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Who Has PlayboyÆs Blueprints?

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Heff	Posted - 2003.10.07 19:43:00 - [1] Edited by: Heff on 07/10/2003 20:49:17 OK, who is the lucky person who got all of our blueprints? A week or so ago, all of our lab slots in Stegette System (Duvolle Labs Station) unrented themselves. There were messages in the mailbox saying that the leases were terminated due to lack of use (which we know is not true since all of teh BPs were in the labs for research or copying). When the labs unrented themselves, all of our original blueprints vanished. In following up with the GMs, they said another person had our blueprints. I have read about a recurring bug that leaves BPs in the labs when labs unrent themselves and the next lucky person who rents the labs gets to eject the blueprints and keep them for themselves. I have asked the GM to contact the person who has the BPs in an attempt to ascertain how they got them. Before CCP responds, I am asking the person/corporation who has them to step forward and admit how they obtained them. Please, if you purchased them from a member of Playboy Enterprises, please tell me who sold them to you and this issue will be resolved -- the BPs will be yours fair and square. If you got them through a bug, it is in your best interest to step forward as this may be seen as an exploit (having gained material possessions through a bug without reporting it). Please, pretty please, in the spirit of fairness, contact me or post here so we can handle this ASAP before trouble ensues. That's all I ask Thank you all, Heff President, Playboy Enterprises [email protected]
Singular	Posted - 2003.10.07 19:50:00 - [2] This will end badly. Im Yo Huckleberreh
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.07 19:55:00 - [3] Edited by: Heff on 07/10/2003 20:24:02 Quote: This will end badly. Unless the people who got them still don't know they have them. The BPs could have ejected to another player's hangar and they haven't seen them yet, but I highly doubt it. Consider that we are missing the following BPs: 1 Apocalypse original 1 Megathron Original 1 Moa Original 1 Maller Original 1 Thorax Original 1 Rupture Original 1 Iteron V Original People WOULD tend to notice if they "stumbled" onto these little babies. We will see. If CCP can't resolve this one, Heff is retiring (and you cannot have my stuff).
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.07 19:58:00 - [4] Edited by: Morkt Drak on 07/10/2003 20:00:04 So THAT's what happened to our &*^% BP.. FWIW I bloody hope CCP actually return the BPs.. no way on earth this cna ever be the fault of the player, considered part of the game or any other paltry excuse.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.07 20:21:00 - [5] /emotequickly checks his hangars 8796 civilian railguns. Phew! LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Archain	Posted - 2003.10.07 20:31:00 - [6] I don't like how this is sounding =/ Space Invaders Movie Library - [SPVD]
Dandrik	Posted - 2003.10.07 20:50:00 - [7] Quote: We will see. If CCP can't resolve this one, Heff is retiring (and you cannot have my stuff). Woohoo!!!! Maybe they will stop hijacking threads!
Snoop	Posted - 2003.10.07 21:07:00 - [8] it twas the one armed man
Jebba IV	Posted - 2003.10.07 21:12:00 - [9] damn man that sucks!
Danton Marcellus	Posted - 2003.10.07 21:15:00 - [10] That's it, I'm renting my ass off right now! Convert Stations
Victoria Madison	Posted - 2003.10.07 21:20:00 - [11] HEY CCP!!!! Please wake up and help Heff find his blueprints so that I, Victoria Madison, can finally be proclaimed Miss September!! psst...hey Heff, I'm helping all I can.
Jessica Logan	Posted - 2003.10.07 21:28:00 - [12] Can't see CCP offering much, if any, of a refund. Doubt they have logs to disprove the old "I'll shout about losing BPs in an attempt to gain more". oO
xpero	Posted - 2003.10.07 21:35:00 - [13] that sucks, man. i feel your pain. i know what it is like to loose something you so hard worked to achieve. (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Killuha	Posted - 2003.10.07 21:42:00 - [14] You will get those BP¦s back, it¦s just a matter of time, my old corp lost its arma original and it took ccp about 1 week to sort things out, but in the end they will give them back.
Crimsonjade	Posted - 2003.10.07 22:09:00 - [15] It took us 1 hour to get it back after our megathron bp disappeared in a factory slot when we hit "ok" to build. Not sure if your situation falls under the same category, but they were very quick to fix things. No pain, no palm; no thorns, no throne; no gall, no glory; no cross, no crown.
Shock	Posted - 2003.10.07 22:16:00 - [16] Edited by: Shock on 07/10/2003 22:18:50 Quote: 1 Apocalypse original 1 Megathron Original 1 Moa Original 1 Maller Original 1 Thorax Original 1 Rupture Original 1 Iteron V Original Whoah that more then hurts, this is the kind of stuff that kills... The kind of stuff that can tear whole corps in pieces and ends in RL issues... Shame on CCP on letting you letting in the dark this long. It sure is busy at Algogille though --- soonÖ
DREAMWORKS	Posted - 2003.10.07 22:19:00 - [17] However i dont like playboy, i must say that losing those bp's is very painfull. __________________________ http://www.nin.com/visuals/thtf_hi.html
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.07 22:27:00 - [18] :-( I hope you get them back, and soon too. Things like this should be easily confirmable using logs and so just as easy to put right. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.07 22:42:00 - [19] Edited by: Heff on 07/10/2003 22:45:59 Thanks everyone for your support. The thing that bothers me the most is the fact that I get nothing but short, basically useless answers from CCP before my petition goes back to the end of the line again. IÆve already waited a week since this happened and only now did they tell me that the BPs are actually in someone elseÆs hands. Whose hands those are is coming next. I am just surprised this issue isnÆt getting more attention from CCP than it seemingly is. My point from the beginning is that there has to be a bug involved. The ONLY ways our BPs could have gotten into someone elseÆs hands are as follows: 1)Labs unrent themselves (bug) and the BPs donÆt come out correctly (bug), and the next person who rents the labs gets to have them (bug). -or- 2)Let us assume that the labs didnÆt unrent themselves (assume a spy unrented the labs). The blueprints were installed from a secure hangar that only 2 players had access to. If the labs were sabotaged, then the blueprints should have popped back into the secure hangar. The fact that they didnÆt is a bug. CCP: I am not trying to cheat, grief , or get anything that isnÆt mine. If I am, feel free to ban me. Help me help you; letÆs make this a better game and find the bugs that are killing it. I am not asking for anything special. Whatever the case, this is easily a corp-killing event. Even if we get everything back, it is hard to stay motivated knowing the next blowup could be right around the corner. Faith is dwindling. Heff
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.08 02:01:00 - [20] Heff, that other person with access to the BP hanger, is that an alt or yours or another account of yours? If it's neither of those and it's someone other than you, I personally would start all investigations on them or anybody who can give access to that hanger (assuming the latter is only you). Greed is the striving force in Eve of late, lets look at the recent robbery of a certain pirate corp. Yes it was in the company he kept, but at any time your closest freinds can turn on you if there is some isk in it for them. On the common note, I hope you get your BP's back as that truely is a tragidy.
MS BLAST	Posted - 2003.10.08 02:44:00 - [21] Ahhh now I'll never get to ride Heff's Megathron....
MrPops	Posted - 2003.10.08 03:01:00 - [22] Heff, best of luck with this issue man. I hope CCP help you to get your BP's back. Specially if you lost them to a bug. "The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is." Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.10.08 03:03:00 - [23] Heff, If the GM's know another player has them they have to know how they received them (even ingame "trades" appear in the transaction log). I hope you get them back. Keep us posted please. Calladen
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.08 03:58:00 - [24] I'm just confused here. Why didn't the GM finish the job? If he saw that someone else had the blueprints, why not at least put you out of your misery if they had been thugged legit? Or say that something wasn't right and he had to investigate further? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Primer Xenius	Posted - 2003.10.08 04:04:00 - [25] Heff, My understanding is (from our research team) that BP should return to the SAME corporation hanger as they came from when installed. Since not just one BP disappeared but many, my view is either: 1) They dropped out to some other stranger as you suggested (I really doubt that happened but it would clearly be a bug, warranting a return of the BPs for the Devs). I'm sure CCP would be able to see this (and from posts in here, it seems clear they do). 2) Someone in your corp, cancelled the research jobs (seems like it, since its unlikely that all of the BPs would drop out at the same time in the wrong hanger to be stolen) and made a runner. This would be an internal corp issue which CCP could not act against (and could not give you a name either). I hope CCP clarifies if it was a bug or not for you. I do wish you luck in getting them back. Its kills the game losing so much work. "we all know CA planned to attack Xetic "when the time was right" from day1" - Lallante
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 05:01:00 - [26] Quote: 2) Someone in your corp, cancelled the research jobs (seems like it, since its unlikely that all of the BPs would drop out at the same time in the wrong hanger to be stolen) and made a runner. This would be an internal corp issue which CCP could not act against (and could not give you a name either). Let us assume this is the case. If someone DID cancel the research jobs, or unrented the labs purposely, wouldn't those BPs return to the secure hangar they were installed from? If that is what is supposed to happen, then they should still be sitting there and they are not. If someone can cancel the job and/or unrent the labs and have the BPs go somewhere other than where they were installed from, then that is a problem. Why would you have an "install from" hangar that does not get the BPs back when they are free?
Kaylon Syi	Posted - 2003.10.08 05:08:00 - [27] Starting to look like a Corporate Theft to me. Thats what happens when too many people have access to High Security Hangars. Maybe CCP should have a Blueprint Hangar that can only be opened by the CEO and Security Officer(s) together thru some sort of Corporate management tool. That way ejected BPs would output. I would rather loose a week or 2 of research ( if someone needed for access wasn't online for that long ) than to get them stolen forever and ever. My +0.02 ISK
Jolo	Posted - 2003.10.08 05:10:00 - [28] We've had some wierdness with Factory unrenting. We built a thorax and it unrented at the end, but returned the BP but no Thorax or minerals. Day 5 of my petition, hope they find it! ---------------------------------------
Exel Aurora	Posted - 2003.10.08 05:12:00 - [29] Quote: Edited by: Heff on 07/10/2003 22:45:59 2)Let us assume that the labs didnÆt unrent themselves (assume a spy unrented the labs). The blueprints were installed from a secure hangar that only 2 players had access to. If the labs were sabotaged, then the blueprints should have popped back into the secure hangar. The fact that they didnÆt is a bug. Sorry to hear about your loss, but I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind. Who is other person that has access to that hangar? Is it an alt or second account of yours? If not, is it someone you know in real life? If not, could that person have stolen your blueprints? Thank you for answering.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 05:13:00 - [30] Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 05:16:41 Quote: Starting to look like a Corporate Theft to me. Thats what happens when too many people have access to High Security Hangars. That's just it though. Only 2 people had access to the secure hangar that housed our original BPs. Neither one of us gave them away. Knowing that, for them to go missing sounds like a bug. Quote: Sorry to hear about your loss, but I have a couple questions for you if you don't mind. Who is other person that has access to that hangar? Is it an alt or second account of yours? If not, is it someone you know in real life? If not, could that person have stolen your blueprints? Thank you for answering. Yeah, the other person is a close friend of mine whom I've known for over 10 years. He did not swipe them.
Halo Jones	Posted - 2003.10.08 07:10:00 - [31] check the entire corps access profiles again in addition, check who can grant which roles, possible althought someone does have access they couldgrant it, nick stuff, remove it, to cover their tracks if it the unrent and rerent thing, it is a game bug, u should get the stuff back, it would howevere be possible that when someone rented a lab they may not have realised the gift they got, maybe the have lower fodler access for their and not max.sec.folder and havent seen the 'gift' Oberon Incorporated.
Vegeta	Posted - 2003.10.08 09:24:00 - [32] Heff did anyone else have access to that hangar than yourself and that other person? Then im not talking about take access but view access. If so did that same person have access to cancel/start research jobs? If this is the case there is a way to effectively steal blueprints. Im not going to say how but Heff, if this is the case message me in-game. 2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
Serge	Posted - 2003.10.08 10:59:00 - [33] Heff - terribly sorry for you to happen! I really hope CCP will help you asap! This kind of bugs should be dealt with instantly!! Moreover, a bit more help by GM¦s would be appreciated. I mean, a big load of ship bp origs including BS ... damn, thats a big load of TIME spent. GL guys! *********************************************** ... "we suddenly have a good 2 dozen Chicken Littles running about proclaiming tha
SlightlyMad	Posted - 2003.10.08 13:24:00 - [34] * -"You know, we play the "good guys" right? We kill pirates, griefers, retards and general subversive elements in the EVE-Community. To the rest, we are friendly and always prepared to help out. Peo
PsychoBitch	Posted - 2003.10.08 13:37:00 - [35] Edited by: Psycho**** on 08/10/2003 13:39:53* This is just the sort of incompetence that CCP is famous for. This is destroying our corp. This certainly isn't good for anyone else either. Prove to me it is not a bug. The least they could have done is followup and tell us IF someone unrented the hangerand it is not a bug, who? If someone traded the BP's, who? Is CCP THAT stupid? I'll answer that one. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Psycho***** Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: [email protected]
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.08 14:14:00 - [36] Quote: Edited by: Psycho**** on 08/10/2003 13:39:53* This is just the sort of incompetence that CCP is famous for. This is destroying our corp. This certainly isn't good for anyone else either. Prove to me it is not a bug. The least they could have done is followup and tell us IF someone unrented the hangerand it is not a bug, who? If someone traded the BP's, who? Is CCP THAT stupid? I'll answer that one. I have to say that I was caught in a situation similar to this, but not anywhere near as serious, where money appeared in the wrong person's account. The person at the other end claimed to have never received any money and to not be able to open their wallet and not to be getting responses to petitions. I asked for CCP (polaris/gm) to just tell the other person whether or not they had received the money and if it had been transferred into someone elses account to tell them that. None of that would have been information they couldn't gained if they'd been able to open their wallet and I wasn't asking anything from the GMs other than to confirm to me that they'd passed on this information. At least then I would have been satisified that the money had been grabbed rather than having someone frustratingly deny that they knew nothing about it. In the end we just declared war on them, in that respect it was at least fortunate we had a target to attack. I hope that the same thing doesn't end up happening to you - I think the GM's role shouldn't just be to say 'sorry there's no bug' they should also be able to explain what has happened to players. If you have been robbed 'fair and square' then they could at least tell you that even if they don't tell you the name. As it is it just leaves players up in the air and annoyed for reasons that have nothing to do with being robbed (which obviously is really annoying in itself). _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Panacea Dollar	Posted - 2003.10.08 14:16:00 - [37] Quote: there has to be a bug involved Come on this is CCP we're talking about. They test their code to death before release...
Datsevlu	Posted - 2003.10.08 14:50:00 - [38] Heff I may have something that can help you out. We have taken away factory operation from many because of this bug but I am not going to post the bug that I found here because it could be used as an exploit to rip off a corp. And this can be done if the member has read access to the hanger where the bp is and lab access. So convo me in game I am putting in a bug report after I post this. -- Datsevlu Blow'em up we'll build more. Techell's ingame site
PsychoBitch	Posted - 2003.10.08 15:08:00 - [39] CCP=incompetence that can't be right, can it? Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Psycho***** Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: [email protected]
Shock	Posted - 2003.10.08 15:08:00 - [40] Quote: Quote: there has to be a bug involved Come on this is CCP we're talking about. They test their code to death before release... And their bug testers are a team of highly skilled professionals... --- soonÖ
darth solo	Posted - 2003.10.08 15:28:00 - [41] Quote: HEY CCP!!!! Please wake up and help Heff find his blueprints so that I, Victoria Madison, can finally be proclaimed Miss September!! psst...hey Heff, I'm helping all I can. Hey, i think we arnt seeing the real tradgedy here, WOOOOOOO, your hot, fancy a date vicky?
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 15:34:00 - [42] Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 15:55:21 Quote: Heff did anyone else have access to that hangar than yourself and that other person? Then im not talking about take access but view access. If so did that same person have access to cancel/start research jobs? If this is the case there is a way to effectively steal blueprints. Im not going to say how but Heff, if this is the case message me in-game. Vegeta, yes, many people had 'view' access to the secure hangar and many people had access to start and stop production/lab jobs. We always wanted to allow people to build from our secure blueprints without being able to take them. It was just my understanding that BPs would ALWAYS eject to the hangar they were installed from (in this case, the very secure one). If some other combo of access rights creates the ability to swipe BPs, then that is just simply ridiculous. Based on what I'm hearing, it sounds like someone with only view access can do this: 1) Start a production job since only 'view' access is required. 2) Cancel that production job 3) Blueprints go somewhere other than the secure hangar. So effectively, someone without take access can still take the blueprints. I invite everyone to go try it then maybe CCP will figure it out. Whatever the case, it's over now. Heff and his very successful combat alt are calling it quits. I may poke around here in the next few days to see what happens, but I've already divested myself from the game. It causes way to much grief for what it's worth. Heff
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.08 15:54:00 - [43] Only other thing I can think of (besides the highly possible bug in the game) is, someone gained access to you or your friend's account information somehow. Or someone was over at his/your place while he/you were online and in a differnt room and took control of the PC. Don't rule out a problem outside of the game that is a bit more criminal in RL.
Presidio	Posted - 2003.10.08 16:08:00 - [44] CCP never gave us anything, lost to the bugs, back... and that's including a Rupture BP. I pettitioned, like 3-4 months ago, and they said they would investigate it, never heard anything back from them. Now back than that was 25 mill... 25 mill is not much today, but it sure would have helped to have it back than. So everytime I see people leaving this game I don't blame them. - "Passivity is fatal to us. Our goal is to make the enemy passive." Mao Tse-tung
Ezra	Posted - 2003.10.08 16:13:00 - [45] I remember a while ago (I thought that crap was fixed...) there was a bug in which in certain auto-unrenting cases, a BP would pop into the 7th division hangar (what used to be the factory hangar before they completely got rid of any distinction between hangars.) In Xanadu, our most valued BPs are only kept in personal hangars and used in personal slots of the execs. (Examples: My Thorax original, the corp's Scorp original.) It can sometimes be difficult, but when members want to produce one of the restricted items themselves they ask those with access for a copy. It's safest that way, as inconvenient as it can sometimes be. Good Luck Heff. ------------ Ezra Cornell pe0n, Xanadu Corporation
Teen	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:03:00 - [46] Miss August hereby officially announces her support for Playboy and Heff in this matter. CCP, please fix this as soon as possible, the mansion has been no fun since this happened :P. And Heff, don't quit! I want more playmates! ;) Miss August 2003 - http://eve.unnerf.com/
GM sw00sh	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:24:00 - [47] Just to set the record straight, this is not a bug. We can't name any names, but the corp in question should really look within their own ranks for the culprit. We know exactly where the blueprints are at this moment, and they did not just vanish
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:32:00 - [48] Edited by: j0sephine on 08/10/2003 17:33:19 "Just to set the record straight, this is not a bug. We can't name any names, but the corp in question should really look within their own ranks for the culprit. We know exactly where the blueprints are at this moment, and they did not just vanish" ... I think the question is then, did the unnamed person get in possession of the blueprints because they were granted the rights necessary for that and abused that trust... or because they took advantage of some mentioned here earlier and undocumented quirk of the BP-handling and hangar access mechanics? If the latter, then it'd seem CCP still bears at least some responsibility for the situation and should perhaps cooperate more openly in rectifying it.... o.O
Dau Imperius	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:33:00 - [49] Alright let me be the first one to say this to the GM since they keep saying they know: THEN TELL HEFF AND THEM FOR CHRIST SAKES! Jeez, I know you all have rough jobs with this game and us pushy players but this is a whole corp and perhaps players you'll be losing if you don't help them out.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:34:00 - [50] Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 17:37:34 Quote: Just to set the record straight, this is not a bug. We can't name any names, but the corp in question should really look within their own ranks for the culprit. We know exactly where the blueprints are at this moment, and they did not just vanish That is fine. But through a combination of activites listed above, someone without secure hangar access was able to get secure materials. Starting/stopping, renting/unrenting, etc. can all be used creatively to get something out of a 'view only' hangar. It really does not matter anymore. If we were ripped off fair and square, my hat's off to the thief. You win, I lose, and Eve loses another group of players. No big deal.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:34:00 - [51] Quote: Just to set the record straight, this is not a bug. We can't name any names, but the corp in question should really look within their own ranks for the culprit. We know exactly where the blueprints are at this moment, and they did not just vanish Sw00sh, I hate to be a pain in the ass (actually I quite enjoy it) but given the fact that the security logging features that would tell CEOs, Directors and those with auditing access just what Heff needs to know aren't working properly, have you considered that it's wholly appropriate to give him that information? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Datsevlu	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:36:00 - [52] GM - I would believe them on this they did prove to me that my problem with our bp was not a bug, but I have log in access to all the core members that have access to that hanger and was able to go through the journal to find where the problem was. But even knowing that there is a valid bug that I have tested that you can remove a bp from a secure hanger and no one would ever know. We are changing our security measures to compensate for this exploitable bug, until I get a response on my bug report that I placed today. I will not list the details because of the possible expliot. But if your bp's are in your personal hanger this cannot happen. -- Datsevlu Blow'em up we'll build more. Techell's ingame site
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:49:00 - [53] Quote: Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 17:37:34 Quote: Just to set the record straight, this is not a bug. We can't name any names, but the corp in question should really look within their own ranks for the culprit. We know exactly where the blueprints are at this moment, and they did not just vanish That is fine. But through a combination of activites listed above, someone without secure hangar access was able to get secure materials. Starting/stopping, renting/unrenting, etc. can all be used creatively to get something out of a 'view only' hangar. It really does not matter anymore. If we were ripped off fair and square, my hat's off to the thief. You win, I lose, and Eve loses another group of players. No big deal. Well...Heff, I hate to say this but short of knowing who has the blueprints it's not certain that the 2nd person with access doesn't have them. Unless that 2nd person is your alt. That's the information that is needed to claim a bug: Proof Positive that the 2 people that had the access aren't the ones who did it. Or didn't accidently give access to the theif in the first place (another feature of the auditing log that's impossible to use) I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:53:00 - [54] I've never really researched anything before, but I know with manufacturing you have to specify the hanger the blueprints will return to when you're done don't you? Is it the same for research? If I don't know what I'm talking about feel free to say so, I haven't played EVE in a month due to RL issues and I've never been much of a blueprint handler in the first place, I just shoot things =P
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 17:54:00 - [55] Quote: Well...Heff, I hate to say this but short of knowing who has the blueprints it's not certain that the 2nd person with access doesn't have them. Unless that 2nd person is your alt. That 2nd person is Dora (our CEO) who has been my longtime friend of 10+ years. We are both leaving the game so I doubt it was him.
nails	Posted - 2003.10.08 18:11:00 - [56] Sad to see this happen :( with the hangers our ships are in, everyone either as query access, or factory access, not both. If they can use the factory slots, I have to make those hangers unviewable to them. Of course this is only for ships. copys of all the ammo/gun/drone prints are kept in another station in a hanger everyone can access. ------------------ http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
Vegeta	Posted - 2003.10.08 18:19:00 - [57] Sorry Heff but the bug Datsevlu speaks off, you can get any blueprint out of any hangar if you have access to install it to a production/research run and if you have view access to the hangar. 2005.04.25 16:40:42 combat Your 1400mm Howitzer Artillery II perfectly strikes LawrenceNewton [WARAG], wrecking for 2706.9 damage.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.08 18:21:00 - [58] Quote: Quote: Well...Heff, I hate to say this but short of knowing who has the blueprints it's not certain that the 2nd person with access doesn't have them. Unless that 2nd person is your alt. That 2nd person is Dora (our CEO) who has been my longtime friend of 10+ years. We are both leaving the game so I doubt it was him. Hmm..then I'd say press the GMs for details of how it happened since Sw00sh insists there's no bug involved. If there's no bug involved and the auditing tools were working properly, you'd have that information and be able to decipher what happened yourself. Or if you want to wait, there's a CSM meeting tonight. If nobody asks, I will. Or any question you'd want asked instead. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.08 18:40:00 - [59] CCP should give the blueprints back. Even if they were stolen by someone in your corp they should not have had the ability to steal them. The bug Datsevlu described should be reason enough for a refund, it's clear if someone has only view access to a hanger and the ability only to create reasearch jobs using prints from that hanger they shouldn't be able to just take them. If they don't have take access there should be no way for them to take the prints, regardless of whether or not they can start research. In fact, I remember a dev talking about this a while ago, and he said people would be able to start research or manufacturing from a hanger they only have view access to, thereby letting people use blueprints without putting them in jeopardy of being stolen. Seems that's exactly what Heff tried to set up, but due to a bug in the code the blueprints were no longer secure as they should have been.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 18:41:00 - [60] Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 18:49:01 Quote: Hmm..then I'd say press the GMs for details of how it happened since Sw00sh insists there's no bug involved. If there's no bug involved and the auditing tools were working properly, you'd have that information and be able to decipher what happened yourself. Or if you want to wait, there's a CSM meeting tonight. If nobody asks, I will. Or any question you'd want asked instead. The fact that anybody can get any BP out of a secure hangar even if they only have 'view' access is a problem. It may not ba a bug in the coding, but is in an oversite. 'View' access was intended to allow players to use BPs without running off with them. As the code works now, they can. In the spirit of the game and how it is intended to work, this is very very wrong. The program is doing what it is programmed to do, it just likely wasn't intended to work that way. Yes please, bring this up in the chat tonight. Now that this is in the open, you can bet it is going to occur more often and more people will be burned. Talk about a mass exodus -- our corp is already falling apart and more will follow.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.08 19:13:00 - [61] Quote: Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 18:49:01 Quote: Hmm..then I'd say press the GMs for details of how it happened since Sw00sh insists there's no bug involved. If there's no bug involved and the auditing tools were working properly, you'd have that information and be able to decipher what happened yourself. Or if you want to wait, there's a CSM meeting tonight. If nobody asks, I will. Or any question you'd want asked instead. The fact that anybody can get any BP out of a secure hangar even if they only have 'view' access is a problem. It may not ba a bug in the coding, but is in an oversite. 'View' access was intended to allow players to use BPs without running off with them. As the code works now, they can. In the spirit of the game and how it is intended to work, this is very very wrong. The program is doing what it is programmed to do, it just likely wasn't intended to work that way. Yes please, bring this up in the chat tonight. Now that this is in the open, you can bet it is going to occur more often and more people will be burned. Talk about a mass exodus -- our corp is already falling apart and more will follow. Heff, send me a message ingame or start a convo (may be afk as I'm at work). I'm not entirely sure what you want asked, but I'll give it a go if you explain a bit better. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Datsevlu	Posted - 2003.10.08 19:17:00 - [62] They can't tell you the information of who has the BP's but ask them they might be able to tell you who in your corp did the trade. At least I believe I could be wrong. Ask them because then you can find out who it was and how they were able to do this. -- Datsevlu Blow'em up we'll build more. Techell's ingame site
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.08 19:36:00 - [63] Well, if they find this as a bug, IMHO it should be catagorized as an Exploit and that person you say you know whom has the BPs should thus get banned for it and Heff should get his Bp's reimburst to him. If is is found as a bug/exploit and nothing is done to refund Heff for his BPs, then the GMs really should re-think thier way of dealing with people or think about going to pump gas at a local gas station.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:00:00 - [64] Edited by: Heff on 08/10/2003 20:14:15 Thank you again everyone for your support. This has been a horrible ordeal to contend with. As of now, even if I were to get all of the blueprints back, remaining in the game is still a question mark for me. The level of support I've received from CCP has taken away any faith I've ever had that this game can cater to its customers. They would need to absolutely and completely impress me with service for me to stay and I doubt they are capable of it quite frankly. Regardless, I hope we get the BPs back since there are other members of my corporation who may remain in Eve after I go. This was my first MMORPG and I doubt I will return to the genre. Heff
Livak	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:00:00 - [65] Edited by: Livak on 08/10/2003 20:06:55 Ok CCP, until I see a post from you guys stating that the original BP's were stored and installed from hanger 1 AND stolen from hanger 1, you haven't addressed this issue yet. While it is possible, that Heff is lying, or misinformed, I think he would know who has access to his secure hanger besides him and Dora, and can easilly check the security log to see if someone else had been granted access. As far as it being stolen. It's obvious to everyone that it was stolen. The question on everyone's mind is: Was it stolen from the secure hanger (you can check the log and see what hanger it was always stored in, and which hanger it was inserted into the research or factory slot from) or from some "other" hanger. If it was stolen from the secure hanger then end of story, it was a legitimate theft. If not then you have a serious bug. I think you owe the rest of us a clarification on this. Until I hear otherwise, I'm taking away everyone's factory access and moving all original bps to personal hangers.
Gigi Ana	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:09:00 - [66] Quote: As of now, even if I were to get all of the blueprints back, I doubt I can remain in the game. The level of support I've received from CCP has taken away any faith I've ever had that this game can cater to its customers. Regardless, I hope we get the BPs back since there are other members of my corporation who may remain in Eve after I go. This was my first MMORPG and I doubt I will return to the genre. I hope you think long and hard before departing ... while your RP is a little unusual (borrowing from a real person in an unusual line of work), gamewise it is rather unorthodox and colorful which makes for an interesting and well-known character. I for one would like to see you and the articles you publish continued. Controversy is good, it gives people like me something to alternatively support and despise depending on mood and topic of the moment. Thanks for the good times, Heff (I mean the conversation!) Hopefully there will be more of them. ~Gigi~
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:35:00 - [67] Customer support is just simply overloaded with work. There's too many petitions and not enough people to deal with them. The GM's that have helped me seemed helpful and all, but I get the feelign they can only devote a few minutes to each petition, when they should be devoting their complete attention to it until it is resolved, especially one this serious. Very simply, CCP needs to either hire some more people or rethink their whole petition system. I've been emailing them for a week about EVE hardlocking on me all the time and so far all I've gotten are cut-paste responses that hardly have anything to do with my problem.
