the room that people are secretly annoyed about with this change is that:
- People suddenly can't bear safely by closing up holes with just 1 or 2 accounts
- People can't have weak ass fights on wormholes safe in the knowledge they can just jump in and already be in jump range to jump back out again if they get shot too much
None of this has anything to do with meaningful PvP really, it's just another form of risk aversion that people aren't prepared to admit is what it is.
People who are risk averse and wouldn't have warped to a wormhole to collapse it when you connected to them pre-Hyperion are going to continue not doing so, so nothing changes.
edit: People talking about cynos throwing ships 10km+ out from the cyno are completely disregarding the fact that if you jump to a cyno in a cap where are you going to go from there if you get tackled? You can't jump back out like you can if you're sat on a wormhole, you can't even use a gate. Don't conflate the two completely different paradigms. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
124
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:38:00 -
[1483] - Quote
calaretu wrote: It takes 4 characters with 100mn mwd battleships (and at least one of those need to know basic addition of numbers) two passes. Unless you are lazy and only willing to roll with orcas this change will have no real risk effect.. raptor navy should know better then the arguments presented above
You will die without being polarized even in cruisers. Prove: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=24970053 Devoters will land 10 km off the WH. Good luck getting them back home.
It feels like a gate now.
And btw. we are talking about a 3 bil C2-C5 connection.
Edit: And a few mins later they have enough ppl online so we could not even roll if we had enough ppl online to close it in one go. Now what? Cant split their forces, can't brawl it out (would be suicide), offline for the rest of the day? |
Van Steiza
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:44:00 -
[1484] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Van Steiza wrote:Durzel wrote:
If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all.
What are you smoking have you even tested this? A phoenix on average will be 15km from the hole plus or minus a couple of km with a minimum of 12 as I have tested this myself today multiple times with different dreads carriers etc. Like I said, they'll have around 5-10km to travel to reach 5km jump range. With proper support, that's inconsequential. This change effectively stops people just jumping caps solo to rage-roll, the change is designed to ensure that people jump capitals when they have an effective gang on standby to protect them, not jumping them back and forth without any real danger (since you spawned the hole in the first place you have the advantage of whoever you might jump into having to scan it before they can mobilise). The change stops 1 or 2 people rage-rolling with just themselves and alts - while the rest of their corp sleeps or is sat on TS playing World of Tanks contributing nothing of value because they can't contribute anything of value. They can't collapse any quicker by sitting around on the wormhole while it gets collapsed and another scanned out. They are completely redundant in the collapsing process. Whether people are upset that they can't just bear in peace while their corpies are asleep by critting/collapsing their incoming holes in safety is a secondary consideration - but let's not pretend this is about PvP and the precious risk-averse small corps who suddenly won't commit to fights they didn't commit to before anyway, or some nonsense about solo/small entities jumping caps with next to no support because carriers are magic force mulitpliers or some ****. The elephant in the room that people are secretly annoyed about with this change is that:
- People suddenly can't bear safely by closing up holes with just 1 or 2 accounts
- People can't have weak ass fights on wormholes safe in the knowledge they can just jump in and already be in jump range to jump back out again if they get shot too much
None of this has anything to do with meaningful PvP really, it's just another form of risk aversion that people aren't prepared to admit is what it is. People who are risk averse and wouldn't have warped to a wormhole to collapse it when you connected to them pre-Hyperion are going to continue not doing so, so nothing changes. edit: People talking about cynos throwing ships 10km+ out from the cyno are completely disregarding the fact that if you jump to a cyno in a cap where are you going to go from there if you get tackled? You can't jump back out like you can if you're sat on a wormhole, you can't even use a gate. Don't conflate the two completely different paradigms.
Take this gun,
^=====' ||z
And shoot yourself.
You are very out of touch with the rest of community if you think this entire 75 page threadnought was simply about being pissed off about isk making being diminished to some degree.
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:48:00 -
[1485] - Quote
Just as horrible as I thought it would be, thanks CCP...
|
Abon Riff
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:51:00 -
[1486] - Quote
With effect from 1st September 2014, all Ford motor vehicles sold in the USA will have a new feature added to their engine management system. This device will be known as RED (Randon Engine Disabler). What RED does, is at a random point in time from starting yor engine, it will shut off the fuel to the carburetor; causing the engine to stall and the car to coast to a stop. Ford have decided to do this to enhance the driving experience of their cars, along with reducing emmissions from their motors as a whole.
This device was trialed in Panama in May, and initial public response was shock and horror. One man, Pablo Garcia, a local government offocal stated, "We neither need or want this change, and 90% of our drivers feel that it adds nothing to our driving experience. In fact it makes it a whole lot more dangerous". he also wrote an article for the The Bocas Breeze, a Panamanian newspaper, In it he said that it was the dumbest thing he had ever heard of, and the only one likely to remain alive after a 'RED stop', were people in large SUVs or Trucks.
Fords online forums have become clogged up with people voicing their disgust at this proposed change, but it seems Ford just are not listening.
A Ford spokesman said that he was excited with this upcoming change and will herald a whole new driving experience for our Ford driver base. He s also quoted as saying, that despit epublic concerns, Ford would be going ahead with the minor software change to the engine management chip.
Drivers of other cas are likely to remain unaffected, though a Toyota spokesman was heard to say, "In terms of Toyota, this is the best thing Ford have ever proposed".
N.B. Other car makes could have been chosen for this example, as could other countries. No harm or insult is intended to drivers of Ford, Toyota, or the residents of North Amreica or Panama.
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 16:55:00 -
[1487] - Quote
Abon Riff wrote:With effect from 1st September 2014, all Ford motor vehicles sold in the USA will have a new feature added to their engine management system. This device will be known as RED (Randon Engine Disabler). What RED does, is at a random point in time from starting yor engine, it will shut off the fuel to the carburetor; causing the engine to stall and the car to coast to a stop. Ford have decided to do this to enhance the driving experience of their cars, along with reducing emmissions from their motors as a whole.
This device was trialed in Panama in May, and initial public response was shock and horror. One man, Pablo Garcia, a local government offocal stated, "We neither need or want this change, and 90% of our drivers feel that it adds nothing to our driving experience. In fact it makes it a whole lot more dangerous". he also wrote an article for the The Bocas Breeze, a Panamanian newspaper, In it he said that it was the dumbest thing he had ever heard of, and the only one likely to remain alive after a 'RED stop', were people in large SUVs or Trucks.
Fords online forums have become clogged up with people voicing their disgust at this proposed change, but it seems Ford just are not listening.
A Ford spokesman said that he was excited with this upcoming change and will herald a whole new driving experience for our Ford driver base. He s also quoted as saying, that despit epublic concerns, Ford would be going ahead with the minor software change to the engine management chip.
Drivers of other cas are likely to remain unaffected, though a Toyota spokesman was heard to say, "In terms of Toyota, this is the best thing Ford have ever proposed".
N.B. Other car makes could have been chosen for this example, as could other countries. No harm or insult is intended to drivers of Ford, Toyota, or the residents of North Amreica or Panama.
lol |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
154
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 17:00:00 -
[1488] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4954065 Proposal for mass-based spawn distance on Jump Portals and Jump Drives. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
754
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 17:19:00 -
[1489] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:You will die without being polarized even in cruisers. Prove: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=24970053Devoters will land 10 km off the WH. Good luck getting them back home. It feels like a gate now. And btw. we are talking about a 3 bil C2-C5 connection. Edit: And a few mins later they have enough ppl online so we could not even roll if we had enough ppl online to close it in one go. Now what? Cant split their forces, can't brawl it out (would be suicide), offline for the rest of the day?
**Goes off to suggest on corp forums we have a "don't jump wormholes without full strength online" policy**
(I'm just kidding btw but sadly for some that is likely to happen with this change).
|
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
33
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 17:33:00 -
[1490] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Van Steiza wrote:Durzel wrote:
If you can't support a capital that is likely to be at most around 5-10km in jump range then you shouldn't be jumping it in at all.
What are you smoking have you even tested this? A phoenix on average will be 15km from the hole plus or minus a couple of km with a minimum of 12 as I have tested this myself today multiple times with different dreads carriers etc. Nonsense . edit: People talking about cynos throwing ships 10km+ out from the cyno are completely disregarding the fact that if you jump to a cyno in a cap where are you going to go from there if you get tackled? You can't jump back out like you can if you're sat on a wormhole, you can't even use a gate. Don't conflate the two completely different paradigms.
M8, you have no clue, have you? We don't have local, we always scout, and map chains, we know the players and the big corps. Everybody that wants some success inside WH knows that intel is our primary defense. If two big corps find each-other they will fight, if a small one gets connected to a big one they will get in contact and either get permission to roll or log off and force the big corp to roll. This change will get some caps ganked , maybe, but it won't be a conflict driver, it will only slow down life, make content creation harder and screw with how we use caps on the offensive (but you wouldn't know that).
A cap in null that is tackled can go to another cyno when it loses tackle , a cap in WH won't go anywhere. Yeah, sure he may warp but he won't escape.
P.S. The fact that some pansy arses don't want to commit forces in order to grab a capital it doesn't mean rolling is risk free as it is now (I mean used to be). Now it's risky for both parties (I mean it used to be) compared with being risky just for the cap pilot. |
|
Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
144
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 17:57:00 -
[1491] - Quote
Star Citizen is now so much more attractive. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
|
CCP Falcon
8415
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 18:02:00 -
[1492] - Quote
It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread.
I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out.
If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.
Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that.
While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
CCP Falcon || Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon
Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3 |
|
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
157
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 18:07:00 -
[1493] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread.
No ****. If you had a store that promised people there'd be a 2-for-1 sale tomorrow, and then it didn't happen, they'd get pissed.
CCP Falcon wrote:I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out.
Bullshit.
CCP Falcon wrote:If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.
So you're confirming this thread was 100% pointless and that CCP took zero time reading it or any of the arguments.
CCP Falcon wrote:Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that.
Then LISTEN TO YOUR USERBASE. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
756
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 18:15:00 -
[1494] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
I'm not sure you want that thread spammed with basically duplicates of all the same arguments that have gone on in this thread, none the least it would potentially obscure other issues.
There was plenty of time to address the concerns with this mechanic here. |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
60
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 18:18:00 -
[1495] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated. Maybe if the CCP staff didn't lie, cheat and figurativly give the entire W-space community the middle finger. Then we could talk about being nice to each other.. Fact is, that as long as CCP employes treat the community the way Hilmar publicly apologized for doing, then how can we trust you? If we can't trust Hilmar then who at CCP can we trust? Our CSM is just a marketing toy for CCP to give us the sense of having something to say, while in fact we are just along for the ride. Nothing we do matters, your Dev made that very clear thanks.
Amazing that CCP is more concerned about 1 case of SOMER/RMT than they are about an entire community raging, yelling, quitting etc. How much response have we had here? 5 posts? and a vauge townhall where the Dev didn't do anything but show us a fat middle finger?
So please.. When you talk about respect, try to look in your own ranks.. Respect is earned, and it isn't earned by lying and disrespecting the community. This is why I petitioned the community team a long time ago, to get you in here and stop the madness, but you were silent..
You (red. CCP) choose to **** on the desk.. Please be respectfull enough to not complain about the smell and clean it up yourself. Thank You.
Ps. Asking for constructive feedback? Are you trolling us? Havn't you just proved that giving feedback is pointless cause you don't give a **** anyway? |
Scarlet Nobleonce
Dominion Enterprise Psychosomatic.
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 18:33:00 -
[1496] - Quote
Steven Hackett wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated. Maybe if the CCP staff didn't lie, cheat and figurativly give the entire W-space community the middle finger. Then we could talk about being nice to each other.. Fact is, that as long as CCP employes treat the community the way Hilmar publicly apologized for doing, then how can we trust you? If we can't trust Hilmar then who at CCP can we trust? Our CSM is just a marketing toy for CCP to give us the sense of having something to say, while in fact we are just along for the ride. Nothing we do matters, your Dev made that very clear thanks. Amazing that CCP is more concerned about 1 case of SOMER/RMT than they are about an entire community raging, yelling, quitting etc. How much response have we had here? 5 posts? and a vauge townhall where the Dev didn't do anything but show us a fat middle finger? So please.. When you talk about respect, try to look in your own ranks.. Respect is earned, and it isn't earned by lying and disrespecting the community. This is why I petitioned the community team a long time ago, to get you in here and stop the madness, but you were silent.. You (red. CCP) choose to **** on the desk.. Please be respectfull enough to not complain about the smell and clean it up yourself. Thank You. Ps. Asking for constructive feedback? Are you trolling us? Havn't you just proved that giving feedback is pointless cause you don't give a **** anyway?
Amen!
|
Lamhoofd Hashur
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 18:36:00 -
[1497] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote: If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.
The feedback can be found in this thread, pretty much the first 50 pages was mostly relevant feedback.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1126
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 18:38:00 -
[1498] - Quote
@ Falcon. You may very well believe that things have got out of hand.
You may feel that people are being unfair to The devs who designed and implemented this change against the strong wishes and reasoned and detailed explanations of exactly why it was an extremely bad idea.
Whilst the Devs may have not been the deciding authority, they are the ones the management put up against the wall to face the response of the community.
The mess is one of your own making.
Clearly you would wish to move on and forget the whole thing, and consider it a successful rollout.
Others do not.
Others will not forget.
Lessons have been learned.
Decisions have been made.
So.......Good luck with that.
Remember in the years ahead, what has been seen can never be unseen. And you as a company have been judged by your actions, and NOT your words. You have lost the right for your word to be trusted. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 19:08:00 -
[1499] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread.
While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
You may see us as dollar signs but please be aware that people are behind these subscriptions. |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 19:10:00 -
[1500] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
It feels a bit like one hand doesn't know what the other does at CCP these days? Please check first sentence of this thread perhaps?
I don't think its very encouraging to be told to use a "proper feedback" thread when the wh community been pritty much ignored for weeks now. If CCP had been better at customer relations, maybe things wouldnt gone out of hand to start with ?
We are after all customers, that invested time and money into this. So if things get a bit tense when you take a dump on the customers, thats to be expected right? Both CCP and the players realized long time ago eve-online as far away from hello-kitty as can be. When uppseting players at the level this turned out, growing thick skin should be part of that process.
I see rude comments, personal attacks and such as a failure of CCP to communicate. After all what is left for people to do when no one listen, and you been walked over?
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calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
164
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 19:20:00 -
[1501] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:calaretu wrote: It takes 4 characters with 100mn mwd battleships (and at least one of those need to know basic addition of numbers) two passes. Unless you are lazy and only willing to roll with orcas this change will have no real risk effect.. raptor navy should know better then the arguments presented above
You will die without being polarized even in cruisers. Prove: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=24970053Devoters will land 10 km off the WH. Good luck getting them back home. It feels like a gate now. And btw. we are talking about a 3 bil C2-C5 connection. Edit: And a few mins later they have enough ppl online so we could not even roll if we had enough ppl online to close it in one go. Now what? Cant split their forces, can't brawl it out (would be suicide), offline for the rest of the day?
Eh. Kite? Snipe? Something else creative? I am sure you guys have more doctrines than pure brawling. The killmail you link is exactly why this change is a good thing. Also have scouts so you know what you jump into so you dont jump a vigi into a t3 sitting and waiting. ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 19:29:00 -
[1502] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.
People have felt "strongly" since about 30 seconds after this idea was floated. Counting deletions, something like 130 plus pages worth of "strongly"
There have been posts nearly a full screen high, stating clearly and concisely what the results of this would be.
The WH csm has stated "clearly and concisely" what the vast majority of wh residents think.
Major WH corps have "strongly", and "clearly and concisely" their take on the whole thing.
Small WH corps like mine have "strongly", and "clearly and concisely" their take on the whole thing.
What did you think would happen? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
758
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 19:29:00 -
[1503] - Quote
calaretu wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:calaretu wrote: It takes 4 characters with 100mn mwd battleships (and at least one of those need to know basic addition of numbers) two passes. Unless you are lazy and only willing to roll with orcas this change will have no real risk effect.. raptor navy should know better then the arguments presented above
You will die without being polarized even in cruisers. Prove: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=24970053Devoters will land 10 km off the WH. Good luck getting them back home. It feels like a gate now. And btw. we are talking about a 3 bil C2-C5 connection. Edit: And a few mins later they have enough ppl online so we could not even roll if we had enough ppl online to close it in one go. Now what? Cant split their forces, can't brawl it out (would be suicide), offline for the rest of the day? Eh. Kite? Snipe? Something else creative? I am sure you guys have more doctrines than pure brawling. The killmail you link is exactly why this change is a good thing. Also have scouts so you know what you jump into so you dont jump a vigi into a t3 sitting and waiting.
I would say the opposite - it means that during off-peak times its effectively going to have an impact on the activity of what corp members can do, especially those whose work schedules, etc. might not quite match the rest of the corp. Also knowing the player in question I doubt he just randomly jumped it in unscouted without it being part of a plan.
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Ahost Gceo
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 19:34:00 -
[1504] - Quote
Just so you know CCP, I got one CSM member who liked my comment on being disappointed with your lack of concern about feedback. I would hazard a guess that I wasn't the only person who said the same exact thing the he +1'd either.
Your own CSM isn't even pleased with you. You'll need a tech-3 damage control for this one. I'm a friggin' banana. |
Kell Braugh
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 19:57:00 -
[1505] - Quote
Glasgow Dunlop wrote:If your going to do this with wormholes, why not jumpbridges and cynos as well? This. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 20:01:00 -
[1506] - Quote
Kell Braugh wrote:Glasgow Dunlop wrote:If your going to do this with wormholes, why not jumpbridges and cynos as well? This.
No because we do not wish this mechanic on anyone else its that bad So Much Space |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
107
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 20:14:00 -
[1507] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
Pull your head out of your ass and go look at this thread and the unofficial thread for feedback about how the community changes. Beyond that, you have a ****** public reputation for lying to the family members of those laid off so remind us again why we should take your or any other CCP member at face value? All you do is lie, obfuscate, and ignore. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Siliya
The Malleus Maleficarum Random-Violence
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 20:56:00 -
[1508] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
Seriously Falcon ... how Dense are the Devs ... the 1st thread went 30 pages but has been ignored based on "incorrect ranges" this thread has hit 75 pages and was ignored because someone was on a power trip
now you want us to do this all over again on yet ANOTHER thread when we know our feedback is little more to you than **** in a bucket
Im sure some people will take it there
Im also fairly sure you have a betting pool at the office about how long this thread will go or how many hoops you will get us to jump through over this change
like has been said ... look at the 1st 50 pages or so for all the feedback you need... repeating it is worthless and it wastes our time and our breath |
Derath Ellecon
Washburne Holdings Situation: Normal
2301
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 21:13:00 -
[1509] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
While you may see the players here as avatars on a forum, please be aware that most, if not all are real people behind those faces, pretty much all of which feel passionately strong about the amazing universe CCP has created. Also many of which have far more experience living in wormholes than the very devs who proposed these ideas (I seem to recall CCP Fozzie stating at least once he has very little WH experience).
Most of these real players behind the avatars are not simply risk adverse, nor change adverse, but have a pretty good handle on the effects these changes have on WH dynamics and content creation. So it is not surprising to have the response seen in this thread when CCP asks for input and then seems to largely dismiss it.
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Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 21:16:00 -
[1510] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread.
I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out.
Falcon, I appreciate you posting here, I really do, but I need to reply to this.. You appreciate that SOME OF US are unhappy? Some of us? Really? Or maybe literally rather almost EVERYONE WHO LIVES IN WH SPACE MAYBE? Maybe you read that thread and figure out for yourself what the majority of people here want?
CCP Falcon wrote: If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction.
You cant possibly post that sentence with a straight face, can you?? We had 30+ pages on that very topic before it got locked, and now 70+ pages on this 'feedback' thread. Both threads together had 39 THOUSAND views. Are you saying that your 'development team' seriously now needs to be pointed in that direction. Do I need to conclude from your statement that the feedback you got so far in your dedicated feedback threads was not noticed by now by your development team??
Do you expect us now to repeat our arguments, and they WERE civil for the first dozens of pages, to post the same again in anothe thread? really?
CCP Falcon wrote: While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
Maybe you guys should then also be made aware that some of us lived in WH space for YEARS, and some of us put hundreds of hours into this game. Are you surprised we feel strong about this brainfart of epic proportions? Whats next, maybe we introduce a mass-based land distance on WH after warp? Would that not spice things up, and make WH space a lot more exciting when your caps land 13 clicks off the bookmark from now on, when you initiate warp to a wh? Im sure we would love that as well, lets give feedback, shall we?
How do you think we felt when we saw you guys on air on twitch, telling the rest of Eve how awesome your tweaks and new balances to WH space are, despite the fact that the vast majority of your WS-space players despise this new mechanic and gave you good reasons and feedback. You ignored us, and worst of all, we got ignored without receiving any convincing explanation of why CCP (or was it just Fozzie?) feels that these WH mechanics needed to be changed? Now you guys are really surprised that people are getting SERIOUSLY pissed off?
Really?
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
641
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 21:21:00 -
[1511] - Quote
Like the change so far, jumping with my T3 has gotten more convenient, no more spawning <2km from wh :) . |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
759
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 21:22:00 -
[1512] - Quote
Enthropic wrote: Or maybe literally rather almost EVERYONE WHO LIVES IN WH SPACE MAYBE? Maybe you read that thread and figure out for yourself what the majority of people here want?
Thing is sometimes what everyone wants isn't the best thing to actually do... in which case you'd expect some kind of explanation and reasoning to be presented with some solid counter points to the issues raised... instead we get silence (which given how well written some people's posts have been basically tells me there isn't a strong counter argument for want of any other explanation) a meaningless canned statement and the feature rammed through any way. If this is the way that things are going to be done I can't see that much of a future for myself with the game and its with a heavy heart I even consider that as a possibility. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
39
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 21:24:00 -
[1513] - Quote
So before this change i would jump in, bookmark, map, Keep at range, prop, cloak
Now it jump in, bookmark, map, cloak
Before I had a chance of getting caught, now its almost impossible to catch a covops. So Much Space |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
39
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 21:28:00 -
[1514] - Quote
Also the increase in WH's is FANTASTIC........Except for the fact the holes we are getting are dead and dying.....guess what its a ***** to roll for no good reason
Also found a farming fleet today......through a frig hole.........cant do jack **** against that in frigs So Much Space |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
114
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 21:36:00 -
[1515] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Also the increase in WH's is FANTASTIC........Except for the fact the holes we are getting are dead and dying.....guess what its a ***** to roll for no good reason
Also found a farming fleet today......through a frig hole.........cant do jack **** against that in frigs
Lol no **** ^^ |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
125
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:05:00 -
[1516] - Quote
Durzel wrote:... Whether people are upset that they can't just bear in peace while their corpies are asleep by critting/collapsing their incoming holes in safety is a secondary consideration - but let's not pretend this is about PvP and the precious risk-averse small corps who suddenly won't commit to fights they didn't commit to before anyway, or some nonsense about solo/small entities jumping caps with next to no support because carriers are magic force mulitpliers or some ****. The elephant in the room that people are secretly annoyed about with this change is that:
- People suddenly can't bear safely by closing up holes with just 1 or 2 accounts
- People can't have weak ass fights on wormholes safe in the knowledge they can just jump in and already be in jump range to jump back out again if they get shot too much
None of this has anything to do with meaningful PvP really, it's just another form of risk aversion that people aren't prepared to admit is what it is. People who are risk averse and wouldn't have warped to a wormhole to collapse it when you connected to them pre-Hyperion are going to continue not doing so, so nothing changes. edit: People talking about cynos throwing ships 10km+ out from the cyno are completely disregarding the fact that if you jump to a cyno in a cap where are you going to go from there if you get tackled? You can't jump back out like you can if you're sat on a wormhole, you can't even use a gate. Don't conflate the two completely different paradigms. Well said! "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:06:00 -
[1517] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated. stick it where the sun dont shine |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:21:00 -
[1518] - Quote
i wonder how long the above post of mine lasts before some ccp or isd deletes it because they want to be treated with oh so much respect but wont treat us the same. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:23:00 -
[1519] - Quote
AutumnWind1983 wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated. Pull your head out of your ass and go look at this thread and the unofficial thread for feedback about how the community changes. Beyond that, you have a ****** public reputation for lying to the family members of those laid off so remind us again why we should take your or any other CCP member at face value? All you do is lie, obfuscate, and ignore. QFT |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
764
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:37:00 -
[1520] - Quote
Think for a second - every time you've collapsed your static so as to be able to bear - how many of those times has there either been someone there to catch your would have been slowboating/bouncing collapsing capital or its been likely there might have been someone there to catch it?
Unfortunately I can't agree with Durzel - this has little to do with 1-2 people collapsing wormholes to bear - the times when this impacts that other than to unnecessarily increase the time to perform that are edge cases when you might happen to be open to another group that is both larger than you and also happens to be active at that time. It would be like focusing on that 1 time a "wonder" drug has cured a cancer patient and ignoring the 99 other patients in the trial that were killed by it and then using that drug as the standard way to treat cancer patients - in isolation it sounds great, widen the scope and its another story. For the sake of fringe cases a whole load of additional tedium is being added to the nominal case.
His second point is a bit more of a mixed one as that can be a bit of a weak scenario but also it can enable an entity to test the waters in a fight against someone they know on paper they can't possibly beat on an open field engagement with the potential for unexpected outcomes.
Regarding cynos - one use for them is to move capitals about either to drop them on a station or POS - should cynos be changed so that depending on mass your always dropped out of docking range? (Also jump freighters and how they are moved about). |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1128
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 22:57:00 -
[1521] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Think for a second - every time you've collapsed your static so as to be able to bear - how many of those times has there either been someone there to catch your would have been slowboating/bouncing collapsing capital or its been likely there might have been someone there to catch it? Unfortunately I can't agree with Durzel - this has little to do with 1-2 people collapsing wormholes to bear - the times when this impacts that other than to unnecessarily increase the time to perform that are edge cases when you might happen to be open to another group that is both larger than you and also happens to be active at that time. It would be like focusing on that 1 time a "wonder" drug has cured a cancer patient and ignoring the 99 other patients in the trial that were killed by it and then using that drug as the standard way to treat cancer patients - in isolation it sounds great, widen the scope and its another story. For the sake of fringe cases a whole load of additional tedium is being added to the nominal case. His second point is a bit more of a mixed one as that can be a bit of a weak scenario but also it can enable an entity to test the waters in a fight against someone they know on paper they can't possibly beat on an open field engagement with the potential for unexpected outcomes. Regarding cynos - one use for them is to move capitals about either to drop them on a station or POS - should cynos be changed so that depending on mass your always dropped out of docking range? (Also jump freighters and how they are moved about).
Wishing luck based mechanics on other areas of eve is sorely tempting considering how we have been treated, but introducing more of this horribly destructive and harmful mechanic, where you live or die due to the RNG, will do nothing for their game enjoyment, or player retention.
After all no one likes to see all their efforts destroyed just due to "bad luck" with no option to mitigate against it through skill training tactics or choices.
So in short it is bad enough in wormholes without it infecting new areas, like Ebola, one just does not wish it upon even your worst enemy. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
765
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 23:05:00 -
[1522] - Quote
Definitely wouldn't wish that kind of cyno change (none the least I move enough caps/blackops around lowsec as it is) but it is in many ways comparable to implementing that kind of change. |
Ned Black
Driders
79
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 23:08:00 -
[1523] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
Whats the point?
You guys did not listen when you had the feedback handed to you time and time again... why would you listen now?
Posting in this thread was a complete waste of time... I really can't be arsed wasting my time a second time. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3706
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 23:10:00 -
[1524] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote: If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. what the actual fk mate? this IS the feedback thread and the feedback is the same as it has been since the second this change was announced: WE HATE IT. do you guys have a number of threads we need to copy and paste our distaste into before you listen? if so, please tell us what it is.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Naglerr
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 23:30:00 -
[1525] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
Meh, I'll just make sure my subscriptions aren't set to auto-renew instead. You know what you need to do. |
Glyndi
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
237
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 23:48:00 -
[1526] - Quote
Its Obama-care all over again. "Oh you dont want this? Too bad, we know whats best for you."
Thanks Obama!! |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 23:52:00 -
[1527] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:So before this change i would jump in, bookmark, map, Keep at range, prop, cloak
Now it jump in, bookmark, map, cloak
Before I had a chance of getting caught, now its almost impossible to catch a covops.
Yup thats a great thing about teh change. Also we rolled our static last night and it wasnt too much extra trouble. Just had to bounce the orca to a tac... Easy Peezy!
Also yeah the extra WHs are great. WHs are going to be great PVP grounds! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
531
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 23:54:00 -
[1528] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated. I would call you many things but that would just get me banned right.
I will call you one thing.
Liar.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2014.08.26 23:56:00 -
[1529] - Quote
Naglerr wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated. Meh, I'll just make sure my subscriptions aren't set to auto-renew instead. You know what you need to do.
LOL Dont listen to trolls CCP! The changes are awesome and just the shake up that wormhole space needs, a couple of little bugs but meh... Nothing we cant deal with though... KEEP UP THE GREAT WORK GUYS! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:01:00 -
[1530] - Quote
Glyndi wrote:Its Obama-care all over again. "Oh you dont want this? Too bad, we know whats best for you."
Thanks Obama!!
I would pay money to give that more + likes. |
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Beliar Gray
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:27:00 -
[1531] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
129
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:29:00 -
[1532] - Quote
calaretu wrote: Eh. Kite? Snipe? Something else creative? I am sure you guys have more doctrines than pure brawling. The killmail you link is exactly why this change is a good thing. Also have scouts so you know what you jump into so you dont jump a vigi into a t3 sitting and waiting.
I think we have a common ground here: I would love to have a broader spectrum of tactical options and a WH mechanic that supports them. However, I do not agree that THIS change adds any of this.
In this regard someone in this thread made a damn good proposition: Make the spawn distant directly proportional to the speed (and maybe inversely proportional to the mass) upon entering. Maybe also take the entry vector into account.
This certainly has some flaws as well that need to be addressed, but this would truly add something new without destroying the perfectly fine old ways of doing things. It is also exciting because FCs can get creative and come up with doctrines and tactics exploiting these mechanic and combining it with the "old" game of mass and polarization.
Bottom line is: emergent behavior can only spark if the players are able to control their surroundings and if the surroundings are sufficient complex. The change introduced in this patch does the opposite: eliminating tactical options and introducing random deaths. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:29:00 -
[1533] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated. I would call you many things but that would just get me banned right. I will call you one thing. Liar. Edit: this isn't a personal attack, just stating a fact. http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/22td7a/storm_on_the_horizon_wod_appears_to_be_cancelled/cgq9los just to make sure everyone knows what ccp falcon thinks of being honest |
Ben Li
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:29:00 -
[1534] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. |
Velia Canus
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:32:00 -
[1535] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. |
Pandorath
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:33:00 -
[1536] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. |
Naglerr
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:34:00 -
[1537] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:36:00 -
[1538] - Quote
copy pasting the same thing using your alts doesn't help anything |
Pandorath
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:39:00 -
[1539] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:copy pasting the same thing using your alts doesn't help anything I'm trying to start something. The last one already isn't my alt.
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. Copy paste it if you agree, lets see the count. |
Spryt3
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:41:00 -
[1540] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. |
|
Senji Vuran
Revenant Tactical
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:44:00 -
[1541] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
532
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:47:00 -
[1542] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Kelaian Stareine
Love Squad Pasta Syndicate
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:49:00 -
[1543] - Quote
As someone who occasionally goes into a WH to die horribly I don't really see the point of the changes. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:53:00 -
[1544] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:copy pasting the same thing using your alts doesn't help anything
LOL free intel! We all know his alts now... Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
271
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:55:00 -
[1545] - Quote
Pandorath wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote:copy pasting the same thing using your alts doesn't help anything I'm trying to start something. The last one already isn't my alt. I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. Copy paste it if you agree, lets see the count.
Use your main, as a toon in an NPC Corp means nothing other than just another troll... Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 00:55:00 -
[1546] - Quote
I don't like this change. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
532
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:08:00 -
[1547] - Quote
Quote:It'll be "oh, it's Hard Knocks, everyone afk because we can't take that fight."
Your mistake here is that there's some level of risk in jumping a capital through a wormhole in the proposed system. You're wrong. Jumping a capital into any decent group's home system whilst they have any players online would mean that you are going to lose that capital. Not possibly, not maybe, but definitely.
The time it takes for you to get an interceptor to a ping to let the dread warp back to a hole is enough time for them to secure hole control, which is all it takes for your dread to be dead in the water.
We all have ping or alert systems, and "cap tackled" gets a response. Generally fast, generally overwhelming and generally expensive for you.
The proposed system is not "providing risk", it's ensuring that the only people that use dreadnoughts to collapse holes away from fights that they can't take because they lack numbers are now unable to do so. The end result of that change isn't "more risk" it's "less content", because people will just AFK and POS spin all day when they roll into a bigger fish until they do have the much larger gang that is now required to safely collapse.
And god forbid that you try to take a nullsec fight with your 15 T3s and a Triage Archon against their 80 man cruiser gang. You're now guranteed to have that Archon dropped on, because it's 30km from safety and in their space. Whereas before you had some chance of backing away from the nullsec/losec cyno (which brings more caps than you ever could get through a wormhole) when they decided to try to blap you, you're now racing against time: you have to complete the fight and get your Archon back into the hole before they type "Archon tackled 30km from wormhole in [system]" in their intel channel.
This system benefits larger groups of people over smaller groups of people for no apparent reason, whether it's nullsec over wormsec, or larger wormsec entities over smaller wormsec entities.
What wormholes need isn't changes to fundamental mechanics that are, for the most part, fine. We need reasons for smaller groups to get involved, a consistent difficulty ladder from C1-C6 that reflects in the income earnt, maybe even buffs to C6 income so that they're worth the extra hassle. We need small-mid sized fish to swim alongside the groups that can consistently bring 30-40+ ships to every fight.
Wormspace needs incentives to live in it, not barriers to surviving in it.
I think this captures it nicely.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3708
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:12:00 -
[1548] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
BeanBagKing
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
302
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:16:00 -
[1549] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:It seems like things have gotten a bit out of hand in this thread. I can fully appreciated that some of you are unhappy with the changes that have gone out. If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. Please don't make personal attacks on eachother, or employees of CCP, otherwise you'll lose the ability to post on the forums, and neither us nor you want it to come to that. While you may see our development staff as avatars on a forum, please be aware that there are in fact people behind these faces, and abuse of CCP and our volunteers will not be tolerated.
Fair enough, you've had your (100+ combined pages) of feedback, do what you must...
Quote:"Currently we are seeing _very predictable feedback_ on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. Innovation takes time to set in and the predictable reaction is always to resist change." |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
46
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:25:00 -
[1550] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do many many wormholers. Also I was so fool to set subscription to auto-pay. I innocently wanted to support CCP. When all they want to support is CFC. Well. Mistake solved. Will pay for accounts with ingame plex from now on. And let the other ones deactivate. 10 toons tbh. I don't see where wspace is gonna have a future anyway. .. Unless it's a blob future. |
|
Naglerr
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:29:00 -
[1551] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:Fair enough, you've had your (100+ combined pages) of feedback, do what you must... Quote:"Currently we are seeing _very predictable feedback_ on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. Innovation takes time to set in and the predictable reaction is always to resist change."
Is there a link to the OP for your quote BeanBagKing? I'd like to believe that better words were chosen in response to this issue than what you quoted. |
BeanBagKing
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
302
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:38:00 -
[1552] - Quote
Naglerr wrote:BeanBagKing wrote:Fair enough, you've had your (100+ combined pages) of feedback, do what you must... Quote:"Currently we are seeing _very predictable feedback_ on what we are doing. Having the perspective of having done this for a decade, I can tell you that this is one of the moments where we look at what our players do and less of what they say. Innovation takes time to set in and the predictable reaction is always to resist change." Is there a link to the OP for your quote BeanBagKing? I'd like to believe that better words were chosen in response to this issue than what you quoted.
The quote is from CCP Hilmar back in 2011 in a leaked email regarding "monoclegate". The playerbase was angry with the way the way that expansion was handled (Incarna I believe), the features in it, and were very vocal about it. CCP sent an internal mail that basically said we know what we're doing, don't listen to the players, the metrics will speak for themselves. When they players saw the email, they rioted outside Jita (thus the monument, if you look at the description), the actions did indeed speak for themselves.
Now, I don't think this is nearly as big of a deal, but I quoted it for the same reason. I believe you have the vast majority of the players reacting negatively to this change, and quite a few explaining why. This includes the wormhole CSM. However, CCP is shrugging off all the comments and going ahead with the change.
Here is a very quick google that, I believe, is the full original mail. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1537708 |
Pah Cova
Made in Portugal S.A.
2
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:48:00 -
[1553] - Quote
Well just my 2 cts and i-¦m not an wormholer.
Few days before this release I saw small corps leaving their wormhole, my mates saw that too in other wormholes. With this ranges it is impossible for small corps residents to live where they used too. More, with more wormholes respawn and the new one figate size wich is impossible to close, small corps aren-¦t do anything on there.
So now what you CCP left for small corps in wormholes? Let me guess, you left for them one hand full of nothing.
All the wormholes are now like swiss cheese, we like cheese but...
Why didnt you give them moons to mine? They dont deserve it? Why didnt you give them anomalies respawn like at least in hs sec and low sec? Why some of them have to wait days for one sig ou two? The wormholes are not dangerous on your point of view?
This was like the previous expansion and the industry, i see guys selling yons of minning chars, because you CCP broke their hability to refine, and BTW tons of structures on a pos and pay tons of isks for teams even if you manufacture in your pos, lol i love that part, thats why i left industry.
When are you CCP admit that you are only interested on destruction and you dont care about the rest of the eve professions that you-¦ve created once? I understand that changes are needed, but you are pushing this to far. One day when you guys wake up, theres only pvpeers on eve and that is the day when you going to say: Thanks god those miners pve guys and industry guys have leaved us alone forever, they was a pain in the ass. Now the guys that left can really fight, we should reduce the game map to 1/4 so they can reach the red side quickly. |
Naglerr
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:52:00 -
[1554] - Quote
Thanks for the post BeanBagKing. I was around for the monoclegate thing and actually shot the Jita monument for a while. I apparently did not see/don't remember that response though. It's somewhat sad that I assumed it applied to the current situation. The inability of CCP to respond to the ample feedback already provided on this issue just led me to assume we'd already gotten to the stage where they just tell us to deal with it because it isn't changing. |
IVAN Twistead
Yanomami's Space Pilots Collateral Damage.
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 01:57:00 -
[1555] - Quote
Pods go 8-9km away from whs, is this intended? 32 t mass, shouldn't that be closer?? |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
39
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 02:34:00 -
[1556] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:CCP Falcon wrote: If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. what the actual fk mate? this IS the feedback thread and the feedback is the same as it has been since the second this change was announced: WE HATE IT. do you guys have a number of threads we need to copy and paste our distaste into before you listen? if so, please tell us what it is.
I almost fell out my chair laughing |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 04:26:00 -
[1557] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Jack Miton wrote:CCP Falcon wrote: If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. what the actual fk mate? this IS the feedback thread and the feedback is the same as it has been since the second this change was announced: WE HATE IT. do you guys have a number of threads we need to copy and paste our distaste into before you listen? if so, please tell us what it is. I almost fell out my chair laughing
It was a clear example of a copy and paste script that they were given. CCP Falcon did not read anything he was just told to make a post with that script so he did it. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 05:03:00 -
[1558] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Kirasten wrote:Jack Miton wrote:CCP Falcon wrote: If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. what the actual fk mate? this IS the feedback thread and the feedback is the same as it has been since the second this change was announced: WE HATE IT. do you guys have a number of threads we need to copy and paste our distaste into before you listen? if so, please tell us what it is. I almost fell out my chair laughing It was a clear example of a copy and paste script that they were given. CCP Falcon did not read anything he was just told to make a post with that script so he did it. Source for that info? Did someone from ccp confirm this or are you just assuming it? |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
165
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 05:14:00 -
[1559] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:calaretu wrote: Eh. Kite? Snipe? Something else creative? I am sure you guys have more doctrines than pure brawling. The killmail you link is exactly why this change is a good thing. Also have scouts so you know what you jump into so you dont jump a vigi into a t3 sitting and waiting.
I think we have a common ground here: I would love to have a broader spectrum of tactical options and a WH mechanic that supports them. However, I do not agree that THIS change adds any of this. In this regard someone in this thread made a damn good proposition: Make the spawn distant directly proportional to the speed (and maybe inversely proportional to the mass) upon entering. Maybe also take the entry vector into account. This certainly has some flaws as well that need to be addressed, but this would truly add something new without destroying the perfectly fine old ways of doing things. It is also exciting because FCs can get creative and come up with doctrines and tactics exploiting these mechanic and combining it with the "old" game of mass and polarization. Bottom line is: emergent behavior can only spark if the players are able to control their surroundings and if the surroundings are sufficient complex. The change introduced in this patch does the opposite: eliminating tactical options and introducing random deaths.
Yes. There are a lot of ways this change could have been done better. Personally I would like to see direction affect the rng ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 05:19:00 -
[1560] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Kirasten wrote:Jack Miton wrote:CCP Falcon wrote: If you feel strongly about these changes, then give civil and concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread, and I'll point the development team in that direction. what the actual fk mate? this IS the feedback thread and the feedback is the same as it has been since the second this change was announced: WE HATE IT. do you guys have a number of threads we need to copy and paste our distaste into before you listen? if so, please tell us what it is. I almost fell out my chair laughing It was a clear example of a copy and paste script that they were given. CCP Falcon did not read anything he was just told to make a post with that script so he did it. Source for that info? Did someone from ccp confirm this or are you just assuming it?
Obviously CCP confirmed it, they sent me a pre-made script about it. |
|
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1575
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 05:45:00 -
[1561] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers.
J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
XGADuke
Dracos Dozen
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 05:46:00 -
[1562] - Quote
Hey guys, I would just like to post my feedback on this change...
I've been living in Wormholes for a few months now and I love it. The corp I'm part of has a very small footprint in terms of active players, across the EU and US timezones. During the week, the EU TZ has very few players online, normally between 3 to 6. Most of our PvP engagements happen during the week, where we use an Orca and battleships to roll the hole and look for pew.
So I rolled our static last night, with these new changes. First jump through, 9km's off of the hole, second and third pass, 13kms.
It took an average of 2 mins to get back to the hole to roll again.
Now, in a hostile wormhole, I can totally see this as a conflict driver, "Hey look there is an Orca / Battleship miles off the hole, lets go kill it!". two things could then happen.
1) Orca / BS kill. yay!!! \o/ 2) Orca/ BS is bait and a small skirmish erupts. Good times are had people feel good. yay!!! \o/
This is all fine and well, however lets say the wormhole is empty, the residents are offline or not interested. We just need to roll again right? It now takes AGES to roll the hole.
Last weekend, as a corp we spent 3 hours rolling the wormhole looking for pew. In that time we opened and scanned +- 15 different wormholes. And in that time, all we got was a MTU :(
With this mass based spawn distance, 3 hours of hole rolling is going to equate to much less wormholes scanned, probably between 5 and 7. The members in our corp are going to get bored and log off.
I know these numbers might seem low to some other players, but remember, small corp, small footprint. Hell we very rarely have enough pilots online to fill a squad.
Anyway, just my two cents... |
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
496
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 05:57:00 -
[1563] - Quote
rolled 2 empty statics in a speedy nidhoggur carrier just now.
Not too bad. Landed 13-16 out, with MWD and a basic speedy fit, 275 m/s.
Rolled in 60 seconds.
Of course rolling with hostiles is going to get interesting. But in the end, I predict what will happen is if a weaker side cannot contest and blue-balls the stronger side, the stronger side will roll the hole themselves. Arrangements can be made, as they say. |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:02:00 -
[1564] - Quote
LUMINOUS SPIRIT wrote:rolled 2 empty statics in a speedy nidhoggur carrier just now.
Not too bad. Landed 13-16 out, with MWD and a basic speedy fit, 275 m/s.
Rolled in 60 seconds.
Of course rolling with hostiles is going to get interesting. But in the end, I predict what will happen is if a weaker side cannot contest and blue-balls the stronger side, the stronger side will roll the hole themselves. Arrangements can be made, as they say.
Side A) has 5 capital pilots and 20 subcaps online. Side B) has 5 capitals and 20 subcaps online.
Who is going to jump over and for what reason? A) the fight B) to roll the hole. The answer is no one, we all just sit and orbit our pos for the next 24 hours.
Thanks Obama... |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2122
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:10:00 -
[1565] - Quote
I like this change, and so do 95% of non wormholers.
We look forward to invading your space as you cower and cry. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:11:00 -
[1566] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:I like this change, and so do 95% of non wormholers.
We look forward to invading your space as you cower and cry.
This change makes it even harder for you to do that so.... you're dumb... |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2122
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:14:00 -
[1567] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:I like this change, and so do 95% of non wormholers.
We look forward to invading your space as you cower and cry. This change makes it even harder for you to do that so.... you're dumb...
No it hasn't, but I'm not an instant gratification crybaby, I can roll with the punches, and have longterm plans. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:19:00 -
[1568] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:I like this change, and so do 95% of non wormholers.
We look forward to invading your space as you cower and cry. This change makes it even harder for you to do that so.... you're dumb... No it hasn't, but I'm not an instant gratification crybaby, I can roll with the punches, and have longterm plans.
Good for you --rolls eyes--
Anyway... |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3718
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:24:00 -
[1569] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:I like this change, and so do 95% of non wormholers. We look forward to invading your space as you cower and cry. This change makes it even harder for you to do that so.... you're dumb... No it hasn't, but I'm not an instant gratification crybaby, I can roll with the punches, and have longterm plans. OH NO, NOT THE DREADED IMPERIAL ACADEMY!!!! Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:32:00 -
[1570] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Sentamon wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:I like this change, and so do 95% of non wormholers. We look forward to invading your space as you cower and cry. This change makes it even harder for you to do that so.... you're dumb... No it hasn't, but I'm not an instant gratification crybaby, I can roll with the punches, and have longterm plans. OH NO, NOT THE DREADED IMPERIAL ACADEMY!!!!
careful, he has killed a mackinaw. http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=23594189 |
|
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2122
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:34:00 -
[1571] - Quote
So many tears, so little space to store them all. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:36:00 -
[1572] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:So many tears, so little space to store them all.
So much trolling, so little craps given. |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
82
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:40:00 -
[1573] - Quote
IVAN Twistead wrote:Pods go 8-9km away from whs, is this intended? 32 t mass, shouldn't that be closer??
So, a few weeks ago everybody was dancing happily and in disbelieve that CCP was going to do positive changes to wormholes. Then we saw the massjumpdistance. We gave clear feedback that we didn-¦t want gates. And this quote is the perfect example of how ****** up this change is. About 40 pages ago I posted how horrible this specifc thing was and why Fricking gatemechanics are bad without stations and cynos but with masslimitaions. Yet here we are. No discussion at all, just the "we are very excited about...." like every patch.
There was never any addressing of the issues pointed out, just the good old "we are watching your feedback (but we are right and you are wrong)". Good job sticking to your guns of taking a dump on wormholers every few months. You remember how stunning twosteps election to the CSM was at that time. Then even almost being chairman and getting two people in against the huge nullblobbnumbers?
I wouldn-¦t be surprised if corbexx was the last wormhole CSM because obviously our feedback and actions do not matter for CCP anyways.
There were hundreds of pages about better suggestions and tweeks dating back years. If the problem was c5/6 rolling, many interesting things out there how to make this better. And that was without even asking for suggestions on that topic. Nope, we get gates because CCP.
And fat chance of CCP going back and reversing or at least making those changes sufferable. How often has that happened? But now CCP has a new releasescedule and is making small changes over time instead of big leaps without a safety net.
Never again ask for feedback or discussion since it is just a farce. |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 06:46:00 -
[1574] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:IVAN Twistead wrote:Pods go 8-9km away from whs, is this intended? 32 t mass, shouldn't that be closer?? So, a few weeks ago everybody was dancing happily and in disbelieve that CCP was going to do positive changes to wormholes. Then we saw the massjumpdistance. We gave clear feedback that we didn-¦t want gates. And this quote is the perfect example of how ****** up this change is. About 40 pages ago I posted how horrible this specifc thing was and why Fricking gatemechanics are bad without stations and cynos but with masslimitaions. Yet here we are. No discussion at all, just the "we are very excited about...." like every patch. There was never any addressing of the issues pointed out, just the good old "we are watching your feedback (but we are right and you are wrong)". Good job sticking to your guns of taking a dump on wormholers every few months. You remember how stunning twosteps election to the CSM was at that time. Then even almost being chairman and getting two people in against the huge nullblobbnumbers? I wouldn-¦t be surprised if corbexx was the last wormhole CSM because obviously our feedback and actions do not matter for CCP anyways.There were hundreds of pages about better suggestions and tweeks dating back years. If the problem was c5/6 rolling, many interesting things out there how to make this better. And that was without even asking for suggestions on that topic. Nope, we get gates because CCP. And fat chance of CCP going back and reversing or at least making those changes sufferable. How often has that happened? But now CCP has a new releasescedule and is making small changes over time instead of big leaps without a safety net. Never again ask for feedback or discussion since it is just a farce.
^ This...
Only thing I would add is don't ask us for feedback and after weeks of ignoring us sit there and tell US we are being rude and disrespectful just because we are pissed you do not discuss the matter with us. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 07:00:00 -
[1575] - Quote
Well the changes went live, unadulterated, in all their gristly horror. I unsubbed 10 accounts today, citing this one change as the reason. Let see if any of that matters before the time remaining runs out. CCP refuses to listen to us as players. Lets see how much they listen to their accountants. |
dirtydebbs
the wreking crew
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 07:06:00 -
[1576] - Quote
Not sure how everyone else's spawning was last night but according to the unknown blog A covert ops should spawn 0-5.5km from the wh but me and two other corpys last night consistently spawnd From 7.5km+ every wh?
If the mass based is that far off then I'd hate to jumping caps about as that's added a minimum of 2+km and that could very much Patentionaly mean your defo out of rep range from a triage carrier |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
48
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 07:11:00 -
[1577] - Quote
A lesson my father taught me by example comes to mind.
Once upon a time I lived on a farm. We had dealt with a certain equipment dealer for many years. Business relationships in the rural agriculture community are based on trust far more than other areas of business. You didn't even think about getting competing bids on things, because you didn't have to.
One day my father sent me to a competing dealer that was 15 miles farther away. I was confused and asked why.
He said " I'm not happy with the last few deals for dealer A. Complaining while continuing to spend your money is not nearly as effective as voting with your money by TAKING IT SOMEWHERE ELSE"
Within two months we had personal visits from two salesman, the junior partner at the first dealer, then the senior partner. Who all asked, " We haven't seen you in a while, what can we do to fix that?"
Stashing a plex on four accounts. Letting the timer tick down.
No you can't have my stuff. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
69
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 07:21:00 -
[1578] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote:A lesson my father taught me by example comes to mind.
Once upon a time I lived on a farm. We had dealt with a certain equipment dealer for many years. Business relationships in the rural agriculture community are based on trust far more than other areas of business. You didn't even think about getting competing bids on things, because you didn't have to.
One day my father sent me to a competing dealer that was 15 miles farther away. I was confused and asked why.
He said " I'm not happy with the last few deals for dealer A. Complaining while continuing to spend your money is not nearly as effective as voting with your money by TAKING IT SOMEWHERE ELSE"
Within two months we had personal visits from two salesman, the junior partner at the first dealer, then the senior partner. Who all asked, " We haven't seen you in a while, what can we do to fix that?"
Stashing a plex on four accounts. Letting the timer tick down.
No you can't have my stuff. All of a sudden my 6b of ISK makes more sense as a few PLEX in reserve as the excrement strikes the air recirculation mechanisms. I suspect that CCP may learn the error of their ways before I have to pay a single cent to them. Who know, PLEX prices of 800m may feel like a bargain in the coming months. |
japanese mafia
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 07:50:00 -
[1579] - Quote
I stayed quiet on this for awhile, because I wanted to see how it played out.
Several of my characters live in a wormhole. We're a medium-sized corp, although we have almost 100 members, that many are never online. Sometimes we can field 45 members, but usually it's more like 6-10 at a time and at off hours it's only 2-4.
When we have more than 20-25 online, we will roll for connections, otherwise, 3 or 4 people will poke into the static, someone else will be scanning around. Sometimes a person will solo a connected site, or make a run to k-space.
Normally, we would roll into very uninteresting, empty, boring chains with no PvP or PvE options maybe 3 out of 4 times. This kind of rolling happens most often when there are only 3-4 people online, because that is when there are the least options for content. The people who work in off-hours have learned ways to roll the holes for content, to avoid needing to sit idle all day waiting for larger gangs to come help them.
Here is how I saw today:
1) We scanned down our static. There were frigate holes, which prevented the 2 people online from doing any sites, or really anything at all. The hole wasn't very good, but they couldn't safely roll.
They logged off, bored.
2) A larger group came online later in the day. The same awful hole was up, however there was a few active T3s in the chain, so cap pilots didn't want to roll. Instead of rolling and having content, we formed up 10 battleships and rolled the hole. Due to luck, it took 6 HIC runs to close. 25 minutes of POS spinning later, we got a new static. Our next hole was really awful. No content, few connections. We took another 20 minutes to roll that one and scan down the next chain.
90 minutes of POS spinning for most of our pilots, they logged off, bored.
3) We discussed if our normal Friday rage rolling would happen. We cannot afford to overcommit one of our few caps to a fight without an escape plan, so it seems unlikely we will roll for content on Friday.
Bored members made plans other than the normal Eve activities for Friday.
4) With so many people logged off, we considered bringing out PvE ships into the chain, but it was a pretty bad chain. There was no PvP to be found (4 nearest holes were all Russian, and two of them were EoL). We didn't have numbers to support caps, and everyone was tired of rolling in battleships.
More people logged off, bored.
5) Now there were too few people online to roll in a reasonable amount of time. Now, I'm looking at our chain, which is boring as hell, connected to a bunch of offline Russians and some middle-of-nowhere Lowsec that's sitting EoL. A few guys went for a frigate roam 15 jumps to nullsec, but some of us have a 500m pod, and roaming in a frigate without any facilities for jump clones is stupid (why do we get shafted here, too?).
6) Our chain, which normally changes 12-14 times per day and is active with PvE and PvP gangs hasn't changed in 12 hours and is a bunch of random nullsec groups in frigates and a whole lot of offline Russians and EOL holes that nobody wants to roll. I don't think this is the intended consequence of this change.
I'm logging off, bored.
Bored, and a tiny bit disappointed. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
643
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 07:56:00 -
[1580] - Quote
I like this change and so do most likely more than 5% of all wormholers.
XGADuke wrote:This is all fine and well, however lets say the wormhole is empty, the residents are offline or not interested. We just need to roll again right? Spotted your mistake there. With the vast number of holes now everywhere, there are so many connections in virtually every chain that you have a higher chance to find an active system by simply scanning and scouting than by rolling your static.
And, very importantly, the new way scales much better with corp size: Only a few people can actively roll, but a lot of people can spread out and explore a chain.
Ok, so you didn't find anything. Finding active systems has been hard for a long time now. But this change didn't make it harder.
The new level of interconnectedness, combined with how fast and easy scanning is nowadays, makes rolling basically obsolete. All the crybabies here are just either too stuck in their old crusty ways or their real concern is that their safe farming is now also obsolete. . |
|
japanese mafia
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 08:24:00 -
[1581] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:I like this change and so do most likely more than 5% of all wormholers. XGADuke wrote:This is all fine and well, however lets say the wormhole is empty, the residents are offline or not interested. We just need to roll again right? Spotted your mistake there. With the vast number of holes now everywhere, there are so many connections in virtually every chain that you have a higher chance to find an active system by simply scanning and scouting than by rolling your static. And, very importantly, the new way scales much better with corp size: Only a few people can actively roll, but a lot of people can spread out and explore a chain. Ok, so you didn't find anything. Finding active systems has been hard for a long time now. But this change didn't make it harder. The new level of interconnectedness, combined with how fast and easy scanning is nowadays, makes rolling basically obsolete. All the crybabies here are just either too stuck in their old crusty ways or their real concern is that their safe farming is now also obsolete.
You do realize that there are combat sites that automatically respawn in every other class of system? In Nullsec, there are ALWAYS combat sites. You can chain belts and chain belts and roll combat sites until you bleed guristas.
Most people also have access to Jump clones. And markets. And they can actually LEAVE if their corp is not active.
In W-Space, combat sites go away and they do not respawn, sometimes for weeks. Not being able to roll for isk will *obliterate* W-Space corps who do not have the manpower to roll to new statics. There are no "military upgrades" or "industry upgrades". That **** doesn't exist.
Our home hole, right now, has 1 site. We are holding it for cap escalations (which we run with a maximum of 10 pilots). That means ~45 people have nowhere to make isk.
Now, I'm sure during the evening sometime tomorrow, there will be a gang of 6+ people online who will roll it.
But for the next 18 hours, we will have ~20 people log in, find there are only 2-3 others online and there is nowhere to do anything useful, and either do the insane solo PVP into a C6 wormhole with 1b in implants, or log off.
You clearly don't understand the economics of W-Space, at least as it is now.
I feel like this will bleed out all the small corps. The big ones will probably adapt, but even with 30-40 members, corps will struggle and lose membership.
I don't know if you're aware, but in order to make 300m running sites for 2 hours, BEFORE this patch, a group of 4 people had 1-2 hours of logistical crap (rolling, scanning, mapping, scouting) BEFORE they could even field PvE ships. Did you really have this bullshit idea that it was just a stroll in the park and risk-free isk with minimal effort? |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
643
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 08:42:00 -
[1582] - Quote
But that is exactly the problem: 50+ people herding together for safety. Made possible by the large income provided by regenerating cap escalations and easily rolled statics. Many wormholers have bemoaned this concentration of players in ever-larger corps for a long time. Maybe now is finally the time to downsize again and become more mobile.
As someone in the smallest corp possible (currently solo), I don't feel the new environment threatens me. Sure, solo bearing is very dangerous now, but I don't expect I should be allowed to solo-bear in peace in an environment that is supposed to be the most dangerous in EVE. CCP let me farm C4s in absolute safety for way too long already and I won't miss it. For solo hunting the changes are not negative; and if corps become smaller and more numerous again in the future, I very much expect it will be good for my playstyle in the longer term. . |
XGADuke
Dracos Dozen
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 08:45:00 -
[1583] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:I like this change and so do most likely more than 5% of all wormholers. XGADuke wrote:This is all fine and well, however lets say the wormhole is empty, the residents are offline or not interested. We just need to roll again right? Spotted your mistake there. With the vast number of holes now everywhere, there are so many connections in virtually every chain that you have a higher chance to find an active system by simply scanning and scouting than by rolling your static. And, very importantly, the new way scales much better with corp size: Only a few people can actively roll, but a lot of people can spread out and explore a chain. Ok, so you didn't find anything. Finding active systems has been hard for a long time now. But this change didn't make it harder. The new level of interconnectedness, combined with how fast and easy scanning is nowadays, makes rolling basically obsolete. All the crybabies here are just either too stuck in their old crusty ways or their real concern is that their safe farming is now also obsolete.
I agree that finding active systems hasn't been easy, however it's definitely harder now. Time is everything in this game.
Look at japanese mafia's post: japanese mafia wrote: More people logged off, bored. This is what happens when it takes too long to roll the hole. People are impatient by nature, they want instant gratification. While you can scan down your chain into oblivion to find something to do, the deeper you scan, the more jumps you have to do when you reship or bring the rest of your fleet with you. Rolling your static, and any other connections for that matter, not only gave you the option to cherry pick your content, it also gave you the option to reship to something more appropriate for the content you've found, relatively quickly I might add. Mission runners and the like can choose when they want to accept a mission or not, haulers can choose to bypass a system with large amounts of activity. In Null Sec, the "blob" can choose when to engage another "blob" or retreat.
Intended or not, wormholers have been able to find stuff to do by rolling holes. Making it more difficult to do forces smaller groups to re-evaluate the value of being in wormholes. Making more wormhole connections doesn't fix the problem. Small groups cannot cover all of the bases if there are too many active connections. In the Risk vs Reward game, we have to choose what level of risk is acceptable to us. making it so that small groups can't handle the risk, just plain sucks. It's like poring cement into my sandbox :(
Adapt or leave some might say. Is that the right answer? Join a bigger group to mitigate the risk? Yes, but if the group gets too large, bye-bye small gang PvP.
I personally don't want that. I like small skirmishes, not 5 vs 20...
|
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
246
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 08:53:00 -
[1584] - Quote
WH's act roughly like gates now?
Welcome to the rest of the universe. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
101
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 09:07:00 -
[1585] - Quote
I like to see the statistics of player activity of the last 2-4 weeks now because what I expect to see is much less activity. At least this would match my experience scouting our chains the last weeks. Less and less activity. As well saw yesterday a C4 or C5 corp leaving and let them go w/o attacking. Fair enough with this change I think.
@CCP Falcon: everybody here stating that constructive feedback was given in a good way already before the patch is right. You did not reply. Bad comunication. Even now you kept everything as planed you did not explain why you think that is good. Of course everybody understands that as ignorance.
I don't like this change because it made and will make wormholes less interesting. Now I can easily camp a static hi and kill every incoming ship and pod with ease. Especially new players will be affacted in a bad way.
Smaller groups are ****** now as well like I stated in a constructive way before.
Industry change were bad, but with some good changes at least. But I dropped industry for several reasons and so do others I know. But this change will make WH life even worse. Risk increases, but no rewards are given. And for rewards I don't count ISK, but player activity. Check your statistics and I am sure my experience / assumption is correct. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
232
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 09:15:00 -
[1586] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:WH's act roughly like gates now?
Welcome to the rest of the universe. Apart from local of course, oh and cynos, infinate combat sites, belts, clones, jump clones, jump bridges, stations and outposts, markets, infinate mass on your gates, 100 man blobs, sov, supers...
|
Moo Moocow
Hard Knocks Inc.
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 09:17:00 -
[1587] - Quote
I don't like this change and neither do 95%+ of wormholers. |
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 09:18:00 -
[1588] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:But that is exactly the problem: 50+ people herding together for safety. Made possible by the large income provided by regenerating cap escalations and easily rolled statics. Many wormholers have bemoaned this concentration of players in ever-larger corps for a long time. Maybe now is finally the time to downsize again and become more mobile.
As someone in the smallest corp possible (currently solo), I don't feel the new environment threatens me. Sure, solo bearing is very dangerous now, but I don't expect I should be allowed to solo-bear in peace in an environment that is supposed to be the most dangerous in EVE. CCP let me farm C4s in absolute safety for way too long already and I won't miss it. For solo hunting the changes are not negative; and if corps become smaller and more numerous again in the future, I very much expect it will be good for my playstyle in the longer term.
You are completly illogical.
We told you that it is harder for small/mid corp to find content and to farm. So people are ??? Leaving !
How the fu... do you expect more small corp in wh ?
I think you are not a real wormholer. You explore wspace, ok but you dont live there. You don't make your isk here.
If you wanna find content in wspace, we need small/mid corp living there.
This patch is just geting this impossible. |
|
CCP Falcon
8422
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 09:29:00 -
[1589] - Quote
Okay, so I came in a little more gently last time, because I know that there's quite a few people who don't like this particular change.
A large proportion of our development staff also play the game, myself included. At times, I don't agree with changes that are being made. However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit.
This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread.
If you guys want to keep it here, feel free to do so, but don't complain if feedback gets removed because it's packed in with ranting and personal attacks.
So, simple instruction for you guys out of your reaction to my previous post:
Here are the forum rules. Follow them, or scroll down and read what happens when you break them. It's that simple.
We have no problem with you guys voicing your concerns. In fact, I did the same for a decade as a player when I felt CCP had done something wrong. We do however have issues with people breaking the forum rules.
Carry on discussing this. I'll point people here, and look at collecting feedback to send to development. However, don't break the forum rules.
CCP Falcon || Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon
Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3 |
|
Galdur Trudaihnel
United System's Commonwealth
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 09:44:00 -
[1590] - Quote
GIVE THIS THREAD SOME REAL EXPOSURE !!!!!! CCP FALCON WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE SUB THREADS, THREATEN US, AND PLAY OTHER SILLY GAMES WITH US UNTIL IT WE ARE DROWNED OUT
The gaming press loves to write articles on what happens when players come together in EVE. If CCP believe the horrible implementation and management of this issue is acceptable, I urge anyone with connections to the press, gaming review sites, blogs, etc to use this thread as a great example of how 'not' to deal with your customers and how not to release an expansion/update.
This change is poor
The way you have handled this role out is poor
The way you have dealt with your customers is poor
The fact you have not created anything new for this expansion is poor. (Changing existing mechanics is an easy quick fix - or is this case an easy and quick way to make things worse)
There should be compensation and consequence to performing so poorly. If this sort of service had happened in the majority of other companies, the company would fix the problem and apologise to the customers at the very least.
If the company wanted to stop this from happening in the future there would be a consequence or at least a discussion with the staff members involved. However I very much doubt Fozzie and Falcons manager is even aware of this.
CCP have some accountability surely? |
|
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 09:49:00 -
[1591] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote: This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread.
I think part of the frustration comes that we appear to be talking past each other; during the wormhole townhall, numerous people from both big and small corps outlined scenarios to CCP Fozzie in which they felt people would behave in a much more risk averse way after the changes, and thus generate less content. He was then asked for the reasons for the change - repeatedly - he was either unable or unwilling to articulate these.
On the feedback thing - I've noticed that camping highsec wormholes is now much more of a thing (HIC+webber+inties) - apart from generating more kills of new explorers, I'm not sure this is a great change. Ultimately I think if you want to stick to this spawning distance thing, you are also going to factor in the types of space a particular wormhole links between. |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 09:51:00 -
[1592] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:WH's act roughly like gates now?
Welcome to the rest of the universe. Apart from local of course, oh and cynos, infinate combat sites, belts, clones, jump clones, jump bridges, stations and outposts, markets, infinate mass on your gates, 100 man blobs, sov, supers...
And static routes with choke points that can be camped or bubbled for complete safety while munching on the blue donuts. |
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:01:00 -
[1593] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit.
Seriously ...
Adapting to the change may lead many small/mid sized wormhole corps to simply leave w-space and probably leaving the game.
Theses changes makes farming in wspace almost impossible. The risk/reward balance is too unbalanced.
Let's draw for you the big picture :
You have done a patch for w-space that represents maybe 5% of your customer base. 95% of theses 5% told you how and why theses changes are bad.
You have not taken this into account. The current patch is exactly the same as the blog post.
This patch leads to less w-space activity.
I hope your are monitoring activity in w-space, you will se less activity in the coming weeks.
About the forum breaked rules, this is what happens when you stay blinded.
We have not read ANY explanations about the REASONS of theses changes. We have given to you A LOT of comments, you given NOTHING. This is very rude leading to rude reactions. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
771
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:03:00 -
[1594] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Okay, so I came in a little more gently last time, because I know that there's quite a few people who don't like this particular change. A large proportion of our development staff also play the game, myself included. At times, I don't agree with changes that are being made. However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit. This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread. If you guys want to keep it here, feel free to do so, but don't complain if feedback gets removed because it's packed in with ranting and personal attacks. So, simple instruction for you guys out of your reaction to my previous post: Here are the forum rules. Follow them, or scroll down and read what happens when you break them. It's that simple. We have no problem with you guys voicing your concerns. In fact, I did the same for a decade as a player when I felt CCP had done something wrong. We do however have issues with people breaking the forum rules. Carry on discussing this. I'll point people here, and look at collecting feedback to send to development. However, don't break the forum rules.
I don't agree with the attacks against you or other devs and/or members, but you could not be more wrong in your understanding or response to this situation. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
101
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:10:00 -
[1595] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Okay, so I came in a little more gently last time, because I know that there's quite a few people who don't like this particular change. A large proportion of our development staff also play the game, myself included. At times, I don't agree with changes that are being made. However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit. This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread. If you guys want to keep it here, feel free to do so, but don't complain if feedback gets removed because it's packed in with ranting and personal attacks. So, simple instruction for you guys out of your reaction to my previous post: Here are the forum rules. Follow them, or scroll down and read what happens when you break them. It's that simple. We have no problem with you guys voicing your concerns. In fact, I did the same for a decade as a player when I felt CCP had done something wrong. We do however have issues with people breaking the forum rules. Carry on discussing this. I'll point people here, and look at collecting feedback to send to development. However, don't break the forum rules.
As somebody working in CRM for more than 10years in RL (oh the bad word real life) this response from you is so bad. Honestly.
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
541
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:16:00 -
[1596] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Okay, so I came in a little more gently last time, because I know that there's quite a few people who don't like this particular change. A large proportion of our development staff also play the game, myself included. At times, I don't agree with changes that are being made. However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit. This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread. If you guys want to keep it here, feel free to do so, but don't complain if feedback gets removed because it's packed in with ranting and personal attacks. So, simple instruction for you guys out of your reaction to my previous post: Here are the forum rules. Follow them, or scroll down and read what happens when you break them. It's that simple. We have no problem with you guys voicing your concerns. In fact, I did the same for a decade as a player when I felt CCP had done something wrong. We do however have issues with people breaking the forum rules. Carry on discussing this. I'll point people here, and look at collecting feedback to send to development. However, don't break the forum rules. You are just drowning out the negative feedback to make it seem like players think this change is acceptable.
I respect forums rules but in times like this when you **** on us I simply can't take it.
We posted constructive valid reasons in the first few pages of this thread.
THEY WERE ALL IGNORED
Why do you think we will bother to continue doing so when all you do is just go ahead with the changes even though the feedback you asked for goes against this change all the way with sound reasoning.
CCP was a *good* developer so far, this is a disgrace to your past success and will only lead to ruin.
This might not make more than a few thousand people quit but it adds to the pile for the rest of us, even I am considering unsubbing my accounts and leaving eve for good.
It's been a good almost 4 years for me but if developers start taking crap on us i see no reason to stay.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
541
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:23:00 -
[1597] - Quote
Papa Django wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit.
Seriously ... Adapting to the change may lead many small/mid sized wormhole corps to simply leave w-space and probably leaving the game. Theses changes makes farming in wspace almost impossible. The risk/reward balance is too unbalanced. Let's draw for you the big picture : You have done a patch for w-space that represents maybe 5% of your customer base. 95% of theses 5% told you how and why theses changes are bad. You have not taken this into account. The current patch is exactly the same as the blog post. This patch leads to less w-space activity. I hope your are monitoring activity in w-space, you will se less activity in the coming weeks. About the forum breaked rules, this is what happens when you stay blinded. We have not read ANY explanations about the REASONS of theses changes. We have given to you A LOT of comments, you given NOTHING. This is very rude leading to rude reactions.
This is exactly the reason why I have been rude.
They ask for feedback and when we give constructive feedback they completely disregard it.
We start being rude and they tell us to post constructively etc... What difference does it make when they clearly give no fucks about what we have to say.
They refuse to listen to reason.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
233
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:25:00 -
[1598] - Quote
This change greatly reduces the ability for a capsuleer to manipulate his environment for both pvp and pve. this change has already forced multiple wh corps out of wh space and as the pvp opportunities move out with them, more are following.
the random element added removes meaning to losses and kills. there is no way to reduce, remove or compensate for this like you can on cynos for example; people have figured out how to land JF within 0 of undock without bumping even though there is a 5km random zone it can land in. another example is the random mass on whs where knowledge is able to overcome the random nature. in this change there is no way to do this, your actions have no meaning.
every wh corp has that one or two guys everyone knows will get a hole rolled without screwing up. they trust that person 100% and they are prized and respected for that skill. I used to be that guy but with this change there isnt any way for skill and knowledge to overcome this, just brute force and raw numbers.
this change takes away some of the ability for us effect our environment, the very essence of eve. a little bit of eve died with this change.
there is your feedback for your devs. now lets look at you job as a community manager.
we are being treated like the badguys, like children who doesn't know what's good for them and that is the source of the rants and negative posts (not counting the troll attemps by some npc/null toons)
Fozzie is a dev, he started this thread and the ratio of solid, constructive and only slightly angry feedback to unhelpfull posts is crazy good for ANYWHERE on these forums if you consider exactly how unpopular this change is. there has been some amazingly good feedback especially the last few pages but people are tired of hopping from one official thread to the next only to be told no, this isnt the official OFFICIAL thread and anything you've said here doesn't matter. how is it that you can't see the frustration? this is not a few days or even a week of frustration either. this isnt unjustified knee jerk tantrum either. This is a month of one sided ccp telling us this is how its going to be and we are going shut up, sit down and like it.
ccp Falcon, how much of this thread have you read? when did you become aware of this thread? Who else at ccp knows how the wh community ar large feels about this? we need to know that the wh community isnt just some joke or embarrising accident that ccp is finally getting around to cleaning up.
because if you treat the wh community as expendable then guess what, most of them will be happy to prove just how expendable they are. |
Samsara Nolte
Sternenschauer AG W.A.S. Alliance - Weapons Armor or Shield
19
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:33:00 -
[1599] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:I like this change and so do most likely more than 5% of all wormholers. XGADuke wrote:This is all fine and well, however lets say the wormhole is empty, the residents are offline or not interested. We just need to roll again right? Spotted your mistake there. With the vast number of holes now everywhere, there are so many connections in virtually every chain that you have a higher chance to find an active system by simply scanning and scouting than by rolling your static. And, very importantly, the new way scales much better with corp size: Only a few people can actively roll, but a lot of people can spread out and explore a chain.Ok, so you didn't find anything. Finding active systems has been hard for a long time now. But this change didn't make it harder. The new level of interconnectedness, combined with how fast and easy scanning is nowadays, makes rolling basically obsolete. All the crybabies here are just either too stuck in their old crusty ways or their real concern is that their safe farming is now also obsolete.
Yes - that-¦s right a lot of people can scan and explore the chains ... but what is the result of that when you have scouts ten wormholes away from home ? You spread your forces thin, every hole you have to cross to get to your content given your corp size requires at least one scout in every hole further away from home - I-¦m aware if you are abel to get 40 T3-¦s in fleet you don-¦t have to deal with that, there aren-¦t that many entities who can do the same ... well they-¦ll likely scout too, becuase they don-¦t wanna cut of from their home system by getting one of their connections collapsed ... but if you cap out at around 10 T3-¦s scouts are a necessity ... not only are there lots of groups who can field the same and wait for you to spring their trap for you ... it also is gonna reduce greatly the force you can bring into fights, then every scout is a pilot who potentially could field another ship, therefore reducing your combat ability ... a simple front and back scout normally used in low and null just can-¦t get the job done in w-space ... we have a permanently shifting environment ... which requires constant verification ... that only scouts can deliver - we got no system activity chart jump count or api crap because we don-¦t know to which w-system we are connected unless we jump a scout into it ... i don-¦t know what the devs are thinking how far we are able to venture into w-space away from home ... but there is hard cap to the distance and that is your member count (therefore the number of scouts you have combined with the force you need to bring to be able to fight) ... it makes no sense to scan the the chain down to find a target in last system and then only to have one pilot left to fight whatever there is waiting for you ... so most w-space residents are gonna roll their static when there forces are gonna spread to thin ... then whatever there might be waiting for them further down the rabbit hole is something they simply can-¦t engage. And this change isn-¦t gonna magically improve the number of pilots you have at your disposal ... it is in fact gonna do the exact opposite ... with the introduction of more random w-spcae connection your forces are gonna spread even thiner therefore effectivley reducing the length of your cahin in whcih your are still able to act ... then what everyone living in w-space is clear and every schould be clear to - is the fact that once you are unable to get back your fleet home again your assets stored in the POS in your home system are most likely lost ... at the latest when your pos runs out of fuel ... (everybody-¦s got safety measures, in form of scous sitting at home, to avoid that ... but things can go wrong ..)
I came to believe that the devs gave their changes a lot of thought exspecially the synergies all of their changes are gonna have seems to have evaded their attention ... |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
247
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:50:00 -
[1600] - Quote
This thread is so full of self-entitlement that it's not even funny. Apparently WH's are now unusable and not worth any of the effort because you're not making any money and cannot fight because you might lose a ship or 2.
After the first 24 pages the points why this change is a bad thing came down to:
1. Rage rolling holes takes a few more people now, meaning either more time or resources. 2. Caps are less useful as you cannot clump them together to do Clarion Call -esque tactics everywhere. 3. WH jumping is the only mechanic which has this variation of jump distance based on mass.
Personally this just reeks of personal gain and comfort instead of looking at the full picture. For first part, do you think that this was the intended mechanic just like WH's being fully habitable wasn't? It takes a big more effort to get a thing done and poses some more risk, isn't this what you want from wormholes or are you too stuck on "Safe grinding and random gudfites with other T3's" to take any change in?
Second part is just risk aversion, don't use caps if you feel like they're at increased risk of getting popped. They're not really meant as the first response ships but geared more towards a tactical tool originally and are still used as such. Before the change a capital was immune to anything outside of "let's trade a capital for a capital by cross-jumping the hole" and that was never a good idea due to gaining nothing. Now you actually have to take care of your assets instead of just being blissfully safe with them unless your tower is getting touched in the wrong place.
For third point, instead of using the normal argument of "you figure out why nullsec shouldn't have this and if you don't get it, you're stupid" I'll explain: bombers. They're one of the most versatile tool in null to cripple or take out an enemy fleet. If someone lights a cyno with 14 bombers in local and does not protect it with a bubble, they'll get bombed due to landing within the 5km radius of the cyno. If the force jumping in has BC's or BS's, they are big enough to get hit hard and will not be fast enough to warp away or initiate MJD due to warp tunnels. They also don't get a gate cloak to protect themselves from this unlike when using a gate. Getting those ships in a ball with a radius of up to 38km (max distance on WH?) would eliminate a big part of defending against a big fleet and let attackers to come to the system more easily.
What about caps jumping in and getting spread to a large area? They'll land in a big nice ball and have at least one other cap in range to refit. If they're for triage, everyone is still in the range. What it would change is using cynos to travel as you wouldn't be able to light a cyno on more than 2 types of stations and dock immediately, this would be a good change. |
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
541
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:52:00 -
[1601] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:This thread is so full of self-entitlement that it's not even funny. Apparently WH's are now unusable and not worth any of the effort because you're not making any money and cannot fight because you might lose a ship or 2.
After the first 24 pages the points why this change is a bad thing came down to:
1. Rage rolling holes takes a few more people now, meaning either more time or resources. 2. Caps are less useful as you cannot clump them together to do Clarion Call -esque tactics everywhere. 3. WH jumping is the only mechanic which has this variation of jump distance based on mass.
Personally this just reeks of personal gain and comfort instead of looking at the full picture. For first part, do you think that this was the intended mechanic just like WH's being fully habitable wasn't? It takes a big more effort to get a thing done and poses some more risk, isn't this what you want from wormholes or are you too stuck on "Safe grinding and random gudfites with other T3's" to take any change in?
Second part is just risk aversion, don't use caps if you feel like they're at increased risk of getting popped. They're not really meant as the first response ships but geared more towards a tactical tool originally and are still used as such. Before the change a capital was immune to anything outside of "let's trade a capital for a capital by cross-jumping the hole" and that was never a good idea due to gaining nothing. Now you actually have to take care of your assets instead of just being blissfully safe with them unless your tower is getting touched in the wrong place.
For third point, instead of using the normal argument of "you figure out why nullsec shouldn't have this and if you don't get it, you're stupid" I'll explain: bombers. They're one of the most versatile tool in null to cripple or take out an enemy fleet. If someone lights a cyno with 14 bombers in local and does not protect it with a bubble, they'll get bombed due to landing within the 5km radius of the cyno. If the force jumping in has BC's or BS's, they are big enough to get hit hard and will not be fast enough to warp away or initiate MJD due to warp tunnels. They also don't get a gate cloak to protect themselves from this unlike when using a gate. Getting those ships in a ball with a radius of up to 38km (max distance on WH?) would eliminate a big part of defending against a big fleet and let attackers to come to the system more easily.
What about caps jumping in and getting spread to a large area? They'll land in a big nice ball and have at least one other cap in range to refit. If they're for triage, everyone is still in the range. What it would change is using cynos to travel as you wouldn't be able to light a cyno on more than 2 types of stations and dock immediately, this would be a good change.
Ever been into wormholes?
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
poerkie
Viperfleet Inc. Disavowed.
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:58:00 -
[1602] - Quote
rage rolling is boring anyway... Deep chaining FTW didnt had so many kills in a while including 3.8 bil fit marauders and a prophecy from some random drunken german guy |
BeanBagKing
Aperture Harmonics No Holes Barred
304
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 10:58:00 -
[1603] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Ever been into wormholes?
Yes, yes he has!
once.. |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:01:00 -
[1604] - Quote
Ha, you guys are wrong! This wasn't a feed-back thread it was a pressure releasing valve/thread. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
772
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:03:00 -
[1605] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:This thread is so full of self-entitlement that it's not even funny. Apparently WH's are now unusable and not worth any of the effort because you're not making any money and cannot fight because you might lose a ship or 2.
Self entitled or not, whether people were right or wrong isn't really the point, pertinent questions backed up reasoning in a feedback thread and not only ignored* but later snubbed, at which point thing got a bit out of hand.
* I can understand Fozzie is working on a million things at this point as well as heavily investing time in AT, but ateast I'd have expected something along the lines of acknowledgement of the issues and that it would be looked at/addressed even if that was post patch, instead of what basically amounts to the finger that we have had from any CCP responses here. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
238
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:07:00 -
[1606] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Adrie Atticus wrote:This thread is so full of self-entitlement that it's not even funny. Apparently WH's are now unusable and not worth any of the effort because you're not making any money and cannot fight because you might lose a ship or 2.
After the first 24 pages the points why this change is a bad thing came down to:
1. Rage rolling holes takes a few more people now, meaning either more time or resources. 2. Caps are less useful as you cannot clump them together to do Clarion Call -esque tactics everywhere. 3. WH jumping is the only mechanic which has this variation of jump distance based on mass.
Personally this just reeks of personal gain and comfort instead of looking at the full picture. For first part, do you think that this was the intended mechanic just like WH's being fully habitable wasn't? It takes a big more effort to get a thing done and poses some more risk, isn't this what you want from wormholes or are you too stuck on "Safe grinding and random gudfites with other T3's" to take any change in?
Second part is just risk aversion, don't use caps if you feel like they're at increased risk of getting popped. They're not really meant as the first response ships but geared more towards a tactical tool originally and are still used as such. Before the change a capital was immune to anything outside of "let's trade a capital for a capital by cross-jumping the hole" and that was never a good idea due to gaining nothing. Now you actually have to take care of your assets instead of just being blissfully safe with them unless your tower is getting touched in the wrong place.
For third point, instead of using the normal argument of "you figure out why nullsec shouldn't have this and if you don't get it, you're stupid" I'll explain: bombers. They're one of the most versatile tool in null to cripple or take out an enemy fleet. If someone lights a cyno with 14 bombers in local and does not protect it with a bubble, they'll get bombed due to landing within the 5km radius of the cyno. If the force jumping in has BC's or BS's, they are big enough to get hit hard and will not be fast enough to warp away or initiate MJD due to warp tunnels. They also don't get a gate cloak to protect themselves from this unlike when using a gate. Getting those ships in a ball with a radius of up to 38km (max distance on WH?) would eliminate a big part of defending against a big fleet and let attackers to come to the system more easily.
What about caps jumping in and getting spread to a large area? They'll land in a big nice ball and have at least one other cap in range to refit. If they're for triage, everyone is still in the range. What it would change is using cynos to travel as you wouldn't be able to light a cyno on more than 2 types of stations and dock immediately, this would be a good change. Ever been into wormholes? Doubtful, I have had to correct DOZENS of misconceptions in my own corp regarding wormholes and these are guys that have been playing for 10 YEARS. I shudder to think what misconceptions ccp has if this joker from bastion is any indication. even if ccp has the benefit of having designed the game and have access to statistics.
the more I look at this the bigger a joke it becomes; ccp, null, eve the whole thing. |
Adrie Atticus
The Shadow Plague The Bastion
248
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:18:00 -
[1607] - Quote
BeanBagKing wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Ever been into wormholes? Yes, yes he has! once..
Don't worry, I post on the goonpet toon just to generate tears.
But hey at least you know how to use a killboard so I assume you are capable of reading the post and forming a proper response. |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
34
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:32:00 -
[1608] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:BeanBagKing wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Ever been into wormholes? Yes, yes he has! once.. Don't worry, I post on the goonpet toon just to generate tears. But hey at least you know how to use a killboard so I assume you are capable of reading the post and forming a proper response.
A proper response for a wall of nonsense? Yes Bean, I challenge you to do that |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
242
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:45:00 -
[1609] - Quote
Adrie Atticus wrote:BeanBagKing wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Ever been into wormholes? Yes, yes he has! once.. Don't worry, I post on the goonpet toon just to generate tears. But hey at least you know how to use a killboard so I assume you are capable of reading the post and forming a proper response. So you are actively trolling an official feedback thread. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1130
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 11:49:00 -
[1610] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Okay, so I came in a little more gently last time, because I know that there's quite a few people who don't like this particular change. A large proportion of our development staff also play the game, myself included. At times, I don't agree with changes that are being made. However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit. This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread. If you guys want to keep it here, feel free to do so, but don't complain if feedback gets removed because it's packed in with ranting and personal attacks. So, simple instruction for you guys out of your reaction to my previous post: Here are the forum rules. Follow them, or scroll down and read what happens when you break them. It's that simple. We have no problem with you guys voicing your concerns. In fact, I did the same for a decade as a player when I felt CCP had done something wrong. We do however have issues with people breaking the forum rules. Carry on discussing this. I'll point people here, and look at collecting feedback to send to development. However, don't break the forum rules.
Respectfully, I suggest that you read a little more closely and mentally filter out the obvious trolls and the response to those, remember trolls solicit agressive responses.
What you have left, are clear discussions of the change, the effects of the change and the feelings created from the way this issue has been handled and forced upon us, and the clear realisation that someone in your company decided this was going to happen no matter what.
This has seriously damaged the credibility of your company, and the credibility of your staff.
I do feel sorry for whoever has been put on the firing line, to take all the bullets and criticism.
Whether Fozzie was or was not the final arbitor and ultimately responsible, he is the one who was put in the crosshairs, a sacrificial goat. That is entirely CCP's responsibility.
Do not mistake the reaction of many of the wormhole community as anger.
The feeling of most is either grave disappointment, or disgust. AND despair.
Re read the thread with that in mind, and please do not compound the error, by asking us to repost everything in the general hyperion forum, ignoring all of this, as anything we say will be swamped and lost within the toxic trolls, and you really will only then raise the emotions to fever pitch. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
|
CCP Falcon
8423
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:01:00 -
[1611] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:CCP Falcon wrote: This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread.
I think part of the frustration comes that we appear to be talking past each other; during the wormhole townhall, numerous people from both big and small corps outlined scenarios to CCP Fozzie in which they felt people would behave in a much more risk averse way after the changes, and thus generate less content. He was then asked for the reasons for the change - repeatedly - he was either unable or unwilling to articulate these. On the feedback thing - I've noticed that camping highsec wormholes is now much more of a thing (HIC+webber+inties) - apart from generating more kills of new explorers, I'm not sure this is a great change. Ultimately I think if you want to stick to this spawning distance thing, you are also going to factor in the types of space a particular wormhole links between.
Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling.
I'll pass this on directly to development.
CCP Falcon || Community Manager || @CCP_Falcon
Happy Birthday To FAWLTY7! <3 |
|
Naglerr
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
14
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:05:00 -
[1612] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Necharo Rackham wrote:CCP Falcon wrote: This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread.
I think part of the frustration comes that we appear to be talking past each other; during the wormhole townhall, numerous people from both big and small corps outlined scenarios to CCP Fozzie in which they felt people would behave in a much more risk averse way after the changes, and thus generate less content. He was then asked for the reasons for the change - repeatedly - he was either unable or unwilling to articulate these. On the feedback thing - I've noticed that camping highsec wormholes is now much more of a thing (HIC+webber+inties) - apart from generating more kills of new explorers, I'm not sure this is a great change. Ultimately I think if you want to stick to this spawning distance thing, you are also going to factor in the types of space a particular wormhole links between. Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling. I'll pass this on directly to development.
CCP Falcon, would it be possible to give us a timeframe for an expected response from the Devs who work directly on development regarding the feedback you are passing to them? |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
820
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:13:00 -
[1613] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling. I'll pass this on directly to development. Falcon, something else that was brought up at the Wormhole townhall that got kind of pushed to one side. It was recieved somewhat well by the community.
Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.
Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes. Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1131
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:18:00 -
[1614] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling. I'll pass this on directly to development. Falcon, something else that was brought up at the Wormhole townhall that got kind of pushed to one side. It was recieved somewhat well by the community. Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer. Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.
The Idea has some merit as long as it was based on solid mechanics and not just some random chance of dying badly. The alternate version of this with the additional feature of speed and direction of wormhole entry determines distance and exit path, also has good possibilities, as it strengthens the relationship between player generated cause and effect. Anything that destroys this relationship will be equally unwanted. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
628
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:18:00 -
[1615] - Quote
Oh goody discussion time again.
Adrie Atticus wrote: Personally this just reeks of personal gain and comfort instead of looking at the full picture. For first part, do you think that this was the intended mechanic just like WH's being fully habitable wasn't? It takes a big more effort to get a thing done and poses some more risk, isn't this what you want from wormholes or are you too stuck on "Safe grinding and random gudfites with other T3's" to take any change in?
Ok so the big picture I'd like you to look at this from different angles of w-space can you please look at it from the pov of. a big c5 or c6 group. a small 5 to 20 man low class wh who only have 2 to 4 people online and a farming group in c5 or c6 space. Then also take in to account how the frig wh's (which are literally everywhere) will affect these groups. Now there is risk and there is RISK for instance noho bhaals deep fleet is probably 40 to 50b that we put on the line and we often do if we think there a semi reasonable chance to win. thats acceptable risk. having caps spread all over the place move it from acceptable risk to unacceptable meaning we're alot less likely to risk it.
Adrie Atticus wrote:Second part is just risk aversion, don't use caps if you feel like they're at increased risk of getting popped. They're not really meant as the first response ships but geared more towards a tactical tool originally and are still used as such. Before the change a capital was immune to anything outside of "let's trade a capital for a capital by cross-jumping the hole" and that was never a good idea due to gaining nothing. Now you actually have to take care of your assets instead of just being blissfully safe with them unless your tower is getting touched in the wrong place.
I've already said about risk aversion. we arent flying hawks and hyena's here. could you explain why caps should not be a first response ship for us wormhole people maybe tell us exactly what should be a first response ship? and why? The trade a cap for a cap is also a very viable tactic if say... you trap there carrier and t3 in your wh where you have couple dreads and stop them bringing there dreads in you trade a potentially cheap are empty cap hull for a t3 fleet and expensive triage. if you go bhaals deep there is no blissfully safe its win big lose big (but great fun).
Adrie Atticus wrote: For third point, instead of using the normal argument of "you figure out why nullsec shouldn't have this and if you don't get it, you're stupid" I'll explain: bombers. They're one of the most versatile tool in null to cripple or take out an enemy fleet. If someone lights a cyno with 14 bombers in local and does not protect it with a bubble, they'll get bombed due to landing within the 5km radius of the cyno. If the force jumping in has BC's or BS's, they are big enough to get hit hard and will not be fast enough to warp away or initiate MJD due to warp tunnels. They also don't get a gate cloak to protect themselves from this unlike when using a gate. Getting those ships in a ball with a radius of up to 38km (max distance on WH?) would eliminate a big part of defending against a big fleet and let attackers to come to the system more easily.
wtf has this to do with wh's???
Adrie Atticus wrote: What about caps jumping in and getting spread to a large area? They'll land in a big nice ball and have at least one other cap in range to refit. If they're for triage, everyone is still in the range. What it would change is using cynos to travel as you wouldn't be able to light a cyno on more than 2 types of stations and dock immediately, this would be a good change.
Not sure wtf this has to do with wh mass and distance but hell rest of your stuff has been bs so what ever.
You seem to be focusingon caps which yes will be a issue here for wh space but what about the smaller groups in lower class wh's do you feel it will be safe for them? have you considered how rolling will be for them with these changes and the frig wh's?
Time to plagiarise again.
Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Winthorp
2642
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:26:00 -
[1616] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head.
If only we could get this stickied FFS. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
542
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:32:00 -
[1617] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Word.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
820
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:32:00 -
[1618] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Quoted for truth and because when I read this I nearly died from laughing and trying to swallow tea at the same time. Best. Reply. Ever. Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
131
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:42:00 -
[1619] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote: Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.
Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.
No, not like this. The only meaningful way I see is make this based on entry speed. (= tackeled on one side > close to WH on the other) |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
820
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:50:00 -
[1620] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:Seraph Essael wrote: Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.
Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.
No, not like this. The only meaningful way I see is make this based on entry speed. (= tackeled on one side > close to WH on the other) Again, was also something that was brought up at the town hall. Both ideas were ripe with discussion and both met with decent feedback. While I do like the idea of speed in defines the out distance, I think people may abuse that specific system and tackle their own rolling ships so they spawn at 0 on the other side. Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
543
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 12:54:00 -
[1621] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Seraph Essael wrote: Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.
Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.
No, not like this. The only meaningful way I see is make this based on entry speed. (= tackeled on one side > close to WH on the other) Again, was also something that was brought up at the town hall. Both ideas were ripe with discussion and both met with decent feedback. While I do like the idea of speed in defines the out distance, I think people may abuse that specific system and tackle their own rolling ships so they spawn at 0 on the other side. How is that abuse.
It seems like a creative mechanic.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
820
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 13:00:00 -
[1622] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Seraph Essael wrote: Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.
Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.
No, not like this. The only meaningful way I see is make this based on entry speed. (= tackeled on one side > close to WH on the other) Again, was also something that was brought up at the town hall. Both ideas were ripe with discussion and both met with decent feedback. While I do like the idea of speed in defines the out distance, I think people may abuse that specific system and tackle their own rolling ships so they spawn at 0 on the other side. How is that abuse. It seems like a creative mechanic. Oh I agree but I'm kinda thinking CCP want some ships to spawn away from the "can jump straight back in" radius. While I don't agree with this implementation (wormholes after all are not gates and have complete different mechanics), unfortunately it's there decision and what they wan't and they would probably not implement speed - mass because of that. I think that they should either rollback to how wormholes were before Hyperion, or implement one of the two community based ideas. Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
90
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 13:07:00 -
[1623] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Time to plagiarise again.
Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head.
Hey, you can-¦t tell that to someone in Bastion. It-¦s like you were using their own words against them.
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
244
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 13:09:00 -
[1624] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Seraph Essael wrote: Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.
Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.
No, not like this. The only meaningful way I see is make this based on entry speed. (= tackeled on one side > close to WH on the other) Again, was also something that was brought up at the town hall. Both ideas were ripe with discussion and both met with decent feedback. While I do like the idea of speed in defines the out distance, I think people may abuse that specific system and tackle their own rolling ships so they spawn at 0 on the other side. How is that abuse. It seems like a creative mechanic. my only concern with that is it will involve waay too much new code over any and all other changes they have made being far simpler changes of existing code. the inverted mass changes is by far the best suggestion apart from scrapping it completely.
that said with the amount of damage already done it will take a long time for whs to recover even if they magically revert tomorrow at dt. the numbers will reflect what we have been saying and it will be hilarious to see when they finally go 'oh, oops'. we can argue, troll and theory craft all we want, aint going to make a tiny bit of difference anymore. I will savor that 'I told you so' I can almost taste it already. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1133
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 13:32:00 -
[1625] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:Bleedingthrough wrote:Seraph Essael wrote: Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer.
Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes.
No, not like this. The only meaningful way I see is make this based on entry speed. (= tackeled on one side > close to WH on the other) Again, was also something that was brought up at the town hall. Both ideas were ripe with discussion and both met with decent feedback. While I do like the idea of speed in defines the out distance, I think people may abuse that specific system and tackle their own rolling ships so they spawn at 0 on the other side. How is that abuse. It seems like a creative mechanic. my only concern with that is it will involve waay too much new code over any and all other changes they have made being far simpler changes of existing code. the inverted mass changes is by far the best suggestion apart from scrapping it completely. that said with the amount of damage already done it will take a long time for whs to recover even if they magically revert tomorrow at dt. the numbers will reflect what we have been saying and it will be hilarious to see when they finally go 'oh, oops'. we can argue, troll and theory craft all we want, aint going to make a tiny bit of difference anymore. I will savor that 'I told you so' I can almost taste it already.
Personally i believe that no code is better than bad code, and if one implements a bad change because it is easy to code, there is a severe disconnect with reality present.
The solution to the actual issue, leaving aside the effects this has had on community relations, needs to make things better than worse than before hyperion.
1. Changes other than the mass space spawn are questionable in isolation, the overall effect on the wormhole environment is unpredictable, I will not say that they will be good or bad, the jury is out on that, but it will need watching closely and a fast response if issues are seen.
2. Mass spawn distance change. This is the change that is so misguided, it does not add risk as such, other than the element of luck introduced, this is a seriously bad idea, a mechanic that distances itself from the concept of player "cause" leads to effect, adds nothing to the game, and devalues and makes irrelevant all player effort and input. It also fails to meet all the stated goals, and in the main makes rolling wormholes simply more tiresome, and particularly so for small corps. Coupled with the other changes it magnifies all their downsides, and negates the good. It is also impossible to adapt to "luck" one gambles or not, that is the only adaptation possible.
3. If one wishes to make the hole transit mechanic more involved, then the suggestion that speed and direction of wormhole entry determines wormhole ejection distance and direction, via a solid repeatable predictable dynamic would achieve that goal rewarding player input and tactics. This may be harder to program, and would eliminate the majority of the concerns.
It is better Not to make changes, than to make bad ones because they are easier.
I suggest that the mass spawn change be rolled back until the effects of the other changes are seen, and a better design is, discussed with our CSM representative, decided, and only then implemented. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
crazy0146
The Federation of assorted candy
66
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 13:44:00 -
[1626] - Quote
I have some questions regarding this change that I would like answered, Though I don't expect some of them to be answered.
1. Was this a change that was always going to go through no matter what feedback was received?
2. Were there any Dev time allocated to having a look at this feature after receiving the feedback or had the Devs moved on to other projects?
and probably the most important:
3. Why was this change still pushed through in its current form, despite the overwhelmingly negative reaction to it, and the well reasoned feedback given. ie. why was it still thought of as a good change? |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
174
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 13:53:00 -
[1627] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling. I'll pass this on directly to development.
So what the everloving **** happened to the OTHER 80 pages of feedback? |
Anthar Thebess
673
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 13:54:00 -
[1628] - Quote
Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random? Support Needed : Jump Fuel Consumption Support Needed : Faction Crystal Changes |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1134
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:01:00 -
[1629] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random?
Quote:corbexx wrote: Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head.
Ps they already do have variable mass. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
157
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:03:00 -
[1630] - Quote
LOL, thus thread has more posts than the features and ideas thread on changes to sov and power projection. |
|
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
91
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:05:00 -
[1631] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random?
Funfact, that was my suggestion for too safe closing of C5/6s, just up the 10% deviation to 50/60%. Sadly CCP already was set on their way and never cared for alternatives. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
773
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:12:00 -
[1632] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random? Funfact, that was my suggestion for too safe closing of C5/6s, just up the 10% deviation to 50/60%. Sadly CCP already was set on their way and never cared for alternatives.
If its really about being "too safe" too collapse just make it so that static wormholes don't cleanly collapse in one go - but once massed down below their class max mass stop being statics (which allows the new static to spawn) and becomes a new weaker wormhole with a much more limited jump mass and lifetime - would need some mechanism to prevent abuse from players trying to make 100s of the weaker wormholes.
i.e. once you've put 3Bn mass through a H296 it would shrink and become something similar to a H121 but with say 15 or 30 minutes lifetime or something along those kind of lines. Without preventing the new static H296 from spawning. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
644
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:13:00 -
[1633] - Quote
Talking to old corpmates (including the CEO) from a relatively big c5 pvp/pve wh corp, I'm relieved to see that most people are actually quite unconcerned about this change and w-space is not in the state of hysterical anger and grieving despair this thread makes it look to be . |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
546
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:14:00 -
[1634] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random? Wow...
That's idiots trying to pretend they know stuff.
They already have that.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
773
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:16:00 -
[1635] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Talking to old corpmates (including the CEO) from a relatively big c5 pvp/pve wh corp, I'm relieved to see that most people are actually quite unconcerned about this change and w-space is not in the state of hysterical anger and grieving despair this thread makes it look to be
From those I've talked to there are quite a few unconcerned about it, there are quite a few who think its a bad idea to vary degrees and I've yet to find anyone who is actually for it - other than the fact they like that their scouts and blockade runners are safer than ever. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
644
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:24:00 -
[1636] - Quote
Rroff wrote: From those I've talked to there are quite a few unconcerned about it, there are quite a few who think its a bad idea to vary degrees and I've yet to find anyone who is actually for it - other than the fact they like that their scouts and blockade runners are safer than ever.
That is not really surprising because the change does not directly benefit any individual in their daily life (except while scouting/hauling). Its sense is clearly strategic and transcending individual players or corporations, and obviously 99% of players don't get that or don't care because they only see their own short-term convenience and disruption of routines established over many years. . |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
248
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:31:00 -
[1637] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random? uuuuh you DO know that theres already a 10% random amount on mass right? Please tell me you already knew this. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
773
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:34:00 -
[1638] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Rroff wrote: From those I've talked to there are quite a few unconcerned about it, there are quite a few who think its a bad idea to vary degrees and I've yet to find anyone who is actually for it - other than the fact they like that their scouts and blockade runners are safer than ever.
That is not really surprising because the change does not directly benefit any individual in their daily life (except while scouting/hauling). Its sense is clearly strategic and transcending individual players or corporations, and obviously 99% of players don't get that or don't care because they only see their own short-term convenience and disruption of routines established over many years.
Only as pointed out it largely doesn't address the issue(s) it was supposed to while having a largely negative aspect on day to day activities for the sake of mixing up the dynamic in some fringe cases. If the concerns of "safe" collapsing and frequency of collapsing are really such an issue there are much better ways to address that (technical considerations aside) while there are some potential ways this kind of mechanism could be used to mix up the meta a bit without impacting on the tedious day to day activities. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1579
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:40:00 -
[1639] - Quote
Well, that was the biggest douche manouvre from CCP Falcon.
Here's the CCP Playbook on PR.
Step 1: Get high on drugs and hire CCP Fozzie. Step 2: Wake up with a hangove / CCP Fozzie implementing patches, or whatever. Who knew meth was so powerful? Hire CCP Falcon. Step 3; implement changes blind on the test server. Step 4; When people blow up about it, sheepishly admit you are "testing" it, even though you got hopped up on meth and let Fozzie bork everything. Step 5: Ignore 75 page thread. Step 6; Deploy the Falcon. He will go into the thread and disparage everyone who has been constructive, and tell them the feedback thread is not the correct feedback thread. Step 7: Wait for the next piece of trivially useless non-advice by someone. make sure it is less than 2 paragraphs long and has no reasoning, logic or critical analysis of its points. The more facetious the better. Step 8: Deploy the Falcon again. he will pick the most useless and facile feedback and promise to pass it on to the developers. Don't worry, it won't at all seem arrogant and dismissive of everything else. Nope, not one bit. No one will sit there and think "douchewad" silently under their breath. Make sure he uses an emoticon - it makes customers more gruntled. Gruntled customers are better than disgruntled customers!
Yep. You've been schooled in PR. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
35
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:41:00 -
[1640] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Talking to old corpmates (including the CEO) from a relatively big c5 pvp/pve wh corp, I'm relieved to see that most people are actually quite unconcerned about this change and w-space is not in the state of hysterical anger and grieving despair this thread makes it look to be
You're kidding right? I'm pretty sure people have stopped venting mostly because CCP gave people the finger and said "we don't care we're doing it anyway" despite telling people they were going to listen to their feedback. When someone says they're going to listen to you but ignores everything you say eventually you just find something else to do and say "f*@k that a$$hole". |
|
Jareedon
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:43:00 -
[1641] - Quote
now wormhole space in nullsec! time to take down the pos! |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
644
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:45:00 -
[1642] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Only as pointed out it largely doesn't address the issue(s) it was supposed to while having a largely negative aspect on day to day activities for the sake of mixing up the dynamic in some fringe cases. If the concerns of "safe" collapsing and frequency of collapsing are really such an issue there are much better ways to address that (technical considerations aside) while there are some potential ways this kind of mechanism could be used to mix up the meta a bit without impacting on the tedious day to day activities. With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections.
I happen to like this thinking. Most people here apparently don't. I think they will change their mind eventually, or be replaced by people who embrace the new environment. But I could be wrong. Or maybe there was no plan at all and Fozzie just hates us, who knows ^^ . |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
248
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:46:00 -
[1643] - Quote
remember there is no promise of actually doing anything when someone says 'we will listen to your feedback'.
listening is not doing.
keep that in mind for every feedback thread you will ever participate in ever and you will understand how much ccp is having a giggle at your expense. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
774
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:49:00 -
[1644] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote: or be replaced by people who embrace the new environment. But I could be wrong. Or maybe there was no plan at all and Fozzie just hates us, who knows ^^
I'm fairly sure this is largely what will happen... but in no shape or form is this a good thing - especially not in a game that pretends to be about playing the long game. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1136
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:49:00 -
[1645] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random? Funfact, that was my suggestion for too safe closing of C5/6s, just up the 10% deviation to 50/60%. Sadly CCP already was set on their way and never cared for alternatives.
This is why. And with good reason.
Quote:corbexx wrote: Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1579
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:53:00 -
[1646] - Quote
There's really no point having anything above a destroyer aside from a double-bubble HICtor now, because to take advantage of this gigantic web of holes crap you need to be able to traverse the frig holes.
If I want gates, i'll go to k-space.
if i want frig-only combat, i'll go beat my head against a wall in FW again.
This risks being th death knell of wormholes as something diffferent from all the rest of EVE. A lace where you can hunt. A place where you can brawl, in its purest form. A place where you can't gate camp with a ceptor and vigilant or a daredevil and osprey toon, forever, amen, end of story. A place where quality beats quantity.
No longer. Webs of frigate only holes connecting everywhere, all the time, persistently? What kind of madness is this.
Adaptable. Yes. But then indistinguishable from nullsec or lowsec. Whoopee. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
249
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 14:55:00 -
[1647] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Rroff wrote:Only as pointed out it largely doesn't address the issue(s) it was supposed to while having a largely negative aspect on day to day activities for the sake of mixing up the dynamic in some fringe cases. If the concerns of "safe" collapsing and frequency of collapsing are really such an issue there are much better ways to address that (technical considerations aside) while there are some potential ways this kind of mechanism could be used to mix up the meta a bit without impacting on the tedious day to day activities. With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections. I happen to like this thinking. Most people here apparently don't. I think they will change their mind eventually, or be replaced by people who embrace the new environment. But I could be wrong. Or maybe there was no plan at all and Fozzie just hates us, who knows ^^ soooo more like null? but without any of the dozens of safety features and force projection mechanics present in null.
and now you want us to siege capitals in sites with rats that point out to 60km+?
would you drop a carrier in a nullsec anom if you had no local, no exit cyno, and no coalition intel channel?
hell we are forbidden from ratting with carriers WITH all those things. |
Iku Nergal
All Your Holes Are Belong To Us CriticaI Mass
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:05:00 -
[1648] - Quote
Normally, I don't give feedback to particular changes, because it doesn't affect me personally. This is normally the case because I do my business in W-Space, and not K-Space where 99% of the changes have been made up to this point.
My current status & background
I am in a small corp and currently living in a C3/LS system. We selected this type of Wormhole because of the small-gang PVP we can get with our static connection whilst having the opportunity to easily get to K-Space if needed. I have lived in all class of WH's from C1-C4. no C5's or 6's. I have done Hi-Sec missions, incursions, NullSec Coalition warfare, and Low-Sec operations coupled with PvE/PvP content in all forms mentioned above. I have specifically chosen Wormhole content vs all others for multiple reasons including the dynamic PVP content, and the unique PvE experience WSpace offers.
I play EvE for about 4 hours a day, squeezing every minute I can get into this game.
Before, and after tthe WH spawn rate changes in the previous expansion
Before the change, we was able to login about every night, and have maybe one other Wormhole connection to us. We would simply roll our Orca's through it and close it. It would take roughly 15 minutes. Afterwards, we would run sites or mine.
After the change, we login and notice 4 wormholes connecting to us (almost every single night). We would spend an average of 1-1.5 hours closing wormholes/ensuring security to our Orca's whilst closing to run sites/mine for two hours, then go to bed. This was acceptable, as we would still D-Scan and watch for an extra Signature to alert us of a possible WH connecting to us.
We would average 150-300mil a day in income in our Wormhole depending on our activities, and split 5 ways doesn't amount to a whole lot.
Hyperion Expansion
Most changes to W-Space are fine, and are easy to adapt to, and would not change the content of what we are looking to get out of EvE, except for this particular change. This change, when paired with increasing the number of WSpace to WSpace WH's vastly, has a very negative impact on the type of Content we are looking to get.
This change means that we can no longer close unwanted WH's connecting to us. This could have been acceptable to us if we had to watch 1 extra wormhole while performing operations. However, when there are multiple WSpace to Wspace connections to us, the risk mitigation becomes far more difficult. We now need one set of cloaky eyes for every WH that connects to us for us to have some sort of security or early warning system.
Our corporation does not make enough ISK to risk fielding our avg 3bil isk fleet to earn income and enjoy the Content we are looking to get. Simply put: The potential risk is far too great vs the reward. We have been looking for days that can run Operations out of our wormhole when there are an acceptable amount of WH's connecting to us, but we haven't found any as of yet and as such, is impacting the content (and enjoyment of Wspace) that all of us in the Corp are looking for.
Hyperion Expansion Feedback
I believe most of this feedback is vastly negative because of the two changes coupled together. You have the Jump Mass distance, and the increased spawn rate of Wh-Wh connections. These changes together change the content of W-Space entirely as most corporations and/or alliances will not wish to Risk performing PvE operations in their respective wormholes because they cannot close the connections based on the Jump Mass change, and coupled with that there are so many WH's connecting to them.
The greatest impact of this change will be the small corporations (like us) that do not have the manpower or ability to throw up large fleets, or have the ISK to risk losing an Orca trying to close excess WH's needed to perform operations, or to help mitigate these changes. If we did, we would need a larger WH Class, which means more content we aren't looking particularly looking for. Also, the point of W-Space will be 90% PVP and 10% PvE, which is not what most people are looking to receive.
If you have no plans to change this feature at all, I would suggest reverting the vastly increased WH spawning in our systems so that the corporations are willing to adapt to just this change, and dealing with a Rogue wormhole 1-2 times a week vs 3-4 Rogue WH's every day. |
Lamhoofd Hashur
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:06:00 -
[1649] - Quote
By rereading the first three pages of this thread I was already able to acquire multiple posts to clarify why this change is a bad idea. Whether the other 80 are trolls or direct attack I don't want to discuss, however I do feel that we were first asked to give constructive feedback, an example was given that the post on page 1 by Traiori (post #5) was very useful. Can CCP therefore explain to me why we have to post this all over again, but this time more concise? Why was this not asked when the thread was started? And finally, why do say that such a constructive, still relatively elaborate post, is a good example of good feedback?
About the change itself, as I said I've seen multiple useful posts in only the first 3 pages of this thread. To make it easier why this change is bad I have put them in a pastebin for you: http://pastebin.com/0HKhbKYe . I am not arguing there are not more reason why it is bad, but the feedback already given should be valuable enough, especially when the community still thought the feedback was appreciated and would be used. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
644
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:17:00 -
[1650] - Quote
Iku Nergal wrote:After the change, we login and notice 4 wormholes connecting to us (almost every single night). We would spend an average of 1-1.5 hours closing wormholes/ensuring security to our Orca's whilst closing to run sites/mine for two hours, then go to bed. Amazing how you can give daily averages and speak of "almost every single night" when exactly one (1) night has elapsed since the change. . |
|
Iku Nergal
All Your Holes Are Belong To Us CriticaI Mass
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:22:00 -
[1651] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Iku Nergal wrote:After the change, we login and notice 4 wormholes connecting to us (almost every single night). We would spend an average of 1-1.5 hours closing wormholes/ensuring security to our Orca's whilst closing to run sites/mine for two hours, then go to bed. Amazing how you can give daily averages and speak of "almost every single night" when exactly one (1) night has elapsed since the change.
This change was implemented 1 expansion ago (one month ago), and as such, I can give an average of these results. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
249
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:25:00 -
[1652] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Iku Nergal wrote:After the change, we login and notice 4 wormholes connecting to us (almost every single night). We would spend an average of 1-1.5 hours closing wormholes/ensuring security to our Orca's whilst closing to run sites/mine for two hours, then go to bed. Amazing how you can give daily averages and speak of "almost every single night" when exactly one (1) night has elapsed since the change. I too was confused at first but then I went completely balls to the wall apeshit crazy and finished reading his post.
I'm a rebel like that. |
Naglerr
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:29:00 -
[1653] - Quote
So I spent an hour messing around in excel with ship masses and max velocities and was able to come up with this equation:
Distance from Hole (meters) = (Mass(kg)^coeffA * Velocity(m/s)^coeffB ) / CoeffC + 2500 m + random(0-2000 m)
Using that equation and keeping the jump distance a constant 5 km you could tweak the coefficients to produce all sorts of fun gameplay dynamics while at the same time allowing players to exercise some level of control over their environment by simply ensuring their ship is at a low velocity. I haven't found the "perfect" mix of interesting and safe, but something like this seems interesting to me:
coeffA = 0.6 coeffB = 0.85 coeffC = 550
EDIT: the above values produced a result in KM, they have been updated to give the result in meters
Surely a dynamic yet predictable system such as this or similar could have/could still be implemented to change things up. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
644
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:32:00 -
[1654] - Quote
Iku Nergal wrote: This change was implemented 1 expansion ago (one month ago), and as such, I can give an average of these results. The change involving the mass increase of LS-LS Wormholes also impacted the WH-WH connections we received inside our Wormhole.
Hm okay, the patch notes do not show anything related to this prior to Hyperion, but since I was away from the game during that time, I'll take your word for it.
. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
249
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:35:00 -
[1655] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Iku Nergal wrote: This change was implemented 1 expansion ago (one month ago), and as such, I can give an average of these results. The change involving the mass increase of LS-LS Wormholes also impacted the WH-WH connections we received inside our Wormhole.
Hm okay, the patch notes do not show anything related to this prior to Hyperion, but since I was away from the game during that time, I'll take your word for it. well to be fair it was iirc like a single line so easy enough to miss/forget |
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
22
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:42:00 -
[1656] - Quote
Iku Nergal wrote:Also, the point of W-Space will be 90% PVP and 10% PvE, which is not what most people are looking to receive.
Agree to your post except this.
W-Space will be even more empty because most of the w-space targets are wh residents.
Less wh entities (of all size) means less pvp for everyone.
|
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
175
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 15:51:00 -
[1657] - Quote
CCP right now |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 16:03:00 -
[1658] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote: Step 7: Wait for the next piece of trivially useless non-advice by someone. make sure it is less than 2 paragraphs long and has no reasoning, logic or critical analysis of its points. The more facetious the better.
Well, I've already repeated myself ad-nasueam on why the changes are bad (here and on the frigate wormhole thread). There are specific things that make it bad for k-space connections (not just the camping of highsec holes - for which you have as much disdain as me), but also regarding the inability to bring caps into null for fights on the k-space side of the hole. Given that it appears that they are at least stuck on the spawning distance change, fixing those two things would be good in and of themselves.
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 16:13:00 -
[1659] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Okay, so I came in a little more gently last time, because I know that there's quite a few people who don't like this particular change. A large proportion of our development staff also play the game, myself included. At times, I don't agree with changes that are being made. However, I do exactly what the vast majority of other people do when a change is made that I don't like - I adapt to what's happened and adjust how I play to suit. This thread was created over a month ago, and a big chunk of the valuable feedback has been drowned out by people ranting and abusing both CCP and eachother, hence why I asked for concise feedback in the Hyperion feedback thread. If you guys want to keep it here, feel free to do so, but don't complain if feedback gets removed because it's packed in with ranting and personal attacks. So, simple instruction for you guys out of your reaction to my previous post: Here are the forum rules. Follow them, or scroll down and read what happens when you break them. It's that simple. We have no problem with you guys voicing your concerns. In fact, I did the same for a decade as a player when I felt CCP had done something wrong. We do however have issues with people breaking the forum rules. Carry on discussing this. I'll point people here, and look at collecting feedback to send to development. However, don't break the forum rules. you know what stick that where the sun dont shine as well. I've been keeping up with the thread all day yesterday and have not seen 1 SINGLE PERSONAL ATTACK, disagreements to be sure, lots of strong emotions because so many of us feel our game play is getting shafted and we are being ignored. But you comment of breaking forum rules is completely off base. Take your BS elsewhere as it ain't welcome here. |
Ixianna Svartalfar
Fukushima Industries Spartan Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 17:18:00 -
[1660] - Quote
CCP Falcon, more than half this thread appears to be folks trying to give rational arguments about why or why not to implement this change. That is actually a reasonably large amount of potentially applicable commentary. All of that was before the changes were live on Tranquility, but after they were on Singularity.
The initial outrage was the result of changes being discovered after they were in the pipeline for implementation. When reasoned arguments were made in response to the Dev Blog post about everything (after the changes were already discovered) these changes were not directly responded to. Some changes about reducing the spawn distances did take place, however.
73 pages of this thread existed before the wormhole changes went live, and very little of that seems to have resulted in a response by CCP's representatives. Now the CSM member who is representing the players has responded, but much of that was limited before the changes went live (I suspect from a non-disclosure agreement). Now that people are responding to the changes on Tranquility you are trying to close this thread and ignore all the feedback and responses from the folks who saw what happened on the test server, gave opinions on that, and were largely ignored.
I did see someone mention "if this thread hits 80 pages" that something might happen. I suspect what happened is the players that composed most of the posts got fed up and left. That, or became so pissed off that they were ignored that a level of psychosis has been attained. Perhaps I am wrong here, but the folks who were trying to argue logically in the beginning are now just screaming and hurling insults. I suspect your company may need to rethink what communication is, and why it was your own actions that resulted in this behavior.
I just read 80 pages of suggestions, outrage, trolling, and hatred. Some of it was against CCP, some was just player infighting. (Game forums are known for this, of course, hence why I don't normally bother with them.) What is the point of a feedback thread where apparently no one reads or responds to it? Well, I guess I shouldn't say no one, I should say no one from the company who actually works on the game. Is there any incentive to respond to anything you ask us for feedback on after this? |
|
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
248
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 17:31:00 -
[1661] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Rroff wrote:Only as pointed out it largely doesn't address the issue(s) it was supposed to while having a largely negative aspect on day to day activities for the sake of mixing up the dynamic in some fringe cases. If the concerns of "safe" collapsing and frequency of collapsing are really such an issue there are much better ways to address that (technical considerations aside) while there are some potential ways this kind of mechanism could be used to mix up the meta a bit without impacting on the tedious day to day activities. With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections. I happen to like this thinking. Most people here apparently don't. I think they will change their mind eventually, or be replaced by people who embrace the new environment. But I could be wrong. Or maybe there was no plan at all and Fozzie just hates us, who knows ^^ This is exactly what I think, but I know some of my corpies don't and others who are even more vocal.
"People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections" is an erudite observation and speaks to what I believe is the intention of this change. People collapsing wormholes on a whim, for whatever reason be it rage-rolling for PvP or to stop people being able to PvP them (save for wandering holes) by critting or collapsing their static feels like it goes against the intended ethos of w-space.
Let's be honest with eachother, wandering holes were about the only random factor left in w-space. Everything else is known and in the case of serious players, mapped out to the nth degree. One shouldn't log in to w-space and be able to be blase about where one is, simply because the mechanics have become so well gamed. Holes are only open if the residents allow them to be, etc. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 17:42:00 -
[1662] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote: With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections.
....Except that rolling connections and "moving" your w-space home makes w-space unique. Having a web of persistent connections means w-space is becoming more like k-space and less unique. Hell we even got people camping W-space/Highsec holes like they were stargates now. WTF is up with that.
If you want a web of static connections there's tons of different varieties of k-space. If you want to exert control over systems go to nullsec and join a sov holding alliance.
I appreciate that you like these changes but you'd probably enjoy eve better in k-space with your sentiments, rather than basically saying "yeah its great that w-space is becoming more like k-space".
The rest of the community basically favors w-space staying like w-space. i.e., let players control outgoing connections to other places in New Eden. Don't let the game dictate how your w-space home is connected to the rest of Eve. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
74
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 17:49:00 -
[1663] - Quote
Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random? So double what the current variance is? Did you even know there even was a +/- 10% already in our calculations? Do you really think that will affect anything here? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1140
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:00:00 -
[1664] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random? So double what the current variance is? Did you even know there even was a +/- 10% already in our calculations? Do you really think that will affect anything here? Clearly she did not as previously pointed out, -+ 10% is 20 percent, so she has already what she wanted
Hopefully we can actually get Some one who actually has responsibility to make a decision read this forum thread and see what the effect on the community of this "delightful" change has been.
He may not be well pleased with the result.
Probably not what he expected.
Message to the decision Maker in question within CCP.
All the solutions to the self created problem are clearly explained within. Feedback has been clearly provided as requested.
If you need more information Please speak to the WH CSM. He may clarify any points.
I believe we have complied with the meaning of Feedback response as defined in the majority of dictionaries? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
20
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:08:00 -
[1665] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:Anthar Thebess wrote:Can we add random total mass to wormholes. Now it is just to easy - each WH have known total mass until it close. Can we put 20% random? So double what the current variance is? Did you even know there even was a +/- 10% already in our calculations? Do you really think that will affect anything here? Clearly she did not as previously pointed out, -+ 10% is 20 percent, so she has already what she wanted Hopefully we can actually get Some one who actually has responsibility to make a decision read this forum thread and see what the effect on the community of this "delightful" change has been. He may not be well pleased with the result. Probably not what he expected. Message to the decision Maker in question within CCP. All the solutions to the self created problem are clearly explained within. Feedback has been clearly provided as requested. If you need more information Please speak to the WH CSM. He may clarify any points. I believe we have complied with the meaning of Feedback response as defined in the majority of dictionaries? The sad part is I think fozzie may actually be that decision maker. The corporate structure in CCP isn't what normally takes places in most corporations and with the possibilty of CCP Seagul or Hilmar (spelling?) I'm not sure there is anyone else to appeal to. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:18:00 -
[1666] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote: With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections.
This is exactly what I think, but I know some of my corpies don't and others who are even more vocal. "People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections" is an erudite observation and speaks to what I believe is the intention of this change. People collapsing wormholes on a whim, for whatever reason be it rage-rolling for PvP or to stop people being able to PvP them (save for wandering holes) by critting or collapsing their static feels like it goes against the intended ethos of w-space. Let's be honest with eachother, wandering holes were about the only random factor left in w-space. Everything else is known and in the case of serious players, mapped out to the nth degree. One shouldn't log in to w-space and be able to be blase about where one is, simply because the mechanics have become so well gamed. Holes are only open if the residents allow them to be, etc.
Correct that the mechanics are well understood. But I think it is arrogant to say "rolling on a whim" goes against some "ethos of w-space". Rolling holes is basic to w-space culture. There are times when w-space dwellers have complained of being rolled out of a possible fight. No system is ever perfect. But the old system was very, very well done.
There was only one serious flaw to my mind, and that was the ability to cut off your w-space home from the rest of New Eden by collapsing all the connecting wormholes. That has always been a borderline exploit to me. I still would like to see something done about it, but the spawn/distance thing and all the random holes taken together are not the answer. It removes player control over how their w-space home is connected to New Eden. Players cannot any longer control the risk profile of their w-space system unless they are a large group. Even with a large group its still a pain in the ass to do even basic things to exert control over your w-space environment now. But small groups just completely got the shaft with Hyperion.
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
74
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:18:00 -
[1667] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Terrorfrodo wrote:Rroff wrote:Only as pointed out it largely doesn't address the issue(s) it was supposed to while having a largely negative aspect on day to day activities for the sake of mixing up the dynamic in some fringe cases. If the concerns of "safe" collapsing and frequency of collapsing are really such an issue there are much better ways to address that (technical considerations aside) while there are some potential ways this kind of mechanism could be used to mix up the meta a bit without impacting on the tedious day to day activities. With no reasons officially given, I assume that the intent is to discourage collapsing in general. This assumption is supported by the fact that we got a huge amount of additional connections to compensate. My conclusion is that someone wants us to stop collapsing holes and this someone thinks that it is better to have a more persistent web of connected systems instead of the countless islands of isolation we have now. People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections. I happen to like this thinking. Most people here apparently don't. I think they will change their mind eventually, or be replaced by people who embrace the new environment. But I could be wrong. Or maybe there was no plan at all and Fozzie just hates us, who knows ^^ This is exactly what I think, but I know some of my corpies don't and others who are even more vocal. "People are being forced to exert control over space instead of control over connections" is an erudite observation and speaks to what I believe is the intention of this change. People collapsing wormholes on a whim, for whatever reason be it rage-rolling for PvP or to stop people being able to PvP them (save for wandering holes) by critting or collapsing their static feels like it goes against the intended ethos of w-space. Let's be honest with eachother, wandering holes were about the only random factor left in w-space. Everything else is known and in the case of serious players, mapped out to the nth degree. One shouldn't log in to w-space and be able to be blase about where one is, simply because the mechanics have become so well gamed. Holes are only open if the residents allow them to be, etc. Holes used to be open only if they were permitted to remain in existence. In a C5 we always slammed every way out closed before we rolled the static. Once the static was rolled, the system was deemed as safe as it could be, and then we either engaged in PVE activities or started scouting the new static for targets. Regardless of what the corp intention was for the day, PVE or PVP, the first action was always to secure our space. Without that control the small 10 man corp couldn't maintain enough control and fight without huge risk for our little 8b ISK fleet.
Instances where this wasn't done always resulted in significant losses and overwhelming odds that could not be overcome. The reason for this? If we logged in after other entities already scanned and mapped all the holes, our intel was outdated and our efforts to move were simply and easily observed by cloaked scouts. At that point our fleet would be at the mercy of the enemy entities, and slaughters were occur. Closing those holes either forces the fight on our terms, forces the scouts to flee, or results in a faster, less coordinated fight for our enemies. It also prevents enemy backup from arriving from unexpected directions. Again, the times we did not adhere to this, things went very badly.
As to the new changes, last night went something like this: "Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
774
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:25:00 -
[1668] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: As to the new changes, last night went something like this: "Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.
Seen something a long the lines of "waiting for wh to collapse, gonna go play #insert name of another game#" a few times in chat today - only once from corp - which later lead to a situation where PVP didn't happen due to *frig hole* (neither fleet could have jumped to the other) . So far these changes look like a right mess. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
75
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 18:53:00 -
[1669] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: As to the new changes, last night went something like this: "Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.
Seen something a long the lines of "waiting for wh to collapse, gonna go play #insert name of another game#" a few times in chat today - only once from corp - which later lead to a situation where PVP didn't happen due to *frig hole* (neither fleet could have jumped to the other) . So far these changes look like a right mess. Yeah, if things don't calm down and stabilize I suspect WH space will empty out completely. I am waiting to see what happens, but at least I know it will be easy to leave W-space now, what with all these open holes to take our caps ou... oh, wait, half those are frigate-only. |
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth
166
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:20:00 -
[1670] - Quote
omg... i tad less of these frigate wormholes nobody will every really use would be nice.... i am at 4 in this single system here and there are about 20 sigs left to scan... please... what kind of rubbish is that. |
|
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
39
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 19:40:00 -
[1671] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: Instances where this wasn't done always resulted in significant losses and overwhelming odds that could not be overcome. The reason for this? If we logged in after other entities already scanned and mapped all the holes, our intel was outdated and our efforts to move were simply and easily observed by cloaked scouts. At that point our fleet would be at the mercy of the enemy entities, and slaughters were occur. Closing those holes either forces the fight on our terms, forces the scouts to flee, or results in a faster, less coordinated fight for our enemies. It also prevents enemy backup from arriving from unexpected directions. Again, the times we did not adhere to this, things went very badly.
As to the new changes, last night went something like this: "Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.
I would like to second all of this. The idea that corps are going to risk multiple billions of isk trying to run any sort of PVE with a grand central station of wormholes open is ludicrous. The whole "risk vs. reward" thing is so heavily favored in the risk department it's not even an argument.
Here is how our corp events went last night. Our scouts reported 5 wormholes 1 to a completely empty c5 one was our static ,1 to nullsec to (goonspace), one to lowsec and one to a c3. Since the c5 was completely empty of towers and scouted we decided to give the try mechanics first on that one. the orca took 20 seconds to get back and jump through. the dread took 50 seconds...... a minute sitting uncloaked in enemy space with a dread is a lifetime. After the streassful hole closer that took 3 times as long as normal we decided we had no way of rolling either the low sec or the null sec. A dread jump would be a guarantee death in either of those systems as it would only take a bat phone and a cyno to catch. Short of 30 battleship jumps which nobody was about to do we literally have no way of closing the WH now.. This all coupled with the increase in WH's in general so now we have wh's respawning at almost the rate we could even close them. End result: everyone cursed CCP starting thinking of ways to get out of the WH and logged off.
I fail to see how any of these changes generated any content considering you just killed an entire game play mechanic for the majority of the people who utilize it. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
644
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 20:17:00 -
[1672] - Quote
Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: Instances where this wasn't done always resulted in significant losses and overwhelming odds that could not be overcome. The reason for this? If we logged in after other entities already scanned and mapped all the holes, our intel was outdated and our efforts to move were simply and easily observed by cloaked scouts. At that point our fleet would be at the mercy of the enemy entities, and slaughters were occur. Closing those holes either forces the fight on our terms, forces the scouts to flee, or results in a faster, less coordinated fight for our enemies. It also prevents enemy backup from arriving from unexpected directions. Again, the times we did not adhere to this, things went very badly.
As to the new changes, last night went something like this: "Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.
I would like to second all of this. The idea that corps are going to risk multiple billions of isk trying to run any sort of PVE with a grand central station of wormholes open is ludicrous. The whole "risk vs. reward" thing is so heavily favored in the risk department it's not even an argument. Here is how our corp events went last night. Our scouts reported 5 wormholes 1 to a completely empty c5 one was our static ,1 to nullsec to (goonspace), one to lowsec and one to a c3. Since the c5 was completely empty of towers and scouted we decided to give the try mechanics first on that one. the orca took 20 seconds to get back and jump through. the dread took 50 seconds...... a minute sitting uncloaked in enemy space with a dread is a lifetime. After the streassful hole closer that took 3 times as long as normal we decided we had no way of rolling either the low sec or the null sec. A dread jump would be a guarantee death in either of those systems as it would only take a bat phone and a cyno to catch. Short of 30 battleship jumps which nobody was about to do we literally have no way of closing the WH now.. This all coupled with the increase in WH's in general so now we have wh's respawning at almost the rate we could even close them. End result: everyone cursed CCP starting thinking of ways to get out of the WH and logged off. I fail to see how any of these changes generated any content considering you just killed an entire game play mechanic for the majority of the people who utilize it.
this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Egg McMuff
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 20:32:00 -
[1673] - Quote
Wormhole's are now a mess, cheers CCP |
Tivika
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 20:39:00 -
[1674] - Quote
This patch So far has been such a let down. As a Wormhole dweller it is seriously going to kill any enjoyment I had for this game.
Points: - The Mass / distance change is going to make PVE in a WH a thing of the past. a. Nobody is going to Risk a Billion isk Capital ship closing a C5/C6 k162 anymore its too ridiculous b. Not every corp can do 20 BS jumps through every k162 it is too time consuming c. This has made every k162 to null a turkey shoot. If I was a Null Sec group I would Actively look for C5/C6 whs leading to the Big WH corps and sit a cloaked interdictor with cyno on it and wait for the free targets. If they use a Dread you can re-enforce till the cows come home, the c5/c6 guys used half the mass jumping through one-way and can't cap support anymore.
- already seen 3 WH corps leave C5 space and that's just personally through our C2 This is BAD! less active space is Horrible for Site spawning. If no one lives in the WH or PVE's the site the sites will collect in Dead systems and C5/C6 "large" corps are going to run out of home sites to Cap escalate. No sites no isk
And for BOB's Sake you Null sec people that DON'T understand WH life here is the Equivalent breakdown of what the Devs just did to WHs.
- No LOCAL chat at ALL - Add 3-4 stargates connections to ALL nullsec systems - No Cynos force all Caps to use stargates - No Ratting all rats and belts removed - No Pirate upgrades anymore all removed / live or die by the random ded /plex sites
If the Devs did all that to Null sec this Patch would you null Sec peeps be saying Adapt or GTFO? |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
28
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 20:56:00 -
[1675] - Quote
corbexx wrote: this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.
Just a few general comments none of which is particularly a reaction to anything you've said. I think the dichotomy between farmer and pvper is overdone. Everyone farms somewhere, sometime and in some way, or they buy plex and outsource the farming to someone else. W-space offers one opportunity to farm where you also find PVP - if this relationship starts breaking you end up with no reason to live in lots of w-space - if this is a side effect of trying to screw over farmers, then it is the wrong fix for the problem such as it is.
At some stage some of those smaller corps (especially in the lower end holes) are going to look at risk/reward, say screw that and go off and run incursions on alts or chain forsaken hubs in null and make isk some other way in order to fund PVP whether that be in w-space or elsewhere.
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
29
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:07:00 -
[1676] - Quote
Tivika wrote:This patch So far has been such a let down. As a Wormhole dweller it is seriously going to kill any enjoyment I had for this game.
Points: - The Mass / distance change is going to make PVE in a WH a thing of the past. a. Nobody is going to Risk a Billion isk Capital ship closing a C5/C6 k162 anymore its too ridiculous b. Not every corp can do 20 BS jumps through every k162 it is too time consuming c. This has made every k162 to null a turkey shoot. If I was a Null Sec group I would Actively look for C5/C6 whs leading to the Big WH corps and sit a cloaked interdictor with cyno on it and wait for the free targets. If they use a Dread you can re-enforce till the cows come home, the c5/c6 guys used half the mass jumping through one-way and can't cap support anymore.
- already seen 3 WH corps leave C5 space and that's just personally through our C2 This is BAD! less active space is Horrible for Site spawning. If no one lives in the WH or PVE's the site the sites will collect in Dead systems and C5/C6 "large" corps are going to run out of home sites to Cap escalate. No sites no isk
And for BOB's Sake you Null sec people that DON'T understand WH life here is the Equivalent breakdown of what the Devs just did to WHs.
- No LOCAL chat at ALL - Add 3-4 stargates connections to ALL nullsec systems - No Cynos force all Caps to use stargates - No Ratting all rats and belts removed - No Pirate upgrades anymore all removed / live or die by the random ded /plex sites
If the Devs did all that to Null sec this Patch would you null Sec peeps be saying Adapt or GTFO?
I saw one corp moving out as well. I probably would find some more moving out but we cant roll our static because we are connected to another big corp we dont have the numbers to fight and each of us knows whoever tries to roll it is going to get their rolling ships blobbbed. So we are just orbiting our pos's for the rest of the day.
|
Zappity
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1308
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:07:00 -
[1677] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Word. It is not "word". It is utterly ridiculous reasoning. Limiting feedback to people who think the current model is worth investing in limits you to the status quo. You should all be ashamed for falling for it.
Have you considered that one of the goals of change could be to get people who *don't* buy into the current model interested in the space? Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
129
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:08:00 -
[1678] - Quote
Interesting side note... as W-space is depopulating, T3 values are going to spike due to a lack of materials and manufacturers. Save your T3s, fly dirt cheap T2s instead until this mess gets sorted. Who knows, they may turn into rarities after a while.
Necharo Rackham wrote:corbexx wrote: this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.
Just a few general comments none of which is particularly a reaction to anything you've said. I think the dichotomy between farmer and pvper is overdone. Everyone farms somewhere, sometime and in some way, or they buy plex and outsource the farming to someone else. W-space offers one opportunity to farm where you also find PVP - if this relationship starts breaking you end up with no reason to live in lots of w-space - if this is a side effect of trying to screw over farmers, then it is the wrong fix for the problem such as it is. At some stage some of those smaller corps (especially in the lower end holes) are going to look at risk/reward, say screw that and go off and run incursions on alts or chain forsaken hubs in null and make isk some other way in order to fund PVP whether that be in w-space or elsewhere. Many of those smaller corps have already made the decision to leave. Some of them may be gone permanently, from W-space and the game. Losing the last frontier of space we could stake a claim in can call our own means losing our game. I am not okay with being forced to rent from some Null holding corp, paying my effort to pay their SOV bill.
W-space was not great, but it worked. It was working better than any other area of the game. Now it doesn't. I hope someone is taking note of that. If changes don't roll back before my subs run out, I think I may be done with EVE for good. Betrayal factor feels a little too high.
I once regarded EVE as the best example of a game that works through interaction with it's players. Guess you showed me a thing or three. |
Tivika
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:13:00 -
[1679] - Quote
Necharo Rackham wrote:corbexx wrote: this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.
Just a few general comments none of which is particularly a reaction to anything you've said. I think the dichotomy between farmer and pvper is overdone. Everyone farms somewhere, sometime and in some way, or they buy plex and outsource the farming to someone else. W-space offers one opportunity to farm where you also find PVP - if this relationship starts breaking you end up with no reason to live in lots of w-space - if this is a side effect of trying to screw over farmers, then it is the wrong fix for the problem such as it is. At some stage some of those smaller corps (especially in the lower end holes) are going to look at risk/reward, say screw that and go off and run incursions on alts or chain forsaken hubs in null and make isk some other way in order to fund PVP whether that be in w-space or elsewhere.
A-Men brother, Everyone living in WH space Pvp's weather they want to or not. But even the Pure PVP eve player has to get his isk from somewhere, PVP does not provide the internet space ships. |
VeronicaKell
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:15:00 -
[1680] - Quote
Well. This **** sucks. Can Confirm. |
|
VeronicaKell
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:16:00 -
[1681] - Quote
We are all sitting here in a Mexican stand off with TLC because neither side will roll and neither side trusts the other's numbers enough to ensure a blob doesn't happen. |
Luft Reich
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:24:00 -
[1682] - Quote
Dearest CCP,
I have been watching the forums and reading peoples responses and your reaction to this fiasco since day one. Before I get into the details about what I can think could be done, since apparently you would enjoy some constructive feedback because you claim there has been none, which is dim whited and entirely untrue, I would like to tell you a bit about my self to show I have some experience in the topic, something you have not.
I have been a member of WH space for about two years, I started when I only had a few million skill points and have lived here ever since that point. I've been through a number of corps experiencing small gang and large fleet wormhole combat. In real life I have a Doctorate in Social Psychology, the study of groups of people, their reactions to topics, etc etc. I am also a businessman, who worked very closely with my fellow businessmen to found what is now a Multi-Million dollar law firm. Thus I feel I have some experience in trying to help solve this fiasco you have dug yourself into.
First I would like to address you CCP on your behavior on these forums that were built on the foundation of encouraging player feedback in this player driven game, something your CEO and the entire CCP Team prides itself on. But, every time CCP Fozzie or even worse, CCP Falcon, a community manager, posts in this thread it shows myself and every other player the exact opposite of what CCP prides itself on, a player driven game where CCP listens to it's players. You request we post in another feedback thread as if this thread is not good enough, or the thread that pre-dated this one is not sufficient enough to satisfy you. CCP is a business, your actions reflect how the public look upon you, and if an outsider would open up the Wormhole sub-thread and look at how CCP was responding to the thread, would he or she be satisfied and think to himself, "Man, those CCP Dev's, they really do work for the players". Of course they wouldn't, and you must remember this.
CCP, you ask us to be professional on the forums. Some of us of course break these rules, using bad language, racist remarks, of course that is unacceptable, but players getting angry at CCP and calling members of CCP out for the lack of feedback is completely understandable. Locking, banning, closing, removing posts critiquing the actions by CCP only shows weakness in the eyes of the players as you clearly can not handle feedback, much like a child.
"I might be a horrible troll on the forums sometimes" -CCP Falcon
That is CCP Falcon saying he is a troll, the community manager saying he is a troll. One must remember this is a business, and saying you are a troll....what do you think that makes us as players think of you as, or how we view you? Not a professional look.
Moving on from the lack of good presentation to the public audience in the forums, lets delve into what we can do ingame, we being CCP. Again, CCP Falcon states that he and many others play the game. I find this believable, but definitely not in any active wormhole space groups. The changes that hit Tranquility in Hyperion is concrete evidence of this. CCP, I understand what you are trying to do, I really do. CCP Fozzie has said it before, I know you guys had good intentions to create more content with the mass change and the frigate wormholes, but when your customers say No! you have to throw away that idea (or critique it to make customers happy) because in the end we are the customers and the customers should always come first.
So I have talked alot, but where is the solution? Remove it, completely. You should not feel obligated to fill the void of a bad idea with another feature. You are thinking to yourself right now, "We spent long hours designing this" well I'll work for days to prepare a report for lawyers on the best strategy to win a case, if they say no, I first try to convince them that my proposal will work, but if they still don't agree I have to rewrite my proposal because that's what they are paying to me to do.
One last thing before I end this painful report. I want numbers, stats, graphs of all sorts on how this change has affected wormhole space. If you CCP have the audacity to ignore the players for this long, atleast show us where you are coming from with the fanfare of "This change is for the better". Because as of right now, that fanfare of great change has yet to show itself. I want to see real results, hard numbers on everything you planned to affect with this change. If you projected Frigate kills to go up, I want to see a graph on it. Expected PvE activity to go down? Want to see numbers on it. Things like this CCP help ensure that we has customers are not in the dark as you at CCP develop these new features. At this moment, you at CCP have alot of talk, I keep hearing about this fanfare of greatness, but it's more like a musical illiterate person telling me about a great band that I have never heard of before. So give us some numbers, good or bad, we should at least be entitled to that.
I expect this to be struck down, I welcome this as it only reinforces that CCP is worried.
Have a great day! -Luft |
VeronicaKell
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:33:00 -
[1683] - Quote
Luft Reich wrote:Dearest CCP, I have been watching the forums and reading peoples responses and your reaction to this fiasco since day one. Before I get into the details about what I can think could be done, since apparently you would enjoy some constructive feedback because you claim there has been none, which is dim whited and entirely untrue, I would like to tell you a bit about my self to show I have some experience in the topic, something you have not. I have been a member of WH space for about two years, I started when I only had a few million skill points and have lived here ever since that point. I've been through a number of corps experiencing small gang and large fleet wormhole combat. In real life I have a Doctorate in Social Psychology, the study of groups of people, their reactions to topics, etc etc. I am also a businessman, who worked very closely with my fellow businessmen to found what is now a Multi-Million dollar law firm. Thus I feel I have some experience in trying to help solve this fiasco you have dug yourself into. First I would like to address you CCP on your behavior on these forums that were built on the foundation of encouraging player feedback in this player driven game, something your CEO and the entire CCP Team prides itself on. But, every time CCP Fozzie or even worse, CCP Falcon, a community manager, posts in this thread it shows myself and every other player the exact opposite of what CCP prides itself on, a player driven game where CCP listens to it's players. You request we post in another feedback thread as if this thread is not good enough, or the thread that pre-dated this one is not sufficient enough to satisfy you. CCP is a business, your actions reflect how the public look upon you, and if an outsider would open up the Wormhole sub-thread and look at how CCP was responding to the thread, would he or she be satisfied and think to himself, "Man, those CCP Dev's, they really do work for the players". Of course they wouldn't, and you must remember this. CCP, you ask us to be professional on the forums. Some of us of course break these rules, using bad language, racist remarks, of course that is unacceptable, but players getting angry at CCP and calling members of CCP out for the lack of feedback is completely understandable. Locking, banning, closing, removing posts critiquing the actions by CCP only shows weakness in the eyes of the players as you clearly can not handle feedback, much like a child. "I might be a horrible troll on the forums sometimes" -CCP Falcon That is CCP Falcon saying he is a troll, the community manager saying he is a troll. One must remember this is a business, and saying you are a troll....what do you think that makes us as players think of you as, or how we view you? Not a professional look. Moving on from the lack of good presentation to the public audience in the forums, lets delve into what we can do ingame, we being CCP. Again, CCP Falcon states that he and many others play the game. I find this believable, but definitely not in any active wormhole space groups. The changes that hit Tranquility in Hyperion is concrete evidence of this. CCP, I understand what you are trying to do, I really do. CCP Fozzie has said it before, I know you guys had good intentions to create more content with the mass change and the frigate wormholes, but when your customers say No! you have to throw away that idea (or critique it to make customers happy) because in the end we are the customers and the customers should always come first. So I have talked alot, but where is the solution? Remove it, completely. You should not feel obligated to fill the void of a bad idea with another feature. You are thinking to yourself right now, "We spent long hours designing this" well I'll work for days to prepare a report for lawyers on the best strategy to win a case, if they say no, I first try to convince them that my proposal will work, but if they still don't agree I have to rewrite my proposal because that's what they are paying to me to do. One last thing before I end this painful report. I want numbers, stats, graphs of all sorts on how this change has affected wormhole space. If you CCP have the audacity to ignore the players for this long, atleast show us where you are coming from with the fanfare of "This change is for the better". Because as of right now, that fanfare of great change has yet to show itself. I want to see real results, hard numbers on everything you planned to affect with this change. If you projected Frigate kills to go up, I want to see a graph on it. Expected PvE activity to go down? Want to see numbers on it. Things like this CCP help ensure that we has customers are not in the dark as you at CCP develop these new features. At this moment, you at CCP have alot of talk, I keep hearing about this fanfare of greatness, but it's more like a musical illiterate person telling me about a great band that I have never heard of before. So give us some numbers, good or bad, we should at least be entitled to that. I expect this to be struck down, I welcome this as it only reinforces that CCP is worried. Have a great day! -Luft
What this guy said. |
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:40:00 -
[1684] - Quote
Zappity wrote: Have you considered that one of the goals of change could be to get people who *don't* buy into the current model interested in the space?
That may be the goal - Fozzie was unable or unwilling to say - however some things are kind of predictable. If a particular bit of w-space has so many connections in it that the pve content can't be run by less than overwhelming numbers, then only large groups are going to live there. If you can't sustain large groups in those sorts of spaces then very few people will live there.
It makes as much sense as saying "Let's make more of null into great wildlands". |
Slicr
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:41:00 -
[1685] - Quote
Durzel wrote:People will deal with this like they've dealt with everything else. People who quit will be replaced by others more accepting of the change.
The whole "sensor overlay will kill PvP' thing was supposed to be the killing blow for wormholes, and - guess what - it wasn't. Nor will this be.
Granted it affects people's established ways of playing the game, and negatively affects some more than others, but that's what wormholes are about - the unknown. The fact fixed statics, and rage-rolling, etc was ever possible is to be honest a failure on the part of CCP in not designing a system that was robust enough to keep things random. There's very little random about W-space now, which is why (previously at least) people critted or collapsed holes solo with alts just so they could bear with near total safety.
People who wouldn't fight if they saw you are unchanged by this new behaviour, so any argument about lost fights is imo misplaced. Previously if you rolled into someone and they don't want to fight you they would either POS up or log off (no change) or collapse you out - again in relative safety. Now they can't do that, so they either give up bearing for the day if you roll into them - or they fight. Some of them might just risk it, especially if they think you've gone away....
People being able to roll womholes every 60 seconds or so with just themselves and an alt or two while the rest of the corp twiddles their thumbs because they can't even contribute anything of value was always broken. And as for "small corps/one man bands in high class wormholes", why are they entitled to live there without needing to commit anything?
edit: Also - people talking about "rolling on my own" with capitals completely po-faced? If you talked about rolling around in caps in null with no support and why it should be risk free you'd be laughed off the forums, but because it's w-space it should be allowed?
Well written - thanks for posting this
I believe in being Pro-Active as Opposed to Reactive. Reactive tends to be more costly in time and money.
|
Egg McMuff
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 21:47:00 -
[1686] - Quote
So what's next for wormhole space??? it is like a swiss fecking cheese... more holes than golf course in each system.
I can't believe you have done this to wormhole space but hey on a positive note you should have more people paying for plex rather than using isk (cus we wont be running sites half as much) Big clap for this magnificent patch now you can all stand up at the next meeting and turn around and pat each other on the back.... |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
646
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 22:25:00 -
[1687] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Word. It is not "word". It is utterly ridiculous reasoning. Limiting feedback to people who think the current model is worth investing in limits you to the status quo. You should all be ashamed for falling for it. Have you considered that one of the goals of change could be to get people who *don't* buy into the current model interested in the space?
you obviously don't understand irony . It was a quote from mittens used on some one from the cfc. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Vorick Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 22:25:00 -
[1688] - Quote
Quote:Over the years I have seen some players drawn some unfortunate and incorrect conclusions from this story. The belief that CCP is angry about this unintended behavior or that we are trying to somehow eject players from wormhole space to bring it more in line with the original pre-release vision. This belief couldnGÇÖt be further from the truth and betrays a regrettable misunderstanding about how CCP approaches GÇÿunintendedGÇÖ player behavior in EVE.
-CCP Fozzie http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/into-the-known-unknowns/?_ga=1.86357528.1232967168.1369607985
Fact: Wormhole space is depopulating. Most corps now consider it too risky to live in WH space. No one is willing to roll holes anymore, people are being forced out of WHs.
Wow... so many things I can call Fozzie, so many delicious, bannable things. |
Blood Spine
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 22:34:00 -
[1689] - Quote
Right just a mid sized corporations view on the Wormhole changes.
We live in a C5 today it has been Swiss cheese all day which is nice for PvP reasons so no problems yet...... Site running time has rolled around again hurray! now its time to collapse all these wormholes two Nulls two C4s a C3 and a C2 so Completely forgetting about the Jump Mass changes I grab my orca and go to work.
Land at 0 jump through whats this? I laned 12K off the hole took forever to slow boat back by the time i got within jump range I thought bugger this **** i'm gonna go get a BS so
1st actual point Orcas are now pretty useless as a T2 hauler can hold nearly as much and is safe to use also orcas will no longer be used for hole rolling as the time it takes to make two jumps negates the time saving of using the orca. (Yes i know they can mining boost but that's all there good for now)
So we GRIND down the rest of the wormholes and then whats this again?
MORE sodding wormholes which takes us even longer to roll and this is even before the boring 2-3 hours site running needed to afford PEW.
Basicly I would like to give CCP a bloody great sodding clap for buggering wormholes beyond belief
Also no me and my corp wont be moving out of wormhole space as we are going to stay here out of shear SPITE for CCP obviously making wormhole impossible to live in, something which I'm starting to think they did on purpose as all of the feedback from wormholes on this issue has been bloody well ignored.
|
Vorick Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 22:39:00 -
[1690] - Quote
Blood Spine wrote:Also no me and my corp wont be moving out of wormhole space as we are going to stay here out of shear SPITE for CCP obviously making wormhole impossible to live in, something which I'm starting to think they did on purpose as all of the feedback from wormholes on this issue has been bloody well ignored. Now now, CCP Fozzie assured us that they dont mind us living in wormholes, promise. |
|
Blood Spine
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
15
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 22:49:00 -
[1691] - Quote
Vorick Oramara wrote:Blood Spine wrote:Also no me and my corp wont be moving out of wormhole space as we are going to stay here out of shear SPITE for CCP obviously making wormhole impossible to live in, something which I'm starting to think they did on purpose as all of the feedback from wormholes on this issue has been bloody well ignored. Now now, CCP Fozzie assured us that they dont mind us living in wormholes, promise.
Might be nice if they showed that a little more by taking the massive uproar of "**** NO!" from wormhole space and listening to it!
|
Vorick Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
6
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 22:51:00 -
[1692] - Quote
CCP should just man up, nut up and put local in WHs. Then there would be NO confusion as to exactly what the plan is. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3731
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 22:55:00 -
[1693] - Quote
Vorick Oramara wrote:CCP should just man up, nut up and put local in WHs. Then there would be NO confusion as to exactly what the plan is. ^I loled :D sad thing is, that seems to be exactly where it's heading. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
Vorick Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
8
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 23:06:00 -
[1694] - Quote
I am of course going in the face of my favorite saying:
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."
Though I prefer replacing stupidity with incompetence, it gives it that little bit more oomph.
ps. it's Hanlon's razor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlon's_razor) |
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
389
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 23:19:00 -
[1695] - Quote
These changes make me glad my corp was forced to evac a couple of months back due to inactivity and RL obligations.
The smaller wspace entities will probably give up and the larger ones will put up with it until their patience has been worn thin by them.
Considering wspace has never really been densely populated, this change isn't a step in the wrong direction, it's a rocket assisted takeoff and subsequent crash landing in it. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
778
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 23:23:00 -
[1696] - Quote
The acrobatics closing wormholes tonight were hilarious, but very very wrong, a naglfar should not be able to do that.
Doesn't unduly affect us other than its going to get old and boring very very fast but I can see a lot of smaller entities definitely moving out due to this. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1146
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 23:25:00 -
[1697] - Quote
We truly need a way for CCP to withdraw these changes, whilst retaining some degree of face and self respect.
Enough has been said regarding our opinions of the people involved, and persisting with that will not allow a graceful withdrawal, it would be just encouraging them to leave things and keep their head down, so as they are not more exposed.
What has happened cannot be undone, regarding the relationship damage. But it can be reduced. Currently, with every hour it is increasing.p
However accepting that the changes have releases an absolute storm of unforeseen consequences, it is essential that this is dealt with before the damage to wormhole space and it's residents, becomes permanent.
Once people are gone and abandoned their pos and self destructed the ships it is impossible or to difficult to move out, they will never return. It's not exactly like people are queuing to move in is it?
If CCP admit that things have turned out unexpectedly, and roll things back. Fast, then they will gain a modicum of respect back.
I hope that everyone understands that even well meaning behaviour and the best thought out plans, can be a mistake sometimes, we are all human, and all fallible.
None of us is without fault in this world.
If they are courageous enough to admit that things have not worked as planned, and roll things back, then we should have the decency to appreciate that, and help them get things right next time, we have an excellent CSM rep, and experienced and knowledgeable players to help if they ask AND listen with an open mind.
Hopefully they will act courageously. Hopefully soon. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
VeronicaKell
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
11
|
Posted - 2014.08.27 23:50:00 -
[1698] - Quote
VeronicaKell wrote:We are all sitting here in a Mexican stand off with TLC because neither side will roll and neither side trusts the other's numbers enough to ensure a blob doesn't happen.
....and I died. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
551
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 00:05:00 -
[1699] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Well, that was the biggest douche manouvre from CCP Falcon.
Here's the CCP Playbook on PR.
Step 1: Get high on drugs and hire CCP Fozzie. Step 2: Wake up with a hangove / CCP Fozzie implementing patches, or whatever. Who knew meth was so powerful? Hire CCP Falcon. Step 3; implement changes blind on the test server. Step 4; When people blow up about it, sheepishly admit you are "testing" it, even though you got hopped up on meth and let Fozzie bork everything. Step 5: Ignore 75 page thread. Step 6; Deploy the Falcon. He will go into the thread and disparage everyone who has been constructive, and tell them the feedback thread is not the correct feedback thread. Step 7: Wait for the next piece of trivially useless non-advice by someone. make sure it is less than 2 paragraphs long and has no reasoning, logic or critical analysis of its points. The more facetious the better. Step 8: Deploy the Falcon again. he will pick the most useless and facile feedback and promise to pass it on to the developers. Don't worry, it won't at all seem arrogant and dismissive of everything else. Nope, not one bit. No one will sit there and think "douchewad" silently under their breath. Make sure he uses an emoticon - it makes customers more gruntled. Gruntled customers are better than disgruntled customers!
Yep. You've been schooled in PR. This brought a tear to my eye.
Beautiful.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 00:11:00 -
[1700] - Quote
Buds you should know better. If we can't live in wspace anymore (since we won't be able to fund our nasty pvp habits) Who will come to live where we used to? Who is being benefited by see-see-pee? |
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 00:12:00 -
[1701] - Quote
Who's gonna provide for the T3 production? Who's gonna farm all the blue loot? |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
779
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 00:13:00 -
[1702] - Quote
^^ Given these changes shift the balance towards power blocs that I'm guessing is pretty much what will happen and where the t3 production will come from - welcome to nullsec 2.0. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 00:14:00 -
[1703] - Quote
I've been telling this since the very beggining, than the naysayers were, "nah, frig holes are gonna be awesome", or "you can jump frigs through conventional holes anyway" #rekt. all of us. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
551
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 00:31:00 -
[1704] - Quote
Was this a change that was always going to go through no matter what feedback was received?
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
255
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 00:31:00 -
[1705] - Quote
Rei Moon wrote:I've been telling this since the very beggining, than the naysayers were, "nah, frig holes are gonna be awesome", or "you can jump frigs through conventional holes anyway" #rekt. all of us.
Edit> seems like a standard retaliation for the goons thread. Ahem, was that before or after this post
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4902295#post4902295
Quote:Alright ladies and gents, get your tinfoil hats ready coz this one is a pretty good one. Pure unadulterated tinfoil hattery and Grrr Goons with a solid amount of conspiracy, you have been warned. (Conspiracy theory stuff is fun, you don't have to believe in it to make a convincing case. Also bored.)
**This assumes a great deal of competency and is the primary reason why I don't necessarily believe any of this. I'm a fan of the saying; 'don't attribute to malice that witch can be attributed to incompetence'.
Now I've heard people say that CCP Fozzie has a hard on for mitani and that the Goons want to take over/ruin eve. I don't normally put much stock in that but lets look at the last batch of Wormhole specific targeted changes and events that have taken place with this in mind.
- Discovery scanner. I'm kinda on the fence regarding if this was planned or not or if it was just a knock on effect but the general consensus was that it did make farming safer. Lets call this one inconclusive.
- Grav site removal. Pretty much killed WH Mining for the most part. NS mining is better anyways, everyone knows that, yey infinate minerals and local!
- Soon after these changes the whole Goons in WH space thing happened and they got kicked out, yey us!
- The API stats removal. This was a pretty big one and with a single simple change the biggest baddest and arguably most dangerous WH corp decided to leave WH space. Kings of log off traps and no slouches with rage rolling it'd be hard to find any C5-6 corp that hasn't lost at least one farming fleet, or system for that matter, to these nutters. I know we did.
- Increased WHs from Null and LS. As a nullie I've been part of at least one attempt at killing a hole rolling fleet (Got foiled by a DC of our inside scout) and we've killed plenty of wormholers just from the WHs spawning in our own and allied systems.
- Effectively un-collapsible frig holes going to, you guessed it, null. A 50 man AF fleet will easily kill a farming fleet and Goons sure do love their Harpy fleets. They will also decimate lower class fleets, both PvP and PvE. Also Wolf Holes.
- Second static in C4s. Now we don't know what they are yet but if a decent amount of them go to Null then this will seal the fate of any C4 farmers that manage to escape the frig holes. Easy as pie to get a big BS fleet in there and then just titan bridge additional BS/Ishtars to the static once hole control has been established to evict farmers. Lets call this one inconclusive till we know what statics there will be. (Fozzie did say there would be a pattern to it)
- The big one, the Mass distance rolling. Any big or small corps still managing to live in WH space after all the above ways for Null (any not just Goons) to kill them up will leave WH space from pure frustration as more and more smaller corps (Plankton I believe were Mitani's words) leave and rage rolling for PvP or borderline safe PvE becomes impossible.
So what's the end result? A barely inhabited and very safe WH space perfect for seeding a couple dozen Goon farming corps and RMTing Mitani a nice big house and shiny new car.
Ok so that last bit is over the top but I did warn you to bring your tinfoil, this one's a doozy Lol (I worked really hard on this, give me a Dinsdales out of 10 score pls)
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
551
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 01:13:00 -
[1706] - Quote
Feel free to join me on Jita undock in my protest against CCP actions.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
113
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 01:21:00 -
[1707] - Quote
corbexx wrote: Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid....
To iterate on that thought.... The current situation feels like having a virgin trying to design a condom and then ignoring you when you try to explain that "No, a hole on both sides won't do the trick". |
Tivika
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 01:25:00 -
[1708] - Quote
Tinfoil hat time:
Do you think they removed WH api removal 1 patch before this one was to remove the Evidence of WH evacuations from the eyes of the community?
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
551
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 01:33:00 -
[1709] - Quote
Tivika wrote:Tinfoil hat time:
Do you think they removed WH api removal 1 patch before this one was to remove the Evidence of WH evacuations from the eyes of the community?
Woah, CCP do think.
Mind = blown.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
255
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 01:35:00 -
[1710] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Tivika wrote:Tinfoil hat time:
Do you think they removed WH api removal 1 patch before this one was to remove the Evidence of WH evacuations from the eyes of the community?
Woah, CCP do think. Mind = blown. doubtful, assigns far to much competence than what I have ever seen from ccp. |
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
551
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 01:37:00 -
[1711] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Tivika wrote:Tinfoil hat time:
Do you think they removed WH api removal 1 patch before this one was to remove the Evidence of WH evacuations from the eyes of the community?
Woah, CCP do think. Mind = blown. doubtful, assigns far to much competence than what I have ever seen from ccp. That's the joke.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
krazyskillz
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
5
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 02:42:00 -
[1712] - Quote
After I updated my game I realized I'm living in Null sec with no local. |
Zappity
Aliastra Gallente Federation
1309
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 03:00:00 -
[1713] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Zappity wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Word. It is not "word". It is utterly ridiculous reasoning. Limiting feedback to people who think the current model is worth investing in limits you to the status quo. You should all be ashamed for falling for it. Have you considered that one of the goals of change could be to get people who *don't* buy into the current model interested in the space? you obviously don't understand irony . It was a quote from mittens used on some one from the cfc. Are you saying that you do, or do not, agree with the concept that only people who live in a space should comment on it's future? I don't understand. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
652
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 04:00:00 -
[1714] - Quote
Zappity wrote:corbexx wrote:Zappity wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Word. It is not "word". It is utterly ridiculous reasoning. Limiting feedback to people who think the current model is worth investing in limits you to the status quo. You should all be ashamed for falling for it. Have you considered that one of the goals of change could be to get people who *don't* buy into the current model interested in the space? you obviously don't understand irony . It was a quote from mittens used on some one from the cfc. Are you saying that you do, or do not, agree with the concept that only people who live in a space should comment on it's future? I don't understand.
I'll happily listen to anyone, but at the same time i'll also call people out if they're talking **** about stuff they have no idea about, which sadly in this thread is often nullsec people.
Now if you want to let me know what you think of these changes i'm more than happy to discus it. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 04:01:00 -
[1715] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Aureus Ahishatsu wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: Instances where this wasn't done always resulted in significant losses and overwhelming odds that could not be overcome. The reason for this? If we logged in after other entities already scanned and mapped all the holes, our intel was outdated and our efforts to move were simply and easily observed by cloaked scouts. At that point our fleet would be at the mercy of the enemy entities, and slaughters were occur. Closing those holes either forces the fight on our terms, forces the scouts to flee, or results in a faster, less coordinated fight for our enemies. It also prevents enemy backup from arriving from unexpected directions. Again, the times we did not adhere to this, things went very badly.
As to the new changes, last night went something like this: "Did they just change something? We have 7 wormholes open." After scouting them, the scouts report activity in 2 of them that endangers anyone trying to roll under the new mechanics. Some members reship, follow a chain into lowsec, and go looking for small gang PVP. Rest of the corp (PVE and industry guys) logged out, bored, to go play something else.
I would like to second all of this. The idea that corps are going to risk multiple billions of isk trying to run any sort of PVE with a grand central station of wormholes open is ludicrous. The whole "risk vs. reward" thing is so heavily favored in the risk department it's not even an argument. Here is how our corp events went last night. Our scouts reported 5 wormholes 1 to a completely empty c5 one was our static ,1 to nullsec to (goonspace), one to lowsec and one to a c3. Since the c5 was completely empty of towers and scouted we decided to give the try mechanics first on that one. the orca took 20 seconds to get back and jump through. the dread took 50 seconds...... a minute sitting uncloaked in enemy space with a dread is a lifetime. After the streassful hole closer that took 3 times as long as normal we decided we had no way of rolling either the low sec or the null sec. A dread jump would be a guarantee death in either of those systems as it would only take a bat phone and a cyno to catch. Short of 30 battleship jumps which nobody was about to do we literally have no way of closing the WH now.. This all coupled with the increase in WH's in general so now we have wh's respawning at almost the rate we could even close them. End result: everyone cursed CCP starting thinking of ways to get out of the WH and logged off. I fail to see how any of these changes generated any content considering you just killed an entire game play mechanic for the majority of the people who utilize it. this is it people are happy with a acceptable about of risk but this is way past what people find acceptable so just wont risk it at all.
I just want to say that you inherited this job at a very difficult time, and many of us feel for you. Keep your head up. |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 04:13:00 -
[1716] - Quote
krazyskillz wrote:After I updated my game I realized I'm living in Null sec with no local.
dont forget, no cynos. |
Alundil
Isogen 5
652
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 04:20:00 -
[1717] - Quote
Tivika wrote:Tinfoil hat time:
Do you think they removed WH api removal 1 patch before this one was to remove the Evidence of WH evacuations from the eyes of the community?
The API hasn't shown jumps in wspace for a few years now. The NPC kill endpoint that was removed most recently doesn't really have a lot of bearing on wormhole evacuations.
So no. That wasn't it.
I'm right behind you |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
32
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 04:33:00 -
[1718] - Quote
I find it very disappointing That ccp Refused to listen to a entire community within there game and just basically said f you guys were doing it anyway..
They said they wanted feed back and when it was not the Feed back they wanted they just ignored us.
They will not give us the content we are looking for and are making changes to things that did not need changed and will reduce content in w space.
Very sad in my view as a lot of us long term pilots are getting very discouraged with the game.
We scan for hours and find nothing.. we Have chains that are 30-50 wormholes deep and we find nothing. If We do find a wh with a tower there's normally no one logged in or if they are there afk pos spinning.
So ccp has reduced w space content and yet they Buff the one thing that drove most explores From wh space back to hs... to run Incursions.. Why did incursions need a buff. They are at fault for Driving up The Prices on Most market Stuff and Plex (don't get me started on that subject) And reducing Pilots going into wh space to Kill sleepers for isk.
This is just a bad play ccp very bad. All this was is Change for the sake of Change.. Not well thought through nor did you Listen to Your one experts in the fields of Wormholes..The pilots that live there.
W space Pilots are not your Normal Null/LS Pilots..They are very Smart and Creative. We know when we are being ignored and placated by ccp Fozzie. I just Wanted to Shout at him to STFU and stop paying us lip service. It was obvious he did not want to answer real Questions and Was distracted by what ever else he was doing..
Fix this or you will slowly lose more subscription and account over the next year or so and further reduce your profits and player base.. Its a domino effect. The more pilots your lose in w space will cause a chain reaction of more w space pilots leaving due to no one left to hunt and fight with..
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 04:37:00 -
[1719] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:I find it very disappointing That ccp Refused to listen to a entire community within there game and just basically said f you guys were doing it anyway..
They said they wanted feed back and when it was not the Feed back they wanted they just ignored us.
They will not give us the content we are looking for and are making changes to things that did not need changed and will reduce content in w space.
Very sad in my view as a lot of us long term pilots are getting very discouraged with the game.
We scan for hours and find nothing.. we Have chains that are 30-50 wormholes deep and we find nothing. If We do find a wh with a tower there's normally no one logged in or if they are there afk pos spinning.
So ccp has reduced w space content and yet they Buff the one thing that drove most explores From wh space back to hs... to run Incursions.. Why did incursions need a buff. They are at fault for Driving up The Prices on Most market Stuff and Plex (don't get me started on that subject) And reducing Pilots going into wh space to Kill sleepers for isk.
This is just a bad play ccp very bad. All this was is Change for the sake of Change.. Not well thought through nor did you Listen to Your one experts in the fields of Wormholes..The pilots that live there.
W space Pilots are not your Normal Null/LS Pilots..They are very Smart and Creative. We know when we are being ignored and placated by ccp Fozzie. I just Wanted to Shout at him to STFU and stop paying us lip service. It was obvious he did not want to answer real Questions and Was distracted by what ever else he was doing..
Fix this or you will slowly lose more subscription and account over the next year or so and further reduce your profits and player base.. Its a domino effect. The more pilots your lose in w space will cause a chain reaction of more w space pilots leaving due to no one left to hunt and fight with..
Personally I will give them until Archeage releases to either put in modules that significantly reduce this jump distance or they completely scrub the change. Doesn't happen by then I will move on.
Just my 2 isk.... |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:01:00 -
[1720] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Vorick Oramara wrote:CCP should just man up, nut up and put local in WHs. Then there would be NO confusion as to exactly what the plan is. ^I loled :D sad thing is, that seems to be exactly where it's heading.
Yeah dude, we got "stargates" now. Why ******* stop halfway at this point. |
|
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
242
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:10:00 -
[1721] - Quote
Zappity wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Word. It is not "word". It is utterly ridiculous reasoning. Limiting feedback to people who think the current model is worth investing in limits you to the status quo. You should all be ashamed for falling for it. Have you considered that one of the goals of change could be to get people who *don't* buy into the current model interested in the space?
These changes will not interest the people previously uninterested into moving into w-space. They will make it more esoteric and unfriendly to newer/smaller corps.
Status quo, you keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means...
Here lets take a learning trip and look it up. Go go magic google dictionary.
Quote:sta-+tus quo
/-êst-üt+Ös -êkw+ì,-êstat+Ös/
noun
noun: status quo; noun: statusquo
the existing state of affairs, especially regarding social or political issues.
Read that? Good, it means exactly and just that. It is neither inherently bad or good. The status quo of the sky is that is blue, the status quo of the sea is that it is both blue and wet. All change is not growth, as all movement is not forward.
You like many of the people in this thread who have been called out on lack of actual knowledge/relevant experience with both the game environment and mechanics being changed have latched onto this "shake up the meta" nonsense like corporate executives adopting a new buzzword.
You do not ask Johnny everyones opinion on how to construct a new aircraft carrier, you don't talk to a general to find out the best way to market fine art reproductions. W-space is no different. Peoples opinions who do not live/interact with w-space are by the truest sense of the word irrelevant to this discussion. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:12:00 -
[1722] - Quote
Rei Moon wrote:Who's gonna provide for the T3 production? Who's gonna farm all the blue loot?
Who do you think? ..... ...
. Goonswarm |
krazyskillz
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:22:00 -
[1723] - Quote
corbexx wrote:
I'll happily listen to anyone, but at the same time i'll also call people out if they're talking **** about stuff they have no idea about, which sadly in this thread is often nullsec people.
Now if you want to let me know what you think of these changes i'm more than happy to discus it.
Thanks! I don't like the changes, been living in WH space for a long time and I VERY much dislike the mass based distances. I also do not like the increased spawn rate of WH's, not to say I don't like the increase, I just don't like how much it was increased by.
1. Remove mass based distances 2. Decrease WH spawn rate so every system isn't Grand Central Station (but keep it slightly higher then it was before). 3. Less 000 holes, don't need 5 per system.
I think most people can agree with this. |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:37:00 -
[1724] - Quote
krazyskillz wrote:corbexx wrote:
I'll happily listen to anyone, but at the same time i'll also call people out if they're talking **** about stuff they have no idea about, which sadly in this thread is often nullsec people.
Now if you want to let me know what you think of these changes i'm more than happy to discus it.
Thanks! I don't like the changes, been living in WH space for a long time and I VERY much dislike the mass based distances. I also do not like the increased spawn rate of WH's, not to say I don't like the increase, I just don't like how much it was increased by. 1. Remove mass based distances 2. Decrease WH spawn rate so every system isn't Grand Central Station (but keep it slightly higher then it was before). 3. Less 000 holes, don't need 5 per system. I think most people can agree with this.
There is nothing wrong with the increased wormhole spawns or frigate wormholes.
The frigate wormholes are pretty much just an uhhh ok whatever thing. The increased wormhole spawns are cool but when you combine it with the stupid mass distance it makes them just dumb.
Everything about this expansion was awesome but CCP just completely ruined the changes with this stupid mass jump distance.....
We have been waiting years for changes. They give us increased wormholes spawns and everyone is like AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They changed the system effects and everyone is like AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! They add in frigate wormholes and everyone is like meh, ok, could be cool. Then they add mass based wormhole jumps and everyone is like uhhhhh, is this a joke? you serious?
Yet the posts they respond to our feedback is the system effect changes and "micro WHs"
Good job discussing the changes with are all okay with and ignoring us with the only change the entire community does not like. Awesome business strategy! |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2137
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:50:00 -
[1725] - Quote
86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:52:00 -
[1726] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming.
Go to bed troll. |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
243
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:53:00 -
[1727] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming.
86 pages and still nobody null forum alts implying WH produce incoming even approaching the scale to which moo goo and renting does. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 05:56:00 -
[1728] - Quote
Zappity wrote:corbexx wrote:Zappity wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:corbexx wrote:Here's the hard truth: If you don't live in W-space, and you've never lived there, your opinion about how W-space should or shouldn't be is worse than irrelevant: you are the virgin offering advice on how to get laid. Like a virgin, you probably genuinely believe that your opinion matters and that the mere fact that you have no personal experience on the topic shouldn't invalidate your opinion, while everyone else listening to you is quietly shaking their head. Word. It is not "word". It is utterly ridiculous reasoning. Limiting feedback to people who think the current model is worth investing in limits you to the status quo. You should all be ashamed for falling for it. Have you considered that one of the goals of change could be to get people who *don't* buy into the current model interested in the space? you obviously don't understand irony . It was a quote from mittens used on some one from the cfc. Are you saying that you do, or do not, agree with the concept that only people who live in a space should comment on it's future? I don't understand.
