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Bloggers #23, More on tier 3 Battleships, and a couple sneak peeks

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Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.03 13:57:00 - [151] Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Sean Drake Oh and I think your missing Tux's point about the tier 1 and 2 ships doing somthing better than the tier3. one can gank and have a little tank the other can tank with a little gank the abbadon can tank or gank. With Abaddon you can also tank heavily and fit a full rack of T2 1400mm projectiles, at least if any of the released stats are accurate at all. (and tbh even if those stats were 20% too high you could still tank+projectile "gank"). People will probably end up prefering the Abaddon with projectiles to Maelstrom... --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Nafri Caldari Cataclysm Enterprises	Posted - 2006.08.03 14:00:00 - [152] Originally by: Jim McGregor Originally by: Ather Ialeas Originally by: Sean Drake Oh and I think your missing Tux's point about the tier 1 and 2 ships doing somthing better than the tier3. one can gank and have a little tank the other can tank with a little gank the abbadon can tank or gank. With Abaddon you can also tank heavily and fit a full rack of T2 1400mm projectiles, at least if any of the released stats are accurate at all. (and tbh even if those stats were 20% too high you could still tank+projectile "gank"). People will probably end up prefering the Abaddon with projectiles to Maelstrom... For fleets that sure, Mealstrom has nothing to offer to make artilleris a good thing on them From Dusk till Dawn Sig removed, e-mail us if you'd like to know why. -ReverendM ([email protected])
Kedor Minmatar Universal Army Curse Coalition	Posted - 2006.08.03 14:09:00 - [153] I am conserned for the lack of versetality. Most of the new battleships dont bring enough to the mix. You can already snipe good in a Tempest, why add a ship that only do it slightly better? Six 1400s with RoF and dmg bonus vs Eight 1400s with RoF bonus is to small a difference. Abaddon gets the tank or the gank. So instead of fielding a Geddon or an Apoc you just have to have two different Abaddon outfits. No need for Geddons or Apocs then. Hyperion dont seem to excel that much in blasters than what a Mega can do already. Nothing jaw dropping here. While new ships is always a fun thing, they should bring something special to the battle field. Five percent more effectiveness in speciffic situations isnt what I deam reasonable. Look at the three Caldari battle ships, thats what I call versetality and uniqness. Give other races some to. Pretty please...
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.03 14:34:00 - [154] Originally by: gfldex I made some test with Apoc fittings today. Mostly to find out how tec 2 items effect cap usage. I switched my beloved tec 2 hardeners for nice named and guess what? I was able to strip a cap recharger and capa was still stable. Amarr pilots fit loads of tec 2 gear and wonder where their capa went to. As a result the Abaddon can only suck -- with a tec 2 fitting. If the Abaddon would get good capa nobody would use the Apoc and the Geddon anymore. Sorry, but that argument is just silly. Firstly, for PvE the additional resiatances from the t2 harderners will benefit you more than being able to fit one less cap recharger. What would you fit there else anyway? Secondly, for PvP, if you are still using active harderners there I would kindly point you toward a 2 EAN2 + 1 DC setup, which uses basically no cap, less cpu than a 3 active harderner setup and gives you a bigger effective hitpoint increase. So, where else to "save" cap? T2 armor reps are more capeffective than t1 ones, so those fall out of the window. Oh, we could use t1 guns and t1 ammo and do less dps and still use more cap than a geddon with t2 guns and t2 ammo.
Mr Bright	Posted - 2006.08.03 15:33:00 - [155] Well give the mealstrom a 7.5% or even 10% tracking bonus. would be much more usefull than the shield bonus. I must admit, the asaults missil scare me from a balance point of view - I hope they wont be the end of cruiser combat balance. Regarding the battlecruisers - F*** yeah to a fast evil looking autocannon minmatar boat, with 8/4/6 and a ROF + DMG bonus. give it enough powergrid to fit 7 720s IF you use an RCUII or two. Then it can be both a fragile sniper and fearsome tanked autocannon boat.
