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Barzai Mekhar
True Confusion
168
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Posted - 2014.08.16 18:09:00 -
[91] - Quote
Paynus Maiassus wrote:Hanna Cyrus wrote:OMG.
Wardec him, thats what the mechanik for.
Grab yourself some miningships and do the same, if you think it's easy money.
I only had problems with a multi boxer once for a while. The guy's toons were all in NPC corps. He also had a freighter on site, so I assume the Orca was max tank. He also had a Scorpion on site, I assume to break the freighter's tackle. And this was in 0.7 so the gank force would have needed to be pretty big. The OP's concerns are valid. Everybody just flippantly tells him to "do something about it." Well only certain entities in Eve would have been capable of doing anything about the guy I ran into.
100mn stabber says "Hello". Procurers/Skiffs are really crappy when their ore hauler is thrown around and the lack of flexibility ISK boxers have in reacting when their working setup is disrupted makes things even more complicated for the miner. |
Dave Stark
6756
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 18:09:00 -
[92] - Quote
Faeana wrote: it's not balanced and it's why the belts are full of skiffs.
it's balanced because even a max yield skiff has less yield than a hulk. |
Jinrai Tremaine
Chaotic Mercs
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 18:18:00 -
[93] - Quote
Faeana wrote:These guys don't even need combat ships to defend their mining fleets while they earn billions in complete safety. They are using 10 or 20 industrial ships in a blob and require no combat ships for defense.
The lack of combat ships has nothing to do with the EHP of Skiffs/Procs and everything to do with the nature of combat in mining sites. Hisec NPCs are no threat to anyone with a couple of combat drones, so the only threat outside of a war is from gankers. Gankers are highly specialised for very rapid strikes - hit and run combat at it's finest. Because of this, outside of a very few exceptions there's nothing that "combat ships for defense" can do. The closest there is to a combat-ship counter to ganks is something like a rapid-locking Griffin set up with Gallente (and maybe Minmatar) jammers in the hope that you can stop a gank after they start (so that they get their criminal flag) but before their target dies. The problems with that are: 1) Mackinaws and Hulks are weak enough that there's a very fine margin to hit. 2) An alt in a combat ship with a mining fleet is an alt who could be adding to their ISK by mining instead. 3) Riding shotgun on a mining operation is quite possibly the single most boring activity in all of EVE.
Even if Skiffs did not have their current tank, none of the rest of that would change - we didn't see belts full of combat ships before Odyssey, for example.
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:If they are actually orbiting the Orca, then he is doing it to reduce the amount of commands he has to give. Use a Machariel or something to bump it away from the belt.
When the Freighter arrives, bump it too. Neither of those ships can do jack all against a dedicated bumper without backup, so they won't be going anywhere.
It will **** him off pretty quickly.
People have tried this against my fleet before, enough that I actually have a counter tactic. I drop an MTU and have miners orbit that, let them bump the orca as much as they like and rely on warping the freighter in, jetcanning before it lands, scooping the jetcans and warping out again before serious bumping can happen (fitting the freighter for agility is a huge help there). Bumping works a lot better against ISBoxers, though - they can't adapt nearly as well or as fast as a manal locust like myself. Plus most miners, even other locusts, simply don't have that much experience with being bumped, or else aren't paying enough attention to respond before they're 50km outside the belt.
Faeana wrote:I assure you, these guys do not pay to win. They earn enough isk to pay for all of their accounts with plex bought from the market. No money from their pockets will come to EVE. They really are just locusts, not just in the ice fields, but the game in general.
All my accounts are kept active via PLEX and (I assume) the same is true for other locusts, not to mention most solo miners. I'm not sure why anyone would put in the effort if it didn't at least result in the accounts being self-supporting. On the other hand, why do people buy PLEX from CCP? To sell to other players in return for ISK. My actions make ISK available for those players to buy with PLEX. Demand from all of us locusts actually raises the price of PLEX, which in turn encourages more people to buy them from CCP - their IRL money will now get them more ingame ISK!