Kiana'tre	Posted - 2003.10.08 20:54:00 - [68] Well i know for a fact that CCP can track items extensively. And that if they know it is an exploit they will come for the items and take them from you........(I know this) The Fact of the matter is that the GM's seem to show some sort of unorganized and unfair approach to all aspects of this game. If you set it up to be where the players should not be able to get to the stuff and then through some bull** methodolgy obtained the BP's out of the LAB you are not to blame. The GM's need to own up to what the hell is going on in the game. They pick and chose what they believe if fair and what is not. I believe there is a partial standing policy on some aspects of the game and on others it is handled by a case-by-case basis. The best way to lose customers in a game is to make it seem unfair and to act towards players in a retalitory manner. Heff your lost your BP's man, the GM's know they were stolen... they don't care because one of them decieded that it was stolen fairly. But it was clearly not somethign that was susposed to happen and thereby is bull and should be corrected. It would be best for CCP to quit letting players be in the Dark about all ingame policies. This includes techinal information about how each item works and bugs they are aware of. We lost 2x scorpians due to modules turing off that were on autorepeat and countless other ships have been lost due to things like this. If ccp would publish problems in the game we could all avoid them. CCP YOU FOR TRYING TO HIDE YOUR CODE AND SHORT COMINGS YOU FOR NOT LETTING PLAYERS LIKE HEFF KNOW ABOUT SITUATIONS THAT CAN BE EXPLOITED. ** YOU FOR YOUR STUPID POLICIES THAT DON'T MAKE EXPLOITS PUBLIC UNTIL THEY ARE RESOLVED. THIS KEEPS US BLIND TO THEM AND THEREBY INCREASES THE DAMAGE DONE. PLEASE PULL YOUR HEADS OUT OF YOUR ASSES
Wrangler	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:26:00 - [69] If I understand this thing about research correctly, when you manufacture, you get the option to choose where to output the item you're manufacturing. I think the same goes for blueprints, but instead of outputting an item, it outputs the BP. So, if you have query access, so you can research a BP, you simply choose to output the blueprint into a hangar where you have take access. I'm not a researcher, but I think that is the way it works. [Read the Rules!] - [Email the Moderators]
GM Ender	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:34:00 - [70] Look. We can¦t make it any clearer than this. We¦ve already said that we know exactly where the blueprints are, and who has them, and if that person hadn¦t obtained said blueprints through regular and allowed gameplay (corp theft by someone with legitimate access), we would have already returned them to their rightful owner. Without wanting to sound in any way arrogant or uncaring, why players always insist on blaming everything on bugs before investigating in-house is beyond me. Senior Game Master Ender
Datsevlu	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:36:00 - [71] Wrong. The output option is only for where you want the finish product to go such as a copy. And the resource option is because they use the same factory interface but I assume this will be for future reverse eng. But no I have done alot of testing on the lab slots and the output hanger is only for when you have a finished product. There is another way to get these bp's out of a secure area but I am not going to list that here I have a bug report on this. -- Datsevlu Blow'em up we'll build more. Techell's ingame site
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:37:00 - [72] Quote: Look. We can¦t make it any clearer than this. We¦ve already said that we know exactly where the blueprints are, and who has them, and if that person hadn¦t obtained said blueprints through regular and allowed gameplay (corp theft by someone with legitimate access), we would have already returned them to their rightful owner. Without wanting to sound in any way arrogant or uncaring, why players always insist on blaming everything on bugs before investigating in-house is beyond me. Senior Game Master Ender Can't put it any clearer than that. Heff, looks like you have a thief amongst your crew. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:47:00 - [73] At this point, there is so much heated debate on this topic that I doubt CCP could ever admit if the missing BPs were due to a bug or oversight. It is much easier to say it is a legitimate theft and not name names than to try to repair the damage done if they admit otherwise. So itÆs a ôlegitimate theftö with no suspects and the issue is forever buried. While I disagree, IÆm powerless as a player.. But as a client, I have the power fire Crowd Control Productions which is what I am doing. Thanks everyone for the months of fun. While IÆd love to give you all of my stuff, I think my corp mates are entitled to it first if they decide to stay (and most wonÆt). Take good care, Heff
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:48:00 - [74] "Can't put it any clearer than that. Heff, looks like you have a thief amongst your crew." ... 'Tis worse than that; if it's like GMs say, that in this particular case the person who has the BPs now obtained them through granted access rights with no exploit whatsoever... then Mr.Heff already knows who it is... and although it means nothing, am really sorry something like that has happened. :/
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:55:00 - [75] If someone had 'take' access to your secure hangar (or was able to give themselves take access) then they were stolen 'fairly' and this should be confirmed by the GMs, even if they don't name names. If they were taken any other way then either it's the result of a bug (and the items returned, but this is being denied) or everyone doesn't understand how the factory interface works. In which case, this should be explained so that people can avoid it in the future. Whichever of the above is true I think this case is really the highest profile one so far of how much damage a corp thief can do - and how very, very little a corp can respond to it. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
The Daddy	Posted - 2003.10.08 21:59:00 - [76] I think the GM's have made this case clear.... They have said no exploit was used and this is a legitimate corp theft, therfore if only Heff and one other have access and it wasn't Heff....... Heff knows the score, so it is up to him what to do next. If it was me it would be a bit of a real life re-evaluation Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!
xpero	Posted - 2003.10.08 22:03:00 - [77] thats lame. CCP you loose players over some stupid balance ! can't you see that ? Less players in game = less $$ to keep eve going. I know that it isnt easy to be a GM delaing with problems everytime but why do you close your eyes to this matter ? this is a GAME ! saying that settling this matter yourself may be not as easy as it sounds for there are no legal action you can take to prevent that. players do what they wanna do and there isnt a sinlge thing you can do about it ! you say settle this matter yourself, then at least be decent enough to provide assistance as to how to do that. i am not flmaing or trolling, i am just saying it like it is. its sad (\_/) (O.o) (> <)
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.08 22:04:00 - [78] Quote: I think the GM's have made this case clear.... They have said no exploit was used and this is a legitimate corp theft, therfore if only Heff and one other have access and it wasn't Heff....... Heff knows the score, so it is up to him what to do next. If it was me it would be a bit of a real life re-evaluation If that is the case then both players should petition to have their names cleared to each other - surely the GMs would be willing to do that. If one of the two players refuses to do this then massive alarm bells must sound. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Kalar Vrask	Posted - 2003.10.08 22:10:00 - [79] Heff, I deeply sympathise with you. This is a disgusting feature of the game that a single person can run off with an entire corps work, and there is effectively nothing the corp can do about it. Furthermore, CCP WON'T do anything about it, even worse. I may have information leading to the alt of the person who has the prints, please convo me ingame for that info. Kalar Vrask, The Elite
The Daddy	Posted - 2003.10.08 22:19:00 - [80] Athule, I think your idea is a good one. If both parties are innocent, then it is NOT a valid game mechanic, if not.......... Di! Ecce hora! Uxor mea me necabit!
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.09 00:50:00 - [81] Quote: "Can't put it any clearer than that. Heff, looks like you have a thief amongst your crew." ... 'Tis worse than that; if it's like GMs say, that in this particular case the person who has the BPs now obtained them through granted access rights with no exploit whatsoever... then Mr.Heff already knows who it is... and although it means nothing, am really sorry something like that has happened. :/ Read the CSM, it goes even further. No doubt after those words. No exploit, and the BPs are in his/her alt. I don't know what is worse. But I'll let you complete this phrase. BTW, I sympathise with you Heff. In 2 corps I've been, I was a victim of theft. In the first one, unfortunately, there were no security options, so basically, stealing stuff was rather easy. _______________________________________________
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.09 00:52:00 - [82] Quote: Or better yet if they have known each other 10 years they should be able to trust each other with the Login and password of each other's accounts. My core members are my Best Friends in RL I have thier L/p's and they have mine. That is how I was able to find the issue that we had and track the person that had our bp from the mistake that was made. I don't know if this is the way it uses to be because I work primarily with IT security, but I would never give my password to anyone, nor my son or even my wife. It's not a matter of trust, I think it's a matter of habit. _______________________________________________
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:24:00 - [83] Yeah if you've known the guy for a long time and trust him it's pretty easy to prove neither of you stole it by providing eachother with username/password and checking eachother's wallets. Although this might be against the EULA =/ Sad though what greed will do to people, especially when it makes a 10 year friend steal virtual items from you, that's just sad =/
Livak	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:28:00 - [84] I don't understand why the GM's can't just say the prints were stolen from the secure hanger. Saying they were stolen by legitmate means is dancing around the question. I want it answered in black and white. Were the prints stolen from the hanger they were originally installed into the research slot from? Yes/No That is all I need to know. I don't care if the view it as "legitimate", if the answer is no, it means factory and research slots are not secure if someone has view access.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:39:00 - [85] Edited by: Heff on 09/10/2003 04:44:56 OK, this is it. This will blow this wide open. My buddy/CEO Dora did not steal the blueprints and neither did I. It has to be a loophole in the game mechanics and I will tell you why: Let me give CCP the benefit of the doubt. Let us assume that this was a valid theft. Let us say that the thief had access to our secure hangar. Why then are the only items that are missing the items that were just in the lab? We have many many valuable things in our secure hangar and anyone who had access to it would surely haven taken everything else. We could assume this thief was a genius and assume he only took those items that were recently in the lab so he could blame a potential lab bug. But I doubt that happenned and honestly it does not matter. If CCP is saying that we had a legitmate thief, he would have needed access to the secure hangar. If so, he would still have access rights now. Nobody, not even a director, can take away his own access to a hangar. Try it yourself. Even if our thief was a director and could take things out of the secure hangar, he couldnÆt turn off his directorÆs rights. What IÆm saying is, there is no way a thief could cover his own tracks. If a thief had access to our secure hangar, he would still have it and we would see that. If the thief was a director and ripped us off, he would still be a director and we would see that. The fact that you cannot remove your own hangar access or directorÆs rights means we should see a smoking gun. IÆm sorry CCP, you are wrong here. If we had a legitimate thief in the corp who ever had secure access rights or directorÆs rights, he would still have them... he couldnÆt possibly cover his tracks and take them away from himself. Try it yourself. In the end, somehow our BPs left the corp; that much is clear. But nobody should have been able to get the BPs out of their secure hangar legitimately for the reasons I stated above without us knowing who it was -- and it wasn't Dora or I. This MUST be a loophole in the game mechanics (or a bug if you want to call it that). Heff
Kalki Nibiru	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:47:00 - [86] Heff, you should log on to chaos and re-create the loophole with someone, and prove it once and for all to CCP that through no fault of your own, you lost these blueprints. I am under the impression that CCP belives that there is/was no loophole, so you should be able to prove your point on chaos just fine. Hope everything works out for you. Taken from the May 29th 2003 Devchat at EveGate . <Muaddid> Q: When will sentry gun and station and similar construction pods be introduced on the market? <Hellmar> we have various player owned entities already implemented. Sentry guns, power/shield generators, field repair mini-stations, mobile refineries. We are still working out the last tidbits of how they can be over taken, what is the penalty of having a sentry gun kill a n00b etc. and we have been a bit busy with plugging the holes that people have found.I would say that you'd start to see these items on the market in about 2-3 weeks, very expensive to begin with
Cruise	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:50:00 - [87] Okay I'm confused. With all the hooplah about this particular situation being even involved in the CSM logs WHY haven't CCP put this matter right. Here's some nifty quotes from the CSM log: "TomB> It is a known issue and a fix is being worked on" What known issue? If there's no bug, as was firmly stated by the GM's, then why is something needing to be fixed? WHAT'S being fixed? That statement only fans the flames in my opinion. And no, that statement was not taken out of context, people. "Pann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly" Okay that statement was made during the CSM convo on 08/10/2003. It's been some time now since that CSM chat was completed and Heff just posted again. WHY haven't the involved parties (Heff being one of them) been contacted yet?!? You're dragging out a painful situation here CCP and it sucks. Show some compassion and for Chrissake TELL the man what you know as you alluded you would and NOT when it's convenient to you! ------------------------------------------- Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.09 01:52:00 - [88] Quote: Edited by: Heff on 09/10/2003 01:43:45 OK, this is it. This will blow this wide open. My buddy did not steal the blueprints and neither did I. It has to be a loophole in the game mechanics and I will tell you why: Let me give CCP the benefit of the doubt. Let us assume that this was a valid theft. Let us say that the thief had access to our secure hangar. Why then are the only items that are missing the items that were just in the lab? We have many many valuable things in our secure hangar and anyone who had access to it would surely haven taken everything else. We could assume this thief was a genius and assume he only took those items that were recently in the lab so he could blame a potential lab bug. But I doubt that happenned and honestly it does not matter. If CCP is saying that we had a legitmate thief, he would have needed access to the secure hangar. If so, he would still have that access right now. Nobody, not even a director, can take away his own access to a hangar. Try it yourself. Even if our thief was a director and could take things out of the secure hangar, he couldnÆt turn off his directorÆs right. What IÆm saying is, there is no way a thief could cover his own tracks. If a thief had access to our secure hangar, he would still have it and we would see that. If the thief was a director and ripped us off, he would still be a director and we would see that. The fact that you cannot remove your own hangar access or directorÆs rights means we should see a smoking gun. IÆm sorry CCP, you are wrong here. If we had a legitimate thief in the corp who ever had secure assess rights or directorÆs rights, he would still have them... he couldnÆt possibly cover his tracks and take them away from himself. Try it yourself. In the end, someone in our corp purposely harmed us, that much is clear. But nobody should have been able to do that and gotten away with it for the reasons I stated above. This MUST be a loophole in the game machanics (or a bug if you want to call it that). Heff Heff will you login and drop me a message you blighter? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.09 02:07:00 - [89] It's going to be interesting if that bug report filled by what-their-name from Techel will make the GMs rethink their words on it being a legitimate theft. If in fact those BPs were stolen right from the secure hangers, then it was either Heff's character ot Dora's (sp). Now I'm not saying either player are to blame, but if someone else got access to their account information and logged in as them and removed it, then in CCP's eyes it was a legitimate theft since 1 of the 2 characters w/ access DID in fact steal them, although it wasn't in fact that player who was in control of thier character. Hint to GM's, check IP address of the offending person and see if it matches logs of the normal IP of the person who is on that acount 99.9999% of the time. I sure as hell hope your log-in server keeps those records.
PERCYDAMAN	Posted - 2003.10.09 02:25:00 - [90] CCP saying that someone from inside corp did this because they can show that only 2 people had access to that hangar proves nothing! Or I should say that if anything, it might prove that someone indeed got the bp's from the bp eject bug. If it happened from a bug then whos to say that CCP's methods of tracking those kind of issues aren't borked as well???
Sinsemillia	Posted - 2003.10.09 02:26:00 - [91] Quote: Yeah if you've known the guy for a long time and trust him it's pretty easy to prove neither of you stole it by providing eachother with username/password and checking eachother's wallets. Although this might be against the EULA =/ So is account sharing/logging into others account against the EULA? If so surely that means... Quote: GM - I would believe them on this they did prove to me that my problem with our bp was not a bug, but I have log in access to all the core members that have access to that hanger and was able to go through the journal to find where the problem was. But even knowing that there is a valid bug that I have tested that you can remove a bp from a secure hanger and no one would ever know. We are changing our security measures to compensate for this exploitable bug, until I get a response on my bug report that I placed today. I will not list the details because of the possible expliot. But if your bp's are in your personal hanger this cannot happen. No better evidence than self confession..... A proud member of the Concord Waste Recovery Team
Sinsemillia	Posted - 2003.10.09 02:30:00 - [92] Taken from the EULA 2. YOUR ACCOUNTØ Ø You may establish only one (1) account for each copy of the Software licensed. If you wish to establish another Account, you must obtain another license for the Software (you may be able to do this by purchasing another boxed version of the Software).Ø Ø A. Establishing a New AccountØ Ø When it is first run, the Software will prompt you to register a new Account online. Upon establishing a new Account, you will be entitled to play EVEÖ for thirty (30) days without paying the subscription fee (the "Trial Period"). If your Account is not terminated in accordance with the procedures set forth below within that thirty (30) day period, you will be charged the subscription fees as described during the registration process when you established your Account.Ø Ø Only an individual, natural person who is an adult or, in the discretion of such an adult, his or her minor child, may establish an Account. You are responsible and liable for all activities conducted through your Account, regardless of who conducts those activities.Ø Ø You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited.Ø Ø Accounts may not be used for business purposes. Access to the System and playing EVEÖ is intended for your personal entertainment, enjoyment and recreation, and not for corporate, business, commercial or income-seeking activities. Business entities and anyone who is acting for or on behalf of a business or for business purposes may not establish an Account, access the System or play EVEÖ. Accessing the System or using the Game for commercial, business or income-seeking purposes is strictly prohibited.Ø So what do the GM's plan to do about this? A proud member of the Concord Waste Recovery Team
Singular	Posted - 2003.10.09 03:11:00 - [93] Quote: Just to set the record straight, this is not a bug. We can't name any names, but the corp in question should really look within their own ranks for the culprit. We know exactly where the blueprints are at this moment, and they did not just vanish Some people should need an internet liscense to be aloud to post. Im Yo Huckleberreh
PaulAtreides	Posted - 2003.10.09 03:17:00 - [94] Playboy was the perfect corp! It is a shame to see a whole corp get ruined due to this. Neither one of the people with read / right access to the blueprints would possibly ever consider giving them away. It's inconcievable. If you know Heff or Dora at all you will know what I mean. They are top class people!! Personaly: I fell in love with the idea of Eve the second I heard about it...It's a pity the GM's of CCP can't admit to a bug. TomB is the man though: Quote: TomB> It is a known issue and a fix is being worked on. They need to sort this out! This is unacceptable! Want to work for me?
Crunch Freeman	Posted - 2003.10.09 04:40:00 - [95] Some of you people need to re read the CSM chat again. You keep quoting TomB and attributing it to this situation. You have taken this quote completely out of context. ôTomB> It is a known issue and a fix is being worked onö This quote you keep using is actually an answer to EzTargetÆs question ôEzTarget> I've been reading the forums while in this CSM meeting, and I've noticed that some people are having problems with BP's not ejecting correctly (into another corps's hanger in one case) when they are part way though a research and the lease runs out. Is there any official word on how this will be fixed?ö Then TomB answered with the above quote. Pann then asked if EZÆs question had been answered and TomB said yes. Seeing that a GM said it was one of the two who has access to the slot and that one of the two had taken them and transferred them to an alt it is clear that the question EzTarget asked has no relation to this problem. Get it right people before you start misquoting people and starting a wildfire of protest by taking the answer from one question and attributing to another. ôPann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly.ö I feel sorry that this has happened to playboy and think the GMÆs need to make their logs pertaining to this incident available to Heff so he can see exactly what happened, but you people who misquote are not helping this matter, only making it worse.
Cruise	Posted - 2003.10.09 05:14:00 - [96] Okay, just to get the story straight here: "Jash Illian> Okay, today a rather large scale corp theft made news. Large numbers of Playboy Enterprises may be leaving shortly as some of their top blueprints went MIA. According to GM Ender it is an internal matter, but Heff would still like to know the details of what happened. "Jash Illian> And I'd like to know if I'm missing something as I've never been able to track hangar/slot usage "Pann> Let me contact Ender for a response. EZ, go ahead with your question while I do that. "Jash Illian> which would be critical to 'investigating in-house' as GM Ender suggested "EzTarget> I've been reading the forums while in this CSM meeting, and I've noticed that some people are having problems with BP's not ejecting correctly (into another corps's hanger in one case) when they are part way though a research and the lease runs out. Is there any offical word on how this will be fixed? "EzTarget> And I've just asked the same Q as Jash, nice one there lol "EzTarget> /emoteBangs head on nearby brick wall.... "Roulette> ! "Jash Illian> not the same question Ez "Latta> I would like to go a bit off topic and suggest we (non-ccp) meet a day or 2 hours before to discuss our questions and issues "Latta> discuss this afterwards "EzTarget> it is, I was reading the playboy posts while I wrote that up, Heff's not happy and another Playboy char is asking about selling his/her acount on e-bay because of it.... "Latta> it worries me too "Vegeta> /emoteknows how it was done, and it IS an exploit "TomB> It is a known issue and a fix is being worked on "Pann> Ack! How embarassing. My node dropped. blush "Pann> Was EZ's question answered? "TomB> yes "Pann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly." Okay, there's the section I was referring to, perhaps in too condensed a fashion beforehand, my apologies for any misconstruance. In my reading of this I note that EzTarget mentioned his question AND Jash's BOTH dealt specifically with the situation Heff's been facing, Ez specifiying more in detail the alleged bug with BP's and corp hangars. Tom appeared to have addressed only the known bug issue, a first that I've seen from them on the acknowledgement that the bug is known to them. It took a week of waiting before Heff brought all of this to light in the forums, since CCP didn't seem to be doing much about it at their end. I can understand that would be damned frustrating, considering the impact that would have on the corp. A week while rumours and heated speculation must have been rife in Heff's corp. CCP had the logs and only when it became a heated issue in the forums did Heff get any real response from CCP. Who can blame him for being dissillusioned about the matter, particularly when he had NO answers at the CEO level and a possible bug that could explain things, but STILL CCP refused to clue him in. Result: Lost players and a lot of negative fallout in how CCP handled this. ------------------------------------------- Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
GraveDigger	Posted - 2003.10.09 05:17:00 - [97] Edited by: GraveDigger on 09/10/2003 05:24:04
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.09 05:22:00 - [98] "It took a week of waiting before Heff brought all of this to light in the forums, since CCP didn't seem to be doing much about it at their end. " This is the part that worries me the most out of all of this. When billions of isk worth of blueprints disappear with no way for the CEO to track them there should be a faster response from CCP, hell it should get resolved in a day not a week.
Lucas De'Thal	Posted - 2003.10.09 05:56:00 - [99] so in the end it was Heff's 10 year friend that ganked him? think he needs to head on over and start the whoop azz on his friend then. why would he do it? he was bored or was planning to ebay it maybe? conspiracy's are always fun. ______________________________________________ Hellmar > sorry for the attitude, playing a n00b character through the current state just left me a bit bitter dev chat: Mar 18, 2004 hellmar> "you lot are just so clever you have a good history for out smarting us :-S " dev chat: Feb 12, 2004
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.09 06:07:00 - [100] Edited by: Dora on 09/10/2003 06:11:40 If I am "the other guy" CCP is referring to, I can assure you that I did not steal blueprints from my own corp. CCP, you have my permission to tattle on me if I am the one who did this. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.09 06:10:00 - [101] Quote: If I am "the other guy" CCP is referring to, I can assure you that I did not steal blueprints from my own corp. CCP, you have my permission to tattle on me if I am the one who did this. ... and CCP has my permission to tattle on me if I was the one who stole from teh corp. Now that the CEO and President have come clean, let's dismiss the idea that either of us did this. The "other guy" stuff does not fly.
Elwir	Posted - 2003.10.09 06:14:00 - [102] Omg this is like a frazzing soap.... Will the gm's pls just let us know so I can stop lurking to find out the end Hope it all gets straightened out for you corp though ...thats a major hit.
Exel Aurora	Posted - 2003.10.09 06:22:00 - [103] Quote: Edited by: Heff on 09/10/2003 04:44:56 Let me give CCP the benefit of the doubt. Let us assume that this was a valid theft. Let us say that the thief had access to our secure hangar. Why then are the only items that are missing the items that were just in the lab? We have many many valuable things in our secure hangar and anyone who had access to it would surely haven taken everything else. We could assume this thief was a genius and assume he only took those items that were recently in the lab so he could blame a potential lab bug. But I doubt that happenned and honestly it does not matter. If CCP is saying that we had a legitmate thief, he would have needed access to the secure hangar. If so, he would still have access rights now. Nobody, not even a director, can take away his own access to a hangar. Try it yourself. Even if our thief was a director and could take things out of the secure hangar, he couldnÆt turn off his directorÆs rights. What IÆm saying is, there is no way a thief could cover his own tracks. If a thief had access to our secure hangar, he would still have it and we would see that. If the thief was a director and ripped us off, he would still be a director and we would see that. The fact that you cannot remove your own hangar access or directorÆs rights means we should see a smoking gun. IÆm sorry CCP, you are wrong here. If we had a legitimate thief in the corp who ever had secure access rights or directorÆs rights, he would still have them... he couldnÆt possibly cover his tracks and take them away from himself. Try it yourself. In the end, somehow our BPs left the corp; that much is clear. But nobody should have been able to get the BPs out of their secure hangar legitimately for the reasons I stated above without us knowing who it was -- and it wasn't Dora or I. This MUST be a loophole in the game mechanics (or a bug if you want to call it that). Heff Well. here's what I would do Heff. I would send in an application with my alt. Give him access to the hangar or give him personnel manager rights. Then, either have the alt steal it or use the main char, steal the blueprints, quit the corp and rejoin it. Viola, you've removed your access rights. Only the CEO gets the application and resignation evemail and if the CEO's evemail box is full, Dora may not have received it. So, you can remove your own access rights. Just have to be creative.
Vaniq	Posted - 2003.10.09 06:44:00 - [104] So THIS is where most of my old Synergy buddies wound up? I've been searching the galaxy for yas. :) fwiw, Heff, I hope you find resolution to this without having to leave a game you obviously enjoyed. Understand though that the customer service may not be entirely lacking, as SWAMPED. I know, they can take an hour to resolve a problem and everyone would be happy... but seriously, there's 1000's of people saying the same thing because their container poofed with 27000 ores in it. :) I feel your pain. I hope you see it through. And to me ol Synergy amigo's, hola. I am back! (finally)
Fedaykin Naib	Posted - 2003.10.09 06:52:00 - [105] As just a guy reading the forums it looks like the people from CCP said that from what there logs have told them that it was your friend that did it man. That sucks. Guess u cant know who to really trust "Long Live the Fighters!" "The weak come and go with time. The strong have remained" - v ger
Jack Ryan	Posted - 2003.10.09 07:49:00 - [106] The way I see it, there's three options : 1. It's a bug, and people with view access have been able to obtain the BP's 2. Dora or Heff are lying (unlikely) 3. Dora and/or Heffs login/pwd combination have been guessed.
HC CEO	Posted - 2003.10.09 08:32:00 - [107] What we know, * CCP said that they KNOW exactly where the BPs are. * CCP said that only two people had access to the BPs like Heff said. * CCP said that Heff's friend took them and moved them to his or her alt char. Thats it! Either Dora has it (or had it in his or her alts) OR CCP is not telling the truth. Why on earth would CCP make this up? I'll be interested to see how this finished up.
Siin Wu	Posted - 2003.10.09 09:52:00 - [108] Ok... CCP has really maked things screwedup this time and even indirectly kicked there own players away and out of eve. if Heff and co. leaves eve. I will do so myself if it was the case. But from experience i have had with GM's and CCP i have found out that there is only for now 2 GM's and 1 CCP guy(s) that have the brain and understanding to find out about thinks such as bugs in eve. I have many GM's name and many CCP names that has the same value as a plain 0. They either cant do anything because of CCP stupidity or those others are simply to dumb to be GM's and CCP-"gamemaster" ... gamemaster lol cant even make the bugs dubblicated and fix them. And yes i have found a way for a player with only rights to look and not take in a hanger to get the BP's out so get your heads out of your asses or i will just simpley play stupid GM in the forum and post the exploite right here though funny enough it dont always work but its working atm 50/50. Be for once CCP smart and help Heff here to get what is a damn bug his BP's back. I have been testing it and will give an exploite report IF Heff gets his BP's back. If not figure it out your self then if you ppl are so clewer as you say you are. Fear is the path to the dark side! Fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate leads to suffering.
Ricardus	Posted - 2003.10.09 10:08:00 - [109] Hurmm... stuff like this is troublesome... i mean, adults usually play games to have fun and take a break from Real Live stuff... ...but if a game makes ya start suspecting EVERYBODY (even a 10 year RL friend) everytime... then what is the point of the Game? Often RL has enough of those elements, no need to bring it to a game. Personaly i've invested a bit of my time to aquire my BShips and since my immediate goal was met, i'm left with 2 choices... either Quit... or help the corp raise its funds and stock of ores for when Player Stations are introduced in game... ...on other hand, that involves alot of trusting in others (a feeling that EVE is clearly changing by each Episode of "Corporate Thieve", even though it does not directly affect us it still lowers everybody's trust ratings) for someone to dedicate their time helping with. Soooo whats the point of Corporations if u can't trust anyone in fear of your hard work will endup stolen by a lowlife?? Is playing a Solo guy the only way one can feel safe from Corp Thieves?? Since its so easy to steal from Corps on this game and there is absolutelly no punishment for it (actually its a nice reward since the thief gets richer by some thousands or billions percent after a robbery), its obvious that the number of dedicated Corp Thieves will only increase since it seems the best way to get rich instead of mining non-stop. Somehow i think CCP is really giving the WRONG message to game users... ...or this will become a "How fast can u Scam/Ripoff yer corp to fortune?!?" kind of game. CCP really needs to change its "Corporation Robbery" policy...