The thing is that W-space is a thing of its own. ItGÇÖs just randomly connected with the rest of the universe and, moreover, it doesnGÇÖt have any navigational binding points others than planets/moons and other bases than POSes. That fact makes an opinion of anyone who doesnGÇÖt have any practical experience of living there (yes, living, not GÇ£IGÇÖve found a shortcut to hi-sec!GÇ¥ passing by), infinitely less significant than opinions of ppl who actually live there. From this point, I see CorbexxGÇÖs comparison being pretty accurate, even though it might be formulated a bit too disturbing for your delicate mind. I do believe that a virgin might come with a bright idea on how to get laid, but it still should be estimated with taking into account the lack of practical experience of its author, to say the least. As the all the types of K-space have the same basic navigational rules and principles of making binding points, I consider a hi-sec crawlerGÇÖs ideas about nullsec more relevant than nullsec dwellerGÇÖs opinion about W-space. Another thing I want you to realize is that this thread is for feedback. Feedback is supposed to come from people whose lives are directly affected by the change, isnGÇÖt it? And your post is neither an idea nor a feedback, itGÇÖs a sorry attempt to raise a word game, in order to compromise the guy who was elected for CSM, thus, admitted to be one of the most experienced W-dwellers and, indirectly, compromise the whole community. Yes, the community is enraged enough to become disturbed easily and people like you, starting arguments about someoneGÇÖs reply being too hostile or something, instead discussing the change itself, just lead to more offtopic, irrelevant arguments, trolling, insults and other deviations of that kind. That gives CCP a cause to ignore their own feedback threads like this, stating that it is overflown with GÇ£trolling, ranting, etcGÇ¥. Yes, I blame people like you for bringing nothing here but more salt on an open wound. Now, I would like to ask you to go back to your GÇ£frigs onlineGÇ¥ in FW space and donGÇÖt come here until you happen to have a real idea, I have faith that you actually can have some. Even then IGÇÖd recommend to start a dedicated thread in GÇ£Features and IdeasGÇ¥ subsection, where we can form our opinion about your GÇ£newbroGÇ¥ dreams taking your real experience (or lack of it) into account. And stay away from this thread where, I repeat, ppl who are directly affected by the change, are supposed to leave their feedback. Thanks in advance. P.S.: This message is addressed not only to Zappity, but also to all people w/o practical WH experience. IGÇÖve just replied to her personally, bcs other posts are usually more obviously trollish, while this one is a perfect example of how good intentions without wisdom given by experience, lead to hell.
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:03:00 -
[1729] - Quote
They have been ignoring this thread for months, who cares....
Only responses they have given is "we are monitoring this thread" |
Katerin Archer
Total. Fractal Multiversity
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:04:00 -
[1730] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming.
Before CCP admits it officially, I'm not going to belive that null ratting injects less ISK into economy than blue loots do. I do know how you, null crawlers, grind your anoms for "ticks". |
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
133
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:08:00 -
[1731] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming. Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that the 5% of us who live in wormholes all drive gold plated mini-Avatars with full faction and DEDspace fits cause we have just so much ISK we can't find anything else to do with it all. I also forgot that we, the 5% making fat ISKies, were the major driving force in everything economic in this game, cause no one flies any of that T2 garbage, right? Jita laments our arrival, at the same time the buyers sing our praises as everything drops 2% in value when the weekend hits and our goods hit the markets.
It's GOOD to be in a WORMHOLE! I just LOVE the CAREBEAR life we have! WOOO! |
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
102
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:15:00 -
[1732] - Quote
Ppl went to WHs to have "their own space".
Ppl even wrote that many time.
That is nothing than a carebears wet dream - farm as you like, control access to "your" space and fly caps any time without danger. |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:18:00 -
[1733] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:Ppl went to WHs to have "their own space".
Ppl even wrote that many time.
That is nothing than a carebears wet dream - farm as you like, control access to "your" space and fly caps any time without danger.
Please do not comment in the wormhole threads when you have no idea what you are talking about.
I don't know crap about mining and industry so I do not go onto your forums and talk about game mechanic changes... |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:22:00 -
[1734] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling. I'll pass this on directly to development. Falcon, something else that was brought up at the Wormhole townhall that got kind of pushed to one side. It was recieved somewhat well by the community. Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer. Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes. Inversion of the new mass rule is just a gimmick put out there by those that still want to collapse easily. The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Winthorp
2649
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:25:00 -
[1735] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that the 5% of us who live in wormholes all drive gold plated mini-Avatars with full faction and DEDspace fits cause we have just so much ISK we can't find anything else to do with it all.
its true actually, i am for these changes and i am stupidly WH rich, look at my new arms too... I do love my gold pod/plated avatar. |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
244
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:36:00 -
[1736] - Quote
Saisin wrote:...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately.
Except all the change really does is make it more tedious.
All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:37:00 -
[1737] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote: Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that the 5% of us who live in wormholes all drive gold plated mini-Avatars with full faction and DEDspace fits cause we have just so much ISK we can't find anything else to do with it all.
its true actually, i am for these changes and i am stupidly WH rich, look at my new arms too... I do love my gold pod/plated avatar.
My super carrier can beat up your plated avatar!!! |
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
31
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 06:47:00 -
[1738] - Quote
Hatshepsut IV wrote:Saisin wrote:...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately. Except all the change really does is make it more tedious. All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long
It DOES make it more dangerous, the problem is when two major wormhole corps roll into each other and have uneven fleet comps to make a fun battle, what happens next? Everyone just sits there with their thumbs up their ass and waits for the other group to try and roll so they can just blob them.
So what happens? Nothing.... We all just sit around and play some other game until the wormhole despawns.
Thanks for the new awesome WH content CCP!
|
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
58
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 07:19:00 -
[1739] - Quote
You know what change CCP made a while back that is awesome now?
Deep Space Transports.
Makes moving everything out of the wormhole to stash in a station before we let our accounts expire much, much easier.
So thanks for that. |
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
167
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 07:32:00 -
[1740] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:Saisin wrote:...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately. Except all the change really does is make it more tedious. All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long It DOES make it more dangerous, the problem is when two major wormhole corps roll into each other and have uneven fleet comps to make a fun battle, what happens next? Everyone just sits there with their thumbs up their ass and waits for the other group to try and roll so they can just blob them. So what happens? Nothing.... We all just sit around in a pos or log off and play some other game until the wormhole despawns. Thanks for the new awesome WH content CCP!
If they are not on wormhole, why not take in a cloaky hauler and anchor drag bubbles? And then when they come to remove them jump sniping nados with mjd. Snipe jump back home and mjd away. Or something else that may actually work. You are acting like its pre-hyperion when you know its not. No pity from me in this matter. Both you and tlc have better pilots than acting like a standoff is the only alternative. ~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
|
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 07:45:00 -
[1741] - Quote
calaretu wrote:
If they are not on wormhole, why not take in a cloaky hauler and anchor drag bubbles? And then when they come to remove them jump sniping nados with mjd. Snipe jump back home and mjd away. Or something else that may actually work. You are acting like its pre-hyperion when you know its not. No pity from me in this matter. Both you and tlc have better pilots than acting like a standoff is the only alternative.
Exactly... and even a standoff still allows to farm in the wh while closely watching the neighbor... it is not like the only option is to log off... "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
251
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 08:39:00 -
[1742] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:Saisin wrote:...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately. Except all the change really does is make it more tedious. All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long It DOES make it more dangerous, the problem is when two major wormhole corps roll into each other and have uneven fleet comps to make a fun battle, what happens next? Everyone just sits there with their thumbs up their ass and waits for the other group to try and roll so they can just blob them. So what happens? Nothing.... We all just sit around in a pos or log off and play some other game until the wormhole despawns. Thanks for the new awesome WH content CCP! The problem with your argument imo is that whilst I agree you can have a stalemate, in either case it's the aversion to risk that is the problem rather than the mechanics. If you won't engage because of ~the blob waiting to pounce~ then what difference does it make if you can jump in and be in jump range on the other side, besides the fact it means you can disengage at will?
Ultimately you either have subcaps to support your caps in order for them to be able to roll, or you don't. If you presuppose that in any encounter with a major wormhole corp that there's a hidden blob somewhere waiting to pounce then chances are you weren't going to fight anyway. Why would you? These mechanics don't change whether the blob exists or not. Likewise, the other party might think you have a blob waiting too.
Also your argument about two opposing sides sat either side of a wormhole is basically exactly the same predicament that fights in k-space already deal with. The side that is set up on the gate has the advantage of establishing their position, and the other guys who jump in end up in random locations on the other side, potentially out of rep range, etc.
Wormholes are obviously somewhat different in mechanics because of the mass element, and polarisation, but wormholes also have no aggression timers so anyone in range of it can deaggress at any time if they're about to die. The idea that you should be able to jump in a capital solo and - barring another cloaked capital on the other side - be able to jump back whenever you feel like at no risk is out of whack with the rest of Eve where making choices have repercussions - be they aggression timers, or being too far out to escape immediately. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 08:50:00 -
[1743] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Hatshepsut IV wrote:Saisin wrote:...The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately. Except all the change really does is make it more tedious. All's that's really dangerous to is CCP's bottom-line as bored people don't stick around long It DOES make it more dangerous, the problem is when two major wormhole corps roll into each other and have uneven fleet comps to make a fun battle, what happens next? Everyone just sits there with their thumbs up their ass and waits for the other group to try and roll so they can just blob them. So what happens? Nothing.... We all just sit around in a pos or log off and play some other game until the wormhole despawns. Thanks for the new awesome WH content CCP! The problem with your argument imo is that whilst I agree you can have a stalemate, in either case it's the aversion to risk that is the problem rather than the mechanics. If you won't engage because of ~the blob waiting to pounce~ then what difference does it make if you can jump in and be in jump range on the other side, besides the fact it means you can disengage at will? Ultimately you either have subcaps to support your caps in order for them to be able to roll, or you don't. If you presuppose that in any encounter with a major wormhole corp that there's a hidden blob somewhere waiting to pounce then chances are you weren't going to fight anyway. Why would you? These mechanics don't change whether the blob exists or not. Likewise, the other party might think you have a blob waiting too. Also your argument about two opposing sides sat either side of a wormhole is basically exactly the same predicament that fights in k-space already deal with. The side that is set up on the gate has the advantage of establishing their position, and the other guys who jump in end up in random locations on the other side, potentially out of rep range, etc. Wormholes are obviously somewhat different in mechanics because of the mass element, and polarisation, but wormholes also have no aggression timers so anyone in range of it can deaggress at any time if they're about to die. The idea that you should be able to jump in a capital solo and - barring another cloaked capital on the other side - be able to jump back whenever you feel like at no risk is out of whack with the rest of Eve where making choices have repercussions - be they aggression timers, or being too far out to escape immediately.
Mass is still the issue. Even jumping one cap into the hole under the old mechanics was dangerous. Several corps made a habit of jumping a cap through before you knew they were there and cloaking it. Then as soon as your cap jumped through, they would jump back to trap you on their side. Between the spawn ranges and the fact that a wormhole doesn't populate until something jumps through it, jumping a cap into a hole with active people means your cap is as good as lost.
Deliberately flushing billions down the drain is not courage. Choosing not to flush it down the drain is not cowardice. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2140
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 08:51:00 -
[1744] - Quote
Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming. Go to bed troll.
And 86 pages of personal attacks .. ie trolling.
Fozzie pointed out for you in the wormhole townhall that wormhole capital escalations blow away anything else as far as isk/hour. Under old mechanics people have done this in complete safety.
So you have top isk/hour in the safest area of the game. Why would any sane dev allow this? ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Winthorp
2649
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 08:57:00 -
[1745] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: complete safety.
Are you high right now or is HS NPC space warping your brain? |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 09:00:00 -
[1746] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming. Go to bed troll. And 86 pages of personal attacks .. ie trolling. Fozzie pointed out for you in the wormhole townhall that wormhole capital escalations blow away anything else as far as isk/hour. Under old mechanics people have done this in complete safety. So you have top isk/hour in the safest area of the game. Why would any sane dev allow this?
If it was so completely safe, I wonder how BU and QE got all those captial escalation fleets on their killboards.
Does the "isk per hour" calculation figure in the time it takes to seal off the wormhole, make bookmarks, scan out a route to high sec and take into account the risk of getting all that loot out without getting ganked along the way? There is WAY more time involved than many people seem to think. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2140
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 09:01:00 -
[1747] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Sentamon wrote: complete safety. Are you high right now or is HS NPC space warping your brain?
Keep crying.
CCP will have to deal with their mudflation problems, and all the whining in the world won't stop them.
W-Space isn't ThE problem but it is A problem, and I'm looking forward to reading everyone elses tears in the future. SOV nullsec will be best tears I hope. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Winthorp
2649
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 09:07:00 -
[1748] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Winthorp wrote:Sentamon wrote: complete safety. Are you high right now or is HS NPC space warping your brain? Keep crying. CCP will have to deal with their mudflation problems, and all the whining in the world won't stop them. W-Space isn't ThE problem but it is A problem, and I'm looking forward to reading everyone elses tears in the future. SOV nullsec will be best tears I hope.
I am not crying at all, i am in support of these changes.
But you son are delusional and high with your lack of factual information. but well your an NPC troll alt so nothing to see here.... |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
257
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 09:40:00 -
[1749] - Quote
all the theory crafting in the world isnt going to magically force people to stay or move into into whs if its just plain not worth it. the numbers will speak for themselves.
besides, the graphs ccp gave us showed that c6 space far outstripped the other classes of wormholes combined in regards to npc kills. wouldnt it make far more sense to just focus on cap escalations if whspace was *actually* causing an econimic problem?
nullsec so far outstrips wh space in isk generation its hilarious. the isk in any one hole is finite at any one point and its impossible to cap escalate farm your static because you can only get one dread in before you lose the ability to bring them back.
the isk in an upgraded nullsec system is infinate and instantly accessible. no setup time, safe local, blue donut, etc etc etc.
but no please go on on how whs are the problem. |
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:01:00 -
[1750] - Quote
Sentamon wrote: Fozzie pointed out for you in the wormhole townhall that wormhole capital escalations blow away anything else as far as isk/hour. Under old mechanics people have done this in complete safety.
So you have top isk/hour in the safest area of the game. Why would any sane dev allow this?
This is a really bad analysis.
Post Hyperion, large corps leaving in C5/C6 are still able to close every connexion and farm safe but small/mid corps cannot play pve in wspace anymore.
If the issue was really isk/hour, just remove escalation, or reduce the available escalation per anomaly.
Blowin' up all the core wh mecanics is the dumbest solution for this issue (if this is an issue and i don't think it is). |
|
Gosti Kahanid
GANOR Deep Space Explorers GANOR INC.
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:06:00 -
[1751] - Quote
I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.
For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD. It-¦s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn-¦t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.
So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don-¦t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH... |
Nox52
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:12:00 -
[1752] - Quote
Gosti Kahanid wrote:I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.
For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD. It-¦s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn-¦t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.
So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don-¦t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH...
Am I the only one who thinks of dreads with overdrives and MWDs and it just doesn't feel right on the inside?
(other than the fack that dreads with overdrives will die pretty fast....) |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1153
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:19:00 -
[1753] - Quote
Tivika wrote:Tinfoil hat time:
Do you think they removed WH api removal 1 patch before this one was to remove the Evidence of WH evacuations from the eyes of the community?
I seriously doubt that, It may have that side effect, but we will be able to see with our own eyes the effect as we all scan out the POS in the systems we connect to, and can easily tell next time we connect by the pos skeletons left behind, and with all the new holes it should only be a day or two between visits.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1153
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:33:00 -
[1754] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming. Go to bed troll. And 86 pages of personal attacks .. ie trolling. Fozzie pointed out for you in the wormhole townhall that wormhole capital escalations blow away anything else as far as isk/hour. Under old mechanics people have done this in complete safety. So you have top isk/hour in the safest area of the game. Why would any sane dev allow this?
That is like looking at someone eating an oyster in a restauraunt in real life, seeing how much it costs and saying my god! he eats ten thousand pounds an hour in food! There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
124
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:41:00 -
[1755] - Quote
Gosti Kahanid wrote:I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.
For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD. It-¦s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn-¦t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.
So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don-¦t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH...
true, one can adapt. Ask yourself however, what is the benefit of the change then really? All it does is making it more time consuming and annoying.
Its not you get a fight out of it in case you get caught pants down with your nano-nag slowboating back to the wh... would be a fast and easy, yet for you painful gank with a hefty (and retardedly stupid looking) lossmail on your side.
gf?
no.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1154
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:54:00 -
[1756] - Quote
I need to address this issue of where one is being told to adapt.
Firstly if one lives in an area one has chosen, because they like the view or whatever, a major change ocurrs. Then they find that randomly the house is buried in rotting fish. There is no way of preventing it, it is just bad luck. Your turn today, the Luck space faries have decided, tough!
If somehow you could somehow dodge it with skill, planning, tactics, well that would be better. But it is only luck. You cannot adapt to luck apart from avoiding being where luck applies.
Would one choose to remain in that neighbourhood?
People are speaking with their actions, we are a small subset posting here, most do not even try to persuade CCP any more. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 10:55:00 -
[1757] - Quote
Tivika wrote: ... - Add 3-4 random stargates connections to ALL nullsec systems ....
If the Devs did all that to Null sec this Patch would you null Sec peeps be saying Adapt or GTFO?
There fixed that for you ;). |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
551
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 11:14:00 -
[1758] - Quote
Still waiting for that response.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
38
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 11:27:00 -
[1759] - Quote
Durzel wrote: The problem with your argument imo is that whilst I agree you can have a stalemate, in either case it's the aversion to risk that is the problem rather than the mechanics. If you won't engage because of ~the blob waiting to pounce~ then what difference does it make if you can jump in and be in jump range on the other side, besides the fact it means you can disengage at will? 1
Ultimately you either have subcaps to support your caps in order for them to be able to roll, or you don't. 2 If you presuppose that in any encounter with a major wormhole corp that there's a hidden blob somewhere waiting to pounce then chances are you weren't going to fight anyway. Why would you? These mechanics don't change whether the blob exists or not. Likewise, the other party might think you have a blob waiting too.
Also your argument about two opposing sides sat either side of a wormhole is basically exactly the same predicament that fights in k-space already deal with. The side that is set up on the gate has the advantage of establishing their position, and the other guys who jump in end up in random locations on the other side, potentially out of rep range, etc. 3
Wormholes are obviously somewhat different in mechanics because of the mass element, and polarisation, but wormholes also have no aggression timers so anyone in range of it can deaggress at any time if they're about to die. 4 The idea that you should be able to jump in a capital solo and - barring another cloaked capital on the other side - be able to jump back whenever you feel like at no risk is out of whack with the rest of Eve where making choices have repercussions - be they aggression timers, or being too far out to escape immediately.
1. That's how you probe your opponent, why do we have to go balls to the walls every time? Is that something you enjoy doing. 2. If you don't have an escape route every fight is "Little Bighorn". Is that something you enjoy doing. 3. You can still cyno caps in and out and you don't have mass problems to worry about. 4. WH trademark feature it doen't guarantee safety just a mechanic that can be defeated with careful planning and permits reinforcement denying if used smartly.
NEXT! |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
137
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 11:52:00 -
[1760] - Quote
In Jita after the patch...
xxx wrote:[11:34:16] [11:34:16] Xxx > o/ [11:34:17] Bleedingthrough > hey [11:34:26] Bleedingthrough > are you a WH guy too? [11:34:32] Xxx > part time [11:34:36] Xxx > im a wh thief [11:34:41] Xxx > i rob corporations [11:34:42] Bleedingthrough > haha [11:34:50] Xxx > ive stolen over 200 bil from them [11:34:57] Xxx > prob close to 300 [11:35:19] Bleedingthrough > we had a corp thieve once [11:35:26] Bleedingthrough > have your alts been that? [11:36:09] Xxx > nah [11:36:10] Bleedingthrough > so you hate the changes too? [11:36:19] Xxx > mate [11:36:33] Xxx > http://i.imgur.com/cXBudFN.jpg[11:36:37] Xxx > this is a c4c4 wh [11:36:40] Xxx > go ******* figure [11:37:04] Xxx > you know how long it takes in a c4c4 to get a good exit [11:37:05] Bleedingthrough > oh nice some free machs [11:37:12] Xxx > and you have to use orca 3 rounds [11:37:31] Xxx > its goddamn impossible to do now [11:37:39] Xxx > you will lose several orcas every time [11:37:43] Xxx > before you get exits [11:37:51] Xxx > its ******** [11:37:56] Bleedingthrough > heheh [11:38:01] Xxx > and if you wait you need to bring a ton of fuel in [11:38:05] Bleedingthrough > so even the corp thieves hate this [11:38:07] Xxx > no hole control against 33man corp [11:38:29] Xxx > i won several hole control fights against 20 times bigger numbers [11:38:31] Bleedingthrough > are you OK with me posting this convo on the forums? [11:38:42] Xxx > if you ommit name [11:38:51] Bleedingthrough > will do [11:39:02] Bleedingthrough > this is epic. [11:39:39] Xxx > its basic mechanics being broken [11:41:28] Xxx > no sane person likes this [11:41:36] Xxx > sure i can now camp highsec entrances [11:41:44] Xxx > but its still ******* stupid [11:41:57] Xxx > free kills dont warrant this kind of **** [11:42:16] Xxx > not to mention the camp highsec entrances is still risk free [11:42:27] Xxx > since a vigilant can sit on 0 and just scramweb everything [11:42:38] Xxx > if something goes wrong jump out and you are safe [11:42:54] Xxx > meanwhile CCP makes black holes kiting holes [11:43:05] Xxx > but who cares when all kite ships still spawn on 0 [11:43:23] Xxx > if it was inverted like traiori proposed this would be a great change [11:43:29] Xxx > now its just complete gabage [11:44:38] Xxx > on the other hand plex prices will drop because so many WH guys will quit [11:45:04] Xxx > almost none of them pays rl cash [11:45:08] Xxx > and neither do i [11:45:30] Xxx > i will never pay rl cash again considering how CCP is shitting on literally everything i do [11:49:30] Bleedingthrough > thanks for sharing your thoughts ...
|
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Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
251
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 11:58:00 -
[1761] - Quote
Probably pointless posting this as it'll get lost in the white noise, but hey ho...
As these mass based jump changes are now live, CCP should give some serious thought to making it so that jumps from at least highsec use the old system of landing you in jump range on the other side.
Why? Because people jumping into wormholes for the first time and feeling "safe" is imho what draws a lot of new risk-averse people there. A big problem Eve has is the perception of risk - a lot of people will never venture into lowsec to PVE because they imagine that every gate has a camp on the other side. It doesn't matter that statistically the chances of landing in a gate camp vs the number of high/low entry points is very low - it only matters that it can happen, and that if it does happen to them then it's quite likely they'll lose their ship through not being able to get back to the gate.
With wormholes I genuinely feel like CCP got the "you're in jump range when you come in" aspect of it perfect the first time around, and matches the original intent. People jump in, explore a little bit, make some ISK and (try to) get back out before anyone sees them. Rendering highsec wormhole camps ineffectual by having it so that prey can jump in and immediately leave was a big part of this perception of safety.
It's no wonder then that so many people took T3s etc into wormholes when the same people wouldn't dare set foot in lowsec, which in mechanics terms (local, no bubbles, etc) is safer on paper. It's because they could manage the risk, and it wasn't disproportionate. Having whether you lose your ship or not when you click "Jump" come down to a roll of the dice is not a good motivator for naturally risk averse people.
So tl;dr - CCP ought to consider making k-space to w-space holes use the normal mechanics on inbound jumps, to encourage exploration by people who eschew low & null k-space because of the normal gate jump mechanics. |
Durzel
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
251
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 12:01:00 -
[1762] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:In Jita after the patch... xxx wrote:[11:34:16] [11:34:16] Xxx > o/ [11:34:17] Bleedingthrough > hey [11:34:26] Bleedingthrough > are you a WH guy too? [11:34:32] Xxx > part time [11:34:36] Xxx > im a wh thief [11:34:41] Xxx > i rob corporations [11:34:42] Bleedingthrough > haha [11:34:50] Xxx > ive stolen over 200 bil from them [11:34:57] Xxx > prob close to 300 [11:35:19] Bleedingthrough > we had a corp thieve once [11:35:26] Bleedingthrough > have your alts been that? [11:36:09] Xxx > nah [11:36:10] Bleedingthrough > so you hate the changes too? [11:36:19] Xxx > mate [11:36:33] Xxx > http://i.imgur.com/cXBudFN.jpg[11:36:37] Xxx > this is a c4c4 wh [11:36:40] Xxx > go ******* figure [11:37:04] Xxx > you know how long it takes in a c4c4 to get a good exit [11:37:05] Bleedingthrough > oh nice some free machs [11:37:12] Xxx > and you have to use orca 3 rounds [11:37:31] Xxx > its goddamn impossible to do now [11:37:39] Xxx > you will lose several orcas every time [11:37:43] Xxx > before you get exits [11:37:51] Xxx > its ******** [11:37:56] Bleedingthrough > heheh [11:38:01] Xxx > and if you wait you need to bring a ton of fuel in [11:38:05] Bleedingthrough > so even the corp thieves hate this [11:38:07] Xxx > no hole control against 33man corp [11:38:29] Xxx > i won several hole control fights against 20 times bigger numbers [11:38:31] Bleedingthrough > are you OK with me posting this convo on the forums? [11:38:42] Xxx > if you ommit name [11:38:51] Bleedingthrough > will do [11:39:02] Bleedingthrough > this is epic. [11:39:39] Xxx > its basic mechanics being broken [11:41:28] Xxx > no sane person likes this [11:41:36] Xxx > sure i can now camp highsec entrances [11:41:44] Xxx > but its still ******* stupid [11:41:57] Xxx > free kills dont warrant this kind of **** [11:42:16] Xxx > not to mention the camp highsec entrances is still risk free [11:42:27] Xxx > since a vigilant can sit on 0 and just scramweb everything [11:42:38] Xxx > if something goes wrong jump out and you are safe [11:42:54] Xxx > meanwhile CCP makes black holes kiting holes [11:43:05] Xxx > but who cares when all kite ships still spawn on 0 [11:43:23] Xxx > if it was inverted like traiori proposed this would be a great change [11:43:29] Xxx > now its just complete gabage [11:44:38] Xxx > on the other hand plex prices will drop because so many WH guys will quit [11:45:04] Xxx > almost none of them pays rl cash [11:45:08] Xxx > and neither do i [11:45:30] Xxx > i will never pay rl cash again considering how CCP is shitting on literally everything i do [11:49:30] Bleedingthrough > thanks for sharing your thoughts ... How is "I can't roll holes solo / solo+alts anymore in safety" a valid rebuttal for these changes? Comments like these effectively reinforce CCP's attitude that people have been manipulating connections too easily. |
Gosti Kahanid
GANOR Deep Space Explorers GANOR INC.
60
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 12:04:00 -
[1763] - Quote
Nox52 wrote:Gosti Kahanid wrote:I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.
For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD. It-¦s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn-¦t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.
So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don-¦t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH... Am I the only one who thinks of dreads with overdrives and MWDs and it just doesn't feel right on the inside? (other than the fack that dreads with overdrives will die pretty fast....)
Did you ever see the fittings on closing-Battleships? It-¦s about bringing the right tool to the right situation, not about how you should fit your ship in other Situations. Sure, if you get into a fight you will die faster when you-¦re using a Armor-Dread, but how was the Situation before the change? We lost more than one time a closing-crew because a enemy was sitting cloaked at the WH. This didn-¦t change. This is why we always have at least one ship as anti-interceptor ready while closing.
What did change is that you now should scout if the system is emty or if the enemy ist able to launch a fleet within one Minute. |
Bleedingthrough
Raptor Navy
137
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 12:15:00 -
[1764] - Quote
Durzel wrote: How is "I can't roll holes solo / solo+alts anymore in safety" a valid rebuttal for these changes? Comments like these effectively reinforce CCP's attitude that people have been manipulating connections too easily.
Because their arguments are bullshit to start with. Doing anything like this never was safe and only works because people are stupid, unorganized and risk averse. We killed lots of crushing orcas b4 the patch. It was never that hard. Just jump on their side with everything that fits in and kill it b4 they bring the big toys.
And why should a single guy with his alts not be able to crush a WH? You are aware that many c3 groups are only 2-3 men + alts, are you? |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1154
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 12:42:00 -
[1765] - Quote
Bleedingthrough wrote:In Jita after the patch... xxx wrote:[11:34:16] [11:34:16] Xxx > o/ [11:34:17] Bleedingthrough > hey [11:34:26] Bleedingthrough > are you a WH guy too? [11:34:32] Xxx > part time [11:34:36] Xxx > im a wh thief [11:34:41] Xxx > i rob corporations [11:34:42] Bleedingthrough > haha [11:34:50] Xxx > ive stolen over 200 bil from them [11:34:57] Xxx > prob close to 300 [11:35:19] Bleedingthrough > we had a corp thieve once [11:35:26] Bleedingthrough > have your alts been that? [11:36:09] Xxx > nah [11:36:10] Bleedingthrough > so you hate the changes too? [11:36:19] Xxx > mate [11:36:33] Xxx > http://i.imgur.com/cXBudFN.jpg[11:36:37] Xxx > this is a c4c4 wh [11:36:40] Xxx > go ******* figure [11:37:04] Xxx > you know how long it takes in a c4c4 to get a good exit [11:37:05] Bleedingthrough > oh nice some free machs [11:37:12] Xxx > and you have to use orca 3 rounds [11:37:31] Xxx > its goddamn impossible to do now [11:37:39] Xxx > you will lose several orcas every time [11:37:43] Xxx > before you get exits [11:37:51] Xxx > its ******** [11:37:56] Bleedingthrough > heheh [11:38:01] Xxx > and if you wait you need to bring a ton of fuel in [11:38:05] Bleedingthrough > so even the corp thieves hate this [11:38:07] Xxx > no hole control against 33man corp [11:38:29] Xxx > i won several hole control fights against 20 times bigger numbers [11:38:31] Bleedingthrough > are you OK with me posting this convo on the forums? [11:38:42] Xxx > if you ommit name [11:38:51] Bleedingthrough > will do [11:39:02] Bleedingthrough > this is epic. [11:39:39] Xxx > its basic mechanics being broken [11:41:28] Xxx > no sane person likes this [11:41:36] Xxx > sure i can now camp highsec entrances [11:41:44] Xxx > but its still ******* stupid [11:41:57] Xxx > free kills dont warrant this kind of **** [11:42:16] Xxx > not to mention the camp highsec entrances is still risk free [11:42:27] Xxx > since a vigilant can sit on 0 and just scramweb everything [11:42:38] Xxx > if something goes wrong jump out and you are safe [11:42:54] Xxx > meanwhile CCP makes black holes kiting holes [11:43:05] Xxx > but who cares when all kite ships still spawn on 0 [11:43:23] Xxx > if it was inverted like traiori proposed this would be a great change [11:43:29] Xxx > now its just complete gabage [11:44:38] Xxx > on the other hand plex prices will drop because so many WH guys will quit [11:45:04] Xxx > almost none of them pays rl cash [11:45:08] Xxx > and neither do i [11:45:30] Xxx > i will never pay rl cash again considering how CCP is shitting on literally everything i do [11:49:30] Bleedingthrough > thanks for sharing your thoughts ...
The day I see common sense in Jita local, is the day I question whether there is any reason to go on! Lunacy abounds!
I never thought I would see the day.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Nox52
Lycosa Syndicate Surely You're Joking
26
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 12:56:00 -
[1766] - Quote
Gosti Kahanid wrote:Nox52 wrote:Gosti Kahanid wrote:I live with a small WH-Corp living in a C5. At the moment we have 10 Pilots logged in max.
For the last few days we experimented how to close C6 and 0.0-WHs with less risk as possible. To close those, we use a Dread, an Orca and a Battleship. Both Dread and Orca are now fitted with 3-4 Overdrives and a 100MN MWD. It-¦s important that the Dread jumps first so he doesn-¦t spawn more than 15km away from the WH. With its MWD on it flies about 400m/s so he reaches jumprange in about 30 seconds. Orca, as a smaller/lighter Ship is even faster.
So after adapting a little bit we can still close a WH in about 30 Seconds. I really don-¦t see the big problem here. Ok, if someone was already lurking at a WH then you have a problem with your Dread 10km away from jumprange, but this was already a risk before the change. The only difference now ist that the Dread will be trapped on the other side, but this is the Risk when living in a WH... Am I the only one who thinks of dreads with overdrives and MWDs and it just doesn't feel right on the inside? (other than the fack that dreads with overdrives will die pretty fast....) Did you ever see the fittings on closing-Battleships? It-¦s about bringing the right tool to the right situation, not about how you should fit your ship in other Situations. Sure, if you get into a fight you will die faster when you-¦re using a Armor-Dread, but how was the Situation before the change? We lost more than one time a closing-crew because a enemy was sitting cloaked at the WH. This didn-¦t change. This is why we always have at least one ship as anti-interceptor ready while closing. What did change is that you now should scout if the system is emty or if the enemy ist able to launch a fleet within one Minute.
You mean something like SB/Neut, MJD ECM plated and/or stabbed scorpions? Been there done that. I remain unconvinced that putting overdrives on a dread is a palatable change in the game. I mean if that abomination gets tackled I'd be tempted to let it die than throw good money after bad so to speak. In terms of bringing the right tool for the job I think you'd be better served by a carrier anyway, being faster and a cheaper hull.
And let's be honest anyone with two neurons sparking together previously scouted the hole up to the point that the dread was jumping back home.
Previously you'd run the risk of getting your closing fleet crossjumped by the generic 30+ t3 fleet ending up with a tackled dread in home wh and a dead wh. Now you end up with a tackled cap on the far side with no dead wh.
Shrugs. I think I'll go buy myself a scorpion.
|
Aureus Ahishatsu
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
56
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:17:00 -
[1767] - Quote
Saisin wrote:calaretu wrote:
If they are not on wormhole, why not take in a cloaky hauler and anchor drag bubbles? And then when they come to remove them jump sniping nados with mjd. Snipe jump back home and mjd away. Or something else that may actually work. You are acting like its pre-hyperion when you know its not. No pity from me in this matter. Both you and tlc have better pilots than acting like a standoff is the only alternative.
Exactly... and even a standoff still allows to farm in the wh while closely watching the neighbor... it is not like the only option is to log off...
Actually it is when you have multiple holes like this.... |
Jack Branigan
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:24:00 -
[1768] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming. Go to bed troll. And 86 pages of personal attacks .. ie trolling. Fozzie pointed out for you in the wormhole townhall that wormhole capital escalations blow away anything else as far as isk/hour. Under old mechanics people have done this in complete safety. So you have top isk/hour in the safest area of the game. Why would any sane dev allow this?
High isk/hour hardly correlates to being the source of the 'mudflation' when you consider it is only 5% who live there. |
Jack Branigan
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:25:00 -
[1769] - Quote
On another note.... Day two of having a wh to null in our c5....... no way to close it short of 30 bs jumps so we all logged off. SUPER AWESOME FUN! |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:35:00 -
[1770] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:Ppl went to WHs to have "their own space".
Ppl even wrote that many time.
That is nothing than a carebears wet dream - farm as you like, control access to "your" space and fly caps any time without danger.
There's no such thing as "without danger" in wspace, dummy. We don't have intel channels, we don't have gate camps, we don't have lots and lots of empty neighbour systems that nobody will care to roam into, trying to find us, when we try to farm anoms with officer fit ratting carriers, with full suport from our space owner coalitions, with cyno jammers and local chat intel. Oh and stations which can't be bashed for evicition... Now THAT is "without danger". No wonder nullsec farmers are soooooo bored that they wanna take an occasional dump on wspace. In case you don't know, enemies ragerolling could always find their way into us. Now try to capital escalate a C5 site when you're in triage or siege cycle and you get invaded. Good luck getting your officer fit s#it out to safety, in time |
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Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:40:00 -
[1771] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:CCP Falcon wrote:Thanks very much for a solid, reasonable and concise response without using veiled personal attacks or trolling. I'll pass this on directly to development. Falcon, something else that was brought up at the Wormhole townhall that got kind of pushed to one side. It was recieved somewhat well by the community. Wormhole mass changes should remain implemented But the mas / spawn should be inverted. Light, fast ships spawn further. Heavier, slower ships spawn closer. Currently the wormhole fight meta is heavier, armour ships on the hole. Inverting the spawn / mass distance could introduce a new playstyle of faster, kiting ships on wormholes as well as the heavy armour meta. It would also tie in with the new speedy, missile hole changes. Inversion of the new mass rule is just a gimmick put out there by those that still want to collapse easily. The whole point of the mass change is to make collapsing more dangerous, and it only does so when the ships with higher mass don't get to jump back immediately.
What's the problem with collapsing holes easily. It can be fast, but will NEVER be safe. In first place, nullsec guys don't even have to collapse anything when they log inside a station, undock, warp carrier to site, and start doing it. We have to have the time to scan neighbour systems, put a scout in the other side, and try to roll holes. In second place, there can and will be a covert fleet waiting for the rolling ships. They can jump to my side as soon as i jump capital to their side, so even if i jump back i will still get pawned. In third place, you clearly don't know what you're talking about, if you have ever lived in a c1 and tried to collapse a hole (God forbid)... or, in a C5>C6 in which you roll into really scary guys, without numbers, you JUST. CAN'T. ROLL. So, biatch. plz. Shut up.
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:47:00 -
[1772] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Syndiaan wrote:Sentamon wrote:86 pages and still no serious counterproposal to stop the massive mudflation caused by safe W-Space farming. Go to bed troll. And 86 pages of personal attacks .. ie trolling. Fozzie pointed out for you in the wormhole townhall that wormhole capital escalations blow away anything else as far as isk/hour. Under old mechanics people have done this in complete safety. So you have top isk/hour in the safest area of the game. Why would any sane dev allow this?
1. I don't know what you mean by top isk/hour. If I get only 3 sites to farm at home, 1/3 of the time will be to actually farm them, the other 2/3 are: preparations. That's wh life for you.
2. And then, those sites don't infinitely spawn. If you still want isk, you have to roll the static, which has random results. It can be a very hot hole, can be a hole with undesirable effects.
3. So, the rest of your playtime will be pvp, which is awesome. But then, we have to scan a new chain for targets, or for a kspace exit. That too demands time.
4. In the end, you say complete safety. LMAO. Read my statements above. There's no thing such as complete safety in wspace. Maybe you're talking about nullsec? Or incursions?
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CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:49:00 -
[1773] - Quote
I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
126
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 14:58:00 -
[1774] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.
what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.
In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react. After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place. So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight.
However, with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank
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Trent McRent
Raptor Navy Dominatus Atrum Mortis
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:01:00 -
[1775] - Quote
Shouldn't we all just go and shoot at the monument? It seemed to work last time CCP made a booboo whit one of their patches. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:05:00 -
[1776] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown.
I have some respect for people like you, who USED TO be in wormholes way way before myself, therefore having more experience. Cheers! BTW, why did you and other famous guys move to nullsec? Before the patch? So. With due respect, I don't see where your logic is. I assume that a T3 fleet is still faster than a BS fleet? I mean, Skyfighters and RLLO after them, used to be a bunch of awesome pvpers, awesome scouts, and overall proficient wormholers. I don't see how a small corp would have time to 1. scan a hole 2. warp BS's and caps to it 3. jump and still be faster than you guys?
Understand that I'm not criticizing, that was just a doubt. I guess I'll ask to those of you that still stay in Wspace (isogen5 for example), if you don't know the answer. |
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:09:00 -
[1777] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:CivilWars wrote:I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown. what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them. In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react. After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place. So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight. However, with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank If my goal is to find ganks then I have much better odds finding ratting ishtars, battleships, and carriers in null sec than I ever will in w-space. I lived in w-space for "good fights", not saying that I wouldn't take ganks that crossed my path, and based on my personal experience and first had accounts by friends that still live in w-space the "good fights" are few and far between. People screaming that w-space needs more isk, so more farmers join, so they can farm said farmers are as much a part of the problem with w-space as CCP. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:17:00 -
[1778] - Quote
Rei Moon wrote:CivilWars wrote:I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown. I have some respect for people like you, who USED TO be in wormholes way way before myself, therefore having more experience. Cheers! BTW, why did you and other famous guys move to nullsec? Before the patch? So. With due respect, I don't see where your logic is. I assume that a T3 fleet is still faster than a BS fleet? I mean, Skyfighters and RLLO after them, used to be a bunch of awesome pvpers, awesome scouts, and overall proficient wormholers. I don't see how a small corp would have time to 1. scan a hole 2. warp BS's and caps to it 3. jump and still be faster than you guys? Understand that I'm not criticizing, that was just a doubt. I guess I'll ask to those of you that still stay in Wspace (isogen5 for example), if you don't know the answer. The reason I left is simple, I play this game as a social experiment more than anything else. As much as I am ashamed to admit it I have mining skills on this pilot, and actually used them at one time, simply because it was "fun" to sit in a belt on TS with a bunch of friends. If you look through my employment history you will see ties to IT, CFC, PL, CFC again(not my choice and didn't undock), and now Tri. There are also various WH endeavors along the way. Most/all of these decisions were made because of friendships, not game mechanics or EVE political leanings. My friends in SKY said they were forming RLLO, so I went. My friends in RLLO said they were leaving w-space, so I went. My friends said they were reforming RLLO to join Tri, so I went, and told them if they tried to make me move again I would hunt them down IRL.
As for your question about rolling away, who says it was a small corp? I can probably count on one hand the fights I was involved in while in both SKY and RLLO where any group chose to jump to us with somewhat equal numbers. And if people are rolling the right way they already have the BSes and cap on the hole with them when the scout jumps. See j-sig, check who lives there, jump, jump, jump, goodbye. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
648
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:20:00 -
[1779] - Quote
Enthropic wrote: what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.
But arguably there are many people who really want to play EVE, and who want to be in wormholes, and they want or need to do PvE to make ISK.
Up until now, that was easily possible with zero risk in subcapitals (no siege/triage, usually no sleeper scrams -> by the time someone jumps through that new hole, you are already back in your pos) and with just a little risk (and higher reward) in capitals. There was absolutely no need to do PvE when your system was not 100% secured. I have active neighbors today and can't close? Ok, I'll just do these sites tomorrow when it's 100% safe again.
That is why you basically never see anyone doing a site in w-space anymore. By the time you see them, they are already idling in their pos, if you see them at all. More often than not they have already cloaked up to make the system look inactive.
Now, when closing all open holes may be impossible or at least uneconomical over the long term, people have the choice to leave or to still try to make ISK under the new conditions, and that means exposing themselves to a risk greater than zero.
If even a fraction of current wormhole residents stay and are now forced to do PvE under the new conditions, there will be more (subcap) gank targets than before. Because before you could basically only catch someone who really didn't pay any attention.
Another point: I suspect that a significant portion of people who do nothing but bearing could become useful EVE players if they are forced. I noticed in myself that when I was alone in a c4 with constant access to 100% safe bearing, I would do it more than I really wanted because it was risk-free and it seemed wrong to let these sites go to waste. But when I was done with them, I usually didn't have the real life time resources left to do anything else, i.e. scanning for pvp.
My hope is that when all those people bearing away solo or with 2-3 guys find it now too dangerous to do so, they will migrate into real corporations. And by that I don't mean 50+ people, more like 5+. And then these people may find out that with just a few friends at your side, you can do fun things instead of bearing. . |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
373
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:22:00 -
[1780] - Quote
These changes didn't make the game more fun. Things that aren't fun... why bother? Who cares about the isk? Inflation in eve is driven by subs and ease and cheapness of minerals - let's not pretend that it is a free market economy. Its fun, but its no wall street. |
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:22:00 -
[1781] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:Rei Moon wrote:CivilWars wrote:I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown. I have some respect for people like you, who USED TO be in wormholes way way before myself, therefore having more experience. Cheers! BTW, why did you and other famous guys move to nullsec? Before the patch? So. With due respect, I don't see where your logic is. I assume that a T3 fleet is still faster than a BS fleet? I mean, Skyfighters and RLLO after them, used to be a bunch of awesome pvpers, awesome scouts, and overall proficient wormholers. I don't see how a small corp would have time to 1. scan a hole 2. warp BS's and caps to it 3. jump and still be faster than you guys? Understand that I'm not criticizing, that was just a doubt. I guess I'll ask to those of you that still stay in Wspace (isogen5 for example), if you don't know the answer. The reason I left is simple, I play this game as a social experiment more than anything else. As much as I am ashamed to admit it I have mining skills on this pilot, and actually used them at one time, simply because it was "fun" to sit in a belt on TS with a bunch of friends. If you look through my employment history you will see ties to IT, CFC, PL, CFC again(not my choice and didn't undock), and now Tri. There are also various WH endeavors along the way. Most/all of these decisions were made because of friendships, not game mechanics or EVE political leanings. My friends in SKY said they were forming RLLO, so I went. My friends in RLLO said they were leaving w-space, so I went. My friends said they were reforming RLLO to join Tri, so I went, and told them if they tried to make me move again I would hunt them down IRL. As for your question about rolling away, who says it was a small corp? I can probably count on one hand the fights I was involved in while in both SKY and RLLO where any group chose to jump to us with somewhat equal numbers. And if people are rolling the right way they already have the BSes and cap on the hole with them when the scout jumps. See j-sig, check who lives there, jump, jump, jump, goodbye.
TY for the answer.
|
Glyndi
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
243
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:49:00 -
[1782] - Quote
When using the argument that you couldnt scan the sig down before the hole got rolled. Keep in mind EVERYONE in WSpace rage rolls to find a quick route to KSpace when the situation calls for it. This could be for fuel, hauling out loots, ship replenishment etc...
Assuming that someone sees who owns the hole and is 'affraid' of that group is the primary decision for rolling it is ignorant. None of those arguments are absolute, there is always other motives.
For about 5 hours one day we rage rolled specifically looking for Isogen 5 cuz I GÖí Foedus. I'm sure there were a lot of angry groups seeing a sig pop up and vanish seconds later. Our intent was PvP....but at that time a specific group. |
Chandoraa
Negative Density
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:52:00 -
[1783] - Quote
From the posts that I have read, it would appear that the major issue that people have relates to smaller groups that live in higher class wormholes, not being able to "safely" roll or crit holes when they want to roll away from a larger group or to PvE. This will have a knock on effect reducing content for everyone in wormhole space, which results in people leaving wormhole space or even worse the game itself.
I kind of understand why CCP have made this change, but the implementation of the change and response to constructive feedback has not been great. My suggestion to try and satisfy everyone would be to reduce the ranges at which people spawn from the wormhole and have a laid out chance base system, maybe based upon this:
Pod/Zephyr: 100% chance of spawning <5KM Frigate: 90% chance of spawning <5km / 10% chance of spawning >5km<6km Cruisers: 80% chance of spawning <5km / 20% chance of spawning >5km<7km Battleships: 70% chance of spawning <5km / 30% chance of spawning >5km<8km Orca: 60% chance of spawning <5km / 40% chance of spawning >5km<9km Capitals: 50% chance of spawning <5km / 50% chance of spawning >5km<10km
I think that this follows the unpredictable nature of wormholes, with every ship having a chance of spawning within 5km but an increasing probability of spawning outside jump range depending on mass, with the heaviest ships only having a maximum of 5km to chug before being able to jump back, but I think that is still more than enough to install an element of risk in rolling.
Another quick thought. With the above CCP could then bring out a module that increases the chance of spawning closer to the wormhole, or a skill that does something similar?
Thanks for your time, I hope that this gets sorted soon. |
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
122
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 15:53:00 -
[1784] - Quote
Glyndi wrote:When using the argument that you couldnt scan the sig down before the hole got rolled. Keep in mind EVERYONE in WSpace rage rolls to find a quick route to KSpace when the situation calls for it. This could be for fuel, hauling out loots, ship replenishment etc...
Assuming that someone sees who owns the hole and is 'affraid' of that group is the primary decision for rolling it is ignorant. None of those arguments are absolute, there is always other motives.
For about 5 hours one day we rage rolled specifically looking for Isogen 5 cuz I GÖí Foedus. I'm sure there were a lot of angry groups seeing a sig pop up and vanish seconds later. Our intent was PvP....but at that time a specific group. For sure possible, BUT when you see their tag on d-scan, figure out who it was, pop in their pub channel(or talk to them in ours since almost everyone hangs out there anyway), and they tell you they rolled because they were scurr then they were scurr. Not saying that is the ONLY reason people rolled away from our home, but I am saying it is a bad mechanic, once again in my opinion, that someone can roll away before you can even get the hole scanned regardless of why they rolled. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1160
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:12:00 -
[1785] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Enthropic wrote: what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them.
But arguably there are many people who really want to play EVE, and who want to be in wormholes, and they want or need to do PvE to make ISK. Up until now, that was easily possible with zero risk in subcapitals (no siege/triage, usually no sleeper scrams -> by the time someone jumps through that new hole, you are already back in your pos) and with just a little risk (and higher reward) in capitals. There was absolutely no need to do PvE when your system was not 100% secured. I have active neighbors today and can't close? Ok, I'll just do these sites tomorrow when it's 100% safe again. That is why you basically never see anyone doing a site in w-space anymore. By the time you see them, they are already idling in their pos, if you see them at all. More often than not they have already cloaked up to make the system look inactive. Now, when closing all open holes may be impossible or at least uneconomical over the long term, people have the choice to leave or to still try to make ISK under the new conditions, and that means exposing themselves to a risk greater than zero. If even a fraction of current wormhole residents stay and are now forced to do PvE under the new conditions, there will be more (subcap) gank targets than before. Because before you could basically only catch someone who really didn't pay any attention. Another point: I suspect that a significant portion of people who do nothing but bearing could become useful EVE players if they are forced. I noticed in myself that when I was alone in a c4 with constant access to 100% safe bearing, I would do it more than I really wanted because it was risk-free and it seemed wrong to let these sites go to waste. But when I was done with them, I usually didn't have the real life time resources left to do anything else, i.e. scanning for pvp. My hope is that when all those people bearing away solo or with 2-3 guys find it now too dangerous to do so, they will migrate into real corporations. And by that I don't mean 50+ people, more like 5+. And then these people may find out that with just a few friends at your side, you can do fun things instead of bearing.
I am sorry, but really..... There are so many wrong assumptions and misinformation in here, I hardly know where to begin.
Just for one sleepers do prevent warping. Whether you wish to define it as scrambling or disrupting is irrelevant. You still are very dead when you get dropped. And If you are in a low class hole like a c1 or 2 where you Are not, there is nothing worth your time farming. Mining for example is hardly worth it, and the sites, well, if you have run any you will know already.
I am sure others will point out the other fallacies and misinformation in your post, But I will not, as it does not move this issue towards s successful conclusion.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Glyndi
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
243
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:14:00 -
[1786] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:Glyndi wrote:When using the argument that you couldnt scan the sig down before the hole got rolled. Keep in mind EVERYONE in WSpace rage rolls to find a quick route to KSpace when the situation calls for it. This could be for fuel, hauling out loots, ship replenishment etc...
Assuming that someone sees who owns the hole and is 'affraid' of that group is the primary decision for rolling it is ignorant. None of those arguments are absolute, there is always other motives.
For about 5 hours one day we rage rolled specifically looking for Isogen 5 cuz I GÖí Foedus. I'm sure there were a lot of angry groups seeing a sig pop up and vanish seconds later. Our intent was PvP....but at that time a specific group. For sure possible, BUT when you see their tag on d-scan, figure out who it was, pop in their pub channel(or talk to them in ours since almost everyone hangs out there anyway), and they tell you they rolled because they were scurr then they were scurr. Not saying that is the ONLY reason people rolled away from our home, but I am saying it is a bad mechanic, once again in my opinion, that someone can roll away before you can even get the hole scanned regardless of why they rolled.
Of course, not everyone plays the same EVE you and I do. My group is small but we have never backed down from any group when it came to having some good old-fashioned brawling. Sure we've asked for smaller numbers and perhaps a ship down every so often. We arent going to purposely suicide into a larger fleet, we have but its not always our intent. Mind set of the group will dictate their actions.
Eventually they will get caught be it Bobs will or a silly mistake. The point is this new mass mechanic will cause/ has caused those groups to just leave now...according to hear say. Now you wont ever get lucky and catch those people rolling their hole..they wont be there. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1160
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:16:00 -
[1787] - Quote
Chandoraa wrote:From the posts that I have read, it would appear that the major issue that people here relates to smaller groups that live in higher class wormholes, not being able to "safely" roll or crit holes when they want to roll away from a larger group or to PvE. This will have a knock on effect reducing content for everyone in wormhole space, which results in people leaving wormhole space or even worse the game itself.
I kind of understand why CCP have made this change, but the implementation of the change and response to constructive feedback has not been great. My suggestion to try and satisfy everyone would be to reduce the ranges at which people spawn from the wormhole and have a laid out chance base system, maybe based upon this:
Pod/Zephyr: 100% chance of spawning <5KM Frigate: 90% chance of spawning <5km / 10% chance of spawning >5km<6km Cruisers: 80% chance of spawning <5km / 20% chance of spawning >5km<7km Battleships: 70% chance of spawning <5km / 30% chance of spawning >5km<8km Orca: 60% chance of spawning <5km / 40% chance of spawning >5km<9km Capitals: 50% chance of spawning <5km / 50% chance of spawning >5km<10km
I think that this follows the unpredictable nature of wormholes, with every ship having a chance of spawning within 5km but an increasing probability of spawning outside jump range depending on mass, with the heaviest ships having a maximum of 5km to chug before being able to jump back, but I think that is still more than enough to install an element of risk in rolling.
Another quick thought. With the above CCP could then bring out a module that increases the chance of spawning closer to the wormhole, or a skill that does something similar?
Thanks for your time, I hope that this gets sorted soon.
No absolutely not, are you deliberately trying to upset people?
THERE IS NO VALUE WHATSOEVER IN DYING DUE TO BAD LUCK!
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
127
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:19:00 -
[1788] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:Enthropic wrote:CivilWars wrote:I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown. what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them. In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react. After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place. So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight. However, with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank If my goal is to find ganks then I have much better odds finding ratting ishtars, battleships, and carriers in null sec than I ever will in w-space. I lived in w-space for "good fights", not saying that I wouldn't take ganks that crossed my path, and based on my personal experience and first had accounts by friends that still live in w-space the "good fights" are few and far between. People screaming that w-space needs more isk, so more farmers join, so they can farm said farmers are as much a part of the problem with w-space as CCP.
not trying to aruge with you mate, all Im saying is that people who come into your wh with the intention to close off the connection, are certainly not going to give you a good fight. So whats the benefit of the change? |
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
123
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:30:00 -
[1789] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:CivilWars wrote:Enthropic wrote:CivilWars wrote:I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown. what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them. In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react. After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place. So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight. However, with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank If my goal is to find ganks then I have much better odds finding ratting ishtars, battleships, and carriers in null sec than I ever will in w-space. I lived in w-space for "good fights", not saying that I wouldn't take ganks that crossed my path, and based on my personal experience and first had accounts by friends that still live in w-space the "good fights" are few and far between. People screaming that w-space needs more isk, so more farmers join, so they can farm said farmers are as much a part of the problem with w-space as CCP. not trying to aruge with you mate, all Im saying is that people who come into your wh with the intention to close off the connection, are certainly not going to give you a good fight. So whats the benefit of the change?
The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
16
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:36:00 -
[1790] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:[ The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.
Well, you will be left with a open hole, that the people on the other side dont want to roll. And most likely go idle playing wot, day-z or whatever. So you gained a open connection with no content I guess.
|
|
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
127
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:41:00 -
[1791] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:Enthropic wrote:CivilWars wrote:Enthropic wrote:CivilWars wrote:I like the changes, and I will explain why. While in both Sky and RLLO when we lived in C5 space there were several instances where someone called "new sig in home, dropping probes", and before we could get the sig scanned there were calls of BSes on scan, and a cap, sig is gone. So when we have people active and awake in our home system someone rolled into us, and could safely roll away from us before we could even get the new sig scanned, and form any type of response.
In my personal opinion rolling holes should not be this safe and easy. With the new mechanic where k162 sigs only appear after activation from the other side that means if there were no mass jump distance mechanics that preventing someone from immediately rolling away from you would be even more difficult.
TLDR - Most people like to claim they are in w-space because of the thrill of the dangerous unknown, then want to remove all the danger and unknown. what you should consider when making this argument (which is a valid and good argument) is that you cant force people to fight you, unless you gank them by rolling into them. In the scenario you describe, before the patch, they collapse the hole before you can react. After the patch, they wont even collapse it, but log out instead, since they apparently did not come to you for a fight in the first place. So no fight for you in both scenarios. Unless the farmers want to give you a fight. However, with the new mechanic, YOU are having a harder time than before rolling your static in order to kill a farming fleet. Sure you can do it, but you will be able to roll fewer holes per hour, thereby less chance of a gank If my goal is to find ganks then I have much better odds finding ratting ishtars, battleships, and carriers in null sec than I ever will in w-space. I lived in w-space for "good fights", not saying that I wouldn't take ganks that crossed my path, and based on my personal experience and first had accounts by friends that still live in w-space the "good fights" are few and far between. People screaming that w-space needs more isk, so more farmers join, so they can farm said farmers are as much a part of the problem with w-space as CCP. not trying to aruge with you mate, all Im saying is that people who come into your wh with the intention to close off the connection, are certainly not going to give you a good fight. So whats the benefit of the change? The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.
well I guess youre trolling me, but I will bite.
the point is, nobody will jump their moros through for you to catch it. They will instead choose not to roll and log.
you have not lost or gained, except for the time when you need to roll, because you know, a tower needs to be fueled from time to time, or you want to jump on an escalation fleet, or.. insert other reasons to roll a hole.. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
260
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:44:00 -
[1792] - Quote
CivilWars wrote: The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.
Have you not been paying attention, like at ALL to what people have been saying?
There wont BE A MOROS. Everything after that is a fantasy, concocted in your fantasy world where people will jump in a cap into an active hole under the new system. That's the whole point of the new system, no one is going to be pants on head ******** enough to knowingly put a capital 15km off the hole in AN ACTIVE WORMHOLE. and if they are then theres going to be 30+ T3s behind it.
What, exactly, are you smoking, because thats some extremely strong stuff and I would recommend you stop before whats left of your brain rots away.
|
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
1181
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:45:00 -
[1793] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:but I will bite.
the point is, nobody will jump their moros through for you to catch it. They will instead choose not to roll and log.
This killmail would beg to differ
https://zkillboard.com/kill/40912932/ Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
1181
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:46:00 -
[1794] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:CivilWars wrote: The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.
Have you not been paying attention, like at ALL to what people have been saying? There wont BE A MOROS. Everything after that is a fantasy, concocted in your fantasy world where people will jump in a cap into an active hole under the new system. That's the whole point of the new system, no one is going to be pants on head ******** enough to knowingly put a capital 15km off the hole in AN ACTIVE WORMHOLE. and if they are then theres going to be 30+ T3s behind it. What, exactly, are you smoking, because thats some extremely strong stuff and I would recommend you stop before whats left of your brain rots away.
People who want to live in WH space and want the easier way to reduce mass on holes will adapt.
We've already seen it and have the KM to prove it. Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Syndiaan
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:48:00 -
[1795] - Quote
Saisin wrote:calaretu wrote:
If they are not on wormhole, why not take in a cloaky hauler and anchor drag bubbles? And then when they come to remove them jump sniping nados with mjd. Snipe jump back home and mjd away. Or something else that may actually work. You are acting like its pre-hyperion when you know its not. No pity from me in this matter. Both you and tlc have better pilots than acting like a standoff is the only alternative.
Exactly... and even a standoff still allows to farm in the wh while closely watching the neighbor... it is not like the only option is to log off...
Do you think we have unlimited sites in the systems or something? you get to do them once a day, sometimes only 1 or 2 sites. |
Chandoraa
Negative Density
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 16:50:00 -
[1796] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Chandoraa wrote:From the posts that I have read, it would appear that the major issue that people here relates to smaller groups that live in higher class wormholes, not being able to "safely" roll or crit holes when they want to roll away from a larger group or to PvE. This will have a knock on effect reducing content for everyone in wormhole space, which results in people leaving wormhole space or even worse the game itself.
I kind of understand why CCP have made this change, but the implementation of the change and response to constructive feedback has not been great. My suggestion to try and satisfy everyone would be to reduce the ranges at which people spawn from the wormhole and have a laid out chance base system, maybe based upon this:
Pod/Zephyr: 100% chance of spawning <5KM Frigate: 90% chance of spawning <5km / 10% chance of spawning >5km<6km Cruisers: 80% chance of spawning <5km / 20% chance of spawning >5km<7km Battleships: 70% chance of spawning <5km / 30% chance of spawning >5km<8km Orca: 60% chance of spawning <5km / 40% chance of spawning >5km<9km Capitals: 50% chance of spawning <5km / 50% chance of spawning >5km<10km
I think that this follows the unpredictable nature of wormholes, with every ship having a chance of spawning within 5km but an increasing probability of spawning outside jump range depending on mass, with the heaviest ships having a maximum of 5km to chug before being able to jump back, but I think that is still more than enough to install an element of risk in rolling.
Another quick thought. With the above CCP could then bring out a module that increases the chance of spawning closer to the wormhole, or a skill that does something similar?
Thanks for your time, I hope that this gets sorted soon. No absolutely not, are you deliberately trying to upset people? THERE IS NO VALUE WHATSOEVER IN DYING DUE TO BAD LUCK! Have you not understood the pages and pages of all the reasons why this change is bad? Please do not make suggestions, if you do not actually understand wormhole space, and the issues involved. Someone might listen to you and then we will be even more damaged, for absolutely no good reason.
One thing that you have to understand, this change is already live and as such it will remain, be it in one form or another. Maybe I am wrong but I have never known CCP to do a complete 180 on a change (unless it was completely broken) that has already gone live. This is why my suggestion is designed to start a conversation to try and find some kind of middle ground that allows CCP to keep their desired change of raising the risk of rolling a WH, whilst at least giving my carrier the chance of spawning within jump range.
I understand that people do not like to leave things up to chance, but IMO if there is one place in the Eve Universe where chance should be allowed to live and that is in WH space.
If you think that my idea was so incorrect, then please feel free to make one of your own that isn't the simple demand that CCP remove a change that you don't like.
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
260
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:00:00 -
[1797] - Quote
Chandoraa wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Chandoraa wrote:From the posts that I have read, it would appear that the major issue that people here relates to smaller groups that live in higher class wormholes, not being able to "safely" roll or crit holes when they want to roll away from a larger group or to PvE. This will have a knock on effect reducing content for everyone in wormhole space, which results in people leaving wormhole space or even worse the game itself.
I kind of understand why CCP have made this change, but the implementation of the change and response to constructive feedback has not been great. My suggestion to try and satisfy everyone would be to reduce the ranges at which people spawn from the wormhole and have a laid out chance base system, maybe based upon this:
Pod/Zephyr: 100% chance of spawning <5KM Frigate: 90% chance of spawning <5km / 10% chance of spawning >5km<6km Cruisers: 80% chance of spawning <5km / 20% chance of spawning >5km<7km Battleships: 70% chance of spawning <5km / 30% chance of spawning >5km<8km Orca: 60% chance of spawning <5km / 40% chance of spawning >5km<9km Capitals: 50% chance of spawning <5km / 50% chance of spawning >5km<10km
I think that this follows the unpredictable nature of wormholes, with every ship having a chance of spawning within 5km but an increasing probability of spawning outside jump range depending on mass, with the heaviest ships having a maximum of 5km to chug before being able to jump back, but I think that is still more than enough to install an element of risk in rolling.
Another quick thought. With the above CCP could then bring out a module that increases the chance of spawning closer to the wormhole, or a skill that does something similar?
Thanks for your time, I hope that this gets sorted soon. No absolutely not, are you deliberately trying to upset people? THERE IS NO VALUE WHATSOEVER IN DYING DUE TO BAD LUCK! Have you not understood the pages and pages of all the reasons why this change is bad? Please do not make suggestions, if you do not actually understand wormhole space, and the issues involved. Someone might listen to you and then we will be even more damaged, for absolutely no good reason. One thing that you have to understand, this change is already live and as such it will remain, be it in one form or another. Maybe I am wrong but I have never known CCP to do a complete 180 on a change (unless it was completely broken) that has already gone live. This is why my suggestion is designed to start a conversation to try and find some kind of middle ground that allows CCP to keep their desired change of raising the risk of rolling a WH, whilst at least giving my carrier the chance of spawning within jump range. I understand that people do not like to leave things up to chance, but IMO if there is one place in the Eve Universe where chance should be allowed to live and that is in WH space. If you think that my idea was so incorrect, then please feel free to make one of your own that isn't the simple demand that CCP remove a change that you don't like. there has been tons of ideas already, even the worst of those werent as bad as yours. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
260
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:03:00 -
[1798] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:CivilWars wrote: The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.
Have you not been paying attention, like at ALL to what people have been saying? There wont BE A MOROS. Everything after that is a fantasy, concocted in your fantasy world where people will jump in a cap into an active hole under the new system. That's the whole point of the new system, no one is going to be pants on head ******** enough to knowingly put a capital 15km off the hole in AN ACTIVE WORMHOLE. and if they are then theres going to be 30+ T3s behind it. What, exactly, are you smoking, because thats some extremely strong stuff and I would recommend you stop before whats left of your brain rots away. People who want to live in WH space and want the easier way to reduce mass on holes will adapt. We've already seen it and have the KM to prove it. and most of those have said they hate it and are/have left wh space. its like you havent even read this thread at all. this must be how ccp has been looking at our feedback. |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
17
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:04:00 -
[1799] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:People who want to live in WH space and want the easier way to reduce mass on holes will adapt.
We've already seen it and have the KM to prove it.
Question is how many times will they lose them before give it up, or just change to bs's though.
|
Glyndi
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
245
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:28:00 -
[1800] - Quote
Sure, a Moros got caught rolling a hole. How many groups can provide kill mails pre Hyperion of capitals they caught rolling a hole?? All of them I'm sure. Which would emphasize more that this mechanic wasnt needed. They could be caught before and they can be caught now. This change wasnt beneficial in anyway.
In fact it made the risk adverse who would previously try to roll their hole move out or opt to not roll at all. Sure some will experiment with different tactics of closing holes. End result is still the same. |
|
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
124
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:43:00 -
[1801] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:CivilWars wrote: The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.
Have you not been paying attention, like at ALL to what people have been saying? There wont BE A MOROS. Everything after that is a fantasy, concocted in your fantasy world where people will jump in a cap into an active hole under the new system. That's the whole point of the new system, no one is going to be pants on head ******** enough to knowingly put a capital 15km off the hole in AN ACTIVE WORMHOLE. and if they are then theres going to be 30+ T3s behind it. What, exactly, are you smoking, because thats some extremely strong stuff and I would recommend you stop before whats left of your brain rots away. I have totally been paying attention, and I say no to drugs. My point being I wasn't going to catch the Moros before because they rolled before I could even scan the hole. If they don't use the Moros now, and thus I don't catch it, I have lost nothing. If they weren't going to fight before, for whatever reason, and they don't fight now, for whatever reason, then I have lost nothing. So, I ask again, what exactly has changed in terms of CONTENT, not MECHANICS? We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:56:00 -
[1802] - Quote
This is really simple, but people keep making it complicated. Any change to wormholes should have the effect of encouraging more people to move into wormholes than people who will want to leave wormholes, because what we really want is more targets.
So lets take a look at this one change. So far, we have lots of people who have moved out, and more who are moving out everyday. Where is the incentive to move in? How many people who didn't live in w-space pre-Hyperion are itching to move in now BECAUSE of these changes? |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
77
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:57:00 -
[1803] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:So, I ask again, what exactly has changed in terms of CONTENT, not MECHANICS? That while you might not catch a Moros roll a WH, other entities got the balls to go all in and collapse themself in on the other side killing the Moros. But that wont happen now, cause the Moros wont be there. Didn't you talk about being risk adverse earlier? Man up... |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
136
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 17:58:00 -
[1804] - Quote
Chandoraa wrote:Maybe I am wrong but I have never known CCP to do a complete 180 on a change (unless it was completely broken) that has already gone live.
Lets see, how about the loot spew mechanic in exploration? Added in Odyssey, little over a year back, removed a year after it was introduced. People adapted but they also complained. A LOT. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1163
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:05:00 -
[1805] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Chandoraa wrote:Maybe I am wrong but I have never known CCP to do a complete 180 on a change (unless it was completely broken) that has already gone live.
Lets see, how about the loot spew mechanic in exploration? Added in Odyssey, little over a year back, removed a year after it was introduced. People adapted but they also complained. A LOT.
Yes eventually they thankfully realised, unfortunately this is destructive at a whole other level.
They can of course choose to do nothing, but that would be a rather poor business decision.
I truly hope they make the right one, hopefully we can be civilised enough to accept a "180" whilst minimising embarrassment. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
124
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:06:00 -
[1806] - Quote
Steven Hackett wrote:CivilWars wrote:So, I ask again, what exactly has changed in terms of CONTENT, not MECHANICS? That while you might not catch a Moros roll a WH, other entities got the balls to go all in and collapse themself in on the other side killing the Moros. But that wont happen now, cause the Moros wont be there. Didn't you talk about being risk adverse earlier? Man up... Huh? How were you going to go balls deep into a hole that was rolled before you even scanned it? That is black magic. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
103
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:13:00 -
[1807] - Quote
With all due respect to your feelings of loss or beeing ignored - take a look at EVE as a whole.
CCP is adjusting the game.
The reason is clear: Constant war.
Industry is changed, WHs is changed, FW is changed , high-sec missions are changed, looting/ reprocessing is changed, mining is changed.
All is set up to eliminate easy farming and create a szenario of constant war.
The only thing remaining is null sex - that change will have the biggest impact on the game and that patch/ patches will be decisive for CCPs business future. All the other patches were only cosmetics.
So all this patches before are only probing for CCPSs business partners reactions - our reactions.
Constant war is the theme in EVE and the core of CCPs politics is of course to reduce the players ability to buy plex with ISK.
Nothing else. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:20:00 -
[1808] - Quote
Rahelis don't have delusions that CCP has some kind of master plan. Wormhole residents used to be 5% of all eve players. How can we be SO important for the economy. Their changes are fragmented and do not talk to each other. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:23:00 -
[1809] - Quote
Also never be dumb enough thinking they would bring any changes to affect nullsex. Unless it's for the nullsex benefit. |
Glyndi
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
245
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:25:00 -
[1810] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:With all due respect to your feelings of loss or beeing ignored - take a look at EVE as a whole.
CCP is adjusting the game.
The reason is clear: Constant war.
Industry is changed, WHs is changed, FW is changed , high-sec missions are changed, looting/ reprocessing is changed, mining is changed.
All is set up to eliminate easy farming and create a szenario of constant war.
The only thing remaining is null sex - that change will have the biggest impact on the game and that patch/ patches will be decisive for CCPs business future. All the other patches were only cosmetics.
So all this patches before are only probing for CCPSs business partners reactions - our reactions.
Constant war is the theme in EVE and the core of CCPs politics is of course to reduce the players ability to buy plex with ISK.
Nothing else.
No
|
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
262
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:37:00 -
[1811] - Quote
CivilWars wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:CivilWars wrote: The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.
Have you not been paying attention, like at ALL to what people have been saying? There wont BE A MOROS. Everything after that is a fantasy, concocted in your fantasy world where people will jump in a cap into an active hole under the new system. That's the whole point of the new system, no one is going to be pants on head ******** enough to knowingly put a capital 15km off the hole in AN ACTIVE WORMHOLE. and if they are then theres going to be 30+ T3s behind it. What, exactly, are you smoking, because thats some extremely strong stuff and I would recommend you stop before whats left of your brain rots away. I have totally been paying attention, and I say no to drugs. My point being I wasn't going to catch the Moros before because they rolled before I could even scan the hole. If they don't use the Moros now, and thus I don't catch it, I have lost nothing. If they weren't going to fight before, for whatever reason, and they don't fight now, for whatever reason, then I have lost nothing. So, I ask again, what exactly has changed in terms of CONTENT, not MECHANICS? What is going to happen is that they are going to log off and play something else. This means they cant make isk, or cant sell thier loot, or buy new ships, or bring in new pilots, or fuel their towers. This means less farming fleets to catch, less PVP fleets out, less content. Dead WHs, GG.
Congratulations you small minded dimwit. |
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
103
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:43:00 -
[1812] - Quote
Do you all think CCP did not notice how many plex where bought with isk?
You may be under the impression that CCP are some dumb nuts that have no clue about their product - and to an extend that is true to all companies - complexity brings chaos.
What CCP knows is that we pay them for their efforts to create and maintain the game.
An example:
Henry Ford used to build cars that lasted for decades. He had a wish and was vocal about it: He wanted to introduce a new car series every 3 or 4 years. So the old cars prodiction was altered, to make them not last decades.
Ergo: In EVE you can earn a 30 day gametime within 2 to 3 hours ingame work.
The most easiest way: Scams - hard to fix that for CCP.
Then we have the top ISK per hour, FW tier4/5 and C5/6 WHs pre Hyperion. After that incursions and null sex farming. After this industry/ trade and high-sec missions - both got serious recent changes. The last is mining.
So clearly CCP has a big motivation to make WH space more dangerous to control WH farming. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:47:00 -
[1813] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:With all due respect to your feelings of loss or beeing ignored - take a look at EVE as a whole.
CCP is adjusting the game.
The reason is clear: Constant war.
Industry is changed, WHs is changed, FW is changed , high-sec missions are changed, looting/ reprocessing is changed, mining is changed.
All is set up to eliminate easy farming and create a szenario of constant war.
The only thing remaining is null sex - that change will have the biggest impact on the game and that patch/ patches will be decisive for CCPs business future. All the other patches were only cosmetics.
So all this patches before are only probing for CCPSs business partners reactions - our reactions.
Constant war is the theme in EVE and the core of CCPs politics is of course to reduce the players ability to buy plex with ISK.
Nothing else. With all due respect, you know nothing of the game if you think we all just live in WHs to PLEX our accounts. There are tons of better, faster, easier ways to do it. They are also boring as hell. I live in a WH for the white knuckle fights and action, not for the boring downtimes when we can't do anything. If you think wormholes are all about being a carebear and risk adverse, you don't understand a thing about who lives there.
Being careful isn't the same thing as being risk adverse, because being careful means attempting to prevent a one sided slaughter of your own fleet while attempting to do just that to someone else. Even trading ship for ship is rare now as almost no one will commit unless they think they have huge advantages. Why? Because we live in a place where 10 ships can change a fight from a huge win to a huge loss. Unlike Null, where blobbing is commonplace, we fly half billion cloaky T3s (those are the cheap ones, FYI) for just this reason. If I count 5 ships in an enemy hole, I double that and believe that might be the actual fleet we'll face. In Nullsec they fight in what, 50 man fleets of Ishtars? That value is roughly the same as our 20 man fleets or, for my corp, 1/4 of an 8 man PVE fleet. Would you risk a 50b PVE fleet without some kind of safety net in a 20 man corp? How about that 12b PVP fleet? There's risk averse and then there's just plain stupid.
Unlike some places, being podded in a wormhole is both expected and understood as the way of removing a pilot from the fight for good. We live and die knowing these things. We live and die anyhow, it's part of the life. That means risking the same pod that has a half bil or more in implants as the guy flying the capitals is also the guy flying the Proteus and often the guy in the Flycatcher or Cheetah. We don't get the luxury of stations or jump clones or medical bays. We don't get to die, reship, and then return in under 5 minutes ready to fight again. Any loss is a loss for a while, and will take hours to days to get home again.
Why do you think the Mexican standoffs happen in WH space now? If one side commits, and the other side goes all in, the risked ships pass the 20b mark pretty damned fast. In addition pilots get lost from fleet, sometimes for days, sometimes for weeks if their run of chains is bad. New frigate holes help some of these guys get home faster, so guess thats one use for them. But the lost ships? Most WH corps are not stupid enough to store 100b of capitals and T3s in a POS. Pilots log out in their best/most expensive ship. Towers can disappear really fast in a WH, so leaving too much in them is really dangerous. A loss of a capital means several days or weeks to get a good hole to bring one back in. I swear, not even Null guys have to deal with the kinds of logistics W-space does. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:49:00 -
[1814] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:Do you all think CCP did not notice how many plex where bought with isk?
You may be under the impression that CCP are some dumb nuts that have no clue about their product - and to an extend that is true to all companies - complexity brings chaos.
What CCP knows is that we pay them for their efforts to create and maintain the game.
An example:
Henry Ford used to build cars that lasted for decades. He had a wish and was vocal about it: He wanted to introduce a new car series every 3 or 4 years. So the old cars prodiction was altered, to make them not last decades.
Ergo: In EVE you can earn a 30 day gametime within 2 to 3 hours ingame work.
The most easiest way: Scams - hard to fix that for CCP.
Then we have the top ISK per hour, FW tier4/5 and C5/6 WHs pre Hyperion. After that incursions and null sex farming. After this industry/ trade and high-sec missions - both got serious recent changes. The last is mining.
So clearly CCP has a big motivation to make WH space more dangerous to control WH farming.
Making people quit playing eve will not increase ccp's revenue. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:51:00 -
[1815] - Quote
Oh, quick show of hands, if I may? How many alliances have anyone outside their alliance set as blue when in WH space?
I know of only one group for my alliance, and they are light blue, so it's more of a suggestion than a rule. If I catch them in my WH afk, they are still getting a wake-up lovetap from a Proteus. If that doesn't make 'em run, or speak, or react, they may get back to see their corpse floating in space. I have no need for afk miners in my hole, cause no one else would show them mercy in that situation. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 18:57:00 -
[1816] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:Ergo: In EVE you can earn a 30 day gametime within 2 to 3 hours ingame work.
The most easiest way: Scams - hard to fix that for CCP.
Then we have the top ISK per hour, FW tier4/5 and C5/6 WHs pre Hyperion. After that incursions and null sex farming. After this industry/ trade and high-sec missions - both got serious recent changes. The last is mining.
So clearly CCP has a big motivation to make WH space more dangerous to control WH farming. Describe to me how I make 800m in 2-3 hours? Maybe I'm missing something, but it takes longer than that for me to get to a trade hub to buy a PLEX, not including actually making the money. What are folks mining to PLEX in 2-3 hours? What incursion running gets me 2-3 hours to generate 800m? Serious, I want the details on this!
FYI, I've never PLEXed my accounts. My time IRL is worth more than my sub fee per hour. So, unless I'm making 1.6b an hour, cheaper to just pay for my game with dollars than ISK. Why should I spend all my time in game buying something I can get cheaper IRL? Instead I want to fly my blinged-out, gold-plated mini-Avatars with the full faction and DEDspace fits. Cause, you know, it's how we WHers roll. |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
262
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 19:07:00 -
[1817] - Quote
I don't quite understand whats this plex bullshit.
If I plex an account (I have used both plexes and IRL cash) that means someone BOUGHT that plex from CCP or a reseller, for +-20$ correct? A month sub is 15$
So in a way if someone plexes an account, doesn't that mean that CCP is making MORE money? And as Plexes go up in ISK price, that means more people would be interested in using cash to buy them, thus making CCP EVEN MORE MONEY.
So... why would CCP not want people to play with plex again? NO seriously, if you can't explain this to me then you are obviously talking out of that ******* you call a mouth. |
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
103
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 19:07:00 -
[1818] - Quote
I made 2 bil in 4 hours FW missions - esay to do and you are close to high sec all time. Some of my copries farrmed about 10 bil in week - you can top that - but it is boring. One guy in FW has some 30 bling marauders fitted in his hangar. All in my old corp had tons of assets capwise - FW pays off well.
WH ppl need to get their stuff out - I lived in a C5 and did that - easy payout of 600m for each of my pilots after 4 hours job a day. At this time plexes where around 650m.
Who do you think pays CCPs bills - the young capsuleer that will buy plex to get his first decent ships, or the seasoned guy that buys another archon after a noons farming?
When customers get used to free play - can you as a company like that?
I assume you have a rl job - do you want to work for nothing?
Our game is CCPs jpb, after all. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 19:22:00 -
[1819] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:I made 2 bil in 4 hours FW missions. i made even more isk doing incursions in nullsec in less time!...dont believe me? ya neither do we believe you i give your troll a 0/10 for complete absurdity |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
138
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 19:28:00 -
[1820] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:I made 2 bil in 4 hours FW missions - esay to do and you are close to high sec all time. Some of my copries farrmed about 10 bil in week - you can top that - but it is boring. One guy in FW has some 30 bling marauders fitted in his hangar. All in my old corp had tons of assets capwise - FW pays off well.
WH ppl need to get their stuff out - I lived in a C5 and did that - easy payout of 600m for each of my pilots after 4 hours job a day. At this time plexes where around 650m.
Who do you think pays CCPs bills - the young capsuleer that will buy plex to get his first decent ships, or the seasoned guy that buys another archon after a noons farming?
When customers get used to free play - can you as a company like that?
I assume you have a rl job - do you want to work for nothing?
Our game is CCPs jpb, after all. Ah, so you're using antiquated information to support the current hypothesis? Good to know. Also, if you are running multiple pilots and making 600m for each pilot on a 4 hour activity level, I suspect you are the kind of carebear pilot who should be outraged over the current changes. Yet here you are, saying to the rest of us to suck it up cause CCP won't recant because PLEX are bad?
Since we're on the topic, let's discuss PLEX versus subscriptions. When I buy a year of gametime at $11 a month, why is that to CCP's advantage over selling me PLEX via someone else buying them at near $20 each for the same quantity of game time? I would think the PLEX would be far more appealing to CCP as those little items earn them significantly higher revenue for the exact same product. CCP has exactly zero fiscal reason to cause PLEXing to be hurt, or to ward off PLEX farmers in any way, shape, or form. They make far better income off that than they do from regular old subscriptions. I have 10 accounts going, and I'm paying less than the value of 6 PLEX each month to do that. So for 3 hours of real life work I have 10 accounts running at the same time. All of a sudden your example of making 600m each for characters over 4 hours feels like a complete waste.
Yes, I have an occupation. It pays me enough to support my gaming habits quite easily. That is neither here, nor there, as we're supposed to be talking about the changes to jumping ships through wormholes, not a debate of the economics of how CCP gets their income. Whether it's from folks buying PLEX to afford their ships instead of making money in-game, or folks (like me) paying half as much to sub their account with real money and not bothering with the PLEX system. |
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 19:32:00 -
[1821] - Quote
Obviously you do not understand how free to play games work. CCP doesn't make more money by encouraging people to subscribe their accounts. They make more money by encouraging people to buy more plex. |
Galmas
United System's Commonwealth
173
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 20:09:00 -
[1822] - Quote
great... no holes barred just rolled into us... thank you fozzy... |
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
124
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 20:22:00 -
[1823] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:CivilWars wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:CivilWars wrote: The benefit is when they jump that Moros in, and it lands 12km from the hole, I now have the time needed to finish scanning the hole, warp something to the hole and bump the Moros. Now do you fight, or sacrifice your dread? I am guessing your likely response will be "neither because they are too risk averse to jump the Moros to begin with", and my reply would be I had no chance of catching the Moros with the old mechanics, so what exactly have I lost with the new mechanics? I had no chance to get a fight or gank pre-Hyperion, and have no chance to get a fight or gank post-Hyperion, so nothing lost or gained.
Have you not been paying attention, like at ALL to what people have been saying? There wont BE A MOROS. Everything after that is a fantasy, concocted in your fantasy world where people will jump in a cap into an active hole under the new system. That's the whole point of the new system, no one is going to be pants on head ******** enough to knowingly put a capital 15km off the hole in AN ACTIVE WORMHOLE. and if they are then theres going to be 30+ T3s behind it. What, exactly, are you smoking, because thats some extremely strong stuff and I would recommend you stop before whats left of your brain rots away. I have totally been paying attention, and I say no to drugs. My point being I wasn't going to catch the Moros before because they rolled before I could even scan the hole. If they don't use the Moros now, and thus I don't catch it, I have lost nothing. If they weren't going to fight before, for whatever reason, and they don't fight now, for whatever reason, then I have lost nothing. So, I ask again, what exactly has changed in terms of CONTENT, not MECHANICS? What is going to happen is that they are going to log off and play something else. This means they cant make isk, or cant sell thier loot, or buy new ships, or bring in new pilots, or fuel their towers. This means less farming fleets to catch, less PVP fleets out, less content. Dead WHs, GG. Congratulations you small minded dimwit. So people that closed off all of their holes before to prevent me from shooting them are now going to log off to prevent me from shooting them? Thanks for proving my point. The people that I couldn't shoot before the patch are the exact same people I can't shoot after the patch. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Glyndi
Doom Generation THE H0NEYBADGER
245
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 20:30:00 -
[1824] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:I made 2 bil in 4 hours FW missions - esay to do and you are close to high sec all time. Some of my copries farrmed about 10 bil in week - you can top that - but it is boring. One guy in FW has some 30 bling marauders fitted in his hangar. All in my old corp had tons of assets capwise - FW pays off well.
WH ppl need to get their stuff out - I lived in a C5 and did that - easy payout of 600m for each of my pilots after 4 hours job a day. At this time plexes where around 650m.
Who do you think pays CCPs bills - the young capsuleer that will buy plex to get his first decent ships, or the seasoned guy that buys another archon after a noons farming?
When customers get used to free play - can you as a company like that?
I assume you have a rl job - do you want to work for nothing?
Our game is CCPs jpb, after all.
Ppl do sell Isk for real bucks too - please do not say you never met a guys in EVE who offered you plex for bucks.
Do you even play EVE? CCP makes a killing from selling PLEX. Take a look at those shuttles a frigs that die with 20-30 PLEX. Multiply that by whatever the dollar amount is to buy one and thats how much cash was just blown away. |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 23:06:00 -
[1825] - Quote
CivilWars wrote: So people that closed off all of their holes before to prevent me from shooting them are now going to log off to prevent me from shooting them? Thanks for proving my point. The people that I couldn't shoot before the patch are the exact same people I can't shoot after the patch.
The difference is that, old-world, they were still online, running sites and making ISK, and being in-game to make mistakes that let you kill them.
Hard to **** up your overwatch when you're offline and don't need an overwatch.
In all seriousness, nearly every gank (and a lot of the good fights) I've seen in w-space happened after a few hours of ~doing things~. One time we'd been moving capital components into a C4 for 3 hours. Another time we'd been watching the AT and bullshitting on comms, and someone decided to do a fuel run with an inattentive scout. Once, we'd been mining ABCs to annoy hypothetical goons (that was ages back, first time I ever saw a vindi in PvP). Usually, though, we'd been running sites... and kept doing so after the last scout got tired and quit for the day, and folk thought "we've not had any issues so far, another hour won't hurt".
If we're not able to run sites because we can't even muster the illusion of security, then there's no opportunity for us to balls up and get dropped... and that means you don't get to drop on our dumb asses. :p
I consider this to be a problem, because we also do the fighting thing sometimes, and we'd never have gotten any good at it if we hadn't had to actually stand and fight in our site-running fleets occasionally. And yeah, some days we put our hunter hats on, and want there to be tired happy bears out there who drop the ball, lose half their fleet and still think they won because we missed the salvager, and they made a profit anyway. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2148
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 23:40:00 -
[1826] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:I don't quite understand whats this plex bullshit.