TL;DR: A player buying PLEX from CCP is doing so because other players will give them ISK for it. Without locusts there to provide that ISK, CCP wouldn't sell as many PLEX.
Faeana wrote:What about the guy who multiboxes 10 to 20 procurers, he is allowed to have a massive solo industrial operation yet it require a large number of players teaming together to have any impact on him?
It takes either a large number of players working together, or one player with a lot of accounts (and possibly coordination software like ISBoxer) to have an impact on what is either a large number of players working together or one player with a lot of accounts?
Gosh, that's a shocking concept.
Terbulus wrote:I betcha I have more fun with my single account purely pvping then the 'locust swarm' people have spending hours each day mining ice to cover their 12 accounts. time is money. EVE is for having fun, it is not a job or a chore.
For what it's worth, I actually enjoy running a large-scale fleet myself, not to mention working out ways I can get better at controlling it and improving efficiency. I know that doesn't appeal to most EVE players and I'm not expecting that it should, but I do like that EVE as a game lets me do that, just as it lets you go out and shoot people for your amusement. |
Charles Muffins
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 18:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
I quit mining ice because of the competition.
Also, if you're looking for a way to get some ice solo, just launch a cargo container with a message threatening anyone who touches it. While this might not stop people entirely, it will definitely be the last asteroid to be mined. |
Faeana
State War Academy
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 18:20:00 -
[95] - Quote
Angeal MacNova wrote:Saisin wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:
You do realise that CCP make ton of cash of these guys who multibox.
I question the validity of this statement... In fact IsBoxer allows to exponentially increase income for one single player. after an important expense to set their fleet up.Once they are up and running, I bet they buy plexes from ISK Even if they buy the PLEX using isk, those PLEX are put up there by other players who paid RL cash for them. They may not directly purchase the PLEX but they help provide the demand. With out the demand, there'd be no isk value for PLEX and fewer PLEX would be bought by players. Not that I support the use of programs like isboxer. I'd rather see such things banned but if someone want to run multiple accounts, alt tabbing between them to control each one individually, then all the power to them.
Without demand??? There is an ever raising demand for PLEX, prices have gotten high very quickly. There is talk of measures from CCP to stop the price from getting too out of control. I think they don't need that extra plex demand from multiboxers. Now let's say plex prices did go down a little, well that's great, more normal people will be able to play the game instead of quitting due to high prices.
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Rykuss
In Praise Of Bacchus
107
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Posted - 2014.08.16 18:24:00 -
[96] - Quote
Faeana wrote:Angeal MacNova wrote:Saisin wrote:Prince Kobol wrote:
You do realise that CCP make ton of cash of these guys who multibox.
I question the validity of this statement... In fact IsBoxer allows to exponentially increase income for one single player. after an important expense to set their fleet up.Once they are up and running, I bet they buy plexes from ISK Even if they buy the PLEX using isk, those PLEX are put up there by other players who paid RL cash for them. They may not directly purchase the PLEX but they help provide the demand. With out the demand, there'd be no isk value for PLEX and fewer PLEX would be bought by players. Not that I support the use of programs like isboxer. I'd rather see such things banned but if someone want to run multiple accounts, alt tabbing between them to control each one individually, then all the power to them. Without demand??? There is an ever raising demand for PLEX, prices have gotten high very quickly. There is talk of measures from CCP to stop the price from getting too out of control. I think they don't need that extra plex demand from multiboxers. Now let's say plex prices did go down a little, well that's great, more normal people will be able to play the game instead of quitting due to high prices.
I'm a normal person and PLEX prices have absolutely no bearing on my ability to play the game. I'll give you the secret, I pay the damn subscription.
