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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 25 post(s) |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
11144
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Posted - 2014.08.21 16:13:00 -
[31] - Quote
One hint that may help with the Guristas Burner: this NPC is the closest approximation to a MWDing player ship that we've ever made.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
770
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 16:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
which fotm cheese setup is it copying exactly, I can't tell |
McBorsk
Multispace Technologies Inc
Yulai Federation
40
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 16:31:00 -
[33] - Quote
That guristas burner. So many wrecks on grid.  |
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
81
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 16:36:00 -
[34] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Thanks for the feedback.
The fact that we only have 5 burner missions is a big reason why we aren't attaching them to their own agents in this release. We might consider it later once there is a larger pool to choose from..
my suggestion is that you add a separated line of harder frigate missions for expert players (lots of elite frigate, incursions-like ai etc) and slip the burner ones in -that- line of agents.
this way you can break the concept "bigger ships equal higher level" that a lot of missioners have and which make them react badly to the rest of eve (ok, i.
once the full frigate line is done you can move to cruiser, bc and bs.
Having NPCs that require warp scrambling to defeat is indeed something we'd like to do, but we don't have the support for it in our current tools. In the future once we have that feature implemented, you can expect that the Burners will be among the first NPCs to get it.[/quote]
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Lady Grantham
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.08.21 16:38:00 -
[35] - Quote
This blood raiders burner is the bane of my existence. |
Berluth Luthian
Onslaught Inc
RISE of LEGION
199
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Posted - 2014.08.21 16:39:00 -
[36] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:CCP Fozzie wrote:Billius Zabub wrote:These are good!
I got the Worm one and I'm having a hard time coming up with a ship/fit to take it down.
I've made like 7 attempts in various ships.
Don't tell me, I can figure this out.
Fun.
I can confirm that I've found a way to beat that one using a T2 ship and all T2/meta modules, with no expensive implants. It's pretty much always a tricky fight for me though. the worm does what kin and thermal damage? so that would mean a galente or caldari ship maybe the vengeance? I would think stay away from turrets as they would have trouble tracking a mwd ship at long sram range... so that leaves either the ishkur or the hawk... though i have had trouble fitting hawks in the past so i might just end up doing it in a vengeance...
The worm burner gets boosted disruptor range not scram range right? I'm curious if their signal bloom increases when they get MWD speeds? In which case a TP and barrage could be nice? |
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
770
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 17:01:00 -
[37] - Quote
do any of them even have real scrams? no other rats in the game have real scrams afaik. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
11145
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Posted - 2014.08.21 17:13:00 -
[38] - Quote
Lady Grantham wrote:This blood raiders burner is the bane of my existence.
The Blood Raider one is probably the hardest right now. I think we're going to tone its active tank down a bit before release.
TrouserDeagle wrote:do any of them even have real scrams? no other rats in the game have real scrams afaik.
The Burners that fight at closer range (Angel, Blood, Serpentis, Sansha) do indeed use real scams.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Lady Grantham
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
0
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Posted - 2014.08.21 17:15:00 -
[39] - Quote
TrouserDeagle wrote:do any of them even have real scrams? no other rats in the game have real scrams afaik.
The Blood Raider one neuts, scrams and webs afaik. |
Suitonia
Path of Radiance
HYDRA RELOADED
311
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Posted - 2014.08.21 17:20:00 -
[40] - Quote
Hi Fozzie, a few bits of feedback from a few runs I have done. My character has absolute perfect skills (Mastery 5) etc. No implant sets were used when attempting these.
First Mission, VS Dramiel Burner. Attempted Solo without links.
1) This was actually a lot more challenging than I expected, I first opted to try a Double web Vengeance with Rockets+nos and Rigor+t2 rate of fire rig, and tanky lows. I opted for a Vengeance because I thought that the high Explosive, Kinetic and EM resistances would be sufficient. I was able to permatank the NPC, however I was unable to break his tank at all, despite Rigor+dual web I was only applying about 40% of my Rocket DPS. I then let the NPC kill me, and reshipped.