Cypheed Zeona	Posted - 2003.10.09 11:40:00 - [110] "I was working as an engineer for 3 guys, handled the CEO's blueprints, making - refinning etc. In the end when my job was complete, I got screwed, the advantage I have now is simple, I have access to the prints, currently making, and I am going to undercut the ceo's prices like nobody's business, i personally think that its better than declaring war or anything (id rather you font ask for the details) that and the fact that they practically stole everything from me, so i got them back, gonna build till the damn copies run out, they planned on scamming me, which they did but the forgot to turn off my access" I thought this was suspicious but may be an unrelated BP event.
Ivana Killya	Posted - 2003.10.09 12:16:00 - [111] Heff i hope you get this sorted soon ! as an idea get all ur corp 2 post as dora has 2 tell if its them, the ones that anit happy about doing so may have somthing 2 hide ! also heff i have somthing i would like 2 talk 2 u about,iam not on much latly coz of work so eve mail me! not going 2 post it here p.s dora well done 4 posting ! why would dora post saying tell if it was him!! u all jumped on him 4 with no proof ! i could b wrong
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.09 13:01:00 - [112] It is plain and simple, only I and Heff have access to the hanger where the BP's were to be ejected. All three of each of our characters are in the corp, so we can't have transferred them to an alt. See repost from dev chat: "Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. " -support appears to be non existent at this phase... Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
EvilEric	Posted - 2003.10.09 13:09:00 - [113] Heff, Deepest sympathies for your loss. I hope CCP get the thumbs out of thier arse on this one. I for one will be monitoring this situation VERY closely so keep us informed PLEASE!!!. Gms, IF you read this: How come a TomB can admit this as a known bug then the GM's claim there isn't one? Who would know more? The Devs I suspect.
Nirvy	Posted - 2003.10.09 13:24:00 - [114] This is a very sad thread to read, i can only imagine what losing those BP's is like. The fact CCP treat corp theft through this bug as some kind of feature is appalling in my eyes. Mercenary \| The Azath
Pars	Posted - 2003.10.09 13:32:00 - [115] Edited by: Pars on 09/10/2003 13:35:28 This game is slowly loosing it. just look at the player peeks they are obvious. I would also like to blame their publisher since they should give CCP better guidlines. Ive given this game the 3 months it deserved to fix the big bugs and still there are bugs and there is a huge lack of content. To devs. and managers, either decide to invest in this game or give it up.
Livak	Posted - 2003.10.09 13:34:00 - [116] Getting an answer from CCP is like trying to extract an answer from a wiley politician. Despite having been asked on numerous occasions they still haven't answered the mother of all questions. Was the BP ejected into the SAME hanger that it was installed from, and stolen from that hanger? It's irrelevant that an alt of someone in the corp has the blueprints. We need the answer to the above question. I know for a fact that research slots just a bit over a week ago kicked out prints and claimed the slot wasn't being used. Fortunatly for me, I keep my corps battleship bluprints in a personal hanger. In any case I think the player community deserves the answer to the above question.
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.09 13:50:00 - [117] It wouldn't have been so bad if the support wasn't so lousy. The first week we kept getting answers to our petitions like "Who's BP's are they" "Did you really own them" "Where did you say they were?" "Who's BP's are they" "What color is your underwear?" The second week, all of our petitions get closed without resolution with some terse response. Literally leaving us zero recourse. THIS IS INTOLERABLE! Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Tecnopagan	Posted - 2003.10.09 14:21:00 - [118] I,m rather shocked this thread has not been locked. Not that there is anything wrong with the content, but it seems when it gets too contreversial then they get locked. Heff if you were named Larry Flynt I would guess this was a publicity stunt or a scam, but since you are not all I can do is offer up my sympathy. I am a huge fan of corporate thievery and espionage because I think it ultimately makes the game far more interesting. Thievery due to faulty game mechanics is just flat disgusting however. I do not think the csm last night was very helpful on the issue it seems it has just gotten more and more confused. I hope they straighten it out and quickly. I think the bottomline here is the fact that Customer Service sucks. The only other mmorpg I have played was Earth and Beyond and I am very glad to be rid of that game.. Their CS was acceptable except for their bugged quests. The responses when quest issue came up were unacceptable and now looking back I realize they just didn't have a clue about the game. I hope the GM's are required to play this game and if they do not they should get another job. I am saddened at the fact the CS questions at the csm have been disregarded. I loved the question asked by the 'reporter' guy. Customer Service will have to come on board here soon or the game will suffer. I am very interested to see what happens in regards to this case. Customer Service seems to be very picky in regards to who it helps, but this is such a high profile case it will set the tone for the year to come. I for one hope they learn to bend a bit more and understand that the players deserve a bit more respect. If it was a clear cut crime of someone having access and taking the items I am glad that ccp will not divulge the thief, but the 'bug' potential is too huge not to look at it. good luck
Jade Constantine	Posted - 2003.10.09 14:25:00 - [119] Seems straightforward to me; in this thread Vegeta says there is a bug that allows someone without the proper access to take Blueprints from the lab. This should be verifiable as a matter of priority for the CCP support team. If the bug exists and if this is how the "alt" thief stole the Playboy blueprints then the blueprints should be returned to Heff and Dora immediately, and the thief should be warned about using the exploit. CCP should categorise this exploit as a potential banning offence and put a fix out as soon as possible. Clearly this is a corp critical issue and must be addressed immediately. Its rank stupidity to let this kind of thing drive corporations from the game. Heff and Dora and the other decent Playboy players are good people who bring interest and content to the game. Fair play is fair play, but sometimes you have to give the benefit of the doubt to people who are good for the game over the interests of skulking corp thiefs. CCP acknowledge that the security controls for corps are not finished, and a not appropriate to the task at hand. (item tracking for example is non-existent). This being the case they should tend to decide in favour of honest players because they haven't yet provided the tools we need to secure the corporations properly. I seriously feel for Heff and Dora; if they are the only people with access and CCP are telling them one of the two longterm friends is a thief because they haven't been able to acknowledge the potential bug/exploit, then this is a very bad thing. I say it needs investigating fully and immediately ... and if it is discovered that a bug/exploit allowed the theft to be committed by someone other than Heff/Dora and without the appropriate security rights ... then clearly CCP should apologise to the pair for making a painful situation even worse by implying that one of two was betraying their rl friend. I want Playboy to stay in the game. That means this issue needs resolving now. Love and peace JF Public Forum
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.09 14:27:00 - [120] Heff & Dora, if I were you, I'd try to find someone in-game who is on a working relationship with one of the developers. GMs obviously don't know how to address this problem, and you need to speak to TomB or someone.
nails	Posted - 2003.10.09 14:40:00 - [121] Edited by: nails on 09/10/2003 14:41:00 Also note, that because of another bug, specifically not being able to see member hangers, that takes away any kind of investigation process away from the members. From what I am reading from the GM's post it looks like he is trying to point out that a member of Playboy stole the prints in one way or another, and won't come forward. I'm not sure if anyone has left Playboy after the accident, if so then that's a good pointer to the person who did it, if not, then checking member hangers would be a quick way of finding out (unless they were put into a cargo container). Of course because the security officer role is also bugged, it takes yet another tool away from the corporations for investigation into their own corp. I think their needs to be less blame on Playboy, and direct point by the GMs to the person that took the prints. None of the members from Playboy can force this player to give the prints back anyway. For peace of mind though, plus CCP is looking at loosing an entire corporation because of this incident. ------------------ http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
Gigi Ana	Posted - 2003.10.09 14:45:00 - [122] Quote: *Written by Exel Aurora:* Well. here's what I would do Heff. I would send in an application with my alt. Give him access to the hangar or give him personnel manager rights. Then, either have the alt steal it or use the main char, steal the blueprints, quit the corp and rejoin it. Viola, you've removed your access rights. Only the CEO gets the application and resignation evemail and if the CEO's evemail box is full, Dora may not have received it. So, you can remove your own access rights. Just have to be creative. And if I start a corporation, I want you in charge of security ... you have the right mindset for it! ~Gigi~
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.09 14:50:00 - [123] There are a couple issues here that I see. First there's the lack of communications between the front line support (Polaris and GM Staff) and the people capable of resolving the issue: CCP. I do believe CCP has far more logs availible that people think. And I almost positive the GMs do not have direct access to all of them. Because of this, the issue has to be resolved at the developer level and that's where communications broke down: escalating the matter to the developer level. That's why 2 weeks have passed on this matter. From my past, people will know I'm no Pann Fan. But in this particular situation I say give her the time she askes for to investigate the immediate problem: the disappearance of the blueprints. The next issue, and the issue that is equally important, is the lack of player accessible auditing tools for tracking the usage of corp resources. My audit logs for my corp members show 1 thing: The last time I changed their access levels. In this specific situation the issue is the word of a person that Heff has never met versus the word of a person he has known for a long time. While friends going bad does happen all the time, no sensible person would accept such a claim without supporting evidence. Corporations are supposed to have auditing ability. I've yet to find such tools. I cannot tell who used a corp factory. I cannot tell who used a laboratory. I cannot tell who may have used corp minerals. I cannot tell who may have removed something from a corp hangar nor what they removed. GM Ender's said in his post he does not understand why people claim bug before investigating internally. BECAUSE WE CAN'T. And it's far more credible that a piece of software that has shown itself to have several bugs to be at fault than it is to believe someone you know has backstabbed you without any prior indication. The corp auditing features are a critical matter. As is the tracking of stolen property, which is supposed to be a feature in Eve. If such audit tools existed, as they should, Heff & Dora could easily see who stopped the current research. They could easily see where the blueprint was removed from and by who. They would not have some anonymous rendered face telling them "one of you is a thief". And we'd not have this mess on the forums. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
DB Preacher	Posted - 2003.10.09 14:57:00 - [124] Edited by: DB Preacher on 09/10/2003 14:58:58 Quote: There are a couple issues here that I see. First there's the lack of communications between the front line support (Polaris and GM Staff) and the people capable of resolving the issue: CCP. I do believe CCP has far more logs availible that people think. And I almost positive the GMs do not have direct access to all of them. Because of this, the issue has to be resolved at the developer level and that's where communications broke down: escalating the matter to the developer level. That's why 2 weeks have passed on this matter. From my past, people will know I'm no Pann Fan. But in this particular situation I say give her the time she askes for to investigate the immediate problem: the disappearance of the blueprints. The next issue, and the issue that is equally important, is the lack of player accessible auditing tools for tracking the usage of corp resources. My audit logs for my corp members show 1 thing: The last time I changed their access levels. In this specific situation the issue is the word of a person that Heff has never met versus the word of a person he has known for a long time. While friends going bad does happen all the time, no sensible person would accept such a claim without supporting evidence. Corporations are supposed to have auditing ability. I've yet to find such tools. I cannot tell who used a corp factory. I cannot tell who used a laboratory. I cannot tell who may have used corp minerals. I cannot tell who may have removed something from a corp hangar nor what they removed. GM Ender's said in his post he does not understand why people claim bug before investigating internally. BECAUSE WE CAN'T. And it's far more credible that a piece of software that has shown itself to have several bugs to be at fault than it is to believe someone you know has backstabbed you without any prior indication. The corp auditing features are a critical matter. As is the tracking of stolen property, which is supposed to be a feature in Eve. If such audit tools existed, as they should, Heff & Dora could easily see who stopped the current research. They could easily see where the blueprint was removed from and by who. They would not have some anonymous rendered face telling them "one of you is a thief". And we'd not have this mess on the forums. Well Stated Jash. I agree completely that there should be more corp auditing tools for CEO's, currently it is easy to steal from corps without any hassle at all. Personally, I think this is one time when CCP should stand up and be counted rather than burying their heads in the sand. I know they have avoided a lot of hassle through this policy, but when all the playerbase is in agreement that this is a rubbish thing that has happened to Heff, they should take note. If this does turn out to be a bug when CCP has basically said that Heff is lying and that there is no bug, then it could be severly problematic for them. Oh, and since Ender said that it was one of the two people with access and BOTH Heff and Dora have stated that they are happy for CCP to name them if it was them, then why haven't they done so? Current RKK Ranking: (CAL4) Soldier Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
Gileaud	Posted - 2003.10.09 15:36:00 - [125]
Gileaud	Posted - 2003.10.09 15:36:00 - [126] I have them Heff.
Halo Jones	Posted - 2003.10.09 15:46:00 - [127] Could be that the senior GM was acting on second hand and incorrect information, and the bluprints lie with a third party who 'somehow' had access. Or could be that one of heff and dora have it, unlikely they would lie so vehermently. Finally, and most probably due to factory operations working quite differently to research slots, allowing u to drop items anywhere, and allow view access to cancel ongoing jobs. If it's the second, Gms should name the person, if its the first, then bad luck, if its the third...... adjust factories so they output the original where it was taken from. Oberon Incorporated.
Temujin Destovai	Posted - 2003.10.09 15:52:00 - [128] Ya as said in Vegeta's thread there is currently a bug/oversight in the Code that allows people with View access to remove things from secure hangers by employing a loophole. This is obviously an exploit, and CCP should reimburse the blueprints. Its as easy as that. The Chronicles of Xanadu
HighBirdDeuce	Posted - 2003.10.09 16:29:00 - [129] It is bad enough to have the BP's removed from all our corp members, but to have an obvious bug is intolerable. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm HighBirdDeuce Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: [email protected]
Halo Jones	Posted - 2003.10.09 16:31:00 - [130] Quote: ...... This is obviously an exploit, and CCP should reimburse the blueprints. Its as easy as that. Thats if this is what has actually occurred, looking at the csm log, and the psting by Pann of what [GM]Ender thought of ths situation, this is not what occurred. I think sicne CCP have disclosed information to some degree in this matter, they should now investigate fully, and tell the community of this 'Example Case' and just what has occurred. As Heff and Dora both seem happy to have this aired in public, it can only help the community, both with information and 'ingame help' ! Oberon Incorporated.
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.09 16:59:00 - [131] In Vegeta's post about the current lab bug, Nail's had posted the details of the issue and it then got that original text removed and replaced with: "Don't post exploits! -Jehova" Is that not an admittance to there being a problem with the current way things are run? Or is Jehova just covering his/her butt in case it ends up being found an exploit and the details spread all over the forums?
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.09 17:07:00 - [132] Edited by: j0sephine on 09/10/2003 17:07:30 "Is that not an admittance to there being a problem with the current way things are run? Or is Jehova just covering his/her butt in case it ends up being found an exploit and the details spread all over the forums?" ... They are simply trying to prevent situation where every monkey with necessary access rights steals BPs of their corporation and runs away in the night.
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.09 17:21:00 - [133] Dev communication in this game is simply atrocious. Take a look over at www.halflife2.net's boards and go to the thread "info from valve ONLY", what you see there, that's communication. I've got 1 month left on my sub, then I'm not coming back, this is simply getting rediculous.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.09 17:27:00 - [134] Edited by: Heff on 09/10/2003 17:28:52 Quote: Oh, and since Ender said that it was one of the two people with access and BOTH Heff and Dora have stated that they are happy for CCP to name them if it was them, then why haven't they done so? That's exactly why we did this. For CCP to insinuate that "the other guy" did this, we offered them the ability to pubilicly release any information they have to prove it was one of us. Simple fact: it was not. Really, I am giving them everything and every opportunity to come clean with this. I am trying, as a player, to make this as easy on them as possible. That isn't even my job -- I would expect CCP to take the initiative and walk me through this. But I understand their position and respect their being overloaded with work. But this needs to end and it needs to end right here, right now. Once again, the players in Eve have been incredibly supportive. I am truly touched, humbled, and flattered by all of it. I only hope we can get through this soon so we can all step away from the burden this has been for everyone. Heff
nails	Posted - 2003.10.09 17:37:00 - [135] One simple thing has to be done to fix this problem. Seperate the Factory Manager role. Right now that role gives both factory and research access. There needs to be one for factory, and one for research. Problem solved. ------------------ http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.09 18:12:00 - [136] I think the only reason a Factory Manager gets access to Labs as well is, Labs are being considered as Factories. If you look at your corporate bills payable and KNOW you have 2 factories and 3 labs rented, yes you see 5 factories rented (example slot 2, 3, 75, 76, 77) those first 2 are REAL factories and the last 3 are Labs. So how things are currently handled with even the billing shows us that there is no distictions between the two. (hint hint dev team, fix the typo and/or rework how this is getting done).
Johnsus	Posted - 2003.10.09 18:25:00 - [137] While it sounds like CCP/GM's first response is "the other guy did it", or "what did you do wrong?", I think it's safe to say that a majority of online gamers are theives and cheaters and would do anything possible to short-cut the system and get something for free. It's no wonder the powers-that-be blame the users first. Wrong as it may be, I understand completely why. Heff and Dora sound 100% upstanding -- to us. But to GM's and CCP, they are just one of thousands of players. Unless y'all are on first-name-basis or something. :) Not saying it's right... just exposing a possible reason why you are guilty before proven innocent. Johnsus - CEO "When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.09 18:33:00 - [138] True, but that doesn't give them a reason to simply say "it was him" and then push the issue under a rug like it never happened.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.09 18:51:00 - [139] Edited by: Heff on 09/10/2003 19:09:50 Quote: True, but that doesn't give them a reason to simply say "it was him" and then push the issue under a rug like it never happened. Agreed, and I hope they do not bury this for lack of having an acceptable answer. If it was my mistake, if I somehow gave someone access to the secure hangar, I am perfectly OK with that. I will shoulder 100% of the blame for this if CCP can show me concrete evidence that it was my fault.The fact that they haven't told me anything scares me to death. It makes me feel that they don't have factual evidence of any kind and that they are trying to create some to make me go away. Please CCP, I beg you to do the right thing. if you think that this is a legitimate theft, please prove that someone had legitimate access to our secure hangar and physically moved the blueprints out of it. If I granted access to someone by mistake and they robbed us, I am to blame. If that is the case, shame on me. I am willing to walk away knowing that I was the jackass who caused this. Please help me understand how this happened, please tell me who pulled the blueprints out of hangar #5. I honestly don't think you can because I honestly don't think that happened. But please, please, please prove me wrong if you can. I am OK taking the blame, I am OK with admitting I'm wrong. I will call anyone, I will mail anyone, I will jump through 20 hoops if I have to. CCP please, it should only take a few minutes. As a person, as your client, as a betatester, as a longtime fan of Eve from before it even existed I ask you "please, please, set this straight". Heff
Singular	Posted - 2003.10.09 19:05:00 - [140] This is ending badly. Im Yo Huckleberreh
Cruise	Posted - 2003.10.09 19:15:00 - [141] Edited by: Cruise on 09/10/2003 19:17:36 It's been nearly 20 hours since the CSM logs were published. I can understand the Support group being overladened with issues, but this particular issue is getting WAY out of hand in how it's being handled...or not as the case seems to be. I would think CCP would want to get this resolved one way or another as quickly as possible, if for no other reason than to mellow out the discord on this issue in the General Forum section. They continue to astound me in their ineptitude on this issue. You have already stated the two partiess would be contacted; what's the delay? Good God, it was posted in the CSM log that they WOULD be contacted soon. Does soon mean when the CCP team best feel it suits them? If you want more people to lose faith in your abilities to handle important issues like this, keep it up. ------------------------------------------- Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
autoexec	Posted - 2003.10.09 19:32:00 - [142] Edited by: autoexec on 10/10/2003 03:40:52 Heff, you should not beg for anything. CCP and the GM's have shown no respect and no profesionalism towards Playboy, or the players of this game. Even if it is shown the theft was legit, all this situation has shown their true nature and that will never change. They have absolutly no PR skill and don't realize this will be their downfall. Worse things are bound to happen. If Playboy lost the BPs fair and square, CCP could easely prove it yet they continue to tell us the BPs were stolen, continue to contradict themselves, and take us for idiots. This only shows they do not care for what people here think. We saw 2 messages from GM's that didn't even seem to read the whole thread before replying. It is sad and pathetic. When the Tranquility server goes offline forever, it will be a good day for the MMO community. For what its worth.These views are mine and not Playboy's. -- autoexec.eve "If your enemy defeats you by deceiving you, you were conquered by your own ignorance"
nails	Posted - 2003.10.09 19:56:00 - [143] Maybe they care a little less than usual because they are going to announce bankruptcy soon. ------------------ http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
Serilla	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:03:00 - [144] Very lame. If it wasnt Heff or Dora then it must be a bug. Read access should not be able to take/move/steal a bp at all.
Lysithea	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:09:00 - [145] Edited by: Lysithea on 09/10/2003 20:12:52 At this point, CCP would have to falsify a log and grant secure access to someone in Playboy Corp to make this problem go away and ôproveö that it was HeffÆs fault. Let us hope the damage isn't so severe that only a falsified audit trail can repair it. Scary.
Gileaud	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:24:00 - [146] I told everyone I have the BP's. You are debating over an oversight by Heff. Quote: (Disgruntled Employee)
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:25:00 - [147] Edited by: Dora on 09/10/2003 20:27:12 What is worse is the eventual outcome of CCP not knowing what their left programming hand is doing and expecting blind players to guess the rules that CCP have in their head. It is pitiful that there are auditing tools that don't work, tabs that are empty and corp (now) without their valuable BPs. I feel i should apologize to all our corp members, but I would only be doing it for CCP, so, I won't. This is INTOLERABLE. FIX THIS CCP! At least do us the uncommon thing and talk to us. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
autoexec	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:29:00 - [148] Gileaud just post the oversight. This has gotten far beyond the fact that someone stole the BPs anyhow tough. -- autoexec.eve "If your enemy defeats you by deceiving you, you were conquered by your own ignorance"
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:33:00 - [149] The blueprints are no longer the issue. We have a community of gamers here who are willing to put aside their differences, who are infinitely patient, who are willing to throw money at a game that does not fully work, who cooperate with CCP in an effort to find and repair bugs, who really want this whole thing to work and CCP is letting that community self-destruct. I wouldnÆt normally admit this, but I work for one of the largest investment firms in the world. Chances are good that we manage at least some of the money in your retirement plan (if you have one). If something goes wrong, I step up, take a deep breath, swallow my pride, and take responsibility for it and I do not go home until it is fixed. That is my vow to my clients. I help manage their money, and I am responsible for their livelihoods. If something is not right, I make it right before I go to bed at night. That is my job. Perhaps this is why this whole issue is so alien to me. The global economy is in turmoil; companies are failing every day. When you have a client that wants to give you their money, you do whatever you can to keep it. Why is this issue still alive after being identified on September 30? If I allowed a problem to exist in my company for more than 48 hours, I would be unemployed. Gilleaud, this issue is much bigger than you or any role you had in it. If you have soemthing to say, say it. I really have little interest from an in-game perspecive about where the BPs actually are. It is far beyond that now. Heff
Righteous X	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:33:00 - [150] Edited by: Righteous X on 09/10/2003 20:35:02 I really dont understand why thiefs can not be punished in the world of EVE as well as they are punished in the real world. CCP and GM:s could act as judges and easily just strip the thiefs of their new belongings. There is absolutely no gain in having these persons go away unpunished. Even if it was a person with access they should be punished for taking what is not theirs. People go to jail all the time for stealing company assets. Dont make more people leave because they lost all they have worked for over several months.
Datsevlu	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:35:00 - [151] If you are so honest as to say you have Playboy's BP's just say here who you obtained them from and then the air will be clear and investigations on Playboy's side can commence. -- Datsevlu Blow'em up we'll build more. Techell's ingame site
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:39:00 - [152] There have been plenty of corporations who've lost everything they own. Playboy should not be treated differently in being given information regarding the whereabouts of their stuff. There should be logs to trace the whereabouts of corporate assets. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
autoexec	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:42:00 - [153] Whats funny is that CCP could have just said "Heff gave an access by mistake to someone" ( or whatever the oversight if its true or not ) and none of this would have happened. Yet CCP somehow, using their unexistant PR skills and their non-competent GM's, didn't do it. Now it has created so much turmoil. Btw Datselvu, i don't think he will say WHO he obtained them from or who he is ( if he's the one that stole them ), that would be foolish, altough posting HOW would be nice. <g> Maybe he enjoys and jacks off reading this thread tough and won't do it? Who knows there are strange people in this world. -- autoexec.eve "If your enemy defeats you by deceiving you, you were conquered by your own ignorance"
cold lazarus	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:45:00 - [154] Just some pointers for a lazy sod who does not wana trawl through 8 pages of debate and theory 1. Is there a record of who took the BP's? 2. How where the BP's taken? 3. Do the GM's know the person who took them? 4. Where they transfered to an alt? 5. From what i have read CCP say its an inside Job if this is the case it ought to be very easy for CCP to trace the BPs from all PB members tranferes.
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.09 20:50:00 - [155] Quote: Just some pointers for a lazy sod who does not wana trawl through 8 pages of debate and theory 1. Is there a record of who took the BP's? 2. How where the BP's taken? 3. Do the GM's know the person who took them? 4. Where they transfered to an alt? 5. From what i have read CCP say its an inside Job if this is the case it ought to be very easy for CCP to trace the BPs from all PB members tranferes. Why shoukd CCP trace the BP's? They haven't for any other corp. theft. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Halo Jones	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:10:00 - [156] Quote: The blueprints are no longer the issue......If I allowed a problem to exist in my company for more than 48 hours, I would be unemployed. Out of interest, what was the oversight, have u given specific role acces to soemone by mistake, which allowed them to gain the blueprints by normal theft methods? Or were the blueprints taken using the research/hangar system? Or do you simply not know? Oberon Incorporated.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:14:00 - [157] Quote: Out of interest, what was the oversight, have u given specific role acces to soemone by mistake, which allowed them to gain the blueprints by normal theft methods? Or were the blueprints taken using the research/hangar system? Or do you simply not know? That is the point. We don't know how the BPs were taken as we don't show anyone having access to be able to do so. I have looked at everyone's accesses and nobody has it, and they couldn't have turned it off by themselves. FYI: Pann has e-mailed me and I have responded. I trust she will come forward and provide the information we are looking for when she can. I will do my best to shut up and stop posting here as it pains me too much to think about it and it is taking too much of my energy (as I feel compelled to check the thread every 30 seconds). I think I have made my points clear and I hope to hear from Pann soon. This feels like a bad breakup! Heff
agrizla	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:15:00 - [158] Well this one is going to be the defining issue for me. I have no connection with Playboy, but if you can lose months of "work" with no coherent explanation* from CCP "staff" then it's time to pull the plug on this game. * I have yet to see either the GMs (and yes I know they are outsourced) or CCP acknowledge that this case is - to say the least - odd. We have both of the people here who the GMs imply took the BPs saying "If I did it then name and shame" and yet they get no meaningful response from their petitions. Something smells here people and it isn't Heff's socks
cold lazarus	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:30:00 - [159] Quote: Why shoukd CCP trace the BP's? They haven't for any other corp. theft. Because its not about just theft.. on one hand you have people screaming exploit. on the other you have theft. if it was theft then no they should not expose who it was. on the other hand if it was a bug the BP's should be removed from the player and given back to playboy. If it was a theft they should prove to Heff that it was a theft but leave out any names.
Righteous X	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:33:00 - [160] Quote: playboy. If it was a theft they should prove to Heff that it was a theft but leave out any names. Why should they leave out any names? Dont this kind of behaviour need to be punished?
cold lazarus	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:36:00 - [161] Quote: Why should they leave out any names? Dont this kind of behaviour need to be punished? No corp theft is a legit crime in eve its low as hell but legit
Righteous X	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:48:00 - [162] legit crime? what is that? I can not rip my corporation off irl legit can I?
cold lazarus	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:51:00 - [163] Yes you can and its done every day from little firms to mega corps its how you do it and if you get cought
Gileaud	Posted - 2003.10.09 21:55:00 - [164] OK I was lying I dont have the bp's. I just wanted attention. Sorry folks, really bored at work. LOL Quote: Sorry you lost your bps though PBE
Master Scy	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:06:00 - [165] Quote: OK I was lying I dont have the bp's. I just wanted attention. Sorry folks, really bored at work. LOL Quote: Sorry you lost your bps though PBE And here I was making preparations for blowing you up as soon as you came out of a station to steal em... ----------------------------- You think Marco Polo said "Damn Mongolians were camping that cave entry into the next valley the entire day, you can't get friggin anywhere in the world with those damn griefer tribes all over the place" ? -Indigo Seqi
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:24:00 - [166] Edited by: Dora on 09/10/2003 22:26:16 Thanks for the sick joke, Gileaud. Maybe you can say you're the CEO of Playboy when we're all gone. That would be a blast. Customer Service is the thing that is at the top of the bug list. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Luna	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:24:00 - [167] Joshua Calvert, the GM's have helped trace down bps for another large corp. I was once in a corp that we lost a bp due to a bug and the gms helped us find it. Yes they can ... unfortunately they seem to be selective in their help. I hope that Customer Service gets a patch soon,because they really need it; the kind of patch that does not make a million more probs but one that fixes some serious public relations problems. GMs please end this thread the right way! Luna
Gileaud	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:28:00 - [168] By the way I am the CEO of Playboy Enterprises. Quote: Boobs and ships, what more could you want?