You, too, can be a Solid Gold dancer. |
Faeana
State War Academy
Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 18:29:00 -
[97] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Faeana wrote: it's not balanced and it's why the belts are full of skiffs. it's balanced because even a max yield skiff has less yield than a hulk.
Really? Well I guess that solves all problems then. Hulk has a little bit more yield than a max yield skiff. You heard it everyone, put your Skiffs away, Hulk is best. |
Angeal MacNova
LankTech
Masters of Flying Objects
163
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 18:43:00 -
[98] - Quote
Faeana wrote:
Without demand??? There is an ever raising demand for PLEX, prices have gotten high very quickly. There is talk of measures from CCP to stop the price from getting too out of control. I think they don't need that extra plex demand from multiboxers. Now let's say plex prices did go down a little, well that's great, more normal people will be able to play the game instead of quitting due to high prices.
And I bet that if we are to graph the PLEX prices over the past couple years and graph the use of multiple accounts by individual players, we would see a correlation between the two.
A little economics101 (well actually it's economics 247) for ya.
An increase in the number of players who take on multiple accounts and support those accounts via PLEX is a shift to the demand curve. This causes the demand curve to intersect the supply curve at a higher equilibrium price (isk) and quantity (that's moving quantity) . When the isk value goes up, more people are willing to buy them using RL cash to put up for sale in EVE. This results in a shift to the supply curve. Isk value goes down but quantity goes up again.
What we are seeing is a greater shift to the demand curve than the supply curve which results in a net increase to the isk value of PLEX. However, the increase to supply is still present and this means an increase to the quantity of PLEX bought using RL cash.
While a PLEX sale would help, I think it would be best for CCP to simply wait. Currently I think the summer is the reason there is currently a greater shift to demand over supply. Those that run multiple accounts and make enough isk in game to plex them all probably don't get out much while those that have the expendable income to buy isk via PLEX are more likely to use that expendable income on RL activities while the weather is nice. |
Dave Stark
6756
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 18:59:00 -
[99] - Quote
Faeana wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Faeana wrote: it's not balanced and it's why the belts are full of skiffs. it's balanced because even a max yield skiff has less yield than a hulk. Really? Well I guess that solves all problems then. Hulk has a little bit more yield than a max yield skiff. You heard it everyone, put your Skiffs away, Hulk is good, it has more yield!!
no, i said it was balanced not good.
reading is tough, huh? |
Rabe Raptor
The Conference Elite
CODE.
10
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 19:01:00 -
[100] - Quote
Report the fleet to us. We gank skiffs all the time.
Together we can make Highsec a better place! The Law of Highsec Read it, share it, learn it, quote it, live it! |
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Jinrai Tremaine
Chaotic Mercs
59
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 19:30:00 -
[101] - Quote
Angeal MacNova wrote:Wow, simply wow. I don't think I've read such an intelligent post on the EVE forums.
Thanks! This is one of the few issues I can say I have a significant amount of experience with, which obviously helps a lot when it comes to discussing it.
Faeana wrote:Wrong. If you nerf the skiff, miners still have reason to use the skiff over the "ships that bring in more over time" (the hulk you mean, it's the only one). If they adjust skiffs to take five T2 catalysts to kill, that doesn't mean everyone will switch to hulks. Because hulks are greatly easier to kill and will be die a lot more often than a tanked skiff.
I thought one of your complaints was that the belts were full of Skiffs? As you've noted yourself, with weaker tank you'd still see pretty much just as many skiffs, because you've done nothing to make the other barges more attractive.
Let me put it another way:
If you rebalance a Skiff around tanking ~5 T2 destroyers, between my character skills, implants etc and fitting abilities I'll have something that can tank ~7 T2 Catalysts or ~5 Thrashers and I'll still use it over a Mackinaw or a Hulk that can only tank ~3 T2 Catalysts.
If you give me that same Skiff, or a current Skiff, but put it up against a Mackinaw that brings in 10% more with the same tank they have today and I'll take my pre-Kronos Mackinaws out of mothballs.