2) I opted to switch for a Daredevil, Neutrons, Afterburner, web, injector + dual rep, damage control, Mag stab + Burst/Ancillary/Explosive armor rigs. This went much easier (although I had just entered structure at the end of the engagement).
Second Mission VS Succubus Burner. First Attempt without links, Second attempt was with Claymore boosted Interdiction Maneuvers only (to simulate a faction web). same Daredevil from above
1) I warped into the mission, then the burner kited me at 15km with both scram+web (as a side note: the 'scram' only has 1x strength disruption and on the UI it displays as a warp disruptor, even though it disables use of MWD, would it be possible to make this more clear in the UI prehaps? It does say it warp scrambles in the mission journal however). I got kited and died.
2) Round 2, I got an alt to give me the Claymore Interdiction Maneuvers link (only that link) to simulate a faction web on the Daredevil, this time it was winnable with heated AB+Web I was able to get on top of it, and I was able to beat the Succubus with 60% hull remaining.
Third Mission VS Guristas Worm (first 3 attempts solo without links, 4th attempt dual boxed)
1) Tried to kill it using Daredevil, but it killed me in just 5 volleys, the Worm is fast (3.7kms) and has a 40km~ Disruptor, I got on top of it and got it into a third of shield left before I died. It does a lot of volley damage. I think I could have won this fight if I had armor links.
2) Swapped to an Ishkur, was unable to get on it at all, far too slow. Died after a few minutes, on a side note, The behavior with drones is very weird, mid-way through the fight, the NPC started swapping to my drones, however this made him orbit the drones at 40km instead of me, and actually almost allowed me to get on top of him because he was attempting to range kite my drones and not me, I'm not sure if this would be at-all possible to change, but obviously the more effective and option players use would be to kite me while shooting my drones. He also took the disruptor off me and onto the drones.
3) Swapped to a Crusader, was able to get on it almost immediatly, but I died far too fast and it had a really decent tank.
4) I then decided to dual box this mission. Kitsune+Daredevil. The Guristas NPC was permajammed and was no problem, the worm is really resilent though, I think this burner is by far the hardest burner because it has a really beefy tank on top of being faster than all assault ships, while doing lots of effective DPS at range.
Fourth mission, VS Serpentis Daredevil (Attempted solo, no links)
1) Tried a Pulse fitted retribution without a prop module, and injector+dual rep, the NPC was under my tracking with Scorch and Focused Medium Pulse, on a side note, the NPC was actually killing its own tracking and got a lot of grazes/misses because of his tight orbit at range with railguns. Died to it after 2 minutes or so. was unable to break tank due to being unable to apply my DPS.
2) Tried my own Railgun DD, 150mm IIs, with injector + dual web, dual rep, dc, magstab. I got wrecked, although it was pretty close (it was almost in structure, I think I could have won this with armor links)
Contributer to Eve is Easy:-á
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Check out my PvP Rifter guide for new players;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReUNRTGcXo |
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Skyler Hawk
The Scope
Gallente Federation
5
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Posted - 2014.08.21 17:38:00 -
[41] - Quote
Is the blood raider one supposed to tank indefinitely even if you're outside its nos range? I was kiting it at ~10 km in a fairly ganky succubus to stay outside its neut/damage range and couldn't put a dent in its tank. I did eventually take it down by kiting at about the same range with the extremely well balanced daredevil fit below, but even then with >300 dps cold it took several reloads before it went down.
[Daredevil, max deeps]
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Overdrive Injector System II
1MN Afterburner II
[empty med slot]
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
[empty high slot]
150mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
Small Hybrid Collision Accelerator II
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
(needed 5% small hybrid and turret rof implants to actually break the thing's tank) |
Destoya
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
309
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 17:54:00 -
[42] - Quote
[Worm, worm]
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive I
Enfeebling Phase Inversion ECM I
Enfeebling Phase Inversion ECM I
Enfeebling Phase Inversion ECM I
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I
[empty rig slot]
'Augmented' Hobgoblin x2
Warrior II x2
Acolyte II x1
Tested on all 5 burners and it works like a charm except for the guristas one, since it 2-3 shots you when you get out of lock range. The only other one that this fit has difficulty with is the sansha one since it can go out of your lock range then dive back in very quickly, need to overheat jammers when that happens or you die fairly quickly.
