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Who Has PlayboyÆs Blueprints?

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Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.08 19:13:00 - [61] Quote: Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 18:49:01 Quote: Hmm..then I'd say press the GMs for details of how it happened since Sw00sh insists there's no bug involved. If there's no bug involved and the auditing tools were working properly, you'd have that information and be able to decipher what happened yourself. Or if you want to wait, there's a CSM meeting tonight. If nobody asks, I will. Or any question you'd want asked instead. The fact that anybody can get any BP out of a secure hangar even if they only have 'view' access is a problem. It may not ba a bug in the coding, but is in an oversite. 'View' access was intended to allow players to use BPs without running off with them. As the code works now, they can. In the spirit of the game and how it is intended to work, this is very very wrong. The program is doing what it is programmed to do, it just likely wasn't intended to work that way. Yes please, bring this up in the chat tonight. Now that this is in the open, you can bet it is going to occur more often and more people will be burned. Talk about a mass exodus -- our corp is already falling apart and more will follow. Heff, send me a message ingame or start a convo (may be afk as I'm at work). I'm not entirely sure what you want asked, but I'll give it a go if you explain a bit better. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Datsevlu	Posted - 2003.10.08 19:17:00 - [62] They can't tell you the information of who has the BP's but ask them they might be able to tell you who in your corp did the trade. At least I believe I could be wrong. Ask them because then you can find out who it was and how they were able to do this. -- Datsevlu Blow'em up we'll build more. Techell's ingame site
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.08 19:36:00 - [63] Well, if they find this as a bug, IMHO it should be catagorized as an Exploit and that person you say you know whom has the BPs should thus get banned for it and Heff should get his Bp's reimburst to him. If is is found as a bug/exploit and nothing is done to refund Heff for his BPs, then the GMs really should re-think thier way of dealing with people or think about going to pump gas at a local gas station.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:00:00 - [64] Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 20:14:15 Thank you again everyone for your support. This has been a horrible ordeal to contend with. As of now, even if I were to get all of the blueprints back, remaining in the game is still a question mark for me. The level of support I've received from CCP has taken away any faith I've ever had that this game can cater to its customers. They would need to absolutely and completely impress me with service for me to stay and I doubt they are capable of it quite frankly. Regardless, I hope we get the BPs back since there are other members of my corporation who may remain in Eve after I go. This was my first MMORPG and I doubt I will return to the genre. Heff
Livak	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:00:00 - [65] Edited by: Livak on 08/10/2003 20:06:55 Ok CCP, until I see a post from you guys stating that the original BP's were stored and installed from hanger 1 AND stolen from hanger 1, you haven't addressed this issue yet. While it is possible, that Heff is lying, or misinformed, I think he would know who has access to his secure hanger besides him and Dora, and can easilly check the security log to see if someone else had been granted access. As far as it being stolen. It's obvious to everyone that it was stolen. The question on everyone's mind is: Was it stolen from the secure hanger (you can check the log and see what hanger it was always stored in, and which hanger it was inserted into the research or factory slot from) or from some "other" hanger. If it was stolen from the secure hanger then end of story, it was a legitimate theft. If not then you have a serious bug. I think you owe the rest of us a clarification on this. Until I hear otherwise, I'm taking away everyone's factory access and moving all original bps to personal hangers.
Gigi Ana	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:09:00 - [66] Quote: As of now, even if I were to get all of the blueprints back, I doubt I can remain in the game. The level of support I've received from CCP has taken away any faith I've ever had that this game can cater to its customers. Regardless, I hope we get the BPs back since there are other members of my corporation who may remain in Eve after I go. This was my first MMORPG and I doubt I will return to the genre. I hope you think long and hard before departing ... while your RP is a little unusual (borrowing from a real person in an unusual line of work), gamewise it is rather unorthodox and colorful which makes for an interesting and well-known character. I for one would like to see you and the articles you publish continued. Controversy is good, it gives people like me something to alternatively support and despise depending on mood and topic of the moment. Thanks for the good times, Heff (I mean the conversation!) Hopefully there will be more of them. ~Gigi~
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:35:00 - [67] Customer support is just simply overloaded with work. There's too many petitions and not enough people to deal with them. The GM's that have helped me seemed helpful and all, but I get the feelign they can only devote a few minutes to each petition, when they should be devoting their complete attention to it until it is resolved, especially one this serious. Very simply, CCP needs to either hire some more people or rethink their whole petition system. I've been emailing them for a week about EVE hardlocking on me all the time and so far all I've gotten are cut-paste responses that hardly have anything to do with my problem.