I'm not saying that every Locust would do the same, or every other miner for that matter, but a notable increase in ISK/time from non-Skiff miners would make them a lot more attractive than simply nerfing ships, which would in turn spoon-feed content to would-be gankers like yourself, thereby making everyone happy.
Bluespot85 wrote:Personally i think the way that ice spawns is the issue here as It helps those players involved in botting and RMT.
Heres what happens in Talidal, Ordion and Misneden. The ice belt spawns, 30-50 bots log on within 5 minutes and mine it out, they log off for 4 hours, rinse and repeat. This goes on 24 hours a day, every day.
It would be useful if a dev would monitor these accounts to see if they log on other accounts or characters in diffrent ice systems between each ice spawn.
Unless you've actually alarmclocked throughout the day to check that it's the same people doing this, I'm going to assume you're being overly hyperbolic here. That said, if you think that they are bots, report them as such to CCP - that will bring the attention that you want onto them from Team Security. If they don't get banned, odds are good that they're actually human players with a timer rather than bots. Personally, I've lost count of the number of times people have called me an automated program just because they assume "lots of miners working in concert == botting".
Also, for what it's worth the ice anomalies are a hell of a lot less bot-friendly than the old static icebelts used to be.
MeBiatch wrote:i got an idea get rid of npc corps outside of the noob ones... that way you can war dec them
And then you'll get people just rolling their alts through a new corp every day before the previous day's wardec goes live. The only thing that would really achieve would be making it easier for veterans to prey on newbies who don't know how to do that, the odds of it affecting most locusts is pretty much nil.
Paynus Maiassus wrote:I only had problems with a multi boxer once for a while. The guy's toons were all in NPC corps. He also had a freighter on site, so I assume the Orca was max tank. He also had a Scorpion on site, I assume to break the freighter's tackle. And this was in 0.7 so the gank force would have needed to be pretty big.
The OP's concerns are valid. Everybody just flippantly tells him to "do something about it." Well only certain entities in Eve would have been capable of doing anything about the guy I ran into.
Most of the people saying that are also giving him advice for how to actually go about doing that something. Any entity in EVE could at least make that miner's life harder with a Stabber with a 100mn MWD to ram the Orca and freighter. That's not a high bar to reach.
Even if that wasn't the case, locusts themselves are "only certain entities" - it's not as if every single miner can field one, so why should every single wannabe ganker be able to kill one by themselves? |
Experiment 32423
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
7
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 19:46:00 -
[102] - Quote
Cerisia wrote:The way I see it is that they pay for all those accounts and therefore have the right (imo) to do what they like with them.
If they are eating up all your ice then why not war dec them?
That is after all, the way the game is supposed to work.....
If only war decs worked and didn't offer multiple easy ways out, right..
As for their 'right', no one should have a right to anything unless they are willing to defend it. |
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
792
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 19:46:00 -
[103] - Quote
After reading more of this thread, the solution seems to be a yield nerf for the tanky barges. I'm fine with that  .
Remove insurance. |
Jurgen Man
Iskaholics Anonymous
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 19:55:00 -
[104] - Quote
buy a few batleships, fit smartbombs onto them, warp to ice field |
stoicfaux
5281
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 20:06:00 -
[105] - Quote
If certain ships can not be flown by trial accounts, then certain ships cannot be flown by pilots in NPC corps while in high-sec?
OTOH, "one man locust corps" would still be able to avoid war-decs.
WASABI: Warp Acceleration System Ancillary Boost Injected(Gäó)
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Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
5327
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 20:08:00 -
[106] - Quote
Prince Kobol wrote:If you don't like it then do something about it.
if only bombs could be used in highsec.
Bring back DEEEEP Space! |
Space Therapist
Better Days Ahead
27
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 20:16:00 -
[107] - Quote
Perhaps... Captains Quarters is where Elvis keeps the Blue Ponies. CCP I am sending a truckload of gerbil heads in a box. You blew it.