Aint Bea	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:36:00 - [169] Quote: By the way I am the CEO of Playboy Enterprises. Quote: I am spartacus!
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:38:00 - [170] Wow, that was a blast. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Gileaud	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:41:00 - [171] Was it good for you baby?
Lysithea	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:57:00 - [172] I'm sure Gilliaud is a kid just begging for the attention he doesn't get at home. Let us stay focused on the issue at hand if we can.
Silinary	Posted - 2003.10.09 22:58:00 - [173] Nobodies saying it, and maybe I shouldn't either ... but for those directors with a lot at stake, this should be used as an example. Research jobs.. are very similar to production jobs. With production, you can specify the blueprint in a hanger you have view access. Select the resource hanger and then select the Output hanger. Look at research jobs, they are no different. A clever and sneaky person could indeed get view access to a secure hanger and factory privliges. This person sets the blueprint to research ... sets the resource hanger (at present useless to have in there) and then they set the Output hanger. There is no restriction on the output hanger. From what I see it's apparent someone started a research job, with output to some hanger they do have access to. Now, whether they can cancel the job and still have it output to there or if they have to wait out 1 research cycle, I don't know, but from what I see here, it appears you don't have to wait. Researching a copy doesn't do this as the output is a copy. For mienral reduction or production time reduction, the output is an original. This is good to know so all those directors and CEOs following this thread can shore up any security holes they have. My system isn't the best, but it allows the freedom of use. Make max use copies and put those in the hanger that members only have view access to. They can still go there and start production runs without the worry of losign an original, or the copy, as a copy can not be researched in any way. This is an important oversight by CCP and should be remedied, bu until then, keep an eye out. I appologise for any harm this information may bring, but I think that the boost in security awareness overshadows the potential harm. You can do anything you set your mind to.
Onazel Darklord	Posted - 2003.10.09 23:03:00 - [174] Quote: Nobodies saying it, and maybe I shouldn't either ... but for those directors with a lot at stake, this should be used as an example.... I appologise for any harm this information may bring, but I think that the boost in security awareness overshadows the potential harm. Um, don't post exploits, dimwit?
Silinary	Posted - 2003.10.09 23:06:00 - [175] the GMs have said that no exploit was used, and as such, they must not consider it one. If they do, then they can delete my post and let the harm to lawful corporations continue. You can do anything you set your mind to.
Korbin Dallas	Posted - 2003.10.09 23:31:00 - [176] Surfing the channels and webs, I came across this in th csm chat log. Pann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly. Hope heff can pull out a can of Whoop @ss!
Calladen Nimitz	Posted - 2003.10.09 23:32:00 - [177] Edited by: Calladen Nimitz on 09/10/2003 23:33:50 "Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it." Well Heff says he has known that "other guy" for 10 years in real life. I'd be very interested to see how this plays out. Calladen
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.09 23:43:00 - [178] Korbin.... we've been talking about that very quote since like page 6.
Othnark	Posted - 2003.10.10 00:10:00 - [179] Isnt this over now? Can Heff / Dora confrim that other people had access to research their BPs? Didnt we all read a post just a small while ago explaining the oversight in considering researched BPs output that can go into a different hangar than where theyy started? This is what happened here no? -Othnark
Cruise	Posted - 2003.10.10 00:13:00 - [180] Who knows, CCP STILL doesn't seem to be telling Heff and Dora a damned thing. ------------------------------------------- Catapultam habeo. Nisi pecuniam omnem mihi dabis ad capul tuum saxum immane mittam.
Datsevlu	Posted - 2003.10.10 01:29:00 - [181] The person above does not know what he is talking about you can set the output hanger to another hanger and I have never seen this put the bp to another hanger. We have done alot of researches and I have never seen this to be true. There is an exploit I know of but I would not be stupid enough to post it here. But here is what we have done with our corp. 1. taken away all but the neasary factory access 2. Taken away any remove rights from the first hanger in the list 3. taken away read access from any bp hangers. I would suggest you do the same. -- Datsevlu Blow'em up we'll build more. Techell's ingame site
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.10 01:35:00 - [182] Dats, if you don't mind, can you send me the detailed steps on how to do this? Pann and I have exchanged e-mail messages directly and I would like to send her the exact steps. Perhaps I am putting too mcuh faith in her ability or power to get something done, but I would like to try. Also, let me know if this latest quick downtime fixed the "bug". I would be interested if CCP tried to fix or cover it up. Thanks Heff [email protected]
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.10 03:09:00 - [183] Heff, I think it might have been fixed over this quick downtime. Some of the things mentioned here I tried after talking to my CEO and telling him we might have a security hole. I was not able to replicate the incident from what Nail's posted (and got those details removed) in Vegeta's post. All in all, I beleive my CEO took precautions anyway in case I had been missing out on some detail in this. ~thinks up some catchy phrase to put into a banner sig to support Heff in his endevor~
Sybylle	Posted - 2003.10.10 07:40:00 - [184] Shame on U CCP... I'm a great Eve fan, and ex-beta tester, but now it's going too far. These kind of issue is tolerable while in beta. Are we in a paying beta right now? Retail wasn't the 6th of may 2003? You are wasting your game with this kind of issues, and more important, you don't seem to care a lot, or your lack of communication means so, at least for me. Do you consider all players as exploiters/cheaters and "wanna get stuff 4 free"? As a beta tester, I know as many others do that EVE WASN'T READY FOR RELEASE. Did you beleived that we were just wishing to play for free 6 months more? I know these kind of issues will appear, and that it will be more dangerous while in retail than during beta. Would you mind keep your players updated on this kind of problem? Do you really have a so big lack of communication between your teams, so that during CSM, we all know that something is planned to be added, but you (almost) never know about true issues ingame? A lot of the issues we encountered these last months aren't still fixed. If this is part of a bigger plan, nobody seems aware of it (speaking of players). Do we have to pay to guess what's going on? Do we have to be patient? Are you lieing us? Example : baby roids..."Fixed in next patch", "Soon", "When it's ready". Then "deep core mining will be introduced soon". Is this a patch for baby roids? Are we supposed to mine giant roids core, to get highter minerals, to get rid of giant roids, therefore increasing baby roids size and content? Nobody knows. Please, a corporation CEO needs all trace rights regarding the corporation assets. When saying "it's the other guy that stole everything" to a CEO, you say nothing. Anybody on the forum can say the same, with as proofs as were given to Heff (i.e. none, according to the previous posts). This is not the first time, and probably not the last, unfortunatly. As stated before the game was released, there is a lot of work still to do. Your are loosing paying customers, no beta testers. You are loosing credibility with your own player database, and a lot of Eve fans. Urgent things to do is BUG FIXES, RIGHTS/MANAGEMENT of corporation fix. This should have been done a lot earlier, and that's exactly to avoid that kind of issues that many tester advised you the game wasn't ready (and still it isn't). Playboy has always been a respected and clean corp. They play within the rules that were established. I you are sure of what you say regarding the BP, give them proofs. If it's an corp internal problem, there is no risk for you. If it's a mistake you made because you where too fast on your analysis, say it. It's your work, as you didn't gave the corporation managers enought tools/power to manage their corporation. In order to avoid this kind of issue, keep us informed. If it's a bug, it needs to be fixed. If it's a thief, CEO need to be able to trace it himself, without requesting CS. And please, DO NOT ADD CONTENT! This is not the priority. Think beta. Fix bugs and THEN add content. You cannot keep your players only adding new stuff. (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
Halo Jones	Posted - 2003.10.10 08:04:00 - [185] Well, since you suggest the CEO should be able to trace where things go, this is a given. Its a feature that is within the games abilities, as the GMs use it. As for telling playboy whole stolen their stuff, then if a bug wasn't exploited then no they shouldn't, as they haven't done this for any other corp thus far, and many people have had multiple goods stolen. If the rules were exploited, then the person should be banned, plain and simple, and goods returned to Playboy, but one thing to note, CCP have *****ed down on exploiters, more so recently than ever, and thus far they have made no rumbling in that direction - suggetsing a security oversight on Heff's part. I think it might be an idea in this case for CCP to actually respond, as 10 page threads shouldn't pop up out of nowhere, without some sort of official responce. Oberon Incorporated.
Sybylle	Posted - 2003.10.10 08:51:00 - [186] I know they did nothing for many other corps before. This is why it's lame. My point is that this kind of request should have been fixed after the first issue. This was pointed out while in beta, and still hasn't been fixed. It has nothing to do with private life, as it is game life related... The CEO should be a ble to "mark" items as corp owned, and should be a ble to trace these stuff. If nothing was done before, it has to be done sooner or later. We arent' even speaking of reimbursement. Just give the CEO all data he should be able to get normally. Give him the tools to manage the corporation as it is supposed to be. And I do not say give that to Heff, but to all CEO ingame. In a word : FIX. As corporation are the skeleton of Eve, you are loosing many bones right now As always, my request : Fix and inform. (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.10 09:50:00 - [187] Edited by: Aelius on 10/10/2003 11:13:10 Good luck in your "indiana jones" quest for the lost BPs. Just joking here, i wish that your matter be resolved soon. Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
GM Grimmi	Posted - 2003.10.10 10:21:00 - [188] Hiya all, I just wanted to let you know that we are still investigating this matter and doing some tests to establish if there has indeed been some exploiting here. Hopefully this will all be sorted out soon. GM Grimmi Senior Game Master EVE CSS
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.10 10:30:00 - [189] Quote: Joshua Calvert, the GM's have helped trace down bps for another large corp. I was once in a corp that we lost a bp due to a bug and the gms helped us find it. Yes they can ... unfortunately they seem to be selective in their help. I hope that Customer Service gets a patch soon,because they really need it; the kind of patch that does not make a million more probs but one that fixes some serious public relations problems. GMs please end this thread the right way! Luna The problem with CS is that they don't appear to have an Obudsman of some sort. so basically, the lower ends of the customer service chain gain god-like powers. You issue a petition, and you are subject to their personal judgement. Sometimes you have a valid question or argument, but you get a locked petition because the CS representative does not like you or <insert your fave issue here>. Of course, Im not talking about all CS representatives. BTW, most of them were quite helpful in the past, but sometimes I feel that I would be better "helped" if the issue was raised up in the chain. What they need is a person to evaluate the situations presented in the petitions. Im not talking this because of my personal issues. Im talking about this because of a simple reason: look TomB's answers in most CSMs: "I was not aware of that". _______________________________________________
Miss Goose	Posted - 2003.10.10 11:03:00 - [190] As I have been reading this paticular forum every one and any one outside of the corp can't imagine how much this has been tearing our corp up. If it is a thief I know we all want to know who it is and why as our corp seems to be as I thought one of the closer nit corps far as trust go's. This hasn't been the only bug that has been plagueing us as other bugs have hit us hard. My only hope is ccp will make clearity of the current situation. Bleieve me any one of our core members I would sincerely trust like no other.
Chacer56	Posted - 2003.10.10 11:06:00 - [191] thats what your corp gets for trusting people. this is a game with people you dont really know. TRUST NO ONE!!! ______________________________________________ JOIN ME IN A QUEST TO KILL PIRATES. JOIN ROBIN OF LOXLEY CORP.
bullwyff	Posted - 2003.10.10 12:39:00 - [192] Hope you get those bps back as soon as possible HEFF good luck and GMS do youre job hope youre giving this matter a fast resolving. thought he was chicken but chickens dont run that fast
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.10 12:57:00 - [193] Edited by: Dora on 10/10/2003 12:58:53 Just two notes here: 1) It is indeed possible for someone to hack an account if you have saved your account username and password when entering the forums. Do not click, or if you have - unclick the save password checkbox and enter your password each time. 2) Just another morsal of angony, the date stamp on petitions is bugged. Thanks CCP... Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.10.10 13:22:00 - [194] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 10/10/2003 13:23:20 Let¦s hope this gets sorted out soon. Anyways there¦s something I don¦t really understand: Personally I know that I would never ever leave the game over things like these. Me and my corp have worked months for the things we have aswell but I still wouldn¦t leave the game after loosing them. I¦m interested to know how the loss of a few square blue-ish pixels (yes... this is an understatement ) can tear up your corp if you¦re all good friends as you say you are. For my corp it¦s not the items we have, the ships we fly or the number of friggin skillpoints we¦ve trained that makes the game interesting... it¦s the joy of "working" together for something... the joy of simply logging in every day to play together with some other cool people you might even get to meet in RL. It doesn¦t matter if that something we work for is the isk for a frigate or the isk for a battleship BP because for us the way is the goal. So I¦d like to ask why the loss of those BPs bothers you so much that you¦ll leave the game over them? Aren¦t the people you¦ve been playing with everyday to aquire those BPs 100 times as important as those stupid BPs? I¦m sorry but to me it seems like you really don¦t give a damn about your fellow corpmates. A few BPs vanish and there you go, leaving all your corpmates behind because of (I¦ll say it again) some stupid blue-ish pixels that produce nothing but other, maybe brown-ish or silver-ish pixels Basically what I¦m trying to say is: Don¦t let yourself down because you loose items in a computergame. Some of you guys have been playing as long as or even longer than me so you know for a fact that things like these happen every now and then... in every computergame. Sure, the support so far has been rather... let me say it in a mild way... non-existant but does that still justify leaving all of your cormates behind? Think about it Mai's Idealog
Ange Noire	Posted - 2003.10.10 13:43:00 - [195] copy/past from the last CSM (funno if someone else did it before i really don't want to read 11 pages of thread (with some huge jerkyness) to find one intersting topic :p) Quote: Jash Illian> Okay, today a rather large scale corp theft made news. Large numbers of Playboy Enterprises may be leaving shortly as some of their top blueprints went MIA. According to GM Ender it is an internal matter, but Heff would still like to know the details of what happened. Jash Illian> And I'd like to know if I'm missing something as I've never been able to track hangar/slot usage Pann> Let me contact Ender for a response. EZ, go ahead with your question while I do that. Jash Illian> which would be critical to 'investigating in-house' as GM Ender suggested EzTarget> I've been reading the forums while in this CSM meeting, and I've noticed that some people are having problems with BP's not ejecting correctly (into another corps's hanger in one case) when they are part way though a research and the lease runs out. Is there any offical word on how this will be fixed? EzTarget> And I've just asked the same Q as Jash, nice one there lol EzTarget> /emoteBangs head on nearby brick wall.... Roulette> ! Jash Illian> not the same question Ez Latta> I would like to go a bit off topic and suggest we (non-ccp) meet a day or 2 hours before to discuss our questions and issues Latta> discuss this afterwards EzTarget> it is, I was reading the playboy posts while I wrote that up, Heff's not happy and another Playboy char is asking about selling his/her acount on e-bay because of it.... Latta> it worries me too Vegeta> /emoteknows how it was done, and it IS an exploit TomB> It is a known issue and a fix is being worked on Pann> Ack! How embarassing. My node dropped. blush Pann> Was EZ's question answered? TomB> yes Pann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly.
Nightwing	Posted - 2003.10.10 14:55:00 - [196] So far, the relevant items I have gleaned from these 11 pages are the following. 1. A lot of very important BP's disappeared from lab slots while being researched. 2. These BP's were installed from a secure hangar that only 2 people had TAKE access to. (this was confirmed by the GM in question) 3. BOTH of the individuals that have this access have stated in very clear terms that they did not take them. They have ALSO given CCP permission to tell everyone that they are lying if the logs show that they did. 4. CCP has not informed anyone that these 2 people are lying. (should be easily traceable since CCP can track transactions). 5. I am a member of Playboy Corp. and still trust both Heff and Dora and believe something fishy has occurred. It really sucks when your corp gets put on "Hold" for a couple weeks... (the music sucks...)
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.10 15:33:00 - [197] Edited by: Heff on 10/10/2003 17:20:54 Quote: So I¦d like to ask why the loss of those BPs bothers you so much that you¦ll leave the game over them? Aren¦t the people you¦ve been playing with everyday to aquire those BPs 100 times as important as those stupid BPs? I¦m sorry but to me it seems like you really don¦t give a damn about your fellow corpmates. A few BPs vanish and there you go, leaving all your corpmates behind because of (I¦ll say it again) some stupid blue-ish pixels that produce nothing but other, maybe brown-ish or silver-ish pixels Absolutely, the people within Playboy Enterprises are some of the best people I have ever encountered anywhere. You can see if you look at the recruiting messages I have posted in the corp section that I stress that we are a "close knit" group, many of which are "real life friends" and everyone "knows each other by name". Comradery was and is paramount in Playboy Enterprises. The reason I am considering leaving Eve is the total lack of support and blatant disregard of this issue from CCP. Let us assume this all gets sorted out... it will only happen again, and again, and again. That was fine in beta, but how can I throw money at a game that 1) doesn't work and 2) disallows me to receive support when I need it. Please keep in mind: on the extremely rare chance that Eve worked correctly and we did have a legitimate thief with legitimate access rights, this issue does not go away. Even if I went sleep walking and logged onto my machine, and stole the blueprints myself, and sent them to someone else, we would still have a problem. It is an issue of communication and support. That is why I would leave. If and when I leave Eve, I will keep in touch with my corpmates. I will likely play another MMORPG with some of them, or pick up another game so I can keep in touch with them. It is the lack of direct support that further alienates me every day. I know it's not purposeful, I know the different branches of CCP are located in different areas and there seems to be a breakdown in communication from them. Each time I get a response from a GM, it is a different one, and the response isn't altogether consistant with the responses I see from the GMs on this board. How can I feel supported when I get different answers from different people now 10 days after the initial inquiry? Heff
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.10 16:21:00 - [198] Well said NightWing Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.10.10 17:07:00 - [199] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 10/10/2003 17:08:53 Heff while I wouldn¦t leave the game because of support I do understand your point and agree fully. You know I¦m one of these types that actually doesn¦t give a damn about ingame items so I generally don¦t need support at all except when it comes to real issues like being unable to login or something... and I have to say that whenever I had problems like these CS was there and helped out pretty quick. So... people try not to bash down on CS so hard. After all this whole issue is one out of thousands CS has to resolve every day. Sure, we¦re talking about several bs-blueprints but that doesn¦t make it any more important than a lost cruiser or something. Sure, they¦re doing mistakes and CS could be a lot better, but it would be false IMO to accuse them of not trying their best to help where they can. And tbh the whole "but a whole corp could be leaving OMG! CCP do something!" argument is bs IMO. When players leave it¦s their own decision. Sure, CCP might provoke people to leave in ASOLUTELY RARE cases but that still doesn¦t make them responsible for what you do or decide to do. And I¦ll say it again: Issues like these and the form of support Heff and his mates more or less received are absolutely rare. So I¦d like to ask people to keep it real and not act as if things like these are happening on a daily basis. CS does make mistakes yes, but if you take a look at the amount of quickly resolved petitions versus the number of cases where CS made mistakes I think you¦ll see that those guys are actually doing a pretty good job... especially when you take into account that we¦re not talking about SOE or any other huge gamedev studio here. With the resources they have they¦re doing a good job IMO. Cheers. Mai's Idealog
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.10 17:20:00 - [200] Quote: Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 10/10/2003 17:08:53 Heff while I wouldn¦t leave the game because of support I do understand your point and agree fully. You know I¦m one of these types that actually doesn¦t give a damn about ingame items so I generally don¦t need support at all except when it comes to real issues like being unable to login or something... and I have to say that whenever I had problems like these CS was there and helped out pretty quick. So... people try not to bash down on CS so hard. After all this whole issue is one out of thousands CS has to resolve every day. Sure, we¦re talking about several bs-blueprints but that doesn¦t make it any more important than a lost cruiser or something. Sure, they¦re doing mistakes and CS could be a lot better, but it would be false IMO to accuse them of not trying their best to help where they can. And tbh the whole "but a whole corp could be leaving OMG! CCP do something!" argument is bs IMO. When players leave it¦s their own decision. Sure, CCP might provoke people to leave in ASOLUTELY RARE cases but that still doesn¦t make them responsible for what you do or decide to do. And I¦ll say it again: Issues like these and the form of support Heff and his mates more or less received are absolutely rare. So I¦d like to ask people to keep it real and not act as if things like these are happening on a daily basis. CS does make mistakes yes, but if you take a look at the amount of quickly resolved petitions versus the number of cases where CS made mistakes I think you¦ll see that those guys are actually doing a pretty good job... especially when you take into account that we¦re not talking about SOE or any other huge gamedev studio here. With the resources they have they¦re doing a good job IMO. Cheers. Mailina, I've spoken with both Dora and Heff myself. And while I say something similiar, there IS a major issue in their CCP's Customer Service. The disjointed nature between CCP and the GM staff leads to a lot of ball dropping and miscommunication. And above all, I've yet been able to identify a key role in any business endeavor that deals with the public: A Customer Support Manager I honestly believe that CCP does not have this position inside their infrastructure. But it is a vital position in any business that deals with the customer. For example, who do the GM's escalate issues to that they cannot resolve or the customer isn't satisfied with the answer given? Where does the 'buck go and where does the 'buck' stop? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.10 17:29:00 - [201] Dear MaiLina KaTar, I understand you point of view. But, I am not going to play the Bug Hunting game. That isn't the game I thought I was buying. If fact, I deserve my money back for false advertising. There were only two of us that had access rights to the ejection hanger. When the BP's were ejected (which they should not have been) they would go to that hanger. If the machinics were working right, no one should be able to touch them but Heff and I. Heff and I have given our full permission to tell the world who took the BP's. Since it had to be one of us and we both gave permission, JUST DO IT! Thanks CCP.... Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Kozak	Posted - 2003.10.10 17:32:00 - [202] The support does suck. Over a week ago we filed a petition for a Lost Thorax. We deposited the Minerals and started production in a corp factory slot. Once the batch finished, the Blueprint was dropped back into a secure hangar but the Minerals and Thorax are GONE. Our petition still hasn't been answered and we now have a couple players (even more distanced by Playboy's thread) who are saying that if there aren't major changes in support, they will not renew their subscriptions. I being one of them.
HighBirdDeuce	Posted - 2003.10.10 17:33:00 - [203] Though this seems obvious and naive, would the person who stole the BP's come forward to Heff or Dora privately to settle this issue? Thanks, Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm HighBirdDeuce Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: [email protected]
Nightwing	Posted - 2003.10.10 18:39:00 - [204] Quote: Though this seems obvious and naive, would the person who stole the BP's come forward to Heff or Dora privately to settle this issue? Thanks, Lets try it by the process of elimination: Dora and alts - Didn't do it Heff and alts - Didn't do it I and my alts - Didn't do it (I hereby give CCP permission to post otherwise in case of all my accounts and alts.) Now all we got to do is get the rest of the Playboy membership to post... P.S. Izual is my RM and I know he didn't do it...
Slik	Posted - 2003.10.10 18:57:00 - [205] I did not do it either, not that it matters much since only Heff and Dora should have been able to remove those prints to begin with. I'm glad GMs stepped forward to acknowledge that this could in fact be an issue and is being further investigated. Slik (slippery when wet)
autoexec	Posted - 2003.10.10 19:08:00 - [206] Edited by: autoexec on 10/10/2003 19:15:29 Heff, Dora, you always wanted everyone in the corp to have their 2 other alt's to join as well ( For security reasons ). Did you keep written somewhere who everyone's Alt's are? Now judging by the mails from the GM's and CCP, if ALL they said is true ( they contradict themselves so my theory won't necesarly work ) they have said 2 important things. The BP's are on someone's ALT and the bp's belong to another corportation. From this we can deduce that that person's ALT is in fact in another corporation. So the suspect would have to be someone that doesn't have his 2 alt's in PB. This is a longshot tough as what GMs/CCP told us in the mails and forums might not all be true. Furthermore, when i got back from vacation, i remember someone's ALT being deleted in my mailbox. That might be a suspect as well? Also, if its still possible, listing all members that had Factory and Research access if indeed that exploit was used to get the blue prints, it would elimate some members and maybe some inactive members that won't necesarly post a message here in the forums. But then again, if no exploit was used, this would elimante potential suspects. Btw CCP has my permission to accuse me if I or one of my alts has stolen the BPs. -- autoexec.eve "If your enemy defeats you by deceiving you, you were conquered by your own ignorance"
Cortex Reaver	Posted - 2003.10.10 19:17:00 - [207] This couldn't have happened to a nicer CEO. My sympathies to the rest of PE who did that actual work for these BPs in the first place. -CR /* Cortex Reaver crtxreavr at trioptimum dot com "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -Benjamin Franklin, 1759 */
Rinekar	Posted - 2003.10.10 23:36:00 - [208] Heff and Playboy I am saddened that this has happened to you. As a CEO of a corp I find issues like this to be a major concern. There is obviously a way to "flag" or "tag" a corp asset but of course that among many other things is not active yet in game. I know the devs have mentioned that "flagging" will become an active addition in one of the upcoming patches. I think that is good but a solution needs to be put into effect now. The corp hanger has been a major crux to this game and how it is accessed. I know there may be more important issues to address in CCP's mind but it is obvious this issue needs to be taken care of right away. Heff I hope your BPs are given back and you and your corp will not leave the game. Your corp brings a neat dynamic to the game and it would be a shame to see it leave the game... Koensayr Drive Yards [KOEN] Website
Ange Noire	Posted - 2003.10.10 23:44:00 - [209] Edited by: Ange Noire on 10/10/2003 23:46:26 Pann discover at the last CSM a bug who last since ages, who made the subject of one hundred petition and who is still, and on the way to still be for a while, a damn annoying bug : the corps member hanger where u can't put items anymore. So do u really expect them to solve ur problem in few days ? even a week ? u'll be lucky if get ur BP back within a month, but i'm sure you'll get back one day. i never meet any Playboy's members but anyway, noone deserve to be spoiled like that.
PaulAtreides	Posted - 2003.10.11 00:02:00 - [210] Edited by: PaulAtreides on 11/10/2003 00:04:47 I and my other I's did not do it, and I give CCP the right to say so if I am lying. Edit: Added the extra I's Want to work for me?
Cao Cao	Posted - 2003.10.11 02:08:00 - [211] Quote: Pann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly. So this means that Dora stole them? At least, that's what Pann is saying GM Ender told her.
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.11 02:31:00 - [212] Edited by: Dora on 11/10/2003 02:39:48 We have even offered TomB to allow us to call him and then ban us for life just to have a decent conversation about this. No reply to this proposal. Great work, another customer service triumph! Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.11 07:00:00 - [213] TomB told us where to contact him. I hope to have explicit detailed answers this weekend. Anything less cannot be trusted or believed.
Red Six	Posted - 2003.10.11 07:48:00 - [214] Good luck, hopefully this gets straightened out for you.
Shaelin Corpius	Posted - 2003.10.11 10:24:00 - [215] Wow....what is left to say, but wow. I cannot believe it. That has to be THE most messed up thing I have ever heard of. I don't read all the forums that much....But this one I sat and read every thread from page 1-12 and Im up at 0230 in the morning here where I am at. To let something go this far. If they do not end up telling you....its because they don't know, they just don't know (CCP). I have been playing this game since it came out. I have spent so much time and effort aquiring the things I have and what our corp has. For a corp to lose so much in one day. I would exit the game, and remove my account, and say goodbye. I do not know how you have dealt with this. To even think that a 10-year friend could even do this to you...(counting out the fact of anything gone awry in the friendship) I am Appauled. Disgusted. Mortified. Completely ready to hit the Uninstall. Though yes this is only a game........if someone stole the blueprint to some crazy atomic weapon and someone who was in charge knew, yet could not tell, putting the entire world up in arms over it, all ready to give up and just end it all. And any of the possible suspects are willing to have the news spread if it was them...THEN WHAT IS THE PROBLEM. IT MUST BE A LEGAL ISSUE ON CONTRACTS TO KEEP THEM FROM GETTING SUED. That is the only reason something like this cannot be let out of the box. This situation can and will make CCP Bankrupt. This is how serious this is. My Corp is ready to go if this is not settled. I love this game. and that means at least 30-40 more members gone CCP. I am not threating, but I can't play something like this, if these situations are dealt like this. One simple message from a Dev could have avoided this entire thing. Something along the lines of. If in fact there was a bug involved. "Heff, dear player, we are working hard at investigating this situation. But due to <some malfunction> we cannot find the answer you are looking for. Please be patient as we sort this out at our level. We are extremely sorry for this and we ourselves do not know when it will be resolved" THATs BASIC PR. THAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN. That is all I would need to read, and understand, and be able to cope with it. ****ed, yes I would be. But nonetheless... were talking about coping with a situation. Please do not let this tear apart a 10 year friendship..because someone who you have never met and never will, told you that your friend(s) did something that they didn't do, and did not back it up with hard evidence. That would be more a waste than anything that could ever happen in this game or any game. But alot ppl don't realize that this is more than just a game by some means. You develop real friendship be as it may with pixels and text. But I mean Ultimate trust of time that you have spent learning and going through struggles and such. Laboring hours and hours, days and days, months and months to seee it shot down in One day. To some this means nothing. But to others This means everything. I am not trying to portray that the little guy in the game is any less important than the big guys, but certain situations need so much more attention than others, and I am so hoping that they understand this, but to the looks of this they seem to leave you haning indefinitly. Indefinite is not an option. Is the CCP sick of EVE themselves? Did they bite off more than they could chew. This is such a killer game, and so much potential. And I know your understaffed. The least you could do, if you can afford it is hire some more ppl, anyone. Just to do some of the busy bee stuff that takes your time away from your valued clients. We don't expect to be pampered as some do abuse the petitions so. And I for one cannot complain about the petitions, I have been taken care of very well. But for you Heff, Dora and Playboy Enterprize. I am so sorry, more than you can imagine, and If there is anything I can do to help you out if you do decide to stay as much as you shouldn't. You just evemail me and I'm there. My corp(s) will all help you get back up and running. I hate seeing honest ppl get jacked, like when I lost 280mil out my own personal wallet from a wallet hacker. (oops) did I say that. And this morning when a graphical error showed that every asset of mine and my corp(s) was non-existent for a period of time. In which I almost just quit. You have my utmost support I say again. You guys got more patience than I do. Good luck to you. And I can't even will it up for my tag. Man this sux.
