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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Carmen Electra
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
1090
   |
Posted - 2014.08.18 06:08:00 -
[61] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:Carmen Electra wrote:Sib, I think the anti-RMT crusaders are being a bit sensationalistic by throwing out exchange rates like $19 per 1B. I'll admit I'm playing devil's advocate here. I don't personally know enough about the issue to take a stance on it. I'm certainly not qualified to argue the effect RMT has on the game on a macro scale.
However, I do personally see a difference between earning affiliate dollars by incentivizing your visitors to buy products using your referral links and selling 1b ISK on eBay for $20. Hi Carm, The math is included in the Reddit link and the poster mentions that their estimate is conservative ($0.875 per PLEX referral). Do you think this is an exaggerated amount? You're saying you "see a difference", but can you tell me what the difference is exactly? Somer is paying 45m ISK and he gets $0.875 as a result. Scale that to 1b ISK and he's getting $19. What exactly is the difference between Somer's RMT, and the RMT some sap who gets banned is doing? I see no fundamental difference, except that Somer's volume may be considered a nice windfall for CCP's PLEX sales.
The difference is that one way you sell ISK for RM. The other way you use ISK to get RM. It may seem like a petty/trivial distinction but it woudn't be the first time the "how" matters just as much if not more than the end result.
EDIT:
To be more clear (or maybe just more verbose). Somer is earning money like many other for-profit websites. Ads and/or affiliate/referral links. That is legitimately earned RM. How they incentivize people to click those links is a separate matter (or at least I think that's a reasonable way to look at it)
eve is dying |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
6364
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 06:28:00 -
[62] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:The difference is that one way you sell ISK for RM. The other way you use ISK to get RM. It may seem like a petty/trivial distinction but it woudn't be the first time the "how" matters just as much if not more than the end result.
EDIT:
To be more clear (or maybe just more verbose). Somer is earning money like many other for-profit websites. Ads and/or affiliate/referral links. That is legitimately earned RM. How they incentivize people to click those links is a separate matter (or at least I think that's a reasonable way to look at it)
So I can incentivize someone to PayPal me $19 by sending them 1b ISK in game?
With my example, CCP will have lost** the exact same amount of money, and the exact same amount of ISK will have changed hands.
The difference would be the amount of money CCP would get to pocket.. about 17 PLEX worth (780m divided by 45m).
Should Jeff Bezos start incentivizing people with ISK to buy PLEX from Amazon?
Is what you're saying is that it's OK for referral partners to RMT?
**read: money from enduser that would normally go into CCP's pocket snatched by someone else
The Muppets: P+¦pc++rn (thanks Ria!)
"So.. youre saying you cant create content.... because other people are out... creating content?" --United Arab Emirates |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
2102
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 06:32:00 -
[63] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:
The difference is that one way you sell ISK for RM. The other way you use ISK to get RM. It may seem like a petty/trivial distinction but it woudn't be the first time the "how" matters just as much if not more than the end result.
EDIT:
To be more clear (or maybe just more verbose). Somer is earning money like many other for-profit websites. Ads and/or affiliate/referral links. That is legitimately earned RM. How they incentivize people to click those links is a separate matter (or at least I think that's a reasonable way to look at it)
You don't think incentivizing real money referral links with isk is RMT? |
Sibyyl
Gallente Federation
6364
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 06:39:00 -
[64] - Quote
I think what Carm is saying is:
When somebody pays ISK and gets RL money in return, this is RL money being taken away from CCP (since it would otherwise be used to purchase PLEX
When Somer pays ISK and gets RL money in return, this RL money is a sanctioned way to earn a percentage of a PLEX sale. In effect, the alleged RMTer (Somer, in this case) has "rendered unto Caesar" in the form of a referral contract
The small (45m or $0.875.. whatever you want to call it) RMT loss is insignificant to CCP, considering that they make a full PLEX sale in return.
That's my understanding anyway..
The Muppets: P+¦pc++rn (thanks Ria!)
"So.. youre saying you cant create content.... because other people are out... creating content?" --United Arab Emirates |
Carmen Electra
SniggWaffe
WAFFLES.
1091
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:00:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sibyyl wrote:So I can incentivize someone to PayPal me $19 by sending them 1b ISK in game?
That would be against the EULA. Setting up affiliate links and then incentivizing someone to click on that link by sending them ISK may be a different story. Apparently, CCP seems to think it's ok. (Of course, it will be interesting to see where things stand after the dust settles.)