See my bio for rates and services. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2647
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 20:23:00 -
[108] - Quote
The highsec solution to every problem:
-Whine on the forums for CCP to solve your problems for you instead of using the tools they have already provided.
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team.
Improve the forums, support this idea:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133 |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6369
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 20:27:00 -
[109] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:The highsec solution to every problem:
-Whine on the forums for CCP to solve your problems for you instead of using the tools they have already provided.
CCP provided the forums for a reason...
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
2647
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 20:31:00 -
[110] - Quote
Alavaria Fera wrote:La Nariz wrote:The highsec solution to every problem:
-Whine on the forums for CCP to solve your problems for you instead of using the tools they have already provided. CCP provided the forums for a reason...
For entertainment purposes of course!
This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team.
Improve the forums, support this idea:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133 |
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
5754
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 20:33:00 -
[111] - Quote
La Nariz wrote:The highsec solution to every problem:
-Whine on the forums for CCP to solve your problems for you instead of using the tools they have already provided.
Agreed.
Mr Epeen
There are 86,400 seconds in a day. You just saved one of them by typing 'u' instead of 'you'.-á Congratulations, dumbass! |
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
CODE.
127
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Posted - 2014.08.16 20:55:00 -
[112] - Quote
As many others already said, this ISBoxer fleets are vulnerable to disruptions in the ore/ice transport and can be disabled quite effectively with a single bumping Stabber that bumps the Orca away.
the Code ALWAYS wins |
Martin Corwin
Corwin's Corsairs
3
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 21:12:00 -
[113] - Quote
Faeana wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Faeana wrote: it's not balanced and it's why the belts are full of skiffs. it's balanced because even a max yield skiff has less yield than a hulk. Really? Well I guess that solves all problems then. Hulk has a little bit more yield than a max yield skiff. You heard it everyone, put your Skiffs away, Hulk is good, it has more yield!!
Again, I plugged the numbers into IPH. A maxed out Skiff with boosts mines ~126 units of ice per hour. Same for a Hulk: ~165 units of ice. That's a good 30% increase in yield. More than "a little bit more" IMO. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
6370
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 21:38:00 -
[114] - Quote
Huh, so skiffs are the new thing, ahead of mackinaws...
^^ Delicious goon ((tech nerf, siphon, drone assist, supercap)) tears.
Taking a wrecking ball to the futile hopes and broken dreams of skillless blobbers. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20161
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:12:00 -
[115] - Quote
Martin Corwin wrote:Faeana wrote:Dave Stark wrote:Faeana wrote: it's not balanced and it's why the belts are full of skiffs. it's balanced because even a max yield skiff has less yield than a hulk. Really? Well I guess that solves all problems then. Hulk has a little bit more yield than a max yield skiff. You heard it everyone, put your Skiffs away, Hulk is good, it has more yield!! Again, I plugged the numbers into IPH. A maxed out Skiff with boosts mines ~126 units of ice per hour. Same for a Hulk: ~165 units of ice. That's a good 30% increase in yield. More than "a little bit more" IMO. Rule #1 of GD, never let facts get in the way of a good whine.
Never hold your farts in. They travel up your spine and into the brain, where they ferment. They then migrate to your keyboard via your fingers. That's where shiptoasts come from.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Angeal MacNova
LankTech
Masters of Flying Objects
163
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:29:00 -
[116] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Rule #1 of GD, never let facts get in the way of a good whine.
Now I want to go get a bottle of port for the night. |
Logan Joriksa
Brotherhood of Heart and Steel
The Bastion
50
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:43:00 -
[117] - Quote
Code should deal with this. Orca mining should require a special mining permit that costs 100 mill.
Hint: The fitting you are trying to save has corrupted data. Cattle is not a ship. |
James Nikolas Tesla
The Immortal Soldiers
154
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 22:56:00 -
[118] - Quote
Surprisingly, I can get behind this type of ganking.