EvilEric	Posted - 2003.10.11 11:40:00 - [216] I ain't letting this one drop from the boards... Till we all know the resolution.
Kane Jacobs	Posted - 2003.10.11 12:06:00 - [217] I wanna see this one resolved aswell... I almost fell off the chair when I saw the list of the bp's that are involved. There are quite a few hours invested in getting em all.. Good luck Playboy _______________________________________________
anora	Posted - 2003.10.11 12:51:00 - [218] HAHAHAHAHA TIME TO START OVER HEFF LMAO
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.11 13:25:00 - [219] Just to see how far off the rocker these guys are, check out this thread: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=38008 Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Blacklight	Posted - 2003.10.11 15:09:00 - [220] Quote: HAHAHAHAHA TIME TO START OVER HEFF LMAO Fate's got a nasty way of returning that kind of sentiment. I hope the fickle lady fate finds you in good spirits when she knocks on your door, imbecile. Eve Blacklight Style
Night	Posted - 2003.10.11 15:18:00 - [221] So who stole the BPS?
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.11 16:18:00 - [222] Again I ask, why should Playboy Enterprises receive any information about who stole their BP's? No other corp. has. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Kozak	Posted - 2003.10.11 16:26:00 - [223] Um, maybe because they were stolen wit the help of an exploit. If someone stole it who had access to the hangars, then too bad, but if someone without access took em, then how is that ok?
Der Mutter	Posted - 2003.10.11 17:25:00 - [224] Also, don't rule out the possibility of Heff and/or Dora just lies. Why you say. I have seen stranger ways for people to get kicks... In cases like this you always have to have an open mind. But personally I think it was someone that used an exploit that is not classified as an exploit. Then CCP can't tell them who did it, because that would ruin everything for him (or her) and PE can't figure it out by themselves. Deadlock. Death is just the beginning
j0sephine	Posted - 2003.10.11 17:50:00 - [225] "Again I ask, why should Playboy Enterprises receive any information about who stole their BP's?" ... The explanation given by CCP was, according to their logs the blueprints were stolen by "the other person" (not Heff) with legitimate access to them and then transferred to the alt of that person. The other person in question happens to be Heff's long-time friend. Both him and Heff urged CCP to come out and specifically point out which one of them is the 'legitimate thief', being that at the moment only CCP has both the information and authority to clear their name, after they essentially branded Heff's friend as corporate thief. Currently, CCP can either say that yes, it was Heff's friend who stole the blueprints... or to admit this was actually some third party which got access to the BPs through the quirk of game security system. It's not complicated, and simply a matter of putting money where one's mouth is. (CCP claimed it's not a game bug, but specific person; that person gave them green light to back up that claim with proof) The fact they're delaying to address the issue which has been blown up to this proportion is quite disturbing.. :/
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.11 18:03:00 - [226] Quote: Also, don't rule out the possibility of Heff and/or Dora just lies. We have both given CCP permission to reveal if it was us who had anything to do with this. We have nothing to hide. The fact that our BPs are missing is not in dispute. The question is: how did they disappear. Options: 1) Our labs were unrented, the BPs didn't get ejected, and the next person who rented the labs got some free BPs. Comments: Possible. One of my corpmates has replicated this and was able to get a BP out of a vacated lab that did not belong to him. Others on the forums have seen this as well. We have had prior instances of labs unrenting themselves in the middle of a long research or copy job. For some reason, the labs did not realize that they were actively being used. Our CEO did get mail that the leases were canceled due ot lack of use so I don't doubt this happened. 2) A thief had legit access to our secure hangar and took the BPs fair and square. Comment: Highly doubtful. We monitor access rights constantly. If someone had access to our secure hangar, they would have taken everything in it (not just those BPs that were in the labs). Also, you cannot turn off your own access rights to anything. If a thief did have those rights, he would still have them now and nobody does. 3) A thief unrented our labs and used an "exploit" to manipulate how the BPs got installed/ejected to a non-secure hangar so he could get access to them. Comments: Likely. A number of people in the game know how to do this. It only requires 'view' access to a given hangar (which is what we grant our members). 4) Someone hacked our accounts and took the BPs using our characters. Comment: Doubtful. Our accounts hold significant cash (ISK) and none of it is missing. As far as I can tell, that's it. Of course there can be variations to each of the above themes, extra wrinkles, etc. But those are the most likely scenarios. After talking to many players, replicating certain results, looking at member access rights, looking at emails, etc; I am convinced scenario #3 holds the answer. Would that mean we had a thief in our ranks? Yes. Should he have been able to get our BPs? No. That is what we are expecting CCP to tell us. Heff
autoexec	Posted - 2003.10.11 18:18:00 - [227] Heff get your ass on Irc -- autoexec.eve "If your enemy defeats you by deceiving you, you were conquered by your own ignorance"
slothe	Posted - 2003.10.11 18:50:00 - [228] Please return them whoever has them. Dont want to lose another decent corp. Say hello on our forum @www.aserea.com or join our public channel ingame "MLM Public" http://www.khainestar.com/eve
Velsharoon	Posted - 2003.10.11 19:34:00 - [229] While ive never even seen a member of PE i have to add my support for Heff and Co, i have been following this since the thread was first started and i am very disapointed to see that there has been no conclusion to the problem. Hope this all gets sorted out soon the suspense is killing me
Deloup Drakar	Posted - 2003.10.11 20:13:00 - [230] And here is our admittance to the exploit: --------------- Warning for corporations and their blueprints There is currently an exploit where corporation members with factory access can steal blueprints from their corporation hangar floors. We warn all corporations out there to take factory management access from everyone who you do not trust for valuable blueprints belonging to corporations. The people that have used this exploit to steal blueprints from corporations can be traced down and will be dealt with. --------------- Hopefully now CCP/the GMs will return your BPs to you Heff. Unfortunatly something like this had to happen to get this fixed, but it was definatly the best thing to do (reveal your plight to the public and put pressure to CCP). I think I might speak for alot of CEO's and hard-working corp-members out there in saying "Thank you for bringing this up and giving the rest of us a warning 4 days ahead of CCP"
Victoria Madison	Posted - 2003.10.11 20:25:00 - [231] I really hope that this means that Playboy's blueprints will finally be returned. Hang in there Heff and Dora...hopefully the end is near.
Samsson	Posted - 2003.10.11 20:43:00 - [232] I think Heff has gone way above what he should have to do to get renumeration. The ball is in CCPs court I hope they dont drop it.
Durus	Posted - 2003.10.11 22:23:00 - [233] Edited by: Durus on 11/10/2003 22:24:00 A game is just a game, no matter how you want to make it 'real' it's becoming more and more like a game! After seeing pages and pages of replies for this thread I just can't help myself laughing. Yes, it is painful to lose all those BPs after weeks and months of dedication and hard work. Every corp member would be disheartened (not just the CEOs or directors). But letÆs face it; itÆs an exploit not a bug. You should take your hat off and bow to the exploiter who had the brain to do what he had done. There is always an exploit some where and this is the beauty about EVE. As in æreal lifeÆ, there are loop-holes in every system. You just have to keep patching those holes with new laws and legislations. Unfortunately in æreal lifeÆ God (or the GMs) did not seem to appear from the sky and said æthis is an exploit and therefore anyone doing this will be dealt with. By the way, these were yours. You can have them backÆ. What has been done cannot be undone. If you are the type of man the majority of people who replied to your post think you are, you should not quit. You have the talents and the ability to build your corp to where it is now. The strength of a corp is not based on how many BPs or ISK you have but on the dedication, cooperation and strength of all your corp members. They are your true assets. Together you can all rebuild and be stronger after this ælittleÆ set-back. Finally stop bashing CCP on every bug or exploit that you see. There is no such thing as a æperfectÆ world out there. How many times does CCP have to tell people not to trust anyone? Test everything out and donÆt take things for granted. Better be safe than sorry! You can pray but God can get very busy too.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.11 22:31:00 - [234] Edited by: Jash Illian on 11/10/2003 22:39:36 Quote: Edited by: Durus on 11/10/2003 22:24:00 A game is just a game, no matter how you want to make it 'real' it's becoming more and more like a game! After seeing pages and pages of replies for this thread I just can't help myself laughing. Yes, it is painful to lose all those BPs after weeks and months of dedication and hard work. Every corp member would be disheartened (not just the CEOs or directors). But letÆs face it; itÆs an exploit not a bug. You should take your hat off and bow to the exploiter who had the brain to do what he had done. There is always an exploit some where and this is the beauty about EVE. As in æreal lifeÆ, there are loop-holes in every system. You just have to keep patching those holes with new laws and legislations. Unfortunately in æreal lifeÆ God (or the GMs) did not seem to appear from the sky and said æthis is an exploit and therefore anyone doing this will be dealt with. By the way, these were yours. You can have them backÆ. What has been done cannot be undone. If you are the type of man the majority of people who replied to your post think you are, you should not quit. You have the talents and the ability to build your corp to where it is now. The strength of a corp is not based on how many BPs or ISK you have but on the dedication, cooperation and strength of all your corp members. They are your true assets. Together you can all rebuild and be stronger after this ælittleÆ set-back. Finally stop bashing CCP on every bug or exploit that you see. There is no such thing as a æperfectÆ world out there. How many times does CCP have to tell people not to trust anyone? Test everything out and donÆt take things for granted. Better be safe than sorry! You can pray but God can get very busy too. ^- Polaris Alt It's not just about it being a game. It's about in that game suddenly having 85% of what a good sized group of people worked for disappear overnight. It's about seeking assistance in finding out what happened and having it go on for 2 weeks with little action. It's about when finally getting a response it's a nameless, faceless mail saying that someone you've known for years backstabbed you. Without providing any supporting evidence to counter the plentiful supporting evidence that this world is far from perfect. It's about having one of those involved with telling you your real life friend backstabbed you without offering any supporting evidence come into a thread with an arrogant declaration of how your real life friend was the culprit and not the software he's supposed to support. Although he softened it with an apology first (sorta like wrapping a feather around a brick before clubbing someone in the back of the head with it). I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Mojo JoJo	Posted - 2003.10.11 22:46:00 - [235] Quote: Finally stop bashing CCP on every bug or exploit that you see. There is no such thing as a æperfectÆ world out there. How many times does CCP have to tell people not to trust anyone? i think this just shows that the first person not to trust is ccp/ but this is nothing new
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.11 23:55:00 - [236] And 2 weeks later, Playboy is still without blueprints. Amazing.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.10.12 01:06:00 - [237] Jash pretty much sums it up for me Mai's Idealog
Shaelin Corpius	Posted - 2003.10.12 01:09:00 - [238] Durus....You must be a NOOB, you don't even have a clue what it takes to get all that stuff do you. Yes there are loop holes in everything in life. But, when one is found, an explanation is needed. One has been given. So now what? No one knows? Were not trying to bash CCP, most of us love this game, and deal with those exploits and loopholes on a constant basis. How bout this, go make 100bil with your corp mates and make some major plans and goals. Then just give it to me. And tell your buddies that you don't have it anymore and that they are just screwed. You think ppl will want answers? Yes. You think everyone who is in that corp might up and quit? Maybe. You probably read about 2 threads in this whole situation didn't you. Its not just about the items, even though they are the most expensive items in the game right now. Its about the PR that needs to happen when things go awry. Quick and Simple. Thats all we wanted to know. These guys have been put in limbo for a while now. And Cheers to them for being so diligent. Does that not show you anything, that they do care about what happens. Only a true Noob who has no clues to anything would put up a reply like that. I bet some of these threads are from some noobs, and they understand whats going on. And if you are not a noob, shame on you for not being in support of something this tragic, cause if it happened to you, i bet you'd be sitting right here in there shoes, wondering whats going on. You Eve lifes work gone. Man you just don't get it.
Miru	Posted - 2003.10.12 03:16:00 - [239] This will not get me any Brownie points, I am sure but to SOME of the following persons: Pann, Tomb, Customer service, GM's of various levels, Which of you is wearing that "MAGIC HAT" this week ?? If you can read anything beyond cursing ( which always seems to bring some responce quickly - check the posts here for proof ) WHY have you not replied to the two people that you are slurring. I am a nobody, but a paying customer and your treatment of this is (was going to list all the words for it but dont have days lets say pityful) Here is a hint this is not gettting swept under the rug, you will get more and more flames unless of course you really pull a bonehead move and kill the thread. (then the flaming will likely become a raging fire) This is one time that even foes are together You are wrong in the way this has been handled, time to surrender, do the right thing. I love this game but this affair Stinks (aside to josh this is not about replacement anymore it is more about assasination by innuendo and THAT is wrong). Miru just a poor miner that is ****ed off. Heff and Dora you have my best wishes and hopes that CCP will wake up.
Muad' Dib	Posted - 2003.10.12 05:52:00 - [240] CCP?
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.12 06:06:00 - [241] CCP is looking at it. I spoke with TomB earlier today.
Veruna Caseti	Posted - 2003.10.12 06:06:00 - [242] Quote: itÆs an exploit not a bug So what do you call it when you write code and it doesn't work the way it was supposed to? It's an exploit of a bug. I would go on, but I can't muster the strength to respond to any of the other incredibly irrelevant things you managed to include in your post. I won't flame you personally, but I will flame your post - it is by far the stupidest I have ever seen on these forums, and that speaks volumes. Now let the rest of the world return to hoping this incredible injustice that is 100% the fault of CCP and has caused the loss of probably thousands of hours of people's hardwork, dedication and perserverence in a game that has tested all of our loyalty with its many bugs, quirks and exploits is righted - as it should have been the day it happened. Veruna Caseti Ishukone
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.12 08:43:00 - [243] Quote: There is currently an exploit where corporation members with factory access can steal blueprints from their corporation hangar floors. We warn all corporations out there to take factory management access from everyone who you do not trust for valuable blueprints belonging to corporations. The people that have used this exploit to steal blueprints from corporations can be traced down and will be dealt with. The News are out. expect your bp any time soon Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Rahvin	Posted - 2003.10.12 11:51:00 - [244] Edited by: Rahvin on 12/10/2003 11:53:36 Hmm been reading this post for a few days. Goto work to return and see a posting by ccp on the news. (below statement copied and posted here from this very site.) ------------------------------------------------ There is currently an exploit where corporation members with factory access can steal blueprints from their corporation hangar floors. We warn all corporations out there to take factory management access from everyone who you do not trust for valuable blueprints belonging to corporations. The people that have used this exploit to steal blueprints from corporations can be traced down and will be dealt with. ------------------------------------------------ Wonder if this is what happened to Heff?, if so. CCP owes a big "Were sorry to not listen to you and not to have believed in you" Apology.
GraveDigger	Posted - 2003.10.12 12:02:00 - [245] hey Heff, please update as soon as you know you are getting your BPs back.. I hope the DEVs give you something extra for your troubles. let us know..thanks
Ulendar	Posted - 2003.10.12 15:14:00 - [246] Quote: Just to set the record straight, this is not a bug. We can't name any names, but the corp in question should really look within their own ranks for the culprit. We know exactly where the blueprints are at this moment, and they did not just vanish Oh god no... If i had tools to read logs ect you would think that gives me an advantage over the rest in term of knowing what has actually happened.. It seems however you would think wrong..either that or gm's dont even bother to use their tools! No bug you say? Thats funny cause i just read on the news that the people responsible optained the bp's using an exploit. Exploits are commenly caused by a flaw in the coding wouldn't you agree? Now listen to my advice because i think it will make a big diferents to people if you do... DO NOT...i repeat...DO NOT reply to a topic if you dont know whats going on or have not bothered to inform yourself throughoutly. As a gm's or polaris member people expect you to know things we dont (because you have special tools and logs you can view) if you make a reply such as this you unneedingly besmerch the name of a respected person in the game...seeying as you indirectly acused either dora or heff of theft. When a GM or polarismembers makes replies such as this and lateron they prove to be completely incorrect AS FREAKING USUAL, it paints a very ugly picture on CCP's customer support wich is already thought very poorly of as you may have noticed from the numerous rantposts directed at customer support. Its not all about unsticking people and locking topics unfortunitly things require a little more effort from time to time. In this case we once again see that the needed amount of effort was not done by one gm in perticulair...hence your post. PLease...if you dont know what your saying then restrain from posting as it does not encourage trust in the gm team from the customers side...to be frank it makes the gm team look like compleet arses. Il be honest... When i read about 3-4 pages through this post i already KNEW that your post (gm) would be lateron this threat proven to be less then true and i knew that once again gm's would amount to nothing but sawing confusion around this whole endavour. I didnt want to say anything up to this point because i was frankly hoping i was wrong...how very naive of me indeed. So the truth is... This is most definitly an exploit (as stated by the devs). This was not caused by dora wich was refered to as 'the other' but you did manage to keep this topic steaming hot upto this point. Bottom line... The bp's were stolen due to a bug in the coding...hence...neither dora or heff were to blaim, the only guilty party here is the code. Hence a refund must be made. Il take the 'a refund must be made' very lightly because it seem that even when you do lose soemthing due to bugs the power nor the will is there to replace the lost item. Yes i have made petitions in the past wich intangled lost ships ect. all of them were flopped off with a poor excuse. I can only hope that this topic has caused enough unrest in the comunity sothat a refund of the lost goods will be undeniable to save what is left of the customer support team's credibility. If you feel them i am harsh or insulting then take 2 minutes to remeber that a gm is a payed employee of CCP and has a job to do. If flopping people off with excuses and generally misguiding people with contracting posts is doing your job then by all means you should be fired Originally by: cashman It's time for Eris to get a clue. CCP should make a statement about this. It's the exact same things as what Zombie did, you may not attack in "safe-areas" (empire/within sentry range) without loosing your ship.
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.12 17:38:00 - [247] This situation is getting freaky...quick. I recommend that on one use the save password "feature" when entering the boards. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Mynobe Soletae	Posted - 2003.10.12 18:00:00 - [248] OMG... It sounds like they don't know, can't verify, or don't have logs of exactly how the BP's disappeared, and are grasping at all possible bugs/hacks (and there are many) as possible ways it could have happened. Yesterday it was the unrent exploit, now it's the password-saved-in-cookies vulnerability. BTW, CCP, what's up with the links to webtrendslive.com that this site sends my cookies to? I mean, I know you kinda wanna get a profile of your customers, but ALL my cookies?
Kozak	Posted - 2003.10.12 19:17:00 - [249] Maybe subscriptions don't justify keeping the game alive. Just another way to make money from EVE-Online...
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.12 19:19:00 - [250] WTF? I thought CCP announced the BP's were lost due to an unrent exploit? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Mynobe Soletae	Posted - 2003.10.12 20:37:00 - [251] Nobody knows, we're all speculating and trying to interpret the news. Even if CCP solves the matter, PBE will be prevented from discussing Cust Support issues on the forums anyway. So we'll never know.
HighBirdDeuce	Posted - 2003.10.12 23:12:00 - [252] bury what you can't fix. keep what no one else knows Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm HighBirdDeuce Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: [email protected]
Kudikai	Posted - 2003.10.12 23:45:00 - [253] Quote: Nobody knows, we're all speculating and trying to interpret the news. Even if CCP solves the matter, PBE will be prevented from discussing Cust Support issues on the forums anyway. So we'll never know. CCP only controls these boards. I doubt they'll be able to keep this quiet on fan sites. :)
autoexec	Posted - 2003.10.12 23:57:00 - [254] Who's CCP? A corp? A player? Do they post here? -- autoexec.eve "If your enemy defeats you by deceiving you, you were conquered by your own ignorance"
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.13 04:00:00 - [255] Now that is interesting, there are only a few remaining corp members that have not responded to my call to allow CCP to fully disclose their BP's for there characters and their alts. hmmmmmmm... Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Nightwing	Posted - 2003.10.13 04:02:00 - [256] Well, if it was admitted they were taken by an "Exploit", when can we expect to get them back?
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.13 05:49:00 - [257] I don't know. But you can see how hasn't asked for CCP to reveal everything about their characters in our corp. By process of deduction he we be able to annouce the winner soon. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.13 08:19:00 - [258] I suppose the 'winner' will be the one who's afk.
Dora	Posted - 2003.10.13 13:55:00 - [259] Edited by: Dora on 13/10/2003 13:57:59 Absolutely. Offices for sale: http://www.grafweb.com/playboy/pb_offices.htm Dora CEO Playboy Enterprises Chnnl: PLAYBOY E-ml: playboy_
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.13 16:04:00 - [260] Finding out who took the blueprints is 2ndary. Honestly more an internal matter for Playboy to work out amongst themselves. The point of my interest is they get their blueprints back and get on with business I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Singular	Posted - 2003.10.13 16:38:00 - [261] It only took CCP a 15 page thread to start looking into this. Imagine if this happened to a smaller, unknown corp. They would have been ** out of luck. Im Yo Huckleberreh**
Persephonie	Posted - 2003.10.13 17:21:00 - [262] Edited by: Persephonie on 13/10/2003 17:29:30 You are all stressing me out, if it is a character in your corp who has stolen the bps, i think you should get on your knees and give CCP the biggest apology ever recorded. Without any evidence you have attacked their credibility and profesionalism, ignoring thier comments about the matter and screaming for answers (when in fact you had answers at the start) If Heff really does work for a real company he surely has no idea how the real world works, you do not treat companies as he has done, airing your greivences infront of the whole world and casting accusations around without all the facts. You have got so many people angry against CCP for this when it looks like your own negligence. And if not and it is a bug then help them find it, instead of threatening to quit like children who didnt get a prize at a party. They cannot see bugs instantly unless its brought to their attention, and they cannot take sides and give up a player who is stealing as this would be very biased and probably illegal for them. Seriously you need to sort your lives out, too many times do i see serious threats over a game!!! For these guys it is a living, and they have an obviously heavy workload, for us it is fun, which will get better the more we help out. Man i am disgusted more every day by a small percentage of the eve community. Its them that is putting my off MMORPG's not CCP...
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.13 17:53:00 - [263] I said before that TomB was personally looking into this. I am very pleased with how his personal attention is moving this along now. Apparently there are many factors at work here and it is not as cut and dry as most people would have hoped. I do imagine it will be resolved soon. All I ask is: be extremely careful in everything you do. Change your passwords regularly, re-think your corporationÆs access rights, and be ridiculously cautious. Heff
autoexec	Posted - 2003.10.13 18:06:00 - [264] Edited by: autoexec on 13/10/2003 18:14:22 Persephonie, next time you reply to a thread, please read it. Thank you. Edit: actually, please don't post at all. Thank you, come again. -- autoexec.eve "If your enemy defeats you by deceiving you, you were conquered by your own ignorance"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.13 18:49:00 - [265] Persephonie wrote: Quote: Without any evidence you have attacked their credibility and profesionalism, ignoring thier comments about the matter and screaming for answers (when in fact you had answers at the start) If Heff really does work for a real company he surely has no idea how the real world works, you do not treat companies as he has done, airing your greivences infront of the whole world and casting accusations around without all the facts. ... Well for one thing, the GM attacked Dora's credibility without offering any evidence other than his word. Given past evidence of Support being mistaken, misinformed and less than thorough such a statement that "The other guy did it" without supporting evidence would lack credibility for Heff. For another thing, further pressure to continue investigating the matter has proven again that the Support Team was mistaken and less than thorough in their investigation. That evidence is easily availible simply by looking at the GM's statement in this thread and comparing it to what is taking place currently: warning of exploits in the manufacturing system and continued developer involvement in a matter that was a "Case Closed" to the Support Team. So the accusations are founded. Third, what real world do you live in?!?. The one I live in has companies attacking each other daily, with or without evidence. There's a whole profession devoted to airing "grievances in front of the whole world and casting accusationsaround without all the facts". It's called: Journalist (retractions made availible when proven wrong). My god, I wish I lived in the 'real world' some of you apparently lived in. I'd be even richer than I am taking yall for everything you own in a universe where everyone is blind to everything except what they want to believe they see. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Ange Noire	Posted - 2003.10.13 19:10:00 - [266] That's what they said since 3 days or so ... BPs didn't vanished, someone took them and transferate it to his alt. that's what Pann said on CSM
Singular	Posted - 2003.10.13 20:17:00 - [267] Persephonie needs to move to a country where women arent allowed to speak, for the good of all. Stop wasting my oxygen. Im Yo Huckleberreh
joze	Posted - 2003.10.14 01:14:00 - [268] Quote: I said before that TomB was personally looking into this. I am very pleased with how his personal attention is moving this along now. Any news yet
Rhiannan	Posted - 2003.10.14 02:21:00 - [269] Edited by: Rhiannan on 14/10/2003 02:22:49 Right, it's time to reveal a few home truths and bring this to an end. Too many people are worrying over this, or starting their own arguments. CCP has received a lot of hassle because of this. 1) The BP's have been stolen 2) Playboy Enterprises will not be getting them back 3) They were stolen legitimately, not using an exploit 4) None of the thieves shall be banned (Nice try Heff, unlucky). How do I know all this? Because today I was banned for supposed violation of the EULA, according to the GMs/Devs, for my part in the theft of these Blueprints. I was accused of accessing another person's account with suspicion of doing so by hacking either the Eve system, or by hacking the PC of the owner of said account. As you can see, by the very fact that I am posting, this decision has been completely reversed after my accolmplices came forward and we talked things through with a very helpful Game Developer. Unfortunately, Heff has lied to the entire community, the GM's, and the Devs. There was a third person with access to the secure hanger where the blueprints were stored. For reasons of privacy, this third/other member of Playboy that had access to the secure hanger and Director rights shall be named Bob.Either through his own short-sightedness, or simply as a play to get them back, Heff failed to disclose this fact, and went about actively hiding it by revoking access of this third person before starting this public thread or any petitions with the GM's. Senior GM Ender had it bang on when he said that this was a legitimate theft, and it seems that Heff saw his play was doomed to failure, so decided to push things a little further. He used the suggestions of people trying to help out in this thread, and used them to distort the truth even more, claiming an Exploit. This put the GM's into a very arkward situation as the thread erupted in rage at 2.5 billion+ ISK worth of assets supposedly being lost to an exploit. This seemed to be working. The GMs started looking at things again, a lot harder. They were forced to re-examine all their prior decisions looking for something which didn't happen. I can only guess that this is why it took so long for them to come up with anything concrete to give to Playboy Enterprises in terms of an explanation. This only fueled peoples rage, further stressing the GMs to find a solution... quickly. Then came the "piece de resistance" from Heff. He concocted a cunning set of lies about myself, stringed them together in an email, and sent this to a Dev currently investigating the case personally for Playboy. The contents of the email are : Quote: Hi <Game Developer's name>, I know you are looking into our BP issue. I will be honest, if Bob (<Bob's real life name>) claimed that he had director access, he could be right. I have always trusted Bob and I don't think he would lie. That is why I sounded so shocked that he was involved when I spoke to you on IRC. One thing you should know: Bob (<Bob's real life name>) was very sick and in the hospital during the end of September (see the messages below). It would have been impossible for Bob to steal anything at that time. Whether an exploit was used or not, something sounds very fishy. If you read what <Bob's real life name> said, it sounds like Rhiannan (<Rhiannan's real life name>) logged into <Bob's real life name>'s account without him knowing and may have stolen our blueprints that way. Isn't that strictly prohibited by the EULA which reads: "You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited." -and- "You may not obtain, attempt to obtain, use or attempt to use the password of anyone else. You are responsible for remembering your Account information and Password." Like I told you in IRC, <Rhiannan's real life name> (Rhiannan) is a confessed hacker. He has tried to hack other members of our corporation who quit the game, and he has admitted how easy it is to hack the system and steal players' passwords. I already changed all of my passwords but I am fearful of him hacking me now. I don't know what you will find on Monday. I'm still thinking there was an exploit involved. Regardless, it seems clear that Rhiannan used Bob's account to rip us off in some way. Exploit or not, that is a clear violation of the EULA. Thank you for your continued attention, <Heff's real life name> So now the CS team are faced with not only a possible exploit, but the possibility of a hacker. Wow - what a way to guarantee a result! Slap them in the face with something they really can't ignore for fear of it being publicly released with the same tenacity as this thread. Continued...