Sibyyl wrote:I think what Carm is saying is:
When somebody pays ISK and gets RL money in return, this is RL money being taken away from CCP (since it would otherwise be used to purchase PLEX
When Somer pays ISK and gets RL money in return, this RL money is a sanctioned way to earn a percentage of a PLEX sale. In effect, the alleged RMTer (Somer, in this case) has "rendered unto Caesar" in the form of a referral contract
That's certainly more than I meant to imply, but your reasoning sounds good to me.
I think people on these forums see people using ISK in an indirect way to earn RM and declare it RMT. I've always been of the mindset that how you get from point A to point B is also important. Many of us are engaged in the process of making real money IRL. I'm sure that if I earned my RL income from an EVE site there'd be a million and one ways to make accusations of RMT since ISK is such an integral part of EVE. Again, a lot of this is just playing devils advocate. Sorry if I'm giving anyone a headache.
eve is dying |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
11094
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:03:00 -
[66] - Quote
Carmen Electra wrote:Apparently, CCP seems to think it's ok.
Apparently CCP needs their heads examined because this **** is giving them a poor reputation.
No, this isn't it at all. Make it more... psssshhhh. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20182
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:11:00 -
[67] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Carmen Electra wrote:Apparently, CCP seems to think it's ok. Apparently CCP needs their heads examined because this **** is giving them a poor reputation. Giving? EA and Blizzard have a better reputation at this point in time.
Never hold your farts in. They travel up your spine and into the brain, where they ferment. They then migrate to your keyboard via your fingers. That's where shiptoasts come from.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Lair Osen
99
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:18:00 -
[68] - Quote
Ok, so Somer wants to provide a service to it's loyal customers, so it implements a PLEX buying service.
Now for this service to be good for the customers/useful it would have to offer more ISK to the person than they can get from selling it.
Currently the Jita PLEX price is at 797 million and has been steadily rising. There are many PLEX sell orders in Jita atm over 830m.
Given this it makes sense for a very small 4% price increase to ensure that Somer is not cheating their customers out of the ISK they could have gotten by selling a week or so later.
Also, with RMT you give away ISK and so your ISK goes down.
Somer are trading ISK for PLEX. the value of PLEX is rising and will soon be at the 830m mark, at which point Somer can sell it and they won't have lost any ISK at all. This seems more like futures gambling than RMT to me. |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
2102
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:20:00 -
[69] - Quote
I'm not sure I understand how you can argue that this isn't RMT.
It's basically: I'll give you isk if you use this link that gives me money. |
Eadwig ofHelmsby
Asteroid Collection and Excavation
0
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:25:00 -
[70] - Quote
Somer is not just another legal out of game PLEX trader. He gives a **** about ingame mechanics. He skips the New Eden market. Because of that CCP should kick his ***.
Quote:
- No moving PLEX in shuttles and potentially getting ganked
- No need to waste a character slot on a Jita alt
- No market or trade skills needed to reduce taxes and fees
- No waiting for your PLEX to sell-- get ISK fast so you can play Eve
(http://cogdev.net/blink/docs/11/38)
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Sabriz Adoudel
Mission BLITZ
3416
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:26:00 -
[71] - Quote
Lair Osen wrote:Ok, so Somer wants to provide a service to it's loyal customers, so it implements a PLEX buying service.
Now for this service to be good for the customers/useful it would have to offer more ISK to the person than they can get from selling it.
Currently the Jita PLEX price is at 797 million and has been steadily rising. There are many PLEX sell orders in Jita atm over 830m.
Given this it makes sense for a very small 4% price increase to ensure that Somer is not cheating their customers out of the ISK they could have gotten by selling a week or so later.
Also, with RMT you give away ISK and so your ISK goes down.
Somer are trading ISK for PLEX. the value of PLEX is rising and will soon be at the 830m mark, at which point Somer can sell it and they won't have lost any ISK at all. This seems more like futures gambling than RMT to me.
Futures gambling would be posting market orders saying 'Buying PLEX from everyone for 830m/unit'. Ill advised (IMO) but perfectly legal. Or alternately a forum post saying 'Buying PLEX via private contact, 830m/unit, contract them to me, will decline the contracts when I run out of ISK'.
It's very different when you say 'Buying PLEX for 830m, but only if you spend RL money with me'.