Guristas mission will need a bit more thought; perhaps even just a tanked worm will take care of it. |
Saraki Ishikela
Deep Space Adventure Time
75
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Posted - 2014.08.21 18:04:00 -
[43] - Quote
Are these ships able to be neuted out to break the active tank?
One newbies quest to ExploreEVE:
Youtube:www.youtube.com/exploreeve- Blogspot:http://exploreeve.blogspot.com
Twitter:www.twitter.com/exploreeve - Facebook:www.facebook.com/exploreeve |
Suitonia
Path of Radiance
HYDRA RELOADED
312
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Posted - 2014.08.21 18:32:00 -
[44] - Quote
I think the ships are immune to Tracking Disruption, but not ECM for some reason (which is far more effective). Just tried to fight the Daredevil Burner with a Sentinel with 2x TDs with -76% optimal each, and it still was hitting me at 12km.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:-á
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Check out my PvP Rifter guide for new players;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReUNRTGcXo |
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
6
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:06:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ummm, are these only in the official 'test systems'?....because i just loaded SiSi up since i saw the updated OP....first mission i get is "Attack of the Drones"....the regular old lvl 4 mission... |
Shirley Serious
Gutter Press
91
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:11:00 -
[46] - Quote
Lil' Brudder Too wrote:Ummm, are these only in the official 'test systems'?....because i just loaded SiSi up since i saw the updated OP....first mission i get is "Attack of the Drones"....the regular old lvl 4 mission...
decline, then try that agent again. there was something way back, about how agents already have a mission they intend to offer you, even before you ask them, so if it's your normal agent, then they'll have a normal mission in their queue. Decline it and ask again, and you should get a burner mission.
same thing happened when I tried it. |
roigon
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
95
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 19:21:00 -
[47] - Quote
My first try with the burner missions was the sansha rat, and I only had limited time so could only give it 3 attempts. Also since I've only experienced the sansha rat this might colour my observation.
As a puzzle it is nice. But if this in any way should serve as a method of making PvE more like PvP, it imho fails.
As a general feeling at the moment it is necessary to come up with a fairly specific fit to overcome the rat. This fit in turn will have zero value in pvp because it is specifically tailored to do a certain amount of dps to overcome to very high repair amount and have a likely unnaturally heavy tank for a frigate to survive the equally upped DPS of the rat.
Now perhaps this is simply a case of expectations being different. But I was expecting these missions to teach in a PvE way about ships, their strengths and weaknesses, their counters and limitations.
Cynically put, this sansha rat will only instil an undeserved fear of this frigate, as well as teach bad habits like dmg specific tanking and no tackle mods. In an even more cynical sense it is ultimately no different from a normal mission, except that it's just one rat. After the new wears off people will be lugging around a couple of highly specific frigates to deal with these, or none at all and skip them.
My expectations where that one had to figure out the correct counter to the fit, vaguely mirrored to normal PvP fitting style to overcome the challenge. But that it would essentially teach pvp basics and the rock/paper/scissors game of frig pvp.
Having the rats be half-way e-war immune isn't helping either, but as I understand it that's simply a limitation of the system at this time.
Don't get me wrong, I am enjoying the puzzle of these missions. But I was perhaps hoping they would be less of a puzzle and more of a PvP simulation in PvE land. |
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
223
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:31:00 -
[48] - Quote
This missions are super waste of time.
We killed 15 burners, guess what, EMPTY WRECKS
All of the burners are WAY overpowered, can't be soloed, they can't be killed even with 2 players in group, you need at least 3 players.
Rewards are NONE, nothing drops.
I'll be skiping those missions, even level 1 missions are better to do and have better rewards.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
11147
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:35:00 -
[49] - Quote
To be clear, these missions are definitely not intended to teach players how to PVP (although I can completely understand why people might hope that they would be).
Even attempting that would require a completely new AI. Optional missions that teach PVP skills are a good long-term goal, but these are designed to be challenging changes of pace from the traditional level 4 mission experience.
