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The aftermath of the EIB scam...

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 4 post(s)
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:37:00 - [181] So, for someone not paying attention who doesn't want to read the whole forum, what's going on?
Kieli Rast	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:45:00 - [182] Dentara Rast/Cally/me just scammed 790 billion isk
Mung Lore Supero Omnia	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:48:00 - [183] Edited by: Mung Lore on 20/08/2006 16:50:33 Edited by: Mung Lore on 20/08/2006 16:49:31 Dentara Rast is Pete Wilson as stated in the video Kal D'vogh is Cally as stated by Pete Wilson Cally Is Dentara Rast and Kal D'vogh is Dentara Rast 5 min sum up 1) Cally stated EIB 2) A few months later, when on a trip 2) 2 weeks after that, was in a bus cras 3) Then he died 4) then he came back from the dead and said EIB was a scam, there was a video but can't place were it is... (bio) 5) now everyone is saying oh well so it happened aain and now Currin Trading is on a ego trip (kinda not) becouse he called it 2 months ago. commming soon! The Wallstreet for eve.
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.20 16:55:00 - [184] Just a little something odd for you Mr. Dentara Rast has been boasting about his wealth for a few months now, did no one ask where it came from? : http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=356791
Obaspacula	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:03:00 - [185] What a ego maniac. Linkage
Eschwen Gas Giant Industries	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:28:00 - [186] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/08/2006 12:27:03 Originally by: Gaius Sejanus Quote: Through his investment with EMFI he in fact does have his own personal money invested in the EIB, No, he has his money invested in EMFI. Quote: and therefore his claim of having "zero EIB shares" is false. Your definition of owning a share could stand some revision. EMFI works just like a mutual fund in the real world. Investing in a mutual fund does not give you stock ownership. You do not, for example, have the right to vote with your stock because you DO NOT OWN ANY STOCK. Correct. From what I've heard, EMFI has some very good plans in place to deal with the problem even if Kal doesn't refund investors their money as Dentara said he would. I'm not worried. Fair enough. DS gave his money to someone else so they could invest it in the EIB. Which of course means that DS didn't invest in the EIB and has no financial stake in it. Because someone else did it. With his money. Gotcha.
Shassandra Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:33:00 - [187] Originally by: Obaspacula What a ego maniac. Linkage I really like this movie actually. Great music!
Matori Kar	Posted - 2006.08.20 17:51:00 - [188] Originally by: Obaspacula What a ego maniac. Linkage Am pretty sure this is old..
Indomitus Rex Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2006.08.20 18:32:00 - [189] Originally by: Obaspacula Originally by: Indomitus Rex All I have to say is. . .told ya so. For anyone that saved money because they listened to me, a nice ISK donation would be very welcome. And for Argenton, DS, and the rest of you half-wits. . .have fun eatin' crow. I always find it intelligent when someone thinks their crapshot guess was any better then anyone else's they deserve a reward. Yeah, maybe because my crapshot guess was WAY before anyone else's and I backed it up with logical arguments. Any person with an average IQ could see that the possibility for the EIB to be a scam was HUGE. I love how we had all these forum warriors coming out defending Cally and all IPOs in general. Nevermind the fact that all but maybe 3 IPOs have been scams. I also was the one saying that Dentara and others were just alts of Cally coming to EIB's defense. That was fairly obvious too tho so no big thing there. So, again. . .the IPO market is BROKEN. It's crap. If you value your ISK do something else with it, otherwise you're just passing it off to some tool who will then think it's uber-cool to make a video of himself to brag. Deutschland.