Nybbas A Place for Valen	Posted - 2006.08.03 15:48:00 - [156] I want to know how on earth they think close range medium missiles and 15km range go together at all... 15km... close range??? right.
Mr Bright	Posted - 2006.08.03 15:54:00 - [157] Originally by: Nybbas I want to know how on earth they think close range medium missiles and 15km range go together at all... 15km... close range??? right. maybe thats the new torpedo range... that would be balanced :) (add skills and its not bad at all)
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.03 15:59:00 - [158] Originally by: Nybbas I want to know how on earth they think close range medium missiles and 15km range go together at all... 15km... close range??? right. Light missiles have a base range of roughly 18km without skills, modules and ship bonus. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
Azerrad	Posted - 2006.08.03 17:08:00 - [159] Originally by: Jim McGregor People will probably end up prefering the Abaddon with projectiles to Maelstrom... I do my best to avoid any combat at ranges greater than 50km, but if I was doing the 0.0 fleet hell, I would much rather be flying an Abaddon with 1400mm and plates than a Maelstrom with 1400mm. RoF bonus doens't mean that much in fleets (helps sure, but not that much).
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.03 17:30:00 - [160] Originally by: Azerrad I do my best to avoid any combat at ranges greater than 50km, but if I was doing the 0.0 fleet hell, I would much rather be flying an Abaddon with 1400mm and plates than a Maelstrom with 1400mm. RoF bonus doens't mean that much in fleets (helps sure, but not that much). The irony is that if the other side is using EAN2 + plate tanks it will do probably more dps with 1400mms than with tachyons.

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.03 17:37:00 - [161] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/08/2006 17:39:14 Originally by: Azerrad Originally by: Jim McGregor People will probably end up prefering the Abaddon with projectiles to Maelstrom... I do my best to avoid any combat at ranges greater than 50km, but if I was doing the 0.0 fleet hell, I would much rather be flying an Abaddon with 1400mm and plates than a Maelstrom with 1400mm. RoF bonus doens't mean that much in fleets (helps sure, but not that much). Check this chart out. The massive difference between the top Amarr ships is purely because Abaddon can use Tachyons. Both the Armageddon and the Abaddon has a rof bonus, but Abaddon will probably be able to fit 8 tachs and have rof bonus on top. The dps is pretty scary. Of course their cap will get sucked up in 30 seconds without a cap injector. =) I know the chart doesnt show Abaddon with projectiles, I just wanted to show you the dps you can get with this ship if you give up the tank. Basicly gank mode. :) --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Waut 0utbreak	Posted - 2006.08.03 18:03:00 - [162] If the tier 2 BC will be pure gank, no tank why not making them a bit more agile? In Soviet EVE, roids pop YOU
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.03 18:17:00 - [163] Originally by: Jim McGregor The dps is pretty scary. Base dps. After an EAN2 tank there's not much left. Ironically the BS with the most dps against 3 EAN2 tanked armor will be the mealstrom. Then the hyperion. Then a tachyon aba. Then the mega. Of cource, the aba will do more dps vs shield and structure. But with multiple 1600mm plates Over 50% of the ships hp will be armor.
Tiuwaz Minmatar Omacron Militia Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2006.08.03 20:27:00 - [164] Originally by: Aramendel 1400mm II has without any skills 5.84 exp and 4.67 kin dps with tremor L. After resistances thats a total of 4.28 dps. Tachyon II has with a 25% ROF bonus 13.8 EM dps and 6.9 therm dps with aurora L. After resistances thats a total of 5.2 dps. Ok, it has a somewhat bigger dps. Not that much, though - and a ship without a 25% ROF bonus (like an apoc) will have only 3.9 dps. the difference btw 4,28dps and 5,2dps is 21,5%, sorry thats not a little for me Originally by: Oveur This is not the conspiracy you are looking for.