They do expose players to thinking about fittings and tactics in ways that other missions don't encourage, and hopefully by either solving these puzzles themselves or by reading about how others have solved them they will improve their understandings of EVE mechanics and how module fittings can be used creatively to reach specific goals.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Agrippa Arkaral
Vertical Rebirth
10
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:36:00 -
[50] - Quote
The Guristas Burner ingores my scram on him once he switches to my drones. |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
11148
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:38:00 -
[51] - Quote
Spc One wrote:This missions are super waste of time. We killed 15 burners, guess what, EMPTY WRECKSAll of the burners are WAY overpowered, can't be soloed, they can't be killed even with 2 players in group, you need at least 3 players. Rewards are NONE, nothing drops. I'll be skiping those missions, even level 1 missions are better to do and have better rewards.
I've beaten all of them solo without expensive faction modules, expensive implants or gang links. They're tough but they're definitely not impossible.
Also remember that the mission rewards are dynamically calculated so they will take a few days to correct themselves once the missions hit TQ.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
11148
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Agrippa Arkaral wrote:The Guristas Burner ingores my scram on him once he switches to my drones.
I'll see if I can reproduce that, thanks for the report.
Game Designer | Team Five-0
https://twitter.com/CCP_Fozzie
http://www.twitch.tv/ccp_fozzie/ |
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Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
716
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:41:00 -
[53] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:The Burners that fight at closer range (Angel, Blood, Serpentis, Sansha) do indeed use real scams.
npc goons, neat |
Strata Maslav
Hax.
Triumvirate.
95
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Posted - 2014.08.21 19:45:00 -
[54] - Quote
Spc One wrote:This missions are super waste of time. We killed 15 burners, guess what, EMPTY WRECKSAll of the burners are WAY overpowered, can't be soloed, they can't be killed even with 2 players in group, you need at least 3 players. Rewards are NONE, nothing drops. I'll be skiping those missions, even level 1 missions are better to do and have better rewards.
Read the Dev Blog and this thread. These NPC reflect the power of a pirate implant set wearing, faction/deadspace fit pirate frigate, using command links.
The rewards are as previously mentioned broken by the fact that the mission reward system is dynamic and so doesn't have enough data seeded to represent the difficulty of the missions. When it comes to drops I don't imagine CCP will want to flood the 'rare' module market high drop %. The rewards will probably be reasonable a week or two after patch day.
I could be wrong but I expect there may be pilots without the ability to complete these missions even when they are able to breeze through lvl 4s semi-afk.
You will need to use a combination of specific fittings and ships to beat complete these missions.
All this being said I am sure these NPCs require some tweaks when it come to balance. |
Shirley Serious
Gutter Press
91
|
Posted - 2014.08.21 20:02:00 -
[55] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I've beaten all of them solo without expensive faction modules, expensive implants or gang links. They're tough but they're definitely not impossible.
to be fair, since you're one of the designers, you already (probably) know at least one of the ways to beat them.
Blood raider one seems rather tough. Threw a handful of ships at one of them to see what sorts of things worked against the npc. NPC seemed immune to tracking disruption, for example. Seems to have 300dps tank or thereabouts. After exploding a half dozen or so ships, I looked at this thread, saw how someone else defeated it,
thus far, it looks like, defeat blood raider npc by:
1. having a webby kitey ship that does >300 dps or so.
If there are other ways, then I didn't find any during the handful of times I tried. vOv |
roigon
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
95
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Posted - 2014.08.21 20:05:00 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Fozzie wrote:To be clear, these missions are definitely not intended to teach players how to PVP (although I can completely understand why people might hope that they would be).
Even attempting that would require a completely new AI. Optional missions that teach PVP skills are a good long-term goal, but these are designed to be challenging changes of pace from the traditional level 4 mission experience.
They do expose players to thinking about fittings and tactics in ways that other missions don't encourage, and hopefully by either solving these puzzles themselves or by reading about how others have solved them they will improve their understandings of EVE mechanics and how module fittings can be used creatively to reach specific goals.