Halkin Caldari Euphoria Released Euphoria Unleashed	Posted - 2006.08.20 18:36:00 - [190] Edited by: Halkin on 20/08/2006 18:37:02
Obaspacula	Posted - 2006.08.20 18:56:00 - [191] Originally by: Indomitus Rex Yeah, maybe because my crapshot guess was WAY before anyone else's and I backed it up with logical arguments. Any person with an average IQ could see that the possibility for the EIB to be a scam was HUGE. I love how we had all these forum warriors coming out defending Cally and all IPOs in general. Nevermind the fact that all but maybe 3 IPOs have been scams. I also was the one saying that Dentara and others were just alts of Cally coming to EIB's defense. That was fairly obvious too tho so no big thing there. So, again. . .the IPO market is BROKEN. It's crap. If you value your ISK do something else with it, otherwise you're just passing it off to some tool who will then think it's uber-cool to make a video of himself to brag. Asides from your "I told you so" finger wagging, I agree with you.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:15:00 - [192] Originally by: Eschwen Fair enough. DS gave his money to someone else so they could invest it in the EIB. Which of course means that DS didn't invest in the EIB and has no financial stake in it. Because someone else did it. With his money. Gotcha. If it doesn't affect my wallet whether EIB lived or died, I have no stake in it. You can spin that all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:16:00 - [193] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 20/08/2006 20:16:30 Originally by: Indomitus Rex I love how we had all these forum warriors coming out defending Cally and all IPOs in general. Nevermind the fact that all but maybe 3 IPOs have been scams. If I recall correctly, only 2 out of ~15-20 IPOs ever listed on the EGSE were scams. Since the average return is quite high (50-100% or more), the risk is acceptable. In fact, without the risk, the reward wouldn't be that high. --[23] Member-- Originally by: DB Preacher The only time BoB's backs are to the wall is when Backdoor Bandit is in local.
vyperpit Gallente Yes no maybe - i dont know	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:21:00 - [194] any body who is stupid enough not to know how to invest their own money should loose it, what happened here was someone smarter than you lot took your isk. all i can say is good job. one other thing all should note, time is a factor in eve ipos , they may not be scams to start with, but given enough time someone will run away with your isk take ur moneys out of all shares, and run. maybe invest your own isk
Fitzmaurice Wildly Unsuccessful Pacifists	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:25:00 - [195] I have attempted to transcribe the video for those of you who are non-native English speakers and are having trouble with the accent. Of course, I'm a Canadian, so I may have got some of it wrong. There are a few parts with question marks (??) when I really cannot tell what CallyRast is saying. Thanks to Naphtalia for making this a PG-13 version, so that I can post the link here. At least, I think I will be able to. EIB Confession I cannot figure out the word wrap for eve-files. When I uploaded it, it was word-wrapped. My recommendation is to download it, and then put it in WordPad and wrap it there. Cheers!
Soviet Bear Caldari	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:45:00 - [196] That is quite a staggering amount of ISK. Makes me almost happy to be a poor miner, far removed fro such dealings.
Eschwen Gas Giant Industries	Posted - 2006.08.20 20:50:00 - [197] Originally by: Dark Shikari Originally by: Eschwen Fair enough. DS gave his money to someone else so they could invest it in the EIB. Which of course means that DS didn't invest in the EIB and has no financial stake in it. Because someone else did it. With his money. Gotcha. If it doesn't affect my wallet whether EIB lived or died, I have no stake in it. You can spin that all you want, but that doesn't change the facts. So, by this logic, anyone who lost money through direct ownership of EIBI stock but who also maintains a diversified personal portfolio that will (in time) cover the EIB loss essentially had no stake? There's no spin here, Dark. Your position is protected through diversity, thanks to EMFI's holdings. Any smart investor, in Eve or in the real world, is going to do the very same thing. Just because a loss is going to be covered by other earnings over time doesn't mean you didn't have a stake.
Dagam Dagam Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 22:46:00 - [198] Edited by: Dagam on 20/08/2006 22:55:44 I don't see why Dentara Rast with his 800 billion isk, and the billionaires he stole from with much less isk, is somehow a more just distribution of wealth than a distribution in which he didn't scam. If anything, scamming makes it more unjust if not unaffected. I don't see why a rich person deserves being scammed from more than a poor person. If scamming is wrong, it's wrong no matter if the victim is rich or poor. If scamming is okay (like you argue), it's okay to steal from someone who just started the game and doesn't know any better; because he was scammed, he deserved to lose it.