If I plex an account (I have used both plexes and IRL cash) that means someone BOUGHT that plex from CCP or a reseller, for +-20$ correct? A month sub is 15$
So in a way if someone plexes an account, doesn't that mean that CCP is making MORE money? And as Plexes go up in ISK price, that means more people would be interested in using cash to buy them, thus making CCP EVEN MORE MONEY.
So... why would CCP not want people to play with plex again? NO seriously, if you can't explain this to me then you are obviously talking out of that ******* you call a mouth.
The systems still hinges on players buying PLEX with $$$. This tends to slow or stop when exciting stories of epic eve space battles end, and all current players can PLEX their accounts. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2148
|
Posted - 2014.08.28 23:44:00 -
[1827] - Quote
Glyndi wrote:Take a look at those shuttles a frigs that die with 20-30 PLEX. Multiply that by whatever the dollar amount is to buy one and thats how much cash was just blown away.
RMT money laundering, possibly by WH multiboxers. Not impressed.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
174
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 00:01:00 -
[1828] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:Ppl do sell Isk for real bucks too - please do not say you never met a guys in EVE who offered you plex for bucks. Never happened to me. Maybe that's cause I don't go looking for it. Regardless, RMT results in serious repercussions when you get caught. It's not if, it's when. There are logs for everything in this game, it just takes finding the right search parameters. Besides, why would I bother with ISK sellers or PLEX sellers when I'm rocking that gold-plated mini-Avatar with the full faction and DEDspace fit? I don't roll like that with RMT, I do it the old-fashioned way: I earn my ISK. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
555
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 00:01:00 -
[1829] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:With all due respect to your feelings of loss or beeing ignored - take a look at EVE as a whole.
CCP is adjusting the game.
The reason is clear: Constant war.
Industry is changed, WHs is changed, FW is changed , high-sec missions are changed, looting/ reprocessing is changed, mining is changed.
All is set up to eliminate easy farming and create a szenario of constant war.
The only thing remaining is null sex - that change will have the biggest impact on the game and that patch/ patches will be decisive for CCPs business future. All the other patches were only cosmetics.
So all this patches before are only probing for CCPSs business partners reactions - our reactions.
Constant war is the theme in EVE and the core of CCPs politics is of course to reduce the players ability to buy plex with ISK.
Nothing else. What is incursions.
Constant war?
What the hell are you smoking.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
1182
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 00:07:00 -
[1830] - Quote
scotayne hawkins wrote:. next hole connection was noho. 35 guys logged off
Sounds like TLC hasn't changed 1 bit then Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
|
Winthorp
2658
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 00:36:00 -
[1831] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:scotayne hawkins wrote:. next hole connection was noho. 35 guys logged off Sounds like TLC hasn't changed 1 bit then
Don't be hard on them sith, they may have just run out of ore to mine again.... |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
38
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 02:02:00 -
[1832] - Quote
k lets make these changes fair
1. remove local from Null 2. when jumping to a cyno make it spawn out to 20 km from said cyno based on mass 3. if warp scrambled or disrupted you can not dock in a station or jump through a gate
Now Null will be like w space and as i have read by the null pilots posting...and i Quote "Totally safe to farm in my carrier" |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
376
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 02:03:00 -
[1833] - Quote
Chandoraa wrote:From the posts that I have read, it would appear that the major issue that people here relates to smaller groups that live in higher class wormholes, not being able to "safely" roll or crit holes when they want to roll away from a larger group or to PvE. This will have a knock on effect reducing content for everyone in wormhole space, which results in people leaving wormhole space or even worse the game itself.
I kind of understand why CCP have made this change, but the implementation of the change and response to constructive feedback has not been great. My suggestion to try and satisfy everyone would be to reduce the ranges at which people spawn from the wormhole and have a laid out chance base system, maybe based upon this:
Pod/Zephyr: 100% chance of spawning <5KM Frigate: 90% chance of spawning <5km / 10% chance of spawning >5km<6km Cruisers: 80% chance of spawning <5km / 20% chance of spawning >5km<7km Battleships: 70% chance of spawning <5km / 30% chance of spawning >5km<8km Orca: 60% chance of spawning <5km / 40% chance of spawning >5km<9km Capitals: 50% chance of spawning <5km / 50% chance of spawning >5km<10km
I think that this follows the unpredictable nature of wormholes, with every ship having a chance of spawning within 5km but an increasing probability of spawning outside jump range depending on mass, with the heaviest ships having a maximum of 5km to chug before being able to jump back, but I think that is still more than enough to install an element of risk in rolling.
Another quick thought. With the above CCP could then bring out a module that increases the chance of spawning closer to the wormhole, or a skill that does something similar?
Thanks for your time, I hope that this gets sorted soon.
Let's stop being a chump about this - our C2 is less manageable guy. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
557
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 02:13:00 -
[1834] - Quote
It seems my 1 man riot in Jita is finally catching fire.
Pitchfork seemed like a good way to put it.
Thanks to .EOL for helping.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
39
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 02:15:00 -
[1835] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:It seems my 1 man riot in Jita is finally catching fire.
Pitchfork seemed like a good way to put it.
Thanks to .EOL for helping.
that's you with the mobile depots?..if so well played..will help you riot after our war is over |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
557
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 02:18:00 -
[1836] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:It seems my 1 man riot in Jita is finally catching fire.
Pitchfork seemed like a good way to put it.
Thanks to .EOL for helping. that's you with the mobile depots?..if so well played..will help you riot after our war is over I started it because there was no people shooting statue.
There is a limit to how much I can do alone.
Also figured a new way to broadcast message to screens of everyone beyond local by scramming a depot named to message I want to send.
I had to get creative.
Please do help and contribute to the cause. Every player counts.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Skotos Melek
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 02:59:00 -
[1837] - Quote
Well, just cancelled my alt (this account) because of CCP idiocy on this change. Will keep the other account as long as I can plex it to see if they maybe get smart and undo their mistake (not likely) but this account isn't going to be of any use to me if I can't use it the way I intended to in wh space. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
557
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 03:03:00 -
[1838] - Quote
Skotos Melek wrote:Well, just cancelled my alt (this account) because of CCP idiocy on this change. Will keep the other account as long as I can plex it to see if they maybe get smart and undo their mistake (not likely) but this account isn't going to be of any use to me if I can't use it the way I intended to in wh space. Unsubbing is the only thing CCP can't afford to ignore.
Thank you.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
175
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 03:32:00 -
[1839] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Skotos Melek wrote:Well, just cancelled my alt (this account) because of CCP idiocy on this change. Will keep the other account as long as I can plex it to see if they maybe get smart and undo their mistake (not likely) but this account isn't going to be of any use to me if I can't use it the way I intended to in wh space. Unsubbing is the only thing CCP can't afford to ignore. Thank you. I unsubbed 10 accounts citing this patch as the reason. I'll see if the changes roll back before game time runs out... |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 03:43:00 -
[1840] - Quote
Glyndi wrote:Sure, a Moros got caught rolling a hole. How many groups can provide kill mails pre Hyperion of capitals they caught rolling a hole?? All of them I'm sure. Which would emphasize more that this mechanic wasnt needed. They could be caught before and they can be caught now. This change wasnt beneficial in anyway.
In fact it made the risk adverse who would previously try to roll their hole move out or opt to not roll at all. Sure some will experiment with different tactics of closing holes. End result is still the same.
Yeah Hyperion has replaced hole rolling with more thumb twiddling, snorefesting, POS spinning and hole staring. There will always be stupid people getting caught here and there who didn't read the patch notes. But when they're gone, we'll have net/net less content in wormholes because there won't be as many pilots who will want to use them or roll them without a numbers advantage.
After all, you're always just one mistake away from taking the pod express back to empire. Which is far more inconvenient for w-space pilots to deal with than k-space dudes who die and wake back up in a station next door. Especially if you get caught without bookmarks back in or your hole gets sieged. |
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
273
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 04:28:00 -
[1841] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:k lets make these changes fair
1. remove local from Null 2. when jumping to a cyno make it spawn out to 20 km from said cyno based on mass 3. if warp scrambled or disrupted you can not dock in a station or jump through a gate
Now Null will be like w space and as i have read by the null pilots posting...and i Quote "Totally safe to farm in my carrier"
I approve. +1 Keep the wormhole changes and DO THIS TO NULL!!! They need a shake up!
...With point 3 though atleast make the agression timer more than 1 minute. oh and point 2 make a cyno point for insta docking on all stations. That way frieghter [pilots dont get screwed. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Skotos Melek
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 04:35:00 -
[1842] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Oh, quick show of hands, if I may? How many alliances have anyone outside their alliance set as blue when in WH space?
I know of only one group for my alliance, and they are light blue, so it's more of a suggestion than a rule. If I catch them in my WH afk, they are still getting a wake-up lovetap from a Proteus. If that doesn't make 'em run, or speak, or react, they may get back to see their corpse floating in space. I have no need for afk miners in my hole, cause no one else would show them mercy in that situation.
Edit: Only bother to answer if you are a wormhole corp. No one else really matters for this as it's a straw pull for this one sector of space everyone keeps claiming is so safe.
I keep chuckling to myself when I see nullbears claiming that wh space is safe...just tells me that they have never lived here. I have lost more isk in wh space than in all other ventures combined, and I have spent less time there than in any one other thing I have done.
I also tire of the accusation that we wormhole dwellers are just bears using whs to plex. I live in wh space so I can make enough income to fly small fleets of high value (500mil isk +) ships + a head full of implants. and I like the risk of not knowing who is in system with me, and the long hunting game that comes with stalking folks in the hole. Safe? please, I feel like I am cheating every time I go out into low or null and have a local channel.
I do have a situation where a non alliance group is blue to us, but for a very complicated and specific reason. And no one afk mines in our wh...you would have to be an idiot. (this account obviously isn't in a wh corp, but my main is) |
Skotos Melek
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 04:40:00 -
[1843] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Gunner GzR wrote:k lets make these changes fair
1. remove local from Null 2. when jumping to a cyno make it spawn out to 20 km from said cyno based on mass 3. if warp scrambled or disrupted you can not dock in a station or jump through a gate
Now Null will be like w space and as i have read by the null pilots posting...and i Quote "Totally safe to farm in my carrier" I approve. +1 Keep the wormhole changes and DO THIS TO NULL!!! They need a shake up! ...With point 3 though atleast make the agression timer more than 1 minute. oh and point 2 make a cyno point for insta docking on all stations. That way frieghter [pilots dont get screwed.
I just gained a little bit of respect for you. I figured you were just trolling and enjoying the pain of us Wh dwellers. I want to see the whole thing rolled back, but it would make me feel a little better if they did this to the entire game and I got to see those who have been laughing at our pain crying themselves. +1 for a good post. |
Sith1s Spectre
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
1183
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 05:23:00 -
[1844] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote: and most of those have said they hate it and are/have left wh space. its like you havent even read this thread at all. this must be how ccp has been looking at our feedback.
Could you please list the groups who have left WH space to date purely because of these changes.
At this stage it's still business as usual as far as I have seen, if anything it has INCREASED the amount of traffic and ships moving around as of late. Rolled Out 2.0 is back. -áBut not in the way you're probably thinking-á
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
273
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 05:51:00 -
[1845] - Quote
Skotos Melek wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Gunner GzR wrote:k lets make these changes fair
1. remove local from Null 2. when jumping to a cyno make it spawn out to 20 km from said cyno based on mass 3. if warp scrambled or disrupted you can not dock in a station or jump through a gate
Now Null will be like w space and as i have read by the null pilots posting...and i Quote "Totally safe to farm in my carrier" I approve. +1 Keep the wormhole changes and DO THIS TO NULL!!! They need a shake up! ...With point 3 though atleast make the agression timer more than 1 minute. oh and point 2 make a cyno point for insta docking on all stations. That way frieghter [pilots dont get screwed. I just gained a little bit of respect for you. I figured you were just trolling and enjoying the pain of us Wh dwellers. I want to see the whole thing rolled back, but it would make me feel a little better if they did this to the entire game and I got to see those who have been laughing at our pain crying themselves. +1 for a good post.
LOL I am a WH dweller! From what I can see your not though, an NPC Corp toon cant live in a WH, well not with out the support of mains...
And no, I dotn troll... What I have been trying to do is get people to THINK rather than REACT! I know its only human but... these changes are the best thing since the invention of EVE... Change is good, it keeps us thinking and in the end thats the only way we will stay playing this game. If you get bored you leave. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
273
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 05:53:00 -
[1846] - Quote
Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: and most of those have said they hate it and are/have left wh space. its like you havent even read this thread at all. this must be how ccp has been looking at our feedback.
Could you please list the groups who have left WH space to date purely because of these changes. At this stage it's still business as usual as far as I have seen, if anything it has INCREASED the amount of traffic and ships moving around as of late.
And yes I've notcied the increase in traffic the last few weeks... The patch hasnt dampened it for except for about the first 24 hours with the crazy influx of WHs (mainly frigate) but that has died down now... Cant wait for whats coming! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 07:29:00 -
[1847] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Sith1s Spectre wrote:Anize Oramara wrote: and most of those have said they hate it and are/have left wh space. its like you havent even read this thread at all. this must be how ccp has been looking at our feedback.
Could you please list the groups who have left WH space to date purely because of these changes. At this stage it's still business as usual as far as I have seen, if anything it has INCREASED the amount of traffic and ships moving around as of late. And yes I've notcied the increase in traffic the last few weeks... The patch hasnt dampened it for except for about the first 24 hours with the crazy influx of WHs (mainly frigate) but that has died down now... Cant wait for whats coming!
Well considering we just had a patch that was aimed at wormholes, there will no doubt be increased "activity" for a period of time. But whether this translates to a net influx of pilots *moving into* w-space, I really doubt it. Hyperion added risks and tedium without a dime's worth of difference in incentives, for one. And made w-space more like k-space for another, for the most part thanks to the mass/distance "stargate" change. Move along, nothing to see here... |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
41
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 07:50:00 -
[1848] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:I Bull-****
PLEX is money. Is CCP gimmick to allow busy people with cash in RL access to isk w/o grinding (I like it by the way). Every PLEX is created with RL money so every time I PLEX an account CCP already cashed that in, get it? PLEX is a CCP product if they don't want it used they can easily remove it. How much time do I have to "work" in eve for, what, 20 bucks in RL? So stop with the stupid speculations.
I also see a lot of scenarios made by people that want free of risk ganks. If you see the rolling MOROS on Dscan before you scanned the incoming connection you were sleeping in your slippers dude. You don't deserve to catch that MOROS! But yeah with the new nice change 2 active guys can catch a MOROS then bat-phone in the rest of the idle/doing something else dudes. GG ! You say that rolling whs was not risky enough, OK, I can concede that (C5s rollers with moros+orca are pretty damn hard to catch if they have the initiative but with a cloaky archon or HIC and timed bubble it is not impossible) but this change shift risk massively on the rolling party while detracting it from the aggressive party, not to mention that fucks with several other aspects and WH tactics. Fueling the POSes becomes a tedious, long, boring activity for small groups.
Bottom line, CCP is proud of you WHolers for reiterating their vision of WH space but wants you ******* out of there :P. JKing Falcon pls don't punish me .
TL;DR Yes, I agree that adding some risk to the activity of rolling the holes is welcome but I think the way they did it is probably the worse way to do it.
P.S. Someone said something about controlling space instead of controlling connections. We already have that, is called blue-donuts space and it requires massive numbers and is an legitimate play-style but keep it there pls. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1163
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 08:33:00 -
[1849] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Gunner GzR wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:It seems my 1 man riot in Jita is finally catching fire.
Pitchfork seemed like a good way to put it.
Thanks to .EOL for helping. that's you with the mobile depots?..if so well played..will help you riot after our war is over I started it because there was no people shooting statue. There is a limit to how much I can do alone. Also figured a new way to broadcast message to screens of everyone beyond local by scramming a depot named to message I want to send. I had to get creative. Please do help and contribute to the cause. Every player counts.
Smart idea. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 08:40:00 -
[1850] - Quote
Lenroc Elisav wrote: Bottom line, CCP is proud of you WHolers for reiterating their vision of WH space but wants you ******* out of there :P.
What's so completely borked about all this is, when wormholes were first introduced, CCP really didn't want us to live there. But that patch was so awesome that loads of players moved in permanently. Now Fozzie comes out and says in his dev blog "OK, yeah we didn't want you to live there but you did anyway and that's awesome, please stay".
Then CCP proceeds to deliver this latest patch, which appears aimed to benefit daytrippers and explorers, not the folks who actually live here. For those who actually live in w-space, your ability to roll holes got nerfed into the ground. There was a long list of improvements we wanted to w-space that would have been awesome if even a couple of them were implemented. Instead CCP wasted precious developer resources on a spawning mechanic that was previously working fine, was fairly well balanced, absolutely not risk-free with polarization and therefore did not need fixing.
We got zip, zero, nada in terms of better incentives for players to actually *move into* and *live* in w-space. Especially lower-class holes without escalations, but even aside from isk faucets there was little in the way of quality of life improvements to offset the huge nerf to rolling holes. 'bout the only day-to-day thing I like about Hyperion is the sig ID's remaining static across DT. The rest varies between window-dressing and outright nerfs to w-space for those that live here.
Maybe Fozzie should actively try to kick us out, cuz that'll mean we get an awesome patch that will bring more people in. |
|
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2155
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 08:48:00 -
[1851] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote: net influx of pilots *moving into* w-space, I really doubt it.
Who said more pilots moving into w-space is a goal or a good idea.
More people interested and active in w-space is already a positive outcome. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 08:53:00 -
[1852] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Maduin Shi wrote: net influx of pilots *moving into* w-space, I really doubt it.
Who said more pilots moving into w-space is a goal or a good idea. More people interested and active in w-space is already a positive outcome.
There's a difference between a post-patch orgasm and a long-term relationship. |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 08:56:00 -
[1853] - Quote
Rei Moon wrote:Rahelis wrote:Ppl went to WHs to have "their own space".
Ppl even wrote that many time.
That is nothing than a carebears wet dream - farm as you like, control access to "your" space and fly caps any time without danger. There's no such thing as "without danger" in wspace, dummy. We don't have intel channels, we don't have gate camps, we don't have lots and lots of empty neighbour systems that nobody will care to roam into, trying to find us, when we try to farm anoms with officer fit ratting carriers, with full suport from our space owner coalitions, with cyno jammers and local chat intel. Oh and stations which can't be bashed for evicition... Now THAT is "without danger". No wonder nullsec farmers are soooooo bored that they wanna take an occasional dump on wspace. In case you don't know, enemies ragerolling could always find their way into us. Now try to capital escalate a C5 site when you're in triage or siege cycle and you get invaded. Good luck getting your officer fit s#it out to safety, in time
You don't need any officer stuff, T2 is doing well. You dont even need capitals to run the sites. Escalations .... are just another dimension which needs to be removed IMO. And still, this highly dangerous space with it's one static is the easiest to "lock up".
This distance spawn only nerfs defense closing(carebear behaviour). Ragerolling risk is not touched at all because of the new k-162 mechanic. It takes more time though. Nevertheless a joke compared to roll/close lower space wormholes.
I totally agree with you that we don't need this spawn thingy. It will not change anything and makes no sense. CCP better grab the cancer of eve by it's balls. They try it the other way around, but it seems not to work out ;)
This graph is using the npc kills in c5 as reference(while still being escalated by small groups and solo farmers). With 512 systems there compared to the 113 c6 systems with 80% more npc kills overall I start to think who is living there. Is it those PvP alliances doing non eviction pacts? Of course, the site spawn mechanic would work out pretty well that way. Wait...PvP alliances do PvE?
Well, I believe that this has gone far out of any ballance and has a big impact in the stagnating null also. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
557
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 09:11:00 -
[1854] - Quote
umnikar wrote:You don't need any officer stuff, T2 is doing well. You dont even need capitals to run the sites. Escalations .... are just another dimension which needs to be removed IMO. And still, this highly dangerous space with it's one static is the easiest to "lock up". This distance spawn only nerfs defense closing(carebear behaviour). Ragerolling risk is not touched at all because of the new k-162 mechanic. It takes more time though. Nevertheless a joke compared to roll/close lower space wormholes. I totally agree with you that we don't need this spawn thingy. It will not change anything and makes no sense. CCP better grab the cancer of eve by it's balls. They try it the other way around, but it seems not to work out ;) This graph is using the npc kills in c5 as reference(while still being escalated by small groups and solo farmers). With 512 systems there compared to the 113 c6 systems with 80% more npc kills overall I start to think who is living there. Is it those PvP alliances doing non eviction pacts? Of course, the site spawn mechanic would work out pretty well that way. Wait...PvP alliances do PvE? Well, I believe that this has gone far out of any ballance and has a big impact in the stagnating null also. Will players who have not been to wormholes please stop posting and at least read 2-5 WH guys posts?
It's not about how it makes rolling more dangerous, it's about people not rolling and afking for a day when they get a bad static.
Also the part where this is already super time consuming from before and this just makes it very tedious and long to the point where people just wont bother if there are 6 wormholes connecting to their systems.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1163
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 09:43:00 -
[1855] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:umnikar wrote:You don't need any officer stuff, T2 is doing well. You dont even need capitals to run the sites. Escalations .... are just another dimension which needs to be removed IMO. And still, this highly dangerous space with it's one static is the easiest to "lock up". This distance spawn only nerfs defense closing(carebear behaviour). Ragerolling risk is not touched at all because of the new k-162 mechanic. It takes more time though. Nevertheless a joke compared to roll/close lower space wormholes. I totally agree with you that we don't need this spawn thingy. It will not change anything and makes no sense. CCP better grab the cancer of eve by it's balls. They try it the other way around, but it seems not to work out ;) This graph is using the npc kills in c5 as reference(while still being escalated by small groups and solo farmers). With 512 systems there compared to the 113 c6 systems with 80% more npc kills overall I start to think who is living there. Is it those PvP alliances doing non eviction pacts? Of course, the site spawn mechanic would work out pretty well that way. Wait...PvP alliances do PvE? Well, I believe that this has gone far out of any ballance and has a big impact in the stagnating null also. Will players who have not been to wormholes please stop posting and at least read 2-5 WH guys posts? It's not about how it makes rolling more dangerous, it's about people not rolling and afking for a day when they get a bad static. Also the part where this is already super time consuming from before and this just makes it very tedious and long to the point where people just wont bother if there are 6 wormholes connecting to their systems. While were at it lets point out the part where you said caps shouldn't be used to run cap escalations. If there are no caps sieged and triaged and someone rolls into you people can just warp out. Surprise surprise, they can't do that now because siege/triage cycle lasts 3 minutes and is coupled with the big sig radius of carriers and dreads that are easy to scan down within that time. Fact is if you are doing cap escalations and someone better than you rolls into you. YOU GON DIE
There is such a phenomenal disconnect between the realities of wormhole life and the beliefs and explainations of those who live in Known space it is quite extraordinary.
I know human history is full of instances where people held the most rediculous preconceptions of how people live in other countries, and without mass communication it was impossible to gain the knowledge.
Now with television, internet etc, it is easy to gain access to knowledge, but people in the real world still believe the most absurd rubbish spouted by someone with an agenda.
Wormhole life is no different, one cannot expect everyone to live in one for a while and to see with their own eyes how absurd the claims are.
Just read things people, otherwise one sounds like some drunk at the bar in the pub, spouting racist or nationalistic second hand propaganda.
No one respects that, and only the other drunks agree.
Read and learn, and a far wider community will respect hearing educated views, and respect the speaker too.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Lenroc Elisav
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
43
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 11:23:00 -
[1856] - Quote
umnikar wrote: And still, this highly dangerous space with it's one static is the easiest to "lock up".
True and this stupid behavior is still possible after Hyperion. People can still lock themselves inside a system, a bit more difficult I admit but not that hard to achieve. |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
37
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 12:49:00 -
[1857] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:umnikar wrote:You don't need any officer stuff, T2 is doing well. You dont even need capitals to run the sites. Escalations .... are just another dimension which needs to be removed IMO. And still, this highly dangerous space with it's one static is the easiest to "lock up". This distance spawn only nerfs defense closing(carebear behaviour). Ragerolling risk is not touched at all because of the new k-162 mechanic. It takes more time though. Nevertheless a joke compared to roll/close lower space wormholes. I totally agree with you that we don't need this spawn thingy. It will not change anything and makes no sense. CCP better grab the cancer of eve by it's balls. They try it the other way around, but it seems not to work out ;) This graph is using the npc kills in c5 as reference(while still being escalated by small groups and solo farmers). With 512 systems there compared to the 113 c6 systems with 80% more npc kills overall I start to think who is living there. Is it those PvP alliances doing non eviction pacts? Of course, the site spawn mechanic would work out pretty well that way. Wait...PvP alliances do PvE? Well, I believe that this has gone far out of any ballance and has a big impact in the stagnating null also. Will players who have not been to wormholes please stop posting and at least read 2-5 WH guys posts? It's not about how it makes rolling more dangerous, it's about people not rolling and afking for a day when they get a bad static. Also the part where this is already super time consuming from before and this just makes it very tedious and long to the point where people just wont bother if there are 6 wormholes connecting to their systems. While were at it lets point out the part where you said caps shouldn't be used to run cap escalations. If there are no caps sieged and triaged and someone rolls into you people can just warp out. Surprise surprise, they can't do that now because siege/triage cycle lasts 3 minutes and is coupled with the big sig radius of carriers and dreads that are easy to scan down within that time. Fact is if you are doing cap escalations and someone better than you rolls into you. YOU GON DIE
I don't know why you assume I've not been in wh space. It was the only reason I still was playing eve, but that's not the point.
Not rolling because of bad static was always an issue of all wh space except c5/6 and became proportional more time consuming in lower classes with hyperion.
I didn't say cap escalations without caps. That would not make sense at all. I was more saying remove escalations and we are done ballancing. Then you don't have to field caps. ;)
I just want to understand the risk/reward ballance you always bring up here. It's not there. I pretty much understand that nobody likes capital losses on their kb, but it's not that you couldn't just replace it. I don't see that many cap kills, but I see that this space is farmed out the most. I also know how easy it is to roll those and the isk reward being 10x higher compared to c4 for example. And as you do the same sites 3 times the factor becomes 30. Not to mention that you handle the respawn mechanics as well... |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 13:44:00 -
[1858] - Quote
umnikar wrote:I didn't say cap escalations without caps. That would not make sense at all. I was more saying remove escalations and we are done ballancing. Then you don't have to field caps.
Then there'd be zero point in living in c5 and c6 holes... |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
56
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 14:39:00 -
[1859] - Quote
Sorry for my noobiness ,can you guys please explain me this one? How was it safe to get locked for farming before Hyperion if there were always guys rage rolling just to find a sieged/triaged cap, or battleships, or whatever "bear" (since nobody in this game had to make isk, only the nasty farmers) and there are plenty killboards to prove that? (Which by the way just became more annoying for the rage rollers)
Number two. Who in sane mind will do sites with 6 open holes, of which 3 are frig-only, when somebody just invades in an anathema and pops your static and there goes the alleged safety?
Number three. Will caps become a null/lowsex exclusive thing, since we won't be YOLOing them anymore, and cap escalations Are meant to be nerfed/removed?
Finally CCP, WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE DUSETTES? ???? |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
38
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:12:00 -
[1860] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:umnikar wrote:I didn't say cap escalations without caps. That would not make sense at all. I was more saying remove escalations and we are done ballancing. Then you don't have to field caps. Then there'd be zero point in living in c5 and c6 holes... .
The sites do pay out with 150-300m and adding up in line with lower classes income but still have the easier closing mechanic...living with higher risk being evicted though. That's the PvE pov... But while reading all over here is PvP the "offical" reason to be in c5/6, isn't it? Sure, being on that end it's easy to say so. |
|
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:32:00 -
[1861] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Skotos Melek wrote:Well, just cancelled my alt (this account) because of CCP idiocy on this change. Will keep the other account as long as I can plex it to see if they maybe get smart and undo their mistake (not likely) but this account isn't going to be of any use to me if I can't use it the way I intended to in wh space. Unsubbing is the only thing CCP can't afford to ignore. Thank you. I unsubbed 10 accounts citing this patch as the reason. I'll see if the changes roll back before game time runs out...
If you unsub accounts that were paid entirely with PLEX paid with ISK easily gained by the multiplicity of said accounts, I doubt CCP will have reasons to notice. In fact it may help bring the prices of plex down as there will be less demand for said PLEX, and possibly even validate CCP choices as obviously the changes in Hyperion is to make WH less carebears friendly.
Now if you were subbing with real money, they will notice, unless they find that other players start subbing to fill the voids.
Overall, I believe Unsubbing is only meaningful if accounts were paid monthly with real money, and not from the ISK generated in gAme. So as you are the only one, with CCP, that can truly tell how you paid for your accounts, only you and CCP knows the validity of the point you want to make. Posting about this in the forums is kind of meaningless as it does not tell the whole story, and you also could want to project a specific ire to further you own agenda...
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
umnikar
Fishbone Industries
38
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:41:00 -
[1862] - Quote
Rei Moon wrote:Sorry for my noobiness ,can you guys please explain me this one? How was it safe to get locked for farming before Hyperion if there were always guys rage rolling just to find a sieged/triaged cap, or battleships, or whatever "bear" (since nobody in this game had to make isk, only the nasty farmers) and there are plenty killboards to prove that? (Which by the way just became more annoying for the rage rollers)
Number two. Who in sane mind will do sites with 6 open holes, of which 3 are frig-only, when somebody just invades in an anathema and pops your static and there goes the alleged safety?
Number three. Will caps become a null/lowsex exclusive thing, since we won't be YOLOing them anymore, and cap escalations Are meant to be nerfed/removed?
Finally CCP, WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE DUSETTES? ????
CCP already stated that escalations never were meant to be farmed. They are there to prevent people warping in capitals. God knows why it was not fixed in time. Maybe ccp likes to be in the news with super big fights?
It just goes over the top that people who farmed that over a long time are getting bored of their richness, just log in for the pew and even get changes implemented which opens up all other wh space, so they can easier "take" content.
Doing all this on the back of people who probably pay their account by cash and call em bears and so on... |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:43:00 -
[1863] - Quote
Saisin wrote:If you unsub accounts that were paid entirely with PLEX paid with ISK easily gained by the multiplicity of said accounts, I doubt CCP will have reasons to notice. In fact it may help bring the prices of plex down as there will be less demand for said PLEX, and possibly even validate CCP choices as obviously the changes in Hyperion is to make WH less carebears friendly.
Now if you were subbing with real money, they will notice, unless they find that other players start subbing to fill the voids.
It doesn't matter if you sub with plex or with cash. Bottom line someone is paying for it by cash and it line the pockets of CCP. If someone cancel his 10 accounts or whatever, that is 10 less subs for CCP.
And been on both sides of explosions in sites in wspace, there is nothing carebear friendly about wspace what so ever tbh.
|
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 15:59:00 -
[1864] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:I don't quite understand whats this plex bullshit.
If I plex an account (I have used both plexes and IRL cash) that means someone BOUGHT that plex from CCP or a reseller, for +-20$ correct? A month sub is 15$
So in a way if someone plexes an account, doesn't that mean that CCP is making MORE money? And as Plexes go up in ISK price, that means more people would be interested in using cash to buy them, thus making CCP EVEN MORE MONEY.
So... why would CCP not want people to play with plex again? NO seriously, if you can't explain this to me then you are obviously talking out of that ******* you call a mouth.
The main reason, in my mind, that linking PLEX to real life money is not necessarily a good way to look at things is that PLEXes have already been paid for.
Any company relies on steady income every month, and the money that went into the plex is not money coming in now... subs is money coming in now, every month, which is why the subs are cheaper than PLEX.
We can't know how CCP manages its accounting, but this is a very important difference between plex and real money, and one that often get ignored on these forums.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1164
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 16:05:00 -
[1865] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Anize Oramara wrote:I don't quite understand whats this plex bullshit.
If I plex an account (I have used both plexes and IRL cash) that means someone BOUGHT that plex from CCP or a reseller, for +-20$ correct? A month sub is 15$
So in a way if someone plexes an account, doesn't that mean that CCP is making MORE money? And as Plexes go up in ISK price, that means more people would be interested in using cash to buy them, thus making CCP EVEN MORE MONEY.
So... why would CCP not want people to play with plex again? NO seriously, if you can't explain this to me then you are obviously talking out of that ******* you call a mouth. The main reason, in my mind, that linking PLEX to real life money is not necessarily a good way to look at things is that PLEXes have already been paid for. Any company relies on steady income every month, and the money that went into the plex is not money coming in now... subs is money coming in now, every month, which is why the subs are cheaper than PLEX. We can't know how CCP manages its accounting, but this is a very important difference between plex and real money, and one that often get ignored on these forums.
It does not matter how accounts are paid, people leaving are gone! A customer lost.
That is a loss to CCP and the game, and only those who are completely disassociated from reality could possibly think otherwise. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
131
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 16:05:00 -
[1866] - Quote
Ruffio Sepico wrote:Saisin wrote:If you unsub accounts that were paid entirely with PLEX paid with ISK easily gained by the multiplicity of said accounts, I doubt CCP will have reasons to notice. In fact it may help bring the prices of plex down as there will be less demand for said PLEX, and possibly even validate CCP choices as obviously the changes in Hyperion is to make WH less carebears friendly.
Now if you were subbing with real money, they will notice, unless they find that other players start subbing to fill the voids.
It doesn't matter if you sub with plex or with cash. Bottom line someone is paying for it by cash and it line the pockets of CCP. If someone cancel his 10 accounts or whatever, that is 10 less subs for CCP. And been on both sides of explosions in sites in wspace, there is nothing carebear friendly about wspace what so ever tbh.
See my post above about the plex/money thing..
The ability to easily collapse and isolate was total carebearing, until the next k162 apparition. Then you would scout it, see if it is a danger, and if not collapse it to and resume carebearing...
Now that k162 appears a bit later, when a fleet is ready to jump, and that collapsing is more difficult, I will indeed stop calling those that choose to stay carebears, as they won't be anymore... They will be dangerbears :)
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
134
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 16:05:00 -
[1867] - Quote
Who cares this is about mass-based WH spawn distance and not about plex |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
18
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 16:10:00 -
[1868] - Quote
umnikar wrote:Rei Moon wrote:Sorry for my noobiness ,can you guys please explain me this one? How was it safe to get locked for farming before Hyperion if there were always guys rage rolling just to find a sieged/triaged cap, or battleships, or whatever "bear" (since nobody in this game had to make isk, only the nasty farmers) and there are plenty killboards to prove that? (Which by the way just became more annoying for the rage rollers)
Number two. Who in sane mind will do sites with 6 open holes, of which 3 are frig-only, when somebody just invades in an anathema and pops your static and there goes the alleged safety?
Number three. Will caps become a null/lowsex exclusive thing, since we won't be YOLOing them anymore, and cap escalations Are meant to be nerfed/removed?
Finally CCP, WHAT DID YOU DO TO THE DUSETTES? ???? CCP already stated that escalations never were meant to be farmed. They are there to prevent people warping in capitals. God knows why it was not fixed in time. Maybe ccp likes to be in the news with super big fights? It just goes over the top that people who farmed that over a long time are getting bored of their richness, just log in for the pew and even get changes implemented which opens up all other wh space, so they can easier "take" content. Doing all this on the back of people who probably pay their account by cash and call em bears and so on...
The ability to run escelations, is what make it possible for groups to get of some size in wspace too. If you remove escelations, a c5/c6 wouldn't support as many players really. And for those interested in more pvp oriented content, rolling static is more about find something to blow up than to grind pve.
Not everyone in c5/c6 is space rich. and the prospect of lose your ships running an escelation when someone dial into you carries a considerable cost too. In the terms of the cost of the tools you field vs what you actually gain. It's not that much. Beside replacing loss's in pvp cost as well.
I know some players running incursion with alts to supplement income to cover habbits living in wspace. If you want to look at isk being spent on plex's I would think incursion cover more of that than wspace tbh.
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
175
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 16:49:00 -
[1869] - Quote
Ruffio Sepico wrote:umnikar wrote:CCP already stated that escalations never were meant to be farmed. They are there to prevent people warping in capitals. God knows why it was not fixed in time. Maybe ccp likes to be in the news with super big fights?
It just goes over the top that people who farmed that over a long time are getting bored of their richness, just log in for the pew and even get changes implemented which opens up all other wh space, so they can easier "take" content.
Doing all this on the back of people who probably pay their account by cash and call em bears and so on... The ability to run escelations, is what make it possible for groups to get of some size in wspace too. If you remove escelations, a c5/c6 wouldn't support as many players really. And for those interested in more pvp oriented content, rolling static is more about find something to blow up than to grind pve. Not everyone in c5/c6 is space rich. and the prospect of lose your ships running an escelation when someone dial into you carries a considerable cost too. In the terms of the cost of the tools you field vs what you actually gain. It's not that much. Beside replacing loss's in pvp cost as well. I know some players running incursion with alts to supplement income to cover habbits living in wspace. If you want to look at isk being spent on plex's I would think incursion cover more of that than wspace tbh. Okay, I see someone referring to "farming escalations" and I think some folks here don't understand that mechanic, so I'll explain a little. Intended or not, I know more active wormhole groups do this because of the low respawn rate in many C5 and C6 wormholes.
The mechanism is this: You enter a combat site and mark the trigger ship from a wave. You then do your standard starting escalation group (assuming this is a small group, not some 300 man corp) of 1 carrier, 1 dread, and 1 webbing loki. They cause an additional 14 or so sleeper BS to spawn. These are all killed. As the number of BSes drops, a second dread (or several, as you only get 2 escalation waves per site per capital type) warp in. As the numbers of escalation BSes drop, a second carrier is brought in, maybe with some subcap support ships to clear unnecessary frigates or cruisers, leaving the trigger ship intact. Once down to just that trigger, the site gets salvaged, with one carrier supporting the Noctis to prevent that final sleeper from harming it. After that, the two ships leave the site, refitting as needed with warp core stabs.
The reason that one trigger ship is left alive is to prevent the site from being "completed" and thus having it despawn. This means that, after downtime, all the sleepers will be back and it can be escalated again. This can go on for several days, with several sites, and is an important adaptation for a busy C5 or C6 or there isn't enough PVE content generation in a week to last more than a day. This is a player workaround for all the inactive systems in a constellation not being used by anyone, to deal with the poor respawn rates and annoyance of not having content easily available.
The really large wormhole corps in C6s do this sort of thing a lot as new sites are probably very slow to appear, much less enough to support 100+ people in a single hole. The difference is that those 100+ people can also run around in PVP fleets right after all the PVE content is exhausted for the day, because all those "bearish tactics" like rolling your exits shut also happen to be the first step in starting a PVP ragerolling session. Go figure, eh? Security is important for any activity in a WH, not just PVE. Anyone who thinks otherwise has never lived and fought in one before. |
Senji Vuran
Revenant Tactical
12
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 17:41:00 -
[1870] - Quote
umnikar wrote:
CCP already stated that escalations never were meant to be farmed. They are there to prevent people warping in capitals. God knows why it was not fixed in time. Maybe ccp likes to be in the news with super big fights?
[Citation Needed] http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/wikipedian_protester.png |
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Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
789
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 18:01:00 -
[1871] - Quote
Ruffio Sepico wrote: Not everyone in c5/c6 is space rich. and the prospect of lose your ships running an escelation when someone dial into you carries a considerable cost too. In the terms of the cost of the tools you field vs what you actually gain. It's not that much. Beside replacing loss's in pvp cost as well.
I know some players running incursion with alts to supplement income to cover habbits living in wspace. If you want to look at isk being spent on plex's I would think incursion cover more of that than wspace tbh.
While its relatively easy to replace the tools of the trade and put a little aside for a rainy day you actually have to be somewhat motivated and put some effort in to make a lot of ISK from C5/6 sites as part of a medium to large corp.
If it was just about making ISK I'd be able to make more and a lot safer farming a certain k-space NPC faction with the characters and setup I have, it would also be mind numbingly boring. |
Skotos Melek
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 18:13:00 -
[1872] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Skotos Melek wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Gunner GzR wrote:k lets make these changes fair
1. remove local from Null 2. when jumping to a cyno make it spawn out to 20 km from said cyno based on mass 3. if warp scrambled or disrupted you can not dock in a station or jump through a gate
Now Null will be like w space and as i have read by the null pilots posting...and i Quote "Totally safe to farm in my carrier" I approve. +1 Keep the wormhole changes and DO THIS TO NULL!!! They need a shake up! ...With point 3 though atleast make the agression timer more than 1 minute. oh and point 2 make a cyno point for insta docking on all stations. That way frieghter [pilots dont get screwed. I just gained a little bit of respect for you. I figured you were just trolling and enjoying the pain of us Wh dwellers. I want to see the whole thing rolled back, but it would make me feel a little better if they did this to the entire game and I got to see those who have been laughing at our pain crying themselves. +1 for a good post. LOL I am a WH dweller! From what I can see your not though, an NPC Corp toon cant live in a WH, well not with out the support of mains... And no, I dotn troll... What I have been trying to do is get people to THINK rather than REACT! I know its only human but... these changes are the best thing since the invention of EVE... Change is good, it keeps us thinking and in the end thats the only way we will stay playing this game. If you get bored you leave. EDIT: Mind you there are a few tweeks required (like mentioned in the frigate wormhole thread)...
We will have to agree to disagree about one change in particular. The rest I am fine with. And you are right, this isn't my main, I have been an exclusive wh dweller for some time now. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
53
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 19:09:00 -
[1873] - Quote
NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2161
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 19:15:00 -
[1874] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant.
When you mature and learn something about this game. you'll post with an alt too. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
65
|
Posted - 2014.08.29 19:36:00 -
[1875] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant.
nope not always true. many of my NPC alts live at my POS with me to do PI in the WH. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
558
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 00:20:00 -
[1876] - Quote
What is this.
CCP dares to advertise better black holes in Hyperion?
How are they better when all the nano ships start at 0 on WHs.
Nano doesn't exactly mean brawl.
These *cough* *people* really have no idea about wormholes.
Its like changing DNA and saying hey these new nucleobases aren't bad they aren't poisonous. Why CCP you can't know the effects from your bullshit numbers on paper if you NEVER lived in WH.
How many of your devs lived in a wormhole? I bet they are all nullsec blob mongers like fozzie.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 01:20:00 -
[1877] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant. When you mature and learn something about this game. you'll post with an alt too.
No, no I won't. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 01:22:00 -
[1878] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant. nope not always true. many of my NPC alts live at my POS with me to do PI in the WH.
I didn't say there aren't NPC alts in w-space. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
175
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 01:39:00 -
[1879] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant. You are both naive and uninventive. Congratulations that you have just shared this with the Forums. Please, lets have a moment of silence before many of us point and laugh...
Okay, now that that's over with...
NPC mains can do a lot in WH space, from day tripping, to POS bashing and raiding, to living in POSes kindly set up by the unimaginably vast network of holding corps that spans much of the game. All it takes is a little preparation, a little assistance, and a little... whatdoyacallit.... Oh, yeah, Innovation. It's called "thinking outside the POS bubble" by some, or just not tying yourself to one spot for too long for others.
You see, a while back, the kind folks at CCP came out with these great lil' things called Mobile Despots. You can bring them in yourself, or you can pull one outta your friend's fleet hangar, and find a nice safe spot and then refit with it. It's great! I can refill drone bays, and change fittings, and even store plunder and loot inside! Best part of all, if someone shoots it, it reinforces for two whole days! This allows me plenty of time to empty it and scoop it, only to drop it in another spot another day, often in another system! Heck, I could even refit my T3 with it now, so I never have to dock again!
Best part is, with the recent changes to DSTs, I can go afield for days inside a WH chain! Just need an alt, both ships have a cloak, and at least one char with a probe launcher. With that I'm set for a long weekend, week, or even month of zero fuel bills, zero renters fees, and zero effective taxes!. That's right, folks! Those nasty 11% NPC corp taxes getting you down? How about hunting the wiley Sleeper and selling it's blue loot to another, different NPC corp? See, that way I pay nothing of my hard earned money to my corp, and just a teeny tiny little tax to the nameless, facelss taxmongers of the SCC, and I do it all just the same as those Player Corp guys seem to do it... without all that pesky overhead.
So now that I should have eased some of your trollish brows that NPC corp characters can, and do, function in wormholes, how about we get back to our regularly scheduled thread about how much many of us hate the new mass based spawn changes to our favorite WHs? |
Winthorp
2659
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 01:42:00 -
[1880] - Quote
One day i hope for a better world, a world in which we can all achieve harmony and inevitably a world in which NPC alts don't post on the forums thinking they have a right to an opinion.... One day CCP, one day. |
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Kirasten
No Vacancies
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 02:50:00 -
[1881] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant. You are both naive and uninventive. Congratulations that you have just shared this with the Forums. Please, lets have a moment of silence before many of us point and laugh... Okay, now that that's over with... NPC mains can do a lot in WH space, from day tripping, to POS bashing and raiding, to living in POSes kindly set up by the unimaginably vast network of holding corps that spans much of the game. All it takes is a little preparation, a little assistance, and a little... whatdoyacallit.... Oh, yeah, Innovation. It's called "thinking outside the POS bubble" by some, or just not tying yourself to one spot for too long for others. You see, a while back, the kind folks at CCP came out with these great lil' things called Mobile Despots. You can bring them in yourself, or you can pull one outta your friend's fleet hangar, and find a nice safe spot and then refit with it. It's great! I can refill drone bays, and change fittings, and even store plunder and loot inside! Best part of all, if someone shoots it, it reinforces for two whole days! This allows me plenty of time to empty it and scoop it, only to drop it in another spot another day, often in another system! Heck, I could even refit my T3 with it now, so I never have to dock again! Best part is, with the recent changes to DSTs, I can go afield for days inside a WH chain! Just need an alt, both ships have a cloak, and at least one char with a probe launcher. With that I'm set for a long weekend, week, or even month of zero fuel bills, zero renters fees, and zero effective taxes!. That's right, folks! Those nasty 11% NPC corp taxes getting you down? How about hunting the wiley Sleeper and selling it's blue loot to another, different NPC corp? See, that way I pay nothing of my hard earned money to my corp, and just a teeny tiny little tax to the nameless, facelss taxmongers of the SCC, and I do it all just the same as those Player Corp guys seem to do it... without all that pesky overhead. So now that I should have eased some of your trollish brows that NPC corp characters can, and do, function in wormholes, how about we get back to our regularly scheduled thread about how much many of us hate the new mass based spawn changes to our favorite WHs?
Why is reading comprehension so bad? Never once did I say anything about NPC mains. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
558
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 02:57:00 -
[1882] - Quote
Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:03:00 -
[1883] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this.
I think their response was pretty clear, personally. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1166
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:03:00 -
[1884] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this.
I really hope it comes soon, every day, someones account runs out of time, and if they do not buy a plex or buy game time, then they won't be back even if it changes the next day.
And each day someone gets closer to that time.
I am not saying that everyone will leave, they will not, but even one player is a loss to eve, a loss to wormhole space, and a loss to us all.
These changes are always touted as a way to get more players to join EVE.
Why are we getting changes that do nothing to encourage new players and only make us lose the ones we have?
Is there a master plan that none of us see, where this is a good thing? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
558
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:05:00 -
[1885] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this. I think their response was pretty clear, personally. You mean the lack of thereof?
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:20:00 -
[1886] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Kirasten wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this. I think their response was pretty clear, personally. You mean the lack of thereof?
No. I mean that they launched as planned in spite of the fact that 75% of the players hated it, and a fair portion of those that didn't live in k-space. It would probably be fair to say that 90% or more of the players that actually live in a wh did not want this change. And ccp didn't budge.
Sounds like an answer to me. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1166
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:25:00 -
[1887] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Kirasten wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this. I think their response was pretty clear, personally. You mean the lack of thereof? No. I mean that they launched as planned in spite of the fact that 75% of the players hated it, and a fair portion of those that didn't live in k-space. It would probably be fair to say that 90% or more of the players that actually live in a wh did not want this change. And ccp didn't budge. Sounds like an answer to me.
Well we can only judge them by their actions, the final choice will be theirs, unfortunately there are quite a few who are also making their own plans accordingly.
Such things that seem so insignificant to those outside wormhole space, are the things that force people to make large and final decisions.
The clock is ticking, when it reaches that players time to buy game time, is when they no longer care or are able to be persuaded. There is not a seconds waiting beyond that point for change to occur.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
175
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:26:00 -
[1888] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Why is reading comprehension so bad? Never once did I say anything about NPC mains. Oh, I'm sorry, must be me, but I just read something a little bit ago... where was it.. I'll quote it again for you:
Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant. I guess you confused that fact that a main character can be in an NPC corp. Or maybe it's that an "alt" might not be a "main" might not be an "alt" in your eyes?
I might have misread, but you referred to NPC corps with such disdain, I felt the overwhelming bias three threads over. You see to assume that NPC = Alt is one of those things we call prejudice. Cause that's what I read in your little post, cause you seem to think it takes a player corp to function inside a wormhole. I was attempting to enlighten you as to how NPC corps can function inside those things we're all talking about, because you apparently don't think we can.
Now, to further explain a little danger most of us know, a POS is a great, bright, visible cage we can anchor in space. We can "hide" inside it, but at that point we're not much better off than the apes at the zoo are, cause everyone just flies by, points, looks up facts about us, learns the history of us, and decides that, in the end, these caged things are boring and move on. Now, these cages make the guys inside feel all warm and fuzzy and safe. They can even store stuff in it. Super easy to find, even easier to shoot, and the don't hold up all that well to a stiff breeze or a loss of interest in EVE. I keep finding dead ones belonging to dead corps all over W-space. Some have stuff in them. Lots don't. Not sure what happened to the guys inside. Lots died. Some left. Other just lost interest and faded out.
The point of this? Just because someone claims they can stick a POS in a WH doesn't mean they are really living in the WH. Many are just sitting in the little cage, afraid of what's outside. But hey, at least there's PI, right? |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:39:00 -
[1889] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:stuff I understand that this is your main however to be fair 99% of the people who post stuff on the forums with a npc corp toon are not using their main...or even a char they logon to often, so when you post on your npc main it looks like you are using an alt as what you are doing is extremely rare. IMHO I suggest posting something to the effect this is your main in your forum sig to better explain that you are infact on your main and not an alt...even then expect to have to explain this every so often. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:43:00 -
[1890] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Kirasten wrote:Why is reading comprehension so bad? Never once did I say anything about NPC mains. Oh, I'm sorry, must be me, but I just read something a little bit ago... where was it.. I'll quote it again for you: Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant. I guess you confused that fact that a main character can be in an NPC corp. Or maybe it's that an "alt" might not be a "main" might not be an "alt" in your eyes? I might have misread, but you referred to NPC corps with such disdain, I felt the overwhelming bias three threads over. You see to assume that NPC = Alt is one of those things we call prejudice. Cause that's what I read in your little post, cause you seem to think it takes a player corp to function inside a wormhole. I was attempting to enlighten you as to how NPC corps can function inside those things we're all talking about, because you apparently don't think we can. Now, to further explain a little danger most of us know, a POS is a great, bright, visible cage we can anchor in space. We can "hide" inside it, but at that point we're not much better off than the apes at the zoo are, cause everyone just flies by, points, looks up facts about us, learns the history of us, and decides that, in the end, these caged things are boring and move on. Now, these cages make the guys inside feel all warm and fuzzy and safe. They can even store stuff in it. Super easy to find, even easier to shoot, and the don't hold up all that well to a stiff breeze or a loss of interest in EVE. I keep finding dead ones belonging to dead corps all over W-space. Some have stuff in them. Lots don't. Not sure what happened to the guys inside. Lots died. Some left. Other just lost interest and faded out. The point of this? Just because someone claims they can stick a POS in a WH doesn't mean they are really living in the WH. Many are just sitting in the little cage, afraid of what's outside. But hey, at least there's PI, right?
Ok, let me clarify for the people who still don't seem to understand what I wrote. I could care less about if people play in a player or a NPC corp. Never once did I say ANYTHING about a person's choice to play in whatever corp they like. What I DID say is that a Post on the wormhole section of the forums made by an NPC ALT carries no weight.
Be accountable for your actions.
Hopefully this will stop you from ranting at me about things I didn't say. |
|
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
176
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 03:54:00 -
[1891] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:stuff I understand that this is your main however to be fair 99% of the people who post stuff on the forums with a npc corp toon are not using their main...or even a char they logon to often, so when you post on your npc main it looks like you are using an alt as what you are doing is extremely rare. IMHO I suggest posting something to the effect this is your main in your forum sig to better explain that you are infact on your main and not an alt...even then expect to have to explain this every so often. Trying to make a point.
I'm not going to assume every NPC corp player is an alt because I know better. Not being in a player corp can't automatically be a reason not to listen to someone's views. If you can't tell where the view is coming from, ask. Don't immediately throw it aside with the understanding that's tolerable. That kind of reaction can easily be used on Goons (as I know I have my own prejudices there) as well as many other groups in game.
Isn't what's being said and why part of the process for filtering as much as who the character was in a corp with? For all anyone knows of Winthorp, that character could have been sold on the Character Bazaar and it's not even the same person that was in Hard Knocks that everyone seems to automatically assume it is. I don't know either way. But when someone, such as Winthorp comes in and tries to throw his weight around, and tries to dismiss folks based purely on what the character history is, its all smoke and mirrors and meaningless. For all the credence some folks give that avatar, I have no clue if he's been in a wormhole or not. Most of his statements have nothing to do with the WH threads he posts in. Because I don't know the player behind that character, I dismiss that character because there is a lack of meaning behind the posts.
Many players I know buy and sell characters for all manner of uses. So who really are you assuming anyone is? This character (mine) may have been started by me and trained every second of every day until now. Alternatively I could be using something I bought from another player, or be simply coming back to the game after 14 months of inactivity. The words I read tell me all I need to know, not where the character's been, or maybe who it flew alongside once upon a time. My words have enough experience behind them that I can get at least a little recognition, if not respect, from some of the other vocal folks in here. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
54
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 04:00:00 -
[1892] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:stuff I understand that this is your main however to be fair 99% of the people who post stuff on the forums with a npc corp toon are not using their main...or even a char they logon to often, so when you post on your npc main it looks like you are using an alt as what you are doing is extremely rare. IMHO I suggest posting something to the effect this is your main in your forum sig to better explain that you are infact on your main and not an alt...even then expect to have to explain this every so often. Trying to make a point. I'm not going to assume every NPC corp player is an alt because I know better. Not being in a player corp can't automatically be a reason not to listen to someone's views. If you can't tell where the view is coming from, ask. Don't immediately throw it aside with the understanding that's tolerable. That kind of reaction can easily be used on Goons (as I know I have my own prejudices there) as well as many other groups in game. Isn't what's being said and why part of the process for filtering as much as who the character was in a corp with? For all anyone knows of Winthorp, that character could have been sold on the Character Bazaar and it's not even the same person that was in Hard Knocks that everyone seems to automatically assume it is. I don't know either way. But when someone, such as Winthorp comes in and tries to throw his weight around, and tries to dismiss folks based purely on what the character history is, its all smoke and mirrors and meaningless. For all the credence some folks give that avatar, I have no clue if he's been in a wormhole or not. Most of his statements have nothing to do with the WH threads he posts in. Because I don't know the player behind that character, I dismiss that character because there is a lack of meaning behind the posts. Many players I know buy and sell characters for all manner of uses. So who really are you assuming anyone is? This character (mine) may have been started by me and trained every second of every day until now. Alternatively I could be using something I bought from another player, or be simply coming back to the game after 14 months of inactivity. The words I read tell me all I need to know, not where the character's been, or maybe who it flew alongside once upon a time. My words have enough experience behind them that I can get at least a little recognition, if not respect, from some of the other vocal folks in here.
So all this raging was because you thought I was talking about you???
LMAO |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
176
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 04:11:00 -
[1893] - Quote
Kirasten wrote: Ok, let me clarify for the people who still don't seem to understand what I wrote. I could care less about if people play in a player or a NPC corp. Never once did I say ANYTHING about a person's choice to play in whatever corp they like. What I DID say is that a Post on the wormhole section of the forums made by an NPC ALT carries no weight.
Be accountable for your actions.
Hopefully this will stop you from ranting at me about things I didn't say.
Very well, then. See my post, the one just above this. Read what it says. Just because a character looks like something that's an alt, have you looked at anything beyond the surface for what was written? If they are giving short, glib responses, ask for more depth or just dismiss them outright. Don't respond with dismissive insults, please. It diminishes us all.
I am attempting to explain in great detail about my point of view. I'm sorry if it doesn't address your concerns regarding NPC corp members or suspected alts. But the entire message here is that NPC corps have a great deal of functionality, and can do almost everything a player corp can do. This isn't a valid reason to dismiss NPC corp characters from engaging in discussion about wormholes.
The other message is we can't know where the experiences being voiced are coming from when an avatar appears and speaks in the forums. Some players may fly alongside some of these guys, but I don't have that data, and can't tell someone's purchased character being used as a mouthpiece from a forum-only NPC corp alt. I read what is said, and respond to that information. Granted, sometimes there is a lack of data in a response so, like I am doing with you, I run a dialog to determine who or what I am speaking with.
I get that I am putting you on the spot a bit. Not trying to be harsh here, but when I get that someone is trolling a large segment of my friends and fellow players based on a prejudice, it does get my blood up a bit. So sorry if I came off as a total *****. But characters such as Winthorp decided to troll me directly for several pages of this thread without ISD intervention, so I am being more than a little proactive about crushing folks that have similar... views. |
Winthorp
2659
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 04:13:00 -
[1894] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: Isn't what's being said and why part of the process for filtering as much as who the character was in a corp with? For all anyone knows of Winthorp, that character could have been sold on the Character Bazaar and it's not even the same person that was in Hard Knocks that everyone seems to automatically assume it is. I don't know either way. But when someone, such as Winthorp comes in and tries to throw his weight around, and tries to dismiss folks based purely on what the character history is, its all smoke and mirrors and meaningless. For all the credence some folks give that avatar, I have no clue if he's been in a wormhole or not. Most of his statements have nothing to do with the WH threads he posts in. Because I don't know the player behind that character, I dismiss that character because there is a lack of meaning behind the posts.
Perhaps you don't know me because you are an NPC alt that lives in HS, how would you ever know me if that is your background.
What me posting with my main does though is gives people the chance to read what i say look at my history and judge for themselves, it doesn't make my opinion any more right then someone from another WH corp but it is of much more value then someone who has no WH history to speak of and seems to be too scared for some bizarre reason to post on his main. (Does your mains corp not allow you to have an opinion? If so they are bad and you should leave)
Yes this toon was bought right before it joined SSC, this is something that people can easily check by forum search functions and that search will show you my old main with even more WH history, perhaps you don't know this because you live in HS and have never joined a player owned corporation and interacted with other people.
Also i really have no weight at all to throw around so i am not sure what you are getting at here?
You seem very mad i won't enter into any discussions on actual WH mechanics with you while you are in an NPC corp. It isn't just me who refuses to talk to NPC alts a lot of people won't even bother to read your posts let alone respond to you. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
176
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 04:33:00 -
[1895] - Quote
Winthorp wrote:Perhaps you don't know me because you are an NPC alt that lives in HS, how would you ever know me if that is your background.
What me posting with my main does though is gives people the chance to read what i say look at my history and judge for themselves, it doesn't make my opinion any more right then someone from another WH corp but it is of much more value then someone who has no WH history to speak of and seems to be too scared for some bizarre reason to post on his main. (Does your mains corp not allow you to have an opinion? If so they are bad and you should leave)
Yes this toon was bought right before it joined SSC, this is something that people can easily check by forum search functions and that search will show you my old main with even more WH history, perhaps you don't know this because you live in HS and have never joined a player owned corporation and interacted with other people.
Also i really have no weight at all to throw around so i am not sure what you are getting at here?
You seem very mad i won't enter into any discussions on actual WH mechanics with you while you are in an NPC corp. It isn't just me who refuses to talk to NPC alts a lot of people won't even bother to read your posts let alone respond to you. I don't know you because I don't know you. My corpmates for the WH group I am part of had little idea who Hard Knocks was until the looked them up on http://www.evewho.com/ not that it really matters. Most of us don't spend a lot of time together as most work, most work weekdays, and most have families. Stuff other than EVE does exist out there.
As far as my posting on that character instead of this one, you would get the same complete lack of information about me. The character joined the C5 corp not long before the API was removed from all WH systems. The C3 career was unremarkable for PVP, so little if any data existed before I moved up to the other hole.
As it's corp policy to not post our kills on public servers, I followed as my seniors instructed and maintained silence. You might not know this, but there is a large segment of the W-space community that believes information blackouts are a great tactic, and ultimately what you don't know may kill you. If I don't post about my conquests and losses, and the other guy doesn't either, then your information resources show you nothing even if you do get my name. Together with the lack of farming API data for when we're online, suddenly a corp that sieges us has far less of an advantage than they used to. This is part of the beauty of using an NPC character in a WH because its so hard to scout your targets effectively while cloaked or just using D-scan. That's one tactic for living inside W-space, and it seems to work well enough.
I suspected the part about the character sale when I browsed your corp history. This is another example of how information is power. That said, I am a member of CAS, which has a proud history of maintaining members in the NPC corp to help new players and show the otherwise lost a few ways to live in EVE while avoiding some of the less obvious pitfalls, no matter the sec status or space being used. |
Winthorp
2659
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 04:46:00 -
[1896] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Winthorp wrote:Perhaps you don't know me because you are an NPC alt that lives in HS, how would you ever know me if that is your background.
What me posting with my main does though is gives people the chance to read what i say look at my history and judge for themselves, it doesn't make my opinion any more right then someone from another WH corp but it is of much more value then someone who has no WH history to speak of and seems to be too scared for some bizarre reason to post on his main. (Does your mains corp not allow you to have an opinion? If so they are bad and you should leave)
Yes this toon was bought right before it joined SSC, this is something that people can easily check by forum search functions and that search will show you my old main with even more WH history, perhaps you don't know this because you live in HS and have never joined a player owned corporation and interacted with other people.
Also i really have no weight at all to throw around so i am not sure what you are getting at here?
You seem very mad i won't enter into any discussions on actual WH mechanics with you while you are in an NPC corp. It isn't just me who refuses to talk to NPC alts a lot of people won't even bother to read your posts let alone respond to you. I don't know you because I don't know you. My corpmates for the WH group I am part of had little idea who Hard Knocks was until the looked them up on http://www.evewho.com/ not that it really matters. Most of us don't spend a lot of time together as most work, most work weekdays, and most have families. Stuff other than EVE does exist out there. As far as my posting on that character instead of this one, you would get the same complete lack of information about me. The character joined the C5 corp not long before the API was removed from all WH systems. The C3 career was unremarkable for PVP, so little if any data existed before I moved up to the other hole. As it's corp policy to not post our kills on public servers, I followed as my seniors instructed and maintained silence. You might not know this, but there is a large segment of the W-space community that believes information blackouts are a great tactic, and ultimately what you don't know may kill you. If I don't post about my conquests and losses, and the other guy doesn't either, then your information resources show you nothing even if you do get my name. Together with the lack of farming API data for when we're online, suddenly a corp that sieges us has far less of an advantage than they used to. This is part of the beauty of using an NPC character in a WH because its so hard to scout your targets effectively while cloaked or just using D-scan. That's one tactic for living inside W-space, and it seems to work well enough. I suspected the part about the character sale when I browsed your corp history. This is another example of how information is power. That said, I am a member of CAS, which has a proud history of maintaining members in the NPC corp to help new players and show the otherwise lost a few ways to live in EVE while avoiding some of the less obvious pitfalls, no matter the sec status or space being used.
< Honestly that is the best response i can give you while you remain on an NPC alt, use all the stupid, special snowlflake reasons you like the only fact remains is that you are an NPC alt and not many people will ever take you seriously. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 05:27:00 -
[1897] - Quote
logged in today with a total of 6 of us on comms, got told we rolled into .EOL. so me being me i went over to have a look and sure enough they got more ships on dscan than we could field atm including alts. didnt confirm how many were piloted due to hostiles camping the hole with bubble ships and seeing anchored warp bubbles on dscan, def wouldnt be good to get decloaked and killed by a pos at the moment
we know we are out gunned....asked and got told they aint rolling it either so now theirs 3 of us sitting here dicking around chatting with the .EOL guys...at least there was some content, if you can call chatting content. |
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
441
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 06:01:00 -
[1898] - Quote
Not that I'm advicating for mass based spawn, I'm still pretty neutral on it, we offered to do a joint roam with you guys and you declined. So its your fault for chatting content on not pew pew content.
Also that excuse for not scouting a hole properly is horrible. Stuff camping a wh and mobile bubbles on scan? You made it past our picket which means your home free to scout >.< Blue-Fire Best Fire |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 06:05:00 -
[1899] - Quote
and their ceo wonders why his corp is banned from our public |
Hatshepsut IV
Cascading Failure Un.Bound
248
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 06:16:00 -
[1900] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:Kirasten wrote:NPC alts posting in the wh forums all live in k-space. At least that's about how much value your posts have here.
Post on a main or be irrelevant. nope not always true. many of my NPC alts live at my POS with me to do PI in the WH.
Doesn't mean people have to post with them. You too can start failing today! Reddit-áad | Cascading Failure Public Channel | Aspiring Failure
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Kirasten
No Vacancies
55
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 07:05:00 -
[1901] - Quote
Finally, a keyboard.
Why is one of the best trolls I've ever done happen when my post wasn't trolling at all?
So far, Valenthe, you have accused me of being "naive and un-inventive". You asked for a moment of silence before you point and laugh.
Valenthe de Celine wrote:You are both naive and uninventive. Congratulations that you have just shared this with the Forums. Please, lets have a moment of silence before many of us point and laugh...
You talked down to me in a horribly exaggerated condescending tone.
Valenthe de Celine wrote: You see, a while back, the kind folks at CCP came out with these great lil' things called Mobile Despots.
You insinuated that I am a troll.
Valenthe de Celine wrote:So now that I should have eased some of your trollish brows that NPC corp characters can, and do, function in wormholes ...
And that was just your first reply.
You projected ideas onto me that I never said ...
Valenthe de Celine wrote: ... you referred to NPC corps with such disdain, I felt the overwhelming bias three threads over.
... somehow assuming that I have a problem with people who choose to play in NPC corporations. This is humorous to me because ...
Valenthe de Celine wrote: I'm not going to assume every NPC corp player is an alt because I know better ...
... Don't respond with dismissive insults, please. It diminishes us all.
... which I never did. However, you have made a whole lot of assumptions about me.
I have never, at any time, said anything dismissive or insulting about you or your NPC corp, or any other NPC corp for that matter. But as evidenced here, you have been nothing but dismissive and insulting to me.
I have tried to be patient, because I realize that the way I worded the original message had potential to be misunderstood. So let me try to clarify again.
Accountability.
I am a nublette, and I make mistakes. I can be misguided and sometimes just plain wrong. But you will never see a post written by me under any other toon but Kira. I WANT to be held accountable for my actions and the things I might say. So knowing that about me, how do you think I feel about people who deliberately hide their identities while broadcasting their opinions to the masses? Do they have any conviction at all about what they are saying? Do they even believe it themselves?
This has nothing to do with what corporation you are in, and everything to do with your willingness to stand by what you say. Even a k-space character posting here has more value than someone unwilling to stand by what they say.
My post was not directed at you, but at someone who made a post and followed it with:
"(this account obviously isn't in a wh corp, but my main is)"
He was probably telling the truth, but I will never know. He was unwilling to stand by his words, therefore his words are irrelevant.
If your main is in an NPC corp and post with that, great! I usually don't notice every NPC alt when I'm reading until I like something enough to want to give it a thumbs up. Then I see npc alt and think "never mind". Will I probably miss some npc mains like this? Yes. It's not worth my time to research whether you are a main or an alt. As OMEGA REDUX suggested, perhaps if they put something in their signature that declares the toon as a main, I might be less likely to pass on by.
But that is not the case with you after all, now is it? You actually ARE an npc alt, aren't you? Do you think any of the things you have said now hold any credibility whatsoever? It doesn't matter to me what your excuses are, or corp policies on visibility. You can follow your corp policies without using npc alts to post on the forums. NO ONE IS MAKING YOU POST ON THE FORUMS. That is your choice. And now that we all know you are in fact an ncp alt, we can go on ignoring you. Your words are irrelevant.
|
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
68
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 08:26:00 -
[1902] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this. I really hope it comes soon, every day, someones account runs out of time, and if they do not buy a plex or buy game time, then they won't be back even if it changes the next day. And each day someone gets closer to that time. Some i Know have a plex sitting in a station, their ships are being moved out leaving just a core in the pos hoping for reason to prevail, but counting down till the time comes if it doesn't, then they move the last ones out, and prepare to log out for the last time. Well Maybe they will come back in a year or two? One can hope there is a good reason by then. They hope so, but expect to be disappointed, but hoping to be surprised. I am not saying that everyone will leave, they will not, but even one player is a loss to eve, a loss to wormhole space, and a loss to us all. And we all know it will be more than just a few. These changes are always touted as a way to get more players to join EVE. Why are we getting changes that do nothing to encourage new players and only make us lose the ones we have? Is there a master plan that none of us see, where this is a good thing?
Wormhole assets moved out to a station? Check. Plex sitting in station on four accounts? Check. Waiting on them to expire? Check. POS core and last few ships ready to log off at the end of current game time? Check. Keeping an eye of CCP updates that might possibly make me start wormhole operations again? Check. Not holding my breath for any meaningful results from community concerns? Check. Several new players I got to start playing Eve who will not continue to do so? Check. Thinking we might come back in a year or two? Not bloody likely.
The wormhole life was one of the last few areas of Eve where a small corp could carve out a corner of space and through hard work and vigilance, keep that corner. It was already a lot of work for us. barely making it to the "worth it" level. The cumulative effect of the recent wormhole changes have dropped that to the "not worth it" level.
No you can't have my stuff.
|
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 09:29:00 -
[1903] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:stuff I understand that this is your main however to be fair 99% of the people who post stuff on the forums with a npc corp toon are not using their main...or even a char they logon to often, so when you post on your npc main it looks like you are using an alt as what you are doing is extremely rare. IMHO I suggest posting something to the effect this is your main in your forum sig to better explain that you are infact on your main and not an alt...even then expect to have to explain this every so often.
FYI, I also use an NPC corp main. I have two other "mains" that have slightly less SP than this toon, and they are in a corp that has a wormhole presence, but that corp also has a lot of highsec noobs that we are training/introducing to lower class wormholes and so, as a courtesy I don't post with those corp toons to reduce the likelihood of handing them a griefer wardec.
As for posting using a forum alt vs. posting on a WH corp main, FWIW (not much) as long as you have some interesting commentary to share about the mass/distance change I don't really care what avatar you use. But if you post ****, then expect to get called out for it. That is all.
Kirasten wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this. I think their response was pretty clear, personally.
Back on topic, at this point given the lack of response from Fozzie/CCP I've assumed the mass/spawn distance change was considered one of those "for the good of the game" changes that was put in against all the player feedback. An analogous situation would be if CCP were to propose a sledgehammer nerf to Ishtars or Sentry Drones. The tears would be unbelievable, but CCP puts the change in anyway "for the good of the game" etc. That's where I think we're at here.
The intended behavior change, along with the new uncrashable frigate holes and extra random holes was to:
1. Discourage "locking up" your w-space system for farming with relative security. 2. Discourage rage-rolling to find content, and instead encourage players to explore the additional naturally spawned chains instead. 3. To increase the risk of "doing things" in w-space generally.
The unintended content-killing side effects of this change in particular, and to a lesser extent the frig holes due to their mass regen, is what the vast majority of the wormhole community has a problem with. Also the removal of player control over their w-space environment and the further unbalancing of risk vs. reward for lower class holes.
At this point it comes down to the metrics. If the numbers show people moving out, more empty holes, less PvP activity, more POS spinning, lost subscriptions and less content generally, then the case for a rollback of the mass/spawn distance change (or an inversion of it to spice up the meta and make kiting/sniping doctrines feasible) becomes very difficult to continue ignoring.
And it would probably be useful to Fozzie/CCP to propose changes to replace mass/spawn distance to better achieve 1-3 without damaging or breaking the things we like about w-space. I've proposed repeatedly to just automatically spawn a static or a random hole to keep all w-space systems connected to somewhere in New Eden at all times in exchange for returning hole rolling mechanics to pre-Hyperion. Ideally the ease of rolling holes should be inverted to how it is now, C1's should be the easiest to roll and C6's somewhat harder or just the same as now. But anyhow, just ensuring all w-space systems are all connected to somewhere in New Eden in one form or another will add significant risk to w-space activities. At the same time, however, it would also improve the quality of life for people living in wormholes by potentially making it easier than pre-Hyperion to find content or control how your system is exposed to the outside.
Some minor details would need to be worked out such as some statics needing to be somewhat more random as to where they could be rolled to in order to "fit" the risk profile of the system to all the possible activities a corp might want to engage in from time to time. Something might need to be done about a corp critting all the holes and preventing a reasonably sized invading force from getting in. But these details could be worked out.
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OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 09:58:00 -
[1904] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:FYI, I also use an NPC corp main. I have two other "mains" that have slightly less SP than this toon, and they are in a corp that has a wormhole presence, but that corp also has a lot of highsec noobs that we are training/introducing to lower class wormholes and so, as a courtesy I don't post with those corp toons to reduce the likelihood of handing them a griefer wardec.
As for posting using a forum alt vs. posting on a WH corp main, FWIW (not much) as long as you have some interesting commentary to share about the mass/distance change I don't really care what avatar you use. But if you post ****, then expect to get called out for it. That is all. i have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so.Quote:Kirasten wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this. I think their response was pretty clear, personally. Back on topic, at this point given the lack of response from Fozzie/CCP I've assumed the mass/spawn distance change was considered one of those "for the good of the game" changes that was put in against all the player feedback. An analogous situation would be if CCP were to propose a sledgehammer nerf to Ishtars or Sentry Drones. The tears would be unbelievable, but CCP puts the change in anyway "for the good of the game" etc. That's where I think we're at here. The intended behavior change, along with the new uncrashable frigate holes and extra random holes was to: 1. Discourage "locking up" your w-space system for farming with relative security. 2. Discourage rage-rolling to find content, and instead encourage players to explore the additional naturally spawned chains instead. 3. To increase the risk of "doing things" in w-space generally. i want your inside scoop on how you KNOW the reasons behind the changes since no dev has actually stated those reasons. also you do realize ishtars/drones are only recently the "thing to do" right? you also do realize there are a hundred different options other than ishtars/drones right? what was it you said about posting **** and getting called out on it? ya we keep getting **** like this from npc chars hence the reason why people tell them to post on the main or gtfo. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
177
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 10:00:00 -
[1905] - Quote
Kirasten wrote: NO ONE IS MAKING YOU POST ON THE FORUMS.
Yes, actually, someone is.
CCP Fozzie and his development team are the entire reason I posted in the EVE forums. I have not posted before this Charlie Foxtrox expansion, and I will likely not post again once it's been repealed or I've left the game for good. Well, until the next grand debacle gets announced.
The discovery of the mass based jump changes on SiSi before the Dev Blog relating to them was created demanded my attention on these forums as no other change to the game had in the past. I decided to break my policy of silence about their design choices because CCP Fozzie asked us, the W-space community, for our input on their changes. Well, I guess it is true he never said anything about reading what feedback we gave, or listening to us, or (heaven forbid) actually following any of the suggestions for how this one change could have been made tolerable.
So I am still here, posting away, voicing my disapproval about the Devs ignoring the players for the sake of some unknown, unidentified agenda that apparently they refuse to discuss, either here or on live interviews. I am paying very close attention to the lack or responses, and the fact our feedback is being ignored. All the while, W-space sees the greatest mass exodus I've ever heard of from an entire sector of the game. Hey, CCP guys, can you share any metrics with us about whats going on in WH space? None of our API data is shown to players anymore... |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
69
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 10:07:00 -
[1906] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote: I have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so.
I'm saying so.
OMEGA REDUX wrote:Arya Regnar wrote: Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this. i want your inside scoop on how you KNOW the reasons behind the changes since no dev has actually stated those reasons. also you do realize ishtars/drones are only recently the "thing to do" right? you also do realize there are a hundred different options other than ishtars/drones right? what was it you said about posting **** and getting called out on it? ya we keep getting **** like this from npc chars hence the reason why people tell them to post on the main or gtfo.
Listen to the wormhole townhall and podcasts with CCP Fozzie discussing the wormhole changes. That is the impression that I got. You may get a different impression, but what I posted is the impression I got.
The Ishtar/Sentry Drone analogy was only given to communicate by analogy the CCP/player base dynamic I believe we're in the middle of currently. Its rather pointless for you to run with it. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
177
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 10:18:00 -
[1907] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote: i have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so.
Actually, this "feature" was discussed around year ago on these very forums. At a bit of length, IIRC.
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Kirasten
No Vacancies
56
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:13:00 -
[1908] - Quote
I personally think it's hilarious when people war dec a wormhole corporation. Umm .. ok, sure. I care. I really do. |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:15:00 -
[1909] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote: i have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so.
Actually, this "feature" was discussed around year ago on these very forums. At a bit of length, IIRC.
The recruiting sub-forum especially is commonly used by "griefer" corps fishing for one-sided wardecs. But yeah this is the wrong thread for this discussion...
Kirasten wrote:I personally think it's hilarious when people war dec a wormhole corporation. Umm .. ok, sure. I care. I really do.
Not every corp/alliance is "wormhole only". |
Jez Amatin
Enso Corp
9
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:16:00 -
[1910] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote: i have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so.
Actually, this "feature" was discussed around year ago on these very forums. At a bit of length, IIRC.
seriously who cares, wardecs are useless if you're in either a WH corp (or even a null corp tbh)... i'd prefer whatever is left of this thread to actually be relevant to thread title. thx |
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Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:17:00 -
[1911] - Quote
Jez Amatin wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote: i have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so.
Actually, this "feature" was discussed around year ago on these very forums. At a bit of length, IIRC. seriously who cares, wardecs are useless if you're in either a WH corp (or even a null corp tbh)... i'd prefer whatever is left of this thread to actually be relevant to thread title. thx
^^ see above. Null-only included. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
56
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:27:00 -
[1912] - Quote
Jez Amatin wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote: i have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so.
Actually, this "feature" was discussed around year ago on these very forums. At a bit of length, IIRC. seriously who cares, wardecs are useless if you're in either a WH corp (or even a null corp tbh)... i'd prefer whatever is left of this thread to actually be relevant to thread title. thx
This thread isn't relevant anymore, no matter what we talk about. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:35:00 -
[1913] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote: I have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so. I'm saying so. OMEGA REDUX wrote:Arya Regnar wrote: Still waiting for a proper CCP response to this. i want your inside scoop on how you KNOW the reasons behind the changes since no dev has actually stated those reasons. also you do realize ishtars/drones are only recently the "thing to do" right? you also do realize there are a hundred different options other than ishtars/drones right? what was it you said about posting **** and getting called out on it? ya we keep getting **** like this from npc chars hence the reason why people tell them to post on the main or gtfo. Listen to the wormhole townhall and podcasts with CCP Fozzie discussing the wormhole changes. That is the impression that I got. You may get a different impression, but what I posted is the impression I got. The Ishtar/Sentry Drone analogy was only given to communicate by analogy the CCP/player base dynamic I believe we're in the middle of currently. Its rather pointless for you to run with it. I was at the townhall and he did not once give a single reason for the mass spawn change. an analogy is supposed to actually be similar and ishtar/drones are not even remotely similar in any fashion. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 11:37:00 -
[1914] - Quote
Maduin Shi wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote: i have quite literally never heard of someone getting a griefer wardec because they posted with a certain char on the forums and think that's a BS reason...but if you say so.
Actually, this "feature" was discussed around year ago on these very forums. At a bit of length, IIRC. The recruiting sub-forum especially is commonly used by "griefer" corps fishing for one-sided wardecs. But yeah this is the wrong thread for this discussion... oh we are in the recruitment thread? oh wait we aren't huh and we are worried about **** that happens there why again? |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
558
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 12:26:00 -
[1915] - Quote
Aquila Sagitta wrote:Not that I'm advicating for mass based spawn, I'm still pretty neutral on it, we offered to do a joint roam with you guys and you declined. So its your fault for chatting content on not pew pew content.
Also that excuse for not scouting a hole properly is horrible. Stuff camping a wh and mobile bubbles on scan? You made it past our picket which means your home free to scout >.< One of your guys helped me with the Jita protest thing so I'd hardly say .EOL is advocating new changes.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Winthorp
2660
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 12:40:00 -
[1916] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote:
No you can't have my stuff.
I already have your stuff, one less of you whiney carebears gone just put up my MNR stockpile. |
Winthorp
2660
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 12:43:00 -
[1917] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:, and I will likely not post again once it's been repealed or I've left the game for good.
The latter will be the end result as CCP have made the changes to this expansion they are willing to make, but please cry some more we are almost at 100 pages.
I don't know how the NPC corp will cope without your diligent work however... |
Maduin Shi
Perkone Caldari State
70
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 12:49:00 -
[1918] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote: I was at the townhall and he did not once give a single reason for the mass spawn change. an analogy is supposed to actually be similar and ishtar/drones are not even remotely similar in any fashion.
I said the town hall -and- the podcasts where he appeared as a guest and discussed the wormhole changes taken together. I'm done responding to your troll posts. I offered my comments, they were on-topic. I'm not interested in how you feel about other subjects, nor am I going to further waste my time on it.
Kirasten wrote: This thread isn't relevant anymore, no matter what we talk about.
Yep only the numbers matter now, for better or worse. I'll be curious to see if CCP will even go public with them when we get there. |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
42
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 14:18:00 -
[1919] - Quote
i Find it amusing ppl post with there alts. If u have a opinion say it. Do not hide behind a alt.
Also lets keep this post on track which is the decline of w space...
To address all the null bears posting Wait till they change your null then we can point at your cry's in the Forums and sit back and say about Time
Hey ccp Change For the Sake of Change is bad. As i said to Fozzie most of the ideas we can live with but the wh mass thing is bad. Just think about jumping or titen bridging in Null and spawning up to 20 k from said cyno.
Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 Space Please
|
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
824
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 14:34:00 -
[1920] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:I was at the townhall and he did not once give a single reason for the mass spawn change. Actually, he did. He said they spotted it on the forums in a "we want your little things" thread (blame Chitsa for that, the original idea was his) and then it was something that was pushed forward by last years CSM (suprise suprise, Chitsa again, who has ****** off to be a scrub in lowsec). So basically what Fozzie said was: "We read it, thought it was an awesome idea and then implemented it because we can". Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
|
Moloney
Mass Effect Enterprises
98
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 15:45:00 -
[1921] - Quote
Got to keep saying it:
ROLL BACK THE WORMHOLE MASS SPAWN DISTANCE.
ROLL BACK THE ADDITION OF FRIGATE SIZED WORMHOLES.
ROLL BACK YHE INCREASED WORMHOLE SPAWNS MECHANIC.
LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS.
FIRE CCP FOZZIE. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2174
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 16:46:00 -
[1922] - Quote
Moloney wrote:Got to keep saying it:
ROLL BACK THE WORMHOLE MASS SPAWN DISTANCE.
ROLL BACK THE ADDITION OF FRIGATE SIZED WORMHOLES.
ROLL BACK YHE INCREASED WORMHOLE SPAWNS MECHANIC.
LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS.
FIRE CCP FOZZIE.
Fozzie just grows in power from all you tears. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
57
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 17:19:00 -
[1923] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Moloney wrote:Got to keep saying it:
ROLL BACK THE WORMHOLE MASS SPAWN DISTANCE.
ROLL BACK THE ADDITION OF FRIGATE SIZED WORMHOLES.
ROLL BACK YHE INCREASED WORMHOLE SPAWNS MECHANIC.
LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS.
FIRE CCP FOZZIE. Fozzie just grows in power from all you tears. Shoo shoo worm |
Moloney
Mass Effect Enterprises
103
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 17:29:00 -
[1924] - Quote
I guess that's the end of that then.
Two people have decided to bend over and take it....
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 19:48:00 -
[1925] - Quote
Seraph Essael wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote:I was at the townhall and he did not once give a single reason for the mass spawn change. Actually, he did. He said they spotted it on the forums in a "we want your little things" thread (blame Chitsa for that, the original idea was his) and then it was something that was pushed forward by last years CSM (suprise suprise, Chitsa again, who has ****** off to be a scrub in lowsec). So basically what Fozzie said was: "We read it, thought it was an awesome idea and then implemented it because we can". go back and actually listen to the townhall as that is in fact not what he said. |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
824
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 22:03:00 -
[1926] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:Seraph Essael wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote:I was at the townhall and he did not once give a single reason for the mass spawn change. Actually, he did. He said they spotted it on the forums in a "we want your little things" thread (blame Chitsa for that, the original idea was his) and then it was something that was pushed forward by last years CSM (suprise suprise, Chitsa again, who has ****** off to be a scrub in lowsec). So basically what Fozzie said was: "We read it, thought it was an awesome idea and then implemented it because we can". go back and actually listen to the townhall as that is in fact not what he said. 24minutes 28seconds in.
"The original idea was one that came up in a wormhole feedback thread and was discussed internally with the last CSM..."
While he doesn't say Chitsa pushed for it, we have been told repeatedly that this was an idea that he majorly loved. Seeing as though he was on the last CSM, you can assume that he did indeed push forward an idea that he liked and wanted to happen... Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 22:24:00 -
[1927] - Quote
Wow. More than half that last page was folks trolling each other instead of staying on point about the issue this thread is for. Shame on us.
I'm out of caring to get the trolls to STFU and get on topic. Trolls will be trolls, and I'm beyond arguing at them now.
The massive betrayal was felt by all of W-space when the changes to SiSi went live without a word of them being mentioned on the forums. All of a sudden jumping a capital put you 20km off a hole. Has that been dropped some? Yeah, maybe a little. I don't know, my corp hasn't dropped a cap through a wormhole since these changes went live. Most of them are still in shock at the massive changes which took place after we ran sites on Monday.
I'm not sure CCP could comprehend the analogy I want to use for how the community has been affected. But many stories of previous real life wars had similar beginnings. Pearl Harbor being attacked was one of the significant examples. The Japanese Navy and government at that time screwed up. What should have been an extremely well coordinated declaration of war followed by a swift and decisive attack at the US Pacific Fleet staging area would have been a great victory for the Japanese. Only catch, they screwed up on the sequence. The data to declare war didn't arrive before the bombs started dropping. The US felt betrayed horribly, and went into war against Japan with a massive effort to see them pay dearly for the despicable and cowardly attack.
Betrayal stings hardest when you thought you could trust someone. CCP has gotten our hopes up many times in the past. They have even listened to the community about changes they wanted to make, and tempered the actual changes with what feedback was given. In this case, with the mass-based spawn distance changes, CCP has betrayed it's community. You initiated changes without asking us, you pushed them through without reading our feedback or getting any support from the majority of the community.
Your customer relations efforts have failed. W-space satisfaction is at an all time low. People are abandoning their homes in W-space and moving to other areas of the game. If this persists corps that decide to stay may survive, but many are going to fail over the disconnect between what was W-space, and what is now a much more hostile environment. I wonder, can your metrics tell us how many POS towers were abandoned or unanchored over the past 10 days? (The writing was on the wall for anyone who read the forums, so many corps were leaving before changes went live.) |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
179
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 22:40:00 -
[1928] - Quote
Moloney wrote:Got to keep saying it:
ROLL BACK THE WORMHOLE MASS SPAWN DISTANCE.