Kiana'tre	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:54:00 - [68] Well i know for a fact that CCP can track items extensively. And that if they know it is an exploit they will come for the items and take them from you........(I know this) The Fact of the matter is that the GM's seem to show some sort of unorganized and unfair approach to all aspects of this game. If you set it up to be where the players should not be able to get to the stuff and then through some bull** methodolgy obtained the BP's out of the LAB you are not to blame. The GM's need to own up to what the hell is going on in the game. They pick and chose what they believe if fair and what is not. I believe there is a partial standing policy on some aspects of the game and on others it is handled by a case-by-case basis. The best way to lose customers in a game is to make it seem unfair and to act towards players in a retalitory manner. Heff your lost your BP's man, the GM's know they were stolen... they don't care because one of them decieded that it was stolen fairly. But it was clearly not somethign that was susposed to happen and thereby is bull and should be corrected. It would be best for CCP to quit letting players be in the Dark about all ingame policies. This includes techinal information about how each item works and bugs they are aware of. We lost 2x scorpians due to modules turing off that were on autorepeat and countless other ships have been lost due to things like this. If ccp would publish problems in the game we could all avoid them. CCP YOU FOR TRYING TO HIDE YOUR CODE AND SHORT COMINGS YOU FOR NOT LETTING PLAYERS LIKE HEFF KNOW ABOUT SITUATIONS THAT CAN BE EXPLOITED. ** YOU FOR YOUR STUPID POLICIES THAT DON'T MAKE EXPLOITS PUBLIC UNTIL THEY ARE RESOLVED. THIS KEEPS US BLIND TO THEM AND THEREBY INCREASES THE DAMAGE DONE. PLEASE PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES
Wrangler	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:26:00 - [69] If I understand this thing about research correctly, when you manufacture, you get the option to choose where to output the item you're manufacturing. I think the same goes for blueprints, but instead of outputting an item, it outputs the BP. So, if you have query access, so you can research a BP, you simply choose to output the blueprint into a hangar where you have take access. I'm not a researcher, but I think that is the way it works. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
GM Ender	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:34:00 - [70] Look. We can¦t make it any clearer than this. We¦ve already said that we know exactly where the blueprints are, and who has them, and if that person hadn¦t obtained said blueprints through regular and allowed gameplay (corp theft by someone with legitimate access), we would have already returned them to their rightful owner. Without wanting to sound in any way arrogant or uncaring, why players always insist on blaming everything on bugs before investigating in-house is beyond me. Senior Game Master Ender
Datsevlu	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:36:00 - [71] Wrong. The output option is only for where you want the finish product to go such as a copy. And the resource option is because they use the same factory interface but I assume this will be for future reverse eng. But no I have done alot of testing on the lab slots and the output hanger is only for when you have a finished product. There is another way to get these bp's out of a secure area but I am not going to list that here I have a bug report on this. -- Datsevlu Blow'em up we'll build more. Techell's ingame site
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:37:00 - [72] Quote: Look. We can¦t make it any clearer than this. We¦ve already said that we know exactly where the blueprints are, and who has them, and if that person hadn¦t obtained said blueprints through regular and allowed gameplay (corp theft by someone with legitimate access), we would have already returned them to their rightful owner. Without wanting to sound in any way arrogant or uncaring, why players always insist on blaming everything on bugs before investigating in-house is beyond me. Senior Game Master Ender Can't put it any clearer than that. Heff, looks like you have a thief amongst your crew. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:47:00 - [73] At this point, there is so much heated debate on this topic that I doubt CCP could ever admit if the missing BPs were due to a bug or oversight. It is much easier to say it is a legitimate theft and not name names than to try to repair the damage done if they admit otherwise. So itÆs a ôlegitimate theftö with no suspects and the issue is forever buried. While I disagree, IÆm powerless as a player.. But as a client, I have the power fire Crowd Control Productions which is what I am doing. Thanks everyone for the months of fun. While IÆd love to give you all of my stuff, I think my corp mates are entitled to it first if they decide to stay (and most wonÆt). Take good care, Heff
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:48:00 - [74] "Can't put it any clearer than that. Heff, looks like you have a thief amongst your crew." ... 'Tis worse than that; if it's like GMs say, that in this particular case the person who has the BPs now obtained them through granted access rights with no exploit whatsoever... then Mr.Heff already knows who it is... and although it means nothing, am really sorry something like that has happened. :/
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:55:00 - [75] If someone had 'take' access to your secure hangar (or was able to give themselves take access) then they were stolen 'fairly' and this should be confirmed by the GMs, even if they don't name names. If they were taken any other way then either it's the result of a bug (and the items returned, but this is being denied) or everyone doesn't understand how the factory interface works. In which case, this should be explained so that people can avoid it in the future. Whichever of the above is true I think this case is really the highest profile one so far of how much damage a corp thief can do - and how very, very little a corp can respond to it. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
The Daddy	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:59:00 - [76] I think the GM's have made this case clear.... They have said no exploit was used and this is a legitimate corp theft, therfore if only Heff and one other have access and it wasn't Heff....... Heff knows the score, so it is up to him what to do next. If it was me it would be a bit of a real life re-evaluation Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!