babyblue	Posted - 2006.08.20 22:54:00 - [199] Edited by: babyblue on 20/08/2006 22:56:46 Originally by: Argenton Sayvers And i think that most of what you said has no relation to this discussion. Some forms of betrayel of trust are bad for the game. YOu undock, and CONCORD randomly blows you to pieces. "Lolz pwned, your fault". You have to trust game mechanics, else it becomes rather pointless. I don't agree. What you are suggesting on a really basic level is that when I get out of bed in the morning I "trust" that gravity will pull my feet to the floor. That isn't trust, unless you want to start an Epistemological debate, which I'm sure you don't. Originally by: Argenton Sayvers BUT this entire scam was not a case of basic trust. We are talking about a bank here. Were people sent out money to someone else, out of their own free will. In the hopes of getting more money back. We are not talking about newbs, we are talking about billionaires. Yes I agree (I didn't invest in EIB). Most people who play the stock market here do so because they don't have the time or inclination to make their ISK work for them and don't want to blow it up in PvP and also they may consider a working stock market is a good thing. It gives companies the chance to generate capital for grand plans or business ideas and it can give investors profits. In theory, it should benefit all of us. But everyone knows the value of stocks can rise as well as fall and everyone knows that every IPO is a possible scam. I'm not suggesting it should be risk free. IRL the only relatively risk free investments are government bonds and they don't pay out so well. Originally by: Argenton Sayvers Those kinds of people who knew how to make a fortune. Thats what people ment when they mention Darwinism. Someone who gives his billions to a scammer doesnt deserve them in the first place. The scammer is just correcting the obviously injust distribution of wealth. No that isn't true at all. Fortune making in Eve happens through chance (BPO lottery), or through hard work (mining, building) or having a good eye in the markets (trading). Only one of those you could argue was an unjust distribution of wealth. Ironically, if unjust distibutions are a problem, we now have one of the most unjust distributions you could possibly think of (the scammers profit). As for Darwinism, I do not agree with the "you deserve all that you get" concept. It's just a difference in the way I see the world (and in game). I also don't think that Social Darwinism can tell you what kind of people it's selecting. It's much more complicated than "you are an idiot investor" or "you are a clever scammer". For example, there are some very clever people indeed who get scammed and have been (DS for instance) in the past. What would social darwinism say about that? Possibly it would say that you are selecting out trusting people and selecting in deceitful people, who are much more likely to be able to spot a scam. Originally by: Argenton Sayvers And you try to twist it into yet another "good looking females are to blame when they get ravaged". We are not talking about people who steal dried bread from starving childred. We are pod pilotes. Far and above the common man. Even the poorest of us has more then a village or even a planet. Stealing sounds a lot less evil when its about gold watches from spoiled brats, all of the sudden. No I'm not saying that at all. What I object to is the idea that Eve is a game where you try to screw over as many people as possible for as much as possible. Some people seem to think thats the whole point, while others prefer to try to build something or do something positive (in the abstract, because it's only a game after all). There is a fundamental problem in Eve trying to allow both of these views to co-exist. It needs balance. At the moment there are some missing mechanisms to allow that balance. There are also some overbearing mechanisms in place in other respects that put a sticking plaster over basic design problems.
Ghoest	Posted - 2006.08.20 23:05:00 - [200] The sleazebag is currently at Vuorrassi V - Moon 13 - Ishukone Corporation Factory station in the Mito constellation of Lonetrek region. Wherever you went - here you are.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.20 23:09:00 - [201] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 20/08/2006 23:16:05 You are taking my words far to literally. There is no just distribution, neither eve nor RL. Wealth doesnt affect how leet you are, just how rich ;) As for "wrong". Most people in eve dont care about "academical" wrong. So you have a lot less supporters rallying to your cause. I say that the "evil" thing about this scam was the sick forum drama. Thats a complaint i could actually understand. We already had a situation where the eve community showed what it thought of rich people making mistakes, then getting bailed out. Dentara is not a "good guy", and all this forum drama doesnt really make me think highly of him. But compassion for billionaires? how do you think i made my money? Do you really think grinding level 4 missions is a "honorable" achievement? And thats about the only "honest hardworking" way to make billions, everything else involves ripping people off. I think this scam was lame - and for some reason, he didnt actually steal anything worth having for me, even though he could. It would be interesting to see what i would have thought of scammers when i actually lost 20b, not some couple hundred mil pocket change. He already had them. He gave them back. edit: Babyblue, last post has some interesting arguments, but the forums are messed up beyond reason right now. I will try to answer at a later point in time.