Rhiannan	Posted - 2003.10.14 02:23:00 - [270] Continued... Heff continued the lies by fabricating an email from Bob to Heff, in which Bob supposedly claims to know nothing about the theft, and turns around and claims I must have used Bob's account to get them. Is this guy a piece of work or what? So now he's directly lying to a Developer, fabricating emails, and whoops... in a slip of the tongue admits outright that he knew Bob had access to the secure hanger all along. Not very bright Heff, not very bright at all. Said Email contents: Quote: From: "JC --" <Bob's Email address> To: [email protected] Subject: Re: Re: Re: BPs Date: Sun, 12 Oct 2003 15:59:35 +0000 <Heff's real life name>, I REALLY had nothing to do with this. As you probably remember, I was sick and in the hospital at the end of September. <Rhiannan's real life name> used my login and password to go in and steal the blueprints without me knowing. Why do you think I was willing to let you access my account to check my logs? He is my friend and I will never admit this to CCP, but at least I wanted you to know the truth. I didn't steal anything and I didn't even know about it until yesterday when <Rhiannan's real life name> told me what he had done. I am sorry <Heff's real life name> for what happened. <Bob's real life name> Definitely a piece of art. He not only debunked everything i've been trying to tell the GM's/Dev is the truth, but he turns Bob into a liar, by claiming he's telling Heff one thing and the Dev's another. Suddenly Bob is no longer a credible source of information to the Dev looking into this, because he's "covering for his real life buddy". Another interesting fact is that Bob's email name is not "JC --" it's changed from that long ago. I guess whichever old email Heff used as a template to recreate an authentic email had that name, and Heff missed it. Oops. So after several hours of our time, and that of the Developer looking into the situation, the admission of who actually stole the BP's, how they did it, when they did it, etc etc, we now have the situation resolved. I have been unbanned pretty much instantly, and the BPs on their way back into our rightful possession. There was no exploit, there was no hacking. There was plenty of lying on the other hand. My group lied to several members of Playboy in the hope of one of us remaining in the corp as a mole, and the CEO of Playboy lied to the entire community of Eve. You decide which was the lesser of the two evils. I certainly know how I feel. Yes I have successfully sabotaged a large corporation, but after Heff's actions my conscience is a lot less heavy on my shoulders than it may have been by now. I am only sorry that to get this resolved, Playboy had to receive "special attention" from the support team, where so many other corps have not. It seems a little unfair to everyone else that has had this happen to them. Maybe this will set the way of things to come, maybe it'll go back to normal. Maybe every corp will kick up a huge stink when they don't properly secure their assets... the God's of Eve only know. But to lay this to rest, it's at an end people. I hope this sheds some light on everything for you all... I know several of you have been eagerly anticipating the conclusion of this three week saga.
Xelios	Posted - 2003.10.14 02:40:00 - [271] And an eerie silence decends over the crowd...
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.14 02:57:00 - [272] This will take some time to digest.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.14 03:23:00 - [273] Quote: This will take some time to digest. Some time? Mild understatement, m8 I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.14 03:55:00 - [274] Edited by: Heff on 14/10/2003 17:48:37 Quite interesting damage control Rhiannan if I do say so myself. I neglected to post anything before this as I was under the impression I was not allowed to disclose anything. But since the gloves are off, why donÆt I respond, OK? We never had definite proof that an exploit was not used to steal our BPs. We received conflicting reports from CCP this whole time: we were told that our BPs were taken by a character who had legitimate access to the secure hangar (although the BPs were in a lab at the time they went missing) and we were told that an exploit was probably used. I will call the character in question SEROXAT since he tried to admit it in the end as you will see below. After looking at a number of pieces of evidence, it didnÆt look like Seroxat did this at all. We say this because: 1) Seroxat was in the hospital when this was done, 2) The session that was open when the BPs were stolen used an IP address that was never used with SeroxatÆs account before (discovered by CCP), 3)Seroxat admitted via e-mail that he did not do it and later admitted that someone else did (which of course could be a lie). It was contended that Rhiannan logged into SeroxatÆs account when he was in the hospital and pulled this off without SeroxatÆs knowing. Sharing account information is against the EULA. Logging into someone elseÆs account is against the EULA. Once the two friends were under investigation, they changed their story and are saying they worked together to avoid further trouble. Rhiannan is saying that Seroxat couldnÆt send me email from his "JC" address because it does not work. Funny, I have an in-box full of things from him, some of which are VERY recent. Actually, here is a link to a screenshot of one of the recent messages I got from that user (I whited out the last bit so as to protect his real world information). If you need to see more, I can furnish all you need. This argument is total buffoonery. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-10/433280/seroxat_scrn.JPG br Unfortunately, the evidence we have given to CCP and the information they have provided in return isnÆt enough to verify anything conclusively. With the suspects sticking together and saying that they did this together, they can effectively sidestep the issue. Nevermind that one player wasnÆt around to play his account when this happened, or that his account was logged in from a strange IP address when this occurred. Now that they have conveniently changed their story, and are conveniently working together now that one was caught, one player has come forth and made the following admission: ôI Seroxat did so remove Blue Prints with the sole intention of committing industrial sabotage against Playboy Enterprises.ö Regardless if this issue is officially over or not, the following characters are all related in Eve and should be viewed with distrust by anyone they deal with. I know this as I was their Co-CEO all this time and this information is not privileged: Rhiannan, Kahlan Rahl, Sorsha Loren, Chelsea, Seroxat, Sascha Winters, Bailey, and Shiwink (the is a ætÆ). Through exploit or otherwise, they are known to be, admitted to being, and have assisted known thieves. Rhiannan also admitted to hacking a former playerÆs system and crashing his hard drive for ripping off his old corporation. If you know of a player who experienced this, now you know who did it and CCP may be interested as well. I invite the host(s) of any other Eve boards to post this information on their site(s) in an effort to keep this type of thing from happening in the future. Your Eve assets are not safe, and your ôreal worldö hardware is not safe. Games should not be played like this whereby in-game activities are carried over to the real world. It is not safe. Heff
Red Six	Posted - 2003.10.14 03:58:00 - [275] That's putting it midly Morkt.
Rhiannan	Posted - 2003.10.14 04:10:00 - [276] Damage control? Err, I've publicly admitted that I was a part of this.. that's some great damage control. The only reason I decided to post is due to the harsh personal comments you decided to make to my fiancee about me, and the fact that you tried to get me banned. You took this way outside the game and that's not on. All i've done is revealed to everyone what actually happened, and let people decide, given my account of the events, whether or not you're the lying S.O.B. that I know you are. Im not quite sure why you feel that the "gloves are off" Heff.. I have nothing to fight with you about. We managed to steal your blueprints. We did it legally. Despite your twisted efforts of revenge to get me banned, the GMs/Devs have made their decision based on FACT. At the end of the day we can sit here until the end of time saying Yes you did - No I didn't - Yes you did - No I didn't - Yes you did... blah blah. It's pointless. It won't get back your BPs and it won't get me banned again. That satisfaction has been denied to you. You have "named and shamed" us. Well done. But please do not publicly slander me, as that IS, pending CCP's jurisdiction, a violation of the EULA and I will not tolerate being branded as a Hacker when this is not true, and you don't have a shred of evidence to even suggest it is. Even if you were to doctor some evidence, I see no reason why it should be given any weight considering your "skill" at creating emails that never existed. Let it die and get on with the damn game. You want to hunt me, great - I could do with a bit of excitement, but please stop wasting everyone elses time
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.14 04:17:00 - [277] Edited by: Heff on 14/10/2003 04:26:00 Quote: But please do not publicly slander me, as that IS, pending CCP's jurisdiction, a violation of the EULA and I will not tolerate being branded as a Hacker when this is not true, and you don't have a shred of evidence to even suggest it is. I never labeled you a "hacker". I said that you admitted to being a hacker and there are a handful of people in Playboy Enterprises who can vouch for that. If that was a lie, or if you want to contend that you did not say that, that is your prerogative. Factually, I don't know whether you are or not, I only know what you admitted to me in the past. If anyone from Playboy Enterprises sees this and remembers the conversation, I invite you to comment. If they don't remember THAT instance, perhaps they will remember the one involving your attempt to get Melkor (a player who left Playboy months ago for those that do not know). Heff
Rhiannan	Posted - 2003.10.14 04:22:00 - [278] A little late now you've said it don't you think... if your intentions were earnest you could have just edited it out of your original post, but nah, then it doesn't plant the seed of doubt into peoples minds does it. Ah well, I suppose this is the part where I should thank you for being so generous in granting me your "benefit of the doubt" ? Please just drop the charade and be done with it. I said i'd not continue, so unless something hugely important is posted to which people want me to reply/answer to, this will be my last post in this thread.
Devil Mann	Posted - 2003.10.14 04:35:00 - [279] Man what a cool way to end this damn thread... Seems the GMs were right and that someone did take the BPs and transfer them to an ALT. Of course no one outside of the GMs and developers knew that a third person had access to the BPs. So heff and dora came out saying "we didnt take them blah blah..you have our permission to say so if we did..." of Course the EVE community was unaware of this 3rd person who had access. So basically it seems the BPs were stolen "fair and square" (according to CCPs point of View) I think theres a few peeps in this thread who should be apoligising to the devs now as they called the GMs liers even though they were right and a person did steal them. Everyone (or a lot of people) jumped to Playboys defense without knowing of the mysterious third person. I never posted as i was positive it was an exploit and would be dealt with by the GM/devs and everything would be fine. Sorry Heff but not mentioning the third person was a great way to skew things in your favour. even if the guy was in hospital you should have mentioned it in any of your earlier posts "three people have access to the hanger but ones in hospital and me and dora didnt do it as we have been mates for ten years" Doesnt have the same ring to it does it... Dont get me wrong. I aint siding with the thief here as 2.5 billion ISK worth of BPs lost is an absolute nightmare. Technically they were stolen in fair terms as deemed by CCP and if they were returned by CCP then they can feel free to give almost the entire community of EVE a shed load of stuff as its not the first time corp clearences have happened albeit your one happens to have been one of the biggest,most expensive and frankly the dirtiest affair eve has seen for a while. As for the thieves..doesnt take long to delete an Alt and sell em on as someone else. thankfully we found out what happened and i dont care about the details now but it seems you were screwed over and thats it =============================================== Damn roid respawns,CTDS,Stuck systems,lost items,stuck in warp,friends list,broken map(insert more here after patch)...
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.14 04:37:00 - [280] Rhiannen, Heff. Can I suggest that for both your sakes we let this matter rest for a while. A lot of crap will be talked, I suspect that although you may want to defend yourselves to the utmost agaisnt everybody, saying nothing for a while is the best option at this point. Calm minds on all sides will achieve more that heated ones. Playboy needs to rebuild its future others have to live with their actions and potential consequences. Let the crap be talked and spend some time away from EVE for a day or so at least.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.14 04:44:00 - [281] Agreed, time away from Eve is exactly what the doctor ordered. As for the 3rd person who had access, we had no idea this was the case and CCP never suggested this until today. Looking back at earlier posts, did someone not confirm that "only 2 had access"? I never intended to do anything but find the truth here. I think part of it has been found, but I think the rest will die without anyone ever knowing. Doesn't much matter anymore. Heff
Devil Mann	Posted - 2003.10.14 05:34:00 - [282] Edited by: Devil Mann on 14/10/2003 05:36:47 Thats right Heff Id play down the fact that you screwed up too....got to edit something in here but you mailed a GM saying that you knew about (bob) having access and that he was in hospital. "Hi <Game Developer's name>, I know you are looking into our BP issue. I will be honest, if Bob (<Bob's real life name>) claimed that he had director access, he could be right. I have always trusted Bob and I don't think he would lie. That is why I sounded so shocked that he was involved when I spoke to you on IRC. One thing you should know: Bob (<Bob's real life name>) was very sick and in the hospital during the end of September (see the messages below). It would have been impossible for Bob to steal anything at that time. Whether an exploit was used or not, something sounds very fishy. If you read what <Bob's real life name> said, it sounds like Rhiannan (<Rhiannan's real life name>) logged into <Bob's real life name>'s account without him knowing and may have stolen our blueprints that way. Isn't that strictly prohibited by the EULA which reads: "You may not share your Account with anyone, or allow anyone other than you personally (or your minor child, if you have registered an Account on behalf of your minor child) to access or use your Account. Joint or shared ownership or use of an Account by more than one user is prohibited." -and- "You may not obtain, attempt to obtain, use or attempt to use the password of anyone else. You are responsible for remembering your Account information and Password." Like I told you in IRC, <Rhiannan's real life name> (Rhiannan) is a confessed hacker. He has tried to hack other members of our corporation who quit the game, and he has admitted how easy it is to hack the system and steal players' passwords. I already changed all of my passwords but I am fearful of him hacking me now. I don't know what you will find on Monday. I'm still thinking there was an exploit involved. Regardless, it seems clear that Rhiannan used Bob's account to rip us off in some way. Exploit or not, that is a clear violation of the EULA. Thank you for your continued attention, <Heff's real life name>" unfortunately this isnt dated but must be prior to monday at least. So you clearly knew he had access and that he was in hospital And you said you checked who had access. Did you overlook him multiple times Sorry Heff but dont slap everyone in the face with more lies (or distorted half truths.) You tried your best but you got screwed fair and square like half of the rest of EVE. Probably best if you keep your head down as i think a lot of other players are dissapointed by your actions =============================================== Damn roid respawns,CTDS,Stuck systems,lost items,stuck in warp,friends list,broken map(insert more here after patch)...
Singular	Posted - 2003.10.14 05:42:00 - [283] Doenst change the fact that Rhiannan is a piece of $hit. Im Yo Huckleberreh
Kahlan Rahl	Posted - 2003.10.14 05:56:00 - [284] Edited by: Kahlan Rahl on 14/10/2003 06:10:10 Heff please remove my other two characters from that list, they have done nothing wrong.
HC CEO	Posted - 2003.10.14 06:06:00 - [285] Actually, I think this tread should remain open for a while long so that everyone can see what has actually happened in here. All this trust everyone put into Playboy and co about their version of events (that only 2 people had access to the BPs), to a point of abusing and accusing CCP of wrong doing is in my opinion utterly unfair. The least CCP should get here is to let people see that they were trying to be unbaised in this situation rather than then being pressured into returning stolen items by claims of an exploit. Lies lies and more lies....
Znaei	Posted - 2003.10.14 06:14:00 - [286] Edited by: Znaei on 14/10/2003 06:14:51 I wonder whats on TV, now this is over clagnuts> im drunk just come back from pirates night in spain , wtf i thought it was some eve guys getting together for a drink , turned out to be a feken real pirates show , doh
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.14 06:20:00 - [287] Quote: Actually, I think this tread should remain open for a while long so that everyone can see what has actually happened in here. All this trust everyone put into Playboy and co about their version of events (that only 2 people had access to the BPs), to a point of abusing and accusing CCP of wrong doing is in my opinion utterly unfair. The least CCP should get here is to let people see that they were trying to be unbaised in this situation rather than then being pressured into returning stolen items by claims of an exploit. Lies lies and more lies.... Err...just to point out the minor little niggle with your 'CCP is Vindicated' speech: Quote: Pann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly So to paraphrase my old algebra teacher "Heff + Dora + 'Bob' = X. What is 'X'?" There's still another voice that has yet to be heard, as now credibility is in the crapper all around: CCP. And there is a bit to explain still yet. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
EvilEric	Posted - 2003.10.14 06:26:00 - [288] *clang (jaw hits floor)
Kahlan Rahl	Posted - 2003.10.14 06:34:00 - [289] Edited by: Kahlan Rahl on 14/10/2003 06:37:05 Edited by: Kahlan Rahl on 14/10/2003 06:36:30 Quote: Err...just to point out the minor little niggle with your 'CCP is Vindicated' speech: Quote: Pann> Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly So to paraphrase my old algebra teacher "Heff + Dora + 'Bob' = X. What is 'X'?" There's still another voice that has yet to be heard, as now credibility is in the crapper all around: CCP. And there is a bit to explain still yet. Heff lied about the access' they may not have been looking for the third person - aka - sero. Plus his access was removed after the theft occured.
Lola	Posted - 2003.10.14 06:40:00 - [290] wow ----------------------------------------- Sig rented by Drethen Nerevitas.
nails	Posted - 2003.10.14 06:46:00 - [291] I am without words. Though still my roomate would have to be the one doing the tricking if something like this was going to happen to us. I still say that highest level access should be reserved only for those within local ass kicking range. ------------------ http://ota-corps.otaku.jp -- Anime l33t level
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2003.10.14 07:05:00 - [292] spicy. .
Othnark	Posted - 2003.10.14 07:26:00 - [293] Sorry Heff You lose. It comes down to just one simple fact. You were not honest. You said only 2 people had access and it turns out there were 3. You raised such a stink and kicked up such a mess and it turns out you lied from the beginning? I dont care (nor should anyone else) why you did so or what explanation you give. All of your so called "evidence" be it emails or screenshots can be fabricated. You claimed "the other guy" referred to Dora when you DAMN WELL knew it referred to the 3rd with access. You and Dora sat their and just ran this lie out to the bitter end. Well you just hit that end, and its a wall. Whats next? Are you going to demand CCP to pull the log in records to see what country the owner of this account logged in from and still say everything is in CCP's court and you were treated unjustly because until you get solid proof of a legit theft you wont be satisfied? Bah......... -Othnark
Racknan	Posted - 2003.10.14 07:31:00 - [294] mmm... that popcorn was good. Thanks for proving some comic relief - at your expense - heff! Great to see that ccp wasn't 'wrong' or liers after all. and to see who was tring to run the scam. You edited the permissions after the theft to try and hide it! lol! ----- On a more serious note: You should be thankful they didn't take everything like what has happened to so many other corps do to thieves. You should feel lucky.
GraveDigger	Posted - 2003.10.14 08:07:00 - [295] Edited by: GraveDigger on 14/10/2003 10:10:48
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.14 09:42:00 - [296] Well, just goes to show fact is stranger than fiction... Still, if nothing else it points out just how limited the tools for players are to deal with corp theft. If you take away all the out-of-game-gaming you still have a large corp screwed over by people with no morals using alts to cover their tracks. One good thing about this saga is that at least it got an exploit clearly labelled as one, even though it doesn't seem to have been used here after all, so someone may benefit from that if it happens to them and they need to petition. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 09:53:00 - [297] This really is a very sad state of affairs. I would say IMO, that Rhiannen can in no way be deemed a piece of ** for what he/she did. It has been judged to be perfectly legal - underhand and at the same time obviously well executed. Of course we don't like thieves in game, that's the nature of the beast, however the game is supposed to be about piracy, treachery, greed and all the worst and most profitable elements of capitalism. Having said that, what Heff and Dora have done was outside of the game, no longer them just roleplaying; wasting the time and resources of the people that could have been sorting other issues. Unfortunately for them, however hard they struggle, the pieces just fall into place. Dora was never "the other guy" - CCP obviously would have known this to have made the comment, and to have declared it a ôlegitimateö theft. I thought it was wholly wrong for CCP to brandish Dora the thief and then suddenly go quiet, what they actually did do though was tell PE that "the other guy" did it, worded it perhaps a little wrong and everyone jumped to the conclusion it was Dora. CCP obviously knew that Heff and Dora were aware of "the other guy's existence and whilst never naming him, thatÆs what the reference was about. Dora also seemed to be doing one heck of a convincing job as coming across as someone who had just been employed by a rival games company. CCP never responded to the "if it was me you can out-me" type comments either, simply because it never was either of them. CCP would have known from the initial investigation of the incident which IP address was used, yet still seemed adamant that all was ok. I would love to know though, how sure... and i mean positively sure** Heff and Dora were that "Bob" was actually in hospital. Do they know him IRL? Or was this all part of the facade that lead to the cleverly constructed theft? That email SS proves nothing either. We have no way of knowing if that hotmail address of JC_Mickeymousehasthebp was created by Heff or Dora in the wake of this incident, it's extremely poor evidence either way. This whole debacle puts people in something of a quandary: I hope I'm wrong about you Heff, and you too Dora and that noone would stoop so low to cover their embarrassment / get revenge for an in-game action. That of course though would mean that Rhiannen was lying, and had used underhand and illegal methods to achieve his/her goals. There are no real winners either way as one party has seriously let themselves and the gaming community down, and would be lucky to get away without being banned. Sad that some people don't know how to lose (or win.) ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:00:00 - [298] Quote: Still, if nothing else it points out just how limited the tools for players are to deal with corp theft. Don't you get the feeling they (Heff/Dora) knew who did it all along and were looking for revenge / to be absolved of blame though? Quote: If you take away all the out-of-game-gaming you still have a large corp screwed over by people with no morals using alts to cover their tracks. Cheated in-game or lied-to and basically used outside of the game.... I know which I'd choose. If the truth is the way I read it, Rhiannen isn't the person who's moral values we have to worry about. ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:24:00 - [299] Quote: Quote: Still, if nothing else it points out just how limited the tools for players are to deal with corp theft. Don't you get the feeling they (Heff/Dora) knew who did it all along and were looking for revenge / to be absolved of blame though? Quote: If you take away all the out-of-game-gaming you still have a large corp screwed over by people with no morals using alts to cover their tracks. Cheated in-game or lied-to and basically used outside of the game.... I know which I'd choose. If the truth is the way I read it, Rhiannen isn't the person who's moral values we have to worry about. Don't get me wrong - I have some sympathy for your opinion. If indeed Heff removed the access to the hangar from a 3rd person after noticing the theft then that reflects extremely badly on him. The thing I don't like about all this is the use of alts. If someone manages to weedle into a corp, grab the blueprints and do a runner then they should have to face the consequences. There are two reasons this doesn't happen now: 1) The player will most likely have used an alt which is completely untracable and 2) even if the player used his or her main it would still be untracable as it's impossible to track who took what from where (other than cash) or where those things went. Number 1, IMO (and I know this is not what everyone thinks) is very bad behaviour bordering on an exploit and certainly dodging responsibility. Personally I think something should be done to minimise the chance of alts getting into a corp - for example a visible percentage of skill points in that character from an account (maintains the anonymity of the alts, but let's you know that they are alts). Number 2 is a massive flaw in the game mechanics, even if you can't track objects you should have a log of what character took what and when from a corp hangar. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:30:00 - [300] Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 14/10/2003 11:10:25 LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
qrac	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:30:00 - [301] what a joke this was... heff, u should apologise to the whole eve community and especially to ccp. u wasted ppl's time when they couyld've been fixing bugs etc and u brought bad pr upon ccp through lies. ------------------------------------------- Insanes numquam moriuntur!
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:36:00 - [302] Quote: The thing I don't like about all this is the use of alts. If someone manages to weedle into a corp, grab the blueprints and do a runner then they should have to face the consequences. I totally agree with your opinion on this one. However, the way I look at the whole "alt issue" is like this: It's a pain, it's underhand, it's far too easy to get away with etc etc - it's also something that everyone knows about by now and have done for a long, long time. It's not like it's just crept in, and CEO's/Directors can scream foul because someone "discovered" using alts to nick stuff is possible. You have to be careful who you trust, and whilst it's not foolproof by any stretch of the imagination, you have to realistically work with the system you have. Not play against that system then complain because some guy you hardly know and gave access to did a runner. In the case of this Playboy Ent. saga though, it appears (I might be wrong) that the thieves didn't do it "easy". They invested time into gaining trust before pulling off the heist, something you'd see a whole lot of in the real world. ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Terrapin	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:38:00 - [303] I'd just like to take this opportunity to suggest we rename the game to "Theve Online" The only place where earning the trust of your fellow players and then ripping them off to their last penny is applauded by the community and guaranteed to make you (in)famous.
Nieda	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:56:00 - [304] After reading the whole thread, I do feel like I've read a detective story or something. --------------------------------------------- 2004.08.12 14:50:32combatYour 720mm Carbine Howitzer I perfectly strikes Guristas Destructor, wrecking for 543.9 damage.
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 10:57:00 - [305] Quote: I'd just like to take this opportunity to suggest we rename the game to "Theve Online" The only place where earning the trust of your fellow players and then ripping them off to their last penny is applauded by the community and guaranteed to make you (in)famous. Quotes from the EVE Online box: New Universe. New Rules. Conceive a new life without boundaries where murder, plunder, betrayal and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin. The Galaxy is yours if you have the brains, strength and cunning to succeed. Thousands of solar systems await exploration exploitation, and corruption at the hands of you and your friends. Dauntless fleet commande, or the most nefarious pirate ever to terrorize the galaxy - be and do anything you'd never dare imagine. Form a cartel of ruthless compatriots and control the spaceways. Buy, sell and barter to amass great weatlh.... or do it the easy way with a hostile takeover. <end quotes> Yeah, I was expecting the Sims in Space just like you. ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.14 11:04:00 - [306] It also, unfortunately, overshadows the continuing "spontaneous dissapearence" of blueprints from hangars and factory/lab slots, that remains now, not only a mystery, but one seemingly forever to be written off as "just another playboy". Other than that I dont think I've much to comment on...
TornSoul	Posted - 2003.10.14 11:20:00 - [307] /me looks at his ever shortening list of "people/corps to have trust in", and looks at all the striked out names, and puts the pencil to use yet again..... /me walks away, head bowed and sadly shaking from side to side BIG Lottery [u
PoNgEh	Posted - 2003.10.14 11:32:00 - [308] Ok tbh Heff made mistakes, but wat about the other guys in Playboy?, they lost there hard earned bp's to. No corp deserves this. Or did playboy get there bp's back?.
Nicholas Marshal	Posted - 2003.10.14 11:34:00 - [309] They did not 'lose' anything. The BPs were stolen. The theft was aided by lax corp. Management, and incompetance. Perfectly fair.
Inri	Posted - 2003.10.14 11:51:00 - [310] All the politics and controversy aside. This will probably go down as the greatest heist in EVE-Online history. Nicely done. Low, but nicely done.
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 12:00:00 - [311] Quote: They did not 'lose' anything. The BPs were stolen. The theft was aided by lax corp. Management, and incompetance. Perfectly fair. Just so I get the situation right in my head here: Are you saying that they were stolen from Pboy.Ent or that they were originally stolen by Pboy.Ent and then stolen back? ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Relentless	Posted - 2003.10.14 12:01:00 - [312] I will leave a last note of empathy for Heff. Having been associated with two different corps that have had their assets erased by similar (though smaller scale) thefts, I know how the story goes. Utter confusion at the sudden spontaneous bp uninstalls and disappearance, early assumption that it must be an Eve bug, followed by a downward spiral of general crappiness and never really knowing exactly what happened that leaves a sour taste in everyones mouth. (except for the perp I guess, since they always get away free with huge $) It sucks. It really sucks. And legitimate or not, the corp thieves are the $hitheads in all of this. Watching months of effort disappear into the hands of someone they put trust in can make a person a little crazy, and willing to bend their ethics in a way they might never have otherwise. I can't really know exactly what all happened in this drama, but I do have a pretty good idea. I can't point a rightous finger at Heff, because I'm not entirely certain how I would have reacted in his position. Corps are way too vulnerable. It's why I have never invested in one. Financially I play this game as an independent. I do join corps from time to time, but only to have a chat channel. (it does get lonely out in space) Sad ending to this story. I was always rooting for Playboy to get their bps back.
Livak	Posted - 2003.10.14 13:18:00 - [313] This is a pretty sad thread. One important point from all this is that there is just no record of who took what from a given hanger. Like someone pointed it, if you get ripped off, you just don't know if you got ripped off or if something dissapeared due to a bug. Beleive it or not, there are bugs that do just that. I've had several items dissapear into limbo and had them restored by a GM. Fortunatly for me, they were in a personal hanger, so there was no question as to what happened to them. In any case, it would be nice to have a mechanism in place, such that if a corp is ripped off, they know it.
Devil Mann	Posted - 2003.10.14 13:33:00 - [314] Edited by: Devil Mann on 14/10/2003 13:34:36 If one thing the whole thread shows is that Alts. seem to be a major problem with the game. Why have them anyways? So you can have your own hauler when its needed? Another guy for combat? An Alt sitting nicely in empire space for making deals while your out in deep space? I assume most peoples ALTs are for simply Ore stealing or Corp thefts. Lets face it...someone whos been in your corp for a week and asks for access to everything should be watched very carefully. BUT you have no real defense against a well played corporate thief or Spy who has been in your corp for Months ! ! It only takes 5 minutes and if that person has access to everything then its over...everything is gone and theres nothing you can do...(Except conduct a major fracas on the boards and see what you can get by screaming bug ,bug ,bug) Either get rid of Alts or impose some major penalties on them....like you can see what a persons ALT chars are and if they try to delete them there main character loses skill points. this would stop people deleting alts and waiting the 5 or 6 hours to make another one. Maybe even a way of seeing a persons entire history of ALTs....quite simply corp thefts would fall through the floor as everyone would know who the scumbags were and thered be few places they could hide (except empire space) As for the theif in this thread....whos name i forgot already Rihuna or something...feel free to bash me up an APOC copy for nothing thanks =============================================== Damn roid respawns,CTDS,Stuck systems,lost items,stuck in warp,friends list,broken map(insert more here after patch)...