ROLL BACK THE ADDITION OF FRIGATE SIZED WORMHOLES.
ROLL BACK YHE INCREASED WORMHOLE SPAWNS MECHANIC.
LISTEN TO YOUR CUSTOMERS.
FIRE CCP FOZZIE. Stop with the personal attacks on CCP Fozzie. Just because he failed at his job for this one incident (in my recollection, anyhow) that's not a reason to throw a long time employee under the bus and demand he be fired. CCP Fozzie is a face we can relate to, and that's a testament to his contact with the EVE community. If you want a company that can learn from their mistakes and grow out of ignoring us, the players, you cant just keep screaming at them. Forgive. But I still want to know we're being heard.
I agree on the rolling back of changes on the mass-based spawn distance. This, with everything else, broke W-space.
The frigate only-WHs are strange, but not useless. Honestly, they will give a much greater access via a less dangerous route (for the others in the WH chain) because they allow scouts to probe all over without having to fear a fleet off T3s following them. Sure, it's not much of a niche for those WHs, but isn't exploration what W-space is supposed to be about? Now I have a lot more curiosity about what I'll find through that WH than I used to, as I could find a dead POS with 20 ships around it, or a dead POS with intact hangar array and ship maintenance array. I can then probe out an exit, holepully to K-space, where I can relieve said POS of some of the items held within. After the spawn rate was reduced, the levels are even tolerable.
In case you were not paying attention, the increased WH spawn mechanic was also partially rolled back. Having connections isn't the issue. It's being able to deal with them without going crazy from boredom. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
434
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 23:05:00 -
[1929] - Quote
lmbo |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
790
|
Posted - 2014.08.30 23:25:00 -
[1930] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:All of a sudden jumping a capital put you 20km off a hole. Has that been dropped some? Yeah, maybe a little. I don't know, my corp hasn't dropped a cap through a wormhole since these changes went live. Most of them are still in shock at the massive changes which took place after we ran sites on Monday.
I'm quite surprised (probably shouldn't be) at the number of people who this took by surprise - seen quite a few people commenting on being caught out by the change in game including people I thought were on top of the coming changes.
|
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1170
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:09:00 -
[1931] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone! This thread is for all of your feedback and discussion surrounding the changes to wormhole jump spawn distance that we proposed in our recently released dev blog. I want to remind people that the best way to have your views heard is to state your case calmly, politely and with logical reasoning. Whether you like this idea or don't like this idea, make sure to let us know exactly why you hold your opinion, with as much detail as possible. :Edit: Update on August 16th: Hey everyone. I want to thank you for all the reasoned feedback posted here, in your third party blogs, and passed along to the CSM.
We've made some changes to the plan and updated the dev blog with the new version (It may take a few minutes to apply).
The goal with this set of tweaks is to make the time required to return to the wormhole (or to get within refit range of your friends) for average jumps shorter, while keeping a significant element of risk. To reach these goals, we're pulling the base spawn distance for large ships in significantly, to below 14km. At the same time we'll be adding a new mechanic that modulates the randomness of your jump based on how close a wormhole is to collapse. For a fresh wormhole with none of its mass limit used, the deviation from the base distance will be a maximum of 2km. For a jump that collapses the wormhole, the maximum deviation (which can send you even closer to the wormhole or farther away) will be a maximum of 5km.
This brings the average jump distance down significantly while preventing complete safety and giving players a new element to consider in their strategic decision making.
GÇ£Problems cannot be solved at the same level of awareness that created them" GÇöEinsteinGÇ¥
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:13:00 -
[1932] - Quote
Oh. My. Goodness.
I'm a wormholer, I don't like the WH jump distance change - in particular, I don't like the way it's been implemented.
But as a gaming community we need to step back and ask is it really worth comparing CCP to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, or ****** as he launched Barbarossa? As far as I can tell, nobody's died... sometimes the EVE community sickens me.
-1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1170
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:21:00 -
[1933] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Oh. My. Goodness.
I'm a wormholer, I don't like the WH jump distance change - in particular, I don't like the way it's been implemented.
But as a gaming community we need to step back and ask is it really worth comparing CCP to the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour, or ****** as he launched Barbarossa? As far as I can tell, nobody's died... sometimes the EVE community sickens me.
-1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
I think it is more someone making a clear example of how the unintended instillation of the feeling of betrayal has unintended and significant consequences.
She/he is quite right.
Many people do feel a significant lavel of betrayal.
This may be wrong or unbalanced, but to them, it is real. It is CCP's job as a buisness not only to deal with the serious side effects introduced with this release, and now they also have to handle a PR disaster that is actually, for those affected greater than incarna.
Now wormholers are a different demographic, we do not scream, wail, and beat our chests.
It is MUCH more frightening for a business than that.
One simply ceases contact with those who wish to obtain payment for a service, and refuse to discuss and rectify problems.
Simple.
My fear is that CCP are so used to the screaming, they will not act until it is too late.
Then all they will say is "but where did they go?" There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
559
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:25:00 -
[1934] - Quote
I just got told that a GM said in Jita local that placing depots is not the right form of protest and that we are supposed to post about it on forums.
THE AUDACITY
They dare tell us to go post on forums after they blatantly disregard 100 pages of posts that clearly state every reason in existence why this is bad.
I am out of words.
At this point I might really do something stupid.
What the bloody hell are you guys planning to do with this game?
Sell to EA?
YOU MIGHT AS WELL.
PS: Inb4 this post gets deleted. That would be ironic on so many levels.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1170
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:29:00 -
[1935] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:I just got told that a G.? said in Jita local that placing depots is not the right form of protest and that we are supposed to post about it on forums.
THE AUDACITY
They dare tell us to go post on forums after they blatantly disregard 100 pages of posts that clearly state every reason in existence why this is bad.
I am out of words.
At this point I might really do something stupid.
What the bloody hell are you guys planning to do with this game?
Sell to EA?
YOU MIGHT AS WELL.
PS: Inb4 this post gets deleted. That would be ironic on so many levels.
I hope your post does not, just amend that two letter word to remove the excuse. At least your protest gained some visibility, it was an excellent idea. If I had a facebook account I might have spammed the twitch stream of the alliance fights, but alas I do not.
Their first step in solving a problem is to admit there is one. The denial is strong with this one.................... There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
559
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:32:00 -
[1936] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: I hope your post does not, just amend that two letter word to remove the excuse. At least your protest gained some visibility, it was an excellent idea. If I had a facebook account I might have spammed the twitch stream of the alliance fights, but alas I do not.
This is wrong on so many levels man. I have never been so angry at CCP. If there was a game like this except with good devs I'd be gone in half a second.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Timm3h
Tengoo Uninstallation Service
13
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:33:00 -
[1937] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Aquila Sagitta wrote:Not that I'm advicating for mass based spawn, I'm still pretty neutral on it, we offered to do a joint roam with you guys and you declined. So its your fault for chatting content on not pew pew content.
Also that excuse for not scouting a hole properly is horrible. Stuff camping a wh and mobile bubbles on scan? You made it past our picket which means your home free to scout >.< One of your guys helped me with the Jita protest thing so I'd hardly say .EOL is advocating new changes.
To make a quick amend here: my words are my own, based upon my own experiences and supported by my friends who have also enjoyed their Pre-Hyperion lives as small group corporations living in low class wormholes.
I would say that (and I mean this without offense, as I enjoy the people and content Blue-Fire has to offer) Blue-Fire has the capacity to remain neutral on the subject of mass-based spawn because they are able to field a reasonable active member pool. Most wormhole corporations can not do this, essentially stranding them in their force fields until a hostile hole with a reasonable force near it collapses naturally or is rolled by a larger entity.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1170
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:39:00 -
[1938] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: I hope your post does not, just amend that two letter word to remove the excuse. At least your protest gained some visibility, it was an excellent idea. If I had a facebook account I might have spammed the twitch stream of the alliance fights, but alas I do not.
This is wrong on so many levels man. I have never been so angry at CCP. If there was a game like this except with good devs I'd be gone in half a second.
I am sure that every day they thank the Icelandic gods there is not.
However, the Devs, do their best, they do care, but everyone makes a bad call sometimes. They for whatever reason did handle this in an appalling manner, I personally believe that they are following orders. That is unfortunately never a good excuse for not correcting things that are a serious issue.
Hopefully the person giving those orders will have realised how phenomilally self destructive the mass spawn luck mechanic is. And how hated the entire concept is, and how players are being forced to decide whether they can continue to play the game at all if it has followed such a path.
If he has not, well, I hope he has the courage to explain the results of his decisions to Hilmar and the shareholders.
Hopefully however he will and issue the order untying the Devs hands.
And everyone benefits. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:43:00 -
[1939] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I think it is more someone making a clear example of how the unintended instillation of the feeling of betrayal has unintended and significant consequences.
She/he is quite right.
Many people do feel a significant lavel of betrayal.
This may be wrong or unbalanced, but to them, it is real. And THAT matters.
It is CCP's job as a business not only to deal with the serious side effects introduced with this release, and now they also have to handle a PR disaster that is actually, for those affected greater than incarna.
Now wormholers are a different demographic, we do not scream, wail, and beat our chests.
It is MUCH more frightening for a business than that.
One simply ceases contact with those who wish to obtain payment for a service, and refuse to discuss and rectify problems.
Simple.
My fear is that CCP are so used to the screaming, they will not act until it is too late.
And many who love the game, imperfect as it is, will be gone forever. A loss for all.
I have to disagree. The insertion of hyperbolic analogies to explain how you feel betrayed is immature. It suggests you have lost perspective, and the last thing a business wants to do is react to people who've lost perspective. Those who think the immature reaction - and at a high volume too - is going to affect change forget that the more hyperbole that's spat out, the more withdrawn and entrenched the other side will be come. It's entirely counter productive.
You say the Wormholer demographic is different, "we do not scream, wail, and beat our chests" - a fair portion of posts in this 90+ page thread prove otherwise. There's just not that much constructive comment, and what little there is has been drowned out by people making crass, and frankly, insulting analogies to real world events.
Stop justifying this nonsense. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1170
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:45:00 -
[1940] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
I think it is more someone making a clear example of how the unintended instillation of the feeling of betrayal has unintended and significant consequences.
She/he is quite right.
Many people do feel a significant lavel of betrayal.
This may be wrong or unbalanced, but to them, it is real. And THAT matters.
It is CCP's job as a business not only to deal with the serious side effects introduced with this release, and now they also have to handle a PR disaster that is actually, for those affected greater than incarna.
Now wormholers are a different demographic, we do not scream, wail, and beat our chests.
It is MUCH more frightening for a business than that.
One simply ceases contact with those who wish to obtain payment for a service, and refuse to discuss and rectify problems.
Simple.
My fear is that CCP are so used to the screaming, they will not act until it is too late.
And many who love the game, imperfect as it is, will be gone forever. A loss for all.
I have to disagree. The insertion of hyperbolic analogies to explain how you feel betrayed is immature. It suggests you have lost perspective, and the last thing a business wants to do is react to people who've lost perspective. Those who think the immature reaction - and at a high volume too - is going to affect change forget that the more hyperbole that's spat out, the more withdrawn and entrenched the other side will be come. It's entirely counter productive. You say the Wormholer demographic is different, "we do not scream, wail, and beat our chests" - a fair portion of posts in this 90+ page thread prove otherwise. There's just not that much constructive comment, and what little there is has been drowned out by people making crass, and frankly, insulting analogies to real world events. Stop justifying this nonsense.
You fail to understand.
Customers do not have to explain themselves to their suppliers.
CCP should be grateful to be given the chance to correct their errors.
Very few businesses get that opportunity. None would complain about the quality of their customers. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:51:00 -
[1941] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
You fail to understand.
Customers do not have to explain themselves to their suppliers.
CCP should be grateful to be given the chance to correct their errors.
Very few businesses get that opportunity. None would complain about the quality of their customers.
I think you need to graduate high school, or at least learn to read and understand what people are saying.
I've no problem with customers making complaints. But I have a huge problem with customers taking to a public forum and denigrating the sacrifice of real world war veterans to explain their feelings of betrayal. I find that sickening. Plus it does nothing to help CCP hear their customers' complaint.
Stop justifying this nonsense. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1170
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:51:00 -
[1942] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
You fail to understand.
Customers do not have to explain themselves to their suppliers.
CCP should be grateful to be given the chance to correct their errors.
Very few businesses get that opportunity. None would complain about the quality of their customers.
I think you need to graduate high school, or at least learn to read and understand what people are saying. I've no problem with customers making complaints. But I have a huge problem with customers taking to a public forum and denigrating the sacrifice of real world war veterans to explain their feelings of betrayal. I find that sickening. Plus it does nothing to help CCP hear their customers' complaint. Ok I thought it was a troll. Reported. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:53:00 -
[1943] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Ok I thought it was a troll. Reported.
That's exactly the level of maturity I was talking about... and loss of perspective... you're doing a great job of making my point for me.
/Thanks. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1170
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:54:00 -
[1944] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: Ok I thought it was a troll. Reported.
That's exactly the level of maturity I was talking about... and loss of perspective... you're doing a great job of making my point for me. /Thanks. Reported There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:55:00 -
[1945] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Reported
Reported. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
559
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 00:59:00 -
[1946] - Quote
Please stop, this just makes us lose credibility.
Although at this point it probably doesn't matter CCP don't give two ***** about their players.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 01:06:00 -
[1947] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Please stop, this just makes us lose credibility.
Although at this point it probably doesn't matter CCP don't give two ***** about their players.
I suspect the credibility was lost long, long ago.
Which is my point. This thread's well past the point of being lost in the butt hole of it's own irony, when players need to tell CCP they feel as betrayed as the US did after Pearl. FFS, could we do a better job of looking like a bunch of babies throwing our toys out the pram?
Not to mention, the lack of respect.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1170
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 01:10:00 -
[1948] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Please stop, this just makes us lose credibility.
Although at this point it probably doesn't matter CCP don't give two ***** about their players.
I hope you are wrong, CCP like any company sometimes make mistakes, and If a manager has forced the developers to implement this They naturally are one more step removed from the game itself.
Wormhole space is sufficiently different, with such fragile, but working mechanics (pre hyperion) it may be hard for someone to understand how such a seemingly small change could have such a large effect.
Well the impact for those who live in wormhole space is bigger than incarna, we do not give a damn when you can buy gold plated codpieces, we do not care whether somer blink gives the devs ferraris (they wish)
We do not care about any of that.
But when they break the game so thoroughly for us, and make Luck the deciding factor of whether we live or die, and ignore all we say because they are not allowed to listen, as they are only following orders, then we are not happy at all.
As I said before, if this was anywhere else but wormholes, the machine would start, there would be press "leaks" there would be articles ripping it to shreds on the mittani and eve news 24, blogs would be "encouraged" to put the view, that would make CCP appear like atilla the hun.
We though are wormholers, once we have realised that Luck is the one thing that cannot be adapted to other than avoiding where it applies, then it is all over.
We will not rage. We will not scream We will not forget. We simply will not be interested any more.
We will simply remember who is the customer and who is the supplier.
That is not a comfortable thing to force your customers to remember.
It NEVER ends well. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 01:18:00 -
[1949] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: that would make CCP appear like atilla the hun.
We though are wormholers, once we have realised that Luck is the one thing that cannot be adapted to other than avoiding where it applies, then it is all over.
We will not rage. We will not scream We will not forget.
We will simply remember who is the customer and who is the supplier.
That is not a comfortable thing to force your customers to remember.
Oh. My. Goodness. Again.
CCP would look like Atilla the Hun? Have they charged across the steppe and massacred entire civilizations? It's this sort of nonsense that loses you the fight.
And would you please park the empty rhetoric. If you're going to "simply remember who is the customer and who is the supplier" would you just quit your account, recycle your biomass,and be done with it. (Can I have your stuff?)
You've said nothing constructive in your last 10 posts - like most of this thread.
Pointless nerdrage is pointless.
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
561
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 01:20:00 -
[1950] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Arya Regnar wrote:Please stop, this just makes us lose credibility.
Although at this point it probably doesn't matter CCP don't give two ***** about their players. I suspect the credibility was lost long, long ago. Which is my point. This thread's well past the point of being lost in the butt hole of it's own irony, when players need to tell CCP they feel as betrayed as the US did after Pearl. FFS, could we do a better job of looking like a bunch of babies throwing our toys out the pram? Not to mention, the lack of respect. By that I mean please stop trolling as you obviously have an agenda that benefits from these changes staying. Good for you but I'd like wormholes not dead.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
|
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 01:22:00 -
[1951] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:By that I mean please stop trolling as you obviously have an agenda that benefits from these changes staying. Good for you but I'd like wormholes not dead.
No I don't.
JTK Fotheringham wrote: -1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
But I do have a huge problem with idiotic comments that are only going to drive CCP Devs deeper into the bunker of denial.
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
791
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 01:43:00 -
[1952] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote: But I do have a huge problem with idiotic comments that are only going to drive CCP Devs deeper into the bunker of denial.
Edit: You're the second person to accuse me of trolling. I think the WH community is poorly served by mouth pieces - like yourself and epicurus ataraxia - who feel they need ad hom attacks to silence slightly dissonant voices. Disappointed.
While I agree with your viewpoint I can quite understand the disappointment that has resulted to some people resorting to it, I've had to go back and edit a few of my posts several times before hitting post. I like a lot of the work Fozzie does but I just can't understand this one, the reasoning behind it is completely lost to me and I don't understand why this thread has turned out the way it has even before anyone resorted to less than polite/less than constructive posting. |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 01:46:00 -
[1953] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: We wish to discuss the mass spawn jump "luck mechanic" and it's effect on the game, your personal attacks and selective quoting are purely disruptive, an attempt to derail the forum into chaos, and not welcome.
Stealth edit is stealthy. You might win a coconut for trying to make yourself look smarter than you are.
I've made a suggestion about fixing the "luck" mechanic - something I've not seen you do... just more words about how upset you are that CCP have stolen your sweeties, and run roughshod over Chinese and Islamic culture in the dark ages (that's a reference to your silly comment about CCP looking like Atilla the Hun).
JTK Fotheringham wrote: -1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
And as for personal attacks, you're the one who resorted to the ad hom first... "Troll". Well done.
|
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
72
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 01:54:00 -
[1954] - Quote
Rroff wrote:
While I agree with your viewpoint I can quite understand the disappointment that has resulted to some people resorting to it, I've had to go back and edit a few of my posts several times before hitting post. I like a lot of the work Fozzie does but I just can't understand this one, the reasoning behind it is completely lost to me and I don't understand why this thread has turned out the way it has even before anyone resorted to less than polite/less than constructive posting.
Thanks for taking the time to try to see where I'm coming from.
I do understand why so many WHers are disappointed... a lot of my own corp are too. I am myself.
But i'm long enough in the toof to understand how the Dev-Player dynamic works in EVE. Threadnaughts aren't effective ways of bringing change - especially not emotionally charged posts like so many in this thread. Subs count more - that's why the post-Incarna changes happened.
Disentangling the emotion, from the reality, we've seen that CCP haven't listened to player feedback to Sisi tests of major features - like the industry screen. I'm just not surprised with the way things have worked out on this expansion - and therefore i'm maybe less inclined to the nerdrage, let alone the badly articulated nerdrage we're seeing in this thread.
We need a constructive response, which some are arguing for. But when prominent WH advocates who normally do a great job jump on the emotional bandwagon, we all lose out.
Thanks again. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 02:18:00 -
[1955] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Rroff wrote:
While I agree with your viewpoint I can quite understand the disappointment that has resulted to some people resorting to it, I've had to go back and edit a few of my posts several times before hitting post. I like a lot of the work Fozzie does but I just can't understand this one, the reasoning behind it is completely lost to me and I don't understand why this thread has turned out the way it has even before anyone resorted to less than polite/less than constructive posting.
Thanks for taking the time to try to see where I'm coming from. I do understand why so many WHers are disappointed... a lot of my own corp are too. I am myself. But i'm long enough in the toof to understand how the Dev-Player dynamic works in EVE. Threadnaughts aren't effective ways of bringing change - especially not emotionally charged posts like so many in this thread. Subs count more - that's why the post-Incarna changes happened. Disentangling the emotion, from the reality, we've seen that CCP haven't listened to player feedback to Sisi tests of major features - like the industry screen. I'm just not surprised with the way things have worked out on this expansion - and therefore i'm maybe less inclined to the nerdrage, let alone the badly articulated nerdrage we're seeing in this thread. We need a constructive response, which some are arguing for. But when prominent WH advocates who normally do a great job jump on the emotional bandwagon, we all lose out. Thanks again.
I know this thread has de-evolved into something to be ashamed of, but does anyone really think CCP is monitoring this anymore? I certainly don't. When this threadnaught was still in it's infancy, many people gave well thought out and articulate responses. While there were a lot of emotional responses as well, CCP had the responses they we thought they were asking for. Then it appeared that they either ignored them or disagreed and moved forward anyway. This is why i think the responses have gotten much more emotional, and why people are using the word, "betrayed".
They feel betrayed because they had the wrong premise. They felt, myself included, that CCP was interested in whether we liked the change or if there were ways that we could see a version of the change that we would accept. Now I see much more clearly that what they really were asking for were the ways in which the change might break mechanics they were interested in, not us. An example of this would be how it was pointed out that if a K162 only spawned when someone jumped through it, then our connections would be far less as people chose not to jump through. We gave feedback, they saw the error of their implementation and adjusted. They were NEVER thinking about scrapping the mass jump distance. They just wanted to know if it would break anymore of their plans at creating more connectivity and risk. |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
81
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 02:25:00 -
[1956] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:
I know this thread has de-evolved into something to be ashamed of, but does anyone really think CCP is monitoring this anymore? I certainly don't. When this threadnaught was still in it's infancy, many people gave well thought out and articulate responses. While there were a lot of emotional responses as well, CCP had the responses they we thought they were asking for. Then it appeared that they either ignored them or disagreed and moved forward anyway. This is why i think the responses have gotten much more emotional, and why people are using the word, "betrayed".
They feel betrayed because they had the wrong premise. They felt, myself included, that CCP was interested in whether we liked the change or if there were ways that we could see a version of the change that we would accept. Now I see much more clearly that what they really were asking for were the ways in which the change might break mechanics they were interested in, not us. An example of this would be how it was pointed out that if a K162 only spawned when someone jumped through it, then our connections would be far less as people chose not to jump through. We gave feedback, they saw the error of their implementation and adjusted. They were NEVER thinking about scrapping the mass jump distance. They just wanted to know if it would break anymore of their plans at creating more connectivity and risk.
+1 Spot on. I'm glad I'm not the only one seeing things this way.
It's like Government consultations - when you're working on a draft bill, you don't run a consultation to see if people like it, you run a consultation to see if anyone in the public can find a flaw you've missed.
I think a lot of the player base misunderstands that aspect of putting things on Sisi, and dev blogs. But equally, CCP have lately seemed slow to react to players pointing out genuine game problems with their new features. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2176
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 04:00:00 -
[1957] - Quote
Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.
Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long. ~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
42
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 04:32:00 -
[1958] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.
Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long.
Safe holes lol you have no idea what you are talking about null bear..Lets remove local From Null ..heck lets remove local from low sec as well..Safe holes..Get a clue. Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 Space Please
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
434
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 05:33:00 -
[1959] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:Sentamon wrote:Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.
Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long. Safe holes lol you have no idea what you are talking about null bear..Lets remove local From Null ..heck lets remove local from low sec as well..Safe holes..Get a clue. pretty sure that is an npc corp poster which is not known for its presence in nullsec |
Winthorp
2664
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 05:51:00 -
[1960] - Quote
Almost 100... |
|
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
443
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 05:52:00 -
[1961] - Quote
Just had an awesome fight with 1%
They're still possible! Blue-Fire Best Fire |
Asayanami Dei
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
688
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 06:12:00 -
[1962] - Quote
I vote we keep this change but remove local from the game too. I'm a leaf on the wind, watch how I-- THE CAPACITOR IS EMPTY Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/user/asayanami Twitter: https://twitter.com/Asayanami Twitch: http://www.twitch.tv/Asayanami
|
Jezza McWaffle
Pandora Sphere Disavowed.
146
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 07:44:00 -
[1963] - Quote
Had a pretty good example of why this change was **** last night.
We were rolling the hole and got jumped by NoHo and last a Moros, kinda sucked and I guess this is the point of the changes. But then it just lead to us having to POS spin and go play some other games, I know I played Metro for a good 2 hours following it since we didn't have a force that could compete with NoHo. In the end we got a small fleet online and used Battleships till Noho showed up again and crit the wormhole for us. I bet neither side was having much fun bar the Moros kill at their end. C6 Wormhole blog http://holelotofwaffle.wordpress.com/ |
Talaq
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 08:01:00 -
[1964] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:Gunner GzR wrote:Sentamon wrote:Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.
Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long. Safe holes lol you have no idea what you are talking about null bear..Lets remove local From Null ..heck lets remove local from low sec as well..Safe holes..Get a clue. pretty sure that is an npc corp poster which is not known for its presence in nullsec
Before we do yet another round of who has the biggest pedigree in W-space, lets just not.
People are pissed for the changes, not cause there is change (w-space needed some), its more that there was no constructive reason or thought behind them.
the changes should improve space with a plan behind it to make it at least so people would like to go there, instead of abandoning it.
holes got only safer due to the stupid scanner patch showing holes, making it harder to surprise people. now they make it harder to roll finding targets, and it makes farmers less secure, so they take even risk.
smaller corps leave, taking out people, and there are less people to shoot, which will just go on and on till there are to few people to sustain the situation as it was before.
instead of unwanted changes, where are the pos changes, something that for one would at least for smaller corps and beginning corps would make it more appealing to move in a wormhole.
the mass-bases spawn distance change CCP should at least have put on hold seeing this thread pre the patch. then again putting their head in the sand by not having a discussion after the patch, shows that CSM and forums really are there just to for show.
Low-Class Diplomat
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
566
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 08:17:00 -
[1965] - Quote
Talaq wrote: Before we do yet another round of who has the biggest pedigree in W-space, lets just not.
People are pissed for the changes, not cause there is change (w-space needed some), its more that there was no constructive reason or thought behind them.
the changes should improve space with a plan behind it to make it at least so people would like to go there, instead of abandoning it.
holes got only safer due to the stupid scanner patch showing holes, making it harder to surprise people. now they make it harder to roll finding targets, and it makes farmers less secure, so they take even risk.
smaller corps leave, taking out people, and there are less people to shoot, which will just go on and on till there are to few people to sustain the situation as it was before.
instead of unwanted changes, where are the pos changes, something that for one would at least for smaller corps and beginning corps would make it more appealing to move in a wormhole.
the mass-bases spawn distance change CCP should at least have put on hold seeing this thread pre the patch. then again putting their head in the sand by not having a discussion after the patch, shows that CSM and forums really are there just to for show.
Let's get back to the part when they tell protesters in Jita to go protest on forums after they ignore over 100 pages of combined posts (if you include thread they made for criticism and then deleted). This goes beyond caring. Were talking intentional lies and deception.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 08:47:00 -
[1966] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: You fail to understand.
Customers do not have to explain themselves to their suppliers.
CCP should be grateful to be given the chance to correct their errors.
Very few businesses get that opportunity. None would complain about the quality of their customers.
I think you need to learn to read and understand what people are saying. I've no problem with customers making complaints. But I have a huge problem with customers taking to a public forum and denigrating the sacrifice of real world war veterans to explain their feelings of betrayal. I find that sickening. Plus it does nothing to help CCP hear their customers' complaint. Stop justifying this nonsense. First of all I was making an analogy of the effect of poor planning causing a great sense of betrayal. The use of what happened with Pearl Harbor was to illustrate that timing is everything, and to screw up that timing creates miserable failures from what could have been awe inspiring success. If you can't distinguish between the situations being similar and some misconstrued outrage on your part being entirely of your own choosing, then words alone will never achieve anything with you.
Second, I would never denigrate the armed forces of my country or that of any other without very specific cause, and that hasn't happened here. The tragedy for the US military that was the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was one nation's military attacking another nation's military installation. This wasn't the slaughters we see in the news regularly of armed militia slaughtering civilians. Both sides believed they were in the right and were obeying instructions from their commanders. Both sides attempted to fight with honor in they ways they understood honor to exist. Both sides were soldiers in the profession of war. To believe that a soldier is not risking his life by putting on a uniform is naivete in the extreme.
Finally, stop arguing your opinion about my words at someone else. If you want to speak against what I said, say it to me, direct it at my posts, and I will remind you that this forum isn't about that one real life event, it's about discussion of the game we are playing using a similar historical reference in my case. Please take the history lesson in context. I could just as easily speak about an event in local corporate politics, but that carriers less understanding and, therefore, less weight. |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 09:00:00 -
[1967] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:[quote=JTK Fotheringham] First of all I was making an analogy of the effect of poor planning causing a great sense of betrayal. The use of what happened with Pearl Harbor was to illustrate that timing is everything, and to screw up that timing creates miserable failures from what could have been awe inspiring success. If you can't distinguish between the situations being similar and some misconstrued outrage on your part being entirely of your own choosing, then words alone will never achieve anything with you.
Second, I would never denigrate the armed forces of my country or that of any other without very specific cause, and that hasn't happened here. The tragedy for the US military that was the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor was one nation's military attacking another nation's military installation. This wasn't the slaughters we see in the news regularly of armed militia slaughtering civilians. Both sides believed they were in the right and were obeying instructions from their commanders. Both sides attempted to fight with honor in they ways they understood honor to exist. Both sides were soldiers in the profession of war. To believe that a soldier is not risking his life by putting on a uniform is naivete in the extreme.
Finally, stop arguing your opinion about my words at someone else. If you want to speak against what I said, say it to me, direct it at my posts, and I will remind you that this forum isn't about that one real life event, it's about discussion of the game we are playing using a similar historical reference in my case. Please take the history lesson in context. I could just as easily speak about an event in local corporate politics, but that carriers less understanding and, therefore, less weight.
1) You made a crass analogy.
2) Your crass analogy is denigrating to real world war vets.
3) I was making a general point, as you're not the only one behaving in this crass, and sadly immature manner.
4) Profit? |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
182
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 09:07:00 -
[1968] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote: Let's get back to the part when they tell protesters in Jita to go protest on forums after they ignore over 100 pages of combined posts (if you include thread they made for criticism and then deleted). This goes beyond caring. Were talking intentional lies and deception.
The correct action when confronted and asked to stop protesting in Jita is to demand they produce a reason why your in-game sandbox is being infringed upon by the game's support team. Your emergent gameplay was producing your desired effect, and you had several friends coming in to scout the camera locations for the AT next. Because generating emergent gameplay is fun, right? If EVE is really a sandbox, time to knock over some castles. |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 09:08:00 -
[1969] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote: If you can't say something pertinent to wormholes, this new mechanic, or the rest of our discussion about what these changes mean for us or our peers in the game, then please leave. Now. Go.
Your constant bemoaning our examples as inappropriate to some group somewhere has likened your speech to the parade of placards of the ignoble dead held by protesters next to an abortion clinic. After the first time driving by, everyone just ignores it because it's scenery.
You need to learn to read, and listen instead of spew silly nerdrage.
JTK Fotheringham wrote: -1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1175
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 09:52:00 -
[1970] - Quote
This is actually a genuine question?
Do CCP or someone else employ automatic computer programs to generate posts? As the behaviour mannerisms of a few, are genuinely making me question that?
As soon as anything is posted that mentions the management other than the DEVs or a protest activity other than on the forums, they come out, selectively quoting other posts,and other procedural tricks in order to cause as much derailment as possible.
When one actually reads the replies from these suspected postbots, they vary from attack mode, to seemingly rational in a moment, and frankly would not pass a turing test.
It is like a "chinese room" system of imitating comprehension has been implemented as it's AI.
I have just suffered a string of attacks, accusing me of all sorts of things, and even had the bot follow me onto mail in an attempt to cause outrage by accusing me of abusing animals.
Just weird phrases strung together.
My offence that triggered the program? Replying to a reasoned poster in a rational manner somehow made me a target for the trollbot. And I was then accused of all sorts as my "trigger" post quoted and contained the original post.
I cannot believe a human was at the keyboard. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
23
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 10:58:00 -
[1971] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.
Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long. I mined ice before the changes and I'd rather have the old way rather than the current way as logging in and the ice belt either not being up (and you no idea how long until the next one spawns) or it so close to being empty that the only difference from the "not there" option is I at least know how long I have to wait on the next spawn. Ice prices are increasing because fewer people are mining it not because it's better. And don't even go suggesting I pick up the exhumer and go jumping to the other ice systems on the off chance they havent despawned as that takes way too much time in an exhumer.
@epicurus...why use an automated program when you can just not ban the trolls for trolling and do ban the customers actually affected by the changes (or at least threaten to ban them hoping they will shut up) |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1176
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 11:06:00 -
[1972] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:Sentamon wrote:Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.
Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long. I mined ice before the changes and I'd rather have the old way rather than the current way as logging in and the ice belt either not being up (and you no idea how long until the next one spawns) or it so close to being empty that the only difference from the "not there" option is I at least know how long I have to wait on the next spawn. Ice prices are increasing because fewer people are mining it not because it's better. And don't even go suggesting I pick up the exhumer and go jumping to the other ice systems on the off chance they havent despawned as that takes way too much time in an exhumer. @epicurus...why use an automated program when you can just not ban the trolls for trolling and do ban the customers actually affected by the changes (or at least threaten to ban them hoping they will shut up)
I still find it very hard to believe that a human could fail the turing test. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
24
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 11:12:00 -
[1973] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:OMEGA REDUX wrote:Sentamon wrote:Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.
Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long. I mined ice before the changes and I'd rather have the old way rather than the current way as logging in and the ice belt either not being up (and you no idea how long until the next one spawns) or it so close to being empty that the only difference from the "not there" option is I at least know how long I have to wait on the next spawn. Ice prices are increasing because fewer people are mining it not because it's better. And don't even go suggesting I pick up the exhumer and go jumping to the other ice systems on the off chance they havent despawned as that takes way too much time in an exhumer. @epicurus...why use an automated program when you can just not ban the trolls for trolling and do ban the customers actually affected by the changes (or at least threaten to ban them hoping they will shut up) I still find it very hard to believe that a human could fail the turing test. But you are right, that would fail to work too, once the attitude becomes prevalent, that your customers are the enemy, then there is little hope left. speaking as someone who knows just how stupid a human can get, I'm going to recommend you stop seeking out info like that and just pretend that stuff didn't happen, sometimes ignorance really is bliss....sometimes the truth is a pain I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. |
Serith Ellecon
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
39
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 11:13:00 -
[1974] - Quote
So, what do we do?
Perma-wardec any corp Chitsa Jason is in? Burn Narwhals out of their hole for the same reason? Apparently he's the idiot who suggested this change.
Alternatively we could just go and drop a massive fleet of all wormholers on the Jita monument. There aren't enough of us that a mass-unsub would make a big difference to CCP's bottom line. Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1176
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 11:23:00 -
[1975] - Quote
Serith Ellecon wrote:So, what do we do?
Perma-wardec any corp Chitsa Jason is in? Burn Narwhals out of their hole for the same reason? Apparently he's the idiot who suggested this change.
Alternatively we could just go and drop a massive fleet of all wormholers on the Jita monument. There aren't enough of us that a mass-unsub would make a big difference to CCP's bottom line.
Well neither of those are exactly "our thing" are they? We cannot blame the Narwhals, for i believe they are free of him now. And the original idea has been twisted into a luck based lottery, bearing little relation to the original thought.
If it had been based on mechanics, with velocity mass and entry direction, determining spawn point, that would have still been a poor idea, adding nothing but tedium, but at least the players could make decisions and tactics around that.
Lucky spawn? How do you adapt to that rather than just avoiding it entirely.
We do not have a media arm like the mitanni, we do not have large numbers, we are all naturally fiercely independent, and this would require a real "nationalistic" mentality that is so far from what we are we might is well live elsewhere if we were to change that much.
I doubt that there is any action we can take that will force them to read and think of what they have done, we can only request and show.
All we can hope is for a change of mind, and they are not exactly known for that are they?
But other than that, what can we actually do? I am completely open to suggestions? It all depends on the cause, is it a single rogue manager with power? Is it influence from elsewhere? Is it just an honest mistake?
It is not up to us to protect CCP from itself, sure, we are the victims, and it is us who lose the EVE that brought us here, exchanged for a completely different game, that has forgotten what made it appeal.
All we can do is decide whether we want to play this new game or not, but if they had changed the name, and asked us to rejoin this new version, then one would witness the silence and watch the tumbleweed move through the systems. Those who were there to see it.
So in short, they are betting their company on inertia. That usually does not end well. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
792
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 11:32:00 -
[1976] - Quote
Sentamon wrote:Anyone remember the ice miner tears? 95% were against the change to remove unlimited ice. Now ice mining is better and more profitable then ever.
Adapt and quit crying. The only mistake CCP made was letting safe-holes go on for this long.
Personally its pretty easy or me to adapt, doesn't change that it adds tedium for largely no good reason and doesn't change that it tends to result in people either logging off or leaving wormholes which is not good at all.
Regarding "safe holes" you really have no clue. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
49
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 11:53:00 -
[1977] - Quote
Sigh this thread is going nowhere CCP have already pretty much said screw you guys and did it anyway. All that's left are the trolls and the idiots who feed them
And btw we WH's have already adapted to this change we still keep going because we can field the people needed to combat this change (I feel sorry to the smaller guys who cant and therfore have left). but that doesn't mean we like having a piece of **** shoved down our throats and then being expected to say can I have another one
CCP needs to stop changing what works and Fix what's broken. So Much Space |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 11:57:00 -
[1978] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:This is actually a genuine question.
< words... >
I have just suffered a string of attacks, accusing me of all sorts of things, and even had the bot follow me onto mail in an attempt to cause outrage by accusing me of abusing animals.
Just weird phrases strung together.
My offence that triggered the program? Replying to a reasoned poster in a rational manner somehow made me a target for the trollbot. And I was then accused of all sorts as my "trigger" post quoted and contained the original post. Therefore it switched target to me and misapplied in each case.
Very mysterious.
I cannot believe a human was at the keyboard. It will be fascinating, to see what part of this post it will extract to continue the goal of thread derailment,
< moar words... .
And to think you called me a troll. Nothing constructive being said here, again.
What do you think of this:
JTK Fotheringham wrote: -1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
792
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:02:00 -
[1979] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote: -1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
[/quote]
It more or less puts you back where you were, so might as well not beat around the bush and just revert the change IMO. |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:13:00 -
[1980] - Quote
Rroff wrote:JTK Fotheringham wrote: -1 for the changes. Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
It more or less puts you back where you were, so might as well not beat around the bush and just revert the change IMO.
Personally, I've never expected CCP to rollback. That's what ASDA do with supermarket prices, not games developers with much vaunted changes.
So, I'm prepared to look for a way forward, and I think that's a more realistic ask.
I think you still spawn 15-20km off the hole, and so risk is retained.
CCP like solutions that mitigate risk for those prepared to take steps to mitigate risk (i.e. not just remove risk).
|
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1176
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:20:00 -
[1981] - Quote
Quote:
Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
This is absolutely meaningless, it does not address any of the Issues.
Doctor " your husband needs to stay in hospital, he is at grave risk of having a heart attack and collapsing"
Reply " but he is meant to go to work, can you not fit a spring to his bottom so he bounces back onto his feet when he does?"
Makes as much sense. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:22:00 -
[1982] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Quote:
Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
This is absolutely meaningless, it does not address any of the Issues. Doctor " your husband needs to stay in hospital, he is at grave risk of having a heart attack and collapsing" Reply " but he is meant to go to work, can you not fit a spring to his bottom so he bounces back onto his feet when he does?" Makes as much sense.
How, EXACTLY, does it not address the issues?
As I see it, it seeds up mundane rage rolling. It gives cap rolling in tight spots more of a fighting chance. It nuances the risk from the rather blunt "you're 20km of the hole, sucker!" that CCP have left us with right now.
Your problem, aside from getting annoyed about this in an emotional way, is that you expect CCP to rollback. That's never going to happen. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1176
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:24:00 -
[1983] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Quote:
Please implement a fix. I'd settle for a mini-jump-drive, for caps only, that moves you 10km forward, and eats a chunk of your cap.
This is absolutely meaningless, it does not address any of the Issues. Doctor " your husband needs to stay in hospital, he is at grave risk of having a heart attack and collapsing" Reply " but he is meant to go to work, can you not fit a spring to his bottom so he bounces back onto his feet when he does?" Makes as much sense. How, EXACTLY, does it not address the issues? As I see it, it seeds up mundane rage rolling. It gives cap rolling in tight spots more of a fighting chance. It nuances the risk from the rather blunt "you're 20km of the hole, sucker!" that CCP have left us with right now.
There are many explanations in this thread, you can also learn a lot by living in wormhole space. There is no point introducing a broken idea to repair a broken idea. It is not our role to educate the lazy.
Glad at least you see the change is broken. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
793
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:24:00 -
[1984] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:Personally, I've never expected CCP to rollback. That's what ASDA do with supermarket prices, not games developers with much vaunted changes. So, I'm prepared to look for a way forward, and I think that's a more realistic ask. I think you still spawn 15-20km off the hole, and so risk is retained. CCP like solutions that mitigate risk for those prepared to take steps to mitigate risk (i.e. not just remove risk). The risk transfers to the Capital Ship's cap, so it's not just a "you're too far to jump, and automatically lose" button for campers. It's a new module! So new features ftw.
Seems silly enough people are messing about with nano'd capitals as it is without a module like that, not to mention the impact on people who don't have those options. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1176
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:32:00 -
[1985] - Quote
Rroff wrote:JTK Fotheringham wrote:Personally, I've never expected CCP to rollback. That's what ASDA do with supermarket prices, not games developers with much vaunted changes. So, I'm prepared to look for a way forward, and I think that's a more realistic ask. I think you still spawn 15-20km off the hole, and so risk is retained. CCP like solutions that mitigate risk for those prepared to take steps to mitigate risk (i.e. not just remove risk). The risk transfers to the Capital Ship's cap, so it's not just a "you're too far to jump, and automatically lose" button for campers. It's a new module! So new features ftw. Seems silly enough people are messing about with nano'd capitals as it is without a module like that, not to mention the impact on people who don't have those options. EDIT: I expect CCP to rollback tbh as as a generalisation this has been a damaging change, hasn't done anything to solve its ostensible face value goals and if its a sign of things to come means me and this game are going to be parting ways sooner rather than later.
That does match my discussions and beliefs. This will not be the final straw for all, but it is another, and a particularly heavy one. And when the camel realises that the farmer does not care if it's back does break, it is a big desert, and he can survive perfectly well without farmer CCP. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:33:00 -
[1986] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
There are many explanations in this thread, you can also learn a lot by living in wormhole space. There is no point introducing a broken idea to repair a broken idea. It is not our role to educate the lazy.
Glad at least you see the change is broken.
There's really no point in talking to you, is there? I've been living in WH space longer than you've been playing.
Go on dreaming about a rollback. But don't hold your breath. Or do. I don't really care.
I just think CCP are more likely to listen to constructive ways out of this, rather than babies threatening to throw toys out the pram. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1176
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:34:00 -
[1987] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
There are many explanations in this thread, you can also learn a lot by living in wormhole space. There is no point introducing a broken idea to repair a broken idea. It is not our role to educate the lazy.
Glad at least you see the change is broken.
There's really no point in talking to you, is there? I've been living in WH space longer than you've been playing. Go on dreaming about a rollback. But don't hold your breath. Or do. I don't really care. I just think CCP are more likely to listen to constructive ways out of this, rather than babies threatening to throw toys out the pram.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4971435#post4971435
QED. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:38:00 -
[1988] - Quote
Rroff wrote:
Seems silly enough people are messing about with nano'd capitals as it is without a module like that, not to mention the impact on people who don't have those options.
EDIT: I expect CCP to rollback tbh as as a generalisation this has been a damaging change, hasn't done anything to solve its ostensible face value goals and if its a sign of things to come means me and this game are going to be parting ways sooner rather than later.
The impact on people who don't have them would be small. They already have no way quickly collapsing a hole (though, if it's a capital only module, as I suggest, it might fit on a orca anyway?)
I'll just be very surprised to see a rollback - more so if corps have actually pulled out of WH space already. If you want to see dramatic changes to this, unsubbing accounts is the way to go. I'm not in a position to gauge that, but I expect it is not a game changer for many players. |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:42:00 -
[1989] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
< Linky to really weird post suggesting I'm a bot >
QED.
I try to engage with your points, refute your ad hom assertions about my inexperience to talk on the subject, and show you a different way, and you think I'm proving your point?
I don't think "QED" means what you think it means. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
796
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:50:00 -
[1990] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote: I'll just be very surprised to see a rollback - more so if corps have actually pulled out of WH space already. If you want to see dramatic changes to this, unsubbing accounts is the way to go. I'm not in a position to gauge that, but I expect it is not a game changer for many players.
TBH as much as it is I'm not a big fan of the change I have a very low tolerance for developers who push out changes in this manner and/or don't even bother with basic level of appropriate communication - I got a refund and will never purchase a game by treyarch again after black ops was released with game breaking bugs one day 1 and they didn't even bother to address community concerns for 19 days after release, I stopped buying EA games over similar stuff - well for about 7 years until I misguidedly bought BF4 thinking due to recent events they'd actually had a turn around - more fool me, won't be buying anything EA again. So ultimately this is backing me into a corner and in the long run I will stick to my principles. |
|
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:54:00 -
[1991] - Quote
Rroff wrote:JTK Fotheringham wrote: I'll just be very surprised to see a rollback - more so if corps have actually pulled out of WH space already. If you want to see dramatic changes to this, unsubbing accounts is the way to go. I'm not in a position to gauge that, but I expect it is not a game changer for many players.
TBH as much as it is I'm not a big fan of the change I have a very low tolerance for developers who push out changes in this manner and/or don't even bother with basic level of appropriate communication - I got a refund and will never purchase a game by treyarch again after black ops was released with game breaking bugs one day 1 and they didn't even bother to address community concerns for 19 days after release, I stopped buying EA games over similar stuff - well for about 7 years until I misguidedly bought BF4 thinking due to recent events they'd actually had a turn around - more fool me, won't be buying anything EA again. So ultimately this is backing me into a corner and in the long run I will stick to my principles.
+1 The same... never going near a title in the Total War series after Empire. So much promise, poorly executed.
It's funny though, EVE's community is what keeps me playing, despite the errors here. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
668
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:54:00 -
[1992] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote: And btw we WH's have already adapted to this change we still keep going because we can field the people needed to combat this change (I feel sorry to the smaller guys who cant and therfore have left). but that doesn't mean we like having a piece of **** shoved down our throats and then being expected to say can I have another one
CCP needs to stop changing what works and Fix what's broken.
This is pretty much it bigger groups are fine. This isnt really affecting noho at all expect to make rage rolling mroe time consuming. Small groups like my alt group in a c4 are ****** (and probably moving out)
We attually caught our first cap the other day doing the warp to bounce, while we got a bubble on the wormhole. Worst this wasn't even a wh in our main system it was some one trying to close a wh in our static. I'll have to go chat to them see if they will continue to do that or not after being caught.
I'm hoping to get numbers soon and then see what they seem to show but as has already been said it might not be enough time yet to see changes. Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1176
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 12:58:00 -
[1993] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
< Linky to really weird post suggesting I'm a bot >
QED.
I try to engage with your points, refute your ad hom assertions about my inexperience to talk on the subject, and show you a different way, and you think I'm proving your point? I don't think "QED" means what you think it means.
I question, whether one can detect a troll based reply from a machine generated one, QED basically translates from the original language as thus it is shown.
I read your recruitment thread, congratulations from moving from a C2 to a c5, pity about the loss, I would have expected someone who lives in a wormhole to have a greater understanding, but what can you do? not everyone reads the whole forum.
Just to make the point clearly and concisely, quoting a quote you yourself admire.
http://www.polygon.com/features/2014/2/24/5419788/eve-online-thrilling-boring
You may note, not one word of the article discussing eve praises or even discusses "luck" as a reason of why EVE is successful or even helpful, desirable or responsible for EVE's success in any way.
So please enlighten all the player base, as to why now it has been discovered to be cheaper and less work than actually coding a mechanic, why it should suddenly become so, and why we should embrace the new "hotness"
Adding a badly thought out sound-bite "fix" does not help, a bad idea to fix a bad idea is not helpful.
Here is a quote I admire.
Quote:No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein
Clue:- judge by peoples actions. But that will cost a lot more than the savings made through this new design philosophy. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 13:41:00 -
[1994] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
< Linky to really weird post suggesting I'm a bot >
QED.
I try to engage with your points, refute your ad hom assertions about my inexperience to talk on the subject, and show you a different way, and you think I'm proving your point? I don't think "QED" means what you think it means. I question, whether one can detect a troll based reply from a machine generated one, QED basically translates from the original language as thus it is shown. Must be embarrassing, when the readers cannot tell the difference, and a real person, appears as a failing bot. Moving on though. I read your recruitment thread, congratulations from moving from a C2 to a c5, pity about the loss, I would have expected someone who lives in a wormhole to have a greater understanding, but what can you do? not everyone reads the whole forum. Just to make the point clearly and concisely, quoting an article you yourself admire. http://www.polygon.com/features/2014/2/24/5419788/eve-online-thrilling-boringYou may note, not one word of the article discussing eve, praises or even discusses "luck" as a reason of why EVE is successful or even helpful, desirable or responsible for EVE's success in any way. So please enlighten all the player base, as to why now it has been discovered to be cheaper and less work than actually coding a mechanic, why it should suddenly become so, and why we should embrace the new "hotness"? Adding a badly thought out sound-bite "fix" five minutes before the town hall does not help, a bad idea to fix a bad idea is not helpful. Here is a quote I admire. Quote:No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it.
Albert Einstein CCP will judge by peoples actions. But that will cost a lot more than the savings made through this new design philosophy. So are CCP and the players of eve going to become another Victim to the beancounters? Or are they going to become aware and conscious of their player bases opinion?
Dude,
I took issue with you supporting a crass and insulting series of posts, and then making equally silly posts yourself. I'm offering a truce, because trading fairly lame insults is, well, fairly lame - and the main issue is fixing the mess.
I appreciate corbexx seems to think it's possible, and some others - but humour me, suppose a rollback isn't going to happen.
I've read as much of this thread as I can stomach, but i'm not seeing a lot of reasonable suggestions to fix things, other than screaming, and I stand by this, in a fairly petulant manner, for a rollback. Summaries for me your alternatives?
Edit: By the way, I disagree, luck is an aspect of EVE - especially in WH space. You're lucky in the chains you get. What's happened here is that luck has nothing to do with it - you jump, you land a set, fairly long distance away from a worm hole. There's no controlling that factor, no way to load the dice, or mitigate it. That's why I'm suggesting a solution that nuances the problem. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1177
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 14:03:00 -
[1995] - Quote
Lets move on and discuss the issues, the issue is not one of there being luck or no luck in Eve. Of course, one always encounters this in the holes that open, the drop of loot, or whether when missioning, you get dread pirate scarlet or a poor drone one.
Luck at this level is understandable, reasonable, and acceptable.
Where we move away from this is where it becomes totally unacceptable in any form.
EVE has always prided itself, in being a game where actions have consequences, when two players meet, the skills, training, experience, fittings, and use of the battlespace determine the outcome.
We all accept and live by this every day, we can lose all we have worked for in a moment, through bad choices, or just by being beaten by a better player.
We then pick ourselves up, rebuild and move on, hopefully learning, and always growing.
When this is replaced by a mechanic, where when one jumps through a hole, you will live or die depending on whether you are unlucky as to where you spawn, and no player choice, training, skill, tactics, or experience alters that.
Then they have completely devalued and made meaningless all the efforts the players have expended in the game up to that point.
I hope that explains the difference and what some find totally unacceptable.
Why play at all and make an effort, when everything you do can be undone by bad luck?
So that is the issue, it is literally a choice where one grinds for absolutely no purpose, as opposed to a universe where we make our own fate.
Do you see why minor tweaks and adjustments make no difference? And this toxic change Must either be rolled back or the players who see and understand it will leave?
There is no compromise.
EvE is either a game where player actions matter, or it is simply a lottery. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
85
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 14:24:00 -
[1996] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Lets move on and discuss the issues, the issue is not one of there being luck or no luck in Eve. Of course, one always encounters this in the holes that open, the drop of loot, or whether when missioning, you get dread pirate scarlet or a poor drone one.
Luck at this level is understandable, reasonable, and acceptable.
Where we move away from this is where it becomes totally unacceptable in any form.
EVE has always prided itself, in being a game where actions have consequences, when two players meet, the skills, training, experience, fittings, and use of the battlespace determine the outcome.
We all accept and live by this every day, we can lose all we have worked for in a moment, through bad choices, or just by being beaten by a better player.
We then pick ourselves up, rebuild and move on, hopefully learning, and always growing.
When this is replaced by a mechanic, where when one jumps through a hole, you will live or die depending on whether you are unlucky as to where you spawn, and no player choice, training, skill, tactics, or experience alters that.
Then they have completely devalued and made meaningless all the efforts the players have expended in the game up to that point.
I hope that explains the difference and what some find totally unacceptable.
Why play at all and make an effort, when everything you do can be undone by bad luck?
So that is the issue, it is literally a choice where one grinds for absolutely no purpose, as opposed to a universe where we make our own fate.
Do you see why minor tweaks and adjustments make no difference? And this toxic change Must either be rolled back or the players who see and understand it will leave?
There is no compromise.
EvE is either a game where player actions matter, or it is simply a lottery.
1) Aaargh! You got top of page 100!!!
2) In terms of the mechanics, I actually agree. If I understand you correctly, you see this as something that offers players no chance as to the outcome. It is an environmental factor that has no workaround. (BTW, WH polarisation is another environmental factor we cannot control...)
3) What we are complaining about is firstly the way the environment was changed so abruptly, with little chance for feedback. It sucks bad.
4) I don't disagree with the nature of the problem, or with complains about how it was implemented. But I'm coming from 5+ years observing CCP development. Rollbacks don't happen. I just don't see CCP reverting to the old WH spawn mechanic. (If they do, I'll happily eat my hat.)
5) It's the forward we disagree about. What I'm asking is how would we like to see it changed, if the old mechanic isn't reverted to.
Would you like a shorter spawn distance?
Would you like a module that somehow enables you to reduce the spawn distance more noticeably?
Would you like a module that greatly reduced travel time to get back within jump range?
The one thing I'm certain of is that change is vital here. The old mechanic was reasonably low risk, and I'm willing to concede that. Risk had to increase, its just a question of how CP allows us to manage that risk effectively. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1177
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 14:35:00 -
[1997] - Quote
JTK Fotheringham wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Lets move on and discuss the issues, the issue is not one of there being luck or no luck in Eve. Of course, one always encounters this in the holes that open, the drop of loot, or whether when missioning, you get dread pirate scarlet or a poor drone one.
Luck at this level is understandable, reasonable, and acceptable.
Where we move away from this is where it becomes totally unacceptable in any form.
EVE has always prided itself, in being a game where actions have consequences, when two players meet, the skills, training, experience, fittings, and use of the battlespace determine the outcome.
We all accept and live by this every day, we can lose all we have worked for in a moment, through bad choices, or just by being beaten by a better player.
We then pick ourselves up, rebuild and move on, hopefully learning, and always growing.
When this is replaced by a mechanic, where when one jumps through a hole, you will live or die depending on whether you are unlucky as to where you spawn, and no player choice, training, skill, tactics, or experience alters that.
Then they have completely devalued and made meaningless all the efforts the players have expended in the game up to that point.
I hope that explains the difference and what some find totally unacceptable.
Why play at all and make an effort, when everything you do can be undone by bad luck?
So that is the issue, it is literally a choice where one grinds for absolutely no purpose, as opposed to a universe where we make our own fate.
Do you see why minor tweaks and adjustments make no difference? And this toxic change Must either be rolled back or the players who see and understand it will leave?
There is no compromise.
EvE is either a game where player actions matter, or it is simply a lottery. 1) Aaargh! You got top of page 100!!! 2) In terms of the mechanics, I actually agree. If I understand you correctly, you see this as something that offers players no chance as to the outcome. It is an environmental factor that has no workaround. (BTW, WH polarisation is another environmental factor we cannot control...) 3) What we are complaining about is firstly the way the environment was changed so abruptly, with little chance for feedback. It sucks bad. 4) I don't disagree with the nature of the problem, or with complains about how it was implemented. But I'm coming from 5+ years observing CCP development. Rollbacks don't happen. I just don't see CCP reverting to the old WH spawn mechanic. (If they do, I'll happily eat my hat.) 5) It's the path forward we disagree about. What I'm asking is how would we like to see it changed, if the old mechanic isn't reverted to. Would you like a shorter spawn distance? Would you like a module that somehow enables you to reduce the spawn distance more noticeably? Would you like a module that greatly reduced travel time to get back within jump range? (This is actually my preferred option) The one thing I'm certain of is that change is vital here. The old mechanic was reasonably low risk, and I'm willing to concede that. Risk had to increase, its just a question of how CP allows us to manage that risk effectively.
Wormhole polarisation is a limiting mechanic, it is something players can work with and integrate with their tactics. If it randomly occured, we would have been having this discussion many years ago.
The actual declared goal, whilst I believe will fail to achieve the stated design goals, Is actually a secondary issue in this change. If CCP still believe it is a desireable goal, a mechanic where the spawn distance is based on a physical limitation and not Luck, would have possibilities.
A proposal was made in the first few pages where the spawn distance, position, and speed was DIRECTLY decided by the speed, mass and direction of the jump , and that would have been logical.
It is of course easy to just reduce programming and coding time by replacing the mechanic with a RNG.
So the choice is literally, can players decide their fate through utilising all their knowledge and abilities or will they live or die by luck.
If it is just luck, then there is absolutely no point whatsoever in continuing, as one just becomes a hamster on the grind wheel, with no control of ones own destiny.
That is not an acceptable position for many to accept.
CCP will by their actions, or lack of, which game they have decided it is. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
571
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 14:50:00 -
[1998] - Quote
And there is the page 100. Still no CCP response.
Sigh.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
434
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 15:03:00 -
[1999] - Quote
man epicurus ataraxia if you think anyone is reading your walls of text this late after the game you are sadly mistaken
i've written lorem ipsum generators that make more sense than you at this point |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1178
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 15:08:00 -
[2000] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:man epicurus ataraxia if you think anyone is reading your walls of text this late after the game you are sadly mistaken
i've written lorem ipsum generators that make more sense than you at this point
Well If CCP have decided, finally, irrevocably, to ignore what their customers think, there is little hope for them.
But you may be wrong, and it is worth a few words in the hope that you may be.
Because, they are forcing people to make decisions that affect their future prospects.
At least I will have the tiny comfort of having tried to reach them.
You do try to talk people off the Ledge rather than crying "Jump Jump" don't you?
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Aryth
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1578
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 15:39:00 -
[2001] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:man epicurus ataraxia if you think anyone is reading your walls of text this late after the game you are sadly mistaken
i've written lorem ipsum generators that make more sense than you at this point Well If CCP have decided, finally, irrevocably, to ignore what their customers think, there is little hope for them. But you may be wrong, and it is worth a few words in the hope that you may be. Because, they are forcing people to make decisions that affect their future prospects. At least I will have the tiny comfort of having tried to reach them. You do try to talk people off the Ledge rather than crying "Jump Jump" don't you?
Not always. Some people need to jump. Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal. Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1178
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 16:04:00 -
[2002] - Quote
Aryth wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:man epicurus ataraxia if you think anyone is reading your walls of text this late after the game you are sadly mistaken
i've written lorem ipsum generators that make more sense than you at this point Well If CCP have decided, finally, irrevocably, to ignore what their customers think, there is little hope for them. But you may be wrong, and it is worth a few words in the hope that you may be. Because, they are forcing people to make decisions that affect their future prospects. At least I will have the tiny comfort of having tried to reach them. You do try to talk people off the Ledge rather than crying "Jump Jump" don't you? Not always. Some people need to jump.
Not when they are controlling the servers we sign in with............ There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Talaq
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
30
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 17:33:00 -
[2003] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:man epicurus ataraxia if you think anyone is reading your walls of text this late after the game you are sadly mistaken
i've written lorem ipsum generators that make more sense than you at this point
is there actually any point to your trolling both this and the other feedback thread??
I for one still welcome normal rational discussion instead of baiting arguments, if this takes 100 pages more so be it.
nothing ventured is nothing gained anyways, so here we go again, ccp where is the feedback.
Low-Class Diplomat
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
61
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 17:35:00 -
[2004] - Quote
/shakes fist angrily in the air
My beautiful posts are gone!!!
Nothing to see here. Carry on.
P.S. This was probably a way to keep us from getting to page 100. I see what they did there. |
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 17:38:00 -
[2005] - Quote
in this thread we learned that feedback does not mean capitulating to demands |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1178
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 17:38:00 -
[2006] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:/shakes fist angrily in the air
My beautiful posts are gone!!!
Nothing to see here. Carry on.
P.S. This was probably a way to keep us from getting to page 100. I see what they did there.
Well we were there for a short while, hopefully CCP will read the remaining posts and realise, that the only way this will be forgotten is by those who leave and no longer care. The rest will hang on to the hope with the last minute of their game time.
Unfortunately, once that is gone, they are lost to us forever.
So many good people, and so many more to come. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
61
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 17:40:00 -
[2007] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Kirasten wrote:/shakes fist angrily in the air
My beautiful posts are gone!!!
Nothing to see here. Carry on.
P.S. This was probably a way to keep us from getting to page 100. I see what they did there. Well we were there for a short while, hopefully CCP will read the remaining posts and realise, that the only way this will be forgotten is by those who leave and no longer care. The rest will hang on to the hope with the last minute of their game time. Unfortunately, once that is gone, they are lost to us forever.
My post with 4 likes was removed. Bye bye sweet post.
/cry |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1178
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 17:47:00 -
[2008] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:in this thread we learned that feedback does not mean capitulating to demands
If one's house is burned to the ground, the land salted, and ones children driven to the four winds, in the name of progress.
It is a little late asking for feedback about the colour of the tarmac, of the road that is laid down where you once lived.
Particuarly as one was asked for feedback before your house was destroyed.
And that was never anything else but something to distract you while the bulldozers went in. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1178
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 17:48:00 -
[2009] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Promiscuous Female wrote:in this thread we learned that feedback does not mean capitulating to demands If one's house is burned to the ground, the land salted, and ones children driven to the four winds, in the name of progress. It is a little late asking for feedback about the colour of the tarmac, of the road that is laid down where you once lived. Particuarly as one was asked for feedback before your house was destroyed. And that was never anything else but something to distract you while the bulldozers went in. melodrama
You have a better explaination? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2026
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 19:31:00 -
[2010] - Quote
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!
The Rules: 3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.
5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.
11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.
The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category.
19. All posts must be related to EVE Online.
Posts regarding other companies and products or services are prohibited and any content of this nature will be removed. Posts regarding other games are however permitted on the Out of Pod Experience forum for the purposes of discussion only.
22. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued.
30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties. Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.
31. Rumor mongering is prohibited.
Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the well being and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators.
33. Posting of chat logs outside the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
The posting of chat logs between player parties is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel where they can be posted as part of stories in the Pirate Story Thread. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel.
34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel.
Thread re-opened ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
25
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 19:39:00 -
[2011] - Quote
OMEGA REDUX wrote:i wonder how long the above post of mine lasts before some ccp or isd deletes it because they want to be treated with oh so much respect but wont treat us the same. edit: this is the reason i dont care if i get banned from posting on the forums http://i.imgur.com/jSSfu4V.jpg oh and i pay with plex so no need to worry about actually cancelling anything as i just don't buy plex ******* called it didn't I |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
61
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 19:45:00 -
[2012] - Quote
ISDs are the greatest forum trolls. Well played. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
51
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 20:09:00 -
[2013] - Quote
100 pages to 87......well played sir well played So Much Space |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
571
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 21:10:00 -
[2014] - Quote
The Morals and Ethics: 1. Please don't lie to us and try to keep a straight face afterwards.
If I post an offtopic thing on this forums and CCP devs don't read it did it really happen?
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Moloney
Mass Effect Enterprises
112
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 21:31:00 -
[2015] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay. Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil! The Rules:3. Ranting is prohibited.
A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents. 4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.5. Trolling is prohibited.
Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.11. Discussion of forum moderation is prohibited.
The discussion of EVE Online forum moderation actions generally leads to flaming, trolling and baiting of our ISD CCL moderators. As such, this type of discussion is strictly prohibited under the forum rules. If you have questions regarding the actions of a moderator, please file a petition under the Community & Forums Category. 19. All posts must be related to EVE Online.
Posts regarding other companies and products or services are prohibited and any content of this nature will be removed. Posts regarding other games are however permitted on the Out of Pod Experience forum for the purposes of discussion only. 22. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting. 26. Off-topic posting is prohibited.
Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued. 30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties. Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts. 31. Rumor mongering is prohibited.
Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the well being and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators. 33. Posting of chat logs outside the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
The posting of chat logs between player parties is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel where they can be posted as part of stories in the Pirate Story Thread. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel. 34. Posting of kill reports outside of the Crime & Punishment forum channel is prohibited.
More often than not, posts of this nature are made with inflammatory intent and are designed to promote trolling and flaming. Therefore, the posting of links to kill reports from any third party site, or the direct copy-pasting of kill reports from in game is prohibited on all forum channels of the EVE Online Forums, with the exception of the Crime & Punishment Channel. Specific rules regarding the omission of pilot names apply in this instance. Further details can be found in the rules stickies in the Crime & Punishment forum channel. Thread re-opened
Everything in this thread is feedback including any discus tat your past and continuing actions / lack of actions.
Repeating the FEEDBACK: start listening to the changes that are wanted. Stop implementing changes that are stated as unwanted by the majority o fthe community that uses this part of the game. |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3746
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 21:55:00 -
[2016] - Quote
Cutting 13 pages is nothing short of censorship. Doing this on the WH forums is a guaranteed way to kill a thread instantly, thanks ISD. Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1179
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 22:06:00 -
[2017] - Quote
Wow!
Something touched a nerve.
It Seems they did learn something about disaster management from incarna? Or is that a na+»ve conclusion?
It will be interesting to see what follows now, do they recover their footing, and we can all move forward together?
Or they plunge blindly onwards, in denial. Alone.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2027
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 22:49:00 -
[2018] - Quote
There seems to be some confusion about the task of ISD's CCL division on this forum. Cleaning a thread of rule breaking posts has nothing to do with the content of said thread, it has to do with upholding the forum rules.
To quote two posts made by me in other threads on that: ISD Ezwal wrote:Please people, it's perfectly fine to disagree with each other and to post your opinions or a reaction on the opinion of others without resorting to profanity or personal attacks. In other words, it is possible to do so without breaking the rules. For example: 'Oh go hang yourself you bloody moron, I'm sick of you blabbering your pigshit all over this thread!' would most certainly get removed. It probably even gets you reported to CCP. On the other hand 'I can not put forward strongly enough the fact that I totally disagree with your line of thinking. I might even add I would find great difficulty in living with myself if I where to share your point of view!' would not. And in essence it says the same.... ISD Ezwal wrote:As there seems to be a bit of confusion as to why certain posts get deleted even if they are perceived not to be rule breaking, a little bit of explanation might be in order. If a post is found to be rule breaking it either gets edited or it gets deleted. If the latter, all posts quoting them (or replying to them without direct quoting) AND all post reacting on those quotes/replies get deleted as well for thread consistency. Even if those posts are not rule breaking in and of themselves. As an addition, the same goes for replies to edited out parts of the post they quote. For example: Post A is rule breaking and gets deleted. B replies to A, C replies to A, D however replies to B and E to K reply to D. The entire string of posts gets deleted because A is the origin of that string of posts. Please accept this explanation as is and do not reply to it. That would be off the topic of this thread. If you are perceiving a problem with ISD behaviour on the forum or are disagreeing with the way (your) posts are being moderated, please feel free to read the CCP policies and follow the procedure found under the header 'Complaints'
So please keep it on topic and above all civil from here on! ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
64
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 22:54:00 -
[2019] - Quote
ISD Ezwal wrote:There seems to be some confusion about the task of ISD's CCL division on this forum. Cleaning a thread of rule breaking posts has nothing to do with the content of said thread, it has to do with upholding the forum rules.To quote two posts made by me in other threads on that: ISD Ezwal wrote:Please people, it's perfectly fine to disagree with each other and to post your opinions or a reaction on the opinion of others without resorting to profanity or personal attacks. In other words, it is possible to do so without breaking the rules. For example: 'Oh go hang yourself you bloody moron, I'm sick of you blabbering your pigshit all over this thread!' would most certainly get removed. It probably even gets you reported to CCP. On the other hand 'I can not put forward strongly enough the fact that I totally disagree with your line of thinking. I might even add I would find great difficulty in living with myself if I where to share your point of view!' would not. And in essence it says the same.... ISD Ezwal wrote:As there seems to be a bit of confusion as to why certain posts get deleted even if they are perceived not to be rule breaking, a little bit of explanation might be in order. If a post is found to be rule breaking it either gets edited or it gets deleted. If the latter, all posts quoting them (or replying to them without direct quoting) AND all post reacting on those quotes/replies get deleted as well for thread consistency. Even if those posts are not rule breaking in and of themselves. As an addition, the same goes for replies to edited out parts of the post they quote. For example: Post A is rule breaking and gets deleted. B replies to A, C replies to A, D however replies to B and E to K reply to D. The entire string of posts gets deleted because A is the origin of that string of posts. Please accept this explanation as is and do not reply to it. That would be off the topic of this thread. If you are perceiving a problem with ISD behaviour on the forum or are disagreeing with the way (your) posts are being moderated, please feel free to read the CCP policies and follow the procedure found under the header 'Complaints' So please keep it on topic and above all civil from here on!
I am never quoting anything ever again. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
186
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 23:46:00 -
[2020] - Quote
Hmmm. It seems several of my posts that folks liked were removed during the 13 pages that disappeared while I was asleep.
Without directly responding to the moderation performed, it does beg for something to be said on the matter. Of course, anything I would want to say is going to get deleted under the list of rules quoted repeatedly. So I'll just demonstrate my non-specific annoyance over not knowing what these alerts of folks liking things I said had to do with, as it was late and I'm not sure I can recall anymore what was typed.
To conclude, I dislike the mass based spawn range changes due to the added complexity of having to now train into a webbing intercepter for every pilot in my WH corp. We are choosing to do the webbing tactic wherein 5 ships jump the wormhole, 2 interceptors and then the battleship, orca, and dread. We bounce all ships out to the interceptor, under webs, and back to the hole in around 30 seconds. Takes coordination and a bit of practice. Still it's annoying and at great risk of losing ships. But we're all sick of sitting in a POS bubble with our thumbs up our backsides. |
|
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2014.08.31 23:58:00 -
[2021] - Quote
y'all do realize that feedback can be received and not acted upon without breaking the general social contract of the solicitation of feedback right
shoot I got a lot of stuff that I don't like about the game but me agreeing or disagreeing with a change in a feedback thread is not the sole arbitrator of whether or not a thing goes into the game
sometimes balance changes have to go through, that is the way it is |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
797
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 00:05:00 -
[2022] - Quote
Promiscuous Female wrote:y'all do realize that feedback can be received and not acted upon without breaking the general social contract of the solicitation of feedback right
shoot I got a lot of stuff that I don't like about the game but me agreeing or disagreeing with a change in a feedback thread is not the sole arbitrator of whether or not a thing goes into the game
sometimes balance changes have to go through, that is the way it is
Sure, but thats not what has caused much of the fuss. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
186
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 00:10:00 -
[2023] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Cutting 13 pages is nothing short of censorship. Doing this on the WH forums is a guaranteed way to kill a thread instantly, thanks ISD. Well, I do know at least two pages of that was basically people trolling, with responses that, under the rules stated, were flaming. So apparently flaming trolls are inappropriate. I suspect most of us knew that. We did it anyhow (and should feel shame) because our frustrations are not been attended to in any manner, and our reactions have turned to blind rage against anyone and anything around us.
As to this thread or this subforum being affected, I think we have, in effect, been trolled, and as such the ire of me and my fellow posters who said things pertinent to the discussion about W-space changes has increased threefold from the limiting of our only voice.
When get bland palliatives as response to our feedback thus far, the feedback request of us by a CCP employee (who shall remain nameless as it seems referring to him directly will only result in more trolling, flaming, and derogatory commentary) really feel like an unintentional baseball to the groin. Sadly, this isn't one of those humorous video shows, and no one's laughing. I would really like to know what the feedback thread was created for? Does this need to become a force feedback thread, where, because we know the volume and pitch needs to go up dramamtically, we shake the very bedrock of Iceland? Would that generate a respoo |
JTK Fotheringham
Infinity Engine Sleeping Dragons
86
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 00:20:00 -
[2024] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Cutting 13 pages is nothing short of censorship. Doing this on the WH forums is a guaranteed way to kill a thread instantly, thanks ISD.
Nah. I read a lot of the stuff that got the chop - I was annoyed with a lot of it and flame trolled some of the posters rather than just flagging the posts. The thread's better without the junk - my own contributions included.
ISDs probs did a good job there.
Are we still calling for a roll back? |
Skotos Melek
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 02:49:00 -
[2025] - Quote
apparently CCP didn't like my talk of discontinuing the payments on my alt account I posted earlier, so they cut it from the thread. What's the matter guys, you concerned that I might give people ideas? Fact is, I will plex this account if I can for a little while to see if you make the right decision and revert back to the old wh system (though the addition of extra wh spawns and the other changes are fine by me) If you don't, then you will lose the revenue from this account, and likely another of mine as well, as I can't see myself becoming a part of the null blobs or moving to low sec. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
188
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 04:13:00 -
[2026] - Quote
Skotos Melek wrote:apparently CCP didn't like my talk of discontinuing the payments on my alt account I posted earlier, so they cut it from the thread. What's the matter guys, you concerned that I might give people ideas? Fact is, I will plex this account if I can for a little while to see if you make the right decision and revert back to the old wh system (though the addition of extra wh spawns and the other changes are fine by me) If you don't, then you will lose the revenue from this account, and likely another of mine as well, as I can't see myself becoming a part of the null blobs or moving to low sec. I think our discussion of PLEX vs. Subscriptions was cut. Long and the short of it, CCP makes more money from PLEX sales than through sub fees.
It seems my corp is resigned to adapt, and their outrage has subsided about this change. Hell, some are even excited about maybe catching some newb corp using a dread and we get to kill 'em. Who knew? Still, minor changes were made to our fleet doctrines, and we're hoping to catch enemy caps trying to roll holes, and maybe get some better fights from it. Should be fun. |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
121
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 06:59:00 -
[2027] - Quote
Valenthe de Celine wrote:Hell, some are even excited about maybe catching some newb corp using a dread and we get to kill 'em. You do realize that you could already do that before the changes? It only turned from being a Bhaals-Deep OP to "lol, web and shoot it".
|
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
135
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 09:03:00 -
[2028] - Quote
As others have stated already, this thread, as expected, got censored heavily. Im sure CCP has a record of the posts that got deleted.
Needless to say, most of the flames and unruly posting is a result of your players (at least the majority of those who actually play in whs..) being very unhappy with this change to wh- mechanics.
There is nothing more to say, and nobody but your CEO Hellmar understands better when we rightfully assume now that you wont listen to what we say anyway, but rather to what we do.
Im sure you are going to monitor WH activiy, by whatever metrics you might use, and you gonna see the result of your latest patch one way or the other.
What pisses me off way more than those changes (which ruin whs for me personally, but who cares), is your complete lack of response and your unwillingness to properly answer the complaints and concerns that your players raised.
In over 130 pages, if you take both threads together minus the deletes, people essentially brought up the same arguments over and over again. You know what we think, and WHY we think this is a bad thing, yet you choose not to provide your side of the story or your answer to our concerns.
poor job, really poor job. Even IF the Hyperion expansion, in contrast to what many of us believe, would turn out be a success, and assuming you did not kill WH life for basically every small corp out there, what remains is the stain that your way of interacting with your customers is **** poor and unprofessional.
thanks for nothing,CCP.
guess we should stop posting and act |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
574
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 09:10:00 -
[2029] - Quote
Oh they hear alright but chose not to listen.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Valenthe de Celine
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
188
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 11:28:00 -
[2030] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:Valenthe de Celine wrote:Hell, some are even excited about maybe catching some newb corp using a dread and we get to kill 'em. You do realize that you could already do that before the changes? It only turned from being a Bhaals-Deep OP to "lol, web and shoot it". Yeah, I'm well aware. But we're a small corp, so was honestly beyond our mean before. Now... I'd say we stand a better than average chance of ruining someone else's rolling efforts as easily as they could be ruining ours. It's good to be able to give back, you know? |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1182
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 11:31:00 -
[2031] - Quote
Pity, five years waiting for some love and care, they eventually decide it is time to throw us a bone, unfortunately we are expected to shut up and be happy and grateful, even though it has maggots.
Fine, message received. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
46
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 14:37:00 -
[2032] - Quote
Remove Local From Null and Low.. would make it awesome to fly in..Why Would local even exist in the so called wild lands of 0.0?
This dose not make since and it would make it more believable to not have local there Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1183
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 14:55:00 -
[2033] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:Remove Local From Null and Low.. would make it awesome to fly in..Why Would local even exist in the so called wild lands of 0.0?
This dose not make since and it would make it more believable to not have local there
Why encourage them to wreck another area of space! God knows they will need the customers, and making life shittier for null and low will hardly solve that, not that many in wormholes will choose that as an alternative either way, and just because wormholes post Hyperion are still less crappy than Null, does not mean that we will continue to live in wormholes and put up with things. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
183
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 16:22:00 -
[2034] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Edit, I have been reading the press releases, and the self congatulatory comments, everywhere. Do they really not know what they have done? Are they THAT disconnected from their customers?
No. Yes. |
Moloney
Mass Effect Enterprises
117
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 16:35:00 -
[2035] - Quote
If anyone has an idea for action on what to do about CCP, this is the time to speak up.
With their new 6 week dev cycles there are going to be new changes out in 5 weeks.
I have not seen anything about what they are going to **** up next but when they do it, again without any time for feedback, their attention is going to move further away from WH. (Not that they are listening anyhow.) |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1183
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 16:56:00 -
[2036] - Quote
Moloney wrote:If anyone has an idea for action on what to do about CCP, this is the time to speak up.
With their new 6 week dev cycles there are going to be new changes out in 5 weeks.
I have not seen anything about what they are going to **** up next but when they do it, again without any time for feedback, their attention is going to move further away from WH. (Not that they are listening anyhow.)
I wish there was something, shooting space pixels in Jita, Posting in forums, Our CSM trying his hardest, all seem to be pointless exercises.
It seems the only choices they wish us to have are suck it up or leave.
They had plenty of time to consider and act on all our responses. And have chosen not to,so I guess that's it, they have given their answer.
That is really sad.
Guess that's the decision we will have to make, not one any of us wanted, but what else can one do?
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
26
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 17:25:00 -
[2037] - Quote
Moloney wrote:If anyone has an idea for action on what to do about CCP, this is the time to speak up.
With their new 6 week dev cycles there are going to be new changes out in 5 weeks.
I have not seen anything about what they are going to **** up next but when they do it, again without any time for feedback, their attention is going to move further away from WH. (Not that they are listening anyhow.) actually it's 4 weeks till new changes since all this year at least they are actually releasing every 5 weeks not 6. |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
671
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 17:37:00 -
[2038] - Quote
holy **** bet this was to troll me for waiting 30 mins to publish my blog just as it reached 100 pages.
Not like people are upset and annoyed anyway Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1186
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 19:32:00 -
[2039] - Quote
corbexx wrote:holy **** bet this was to troll me for waiting 30 mins to publish my blog just as it reached 100 pages.
Not like people are upset and annoyed anyway
We appreciate all you are doing for us, and we know you cannot discuss your conversations with CCP, but upset and annoyed with the "change" and we all know which one, could be considered the understatement of the century
Please just let them know, that the small thread here is simply a minor expression of our feelings, if this was null the same dissatisfaction would be running over 10,000 pages by now, and most of EVE would be on fire!
We just do things a little more quietly, but still feel as strongly. And there will be a lot of voices I think silenced forever by this.
Just remind them that moving out of an area or a game that is lo longer desirable is also adaptation please.
Personally, my decision is still mixed, a great corp, and great people in a game I love VS Does anything I do matter, when luck can undo all I work for. EvE used to depend on the players skills abilities and tactics and not luck. I detailed that fully a page or two back, thankfully, it is still there. Luck in what wandering hole spawns, and when, what mass you get, what mission a HS runner gets, what loot drops, all that is fine, luck deciding if you live or die, and there are no tactics can change it apart from avoiding it altogether, is a completely different matter, and one cannot avoid jumping holes.
We have enough destructive luck to deal with with disconnects, and Bugs, there is enough luck in trying to petition this, at best 50/50 even when its a cast iron case. you cannot petition intentional design to randomly destroy you.
This is the one that matters to me, others have a different view, some is that it is more tiresome, some that the effort reward balance is now skewed towards effort, some feel they no longer have control in any way and are just worn out. Some just don't care any more. Different views, but all feel it is bad, we are consistent in that. Same change, just so bad in so many ways.
So what do we do? Payments are coming due, plex bought and stowed in preparation for a multi year Hibernation.
Is there hope? As it stands, I almost cannot face signing in, it doesn't feel like it is worth it anymore. Home feels just broken....... There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Jack Miton
Isogen 5
3764
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 21:39:00 -
[2040] - Quote
corbexx wrote:holy **** bet this was to troll me for waiting 30 mins to publish my blog just as it reached 100 pages. Not like people are upset and annoyed anyway lol :P i may or may not have waited 20 min or so before going to bed to see if i could get the first post on 100 (thread was 1 post short) Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/ Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/ |
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
68
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 23:46:00 -
[2041] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:corbexx wrote:holy **** bet this was to troll me for waiting 30 mins to publish my blog just as it reached 100 pages. Not like people are upset and annoyed anyway lol :P i may or may not have waited 20 min or so before going to bed to see if i could get the first post on 100 (thread was 1 post short)
I don't remember who got first. It was quoted and congratulated, but I don't know if the post survived the "trimming". |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1191
|
Posted - 2014.09.01 23:48:00 -
[2042] - Quote
I did! I made it into the first post on page 100! a first!
but it didn't last long, sadly just another disappointment, But I made it there, I will always cherish it!
Well there is always tomorrow for so many things, Still trying to hold onto hope by my fingernails.
First post on page 89, doesn't have quite the same ring to it, but still a little bit nice. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
578
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 00:22:00 -
[2043] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Jack Miton wrote:corbexx wrote:holy **** bet this was to troll me for waiting 30 mins to publish my blog just as it reached 100 pages. Not like people are upset and annoyed anyway lol :P i may or may not have waited 20 min or so before going to bed to see if i could get the first post on 100 (thread was 1 post short) I don't remember who got first. It was quoted and congratulated, but I don't know if the post survived the "trimming". I know I got the 4th post. http://i.imgur.com/Uf2sNUF.jpg
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
68
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 03:39:00 -
[2044] - Quote
So when we reach page 100 again, does the winner get to say "FIRST!!!"
|
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
379
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 04:08:00 -
[2045] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:So when we reach page 100 again, does the winner get to say "FIRST!!!"
Yes. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
185
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 04:13:00 -
[2046] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:So when we reach page 100 again, does the winner get to say "FIRST!!!"
No, they'll lock it then, delete the thread, and claim that since there was no opposition to the mass-changes, and no proof, they'll keep it. |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
379
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 04:45:00 -
[2047] - Quote
Since the changes: 1. One of our senior pilots is running out the timer on his accounts. 2. We end up logging in highsec alts and running L4 missions or running cruisers through lowsec because unless more of us are on, our wh is log jammed and we can't do a thing about it. 3. Our players are logging in about 1/2 as often since there's nothing to do when they log in unless we pre-schedule ops.
Did you kill w-space? No, but you didn't make it more enjoyable. Luckily we can all get together and run scout sites now? |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
578
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 09:08:00 -
[2048] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote: No, they'll lock it then, delete the thread, and claim that since there was no opposition to the mass-changes, and no proof, they'll keep it.
This is sadly what will probably happen.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
578
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 09:10:00 -
[2049] - Quote
Jita depots round 2 still stand.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
71
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 11:13:00 -
[2050] - Quote
Since apparently my feedback on the results of the current set of wormhole changes was deleted for no reason I can see.
#89 Posted: 2014.09.02 11:06 | Report Here are some facts.
Our corp has already moved all but bare minimum of assets out of the wormhole. The last few ships will be leaving in less than a month. The wormhole will be left empty. We have lived there for over three years, almost four. There will be zero content in said wormhole of any kind coming from us. The vast majority of our accounts will be left to expire, and not renewed. Quite possibly ALL of our accounts.
It was already problematic to say the least to maintain wormhole ops with our small corp prior to this set of changes. The risk/reward was borderline. Now it is an untenable position. The cumulative effect of the recent wormhole changes WILL result in less activity, less active accounts, and less players in Eve.
Was this the goal? Because that is the result.
*No anecdotal evidence was used in this post.
Shame really. Wormhole life was challenging for us. Now it simply is not worth the hassle.
This is my feedback CCP, directly related to your patch. If posts that state a decision to no longer invest money in to your game as a result of changes you have made, perhaps you should add that to the forum rules. |
|
MaxDEL
Quantum Explosion E X P L O S I O N
108
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 11:38:00 -
[2051] - Quote
Man, with all due respect - you are a corporation of carrybears - just meat for everyone. Our corporation has about 100 accounts at the time of cancellation API Statistics and as we had about 150 accounts are not in our corporation. Total that our corporation has existed alliance BLODD UNION we have done a lot in the development direction of PVP in WH. 2 months ago CCP robbed us of our opportunity to engage in PVP, now it has selected the opportunity to slam the wormhole. At the moment, my corporation has already lived in the hi sec and frozen more than 200 accounts. More than 30 people will not come back in this game. So that you can continue here to tell a CCP is bad. Accept the truth - CCP and Fozzie GÇïGÇï**** on you.
If you are interested in this game - stop her disburse - developers will realize they made a mistake only when lose a lot of money on your small investment of money. |
Winthorp
2673
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 11:42:00 -
[2052] - Quote
I normally wouldn't troll language barriers its beneath even me but.... Can carrybears become a thing? I love it. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
579
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 11:49:00 -
[2053] - Quote
Another patch another WH change, biggest issue still not addressed.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Cassini Valentine
The Red Circle Inc. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 12:07:00 -
[2054] - Quote
Good things about mass based spawn distance:
- Can web and kill things that have randomly spawned a long distance from wh. Purely a luck based system.
Problems with mass based spawn distance:
- Extremely difficult to attack in someone's home system.
- Went to fight in our neighbours home system. Our dread got a really crappy spawn and had a hard time pewing things. We didn't bring x2 carriers in instead of dread because there was a risk they wouldn't spawn within refit range and then we'd be screwed.