xpero	Posted - 2003.10.08 22:03:00 - [77] thats lame. CCP you loose players over some stupid balance ! can't you see that ? Less players in game = less $$ to keep eve going. I know that it isnt easy to be a GM delaing with problems everytime but why do you close your eyes to this matter ? this is a GAME ! saying that settling this matter yourself may be not as easy as it sounds for there are no legal action you can take to prevent that. players do what they wanna do and there isnt a sinlge thing you can do about it ! you say settle this matter yourself, then at least be decent enough to provide assistance as to how to do that. i am not flmaing or trolling, i am just saying it like it is. its sad (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.08 22:04:00 - [78] Quote: I think the GM's have made this case clear.... They have said no exploit was used and this is a legitimate corp theft, therfore if only Heff and one other have access and it wasn't Heff....... Heff knows the score, so it is up to him what to do next. If it was me it would be a bit of a real life re-evaluation If that is the case then both players should petition to have their names cleared to each other - surely the GMs would be willing to do that. If one of the two players refuses to do this then massive alarm bells must sound. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Kalar Vrask	Posted - 2003.10.08 22:10:00 - [79] Heff, I deeply sympathise with you. This is a disgusting feature of the game that a single person can run off with an entire corps work, and there is effectively nothing the corp can do about it. Furthermore, CCP WON'T do anything about it, even worse. I may have information leading to the alt of the person who has the prints, please convo me ingame for that info. Kalar Vrask, The Elite
The Daddy	Posted - 2003.10.08 22:19:00 - [80] Athule, I think your idea is a good one. If both parties are innocent, then it is NOT a valid game mechanic, if not.......... Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.09 00:50:00 - [81] Quote: "Can't put it any clearer than that. Heff, looks like you have a thief amongst your crew." ... 'Tis worse than that; if it's like GMs say, that in this particular case the person who has the BPs now obtained them through granted access rights with no exploit whatsoever... then Mr.Heff already knows who it is... and although it means nothing, am really sorry something like that has happened. :/ Read the CSM, it goes even further. No doubt after those words. No exploit, and the BPs are in his/her alt. I don't know what is worse. But I'll let you complete this phrase. BTW, I sympathise with you Heff. In 2 corps I've been, I was a victim of theft. In the first one, unfortunately, there were no security options, so basically, stealing stuff was rather easy. _______________________________________________
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.09 00:52:00 - [82] Quote: Or better yet if they have known each other 10 years they should be able to trust each other with the Login and password of each other's accounts. My core members are my Best Friends in RL I have thier L/p's and they have mine. That is how I was able to find the issue that we had and track the person that had our bp from the mistake that was made. I don't know if this is the way it uses to be because I work primarily with IT security, but I would never give my password to anyone, nor my son or even my wife. It's not a matter of trust, I think it's a matter of habit. _______________________________________________
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:24:00 - [83] Yeah if you've known the guy for a long time and trust him it's pretty easy to prove neither of you stole it by providing eachother with username/password and checking eachother's wallets. Although this might be against the EULA =/ Sad though what greed will do to people, especially when it makes a 10 year friend steal virtual items from you, that's just sad =/
Livak	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:28:00 - [84] I don't understand why the GM's can't just say the prints were stolen from the secure hanger. Saying they were stolen by legitmate means is dancing around the question. I want it answered in black and white. Were the prints stolen from the hanger they were originally installed into the research slot from? Yes/No That is all I need to know. I don't care if the view it as "legitimate", if the answer is no, it means factory and research slots are not secure if someone has view access.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:39:00 - [85] Edited by: Heff on 09/10/2003 04:44:56 OK, this is it. This will blow this wide open. My buddy/CEO Dora did not steal the blueprints and neither did I. It has to be a loophole in the game mechanics and I will tell you why: Let me give CCP the benefit of the doubt. Let us assume that this was a valid theft. Let us say that the thief had access to our secure hangar. Why then are the only items that are missing the items that were just in the lab? We have many many valuable things in our secure hangar and anyone who had access to it would surely haven taken everything else. We could assume this thief was a genius and assume he only took those items that were recently in the lab so he could blame a potential lab bug. But I doubt that happenned and honestly it does not matter. If CCP is saying that we had a legitmate thief, he would have needed access to the secure hangar. If so, he would still have access rights now. Nobody, not even a director, can take away his own access to a hangar. Try it yourself. Even if our thief was a director and could take things out of the secure hangar, he couldnÆt turn off his directorÆs rights. What IÆm saying is, there is no way a thief could cover his own tracks. If a thief had access to our secure hangar, he would still have it and we would see that. If the thief was a director and ripped us off, he would still be a director and we would see that. The fact that you cannot remove your own hangar access or directorÆs rights means we should see a smoking gun. IÆm sorry CCP, you are wrong here. If we had a legitimate thief in the corp who ever had secure access rights or directorÆs rights, he would still have them... he couldnÆt possibly cover his tracks and take them away from himself. Try it yourself. In the end, somehow our BPs left the corp; that much is clear. But nobody should have been able to get the BPs out of their secure hangar legitimately for the reasons I stated above without us knowing who it was -- and it wasn't Dora or I. This MUST be a loophole in the game mechanics (or a bug if you want to call it that). Heff