HippoKing Caldari Beagle Corp	Posted - 2006.08.20 23:13:00 - [202] Originally by: Dagam I don't see why Dentara Rast with his 800 billion isk, and the billionaires he stole from with much less isk, is somehow a more just distribution of wealth than a distribution in which he didn't scam. If anything, scamming makes it more unjust if not unaffected. I don't see why a rich person deserves being scammed from more than a poor person. If scamming is wrong, it's wrong no matter if the victim is rich or poor. If scamming is okay (like you argue), it's okay to steal from someone who just started the game and doesn't know any better; because he was scammed, he deserved to lose it. Well, I haven't been scammed. I haven't been scammed because I know what I am doing, and I don't invest my ISK (these are two seperate points, I don't mean to say that people who invest don't know what they are doing). Knowing what I am doing prevents me getting scammed via escrow, via trading or any of the other myriad scams abound in eve. This gives me no gain or loss but not getting scammed. Not investing means that I don't take the risk of investing my money in another player in the hope of it being returned with interest. A lot of people have made a lot of ISK on investments. I am not one of them, because I didn't do it (apart from investing in the ISS marginis early on, while I was a member). This means I have missed out on profits, where others have receieved. On the other hand, I haven't lost anything to thes scammers, because I wasn't vulnerable to it. I made the decision not to take the risk, and I stand by it. I lost nothing, where others lost everything. This is why it is OK to scam. No-one gets scammed through no action of their own. You have to either **** up yourself (escrow/trading scams) or take a gamble on giving trust (investments, corp thieves). When you mess up, it is pure darwinism that you lose out. When you mis-allocate trust, that is your choice. You take a risk on the basis that you think you will profit in the end. If you don't, you know you made that choice.
Fitzmaurice Wildly Unsuccessful Pacifists	Posted - 2006.08.20 23:19:00 - [203] Originally by: Argenton Sayvers You are taking my words far to literally. There is no just distribution, neither eve nor RL. Wealth doesnt affect how leet you are, just how rich ;) As for "wrong". Most people in eve dont care about "academical" wrong. So you have a lot less supporters rallying to your cause. I say that the "evil" thing about this scam was the sick forum drama. Thats a complaint i could actually understand. We already had a situation where the eve community showed what it thought of rich people making mistakes, then getting bailed out. Dentara is not a "good guy", and all this forum drama doesnt really make me think highly of him. But compassion for billionaires? how do you think i made my money? Do you really think grinding level 4 missions is a "honorable" achievement? And thats about the only "honest hardworking" way to make billions, everything else involves ripping people off. I think this scam was lame - and for some reason, he didnt actually steal anything worth having for me, even though he could. It would be interesting to see what i would have thought of scammers when i actually lost 20b, not some couple hundred mil pocket change. He already had them. He gave them back. I think babyblue makes a lot of sense tbh. But I agree that this is more of an academic discussion. Right and wrong in a game is not the same as real life. How can it be? However, it does bear some thought as the usual response in these threads (not from you here Argenton) is "LOLZ...he PWNED you!!1!...serves you right for investing...you're an idiot!" There is more to it than that. One of the reasons why I advocated that CCP should make some changes in the wake of SVE is that I thought that the community had actually worked pretty hard to suss out whether it was a scam or not. They did not work hard enough, this is true, but they tried. And they failed because ultimately the infrastructure is not there to make a full and complete finding on any corp in EvE. I am interested, Argenton, in something that you have made an oblique reference to twice that I recall. Would you care to elaborate on getting 20 Billion back? I am confused as to what you mean by this. Of course, if you don't want to say, that's fine. But you have brought it up more than once, and it might be interesting to help further frame this scam in context of how it was done. And to what extent it reached, or could have reached.