If I put up an Ebay auction saying 'Buy this piece of toast for 200 USD, and if you have an EVE Online account, I'll buy a piece of Tritanium from you for 10 billion ISK', CCP would *rightly* permaban me, and seize the 10b from the buyer who would get a temporary ban.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=346564 - a proposal to overhaul the Logistics skill
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=238931 - an idea for a new form of hybrid PVE/PVP content.
www.minerbumping.com - ganking miners and causing chaos |
Prince Kobol
2052
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:28:00 -
[72] - Quote
I'm at the point with Eve that I honestly couldn't give a ****.
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Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
3392
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:36:00 -
[73] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Carmen Electra wrote:Apparently, CCP seems to think it's ok. Apparently CCP needs their heads examined because this **** is giving them a poor reputation. Giving? EA and Blizzard have a better reputation at this point in time.
Guess CCP is so desperate for cash, given the falling subs, they are willing to make deals with the devil, if it looks like it will increase the cash into CCP, regardless of the optics. If CCP thinks this will somehow increase plex sales, then I expect them to keep their mouths shut about this, for as long as they can, before the furor gets too great.
"RMT is bad, unless you are actually increasing CCP revenues at the same time." |
Innominate
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
579
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:46:00 -
[74] - Quote
If CCP is going to legitimize this style of RMT, why not cut out the middleman?
CCP could start their own plex referral program, and even build the isk kickback right into it. Give interested parties a referral link where they can set an isk bonus amount to be drawn from their character that will be paid out to buyers. CCP gets most of the money(more, since they cut out a middleman), the affiliate gets their kickback, and the buyer gets their bonus isk without fear of scams.
Or just keep RMT illegal and stop rewarding those trying to find loopholes. |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
12626
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:47:00 -
[75] - Quote
No worries, even if CCP decides this is wrong and tells Somer to stop, I'm sure they'll give them some unique ships as a consolidation for lost revenue. I mean CCP can't let Somer go empty handed out of this, that would just be wrong.
/c
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20183
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:50:00 -
[76] - Quote
Chribba wrote:No worries, even if CCP decides this is wrong and tells Somer to stop, I'm sure they'll give them some unique ships as a consolidation for lost revenue. I mean CCP can't let Somer go empty handed out of this, that would just be wrong.
/c Something is rotten in with the state of Denmark. Eve.
Even Chribba is jaded.....
Never hold your farts in. They travel up your spine and into the brain, where they ferment. They then migrate to your keyboard via your fingers. That's where shiptoasts come from.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
PotatoOverdose
Handsome Millionaire Playboys
Mordus Angels
2054
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 07:58:00 -
[77] - Quote
So, they're essentially doing the same thing they did last time. To clarify, here is the specific racket this time around:
1) Buy plex through somer affiliate, off which somer earns $$.
2) "give" plex in-game back to somer for additional isk over market value. You gain additional isk.
In greater detail:
A) Player starts with $$.
B) Player buys plex via somer affiliate with $$.
C) Player now has plex.
D) Player gives plex to somer in exchange for extra isk.
E) Player now has extra isk over what he would have gotten via plex sale to market. Somer now has $$.
So... somer earns $$, customers get extra isk. That is, by definition, RMT. Furthermore, this is also direct favoritism as CCP is only allowing somer blink to do this.....again.
CCP, if your going to allow this practice, you should allow it for everyone. I, for one, look forward to purchasing from the Goon/PL/NPC_Sh*tlord RMT shoppe.
Anything less is BLATANT favoritism. |
Billy McCandless
The McCandless Clan
430
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:11:00 -
[78] - Quote
wat is summer blinck?
i quit blincking ages agoe becos i wuz doin it wile drivign
everi blinck increases yore risc of crashin
"Thread locked for being deemed a total loss." - ISD Ezwal |
Lair Osen
100
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Posted - 2014.08.18 08:18:00 -
[79] - Quote
Honestly, the problem here is NOT the apparent RMT at all, but the fact that Somer provide a service only to people that have bought PLEX through them. It would not matter if the service was terrible and caused people lose ISK, there would still be complaints.
Any service in this game has an inherent cost, so any service that Blink provides to it's customers can be calculated and converted into RMT figures.
Thus the only way to solve this issue is for CCP to either stop affiliate referrers from providing any services to anyone,
or just simply stop them from discriminating their service provision based on whether the person has used their referral.