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 13:41:00 - [315] Quote: Edited by: Devil Mann on 14/10/2003 13:34:36 If one thing the whole thread shows is that Alts. seem to be a major problem with the game. Why have them anyways? So you can have your own hauler when its needed? Another guy for combat? An Alt sitting nicely in empire space for making deals while your out in deep space? I assume most peoples ALTs are for simply Ore stealing or Corp thefts. Lets face it...someone whos been in your corp for a week and asks for access to everything should be watched very carefully. BUT you have no real defense against a well played corporate thief or Spy who has been in your corp for Months ! ! It only takes 5 minutes and if that person has access to everything then its over...everything is gone and theres nothing you can do...(Except conduct a major fracas on the boards and see what you can get by screaming bug ,bug ,bug) Either get rid of Alts or impose some major penalties on them....like you can see what a persons ALT chars are and if they try to delete them there main character loses skill points. this would stop people deleting alts and waiting the 5 or 6 hours to make another one. Maybe even a way of seeing a persons entire history of ALTs....quite simply corp thefts would fall through the floor as everyone would know who the scumbags were and thered be few places they could hide (except empire space) As for the theif in this thread....whos name i forgot already Rihuna or something...feel free to bash me up an APOC copy for nothing thanks I agree with all this too, however if I REALLY wanted a good shot at being able to nab billions of isk worth of stuff, I'd just buy a 2nd account for a short time, clean history, good amount of skill points from being able to train and then pass it over to my main account before closing it. The problem is, the thief is usually going to be one step ahead, and then it's too late. ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Athule Snanm	Posted - 2003.10.14 13:59:00 - [316] Well there's nothing you can do about multiple accounts as they're effectively different people, but it could be made more difficult for alts to go through unnoticed. Most alts are indeed for people who want a hauler, a refiner or manufacturer who never goes anywhere, or a trade dummy (note that I don't use mine for any of these). Whilst it's not the way I choose to play the game, I don't see a problem in this. If open a trade window and I see the goods/ISK in the other box then it doesn't really matter if it's a main or an alt. If on the other hand you get a corp application, or are about to give someone a directorship or whatever then the existence of an alt is much more significant and people need to be allowed to see alts for what they are. I suggest the following, at the moment if you do show info on me you'll get my sec status (1.0 at the moment I think) my corp (Jericho Fraction) my race (Amarr) and my name. To this needs to be added '% skill points with this character' - which would be '99.96%'. If I decided that the time had come to infiltrate someone with an alt I might use 'Major Gudvybes', he would come up as a 0.0, Caldarian, % skill points '0.02%'. Immediately this would ring alarm bells. It doesn't tell you how old my character is, who my alts are, what my skills are or anything else - just that I'm an alt. _______________________________ Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene!
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 14:24:00 - [317] Quote: Well there's nothing you can do about multiple accounts as they're effectively different people, but it could be made more difficult for alts to go through unnoticed. Most alts are indeed for people who want a hauler, a refiner or manufacturer who never goes anywhere, or a trade dummy (note that I don't use mine for any of these). Whilst it's not the way I choose to play the game, I don't see a problem in this. If open a trade window and I see the goods/ISK in the other box then it doesn't really matter if it's a main or an alt. If on the other hand you get a corp application, or are about to give someone a directorship or whatever then the existence of an alt is much more significant and people need to be allowed to see alts for what they are. I suggest the following, at the moment if you do show info on me you'll get my sec status (1.0 at the moment I think) my corp (Jericho Fraction) my race (Amarr) and my name. To this needs to be added '% skill points with this character' - which would be '99.96%'. If I decided that the time had come to infiltrate someone with an alt I might use 'Major Gudvybes', he would come up as a 0.0, Caldarian, % skill points '0.02%'. Immediately this would ring alarm bells. It doesn't tell you how old my character is, who my alts are, what my skills are or anything else - just that I'm an alt. All it would really need is tighter security controls. Problem right now is most things are all or nothing. A better system would be to have some middle ground. Like the factory manager / lab rat can move the BP / materials around, but can never be moved into personal hangers /low level hangars or traded unless the CEO unlocks the item for doing so. You need CEO confirmation to make the move. This gives control to people who need to get the item(s) so they can go about their daily business, whilst still allowing the CEO to ensure that the item never leaves the instructed "comfort zone" he sets up. Yes it's extra work for the CEO, but you'd only really want to spend your time doing in on your valuable assets, and it's better than ending up on the wrong end of an alt. eg. Apoc BP Confirmation for move required by: CEO Usable by: Factory Manager / Lab Manager(?) Home Hangar: Level 7 Designated Hangers Level 7, Level 6 Auto move to Hanger after production/reseach: Level 7. That might work better. ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Skillz	Posted - 2003.10.14 15:27:00 - [318] Edited by: Skillz on 14/10/2003 15:33:50 All big and well known corporations needs welfare from CCP. You see that if they get their trust exploited, it's an exploit. If they grid bug explioit, it's nothing that anyone can do about it. Unlike corporation less players that have be banned for doing the same thing. If they spawn point camp, it's a 'tactic' and not an exploit, unlike those smaller pirates that stated doing it and got warned for it. Can anyone smell a double standard here and can that be the reason why people have started to mass cancel their accounts? Be consistent and public on what are exploits and what are not explots, it's the only way CCP can regain lost credibility. It's also in it's best interests since 90% of all players are not members of 'regional pirate alliances' and coulden't care less about what they do. I won't even mention the miner 2 bp fiasco nor the strange phenomina of high security status pirates. Not far from now, people will start to think that some people even might be allowed to duplicate things with impunity and that would be a total disaster for all parties involved and propably the end of EVE. Trust can't be demanded, it has to be earned. Keep on flaming, lamers.
Velsharoon	Posted - 2003.10.14 15:35:00 - [319] Well that was fun this is the sort of thing that makes Eve fun (although obviously not in Heffs case). Congrats Rhiannan (sic?) and i hope you profit from your escapade. On the alt issue i dont see the point, i have one character and i will stick with him. Takes away from the whole interaction thing- if i want a hauler i will do it myself or find someone else to do it. if i wanna go cazy and kill some noobs i will do it with Vels...and pay the price
Sybylle	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:08:00 - [320] Damn... GM should have better tools to track all the changes. They may have this tool already, but for now they couldn't imagine what ppl can do for money (even isk). Anyway, it was a good thread (\_/) (O.o) (> <)=Oveur (proof) "Jumping 50 systems I can like, have sex 150 times during that period"
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:21:00 - [321] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 14/10/2003 16:25:35 Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 14/10/2003 16:22:53 I don¦t care what you think but to me EVERYONE who steals is nothing but a sad little piece of sht. If I was to know those in RL I¦d be sure to give them a decent kick to the face. See... *** like these are the reason why I keep my corp rather small and don¦t buy any of those superexpensive BPs. If you don¦t even hae the opportunity to properly defend yourselves against these ******** then what¦s the point in even considering to buy one of those? Seriously this thread made me rethink my opinion about this community. If you think pulling off things like these is 'fair' and 'legal' then all I can say is shame on you and I hope that it actually happens to you, repeatedly. Pff... corp theft... industrial sabotage... ******!! It¦s probably the lowest form of pure GRIEFING I¦ve ever come across, nothing else. Mai's Idealog
Halseth Durn	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:25:00 - [322] Edited by: Halseth Durn on 14/10/2003 16:28:52 I can see how alts can be a problem if you did not trust your corp members. At Oberon, I use a combination of methods to insure security for our members assets. I suggest that other larger corporations use similar methods. 1. Only hire on an invite-only basis. Seek out mature players that you have heard good things about. 2. Spend at least an half hour talking with someone BEFORE you hire them. Ask some serious ethical questions. If they give you a bad feeling, PASS on them. It's better to have quality than quantity. 3. Look for some one who is going to be happy operating within your corp. If he/she is a big trader, and all your corp does is mine and PvP, refer them to some one else. Idle hands are the tools of the devil. 4. Get a screenshot of their character loggin screen. I conduct a lot of interviews and at the end, I ask for a screenshot of their character login screen. So far to date, I have had 2 people drop out of the conversation, and 1 (very good) counterfeit. The reaction when I ask for it usually tells me more than the actual screenshot. 5. Limit access to your big assets only to people you have known since beta. Oberon-Inc FEAR MY EMOTICONS
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:25:00 - [323] Quote: Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 14/10/2003 16:22:53 I don¦t care what you think but to me EVERYONE who steals is nothing but a sad little piece of sht. If I was to know those in RL I¦d be sure to give them a decent kick to the face. See... btches like these are the reason why I keep my corp rather small and don¦t buy any of those superexpensive BPs. If you don¦t even hae the opportunity to properly defend yourselves against these FCKING A-HOLES then what¦s the point in even considering* to buy one of those? Seriously this thread made me rethink my opinion about this community. If you think pulling off things like these is 'fair' and 'legal' then all I can say is shame on you and I hope that it actually happens to you, repeatedly. Pff... corp theft... industrial sabotage... BULLSHT!! It¦s probably the lowest form of pure GRIEFING, nothing else. Petition them then, it's obviously not legal nor fair, oh and it's greifing apparently. Nice to see the non-sad little pieces of sht will give people a decent kick in the face over a game IRL. <shakes head> ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:31:00 - [324] yeah I would because it¦s just fed up. Do you really wanna tell me that you actually like* people who do such things ? Mai's Idealog
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:40:00 - [325] Quote: yeah I would because it¦s just fed up. Do you really wanna tell me that you actually like* people who do such things ? I don't really want to tell you that, but it's semi-true. I don't like them as such, but i don't dislike them or condem them for it either. It's a game. Very few people who play it are astonauts, miners, pirates, thieves IRL - it's all about roleplay. Some argue that it reflects your personaility, in some cases maybe thats true, although by the same token sometimes i'm nicer to strangers in game that I would be IRL and I'd bet a few others are the same too. Remember: It's a game. A game about war, wealth, power. I say again, read the back of the game box and see how unethical you think certain elements of the game are then... it's pretty much encouraged. So, whilst I don't like nor dislike people who will steal legally within the rules we all play by (i.e It's accepted by the rulemakers, CCP, and they don't get banned or cheat doing it) people who rant on and on about how "lame" and numerous expletives it all is... yeah, I pretty much dislike that attitude. I know your intentions are good and you're probably a very nice person, yet your attitude does stink, and the way you express it even more so. Sure my opinion doesn't bother you though, so have a good day and good luck out there. ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:41:00 - [326] Quote: yeah I would because it¦s just fed up. Do you really wanna tell me that you actually like* people who do such things ? And let me ask you also, whos actions do you think are the most immoral... Heff or Rhiana? ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Persephonie	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:45:00 - [327] Quote: Edited by: autoexec on 13/10/2003 18:14:22 Persephonie, next time you reply to a thread, please read it. Thank you. Edit: actually, please don't post at all. Thank you, come again. I just want to say thankyou for your reaction, along with singular and jash Illian. Was nice of you to hope i stop breathing or whatever the comment was. I was upset with the theft as everyone else was but more upset with playboy and the eve communities treatment of CCP. I doubt they will get the apology they deserve as i said and i know i wont get an apology from you three, i dont expect it either, you just proved my point and sickened me more... It has been proven it was not ccps fault.
MaiLina KaTar	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:56:00 - [328] Edited by: MaiLina KaTar on 14/10/2003 17:08:53 Quote: And let me ask you also, whos actions do you think are the most immoral... Heff or Rhiana? Rhiana, clearly. Why? Because if she/he wouldn¦t be a stealing and lying piece of sht all this would never have happened and this thread wouldn¦t even exist. Quote:* I don't like them as such, but i don't dislike them or condem them for it either. It's a game. Yeah, it¦s a game. And that¦s exactly the reason why I think that people who destroy corps with such actions are the lowest lifeforms on earth. I just refuse to understand how actions that drive people to quit, loose fun in the game and having to deal with pure grief and hatred are anything even near the word 'fun'. To me the people who do these kinds of things aren¦t exploiting the game... they¦re exploiting the trust and in some cases even the friendship of other people, and this IMO goes way beyond the game itself. If you really are having fun in destroying a whole corporation and betraying people that put their trust in you then you are one of those people I hate the most. Only because it¦s a game doesn¦t mean that stealing, lying and betraying other people is anything good, espacially not when you¦re doing it to people that give you one of the warmest feelings on earth, trust. Mai's Idealog
Bargler	Posted - 2003.10.14 16:57:00 - [329] The real question is this: Will every small player and corporation get a 2 week Dev investigation each time something come up missing or is that reserved for the select few mega-corps CCP deems worthy? The answer, unfortunately, is obvious.
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.14 17:22:00 - [330] Edited by: Heff on 14/10/2003 18:38:40 Like I have hinted at, there is more to this than will ever come out in public. But you can see how the discussions went, and what kind of crazy stuff was going on. (edit)... my url to the screesnhots were pulled by CCP. Understandable I guess knowing their policy. First Seroxat said that he did not steal the BPs. Later when he was under investigation, he said that someone else used his account to do it. Then CCP verifies that Seroxat didn't log in and that someone else used his account. Now Seroxat is saying he did it. Very convenient. Could your trip to the hospital have been for amnesia? I am not making this stuff up. Anyway, I'm clearly very passionate about this. I know many of you are the same way: feeling the need to tirelessly pursue things that you know you are right about. But I think it is clear... I need to step away from the forums before I drive myself crazy. Heff Moderated: posting information on CCP email contacts removed
Singular	Posted - 2003.10.14 17:26:00 - [331] Links arent working Heff Im Yo Huckleberreh
Gigi Ana	Posted - 2003.10.14 17:58:00 - [332] Quote: Links arent working Heff Worked for me ... apparently CCP did a pretty thorough investigation. Lots of major weirdness throughout this escapade. ~Gigi~
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.14 18:15:00 - [333] Quote: Actually, I think this tread should remain open for a while long so that everyone can see what has actually happened in here. All this trust everyone put into Playboy and co about their version of events (that only 2 people had access to the BPs), to a point of abusing and accusing CCP of wrong doing is in my opinion utterly unfair. The least CCP should get here is to let people see that they were trying to be unbaised in this situation rather than then being pressured into returning stolen items by claims of an exploit. Lies lies and more lies.... In fact, I think this thread was quite "enlightening". And I have special reasons to say that. _______________________________________________
StealthNet	Posted - 2003.10.14 18:19:00 - [334] Quote: I'd just like to take this opportunity to suggest we rename the game to "Theve Online" The only place where earning the trust of your fellow players and then ripping them off to their last penny is applauded by the community and guaranteed to make you (in)famous. Quite funny isn't it ? _______________________________________________
Morkt Drakt	Posted - 2003.10.14 18:21:00 - [335] Quote: Edited by: Heff on 14/10/2003 17:46:58 Like I have hinted at, there is more to this than will ever come out in public. But you can see how the discussions went, and what kind of crazy stuff was going on. I am not making this stuff up. Heff Moderated: posting information on CCP email contacts removed Heff, Its over. Posting snippets of information to suit your side of events does nothing but harm your position in the mind of any clear thinking person. Let it lie and move on old chap.
Mr M	Posted - 2003.10.14 21:44:00 - [336] Quote: It's a game. Very few people who play it are astonauts, miners, pirates, thieves IRL - it's all about roleplay. Some argue that it reflects your personaility, in some cases maybe thats true, although by the same token sometimes i'm nicer to strangers in game that I would be IRL and I'd bet a few others are the same too. Remember: It's a game. Yeah. In real life I like cooking and to do nasty stuff with my girlfriend. But you won't see me doing that in the game. In Eve I have a bunch of really cool looking space ships. In real life I have a crapy bicycle without brakes. http://orecalc.evegeek.com \| http://www.evegeek.com
Squirrrel	Posted - 2003.10.14 22:01:00 - [337] Edited by: Squirrrel on 14/10/2003 22:07:37 Quote: Rhiana, clearly. Why? Because if she/he wouldn¦t be a stealing and lying piece of sht all this would never have happened and this thread wouldn¦t even exist. Maybe so. However what he/she did is acceptable within the confines of the game, and of the nature of the game. The word BETRAYAL is on the back of the game box. Did you read it like I asked? Heff and Dora seemed to have taken the immoral nature from within the game, and tried to use it where it's not welcomed or wanted. What they did is just so low and troublesome to everyone. If you still have the opinion is Rhiana, fine, you are of course entitled to your views, but I get the feeling that you are another in a long line of people who don't really get what this game is supposed to be, and are helping to force it into a non-confrontational area that will spell the end for it in no time. ENB MK2. Quote:* Yeah, it¦s a game. And that¦s exactly the reason why I think that people who destroy corps with such actions are the lowest lifeforms on earth. lol. Someone needs to rethink their priorities in life then if they are the lowest. I mean come on seriously, you may not like them but let's not overstate it. Quote: I just refuse to understand how actions that drive people to quit, loose fun in the game and having to deal with pure grief and hatred are anything even near the word 'fun'. Sadly this is the world we live in. Some people will always find something to complain about, and most importantly want others to play a game with their rules. If everybody who played it just accepted the rules that CCP lay down - Ore theft, Gate Camping, PKing, Podding for no reason, Corporate theft - then we could all just enjoy the game the way it's supposed to be. I guess you'd cry about a hostile corporate takeover too, someones hard work going down the pan because a few people with an agenda teamed with a large amount of shares and destroyed the corp. Seriously, take a step back from what you enjoy about the game, and the way that you play it, and look at the bigger picture. I've been in corps that got ripped off, I've been shot at, had my old main char beaten to death by m0o, chased and podded for no reason, had ore stolen from me, been ejected from areas or belts for mining in "taken" space, lost my ships during CTDs, seen the corp I enjoyed being in stripped of everything that was worth something, and you know what? That's by no means the biggest problem with this game. For me at least. People whine about any one of the things I mentioned above and threaten to leave. Thats just sad. The rules are there - pretty much anything goes as long as it's not a cheat to the system and game mechanics and it seems people can't live with that. A lot of people need to grow up and learn how to play a game. Quote: To me the people who do these kinds of things aren¦t exploiting the game... they¦re exploiting the trust and in some cases even the friendship of other people, and this IMO goes way beyond the game itself. It's integeral. Quote: If you really are having fun in destroying a whole corporation and betraying people that put their trust in you then you are one of those people I hate the most. Well truly I probably wouldn't lose any sleep over that opinion, and really people need to be more mature in dealing with their corporations and treasure them more. How many times to you see newbie corps getting flooded with emails to "join the best corp in the galaxy" just because the CEO , Director, HR don't know what they are really doing? If you flood the market with invites and will take anyone on - including in some cases huge numbers that you can't handle - regardless of who they are - you're just asking for trouble. Many people want it easy, want it handed to them on a plate, and think they can run their own guilds/corps etc when clearly they can't, Don't blame them for trying, but sometimes you have to hold your hands up, admit defeat, and move on. Quote: Only because it¦s a game doesn¦t mean that stealing, lying and betraying other people is anything good, espacially not when you¦re doing it to people that give you one of the warmest feelings on earth, trust. I said before I'll say again, read the back of the box. Read the press releases about the game and the nature of the universe. In that sense the game is good due to it's open nature, people can play how they want to make a living. They then seem to see that as the only way to do things and everything that stops them achieving it is immoral and wrong. ---------------------------------------- Scavenger, Outright Ore Thief, Whatever.
Belarius	Posted - 2003.10.14 23:03:00 - [338] I agree that theft and espionage should be and is apart of this game, however, as things stand at the moment there really isn't any in-game mechanisms to counter these actions. I liken it to a game of american rules football. There is nothing wrong with the other team beating you... There is nothing wrong with the other team intercepting a pass and taking it away from your team... However, someone on your team taking the ball scoring for the other team, then taking out a knife and puncturing the ball then walking away with absolutely no repercussions is a problem. That is basically what is happening in EVE atm. CCP has placed absolutely no mechanisms in the game to combat this... Right now I can walk into your corp gain trust, earn access to everything and then take everything many people have worked months for... After this I can delete all of the characters involved and start a fresh character or even worse yet transfer it to a second account and kill the first account. The devastated corp now has no way to trace, no way to effectively revenge themselves upon those whom have committed the act. As long as I use my original character's access this is not considered an exploit.... So how in any way shape or form is this in any way an acceptable way to play a game? All games have to have some set of rules that all must live by otherwise chaos rains and the game will fall apart... If as a game you will allow espionage, theft, etc. you must build the corresponding tools to stop, hinder or track down these deeds. What is occuring now is being done outside the effective boundries of this game, there is no way in EVE to counter this... Some may say lock down security. There have already been instances of CEO's robbing corps blind, deleting their characters and never being seen again. How and where will locking security down ever protect against a theft that can never be traced? What ccp needs to do is confront this area of EVE game play and develop the mechanisms for both sides of the coin. In EW there are ways to counter and defeat jamming, scrambling, etc. So to must ways of theft and counter-theft be created. Until CCP does this I am terribly afraid this problem will grow and eventually EVE will plummet into chaos and the eventual death as a viable mmorpg.
agrizla	Posted - 2003.10.14 23:19:00 - [339] There's actually a fairly simple way of sorting all this out and it mirrors real life Have a hangar where regardless of any other authorisations you must have two (other) directors to authorise the removal of an item from that hangar to another hangar or to a corp member. Simple eh? No more corp thefts of important items, no CEO's running off with all the goodies. Of course you could have all the directors run off with the goodies, but that's just like real life too isn't it?
Persephonie	Posted - 2003.10.15 00:50:00 - [340] The football analogy is good, however eve does work for this. Someone on your team scoring for the other team then popping the ball, is like a corp member attacking your players or stealing some mods. The footballer is unlikely to do this if he is a good member of the team, and when he did it he is out of the team (corp) Now as the manager of the football team, do you allow the players to know who you are trying to buy, how much money you have, the keys to your car and your home address, and the bank account numbers? No!!! And the bps are as valuable as these. So only you should control them. It is a horrible horrible thing that has happened and sounds very suspicious but it can be avoided!! Only give to those you trust, it seems Heff has overlooked who had access and through this lax has lost the bp's (whether by hack or no if the character was locked out it wouldnt have happened) A terrible thing but in real life, but in the context of eve this person could then have surgery ect to change himself, or maybe the original thief was working for someone and then was betrayed and killed. You would have no way of tracing them. I have to say i dont agree with using alts in this way but it is valid and does work in the fantasy background of the game. Finally i am sorry for your loss of the bp's for all the work you have put in. I do realise how bad it is. I just know its avoidable in all but the worst betrayal's.
Belarius	Posted - 2003.10.15 04:18:00 - [341] The problem is Per, whom do you trust? In this game the pervailing mentality is to get whatever you can because there is no penalty. Trust is a joke in this game, obviously Playboy found this out the hard way. Again if CCP wants this to be a truly "open" game they have to institute mechanisms that exist in RL. Thieves need skills and tools to commit crimes. Corps needs skills and tools to prevent theft. Add into the mix agents that act like "Huggy Bear" from Starsky & Hutch... Giving leads and tips on where to find the Bad guy or the stolen goods... Imagine this... Member X decides she is unhappy with Corp Y. X decides to clean them out and start her new corp. She uses her dna reticulator to leave a false signature at the vault. After her theft she's transfers her ill gotten goods to an Alt and commits clone death... Unbeknownst to her Corp Y's security officer has added a little trick to his repetoire. He can tell immediately it was a false signature and finds the true culprit with his handy dandy Pheramone sniffer 9000... But the clone is dead... So our intrepid security officer works his contacts both lawful and some a little on the seedy side. It pays off, one of his less than lawful contacts found an unusual increase in a relatively "new" character's wealth. After a bribe to the corp station manager he gets a look at the contents of the thief's hangar. Bingo! There it all is... With a warrant from Concord the thief's hangar is locked and the owners items returned. The thief now has nothing and a lowered sec rating: ( This opens up all sorts of possibilities. Item and isk laundering, private detectives, REAL organized crime syndicates, etc... This is the game I dream of... I would totally love the challenge of thieves and espionage, there just has to be mechanisms on both sides of the coin. As it stands now it's like shooting fish in the barrel and in my opinion not even a game.
Jianna	Posted - 2003.10.15 04:29:00 - [342] Edited by: Jianna on 15/10/2003 04:29:35
Rhiannan	Posted - 2003.10.15 04:29:00 - [343] Bloody good ideas! It'd have made my life a lot harder... but at the end of the day a system like that will have most of the flawas of "real-life" systems. The people with the most money will win. Bribery and corruption of agents to target people who have done nothing wrong, paying off Concord to keep them off your back whilst you slaughter innocents, etc? No matter what system there is, there will always be downsides and ways around it. The only thing I 100% agree with is that CEO's need a definite logging system that tells them who's adding/removing what from specific (secure) corp hangers. Nice idea about the Dual-Control saftey measure btw whoever first said that. Reminds me of some vault systems with two keyholes/card readers
EvilEric	Posted - 2003.10.15 06:44:00 - [344] Bel, This is the best idea I have heard of in a LONG time. This would bring a WHOLE new dimention of fun. CCP have the tools (Player and Assest tracking and Agent services.) With a little creative coding corp theft would not be seen as a low life scum job. But a role and easier to accept within the game mechanics.
Kromat Bogosh	Posted - 2003.10.15 08:08:00 - [345] Another cool feature would be to be able to see a char's criminal record (who has he killed, if he stolen anything from a corp etc). Of course, the criminal record should be general, for all alt's (that is per account). However, a thief could cover his tracks by using a 2nd account for his dirty jobs.
Skillz	Posted - 2003.10.15 17:13:00 - [346] Edited by: Skillz on 15/10/2003 17:16:15 Who's the more immoral person, the one that scams you once, or the CEO that talks 'refine efficency crap' and have hoards of knitwits work for them practically for free and forever and propably sells the corporate assets off on Ebay? Keep on flaming, lamers.
Persephonie	Posted - 2003.10.15 17:59:00 - [347] Excellent idea about the depth of options for the theft aspect, unfortunatly im sure this is not as easy to implement as you say. But would be amazing. I think CCP are to busy working on the exploits which are found as rapidly as they are stopped. Maybe working on the exploiters would be a better idea...
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.15 18:02:00 - [348] Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/10/2003 04:17:12 Quote: I just want to say thankyou for your reaction, along with singular and jash Illian. Was nice of you to hope i stop breathing or whatever the comment was. I was upset with the theft as everyone else was but more upset with playboy and the eve communities treatment of CCP. I doubt they will get the apology they deserve as i said and i know i wont get an apology from you three, i dont expect it either, you just proved my point and sickened me more... It has been proven it was not ccps fault. After spending a while trying to decide how to reply I've finally decided to simply tell it like it is. What makes you think CCP has any credibility of its own left, let alone more credibility than a person paying them at this point? Representatives of CCP (employed by, contracted for and volunteering for) have proven grossly negligent in their investigations of issues, have proven to be grossly deficient in the tools needed to thoroughly investigate issues, have proven to be grossly inconsistant in their treatment of customers and have actually lied on several occasions. And on top of all that, the software proves itself to have several large bugs daily. That is the history you choose to ignore in your admonishments. Things as early as the Beta 7 invites going out with the claim that ALL RELEASE CONTENT was implemented. When the best cruiser people had at the time were Ospreys, Scythes and such. Repeated statements like station construction platforms were already implemented, until continual pressing got those statements retracted. The first, and only, piece of Tech Lvl II technology being introduced almost a month after the last statement saying the end of the week/end of the month/in two weeks. Multitudes of incidents where the investigation into a petition amounted to opening the petition and closing it. Refusals of reimbursement because of an admitted lack of complete logs, if you had a GM honest enough to admit that. And even in this specific incident, the discovery of a bug in the software that would allow someone without access to remove blueprints from a secure hangar. Yet according to you, CCP is golden and deserving of an apology? Taking in account the full history and not just the parts that please you to look at, CCP entered this situation with far less credibility than even Rhiannan has now been revealed to have. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Drethen Nerevitas	Posted - 2003.10.16 05:42:00 - [349] Edited by: Drethen Nerevitas on 16/10/2003 06:15:34 Quote: Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/10/2003 04:17:12 Quote: I just want to say thankyou for your reaction, along with singular and jash Illian. Was nice of you to hope i stop breathing or whatever the comment was. I was upset with the theft as everyone else was but more upset with playboy and the eve communities treatment of CCP. I doubt they will get the apology they deserve as i said and i know i wont get an apology from you three, i dont expect it either, you just proved my point and sickened me more... It has been proven it was not ccps fault. After spending a while trying to decide how to reply I've finally decided to simply tell it like it is. What makes you think CCP has any credibility of its own left, let alone more credibility than a person paying them at this point? Representatives of CCP (employed by, contracted for and volunteering for) have proven grossly negligent in their investigations of issues, have proven to be grossly deficient in the tools needed to thoroughly investigate issues, have proven to be grossly inconsistant in their treatment of customers and have actually lied on several occasions. And on top of all that, the software proves itself to have several large bugs daily. That is the history you choose to ignore in your admonishments. Things as early as the Beta 7 invites going out with the claim that ALL RELEASE CONTENT was implemented. When the best cruiser people had at the time were Ospreys, Scythes and such. Repeated statements like station construction platforms were already implemented, until continual pressing got those statements retracted. The first, and only, piece of Tech Lvl II technology being introduced almost a month after the last statement saying the end of the week/end of the month/in two weeks. Multitudes of incidents where the investigation into a petition amounted to opening the petition and closing it. Refusals of reimbursement because of an admitted lack of complete logs, if you had a GM honest enough to admit that. And even in this specific incident, the discovery of a bug in the software that would allow someone without access to remove blueprints from a secure hangar. Yet according to you, CCP is golden and deserving of an apology? Taking in account the full history and not just the parts that please you to look at, CCP entered this situation with far less credibility than even Rhiannan has now been revealed to have. Owch. Jash: 1 CCP: - the average estimated Imperial Star Destroyer design flaws (174,000). _______________________________________________________________________ *IMPORTANT: Devs (and players) please take notice.* 1. 2. 3. 4. 5. 6. 7.