- If we'd rolled into serious PvP entity we can't reroll because our numbers would be too low until peak times and the risk of being caught rolling is too high. If this was our only exit from home then we would all have to POS spin until they go away or log off for 24hrs til we get a new spawn
I mean I'd love this change if it was possible for us getting more fights and more contact with w-space members, but so far this change has been a big negative in my own experience from living in a C5-C5. |
Moloney
Faceless Men
123
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 12:08:00 -
[2055] - Quote
MaxDEL wrote:Man, with all due respect - you are a corporation of carrybears - just meat for everyone. Our corporation has about 100 accounts at the time of cancellation API Statistics and as we had about 150 accounts are not in our corporation. Total that our corporation has existed alliance BLODD UNION we have done a lot in the development direction of PVP in WH. 2 months ago CCP robbed us of our opportunity to engage in PVP, (ed: api kill data in wspace)
Now you know why the api data was pulled. CCP do not want us having data to analyse the impact of the changes. |
Petra Hakaari
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
104
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 12:46:00 -
[2056] - Quote
My corp is thinking on leaving the C5 to a C4...
Isnt it about time to revert this fuckup already? |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3410
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 13:49:00 -
[2057] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:My corp is thinking on leaving the C5 to a C4...
Isnt it about time to revert this fuckup already?
How many times in the last 4 or 5 years has CCP actually completely backed out an implementation? Modified, yes, a number of times. But extremely seldom actually reverted back. (It took an ingame riot and a ton of unsubs to fix that Incarna disaster).
To revert back, that would mean that a dev would have to admit they did not have a clue what they were talking about in the first place. That does not happen. The loss of wormhole based subs to this huge mistake, though significant within the wh community, will be lost in the overall slow and ongoing degradation of the overall sub base. High sec casuals continue to leave because high sec has become an economic wasteland, and null sec players leave due to stultifying boredom brought about by the collaboration of the cartels and the dev's.
It is quite odd. CCP has managed to create a environment where virtually zero risk and zero PVP can exist in sov null, while radically increasing risk and lowering reward PvE in high sec and wormholes. This paradigm is the exact opposite of what should exist.
The movers and shakers at CCP really need to examine what their playerbase, and potential players want. The majority of players want the game to be FUN, and for many, the chance of getting blown up at any moment with little chance of reward is NOT fun.
Every day, it becomes more clear that there is a major philosophical disconnect between the majority of the subscription base and CCP decision-makers. The result is what we have today. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
579
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 13:51:00 -
[2058] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:My corp is thinking on leaving the C5 to a C4...
Isnt it about time to revert this fuckup already? Good luck rolling those holes without orca.
It can be done with battleships but there will be f-ups and it will take a lot longer.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
73
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 14:24:00 -
[2059] - Quote
Why would they not have an orca? It fit's in to a c3, never mind a c4. And building one certainly isn't that hard. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
798
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 15:27:00 -
[2060] - Quote
Cassini Valentine wrote:Good things about mass based spawn distance:
- Can web and kill things that have randomly spawned a long distance from wh. Purely a luck based system.
Problems with mass based spawn distance:
- Extremely difficult to attack in someone's home system.
- Went to fight in our neighbours home system. Our dread got a really crappy spawn and had a hard time pewing things. We didn't bring x2 carriers in instead of dread because there was a risk they wouldn't spawn within refit range and then we'd be screwed.
- If we'd rolled into serious PvP entity we can't reroll because our numbers would be too low until peak times and the risk of being caught rolling is too high. If this was our only exit from home then we would all have to POS spin until they go away or log off for 24hrs til we get a new spawn
I mean I'd love this change if it was possible for us getting more fights and more contact with w-space members, but so far this change has been a big negative in my own experience from living in a C5-C5.
An interesting tactical issue from what I heard of that fight with the outcome of jumping the carrier(s) in with no idea if the random spawn would have dumped them in overwhelming neut range or not makes things very difficult and ultimately is a pretty poor mechanic to deal with. |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1194
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 15:36:00 -
[2061] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Cassini Valentine wrote:Good things about mass based spawn distance:
- Can web and kill things that have randomly spawned a long distance from wh. Purely a luck based system.
Problems with mass based spawn distance:
- Extremely difficult to attack in someone's home system.
- Went to fight in our neighbours home system. Our dread got a really crappy spawn and had a hard time pewing things. We didn't bring x2 carriers in instead of dread because there was a risk they wouldn't spawn within refit range and then we'd be screwed.
- If we'd rolled into serious PvP entity we can't reroll because our numbers would be too low until peak times and the risk of being caught rolling is too high. If this was our only exit from home then we would all have to POS spin until they go away or log off for 24hrs til we get a new spawn
I mean I'd love this change if it was possible for us getting more fights and more contact with w-space members, but so far this change has been a big negative in my own experience from living in a C5-C5. An interesting tactical issue from what I heard of that fight with the outcome of jumping the carrier(s) in with no idea if the random spawn would have dumped them in overwhelming neut range or not makes things very difficult and ultimately is a pretty poor mechanic to deal with.
Yes when one lives or dies through blind luck, is is not an introduced mechanic, it is a tumor. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
David Laurentson
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
99
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 19:34:00 -
[2062] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote: Why would they not have an orca? It fit's in to a c3, never mind a c4. And building one certainly isn't that hard.
Main reason is the same one that'd make you want to use it in the first place: it's mass. Now, it'll spawn ~11km off-hole, and has a top speed of "nah".
Way back in the day, I lived in a c2 with a lowsec static, with a failing corp, and I frequently had tot roll the hole on my own just to get fuel in. It sucked! Polarisation timers meant it'd take 20+ minutes to do. Add in an uncloaked hole-crawl every time, and it would have driven me out of the game years ago.
I'll be honest, the message I'm getting here is that T3s were too cheap, so w-space needed fewer bears, and the chosen approach was to make w-space less... comfortable... to live in.
And unfortunately, that's going to suck for folk who hunt bear.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1194
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 20:43:00 -
[2063] - Quote
Overall the level between reward and hostility is out of balance at the moment.
In the majority this can be tweaked, particuarly when corbexx has his figures of real income earned in the various hole types and the post hyperion metrics from CCP.
The mass spawn is the outrider here, the core of it is damaging, and that needs pulling until a more suitable replacement is found that does not break the whole cause and effect design of EVE, there's no place in EVE where one should ever get randomly put into a place where the player cannot influence the outcome.
Random disconnects and bugs are bad enough without them being designed into the game. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
728
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:41:00 -
[2064] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Overall the level between reward and hostility is out of balance at the moment.
In the majority this can be tweaked, particuarly when corbexx has his figures of real income earned in the various hole types and the post hyperion metrics from CCP.
The mass spawn is the outrider here, the core of it is damaging, and that needs pulling until a more suitable replacement is found that does not break the whole cause and effect design of EVE, there's no place in EVE where one should ever get randomly put into a place where the player cannot influence the outcome.
Random disconnects and bugs are bad enough without them being designed into the game. you know you've been posting the same thing about your rage against any randomness in where you wind up for ninety pages without really ever dealing with the reality that every gate in nullsec sticks you randomly on the edge of a large sphere and has for a decade
yet somehow we survive |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1495
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 22:58:00 -
[2065] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Overall the level between reward and hostility is out of balance at the moment.
In the majority this can be tweaked, particuarly when corbexx has his figures of real income earned in the various hole types and the post hyperion metrics from CCP.
The mass spawn is the outrider here, the core of it is damaging, and that needs pulling until a more suitable replacement is found that does not break the whole cause and effect design of EVE, there's no place in EVE where one should ever get randomly put into a place where the player cannot influence the outcome.
Random disconnects and bugs are bad enough without them being designed into the game. Welcome to a lesser version of the randomness everyone else in every other area of space already deals with. Gates being a form of artificial wormhole and all if you bothered to read the lore. And they kick everyone out 15k off the gate in a random direction. Not a mere 5k like most ships get in a WH.
It hasn't killed the rest of EVE. It won't kill WH's. |
Kynric
Sky Fighters
163
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:20:00 -
[2066] - Quote
With as many connections as we have had during the last few days there has not been any need to roll anything to find content in my own happy home. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
798
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:24:00 -
[2067] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: It hasn't killed the rest of EVE. It won't kill WH's.
Flaw in your reasoning - WHs aren't like the rest of eve, so what might not kill the rest of Eve might very well kill WHs. (Or not). |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1495
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:29:00 -
[2068] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote: It hasn't killed the rest of EVE. It won't kill WH's.
Flaw in your reasoning - WHs aren't like the rest of eve, so what might not kill the rest of Eve might very well kill WHs. (Or not). Ok, fair enough :P It's 'very unlikely' to kill WH's. The lack of combat/data/relic sites spawning and the sheer number of WH's spawning seem to be a much bigger issue though. |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
123
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:38:00 -
[2069] - Quote
Oh dear. Now we have an invasion of clueless nullbears.
Wormholes are NOT stargates! This discussion is not about subcaps that can burn into position within a few seconds. It's a about large and slow moving Caps. When was the last time you jumped a cap through a stargate?
If anything you should compare wormholes with cynos. Imagine you couldn't cyno your Jump Freighter right into docking range of a station and instead had to slowboat 10km before docking.
|
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1495
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:47:00 -
[2070] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:Oh dear. Now we have an invasion of clueless nullbears.
Wormholes are NOT stargates! This discussion is not about subcaps that can burn into position within a few seconds. It's a about large and slow moving Caps. When was the last time you jumped a cap through a stargate?
If anything you should compare wormholes with cynos. Imagine you couldn't cyno your Jump Freighter right into docking range of a station and instead had to slowboat 10km before docking.
Freighters can use gates. Freighters constantly get caught 15km of a gate after jumping through it. Freighters can't instantly jump back. Wormholes are not Stargates, you are right one way, but Stargates are Wormholes. Educate yourself on EVE lore.
As for Cynos, yes, also artificial Wormholes. And a lot of people have been wanting Cynos to have exactly this kind of slight scatter to stop exactly what you are talking about. Risk free Cap movement to a cyno on a station.
So.... Some angry Nullbears, a lot of happy other players that risk free cap movement went away, to answer your question.
Edit, oh, and Orca's can use gates also. Who also spawn further off a gate than they do off a WH, so have even longer to burn back. |
|
Jack Hayson
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:48:00 -
[2071] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:It hasn't killed the rest of EVE. It won't kill WH's. Fascinating logic. "Hey, having no local didn't kill wormhole space... let's remove local from k-space! What could possibly go wrong?"
|
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
123
|
Posted - 2014.09.02 23:58:00 -
[2072] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote: Freighters can use gates. Freighters constantly get caught 15km of a gate after jumping through it. Freighters can't instantly jump back.
Did you just seriously try to compare the "risk" of flying a freighter in highsec with jumping a cap through a wormhole? You must be really running low on arguments. Freighters also tend to not need to refit of of each other. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
1495
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 00:06:00 -
[2073] - Quote
No, I pointed out that your post was erroneous, since you tried to use freighters as your example. Also you are aware of the cyno pinball effect I assume, which often happens and is random luck as well. If we want to discuss Cyno's and multiple caps needing to refit off each other.
Basically, you are crying now that it's your personal area of space having mechanics the other area's of space have dealt with for years & years also. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1194
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 00:25:00 -
[2074] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:No, I pointed out that your post was erroneous, since you tried to use freighters as your example. Also you are aware of the cyno pinball effect I assume, which often happens and is random luck as well. If we want to discuss Cyno's and multiple caps needing to refit off each other.
Basically, you are crying now that it's your personal area of space having mechanics the other area's of space have dealt with for years & years also. I really do not want to get into the whole my space is better than yours argument.
Just accept that you do not understand wormhole space, and we will not try to bring wormhole mechanics to Known space.
Your analogy with star gates is so badly flawed. I do not want to be condescending, but everyone else in the mittani's words " is just shaking their heads".
I witnessed an disagreement in a pub a few years ago between two customers who were digger drivers, discussing how if they were in charge, they could get the vulcan bomber that landed in the local airport off the ground, when the pilots were saying it was impossible as the runway was too short.
They claimed that their opinion was important and valuable. Everyone else just pitied them for their ignorance. And shook their heads in disbelief. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
834
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 00:28:00 -
[2075] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Jessica Duranin wrote:Oh dear. Now we have an invasion of clueless nullbears.
Wormholes are NOT stargates! This discussion is not about subcaps that can burn into position within a few seconds. It's a about large and slow moving Caps. When was the last time you jumped a cap through a stargate?
If anything you should compare wormholes with cynos. Imagine you couldn't cyno your Jump Freighter right into docking range of a station and instead had to slowboat 10km before docking.
Freighters can use gates. Freighters constantly get caught 15km of a gate after jumping through it. Freighters can't instantly jump back. Wormholes are not Stargates, you are right one way, but Stargates are Wormholes. Educate yourself on EVE lore. As for Cynos, yes, also artificial Wormholes. And a lot of people have been wanting Cynos to have exactly this kind of slight scatter to stop exactly what you are talking about. Risk free Cap movement to a cyno on a station. So.... Some angry Nullbears, a lot of happy other players that risk free cap movement went away, to answer your question.
Edit, oh, and Orca's can use gates also. Who also spawn further off a gate than they do off a WH, so have even longer to burn back.
Counter argument to all of the above would be that you can, in nullsec and lowsec, cyno all of them to where you need to be with absolute ease. You cannot do that in a wormhole as you must use wormholes to move.
That being said this is all a moot point. The fact of the matter at hand is that in K-space one does not repeatedly need to crash backwards and forwards to a gate unlike in a wormhole.
Arguing (and I mean everyone arguing not just you) that we have this mechanic in null or vice versa is pointless due to the fact that null and J-space are completely seperate areas to live and play in. The mechanics, the meta and the tactics used to fight on a gate are not the same as those used when fighting on a hole.
These new mechanics stop smaller groups from being able to close a hole effectively (if they don't have numbers for the fleet of back up) and it also stops combat rolling as a means to effectively maintain hole control (something that has been a mechanic since the start of wormholes being lived in and fought on).
You don't jump a capital through a gate (you can't) to engage a fleet on the other side, you cyno it in with the back up. Whereas you can and do jump a capital through a hole to engage a fleet on the otherside. Comparing the two this way is like comparing an Orange to a Suspension Bridge. Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
68
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 01:31:00 -
[2076] - Quote
Sounds like we have more virgins giving advice on getting laid. |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
26
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 02:45:00 -
[2077] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote: Why would they not have an orca? It fit's in to a c3, never mind a c4. And building one certainly isn't that hard.
because fozziecare |
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
26
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 02:52:00 -
[2078] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Jessica Duranin wrote:Oh dear. Now we have an invasion of clueless nullbears.
Wormholes are NOT stargates! This discussion is not about subcaps that can burn into position within a few seconds. It's a about large and slow moving Caps. When was the last time you jumped a cap through a stargate?
If anything you should compare wormholes with cynos. Imagine you couldn't cyno your Jump Freighter right into docking range of a station and instead had to slowboat 10km before docking.
Freighters can use gates. Freighters constantly get caught 15km of a gate after jumping through it. Freighters can't instantly jump back. Wormholes are not Stargates, you are right one way, but Stargates are Wormholes. Educate yourself on EVE lore. As for Cynos, yes, also artificial Wormholes. And a lot of people have been wanting Cynos to have exactly this kind of slight scatter to stop exactly what you are talking about. Risk free Cap movement to a cyno on a station. So.... Some angry Nullbears, a lot of happy other players that risk free cap movement went away, to answer your question.
Edit, oh, and Orca's can use gates also. Who also spawn further off a gate than they do off a WH, so have even longer to burn back. 1st lore =/= game balance in any game ever 2nd the only gate based off a wh no longer functions (and hasnt for a veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery long time) |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
272
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 08:37:00 -
[2079] - Quote
Retar Aveymone wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Overall the level between reward and hostility is out of balance at the moment.
In the majority this can be tweaked, particuarly when corbexx has his figures of real income earned in the various hole types and the post hyperion metrics from CCP.
The mass spawn is the outrider here, the core of it is damaging, and that needs pulling until a more suitable replacement is found that does not break the whole cause and effect design of EVE, there's no place in EVE where one should ever get randomly put into a place where the player cannot influence the outcome.
Random disconnects and bugs are bad enough without them being designed into the game. you know you've been posting the same thing about your rage against any randomness in where you wind up for ninety pages without really ever dealing with the reality that every gate in nullsec sticks you randomly on the edge of a large sphere and has for a decade yet somehow we survive Because local. you always jump a scout in first. difference between null and whs is you know in null for 100% certainty that there isnt a single soul in system.
you never, ever, ever know that in wh space.
so tell me again how null gates are like whs. its fascinating to see you display your exact level of intelligence so proudly. |
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 12:22:00 -
[2080] - Quote
Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
|
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
800
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 12:36:00 -
[2081] - Quote
Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
Certainly looking like long term it is going to be cyclic occupation mixed in with power blocs, basically a step towards all that is wrong with nullsec. |
Moloney
Faceless Men
129
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 12:51:00 -
[2082] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
Certainly looking like long term it is going to be cyclic occupation mixed in with power blocs, basically a step towards all that is wrong with nullsec.
Less people / targets in wspace cannot be considered a win by anyone, surely... |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
274
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 13:26:00 -
[2083] - Quote
Moloney wrote:Rroff wrote:Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
Certainly looking like long term it is going to be cyclic occupation mixed in with power blocs, basically a step towards all that is wrong with nullsec. Less people / targets in wspace cannot be considered a win by anyone, surely... not by anyone living (or lived) in wh space sure but we have long since established ccp does not live in wh space.
also one has to wonder how sincere the words were in the dev blog. you know, saying it's coolfor people to live in whs in the first place. its almost like the writrer was *gasp* lying. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
193
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:02:00 -
[2084] - Quote
So it's been a little over 7 days since CCP has posted in this thread, and I think a little over 4 since an ISD confirmed CCP does not and has never lived in wormhole space. Makes me take a real long look at Star Citizen and E:D. |
Galdur Trudaihnel
United System's Commonwealth
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 16:02:00 -
[2085] - Quote
In the words of the great Will Ferrell and I quote , '' I didn't want the mass based spawn! I said it like four times! This expansion is horse $h@t !!!'' |
corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
675
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 18:35:00 -
[2086] - Quote
Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
This is pretty much spot on to what i expect to happen.
Corbexx for CSM 9 - Wormholes deserve better |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1198
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 18:41:00 -
[2087] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
This is pretty much spot on to what i expect to happen.
Yes it is as most of us expected, it really could not have gone any other way. Wormhole space is a "precision" environment, and the tools were anything but, the mass spawn change, on it's own just overwhelms everything, a sledgehammer wildly swinging on a rope when it needed an extra gramme on the balance pendulum at most, because after all, the ONE consistent mechanism in wormhole space is the wormhole itself. How could it end otherwise? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11185
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 18:47:00 -
[2088] - Quote
Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Ahost Gceo
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
201
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 18:49:00 -
[2089] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game. If you can, run some active statistics and see if the amount of jumps in w-space has declined since this update as people have left. Definitely will be interesting to see what destruction you have wrought. I'm a friggin' banana. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1198
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 18:52:00 -
[2090] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game.
Thank you Fozzie, really happy to hear from you, we wish you well with this as your success is our success.
I wont address any issues in reply, we have given you our best, honest, clearest advice and suggestions. Not because we wish for gain, or an easier life, but because we have real concerns, we hope we have been able to help you see that the environment we live in is actually complex in its simplicity. A real work of precision, and that fine work is the way, to improvement and large and powerful features and changes, can just wash it all away.
Thanks again for reading all this. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
|
CCP Fozzie
C C P C C P Alliance
11185
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 18:53:00 -
[2091] - Quote
Ahost Gceo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game. If you can, run some active statistics and see if the amount of jumps in w-space has declined since this update as people have left. Definitely will be interesting to see what destruction you have wrought.
I'm watching all those numbers very carefully. We've also been sharing a lot of stats with the CSM (The CSM in general and Corbexx in particular have been very helpful in working with us to ensure we watch all the right things), and we may be able to put some of them into a blog or something similar for public consumption at some point. Game Designer | Team Five-0 https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
|
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
193
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 19:33:00 -
[2092] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game.
Anyone willing to wager 1b that this *isnt* gonna happen? I swear it isn't a sucker's-bet. |
Stan Primus
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 19:38:00 -
[2093] - Quote
Fozzie, I have respect for you as a developer, but clearly you were wrong about this issue. I don't know how to put it any other way. CCP has a new more agile development cycle, use it. I think I understand what you were trying to do with mass spawn changes but it didn't work. I know that your not a j-space guy but we are, and this change is killing us. Please trust the tread-naught on this. In Eve risk = reward, and you guys took a huge risk with this change. Unfortunately, not all risks pay out, and this one clearly did not have the intended effect. Roll back the change in spawn mechanics completely in the next patch and please work more closely with Corbexx on future changes. |
Naglerr
235MeV Waterboard Comedy Tour
33
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:15:00 -
[2094] - Quote
It's good to see CCP commenting on these feedback threads after a long silence. I was glad to see improvements made on the other Hyperion issues.
On this issue, the fact that there is no data or discussion of the direction on this change leads me to believe that the intention is to keep the change intact in the current form. I hope that the next time CCP Fozzie comments on this thread I'll be proven wrong. |
Petra Hakaari
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
105
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:22:00 -
[2095] - Quote
Naglerr wrote:I hope that the next time CCP Fozzie comments on this thread I'll be proven wrong. Amen bro.
Before i make any judgement and call anyone wrong I'd like to have internet graphs, of those that some of us love so much.
But I'll do dare to say that neither you nor I nor anyone is gonna be wrong... just a tinny (or not, hahah) impression. Because ****-á. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1199
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:34:00 -
[2096] - Quote
Naglerr wrote:It's good to see CCP commenting on these feedback threads after a long silence. I was glad to see improvements made on the other Hyperion issues.
On this issue, the fact that there is no data or discussion of the direction on this change leads me to believe that the intention is to keep the change intact in the current form. I hope that the next time CCP Fozzie comments on this thread I'll be proven wrong. Well, to be fair, he has said that he has had some of the numbers he was waiting on and keeping a very close eye on what they are showing. He is unlikely to keep the mass spawn when he sees that his metrics confirm what we have advised him would happen.
He naturally wants what is best for the game, he is not some dictator who wants to punish his citizens, like any of us he will want to do the best job he can.
One truly cannot expect anyone who has not lived in wormhole space to understand it. It was simply designed with the minimum of mechanics. They were completely unknown and undiscovered. And that was part of their complexity. Naturally if someone thinks that things are stale they try to get back to that. But we have seen them and learned, and fozzie knows we will discover them quickly again.
So he chose random blind luck as the mechanic to make it so we could not discover them.
It makes sense if you do not understand what we have made of it..
He is quite right, we cannot adapt to blind luck, ever.
But if we are just going to be a sacrifice, or a victor, depending on how it plays out, we are totally 100% not interested. Quite simply there is not a single long term wormholer with a gamblers mentality. They Fled, They were exterminated or made extinct here long ago, wormhole space was too dangerous to rely on luck, if you did? It was ALWAYS bad and ended in disaster.
We may go all in bhalls deep, and get completely wiped out, but there is not an iota of gambling involved in that decision, we are pitting ourselves against the likelehood of dying horribly, but our skills will maybe shine through. Maybe.
It is that the mass spawn change, is just a completely hateful concept to us, we live or die by our skills, our tactics, our abilities, our control or lack of the battlespace.
We just will not ever accept that our victories or losses if decided by luck, are meaningful in any way. And without that there is absolutely no reason to be here.
We make our own destiny, there is no fate but the fate we make for ourselves.
We are not the sort of people in game or real life willing to surrender our future to chance.
That is why, no matter how often we are told by someone who has our best interests at heart, that it is good for us, we still will never accept it.
It is not a matter of a battle of wills, it is asking us to be different people at the deepest level. This just cannot be. And that is doomed to make for disappointment, and is not ending well. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
ULSTER MAN
Fudge-Packers
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 20:38:00 -
[2097] - Quote
Thank you ccp
We rolled into a large corp (220) Members we had no other wormholes in our system. We could not close it due to them camping us in with a fleet of 8 guys (we have 3).
Normally in this situation we would close and find another hole that more matched our numbers/play style. 24 hours before this hole closes !!!
We all logged off to play other games cus we could not do anything.
Thank you CCP for creating more traffic to other games.
Not happy
|
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know Unsettled.
192
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 21:57:00 -
[2098] - Quote
ULSTER MAN wrote:Thank you ccp
We rolled into a large corp . we had no other wormholes in our system. We could not close it due to them camping us in with a fleet of 8 guys (we have 3).
Normally in this situation we would close and find another hole that more matched our numbers. 24 hours before this hole closes !!!
OK OK I exaggerate about to guys camping us but they did have more than us :D We all logged off to play other games cus we could not do anything.
Thank you CCP for creating more traffic to other games.
Not happy
I recommend checking out threads in Warfare and Tactics sub that deal with fits that let you fight outnumbered. Like this: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=296524
~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/ |
Seraph Essael
Devils Diciples League of Infamy
841
|
Posted - 2014.09.03 23:55:00 -
[2099] - Quote
ULSTER MAN wrote:Thank you ccp
We rolled into a large corp . we had no other wormholes in our system. We could not close it due to them camping us in with a fleet of 8 guys/ships (we have 3).
Normally in this situation we would close and find another hole that more matched our numbers. 24 hours before this hole closes !!!
OK OK I exaggerate about to guys camping us but they did have more than us and I am just trying to make a point :D We all logged off to play other games cus we could not do anything.
Thank you CCP for creating more traffic to other games.
Not happy There is plenty you could do. As stated above me, fight them outnumbered or even next time ask them for a mutual fight. Say for example a three on three. They may even have let you roll the hole after. You could even have used bombers to harass them with bombs.
There are far more options that just "**** we need to run away and hide" or "let's log off and play other games". Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person." |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
579
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 00:22:00 -
[2100] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game. At least he has a good sense of humor.
Cheered me up a bit.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
|
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 02:14:00 -
[2101] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:So it's been a little over 7 days since CCP has posted in this thread, and I think a little over 4 since an ISD confirmed CCP does not and has never lived in wormhole space. Makes me take a real long look at Star Citizen and E:D.
we already have a corp set up in star citizen..look up The Kairos Syndicate Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3424
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 03:50:00 -
[2102] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
This is pretty much spot on to what i expect to happen.
It is interesting that 12 minutes after you, a CSM rep, and someone that knows wh mechanics backwards and forwards, posts that this is a stupid idea and the ramifications are playing out as predicted, the dev responsible for this goes into full damage control.
We all know that the dev in question NEVER backs out a change he makes, because he knows all aspects of the game, even ones he has never played, better than any lowly player. It will be very interesting to see what he does to mitigate the damage he has wrought, or if his hubris will yet again overcome common sense and he does nothing, but say "yeah, we are listening to your concerns." |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3424
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 03:55:00 -
[2103] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:So it's been a little over 7 days since CCP has posted in this thread, and I think a little over 4 since an ISD confirmed CCP does not and has never lived in wormhole space. Makes me take a real long look at Star Citizen and E:D. we already have a corp set up in star citizen..look up The Kairos Syndicate
Every day, I pray that Star Citizen is not vapourware. SC is a real double-edged sword in my opinion.
From one perspective, if it actually comes it comes to fruition, it will be the competition that CCP needs to actually look hard at the direction of Eve, and maybe, just maybe, right the ship.
On the other hand, SC might be too successful, and take so many subs fthat Eve actually falls below some critical mass and the game dies. That, for me, is a terrible thing. |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2205
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 06:14:00 -
[2104] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Gunner GzR wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:So it's been a little over 7 days since CCP has posted in this thread, and I think a little over 4 since an ISD confirmed CCP does not and has never lived in wormhole space. Makes me take a real long look at Star Citizen and E:D. we already have a corp set up in star citizen..look up The Kairos Syndicate Every day, I pray that Star Citizen is not vapourware. SC is a real double-edged sword in my opinion. From one perspective, if it actually comes it comes to fruition, it will be the competition that CCP needs to actually look hard at the direction of Eve, and maybe, just maybe, right the ship. On the other hand, SC might be too successful, and take so many subs fthat Eve actually falls below some critical mass and the game dies. That, for me, is a terrible thing.
Yeah I'm pretty sure CCP is looking at SC with envy at the way they're scamming money out of people.
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
111
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 06:20:00 -
[2105] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game.
Fozzie lets cut the bull: CCP has very successfully ignored the hundreds of pages of posts on topic and responded only with insulting platitudes. Deleting hundreds of posts and only posting after the CSM says you're killing wspace does not mean you're not ignoring the thread.
CCP has failed to explain to the player-base what metrics matter, how you expect those metrics to change with mass-based spawn distance, and why those metrics needed to change. Continued failure to effectively communicate with the player-base will result in continued loss of confidence in CCP and massive frustration from the wormhole community.
Beyond that I'd encourage you to go speak with CCP Greyscale about how he's conducted the industry changes. Greyscale has admirably taken player feedback, explained why certain characteristics are preferable, and not ignored feedback pages for weeks on end. He's bumped release dates and heavily modified plans after communicating with the player base. I believe his actions are a large part of why the industry update has gone relatively well and has been accepted by the industry community.
The wormhole community appreciates the work you've done with balancing ships and AT. However, you're continuing to bungle wormhole changes and I believe you can do better. James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
140
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 08:02:00 -
[2106] - Quote
Fozzie, thanks for posting. Your post is way late, but appreciated nonetheless. We felt completely ignored by your lack of replies, a lot of forum rage ensued as a consequence.
Your change completely killed W-space for me personally, and as tons of other posters say in this and other threads, Im apparently not the only one...
The only thing remaining for me is to put thrust in you and your team. I want to have faith that you indeed monitor wh activity as you say(PvP kills, NPC kills, WH jumps, and probably most importantly accounts active and playing !!! )
You have access to the data, we dont. If you come to the conclusion that your change made w-space more attractive and turns out to be an improvement, then please let us know by stating this and back it up with data!!. So those (like me) who hate this change at least can try to understand why it needed to be done for the greater good of the game. I can then leave w-space and say, well its not for me anymore, but I understand the reason for the change. That would feel a lot better than completely not being able to grasp how you could come in here, ruin this aspect of the game for small corps entirely and thats it.
If however it turns out, as the vast majority of the wh community predicted and feared (and I am part of the w-space community, even though I always post with my NS main who has nothing to do with w-space), please do NOT be too proud to admit a mistake and take back the change. Please. Please.
Forum rage and trying to persuade you became pointless, as the last 100 pages of this thread have shown, so I will lean back and I will put faith in you that you will do what needs to be done.
so long Enthropic |
Zappity
SUPREME MATHEMATICS
1318
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 08:04:00 -
[2107] - Quote
I wonder how many people are speculating on nanoribbons right now. Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec. |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
134
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 09:16:00 -
[2108] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:
You have access to the data, we dont. If you come to the conclusion that your change made w-space more attractive and turns out to be an improvement, then please let us know by stating this and back it up with data!!. So those (like me) who hate this change at least can try to understand why it needed to be done for the greater good of the game. I can then leave w-space and say, well its not for me anymore, but I understand the reason for the change.
What about if CCP found that most of the ISK made in WH was in fact feeding alts in other area of the game, like yours, and possibly with enough ISk making to buy enough PLEx with ISk and not have to sub, thus contributing to the rise of PLEX prices for everyone, and a cash flow reduction for CCP?
This is just an hypothesis, but it shows there are a few cases of data where CCP would have absolutely no reason to share their findings outside of their company, and I have a feeling that these WH changes are also driven by strong undercurrents that have grown out of easily farming resources that should have been very dangerous to farm.
This would also explain the self proclamed "majority" reaction on these forums, drapping themselves in the protection of the smallest (lol) so as to continue making huge amount of ISK in totally closed off systems....
As a member of the smallest corp, I do like the changes made to WH in Hyperion. I have already had a few encounters around collapsers that I could not have had before Hyperion. If anything, I would have preferred the mass distance to be slightly farther than it really is now...
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
651
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 09:51:00 -
[2109] - Quote
Significant change always meets strong resistance from the vested special interests. The amount of whining and complaints is quite meaningless. There is nothing meaningful Fozzie can say now, all that matters are the metrics. And not those from one day or one week after the change... maybe in one month there is enough meaningful data to assess how well the changes worked, or didn't work.
Personally, I like how people can now die close to hisec wormholes, so close to and yet so far from safety. And it's not just luck; as with most things in EVE, the stupid and careless die where others would have survived. Like that hauler pilot who was smart enough to fit a full tank complete with DC and bulkheads, but not smart enough to also add a prop mod which would have carried him back to the hole in time ^^ . |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
276
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:04:00 -
[2110] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Enthropic wrote:
You have access to the data, we dont. If you come to the conclusion that your change made w-space more attractive and turns out to be an improvement, then please let us know by stating this and back it up with data!!. So those (like me) who hate this change at least can try to understand why it needed to be done for the greater good of the game. I can then leave w-space and say, well its not for me anymore, but I understand the reason for the change.
What about if CCP found that most of the ISK made in WH was in fact feeding alts in other area of the game, like yours, and possibly with enough ISk making to buy enough PLEx with ISk and not have to sub, thus contributing to the rise of PLEX prices for everyone, and a cash flow reduction for CCP? This is just an hypothesis, but it shows there are a few cases of data where CCP would have absolutely no reason to share their findings outside of their company, and I have a feeling that these WH changes are also driven by strong undercurrents that have grown out of easily farming resources that should have been very dangerous to farm. This would also explain the self proclamed "majority" reaction on these forums, drapping themselves in the protection of the smallest (lol) so as to continue making huge amount of ISK in totally closed off systems.... As a member of the smallest corp, I do like the changes made to WH in Hyperion. I have already had a few encounters around collapsers that I could not have had before Hyperion. If anything, I would have preferred the mass distance to be slightly farther than it really is now... you are rumormongering based on no data and faulty logic. post reported as such. |
|
Papa Django
CosmoTeK LTD La Division Bleue
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:05:00 -
[2111] - Quote
Saisin wrote: What about if CCP found that most of the ISK made in WH was in fact feeding alts in other area of the game, like yours, and possibly with enough ISk making to buy enough PLEx with ISk and not have to sub, thus contributing to the rise of PLEX prices for everyone, and a cash flow reduction for CCP?
This is just an hypothesis, but it shows there are a few cases of data where CCP would have absolutely no reason to share their findings outside of their company, and I have a feeling that these WH changes are also driven by strong undercurrents that have grown out of easily farming resources that should have been very dangerous to farm.
If the mass-jump changes is to reduce the isk amount farmed in C5/C6 hole it is an epic fail. Hyperion doesn't affect C5/C6 large corps. It simply remove the ability to farm for small corps.
Saisin wrote: As a member of the smallest corp, I do like the changes made to WH in Hyperion. I have already had a few encounters around collapsers that I could not have had before Hyperion. If anything, I would have preferred the mass distance to be slightly farther than it really is now...
And how do you make your isk now with your small corp ? |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
140
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:34:00 -
[2112] - Quote
nice try, troll. Im not commenting on your statements, no offense, but you have no clue what you are talking about.
Terrorfrodo wrote:Significant change always meets strong resistance from the vested special interests. The amount of whining and complaints is quite meaningless. There is nothing meaningful Fozzie can say now, all that matters are the metrics. And not those from one day or one week after the change... maybe in one month there is enough meaningful data to assess how well the changes worked, or didn't work.
Personally, I like how people can now die close to hisec wormholes, so close to and yet so far from safety. And it's not just luck; as with most things in EVE, the stupid and careless die where others would have survived. Like that hauler pilot who was smart enough to fit a full tank complete with DC and bulkheads, but not smart enough to also add a prop mod which would have carried him back to the hole in time ^^
I actually agree with you, that is what I tried to say in my post above. The metrics is what will matter, and the more time for data collection, the more meaningful the metrics will get. However, leaving the situation unresolved like this, will, and Im speculating, drive many people out of wh space for good (once you moved out, youre out, its so much a hassle to get set up again).. but Im sure CCP knows this.
About your comment on HS WH, I completely agree. For this, and only this scenario, I agree. However, with the exception of HS holes, what remains since Hyperion is that closing holes when you roll into any sort of larger force (or they into you) now got changed into a luck-based suicide scenario. Essentially this means that any corp smaller than the opposing force only have one single option, which is log out and wait 24 hours.
And as one of the posters above me, I also would like to know from the people who love this change, how you make money now in a small corp? Run incursions on alts to fund your WH 'PvP' ? |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
651
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 10:52:00 -
[2113] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:However, leaving the situation unresolved like this, will, and Im speculating, drive many people out of wh space for good (once you moved out, youre out, its so much a hassle to get set up again).. This is so not true. If it were true, everyone who got bombed out of wspace once by superior meanies would never come back. Well, I got bombed out once or twice, a long time ago. And I have changed my wspace home voluntarily at least a dozen times, with small or big corps or just by myself because of changing corp, five ships or five dozen or five hundred ships, with my capitals or without them. Dude, if one move, and one that is not even forced and where you probably don't lose your stuff, is enough to make you leave wspace 'for good', then I don't really know what to say to that.
Honestly, if all the whiners are right and wspace will be deserted to a man next month, CCP can always just double or triple sleeper loot values and twice the number of people will be back in wspace within one week. . |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
141
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 11:01:00 -
[2114] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Enthropic wrote:However, leaving the situation unresolved like this, will, and Im speculating, drive many people out of wh space for good (once you moved out, youre out, its so much a hassle to get set up again).. This is so not true. If it were true, everyone who got bombed out of wspace once by superior meanies would never come back. Well, I got bombed out once or twice, a long time ago. And I have changed my wspace home voluntarily at least a dozen times, with small or big corps or just by myself because of changing corp, five ships or five dozen or five hundred ships, with my capitals or without them. Dude, if one move, and one that is not even forced and where you probably don't lose your stuff, is enough to make you leave wspace 'for good', then I don't really know what to say to that. Honestly, if all the whiners are right and wspace will be deserted to a man next month, CCP can always just double or triple sleeper loot values and twice the number of people will be back in wspace within one week.
maybe youre right and I was exaggerating. Its not the point though. The impression I got from talking to people and reading the forums was that many are pissed and simply are bored now because a connection to a hostile system with superior numbers means spinning ships or log off. WHs in their systems build up since they cant close them anymore, rinse repeat, spin ships and log off.
If that is the case, and Im aware that probably for you it isnt, yet you cant argue that this might make people think f..k this and leave for another game, is what I was trying to get at. Anyway, its not the point, I said what I wanted to say in my original post, done with this thread bye :P |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
76
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 11:04:00 -
[2115] - Quote
Double blue loot values would make me consider it. Maybe.
Triple blue loot values would be enough incentive to move some things back and not completely shut down, with very close attention to any "little things" that get changed as a counter balance, and might make even that not worth it.
This is for a C3. Since mining will never ever ever happen, so that income source is now zero. C3 gas is not worth the time it takes to spawn and kill the rats. Nano's are in the toilet, so blue loot is the only thing left worth anything, and currently is not anywhere close to enough in a C3.
Losses under current conditions will much more frequent, even with as much vigilance as possible. And one does not kill sleepers with 20 million isk cruiser hulls... |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
651
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 11:46:00 -
[2116] - Quote
I'm quite sure others will be happy to take over your c3 if 100m per anom is still too low for Your Majesty ^^
C3 anoms are easily run in under 10 minutes using two ships with a combined value of <250m, so the risk is quite manageable. . |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
76
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 12:24:00 -
[2117] - Quote
On what game do you get 100 million per C3 anom? Last several months, average is about 35 million in blue loot plus salvage. In and around 40 million per site, goes up a little if certain sites spawn, but long term average is just over 40 million for a long time now.
And ten minutes per site..... plus run to market, and back with more ammo. Plus system scan and posting up gaurds, Plus the 4 or 5 days a week when there are too many crossholes, some of which we cannot collapse, and quite a few others that would result in catastrophic loss if you try to collapse them.
Ten minutes per 100 million isk is not even remotely correct. More like an order of magnitude higher than that.
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
651
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 12:39:00 -
[2118] - Quote
100m was for the hypothetical doubling. But yeah, sites are probably more like 40m nowadays. When I farmed C3s a few years back, it was still 45-50m.
The way I did it I didn't need ammo. Run to market doesn't count, because you can hoard your stuff indefinitely and just sell when you are going to Jita anyway for other reasons.
Ofc a lot of time goes into scanning and scouting first, as always in wspace. But the more sites you can run in one go, the less your average is dragged down by the preparations. I used to make about 1-1.5b solo in one long session (4-5 hours) on a good day.
Now of course, under the new rules, there would be occasional losses, but if the loot values doubled, that would more than make up for it. . |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
95
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 12:57:00 -
[2119] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:[quote=Enthropic]Honestly, if all the whiners are right and wspace will be deserted to a man next month, CCP can always just double or triple sleeper loot values and twice the number of people will be back in wspace within one week.
No they can-¦t since nonblueloot is marketdriven and introducing new demand for it isn-¦t something you "just" do. If you double blueloot it makes it even more ridiculous for the c6 farmers who already have the lowest risk. |
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:00:00 -
[2120] - Quote
If CCP purely wanted to lower income from wormholes then all they had to do was to lower the sell price of blue loot. This change (as I see it) was to increase pvp and decrease isolation. However I dont believe that they have sufficiently analysed how this will affect players with PVE orientation and T3 production.
Wormhole income (barring large corps purely running farmed cap escalations) is pretty average. You can make more in 0.0 space running plexes/sanctums and/or farming rats.
Now they have increased risk without improving or increasing content. I dont know if people will be happy with the lowered level of income, my opinion is that this will lead to people going to more profitable areas of the game. Having to spend an hour closing out wormholes simply so you can start making isk is making this game boring. (Or logging on to find you just cant close them and might as well log out and do something else)
|
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Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
651
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:01:00 -
[2121] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:
No they can-¦t since nonblueloot is marketdriven and introducing new demand for it isn-¦t something you "just" do. If you double blueloot it makes it even more ridiculous for the c6 farmers who already have the lowest risk.
So what? Just change the number of blue loot items dropped in certain sites (double in c3 sites but leave unaltered in c6). I don't think something like that will actually happen, but it could easily be done in one day if they wanted to. . |
ImNotAnAlt Lazair
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:03:00 -
[2122] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ahost Gceo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game. If you can, run some active statistics and see if the amount of jumps in w-space has declined since this update as people have left. Definitely will be interesting to see what destruction you have wrought. I'm watching all those numbers very carefully. We've also been sharing a lot of stats with the CSM (The CSM in general and Corbexx in particular have been very helpful in working with us to ensure we watch all the right things), and we may be able to put some of them into a blog or something similar for public consumption at some point.
Hello :)
Watching the numbers while people are moving out wont give you an accurate picture of whats going on in wh space. As stated multiple times in this thread the smaller corporations are taking a large hit from the current change due to not being able to collapse holes that lead into larger entities wh. The new mechanics for jumping wormholes and applying distance depending on the ships mass is interesting and have the potential to be a very good change. Personally I would like to have this change reversed as suggested in this thread, so larger ships spawning closer to the hole and smaller further away. I am hoping that the change will at least be balanced out or compensated for smaller corporations so we can continue to live in wormhole space.
as always fly with safety red and engage all the moving things! |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
77
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:05:00 -
[2123] - Quote
And of course if we ask for triple, ( mining being worth zero, gas might as well be zero), we might actually get.. 10%? Maybe?
There may have been some facetiousness in the prior post.
Ship costs have also risen substantially in the last year. Indy changes certainly have not brought them down.
However, if the pvp oriented want lots of targets...... there needs to be a reason for there to be lots of targets. Currently that reason does not exist. Especially in the lower class wormholes. Go run a few C1 or C2 sites in the next week or two. Those guys don't even bother half the time. If income versus class was to scale , C1 through C3 would need a fairly significant bump to equal escalations in the higher classes. Arguably there is just as much risk in a C1 as there is in a C5, possibly more risk, since a lot of the lower class holes have hi sec daytrippers, etc. Yes the ships are a lot cheaper in a C1 in that example. But getting blown up and podded out sucks no matter who you are.
Something about attracting new players............ and keeping them. Without having them all be miners and mission runners. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
652
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:09:00 -
[2124] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote:However, if the pvp oriented want lots of targets...... there needs to be a reason for there to be lots of targets. Currently that reason does not exist. Especially in the lower class wormholes. Go run a few C1 or C2 sites in the next week or two. Those guys don't even bother half the time. If income versus class was to scale , C1 through C3 would need a fairly significant bump to equal escalations in the higher classes. Arguably there is just as much risk in a C1 as there is in a C5, possibly more risk, since a lot of the lower class holes have hi sec daytrippers, etc. Yes the ships are a lot cheaper in a C1 in that example. But getting blown up and podded out sucks no matter who you are. I completely agree. I would love to see yield from c1/2 buffed significantly, so I can find more targets there again that I can engage solo. And maybe even run a few sites myself at other times. . |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
77
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:18:00 -
[2125] - Quote
Reasoned discussion resulting in something we can agree on.
I need a minute to get back up off the floor lol!
But ya, see how easily we thought of a possible idea that would increase activity, new player retention, and content in general? One that would not be gamebreaking for a large part of a particular Eve community?
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
276
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 13:42:00 -
[2126] - Quote
CCP has two main problems, both of their own making.
the first is the horrendous lack of communication over the last month+ starting with people stumbling over the changes on sisi by accident through to multiple threads locked or even deleted, even official ones, to being shunted round from one thread to anothet. not to mention passive aggressive posts from devs.
then we get to the real issue and I think why there is so much discussion for the real reason for the change. the devblog did actually say why these changes were being made. but when the wh community said that these changes will not in any way accomplish those goals we were ignored for a month. we were/are right because we have/are you know, actually living there so we are confused.
if you have a goal and near enough 90% of the 2k+ posts tells you you will not accomplish these goals, why implement the change anyways? Hubris? Pride? Incompetence? Dont give a ****? lying about the stated goals?
thats why we think that you dont want people living in whs, or want to nerf wh income, or are just following nullsec wishes(they seem happy enough about this) or you just plain hate wormholers.
but whatever. pretty soon it wont have anthing to do with me. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
579
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 14:00:00 -
[2127] - Quote
Quote:but whatever. pretty soon it wont have anthing to do with me.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1202
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 14:00:00 -
[2128] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:corbexx wrote:Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
This is pretty much spot on to what i expect to happen. It is interesting that 12 minutes after you, a CSM rep, and someone that knows wh mechanics backwards and forwards, posts that this is a stupid idea and the ramifications are playing out as predicted, the dev responsible for this goes into full damage control. We all know that the dev in question NEVER backs out a change he makes, because he knows all aspects of the game, even ones he has never played, better than any lowly player. It will be very interesting to see what he does to mitigate the damage he has wrought, or if his hubris will yet again overcome common sense and he does nothing, but say "yeah, we are listening to your concerns."
Please do not turn this into "us VS them, if Fozzie discovers that the idea has not worked out the way he hoped, welcome the realisation, and that he has understood.
There is NO value in driving someone into a corner where whatever he does is a loss.
There can be no misunderstanding, of the players views, and the metrics will make things even clearer.
He clearly wanted the best result, if it is not this time, well there is always tomorrow.
But to Fozzie, please roll this one away, and most of the WH residents will thank you for that. And we all move forward in the same direction, together. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 14:01:00 -
[2129] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:CCP has two main problems, both of their own making.
the first is the horrendous lack of communication over the last month+ starting with people stumbling over the changes on sisi by accident through to multiple threads locked or even deleted, even official ones, to being shunted round from one thread to anothet. not to mention passive aggressive posts from devs.
then we get to the real issue and I think why there is so much discussion for the real reason for the change. the devblog did actually say why these changes were being made. but when the wh community said that these changes will not in any way accomplish those goals we were ignored for a month. we were/are right because we have/are you know, actually living there so we are confused.
if you have a goal and near enough 90% of the 2k+ posts tells you you will not accomplish these goals, why implement the change anyways? Hubris? Pride? Incompetence? Dont give a ****? lying about the stated goals?
thats why we think that you dont want people living in whs, or want to nerf wh income, or are just following nullsec wishes(they seem happy enough about this) or you just plain hate wormholers.
but whatever. pretty soon it wont have anthing to do with me.
Very good post
which is a lot of the questions we are asking amongst ourselves.
I also believe that the lack of communication and stats are fueling them mob's anger..,
SHOW US STATS ..DATA/GRAPHS CCP...GIVE US INTEL
NOT JUST POST THAT YES WE ARE WATCHING.
This Gives us nothing to look over and analyze ourselves. Our corp participation is slowly Fading and its due to frustration with the game and you ccp. Yes i said you because of the lack of info and the feeling that we were just flat ignored on our input.. Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
OMEGA REDUX
Forever Winter Absolute Zero.
30
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 14:45:00 -
[2130] - Quote
No one is going to giving you stats this early into a patch so quit asking for them like it's going to happen. Corbexx might get some him being CSM and all that but the rest of us need to ask for something realistic if you want numbers. |
|
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
134
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:29:00 -
[2131] - Quote
.Saisin wrote: As a member of the smallest corp, I do like the changes made to WH in Hyperion. I have already had a few encounters around collapsers that I could not have had before Hyperion. If anything, I would have preferred the mass distance to be slightly farther than it really is now...
And how do you make your isk now with your small corp ?[/quote]
Like I mentioned in a previous post, I am in a C3 and continue to make my ISK there. I certainly have changed a few things in my fleet, but nothing majo.or.. Truly, collapsing and farming anomalies before Hyperion was way to easy to do...
I Have not lost a ship yet but I certainly had more encounters since the last release, and I do like that "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
72
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 17:57:00 -
[2132] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Papa Django wrote:Saisin wrote: As a member of the smallest corp, I do like the changes made to WH in Hyperion. I have already had a few encounters around collapsers that I could not have had before Hyperion. If anything, I would have preferred the mass distance to be slightly farther than it really is now...
And how do you make your isk now with your small corp ? Like I mentioned in a previous post, I am in a C3 and continue to make my ISK there. I certainly have changed a few things in my fleet, but nothing major.. Truly, collapsing and farming anomalies before Hyperion was way to easy to do... I have not lost a ship yet but I certainly had more encounters since the last release, and I do like that...
Sure thing Mr forum posting alt |
Moloney
Faceless Men
131
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 20:21:00 -
[2133] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
This is pretty much spot on to what i expect to happen.
So CCP s idea of increasing the reward is kick everyone out until nanoribons go back up!?
Can this be applied to null sec please?
|
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
115
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:27:00 -
[2134] - Quote
Moloney wrote:corbexx wrote:Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
This is pretty much spot on to what i expect to happen. So CCP s idea of increasing the reward is kick everyone out until nanoribons go back up!? Can this be applied to null sec please?
See the 2010 Sanctum nerf.
James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org |
Winthorp
2681
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:41:00 -
[2135] - Quote
You know people are angry when Autumnwind starts posting in threads. |
CivilWars
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
145
|
Posted - 2014.09.04 21:45:00 -
[2136] - Quote
Yeah, nerf Tech...oh wait, they did, and people still live in null sec. We Re-Rolled. Stop by public channel Rolled Out to join the fun. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
274
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 03:42:00 -
[2137] - Quote
Not too sure why peeps are complaining. This change has caused us a very little amount problems. A little more a of pain to roll... but meh, nothing we wormholers cant overcome! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 08:16:00 -
[2138] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Saisin wrote:Papa Django wrote:Saisin wrote: As a member of the smallest corp, I do like the changes made to WH in Hyperion. I have already had a few encounters around collapsers that I could not have had before Hyperion. If anything, I would have preferred the mass distance to be slightly farther than it really is now...
And how do you make your isk now with your small corp ? Like I mentioned in a previous post, I am in a C3 and continue to make my ISK there. I certainly have changed a few things in my fleet, but nothing major.. Truly, collapsing and farming anomalies before Hyperion was way to easy to do... I have not lost a ship yet but I certainly had more encounters since the last release, and I do like that... Sure thing Mr forum posting alt
At this point if a NPC alt posts for the change, then I am inclined to listen to this post because we who are against the change have made it quite hostile against those who are for the change. So in an effort to save face they use an alt so they don't get hunted down and brutally murdered.
But all that said USE YOUR MAIN it gives you credibility, we are WHers not Nullblocs we wont hell purge you just for having a different opinion So Much Space |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
51
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 08:21:00 -
[2139] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Not too sure why peeps are complaining. This change has caused us a very little amount problems. A little more a of pain to roll... but meh, nothing we wormholers cant overcome!
Yes we WHers will overcome it but the ones who cant?
W-space is now at risk of being deserted save for the few who can live in it. We will adapt but now where will the content be? Already our corp gets most of its PvP content from hunting in null because (Even with a WH chain that's 50 whs deep) we cant get PvP due to the lack of people in W-space
So Much Space |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
284
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 09:30:00 -
[2140] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Not too sure why peeps are complaining. This change has caused us a very little amount problems. A little more a of pain to roll... but meh, nothing we wormholers cant overcome! Yes we WHers will overcome it but the ones who cant? W-space is now at risk of being deserted save for the few who can live in it. We will adapt but now where will the content be? Already our corp gets most of its PvP content from hunting in null because (Even with a WH chain that's 50 whs deep) we cant get PvP due to the lack of people in W-space You got a point there. its all fine and dandy saying 'were the baddest mofos in wh space' but when there's no content because you are also the ONLY mofos in wh space then what is the point? you get more and more consistant small gang pvp in low. if you know who not to shoot you wont get hot dropped too often and you can make as much or more isk with less stress and risk in hs incurtions and you just need one alt for that.
end of the day you can be pro-change all you want and call everyone else whatever names you want. if people decided its not worth it to live in wh space anymore then that's it. wh space had a very fragile ecosystem, prone to failcascades implosions, politics, drama, etc. but it survived for years. That's mostly gone now.
A very unique part of eve, heck of online gaming is probably gone forever. and if you dont think that's a damn shame then maybe you were in wh space for the wrong reasons. |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1204
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 09:47:00 -
[2141] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Andiedeath wrote:Not too sure why peeps are complaining. This change has caused us a very little amount problems. A little more a of pain to roll... but meh, nothing we wormholers cant overcome! Yes we WHers will overcome it but the ones who cant? W-space is now at risk of being deserted save for the few who can live in it. We will adapt but now where will the content be? Already our corp gets most of its PvP content from hunting in null because (Even with a WH chain that's 50 whs deep) we cant get PvP due to the lack of people in W-space You got a point there. its all fine and dandy saying 'were the baddest mofos in wh space' but when there's no content because you are also the ONLY mofos in wh space then what is the point? you get more and more consistant small gang pvp in low. if you know who not to shoot you wont get hot dropped too often and you can make as much or more isk with less stress and risk in hs incurtions and you just need one alt for that. end of the day you can be pro-change all you want and call everyone else whatever names you want. if people decided its not worth it to live in wh space anymore then that's it. wh space had a very fragile ecosystem, prone to failcascades implosions, politics, drama, etc. but it survived for years. That's mostly gone now. A very unique part of eve, heck of online gaming is probably gone forever. and if you dont think that's a damn shame then maybe you were in wh space for the wrong reasons.
Nicely put, as to the adapt or die philosophy, lots of people in the real world do exactly this too, because they have to.
They live in places called slums and favelas.
So, to those who say this, please tell me how turning our home into a slum is a positive experience?
We have one massive advantage over those condemned to live out their life in such conditions, we can move out.
Out of the slum, and if we don't like it there, out of the game altogether.
Roll back the Mass spawn, and the rest can find it's place. It is like disease, remove it and you do not get a paradise overnight, but it becomes less of a nightmare to live in.
Without? Good luck trying to somehow force players to remain, let alone trying to encourage more in.
You do not cure acne by giving the patient smallpox.
Whilst it certainly makes life more interesting, "may you live in interesting times" is generally regarded as a curse, it is not the "interesting" you were hoping to achieve. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Moloney
Faceless Men
131
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 11:20:00 -
[2142] - Quote
Some will adapt. Most will leave.
In the end it's still a change that does not provide anything and is not wanted.
No content & no isk for excessive risk = Poor formula for retaining players. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
276
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 11:27:00 -
[2143] - Quote
LOL! No i'm already seeing PVP groups move into wormholes from K Space... I don't think there will be a problem. We have been out of our oriiginal Class 2 WH for a week and already a small PVP group from K Space wants to buy it. Yes it will take a few weeks although things to settle but I reckon it will be all good soon. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
185
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 12:22:00 -
[2144] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:LOL! No i'm already seeing PVP groups move into wormholes from K Space... I don't think there will be a problem. We have been out of our oriiginal Class 2 WH for a week and already a small PVP group from K Space wants to buy it. Yes it will take a few weeks although things to settle but I reckon it will be all good soon.
Oh yeah? So which change exactly made them decide to move in? |
Petra Hakaari
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
107
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 14:25:00 -
[2145] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:LOL! No i'm already seeing PVP groups move into wormholes from K Space... I don't think there will be a problem. We have been out of our oriiginal Class 2 WH for a week and already a small PVP group from K Space wants to buy it. Yes it will take a few weeks although things to settle but I reckon it will be all good soon. Lemme guess... C2 with a static to highsec.
Dude you clearly don't understand that the issue affects the real WH business, C5/C6... Because tities . |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1206
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 14:26:00 -
[2146] - Quote
Petra Hakaari wrote:Andiedeath wrote:LOL! No i'm already seeing PVP groups move into wormholes from K Space... I don't think there will be a problem. We have been out of our oriiginal Class 2 WH for a week and already a small PVP group from K Space wants to buy it. Yes it will take a few weeks although things to settle but I reckon it will be all good soon. Lemme guess... C2 with a static to highsec. Dude you clearly don't understand that the issue affects the real WH business, C5/C6...
Well maybe they like playing station games on the HS?
Whenever there is a disaster, theres always someone to pull something out of the wreckage, and they are happy with the smallest personal gain. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
286
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 14:59:00 -
[2147] - Quote
Heh...
So there's this webcomic I read and the last two pages of it (1011 and 1012) seemed rather pertinent.
http://mysticrevolution.keenspot.com/?cid=1011
Heck, even the speech the chick in the last frame on the linked page gives fits so well it's hilarious. |
Ahost Gceo
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
204
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 15:18:00 -
[2148] - Quote
I have seen multiple people make this change about increased risk, however I'd like to break it down further and say that this change has brought about increased "effort". Rolling holes to find pew or a new chain now takes much longer. With small corps seeing that now things have gotten harder in terms of "effort" to simply make it worth their while in the great equation of (time investment vs reward), it is harder to find prey.
And CCP, that's really what people are complaining about. The game already has a high base time investment vs reward ratio, and you just went and quadrupled it for one entire chunk of space. I'm a friggin' banana. |
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
135
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 16:51:00 -
[2149] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:
At this point if a NPC alt posts for the change, then I am inclined to listen to this post because we who are against the change have made it quite hostile against those who are for the change. So in an effort to save face they use an alt so they don't get hunted down and brutally murdered.
But all that said USE YOUR MAIN it gives you credibility, we are WHers not Nullblocs we wont hell purge you just for having a different opinion
I posted as an alt before this issue, and I wish I could believe everyone could harbor such honorable intents, but unfortunately I know first hand that others do not have such qualms about hunting someone for their posted opinion. As such, alt posting is one of the survival mechanism for us solo players that want to express their opinions.
I can say that the changes from Hyperion have slowed down my anomaly farming a bit... not because of the mass jump, though, because I rarely did collapse my WH previously, but the change to loading the k162 when jumping and having more wh in general are the main reasons. I had to make my farming ships more nimble, and thus I am not dishing out as much DPS as before Hyperion. This is no complaints mind you, I always thought that farming in WH before Hyperion was way too easy...
I can still farm and salvage three C3 anomalies in one hour, for around 120 millions ISK, where I used to do 4 or sometime even 5 with my full crew when my static was not loaded. These past three weeks it has been rarer to have only my static, so part of my crew has to scout instead of farming.
I would say I may be making 20% less than before, so around 800 millions/week instead of 1 billion previously The mass change certainly has offered me a few more opportunities to engage other wormholes, so this is good in my books.
"surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 17:44:00 -
[2150] - Quote
Saisin wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:
At this point if a NPC alt posts for the change, then I am inclined to listen to this post because we who are against the change have made it quite hostile against those who are for the change. So in an effort to save face they use an alt so they don't get hunted down and brutally murdered.
But all that said USE YOUR MAIN it gives you credibility, we are WHers not Nullblocs we wont hell purge you just for having a different opinion
I posted as an alt before this issue, and I wish I could believe everyone could harbor such honorable intents, but unfortunately I know first hand that others do not have such qualms about hunting someone for their posted opinion. As such, alt posting is one of the survival mechanism for us solo players that want to express their opinions. I can say that the changes from Hyperion have slowed down my anomaly farming a bit... not because of the mass jump, though, because I rarely did collapse my WH previously, but the change to loading the k162 when jumping and having more wh in general are the main reasons. I had to make my farming ships more nimble, and thus I am not dishing out as much DPS as before Hyperion. This is no complaints mind you, I always thought that farming in WH before Hyperion was way too easy... I can still farm and salvage three C3 anomalies in one hour, for around 120 millions ISK, where I used to do 4 or sometime even 5 with my full crew when my static was not loaded. These past three weeks it has been rarer to have only my static, so part of my crew has to scout instead of farming. I would say I may be making 20% less than before, so around 800 millions/week instead of 1 billion previously The mass change certainly has offered me a few more opportunities to engage other wormholes, so this is good in my books. Update: one thing i noted too is that anomalies have a tendency to stay longer than previously. May be just random happenstance, but I was surprised to see anon stays as long as they did this past week before I could get to them...
Stopped reading as soon as I saw it was Mr forum posting alt. I need a bigger phone screen.
The thing about wormholes is it is very difficult to hunt for someone specifically due to mechanics. Which you would know if you actually lived in a wh. |
|
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
53
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 17:56:00 -
[2151] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Saisin wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:
At this point if a NPC alt posts for the change, then I am inclined to listen to this post because we who are against the change have made it quite hostile against those who are for the change. So in an effort to save face they use an alt so they don't get hunted down and brutally murdered.
But all that said USE YOUR MAIN it gives you credibility, we are WHers not Nullblocs we wont hell purge you just for having a different opinion
I posted as an alt before this issue, and I wish I could believe everyone could harbor such honorable intents, but unfortunately I know first hand that others do not have such qualms about hunting someone for their posted opinion. As such, alt posting is one of the survival mechanism for us solo players that want to express their opinions. I can say that the changes from Hyperion have slowed down my anomaly farming a bit... not because of the mass jump, though, because I rarely did collapse my WH previously, but the change to loading the k162 when jumping and having more wh in general are the main reasons. I had to make my farming ships more nimble, and thus I am not dishing out as much DPS as before Hyperion. This is no complaints mind you, I always thought that farming in WH before Hyperion was way too easy... I can still farm and salvage three C3 anomalies in one hour, for around 120 millions ISK, where I used to do 4 or sometime even 5 with my full crew when my static was not loaded. These past three weeks it has been rarer to have only my static, so part of my crew has to scout instead of farming. I would say I may be making 20% less than before, so around 800 millions/week instead of 1 billion previously The mass change certainly has offered me a few more opportunities to engage other wormholes, so this is good in my books. Update: one thing i noted too is that anomalies have a tendency to stay longer than previously. May be just random happenstance, but I was surprised to see anon stays as long as they did this past week before I could get to them... Stopped reading as soon as I saw it was Mr forum posting alt. I need a bigger phone screen. The thing about wormholes is it is very difficult to hunt for someone specifically due to mechanics. Which you would know if you actually lived in a wh.
Actually not really you just put out a KOS on him. Pretty much all C5/C6 WH corps have a KOS on Steven Hackett :P So Much Space |
Ahost Gceo
Rolled Out Triumvirate.
207
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 18:00:00 -
[2152] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Saisin wrote: Mindless vomit...
Stopped reading as soon as I saw it was Mr forum posting alt. I need a bigger phone screen. The thing about wormholes is it is very difficult to hunt for someone specifically due to mechanics. Which you would know if you actually lived in a wh. It isn't difficult to hunt someone once you know they are in your vicinity. The real challenge is actually finding someone because you will mostly run into empty space or won't see the cloakies floating around you. "Is this system TRULY empty?" I'm a friggin' banana. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
75
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 18:00:00 -
[2153] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:Kirasten wrote:Saisin wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:
At this point if a NPC alt posts for the change, then I am inclined to listen to this post because we who are against the change have made it quite hostile against those who are for the change. So in an effort to save face they use an alt so they don't get hunted down and brutally murdered.
But all that said USE YOUR MAIN it gives you credibility, we are WHers not Nullblocs we wont hell purge you just for having a different opinion
I posted as an alt before this issue, and I wish I could believe everyone could harbor such honorable intents, but unfortunately I know first hand that others do not have such qualms about hunting someone for their posted opinion. As such, alt posting is one of the survival mechanism for us solo players that want to express their opinions. I can say that the changes from Hyperion have slowed down my anomaly farming a bit... not because of the mass jump, though, because I rarely did collapse my WH previously, but the change to loading the k162 when jumping and having more wh in general are the main reasons. I had to make my farming ships more nimble, and thus I am not dishing out as much DPS as before Hyperion. This is no complaints mind you, I always thought that farming in WH before Hyperion was way too easy... I can still farm and salvage three C3 anomalies in one hour, for around 120 millions ISK, where I used to do 4 or sometime even 5 with my full crew when my static was not loaded. These past three weeks it has been rarer to have only my static, so part of my crew has to scout instead of farming. I would say I may be making 20% less than before, so around 800 millions/week instead of 1 billion previously The mass change certainly has offered me a few more opportunities to engage other wormholes, so this is good in my books. Update: one thing i noted too is that anomalies have a tendency to stay longer than previously. May be just random happenstance, but I was surprised to see anon stays as long as they did this past week before I could get to them... Stopped reading as soon as I saw it was Mr forum posting alt. I need a bigger phone screen. The thing about wormholes is it is very difficult to hunt for someone specifically due to mechanics. Which you would know if you actually lived in a wh. Actually not really you just put out a KOS on him. Pretty much all C5/C6 WH corps have a KOS on Steven Hackett :P
Pretty much all C5/C6 corps have KOS on everyone they can find. |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
2099
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 21:36:00 -
[2154] - Quote
I have removed a rule breaking post and those quoting it.
The Rules: 31. Rumor mongering is prohibited.
Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the well being and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators. ISD Ezwal Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Tiger Tesla
Periphery Bound Dominatus Atrum Mortis
38
|
Posted - 2014.09.05 21:55:00 -
[2155] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Faren Shalni wrote:Kirasten wrote:[quote=Saisin][quote=Faren Shalni]
At this point if a NPC alt posts for the change, then I am inclined to listen to this post because we who are against the change have made it quite hostile against those who are for the change. So in an effort to save face they use an alt so they don't get hunted down and brutally murdered.
But all that said USE YOUR MAIN it gives you credibility, we are WHers not Nullblocs we wont hell purge you just for having a different opinion I posted as an alt before this issue, and I wish I could believe everyone could harbor such honorable intents, but unfortunately I know first hand that others do not have such qualms about hunting someone for their posted opinion. As such, alt posting is one of the survival mechanism for us solo players that want to express their opinions. I can say that the changes from Hyperion have slowed down my anomaly farming a bit... not because of the mass jump, though, because I rarely did collapse my WH previously, but the change to loading the k162 when jumping and having more wh in general are the main reasons. I had to make my farming ships more nimble, and thus I am not dishing out as much DPS as before Hyperion. This is no complaints mind you, I always thought that farming in WH before Hyperion was way too easy... I can still farm and salvage three C3 anomalies in one hour, for around 120 millions ISK, where I used to do 4 or sometime even 5 with my full crew when my static was not loaded. These past three weeks it has been rarer to have only my static, so part of my crew has to scout instead of farming. I would say I may be making 20% less than before, so around 800 millions/week instead of 1 billion previously The mass change certainly has offered me a few more opportunities to engage other wormholes, so this is good in my books. Update: one thing i noted too is that anomalies have a tendency to stay longer than previously. May be just random happenstance, but I was surprised to see anon stays as long as they did this past week before I could get to them... [REDACTING DELETED POST]
One of the main issues is content and security. Shoot everything has always been the way in wormhole space, but I would love it if it got to the point where wormholes were so desirable that you would have multiple groups living in every wormhole. We had a co-hab wormhole before Hyperion in a C4/C3, with two other corps. Sure it was a pain to share bookmarks, but it was nice to know that people in different timezones had a presence in the wormhole, and the added numbers for defense and offense always helped.
I wish that wormholes were actually as profitable as the risk would warrant. I have plenty of high SP members in my corp that could all be guaranteed anywhere from 100-200million isk an hour in high sec, and with significantly less effort and risk. I wish I could guarantee the same consistency of income, and it is even easy to tax!
I think one of the main issues is that it is basically impossible to fully scout your chain after the changes, something that was at least possible pre-Hyperion. We used to live in a C4/C4, and we knew what chains looked like xD. We spent 4 hours with 3 scouts to scan as many wormholes as we could fit on our Siggy, didn't find anything besides some MTUs and an abandoned venture. We then decided to roll the hole and spend the night inside.
Large empty chains is the worst nightmare for groups looking for some pvp. You can't even be a hunter in low class wormholes unless you are doing something on another monitor. Unless you like staring at the one active in your chain POS spinning, just praying to BOB that he flys out to do something.
I wish that CCP would add more reasons to be outside of POS shields in wormholes. Just one piece of added content would have gone a LONG way.
We moved out of our C4 because of the changes, and we are a fairly active group of guys. I can only imagine how smaller corps are surviving.... |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
580
|
Posted - 2014.09.06 20:32:00 -
[2156] - Quote
Anize Oramara wrote:Heh... So there's this webcomic I read and the last two pages of it (1011 and 1012) seemed rather pertinent. http://mysticrevolution.keenspot.com/?cid=1011Heck, even the speech the chick in the last frame on the linked page gives fits so well it's hilarious. How fitting.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
459
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 10:10:00 -
[2157] - Quote
Since Hyperion has been out for a couple weeks now and this change in particular has had enough time to sink in I've finally decided on whether I like this change or not. My corp lives in a c5/c5. I have 3 pilots that I'd use to solo roll holes before Hyperion. A Moros, Orca and Helios. With Hyperion came the mass based spawn which frankly really fucks lower class whs. What I need to roll with Hyperion: Moros, Orca, Daredevil/Helios. CCP has made rolling holes slightly more time consuming then pre-Hyperion for High class wh's. I'm sure rolling holes in low class whs takes much much longer. It took us twice as long to roll a c4 even with the help of 3 orcas and multiple bs then it did for us to roll a c5 and nullsec connection tonight.
Now, I'm sure you're saying that, 'Yeah you could roll holes with just that but you're gonna get ganked!'. We roll holes for two reasons. First, the chain is dead and there's no pew. No pew means I can roll solo without a worry, no ones around. Second, were preparing to run escalations for isk. This generally means there a fair number of us on so if a cap does get tackled we can support it.
Verdict on mass based spawn: Meh. It has little to no effect for my corp to roll holes. It does give us the possibility of catching stuff trying to roll tho Blue-Fire Best Fire |
scotayne hawkins
Merchants Trade Consortium The Last Chancers.
36
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 22:48:00 -
[2158] - Quote
The Last Chancers. for a change this weekend spent the majority of this weekend deep chaining and rolling our static 6. we found alot of c5 and c6 holes we use to enjoy picking small scale fights with where empty, if after a couple weeks of these changes having this much effect.
high class w-space is going to become a very lonely place to be indeed, for those who think this is all bull crap, t3 prices have started increasing already. even the farming operations we use to see turtling up inside their towers have packed up and left.
i also learnt today that one of the larger corps/ alliances has also left w-space due to lack of pew options, and reading the last few pages i noticed some other corps quoting they are finding more fights in null and low sec than anything in w-space.
these changes need reversing before the damage is done, moving entire corps/allainces out of w-space is hard and time consuming so once they leave they wont come back.
as for more options to catch ppl rolling holes which i believe was the intended result of these changes we're seeing ppl pos spin or log where as before they'd try and roll and covert fleets would come into play. now we get nothing.
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Wry Salen
Flying Scissors Rock Paper Lasers
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.07 23:35:00 -
[2159] - Quote
After nearly three years living full-time in C4s, our main group is relocating back to empire. Not really because the changes affect us all that much (C4 static C5 group after all), but because honestly, day/week-tripping seems to be the way to go after these changes.
Nearly every chain we've been on, since the expansion, has had people moving stuff out. Take that as you will. |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
52
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 01:05:00 -
[2160] - Quote
I think enough has been said that CCP knows we do not Like One of the changes and its hurting our space. Now it is just a matter of seeing if they care enough to back up a few changes or make more constructive changes to Pull Players back into w space.
Here are a few of my ideas.
1. Sleepers faction Drops= this will Give us officer / faction drops same as other space and will drive ppl into whs to hunt for them.
2. A higher class wh like a c7 that has massive mass whs that you can move a proper cap fleet and support fleet to run sleeper sites with capital sleepers and get back out . We will be able to have large fleet fights as well in there. Make The class 7 with no moons so it can not be "lived" in and multiple connections
3. Make lower class wh sleeper drops better and more worth while to run. this is class 1-3 also let make a few more of the triggers random to take out the boring predictable assembly line style of running sights. Maybe give them some escalations as well if you warp in bs's or caps for all class sites
That is all i have for now but a few constructive ideas for you to look over
Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
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Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 01:29:00 -
[2161] - Quote
Hi CCP,
Here is my feed back for Mass-Based Spawn Distance.
I really do not like it. Do you know how impossible it is for small gangs to catch a covert ops T3 now? Gone are the days of T3's spawning too close to a WH to cloak. If you want to live forever and never die all you need to do is fly a covert ops ship. Go through a WH, cloak up because there is no risk in running away now.
Now, I know there are lots of ways of bringing someone out of cloak... But, I'm just talking about small gang. We usually run with like 3-4 ships.
While trying to fix "rage rolling" which I honestly feel like isn't even a big deal at all and probably a small minority of WH dwellers have an issue with. You've destroyed PvP for small corps in WH space AND PvE.
I know everyone throws around "omg only the bears will care". But honestly, even the non-bears love the bears. Why on earth would you want bears to move out of WH space?!! I vote bring ALL the bears in! EVERYONE loves killing bears, it's fun. Even a "bear" like me loves killing those who are slightly more a "bear" then me.
Most everyone always flies covert ops due to no local. How about giving us the ability to kill covert ops on wh's back.
Sincerely,
The biggest noob on earth - Scrub |
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 10:06:00 -
[2162] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Dalron wrote:Here's my take on what these changes will happen with these changes.
Bigger corps will continue pretty much as they are now for PvE, some will get caught rolling wormholes slightly more than others but overall pvp probabily wont actually change that much.
Smaller corps will start losing out more and more. Longer times to roll wormholes, more risk rolling wormholes, and more incoming wormholes (not just the frig wormholes but the hundreds of new C4 wormholes that are appearing everywhere). They will start losing ISK income and getting fed up. They will start to move out, slowly at first but it will continue.
Bigger wormhole corps will look for pvp but the targets will start to become scarcer as corps move out. So they will start to target the smaller corps they would previously have overlooked just so they can get kills. Some of these corps will start to leave too.
Bigger PVP oriented WH corps will leave once they have nothing to do.
We might get a cyclic occupation as prices rise people move back in to take advantage and then the cycle repeats, or a simple lower occupational level might stabilize.
This is pretty much spot on to what i expect to happen.
One week on and here's how this is going for me (and I suspect a lot of others).
Now I've been playing eve for 10 years, have a relationship etc so my play time is normally limited to 2-3 hours 5-6 times a week at best. I'd guess that a lot of other people are like that too. Additionally in wormholes I'm guessing a lot of people are drawn to them due to them being difficult and rewarding BUT not requiring nullsec power bloc membership that is too time consuming (PVP/Fleet requirements etc).
So before I could log in, scan down and close out the wormhole quickly and then do an hours worth of PVE.. maybe 1.5 hours if there were only a few wormholes. Occasionally there would be a bigger corp on the other side of the wormhole but if I was quick enough I could close it out before they even knew I was there.
Since the patch if there's anyone on the other side then it's not going to get closed out. You can try with battleships but that takes many more passes and still has too much risk if there are forces awake on the other side since they have so much more time to mobilize a fleet to come and get you AND.. since it takes so long that by the time I'm finished closing out the wormholes there's not enough time to actually go and play the game. I've managed one day of PVE in the last week, compared to 3-4 days before the patch.
If this continues then I might as well move out, and if I move out I'll probabily quit Eve again until they create some interesting content because I dont play this game to watch ships jumping through wormholes and very little else.
It's been two weeks now. CCP should be transparent to their players, we deserve to see the stats and see what CCP actually thought they were going to get out of this change and if its working.
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Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
110
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 14:42:00 -
[2163] - Quote
Just to remind you ppl - after all our posts were deleted:
CCP newer wanted ppl to live in wh space - the pos code was simply a mistake.
CCP made escalations to prevent ppl from using caps in wh space - not to reward the wh bears.
CCP never thought of ppl rolling whs and making wh space a bears dream.
The frig whs are exactly tailored to allow null bomber fleets attack whs - even with increasing mass, so no one could roll them.
The mass spawn is tailored exactly to make rolling more difficult - not impossible, but more difficult.
So - CCP wants ppl to play in null sex. Null sex is deserted - so we wlll see more changes that will herd ppl towards null sex.
FW is now really null sex light - with the same stagnation.
Wh space in like null sex version 2.0 - getting the same stagnation.
So what we will see are interesting changes to null sex - I hope that these changes will break up the existing stagnation in EVE. |
Senji Vuran
Revenant Tactical
12
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 15:52:00 -
[2164] - Quote
Rahelis wrote: CCP newer wanted ppl to live in wh space - the pos code was simply a mistake.
[Citation Needed]
Rahelis wrote: CCP made escalations to prevent ppl from using caps in wh space - not to reward the wh bears.
[Citation Needed]
Rahelis wrote: CCP never thought of ppl rolling whs and making wh space a bears dream.
[Citation Needed]
Rahelis wrote: So - CCP wants ppl to play in null sex. Null sex is deserted - so we wlll see more changes that will herd ppl towards null sex.
[Citation Needed]
They may have been surprised at the innovative ways players started using Wspace, but until I see CCP statements to the effect that they want to actually prevent those uses, everything you said is mere rumor and/or supposition and therefore not just of no value, but harmful. |
Rahelis
Tris Legomenon
110
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 17:15:00 -
[2165] - Quote
You realize that EVE was based on the equation risk vs. gain?
Whs as we had them before hyperion where bears den.
I know so many wh guys talk about pvp - but wh space is bear space first and only.
The patch changed that a bit - it is easy to understand.
Gameplay is not harmful - let us see how the t3 prices blow up soon. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1208
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 18:30:00 -
[2166] - Quote
Rahelis wrote:You realize that EVE was based on the equation risk vs. gain?
Whs as we had them before hyperion where bears den.
I know so many wh guys talk about pvp - but wh space is bear space first and only.
The patch changed that a bit - it is easy to understand.
Gameplay is not harmful - let us see how the t3 prices blow up soon.
You make so many questionable assumptions.
Regarding the whole issue of people feeding in Wormholes, bearing, yes a good income is theoretically possible in wormholes. But:-
All these figures assume that all areas are highly lucrative. One can "farm" them continuously. Everyone in the wormhole can do them all the time. There are no costs in living in a wormhole. Logistics are easy. One never loses ships, POS, Capitals, your entire home. "Farmers" are just bears and never engage in PVP.
All of the above are Wrong, as anyone who lives in wormholes will tell you, and have done so, repeatedly, but let not let facts get in the way of telling a good story.
We now have it so that in large areas of wormhole space, it is no longer possible to cover the costs of operation, without either going to null or running sites and incursions.
Other areas, it is possible, but only until the "farmers" leave, and then who is there to feed on to keep the predators alive?
In a real ecology, the lions do not disparage and criticise the prey, they welcome the difference, and do not try to convert an antelope to a lion.
When the antelopes get fed up with being treated like a second class species, and move out, then all you have is hungry Lions, who also leave in search of fresh Prey.
So getting rid of farmers and bears, such as they are, just makes for a wasteland with a few hyenas pretending to be lions squabbling over the last rotten carrion.
Is that the game that is wanted? Because that is what will happen.
That is the result of listening to people, who have no experience of WH Space, who have their own agenda and prejudices. And whose whole view is based on false assumptions. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
96
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 20:45:00 -
[2167] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
a) All these figures assume that all areas are highly lucrative. b) One can "farm" them continuously. c) Everyone in the wormhole can do them all the time. d) There are no costs in living in a wormhole. e) Logistics are easy. f) One never loses ships, POS, Capitals, your entire home. g) "Farmers" are just bears and never engage in PVP.
All of the above are Wrong, as anyone who lives in wormholes will tell you, and have done so, repeatedly, but let not let facts get in the way of telling a good story.
It is actually not wrong by the definition we use of the word "farmer" that you pretty much gave yourself: g) "Farmers" are just bears and never engage in PVP. They only run their homesites and are there for no other purpose. So they make sure they aren-¦t too many for siterunning,so c) falls flat too. Also they can b) farm them continuously in perspective of playtime and that is a major argument on where to farm. If you want to farm a few hours every week that is easily doable in a c4, if you want to farm a few hours monday to tuesday you can easily do that in a c5/6 since you do not despawn the sites. If you want to farm/bot 10+h every day you need to do lvl4s or sov 0.0 d) cost of living is only a factor if you are solo and very casual. Hell, we used to fuel corptowers just from pvploot e) logistics are a nonpoint since they only need stront and fuel and you can do that every few months when you get the lucky k-space And on f) loosing ships/caps in sites is already in the risk/reward equivalation and obviously was worth it. And all the farmer looses to evictions unless he fucks up is a few days of time and some scanships/haulers/gasminers because he will log in his expensive rattingships. Even if you move into his hole there are plenty of empty ones he can just move to within hours.
So overall you are correct for the people who actually live here and who we all want to live here, but not for farmers.
And I don-¦t know but having f.e. 20 lions in c6 space that are able to fight each other sounds so awesome noone would care about any antilopes. There probably wouldn-¦t be any since they would just be drive-by fastfood.
epicurus ataraxia wrote: Fozzie and his team, need to take stock, look at all the data coming in, throw away the false assumptions, and base the way forward on what is the True state of wormhole space.
They have been clearly monstrously misinformed, they should never trust those advisers again.
And now you are even wronger, they had good data and advise, they just made really bad decisions on how to tackle the problems following from that. And some bad decisions that led to that state in the first place. By your logic the easing of c6 ratting and thus the rapid increase (almost doubled within 12 months) should have brought many new groups of "hunters" into c6 space. Yet we actually saw the numbes of notable corps and alliances in there go down from not too many to a handful.
To stick with your metapher: The lions didn-¦t get fresh antilopemeat but could only watch same rabbits that would be in their deep tunnels at the first sign of trouble where the lions would have to spent all weekend digging them out of. And not getting anything to eat in the meantime. Ofc sometimes a lion gets a fat, stupid or really unlucky rabbit. But that happened just so often and doesn-¦t hurt the rabbitpopulation overall. It actually is more like the lion catching only the tip of one rabbitear, so the rabbit squeeks a bit, hides a few days and then continues as usual. While the starving lions move to that nice reservoir next door where they can just sit on a gate or bubble a station and buffelos will leap right into their open mouths all day long. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
146
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 21:09:00 -
[2168] - Quote
Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.
Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes. I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.
thanks |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
2
|
Posted - 2014.09.08 23:40:00 -
[2169] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.
Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes. I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.
thanks
This ^
It would be nice if CCP could keep the discussion going, a little communication would go a long way. There is a C5 open to our hole with hostiles in it. We would very much love to come out and play, but let's be honest.... 3v7 isn't much of a fight. Would rather roll the hole, but I don't feel like losing a dread. So we're just afk cloaked in our hole hoping they'll log so we can roll it. And no, I don't trust them enough for a "fair fight". This is EvE where you screw people at any chance you get.
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epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1210
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 08:20:00 -
[2170] - Quote
Shilalasar wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:
a) All these figures assume that all areas are highly lucrative. b) One can "farm" them continuously. c) Everyone in the wormhole can do them all the time. d) There are no costs in living in a wormhole. e) Logistics are easy. f) One never loses ships, POS, Capitals, your entire home. g) "Farmers" are just bears and never engage in PVP.
All of the above are Wrong, as anyone who lives in wormholes will tell you, and have done so, repeatedly, but let not let facts get in the way of telling a good story.
It is actually not wrong by the definition we use of the word "farmer" that you pretty much gave yourself: g) "Farmers" are just bears and never engage in PVP. They only run their homesites and are there for no other purpose. So they make sure they aren-¦t too many for siterunning,so c) falls flat too. Also they can b) farm them continuously in perspective of playtime and that is a major argument on where to farm. If you want to farm a few hours every week that is easily doable in a c4, if you want to farm a few hours monday to tuesday you can easily do that in a c5/6 since you do not despawn the sites. If you want to farm/bot 10+h every day you need to do lvl4s or sov 0.0 d) cost of living is only a factor if you are solo and very casual. Hell, we used to fuel corptowers just from pvploot e) logistics are a nonpoint since they only need stront and fuel and you can do that every few months when you get the lucky k-space And on f) loosing ships/caps in sites is already in the risk/reward equivalation and obviously was worth it. And all the farmer looses to evictions unless he fucks up is a few days of time and some scanships/haulers/gasminers because he will log in his expensive rattingships. Even if you move into his hole there are plenty of empty ones he can just move to within hours. So overall you are correct for the people who actually live here and who we all want to live here, but not for farmers. And I don-¦t know but having f.e. 20 lions in c6 space that are able to fight each other sounds so awesome noone would care about any antilopes. There probably wouldn-¦t be any since they would just be drive-by fastfood. epicurus ataraxia wrote: Fozzie and his team, need to take stock, look at all the data coming in, throw away the false assumptions, and base the way forward on what is the True state of wormhole space.
They have been clearly monstrously misinformed, they should never trust those advisers again.
And now you are even wronger, they had good data and advise, they just made really bad decisions on how to tackle the problems following from that. And some bad decisions that led to that state in the first place. By your logic the easing of c6 ratting and thus the rapid increase (almost doubled within 12 months) should have brought many new groups of "hunters" into c6 space. Yet we actually saw the numbes of notable corps and alliances in there go down from not too many to a handful. To stick with your metapher: The lions didn-¦t get fresh antilopemeat but could only watch same rabbits that would be in their deep tunnels at the first sign of trouble where the lions would have to spent all weekend digging them out of. And not getting anything to eat in the meantime. Ofc sometimes a lion gets a fat, stupid or really unlucky rabbit. But that happened just so often and doesn-¦t hurt the rabbitpopulation overall. It actually is more like the lion catching only the tip of one rabbitear, so the rabbit squeeks a bit, hides a few days and then continues as usual. While the starving lions move to that nice reservoir next door where they can just sit on a gate or bubble a station and buffelos will leap right into their open mouths all day long.
I suggest we wait for corbexx figures as to what income is actually possible in each class of wormhole. And put this argument once and for all to bed.