Elite PVP - The use of huge blobs, capital ships, and metagaming to defeat a target you already significantly outnumbered.
-masternerdguy |
Jinrai Tremaine
Chaotic Mercs
63
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 23:18:00 -
[119] - Quote
Faeana wrote:Without demand??? There is an ever raising demand for PLEX, prices have gotten high very quickly. There is talk of measures from CCP to stop the price from getting too out of control. I think they don't need that extra plex demand from locust swarms. Now let's say plex prices did go down a little, well that's great, more normal people will be able to play the game instead of quitting due to high prices.
There's an ever-rising demand because more and more people are making alts. Which single activity in all of EVE benefits the most from having alts? Actually, probably moving capitals around. But after THAT it's mining! So yeah, I think it's fair to say that locusts like myself have a disproportionately large affect on PLEX demand.
Further, rising PLEX prices generally encourage people to buy PLEX from CCP, as they can get more ingame ISK for their RL money.
Generally, rising PLEX prices only cause problems if the demand rises so massively it not only outstrips supply but actually depletes player stockpiles, which happened back when Inferno rebalanced Faction Warfare into a massive source of ISK for many players. CCP responded to that by selling off some of their own stockpile of confiscated PLEX to keep the market afloat. That's a very different circumstance to the comparatively slow increase in price that we've seen in the last few months. Typically if CCP want to counter PLEX prices then either they can release those stockpiles (which only happens incredibly rarely) or offer a PLEX sale, which increases supply, flooding the market and bringing down the price.
Faeana wrote:Really? Well I guess that solves all problems then. Hulk has a little bit more yield than a max yield skiff. You heard it everyone, put your Skiffs away, Hulk is good, it has more yield!!
Hulks mine better than Skiffs. This is not debatable. Based purely on yield alone, a Hulk fleet would bring in more ISK. And yet, we never see Hulk fleets, even among the optimisation-heavy Locusts. So, why is that? Well, what does the Skiff have that the Hulk doesn't? Partly it's the ore bay, but that's not really a major draw for a fleet that runs ISBoxer and has its own hauler. So, clearly it's the tank. Now, why do people feel that the Hulk's extra yield is less important than a Skiff's tank? Because Hulks are ludicrously vulnerable to Destroyers in general and Catalysts in particular. So much so that the significant yield difference doesn't make up for the vulnerability.
So, given that the Hulk is already better at mining than the Skiff, and yet miners are choosing Skiffs over Hulks because (and I think this is important) avoiding ganking has become more important to miners than actually mining, how would you get miners back into the Hulk? Making the Skiff slightly less good at surviving wouldn't do it, because tank is still more important than yield for miners. The only way to "fix" it is to change that somehow - either you increase the tank on the Hulk to the point that miners no longer feel it's a giant target doomed to rapid ganking, or you increase its yield enough that it outweighs the weak tank ("Sure, I'll lose it eventually, but the extra yield alone will pay for a replacement before that happens"). Or you somehow decrease the need for tank itself, by reducing the risk of losing a ship while mining - in other words, making ganking harder.
Experiment 32423 wrote:As for their 'right', no one should have a right to anything unless they are willing to defend it.
You mean like miners defend themselves by flying ships that are too tough for a solo ganker to gank? |
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
2098
|
Posted - 2014.08.16 23:21:00 -
[120] - Quote
Dave Stark wrote:Faeana wrote: it's not balanced and it's why the belts are full of skiffs. it's balanced because even a max yield skiff has less yield than a hulk.
Well, not really, because if 5x the tank = balance then a hulk should have something like 5x the yield.
The idea behind the boosts, was that players would take it to dangerous players to mine, well apparently the most dangerous part of eve is multiboxing belts in highsec.. 
~ Professional Forum Alt -á~ |
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