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2006.08.20 23:36:00 - [204] Just some quick notes, as i am really fed up with forums (the mechanics, the content got better): 1. I sold a pilgrim BPO to Cally a while ago. I still have all the logs. The deal involved 25b, but Cally claimed that he doesnt have that much ISK (all tied up in buy orders) but a lot of it would become liquid in 2 weeks. So i agreed to sell for 5b + EIB shares (huge amount, maybe 20-30b when sold at "market value") and exchange the shares for 20b a while later. I got the shares first, then traded the BPO for 5b. After asking cally a couple times, i actually got 15b, and 5b sometimes later. I accidently sent all the shares the first time, when i got 15b, and Cally gave me the remaining 5b without me holding any form of collateral. The lengthy conversation involved trust, and GMs refunding scams ;) 2. Hippos post roughly reflects my views on this topic, so you can discuss it until the forums start to work again ;)
Etien Jeins Gallente University of Caille	Posted - 2006.08.20 23:52:00 - [205] Time to change the rules and ban Cally & Alts Co' This will read EVE of one scumbag, and will rid eve of 750 Billion ISK in one shot. Great ISk sink IMo. The only way in my opinion, is to ban all his accounts, every single one of them. EULA says that CCP can do anything with our accounts and items at any time. This deserves a banstick, I dont care about fair or no fair, this whole thing is ridiculous. He has no legal recourse if he gets banned, since everything is property of CCP. Scaming is ok to some point, scaming on this scale can and will break the game, because the playerbase will feel unprotected or cared for. All arguments aside about being stupid, investing or not investing, he has to be banned or EVE will loose players. [Hi, I am an exclamation mark! What's your name? And no, I am not a Goon ALT]
Kage Getsu Lordless	Posted - 2006.08.21 00:03:00 - [206] Should I be amused or disturbed that there are that many billions worth of morons in this universe? _________________________________________________________
DrakeStone Celestial Horizon Corp. Ascendant Frontier	Posted - 2006.08.21 01:08:00 - [207] Originally by: Kage Getsu Should I be amused or disturbed that there are that many billions worth of morons in this universe? I was just thinking the same thing about your sig.
Vordalak Amarr Low Grade Ore	Posted - 2006.08.21 02:56:00 - [208] All I have to say is 2 things. Do not ever give anyone anything and expect to see it again. Fools and their iskies are soon parted. ---------------------------------------------- "Cry fowl and let slip the dogs of war" If you want trouble, you found the right spacer. Don't cry when it's over.
Mathias Black	Posted - 2006.08.21 04:27:00 - [209] This is hilarious. It's not the scam itself that I find most hilarious, but the fact that all the people who fell for it and yelled incessantly at Currin are now posting "Well of course I knew all along it was probably a scam. You're just misinterpereting my 7 billion posts where I defended Cally." Well, if one good thing comes out of this, I hope it's another nail in the coffin of the idea that people who post all day on the boards are somehow more trustworthy than all us exclamation points. (Today I hope I can be called an alt of Dentara rather than Currin.)
Funky Witherbean	Posted - 2006.08.21 04:36:00 - [210] I think its' pretty sad how much people are willing to get behind lowlifes. I didn't lose anything, but I'm not going to applaud antisocial acts done by worthless people. I have no admiration for Cally or Currin whatsoever, and don't even think that proving that it is easy to take advantage of people's trust is a very original or difficult trick. I really hope that the people applauding never have a real-life encounter with someone that takes pleasure from hurting others- because it's really not as cool as you seem to think. And while I agree that- thank god- it IS a video game, you'd have to be stupid not to believe that cally's player has shown his true character. People tend to confuse luck with skill or insight. I could make a bunch of alts, and take both sides of every major issue that arises for the next six months, and end up with a few characters with a "perfect track record". It wouldn't mean anything. What counts is the dedication and quality of thought that people put into taking their positions. So- DS and EMFI are still much higher on the totem pole than many people popping in to say "I told you so". So I'm not going to go into a panic and refuse to trust anyone. I won't refuse to invest in well thought out companies, because the opportunity to run a company makes the game fun for some, and in cases like ISS, really adds to the sense of community and place. I'm not going to decide that there is some profound lesson here- because I knew that people like Cally existed before his little video. I won't, in other words, let Cally's player have any impact on me. And I hope that most of you don't either. People like Cally want to turn our world into something as depressing and hopeless as their lives. Don't let them define your world. I also don't buy the whole "social darwinism" thing. Criminals are not performing some social service by stealing from people that don't lock their doors. People wouldn't NEED to lock their doors without criminals. The argument social engineers make is that people should never trust each other, and that they are just demonstrating that. But you NEED trust for a society to work, so we're stuck with it. Social Engineers just exploit an unfixable flaw in the social contract for personal gain.

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