There are those who believe that wormholes are full of gold. And believe that they are full of hundreds or thousands of selfish despicable people who are behaving like some archetypal shylock, hiding away rubbing their hands and rolling naked in isk.
I believe that that is bullshit. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
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Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
442
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 13:37:00 -
[2171] - Quote
I'd just like to point out one more time. The mass thing didn't add risk to rolling wh. Once your rolling ships are in warp to the wh they are all in.
The mass thing REMOVED RISK from ganking rollers. Before hyperion, to ensure you got rollers you had to be willing ti exercise the 'all in' option. Post hyperion you have to master bumping and webbing, sit tight in your own wh and shoot pinatas.
When Fozzie stated that he was adding more risk to rolling... from a risk standpoint he was wrong. Rollers have always been all in. The 'safe' rolling was due to the general aversion of ganking fleets to go all in. The mass change just handed out loot to guys waiting in their home systems (picture a baby bird in a nest w/open mouth waiting for mamma to drop in some dinner).
No offense Fozzie, but your stated premise is just wrong on this one. If you ever need help understanding the risk involved with something... I get paid a lot of RL iskies to deal with various forms or risk every day. Who ever analyzed the whole wh rolling and ganking someone rolling a wh process missed by a mile... and we see the results.
|
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3425
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 15:31:00 -
[2172] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.
Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes. I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.
thanks
Pretty simple equation.
If the data supported that this change did not negatively affect wornhole population and participation, CCP would be pumping out all kinds of data trumpeting how wonderful this change was, regardless of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary.
But they have not. Does not take a genius to know why not. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1212
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 16:18:00 -
[2173] - Quote
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Enthropic wrote:Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.
Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes. I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.
thanks Pretty simple equation. If the data supported that this change did not negatively affect wornhole population and participation, CCP would be pumping out all kinds of data trumpeting how wonderful this change was, regardless of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary. But they have not. Does not take a genius to know why not.
Lets just be a little realistic here, changes went in , some or particuarly one change raised the concerns of almost the entirety of wormhole space, who said to a man, "this is wrong and in combination with the other changes will have negative effects" ( possibly more stongly said).
Now when the figures start coming in showing that was actually correct, would one expect anyone to say, "here guys, You were right, and I was a complete muppet?"
No, human nature will ensure that they wish to be sure of that, and to try to understand why they were so wrong. They acted according to their best abilities and beliefs, if the starting assumptions are wrong, then the rest cannot succeed.
Whoever advised them that the mass spawn suggestion was a good idea, has a great deal to answer for, he played CCP and the wormhole community for fools. Hopefully it was just a matter or ignorance or lack of thought and not malice. Because it would have taken a particular brand of crazy for a wormholer to think it was a good idea, for more than the first sugar rush of losses from those who did not read devblogs and died, and to furthermore think that the unending outrage from the community and damage to the relationship would ever be worthwhile.
So. They will make the new changes to undo the damage. And retain face by distraction or introducing something completely different, saying this was their plan all along and the changes were just a preparation and no longer needed. Hopefully this will happen swiftly, as any who leave, are unlikely to return, we want more players of all types in wormholes, hopefully something to attract people will come soon. I believe that CCP have their own, their companies, and their players interests at heart.
We have all seen activity in wormholes decrease over the last year, it is clear as day, the number of empty systems that once had inhabitants and were full of life, now with only dead sticks left behind.
They obviously thought Hyperion would help things recover, they must have seen this data, in what form, and how granular, only they know, we will never know exactly how many left, we do not need to.
All we want is more life, more inhabitants, more to shoot, and more to be shot at by, and the ability for wormhole space residents in all areas to be able to finance their life, and losses within wormhole space, but sadly their changes are having exactly the opposite effect.
This will not be ignored as it is in their, and our best interests together to resolve.
When the metrics are clear and they NEED hard data, they will find some way, any way to rectify this, hopefully they will listen to Corbexx, he seems to have a very good and clear understanding of the issues and the cure.
This forum also contains a great deal of experienced talented players with good suggestions. (Ignoring the usual suspects who have as much of an idea about wormhole mechanics, as a flatworm has of multidimentional physics.)
Apart from them, I really cannot see a GRR Goons in this although they certainly benefit where wormholers don't, just not enough for it to be deliberate other than just messing with peoples heads and causing grief. But either way, this expansion will not remain unchanged, as any figures will just confirm how it fails in it's goal.
So CCP please roll back the mass random spawn mechanic at the earliest possible opportunity, as this is the most egregious, and then there is the possibility to balance the others and move on. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
447
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 16:58:00 -
[2174] - Quote
I don't think wh activity has gone down over the last year (last 2 months is another story). I think c5/c6 activity went down over the past year. I think the big fish chased a lot of the little fish into the shallows so to speak. A lot of guys I know went low class because that's where the fun was for them.
I also think that there are a few large wh groups that are a lot more forum vocal than the smaller groups, so their message gets out a lot more.
I would think the real metric that most of us are interested in seeing is the pvp losses in wh graphed out over time from the beginning of wh to the end. I think it would be pretty easy to pull that out of the server.
Another interesting set of graphs would be active FF in wh from the beginning until now. This one I would like to see as follows:
Graph 1 Green: total active FF in wh space Blue: total corps/alliances having active FF in wh space
Graph 2 Plot out Graph 1 and overlay it w/ total active FF by wh class so a distribution could be seen
Graph 3 Plot out Graph 1 and overlay it with corps w/ active FF by wh class so a distribution could be seen
Can we get a look at these? It would put A LOT of speculation to rest. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1212
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 17:04:00 -
[2175] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I don't think wh activity has gone down over the last year (last 2 months is another story). I think c5/c6 activity went down over the past year. I think the big fish chased a lot of the little fish into the shallows so to speak. A lot of guys I know went low class because that's where the fun was for them.
I also think that there are a few large wh groups that are a lot more forum vocal than the smaller groups, so their message gets out a lot more.
I would think the real metric that most of us are interested in seeing is the pvp losses in wh graphed out over time from the beginning of wh to the end. I think it would be pretty easy to pull that out of the server.
Another interesting set of graphs would be active FF in wh from the beginning until now. This one I would like to see as follows:
Graph 1 Green: total active FF in wh space Blue: total corps having active FF in wh space
Graph 2 Plot out Graph 1 and overlay it w/ total active FF by wh class so a distribution could be seen
Graph 3 Plot out Graph 1 and overlay it with corps w/ active FF by wh class so a distribution could be seen
Can we get a look at these? It would put A LOT of speculation to rest.
I was in a C4 corp before, and I was surprised at just how many dead sticks were appearing in lower class holes, apparently it has been going on for a while now. Either way, I am sure they have the data, and will be looking at it, I honestly do not believe we will ever see it, as it serves no purpose to dwell on past mistakes, they just need to call on the best resources they have available to find ways to undo them, and reverse the drain of vitality from wormhole space.
I think we all agree that if wormhole space is vital and alive, everyone benefits from a healthy ecology? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Aquila Sagitta
Blue-Fire
465
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 20:10:00 -
[2176] - Quote
Could make a graph with wh kills with zkill's API Blue-Fire Best Fire |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
67
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 21:08:00 -
[2177] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Enthropic wrote:Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.
Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes. I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.
thanks Pretty simple equation. If the data supported that this change did not negatively affect wornhole population and participation, CCP would be pumping out all kinds of data trumpeting how wonderful this change was, regardless of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary. But they have not. Does not take a genius to know why not. Lets just be a little realistic here, changes went in , some or particuarly one change raised the concerns of almost the entirety of wormhole space, who said to a man, "this is wrong and in combination with the other changes will have negative effects" ( possibly more stongly said). Now when the figures start coming in showing that was actually correct, would one expect anyone to say, "here guys, You were right, and I was a complete muppet?" No, human nature will ensure that they wish to be sure of that, and to try to understand why they were so wrong. They acted according to their best abilities and beliefs, if the starting assumptions are wrong, then the rest cannot succeed. Whoever advised them that the mass spawn suggestion was a good idea, has a great deal to answer for, he played CCP and the wormhole community for fools. Hopefully it was just a matter or ignorance or lack of thought and not malice. Because it would have taken a particular brand of crazy for a wormholer to think it was a good idea, for more than the first sugar rush of losses from those who did not read devblogs and died, and to furthermore think that the unending outrage from the community and damage to the relationship would ever be worthwhile. So. They will make the new changes to undo the damage. And retain face by distraction or introducing something completely different, saying this was their plan all along and the changes were just a preparation and no longer needed. Hopefully this will happen swiftly, as any who leave, are unlikely to return, we want more players of all types in wormholes, hopefully something to attract people will come soon. I believe that CCP have their own, their companies, and their players interests at heart. We have all seen activity in wormholes decrease over the last year, it is clear as day, the number of empty systems that once had inhabitants and were full of life, now with only dead sticks left behind. They obviously thought Hyperion would help things recover, they must have seen this data, in what form, and how granular, only they know, we will never know exactly how many left, we do not need to. All we want is more life, more inhabitants, more to shoot, and more to be shot at by, and the ability for wormhole space residents in all areas to be able to finance their life, and losses within wormhole space, but sadly their changes are having exactly the opposite effect. This will not be ignored as it is in their, and our best interests together to resolve. When the metrics are clear and they NEED hard data, they will find some way, any way to rectify this, hopefully they will listen to Corbexx, he seems to have a very good and clear understanding of the issues and the cure. This forum also contains a great deal of experienced talented players with good suggestions. (Ignoring the usual suspects who have as much of an idea about wormhole mechanics, as a flatworm has of multidimentional physics.) Apart from them, I really cannot see a GRR Goons in this although they certainly benefit where wormholers don't, just not enough for it to be deliberate other than just messing with peoples heads and causing grief. But either way, this expansion will not remain unchanged, as any figures will just confirm how it fails in it's goal. So CCP please roll back the mass random spawn mechanic at the earliest possible opportunity, as this is the most egregious, and then there is the possibility to balance the others and move on.
Then again, the mass spawn mechanic didn't actually cause an end of the world and pretty much negates your whole post.
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
581
|
Posted - 2014.09.09 23:49:00 -
[2178] - Quote
WH problem is still very relevant CCP.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
epicurus ataraxia
Lazerhawks
1213
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 00:06:00 -
[2179] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:Enthropic wrote:Hi Fozzie, in case you read this.
Based on your last post in that thread, I understand that you are watching the metrics of your changes. I dont need to know what data it is and how you are evaluating it, but would it be possible to give a rough estimate of the time frame? Before some random dude jumps on me, Im not interested in a discussion about how long CCP should collect data or what you think why this change is good or bad, just trying my luck on getting some info whether its reasonable to expect an update/reaction from CCP on the current situation soon, or in weeks, or months. Im sure that would help me a lot, if you dont mind me asking CCP.
thanks Pretty simple equation. If the data supported that this change did not negatively affect wornhole population and participation, CCP would be pumping out all kinds of data trumpeting how wonderful this change was, regardless of all the anecdotal evidence to the contrary. But they have not. Does not take a genius to know why not. Lets just be a little realistic here, changes went in , some or particuarly one change raised the concerns of almost the entirety of wormhole space, who said to a man, "this is wrong and in combination with the other changes will have negative effects" ( possibly more stongly said). Now when the figures start coming in showing that was actually correct, would one expect anyone to say, "here guys, You were right, and I was a complete muppet?" No, human nature will ensure that they wish to be sure of that, and to try to understand why they were so wrong. They acted according to their best abilities and beliefs, if the starting assumptions are wrong, then the rest cannot succeed. Whoever advised them that the mass spawn suggestion was a good idea, has a great deal to answer for, he played CCP and the wormhole community for fools. Hopefully it was just a matter or ignorance or lack of thought and not malice. Because it would have taken a particular brand of crazy for a wormholer to think it was a good idea, for more than the first sugar rush of losses from those who did not read devblogs and died, and to furthermore think that the unending outrage from the community and damage to the relationship would ever be worthwhile. So. They will make the new changes to undo the damage. And retain face by distraction or introducing something completely different, saying this was their plan all along and the changes were just a preparation and no longer needed. Hopefully this will happen swiftly, as any who leave, are unlikely to return, we want more players of all types in wormholes, hopefully something to attract people will come soon. I believe that CCP have their own, their companies, and their players interests at heart. We have all seen activity in wormholes decrease over the last year, it is clear as day, the number of empty systems that once had inhabitants and were full of life, now with only dead sticks left behind. They obviously thought Hyperion would help things recover, they must have seen this data, in what form, and how granular, only they know, we will never know exactly how many left, we do not need to. All we want is more life, more inhabitants, more to shoot, and more to be shot at by, and the ability for wormhole space residents in all areas to be able to finance their life, and losses within wormhole space, but sadly their changes are having exactly the opposite effect. This will not be ignored as it is in their, and our best interests together to resolve. When the metrics are clear and they NEED hard data, they will find some way, any way to rectify this, hopefully they will listen to Corbexx, he seems to have a very good and clear understanding of the issues and the cure. This forum also contains a great deal of experienced talented players with good suggestions. (Ignoring the usual suspects who have as much of an idea about wormhole mechanics, as a flatworm has of multidimentional physics.) Apart from them, I really cannot see a GRR Goons in this although they certainly benefit where wormholers don't, just not enough for it to be deliberate other than just messing with peoples heads and causing grief. But either way, this expansion will not remain unchanged, as any figures will just confirm how it fails in it's goal. So CCP please roll back the mass random spawn mechanic at the earliest possible opportunity, as this is the most egregious, and then there is the possibility to balance the others and move on. Then again, the mass spawn mechanic didn't actually cause an end of the world and pretty much negates your whole post.
No one ever said It would,
It still Makes it a bad mechanic that is bad for wormhole space, What did you expect it to behave like a nuclear weapon? But that has been explained over more than 100 pages in the various threads.
But please continue to ignore all you do not understand, I expect you will continue to.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
67
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 05:44:00 -
[2180] - Quote
Everyone ignores crybabies whining over insignificant things, except perhaps your mother. |
|
|
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
184
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 10:14:00 -
[2181] - Quote
I have removed some off-topic posts. Please stay on topic and be respectful to other players. If you have nothing constructive or nice to say, please do not derail the purpose of the thread.
Quote:2. Be respectful toward others at all times.
The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.
Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not conductive to the community spirit that CCP promotes. As such, this kind of behavior will not be tolerated.
Thanks for your cooperation. ISD Decoy Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
287
|
Posted - 2014.09.10 10:22:00 -
[2182] - Quote
ah the mods ninja'ed me. gg. |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
582
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 12:10:00 -
[2183] - Quote
Guess they managed to not get the thread reach 100 pages a second time.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
453
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 12:58:00 -
[2184] - Quote
We ganked some guys trying to consolidate and move out a few nights ago. I've processed a lot of ships and pods during my years in eve. Never felt bad our guilty about any of it. Feeling bad about nicking these guys during their tear down was a first for me. I haven't been able to feel OK about it for a couple of days. I'm making a short term corp policy to not wonk on folks that are obviously moving out.
I can't see where kicking a guy in the patoot after the game has already kicked him in the ******* is good for anything. Just another nail in the "never coming back" coffin.
I'm not big on mercy or charity in - especially in eve, but before you gank some guys that are making a difficult decision, maybe think about what you are actually doing. Just for a week or so. |
Steven Hackett
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
77
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 15:57:00 -
[2185] - Quote
Would be great with a response from CCP on what/if they are working on to fix the issues raised in the many posts and/or what they are monitoring or how they see this change have affected the game and how they feel about it.
The answer may not make us happy, but it would at least show us that those generic messages saying "We are still listening to your feedback" that we see pop up from time to time without other new info isn't just what they seem to be (bullshit if you didn't catch that).. |
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
54
|
Posted - 2014.09.11 20:53:00 -
[2186] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread
soooooo nullsec get this well in advance
we got 2-3 weeks and only after discovering it for ourselves
/me sighs So Much Space |
Anize Oramara
EVE Protection Agency Bloodline.
287
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 07:32:00 -
[2187] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread
soooooo nullsec get this well in advance
we got 2-3 weeks and only after discovering it for ourselves
/me sighs wh space has always been the redheaded bastard stepchild of eve, regardless of what certain devs might profess. this patch, and the way the community was told to shut up, sit down, and be happy we got anything at all in 5 years is irrefutable proof of this. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
102
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 07:45:00 -
[2188] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread
soooooo nullsec get this well in advance
we got 2-3 weeks and only after discovering it for ourselves
/me sighs
Don't make a mistake about assumption what they might change.
Despite the fact, that 0.0 is asked in advance very openly and politely for feedback, In comparison to wh Fozzie was not asking for more conflicts in 0.0, indeed he was pointing out, how happy they are, that in 0.0 they see more miners and ratters and they have the clear focus acc. to my understanding to improve industry as well. 0.0 is supposed to be the new hisec maybe?
That's so disturbing and even more frustrating to see how differently they treat their customer. |
Jez Amatin
Enso Corp
18
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 08:28:00 -
[2189] - Quote
Faren Shalni wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=372889&find=unread
soooooo nullsec get this well in advance
we got 2-3 weeks and only after discovering it for ourselves
/me sighs
well on the upside, it gives us plenty of time to grab the popcorn get a nice comfy seat and enjoy the drama unfold. if null changes are handled as badly as hyperion then i cannot wait for the "feedback". |
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
388
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 13:01:00 -
[2190] - Quote
Mass based spawns are still annoying. We now have more battleships in our hole. Well played? |
|
Chandoraa
Negative Density Disavowed.
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 13:02:00 -
[2191] - Quote
The way that I am looking at this is that CCP will not simply remove a change that they have implemented. Imagine what would happen if it was simply removed, every little change in the future could be disputed and this referred to as an example of when CCP have done it previously
The only metaphor I could come up with is that the USA doesn't negotiate with terrorists for the exact same reason.
My suggestion to make everyone happy is to remove the WH mass jump distance rubbish and replace it with a change to the polarization mechanics to make each jump have a timer. I am not saying that every jump should be 4 minutes, but something like 1 minute on the first jump and then if you jump back within 4 minutes, like now you then have a 4 minute timer.
I would also like it if the timer started counting down after you de-cloak and you have a visual indication on the UI of how much time is remaining on that timer.
I believe that this will increase risk for capitals on WH as they will have to de-cloak and sit there for 1 minute with their arse in the air before jumping back to "safety". If the WH residents are on the ball and the capital gets jumped, the aggressors will have to try and burn it down within a minute (not very likely) or make a choice on whether or not they jump through to follow as they will be polarized on the other side for a minute.
Anyway this is just an idea I have been playing with and I wanted to keep this whole discussion going.
Thanks.
|
Saisin
State War Academy Caldari State
141
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 16:07:00 -
[2192] - Quote
Chandoraa wrote:The way that I am looking at this is that CCP will not simply remove a change that they have implemented. Imagine what would happen if it was simply removed, every little change in the future could be disputed and this referred to as an example of when CCP have done it previously
The only metaphor I could come up with is that the USA doesn't negotiate with terrorists for the exact same reason.
My suggestion to make everyone happy is to remove the WH mass jump distance rubbish and replace it with a change to the polarization mechanics to make each jump have a timer. I am not saying that every jump should be 4 minutes, but something like 1 minute on the first jump and then if you jump back within 4 minutes, like now you then have a 4 minute timer.
I would also like it if the timer started counting down after you de-cloak and you have a visual indication on the UI of how much time is remaining on that timer.
I believe that this will increase risk for capitals on WH as they will have to de-cloak and sit there for 1 minute with their arse in the air before jumping back to "safety". If the WH residents are on the ball and the capital gets jumped, the aggressors will have to try and burn it down within a minute (not very likely) or make a choice on whether or not they jump through to follow as they will be polarized on the other side for a minute.
Anyway this is just an idea I have been playing with and I wanted to keep this whole discussion going.
Thanks.
The current mass change done in Hyperion is fine.
A small group with lokis or rapiers can now actively be a threat to WH collapsers, and also have more time to scan down those eager to quickly close their WH.
Keeping large ships near the WH, even with a 1mn timer, would simply make it too safe again to collapse WHs. "surrender your ego, be free". innuendo.
solo? There is a new hope http://turamarths-evelife.blogspot.com/2014/05/ok-now-im-betting-man.html |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
200
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 17:36:00 -
[2193] - Quote
Saisin wrote:The current mass change done in Hyperion is fine.
A small group with lokis or rapiers can now actively be a threat to WH collapsers, and also have more time to scan down those eager to quickly close their WH.
Keeping large ships near the WH, even with a 1mn timer, would simply make it too safe again to collapse WHs.
Single dictor / HIC + single dread = dead capital with the current mechanics.
Or you could jump a carrier in first, cloak, then jump back when someone tries to close it with another capital.
What if there were sleepers on both sides of the wormhole, like nullsec gate rats? Amount and size would depend on a combination of "your" hole, and the other hole. Increased risk, like CCP wanted, and they can remove the spawn distance, like anyone with a brain who lives in wormholes wants. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
813
|
Posted - 2014.09.12 22:18:00 -
[2194] - Quote
Saisin wrote: The current mass change done in Hyperion is fine.
A small group with lokis or rapiers can now actively be a threat to WH collapsers, and also have more time to scan down those eager to quickly close their WH.
Keeping large ships near the WH, even with a 1mn timer, would simply make it too safe again to collapse WHs.
But the flip side also applies - small groups are utterly ****** if they open into a larger group who is active and they want to close - whereas the bigger corps can send in a dozen jamming tengus, etc. and keep you from pointing/webbing the capital on its way back to the hole if they really wanted.
Plus the point I and other have been trying to make in that the larger majority of the time those people simply aren't there to bring in lokis and rapiers, etc. and catch me collapsing - while I'm not the most prolific WH collapser in eve over the last almost 5 years I've collapsed 100s of WHs and so far to my recollection only twice has anyone even been there to try and catch us - one of those times ending badly for them as half their forces jumped ahead to try and catch the orca and the orca coming back cut the other half including their logis off. |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 03:53:00 -
[2195] - Quote
So how does this work? Do we have to hit over 100 pages in this thread before CCP realizes that we don't like/want mass based spawn distances? |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
84
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 06:01:00 -
[2196] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:So how does this work? Do we have to hit over 100 pages AGAIN in this thread before CCP realizes that we don't like/want mass based spawn distances?
Fixed
It doesn't matter at this point. I don't think ccp has any plans on rolling this back no matter what we say. So some people will grumble but adapt. Some will grumble and leave. Of course the main reason I have opposed this change is BECAUSE I dont want people to have a reason to leave. But it is what it is now. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
815
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 13:05:00 -
[2197] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Scrubnbubble wrote:So how does this work? Do we have to hit over 100 pages AGAIN in this thread before CCP realizes that we don't like/want mass based spawn distances? Fixed It doesn't matter at this point. I don't think ccp has any plans on rolling this back no matter what we say. So some people will grumble but adapt. Some will grumble and leave. Of course the main reason I have opposed this change is BECAUSE I dont want people to have a reason to leave. But it is what it is now.
For me its not so much that I don't like the change - I don't like the change and it seems ill fitting to me based on years of living in wormholes - but I also recognise that sometimes changes have to come for one reason or another that I don't like but that is where the rub is - there has been no dialog, no addressing concerns*, etc. its just been rammed through regardless and in the long term that is in no way a good thing for the game - even if it does somehow end up having a net positive effect.
* Would be different if it was just general grumbling but some people have made very well reasoned arguments with some pertinent considerations that simply should not have been left unaddressed - even if the points they brought up were invalid (not saying they were). |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
55
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 14:37:00 -
[2198] - Quote
If your sitting in a bucket of crap just because you get used to it dose not make it any less of a bucket of crap.
They asked for well reasoned ideas and explanations of why we did not like the changes and which ones. They were put forth several times in this thread with great reasoning why and it comes down to the fact that the only two things about last patch were disliked or just useless
Mass jump distances are greatly disliked due to it forcing some players out of j space or just going inactive
Frig holes are frowned at and kinda useless to a point although i have seen some corps using them to get fights.
The ball is now in ccp's court. I really wish some of the actual DEV"S Would Create a few Toons and move into Wormholes and live here for a year or two. That is the only way to see what and were we need stuff Since they don't Listen to The Pilots That live there . Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 15:45:00 -
[2199] - Quote
Any dev is welcome to join my corp, then you can see just how small corps try to function in WH space now. |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
28
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 19:17:00 -
[2200] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:Any dev is welcome to join my corp, then you can see just how small corps try to function in WH space now.
Fozzie might be bored running levle 4s in his Kronos.
|
|
Dreekus
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 20:58:00 -
[2201] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:(...) I'm watching all those numbers very carefully. We've also been sharing a lot of stats with the CSM (The CSM in general and Corbexx in particular have been very helpful in working with us to ensure we watch all the right things), and we may be able to put some of them into a blog or something similar for public consumption at some point.
Cannot wait for such blog. It will prove if we were mostly right or not. I still hope that I was wrong and it was overall positive change but still wonder what was aim for such change and what statistics will be taken in to account. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
62
|
Posted - 2014.09.13 21:08:00 -
[2202] - Quote
Mr. Dreekus! Show me your face! |
Delekon
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
0
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 19:27:00 -
[2203] - Quote
Apocrypha was good while it lasted, the best moments i ever enjoyed in a game.
Now the Hyperion exodus has begun with high-end space turning into a desert. As the drought started the herbivores (carebares) left first and now the carnivores are following suite. It must be hard to trash an area of the game the size of lowsec in a matter of weeks.
Main thoughts: 1. When a space is suffering, you should add more content instead of making living there even harder. 2. Trust the community and listen to it's demands. They may not be game design experts but they do know a lot of things. 3. Keep the agenda transparent: saying you like emergent gameplay and then driving pilots away does not build up trust. 4. When an idea does not work out: be mature, admit guilt and roll back. Now we have a whole community suffering and leaving over someone's pride as a designer.
For the record i have no clue if this idea was good or bad, i just worry about how feedback was handled and how the community was treated. The fact that pilots are leaving is what is bothering me! Strike 1 was the nestor, strike 2 was the wh jump distances, i wonder what is in store for 0.0... |
God Arthie
Steel and Strong Wormhole Holders
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 21:28:00 -
[2204] - Quote
Just wanted to thank CCP once again. Today we had the luck of rolling for 6 hours, to only see 2~3 combat anomalies with 4~6 wormholes in them, wanna know what happened ? No farm, no pvp, NOTHING. And we just rolled another sh**hole. Another day to log off at the POS with hands full of nothing. (yeah, we got to kill 1 afk domi in the morning, but for that I should consider +3h of rolling).
I'm just curious, how it is even possible, having a WH CSM moving out of WH's, CCP, do you even understand that even OUR representative can't continue to be in WH because of the sh***y changes? |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 21:50:00 -
[2205] - Quote
God Arthie wrote:Just wanted to thank CCP once again. Today we had the luck of rolling for 6 hours, to only see 2~3 combat anomalies with 4~6 wormholes in them, wanna know what happened ? No farm, no pvp, NOTHING. And we just rolled another sh**hole. Another day to log off at the POS with hands full of nothing. (yeah, we got to kill 1 afk domi in the morning, but for that I should consider +3h of rolling).
I'm just curious, how it is even possible, having a WH CSM moving out of WH's, CCP, do you even understand that even OUR representative can't continue to be in WH because of the sh***y changes?
Wouldnt it be nice if CCP was just as in touch with their community as Star Citizen is with theirs? and that with a game not even out yet..
The lack of feedback and communication is a utter failure on their parts imho. Silent treatment is something you give misbheaving kids, not your paying subscribers. When you been playing this game for like forever, it's not so much about play for the sake of the game anylonger, but because of the people you play with. Wrecking things doesn't necessary get fixed easy with a patch once damage is done.
We haven't necessary rolled our static that many times today, but we scanned A LOT, and got longer chains that what is sensible. Found some guys in a c4 and was playing a bit, but you can't really re-ship to match the oposition when your home system is like 10 jumps away.
|
Moloney
Faceless Men
152
|
Posted - 2014.09.14 21:53:00 -
[2206] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote: The ball is now in ccp's court. I really wish some of the actual DEV"S Would Create a few Toons and move into Wormholes and live here for a year or two. That is the only way to see what and were we need stuff Since they don't Listen to The Pilots That live there .
This, except with one change. Clone toons from a specific corp. and remember to assign at lease two toons per real person. |
God Arthie
Steel and Strong Wormhole Holders
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 07:19:00 -
[2207] - Quote
Well, it's "easy to live" in WH, so I think only with 1 alt they can farm, salvage, pvp, scout holes(both new and wait on current to see if someone is coming). On the other hand, why would dev's leave their golden platted houses (located in null) to see that currently living in WH's is only worth it if you have at least 10~20 online members. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1863
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 07:32:00 -
[2208] - Quote
We rolled our static c5 several times yesterday and I was the dread pilot. We used the bounce point and sling shot tactic and i have to say that it was quite enjoyable. Yes it took longer than it did before hyperion but I think it's good that the process is a bit more complicated and risky.
As far as risk goes, you are only in danger when rolling incoming or old wormholes, which is only a big deal for people who want to close themselves off. However, if the rewards gained by closing yourself off aren't big enough, people aren't going to take the risk in the first place.
I don't think the mass based spawn mechanics should be rolled back. I think more rewards should be added to balance the risk. +1 |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
135
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 08:46:00 -
[2209] - Quote
Rolled into SSC a few days ago. Only had ~7 people online. Had to call it a day. gg Lot's of content was created.... NOT.
Whether you can roll a hole or not depends on whether you can fight the group that's on the other side. Not only is it possible that they simply have superior numbers, it's also their home system which means they can bring as many caps as they want. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1864
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 08:57:00 -
[2210] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:Rolled into SSC a few days ago. Only had ~7 people online. Had to call it a day. gg Lot's of content was created.... NOT.
Why didn't you immediately roll the connection? Did they already have probes out when you connected?
SSC aren't that scary +1 |
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Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
152
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 11:10:00 -
[2211] - Quote
I asked a few times already, can someone, ANYONE, from CCP PLEASE comment on how much longer your 'data collection' and 'feedback analysis' will take?
Simpl question: Will you roll back?
possible answers: YES, NO, Maybe
If NO, SAY IT PLS If YES, SAY IT PLS
if MAYBE, PLEASE TELL US WHEN (approx) YOU WILL DECIDE (days, weeks, months, after the door opens)
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
468
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 12:29:00 -
[2212] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:We rolled our static c5 several times yesterday and I was the dread pilot. We used the bounce point and sling shot tactic and i have to say that it was quite enjoyable. Yes it took longer than it did before hyperion but I think it's good that the process is a bit more complicated and risky. As far as risk goes, you are only in danger when rolling incoming or old wormholes, which is only a big deal for people who want to close themselves off. However, if the rewards gained by closing yourself off aren't big enough, people aren't going to take the risk in the first place. I don't think the mass based spawn mechanics should be rolled back. I think more rewards should be added to balance the risk.
That's where you are missing it. I don't want to be molested by a priest and then handed a bag of jelly beans. A bag of jelly beans doesn't make it OK.
"As far as risk goes, you are only in danger...." You don't get risk. The risk involved in rolling a wh is a fixed value. That fixed value is the value of the ships you roll with. That risk is incurred the second said ship is in warp to the wh.
What you are discussing is safety margin. Think of it as the % chance you are going to get away with rolling the wh without losing the assets you are rolling with. We could discuss safety margin for quite some time - there are a lot of variables that could possibly go into it. I'll only address 2 here.
Safety Margin #1 - The guys going for your ships will have to go 'all in' to ensure they get you. This used to be a relatively large safety margin. Not many corps were willing to or had the assets to go 'all in' and wonk someone in their home wh knowing the only thing at their back is a closed wh. This is the safety margin that was TOTALLY REMOVED with the mass range stuff. This is why a lot of folks are pissed. Risk was shared between both parties. 'We're bringing the ships to the wh to roll it, but you may have to go all in to take them from us' There are also ramifications when jumping in to a wh for pvp, but that's a different discussion.
Safety Margin #2 - You are putting various amounts of safety margin on both incoming and old wh. I'll voice what I think your assumptions are. Incoming - they get there first and can cloak up a single loki on the wh (which post hyperion is all that is needed to tackle your loot pinata... er rolling capital. Old wh I'm guessing are pretty much the same - there is a lot of time for someone to cloak up a single ship that will hold your roller until the wonking fleet arrives. The values each corp assign to these factors are based on a lot of things. Your corp size (guys on line at the time of the decision) has a lot to do with the value you put on that . What you know it to be isn't by definition what another guy knows it to be.
Where you state that 'you are only in danger when rolling incoming and old wh'... do you offer some form of free SRP for ships lost rolling fresh wh to go along w/ your guarantee of no danger? Where do I sign up? |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1865
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 12:41:00 -
[2213] - Quote
If you have scanned a fresh hole, jumped in, and do not see any probes on scan. There is zero risk in rolling as long as the situations doesn't change. +1 |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
468
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 14:43:00 -
[2214] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:If you have scanned a fresh hole, jumped in, and do not see any probes on scan. There is next to zero risk in rolling as long as the situations doesn't change. The risks were not balanced befor Hyperion. The guys who got their caps and HIC to the wormhole first, could dictate the engagement. Nine times out of ten, when you jumped a cap you appeared in jump range on the other side. Yes we replace all ships that are lost during an official operation. However, we would not cover the cost of your stupidity, should you decide to roll a hole that has been open for 16 hours or you see probes on scan. Contact one of our diplomats if you would like to know more.
Heh, I didn't mean do you replace all your ships. Will you replace mine if I roll a fresh wh and it goes bad? I was just kidding about that part.
Risks pre hyperion:
Roller- 100% of rolling ships were at risk the second they entered warp to a wh. Ganker- 0% if you chose not to engage up to 100% if you chose to go all in.
Risks post hyper:
Roller - same 100% for the same reasons Ganker - pretty much 0%. Assuming the ganking fleet can tackle, web and bump a rolling ship that spawns out of jump range.
This is for wh rolling. Jumping in w/ a fleet for pvp is a whole different discussion and a whole different set of risks. Every point/bubble the roller brings through the wh adds risk to the ganking fleet. I'm assuming a rolling fleet is just rolling and that an unpointed ship will have the sense to warp away before it gets popped.
And to expand on my jelly bean theme. I don't want a fix or a work around for this. I want a roll back. That's me and what I want. I'm ok w/ other folks having other views. I'm NOT ok with folks not understanding and miss representing what the actual risks are. There are a lot of folks breaking this down incorrectly and putting it out as fact. Just trying to keep it clear. |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol Ixtab.
1865
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 15:08:00 -
[2215] - Quote
I don't think you're gonna get a rollback so you shouldn't waste your time asking for one.
I don't think your risk evaluation is remotely correct if we're talking about rolling a c5. Pre hyperion, when were you ever at risk rolling a fresh hole? ...assuming you had no hostile holes already in your system.
If we were unsure if a carrier trap had been set, we would simply jump the orca first. Granted the orca would probably die but at least the carrier was safe. +1 |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
6
|
Posted - 2014.09.15 16:43:00 -
[2216] - Quote
Mass-Based Spawn Distance needs to go for multiple reasons, not just rolling holes.
Most people fly covert ops in WH space, it used to be that you ran a risk going through a hole and spawning too close to it to cloak up. Now there is NO risk as you're always placed far enough away where you can cloak up and easily maneuver through anyone camping the other side. We've missed multiple kills so far due to this, and we've been able to safely live due to this. No fights were had, no one died.
Rolling holes is harder. Not that big of a deal for the large corps, but I think this REALLY effects the small corps (like us). Yeah you can try and close a hole quickly once you open your fresh static. But you alienate the small corps which I would say makes up the majority of WH space by not allowing them to manage their own space like they previously have been able to do. We had a C4 spawn into our hole and the corp tried to close the hole. They brought in two BS, we had our hic ready. We caught both of them in the bubble but they were SO FAR APART from each other we could only manage to get point on one before the other one burned 3KM out of the hic bubble and got away. I mean, when they went through the hole they were like 40KM away from each other. If this was pre hyperion they would of been forced to fight and bring in reinforcements to save the ships (which they had). But instead, they let one die so they could get the other one out.
And the worst thing this has done is change the WH culture that everyone is used to and loves. WH space is known for it's close combat brawling on holes, that's what people love, that's what people skilled up for. In trying to fix "rage rolling" which really isn't that big of a deal (imo) CCP changed the culture in a big way that the community DOES NOT LIKE. You're lucky if you can get a fight on a hole. It's EASY to get away. And you've screwed the little guys in the process by not allowing them to manage their own space. CCP has turned WH space into Null with no local, literally, that's just about what it is now. |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
56
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 01:24:00 -
[2217] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:Mass-Based Spawn Distance needs to go for multiple reasons, not just rolling holes.
Most people fly covert ops in WH space, it used to be that you ran a risk going through a hole and spawning too close to it to cloak up. Now there is NO risk as you're always placed far enough away where you can cloak up and easily maneuver through anyone camping the other side. We've missed multiple kills so far due to this, and we've been able to safely live due to this. No fights were had, no one died.
Rolling holes is harder. Not that big of a deal for the large corps, but I think this REALLY effects the small corps (like us). Yeah you can try and close a hole quickly once you open your fresh static. But you alienate the small corps which I would say makes up the majority of WH space by not allowing them to manage their own space like they previously have been able to do. We had a C4 spawn into our hole and the corp tried to close the hole. They brought in two BS, we had our hic ready. We caught both of them in the bubble but they were SO FAR APART from each other we could only manage to get point on one before the other one burned 3KM out of the hic bubble and got away. I mean, when they went through the hole they were like 40KM away from each other. If this was pre hyperion they would of been forced to fight and bring in reinforcements to save the ships (which they had). But instead, they let one die so they could get the other one out.
And the worst thing this has done is change the WH culture that everyone is used to and loves. WH space is known for it's close combat brawling on holes, that's what people love, that's what people skilled up for. In trying to fix "rage rolling" which really isn't that big of a deal (imo) CCP changed the culture in a big way that the community DOES NOT LIKE. You're lucky if you can get a fight on a hole. It's EASY to get away. And you've screwed the little guys in the process by not allowing them to manage their own space. CCP has turned WH space into Null with no local, literally, that's just about what it is now.
Agree and second Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
Firefox4312 Yatolila
Nex Exercitus Northern Coalition.
54
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 06:21:00 -
[2218] - Quote
97 pages later, and almost 2000 posts later. You would think CCP might take into account everything, but they wont. :(
Guess WHs are ****** for the time being until CCP decides to listen to people. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
62
|
Posted - 2014.09.16 16:42:00 -
[2219] - Quote
Meh. Rolling for isk takes too much time... Aren't we supposed to make isk to buy ships and lose them in a blaze of glory? Now we'll be so poor, we'll have to pew in fw frigs ;)
Edit: typo |
Jack Branigan
Deadspace Knights Galactic Skyfleet Empire
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 13:20:00 -
[2220] - Quote
Firefox4312 Yatolila wrote:97 pages later, and almost 2000 posts later. You would think CCP might take into account everything, but they wont. :(
Guess WHs are ****** for the time being until CCP decides to listen to people.
Good to see that CCP is taking the approach of "hey maybe if we just say nothing they will get bored and will stop posting eventually..."
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Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
106
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 13:45:00 -
[2221] - Quote
Unfortunately it became quiet in this thread, but guess most of the wormhole comunicty is mature enough to not just cry and repeat the same things again and again.
So far we as a small corp in a low-class wormhole have adapted to the changes, which means honestly less activity overall (including offlining towers so far) and some even ask if we shall abondon the wormhole completely, but with the remaining activity we can live as we have alts for playing in Hi and LowSec when we can't do anything interesting in the wormholes. Yes, we just sit there in CovOps and wait, because as a small Group we can not / don't want to watch 5+ wormholes at the same time, so we only do PvE stuff when we have max. 3 wormholes. And we as well don't want to scann 2 hours of our online timer for scanning down the whole chain and finding most of the time nothing or people hiding behind POS / Cloaks as soon as a new signature pops up. Yes a lot of people became more paranoid is what I tend to see. And PvP Stuff has become less, even those daytrippers from HiSec are less than before as a lot of low-class (C1-C3) wormholes are full of anomalies and signatures, doesn't matter if there are online Towers or in many cases no online towers at all.
We even had killed some ships due to the new wormhole-mass-based-spawndistance Thing, because they just had no Chance. But it was just camping some Hi-Sec Exits in corresponding ships (insta-lock+some dps). But that was not funny, more a waste of time due to be bored like hell in our home-wh. It's even more boring than a Gate camp of a well frequented K-Space-Jumpgate. Will not continue that stuff and I am sure most of the killed guys will not get back to wormholes if that was their first step into the wormholes. I'm quite sure It's defenitely not the Kind of conflict WH comunity is looking for, because in that case we would live in k-space. And on weekend we found a wormhole with an exit just 2 jumps from Jita and in some hours we had not even one visitor, even though there have been probes nearly all the time in the hi-sec System (yes they changed ;) ). That's not common compared to what I have seen the last 2 years!
Rei Moon wrote:Meh. Rolling for isk takes too much time... 1) Aren't we supposed to make isk to buy ships and lose them in a blaze of glory? 2) Now we'll be so poor, we'll have to pew in fw frigs ;)
1) No! We are supposed to earn less ISK and pay more USD/EUR, i.e. buying more Plex and founding our ships to loose that way. CCP is on a good way to pay to win at the moment. Now you may wonder, why they want to see more People in 0.0 doing PvE. That's just the first step of a bigger plan they have for I don't know mid-term or long-term future and the majority of non-0.0-players are probably not aware of. I as well just heared more or less a small piece of Information, because I just don't care about 0.0.
2) Not according to CCP, but that's the back door they leave intentionally or not open for those who just don't buy Plex with real money maybe, so they can at least fight in frigs. But I think that was not the Point of the frig wormholes. They were 99% designed for a specific 0.0 block maybe?!?
I at least would appreciate to read in this thread sooner or later from a Dev what their conclusion is some weeks after releasing the patch. Do they just read and ignore (which seems to be the case) or do they plan some changes on the wormhole-patches? |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
473
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 17:01:00 -
[2222] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:I don't think you're gonna get a rollback so you shouldn't waste your time asking for one.
I don't think your risk evaluation is remotely correct if we're talking about rolling a c5. Pre hyperion, when were you ever at risk rolling a fresh hole? ...assuming you had no hostile holes already in your system and there wasn't a t3 fleet with cap support waiting for you on the hole.
If we were unsure if a carrier trap had been set, we would simply jump the orca first to see the hole reduced. Granted the orca would probably die but at least the carrier was safe. This is just one of the many things you could do to mitigate the risk.
So you're pointing out I wasn't at risk rolling a wh, but then putting the following disclaimers: 1. fresh wh 2. no other hostile wh in your system 3. there wasn't a t3 w/ cap support waiting on the other side
Um... ok you're right and I'm wrong????
(I put on my Captain Obvious costume)
You are safe when you are not in danger.
(I bow to the crowed after awakening them to this astonishing fact)
I'm not going to argue back and forth. I'll summarize my thoughts and leave it at that. Pre hyperion rolling mechanics where fine and created many many fine fights. It's one of the foundations of wh living that made it a great place to play space pilots in space. Now we're on page 90 something of the second thread that proclaims the change is teh suxors. We can't all be wrong. I choose to not accept what is bad. I choose to not attempt to meet a bad change half way with some screwy compromise. It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it. That's pretty much all there is to say about it. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
153
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 18:58:00 -
[2223] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote: It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
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Tiger Tesla
Periphery Bound Dominatus Atrum Mortis
41
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 20:09:00 -
[2224] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
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Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
204
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 21:03:00 -
[2225] - Quote
Fozzie releases a devblog touting their wonderful job with burner missions, and not a peep about wormholes, nor any recent DEV responses that are constructive.
CCP wants us to post constructive feedback? Fine. But you also have to post something constructive; something other than "we are watching" because that is not constructive either. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1220
|
Posted - 2014.09.17 23:53:00 -
[2226] - Quote
Tiger Tesla wrote:Enthropic wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
13
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 00:56:00 -
[2227] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Tiger Tesla wrote:Enthropic wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
|
God Arthie
Steel and Strong Wormhole Holders
9
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 07:39:00 -
[2228] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Tiger Tesla wrote:Enthropic wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it.
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Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
138
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 08:59:00 -
[2229] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Tiger Tesla wrote:Enthropic wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote: It wasn't needed. It wasn't wanted. It sux. Get rid of it. "You can only quote 5 times in a single post." Damnit! |
LastRound
The Not Elite Four
3
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 15:15:00 -
[2230] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote: "You can only quote 5 times in a single post." Damnit!
|
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Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.18 17:01:00 -
[2231] - Quote
LastRound wrote:Jessica Duranin wrote: "You can only quote 5 times in a single post." Damnit!
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Tiger Tesla
Periphery Bound Dominatus Atrum Mortis
44
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 16:38:00 -
[2232] - Quote
I really wish that CCP would acknowledge the wormhole community with something. It has been over two weeks since Fozzie has said anything to the wormhole community, and in that time he has made 11 posts in the features and ideas section to work on the next update.
CCP Fozzie, please don't simply move on to the next update. There is a tight nit community that wants to know what CCP thinks about how the changes are effecting wormhole life. And the last thing you said to us is that we are not being ignored. I hope that the summit will help shed light on how these changes affect active wormholers.
The main problem isn't even the changes, it is how the community has been treated. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
69
|
Posted - 2014.09.20 16:57:00 -
[2233] - Quote
Are you guys seriously still going on about this? :D
This change was just fine, and accomplished exactly what CCP intended- making farmers less willing to seal their farmholes.
Everyone else is unaffected.
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
64
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 03:03:00 -
[2234] - Quote
Everybody who is still in wormhole space is farming. Even more now since less people are rage rolling. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
64
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 03:04:00 -
[2235] - Quote
One thing is certain Hyperion didn't bring more people into wspace. A few bears maybe. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1227
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 22:24:00 -
[2236] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Are you guys seriously still going on about this? :D
This change was just fine, and accomplished exactly what CCP intended- making farmers less willing to seal their farmholes.
Everyone else is unaffected.
i am really quite impressed, it takes a real capacity for someone to entirely missunderstand every single argument, point and effect. After over 130 combined pages. Glad you are ok, but you don't actually have any experience of living in a wormhole? Do you? Because if you do I will be even more impressed with your abilities to remain so disconnected from reality.
Never mind, hey? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
59
|
Posted - 2014.09.21 23:56:00 -
[2237] - Quote
lol i would be a bad csm..
CCP would kick me out of the game...i will restate my thoughts b4
Quote: I think enough has been said that CCP knows we do not Like One of the changes and its hurting our space. Now it is just a matter of seeing if they care enough to back up a few changes or make more constructive changes to Pull Players back into w space.
Here are a few of my ideas.
1. Sleepers faction Drops= this will Give us officer / faction drops same as other space and will drive ppl into whs to hunt for them.
2. A higher class wh like a c7 that has massive mass whs that you can move a proper cap fleet and support fleet to run sleeper sites with capital sleepers and get back out . We will be able to have large fleet fights as well in there. Make The class 7 with no moons so it can not be "lived" in and multiple connections
3. Make lower class wh sleeper drops better and more worth while to run. this is class 1-3 also let make a few more of the triggers random to take out the boring predictable assembly line style of running sights. Maybe give them some escalations as well if you warp in bs's or caps for all class sites
That is all i have for now but a few constructive ideas for you to look over Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
154
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 08:41:00 -
[2238] - Quote
Quote: 2. A higher class wh like a c7 that has massive mass whs that you can move a proper cap fleet and support fleet to run sleeper sites with capital sleepers and get back out . We will be able to have large fleet fights as well in there. Make The class 7 with no moons so it can not be "lived" in and multiple connections So basically a faster way for the big corps to seed caps into someone's system? Hmm... I'm sure Lazerhawks would love that. |
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
72
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 13:04:00 -
[2239] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote: i am really quite impressed, it takes a real capacity for someone to entirely missunderstand every single argument, point and effect. After over 130 combined pages. Glad you are ok, but you don't actually have any experience of living in a wormhole? Do you? Because if you do I will be even more impressed with your abilities to remain so disconnected from reality. And just moving into a C4 since hyperion does not count as experienced.
I've lived in C2>C3+HS, C2>C2+LS, C3>LS, C4>C3, C5>C3, C5>C5 in addition to the current C4>C4+C2 starting from early 2011, which was approx 2.5 years before your character was created.
I've sieged, been sieged, flown in the headline-making biggest blobs of w-space, FCd, soloed, farmed and lead a wh corp. I sure as hell do have ******* "experience" and I've literally had it with the current whiney-ass mentality on this sad excuse of a subforum.
This mass-spawn whine is the just the most ridiculous recent example of the mentality. No, it did not "kill w-space" or even radically changed it, if you are unhappy about it just pack your toys and go back to Rescuing the Damsel and do us all a favour- shut the **** up.
|
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
819
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 13:16:00 -
[2240] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote: or even radically changed it
Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the rest of your points this is just wrong - it has radically shifted the balance in the possibilities for smaller entities to manipulate the wormhole terrain to have half a chance when faced with a larger entity. |
|
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
8275
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 15:10:00 -
[2241] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote: I want to remind people that the best way to have your views heard is to state your case calmly, politely and with logical reasoning.
You must be new here
|
Aiyshimin
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
74
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 15:44:00 -
[2242] - Quote
Rroff wrote:Aiyshimin wrote: or even radically changed it Regardless of the merits or otherwise of the rest of your points this is just wrong - it has radically shifted the balance in the possibilities for smaller entities to manipulate the wormhole terrain to have half a chance when faced with a larger entity. Which has a fairly sizeable knock on effect - should see the number of people who open into us and go "nope" and log off because they assume rightly or wrongly any attempt to collapse would result in a one sided loss of ships. I've also noticed since these changes have come in that increasingly people in the alliance - even more than in the past - are resorting to hunting for targets in nullsec, its probably made things safer for people who have isolated themselves in w-space and/or don't have lots of active connections than ever before.
I don't argue that what you describe wouldn't be happening, but I disagree about it being a "radical change" of a grand scale. Based on my personal experience as part of a smaller entity in C5 space, opening into a bigger entity was an extremely rare occurence.
And I hope you also agree that going "nope" and logging off has a lot to do with attitude. Why not see if they can get a few kills? This I don't understand.
Don't have lots of active connections? Amount of wormholes are increased massively, or is that not the case in C5s? Dual-static space at least is littered with open connections. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
820
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 17:23:00 -
[2243] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote: Don't have lots of active connections? Amount of wormholes are increased massively, or is that not the case in C5s? Dual-static space at least is littered with open connections.
As with most things concerning wormhole spawns, etc. some days you'll have very limited connectivity, if you close your static on those days and bear or whatever your now as a generalisation safer than ever as there are less people bothering to chain collapse to find stuff to shoot at - people seem to be more inclined to use null connections more than ever to find stuff to pew rather than spend ages mapping the more complex chains or rolling the static with the extra effort involved.
As for attitude its a mixed one - we had blue-fire connect to us the other day and they still went for it despite having 4 people online and us having several times that but thats more of an exception than a rule - most people with 3-4 people online opened to someone with 20 active pilots will feel quite limited in what they can do without it being outright suicide whether that is trying to collapse the link or finding stuff to do further down the chain. In the past they could with moderate and proportionally manageable risk collapse the link and try and find something they were more suited to engaging (or just go back to bearing). |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
496
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 17:42:00 -
[2244] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:Are you guys seriously still going on about this? :D
This change was just fine, and accomplished exactly what CCP intended- making farmers less willing to seal their farmholes.
Everyone else is unaffected.
PVP yesterday. Engagement focussed around our carrier and sleip fleet vs their carrier and T3 fleet.
Long story short - pre hyperion we would have dropped our carrier into their wh and punched above our weight class for a bit. Maybe winning maybe losing, but at least we would have been fighting. Post hyperion we both swapped going into the others home wh w/ our subcaps and jumping back to stay alive. Neither side commited a capital because it would have been thrown away to the opposing fleet.
As it was we lost a sleipnir to bumping and webs. Had we put a carrier in it would have been taken by their to the dreads they put on the wh. Had they put a cap into us we would have reshiped to dreads and killed it.
So when you mean unaffected you are wrong. We had a slap fight but didn't escallate because it would have just been throwing a carrier away. This is the new norm. It's a big change. It's a bad one. Unless you have overwheling force you end up hole hugging under the shadow of your carrier. It was like hugging a HS wh except instead of concord having your back in HS it's your carrier having your back in your home c5.
We deffo didn't have enough personell to take down 2 dreads, a carrier and 5 or so assorted T3. The felt they didn't have enough to commit in our hole either. Mass/range induced standoff. It sucked.
We both gave the subcaps across the wh a go, saw it was futile and withdrew. Personally I went afk and took my wife out to dinner, one guy went to work, and another guy went for a run. This change sux! |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1229
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 19:24:00 -
[2245] - Quote
Aiyshimin wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote: i am really quite impressed, it takes a real capacity for someone to entirely missunderstand every single argument, point and effect. After over 130 combined pages. Glad you are ok, but you don't actually have any experience of living in a wormhole? Do you? Because if you do I will be even more impressed with your abilities to remain so disconnected from reality. And just moving into a C4 since hyperion does not count as experienced.
I've lived in C2>C3+HS, C2>C2+LS, C3>LS, C4>C3, C5>C3, C5>C5 in addition to the current C4>C4+C2 starting from early 2011, which was approx 2.5 years before your character was created. I've sieged, been sieged, flown in the headline-making biggest blobs of w-space, FCd, soloed, farmed and lead a wh corp. I sure as hell do have ******* "experience" and I've literally had it with the current whiney-ass mentality on this sad excuse of a subforum. This mass-spawn whine is the just the most ridiculous recent example of the mentality. No, it did not "kill w-space" or even radically changed it, if you are unhappy about it just pack your toys and go back to Rescuing the Damsel and do us all a favour- shut the **** up.
No, suprisingly I do not agree with you, go figure?
If you do not like hearing other peoples view of hyperion, go spin on a pos or something. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
20
|
Posted - 2014.09.22 21:14:00 -
[2246] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:Quote: 2. A higher class wh like a c7 that has massive mass whs that you can move a proper cap fleet and support fleet to run sleeper sites with capital sleepers and get back out . We will be able to have large fleet fights as well in there. Make The class 7 with no moons so it can not be "lived" in and multiple connections So basically a faster way for the big corps to seed caps into someone's system? Hmm... I'm sure Lazerhawks would love that.
Lazerhawks scare me |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
59
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 01:02:00 -
[2247] - Quote
there would actually be no reason to seed caps in there as no one would live in a c7 as there is no moons and the mass is large enough to just move caps around Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
20
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 01:46:00 -
[2248] - Quote
How about a C7 that you can easily fit titans through, and then the last escalation is a huge drone base like the ones you find the wrecks of in missions. It requires multiple titans and doomsday devices to take down. I'm thinking.... something along the lines of a huge base with sleepers spewing out of it, like a scene from the matrix. A place where titans go to die... pve wise.
|
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
59
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 02:34:00 -
[2249] - Quote
that would be interesting to say the least.. Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
501
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 02:37:00 -
[2250] - Quote
Folks would just log of their farming caps/fleet. The guy w/ the most stuff gets more stuff. TBH AU would have the advantage due to TZ and it would get less appealing as the earth spins passed down time.
You want a wh c7 make it a wandering wh w/ no statick. 8 bil mass, no sites and no moons. Or maybe a random static. Name the system king of the hill.
If you want titan gameplay and free isk... spoon up w/ cfc. Introducing a c7 would just mean more isk for bigger groups. That's it, plain and simple.
If you're too big and too awesome for small gang wh stuff... Have some class like SYJ did and go to LS and play w/ your toys. I have a lot of respect for those guys going to where their game is played instead of trying to bend wh to their play style/needs. And.... they seem to be having fun/success. |
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1229
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 03:42:00 -
[2251] - Quote
I think the idea of a C7 is going in the wrong direction, we need to be encouraging people into wormhole space, not giving Null a new incursion that they don't want to do anyway.
There needs to be gameplay that is rewarding for individuals and small corps, not provide gameplay that ONLY rewards the big groups, although the big groups need activities for their induviduals too.
The frigate wormholes have provided far less than they are capable of, if they led to Frigate wormhole space, balanced around highly rewarding individual and small group discovery then we may be getting somewhere. That would be far better C7 space than just "bigger and meaner." And both large and small groups would find it a lot more fun than just worrying the miners and missioners in null when it's quiet.
Bigger is not always better. bring wormhole space back to life, lets fill it back up with people. Being able to earn well in order to lose it again is a lot more fun than struggling to replace losses. And Hyperion has done nothing to help that. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
588
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 08:30:00 -
[2252] - Quote
In the end no matter what we were going to do CCP would not have listened.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
27
|
Posted - 2014.09.23 17:53:00 -
[2253] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:Ahost Gceo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game. If you can, run some active statistics and see if the amount of jumps in w-space has declined since this update as people have left. Definitely will be interesting to see what destruction you have wrought. I'm watching all those numbers very carefully. We've also been sharing a lot of stats with the CSM (The CSM in general and Corbexx in particular have been very helpful in working with us to ensure we watch all the right things), and we may be able to put some of them into a blog or something similar for public consumption at some point.
Really? 3 weeks and not a peep. Its bad enough you s**t all over the one area of the sandbox that CCP said was working without this condescending 'Don't worry we care crap' |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1233
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 12:37:00 -
[2254] - Quote
Mindo Junde wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Ahost Gceo wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Hey everyone. I want to post to remind you guys that we're not ignoring this thread, we're continuing to follow all the feedback on the Hyperion changes, as well as watching metrics extremely closely.
I understand that for some of you the fact that I'm posting in this thread without announcing something new may be frustrating, but we also don't want to give the impression that we've stopped reading.
We can't promise that we'll always agree with each of you on every particular issue, but we will never stop accepting feedback and re-evaluating the state of the game. If you can, run some active statistics and see if the amount of jumps in w-space has declined since this update as people have left. Definitely will be interesting to see what destruction you have wrought. I'm watching all those numbers very carefully. We've also been sharing a lot of stats with the CSM (The CSM in general and Corbexx in particular have been very helpful in working with us to ensure we watch all the right things), and we may be able to put some of them into a blog or something similar for public consumption at some point. Really? 3 weeks and not a peep. Its bad enough you s**t all over the one area of the sandbox that CCP said was working without this condescending 'Don't worry we care crap'
Whatever ones views about the seriousness of this issue, The number of players who have gained any benefit from these changes are very limited in relation to negative effects on the overall wormhole population.
Nett movement of players:- empirical data definately indicates a greater loss than gain of residents. Check your Data Fozzie? Or is it a case of "didn't need those players anyway?"
Overall satisfaction with the update is phenomenally low, whilst there are many don't cares, there are many more who feel that Hyperion was bad for wormhole space overall. Very few if any unreserved congratulations exist. Just self congratulatory press releases that infuriated people.
Fozzie, respectfully, we do not want a Dev blog discussing your reasons, we want the bad changes rolled back, while keeping the neutral ones, as none were actually really of great benefit, apart from the sig consistancy over downtime. How sad is it, that for wormhole space, that was the best feature introduced?
As you have hopefully read ALL the opinions and listened to the CSM, you know what was a bad idea by now.
Rather than spending your time crafting a blog justifying bad or ill advised decisions, please spend that time actully delivering something that benefits wormhole space?
Thank you. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
8
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 15:17:00 -
[2255] - Quote
I've been watching this thread from the beginning and refrained from commenting thus far to see just how these changes have played out. Now though, to me at least, its becoming pretty clear that CCP isn't taking this thing very seriously at all. It seems like CCP is treating this thread as another case of "Well, nobody is replying anymore, so that means the players must have accepted these changes and all the [valid] complaints about it were just players whining for the sake of whining. We know what's best for them and this just proves it!"
No it doesn't CCP. As a lower class WH corp which occasionally dabbles in PVE and PVP in higher classes, after this patch it has become so tedious to find either A) people to shoot or B) a WH that has combats without 6+ other entrances to watch, that hardly any of our corp tends to log in anymore. We all have a limited amount of time to play EVE and most of us now choose not to spend that time scanning empty wormholes anymore. Now I know you're reading this and thinking "oh, just another person saying the same thing that happens every patch, let me just skip this post", but I do have to ask before you do that; is this the intended result of this change? To have a mass exodus of WH space? I'm sure many of those in this thead know what I'm talking about; we've all noticed how much more empty WH space is since this patch went live. I've even seen a couple of corps leaving WH space altogether and I've sometimes helped to scan them a way out!
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every system we visited before the patch had people or sites in, but as of the last couple of weeks now we can regularly go into chains 10+ deep and not find a single active POS or player. I'd really like to see these promised figures, because at the moment all the feedback we're getting seems to be empty promises. Is it because you are scared of what the numbers say? Or is it that although the amount of people living in WH space is less because of this, you consider the loss to be an acceptable margin and don't want to disclose such information in fear of a huge "Hah, we told you so!" backlash on the forums?
I'd put my money on the latter. I don't really expect a response or any of these promised figures to ever see the light of day, but could you at least do us the courtesy of replying to the several common complaints made time and time again in this thread rather than just saying "we're still watching the thread, don't worry!". It's starting to become a bit of a joke reading the same things over and over again and having no official response to some very worrying concerns that some of the other players in this thread have brought up so far.
EDIT: Also I'd like to add a massive +1 to everything epicurus ataraxia has said in this thread so far. It's a shame that none of this feedback seems to be making the slightest bit of difference! |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1233
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 15:26:00 -
[2256] - Quote
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:I've been watching this thread from the beginning and refrained from commenting thus far to see just how these changes have played out. Now though, to me at least, its becoming pretty clear that CCP isn't taking this thing very seriously at all. It seems like CCP is treating this thread as another case of "Well, nobody is replying anymore, so that means the players must have accepted these changes and all the [valid] complaints about it were just players whining for the sake of whining. We know what's best for them and this just proves it!"
No it doesn't CCP. As a lower class WH corp which occasionally dabbles in PVE and PVP in higher classes, after this patch it has become so tedious to find either A) people to shoot or B) a WH that has combats without 6+ other entrances to watch, that hardly any of our corp tends to log in anymore. We all have a limited amount of time to play EVE and most of us now choose not to spend that time scanning empty wormholes anymore. Now I know you're reading this and thinking "oh, just another person saying the same thing that happens every patch, let me just skip this post", but I do have to ask before you do that; is this the intended result of this change? To have a mass exodus of WH space? I'm sure many of those in this thead know what I'm talking about; we've all noticed how much more empty WH space is since this patch went live. I've even seen a couple of corps leaving WH space altogether and I've sometimes helped to scan them a way out!
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every system we visited before the patch had people or sites in, but as of the last couple of weeks now we can regularly go into chains 10+ deep and not find a single active POS or player. I'd really like to see these promised figures, because at the moment all the feedback we're getting seems to be empty promises. Is it because you are scared of what the numbers say? Or is it that although the amount of people living in WH space is less because of this, you consider the loss to be an acceptable margin and don't want to disclose such information in fear of a huge "Hah, we told you so!" backlash on the forums?
I'd put my money on the latter. I don't really expect a response or any of these promised figures to ever see the light of day, but could you at least do us the courtesy of replying to the several common complaints made time and time again in this thread rather than just saying "we're still watching the thread, don't worry!". It's starting to become a bit of a joke reading the same things over and over again and having no official response to some very worrying concerns that some of the other players in this thread have brought up so far.
EDIT: Also I'd like to add a massive +1 to everything epicurus ataraxia has said in this thread so far. It's a shame that none of this feedback seems to be making the slightest bit of difference!
Thank you for that, but 100 pages and counting says that people are still replying, and we are still seeing more and more empty systems, it is getting REALLY boring scanning, and hard to keep people doing it.
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Niskin
League of the Lost
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 16:59:00 -
[2257] - Quote
To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: "A developer has got to know its customer's limitations."
You cannot control the choices players make when you do not control the entire list of options they have to choose from. Every player has 2 options that they start with before CCP adds any to the list. They are "leave this space" and "quit the game." The former may be CCP's intention from time to time, for valid reasons. The latter should never be intended.
Players make choices based on their own limitations, such as: available playtime, available resources, available assistance from others and yes, of course, risk of loss. Of those limitations the only one CCP can affect directly is risk. The others can be indirectly affected but not in an immediate fashion.
So playtime is out of their control. If there were a graph of playtime mapped against fun, peak playtime would meet up with peak fun. If something is less fun, or to use a term repeated in this thread --tedious--, that reduces fun and reduces playtime. As some have mentioned, increased reward along with increased risk can balance out fun.
Available resources are out of their control, they aren't going to just dump isk in people's wallets. They can adjust the rate at which players can earn isk but the effect is not immediate.
Available assistance means friends online and is only directly affected by available playtime which is tied to fun.
That leaves risk, the one thing CCP can directly affect, so they grabbed it and wrenched it up to 11. When I say that I mean the combination of Mass-Based-Jump, Extra Statics, Extra Randoms, and Frig Holes. These features could all have merit in isolation, but together they kicked the risk up high enough that people are ignoring CCP's recommendation of "accept more risk" and choosing the always available "nah, I'll do something else." Anybody who had a proper understanding of the choices would have seen that coming.
So what happens now? Well the choice list for CCP is much shorter: Revert the changes, Keep the changes and hope new people move in, or Pick and choose and hope it's the right formula for fun. I don't know what the right formula would be, but it has to take into account that players first question on risk is "how much of the risk can I control for?" The question of "can I afford to lose this?" comes after you decide how much risk you are actually facing.
Any developer that fails to understand the limitations of what they actually have control over will force people into decisions that developer won't like in the end. You CANNOT force people to play a certain way, but you can force them to choose between playing that way or quitting.
One last thing to discuss. Why is CCP trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem that created the symptom? Rolling holes is not the problem, it's a player-made solution to the actual problem of having nothing to do until something changes. The choices were always: wait, logoff, or roll the hole. If you want to fix the actual problem, find a way for people that want fights to find them easier, and people who want isolation to find it easier. Then play with the variables on how long isolation can last, or how often it can happen, and what kind of fights can be found. Boom, content.
Longer/wider chains won't get fights by default, for reasons already covered in this thread. The depth at which players will commit to a fight or continue searching is not under CCP's control. It is yet another limitation that is controlled by the players themselves. |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
157
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 17:09:00 -
[2258] - Quote
decided not to post the huge rant that I just came up with because A, its pointless anyway and B, will at least want to keep my NS main instead of getting banned. Not that I need my WH characters anymore now, some goes for my corpmates. I dont unsubscribe them because of this change, I unsubscribe because of the totally condescending lack of communication from your side CCP.
Thanks for nothing again, Fozzie |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1238
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 17:11:00 -
[2259] - Quote
Niskin wrote:To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: "A developer has got to know its customer's limitations."
You cannot control the choices players make when you do not control the entire list of options they have to choose from. Every player has 2 options that they start with before CCP adds any to the list. They are "leave this space" and "quit the game." The former may be CCP's intention from time to time, for valid reasons. The latter should never be intended.
Players make choices based on their own limitations, such as: available playtime, available resources, available assistance from others and yes, of course, risk of loss. Of those limitations the only one CCP can affect directly is risk. The others can be indirectly affected but not in an immediate fashion.
So playtime is out of their control. If there were a graph of playtime mapped against fun, peak playtime would meet up with peak fun. If something is less fun, or to use a term repeated in this thread --tedious--, that reduces fun and reduces playtime. As some have mentioned, increased reward along with increased risk can balance out fun.
Available resources are out of their control, they aren't going to just dump isk in people's wallets. They can adjust the rate at which players can earn isk but the effect is not immediate.
Available assistance means friends online and is only directly affected by available playtime which is tied to fun.
That leaves risk, the one thing CCP can directly affect, so they grabbed it and wrenched it up to 11. When I say that I mean the combination of Mass-Based-Jump, Extra Statics, Extra Randoms, and Frig Holes. These features could all have merit in isolation, but together they kicked the risk up high enough that people are ignoring CCP's recommendation of "accept more risk" and choosing the always available "nah, I'll do something else." Anybody who had a proper understanding of the choices would have seen that coming.
So what happens now? Well the choice list for CCP is much shorter: Revert the changes, Keep the changes and hope new people move in, or Pick and choose and hope it's the right formula for fun. I don't know what the right formula would be, but it has to take into account that players first question on risk is "how much of the risk can I control for?" The question of "can I afford to lose this?" comes after you decide how much risk you are actually facing.
Any developer that fails to understand the limitations of what they actually have control over will force people into decisions that developer won't like in the end. You CANNOT force people to play a certain way, but you can force them to choose between playing that way or quitting.
One last thing to discuss. Why is CCP trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem that created the symptom? Rolling holes is not the problem, it's a player-made solution to the actual problem of having nothing to do until something changes. The choices were always wait, logoff, or roll the hole. If you want to fix the actual problem, find a way for people that want fights to find them easier, and people who want isolation to find it easier. Then play with the variables on how long isolation can last, or how often it can happen, and what kind of fights can be found. Boom, content.
Longer/wider chains won't get fights by default, for reasons already covered in this thread. The depth at which players will commit to a fight or continue searching is not under CCP's control. It is yet another limitation that is controlled by the players themselves.
I like that, nicely put, I have no problem at all with the concept of adding risk, but one needs to have a reason to do so first, wormhole space was hardly considered safe in the first place, and they seem to have hoped that by "shaking things up" somehow magically more content would appear.
We can see just how well that did not work. Some of the changes, touted at increasing risk, actually made the game more dreary and boring, and the blind luck element of dying due to landing in a bad position, just made any sane person hate and despise the mass spawn change outright. Increasing connectivity has reduced site running, as sensible people react sensibly, there are now near infinite chains to scan out, with the exciting scan and wait for a bit scanner, again, again. Now another hundred times............ And when eventually scanned only succeeds in showing us how empty wormhole space has become.
It seems that CCP were hoping for a quick fix, and suprisingly people failed to believe the PR and press releases bragging about how this was the best thing for wormholes ever, when our own eyes and experience show clearly it was not.
Perhaps it is time to actually do something for wormhole space than rather than just kicking a few things around and calling it done?
Ps we like the signatures persisting after downtime, best upgrade ever Yeah hyperion! There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
823
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 17:43:00 -
[2260] - Quote
Wait we reached 100? |
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epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1239
|
Posted - 2014.09.24 18:17:00 -
[2261] - Quote
Not yet but oh so close, wonder how long it will last?
There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 01:54:00 -
[2262] - Quote
Look, we're almost up to 100 pages again!!! Let's see who's posts make the next cut! |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
60
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 02:37:00 -
[2263] - Quote
Well it Is difficult to get ppl to play eve now with the changes.. Our pilots are tired of scanning wh after wh to find content and find nothing. They have moved on to other games.
We had ssc pay us a visit and bait us. I had 3 ppl on line that was it. I went to the other game channel where there was 15 and no one would log into eve for the fight..
That is just sad
SSC always bring a good fight and i wanted to engage so bad but not with just 3 pilots..So now i am getting bored and i do not even look forward to getting home and logging into eve anymore, As where b4 i did..
Just sad
..thanks ccp for Not Listening to your wh pilots and ruining wh space and the game for the great pilots of w space. Except you hans Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 02:41:00 -
[2264] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:Well it Is difficult to get ppl to play eve now with the changes.. Our pilots are tired of scanning wh after wh to find content and find nothing. They have moved on to other games. We has ssc pay us a visit and bait us. I had 3 ppl on line that was it. I went to the other game channel where there was 15 and no one would log into eve for the fight.. That is just sad SSC always bring a good fight and i wanted to engage so bad but not with just 3 pilots..So now i am getting bored and i do not even look forward to getting home and logging into eve anymore, As where b4 i did.. Just sad ..thanks ccp for Not Listening to your wh pilots and ruining wh space and the game for the great pilots of w space. Except you hans
I feel your pain, I think I just scanned around 120 sigs in 7 or 8 holes in our more then empty dead chain. I think there were maybe 1 or 2 active corps in those holes. I think ccp just needs to make WH space EASIER, that way it'll draw all the bears in, they'll quickly learn how to fight =) |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
280
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 05:07:00 -
[2265] - Quote
LOL Wormhole space IS EASY! How much more easy do people want it????
Those that leave the game over the changes are the people we dont playing the game as they are the ones that play other games while waiting for a ping in facebook/teamspeak for a fight and bring appsolutely nothing to content generation for the rest of the EVE community. Lets focus on finding new players that actually want to contribute to the game community, instead of whining constantly about changes that are infact great (for the most part). Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
21
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 05:44:00 -
[2266] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:LOL Wormhole space IS EASY! How much more easy do people want it????
Those that leave the game over the changes are the people we dont playing the game as they are the ones that play other games while waiting for a ping in facebook/teamspeak for a fight and bring appsolutely nothing to content generation for the rest of the EVE community. Lets focus on finding new players that actually want to contribute to the game community, instead of whining constantly about changes that are infact great (for the most part).
Well I never said it was hard
Do you really think mass based spawn distances are a good thing? Honestly.... all it does is provide safety for every covert ops ship out there, prevents pvp NOT because people are afraid to farm, but because when a cov ops T3 spawns 10KM away from the hole it makes it much harder to bring out of cloak. Or battleships that are spawning 15KM away from the hole almost out of range of hic bubbles. Sure if you're a large corp, probably not a big deal to get point on them. But for the rest of us we're a little limited and it makes it harder.
I don't think mass based spawn distances have killed farming, or maybe ganking ppl farming, but it has killed on hole pvp. Two nights ago I had my hic orbiting the hole at 500m waiting for some russians to come in. They come in through a scorp and spawned 15KM away from the hole. What's the point of a hic on a hole now when ships can burn 1km and warp off?
Brawling on holes is dead. |
Lucius Uta
Not really a corp
1
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 05:56:00 -
[2267] - Quote
Yesterday, for the first time after these changes I entered a wormhole in a Retriever to mine some ABC ores. Also the last time, since I spawned 7-8 km from the hole (previously I never spawned more than 5 km away), as it takes forever to travel 2 or 3 km in a Retriever and I would have been laughably easy to kill even by a solo camper, which is of course not the case when I enter holes with a Drake or any other ship designed to run sites with (as they have better tank, base speed and are fitted with a propmod). So, Fozzie, thanks for nerfing WH Ninja mining, an activity that maybe three people were doing. |
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
280
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 06:20:00 -
[2268] - Quote
Scrubnbubble wrote:Andiedeath wrote:LOL Wormhole space IS EASY! How much more easy do people want it????
Those that leave the game over the changes are the people we dont playing the game as they are the ones that play other games while waiting for a ping in facebook/teamspeak for a fight and bring appsolutely nothing to content generation for the rest of the EVE community. Lets focus on finding new players that actually want to contribute to the game community, instead of whining constantly about changes that are infact great (for the most part). Well I never said it was hard Do you really think mass based spawn distances are a good thing? Honestly.... all it does is provide safety for every covert ops ship out there, prevents pvp NOT because people are afraid to farm, but because when a cov ops T3 spawns 10KM away from the hole it makes it much harder to bring out of cloak. Or battleships that are spawning 15KM away from the hole almost out of range of hic bubbles. Sure if you're a large corp, probably not a big deal to get point on them. But for the rest of us we're a little limited and it makes it harder. I don't think mass based spawn distances have killed farming, or maybe ganking ppl farming, but it has killed on hole pvp. Two nights ago I had my hic orbiting the hole at 500m waiting for some russians to come in. They come in through a scorp and spawned 15KM away from the hole. What's the point of a hic on a hole now when ships can burn 1km and warp off? Brawling on holes is dead.
Really? I rolled one of our statics last night in an orca and was engaged by 2 End of Life stealth bombers as I spawned 12Kms from the wormhole. We had a couple online and had a brawl on the static due to that. No one lost ships as the EOL frigate spawn distances when chasing me back through allowed them to jump the second they hit structure. Although that fight occurred BECAUSE of the changes.
The only change to the new mechanic I can gather from that is make ALL ships jump random distances not make it mass base. If you jump a wormhole in ANY SHIP you end up 2-15 kms from teh wormhole. At least in that respect those stealth bombers would have been takign a risk chasing me back into a wormhole where my battle Orca would have slaughtered them...
Its people that complain and troll negativity that are causing people to leave the game not the changes themselves... People dont want to hear whining babies when they log into an adult game and teamspeak they want to talk crap, escape the pressures of real life, have a laugh and possibly blow stuff up in game while doing that.
Stop complaining and GET ON WITH PLAYING THE GAME! Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
108
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 12:31:00 -
[2269] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:LOL Wormhole space IS EASY! How much more easy do people want it????
Really? I rolled one of our statics last night in an orca and was engaged by 2 End of Life stealth bombers as I spawned 12Kms from the wormhole. We had a couple online and had a brawl on the static due to that. No one lost ships as the EOL frigate spawn distances when chasing me back through allowed them to jump the second they hit structure. Although that fight occurred BECAUSE of the changes.
No, it would have happened before as well. They would have just jumped with you back to your hole and not agressing you immediately.
If you find WH so easy, move to 0.0, which is more dangerous (attention: irony) or be a man and move to the most dangerous space in Eve: HiSec.
Andiedeath wrote: People dont want to hear whining babies when they log into an adult game and teamspeak they want to talk crap, escape the pressures of real life, have a laugh and possibly blow stuff up in game while doing that.
You know what: I don't want to listen / read from fanboys like you, ignoring reality, talking a lot of bullshit and telling stories that never happened to just troll in a thread and bust those who feel treated in a bad way from CCP or which is affecting a lot of People of wh community in a bad way, especially those who maybe can not hide behind an alliance.
I would be pleased if you can add something constructive, but you can't... |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1242
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 13:28:00 -
[2270] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Scrubnbubble wrote:Andiedeath wrote:LOL Wormhole space IS EASY! How much more easy do people want it????
Those that leave the game over the changes are the people we dont playing the game as they are the ones that play other games while waiting for a ping in facebook/teamspeak for a fight and bring appsolutely nothing to content generation for the rest of the EVE community. Lets focus on finding new players that actually want to contribute to the game community, instead of whining constantly about changes that are infact great (for the most part). Well I never said it was hard Do you really think mass based spawn distances are a good thing? Honestly.... all it does is provide safety for every covert ops ship out there, prevents pvp NOT because people are afraid to farm, but because when a cov ops T3 spawns 10KM away from the hole it makes it much harder to bring out of cloak. Or battleships that are spawning 15KM away from the hole almost out of range of hic bubbles. Sure if you're a large corp, probably not a big deal to get point on them. But for the rest of us we're a little limited and it makes it harder. I don't think mass based spawn distances have killed farming, or maybe ganking ppl farming, but it has killed on hole pvp. Two nights ago I had my hic orbiting the hole at 500m waiting for some russians to come in. They come in through a scorp and spawned 15KM away from the hole. What's the point of a hic on a hole now when ships can burn 1km and warp off? Brawling on holes is dead. Really? I rolled one of our statics last night in an orca and was engaged by 2 End of Life stealth bombers as I spawned 12Kms from the wormhole. We had a couple online and had a brawl on the static due to that. No one lost ships as the EOL frigate spawn distances when chasing me back through allowed them to jump the second they hit structure. Although that fight occurred BECAUSE of the changes. The only change to the new mechanic I can gather from that is make ALL ships jump random distances not make it mass base. If you jump a wormhole in ANY SHIP you end up 2-15 kms from teh wormhole. At least in that respect those stealth bombers would have been takign a risk chasing me back into a wormhole where my battle Orca would have slaughtered them... Its people that complain and troll negativity that are causing people to leave the game not the changes themselves... People dont want to hear whining babies when they log into an adult game and teamspeak they want to talk crap, escape the pressures of real life, have a laugh and possibly blow stuff up in game while doing that. Stop complaining and GET ON WITH PLAYING THE GAME!
Firstly no one person has said that Hyperion is the end of the world, or going to make every wormhole player leave.
Secondly this is a feed back thread. Notice the preceeding two words, feed back. People are doing exactly that, sorry if it offends you.
Thirdly when one has had their environment degraded, and made worse when you were promised that the intention was to improve things, maybe people should point out that the developer has left his bulldozer and porta loo on the lawn rather than planting flowers against it and pretending it is not there as that might frighten the neighbours.
so in short tough, we are going to continue until Fozzie clears up his mess. Finishes his Job of work, and leaves wormhole space BETTER than when he started this process. Corbexx is providing valuable information and passing on our Views, with Ideas of his own that will help us all. Hopefully CCP have not just Ticked the box and said "wormholes done for 5 years"
This thread attempt to remind them that it is NOT. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
507
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:42:00 -
[2271] - Quote
Are you stating that 2 end of life bombers chose to attack you orca because of the changes?? Explain to me why the wouldn't have engaged you pre hyperion.
I'm skeptical of your ability to draw straight lines. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1247
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 17:52:00 -
[2272] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Are you stating that 2 end of life bombers chose to attack you orca because of the changes?? Explain to me why the wouldn't have engaged you pre hyperion.
I'm skeptical of your ability to draw straight lines.
Now that's just cruel
I prefer the phrase terminilogical inexactitude.
But who knows? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1247
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:00:00 -
[2273] - Quote
Is it too late to get any of the needed changes into oceanos? Or Will we have to wait until the following release at the earliest? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 21:18:00 -
[2274] - Quote
epicurus ataraxia wrote:Is it too late to get any of the needed changes into oceanos? Or Will we have to wait until the following release at the earliest?
So optimistic? After all that's happened? I'm certainly not!
EDIT: Page 100! [again] yay... wonder if CCP will even give it a quick glance now. |
Dreekus
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:10:00 -
[2275] - Quote
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:epicurus ataraxia wrote:Is it too late to get any of the needed changes into oceanos? Or Will we have to wait until the following release at the earliest? So optimistic? After all that's happened? I'm certainly not! EDIT: Page 100! [again] yay... wonder if CCP will even give it a quick glance now.
I kinda understand that they would like to gather more data. I am being optimistic and/or naive but I hope that is why there is no response - they are gathering data and till they do not gather enough there is not much they could say that would calm public |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
65
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:34:00 -
[2276] - Quote
I'd like to express how much I love Hyperion. Now I've got plenty of time with my wife, she always kept on whining and crying she'd lost his husband to a ******* game. Nowadays all the bills are paid in time, no more people calling that the bill for the car is late, or my children getting fever because father isn't playing with them anymore. The wallet thanks too- no more buying plex for whelping silly pve bs' s just because the heart Thanks too - much less smoking in front of screen because wspace is so cool Ty Fozzie <3 I'M FINALLY getting a life |
Jessica Duranin
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
155
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 22:42:00 -
[2277] - Quote
Dreekus wrote:I kinda understand that they would like to gather more data. I am being optimistic and/or naive but I hope that is why there is no response They won't release any of that data. If there really would have been no severe hit to w-space population and activity then there would have already been a dev blog about how well the new wormhole features worked out. Just look at the recent dev blog about the burner missions for comparison.
They certainly won't post a dev blog filled with graphs that basically show how the wormhole update failed. TBH we don't need any graphs. We need this sh*t fixed. |
Brutus Crendraven
Stryker Industries
25
|
Posted - 2014.09.25 23:33:00 -
[2278] - Quote
Hi CCP,
Post the changes to wormhole space things have gotten significanlty worse.
1. Roaming fleets seen: Significanlty less. 2. Bashing POSs increased (lack of targets) 3. WH distance changes, those pesky scouts now jump with out risk. 4. Melted Nano Ribbons slight rise in price. Wander if there is less farming? 5. Chains mapped yep, loads and loads. EMPTY. We're resorting to low and null space YUCK! 6. Occupied Wormholes declining (We've watched people leave). Loads of deactivated large towers, based on revisiting our vast collection of tower bookmarks. 6. Frigate wormholes were great we went out and bought new frigates. Used them once! 7. Rage rolls, reduced due to lack of corp interest. 3 Orcas and a Scorpion slow boating back to a wh is just a tedium not required. Also no additional risk persay. Given we spawned the WH and it requires pilots to be in the new wh active. They have to scan and form up to engage our rolling fleet. .....
Overall tweaking some figures to throw ships further away from the Wormhole hasn't really set the world on fire! Please rollback the changes and listen to your customer base. Maybe introduce some genuine functionality rather than dithering around existing mechanics please!
Wormholes may not be as glamourous as large scale TIDI fights in Null but we are a group of active intent pilots trying to enjoy the sandbox of eve, throw in some more toys not nerf the existing ones.
CCP be brave and share the figures and lets get wormhole space back to happy space :)
Thanks
A low class pilot in a low class wormhole. |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
10
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 00:06:00 -
[2279] - Quote
Jessica Duranin wrote:Dreekus wrote:I kinda understand that they would like to gather more data. I am being optimistic and/or naive but I hope that is why there is no response They won't release any of that data. If there really would have been no severe hit to w-space population and activity then there would have already been a dev blog about how well the new wormhole features worked out. Just look at the recent dev blog about the burner missions for comparison. They certainly won't post a dev blog filled with graphs that basically show how the wormhole update failed. TBH we don't need any graphs. We need this sh*t fixed.
This, basically. Its obvious the figures don't fit with what CCP would like to think and they are too embarrassed to show it. Or, like I said earlier, it might be that although the net amount of players and activity is down in WH space, CCP considers this to be an acceptable number and will pretend everything is still fine, despite having many, many players and both CSM's saying it isn't. For me and my corp, this change has done nothing but brought frustration and lack of enjoyment to what little gametime we have. As a result, many of us simply don't log in anymore. Tell me CCP, how does this bring more content and enjoyment to a patch who's main philosophy was to bring a breath of fresh air to WH space. Honestly if you needed inspiration for some good ideas, you should have checked out the WH space little things thread. I'm sure you could make a patch just out of the first page or two and everyone would be rejoicing!
Yet again, still waiting for a response other than "Don't worry guys, we're watching!". I for one would actually welcome a post saying "You guys are over-reacting here is a graph to prove it.", because that would sort it out once and for all. Maybe they were right and it did make a positive difference (although I doubt it based on my own experience and of those mentioned in this thead!). The fact that such a post hasn't happened yet however leads me to suspect it won't do anytime soon (if ever). |
Serith Ellecon
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
41
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 02:34:00 -
[2280] - Quote
I have near zero confidence in CCP reverting the one bad change in Hyperion. They were told this was a bad idea in advance, and now WH corps and players are leaving for K-space (and some of them leave the game) as a result. Activity levels are plummeting and CCP insist this was a success... Inappropriate signature added.-á CCP Notarealdev. |
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Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
60
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 02:36:00 -
[2281] - Quote
So we were talking tonight and had this thought..Since we are scanning the endless chains of mty w space. If ccp wants to Drive conflict in w space what about reducing the number of whs
By doing this you increase the chances of hitting active corps and drive more conflict since there is less whs Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
Andiedeath
Sefem Velox Swift Angels Alliance
283
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 03:11:00 -
[2282] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Are you stating that 2 end of life bombers chose to attack you orca because of the changes?? Explain to me why the wouldn't have engaged you pre hyperion. I'm skeptical of your ability to draw straight lines.
LOL and trolling continues... So sad... As per epicurus ataraxia's comment, feedback is constructive, whining is not... 90% of the posts on these are useless feedback and just push away from teh game rather than encourage them to actually give the new content a go... Also your statement about the Orca situation is based on an emotional responce to the changes not fact...