Roger. Expectations adjusted.
I'll go enjoy the puzzles some more then :)
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Suitonia
Path of Radiance
HYDRA RELOADED
312
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Posted - 2014.08.21 20:06:00 -
[57] - Quote
Spc One wrote:This missions are super waste of time. We killed 15 burners, guess what, EMPTY WRECKSAll of the burners are WAY overpowered, can't be soloed, they can't be killed even with 2 players in group, you need at least 3 players. Rewards are NONE, nothing drops. I'll be skiping those missions, even level 1 missions are better to do and have better rewards.
I've spent around 3 hours playing against the burners, and I have beaten the Serpentis, Angel and Sansha burner solo. No implants.
I've beaten all the burners by dual boxing Kitsune+my DPS ship of choice. (2 man). and from my results I know I can beat all the burners if I had warfare links active.
I'm pretty sure the Blood NPC + Worm NPC are soloable if I spend some more time playing around with fits.
Contributer to Eve is Easy:-á
https://www.youtube.com/user/eveiseasy/videos
Check out my PvP Rifter guide for new players;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReUNRTGcXo |
Strata Maslav
Hax.
Triumvirate.
95
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Posted - 2014.08.21 20:06:00 -
[58] - Quote
*Note I am still at work and have been unable to test the feature*
Fozzie will you have some sort of warning display before accepting a Burner mission?
When I run mission I have the bad habit of spamming 'complete mission' and 'accept mission' before I have even read where/what I am supposed to be doing. I worry that people may accidentally accepting a Burner mission and not have the resources to complete it.
I feel the introduction of the 'niche' missions may catch certain players (especially newer pilots) off guard leading them to losing ships and losing standings to abandoned missions. |
Lil' Brudder Too
Pistols for Pandas
6
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Posted - 2014.08.21 20:18:00 -
[59] - Quote
I've also noted a few ppl saying how after being unable to break the NPC tank, they tried to log-off to get away to try again...yet were not able to get away by logging off. Does this mean these NPC's will ignore the E-Warp built in to pve for the many times that players get those pesky 'socket-disconnects' that you claim you have no control over fixing...
(sorta like today, after seeing the server go down, what, 5 times now?, i'm not touching anything Eve for the rest of the day at best) |
Dangeresque Too
Pistols for Pandas
4
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Posted - 2014.08.21 20:24:00 -
[60] - Quote
If CCP's goal with this is to make PVE more challenging while expanding the ship types needed for missions and making people look at lvl 4's differently I have a better idea, which might even encourage utilizing the help of other players which is also one of the goals CCP has, you know, get people out of the solo aspects of the game.
How about you just dial back the ship allowances for normal level 4 missions, so that only frigates or cruisers or maybe even remove T2 ships from being able to enter. I routinely take random underpowered ships into lvl 4 missions (either by myself or to help a friend) just to add the extra interesting-ness. Solo'ing Gur Extravaganza lvl 4 with a T2 fit Merlin can make it incredibly more interesting. It might even go so far as encouraging non-incursion use of logi ships?
Due to the server's current instability I'm not going to touch these burner missions with a ten-foot pole until tomorrow (almost started one, but before I could get the ship built/fit here comes our friend socket disconnect again). Also add to that the extreme overpowered-ness these frigs seem to have. Yeah I understand they are supposed to be over-powered, but one of the things I would really like to see from NPCs (and have been wanting for a while), is that they would have actual fit ships, within the fitting requirements of the ships they are using. Yes, you can increase the difficulty of the NPC by giving it more and more expensive fits in terms of faction/deadspace as compared to lesser rats only using meta/T2 modules. But having frigate sized rats that can perma-tank 300+ dps while also webbing, scramming, using a prop mod, ewar (TD/jams/nuets), and still being able to output massive dps at range. Just seems like they are way exceeding the fitting restrictions that a player would be able to do with an endless bank account even.
Also one question I had, the Blood rat, he nuets, are those nuets overpowered/oversized for what would be possible to fit on a frig (eh-hem *cough* sansha incursion frigs) or are they infact small sized nuets? |
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