Luna	Posted - 2003.10.16 05:59:00 - [350] Jash, you are starting to sound a bit like joshua Calvert. Not that's it's all that bad but cmon... Cut a girl some slack... I have loved reading alot of your posts in the past Jash, but lately I dunno where you are coming from. You seem buddy buddy in the CSM then you seem a bit anti CCP in the forums... do you still play or like the game? Persephone, I would like to apologize for my post on jumpimg the gun towards CCP.... I truly think their customer service stinks... but damn do I love this game even with all its flaws and thanks for your intial post which reminded me of how tough it must be to make a game like this and deal with all the complaints. I have been extremely vocal about my dislike with customer service but hell I have paid since day 3 and I was part of Beta; I knew what I was getting into or rather what I wasn't going to get from CCP but I still play. I need to reread your post P. and reread my intial post if I can find it in this 18 page mess. Both sides have handled this poorly and now the third side coming in also seems to be just as bad. I don't think there is any truth to this whole event in regards to who is right or wrong. To me it seems like all parties have been wrong in this whole deal; CCP, Heff , and Rhiannan... I kinda think Heff is the worst of the bunch at the moment but I can't pass total judgement because I don't know any of the facts. By the way Squirrel great posts... and long live EVE espionage, but the kind that is not exploiting nor using bugs to gain. CCP, I still beg you to create better customer service to deal with your growing pains. We all love the game but continued poor customer service and replies from GMs who clearly have not read your petiton will hurt the game far worse than any exploit or bug. Thanks again P. and thanks to the GMs and devs for the thimgs you guys do do right and lets hope your goals and promises of the game become realized. Luna ps I was gonna run for Miss October(my birth month) but I think I will pass and pose in Caldari's Beautiful Bounties Mag.... or maybe a Gallente publication....
Heff	Posted - 2003.10.16 06:12:00 - [351] As long as CCP prohibits me from posting details of our chats (and their investigation), the real story is dificult to tell. But it'll come out. You'll see it soon. Heff
Luna	Posted - 2003.10.16 06:28:00 - [352] Heff, I really don't know if truth is possible in this scenario, but I imagine this has to be extremely hard for you and Dora. It has been almost as hard on the EVE community, 23,000 views... wow this is some big drama. If Rhianan is correct then you owe the community for excessive deception and if she is false and it was an exploit then she owes and CCP owes ... but like I said the community will probably never know and this may screw up support for legit claims. I just hope this leads to better customer service and CCP makes another post or comment that is intelligent, insightful, and in depth in regards to clearing and cleaning this mess up. And if the story is like you say Heff then wow what a terrible scenario and hell you must be in, but it's not looking towards your favor. Luna.... the truth is out there?
KrapYl	Posted - 2003.10.16 07:10:00 - [353] Edited by: KrapYl on 16/10/2003 07:20:30 Dear Heff have you thought about starting a "How it all hangs together" thread on www.eve-i.com or something ? there the arms of CCP cant nerf threads... though, i dont know if CCP can ban ur account then...(u giving info they dont want u to) ? as it is now, i believe rhianananenenen-whatever hacked an IRL friends account, and then toke the BP's with his character(s)... but it could also be a play for the gallery, and they really where hacked through slots exploitage(why would they unrent them selfs???)... it could also be that she(rhiaananananeneenen whatever) just had login info on a friends account, and the other day they found out that he(friend) had access to something he(friend) shouldnt have access too(secure hangar)... and rhiaiaianananenenene doesnt like PB, so when friend was gone(hospital) she used his account to log in and take what hurts the most... BS BP's... and then her friend cover for her afterwards... it could be twisted and every single way... u all 4 could just play us all for fools :D wich i dont believe... its so sad when u have absolutly no control over what you and about 20 other people constant work for months being pulled away from u, and u cant even see who... im so so sorry Playboy :/
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.16 08:02:00 - [354] Edited by: Aelius on 16/10/2003 08:03:55 seriously.... what would you expect from a corporation runned by a 70 years old impotent guy surrounded by BLONDS Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Nightwing	Posted - 2003.10.16 09:03:00 - [355] Quote: Edited by: Aelius on 16/10/2003 08:03:55 seriously.... what would you expect from a corporation runned by a 70 years old impotent guy surrounded by BLONDS There is definitely a hint of (ok, its just dripping with ) jealousy in that post... lol
Discorporation	Posted - 2003.10.16 09:08:00 - [356] Best Thread Ever. [Heterocephalus glaber]
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.16 10:51:00 - [357] Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/10/2003 10:53:59 Quote: Jash, you are starting to sound a bit like joshua Calvert. Not that's it's all that bad but cmon... Cut a girl some slack... I have loved reading alot of your posts in the past Jash, but lately I dunno where you are coming from. You seem buddy buddy in the CSM then you seem a bit anti CCP in the forums... do you still play or like the game? Can't walk into a man's house, ** on his couch and expect to get an invitation to stay for dinner now can you? It's hard enough trying to get a point across which must be phrased in the form of a question, cue Alex. Based on past performance and personal experience with the CS structures (and others), it's far more feasible to belive a bug and/or lack of thoroughness in the investigation than to believe 'legit' corp theft. With the lack of player accessible tracking of even the most basic of corporate asset, it would have to be proven that the software was not to blame. Persphone would ignore that. As for the rest...well there's still somethings a bit odd. There's the lack of official response (you don't get involved and fade into the shadows without saying something). There's the word of a confessed thief ("I've been lying for a long time to a lot of people I'm supposed to be friends with...But I'm telling the truth now!"). And then there's Heff. Where to go from here? Who knows. Map became worthless 10 miles back. All I know is Persephonie *ed me off and rather than microwave her, I took a bit to let the coals heat up right nicely for a BBQ. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.10.16 11:46:00 - [358] I've run out of popcorn. Quote: Based on past performance and personal experience with the CS structures (and others), it's far more feasible to belive a bug and/or lack of thoroughness in the investigation than to believe 'legit' corp theft. With the lack of player accessible tracking of even the most basic of corporate asset, it would have to be proven that the software was not to blame. Persphone would ignore that. As for the rest...well there's still somethings a bit odd. There's the lack of official response (you don't get involved and fade into the shadows without saying something). There's the word of a confessed thief ("I've been lying for a long time to a lot of people I'm supposed to be friends with...But I'm telling the truth now!"). And then there's Heff. Where to go from here? Who knows. Map became worthless 10 miles back. All I know is Persephonie **ed me off and rather than microwave her, I took a bit to let the coals heat up right nicely for a BBQ. Jash, if you would take a second to have a look around the sides of your ego you'll see that, actually, CCP has precisely what they would have been expected to do. They officially stated some time ago that what happened was not an exploit and was instead a action conducted by someone with legitimate access to the BPs in question. This has now been confirmed on this very thread. CCP have previously stated that covert and underhand tactics used to illictly obtain corporation assets is a valid game tactic. This method has also been confirmed on this thread. So what is there left for CCP to do? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Your personal beliefs regarding the efficacy of the CCP CS department is irrelevent. In a similar situation with a similar set of play rules on any other MMPG** the GMs would have done exactly the same thing, if not less, namely confirm the logs, attempt to ascertain that nothing untoward had happened and, once satisfied that this was indeed the case, leave the players to stew in their own juices and sort out for themselves the mess that they created. The fact that this has played out on the forums does not give you an instant right to call out CCP to provide you with all the information you feel that you personally would require to arrive at the same conclusion. So is it surprising that CCP "faded into th shadows" as you put it? Not at all. They have more important things to sort out. Like the problems that the other 14,950 people who play the game may be experiencing. So how about you get off their backs for a moment and let them get on with their job, because in this case it looks as if that's precisely what they have been doing.
Al Bundy	Posted - 2003.10.16 11:48:00 - [359] Edited by: Al Bundy on 16/10/2003 11:53:44 After reading this thread the biggest atocity here isn't the fact that PB's prints were stolen. It isn't that Heff lied...excuse me, vehemently denied the possibility of situation they KNEW could've been true to the DEVs. Nor is it that the CCP spent two weeks investigating a charade while there are people getting podded in secure space without compensation. It's pure and simple, CCP revealed info they never should have revealed just because they were under pressure from a big corp. They don't need to confirm or tell anyone that the BPs were stolen. All they should've said was, "After investigation, your BPs were not lost due to a bug. No compensation." That's it. It was not right of CCP to expose the lost as a theft. CCP is not our ingame detective for non-bug issues. What's next? Is CCP gonna tell people who my alts are if I pod them just so they can better hunt me down just because they bugged the hell out of CCP? Just because they're in some big corp and threaten to quit like a little baby? I would've just said, "Sorry, this is not a bug problem and therefore out of our hands. As to what really happened to the BPs, figure it out your-own-damn-self." But they caved, just because Heff start crying all over the forums about CCP incompentence. Puh-lease.
EvilEric	Posted - 2003.10.16 12:29:00 - [360] This thread has GOT to be awarded the finest thread in EVE History... Twists, Turns, Accusations, Denials .... Oh The humanity. Moral Discussions, Threats. Now... Heff: Can I have your stuff? (What's left of it anyway.)
Aelius	Posted - 2003.10.16 12:57:00 - [361] Quote: There is definitely a hint of (ok, its just dripping with ) jealousy in that post... lol Oh yes... jealousy for a guy that has probably the most beautiful women at home and dont have the "mojo" to take advantage of it. For me thats more than torture, It's "Evil" torture!!! Selling Raven BPC ME20 3M at Yulai 1st Station
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.16 13:15:00 - [362] Quote: Jash, if you would take a second to have a look around the sides of your ego you'll see that, actually, CCP has precisely what they would have been expected to do. It'd take more than a second for you to pull your head out from between the 2 cheeks it's stuck between, but I'm game to play. Quote: They officially stated some time ago that what happened was not an exploit and was instead a action conducted by someone with legitimate access to the BPs in question. This has now been confirmed on this very thread. CCP have previously stated that covert and underhand tactics used to illictly obtain corporation assets is a valid game tactic. This method has also been confirmed on this thread. So what is there left for CCP to do? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Your personal beliefs regarding the efficacy of the CCP CS department is irrelevent. In a similar situation with a similar set of play rules on any other MMPG the GMs would have done exactly the same thing, if not less, namely confirm the logs, attempt to ascertain that nothing untoward had happened and, once satisfied that this was indeed the case, leave the players to stew in their own juices and sort out for themselves the mess that they created. The fact that this has played out on the forums does not give you an instant right to call out CCP to provide you with all the information you feel that you personally would require to arrive at the same conclusion. So is it surprising that CCP "faded into th shadows" as you put it? Not at all. They have more important things to sort out. Like the problems that the other 14,950 people who play the game may be experiencing. So how about you get off their backs for a moment and let them get on with their job, because in this case it looks as if that's precisely what they have been doing. For one thing, the initial reports via the GM was flawed enough that the developers did have to get involved. Heff wasn't the only person that stated there were only 2 people with access. For those still in remedial math, Heff + Dora + 'Bob' = ? Second, it's a little something called "Follow Through". Once you get involved, you follow through to the end. CCP has to end this, not Heff or Rhiannan. They do have to clear up the inconsistancies in the reports of both the initial investigation and in the supplemental investigation. Third, check the mirror. There's a little something on your nose. I never said the cheeks belonged to you. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Machiavelli7	Posted - 2003.10.16 13:46:00 - [363] Wasn't 'Bob' the phantom bad guy in Twin Peaks? 'Tis an interesting thread this, and one i've followed with interest. I think CCP don't deserve a lot of the flack though. Heff didn't disclose the full truth initially. It's been shown that this was a 'legitimate' theft. Be careful with your corp members, and your hangar access rights, peeps. ;) _________________________________
Luna	Posted - 2003.10.16 14:00:00 - [364] Edited by: Luna on 16/10/2003 14:11:45 Edited by: Luna on 16/10/2003 14:04:48 Sabahl, Thanks so much for summing up for me what I wanted to say to Jash. Jash, 'telling it like it is' ? you mean giving your opinion. we all get to do that, please don't start thinking your opinion is the only right one or the best one..... thats called having your head stuck between your assteroids! I don't know what I expect CCP to do either, I was pretty sure that it was a bug as well. Now it seems that it isn't and I believe a little slack or credit needs to be given to CCP. The most productive thing I can say is: CCP there are bugs, we are living with them, please fix them and conitinue building the game we want and the game you promised on the box, but in this instance sorry for assuming it was all you and not the obvious. However please rethink customer service and bug reporting because your efforts to communicate with the players and handle problems kinda stinks right now. At least let us know that you are beginning to see some changes are needed with Customer Service. Luna <--- still loving the game and learning different ways to play it everyday. I hope the new equipment is gonna make a difference and I pray it does not make it worse.
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.10.16 14:56:00 - [365] Quote: For one thing, the initial reports via the GM was flawed enough that the developers did have to get involved. Heff wasn't the only person that stated there were only 2 people with access. For those still in remedial math, Heff + Dora + 'Bob' = ? Second, it's a little something called "Follow Through". Once you get involved, you follow through to the end. CCP has to end this, not Heff or Rhiannan. They do have to clear up the inconsistancies in the reports of both the initial investigation and in the supplemental investigation. Third, check the mirror. There's a little something on your nose. I never said the cheeks belonged to you. I've made my point. I recommend you read it again. You're obviously either ignoring it or are just too stupid to understand it. And your Childish insults are pretty much what I have come to expect from reading your verbal diarrhea on these forums.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.16 14:59:00 - [366] Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/10/2003 15:02:18 Quote: Edited by: Luna on 16/10/2003 14:11:45 Edited by: Luna on 16/10/2003 14:04:48 Sabahl, Thanks so much for summing up for me what I wanted to say to Jash. Jash, 'telling it like it is' ? you mean giving your opinion. we all get to do that, please don't start thinking your opinion is the only right one or the best one..... thats called having your head stuck between your assteroids! Okay. It is in my opinion that in the face of the strings of blatant lies (that we know of), the numerous examples of half-assed investigatations, the multitude of reimbursement requests that were refused due to lack of logging and the many occasions where the type of treatment you received from Support depended entirely on who you were that CCP had less credibility that anyone who has paid them a dollar, including Rhiannan. Now do you feel better? I can toss the words "in my opinion" in there as a sop for you. Here, I'll do it again: It is in my opinion that since you have nothing to refute any of the examples you chose to attempt misdirection by arguing semantics and applealing to the disregard the fanbois and fangoils hold for me, personally. Of all the people that have gotten involved in this, the only person with any credibility is TomB. As many times as he's said "I didn't know about that" it's clear lying is not his forte. Not Pann. Not the GMs. Not Heff. Not Rhiannan. And certainly not player lapdogs. And someone does need to say: 1) Why did the GM indicate himself only 2 people had access to the secure hangar? If it's as Rhiannan maintains, stating that Heff tried to remove director access after the fact, there's the issue of the only working security log in the corp interface trapping that where any director or security officer, nevermind a GM, could easily see it. Or did the GMs originally not see the 3rd person until CCP began investigating into it? 2) What of the factory/secure hangar exploit exposed by this? 3) If Heff is telling the truth or if anyone else ends up in a situation where a GM accuses long time friends of backstabbing, why would anyone accept the GM's word without proof offered when it may be in the GM's interest to lie (again past evidence of lying and favoritism)? So there's some more of my opinions. Shoot me for not blindly accepting what is just simply tossed out there because I've been tanning my nose too long, like others. Quote: I've made my point. I recommend you read it again. You're obviously either ignoring it or are just too stupid to understand it. And your Childish insults are pretty much what I have come to expect from reading your verbal diarrhea on these forums. How many times during school did you get punched and when the teachers asked what happened, they ended up telling you "Well you shouldn't have done xxx to them first?". I retaliate, with some notable exceptions. So don't go playing nobility when you attacked first, asskisser. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Devil Mann	Posted - 2003.10.16 15:28:00 - [367] Plz lock this thread now...its turned into a grudge match between jas Illian and sabahl and others.... ill sum it up here.... This "event" has probably been more entertaining and will have more effect than the so called championship which is going on. Heff and playboy Enterprises were apparently ripped off in a manner deemed fair By CCP. Thereby nothing else should happen.The end. Any other posts here are simply fueling the arguements from both sides about corp thefts being allowed or not allowed. Its stands to reason that almost all corp thefts are done by ALTs therefore the case of for and against ALTs comes up. Lets cut the arguements and wait for the next Big thing to happen shall we ? =============================================== Damn roid respawns,CTDS,Stuck systems,lost items,stuck in warp,friends list,broken map(insert more here after patch)...
Tetsuo	Posted - 2003.10.16 15:43:00 - [368] "It was the other guy who stole them" 2 guys 1 girl had access to the BP, correct? or is that too much roleplay from a GM ---------------------------------- While I see You cannot see While I move You move with me
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.10.16 15:48:00 - [369] This post has been signed for the hard of thinking. Quote: 1) Why did the GM indicate himself only 2 people had access to the secure hangar? If it's as Rhiannan maintains, stating that Heff tried to remove director access after the fact, there's the issue of the only working security log in the corp interface trapping that where any director or security officer, nevermind a GM, could easily see it. Or did the GMs originally not see the 3rd person until CCP began investigating into it? Maybe the GM didn't check through the security logs of everyone in the corp, only cross referencing who took the BP with the access privs which were available at the time? Maybe he didn't trawl through every single member's security rights to ascertain every possible scenario, prefering instead to spend his time more constructively once the most plausible answer had been located. Maybe there are no other directors or people with security audit access rights. Maybe a lot of things, none of which are your concern anyway. Quote: 2) What of the factory/secure hangar exploit exposed by this? I have heard a lot of explanations as to how this supposed exploit works, most of which are faulty and do not do anything like what they are supposed to do. The rest require multiple people to collude on jigging the factory acesses and so would require more than one person with the requisite access rights to the secured area. I have not been able to test this but nowhere on this thread has anyone suggested that more than one internal person was responsible for the theft. But CCP have already put out an advisory for CEOs to lock down hangar rights so what else would you have them do? If an exploit does exist would you liek them to write a patch to fix it in shrot order, or would you prefer them to spend the time posting a dev blog on every single line of code that they would need to write just so you are "kept informed"? Quote: 3) If Heff is telling the truth or if anyone else ends up in a situation where a GM accuses long time friends of backstabbing, why would anyone accept the GM's word without proof offered when it may be in the GM's interest to lie (again past evidence of lying and favoritism)? You are making an exceptionally stupid basic error. Who exactly did the GM accuse of lying and what words did they use to convey this fact? I dare you to track down the passage in question. Double dare you. You won't be able to. Why? Because the GM said that the person who removed the BPs had legitimate access rights, Heff assumed that the only person who had those rights was Dora and so interpreted this as the GM saying Dora had taken the BPs. This information has now been revealed to be false and yet you are still using it as a basis for your arguments. A lot of your current arguments are also based on debunked information. Stop living in the past or please stay part of it. Quote: So there's some more of my opinions. Shoot me for not blindly accepting what is just simply tossed out there because I've been tanning my nose too long, like others. You're not worth a bullet, mainly because you're too busy giving yourself terminal ulcers over phantom 'errors caused by gross incompetence' and accusing everyone who thinks you're a paranoid, abusive little wart of sucking up to your bugbear of the moment.
DarkRoad	Posted - 2003.10.16 15:53:00 - [370] Edited by: DarkRoad on 16/10/2003 15:58:58 why do they keep locking stuff. man its a free world. let people speak there mind quick locking stuff. i feel like there trying to brian wash us. "JOV WILL LISTEN TO US. DO NOT TALK ABOUT HOW CRAPY WE RUN THINGS. ONLY TALK ABOUT GOOD STUFF. IF YOU DONT LIKE IT EMAIL A DEAD END EMAIL ADDRESS AND WE WILL NEVER ANSWER YOU"
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.16 16:55:00 - [371] Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/10/2003 16:56:43 Quote: This post has been signed for the hard of thinking. Quote: 1) Why did the GM indicate himself only 2 people had access to the secure hangar? If it's as Rhiannan maintains, stating that Heff tried to remove director access after the fact, there's the issue of the only working security log in the corp interface trapping that where any director or security officer, nevermind a GM, could easily see it. Or did the GMs originally not see the 3rd person until CCP began investigating into it? Maybe the GM didn't check through the security logs of everyone in the corp, only cross referencing who took the BP with the access privs which were available at the time? Maybe he didn't trawl through every single member's security rights to ascertain every possible scenario, prefering instead to spend his time more constructively once the most plausible answer had been located. Maybe there are no other directors or people with security audit access rights. Maybe a lot of things, none of which are your concern anyway. No, it is my concern as a CEO with valuable blueprints who could be facing the same situation one day. Where through a half-assed investigation I can end up removing a perfectly good person based on the word of a GM. Quote: Quote: 2) What of the factory/secure hangar exploit exposed by this? I have heard a lot of explanations as to how this supposed exploit works, most of which are faulty and do not do anything like what they are supposed to do. The rest require multiple people to collude on jigging the factory acesses and so would require more than one person with the requisite access rights to the secured area. I have not been able to test this but nowhere on this thread has anyone suggested that more than one internal person was responsible for the theft. But CCP have already put out an advisory for CEOs to lock down hangar rights so what else would you have them do? If an exploit does exist would you liek them to write a patch to fix it in shrot order, or would you prefer them to spend the time posting a dev blog on every single line of code that they would need to write just so you are "kept informed"? Hello? McFly? An exploit in a system that can cause a corporation the loss of billions in assets and you think we shouldn't be updated until it is fixed? What are you, an ore slave in TerraDyne? Quote: You are making an exceptionally stupid basic error. Who exactly did the GM accuse of lying and what words did they use to convey this fact? I dare you to track down the passage in question. Double dare you. You won't be able to. Why? Because the GM said that the person who removed the BPs had legitimate access rights, Heff assumed that the only person who had those rights was Dora and so interpreted this as the GM saying Dora had taken the BPs. This information has now been revealed to be false and yet you are still using it as a basis for your arguments. A lot of your current arguments are also based on debunked information. Stop living in the past or please stay part of it. How's this: Quote: [ 2003.10.08 23:46:59 ] Pann > Here's what I found out from Ender: It was the other guy who stole them and transferred them to his alt. There were only two of them with access to the slot and the logs are very clear about it. There is an open petition/ongoing investigation and the involved parties should be hearing from Support soon about the matter. If you have any other questions, you can e-mail support directly. Emphasis added for the blind. Quote: You're not worth a bullet, mainly because you're too busy giving yourself terminal ulcers over phantom 'errors caused by gross incompetence' and accusing everyone who thinks you're a paranoid, abusive little wart of sucking up to your bugbear of the moment. Whatever. But I haven't made a single thing up, now have I? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.10.16 17:21:00 - [372] Edited by: Sabahl on 16/10/2003 17:24:50 Ahhh ok, sorry, my mistake. I didn;t realise that Pann was a GM who had direct access to the logs and so was not merely repeating (and possibly misinterpreting) information which someone else had fed through to her in a hurried fashion when put on the spot during a CSM. Apologies for my doubting that you were going from direct sources of information garnered by someone who had analysed the logs themselves, i.e. a GM. BTW, you will probably need me to point out that I am being sarcastic. The case for the prosecution rests, m'lud.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.16 17:27:00 - [373] Edited by: Jash Illian on 16/10/2003 17:28:51 Quote: Hah, well there you go. Pann is a mouthpiece at best, a pseudo-PR hack divulging a Chinese-whispered array of second-hand information at worst. I thought you were going from primary information sources not what you had heard that someone else had been told. The case for the prosecution rests, m'lud. Actually if you had bothered to read the CSM chatlog in question, you'd also had known that GM Enders had just left the chat after coming in at Pann's request to answer a question concerning Reimbursement. In which he made the claim that no comparable game on the market does reimbursements. I guess Anarchy Online and Everquest aren't considered 'comparable'. But as far as the information being 'second-hand' given he had just left, I'd say you need to find a better excuse. Or does CCP pay you for every kick your head intercepts that's headed towards their ass? I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Sabahl	Posted - 2003.10.16 17:32:00 - [374] Edited by: Sabahl on 16/10/2003 17:37:35 Can I have the red-chequered one please and 4 units of Construction Blocks to go inside? Pssst Ilian, I edited my text before I saw your reply so you're response is to the wrong post.
Dau Imperius	Posted - 2003.10.16 18:05:00 - [375] I just don't like the fact now, that somethign like this is considered 'legasl' all the griefers of EVE will be copying this and doing it to other coroporations. In the end this has all ben about morals. People will use any law bending way they can to have thier 'fun' (fun? You call turning a game into wheel of trust/torture fun?) at the expense of tothers. Unfortunetly these are mostly the 'kids', (yes sorry to do an age bracket but the generation gap and how people were raised does come into play) that come from these days of total on-line gaming and privacy of thier own personas, real or not. Not that this is always the case and us older people are just as terrible in some cases. It's sad to know this is our future, but all we can seem to do is shrug and take the hits they dish out. I'm up for greater punishments on these players whehter they say they do no wrogn or not). It's not carebearing, it's called self respect and dignity, something lost on the online gaming these days. All these people want to do is win, no matter who gets hurt, or what they have to do. No on-line game is safe anymore with mentalities like these. Nothing too constructive to say, my apologies. It's just fiascos like this only remind me of the degenerating playing styles running rampent these days. I hope those of us who played games long before compuers were out can revitalize somethign of the old table-top spirit...and heck even board games. (I don't remember anyone ever doing this BS on Monopoly.)
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.10.16 18:11:00 - [376] Quote: Edited by: Sabahl on 16/10/2003 17:37:35 Can I have the red-chequered one please and 4 units of Construction Blocks to go inside? Pssst Ilian, I edited my text before I saw your reply so you're response is to the wrong post. I know you editted your post. I prefer to leave the original text You can make excuse after excuse after excuse to cover the actions that have taken place since beta. And it may help keep your lips firmly planted where they currently are. However, I haven't told a single lie. Everything mentioned is easily remembered (though more difficult to verify without a search option for the forums). Since you think this is a courtroom, there has been plenty of evidence: 1) To indicate that the GM staff is not directly employed by CCP. 2) That the GM staff does not have access to logs capable of investigating the most basic of situations, let alone a complicated one where possible exploits are involved. That takes CCP's intervention. 3) That the GM staff has taken actions deemed unacceptable without authorization from CCP. Forum rules prevent saying much beyond it involving m0o at Mara/Passari and actions taken afterwards. 4) That the GM staff operates with little to no real oversight from CCP and that a Customer Support Manager responsible for such oversight and directly employed by CCP has yet to be identified. Many have been sentenced to death on such evidence. So given the information presented initially by Heff and confirmed by GM Enders, via Pann (), there is more than enough to distrust the initial investigation with 0 supporting evidence. The subsequent actions taken and lack of followup on CCP's part to finally put this subject to rest (as this thread continues) shows again their lack of understanding in the Customer Support area. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
GM Arkanon	Posted - 2003.10.17 14:53:00 - [377] Hi everyone. Well, this has been a very dramatic and interesting case for many reasons, not least the fact that such a big and potentially damaging case turns out to be entirely fabricated. I have now issued Heff and Dora with a temporary ban for slandering GMs, distorting evidence and wasting valuable time and resources that would have been far better spent doing something else like, say, clearing the backlog. I want to address a couple of points before I close this thread. 1. Heff: "As long as CCP prohibits me from posting details of our chats (and their investigation), the real story is dificult to tell. But it'll come out. You'll see it soon." This is as false a statement as most of the other posts Heff has made in this thread. There is no "real story" that magically makes his case suddenly valid and true. The facts are simple enough. The blueprints were stolen by a corporation member with hangar privileges, which is no bug, no exploit and certainly not something we would consider reimbursing. Heff was fully aware of this, which is why he tried to get them back by generating mass hysteria on the boards to intimidate us into replacing the loot. In a way I can understand him; this is a huge loss and it must be very tempting to find someone else to take the heat for the lack of security that led to the theft. That does not excuse the utter lack of morals displayed in the very damaging and false statements made against the GM team. False claims are a very real problem for us, and one of the most frustrating issues we deal with, as we are required to investigate them on the presumption that they are real. This contributes to longer answering times and and can even slow down the process of eliminating bugs, as we are forced to chase down a non existant bug, sometimes for days on end. This will not be tolerated on the scale we have seen here. 2. Various allegations against the GM team and Polaris members, regarding statements made in and outside this thread about the investigation and possible suspects in this case. While the investigation was in progress, we followed up several false leads and this lead to some of the statements concerned. Any attempts to pin us down because of this are not worth an answer, frankly. Those that choose not to understand that the GM team is not clairvoyant and infallible can choose to continue their flames elswhere, this thread is hereby closed. I want to stress that we hold no grudges and we have had great fun reading the monthly threads Heff has posted up until now. We do hope that Playboy Enterprises recovers from this serious blow and continues to add color and life to our community in a positive way. GM Arkanon Senior Game Master EVE CSS

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