I dont believe those bombers would have engaged the Orca pre-Hyperion or at very best would have jumped through to chase me when I double tapped and then immediately disengaged and jumped back through. The only reason we got an engagement was due to the fact that they thought they could burn through my hit points before I had a chance to get back to jump range of the wormhole... So infact it is YOU that is mistaken and/or quite mis-informed on the mechanics. Director Swift Angels Alliance https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=3247397#post3247397 INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
110
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 06:48:00 -
[2283] - Quote
you are trolling! Stop it please. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
67
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 08:15:00 -
[2284] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Are you stating that 2 end of life bombers chose to attack you orca because of the changes?? Explain to me why the wouldn't have engaged you pre hyperion. I'm skeptical of your ability to draw straight lines. LOL and trolling continues... So sad... As per epicurus ataraxia's comment, feedback is constructive, whining is not... 90% of the posts on these are useless feedback and just push away from teh game rather than encourage them to actually give the new content a go... Also your statement about the Orca situation is based on an emotional responce to the changes not fact... I dont believe those bombers would have engaged the Orca pre-Hyperion or at very best would have jumped through to chase me when I double tapped and then immediately disengaged and jumped back through. The only reason we got an engagement was due to the fact that they thought they could burn through my hit points before I had a chance to get back to jump range of the wormhole... So infact it is YOU that is mistaken and/or quite mis-informed on the mechanics.
Hmm in the last 13 days, your corp got 14 kills in wspace (includind a MTU).... and lots of kills in kspace, including Tama, nullsec and such. As i understand, you and many other guys in your alliance are very good pvpers. I just don't understand how Hyperion was so good for YOU if you get so few kills in wspace? I mean, you're actually doing what everybody else is, going to kspace to get content. I enjoy your enthusiasm too much, the positive attitude goes a long way up in life, but let's be honest :S |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
112
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:02:00 -
[2285] - Quote
no, no, no. Don't draw the killboard card. Tried that already. He will claim to have alts doing this pvp stuff. I saw his killboard as well and had the same thoughts. If this change was doing so much for him and his ally, why isn't killboard reflecting this.
All the Story he tells us can not be proven and the killboard links he provided earlier are not valid. Isn't that strange, is it? Obviously he is just trolling, so we better we just ignore him. Is there an "ignore button" here in the Forum? Have to check that now ... oh yeah. It is. klick on his Avatar and you can find "hide posts". This will help. :) |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1259
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 10:45:00 -
[2286] - Quote
Some of the changes, had the potential to be good, as part of a general wormhole expansion that corrected the disparity between low class wormhole systems and in their relationship to KS income sources, some new content would have also been appreciated together with fixing known bugs in the sites.
However what we got was a bulldozer driven through wormhole space pushing everything off it's foundations, with no development and improvement.
In a nutshell, it was all stick and no carrot, and the mass spawn change was a hammer used to drive that wooden stake through wormhole spaces heart........
The one unquestionably good change, signatures remaining over downtime, is not enough to bandage this gaping wound...... There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
512
|
Posted - 2014.09.26 12:39:00 -
[2287] - Quote
Andiedeath wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:Are you stating that 2 end of life bombers chose to attack you orca because of the changes?? Explain to me why the wouldn't have engaged you pre hyperion. I'm skeptical of your ability to draw straight lines. LOL and trolling continues... So sad... As per epicurus ataraxia's comment, feedback is constructive, whining is not... 90% of the posts on these are useless feedback and just push away from teh game rather than encourage them to actually give the new content a go... Also your statement about the Orca situation is based on an emotional responce to the changes not fact... I dont believe those bombers would have engaged the Orca pre-Hyperion or at very best would have jumped through to chase me when I double tapped and then immediately disengaged and jumped back through. The only reason we got an engagement was due to the fact that they thought they could burn through my hit points before I had a chance to get back to jump range of the wormhole... So infact it is YOU that is mistaken and/or quite mis-informed on the mechanics.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
Let me bottom line this for you.
An orca jumps through a wh [stop me if you've already heard this]. 2 bombers get a free poke to try and kill it. [sun glasses on - blinding flash of the obvious] Pre or post hyperion, if 2 bombers get a free poke at a rolling orca - they take it.
The crux of your argument is that they felt they could kill it in their wh before it got back, so they engaged. Then you go on to state that the followed you through and gave it a go there.
For your theory (well delusional story is probably a more proper description) to be correct.... 1. The end of life bomber pilots would need to be risk averse pansies - which they were not (hint they followed you in) 2. The end of life bomber pilots would stop at their wh and not follow you back -(see hint above)
I pity your lack of understanding of the world you live in on one hand, but on the other envy the sense of awe and wonderment you perpetually enjoy.
I'm not whining - I'm telling you that your understanding of "The great orca/bomber incident of 2014" is flat out wrong. You missed. You don't get it. Wrongo! Bzzzzzzzt! and all that. If you think I'm whining.... I can't help you.
TL/DR the crappy mass/range mechanic had NOTHING to do w/ the 2 bombers having a go at your orca. |
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
5
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 06:55:00 -
[2288] - Quote
I think everyone has made the right points again and again on this thread and it's reached the point where we deserve to see some stats.
It's not like CCP never show stats to back up how their changes went (they just did it with their burner missions) so CCP Fozzie how about it ?
Clear unedited facts,stats and charts so we can see what's going on? If the change was bad admit it, if you want to prove that it was right but it's going to take more time then tell us. At the moment we are in the dark. And we feel ignored. And our complaints feel justified because WH space feels emptier. |
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 08:51:00 -
[2289] - Quote
Dalron wrote:I think everyone has made the right points again and again on this thread and it's reached the point where we deserve to see some stats.
It's not like CCP never show stats to back up how their changes went (they just did it with their burner missions) so CCP Fozzie how about it ?
Clear unedited facts,stats and charts so we can see what's going on? If the change was bad admit it, if you want to prove that it was right but it's going to take more time then tell us. At the moment we are in the dark. And we feel ignored. And our complaints feel justified because WH space feels emptier.
We will only see stats if they back up CCP's position, Fozzie like all the other developers is trying to avoid discussing his cockups. Given the complete lack of interest by the devs since their last post we can assume that the predictions of doom and gloom have been vindicated. FFS they've moved to Module Tiericide now that ship Tiericide is now (and I Quote) 'Nearly complete' |
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
29
|
Posted - 2014.09.28 08:58:00 -
[2290] - Quote
Niskin wrote:To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: "A developer has got to know its customer's limitations."
You cannot control the choices players make when you do not control the entire list of options they have to choose from. Every player has 2 options that they start with before CCP adds any to the list. They are "leave this space" and "quit the game." The former may be CCP's intention from time to time, for valid reasons. The latter should never be intended.
Players make choices based on their own limitations, such as: available playtime, available resources, available assistance from others and yes, of course, risk of loss. Of those limitations the only one CCP can affect directly is risk. The others can be indirectly affected but not in an immediate fashion.
So playtime is out of their control. If there were a graph of playtime mapped against fun, peak playtime would meet up with peak fun. If something is less fun, or to use a term repeated in this thread --tedious--, that reduces fun and reduces playtime. As some have mentioned, increased reward along with increased risk can balance out fun.
Available resources are out of their control, they aren't going to just dump isk in people's wallets. They can adjust the rate at which players can earn isk but the effect is not immediate.
Available assistance means friends online and is only directly affected by available playtime which is tied to fun.
That leaves risk, the one thing CCP can directly affect, so they grabbed it and wrenched it up to 11. When I say that I mean the combination of Mass-Based-Jump, Extra Statics, Extra Randoms, and Frig Holes. These features could all have merit in isolation, but together they kicked the risk up high enough that people are ignoring CCP's recommendation of "accept more risk" and choosing the always available "nah, I'll do something else." Anybody who had a proper understanding of the choices would have seen that coming.
So what happens now? Well the choice list for CCP is much shorter: Revert the changes, Keep the changes and hope new people move in, or Pick and choose and hope it's the right formula for fun. I don't know what the right formula would be, but it has to take into account that players first question on risk is "how much of the risk can I control for?" The question of "can I afford to lose this?" comes after you decide how much risk you are actually facing.
Any developer that fails to understand the limitations of what they actually have control over will force people into decisions that developer won't like in the end. You CANNOT force people to play a certain way, but you can force them to choose between playing that way or quitting.
One last thing to discuss. Why is CCP trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem that created the symptom? Rolling holes is not the problem, it's a player-made solution to the actual problem of having nothing to do until something changes. The choices were always: wait, logoff, or roll the hole. If you want to fix the actual problem, find a way for people that want fights to find them easier, and people who want isolation to find it easier. Then play with the variables on how long isolation can last, or how often it can happen, and what kind of fights can be found. Boom, content.
Longer/wider chains won't get fights by default, for reasons already covered in this thread. The depth at which players will commit to a fight or continue searching is not under CCP's control. It is yet another limitation that is controlled by the players themselves.
Nice post deserves a +1
I'd add somewhat less eloquently that CCP has a long history of borking areas of the game, treatment of WH's only shows they actually do think they are game developer gods, rather that reasoned thinking individuals who want a thriving game ecosystem. Elite:Dangerous is now up to 550 systems and due for release in a couple of months, its shaping up to be EVE 2 in a very very real way. It lacks a lot of features currently, but it will get them.
TL;DR CCP ****** up (again), Other options now available to play |
|
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
14
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 01:22:00 -
[2291] - Quote
Niskin wrote:To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: "A developer has got to know its customer's limitations."
You cannot control the choices players make when you do not control the entire list of options they have to choose from. Every player has 2 options that they start with before CCP adds any to the list. They are "leave this space" and "quit the game." The former may be CCP's intention from time to time, for valid reasons. The latter should never be intended.
Players make choices based on their own limitations, such as: available playtime, available resources, available assistance from others and yes, of course, risk of loss. Of those limitations the only one CCP can affect directly is risk. The others can be indirectly affected but not in an immediate fashion.
So playtime is out of their control. If there were a graph of playtime mapped against fun, peak playtime would meet up with peak fun. If something is less fun, or to use a term repeated in this thread --tedious--, that reduces fun and reduces playtime. As some have mentioned, increased reward along with increased risk can balance out fun.
Available resources are out of their control, they aren't going to just dump isk in people's wallets. They can adjust the rate at which players can earn isk but the effect is not immediate.
Available assistance means friends online and is only directly affected by available playtime which is tied to fun.
That leaves risk, the one thing CCP can directly affect, so they grabbed it and wrenched it up to 11. When I say that I mean the combination of Mass-Based-Jump, Extra Statics, Extra Randoms, and Frig Holes. These features could all have merit in isolation, but together they kicked the risk up high enough that people are ignoring CCP's recommendation of "accept more risk" and choosing the always available "nah, I'll do something else." Anybody who had a proper understanding of the choices would have seen that coming.
So what happens now? Well the choice list for CCP is much shorter: Revert the changes, Keep the changes and hope new people move in, or Pick and choose and hope it's the right formula for fun. I don't know what the right formula would be, but it has to take into account that players first question on risk is "how much of the risk can I control for?" The question of "can I afford to lose this?" comes after you decide how much risk you are actually facing.
Any developer that fails to understand the limitations of what they actually have control over will force people into decisions that developer won't like in the end. You CANNOT force people to play a certain way, but you can force them to choose between playing that way or quitting.
One last thing to discuss. Why is CCP trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem that created the symptom? Rolling holes is not the problem, it's a player-made solution to the actual problem of having nothing to do until something changes. The choices were always: wait, logoff, or roll the hole. If you want to fix the actual problem, find a way for people that want fights to find them easier, and people who want isolation to find it easier. Then play with the variables on how long isolation can last, or how often it can happen, and what kind of fights can be found. Boom, content.
Longer/wider chains won't get fights by default, for reasons already covered in this thread. The depth at which players will commit to a fight or continue searching is not under CCP's control. It is yet another limitation that is controlled by the players themselves.
A massive +1 to this. Explains the whole situation far better than I ever could. |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
23
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 04:21:00 -
[2292] - Quote
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:Niskin wrote:To paraphrase Clint Eastwood: "A developer has got to know its customer's limitations."
You cannot control the choices players make when you do not control the entire list of options they have to choose from. Every player has 2 options that they start with before CCP adds any to the list. They are "leave this space" and "quit the game." The former may be CCP's intention from time to time, for valid reasons. The latter should never be intended.
Players make choices based on their own limitations, such as: available playtime, available resources, available assistance from others and yes, of course, risk of loss. Of those limitations the only one CCP can affect directly is risk. The others can be indirectly affected but not in an immediate fashion.
So playtime is out of their control. If there were a graph of playtime mapped against fun, peak playtime would meet up with peak fun. If something is less fun, or to use a term repeated in this thread --tedious--, that reduces fun and reduces playtime. As some have mentioned, increased reward along with increased risk can balance out fun.
Available resources are out of their control, they aren't going to just dump isk in people's wallets. They can adjust the rate at which players can earn isk but the effect is not immediate.
Available assistance means friends online and is only directly affected by available playtime which is tied to fun.
That leaves risk, the one thing CCP can directly affect, so they grabbed it and wrenched it up to 11. When I say that I mean the combination of Mass-Based-Jump, Extra Statics, Extra Randoms, and Frig Holes. These features could all have merit in isolation, but together they kicked the risk up high enough that people are ignoring CCP's recommendation of "accept more risk" and choosing the always available "nah, I'll do something else." Anybody who had a proper understanding of the choices would have seen that coming.
So what happens now? Well the choice list for CCP is much shorter: Revert the changes, Keep the changes and hope new people move in, or Pick and choose and hope it's the right formula for fun. I don't know what the right formula would be, but it has to take into account that players first question on risk is "how much of the risk can I control for?" The question of "can I afford to lose this?" comes after you decide how much risk you are actually facing.
Any developer that fails to understand the limitations of what they actually have control over will force people into decisions that developer won't like in the end. You CANNOT force people to play a certain way, but you can force them to choose between playing that way or quitting.
One last thing to discuss. Why is CCP trying to fix a symptom rather than the problem that created the symptom? Rolling holes is not the problem, it's a player-made solution to the actual problem of having nothing to do until something changes. The choices were always: wait, logoff, or roll the hole. If you want to fix the actual problem, find a way for people that want fights to find them easier, and people who want isolation to find it easier. Then play with the variables on how long isolation can last, or how often it can happen, and what kind of fights can be found. Boom, content.
Longer/wider chains won't get fights by default, for reasons already covered in this thread. The depth at which players will commit to a fight or continue searching is not under CCP's control. It is yet another limitation that is controlled by the players themselves. A massive +1 to this. Explains the whole situation far better than I ever could.
This on a massive scale^ |
Mithandra
Serene Vendetta Brawls Deep
150
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 12:26:00 -
[2293] - Quote
Rolling the hole takes my corporation probably 30 seconds longer than it did post patch, and we are STILL rolling. We've not seen any more risk now than before.
We adapted. Eve is the dark haired, totally hot emo gothchild of the gaming community
|
God Arthie
Steel and Strong Wormhole Holders
19
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 12:35:00 -
[2294] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:Rolling the hole takes my corporation probably 30 seconds longer than it did post patch, and we are STILL rolling. We've not seen any more risk now than before.
We adapted.
We also adapted, and lost more then 5 players (some with alts), few of the people who stayed are also considering to leave because it takes too much time to prepare for something in a small corp. |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
112
|
Posted - 2014.09.29 14:15:00 -
[2295] - Quote
Mithandra wrote:Rolling the hole takes my corporation probably 30 seconds longer than it did post patch, and we are STILL rolling. We've not seen any more risk now than before.
We adapted.
We adapted as well. Anybody who did not leave WH Space so far adapted. You do not see more risk because you are big enough.
The questions I would raise to you specifically: Do you see more Content because of this mass change? Does this Change did anything positive for your corp / playstyle? |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
15
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 02:24:00 -
[2296] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:Mithandra wrote:Rolling the hole takes my corporation probably 30 seconds longer than it did post patch, and we are STILL rolling. We've not seen any more risk now than before.
We adapted. We adapted as well. Anybody who did not leave WH Space so far adapted. You do not see more risk because you are big enough. The questions I would raise to you specifically: Do you see more Content because of this mass change? Does this Change did anything positive for your corp / playstyle?
The point is not that the patch made rolling holes so impossibly unsafe that nobody does it anymore, its that it takes longer and is unsafe for smaller corporations to do in a reasonable amount of time in the face of an opposing force. The resulting increased connectivity of un-collapsable wormholes (combined with the stupid frigate WH's) as a result has simply made many corps leave WH space or go AFK/play other games while waiting for holes to collapse rather than potentially stay online to fight or roll said wormholes.
I'd also like to ask: how long do your chains go before you find "content?" I'm willing to bet its a hell of a lot further than before the patch. |
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence Low-Class
63
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 12:29:00 -
[2297] - Quote
Quote: The point is not that the patch made rolling holes so impossibly unsafe that nobody does it anymore, its that it takes longer and is unsafe for smaller corporations to do in a reasonable amount of time in the face of an opposing force. The resulting increased connectivity of un-collapsable wormholes (combined with the stupid frigate WH's) as a result has simply made many corps leave WH space or go AFK/play other games while waiting for holes to collapse rather than potentially stay online to fight or roll said wormholes.
I'd also like to ask: how long do your chains go before you find "content?" I'm willing to bet its a hell of a lot further than before the patch.
Here in lies the issue for our corp.No one wants to scan all day chains of endless mty whs looking for content. i like to scan but i get tired of the endless chains..
We need more content. They gave w space the stick now we need a carrot.
As stated by myself and others. If your not going to reverse your changes give us new content
. IE; New sleepers, new sights, Faction sleeper fittings. Something to drive players into w space to look for said items.. Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1272
|
Posted - 2014.09.30 17:13:00 -
[2298] - Quote
Gunner GzR wrote:Quote: The point is not that the patch made rolling holes so impossibly unsafe that nobody does it anymore, its that it takes longer and is unsafe for smaller corporations to do in a reasonable amount of time in the face of an opposing force. The resulting increased connectivity of un-collapsable wormholes (combined with the stupid frigate WH's) as a result has simply made many corps leave WH space or go AFK/play other games while waiting for holes to collapse rather than potentially stay online to fight or roll said wormholes.
I'd also like to ask: how long do your chains go before you find "content?" I'm willing to bet its a hell of a lot further than before the patch. Here in lies the issue for our corp.No one wants to scan all day chains of endless mty whs looking for content. i like to scan but i get tired of the endless chains.. We need more content. They gave w space the stick now we need a carrot. As stated by myself and others. If your not going to reverse your changes give us new content . IE; New sleepers, new sights, Faction sleeper fittings. Something to drive players into w space to look for said items.. Yes, this sums things up really well, Hyperion no carrot, and you are getting stick whatever you say. I really do not understand why CCP can be so self destructive sometimes, I know they mean well, they just seem to lack any concept of player motivation. There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Niskin
League of the Lost
6
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 00:10:00 -
[2299] - Quote
Thanks for the likes and reposts. The reason I made that post is that wormholes have always been something in EVE that I've enjoyed. I haven't lived in a wormhole since the first year they were out, and haven't played EVE much since then either. But I come back about once a year, for at least a few months, and try to find a way to have fun in the game with the little quality time I have for it.
Back in February, when I resubbed for the monument, I had this great idea of trying to go into a wormhole solo. I don't get much playtime that isn't easily interrupted, and going in solo, at least I wouldn't get anybody else killed... So one night I got drunk and flew to Oursulaert and bought an Orca. A week later I determined that I couldn't pull it off, so I sold the Orca, and when my month was up I ended my sub.
About a month ago I was itching to play again so I resubbed. This time I got drunk and went to Jita and bought an Orca and a POS.
Anyway the point is that I see the changes as a solo pilot, with only one account, allowing for at most 3 alts and none simultaneously. So risk management is my primary concern. Maybe what I'm trying to do shouldn't be possible, I don't know. I see it as a challenge and that could be fun... if the risk isn't entirely against me.
To be clear, when I speak of risk I mean specifically the risk of getting ganked while trying to do something something productive, with little chance to prevent it. Whether it's to fund PvP or just for the ISK, those who weren't already loaded when they came in need to earn money. People who want to PvP will PvP, people should still get ganked when doing productive things, but too much of that and people burn out.
When I was drunk in Jita I bought an Ore Compressor, because "hey cool an ore compressor" but then I found out that ore sites are anoms now. So I still have to spam the scan button if I want to mine, but there's less chance it will matter. It's basically me against the lock delay from cloaking, or if they decloak on warp in it's just splat time. I mean at least before I had some kind of chance, watching for probes. I know that's not the point of this thread or Hyperion but it's a major risk factor for me.
The thing is the anom change might not have been as bad without the increase in connections from Hyperion. I'm not going to be rolling holes, but I'm glad people can, as I'm sure some would roll away. I want to make ISK some other way than L4's, wormholes provide that option, or at least I'm willing to risk 2b ISK worth of my space crap to see if they do. That's pretty much all I have except for my L4 mission ships and modules. Hyperion has me on the fence about the whole thing. I'll probably still try, but if I'm losing ventures and drakes left and right it's hard to see how it would be worth it. If I can cover POS fuel, losses, and still make enough to buy PvP ships then it could end up being a fun adventure.
In the end I'm not against joining a wormhole corp to lower the risk, but being a full-time worker, parent, and husband really limits what I can contribute. I'm not saying the game should be made easy enough for me to solo, I just liked how things were setup before, and had worked for a very long time, as far as wormholes go. Plus I love the masochistic relationship between convincing yourself you'll be fine scanning lots of stuff down everyday, and being stuck in a WH whining about scanning stuff down all day. It's like the hot sauce of EVE, the repetition, it burns, but we love it. |
Scrubnbubble
Danneskjold Shipping Chained Reactions
23
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 04:56:00 -
[2300] - Quote
Oceanus is out, here's an update for everyone.
Worm holes look cooler. Massed Based Spawn distances still suck. I now live in a pink worm hole.
That is all. |
|
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
75
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 08:07:00 -
[2301] - Quote
Niskin wrote:Thanks for the likes and reposts. The reason I made that post is that wormholes have always been something in EVE that I've enjoyed. I haven't lived in a wormhole since the first year they were out, and haven't played EVE much since then either. But I come back about once a year, for at least a few months, and try to find a way to have fun in the game with the little quality time I have for it.
Back in February, when I resubbed for the monument, I had this great idea of trying to go into a wormhole solo. I don't get much playtime that isn't easily interrupted, and going in solo, at least I wouldn't get anybody else killed... So one night I got drunk and flew to Oursulaert and bought an Orca. A week later I determined that I couldn't pull it off, so I sold the Orca, and when my month was up I ended my sub.
About a month ago I was itching to play again so I resubbed. This time I got drunk and went to Jita and bought an Orca and a POS.
Anyway the point is that I see the changes as a solo pilot, with only one account, allowing for at most 3 alts and none simultaneously. So risk management is my primary concern. Maybe what I'm trying to do shouldn't be possible, I don't know. I see it as a challenge and that could be fun... if the risk isn't entirely against me.
To be clear, when I speak of risk I mean specifically the risk of getting ganked while trying to do something something productive, with little chance to prevent it. Whether it's to fund PvP or just for the ISK, those who weren't already loaded when they came in need to earn money. People who want to PvP will PvP, people should still get ganked when doing productive things, but too much of that and people burn out.
When I was drunk in Jita I bought an Ore Compressor, because "hey cool an ore compressor" but then I found out that ore sites are anoms now. So I still have to spam the scan button if I want to mine, but there's less chance it will matter. It's basically me against the lock delay from cloaking, or if they decloak on warp in it's just splat time. I mean at least before I had some kind of chance, watching for probes. I know that's not the point of this thread or Hyperion but it's a major risk factor for me.
The thing is the anom change might not have been as bad without the increase in connections from Hyperion. I'm not going to be rolling holes, but I'm glad people can, as I'm sure some would roll away. I want to make ISK some other way than L4's, wormholes provide that option, or at least I'm willing to risk 2b ISK worth of my space crap to see if they do. That's pretty much all I have except for my L4 mission ships and modules. Hyperion has me on the fence about the whole thing. I'll probably still try, but if I'm losing ventures and drakes left and right it's hard to see how it would be worth it. If I can cover POS fuel, losses, and still make enough to buy PvP ships then it could end up being a fun adventure.
In the end I'm not against joining a wormhole corp to lower the risk, but being a full-time worker, parent, and husband really limits what I can contribute. I'm not saying the game should be made easy enough for me to solo, I just liked how things were setup before, and had worked for a very long time, as far as wormholes go. Plus I love the masochistic relationship between convincing yourself you'll be fine scanning lots of stuff down everyday, and being stuck in a WH whining about scanning stuff down all day. It's like the hot sauce of EVE, the repetition, it burns, but we love it. <3 GÿàGÿàGÿà Murderous Inc. wants woobs (does that work as "wormhole newbies"?) |
God Arthie
Steel and Strong Wormhole Holders
20
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 08:18:00 -
[2302] - Quote
Subscription is ending, no fix in Oceanus so I think i'l just stay out of EvE for some time. Was fun pre-hyperion. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
215
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 15:57:00 -
[2303] - Quote
Guys, did you hear? CCP Fozzie claimed that "All contribution is valuable"! Maybe we can see some changes after all! /sarcasm |
Dreekus
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 17:33:00 -
[2304] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Guys, did you hear? CCP Fozzie claimed that "All contribution is valuable"! Maybe we can see some changes after all! /sarcasm
I don't why you think you are being sarcastic. There was one change in Oceanus... I mean fix.
sleeper RR fix |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
35
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 17:49:00 -
[2305] - Quote
Dreekus wrote:Nolak Ataru wrote:Guys, did you hear? CCP Fozzie claimed that "All contribution is valuable"! Maybe we can see some changes after all! /sarcasm I don't why you think you are being sarcastic. There was one change in Oceanus... I mean fix. sleeper RR fix
Any fix that decrease your income is good right? Then again, they probably to busy with the feedback regarding the travel changes now to bother with wormholes for a while. On that note, moving caps into wormholes could end up a bit of a pain with these changes too..
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
597
|
Posted - 2014.10.01 22:07:00 -
[2306] - Quote
I'd just like to remind nullsec dudes that the new jump fatigue mechanics and this WH rolling thing is pretty much the same thing.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything. |
Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
1644
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 02:50:00 -
[2307] - Quote
Um, no. Jump fatigue begins accumulating exponentially and fades in a linear fashion, punishing the scrublords for helicopter dicking about the whole galaxy instantly. Double-tap wears off the instant you do your 5 minute derp penance. J's before K's. Sudden Buggery is recruiting w-nerds and w-noobs. Mail your resume in today! http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1292
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 20:18:00 -
[2308] - Quote
Trinkets friend wrote:Um, no. Jump fatigue begins accumulating exponentially and fades in a linear fashion, punishing the scrublords for helicopter dicking about the whole galaxy instantly. Double-tap wears off the instant you do your 5 minute derp penance.
Yup not really the same thing, more " we do not want you doing it at all and if you do ignore us and bounce around the galaxy like tigger -(or a kangaroo on speed) - mindlessly hotdropping everything bigger than a shuttle, then it will be the next millenium before you can do so again"
Seems fair I am sure they will adaptGäó
But suprisingly they do not seem to like it though? There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
16
|
Posted - 2014.10.02 23:56:00 -
[2309] - Quote
Still no CCP response. Come on, corbexx even told you guys that even just communicating with us would go a long way to reduce the rage levels!
But no, I guess we get the silence treatment still. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
217
|
Posted - 2014.10.03 03:51:00 -
[2310] - Quote
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:Still no CCP response. Come on, corbexx even told you guys that even just communicating with us would go a long way to reduce the rage levels!
But no, I guess we get the silence treatment still.
They're currently scrambling to apply suicide triage carriers on their 246 page threadnaught regarding the jump changes, but it now takes time to move that many jumps.... |
|
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
46
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 13:20:00 -
[2311] - Quote
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:Still no CCP response. Come on, corbexx even told you guys that even just communicating with us would go a long way to reduce the rage levels!
But no, I guess we get the silence treatment still.
To be fair i think fozzie moved on to F**king over null sec. he's screwed wh's, buggered up modules (and thats only just started). he's very egalitarian - he's happy to **** up anybody's playing experience. Does he have shares in SC or E:D? |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
17
|
Posted - 2014.10.04 15:02:00 -
[2312] - Quote
Mindo Junde wrote:Pritovsky Pootis wrote:Still no CCP response. Come on, corbexx even told you guys that even just communicating with us would go a long way to reduce the rage levels!
But no, I guess we get the silence treatment still. To be fair i think fozzie moved on to F**king over null sec. he's screwed wh's, buggered up modules (and thats only just started). he's very egalitarian - he's happy to **** up anybody's playing experience. Does he have shares in SC or E:D?
Sure seems like it.
If by any chance you do read this thread at any point CCP, do understand that this issue isn't going to just disappear because you ignore it. Scrapping this change won't immediately bring back all the people that have left WH space (it's far, far too late for that), but at the very least it could potentially encourage some corps back again given time. All we have now is dead WHs and long chains with hardly any content! These figures you said you'd show to us are probably telling you this already which I assume is why you aren't actually going to show them, right?
Could we at least get one post to show that we are still being listened to? Sure I understand that the nullsec threadnaught requires a lot of attention but at the moment we're feeling very ignored here. |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
17
|
Posted - 2014.10.08 04:00:00 -
[2313] - Quote
*Dons tinfoil hat*
Guys, see the event posts about the "collect sleeper loot for empires and get cool stuff"?
What if, right...hear me out on this...it will sound crazy...
What if, it was to get people into WH space so that CCP can give us a graph showing higher player numbers after the patch, and that by doing so, they are trying to get more people living in WH space because they realised how much they messed up with this change but don't want to admit it? What if they are doing that instead of reverting this change in order to artificially (temporarily) boost WH activity to cover it up?
What if, guys?
*removes tinfoil hat*
Any response yet from CCP? Its been what, a month or two since the last post? |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
114
|
Posted - 2014.10.08 06:05:42 -
[2314] - Quote
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:*Dons tinfoil hat*
Guys, see the event posts about the "collect sleeper loot for empires and get cool stuff"?
What if, right...hear me out on this...it will sound crazy...
What if, it was to get people into WH space so that CCP can give us a graph showing higher player numbers after the patch, and that by doing so, they are trying to get more people living in WH space because they realised how much they messed up with this change but don't want to admit it? What if they are doing that instead of reverting this change in order to artificially (temporarily) boost WH activity to cover it up?
What if, guys?
*removes tinfoil hat*
Any response yet from CCP? Its been what, a month or two since the last post?
Wanted to write exactly the same. Bet 1 Plex that is exactly the reason for this event.
Bad CCP, really bad ... No even terrible it is.
I will not donate even one of those items and kill anybody I can without exception who I find daytripping these days. Because this event will just cause a very limited short term increase of traffic. Nothing which helps with the overall bad situation. :( |
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
161
|
Posted - 2014.10.08 06:16:36 -
[2315] - Quote
You really think anyone would move in because of this 'event' ? It is the simplest form of lame questing go get x and give it to y, only that exactly four people get something. The only guys who can win are some market alt who happened to see the post first and bought up the blue tags or someone with access to storage of a large WH alliance. Nobody else in their right mind will throwaway their loot with no chance of getting anything.
If at all, ccp should have at least taken the effort of adding a new item which is not on the market to the sleeper loot table to encourage farming and entering a fair competition.
|
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
114
|
Posted - 2014.10.08 06:59:35 -
[2316] - Quote
Come on It's EvE ... always bet on stupid ;) |
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
74
|
Posted - 2014.10.09 06:14:31 -
[2317] - Quote
Enthropic wrote:You really think anyone would move in because of this 'event' ? It is the simplest form of lame questing go get x and give it to y, only that exactly four people get something. The only guys who can win are some market alt who happened to see the post first and bought up the blue tags or someone with access to storage of a large WH alliance. Nobody else in their right mind will throwaway their loot with no chance of getting anything.
If at all, ccp should have at least taken the effort of adding a new item which is not on the market to the sleeper loot table to encourage farming and entering a fair competition.
Remember way, way back for the Gallente Arch. Grinded our ass off as a corp and we got rewarded for it. If they wanted a serious event, they need to make something you can rally a mass of players behind. Something that give players an incentive to take part.
This one can be easy had by "random empire trader" with big enough wallet. A player not ever set foot in wspace at all.
|
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
231
|
Posted - 2014.10.10 03:32:40 -
[2318] - Quote
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:*Dons tinfoil hat*
Guys, see the event posts about the "collect sleeper loot for empires and get cool stuff"?
What if, right...hear me out on this...it will sound crazy...
What if, it was to get people into WH space so that CCP can give us a graph showing higher player numbers after the patch, and that by doing so, they are trying to get more people living in WH space because they realised how much they messed up with this change but don't want to admit it? What if they are doing that instead of reverting this change in order to artificially (temporarily) boost WH activity to cover it up?
What if, guys?
*removes tinfoil hat*
Any response yet from CCP? Its been what, a month or two since the last post?
Awkward silence from CCP tells me it's true. |
Rei Moon
Murderous Inc
80
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 16:03:15 -
[2319] - Quote
Small guy review: 5/10 Meh Well first of all lemme formally apologize for some ranting way back in the first days, I'm sorry guys, that wasn't a fitting attitude for a true wormholer. More class! Now the juice. ' less inhabitants, few people moved out, even fewer moved in - based out of my derri+¿re, because no actual numbers. Also it feels like a natural tendency in wspace as opposed to a direct consequence of the feature. ' more time wasted rolling - not a big issue actually, but a bit annoying. ' more risky - I'd say it doesn't fully work as intended tho, there's a bit more risk in rolling, I fail to see that much of an improvement in engagement possibilities. ' luck factor - I partially agree with epicurus ataraxia in this one. Not that impactful pragmatically speaking, nevertheless an awful ideological change in devs vision. ' a pain in the buttowsky fun-wise? Let's see. Too early to be sure. Suggested improvements: Fozzie could think of a way of allowing the 3 cap yolo of old. Meaning, keep this change for the next four months, but enable Nid+2Nag swag jump within close range. Thoughts?
Murderous Inc. wants woobs (does that work as "wormhole newbies"?)
|
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
161
|
Posted - 2014.10.14 21:14:38 -
[2320] - Quote
One can like the changes or not, it comes down to personal preference. I hate them, and I said why in multiple posts, but who cares. Im just one of many customers, its not about me.
What I however fail to understand is this complete lack of reply by CCP in response to our 100 pages of feedback.
How hard can it be for a professional game developer to come up with a few stats, like ship-, pod- and sleeper kills in w-space, towers anchored and characters logged in per day in w-space.
plot this for a few months before hyperion to show whether there is (or is not) any decline and compare this to the time after Hyperion. I know the data should be collected over a longer period of time, but why not giving us some data now? Whats the harm?
If such data shows that Hyperion did not make it worse until now, then probably a lot of people like me would shut up and agree to disagree with Fozzie. It would have settled the issue without any bad blood.
I know Im not the only one who stopped caring tbh, now call me a whiner if you must |
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
599
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 14:18:37 -
[2321] - Quote
I would bet this would have a totally different outcome if we argued that our wh jump freighter stuff would be crippled.
So......
Hey, CCP this mass/range change just screwed my JF stuff. Could you please cave in???
(20 min until removed) (19:59) (19:58) |
Niskin
League of the Lost
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.15 18:08:28 -
[2322] - Quote
Well I wandered off for a bit. Read 392 of the 404 pages of the nullsec threadnaught and then 60-whatever pages of the update thread. Before that I even read some of Manny's suggestion thread which is similar to the actual changes we are getting. The tears made me feel a little better, but what I really gained was perspective. I now understand how the WH changes are related to the null changes and the direction they want the game to go in. Interestingly enough, the changes make life both harder and easier on a solo player like me.
Base level risk is increased. WH's are now more like a series of connected roads than the dark alleys they used to be. Low-sec and null will be more treacherous with capital ships being able to roam and becoming the top dogs over BS's and T3's in those arenas. In exchange for that, risk becomes more regional. Hot-drops don't happen from as far away, reducing your chances of being a target. In WH's there isn't really a risk decrease but the trade off is that you may see more traffic from outside allowing for more targets.
Before Greyscale backed off the full JF adjustment I was psyched about the market opportunities the changes would bring. I'm still psyched, it's just going to take longer to get to a point where enough changes are made to bring about real opportunities. Originally I was excited about living in a WH simply for the challenge. Now I'm excited about the prospect of bringing compressed ore to market in remote areas of space. And that could lead to other strategies that would make living in a WH fun and profitable.
Long term I wonder if eventually the more remote areas of null will be more empty due to logistic difficulties. Would that allow for me to drop out of a WH, setup a POS and live there for a bit? Ducking back down a WH in a month or so to avoid attention? Would it be worth it under whatever sov system we have by then to hide out there without sov? Who knows, it's all just ideas in my head right now.
If nothing else I'm excited by the potential for an industrial revolution in EVE. I've never been particularly savvy at making ISK, and have dabbled in many of the options, drawing from all but mastering none. Change can bring opportunity, I'm trying to focus on identifying where it can benefit me since there are so many changes happening right now. I'm hoping to be up and running in a WH again in the next few weeks. Something always seems to come up to delay it, but eventually you have to just say screw it and go in with whatever you have, ready or not! |
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 05:08:35 -
[2323] - Quote
Another tactic from CCP to try to increase wormhole traffic since they wont admit that this change screwed up WH space completely. Adding the improved nullsec data/relic sites into C1-C3 wormhole space to try to draw explorers into wormholes.
Cmon CCP all we want is some hard facts, you did it with burner missions and other changes, lets have it for this.
From personal experience I'm getting a lot less incoming wormholes into my space but due to these changes and frig wormholes I'm still not able to get anything done. |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
26
|
Posted - 2014.10.16 13:23:29 -
[2324] - Quote
Would it be so hard to just have SOME acknowledgement? Its been what, a month and a half since the last dev post? |
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
114
|
Posted - 2014.10.17 12:37:29 -
[2325] - Quote
Dalron wrote:Another tactic from CCP to try to increase wormhole traffic since they wont admit that this change screwed up WH space completely. Adding the improved nullsec data/relic sites into C1-C3 wormhole space to try to draw explorers into wormholes.
Which will just lead to slightly more CovertOps frigates entering wormhole Systems from K-Space. If they would at least add sleepers in this site as well, so we have something to fight (sleepers or the Explorer in battleships, but noooo. I personally don't care much about this patch as it doesn't really add content or will lead to bigger Population. Explorers will come more often to wormholes now for sure, but they will just scan (block the System for more interesting Targets, which will just hide or logoff because they are afraid of being attacked), do the site and leave. Ok, there will be some more exploded frigates, but that's it. No interesting fights, just easy and cheap targets or disturbing Scanners.
Another fact could be, that high-class wormholers now come more often to small class wormholes looking for these sites, meaning again, that the smaller ones who can not defend themselves are suffering mainly from this patch. More entering wormholes, etc.
I am again disappointed as CCP took some action, but like Hyperion it's not improving wormhole overall from my Point of view, but mainly punishing solo to small-scale wormhole inhabitants, especially in the low class wormholes, who are already boring empty. Seldomly have a fight without going a very Long chain or today mostly directly into lowsec or 0.0. If I want to do data and relic Sites I can choose one of the many 0.0 exits in our nearly daily long, long wormhole chains. |
Rroff
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
851
|
Posted - 2014.10.20 14:49:52 -
[2326] - Quote
This change sure ain't helping activity levels (not that I can talk too much at the moment) - most people logged off to play other games (LoL :|) last night as there wasn't much to do with another entity active in our static with 4x our online numbers and any attempt to collapse the wh would have been pretty much suicide. |
Andre Coeurl
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
29
|
Posted - 2014.10.20 15:33:12 -
[2327] - Quote
After a while, it's clear how this change puts small corps in a very unsustainable situation because it's impossible to roll WHs with any reasonable degree of safety, so not only there's very little chance they'll run capital escalations anymore, but they'll also be unable to collapse for the purpose of finding new targets for PVP if the available chain doesn't provide anything.
This means LESS CONTENT for everyone, not just for the corp affected, but also for the bigger corps who still can chain-collapse... they simply won't find as many corps running capital escalations as before. On the other hand, bigger corps are still able to collapse at will having the bigger fleets, and therefore they're in the position to control access and siege systems if they want.
Why then, just make WHs utterly uncollapsable, that would level the ground completely at least, so WH space will becoem just an appendix of null... that would be more coherent, although still seriously wrong.
Anyway, if CCP just wants to reduce the number of people and the amount of content generated in WH space, this is for sure the best way. It will end with a further loss in subscriptions, but, hey, they don't care about those right? Of course this is quite the opposite of what Fozzie said was his intent, so he's either a fool or a liar... unless of course we are all missing something, but as there's still NO response about this from Fozzie or any CCP, we should probably assume the previous options are the right ones |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
113
|
Posted - 2014.10.21 03:46:09 -
[2328] - Quote
Andre Coeurl wrote:After a while, it's clear how this change puts small corps in a very unsustainable situation because it's impossible to roll WHs with any reasonable degree of safety, so not only there's very little chance they'll run capital escalations anymore, but they'll also be unable to collapse for the purpose of finding new targets for PVP if the available chain doesn't provide anything.
This means LESS CONTENT for everyone, not just for the corp affected, but also for the bigger corps who still can chain-collapse... they simply won't find as many corps running capital escalations as before. On the other hand, bigger corps are still able to collapse at will having the bigger fleets, and therefore they're in the position to control access and siege systems if they want.
Why then, just make WHs utterly uncollapsable, that would level the ground completely at least, so WH space will becoem just an appendix of null... that would be more coherent, although still seriously wrong.
Anyway, if CCP just wants to reduce the number of people and the amount of content generated in WH space, this is for sure the best way. It will end with a further loss in subscriptions, but, hey, they don't care about those right? Of course this is quite the opposite of what Fozzie said was his intent, so he's either a fool or a liar... unless of course we are all missing something, but as there's still NO response about this from Fozzie or any CCP, we should probably assume the previous options are the right ones
If wormholes were populated with active people most of what you said would be true. But let's call it like it is. 19 times out of 20 your static is a ghost town and this terrible mechanic doesn't effect anything. It's only that 1 time out of 20 that grinds content to a screeching halt. |
Kirasten
No Vacancies
113
|
Posted - 2014.10.21 03:52:31 -
[2329] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:I would bet this would have a totally different outcome if we argued that our wh jump freighter stuff would be crippled.
So......
Hey, CCP this mass/range change just screwed my JF stuff. Could you please cave in???
(20 min until removed) (19:59) (19:58)
I loled |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
26
|
Posted - 2014.10.22 00:30:59 -
[2330] - Quote
Still no CCP response. Almost 2 months ago was the last one!
To be honest I still cant fathom why its so difficult to even post a "don't worry we're still here!" reply, even if it doesn't show any fancy graphs or anything. At least show us that you are still reading this and are taking on board what we've said here. A reply showing us how we were all wrong with statistics to show for it would be brilliant (although the graphs would probably show the opposite), but I'd be alright with any communication at this point!
Really feels like the devs are playing the "lets ignore it and they will be quiet eventually" card at this point. If that's the case, then I do have to ask what was the point in this thread if you were just going to ignore everything said here without addressing everyone's concerns about this issue. As Corbexx has probably told you a million times, communicate with us already! |
|
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
248
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 13:45:24 -
[2331] - Quote
+1 to wanting CCP to respond.
|
Enthropic
Infinite Point Nulli Secunda
161
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 16:16:48 -
[2332] - Quote
I waited for a response until a few days ago. We then took down our tower, sold all our crap (therefore you cant have it) and unsubscribed our alts.
gg |
Rek Seven
Probe Patrol
1945
|
Posted - 2014.10.23 17:55:38 -
[2333] - Quote
wow people are still wasting their time in this thread?
It's staying the way it is guys. Get over it and move on!
+1
|
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
75
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 10:01:44 -
[2334] - Quote
Rek Seven wrote:wow people are still wasting their time in this thread? It's staying the way it is guys. Get over it and move on!
Wait this isn't the place to come when there is nothing to do after scanning endless chains of empty WH's
On a side note this silence from devs is actually pretty bad. Where are the graphs promised. Hell Id even take a you guys are worrying over nothing, over silence anyday
Its gone from being a discussion about the changes to a place where we can talk about CCP's feedback to players on their concerns (lack of)
(also is it just me or has the like post button disappeared?)
Edit: restructured a sentence for better understanding
So Much Space
|
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
53
|
Posted - 2014.10.24 19:27:36 -
[2335] - Quote
Like button is there for me. Unlike the response from CCP.
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
|
Kirasten
No Vacancies
115
|
Posted - 2014.10.26 18:22:18 -
[2336] - Quote
Pritovsky Pootis wrote:Still no CCP response. Almost 2 months ago was the last one!
To be honest I still cant fathom why its so difficult to even post a "don't worry we're still here!" reply, even if it doesn't show any fancy graphs or anything. At least show us that you are still reading this and are taking on board what we've said here. A reply showing us how we were all wrong with statistics to show for it would be brilliant (although the graphs would probably show the opposite), but I'd be alright with any communication at this point!
Really feels like the devs are playing the "lets ignore it and they will be quiet eventually" card at this point. If that's the case, then I do have to ask what was the point in this thread if you were just going to ignore everything said here without addressing everyone's concerns about this issue. As Corbexx has probably told you a million times, communicate with us already!
You are incorrect. The "let us ignore it and they will be quiet eventually" card implies that they have been reading it. They stopped responding 2 months ago, because they got all the information they wanted from us 2 months ago. |
Nero Pantera
Whale Girth Grand Sky Wizards
71
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 19:53:30 -
[2337] - Quote
Just a monthly reminder that no one has forgotten ccp.
Never forget - 2014 the year CCP set there phone on vibrate only. |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
26
|
Posted - 2014.10.28 21:54:01 -
[2338] - Quote
Kirasten wrote:Pritovsky Pootis wrote:Still no CCP response. Almost 2 months ago was the last one!
To be honest I still cant fathom why its so difficult to even post a "don't worry we're still here!" reply, even if it doesn't show any fancy graphs or anything. At least show us that you are still reading this and are taking on board what we've said here. A reply showing us how we were all wrong with statistics to show for it would be brilliant (although the graphs would probably show the opposite), but I'd be alright with any communication at this point!
Really feels like the devs are playing the "lets ignore it and they will be quiet eventually" card at this point. If that's the case, then I do have to ask what was the point in this thread if you were just going to ignore everything said here without addressing everyone's concerns about this issue. As Corbexx has probably told you a million times, communicate with us already! You are incorrect. The "let us ignore it and they will be quiet eventually" card implies that they have been reading it. They stopped responding 2 months ago, because they got all the information they wanted from us 2 months ago.
Sadly I have to admit this is probably true. Although, if they are reading this by any chance, my question still stands.
What was the point of this thread, CCP? |
B0T0
X Legion
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.29 19:15:29 -
[2339] - Quote
CSM9Summer_Minutes end of page 76 wrote:Corbexx asked what's going on with the wormhole population. CCP Fozzie said they've been watching it and will continue to do so, but that numbers are pretty balanced in terms of who's leaving, who's arriving, and that kills are pretty stable. The big difference is just that the people leaving are noisier.
Looks like WH space is alive ;)
01010111 00101101 01110011 01110000 01100001 01100011 01100101 00101100 00100000 01100010
01100101 01110011 01110100 00100000 01110011 01110000 01100001 01100011 01100101 00100001
|
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.30 07:44:49 -
[2340] - Quote
B0T0 wrote:CSM9Summer_Minutes end of page 76 wrote:Corbexx asked what's going on with the wormhole population. CCP Fozzie said they've been watching it and will continue to do so, but that numbers are pretty balanced in terms of who's leaving, who's arriving, and that kills are pretty stable. The big difference is just that the people leaving are noisier. Looks like WH space is alive ;)
Hardly. These were taken on 17th-19th September and he probably pulled the stats before that. That was less than 3 weeks after the release of Hyperion. People had not even started moving out then, waiting to see if things were going to get fixed.
CCP should learn that they can make mistakes and ignoring them, and trying other things to 'fix' it (like boosting loot value in C1-C3) just annoys people because it's so transparent. |
|
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 07:05:58 -
[2341] - Quote
Dalron wrote:B0T0 wrote:CSM9Summer_Minutes end of page 76 wrote:Corbexx asked what's going on with the wormhole population. CCP Fozzie said they've been watching it and will continue to do so, but that numbers are pretty balanced in terms of who's leaving, who's arriving, and that kills are pretty stable. The big difference is just that the people leaving are noisier. Looks like WH space is alive ;) Hardly. These were taken on 17th-19th September and he probably pulled the stats before that. That was less than 3 weeks after the release of Hyperion. People had not even started moving out then, waiting to see if things were going to get fixed. CCP should learn that they can make mistakes and ignoring them, and trying other things to 'fix' it (like boosting loot value in C1-C3) just annoys people because it's so transparent.
This might work..
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=382243&find=unread
Maybe. |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
612
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 11:16:09 -
[2342] - Quote
It's not going to help. The mass/range mechanic sux. This doesn't change that. It will add 1 additional poor option to the selection of poor options when rolling a wh.
This rig makes your ship slower, so using it will make the crawl back to the wh about 4 times as long. So, the mass range thing tripled your travel distance (and therefore tripled the time) back to the wh and a lot of folks pulled the D-ring on wh living. Cutting the speed of a ship by 75% and increasing the time back to the wh by a factor of 4 probably isn't going to bring them back.
Prohint: This rig makes rolling take even longer for C5/C6 which is not helping anything as far as rolling a hole goes.
Unless I'm missing something I don't see how this will help rolling (in C5/C6). In lower class wh it may be of greater use - There may be some unique fitting/ship combo that greatly improves rolling abilities with a BS or something. If it gets more guys back in the low end wh... that would be a start.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
612
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 11:28:52 -
[2343] - Quote
B0T0 wrote:CSM9Summer_Minutes end of page 76 wrote:Corbexx asked what's going on with the wormhole population. CCP Fozzie said they've been watching it and will continue to do so, but that numbers are pretty balanced in terms of who's leaving, who's arriving, and that kills are pretty stable. The big difference is just that the people leaving are noisier. Looks like WH space is alive ;)
I'm pretty good w/ numbers, charts and graphs AND I don't believe Fozzie on this one. I'd like to see the numbers and draw my own conclusions.
POS (with active forcefield) by wh class over the past year. NPC kills by wh class and type over the past year. PVP kills by wh class and type over the last year.
Don't get fancy w/ % change or any other crap, just the flat out numbers over time.
Until these get put out I have no faith in any 3rd hand report - especially one that ends with the slightly derogatory term 'nosier' I think a better way of putting it would have been 'the peopl leaving are more interested in the effects of the recent changes on their game'. It would be more accurate and convey a lot less contempt for the players. |
Dalron
Infinite Holdings Ltd
9
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 11:57:06 -
[2344] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:It's not going to help. The mass/range mechanic sux. This doesn't change that. It will add 1 additional poor option to the selection of poor options when rolling a wh.
This rig makes your ship slower, so using it will make the crawl back to the wh about 4 times as long. So, the mass range thing tripled your travel distance (and therefore tripled the time) back to the wh and a lot of folks pulled the D-ring on wh living. Cutting the speed of a ship by 75% and increasing the time back to the wh by a factor of 4 probably isn't going to bring them back.
Prohint: This rig makes rolling take even longer for C5/C6 which is not helping anything as far as rolling a hole goes.
Unless I'm missing something I don't see how this will help rolling (in C5/C6). In lower class wh it may be of greater use - There may be some unique fitting/ship combo that greatly improves rolling abilities with a BS or something. If it gets more guys back in the low end wh... that would be a start.
Looking in the rigs thread it cuts down warping time by around 50% so jump through, warp off to a celestial/make a BM 300km off the WH. Warp back, jump through.
Batteships becomes as big as Orcas, halves effective time/jumps for small corps to close it out. It does make you even more in trouble if there's a HIC or similar there but thats why you have a scout.
|
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
612
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 13:10:42 -
[2345] - Quote
Dalron wrote:Serendipity Lost wrote:It's not going to help. The mass/range mechanic sux. This doesn't change that. It will add 1 additional poor option to the selection of poor options when rolling a wh.
This rig makes your ship slower, so using it will make the crawl back to the wh about 4 times as long. So, the mass range thing tripled your travel distance (and therefore tripled the time) back to the wh and a lot of folks pulled the D-ring on wh living. Cutting the speed of a ship by 75% and increasing the time back to the wh by a factor of 4 probably isn't going to bring them back.
Prohint: This rig makes rolling take even longer for C5/C6 which is not helping anything as far as rolling a hole goes.
Unless I'm missing something I don't see how this will help rolling (in C5/C6). In lower class wh it may be of greater use - There may be some unique fitting/ship combo that greatly improves rolling abilities with a BS or something. If it gets more guys back in the low end wh... that would be a start.
Looking in the rigs thread it cuts down warping time by around 50% so jump through, warp off to a celestial/make a BM 300km off the WH. Warp back, jump through. Batteships becomes as big as Orcas, halves effective time/jumps for small corps to close it out. It does make you even more in trouble if there's a HIC or similar there but thats why you have a scout. So the benefit is to those that choose to warp to a bounce and warp back based on faster align times?
Hahahaha. Your casual "but that's why you have a scout" is only good for fresh wh that you opened. Remember you don't see the incoming I scanned until after I warp my hic there, cloak it up and then jump my scout in. For rage rolling this is a plus, but to all other wh rolling it's nothing. The 75% speed reduction is a death sentence for any BS / ORCA that does get caught in a bubble.
I'd say this rig makes the Devoter even sweeter w/ it's new damage buff. Uncloak, pop bubble, approach stranded BS, apply webs and scram when in range and kill it. You even get dishonor drones (that's ec-300s) to knock down the BS dps. OR any HIC and a rapier. (throw in a bomber or 2 to make quick work of your prey)
So I'll agree it's a great rig that aids rolling if you'll agree to the caviat the everything has to go as planned.
|
Jack Hayson
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
18
|
Posted - 2014.10.31 16:02:54 -
[2346] - Quote
Serendipity Lost wrote:Your casual "but that's why you have a scout" is only good for fresh wh that you opened... ... and when you are absolutely certain that no one probed it. Otherwise a well timed dictor warpin can really ruin your day. (ask Ministry about that one ) |
Tiger Tesla
Periphery Bound Dominatus Atrum Mortis
49
|
Posted - 2014.11.02 02:59:38 -
[2347] - Quote
Still confirming that CCP has yet to address the actual effects of the Hyperion update, and it seems they are making other adjustments to wormhole income now to offset any negative effect they have seen from Hyperion.
CCP Fozzie. Simply responding to this thread or posting the blog you promised us with numbers/metrics measuring the health of wormhole space BEFORE you attempt to patch over the issue would be greatly appreciated by the entire WH community. Show us that your predictions were right, because if you don't do that we assume the opposite. |
Niskin
League of the Lost
16
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 15:09:05 -
[2348] - Quote
Just spitballing here...
It's possible to take an Orca, put a powergrid rig on it and then it can fit a 100MN MWD. With two agility rigs (possibly even without them, haven't tested it) the "MWD into warp" trick works and you can be gone in 10 seconds for a bounce. With two WCS's in the lows you limit your potential tacklers to bubbles, HIC's, or having enough people to get 3 points on you. So you end up with a relatively slippery Orca. I'm curious if a Higgs rig could be squeezed into that fit and if it would allow the Slippery Orca to be a more powerful hole roller?
Not sure if it's even helpful, it was just an idea that crossed my mind. |
Pritovsky Pootis
Eschelon Directive Universal Consortium
29
|
Posted - 2014.11.03 22:10:54 -
[2349] - Quote
Tiger Tesla wrote:Still confirming that CCP has yet to address the actual effects of the Hyperion update, and it seems they are making other adjustments to wormhole income now to offset any negative effect they have seen from Hyperion.
CCP Fozzie. Simply responding to this thread or posting the blog you promised us with numbers/metrics measuring the health of wormhole space BEFORE you attempt to patch over the issue would be greatly appreciated by the entire WH community. Show us that your predictions were right, because if you don't do that we assume the opposite.
Quoted for truth |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
208
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 10:22:45 -
[2350] - Quote
Tiger Tesla wrote:Still confirming that CCP has yet to address the actual effects of the Hyperion update, and it seems they are making other adjustments to wormhole income now to offset any negative effect they have seen from Hyperion.
CCP Fozzie. Simply responding to this thread or posting the blog you promised us with numbers/metrics measuring the health of wormhole space BEFORE you attempt to patch over the issue would be greatly appreciated by the entire WH community. Show us that your predictions were right, because if you don't do that we assume the opposite.
What would the actual negative effect be in your opinion?
Wormhole space is entering a new golden era today. |
|
Faren Shalni
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
78
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 11:06:23 -
[2351] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:Tiger Tesla wrote:Still confirming that CCP has yet to address the actual effects of the Hyperion update, and it seems they are making other adjustments to wormhole income now to offset any negative effect they have seen from Hyperion.
CCP Fozzie. Simply responding to this thread or posting the blog you promised us with numbers/metrics measuring the health of wormhole space BEFORE you attempt to patch over the issue would be greatly appreciated by the entire WH community. Show us that your predictions were right, because if you don't do that we assume the opposite. What would the actual negative effect be in your opinion? Wormhole space is entering a new golden era today.
That remains to be seen however I am looking forward to the changes to loot.
Since Hyperion WH have been in a Lull (not including sieges as they are attempts to break the boredom) lets hope phoebe brings some content
So Much Space
|
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
208
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 11:31:52 -
[2352] - Quote
"Lull" isn't true in subcap w-space :)
Also stats show that w-space kills last month were higher than before Hyperion.
|
Tiger Tesla
Periphery Bound Dominatus Atrum Mortis
50
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 14:02:56 -
[2353] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:"Lull" isn't true in subcap w-space :)
Also stats show that w-space kills last month were higher than before Hyperion.
My favorite part was where you backed up your statement with facts. This might be the trend you are referring to.
But one month is hardly a trend. And I would hardly call that higher, just because it was higher than the month before Hyperion. |
Lloyd Roses
Blue-Fire
735
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 14:10:27 -
[2354] - Quote
Dalron wrote:B0T0 wrote:CSM9Summer_Minutes end of page 76 wrote:Corbexx asked what's going on with the wormhole population. CCP Fozzie said they've been watching it and will continue to do so, but that numbers are pretty balanced in terms of who's leaving, who's arriving, and that kills are pretty stable. The big difference is just that the people leaving are noisier. Looks like WH space is alive ;) Hardly. These were taken on 17th-19th September and he probably pulled the stats before that. That was less than 3 weeks after the release of Hyperion. People had not even started moving out then, waiting to see if things were going to get fixed. CCP should learn that they can make mistakes and ignoring them, and trying other things to 'fix' it (like boosting loot value in C1-C3) just annoys people because it's so transparent.
I'm so thankful for hyperion every single day, because wormholes are damn awesome again and because of boneheads/farmers whining over it :D
Whoever leaves whs for the hyperion changes clearly won't be missed, the risk-averse, the crybabies as well as the API addicted gone, this will be a fabulous winter.
"I honestly thought I was in lowsec"
|
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
115
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 14:50:20 -
[2355] - Quote
King Fu Hostile wrote:"Lull" isn't true in subcap w-space :)
Also stats show that w-space kills last month were higher than before Hyperion.
Show the stats please. And comparing 2 month is not a trend and some left already before Hyperion. Anyway. Official statistics please. |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
247
|
Posted - 2014.11.04 15:02:25 -
[2356] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:"Lull" isn't true in subcap w-space :)
Also stats show that w-space kills last month were higher than before Hyperion.
Show the stats please. And comparing 2 month is not a trend and some left already before Hyperion. Anyway. Official statistics please.
You won't get official stats because the stats prove Fozzie screwed the pooch on this one.
For those who disagree: I point you towards CCP's enthusiasm when releasing kill data on Burners. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1332
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 00:19:07 -
[2357] - Quote
Whilst the changes are really welcome in pheobe, and will do a great deal to encourage people to stay in lower class wormholes, It does not change the opinion on random jump spawn mechanics in any way, the idea was a bad one, remains a bad one, and will be a toxic memory and a blight (yes in this sense it applies) on wormhole life as long as it exists. It is a running sore that will never heal, amputation is the only solution.
I do not want to focus on this, I do not even want to have to remember it exists, but every time one jumps a hole it is rubbed in one's face like a piece of rotting shark.
Please Fozzie, your recent work and that of your team is a tour de force. Excellent work! This horrid mechanic does neither the players any good, or your team any credit by continuing to exist. Thanks for reading (hopefully)
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
|
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
686
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 07:34:45 -
[2358] - Quote
The only lasting effect of that change is that people who don't have the manpower to back up hole-collapsing capitals mostly stopped rolling holes, and by extension stopped living in capital-escalation space.
They had no business living there in the first place so that is totally fine.
And now it is less of a problem than ever before because CCP made low-class a very viable place to live once again. The small-corp isk farmers should just give up on c5 and come back where they belong, into a nice c2 with c4 static.
.
|
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1332
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 08:17:30 -
[2359] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:The only lasting effect of that change is that people who don't have the manpower to back up hole-collapsing capitals mostly stopped rolling holes, and by extension stopped living in capital-escalation space.
They had no business living there in the first place so that is totally fine.
And now it is less of a problem than ever before because CCP made low-class a very viable place to live once again. The small-corp isk farmers should just give up on c5 and come back where they belong, into a nice c2 with c4 static. Not going to reopen the whole can of worms again, but 104 pages prior disagree with that.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
|
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
209
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 12:04:51 -
[2360] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:"Lull" isn't true in subcap w-space :)
Also stats show that w-space kills last month were higher than before Hyperion.
Show the stats please. And comparing 2 month is not a trend and some left already before Hyperion. Anyway. Official statistics please. PS: If that would be the reality without any limitations we defenitely would have seen a blog here linked by fozzie about this ;) So if you refer to the link 2 Posts earlier. This is just ISK, not Kills. If you follow WH Action you know what maybe happened to ADHC in October and maybe as well the damage just by this one extraordinary Event, which had nothing to do with Hyperion? ;) Just saying.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=382952&find=unread
Yes, the data is a sampled, limited subset of "w-space", but I regard the entities here as a pretty good sample of the general w-space community, and if anything, it lacks a large number of active corps and alliances that aren't interested in forum metagames or being on this ego list.
CCP Fozzie wrote:[deaths in] Wormholes are static. Jumps in high, low, and wormholes appear to be stable. ... CCP Fozzi esaid they've been watching it and will continue to do so, but that numbers are pretty balanced in terms of who's leaving, who's arriving, and that kills are pretty stable. The big difference is just that the people leaving are noisier.
Our alliance's experience support these, wormhole space is active.
Now it's your turn to present your "official statistics" that would support your tinfoilery. |
|
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 13:08:59 -
[2361] - Quote
I have never said wormhole is not active! It's much less active!
At the moment I saw more movements the last 2 weeks, but that has for sure in most cases something to do with Phoebe announcement, which for me is just a confession by Fozzie that Hyperion went not as expected!
King Fu Hostile wrote:Fluffi Flaffi wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:"Lull" isn't true in subcap w-space :)
Also stats show that w-space kills last month were higher than before Hyperion.
Show the stats please. And comparing 2 month is not a trend and some left already before Hyperion. Anyway. Official statistics please. PS: If that would be the reality without any limitations we defenitely would have seen a blog here linked by fozzie about this ;) So if you refer to the link 2 Posts earlier. This is just ISK, not Kills. If you follow WH Action you know what maybe happened to ADHC in October and maybe as well the damage just by this one extraordinary Event, which had nothing to do with Hyperion? ;) Just saying. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=382952&find=unread Yes, the data is a sampled, limited subset of "w-space", but I regard the entities here as a pretty good sample of the general w-space community, and if anything, it lacks a large number of active corps and alliances that aren't interested in forum metagames or being on this ego list.
Thanks. I take really just a short look on your sample and even there I see more my theory proven than yours.
I doubt you have checked the figures by yourself in Detail. Take a look what happened when Hyperion was announced and finally released. Take a look on the number of repoting Corps / alliances in October compared to the months in Q2!
Your sample is mainly reflecting Corps / alliances from higher class wormholes as far as I can judge about this and says therefore only little about lower classes. And I think it's common sense that especially higher class wormholes with bigger Corps / Alliances are not affected much by Hyperion, but especially lower class wormholes and small corps were ... that's why only CCP can give valid data or somebody is doing the work and summarise zkillboard.com Wormhole Kills for 2014 ... that may be a reliable overall wh-source
What I saw rougly from the kill summary list of your link: - W-Space Kills decreased when Hyperion was announced and finally released, with just one exception, October, where you can Count ADHC eviction as exceptional Event and then it is in line with the months before. - October 2014 has more counted Corps / Alliances than April, so a deeper breakdown on the Corps with kill history since April may even make the table look worse with regard to ovarall activity - K-Space Killvalue increased from the Moment Hyperion was announced, which is reflecting what you can read here often in the Forums as well, that some are seeking their PvP outside of W-Space due to lack of activity.
Your turn I guess. :)
King Fu Hostile wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:[deaths in] Wormholes are static. Jumps in high, low, and wormholes appear to be stable. ... CCP Fozzi esaid they've been watching it and will continue to do so, but that numbers are pretty balanced in terms of who's leaving, who's arriving, and that kills are pretty stable. The big difference is just that the people leaving are noisier.
Where did Fozzie wrote that? It's just quoted above, this may have been said by Fozzie on summit or not (I have no official link to that), but he can say everything he wants as nobody from us can prove it or not. Did he showed official stats? |
King Fu Hostile
Imperial Collective Unsettled.
209
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 14:47:07 -
[2362] - Quote
Did you post some stats supporting your theory or did I just miss them in your post?
|
Fluffi Flaffi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
116
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 15:08:37 -
[2363] - Quote
You missed my whole post maybe? |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
249
|
Posted - 2014.11.05 15:09:21 -
[2364] - Quote
Fluffi Flaffi wrote:King Fu Hostile wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:[deaths in] Wormholes are static. Jumps in high, low, and wormholes appear to be stable. ... CCP Fozzi esaid they've been watching it and will continue to do so, but that numbers are pretty balanced in terms of who's leaving, who's arriving, and that kills are pretty stable. The big difference is just that the people leaving are noisier. Where did Fozzie wrote that? It's just quoted above, this may have been said by Fozzie on summit or not (I have no official link to that), but he can say everything he wants as nobody from us can prove it or not. Did he showed official stats?
That was in the SEPTEMBER (as in seriously outdated) CSM minutes. It's hilarious that someone's trying to use that to say "nothing changed". |
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries Chelonaphobia
624
|
Posted - 2014.11.06 18:35:01 -
[2365] - Quote
corbex has also gone silent.... Hmmmmm.....
Has anyone ever seen cobex and fuzzie in the same place at the same time? I'd even accept pictoral evidence that they aren't the same person. |
Chicken Exroofer
Regional Assault and Recon
84
|
Posted - 2014.11.07 20:44:15 -
[2366] - Quote
Too little, too late. By years. Cumulative changes to wormholes over the last couple years, recent ones being the worst. No innovation, especially in gameplay.
Seen the latest Star Citizen demos? CCP makes enough money , and has God's own server. They could have been a contender.
Tower forcefield offline. Alts logged off in safe spots with cloaks. Stuff in a hisec station. Wonder if CCP ever does release wormhole occupancy rates, and counts logged off dormant accounts as residents? I'd say it's been fun, but I'd be lying.
Challenging, most definitely. For a while, that was enough.
In total, about 20 accounts that either have expired or will expire soon enough. Four of mine, the rest corpmates. We told you this is what would happen.
No you can't have my stuff.. |
epicurus ataraxia
Z3R0 Return Mining Inc. Illusion of Solitude
1341
|
Posted - 2014.11.08 21:45:29 -
[2367] - Quote
Chicken Exroofer wrote:Too little, too late. By years. Cumulative changes to wormholes over the last couple years, recent ones being the worst. No innovation, especially in gameplay.
Seen the latest Star Citizen demos? CCP makes enough money , and has God's own server. They could have been a contender.
Tower forcefield offline. Alts logged off in safe spots with cloaks. Stuff in a hisec station. Wonder if CCP ever does release wormhole occupancy rates, and counts logged off dormant accounts as residents? I'd say it's been fun, but I'd be lying.
Challenging, most definitely. For a while, that was enough.
In total, about 20 accounts that either have expired or will expire soon enough. Four of mine, the rest corpmates. We told you this is what would happen.
No you can't have my stuff..
There seems to be a great deal in the pipeline, we may simply have witnessed the "stick" part of the equation in Hyperion (and it was a big one) which will now be hopefully balanced by the carrot ( some of these changes are already arriving, and they are good).
Yes, when confronted by a large stick, people do not take it well. we had no Idea the carrot was to follow, and reacted accordingly.
There is something for CCP to learn here regarding their relationship with the players:-
If you remove hope, Please give the promise of hope to come, people are much more willing to travel on that journey with you then.
The best Journey is one where you travel hopefully, the destination is secondary.
[u]_There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE _[/u]
|
Mindo Junde
Bunnie Slayers Redrum Fleet
47
|
Posted - 2014.11.12 20:39:08 -
[2368] - Quote
Quote:There seems to be a great deal in the pipeline, we may simply have witnessed the "stick" part of the equation in Hyperion (and it was a big one) which will now be hopefully balanced by the carrot ( some of these changes are already arriving, and they are good).
Yes, when confronted by a large stick, people do not take it well. we had no Idea the carrot was to follow, and reacted accordingly.
There is something for CCP to learn here regarding their relationship with the players:-
If you remove hope, Please give the promise of hope to come, people are much more willing to travel on that journey with you then.
The best Journey is one where you travel hopefully, the destination is secondary.
Sorry to say but too many players are fed up with CCP's jam tomorrow routine, same old bullshit about AWESOME (tm) soon. It may be true this time but give how quiet its been in wh's of late i suspect that Hyperion was the proverbial last straw.
I remember a quote from not too long ago not sure it was Fozzie but it went something along lines of 'we won't mess with wormholes, thats one of the few areas in eve that works'
and I'm not too interested in SC, that still smells of scamware. Elite:Dangerous on the other hand is getting very promising and its looking very much like a direct competitor. |
AutumnWind1983
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
118
|
Posted - 2014.11.21 23:56:17 -
[2369] - Quote
Jumping three caps deep into someone's home and fighting outnumbered was one of my absolute favorite things to do in eve pre-change. Fozzie killed that by dropping caps out of refitting range unless I bring a nestor per cap. In C5/C6 space this change has little benefit at the cost of some of the funnest fights in I've experienced in eve.
James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org
|
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
633
|
Posted - 2014.12.13 13:08:45 -
[2370] - Quote
Still relevant.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
|
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Caleb Seremshur
The Atomic Fallout Kids
429
|
Posted - 2014.12.15 07:44:38 -
[2371] - Quote
Arya Regnar wrote:Still relevant.
No. Not as much as it's been made out.
Join channel Aussies in space to chat with AU/NZ players
|
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
57
|
Posted - 2014.12.20 13:43:20 -
[2372] - Quote
Wonder if they ever gonna show us the data...
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke
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Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
633
|
Posted - 2014.12.21 18:30:01 -
[2373] - Quote
I guess now it isn't so terribly bad since you can slightly mitigate the risk by just using a slowass tempest/apoc/raven/mega with higgs rig (it puts these 4 to just under 200 kt and with ab they get bumped to just under 300 kt).
It is still just as dangerous as it was but now you get to risk a 190m ship instead of an orca.
EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
|
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
557
|
Posted - 2014.12.22 10:59:15 -
[2374] - Quote
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar wrote:Wonder if they ever gonna show us the data...
I'll bet you a Guardian-Vexor they won't.
Arya Regnar wrote:I guess now it isn't so terribly bad since you can slightly mitigate the risk by just using a slowass tempest/apoc/raven/mega with higgs rig (it puts these 4 to just under 200 kt and with ab they get bumped to just under 300 kt). It is still just as dangerous as it was but now you get to risk a 190m ship instead of an orca.
Still just an attempt to cover up how badly they messed up in our minds.
Never forget: CCP Seagull and other Devs LIED to everyone during Fanfest and EVE Vegas: "Multiboxers have nothing to worry about" and "Nothing's changing regarding multiboxing".
If CCP is willing to lie about that, what's next?
|
Andre Coeurl
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
29
|
Posted - 2014.12.30 02:09:43 -
[2375] - Quote
So it looks like 2014 will close with the devs NOT showing us any evidence supporting their sticking to this mechanic,.nor answering to all the people telling them their choice was bad.
At least among those X-mas presents celebrating this year's events it would have been smart to have an "invisible Hyperion threadnought", maybe not as much as an actual answer but at least it would have been... funny? XD |
Nolak Ataru
Incursion Osprey Replacement Fund LLC
665
|
Posted - 2015.02.09 13:18:25 -
[2376] - Quote
Corbexx responds finally: http://corbexx.blogspot.com/2015/02/wormhole-report.html |
Tiger Tesla
Periphery Bound
58
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 01:43:37 -
[2377] - Quote
has it been stated what the trend was before? Due to a relative increase in "space junk" in wormhole space, could some of these poses also be offline? I know a lot of people just pack up shop and leave the sticks. Number of poses in space is a very strange way to base activity. Also, they buffed wormhole income with blue loot and t3 destroyers. What this fails to address is that CCP hurt wormholes before trying to sweeten the pot to bring people back/keep people there. The issue still remains how CCP disregarded many of the concerns and well reasoned arguments and pushed it through without the buffs that came later. Done all at once and wormholers might have been rejoicing in mass. |
KC Kamikaze
Blue-Fire
36
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 18:27:07 -
[2378] - Quote
That is completely useless information. Based on number of poses? Come on.
If I had a dollar for every wormhole with or near full moon coverage with small towers that I've seen I'd probably have about 50 dollars ... and if I owned those towers about 900 towers. The number of towers is a completely useless metric in determining an increase or decrease in the number of wspace residents.
I would love to see 7 day averages for the number of people logged off inside each class of wormhole pre and post each expansion. That would be a metric with value. |
Godfrey Silvarna
Arctic Light Inc. Arctic Light
269
|
Posted - 2015.02.10 18:40:51 -
[2379] - Quote
I have very much enjoyed the unpredictability this change has brought to wormhole collapsing. It has brought many good kills. |
Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
177
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Posted - 2015.02.10 19:07:32 -
[2380] - Quote
KC Kamikaze wrote:That is completely useless information. Based on number of poses? Come on. If I had a dollar for every wormhole with or near full moon coverage with small towers that I've seen I'd probably have about 50 dollars ... and if I owned those towers about 900 towers. The number of towers is a completely useless metric in determining an increase or decrease in the number of wspace residents. I would love to see 7 day averages for the number of people logged off inside each class of wormhole pre and post each expansion. That would be a metric with value.
Even that metric wouldn't be fully useful. I know I have 4 accounts worth of toons loged in a c2 cause its my PI wh.
And ya do those tower stats include offline towers? I know there are a couple in a C2 that I cant be bothered to remove (corp has been inactive for 2+ years) .
Sites run or holes closed prematurely (aka not end of natural life) would be a little more useful I think. |
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1233
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Posted - 2015.02.11 06:25:26 -
[2381] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote:KC Kamikaze wrote:That is completely useless information. Based on number of poses? Come on. If I had a dollar for every wormhole with or near full moon coverage with small towers that I've seen I'd probably have about 50 dollars ... and if I owned those towers about 900 towers. The number of towers is a completely useless metric in determining an increase or decrease in the number of wspace residents. I would love to see 7 day averages for the number of people logged off inside each class of wormhole pre and post each expansion. That would be a metric with value. Even that metric wouldn't be fully useful. I know I have 4 accounts worth of toons loged in a c2 cause its my PI wh. And ya do those tower stats include offline towers? I know there are a couple in a C2 that I cant be bothered to remove (corp has been inactive for 2+ years) . Sites run or holes closed prematurely (aka not end of natural life) would be a little more useful I think.
The next one is on NPC kills. But its having to be checked by a whole load of people.
Players logged off is something they can do how ever a break down in to 7 day cycles per class would more than likely have to be sorted through analytics.
The players logged along with pos numbers are a couple (very basic) ways of looking at growth in w space.
I'll have to ask about holes closed prematurely and see if I can get it broken down by class.
The other thing to remember is I don't always get what I ask for and even askingfor some of this stuff can take weeks (if not months).
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Lady Rift
What Shall We Call It
177
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:20:24 -
[2382] - Quote
corbexx wrote:Lady Rift wrote:KC Kamikaze wrote:That is completely useless information. Based on number of poses? Come on. If I had a dollar for every wormhole with or near full moon coverage with small towers that I've seen I'd probably have about 50 dollars ... and if I owned those towers about 900 towers. The number of towers is a completely useless metric in determining an increase or decrease in the number of wspace residents. I would love to see 7 day averages for the number of people logged off inside each class of wormhole pre and post each expansion. That would be a metric with value. Even that metric wouldn't be fully useful. I know I have 4 accounts worth of toons loged in a c2 cause its my PI wh. And ya do those tower stats include offline towers? I know there are a couple in a C2 that I cant be bothered to remove (corp has been inactive for 2+ years) . Sites run or holes closed prematurely (aka not end of natural life) would be a little more useful I think. The next one is on NPC kills. But its having to be checked by a whole load of people. Players logged off is something they can do how ever a break down in to 7 day cycles per class would more than likely have to be sorted through analytics. The players logged along with pos numbers are a couple (very basic) ways of looking at growth in w space. I'll have to ask about holes closed prematurely and see if I can get it broken down by class. The other thing to remember is I don't always get what I ask for and even asking for some of this stuff can take weeks (if not months).
I wasn't taking a shot at you and the fact you managed to get any data at all is nice. And really good to know that you are trying to get more.
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1234
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Posted - 2015.02.11 15:33:26 -
[2383] - Quote
Lady Rift wrote: I wasn't taking a shot at you and the fact you managed to get any data at all is nice. And really good to know that you are trying to get more.
I have more info the issue is I have to get it checked by a fair few people (couple in game design, CCP leeloo and then PR) for a couple reasons, firstly to make sure what i say is correct (CCP Fozzie was kind enough to not only check it but helped get me some more data to help clear some stuff up) and secondly to protect myself with the nda, once they ok it i'm totally fine to tell everyone. the down side is it takes a while and I didnt want to type everything up and them say no. hence its in small parts. Just waiting on PR to give the final go ahead for the next one.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1235
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Posted - 2015.02.11 22:00:46 -
[2384] - Quote
NPC kills info http://corbexx.blogspot.co.uk/2015/02/wormhole-report-2-npc-kills.html
yeah sucks I can't just post the graph. trust me would make my life way easier and sorry its probably hard to visualise and writing sucks.
tldr
NPC kill wise C1, C2, C4 and C5 doing really well C3 doing ok and C6 have dropped a bit. I don't have info on total data relic sites run in C1 to C3 but over all way more people are in space doing **** for others to come kill them.
Before people say all the NPC kill increase in C5 are farmers while some of the increase is from sleeper guardains (cap escalations) most is from other sleepers, so not just farmers.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Jack Miton
Isogen 5
4160
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Posted - 2015.02.11 22:27:25 -
[2385] - Quote
Are those POS numbers online or all POSs? Cos there's a difference.
Stuck In Here With Me:-á http://sihwm.blogspot.com.au/
Down the Pipe:-á http://downthepipe-wh.com/
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corbexx
eXceed Inc. No Holes Barred
1235
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Posted - 2015.02.11 23:10:20 -
[2386] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Are those POS numbers online or all POSs? Cos there's a difference. I'm asking they haven't got back to me. as its analytic's i have to go through people I can't just message them on skype like everyone else.
Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery Prolapse.
2065
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Posted - 2015.02.12 00:25:34 -
[2387] - Quote
My feeling from C1 to C4 space, and considering I have about 2500 POS bookmarks in about 2,000 systems by now, is that there's a lot of churn (I am deleting a fair few defunct BM's), but active POS's are slightly increasing. This is good because not only is there the requisite 1 POS per system, there's now more and more systems with 2+ active sticks.
There's also, I would say, a slight increase in the number of dead sticks due to placement of blocking towers in more and more holes.
oddly, the Christmas Pinata Season (ie, holiday defuelling season) was delayed to early Feb this year for some reason. No Christmas loot fairy, but it occurred end of January.
When Phoebe dropped there was a definite exodus and maybe 30% of C2's suddenly became empty. Now there's no longer very many, maybe 2-5%, mostly the E545-N062's and some of the lowsec C2's. most U210 C3's are full again.
Part of this exodus was the table flip factor. Part was people switching their holes to adjust to the new meta with C4's. But the disruption is definitely over.
hashtagTF4CSMX
http://www.localectomy.blogspot.com.au
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Nolak Ataru
KarmaFleet Goonswarm Federation
821
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Posted - 2015.04.12 20:17:11 -
[2388] - Quote
Bump. Tinukeda'ya Naskingar so far owes me a G-Vexor. Anyone else want to make a wager? |
motie one
Secret Passage
17
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Posted - 2015.05.24 22:44:48 -
[2389] - Quote
Wow, thought this thread was long dead, clearly not.
The mass spawn change was bad when brought in, is still bad, and had precisely the effect that the players predicted.
Who could guess?
Any good that happened in hyperion, was purely in spite of this change.
Any chance of it ever getting returned to a common sense mechanic? |
Alundil
Isogen 5
963
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Posted - 2015.05.24 22:52:01 -
[2390] - Quote
Nolak Ataru wrote:Bump. Tinukeda'ya Naskingar so far owes me a G-Vexor. Anyone else want to make a wager? Good grief - "calling in a gambling debt" looong after everyone stopped caring and on a wager never accepted.
lol
For a necro.....I'll allow it
;)
I'm right behind you
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Omega Flames
Radical Astronauts Plundering Eve WormHole Occupation and Resource Exploitation
101
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Posted - 2015.08.19 22:13:52 -
[2391] - Quote
over a year later and this is still relevant and still wanting to be removed by plenty of those still living in wh space. |
calaretu
Unsettled Unsettled.
368
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Posted - 2015.08.20 04:27:29 -
[2392] - Quote
Omega Flames wrote:over a year later and this is still relevant and still wanting to be removed by plenty of those still living in wh space.
Wrong. Still a good change that has opened up the viabilaty of ship setups beyond the old t3-only.
Pls let this thread die in peace. It is so tired and wish to just be left alone by itself in a dark corner.
~Bringer of happiness
http://collapsedbehind.blogspot.no/
.ORLY is recruiting
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GizzyBoy
Aperture Harmonics K162
181
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Posted - 2015.08.20 06:06:58 -
[2393] - Quote
I've almost forgotten it was a thing.
Still killed more than we lost and got fights when prior there wouldn't have been any. |
Aladar Dangerface
13. Enigma Project
216
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Posted - 2015.08.20 09:09:20 -
[2394] - Quote
I have to agree with calaretu and Gizzyboy.
I was on the rage bandwagon when it was announced but this change generates content (killed an archon trying to ninja roll in our home hole just last night) and the vast majority of people living in whs have adapted and find this a non-issue now.
So many people get kills they wouldn't have had before this change so I would be more annoyed now if they rolled it back than I was when it was announced.
I don't need twitter.
I'm already following you.
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Seraph Essael
eXceed Inc. Triumvirate.
1133
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Posted - 2015.08.20 09:19:43 -
[2395] - Quote
GizzyBoy wrote:I've almost forgotten it was a thing.
Still killed more than we lost and got fights when prior there wouldn't have been any. I remember this one time, there was a Domi, Loki and Devoter rolling a hole. And us in 12 "quick grab a ******* ship, any ship, and warp to me because they just switched from a Domi to a Moros" ships. Biggest Domi I've ever seen...
This change is good, adds for more viable ship types to be used (Lighter, faster, shield ships for a start).
Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."
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Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
317
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Posted - 2015.08.20 11:05:07 -
[2396] - Quote
Wormhole(r) - CCP relationship is like a sub-dom relationship without a safeword or any aftercare. CCP basically 50 shades of greyed wormholes and almost a year later it's still a mess going by all the bugs, half done and broken features and unmet promises.
Pretty much exactly as expected and predicted. Good to see WH residents themselves adapting somewhat despite this so kudos there. Them doing the same thing to Null does give me some kind of perverse pleasure though |
Bleedingthrough
189
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Posted - 2015.08.20 11:36:15 -
[2397] - Quote
Aladar Dangerface wrote: I was on the rage bandwagon when it was announced
Me too. The times they are rapidly changing in EvE, at times too fast for an old fart like me.
In retrospect most Hyperion changes turned out to be very decent and I doubt this would have been possible without us giving CCP our honest opinions.
/R.I.P. thread |
Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1337
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Posted - 2015.08.20 12:50:57 -
[2398] - Quote
nice necro you shitters, proving that whining never stops~
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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HoruSeth
Republic University Minmatar Republic
991
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Posted - 2015.08.20 14:37:29 -
[2399] - Quote
I don't care anymore. CCP will not change it back, so no need to necro that thread here.
I am still angry about the comunication behaviour so, but I have adapted to the change ingame. No reason to ask again for statistics, reasons, answers and don't get any (!) feedback.
With me is not good cherry eating, but you can steal horses with me.
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Andrew Jester
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
1339
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Posted - 2015.08.20 16:12:52 -
[2400] - Quote
don't you know that if you post loudly enough CCP will TOTALLY respond. That's why they've done something about null WHs after all those people made threads about it
If thuggin' was a category I'd win a Grammy
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Ghenghis Kralj
Big Johnson's P I R A T
113
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Posted - 2015.08.21 15:16:42 -
[2401] - Quote
i love the "hey we got a kill so it must be good!" logic used here |
Tsukino Stareine
Sock Robbers Inc. Low-Class
1326
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Posted - 2015.08.21 19:14:35 -
[2402] - Quote
Ghenghis Kralj wrote:i love the "hey we got a kill so it must be good!" logic used here
So you prefer the old way where they can just drop a rolling cap in your face and not get punished for it? |
Anize Oramara
The Arch Dashing Dashers
321
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Posted - 2015.08.22 03:59:40 -
[2403] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Ghenghis Kralj wrote:i love the "hey we got a kill so it must be good!" logic used here So you prefer the old way where they can just drop a rolling cap in your face and not get punished for it? You mean where you had to grow a pair and put your fleet through before the cap got back through?
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Michael1995
Lazerhawks
199
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Posted - 2015.08.22 06:31:21 -
[2404] - Quote
Tsukino Stareine wrote:Ghenghis Kralj wrote:i love the "hey we got a kill so it must be good!" logic used here So you prefer the old way where they can just drop a rolling cap in your face and not get punished for it?
I dunno about you but we'd leeroy pretty hard into rolling dudes if we saw it coming, but then again you didn't really have much time to react. That and apparently risking getting rolled out from your home is really bad these days, so no point in trying.
Selling WH CFC Standings
10b/month for +10 with:
Lazerhawks,
Hard Knocks Citizens,
E X P L O S I O N,
Sleeper Social Club,
Isogen 5,
Sky Fighters.
Join up for swag drake ganks with guardian fleets and chain rolling C1s for more dank drake ganks!
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