Aramendel Amarr Queens of the Stone Age	Posted - 2006.08.03 21:09:00 - [165] Originally by: Tiuwaz the difference btw 4,28dps and 5,2dps is 21,5%, sorry thats not a little for me Exept you buy this boost for 85 cap/sec (8 Tachyons with max skills on the aba). And note this is for using 1400mms with amarr ships which have no boni for them. A mealstrom will have 5.7 dps vs EAN2 armor. Even a tempest with 6 guns will have more than the aba with 5.35 dps (and the aba has an effective dual damage bonus, too, with the +rof and the higher raw base damage from lasers).
Derran Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2006.08.03 22:04:00 - [166] Originally by: Cosmo Raata I'm fairly sure Caldari is pretty happy having the best sniper ship in game, most threads talk about how to fit them, not how they want them changed. I'm not really thrilled even though I had specialized in Caldari. Except I don't really fly them anymore. I've more or less given up on them and have come full circle back to Gallente ships. Yes, I've flown Amarr ships but I hate the look of all of them so I don't fly them anymore. Although I do like lasers in that they don't require reloading and when you switch crystals, it is pretty much instanteously unlike other weapons that other ships use where you are stuck with a 10s relaod time. I started out 3 1/2 years ago focus on Gallente ships only but then branched out as they kept on making alot of changes back then that made existing ships suck and other ships better and repeating that process over time until you have a reasonable balance like you have today. 49M skillpoints later (approximately 15M+ of it wasted and unused) and I am back to Gallente ships.
Snipes123us	Posted - 2006.08.03 23:13:00 - [167] Sry if this was already mentioned but theres a lot of posts. What is the max speed that the devs are planning on giving the hyperion? Was wondering if it will turn out to be like the Vagabond which can go an insane speed with a full snake set.
Qinoly Gallente Rampage Eternal	Posted - 2006.08.04 01:38:00 - [168] Edited by: Qinoly on 04/08/2006 01:39:27 Balanced? nuff said
Mr Bright	Posted - 2006.08.04 08:28:00 - [169] Originally by: Qinoly Edited by: Qinoly on 04/08/2006 01:39:27 Balanced? nuff said Thats an old problem, think the dev resoning is something along the line of "missils are secondary weapon systems on many ships so training time should be shorter" .... either that or CCP have raven flying mission alts as half of eve it seems.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.04 08:30:00 - [170] Originally by: Weirda ships that have bonuses to their mid slots tend to have a lot of mids... hence scorpion, blackbird, recon ships... raven does NOT have a mid slot bonus (caldari or not). maelstorm does. it would not make any sense at ALL for it to have less mids then raven, and ONLY make sense for it to have more. This is actually quite a common game design trick. Mid slots can be used for many purposes. If you want to make a ship good in one of those purposes, you have two options, more slots, or a bonus. Giving it more slots lets it be better at any of the purposes, as the pilot can choose whatever module to fit there. Give it a bonus to make those mid slots more effective at a specific thing, and you succeed in making it good in that thing without letting it be good in the other mid-slot uses. At level 4, the shield boost amount bonus would be the equivalent of fitting a shield boost amp. Which means you effectively have one more "slot" in your shield tank, even though you don't have the actual slot on the ship. BTW, to everyone using the currently available data extract on the new ships to work fittings and moan etc, I will reiterate a very important part of the blog: Originally by: tux blog Some of you have gotten hold of some preliminary stats on the ships; those are severely outdated and have already changed. Which means that working up setups, and moaning about those stats is completely pointless. Those stats were not publically released by Tux, they were ripped from a version of the database on which the ships were still in testing and never intended to be used. So of course there are going to be things wrong in those stats. But I suppose it's too much to ask that people wait for the stats to be in a state where tux is willing to release them, rather than critise the painting based on the outline sketch. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.

Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.04 08:45:00 - [171] Im wondering how things will turn out. Will they just put the ships on the test server when they are happy with them? Because currently they seem to be testing them on the development server for themselfs. I feel time is running out for players to have their input on the final stats as we are approaching september fast. But I guess in the end, Tuxford and his team decides if they want our input or not. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate
Mr Bright	Posted - 2006.08.04 08:48:00 - [172] The problem is that we have seen to many times that "preliminary" or "placeholder" stats hits so close to the actual design that its not funny. Especially minmatar pilots sees this as yet another time that they draw the shortest straw. I mean, when Tuxford himself says: "Then again shield boost bonus isn't really terribly effective in fleets where you have potentially a lot of ships firing at you and damage output exceeds your tank's absorption by a wide margin. That's basically the reasoning for changing the Moa's shield boost bonus to resistance bonus originally." Now with that in mind look at the BC's which race got the "lesser" bonus? Is it so hard to understand that with that comment, and many other well arguemented posts here I might add, that we are trying to voice our critique now? Now Minmatar have: the lowest DPS less slots to tank mixed weaponsystems. long range weapons with abysmal tracking and lowest optimal As good things Mixed damage types: Tech2 ammo isn't varied at all, and most people dont have 4+ ammo types to pick and chose from. Higher speed: our BS's will loose that to the new gallente ship, just as our ceptors loose to caldari Good falloff (sadly this cannot be boosted as optimal range can so I would say on long range weapons at least that optimal is better since you can boost it with modules) High alpha strike (which is wicked and very very good) Now go through all of that, and tell me if you can understand why some people who have sticked with minmatar feel a bit cheated. Especially if you have large artillery/autocannon spec (which takes much longer to get than torp/cruise spec). All in all, it seems minmatar is the last of the 4 when they make ships Sarcasm below this line: CCP: lets see whats left to do, oh yes the minmatar how could I forget, what should we give them for a 2nd bonus... hmm thats tough, I know, how about that bonus we discarded for caldari - lets give them that.
Darius Shakor Minmatar Freelance Unincorporated Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2006.08.04 09:30:00 - [173] Originally by: Darius Shakor Quote: Maelstrom med slots, the argument I've seen so far is that it needs at least 3 slots for speed mod, webbie and a scrambler, anything less than 4 slots is too little to tank with. I recognize that logic but we intend the Maelstrom to be a shield tanking artillery boat, relying on other ships to tackle for you. Then again shield boost bonus isn't really terribly effective in fleets where you have potentially a lot of ships firing at you and damage output exceeds your tank's absorption by a wide margin. That's basically the reasoning for changing the Moa's shield boost bonus to resistance bonus originally. So..... did you change it then? Because that tells me nothing and I really hope to see a good Minmatar ship before I die. You say it is made for fleets where people will tackle, and you say the bonus is no good for fleets, and you say thats why a Moa got a change to its bonus. Who cares about the Moa though, we are talking about the Maelstrom here. Million Dollar Question Does this mean you will keep it as it is, effectively useless in any role, or have you changed it? Resposting in the hopes that Tux will provide an answer. Is it getting changed then or are you saying we have to like it or lump it? ------ Shakor Clan Information Portal http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=3
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2006.08.04 10:36:00 - [174] Originally by: Jim McGregor Im wondering how things will turn out. Will they just put the ships on the test server when they are happy with them? Because currently they seem to be testing them on the development server for themselfs. Well, keeping it to the dev server means that tux can get away with hacking up ship variants with whatever stats he likes to compare, which gives a lot more flexibility until the values are fairly nailed down. Putting them out to Sisi is much less flexible. Originally by: Jim McGregor I feel time is running out for players to have their input on the final stats as we are approaching september fast. But I guess in the end, Tuxford and his team decides if they want our input or not. The Dragon patch isn't even in a releasable state yet, and proper testing on Kali1 can't begin until the dragon patch is out. I wouldn't expect Dragon to get to TQ until the start of sept, pushing Kali1 