The Customer Loyalty Program is the true issue here, the RMT complaints are an irrelevant sidetrack. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4207
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:19:00 -
[80] - Quote
Posting in another SOMER hate thread that dismisses all the authorised PLEX dealers as RMT'ers and just picks on the one they lost too much of their isk playing.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
20184
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:21:00 -
[81] - Quote
Billy McCandless wrote:wat is summer blinck?
i quit blincking ages agoe becos i wuz doin it wile drivign
everi blinck increases yore risc of crashin This is how I imagine Billy's driving.
Never hold your farts in. They travel up your spine and into the brain, where they ferment. They then migrate to your keyboard via your fingers. That's where shiptoasts come from.
Nil mortifi sine lucre. |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
2102
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:22:00 -
[82] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Posting in another SOMER hate thread that dismisses all the authorised PLEX dealers as RMT'ers and just picks on the one they lost too much of their isk playing.
You did a great job of reading absolutely none of the thread and then making a broad, incorrect generalization about it. |
Memrox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
117
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Posted - 2014.08.18 08:22:00 -
[83] - Quote
Good ole' Markee Dragon and Somer at it again! CCP's favorite RMT couple! |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4207
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Posted - 2014.08.18 08:24:00 -
[84] - Quote
Derrick Miles wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Posting in another SOMER hate thread that dismisses all the authorised PLEX dealers as RMT'ers and just picks on the one they lost too much of their isk playing. You did a great job of reading absolutely none of the thread and then making a broad, incorrect generalization about it.
Except that I did read it, and made a correct assessment of the general tone of the thread.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
4241
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:37:00 -
[85] - Quote
Chribba wrote:No worries, even if CCP decides this is wrong and tells Somer to stop, I'm sure they'll give them some unique ships as a consolidation for lost revenue. I mean CCP can't let Somer go empty handed out of this, that would just be wrong.
/c
My face after reading quoted text. |
Koniforous
Tauren Transit
142
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:39:00 -
[86] - Quote
How about this guys:
EULA
Section "Your Account"
Subsection "A. Establishing a New Account"
Paragraph 4:
"Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVE is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVE. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited."
That just about sums it up for me.
TAUTX: Private Bank and Lending
TAUTX: Collateral Liquidation / Discount Items |
Derrick Miles
EVENumbers
2103
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:43:00 -
[87] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:Derrick Miles wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Posting in another SOMER hate thread that dismisses all the authorised PLEX dealers as RMT'ers and just picks on the one they lost too much of their isk playing. You did a great job of reading absolutely none of the thread and then making a broad, incorrect generalization about it. Except that I did read it, and made a correct assessment of the general tone of the thread.
"dismisses all the authorized PLEX dealers as RMT'ers"
That's what you got from reading this thread? |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4208
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:49:00 -
[88] - Quote
Derrick Miles wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Derrick Miles wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:Posting in another SOMER hate thread that dismisses all the authorised PLEX dealers as RMT'ers and just picks on the one they lost too much of their isk playing. You did a great job of reading absolutely none of the thread and then making a broad, incorrect generalization about it. Except that I did read it, and made a correct assessment of the general tone of the thread. "dismisses all the authorized PLEX dealers as RMT'ers" That's what you got from reading this thread?
No, what I got from this thread is that Somer Blink is bad, but we can forget about all the other authorised plex dealers because we didn't lose our money gambling on their websites and aren't butthurt about them.
Lrn2read, I shouldn't have to explain what I said, unless you're still learning basic English, in which case I apologise.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
Yokai Mitsuhide
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
5722
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:53:00 -
[89] - Quote
Remiel Pollard wrote:
No, what I got from this thread is that Somer Blink is bad
So proud of you, we knew you'd get there. |
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
4208
|
Posted - 2014.08.18 08:56:00 -
[90] - Quote
Yokai Mitsuhide wrote:Remiel Pollard wrote:
No, what I got from this thread is that Somer Blink is bad
So proud of you, we knew you'd get there.
Patronising and quote mining.... are you a creationist by any chance?
If you're gonna have a problem with SOMER selling plex, then have one with Amazon too. And everyone else that sells plex and isn't CCP but is AUTHORISED by CCP at their discretion.
GÇ£Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'.
Jam those ones first, and kill them last.GÇ¥
- Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104 |
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