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:47:00 - [86] Heff, you should log on to chaos and re-create the loophole with someone, and prove it once and for all to CCP that through no fault of your own, you lost these blueprints. I am under the impression that CCP belives that there is/was no loophole, so you should be able to prove your point on chaos just fine. Hope everything works out for you. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Cruise	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:50:00 - [87] Okay I'm confused. With all the hooplah about this particular situation being even involved in the CSM logs WHY haven't CCP put this matter right. Here's some nifty quotes from the CSM log: "TomB> It is a known issue and a fix is being worked on" What known issue? If there's no bug, as was firmly stated by the GM's, then why is something needing to be fixed? WHAT'S being fixed? That statement only fans the flames in my opinion. And no, that statement was not taken out of context, people. "Pann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly" Okay that statement was made during the CSM convo on 08/10/2003. It's been some time now since that CSM chat was completed and Heff just posted again. WHY haven't the involved parties (Heff being one of them) been contacted yet?!? You're dragging out a painful situation here CCP and it sucks. Show some compassion and for Chrissake TELL the man what you know as you alluded you would and NOT when it's convenient to you! ------------------------------------------- Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:52:00 - [88] Quote: Edited by: Heff on 09/10/2003 01:43:45 OK, this is it. This will blow this wide open. My buddy did not steal the blueprints and neither did I. It has to be a loophole in the game mechanics and I will tell you why: Let me give CCP the benefit of the doubt. Let us assume that this was a valid theft. Let us say that the thief had access to our secure hangar. Why then are the only items that are missing the items that were just in the lab? We have many many valuable things in our secure hangar and anyone who had access to it would surely haven taken everything else. We could assume this thief was a genius and assume he only took those items that were recently in the lab so he could blame a potential lab bug. But I doubt that happenned and honestly it does not matter. If CCP is saying that we had a legitmate thief, he would have needed access to the secure hangar. If so, he would still have that access right now. Nobody, not even a director, can take away his own access to a hangar. Try it yourself. Even if our thief was a director and could take things out of the secure hangar, he couldnÆt turn off his directorÆs right. What IÆm saying is, there is no way a thief could cover his own tracks. If a thief had access to our secure hangar, he would still have it and we would see that. If the thief was a director and ripped us off, he would still be a director and we would see that. The fact that you cannot remove your own hangar access or directorÆs rights means we should see a smoking gun. IÆm sorry CCP, you are wrong here. If we had a legitimate thief in the corp who ever had secure assess rights or directorÆs rights, he would still have them... he couldnÆt possibly cover his tracks and take them away from himself. Try it yourself. In the end, someone in our corp purposely harmed us, that much is clear. But nobody should have been able to do that and gotten away with it for the reasons I stated above. This MUST be a loophole in the game machanics (or a bug if you want to call it that). Heff Heff will you login and drop me a message you blighter? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.09 02:07:00 - [89] It's going to be interesting if that bug report filled by what-their-name from Techel will make the GMs rethink their words on it being a legitimate theft. If in fact those BPs were stolen right from the secure hangers, then it was either Heff's character ot Dora's (sp). Now I'm not saying either player are to blame, but if someone else got access to their account information and logged in as them and removed it, then in CCP's eyes it was a legitimate theft since 1 of the 2 characters w/ access DID in fact steal them, although it wasn't in fact that player who was in control of thier character. Hint to GM's, check IP address of the offending person and see if it matches logs of the normal IP of the person who is on that acount 99.9999% of the time. I sure as hell hope your log-in server keeps those records.
PERCYDAMAN	Posted - 2003.10.09 02:25:00 - [90] CCP saying that someone from inside corp did this because they can show that only 2 people had access to that hangar proves nothing! Or I should say that if anything, it might prove that someone indeed got the bp's from the bp eject bug. If it happened from a bug then whos to say that CCP's methods of tracking those kind of issues aren't borked as well???

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