back to at least october. I'd say we have a couple more months until these ships see light on TQ. And the nice thing about ship stats is that they're one of the easier things to change, so they don't need to get locked down until very late in the day. Originally by: Mr Bright The problem is that we have seen to many times that "preliminary" or "placeholder" stats hits so close to the actual design that its not funny. And we've also seen many that were hilariously far off. There had been stats for "titans" in the database since Castor (possibly before, I wasn't there to know), but what actually came out as titans bore very little resemblance to that. Besides, the "placeholder" stats that have generally been fairly accurate have been gleaned from a Sisi database running a fairly close to release version. Currently Sisi isn't even running the same code branch that these ships are going to be released in, let alone a near-release version of it. Oh, and Tux knows what stats we have access too. He knows what his current design stats are. So when he says that the stats we can see are both old and different to the ones he's currently working with, I'm inclined to believe him. Filling the boards with thousands of complaints based on stats which we know are outdated and different to the current design won't help anything. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Tachy	Posted - 2006.08.04 11:00:00 - [175] The Chinese server is already running on Dragon Code. Tux is on holiday iirc. There wasn't much input the devs took from the player base when it came to designing or adjusting Minmatar ships in the past. Ships that made it to Tranquility normally are changed when the next batch of balancing work is done, with the Minmatar getting what didn't quite work for any of the other race's ships. (Drone cruiser? Missile frigate? Painting bonus? Missed in missile and drone nerf? Speed nerf? SP requirements for okay ship efficiency? Fast ships with horrible weapon system tracking? Missing storylines? Missing missions? Missing explanations for fubar standing changes? Broken offers? ...) Stats and bugs from SiSi normally make it unchanged to Tranquility unless they're good for killing the market or the server. --==*-- Even with nougat, you can have a perfect moment.
arbitrary Bad luck Clover Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.04 11:19:00 - [176] The maelstrom is pure meh' for me; too bad they are screwing over the tempest as well oh well lets hope for a miracle and that balance will be found on SiSi. Though it will be safer for me to consider where my loyalties lie when it comes to ships. ___ Arbi all I want is for you to smile.
Druid R Murder of Crows	Posted - 2006.08.04 13:45:00 - [177] you will need 7 mids on a mael even if it isnt for speed etc cause u will need sensor boosters if it is to be used as fleet arty alpha ship as they seem to think. plus 4 for a tank is a bit shy. booster amp 3x hardnertype modules injector Dru. Welcome to the hijacked sig club. YARRR!!!11!one -Kaemonn I wanters, aren't getters. ohh. Oops. -Capsicum
Wan Nathiil	Posted - 2006.08.04 13:48:00 - [178] Originally by: Infinity Ziona I think a lot of people forgot that these ships are not meant to be 'Better' then the current BS's in the game. Why shouldn't the new ships be better than the old ones?? Then what's the point of making something new? if you think progression, then new ships SHOULD be better, that's the whole idea of making something new, it's called progression. We'd still be traveling in steam locomotives if it werent for progress, and making things better..
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2006.08.04 14:29:00 - [179] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 04/08/2006 14:28:53 Originally by: Wan Nathiil We'd still be traveling in steam locomotives if it werent for progress, and making things better.. so..how many steam locomotives are still in use compared to modern trains?
Jim McGregor Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.04 14:37:00 - [180] Edited by: Jim McGregor on 04/08/2006 14:41:12 Originally by: Wan Nathiil Originally by: Infinity Ziona I think a lot of people forgot that these ships are not meant to be 'Better' then the current BS's in the game. Why shouldn't the new ships be better than the old ones?? Then what's the point of making something new? if you think progression, then new ships SHOULD be better, that's the whole idea of making something new, it's called progression. We'd still be traveling in steam locomotives if it werent for progress, and making things better.. Actually you are confusing tech 1/2 with tier 1/2/3 here. New tech = better, new tier = different role. The devs are trying to not replace older ships so they are useless, and its working pretty good so far. For example: Vexor and Thorax. Both are really good and Thorax doesnt replace the Vexor. --- Eve Wiki \| Eve Tribune \| Eve Pirate



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